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- [00:01]
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- [00:32]
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- [01:03]
Jen
You're crazy.
- [01:14]
Nick Viall
Jen and Zach, welcome to the Vile Files.
- [01:17]
Jen
Thank you for having me.
- [01:18]
Zach
Thanks for having us. Stoked to be here.
- [01:20]
Nick Viall
Welcome back, Jen.
- [01:21]
Jen
I'm back, guys.
- [01:22]
Nick Viall
Welcome. Zach, how are you?
- [01:24]
Zach
Fine. Finally made it. Stoked to be here.
- [01:25]
Nick Viall
Okay. We're very stoked to have you. So I want, I'm all about upfront expectations. Kind of like set the stage of what we can expect this interview. Watching season two, obviously you didn't finish season two, but I was really, you know, taken back by your relationship and specifically you, Zach. And so I was really just kind of fascinated with the relationship. You guys have been through a lot as a family, both you two with the show and the relationships with the women, your extended families. There's a lot there. So I would love to focus a lot of this conversation and just kind of getting to know you two as people and your relationship. I want to talk about Zach, your growth, or at least what I perceive to be some growth on, on your part. And then we'll, we'll get into the show a little bit. I, I'm really been kind of fascinated by you guys, if that's okay. If that sounds good with you guys.
- [02:21]
Jen
In fact, I think we would love that even more because I feel like not a lot of people know who we actually are and everyone just likes to talk about like Chippendales and.
- [02:31]
Zach
Sure.
- [02:31]
Jen
You know the crazy thing.
- [02:33]
Zach
Chippendales, the two things that like follow us no matter what.
- [02:36]
Jen
Yes. So we actually.
- [02:39]
Nick Viall
But we'll ask it. No, but like. But yeah, I mean, you're right because to that end you Know what I really love about this particular show, going deeper, is the ability to get more of the context, to dive deep, deeper, you know, into these relationships and you guys as characters, it's like a blessing and a curse, this show is. I don't know how you feel about it, Zach, but I. It's my favorite show on tv.
- [03:01]
Zach
I'm warming up to it.
- [03:03]
Nick Viall
You women give so much of your lives. You're, you're, you're so vulnerable. I think, you know, as fans of reality tv, and I say this as someone who's been on it before, you know, it's. And we do, we go on the show, especially our reality recap episodes, and we watch these shows and we snark and we, we criticize and we make fun, and that's kind of part of the gig. You know, it's like, I'm a sports fan too, right? Like, part of being a sports fan is short for fanatic. So we watch this stuff so that we can talk about it with our friends and break it down and talk shit and get into it. But when it comes to reality tv, you know, I think we sometimes forget about the people who are behind the cameras and, you know, certainly there's an edit and things like that. But the blessing, what we get to do here in the Vile Files and going deeper is the opportunity to get to know the people and understand, you know, a little more context about what we are watching on these shows. And so I, I thank you guys for coming and showing up because clearly you guys have been a couple that's been highly scrutinized in the first two seasons and, and clearly it's been a lot. So I, I first would like to start with just Jen, like, how are you doing mentally? You had to leave season two. I, I don't know where we are in terms of, of coming back. And I imagine you probably can't answer that anyway, so I'm not going to press you. But as we sit here today, how is your mental health and how are you doing with your.
- [04:26]
Jen
Yeah, I'm doing way better now. Physically, I'm not the best right now because I am in the third trimester and the third trimester is rough. But yeah, no, season two. Season one and season two was really hard on me. And yeah, like, we, we watched season one and immediately started filming season two right after. So what you see in season two is basically just like what was actually happening and it just a lot to navigate. It's not every day that your relationship gets exposed to the whole world and, yeah, I'm like, I don't even know where to start.
- [05:10]
Zach
Just how you're doing right now.
- [05:12]
Jen
I'm like, yeah, well, right now I'm doing great.
- [05:14]
Zach
Wait, let me tell you.
- [05:16]
Jen
Yeah, six months ago, I was not doing okay, but through therapy and taking time for myself and focusing on my mental health, I'm in a way better place now.
- [05:28]
Nick Viall
So how did you guys decide as a couple and what ultimately led to the decision for you guys to take a leave of absence? I don't know if that's what it's called from the show, but basically leave the show. And at least. At least for the time being, put a pause on your being a part of Mom Talk in Mormon Lives.
- [05:47]
Jen
Yeah, it kind of. I feel like starting season two, I was already dealing with a lot, and I kind of just showed up just wanting to be vulnerable and sharing the truth, because that's the whole reason why I started or wanted to be on reality TV in the first place, was I want to be vulnerable. I wanted to do the hard thing and sharing my story. Obviously, I didn't expect season one to turn out the way that it did, but I have always been that way. I've always wanted to do the scary thing, and coming back was the scary thing. And unfortunately, it didn't end well. We were going through a lot. And then you see in season two that I find out that I'm pregnant, and it just became too much. And sometimes, like, that happens in life. And for me, I. It was kind of like the last straw. And I. I feel like I spent a lot of time suffering, but not really vocalizing that. And it got to a point where it was just too much. And I said, you know what? I think I need to take a step back. And the. If it wasn't for the pregnancy, I don't think I would have done that, because at that point, it no longer just became about me. It became about this baby and protecting this baby. And so I really needed to do that. And, yeah, I learned so much. This has been the most impactful pregnancy journey that I've experienced, and I'm grateful how everything turned out. It's obviously going to be really hard watching back season two. We still haven't watched it, but there's just so much to learn. And I feel like my purpose in life is just learning from all experiences. You can learn in life. And through that, I hope to progress as a better version of myself. And I obviously have made a lot of mistakes. I think we all have. But I think that's just part of the journey.
- [07:51]
Mikayla
What was the hardest part about ending season one, going straight into season two? Was it everything that had happened in Vegas? Was it all of the women's kind of reaction to what had happened and them, you know, kind of giving their opinions on your relationship? Or at that point, had you even heard the public's opinion on your marriage?
- [08:11]
Jen
I think it was both. I think we went through a lot after Vegas, and, yeah, it was. It was really hard having the whole world vocalize their opinions. And I. I think there was a lot of truth that came out after Vegas that I think we both didn't realize was happening in our relationship because of what was traditionally taught to us. And it made us take a step back and kind of look in the mirror, and anyone who's gone through issues in their marriage, it's. It's not easy, like, when you go through a hard patch, and there can be a lot of factors, but. And in this case, it wasn't just like, oh, we're going to marriage counseling. It was like, it was so much more magnified because our whole life had been exposed. And so, yeah, maybe you can.
- [09:01]
Zach
Yeah, I feel like you've done a lot of PR Training. You've got really good answers to all this stuff. What I don't. I'm just gonna, like, speak my truth and my reality and probably be a little bit more. Yeah, just straight up about, like, what we went through. We went through hell, to be honest. Season one had a lot of ups and downs, and unfortunately, just kind of how it worked out was it only showed a lot of the negative. And not to say that there wasn't a lot of things that needed to change in our marriage, but unfortunately, you didn't get to see some of the other awesome sides of our marriage. And so I was in the middle of medical school, and season one comes out, and there was so many emotions we have. I had family and friends reaching out to me, being like, why are you married to her? You should leave her. She has the whole world saying, why are you married to this crazy narcissist? You should leave him. We're just trying to tune out the noise and fight for our family and be like, we know why we got married in the first place, trying to get back to those things. We have these two beautiful kids that we want to fight for. Obviously, two healthy houses are better than one toxic one, but we knew that we could work through this. And so I just made the decision that, like. And I was telling Nick this the other day, that just. I. I decided to step away from medical school. Like, there was no way I was gonna do medical school and support Jen in her career. And so I decided I'm gonna step away from this, and I'm gonna fight for my family. I'm gon my wife and try to make the changes I need to. To be the person that she deserves. And that took a lot of therapy, a lot of ups and downs. And we're not perfect. Like, to be completely transparent with you, we got in a huge fight last night because we're married, and that. That happens sometimes. I think the difference is we now have some skills and the ability to communicate in a different way and just the way we navigate that, and we're more of a team now. But, yeah, we were going through a ton season one, and there was a lot that led that was never shown. There's a lot of resentment on my end and a lot of miscommunication on Jen's end, and it just kind of led to this massive explosion, which was, unfortunately, the biggest fight in our marriage. And I'm embarrassed for how I acted, but it is what it is, and, like, we just have to keep moving forward and fighting for each other each day.
- [11:12]
Jen
And you'll also see that in season two. Like, you'll see, like, my imperfections, because. Right. Well, like, I wasn't. I. I thought, like, after Vegas, like, oh, I'm perfect. Like, he's the one with issues. And it wasn't until, like, after season two and going to therapy, where I was like, oh, I've got issues, too. I've. I've got flaws that I need to work on too, and that's.
- [11:33]
Nick Viall
Well, I want to unpack all of this, but I do want to rewind a little bit and just kind of, like, start at the beginning and, like, how did you guys meet, for one. I'd love to hear that quick story. And then I would love to know how you guys decided as a couple to be a part of Mom Talk and specifically, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, because I see the draw for you and the Mom Talk community and all the influencers, but you seem like the perception is you were never on board. You seem incredibly uncomfortable with this whole thing, and I'm just wondering, as a couple, how did you even agree in the first place to be a part of it?
- [12:08]
Mikayla
But first, how did y' all meet?
- [12:10]
Zach
Yeah, do you want me to tell the story?
- [12:11]
Jen
You're better at it.
- [12:12]
Zach
Okay.
- [12:13]
Jen
He's better at sharing.
- [12:14]
Zach
So there's a Mormon dating app called Mutual. It's kind of like Tinder, but it's just for Mormons. And I was moving after my freshman year of college. I just gotten back from my LDS mission to the Dominican Republic, and.
- [12:27]
Jen
And he was like, where the Latinas at?
- [12:29]
Zach
Yeah, I kind of got the Latina fever and was, like, looking for someone spicy. But anyways, I was on that app, and I was the first person that showed up on Jen's app. She, like, swiped up or whatever, and I sent her a message. And we actually met the night before I moved to Hawaii. And it was kind of a crazy story. I met her, didn't think much. Well, I actually texted her a few times and said, hey, can we go on a date? And, like, she ignored me. But I was like, this girl's super pretty. Like, I'm gonna shoot my shot again.
- [12:56]
Jen
Yeah. I was like. I was like, you're about to move to Hawaii and you want to hang out. Like, why else would you want to go? I was like, no, thanks.
- [13:04]
Zach
But she finally agreed to go on a date the night before I left to Hawaii. And so we went and we talked. And this sounds like, cheesy or corny to say, but it literally was the most significant night of my life. And I went home that night and I told my mom. I'm like, I just met my future wife. And she's like, you're sleep deprived. You're crazy. You're moving to Hawaii. You don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, I went and told my buddies at the airport, like, I just met my future wife. And they're like, dude, you're crazy. Like, what are you talking about? Anyways, I moved out to Hawaii.
- [13:34]
Nick Viall
Why are you moving to Hawaii?
- [13:36]
Zach
Just for fun, for the summer, to go surf with buddies. Yeah, we worked in a shop out there and just, yeah, love surfing. But anyways, while I was out there, the rule that I had with my buddies is that we weren't gonna date. Like, we weren't gonna let, like, girls ruin the summer. But I just. I don't know, I couldn't stop thinking about Jen. So after, like, two weeks, I was like, do you wanna come out here? She ended up coming out and we spent a bunch of time together. And then, yeah, we ended up dating. And then Jen was gonna go on an LDS mission after that, and she decided to not turn in her papers. She kind of gave me an ultimatum.
- [14:07]
Jen
She decided to go on a reality TV show instead.
- [14:09]
Zach
That was years later.
- [14:10]
Jen
Just kidding.
- [14:11]
Zach
Back then, she was gonn a mission and she said, I'm not going to go on a mission and I think we should get married. So I started saving up my money. I actually took a loan from my dad and bought a ring and proposed and we got married like 10 months later.
- [14:26]
Nick Viall
How long were you dating for before you got engaged?
- [14:28]
Jen
Eight months.
- [14:29]
Zach
Eight months and then got married?
- [14:31]
Jen
Nine months, which is actually a long time within most of my buddies.
- [14:36]
Zach
Most of my buddies were like, three months.
- [14:38]
Nick Viall
Yeah, I guess. Side conversation. I didn't. Maybe it's my ignorance, but I thought missions for. For LDS was primarily for young men. Is that. But I didn't realize women also go on missions. Or is it. Is it different than the missions you go on?
- [14:53]
Zach
No, it's 18 months, so it's six months shorter. It is primarily for men, but women can go. Like Whitney on the show. She went on a mission. I'd say like 20, 25% of women.
- [15:03]
Nick Viall
Is that relatively new for the church? Like, is it?
- [15:05]
Zach
No. Like, my mom. My mom went on a mission.
- [15:07]
Jen
Yeah.
- [15:08]
Zach
That's been going on for a long time.
- [15:10]
Jen
Yeah.
- [15:10]
Mikayla
The Mom Talk opportunity comes.
- [15:13]
Zach
Oh, yeah.
- [15:14]
Mikayla
How do we decide as a couple to do this show?
- [15:17]
Jen
Oh, I was all in. My manager told me about it. She's like, it was also. It was right after Taylor went to jail. And my manager called me and she's like, hey, they're like, recasting for this, like, Mormon wife show. Like, would you want to do it? And at first I was hesitant, of course, because everything that had happened with Taylor, I didn't know anyone from Mom Talk. And I was just kind of like, oh, like, I don't really know what this is about. And at that point, I was very at a stage in my life that I was trying to keep up with an image. I was trying to keep up with an image on my social media. And that's a big thing in the Mormon culture. Like, I do think there's this pressure to look perfect, be perfect. And I was just kind of like, ah, I don't know if, like, that would look good for my brand. Genuinely. I was thinking that, like, I don't know, like, what they're trying to do. And then they told me it would be called Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I was like, oh, like, they're, they're. And this was after the Mormon swinging. So of course I'm like, they're probably going to want to make that about that. But I. Before deciding, I had done the. The casting interview and they basically told me I got it and. And I was still Hesitant. But then I met up with the girls for the first time, and I was like, wait, I love this group. Like, I love these girls, and, yeah, the rest is history. And I kind of went in with just being, like, you know what? Like, I do think, just to be completely honest, like, being married to Zack, I did feel like I wanted to keep up with protecting our image, honestly, for, like, your family. He comes from, like, a very wealthy family who are pretty known within, like, your community. And, like, I. I did worry about, like, disappointing his family. And so there is that worry. But also, like, I've naturally always been vulnerable, and I've always wanted to share my story so that I went in with that. That mindset, and that still is my mindset. I just want to share my story. And even if that means I'm showing the ugly, like, then it is what it is.
- [17:34]
Nick Viall
What about you, Zach? How did you feel about her enthusiasm for the show?
- [17:38]
Zach
I feel like it's been, like, step by step. I've been able to be more and more vulnerable and open to this experience and what we're doing. I never wanted any of this, and I never planned on any of this, to be honest. But kind of what happened is Jen came to me and she said, hey, there's gonna be this reality TV show. It's gonna be called Mom Talk. I'm like, oh, that sounds kind of fun. What's it about? Then a few months later, they're like, oh, it's gonna be called Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I'm like, heck, no. No way I'm doing that. Like, that sounds.
- [18:05]
Jen
No, he didn't say, heck, no. He said, hell, no. He said, I'm out.
- [18:08]
Zach
Well, I don't think I was swearing at that point.
- [18:10]
Jen
Yeah.
- [18:13]
Zach
But, yeah. And then I heard, like, Taylor was gonna be on it. And I actually love Taylor and Dakota, but, like, at the time, I was being judgmental. I'm like, oh, I don't wanna be on a show with those guys. Like, that sounds crazy. And then, honestly, like, the day before contracts were due, like, Jen's manager reached out and was like, hey, we gotta get the contract signed. I'm like, I don't really wanna do this. Can Jen just do it and I'll just, like, not be part of this? Like, this just doesn't seem like me and something I'd want to do. And Jen just came to me and she's like, this is something I really want to do, and this is important to me. Like, I'm supporting you in medical school, and these Things that you want to do, like, will you support me in this? And so then once we made that decision as a team that we were going to do it, we really did go all. In season one, and we were so vulnerable, and we shared everything about our religion and our life and our marriage and just all these different things. And I honestly think we kind of went a little bit naive into the show, just not really knowing what to expect or what reality TV even is.
- [19:04]
Jen
Clearly, you get to episode seven, and I'm like, in Vegas, I'm like, what?
- [19:09]
Mikayla
What's going on here?
- [19:11]
Zach
But, yeah, and then, same thing. After season one, I was just like, oh, I don't want to do a season two. And Jen was like, I really want to do a season two. Like, this is what I want to do. And I'm, well, I love you, so I guess, yeah, let's do a season two.
- [19:24]
Nick Viall
Just as an aside, was it an option for you to do the show by yourself, or was the show saying, hey, we only want couples, and it's either the two of you or none of you?
- [19:36]
Jen
No, it was definitely an option for me to do it by myself, but I.
- [19:40]
Zach
Well, I don't. I think it could have been, but I think they were really interested in the dynamic of, like, these Mormon wives, like, with their husbands. And to be honest, the first season, there's a couple other couples that were somewhat active, but really, Jen and I were, like, the most active, strongest in the church at the time. And so I think they were really intrigued of that dynamic between, like, one.
- [19:59]
Jen
We both came from completely different families, and we're just completely different all around. And so that. Yeah, they loved that. That contrast between us, and clearly, that's still a controversy.
- [20:11]
Zach
Yeah. So I think they were super interested in seeing how we were both raised, how we ended up coming together, and just the dynamic of our relationship.
- [20:18]
Nick Viall
I want to unpack season one a little bit with the two of you, because if Whitney was villain number one, you were definitely villain number two.
- [20:27]
Zach
Well, here's. Here's the crazy thing. Right before the show came out, they asked all the girls who the villain is gonna be. No one said my name. Like, you know. Yeah. We didn't even really know what to expect, but I think I was maybe villain number one, honestly.
- [20:40]
Nick Viall
I'm sure you felt that. I felt.
- [20:41]
Zach
I felt that, but, yeah.
- [20:42]
Nick Viall
So. Well, either way, you were. You were not liked. I certainly know the feeling. So, you know, you're not alone in that.
- [20:49]
Cash App
But.
- [20:49]
Nick Viall
But, you know, just to be totally honest, you know what I Do love about this show is that, you know, again, it really gets into the weeds about relationships. It really unpacks a lot of very relatable issues that married couples have to deal with, whether it's religious trauma, whether it's just one person in the relationship wanting one thing, the other person, not, like, whether you want to go on the show or not. But there were some things on season one that just. It was hard to watch in terms of. You came across as a husband who seemed to only think of his own needs. You know, whether it was medical school, whether it was your gambling problem, it gave a lot of toxic masculinity, you know, if you will. And so, for one, I'd love to just hear from your point of view what you felt was maybe not fairly portrayed or accurate, but then I'd like to get into what you felt was accurate. And then I'd love to maybe unpack what changes you guys have made as a couple and more specifically, you as a husband and. And man.
- [21:55]
Zach
Yeah, there. There's a lot to unpack, I feel like. And that's what's so hard about this, is there is things that were true, that were portrayed, some, like, toxic tendencies that I had, and not to blame anyone else. Like, I was raised a certain way. The cult, the church has a certain culture, and I had just always kind of seen things one way, and it was hard for me to open up my mind to, like, our marriage looking different for me, acting different.
- [22:19]
Nick Viall
Could you elaborate on what?
- [22:20]
Zach
Yeah, I just. I think typically, and there's so many things I love about the church, One thing is it's like this idea of, like, the patriarchy or like. Like, the husband is like, the head of the house is just kind of how. How the church is, honestly. And not to say there's not a lot of great relationships in the church, but there is also a lot of toxic ones. And I just kind of always seen it as, like, the man's the one who provides, he's the one who makes the money, and the, like, the wife is the one who stays at home with the kids. And that's just kind of how it is. And so I think a lot of this was hard for me. It was hard for me to kind of, yeah, see things in a different way. And I feel like there was a lot of times early on in our marriage and on the show season one where I was selfish and I did think of myself, and it was kind of, what was Zach's priorities and what did he want to do? And I Think that's why season two, leaving medical school and finally putting Jen and her career first has been so healing for our marriage, is because it was the first time that I actually was thinking about her and kind of us more of a family than, like, what I wanted and what my plans were as far as. There was also a lot of things on the show that were said that, like, weren't true. As far as, like, me gambling away my medical school tuition. That never happened.
- [23:31]
Nick Viall
What's the truth?
- [23:32]
Zach
I hadn't even been accepted to medical school when that season was filmed, so I hadn't. There wasn't even a deposit to pay for school because I hadn't been accepted into a school yet. Okay. So a lot of those things that were said by the girls were hurtful and untrue and has led to a lot of backlash on social media, which has been really sad. And what was there?
- [23:51]
Nick Viall
Was there a savings or a. A nest egg or a fund that was allocated for medical school that you gambled away, or is there. Is that anything. Like, if the women hear this and they. And they hear you go, well, I wasn't even applied to medical school. Could they be like, well, you know.
- [24:09]
Zach
No, no, that. That is. That is one thing that, to this day, really hurts me because that is absolutely untrue. I was gambling at the time. I did love to gamble, and to be honest with you, I sometimes still gamble with buddies, and that's something that Jen and I have worked through. And the way I go about it and the way we talk about it is a lot different now.
- [24:28]
Jen
And part of healing a lot of.
- [24:30]
Zach
Yeah, I'm just more respectful. Like, I like betting on sports, and occasionally I will still bet on sports, and Jen's very aware of that. And that's just something that we're doing in our marriage. And, like, I'm not afraid to talk about that. But I think what was happening at the time is there was just a lot of miscommunication as far as the whole medical school thing. It also got portrayed on the show that Jen was paying for my medical school, which is. It's also not true.
- [24:52]
Jen
But it was my plan. I mean, I had had a conversation with your parents and said, I would like to pay for med school.
- [24:57]
Zach
I mean, I don't. I don't want to argue with that. The reality is, is my dad had saved up a bunch of money. My dad's a doctor as well, and he had saved up money. So if I ever did decide to go to medical school, that was like, his Giving back to me is he wanted to help pay for that. And so he had saved that money aside. And once I did get accepted to medical school, he directly paid that to the school. That was never money I ever saw or touched. That was directly from him to the school. And. Yeah, and then once I withdrew from medical school, that wasn't money I gotta keep. That's my dad's money. And I don't. You know, he's gonna do whatever he wants with that, but that was, like, something he was doing for his son. Um, so, yeah.
- [25:35]
Mikayla
What was his reaction to you dropping out of med school?
- [25:38]
Zach
Surprisingly, he was. He was really positive and supportive. I think he saw how dark, like, and how sad I was and, like, the dark place I got to. And I think all he wanted was for Jen and I to be able to work through our marriage. And, like, that comes first. And so I think he was sad because he's like, what are you gonna do with your life? Like, they've always been so supportive of it. But, like, he said a comment to me the other day that was like, I don't care what you do. I don't care if you're a park ranger. I just want you to be. I just want you to be happy. Like, just do something that's gonna make you happy. And so I think they've made a lot of progress in the last couple months. And just seeing us finally be happy again and see, like, me be happy because I was in a really dark place for a while. I think they're finally just happy to see us doing good.
- [26:19]
Mikayla
Yeah. So, Jen, did you ever feel like Zach's parents ever, like, blamed you for the show and, like, the reaction of the fans?
- [26:29]
Jen
Yes, I definitely would say that. But I do feel like I could have navigated season one better for sure, and I could have been better at communicating. And obviously, you see in season two that there is lack of communication. And I do think I was living in fear a lot of the time, but it was such a hard place to be in after season one because part of me felt this guilt for putting my relationship on the show and, like, exposing that and being the one to, like, push for that. But at the same time, I was like, wait a second. Like, I'm not responsible for how Zach acted and his actions. So there is a lot of just, like, guilt and me feeling like, oh, I did play a huge part in this. And then part of me was like, no, actually, like, I'm not responsible for this. And, like, your son is responsible for this. And I do feel like I was blamed based off of some comments that were made from, like, what's shown on social media. Everybody has seen it. And yeah, no, I was definitely blamed. But I definitely think that everyone has learned from this situation. And I'm so grateful because I also feel like his family has been able to take a step back and also see, like, yeah, everything just.
- [27:51]
Zach
I mean, again, being, like, fully transparent. I think what was really hard about season one was I think my family was defensive of me. Not even necessarily my parents. It was more like siblings and cousins and people who, like, actually know me, who I think they saw, like, yeah, Zach made a huge mistake, but they also have seen me my whole life, and they're like, yeah, he's a good kid. Like, he did. He acted immature and, like, he did something really dumb. But, like, that's not the full context of, like, who he is. So they were defensive of me, which made Jen feel unsupported. And then on the flip side, Jen's parents are the most loving, supportive people ever. So I think where most parents would be like, yeah, leave that loser. They were like, jen, Zach's an amazing person. They were calling me like, they were crying with me. Like, Jen's parents have been so amazing when it comes to this. And so I think that was really hard for Jen to be like, you're getting so much support from my parents when you were the one who messed up. Why can't I get the same? I think it was just a really tricky situation to navigate because what do my parents say? Hey, we want to congratulate you on this show where our son looks like an asshole. Because that's. That's what I. I mean, that's how I acted.
- [28:55]
Jen
So, yeah, yeah, it's been. It.
- [28:58]
Zach
It's been hard, and it's been tough to navigate, like, honestly, like, yeah, because we have our reality TV life, but then we have our real life relationships with our family and friends. And that is really tough to navigate, to be honest.
- [29:10]
Jen
But for me, at this point, I'm kind of in a stage of, like, I'm doing what I want to do, and I'm doing what I feel like is best for me. And, like, I spent my whole life, like, I didn't have a lot of money growing up. Like, I didn't get the same opportunities that a lot of, like, my friends did, especially when moving to Utah during high school. Like, I went from, like, literally living in the Bay Area, living in the hood, to living in a, like, privileged area. And I saw all of my friends get all these opportunities. And I felt like, oh, because I don't come from, like, a privileged family. Like, I can't get the same opportunities. And I've been very defensive of all the opportunities I'm getting now because I'm like, you don't realize, like, my whole life I've been serving and giving. I was raised with foster kids. I shared my bedroom with kids my whole life. Like, it's time for me to show up for me. And. And I put my foot down because I'm like, no, I do deserve this. And I think sometimes still feel, like, a lot of guilt because of, like, being on a reality TV show isn't easy. Exposing your life isn't easy. But at the same time, I'm like, sometimes you just feel called to something and you can't explain why. And people might have their opinions and say that's right or wrong for me. Like, I've always just followed my gut and intuition, and, like, I want to do the hard thing. It's not easy being vulnerable as a Mormon and showing what actually happens sometimes in, like. Like, Mormon relationships. And, like, I feel like we're doing the hard thing but doing the right thing by exposing what actually happens. And hopefully people within the Mormon culture can look at our relationship and kind of, like, reflect on theirs and say, like, hey, like, I think we kind of struggle with that too. Or, like, maybe my husband has fed into the whole, like, patriarchy and isn't treating me right, or, like, I want to be an example of that, and people aren't going to like that. Unfortunately, I have lost a lot of friends and I think respect because of that, and I don't care. Like, I'm showing up. And I basically told him when I was in a place where I want to walk away from the relationship, like, like, I'm doing this. This is what I feel right about. And you can come along with me. You can support me in this, or you can walk away. I was not opposed to divorce. I was truly doing what I felt was right. And because of that, I feel like our relationship has never been stronger because I have found my voice, and I'm still in the process of that. I'm still young, 25, I'm young. But for me, I have learned so much. And, yeah, I think there's a lot to take from our relationship, how different we are, the dynamic of a relationship. And, yeah, I think.
- [32:08]
Zach
I mean, we got married. Were you 19 or 20?
- [32:11]
Jen
Was just turned 20.
- [32:13]
Zach
Yeah. So, I mean, we were 22. So, like, we had, like, we were super young, and so a lot of this has been, like, us growing up and, like, learning together, figuring out who we are. Like, it's not like we were 30 and had these stable jobs and, like, had really figured ourselves out. Like, we're like children growing up together, then also having children. Like, we're about to have our third baby. So there's been a lot of learning and growing. And I think something Jen said that I'm really proud of her for is how she's found her voice and just decided, like, this is who I am, this is who I want to be. And I think a lot of season one, honestly, was us compensating. Like, because we were the Mormon couple on the show, we felt like we had to really push that and didn't really show up who we really were. So then I think when the gambling stuff came out and then the controlling behavior on my end came out, it was really hard because I. I know personally, I was putting on a facade. I was trying to, for the church, be this certain person. But then there's also this other version of me that I am around my friends or around these other groups. And I think, if anything, the show's taught us just to be yourself and show up for who you really are. And there's gonna be people who like you and there's gonna be people who hate you, but you can't change that. But you've gotta feel good in your own skin or you're never gonna feel comfortable.
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- [36:19]
Nick Viall
Jen, forgive me if I'm, if this is inaccurate and I think you shared last time you were here a little bit about your background, but can you remind the audience a little bit more about your childhood?
- [36:29]
Jen
I was raised by my biological parents, but I was raised with foster kids. So my parents took in foster kids my whole life. From the time that I was three years old, I was sharing my bedroom and basically my. I love my parents so much. Like they. My mom was a convert, so she was raised Catholic, was converted by the Mormon missionaries, moved down to byu, met my dad. My dad was also raised with foster kids. My dad was raised in California. And my, my parents are just different members of the church. My mom still drinks coffee, occasionally drinks too. She doesn't follow all the rules. My parents have never been that way. But their focus growing up was really about being a good person, serving others and making God and Jesus the focus. And basically when bringing in these foster kids, he wanted, my parents wanted to let these children know that, yeah, maybe your, your parents have forgotten you, maybe they aren't here for you, maybe they don't even love you, but guess what? God does. And like, I want you to know that. So when you leave this house, like you have something to rely on if you don't feel that from maybe the next family or whatever. But my parents have always been a perfect example of that. And to be honest, that kind of is still is what is keeping me still with the church. I've had a lot of issues with the church since the show and I've had a relationship, kind of like a spiritual faith crisis. But what's kept me is that love. What's kept me is like that relationship with God, with Jesus. Because I just saw how like it transformed these kids lives and it transformed my life. And I do think people get fixated on the whole like, why do you wear garments? Why do you do this? Why Joseph Smith, where are your garments by the way?
- [38:23]
Zach
I'm.
- [38:24]
Jen
It's about the intention, baby. It's about being a good person. That's what, what it's about. But again, a lot of members do fixate on the things that aren't important. And for me, I always go back to the primary things that are important. And yeah, my, my mom growing up like, we didn't have the like best relationship because of the language barrier. So I was raised by this Hispanic mother, but then I was Also raised by this in some way traditional Mormon man. So I was able to see so much. I was able to see, have so many different relationships with my foster siblings. And like, I feel like I have really such a good perspective on the blessings of the church and the good that you can get from the church. But I also have a perspective of, like, what I don't want to teach my kids and what I want to leave. And. And that's something I'm still just figuring out day by day. But I feel like we've been able to teach each other, like, so much. There's so much I can take from him. And like, to be honest, my family, even though they're like the most Christ, like, loving least judgmental people, they are very dysfunctional in their own way. I also was raised by parents who yelled at each other and screamed at each other and in a lot of ways maybe shouldn't have shown us that, but they showed me the real and the passion and. But with that came, like, also toxic things. But then you've got, like, things that I've learned from you and like, also like your grandparents and just like, hard work and community as well. And. And there, there's just so much that we have learned from each other.
- [40:04]
Zach
So we raised, like, very, very different. Like, Jen's mom was baptized in Ecuador, moved here, came to byu, met her dad. My parents grew up up in probably the most Mormon community in the whole church in Bountiful, Utah. They knew each other since they were 8 years old. Like, both my grandparents were like, high members in the church. Like, just so, just very, very different. So when we came together, there was a lot of, like, learning for us.
- [40:28]
Jen
Both to do, but also, like, he's helped me find my voice because being raised with foster kids, I felt like I did get a lot of the short end of the stick growing up because my parents are so focused on, like, helping these kids. And I did feel in a lot of ways I was neglected. And because of that, I became somewhat of a people pleaser. And him and his family is an example of, like, speaking up for yourself and vocalizing your opinions. You know, his family's a very opinionated family. Now I'm feeling a little bit more comfortable, especially with reality tv, sharing my opinion. So, I mean, there's just.
- [41:03]
Zach
That's one side and I don't know how much you see of it. Season two that like, like, they did Jenna disservice Season one. Like, Jen has this spicy side where she'll like, put me in my place like, snap on me. And I'm like, no one sees. Like, you should have seen her last night screaming at me.
- [41:18]
Jen
I'm like, there is a side of this.
- [41:22]
Nick Viall
It seems like you guys have done a lot of work in terms of mending your relationship trauma and hurt that maybe you two have caused each other. I'd love to, like, learn a little bit about what that. That work looks like and what. What specifically you guys have been doing to try to save your marriage.
- [41:40]
Jen
I can go down to the details. I think the biggest thing that we struggle with is communication and the way that we communicate when in the thick of it or when there is an issue. I am very. I'm a withdrawer, and he's a pursuer. And so I think that has been, like, the game changer for us. Like. Like, kind of, like, perfecting that and how we go about conversations has been like, yeah, Yeah.
- [42:12]
Zach
I think just through therapy and through all the help we've gotten, we've learned a lot of different tools. I don't know if I'm, like, being too vulnerable or, like, what can or can't be shared, but, like, I'll just.
- [42:21]
Mikayla
Share anything you want to share.
- [42:22]
Zach
Yeah, I'll just. I'll just be completely honest. I can't be too vulnerable, like, for, for example. So, like, when I get really worked up, I can really spiral. For example, like, the Chippendales thing, I had. I didn't know what was going on in my mind. It was a much worse crazy scenario. Like, I had been told these different things from other cast members, so I was expecting the absolute worst. And instead of, like, taking a deep breath and gathering the facts, I just started going crazy and saying things I didn't mean and doing things I didn't mean. And there's, like, a lot of things that our therapists have taught us of, like, why do you react that way? But, like, one simple thing that, like, I do now is like. Like, I have, like, anxiety medication. And so, like, if I ever find myself in a place where, like, I'm, like, really frustrated with Jen, like, last night, we in a big argument. I'm like, okay, I'm going to go take my medication. I'm going to go take 20 minutes by myself, and I'm going to sit here and think about how I want to show up and how I want to talk to my wife, and then we're going to have this conversation. When I'm regulated versus before, it'd be screaming and yelling and pointing fingers, which goes nowhere. Which people saw season One. And then we've just done a lot of other things that I feel like in the Mormon Church were kind of considered taboo. One day we decided to go to a spiritual healer and we took like a weed gummy together and we just. Yeah.
- [43:39]
Jen
Was it a weed gummy? It was. Oh, yeah.
- [43:41]
Zach
THC weed gummy. Yeah. We decided like, hey, like, maybe this will, like, help us open up. And like. Right. I had never drank, smoked, done anything in my life, but this was right after season one came out and I was in. Like, we were both in a really dark place and I'm like, we need to change things up. Like, weed was legal in Arizona where we were living. I'm like, we need.
- [43:59]
Jen
We're going crazy.
- [43:59]
Zach
No, no, we weren't smoking.
- [44:01]
Jen
We're going crazy.
- [44:03]
Zach
But I'm like, yeah, let's. Let's take a gummy. And we went to the spiritual healer and, like, had this great experience. And then. Well, that was kind of a crazy experience, to be honest. Also, we took, like, since we were both so naive, we took like 10 times the dose you're actually supposed to take. And we were like, in a different universe and didn't know where we were.
- [44:20]
Jen
Never did.
- [44:21]
Zach
And this spiritual healer, I was confessing all my life sins and, like, telling her how much I loved Jen. And Yeah, really.
- [44:28]
Mikayla
She's like, I'm just here to tell you about your future. She's just like, I'm gonna read your palm.
- [44:32]
Jen
I don't know, I'm dying.
- [44:34]
Zach
She, look, I need to go to the hospital. Yeah, Jen was like, passed out and.
- [44:38]
Nick Viall
I'm like, call 911 on you.
- [44:39]
Jen
No, I know.
- [44:40]
Zach
Jen asked to call 911. She thought she was dying.
- [44:42]
Jen
I literally thought I was dying.
- [44:43]
Zach
We later found out you can't overdose on weed.
- [44:46]
Mikayla
But anyway, a piece of advice that our therapist gave us that really works for us and it might work for the two of you is if we're arguing about something and we've been arguing about it for five minutes, it's like one of us kind of calls like a timeout, and it's like, we have to table this.
- [45:01]
Nick Viall
And by one of us, she means it's always me.
- [45:03]
Advertiser
We have to table this.
- [45:05]
Mikayla
And, like, we'll circle back because we're just not getting anywhere right now, and it's not worth it.
- [45:10]
Nick Viall
I think as men, we are. You know, that's the language you used, pursuer. I think men, you know, that inherent fix it mentality, you know, a little bit more of the logical brain, you know, it's just like, well, that makes no sense. And I want to get to the bottom of it right now.
- [45:24]
Zach
Yes.
- [45:25]
Nick Viall
And, yeah, it is. It is something that's really helped. It's always accurate. Right. Because, like, the way our therapist described it is like. Like once you're arguing for five minutes, you're not arguing from a place of an emotionally regulated adult. You're arguing from the place of whatever child that's inside you, whatever trauma you're experiencing. And you're not trying to communicate, you're trying to win. You're not trying to be happy. You're trying to be right. And it usually takes that time out, which almost seems silly when, you know, when you're. When Arthur's first described, it's like, really, really? Time out?
- [45:57]
Zach
Really?
- [45:57]
Nick Viall
You want me to. Really? Okay. But it does. It works. You calm down and then you start, start. And like you said, you. You approach it from a place of coming together, of building back that connection. I mean, I remember, you know, it wasn't until my 40s I learned that lesson. So imagine all the relationships I've had and arguments I've had with past partners and girlfriends where I was like, man, that could have been really useful, you know?
- [46:23]
Zach
Yeah.
- [46:24]
Nick Viall
So, yeah, it's. It's. It's nice to learn.
- [46:26]
Jen
Timeout is.
- [46:27]
Zach
We're familiar with the timeout. And. And yeah, I think I'm naturally competitive and I'm naturally, like, I want to win the argument. And so, like, yeah, again, last night, I was.
- [46:36]
Nick Viall
What did you guys fight about?
- [46:38]
Advertiser
He's like, and that's enough. I'm being vulnerable.
- [46:40]
Zach
Well, hold on. I don't want to get that vulnerable. Yeah. To be honest, I mean, just a little bit more behind that. Sometimes I do feel like these women are amazing and they have so many opportunities, but sometimes it does feel like. Or at least what I was feeling yesterday was like, hey, I just wish that, like, you don't have to go to every dinner, show up to everything. Sometimes I just wish our marriage was first and it wasn't getting put first and it was hurting my feelings. And. Yeah. So I got upset at Jen and she called the timeout on me and left. And then that's when, anyways, I said.
- [47:09]
Jen
I don't have time for this. I'm pregnant.
- [47:10]
Zach
Yeah. So that's kind of what we thought about, which I also think is good to talk about that. Like, we. We're not trying to portray some, like, perfect marriage by any means. Like, that still happens, and we're getting better at it each day. But, yeah, timeout's been big for us.
- [47:23]
Mikayla
Jen, how did you feel before all of this stuff went public? All of the world kind of had a view into your marriage. How did you feel in your marriage before this reality TV show came about?
- [47:37]
Jen
I was really struggling for a while, and I never actually fully vocalized that, but internally, I was for sure battling, because I feel like your toxic tendencies kind of came out the start of, like, trying to get to med school. Because at that point, there had kind of been a shift in the dynamic of our relationship. In the beginning of our relationship, he was the provider. I kind of was just at home chilling, not really doing anything, and I was just kind of like, whatever Zach does, summer sells school. Like, I'm just tagging along. And I was like, kind of like, chill with it. But I think I've always been pretty ambitious in my own way, and I definitely need my own thing. So when I pushed him to go back to med school, leave summer cells, I was kind of put in a place where, like, I was forced to, like, provide, or at least I knew that, like, I needed to find a way to provide, because at that point, I couldn't rely on him providing for us, and I didn't want to be in debt. And then at the same time that we had committed to that and all those changes, I found out I was pregnant with my first. And so that kind of just like, put something in me that just, like, I need to make this happen. I need to start providing, and I need to give this baby the best life. So I started my videography career. It kind of turned into what it is now, social media, now reality tv. But I. I think that caused a lot of issues because as I became the provider, I kind of And a mother, I kind of started to find my voice and I started to find my confidence. And I also started to gain somewhat control in our relationship. He was kind of the person just kind of, like, steering the wheel. And I kind of just came in and was like, like, okay, I actually think we should do it this way. And you know what?
- [49:25]
Mikayla
I'm the one paying for it.
- [49:26]
Jen
No, exactly.
- [49:27]
Zach
And I resisted it at first.
- [49:29]
Jen
I didn't realize you really resisted it. And it really caused a lot of issues. And in the thick of that, I got asked to be on a reality TV show.
- [49:38]
Mikayla
Zach, did it make you insecure that she was making money?
- [49:42]
Zach
It still sometimes makes me insecure. Sometimes I'm at home, like, on, like, a random Tuesday as a stay at home dad. I'm at, like, the Trampoline park with my two kids. And I'm like, like, what the hell am I doing with my life? Like, I'm grateful that that's even a possibility. And I still think I want to figure out what I want to do. But back at that time, it was really hard because this dynamic had switched. Suddenly, Jen's providing, and there was other things going on. I was in the middle of, like, studying for the MCAT, trying to get into medical school. I was taking 21 credits to try to graduate from college. We had one and then a second baby, back to back. Jen, like, six months after she gave birth, she got pregnant again with her second baby.
- [50:19]
Mikayla
Y' all be fucking.
- [50:20]
Zach
Which y she tricked. I got tricked in and out. She took out her IUD without telling me. But, yeah, that was stressful. So I was under a lot of stress.
- [50:37]
Jen
Oopsies. Whoopsies.
- [50:39]
Zach
Before therapy, I was like, this was before therapy. And then, like, our marriage wasn't perfect again. We were young. We didn't have the coping skills we have now. And again, like, I would sometimes. Like, one of the ways I would cope is I'd play online poker with my buddies at night. She hated that because she's providing, like, doing all this work for our family and her kids. I'm gone at school all day long, and then she's like, like, what the hell are you doing?
- [51:03]
Mikayla
So were you essentially gambling Jen's money?
- [51:06]
Zach
That. That's another part of the show. That's Jen at the time. This was when she was, like, doing videography and starting social media. At the time, I was still getting checks from, like, the summer sales. So do you guys know what summer sales is?
- [51:18]
Mikayla
No.
- [51:19]
Zach
Oh, they need to make a reality TV show about it. It's basically this super common thing in you. But every summer, kids go out from Utah to different states and they sell pest control or alarms door to door. And that sounds like, oh, how successful could it be? People make hundreds of thousands of dollars in a summer. Like, I have buddies who are millionaires just selling pest control door to door. So that's what I was doing to provide for a family. Early on, I'd go to school, and then in the summer, we probably should have.
- [51:46]
Jen
He's like, great idea, because I'm bringing in the dough.
- [51:49]
Zach
Yeah, I know.
- [51:51]
Nick Viall
Sales is sales, and if you sell the bank.
- [51:52]
Zach
No, I think because I really wanted to pursue going to medical school and, like, I wasn't fulfilled in that. So, yeah, we stepped away from that. But.
- [52:00]
Mikayla
So it was your summer sales money, not gym.
- [52:02]
Zach
Yeah. And then we had made some investments. We had bought a home. We had remodeled the home, which we ended up selling.
- [52:09]
Jen
Yeah, well, yeah, we had. We had. We had some leftover money, but for the most part, at that point, it felt like he was gambling my money because I was the provider at that point, so.
- [52:22]
Nick Viall
Well, at this point, you're married, so it does. It's a bit of a gray area. Right? For sure.
- [52:26]
Jen
There's a lot of gray areas.
- [52:27]
Nick Viall
There's. Well, no, I mean, it's like. I mean, our money. Is it your money? It's just like. Like, you know, whether it's my money or you earned it whenever, and you think you're spending yours, but, you know, when you're married, there's. There's the expectation that you're. You will be communicating, I guess, essentially all expenses. I mean, Natalie makes her own money, right? And she's allowed to do what she wants. But, like, every once in a while, I'll be like, oh, that's a new purse. That's. Wow. Where that show up from, huh? Cool. No.
- [52:54]
Zach
Three years.
- [52:55]
Mikayla
You know, literally since I was.
- [52:57]
Jen
I've had this forever.
- [52:58]
Nick Viall
Yeah, it's an antique.
- [53:03]
Jen
This is an investment.
- [53:04]
Advertiser
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- [53:06]
Cash App
You know, it's.
- [53:07]
Zach
This is fake designer.
- [53:08]
Cash App
Especially when.
- [53:09]
Nick Viall
When both people in the relationship make their own money. And you also want to maintain a little bit of independence, even in a marriage. I know. I know we do. Right. You know, but I'm guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong, you know, for us, it's just. It's more about just, like, making sure we're on the same page. You know, she doesn't need my permission, nor do I need her permission to, like, spend money. But it's just. We just want to make sure that we're. We're doing more things together than apart, you know? And regardless of whose money it was, I am assuming. Correct me if I'm wrong, when it comes to gambling, we are aware of just how dangerous it can be. I. I'm assuming you are aware of that.
- [53:46]
Zach
Yeah.
- [53:47]
Nick Viall
And there's all these stories about people, you know, ruining their. It is an addiction. And so, yeah, I'm guessing that's kind of maybe where that those feelings came from.
- [53:56]
Jen
Well, yeah.
- [53:58]
Zach
I think another thing was early on in our marriage because I was the one providing. And again, I had this, like, framework of my head of, like, how things work.
- [54:05]
Jen
I can do whatever the hell I want.
- [54:06]
Zach
It was. No, not necessarily that, but it was kind of like I was the one making the money. So I Was kind of like, I was controlling it. Like, I wasn't giving Jen that freedom that she wanted. And so suddenly, when she was making all this money, she's like, well, well, I've got the freedom now. Like, I'm gonna do what I want. And so that's taken us time. It was a punch to my ego, and it's taken us time to figure out how are we gonna navigate our finances, how are we gonna do this, how are we gonna do that? And, yeah, it's. I think it's just part of figuring it out.
- [54:30]
Jen
Yeah.
- [54:31]
Zach
Back to you.
- [54:31]
Jen
But also, yeah, with the gambling, that's something that we openly talk about a ton. And I do feel like being raised in the Mormon Church, there is a lot of shame and guilt around a lot of stuff. And I feel like with boundaries and communication, like, it's become more of, like, a healing thing for us. And it has been like, a toxic. Like, we're going back to, like, toxic things. It's more just like, hey, like, if we can stick to this budget, if we can stick to this, like, we're a team, like, you want to spend this amount of money with, like, betting on a sports game? Well, I'm going to spend this amount of money on a bag. Like, we just see it that way. Obviously, if it got went too far and, like, he wasn't being honest, we would have to set that boundary and say, this isn't working. We tried to make it work. Let's not do it. We haven't gotten to that point. It's been a very perfect way for us to bond and also not put so much.
- [55:30]
Nick Viall
When you say bond, what do you mean?
- [55:31]
Zach
I know that that sounds crazy to say, like, oh, you're bonding over gambling, but I think where it caused us a lot of pain early on was, was I'd kind of do it when I wanted with my buddies. A lot of my buddies sports bet, and I'd kind of just, like, do it with them. And not always, like, there wasn't full transparency where now it's kind of like, hey, babe, like, the Lakers are playing tonight. Like, I'm gonna bet 200 bucks on that. Are you cool? And she'll, like, we'll, like, watch the game together.
- [55:55]
Nick Viall
Sure.
- [55:55]
Zach
And it will be, like, an exciting thing. And then it's, you know, then it's not like a. I'm doing this behind her back. I'm, like, spending money I shouldn't be spending. It's more of, like, this fun thing that I do on occasion versus, like, a Top toxic. You know what I'm saying?
- [56:08]
Nick Viall
It makes a ton of sense. You're not bonding over gambling. You're bonding over communicating in boundaries and respecting each other's boundaries and doing things together and.
- [56:17]
Jen
Yeah, exactly.
- [56:19]
Nick Viall
And just agreeing because, like, that is a marriage.
- [56:21]
Mikayla
Has there been a moment where you've said, no, maybe not tonight?
- [56:25]
Jen
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
- [56:27]
Zach
Yeah. I mean, well, after. After Vegas, I didn't. I didn't go into a casino or I didn't gamble for. For like, nine months because there was a lot of trauma that needed to be healed behind that. And I was trying to be sensitive to Jen and, like, the hurt that I had caused her. But finally, through therapy, we got to a point where, like, our therapist was like, Zach, what are things? Like, you love to do? It seems like you're not doing a lot of the things you love anymore. Like, you're not going on surfing trips. You're not, like, gambling with your buddies. I'm like, yeah, I kind of do love those things, but, like, I'm trying not to do them for my. For my wife. And she's like, no, like, you need to find healthy, positive ways to do these things. And so that's when we started talking. And literally a conversation with our therapist was. Was like, hey, Zach wants to occasionally sports bet with his buddies. Jen, how do you feel about that? Well, I don't feel good about it because of X, Y and Z. And then we got to a place where we're like, okay, that's a good compromise. This is how we can make it work. And there is nights where she's like, yeah, like, I don't want you to do that.
- [57:18]
Jen
Yeah.
- [57:19]
Mikayla
Obviously your relationship has, Has. Has been under scrutiny. We only see what the editors put in the show. So can you kind of give us some things you really love about each other? Like, what is something that Zach does? What are parts of your relationship that you just cherish and love and that you're grateful for?
- [57:39]
Jen
Yeah. There's so many things I love about Zach. First off, he's good looking. Love that. No, there's. There's so many things I love that. How much of a hard worker he is, even though he's taken on the role of being a stay at home dad I've always loved.
- [57:57]
Mikayla
It's hard as shit.
- [57:57]
Jen
Yes, it is hard.
- [57:59]
Zach
It's way hard.
- [58:00]
Jen
It's harder than med school, to be honest. Credits to all the stay at home moms and stay at home dads. It's. It's not easy. I love that he's just so hard working and anything he's ever set his mind to, he's. He's always been able to do that and go 100%. So, you know, when he wanted to marry me and that was a goal, he went 100% and made that happen. When I was walking away from our marriage and he decided, this is what I want, he walked away from med school and said, I'm going 100% at it. I'm doing it. He's always been really, really good at that in whatever he wants in his life. And I love that about him because it motivates me and, like, my intentions and things that I want in life. I love that he's. He's smart and intelligent. I love. I mean, the world hasn't been able to see the other parts of Zach, but he really does have a big, big, big heart and he cares a lot and he's an amazing father. He cares about me, he cares about his children, and he is always thinking about his children. We wouldn't have our doctor's appointments set up and all the things, you know, if it wasn't for him. I'm all over the place, like, adhd. He's always like, hey, like, are. Are they getting the nutrients that they need? Are they doing this? Like, he really is just so good at that. He's a great friend. He's loyal. He is so loyal. We've got the golden retriever. I would say I'm the golden retriever. He's like the shepherd. Like, he, like, protects and he's loyal and he's hard working. Like, that is like Zach to his core. And yes, like, he is very opinionated. I love that about him, though. He's not fake about it. He's gonna say it how it is. He's straight up. I have a tendency to be a people pleaser and not really vocalize, but he motivates me to and brings out that side in me of this is what I want and this is how I'm going to get it. Yeah, there's. There's.
- [59:58]
Mikayla
I could go on all day.
- [59:59]
Zach
I could go on. I love these podcasts. We should do these more often. I could also go on and on, but I would say the two things that stick out to me the most about Jen is, first, I feel like she's the only person I've ever been able to fully be myself around. And she brings out this different side in me and just makes me feel, I don't know, like anyone who knows Jen can just see this light and it's just, it's, she's always fun to be around. She always is. Like, it's just exciting. She makes life fun and I can be really serious and she can kind of help me calm down and just enjoy life. And then the other thing which I've really felt in the last like six months is Jen is really good at showing unconditional love and she had a lot of reasons to walk away from our marriage to yeah, like.
- [60:51]
Nick Viall
Don'T fight.
- [60:52]
Zach
It shows you're human. Yeah, she, she has just shown me a lot of unconditional love when maybe I didn't deserve it or maybe she had a lot of reason to again walk away or just feel a certain way. And she's stuck by me and worked through a lot of really hard times and I'm, I'm super grateful for that. And then the last thing I just say is she's, she's a great mother and yeah, there's no one else I'd rather like see be the mother of my children.
- [61:22]
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- [64:33]
Nick Viall
Zack, I'd love for you to just think back about going into season one and then think about where you're at now. You know, with all the work you two as a couple and I'd love to know what you think your role as a husband is today versus what you thought your role as a husband is prior to all the work you guys have done as a client couple.
- [64:54]
Zach
Yeah, that's a great question. I think going into season one I had this idea of again that the man was like the patriarch of the family. Like, I was in like, I was supposed to like make the decisions for us. I was supposed to provide for us. I was supposed to like, protect kind of just all those like traditional roles that a lot of males, especially in the church kind of take on. And I'm still figuring out what my roles are now. Like I said, like, being a stay at home dad was kind of never my plan. I think my role now, at least what I'm embracing right now is just supporting Jen and like kind of helping her shine and just like being okay. That like there's a lot that goes behind on behind the scenes of taking care of random things, of kids, of things that people are never going to see and like that's contributing to our relationship and it's allowing Jen to have these opportunities that she honestly deserves and just supporting her, just being able to like be there and enjoy that she's getting to do all the these like really cool things that she always dreamed of. Because this really was Jen's dream. Like she wanted to do something like this. And so, yeah, supporting her in those things and then just enjoying being a dad. Like, being a dad is like the coolest thing ever. And like you get to like create like these mini mes and like just like teach them all these fun things and go do all these fun things all the time. And so, yeah, I feel like that's kind of the role I'm playing right now.
- [66:12]
Nick Viall
That's awesome.
- [66:13]
Zach
Yeah.
- [66:14]
Nick Viall
Do you feel like, you know, and thanks for answering that question. Cause, cause like as a fan of reality tv, it's, you know, it's, it's. I think it's enjoyed by everyone, but it's, it's. I think, you know, there's a little bit more women viewers than male viewers. And I think, you know, I don't know if it's just the reality of men, you know, maybe there's some how men are portrayed on the show. But you know, it is sometimes frustrating. Like, you know, like everyone else, I'm the furthest from a perfect person, have all my flaws, you know, and in relationships, outside of relationships. But like it is sometimes frustrating watching these shows where it seems like some of the men on these shows like have like just like expect a bare minimum from themselves where it's just like, you know, I sometimes when I talk about these shows, I feel like I'm coming from a place of like thinking I'm better than these guys. But like some of the guys, it's just like what the Fuck are you guys guys doing? You know? And it's. But now that you've done some of this work, do you see yourself wanting to be a vehicle for change when it comes to other men in your community, your. Your friends. Your wife mentioned how loyal you are, and you seem like you have a good, good group of guy friends. But I ask, I. I have to assume that some of the men in your community, or even some of the men who are also on the show have a lot of work to do themselves. And how do you plan on. You know, obviously you're going on your journey, and I'm sure that's probably your primary focus right now, but do you see yourself wanting to be an example of positive change and encouraging other men in your community to follow some of the work you've been doing?
- [68:01]
Zach
Yeah, I mean, I still feel like. So when we first started therapy, I had this idea in my mind of, like, okay, I'm gonna do this for six months, and then, like, I'm gonna be good. And like, I've now realized that's like, not what, like, this is going to be an ongoing continual thing for probably forever. But I do think there's a lot of great men in my life who I want to take things from them and apply them. And then there's things where I'm like, no, I don't want to be that kind of a husband. I don't want to be that kind of a man. And I'm trying to, like, make those changes and shift everything. As far as the men on the show, I actually think there's a lot of great husbands and a lot of, like, the learning I've done has been from them. Like, specifically, I've had so many late night conversations with Connor, Whitney's husband. Like, we spend a lot of time together. We go to the gym together. Like, off camera. He calls me all the time and I just talk through and he's helped me. I ask him, like, how do you handle some of these things? How do you go about it? And he's been one of my mentors also. Connor's journey of him and everything he went through led him to getting into EMDR and all these different things which ultimately led us to doing EMDR and these different modalities of therapy, of getting into ketamine therapy, which that was like, completely life changing for us. Us. And so I think when I've healed more and I'm ready, I would love to talk more about this and more of, like, the mental health things that I went through. That Jen went through and just kind of showing people that, like, so many people are quick on social media to be like, divorce him. Like, divorce, divorce, divorce. But, like, you can fight for a marriage and it can work and you can make changes. And I hope that, like, I'm not saying I'm perfect or I've completely changed, but that that's what I'm trying to do, and I hope people can see that.
- [69:37]
Nick Viall
Thanks for sharing all this. This has been great. I do want to talk a little bit about, about season two. It's been fun getting to know you. And, you know, a lot of the women, especially season two, came at you for what they've claimed was you being dishonest. You know, there's the whole Ben Affleck of it all and yada yada. And, you know, I said this to, I think Jesse when she was here, but you seem more or less harmless. You know, you know, there's. I guess not that any lying or, you know, embellishing is okay. But you mentioned people pleasing. It seems like sometimes your. Your fibbing comes from a place of desiring acceptance.
- [70:16]
Jen
Oh, absolutely.
- [70:17]
Nick Viall
And I don't want to go back to, like, the tough parts in your relationships, but there were, obviously. And Zach has owned up to a lot of things he's done. But there were, you know, things that you said about your husband that maybe not all of it was even accurate, but, like, what are. What are some things that maybe you got wrong when it came to how you talked about your husb. And also, do you feel like you were in the spirit of people pleasing? Do you feel like some of the other women were able to convince you that your husband was a certain way or did certain things that you agreed to or said that ultimately wasn't true?
- [70:54]
Jen
I do agree with everything you just said. I do think I have a lot of people pleasing tendencies. I do think that a lot of the dishonesty that maybe you see in season two, where I wasn't just straight up, right up front, came from me living in fear and not me. I've never really had, for the most part, like, any, like, ill intent. I think it's just a lot of things that I've had to even just work through in therapy with. Yeah. Trying to be accepted and having issues with that. I do feel like everything I showed in season one was accurate to how I was feeling. I never saw Zach Foley at as, like this, like, narcissist, but I did see a lot of narcissistic traits. And, like, I did feel like through, like, my own, like, hurt and reflection. Like, I did see him as that, and that was my truth at that time. And obviously we had never gone to therapy at that point. I'd never seen him put in that full effort. So at that time, like, that, that was. Was how I felt. And going into season two, I did live in that fear of, like, will he actually make those changes? And like, I think a lot of people in marriages go through those stages of life where, like, they're like, will they change and will they do those things? And in season two, you see a lot of that hurt. The hurt from season one and the past couple of years were kind of like, bottled up in season two. And I was just. Just living in, like, this hurt and honestly, rage. I'd been quiet for so long, I'd been a people pleaser for so long that, like, there was a combination of rage, people pleasing, fear and change. Like, I just was going through all of it. I wanted change. I. But my old self was still coming out, but, like, I'm still evolving into this new person and I'm calling people out, but, like, am I being fully honest with myself? Like, there is a lot of just like, what's going on? There's a lot to navigate. And I maybe. It seems like I had, like, maybe fed into, like, what the girls were saying. That was never really the case. I think I was already bottling up a lot of feelings and I never. I mean, there's a reason why I isolated myself after season one is I truly was trying to figure out what was best for me. And that's why I also isolated myself in season two with the whole, like, me being dishonest.
- [73:30]
Nick Viall
I want to be clear. I don't mean to cut you off, but other than the, the Chippendale where it sounds like maybe you knew a little bit more than you let on. And, and to me and Jesse, like, acknowledged that. They said, hey, we're not going to tell you everything. And there's a little bit of back and forth. It was really more you being accused. There wasn't. It wasn't clear that there were. You. You were lying a lot. I want to be clear that wasn't like a bunch of like, oh, Jen's lying all the time.
- [73:54]
Jen
Everyone's told me that I'm just biggest liar in season two.
- [73:57]
Zach
So you're.
- [73:57]
Nick Viall
You're being accused of it constantly by Demi, mostly. Jesse seems to, like, be her, like, partner in crime, but it really seems to be Demi, which would make sense.
- [74:08]
Zach
But that makes more sense. Now, knowing what you guys know.
- [74:11]
Nick Viall
Well, I mean. Well, I don't. To be honest, we're all kind of confused. We have the opportunity to talk to Michaela, Macy, Jesse, Layla.
- [74:19]
Zach
Yeah.
- [74:20]
Nick Viall
Miranda and Demeter. I think it's kind of important just that we ask because everyone's kind of involved.
- [74:26]
Jen
Yeah. I'll just lay this out. Like, this is my full truth. And I don't know if it's shown at all in season two, but with the whole Chippendales thing, first off, I don't know what's shown in the show, but, yeah, to be just fully transparent and saying this with my, like, literally, like, full, honest truth. I went and got my hair done at Jesse's salon, and I was never, like, it was never supposed to be brought up. Like, nothing about the whole, like, them throwing a Chippendales party was supposed to be brought up. The only reason why Demi ended up bringing it up is because I told her about, like, my ketamine experience and how we fully healed from Chippendales. And to be honest, I wasn't being fully honest with them at that point, being at the salon because I was trying to protect my marriage, and I didn't know how season two was gonna go. And so her hearing that, she was like, well, then maybe I should show you, tell you about, like, this Chippendales party that I. I was going to throw. And so I was kind of people pleasing with them at that moment and kind of just being a yes girl and saying whatever, but I didn't actually fully realize what I was saying yes to. And there wasn't also full transparency. Chippendale's dancer was never brought up to me. Me being seated, like, it was very much, like, seemed very much, like, light hearted. But at the same time, I also wasn't being fully honest with them.
- [75:48]
Nick Viall
And.
- [75:48]
Jen
And. And Zach, because I had never vocalized even there being a strip show at Chippendales. And so that was kind of just, like, in passing. But I think what's confusing for me is, like, it would have never been brought up if I wasn't at the salon that day. So what was your intent behind hosting that? Because you wouldn't have told me if I wasn't there. And if I hadn't told you where we were at in our marriage. Marriage, what would that have looked like? And then, of course, like, when we got there and Zach didn't know what was going on, and then all of a sudden, Chippendale's dancer was there. Me being seated, I was just Kind of like, I knew about this. I didn't know the extent of it. Now everyone's calling me a liar. The Ben Affleck thing, I've always been fully honest about that. I never made that up. That was never a lie. It was brought up. That's still something we're, like, trying to, like, figure out. Was that a joke? Did your grandpa get the wrong Ben Affleck? Like, that was never something I ever lied. Um, but the only person that deserves an apology with that whole thing is Zach. And I have given that to him because I wasn't fully transparent with him. It's very interesting that she keeps coming out and calling me a liar and saying things that I made these things up. It really is her deflecting on the truth. That happened after Vanderpump Villa. She knew that I was going to talk about it, and she didn't want me to talk about it. Therefore, she used Chippendales and that whole Halloween party to make me. To make it seem like I was this big, biggest liar. So if I did bring it up, no one would believe me. And at that point, she was in a perfect place to do that because I was isolated from the group. So she could tell the whole group how she fell and she could convince the whole group that this was happening, but that was just not the case at all. And I mean, you'll see later on that more receipts are show shown. Like, more proof is shown. And, like, it's just honestly, like, her freaking out and her deflecting.
- [77:54]
Mikayla
We've asked all of the women. Obviously, it's all over social media. What is your opinion on the Demi Marciano Jesse of it all?
- [78:07]
Jen
Yeah, my opinion on it is, I think, think Demi pushed boundaries in Vanderpump Villa. And when you say push boundaries.
- [78:19]
Nick Viall
Boundaries in her marriage.
- [78:20]
Zach
Yes.
- [78:21]
Jen
And I called her out for it, and she was very upset. In Italy, she was like, how dare you tell me what my own boundaries are in my marriage? Like, how dare you? Like, like, this is like, I can do what I want. Kind of the same mentality of, like, what she brought in Vegas. But it was almost what.
- [78:44]
Zach
I mean. You also called me, though, because I was back in Arizona in medical school, and Jen called me and was like. Because I was asking her about how this trip was going, and you called me. I was like, yeah, Demi's just been crying in our room for the last hour. She's so. She feels so bad. She feels like she's cheated on her husband.
- [79:00]
Jen
Yes.
- [79:00]
Zach
Well, why? Well, because she was sitting on his lap, she was kissing him. All these things that were never shown in the edit. It. It's just. I don't even know how we're like, still honestly debating the topic.
- [79:12]
Nick Viall
Yeah, well, I think partly it's just because it's obviously such a serious, sensitive, serious conversation.
- [79:18]
Jen
And it's just like, I think what's. What was hard for me was like, this has happened before. I've heard this from other people, like when she, in her past marriages that this would happen. And so for me, like, I just kind of of like told her, like, if you want to flirt with this guy or whatever, like, you can go do that. Like, that's your boundary in your marriage, like, whatever. But, like, I'm making it very clear that I don't want to be associated with that. And I was worried at that point, like, are they going to edit it in a way that we're all flirting with these guys? I want to make it very clear that, like, I'm just here to have a fun girls trip and I'm not like, trying to like, you know.
- [80:02]
Mikayla
So at that moment, were you, when you brought that up to Demi, were you trying to be like a good friend and hold her accountable and be like, hey, I don't know where your head is right now, but, like, this is what you're doing and maybe you should stop?
- [80:13]
Jen
And she didn't absolutely respond well. Absolutely. And I think at that point she was just like, maybe she had realized. But later after the trip, she ended up having a conversation with Brett and she was bawling on the phone and she was like, I went too far. I should have gone to bed at 8pm when you went to bed, Jen, like, I think I may have pushed this too far. Will you guys please not tell anyone? And at that point, I'll be straight up, like, she was never truly like a true friend to me. She'd never been loyal to me. She exposed all of my text messages in Vegas for her own benefit and for her own storyline. It never felt like she was a true loyal friend to me. So at that point, I had my guard up and I own this. Like I told Mikayla, I'm not a loyal friend to her. So if she comes at me and my marriage again, season two, like, I'm going to bring this up because it's not fair. It's not fair for you to keep pointing fingers at my marriage, make your whole storyline about how I'm in this toxic marriage, yada, yada, yada. But then we don't talk about Your marriage. Because we all know that there's things happening. Season two happened, and I mentioned it in the scene with me, Zach, Demi, and Jesse. I brought it up right after that scene. She ends up calling me, and I have this voice recording. She calls me, and she tries to coach me on what to say if they ask me about Vanderpump Villa.
- [81:51]
Zach
The story doesn't add up. When you look at the receipts, when you look at what happened, happened, it just doesn't add up. And then the whole time, she's bullying my wife. She's making tiktoks with her husband. She's trying to get the whole group to make Jen look like she's a liar. For. For what purpose? Because that. That fits her. Because she's honestly very manipulative.
- [82:09]
Jen
Also, yeah, it. It was frustrating because then right after Vanderpump Villa, she was inviting him to a dinner. Like, I have voice recordings of her saying, I want him to come to dinner. And I said, I sent her to come Marciano. I sent a voice recording back, and I said, absolutely not. I will not be at that dinner. I do not want to be associated with that man. Like, when.
- [82:35]
Nick Viall
When was that timeline? This is after the filming.
- [82:37]
Jen
This is right before season one came out. Right after filming, before Italy came out. And then she said, I want to invite him to the premiere. I think it would be a great time. Like, and then I heard from the other girls, like, there was, like, weird DMS that she was sending him, and, like, she was FaceTiming him with MOD. It. Nothing. Nothing added up. And then why. Why are you coaching me on what to say with Vanderpump Villa and that to. To say that you. That I was wrong for questioning her boundaries in her marriage. Nothing adds up. Everything keeps changing.
- [83:15]
Zach
Why are you getting a cease and desist and then saying, I never got a cease and desist and then saying.
- [83:20]
Jen
That I lied about that. I'm like, that literally happened.
- [83:23]
Zach
Like, well, no, it didn't happen. She didn't go through with that. But she tried to.
- [83:28]
Jen
She tried to get me to be quiet. Why would you. What. What would be your. Your purpose behind keeping me quiet? Like, what's your reasoning behind that? And so for me, like, she can call me.
- [83:41]
Ferris State University
I think.
- [83:42]
Nick Viall
I think she says that, like, you're spreading lies about her marriage and her reputation, and it's. I think she wanted to keep you quiet, but she. She claims that you're lying.
- [83:53]
Jen
Yes. Which. Okay. Like, you'll.
- [83:56]
Zach
It's just hard when there's, like, receipts to back it on one end and not the other. And then, like, saying, like, she was lying about the cease and desist. There's just so many things where it's just so hard to be like, you want to give grace because it's such a sensitive topic. It just, again, the story just doesn't add up.
- [84:12]
Nick Viall
Well, do you think we'll have an opportunity maybe in season three or at some point Point? You guys keep mentioning receipts. Well, will. Will the audience get a chance to see some of these receipts?
- [84:25]
Jen
Yes.
- [84:26]
Zach
Hopefully, yes. I mean, we never. We never know.
- [84:29]
Jen
Well, if not, I'll be posting on my social. I'm just kidding.
- [84:35]
Nick Viall
I want to take in one more question, just because I think it's very relatable. You found out you were pregnant in season two, and obviously your initial reaction was, wasn't. What a lot of women feel is that excitement. You know, you felt that fear. Nellie and I have been open about our own fertility struggles, and obviously, I imagine that was a very complicated feeling that you had because I'm assuming you're. We're all told this is a blessing. This is amazing. You obviously have wonderful children already and you. You love being parents. How did you deal with that? Those complicated feelings of. Of feeling that feeling fear initially at a time where other times you. You think you're supposed to feel another way?
- [85:15]
Jen
Yeah, at that point, I felt, like, a lot of guilt and just I felt guilty for not being proactive and because I wasn't on birth control, like, kind of putting ourselves in that situation because, you know, having a baby is, like, a big deal. I mean, you're responsible for a human being coming into this life. And so I. I don't think, like, I. I truly, like, think that I wasn't being responsible during that time. And I felt bad because at that point, I didn't know where our marriage was headed. I didn't know if we were headed to divorce or if we were going to fight. And so for me, I felt guilt just, like, bringing this baby into his life at such a vulnerable, hard time. And for me, I was like, this is the last thing I need right now, and I can barely take care of myself. How am I supposed to take care of this baby and take care of my kids and do all these things and be a part of the show and fight for our marriage? Like, really, my head was, like, going into circles. But honestly, if it wasn't for finding out that I was pregnant, I don't think I would have prioritized my mental health as much as I did. And Prioritized, getting healthier help. Because, yeah, again, at that point, it didn't. It no longer was about me. It was about this baby, taking care of this baby, protecting this baby. And, I mean, people tell you, like, how you go about your life, what you put in your, you know, like, what you. What you eat, and like, just pregnancy is a big deal. Like, everything. The way that you're living your life and how you're taking care of your body, it affects the baby, affects the baby for the rest of their life. That's where my head was at. And I was really, like, just worried. But of course, like this, I truly feel like this baby is what saved me during that. That time. This baby gave me the strength to. To push through, ask for help, get the therapy that I needed. And, yeah, I. I'm grateful for that. And I can't wait to meet this baby, and I can't wait to tell her or him. I think it's her. I don't know when they're older that they saved me during one of the hardest times of my life. And you're truly the biggest blessing. And I can't wait to tell them all the things that I learned during those moments.
- [87:53]
Nick Viall
Well, that was a very beautiful way to end. I can't thank you guys enough for joining us. And I think you guys have been a great example of how a marriage, like you said, can. Can have its ups and downs and some pretty low lows. And. And if you want to choose to wake up and still choose each other, that there. There's a path forward if you guys want to do that. And, Zach, I just want to say, you know, keep working on yourself. It's nice to see that growth for someone who maybe once was the most hated man in America. I'm glad that you didn't quit on yourself and quit on your marriage and quit on your wife. And I challenge you to. To keep looking in the mirror and finding ways to grow and be a better man. Because I do think the world, especially on tv, needs better examples of how men should be, both to themselves, to their community, and to their partners. So thanks for. Thanks for showing up today and just keep doing what you guys are doing.
- [88:44]
Zach
Yeah. Thanks for having us on. Thanks for giving us a voice and letting us share more of our story. It means a lot. Yeah.
- [88:50]
Jen
Thank you.
- [88:50]
Nick Viall
Thank you guys for listening. We'll see you back tomorrow.
- [88:55]
Zach
Sam.