E943 Ask Nick - My Baby Daddy Tried To Hook Up With My Sister

Summary

The Viall Files - Episode E943 Summary: "Ask Nick - My Baby Daddy Tried To Hook Up With My Sister"

Release Date: June 2, 2025
Host: Nick Viall

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Introduction

In this heartfelt and intense episode of The Viall Files, host Nick Viall tackles complex and emotionally charged listener calls. The primary focus is on navigating toxic relationships, personal triggers, and making difficult decisions for the sake of personal well-being and familial harmony. The episode features three main callers: Josephine, Megan, and Jen, each presenting unique relationship challenges.

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Caller 1: Josephine - Struggling with Past and Present Relationships

Timestamp: [01:02] - [49:17]

Summary: Josephine, a 31-year-old woman, shares her struggles with comparing her past toxic relationship to her current healthy one. Her ex-partner, referred to as her "baby daddy," exhibited problematic behaviors, including excessive drinking and a disturbing incident where he attempted to hook up with her sister.

Key Points:

• Comparison Triggers: Josephine finds herself irritated when her current partner drinks, reminiscent of her ex's drinking problems. This triggers negative emotions, leading her to unfairly criticize minor behaviors in her new relationship.

  "Anytime my current partner is like a little intoxicated... I get really irritated and I'm not very nice about it." ([02:26])

• Fear of Heartbreak: Having endured a painful breakup, Josephine is apprehensive about repeating past mistakes, leading to a protective and controlling demeanor in her new relationship.

  "I'm very scared of heartbreak... I did not handle that breakup well." ([03:48])

• Control Issues: Nick identifies Josephine's tendency to control and compare as a root cause of her anxiety, advising her to focus on the present and communicate without projecting past fears.

  "The key to the relationships is showing up every day and saying, this is the person I choose to be with." ([14:24])

• Effective Communication: Josephine struggles with apologizing without justifying her actions, inadvertently blaming her partner. Nick emphasizes the importance of sincere apologies without deflecting responsibility.

  "Just be wrong and move forward." ([30:53])

• Building Gratitude: Nick advises Josephine to shift her focus from negative comparisons to expressing genuine gratitude and appreciation for her current partner's positive attributes.

  "Focus on complimenting people from a place of gratitude." ([45:36])

Insights: Josephine's case underscores the impact of past relationships on current dynamics. Recognizing and addressing control issues and focusing on gratitude can pave the way for healthier relationships. Additionally, effective communication without defensiveness is crucial for resolving underlying insecurities.

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Caller 2: Megan - Navigating Extreme Beliefs in a Relationship

Timestamp: [52:58] - [119:43]

Summary: Megan, a 26-year-old woman, faces a dilemma with her boyfriend who holds extreme views, particularly believing that the 19th Amendment (women's right to vote) was a mistake. This revelation has led her to question the compatibility and future of their relationship.

Key Points:

• Boyfriend's Beliefs: Megan's boyfriend advocates for the "household vote," a radical and controversial stance that undermines women's suffrage.

  "The household vote basically going back to... women no longer have the right to vote anymore." ([54:24])

• Impact on Relationship: Despite his caring behavior, Megan is troubled by his rigid and potentially harmful beliefs, leading to ongoing tension and uncertainty about their future together.

  "His behavior doesn't seem to align with this belief." ([55:33])

• Communication Challenges: Attempts to discuss his beliefs have met with defensiveness, making it difficult for Megan to find common ground or understand his rationale.

  "He got kind of defensive about me asking." ([56:09])

• Emotional Conflict: Megan grapples with balancing her appreciation for his positive traits with the discomfort caused by his extreme views, fearing future incompatibilities.

  "I have to be careful of ignoring the help you need and then assuming that you're getting it from people who aren't qualified." ([117:26])

• Advice from Nick: Nick encourages Megan to prioritize her and her son's well-being, suggesting that understanding her rights and possibly seeking legal counsel regarding custody and child support may be necessary. He also recommends pursuing therapy to navigate her emotional turmoil.

  "I think the first thing you need to do is... fully understand your rights." ([98:22])

Insights: Megan's situation highlights the complexities of maintaining a relationship when fundamental beliefs clash. It emphasizes the importance of aligning core values and the necessity of open, non-confrontational communication. Seeking professional guidance is crucial when navigating such deep-seated disagreements.

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Caller 3: Jen - Cutting Off a Toxic Ex for the Sake of Her Child

Timestamp: [87:33] - [119:43]

Summary: Jen, a 33-year-old woman, discusses her tumultuous relationship with her ex-partner, the father of her child. The ex exhibited numerous forms of deceit and disrespect, including attempting to engage sexually with her sister and neglecting his responsibilities as a father.

Key Points:

• Toxic Behavior: Jen details her ex's inappropriate attempts to hook up with her sister and his general unreliability, including missing important events like Thanksgiving and neglecting child support responsibilities.

  "He tried to have sex with my sister in my car on Mother's Day." ([88:05])

• Impact on Family: Her ex's actions have severely impacted her relationship with her sister and their son, leading to emotional distress and boundary-setting by Jen and her current partner.

  "My son doesn't want to go see him... he's nine years old and he's getting to the point where he can just..." ([95:48])

• Co-Parenting Struggles: Jen expresses frustration over her ex's lack of involvement and support, despite her efforts to maintain a stable environment for her son with the help of her current boyfriend, who has stepped up admirably.

  "He's so sweet and was like, willing to be on this phone call, but... He's not a father." ([104:28])

• Legal and Emotional Concerns: Jen is conflicted about pursuing child support or legal adoption due to fears of financial strain and potential conflicts, but acknowledges the necessity for her son's well-being.

  "What should I do to help myself?" ([110:09])

• Advice from Nick: Nick advises Jen to consult with a specialized family lawyer to understand her rights and options fully. He emphasizes the importance of protecting her child and herself, advocating for legal measures to ensure her son's safety and well-being. Additionally, he encourages Jen to seek therapy to process her emotions healthily.

  "You need someone who just fully... understand your rights." ([97:08])

Insights: Jen's case illustrates the profound challenges single parents face when dealing with toxic ex-partners. It underscores the importance of legal counsel and professional support in navigating custody and child support issues. Prioritizing the child's emotional and physical safety is paramount.

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Conclusion

Episode E943 of The Viall Files delves deep into the complexities of navigating toxic relationships, the lingering effects of past trauma on present dynamics, and the difficult decisions individuals must make for their own and their children's well-being. Through empathetic conversations and practical advice, Nick Viall provides listeners with valuable insights and coping strategies to handle intricate relationship challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• "The key to the relationships is showing up every day and saying, this is the person I choose to be with." – Nick Viall ([14:24])
• "Focus on complimenting people from a place of gratitude." – Nick Viall ([45:36])
• "You need to prioritize your and your son's well-being..." – Nick Viall ([98:22])

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a testament to the importance of self-awareness, effective communication, and seeking professional help when dealing with complicated relationship issues. Whether grappling with past relationship traumas, confronting extreme beliefs in a partner, or seeking to protect one's child from a toxic ex, listeners are encouraged to prioritize their mental and emotional health through informed decisions and support systems.

Transcript

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[Megan]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal.

[Nick]

They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping.

[Megan]

Guide your finances, our ambition is to.

[Nick]

Make it mean so much more.

[Megan]

Thrivent, where money means more.

[Josephine]

Connect with [e-mail].

[Jen]

You'Re crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Josephine]

Hi, I'm Josephine and I'm 31 years old and I'm struggling to stop comparing my very old, toxic relationship to my very happy new one.

[Nick]

So you're in a relationship?

[Josephine]

I am, yes.

[Nick]

What do you compare the most? Like, what do you. Yeah. Describe what you mean by comparing.

[Josephine]

Yeah, I can give some context. So me and my current partner have been together for about eight months.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Josephine]

He's amazing. Like, he's definitely the healthiest person I've ever been with. He's so kind. It's insane. I'm so in love with him. But what ends up happening? So my personal prior relationship that I find myself comparing, he had a lot of, like, drinking problems, to say the least. And I find myself, like, anytime my current partner is like, a little intoxicated, he's. I mean, he drinks a lot, but not in large amounts, if that makes sense. So, like, he's like a beer a day kind of guy. And I find myself just getting triggered by it. Like, I get really irritated and I'm not very nice about it.

[Nick]

Okay, well, it's good to recognize.

[Josephine]

Yeah. Which is, honestly, it's very hypocritical because I'm. I'm like, I'm. I could probably say I'm a fairly big drinker. I'm in liquor sales, so I am around alcohol like every single day and I socially drink quite a bit.

[Nick]

Okay, what else? I mean, is that the biggest? Is there anything else that you're comparing or is that just the real.

[Josephine]

I think that's honestly the biggest thing. It's. It's. And then, I mean, it kind of causes me to spiral a little bit, and then I'll, like, go into, like, a little hole of other comparisons that I really, in the right state of mind, I don't think are fair. But when I'm in that spiral moment, I will, like, go to those dark places and compare really little petty things like, oh, he doesn't know how to speak about his motion emotions, or he's not doing this, or he's like, you know, really honestly, like, things that, in the right state of mind, I know aren't fair to him.

[Nick]

So when you say compare, you know, you're not necessarily comparing your current boyfriend to your ex and missing things. You're more comparing in the sense that, like, is this seemingly perfect man and seemingly best relationship I've ever had gonna eventually turn into that dog shit relations?

[Josephine]

I survived 100%. Yeah. I'm just. I'm, like, very scared of heartbreak. I did not handle that breakup well. Like, to say the least. It was the darkest time of my life.

[Nick]

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, yeah, the silver lining is if that, you know, usually there's always this one. How many other hub breaks have you had?

[Josephine]

Quite a bit. I'm kind of a serial monogamist. So when I say kind of, I mean I really am.

[Nick]

But what about it sounds like this heartbreak was maybe the worst, or. No.

[Josephine]

We were together for four years in, like, a pivotal time, like 22 to 26, 27. And we moved out of state, so we moved together and we had, honestly, like, a very lovely relationship up until our move. And then he met a ton of really awesome people. I mean, we both made very similar friends. We're both in the service industry, so bartending, serving, that kind of thing. But he just kind of went down the path of drinking and doing drugs and never coming home and just, like, really getting wrapped up in the town that we lived in, which was awesome to some extent and really negative to another. But when we moved together, it was like, really with the idea that we were gonna get married.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And so when you started dating your ex, kind of like, you just said, like, it was. It was good, but then it got bad.

[Josephine]

Yeah. Yeah, it was really good for, I would say, two and a half years.

[Nick]

Yeah. And. And part of that good was him not seemingly having a problem with alcohol in the first two and a half years.

[Josephine]

You know, that's such a good question, because Maybe it was something I didn't recognize as much. I mean, I was younger too, and I was also working in restaurants and bars. We met at the restaurant that we worked at together. So we were going out quite a bit, like, after our shifts. And I think in our move, I was one working a lot less and more excited to be home because it was like, the first house that was like the dream house. And I was more excited to be at home and to be a homebody than he was. So I think I honestly just, like, recognized it more than I did back home in the Midwest.

[Nick]

Yeah, it makes sense.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Well, kind of like you said too, right? Like, I mean, I've never been a big drinker, but in my 20s, I mean, it wouldn't be that crazy for me to go out Thursday, Friday, Saturday night, and two of those nights to get, like, pretty drunk. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which it's like, is a lot more excessive than I drink now. Right. But like, when you're in your 20s and going out, it's pretty normal for a group of friends to, like, kind of, you know, party and party together and go out on a regular basis and. And drink in excess on a regular basis. So it's really kind of hard to tell the difference between the friends who, like, are just, like, yoloing it and the people who, like, maybe have a little drinking problem.

[Josephine]

For sure. You know, I think it's actually a really good point when you bring up friends too, because you asked me if anything else is, like, triggering or like, that. I'm comparing, and this is something that I'm really trying not to be like, ma. Like, I don't want to be, like, mothering him, but I find myself being super protective with some of his friends that do have, like, legitimate issues. And it's like, blaringly obvious, like, at. What do you call it? The casino. I almost said the casino's name. They're like, at the casino a lot and just being unhealthy. They don't have literal jobs. And I find myself being, like, very judgmental, and I don't want to be like that. And when he's with this certain friend, it's really one in particular. I find myself, like, getting anxious and nervous about it.

[Nick]

Well, how does your current boyfriend talk about this friend?

[Josephine]

He's worried about him. He. He's very worried.

[Nick]

Great. Yeah, that's great.

[Josephine]

Yeah, it. But it. But it also. It seems like the only time that they talk about his friends issues is when they're, like, under the influence. So I feel like, there's not a lot of sober conversations that are the.

[Nick]

Only reason I'm not, I'm not looking for your boyfriend to save his friend. You know, it's nice if you can, and it's nice if he's there. The reason I asked that question is because I wanted to know what his perception of his friend, if it matched your perception of that problem. I have friends who I have concerns or have had concerns about their consumption. And I still, you know, I hung out with them and they were still my close friends and I spent a lot of time with them and it was more like, well, I know I'm not worried about having, you know. You're worried because, like, your ex boyfriend allowed himself to get caught up with friends or people who influenced or it felt like influenced his behavior.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But you got to see the difference between your current boyfriend and your ex boyfriend, which is like, he can recognize somehow he can go out, enjoy alcohol socially, be around people, and he can be aware of, of. Of people's over consumption and problematic decisions and the lack, you know, and be concerned for his friends so much. You know, it would be concerning if he was like, I don't know, like, I see it, but my boyfriend just kind of like doesn't. And I don't know, he just thinks his friends is kind of chilling and like, I don't know, like, maybe he thinks he has a problem, maybe he doesn't. He doesn't really bring it up like that. That to me would be like a mild red flag.

[Josephine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

And then I would say, oh, you know, I see why you're concerned. But like, he sees the problem, you know, and you see the problem, you know. So like, you're worried about a guy who's worried about his friend and you're more worried about this friend. He's worrying, worrying about being a bad influence, as if like, this troubled friend is going to sell him on how great his life is that your boyfriend's going to be like, yeah, I want some of that in my life.

[Josephine]

I know. No, you're so right. I know. Can I give you an example of one evening? It was like the only large fight we've ever had.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Josephine]

I was in Chicago for the night and my boyfriend was looking after my dog. We spend a lot of nights together. He knows my dog very well. I was not even in the slightest concerned or worried. But I should clarify. I went out pretty hard and I had a lot of fun. I hadn't seen this friend in a long time. And we like, we Had a lot of fun. So I don't want to sound like a hypocrite because I was out till like three in the morning. But the next day I called my boyfriend just to make sure like that everything was good with the dog. And he was on his way to my place, like in the morning, like at 8am and I'm like, what do you mean you're on your way? And he was with this friend that I have concerns about. Basically he left my dog all night and he's like, no, we walked her at 10pm and now we're on our way back, she's totally fine. And that was incredibly upsetting to me. Like, I've never left my dog overnight without a human to sleep with, like ever. Yeah, I was really, really mad and I just don't think he would have done something like that if he weren't with this person. But also that was his choice. So.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, I, I get why you're triggered, but. Yeah, but yeah, it sounds like more of a trigger rather than, yeah, like, I understand. No one else is like, you haven't left your dog, but like, I think dogs are fine sleeping by themselves.

[Josephine]

But like all night she was probably wondering. I, like, can't.

[Nick]

Probably not.

[Josephine]

I, I, I know, like logically I understand, but I'm, I mean, you understand too because you have dogs. I'm obsessed with my dog and the idea of her being like alone really upset me. I think I just felt more like disrespected. I felt like the fact that he had said he was going to do a thing that he didn't really do.

[Nick]

Sure. I mean, and you had a right to be upset about that. Right. But there's a difference between being upset about the thing that you have a right to be upset about and addressing that thing and saying, hey, that, that made me frustrated. I thought, I thought I could count on you to take care of my, my dog.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you didn't meet my expectations. And I felt, you know, I just felt like you over promised and underdelivered versus getting in your head and being like, what does this mean? You know, are you like, and acting like it was his troubled friend who influenced him and he chose his, you know, he chose to like become an alcoholic over, over, over taking care of your dog.

[Josephine]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I do know. I do know. That's, I think that's what I'm struggling with. Like the, like you said, like, just like the, I make up ideas in my head and I'm very scared of Things going sideways. So I feel like I'm in like constant protection mode.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Josephine]

And I just get frustrated pretty easily and I don't want to be like that because I'm typically a very loving person. And I think he, I think he knows how much I love him, but I definitely feel myself being impatient at times that are unfair. And I see it making him sad. He doesn't even get reactive, but he just gets, like, sad, which makes me sad and feel stupid.

[Nick]

I mean, listen, the reality that you're going to have to face is that you will never be able to prevent or guarantee heartbreak.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Socks. And as we get older, that gets scarier and scarier. In our 20s, we're kind of like, we don't want heartbreak, but I guess we're meant to experience it. And some pun older than me told me I'm going to have to deal with it in order to become like a better version of myself or really learn about myself and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then when we're like in our early 30s and got 40s and we're doing it, we're just like, what's the fucking, what was the fucking point of that? I've already, you know, I didn't need to, I did not need this anymore to learn, you know, type of thing. And like, not every bad thing that happens in our life is meant to be a lesson. I don't think. Again, I don't think things happen for a reason. You can still learn a lesson, you know, it doesn't, like, it didn't hap. You know, the, the world doesn't revolve around us and therefore, like, not everything that happens to us is some sort of destiny. It's just dumb fucking luck, you know, it's just life.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

What you can do, though, is to control what you can control and not try to over control the things you can't control. And you're doing a little bit of the latter.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And, and, and trying to squeeze and protect yourself from things that are just like, outside of your control.

[Josephine]

Totally.

[Nick]

It's still a really new relationship. It is, you know, and I best. I think the best thing you can do to protect yourself is to just say, I, you know, this is really great so far, and I see so much potential, but let's just enjoy, like, enjoy the moment and not think about the future and not, yeah, you can talk about the future, you can talk about your goals, but it's just more like you're gonna have to let it play out, you know, the key to the relationships is showing up every day and saying, this is the person I choose to be with and I'm gonna do the most I can for this relationship today.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And hope that they, the other person feels matches that energy.

[Josephine]

Yeah, I guess when you say that, because I 100% agree. I think obviously like conversation. And when you're like, I feel like we just often, me and my boyfriend, I mean, just get into like deep talks a lot. We're very like chatty all the time. So like, future goals do come up often. And us talking about our future together. And there are times too when I catch it and I just kind of am like, maybe we shouldn't be talking about this. But what, what is your advice for that? Because I don't want to be putting too much pressure on the relationship, but I also don't want to be shutting down just like natural conversation.

[Nick]

Well, I just, I don't know, I think it's a balance. I just think there's a difference between like being intentional with what you want in a relationship as an early 30 something year old person who's like, hey, I'm not here to fuck around that much anymore. Like, I, you know, not sure if you're interested in having children, but if you are, like, there's certain considerations you have to make as a woman that men don't and that's normal, versus, you know, obsessively trying to push a timeline or play house or speed things up because you're 30. And you know, like part, like you talked about part of the reason why your last breakup you up so much because like you said, that was a very transitional time in your life. And I, I bet that you win that relationship thinking, oh, this is it, this is it. I found my person and we moved together. We're making big moves and we're making big life decisions. And then when it ended, it was early 30, late 20. It just felt like you lost four year, four pivotal years of your life, you know, and you never thought you'd be a woman who has to worry about her biological clock, you know, and then it feels like such a trope or cliche or whatever. And it's just then, then we beat ourselves up emotionally by, you know, saying, well, I never thought this would happen to me. And then, you know, you try to, you try to be different and then you kind of again become a little bit more neurotic or intense. And then you force situations because you want to make up for lost time. And these are all the things I think you're you're dealing with, you know, you got a shit ton going for you. You know, you look great. You know, you could be. You could have said, hey, I'm 24. I'm not cool. You know, I wouldn't be like, oh, well, you know, like.

[Josephine]

No, I appreciate that.

[Nick]

You're still young. Science is better than ever, you know, when it comes, you know, and you are one of the few people out there who. It was not that hard to find something better and something you're really excited about and something that feels good. I mean, it's, like, honest. Like, I. It's fucking depressing out there, man. Like, it's. People are just so disconnected. And men and women, when it comes to heterosexual relationships, have some incredibly valid gripes about the opposite sex, but none of us. No, no side Is willing to, like, do anything about it or, you know, and the world today tells us that have. We have every right to blame someone else for our problems, and it's a fudgeing mess out there. And yet you, you know, you. You found a pretty good thing.

[Josephine]

No, I. I totally agree with you. I'm. I'm so grateful. Like, I. I'm so grateful for him literally 99% of the time. And then I feel myself just, like, these moments, and I honestly think it's just, like, when I'm not being nice, like, it's, like, obvious. It's like, I feel it. He feels it. And I don't mean nice like, oh, I'm grumpy. I'm, like, hormonal. I mean, like, when I'm just like. Like, you. Like, you're, like, kind of drunk. I don't want to be around you. But he's not even, like, he's so nice all the time. He's not being.

[Megan]

Like.

[Josephine]

I've had exes that were very, like, reactive on alcohol or, like, mean.

[Nick]

Sure, but, you know, but that's normal. I don't know. Like, when I'm stoned, like, I can know I piss off, like, and I do something stupid when I'm stoned. Now he's 10 times more irritated than me.

[Josephine]

But do you feel like. Does it hurt your feelings?

[Nick]

Hurt my feelings? No. Do I get frustrated at times? Does it. Can it feel a little naggy and a little, like, unnecessary? And does it feel like she's getting mad at me for not the thing I did, but, like, she's just making a mountain out of a molehill type of thing? Sure. Yeah, it can feel like that. Yeah.

[Josephine]

Okay. Yeah. I think that's what I Get nervous about. Because I don't want to drive him away because I'm, like, what you said, like, naggy or acting like I'm on this, like.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Josephine]

Yeah. I just don't want to put myself on, like, a higher. Like, I, like, know everything, and he's younger than me, and I don't want to.

[Nick]

How much younger?

[Josephine]

He's four years younger than me, so he's 27.

[Nick]

Okay. Well, that's something you want to be mindful of.

[Josephine]

Yeah, I'm very mindful. Yeah.

[Nick]

And that's maybe where some of your fears come from.

[Josephine]

Totally. Yeah. Because we're the eight. He's the age that. That I was when I broke my ex. Yeah.

[Nick]

And that. That is a risk. That's a risk. You are dating someone. I mean, I don't know. It's a risk I took. You know, I married someone a lot younger than me who.

[Josephine]

Yeah. Who.

[Nick]

Who I knew still had life to live, that I had already lived. And I. I had to be willing to let that play out, not knowing how. How that could have. You know, it's just, by definition, my. My wife most likely was going to change more than I was going to change.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

In our marriage or in our relationship.

[Josephine]

Well, isn't that interesting, though, because I bet you have changed a lot and maybe. Right.

[Nick]

Yeah. I hope that we've changed together, but, you know, I'm just saying it was, like, a concern of mine and something I do.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Be mindful of. And you're gonna have to still. You're gonna have to challenge yourself to be good at allowing your partner to help you and to challenge and to push you. There's always a power dynamic in any relationship, and it. And I. You know, it changes a lot. And the goal is to try to have that power dynamic, for the most part, be fairly consistent. When I met Natalie, you know, like, I felt very much. In a lot of ways, I felt in control. Well, a lot of which was as a product of me being a lot older and kind of like, you know, my subconscious probably felt like I knew better or knew more, you know? You know, and I'm sure at times it came across as condescending. And that's kind of natural, being older. And that's something you have to be mindful of, and it sounds like you are aware of it, but I am. A lot of your fears maybe come from thinking he doesn't know better and I know better.

[Josephine]

Totally. Yeah. Like, 100%. And it's so stupid. But I. Like, when we first started dating, I. And, and for a while I've kind of had this idea of, like, all things come to an end, right? Like, oh, like we're going to have fun or enjoy each other, even fall in love, and there's just no guarantee. And I was very, like, accepting of that. I was even in a relationship between these two relationships. And we broke up and I was, I handled it really well. It was like a very healthy breakup. But for some reason, I think I just love this guy so much. And so I'm just really scared. It's like I'm on. It's like I'm on this. Like, I don't know. I'm just anxious. Like, I don't. I know that if we broke up, it would be like a complete disaster for me. Like, I would not be okay. Yeah.

[Nick]

I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult. I'm not saying you would have a couple real bad days or weeks or months. You would be okay.

[Josephine]

Maybe.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, listen, if you tell yourself you're not going to be okay, then for a period of time, you won't be. It's like for me, when it comes to heartbreak, the initial pain of heartbreak never gets easier. It actually gets harder. Right? Your first heartbreak, you don't even know what it is you're feeling. It feels like the end of the world. And the scary part about that is you. You, you literally don't know you're going to get over it because you, you've never even been in love, let alone knowing how to get over love. The initial heartbreak, when you get. When you experience it for the second or third or fourth time in your life, the initial pain is sometimes worse because it's like, not again. I'm older. I can't believe this has happened to me again. How am I going to actually move on from that? You know, it's. You're kind of more worried about, like, the future. But what you do know is that you can get over it, you know, and so you can consciously say, I'm, I'm hurting now, I'm in pain now. I feel all these feelings, but I'll get over it. I don't know if it's a week from now or a month from now or two. But I, I do know how to get over someone. I already have done that. There's certain just, like, steps to getting over someone. Right? Like that. It's like anything else, right? So you can and you will, you know, and you just don't know what your. The future holds for yourself. I mean, again, you know, like, again, as a woman, it's different than as a man. Biological clap, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, like, I'm sitting here with you today talking. When I was your age, you could not have convinced me I would be where I'm in today. And then, like, you know, a guy who hosts a pop culture podcast, talking about reality TV and Real Housewives and Bravo and like the Bachelor and, like, interviewing celebrities that I, like, saw on tv, it's like you just never could. So instead of being afraid of the future and what you don't know, the better part of maturing about is this knowing how to. You, you have, you're developing skills to adapt and to be resilient. And, you know, I would, if I were you, I would embrace your resiliency and, and try to think about what, what allowed you to get over that very painful breakup and know that that is in your bag of skills, so to speak. You know, that if you ever need in the future, and maybe it's not, and maybe you'll never have to be emotionally resilient when it comes to your romantic life. Maybe he's your guy, but you're going to have to be resilient in other aspects of your life. There's other forms of heartbreak that, that aren't just romantic relationships.

[Josephine]

Oh, yeah.

[Nick]

You know.

[Josephine]

Yep. No, I agree. I really appreciate everything you're saying. It' I feel like the advice that you're giving me right now is like, what I say to my little sister, like, every time we have a deep conversation, and it's so much easier said than done. And I know, like, what did they say? Like, talk to yourself like you would talk to a friend.

[Nick]

Sure. But, yeah, you know, you don't, you're, you're. Well, I mean, you, you are invested in your little sister's outcome, I guess, to a certain extent, but, like, you're more invested in the outcome of your life, and you're emotionally connected to your life and, and your ego. You have a very loud ego, as we all do. And, and when you're talking to your sister, you know, you're not, you know.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You're just.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

It's very pragmatic. And, and, and, and you don't have to, like, you're, you're, you're talking to me, hearing what I'm saying while you're still hearing voices in your head in a way, you know?

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That's why it's easier to give advice than take it.

[Josephine]

Totally. I was listening to one of your Episodes. And to be honest, I kind of forget which caller it was. But you said something along the lines of, like, oh, like, you know, I have all these callers. They're listening to me in the moment, but then they take that advice however they want to. Because we remember things the way that we remember them.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Josephine]

In our point of view. And then so I was, like, thinking about that a lot while I was in the little waiting room, like, thinking, like, okay, how am I going to take Nick's advice, like, very seriously and logically and not twist it in my head? Because I love doing that. But I think. I think no matter what, I'm just going to struggle with, like, accepting my boyfriend in the moment of this. Like, I guess I just don't know how to get out of my head in those moments when he's reminding me of my ex. Like, it just. I don't know how to talk to him about it. And when I have kind of talked to him about it, he. I think he thinks I'm saying he has a drinking problem, which is, why.

[Nick]

Are you talking to him about it? What's he supposed to do?

[Josephine]

Yeah, yeah, I guess that's. That's another question of mine. Like, is, is there anything that he's supposed to do? Or is he, like, should he be aware that I'm having these feelings? Because.

[Nick]

I think there's a difference between having an awareness and communicating to your partner things that trigger you or insecurities that you have. But it's a fine line between. I don't know if you need to, like, bring it up to him and then especially if there's nothing for him to do about it, you know, because it sounds like as you workshop this problem in your head or talk with me about it, you're, like, kind of recognizing that, like, he doesn't have a drinking problem. And while he doesn't even drink more than me, he just has a friend that is struggling, and he does enjoy spending time with that friend. And every once in a while, he might do something that irritates me, but it's definitely not a sign of any type of overconsumption or anything like that. So, like, bringing it up to him, I'm. Right now it sounds like you're bringing it up to him, expecting him to, like, say or do something to make you feel better.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And if he's not doing anything wrong, like, what is he supposed to say or do?

[Josephine]

I know. I think it's also like, I am an over communicator. Like, whether that's A good or a bad thing, like in every area of life, like work.

[Nick]

Probably both.

[Josephine]

Yeah. Yeah. I communicate a lot and I. I feel like I always have this desire to explain, like, oh, this is why I was rude, or this is why my document was late, which is probably just the most obnoxious thing in the world. But especially when it seems like my boyfriend's feelings are hurt and I feel like a dumbass. I'm like, okay, I need to explain to him why I was, like, spiraling out a little bit.

[Nick]

When was the last time you said I, you know, without an explanation? I was wrong. I'm sorry.

[Josephine]

I don't know if I've ever done.

[Nick]

That and Give it a shot. I'm sorry. But let me explain why isn't an apology. Yeah, you know, it's. I'm sorry you're mad, but I. Let me explain why you should be less mad. It's like, well, Well, I don't. I don't even care about me being mad. I just want to know that you're not going to do this again.

[Josephine]

Totally.

[Nick]

You know?

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So when you're sitting there trying to explain to your boyfriend why you got triggered and why your frustration, how you treated him, what it's. You're. You're justifying your actions, you're explaining what he can do differently so that you don't feel that way, so that you don't do the thing that you had to apologize for. So in a very passive aggressive way, you're kind of blaming him.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

For the thing that you're apologizing for.

[Josephine]

Totally. Yeah.

[Nick]

Just be wrong and move forward.

[Josephine]

Mm.

[Nick]

You know?

[Josephine]

Totally. I think, too, it's like I have to. I just have to figure out how to, like, emotionally remove myself from a moment, if that even makes sense. Like, I. I just need to not engage. The other night, he. He does open mics. He's like. He plays guitar at open mics and it's the cutest thing in the world. But he came home kind of late, which really isn't a big deal, by the way. We don't live together, but we stay together quite often. And he came to my place and I am happy that he's out and about. I'm not like, checking in on him. I'm not, like, texting him. But it was the fact that he was drunk when he came over that irked me. And he was being so sweet. He didn't do anything wrong. He was just telling me about his day and telling me about his night. But for some Reason I was like, oh, my God. Like, I think I said something like, dude, I just am not in the mood to talk right now. I just want to go to bed. Like, we can talk about your day tomorrow. And I was like, really short and rude. And I know that it hurt his feelings because he was excited about his open mic. He was excited about it, and I was just kind of like, shut him down. And I was tired, but I was also just like, annoyed. And I felt like maybe he shouldn't have been driving either. I don't know.

[Nick]

Well, maybe. Can you just say, like, the next day, were you like, I'm. I'm sorry. I. I was so dismissive.

[Josephine]

I think I said something like, I was in a bad mood, like, I apologize or some. I. I said something like that. But I think, like, last night he said something like, I feel like I'm being a bad boyfriend. And I was like, no, you're not at all. Like, he was just feeling kind of, like, stupid. Like, I could tell he just felt kind of dumb, and I don't ever want him to feel that way. And I just.

[Nick]

How often do you thank him or show appreciation or compliment him or make him feel good or just say, you know, every once in a while, just, I'm really lucky to have you and I'm grateful for having you.

[Josephine]

And I don't know, just, I'm a big complimenter. Like, I. It's my favorite thing to do is, like, lift other people, including him. So I. I definitely give a lot of compliments.

[Nick]

It sounds like, honestly, part of some of your anxiety and fears is, like, the fact that, like, you said, like, he's the same age that you were when you started your. You know, and so you are a little older than. I mean, you are in some ways maybe more mature than him. And your. And your boyfriend's still, like, at a stage of his life where it makes sense that he's still going out and staying out a little later.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And that is a product of you having to accept dating a man who's four years younger than you. And.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, and that's where some of the grace for yourself and for him. And so you. You need to acknowledge that is a choice you made. And you might have to, like, at 2 in the morning when he comes home a little buzzed, minus the driving aspect of it. Bite your. Bite your tongue and recognize that you are in a bad mood. And maybe you're not in the mood to deal and still deal and put on the happy face because, like, you chose to date this person and you are going to date this person both for their benefits and accept their, their shortcomings. And the good news for you, some of his shortcomings are a product of his age, which actually might and probably will change as opposed to dating someone you realize. You know, like when I met Natalie, I was like, sorry to break it to you, but I'm probably gonna leave Cabot doors open for the rest of my life and do a bunch of dumb. That's absent minded, that's going to drive you nuts and it's almost certainly never get much better than it is today.

[Josephine]

Yeah, I mean, obviously we all have like our annoying little habits. I mean, I'm severely adhd. I am all over the place all the time, like quite literally. So I know I'm annoying to deal with, friend wise, relationship wise. So yeah, people have to be patient with me.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, so listen, you're as far as like you're going to be triggered by your ex. You know, you sound like you ruminate a lot and overthink, which is fine, but like just get better at doing that by yourself without projecting that onto your relationship or your boyfriend. And when you're like, when you can tell yourself he's not doing anything wrong, it sounds like you're still treating him sometimes like he is. And that will, you know, and if you get frustrated at your boyfriend for things that he's not doing wrong and you're not even asking him to change anything, he's gonna. And that's why he probably said, I feel like I'm being a bad boyfriend. Right. Because you're, you're treating him a certain way and you're expressing a frustration, but you're not giving him. Us men are very solution oriented for the most part. You know, it's like, well, I don't know. I don't want you to feel this way. I don't want to keep doing what you're doing, but I don't even think you're even asking me to change anything. You're, you're, you know, it's like, you know, you're, you're not being like, I don't think you should hang out with Max anymore.

[Josephine]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, it's like you, that would be, you know, that would be like crazy because like you're not gonna stop, you know, it's just like, yeah. And you're, and he's like, well, do you want me to stop hanging out? I don't like. Is that what you're asking? I don't know.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Nick]

What am I supposed to. I don' what the. Like, I don't. Like, am I a bad boyfriend?

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So.

[Josephine]

Yeah. And he's so, like, he's. He probably would. I would never ask him to do that, but, like, that's how he is. So I.

[Nick]

That's the case, though, then I think that. That. That's not a positive sign. That's not a green flag. That's a red flag. That means that you hold a little too much power in this relationship.

[Josephine]

Yeah, no, I. I honestly agree with that. And that's why I think that's something that I'm trying to balance is like, I am nervous that he would do too much for me. And I, like, I care about him so much, too, that when I'm anxious about our. Our breaking up, I actually am anxious about him getting hurt, too. It's like, it's not just me. I'm like, sure. I.

[Nick]

You can't. You can't. You. You can't.

[Josephine]

I know.

[Nick]

You have to let go of some of this control. You have a control. You. You have a control problem. Your heart is going to be broken in the future, I guarantee it. I don't know how. I don't know why. You're going to. Experiencing. You're going to experience pain again. You're going to. You're going to feel victimized again.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But that's a guarantee. So just let that go. Accept it, because you are doing a little too much and it's. You know, you're going to have to let go of some of that power that you think your boyfriend should have in this relationship because you're not letting him have it.

[Josephine]

Yeah, I definitely. I mean, he also was, like, so sweet and was, like, willing to be on this phone call, but. And this is like another control thing. I was like, I just don't know what you're going to say you're going to be. And I was just like. I mean, he ended up having to work anyhow.

[Nick]

But, hey, you didn't let your. You didn't let your boyfriend come to this call because you were afraid of how he might make you look in front of me.

[Josephine]

No, to be honest, I would have let him be on. And I hate using the word let. I. I was excited at first when he was like, I will do it. But then when I was like, okay, like. Like, what do you think about the situation? He's like, I don't know. We're just gonna have a conversation. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's Good. But, like.

[Nick]

Well, I honestly think as much as I love a. As much as I love a mediation, this is a you problem, not a we problem.

[Josephine]

Right, Right, right, right.

[Nick]

I don't know what he's supposed to do.

[Josephine]

Yeah. He would have just been like a sweet little baby, Ange, just like sitting here.

[Nick]

You got to stop talking about your boyfriend like that.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, he's not your sweet little baby.

[Josephine]

Sweet, sexy man.

[Nick]

Yeah. You got to let go of some control. You can't make him embrace the power dynamic in his favor, but you at least have to allow him to. The opportunity to take the shot, so to speak. You know, right now you're not passing him the ball. You're. You're kind of the ball hog.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you can't make him shoot. You can't make him, like, drive the lane, so to speak, but you have to pass him the ball and see if he has the guts to take the shot and take the lead. And, and, and part of your fear of heartbreak, I think, is you trying to control this relationship. And, and, and he's more malleable than. And then as a, A young man who, who, who is a. Well, he's a well intentioned young man. It sounds like he is.

[Josephine]

He's very well intentioned. He's. He's incredibly sweet.

[Nick]

Someday, I don't know why, man is gonna get older and he. Whether. Whether you let him have more power or not, eventually he's gonna want more, and you're far better off to allow it happen rather than make him resent you for realizing you didn't let him have it totally. And that you were a little condescending and acted above him at times where right now he's just kind of excited that he's, you know, dating a mature, hot woman. He was older than him, and he feels kind of like, good about himself and he kind of likes that. But that, that will fade an event. And it's only been eight months. He's going to. Every day that you're in this relationship, he's going to feel more like you're equal.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you're. You're make sure he doesn't have to take that power back. Yeah.

[Josephine]

I'm so happy you're saying that. It's. I do not want him to ever feel like that ever. Yeah. That would be terrible.

[Nick]

Well, it starts by how you talk about him to yourself and to your friends and to others, because I don't think sometimes you even realize the things that come out of your mouth.

[Josephine]

No. That's true. I think, also because I've dated so many, like, people who are just so opposite of him.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Josephine]

And opposite in, like, he's the opposite in a good way. But, yeah, I definitely. I think. I think of him as being, like, really innocent, which maybe accidentally turns into, like, naive in my mind, which is probably, like, you're saying, like, very belittling.

[Nick]

Yeah. Well, to say it like that is this. Yeah. It's like, he doesn't know better to be a dick.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Or maybe he's just not, you know? Maybe he's just not, you know.

[Josephine]

Like, I asked him the other day if he's ever had a fight with his parents or his dad, and he was like, no, I've never, ever. Like, he's like, I would never do that. Like, what's the point? And I'm like, that's amazing, because I. I still fight with my parents to this day, so. Good for you. Like, he's just very even keeled. Like, that's just his personality with everyone in his life. Yeah, it is.

[Nick]

I think you need to be open to. I'm being willing to bet that you haven't mentally even been open to the possibility that you can learn a lot from your boyfriend. I think you have almost minimized what he brings to the table and again, thought of it as this sweet, innocent boy who doesn't know better or whatever. But I think you need to be open to the possibility that your boyfriend, who might be four years younger than you, has a lot to teach you, and that maybe I think you should be open to, like, taking his lead and allowing him to lead. And. And because right now, like, yeah, you're too much. You're. You're too afraid of this thing going south, that you've really taken control of this relationship and his. And because he is younger and because you're so kind of confident, you're just generally. You can tell a generally confident person he's okay with you being in the lead right now, but that will definitely change.

[Josephine]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Okay. I'm really glad that it got to this point, because I feel like I. I was trying to figure out, like, the root of the issue. So I. I definitely don't want that to happen. I don't want to be, like, this ego, gross, like, little naggy lady. Okay.

[Nick]

Yeah. It's less about you being a nag. It's just. You just have to. You. You. It's. Your. Your big problem is control.

[Jen]

Mm.

[Josephine]

And he's been through a lot, so I don't Want to diminish him, like, down to his age. Obviously, like, to an extent, age matters, but he. He's been through so much, so I don't want to diminish that either.

[Nick]

I think you to try to compliment him on things that he has done for you. Like, I'm willing to. I bet. I'm willing. I'm willing to guess that your compliments are more like, I don't know, like a mom, child. Like, you know, it's like you put a gold star on their fridge. Like, not thick. You know, like, you're proud of your kid, but. But you. You. You know, you could do it. And you're complimenting him because he's doing the thing that you did four years ago, and you're proud of him from learning. I want you to look for things to compliment him on, things that you're like, you know, since I've been with you, you've taught me a lot about this. And since I've been with you, this is something you've helped me. Does he help you be your best self? I hate the phrase he helps me be a better person, because that's entirely up to you. But does he make it easier or harder for you to be a better person?

[Josephine]

So much easier.

[Nick]

And how does he inspire you? And those are the ways you should compliment him. Things that you know, he doesn't get from you. You're not proud of him that he's taking your advice. Like a parent would say to a child, you're not proud of him because he's cute up on stage. But you could say, I don't have the guts to do what you do. Like, open mic. Every. Like, that takes guts. You're brave. Like, honestly, I don't know. Like, that's. I wish I had that. And. And find ways to compliment him like that. Not something like, it's cute that you do that. Like, I don't know. I think it's pretty brave and cool and that bravery is going to, like, help in other aspects of his life. You know, I'm. Something I find really attractive about you is how much, you know, you have courage. Like, you're not afraid, you know? You know, you got to make sure you, you know, want to. Don't say it in a way that it's just like, what do you mean, brave? Do I suck? Yeah, you're good at complimenting him, but I'm willing to bet sometimes your compliments feel a little condescending. And I say that as someone who has gotten that feedback.

[Josephine]

Yes, totally.

[Nick]

For Myself.

[Josephine]

No, I appreciate that a lot. That's such a good point. Oh my God. Okay, well, so basically what I'm getting from this phone call and let me know how you feel if this feedback makes sense to you. That I need to put more of my energy into like being thankful and grateful for what I'm learning on a day to day basis, what I see in him, why I'm actually with him, versus these things like his drinking habits. Like maybe I just need to really practice like, similar to practicing like looking in the mirror and complimenting myself. I can look at him and think of reasons why I love him.

[Nick]

Yeah. You said you like to compliment people. You do that as a kindness and it makes you feel good to make other people feel better. I want you to focus on complimenting people from a place of gratitude.

[Josephine]

Yes.

[Nick]

You are grateful for what these people have done for you. And as a result you want to compliment them on how, what. Because you are grateful for what they've brought to your life.

[Josephine]

I love that.

[Nick]

Not because it makes you feel better.

[Josephine]

Yeah. Or not just like something that I think is going to lift them up in the moment, but something I've actually put thought into.

[Nick]

Yeah. Because again, when you say that like, that it's like you're doing the kindness. Here's. I'm, I'm lifting them up, I'm making them feel good, I'm inspiring them, you know, like, like, again, not like, wow. I, you know, think it's. Again, it's coming from a place of gratitude. Not. Yeah, not, not like you're helping.

[Josephine]

Totally.

[Nick]

Okay, how does he help you?

[Josephine]

Are you asking me or are you just wanting me to think?

[Nick]

It's a general thought. I mean, but yeah, think about it and you know, I'm sure there are lots of ways. Well, it's a, you know, you just got to tweak your thought process a little bit, you know, and again, it's a relatively new relationship, but you know, and the fact that you called it, you sense the disconnect. So it's, it's just, you know, but.

[Josephine]

Yeah, I guess, like, it's like preventative. Like I just want to. I, I think there's like a balance and I, I am on the complete other end of the balance where it's like, oh, we live and we learn and then I hyper fixate on what I've learned and I'm, it's like I'm applying it way too intensely to this present moment instead of living in the moment.

[Nick]

Yeah. Because part of it is again, it's control. Like you, you're hoping that you can learn from past mistakes to avoid ever feeling the mistake again. And that's not possible, you know?

[Josephine]

Yeah. Okay.

[Nick]

All right.

[Josephine]

Okay. Well, I appreciate you so much.

[Nick]

Thanks for calling in. Always good to hear a new unique situation. But like, listen, you have. It's a lot sounds like you should be happy for and grateful for and just again, be mindful of how much control you need in any given situation. Allow your boyfriend to take more control or have more control, but you can't make him. You just have to let go of your control and see and pass on the ball. Just it's passing the ball and shut the up, you know, it's not passing the ball and then immediately be his coach.

[Josephine]

Oh, my God. I know. I do that.

[Nick]

Well, just recognize it, you know?

[Josephine]

Okay.

[Nick]

And then when it comes to complimenting him, you're not complimenting him as a coach or a parent. And you're not doing it to make him feel good. You're doing it from a place of gratitude.

[Josephine]

Yeah, Yeah. I want him to feel genuinely good about himself. Okay. I appreciate it. I'm gonna. I'm. I'm gonna be thinking about this all day and I'm gonna write a little list of all the things that I love about him.

[Nick]

Maybe just think about it for an hour and write it down and then not again. Because you stop obsessing.

[Josephine]

Hyper fixate. Okay. Okay.

[Nick]

I don't think this is an all day exercise. It might be a five minute exercise every day.

[Josephine]

Okay. Okay. I like that. Five minute exercise. Okay.

[Nick]

All right.

[Josephine]

Okay. Well, thank you so much. It's so nice to meet you and thank you for your advice. As you are aware, I'm gonna really take it to heart and. Yeah, I appreciate it.

[Nick]

All right. I appreciate you have a great rest of your day.

[Jen]

Okay, you too. Bye.

[Josephine]

Bye.

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[Nick]

We are certainly aware of all the reasons why therapy seems hard to get into, whether it's hard to find a good therapist, it's expensive, it's inconvenient. Well, BetterHelp helps alleviate all of those pain points. You can switch therapists every time until you land on someone new. Natalie just mentioned how many different therapists they work with and it's incredibly convenient. All you need is a phone, tablet, computer and you can do it wherever, whenever you need. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with Better Help Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com v I a l l that is better help h lp.com v I a l l Craving your next action packed adventure? Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. From electrifying suspense and daring quest to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms. Unleash your adventurous side with gripping titles that keep you guessing. Exclusive Captivating Audible Originals Hotly anticipated new releases Must listen bestsellers that hook you from the minute. Whether it's heart pounding suspense like the Audible original, Mad Love or fantasy romance adventure like Onyx Storm or a listen with the lights on epic like Stephen King's latest Never Flinch. Plus more big releases like Freedom McFadden's the Tenant and Amelia Hart's the Sirens. Audible has over a million audiobooks, podcasts and originals all in one easy app. I recently downloaded the Terminal List many of you have probably watched on Amazon. It's also an excellent book if you like an action packed adventure that is definitely a Go to the Terminal List by Jack Carr. Start listening and discover what's beyond the edge of your seat. New members can try Audible now for free for 30 days and dive into a world of new thrills. Visit audible.com v I a l l or text v I a l l to 500. 500. That's audible.com v I a l L or text vile to 500. 500 how's it going?

[Megan]

It's going well. My Name's Megan, I'm 26 and my boyfriend thinks that women's suffrage was a mistake.

[Josephine]

Mistake.

[Megan]

And I don't know if I should end it.

[Nick]

Okay, what do you mean by women's suffrage?

[Megan]

His exact words were that the 19th amendment was a mistake.

[Nick]

What's the 19th amendment?

[Megan]

The women's right to vote.

[Nick]

Jesus Christ. And how serious do you think he is?

[Megan]

We've had many conversations at length.

[Nick]

And what, what even caused you guys to even get to the point where he felt the need to say something as ridiculous as this?

[Megan]

Yeah, so we were out with a group of friends getting drinks. It was me and a bunch of our guy friends. And briefly, the conversation about like, oh, would you be okay with like your girlfriend or whoever making more money than you kind of came up. And so that was already the, the tone of the conversation around drinks. And then I ended up talking to this guy who's more peripherally in the friend group. I didn't know him very well. Turns out he's has some very conservative views and he said that he's a proponent of the household vote that's kind of been floating around in some media a little bit.

[Nick]

So I, I'm not familiar. What is the household vote?

[Megan]

The household vote basically going back to there's one vote per household, so women no longer have the right to vote anymore and the man votes like for the representation.

[Nick]

Where is that being floated around?

[Megan]

I mean, I've seen it just floating around on, on social media and like in some news articles of some very far right conservatives supporting this.

[Nick]

Gotcha. All right, yeah, let's. Yeah, we just have to be careful to not, you know, that's the problem with the Internet is sometimes the, the, the extremes on both sides of which I'm terrified equally of both have way too much of a voice. And because of the shock value of the extremes, they get brought up in conversations and yada yada. Anyways, that being said, your boyfriend sounds like he took the bait a little bit.

[Megan]

Well, so, yeah, so this guy said that. So I turned to my boyfriend asking him if he believes in the household vote, thinking it was going to be like a hell no response. And then he said, well, I think the 19th Amendment might have been a mistake.

[Nick]

And then what did you say?

[Megan]

I didn't really say much. I kind of was just like, you really think that? And he was like, yeah. And then I actually ended up leaving. So I left him there with everybody because I didn't want it to turn into an argument, you know, in front of the friend group, out in public, and thought it might be better to talk about it at home.

[Nick]

Sure. And then you. Did you.

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Oh, yeah. We were up for hours that night talking about it. And then again, how did, how did.

[Nick]

I get him curious? How did you, when you came home, if you remember, how did you broach the subject or get the conversation started up again?

[Megan]

I mean, I was like, I think we just need to talk about what you said at the bar. Like, do you really think that women should have never been given the right to vote?

[Nick]

Okay. And then he said.

[Megan]

And he was like, well, it's a little more nuanced than that.

[Nick]

Okay. You know, and then you said.

[Megan]

And I was like, okay, so walk, walk me through your thought process.

[Nick]

At any point early in this debate, did you ask him, what role do you see me playing in your life if we get married?

[Megan]

Yes. So that came later, after I had spoken to my therapist about this.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Megan]

And that didn't go over very well either, to be honest. Like, he, he went over his beliefs in the conversations that we had, and then when we had a third conversation, that's where I started asking. I actually framed it as like, knowing that you feel this way. You know, what are your thoughts on the fact that women can get college degrees and have like, high power jobs, like they can be doctors and CEOs and attorneys. And do you just envision having a wife that's barefoot and pregnant? Like, she's just a homemaker and having kids, and that's what she does for you. And he didn't really like that. He got kind of defensive about me asking, well, if this is your belief, you know, how does that extend into other areas?

[Nick]

Was that your version of asking what I asked you?

[Megan]

What do you mean?

[Nick]

Well, I asked you at any point in that conversation, did you ask him specifically? Problem with sometimes conversations like this? Right. And what the point I'm trying to make is, this isn't about the 19th amendment as far as you and your boyfriend are concerned, and this isn't about whatever radical conservative beliefs anyone else thinks or feels this has your concern and why you're even thinking about breaking up with your boyfriend is you're wondering if these potential radical beliefs that your boyfriend may have, how does it apply to you in your relationship and how he treats you, Right? And, like, what role does he want his wife to play? And what role does. Like, what kind of relationship does he want? And what kind of dynamic does he want in a relationship? Because sometimes when we have these conversations, it gets into the weeds, and at the end of the day, you just want to know is. Is. Are you potentially marrying some, like, guy who's been radicalized by, like, some dark web, like, red pill, like, fucking aggro, aggressive guys who, like, might have some weird fucking demands once you get married of his wife being potentially you? Because that's your concern.

[Megan]

That's my concern. So I did ask him, like, if we were to be married, would you just want me at home having a. Having a bunch of babies?

[Nick]

What do you say that?

[Jen]

He.

[Megan]

He doesn't. I, you know, I asked him, like, do you see yourself getting married? Do you see yourself having kids? What does that look like? And he didn't really have a great answer. It was kind of just like, whatever happens will happen. How old are you? He's 33.

[Nick]

What's his back? Like, what. What's his child? What's his background? Like, what's.

[Megan]

Tough family life, which I think is contributing to him not wanting to commit to, like, I know I want a wife and kids.

[Nick]

Okay. How old are you again? 20. 20.

[Megan]

I'm 26.

[Nick]

26. He's 33. So where are we now?

[Megan]

I mean, now things are just kind of weird. I mean, he used to. He lives really close to me, so he used to, like, stay over every night. I've definitely taken a couple nights where I was like, I just want to be by myself. And the. The vibe's just kind of off. We've had a conversation about the fact that things are off, but I feel like we've, we haven't fully dove into like, what are all of my doubts in the situation because now it's gone from just this statement or this belief about the 19th Amendment to like, are there all these other incompatibilities?

[Nick]

Sure. I mean, did, I'm assuming you asked, but like, does he like just generally have a less respect for women than he has for men?

[Megan]

So I asked and I, you know, said that hearing that, you know, makes me feel like you might think that women should go back to being second class citizens. I'm not sure I phrased it exactly that way. And we had a whole conversation because he's, he's not disrespectful to me. I've never seen him be disrespectful to other women. I think he would give the shirt off his back to anybody who needed it, even if it was like a stranger. And so his behavior doesn't seem to align with, with this belief. And so he's like, why can't you just see me for my behavior and get over this belief that I have?

[Nick]

Well, because it's a pretty radical belief and if you really believe it and it's a hill you're willing to die on, then eventually it is going to impact your actions.

[Megan]

Yeah, that's my concern. Even though, I mean, if it's not.

[Nick]

That big of a deal and if it's. He was saying it for shock value to piss off his girlfriend night at the bars because he just felt like being a little toxic. Toxic, that's one thing. But the fact that he's kind of like, no, I mean, I really kind of actually think this way. It's concerning.

[Megan]

Yeah. So I'm grappling with that.

[Nick]

The way your boyfriend sounds, you know, it's just like, so why do you believe that? You know?

[Megan]

Yeah, and he says if he read or found evidence to the contrary, he's open to his opinion changing, but all evidence points to it might have been a mistake in his eyes.

[Nick]

Okay, so why, I mean, he's not here to ask, but why? What is his evidence that it might have been a mistake?

[Megan]

He says things like, men used to like, listen to women's opinions more before they had the right to vote. So they actually had more of a voice before. And then we get into the argument of like, maybe that's not the case. And just because they can state their opinion doesn't mean there's any power in that without a vote and now, like, households are more divided between, like, husband and wife. And this is in, like, a very much like traditional husband, wife, household kind of lens. But they're less united. They're not focusing on talking things through and coming to a mutual decision. It's more focused on partisan politics. And maybe they vote against each other just to cancel each other out versus, like, having those conversations and being a united front.

[Nick]

That's crazy.

[Megan]

Jesus.

[Nick]

I mean, listen, like, Natalie and I, we're not very political in general. We have very similar beliefs in a lot of things. We don't talk about politics almost ever. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that we're not completely aligned on every topic, but we don't give a fuck. And we very much, when it comes to our household, I like to think, I don't, I don't like using the words conservative or progressive because now, like everything else, it's become almost radicalized and triggering for people. But like, like, we very much focus on being a team, and we very much focus on being a partnership. But, like, we just don't allow politics to dictate our, you know, policy. You know, like, I know a lot of people out there. I mean, they might even be listening. That's such a privilege to, you know, you know, it's like a lot of people, you know, that's, yeah, maybe it does come from a place of privilege, but I, I, I'm. Politics are not my religion. And I do think it's, you know, I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but I do think as human beings, we need a belief system. We need to believe in things greater than ourselves. You know, we need a purpose in life. You know, what is that purpose? Right. And I'm not much of a religious person anymore. I grew up very religious. I'm very familiar with a religious household. I'm comfortable with it. And unlike other people, I generally had a pretty positive experience with my religion. My reasons for not being very religious are just like, I don't know. I just. Yeah, it doesn't really matter. But my point is, we, us humans, we need a belief system, and we've replaced traditional religion with other things. And one of it is being politics. People now treat their, their politics like a religion. Like it's, you know, you're gonna burn in hell if you believe in one thing or the other. I think that's absurd. I think, you know, I think we, that we're worrying about so many things outside of our control, and we need to worry about what shows up at our front door. And I think a lot of partnerships, boyfriend and girlfriend, husband and wife, whatever. Spend too much time arguing about things like politics for the sake of being a right. And they're wasting all that energy when they could just be taking better care of themselves and each other or their children. And it's not. It's not coming from a place of privilege. It's just coming from, like, you got one life. Are you going to spend most that life arguing with your neighbors? You can be involved. You know, you can have a political belief. You can even stand up for those beliefs and debate people you disagree with. You can vote and you can do your part, and it doesn't have to consume and control your whole goddamn life. And that doesn't mean you're just some privileged person who has the benefit of, like, you know, like. And my dad taught me a very important lesson, you know, when I was, you know, a lot of time. You're right. It is all privilege and a lot of people arguing about politics and a lot of people saying and criticizing other people who say things like, I'm not as political. They're privileged, too, for having that belief about the other privileged people. Because most of the time, if you have the benefit of. Of arguing about stuff like this, that means that you're not worried about, like, how you're getting your next meal and if you can afford your rent and where your kids are going to get, you know, because they're. Most people out there don't even have the benefit to argue about politics because they're literally trying to survive. That all being said. Yeah. I don't know. It sounds like your boyfriend's a bit radicalized or a bit lost, you know.

[Megan]

And I can't tell the difference because.

[Nick]

Maybe that doesn't matter.

[Megan]

Yeah, because, like, I was having a week where I was busy and stressed out. So, like, he's helping me put away my dishes that he didn't even use, and he's taking my dog on a walk, and he's doing things around the house to help me out, which I feel like kind of contradicts. I don't know what you might expect from someone who thinks the 19th Amendment was a mistake. So it's just.

[Nick]

Well, yes and no. I don't know. I think it's a fine line. I think you could find a lot of incredibly conservative, almost radically conservative men who 98% of the time make some pretty great husbands and. And who are. Who want to help and be and take care, you know, it's like, if you're thinking more traditional men, it's just like a lot of what they do, it could be very positive in a sense because they are taking care of the people they love. But the problem was when it gets to the extreme, the problem is they're part of that belief isn't like they're taking care of the people they love because they love to. They think they're taking care of people they love because the people they're taking care of can't take care of themselves. And is he taking care of you because he loves and respects you and thinks you're more than capable of doing all these things, or is he doing it because it's his job and honestly, you can't survive without him? It's a fine line.

[Megan]

Yeah, I think in his case, I think it's more of the former. But I also feel like he's kind of overcompensating now because we've. And having these discussions and we know things are off that. I feel like he's almost trying too hard.

[Nick]

There are certain just beliefs out there that are pretty messed up. And if you are serious about backing up messed up beliefs, it really. Just because you haven't done it yet doesn't mean I'm. It's okay to still believe in something is, is. Is radical as what you're saying. You know, I guess I'm just confused. If you really don't believe it, why you will need to die on this hill. And if we're trying to give your boyfriend the benefit of the doubt, you know, it's like, what are you trying to say that you're, you know what I'm saying? Because like, maybe it's not about the 19th amendment or this radical, like, but what, what are you trying to say that you're using this argument to try to make that comes across as radical. But like again, you, I've never, you know, I'm dating you and I never thought I'd be dating a radical conservative man. But like, you're kind of sounding like one. So I'm just, I'm confused, you know? So like, what the fuck are you trying. What? What?

[Josephine]

What?

[Nick]

You know, why is he dying on this hill? I don't, you know, is it being right? Like, what? Why?

[Megan]

He's always been very firm in his beliefs, you know, I'd rather him tell me than hide it because he knows I don't like it.

[Nick]

That's fair. But like, again, like, if you thought incest wasn't that big of a deal, just because you haven't fucked a sibling doesn't like make it not weird that you think it's not a big deal. Honestly, maybe, maybe that, that, maybe that analogy will make him see what you're seeing. Just be like, okay. And you can say like, this is what I'm struggling with. This is why I'm having a hard time letting this go. Because you saying that feels kind of. I mean, I. I'm having a hard time adjusting. And you're saying, well, I haven't, I don't act that way. I don't do those things, so why are you making it about me? And you could say, well, if you told me you were okay with again, using this kind of crazy incest, whatever. If I told you I didn't think incest was a big deal and that like, I don't know, I just don't think it's that weird. And maybe people, we should allow siblings to like get married and have kids just because I didn't sleep with my brother. Wouldn't that bother you, knowing I believe that.

[Megan]

Yeah, that might be a good way.

[Nick]

To phrase it because that's how. Yeah. And you'd be like. Because that's kind of how you're sounding to me. And I don't know, I want to be with the person if one day they might real. I might wake up and realize that they voted against my right to vote.

[Megan]

Because he says that he doesn't think we should take it away now. But I'm like, it worries me that you might think that if it were to ever come to that.

[Nick]

But the fact that he doesn't think it's a non negotiable is concerning.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

What about like women only be allowed to vote and not men? How about that? Like if it's a household vote, like, why? Why not?

[Megan]

He doesn't think that's the same.

[Nick]

Yeah, why not?

[Megan]

He doesn't think that's the same.

[Nick]

Why not?

[Megan]

He doesn't have a great response.

[Nick]

I mean, like, men have started more wars than women ever have there.

[Megan]

He made a comment at one point about like women being more emotional than men and that really upset me. Like, because we might be more emotional, we're gonna make poor choices with our vote.

[Nick]

I mean, I'm ashamed to say that the younger version of me had thought that way about. Not about this particular topic, but. So then maybe there's just some immature ignorance on his part. I wasn't 33. I know that I was more like 19, but.

[Megan]

And that makes a difference.

[Nick]

Yeah, but you know Again, if he wants to make a silly argument there. Again, there are a lot of tropes and stereotypes of men that are, there's a lot, there's a lot of truth to. Again, if you know the emotional, it's like, well, how many wars have women started compared to men? Women are more emotionally regulated compared to like their, their egos meant, you know, like what men have, have killed millions of people in the name of being right or feeling more powerful or you know, being greedy. So what about that? And the truth is it's kind of silly for you guys to have this argument and you know, and that, that's what I want to know. It's just like I want to know if I'm you, I want to know why is this a hill you're trying to die on? Other like, is it just about being right? And like what, what point are you trying to make if any, if anything, you know, because like he needs to at least at a minimum for you to stay in this relationship. I think he needs to at least acknowledge that analogy. The fact that he is, is, is condoning this thought process that it's concerning from, from your point of view. Because whether it's now or later, he's describing a world that you want nothing to do with. And you don't want to condone that type of, of radical belief. You don't want to live in a world where it's like women like can't vote or are treated like second class citizens. Would you want to walk around being like, yeah, you know, I love my wife, my girlfriend, she just is weirdly okay with pedophilia, but other than that, she's pretty, she's chill. And by the way, just, you know, she has not ever victimized a child as far as I know. But she does think it's not that big of a deal. Like, what do you. That would, that. Is that what.

[Megan]

Yeah, absolutely not.

[Nick]

Would he be down for that?

[Megan]

Like, probably not. And he'd come up with some reason why it's, it's different.

[Nick]

I mean, that doesn't make it so. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, let's like you might have to break. I don't know. Listen, either, either, either he really means it or he's too, he's too stubborn for his own good. And like, you know, this is kind of silly and we don't even know how serious it is in a weird way, but like, it's weird.

[Megan]

And if, I mean, we've probably talked about it for like hours at this Point. And he's not giving up his stance. He just, if anything, seems to think I'm misunderstanding because it's as bad as I think.

[Nick]

What am I misunderstanding? Because this is how I see it. And then you give them that analogy that we talked about, like, and then ask him what then that cut of my point. What is the point you're trying to make and forgetting about. Take, take. Don't use political terms. Forget about the 19th Amendment. What is the point you're trying to make and why? And what's the outcome you're trying to accomplish? Like, you know, if he's just arguing for the sake of being right, then, like, you're. This is annoying. And all. All it's caused me to do is kind of think you're a different person or less of you, just for. Just so you can win an argument. Because, yeah, I don't know, maybe he's so stubborn, he needs to be right. That I wouldn't ignore this. I definitely wouldn't let it go.

[Jen]

Yeah, well.

[Megan]

And I think part of the issue now is just how he's responded to it. Like, when I start asking, okay, what. How do you envision your life? Like, do you envision yourself getting married, having kids? What does that look like?

[Jen]

He.

[Megan]

He basically said that he finds that type of conversation to be completely unhelpful, but he's willing to have it if it's helpful for me.

[Nick]

Does it relate to this argument or, like, as just this whole separate.

[Megan]

I. I think in general, like, he. He said that he prefers to just kind of figure out those thoughts and beliefs as you go versus, like, sitting down and actually communicating. Like, this is what I see my life looking like. He finds that to be unhelpful.

[Nick]

Having goals, he finds unhelpful.

[Megan]

I don't know about having goals, but.

[Nick]

Isn'T that what it is?

[Megan]

I guess so, yeah.

[Nick]

And so that's like, do you. What do you want? I don't know. Goals might change, but, like, it's good to have them. Especially, you know, like, what.

[Megan]

His only. His only goal is that he wants to be, like, extremely independent and, like, live on a farm and grow his own food. And, like, I don't want to live on a farm.

[Nick]

So why are you dating this guy? I mean, he doesn't know what he wants. He doesn't even know if he wants to have kids or get married. He might be radical, and even his goal is a little radical. I mean, I'm all for, like, as I've gotten older, I've. I, You Know, I've always liked a busy city. I've always lived in a city is now that I'm a little older, I, I, I've definitely enjoyed a more quiet life. That's cool. But like a 33 year old man, all he wants to do is live on a farm and grow his own food in case like, you know, the, the radical left takes over. Like that's how he sounds like.

[Megan]

Yeah, I guess that's kind of where I'm at now. Like there's this issue, but it's now spiraled into like I feel like there's so many incompatibilities popping up. But what I'm having a hard time with is he treats me well, I enjoy spending time with him and I'm just grappling with, you know, what's, is it worth it or not?

[Nick]

Yeah, it's a tough situation but, but treating you well is nice. Enjoying his. Those are, those are good. But like I don't his. You guys have to want to set, you gotta, you want to have to want the same things and maybe your non negotiables aren't aligned and he's a pretty good boyfriend. But you know, I wouldn't waste these years on someone you're just not compatible with.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, so I think you need to, I think to help yourself, you need to do your part in the not needing to be right argument. You need to stop, you know, forget about the 19. I mean it's a crazy conversation, but what this conversation has done for you is made you question and made you realize that you don't know if you and your boyfriend want the same things. And you are still really young but at a very pivotal time in your life that you do not want to waste these, these are great years, 26 great years. And you shouldn't waste it on, on people who don't know. You know, you, you might, you know, like, yeah, so like it's, you just want to be mindful of that, you know. So you're going to change this conversation of like I don't. Are we compatible? And just, and not throw it like an accusation. Just be like, I don't know, maybe we're not like, you know, just. And do you know that you want to get married and have kids?

[Megan]

I know that I'd like to be married. I'm very leaning towards the no kid side, open to the fact that I.

[Nick]

Might change my mind just as a general cure. I'm just generally curious as why I.

[Megan]

Just, I don't have this burning desire to be a mother. I have a dog. I love being a dog mom.

[Nick]

Okay. I just, I was just curious. I just, I, I, and I don't want to seem like I'm, I'm not trying to push you in any one direction. It's just more like there is definitely a, A, When I talk to younger people, this mentality that, like, what's the point? Because life is trash and the world's on fire and that I hate for people.

[Megan]

Yeah. I don't think I come at it from that view. It's just like, I'm very career oriented and entrepreneurial and I want to travel and I just don't, I don't see like, oh, I have to be a mother for my life to be fulfilling.

[Nick]

Great. Awesome. So I don't know again. So then maybe in that department you guys are compatible because he doesn't know either. But yeah, I, I would just pose the question that, it's just weird that he's very stubborn about this topic. And it's, it's a crazy, it's crazy. I've never, I, it's crazy. It's alarming.

[Megan]

I don't, I mean, I never would have asked him. I did not expect this at all. I never would have posed the question. I thought he would fully say that was crazy. So I was not expecting that.

[Nick]

I consider myself to be fairly moderate, you know, Like, I, I, I have points of view that I think are probably generally more conservative than others. And I have points of view that are pretty progressive. And that sounds fucking radical to me, man. Like, I don't, it's just like a crazy. If someone, I would just be like, what website were you on, dude? Like, what, what do you, like, who you've been listening to, you know?

[Megan]

Yeah, I don't know where he found this. I, I've talked about this with very few people, but that was actually a question my mom had and she was like, where is he reading this? Where is he getting this idea? And I have no idea because if.

[Nick]

I, if I'm you, that's the, that's more of the concern because it can't, it didn't come from, it came from somewhere. And why is he, who is he? Who are, who are his circle of influence? Because maybe it's just like a petty fight now, but if, if he continues to consume or surround himself with the people who are planting these very radical thoughts in his head, then these radical thoughts for him will only become more normalized and he's going to start maybe acting on, I don't know. But, like, I would find out where this came from. And if he. If he can't acknowledge that it's a radical point of view, even if he thinks he's right, then. Then that's a. That's. I wouldn't let that go.

[Megan]

Yeah, I don't think I could let that go personally either. Just, like, it's hard to let go of all the good things. I don't know.

[Nick]

No, I totally get it. Yeah. It's just. Listen, this is a very unique. I. I'm kind of like. I'm like. I'm kind of wondering if you're with me. No, I mean, I know very much not. I wish I was only because, like, yeah. You know, clearly talking to you, like, it's. I'm like, how did this. How did a woman like this end up dating a guy like that in the first place? You know? Because that's what's coming.

[Megan]

I never thought I'd be here, I'll tell you that. But I've thought that before, so, you.

[Nick]

Know, the best thing you can do as far in terms of, you know. Because ultimately you called in, trying to get some clarity. Right. And I don't know how much I offered, other than, like, commiserating with the shock of your situation, is you try to have to, again, not make it about this political conversation or the 19th Amendment. And you have to try to not be accusatory or make him feel stupid, but generally curious as to why he thinks that way and push him when he says, well, I don't know, I just do. And get him to acknowledge, well, fair enough. But like, that. That's the part that is concerning to me, because this is how I hear it, and then give him that analogy. And if. If he just wants to be right, fine. But, like, in good conscience, you wouldn't want to date someone who thought blank was legal and vice versa.

[Jen]

Okay.

[Nick]

All right.

[Megan]

I've been kind of dealing with, like, do I have this conversation right now or do I take a step back because I feel like I haven't had a ton of time to myself to even process everything and think about what I want. Do you think it's more beneficial to sit down and have that conversation first or to take a couple days and then have it?

[Nick]

I don't know if it really matters. I mean, what's the rush?

[Megan]

Yeah, I guess there isn't a rush.

[Nick]

If you feel like right now processing that. I don't know. I guess if there's no reason to be hasty, then don't Be hasty. And if you feel like you just kind of want to sit with it for a while, then sit with it. But in the meantime, he clearly understands that you're upset about this, and he has the opportunity to try to do something. And maybe that's why you want to sit and wait, because you want to see if he's going to knock on your door and be like, hey, I'm sorry. I was just kind of being an ass. And I'm realizing that now, and I don't actually think that way. And. But I don't know if that's the case.

[Megan]

It's been a few weeks, so I don't think I'm gonna get that. I think it's more of, like, I might either, like, eating, working, sleeping, or I'm with him. And so, like, my head's all, like, not clear on, like, are we even compatible in other ways?

[Nick]

Take some time to think about that. And, you know, that's the thing. That's. If there's a silver lining here, maybe it's raised some valid questions that you need to take some time to think over. Because what I'm hearing is maybe if you do decide to end this relationship, you don't want it to be over some random thing he said. Right. Because that almost feels trivial. It's just like. And that's kind of how he's acting and saying. Seeing it is this. Like, are we really gonna break up over this bar conversation?

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And, I mean, his. He was talking to someone a while before he and I started seeing each other. And the reason they stopped seeing each other was because she disagreed with his political views so much. And so when this was kind of coming up, he was like, it's happening to me again. And I don't. I don't know if I want to just be, like, the number two on that list of girls, but maybe I need to be.

[Nick]

Well, to me, that's, like, kind of a red flag. I mean, he's not seeing the problem if he's acting like a victim here. Your views are radical, bro.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And most. You know. And that, you know, if you need to be around a radical person.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Well, he's not going to find one where we live, I don't think. But he can try, I guess, if I decide to end it.

[Nick]

Yeah. Well, he. He's clearly very stubborn, and he is. He's choosing to act like the victim in a situation where he's definitely not.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Which I think is a bit of a red flag.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Megan]

That he's acting like him.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

All right.

[Josephine]

Okay.

[Nick]

All right, well, take care. I please give us an update. I need to know where this.

[Megan]

Oh, I definitely will.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Megan]

I listen to you every week, so I appreciate it.

[Nick]

I definitely want to know what you end up doing.

[Megan]

I'll let you know.

[Nick]

Very fascinated.

[Megan]

I'll let you know.

[Nick]

All right.

[Megan]

Thank you so much for your time.

[Nick]

All right, bye.

[Megan]

Bye.

[Nick]

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[Nick]

How's it going?

[Jen]

It's doing good. How are you?

[Nick]

Good. What's your name?

[Jen]

Jen.

[Nick]

How old are you, Jen?

[Jen]

33.

[Nick]

And how can I help?

[Jen]

Well, my question is, is it time to cut off my deadbeat baby daddy for good?

[Nick]

Okay, well, he is your baby daddy, so I don't know how much you know. He's kind of in your life for a while, but romantically, I'm assuming you're meeting.

[Jen]

No, not romantically. We. I ended things like, officially in 2019 due to things I found out that he's done. His character just isn't the greatest. And there's a lot that came out.

[Nick]

Like what?

[Jen]

I've never even heard a caller, like, say anything along the lines, I found out stuff that he's done. And do you want me to give you some examples?

[Nick]

If you're comfortable with it, yeah.

[Jen]

Well, for one, he tried to have sex with my sister in my car on Mother's Day. We, like, went to the beach the whole day, and then it was a good day. And then afterwards he went to the gym and then he was supposed to get ice cream at the store after the gym for Mother's Day. And then he called me at like 10pm and then didn't come home till like 2am and come to find out my sister has been going through some stuff and he ended up up. He hasn't really been talking with the family. And then come to find out he ran into her that night and then they went in my car and I don't know. That's a whole thing. That's a whole nother story. Another thing.

[Nick]

Did you. Did your sister do any like, was she immediately like, no, don't, or like they messed around?

[Jen]

So my sister was like, into some drugs at this time. She's a lot better now. We're rebuilding our relationship, but at the time she was like, MIA from the family. So about a month after that happened, she messaged me.

[Nick]

So it feels like your. Your ex husband really took advantage of her weaknesses.

[Jen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he definitely did. I don't know what happened. I don't know. But my sister told me all this stuff and I Didn't believe her because I'm like, you're drugs. Blah, blah, blah, blah. But it was true. It's come out that it was true. Another thing that he did, he missed Thanksgiving one year. And also, we were never married, thank God. But anyways, he missed Thanksgiving one year. And then I went through his computer and saw that he was posting Craigslist ads seeking sex on Thanksgiving. Not that it matters, like which day, but like, that was just like a.

[Nick]

Damn, you know, he loves a holiday.

[Jen]

He does. And those just add a little like, thing, you know. I've never heard any caller talk about these things where I'm like, versus weird, you know. Another scene when I was pregnant with my son, you know, I was wanting him to kind of like, you know, when we hooked up, like, I'd want to go down with me, whatever. He would refuse. And he was like, no, that's, you know, you're pregnant. That's disgusting. Anyways, now, you know, fast forward, I'm not pretty anymore. But he goes out with his friends, come to find out he hooks up with a pregnant woman in his truck that I fucking co signed for. Not that it matters, but I, you know, and I got him a truck for Father's Day, and on top of it, he did drugs with her. And I. He felt some remorse and he wrote himself a letter. And I found the letter, and in the letter it was like, I don't know why I did this. I was. Don't even know what kind of drugs we were doing. She was pregnant. I went down on her, which, by the way, he refused to do with me forever. I thank God we didn't have sex and stuff like that. I'll have the letter if you want to play. And then another thing is he went to California and he has a cousin that's gay, which they're close, which is cool. He was staying with his cousin when he came home. I clearly had trust issues for multiple reasons. So I went through his cousin's text messages just to see, like, oh, you know, guy talk, like, did he hook up with someone, whatever. And I just was flattering by what I read. I was like, not expecting this. But apparently his cousin texted him at like three in the morning saying they were at a party and they're like, hey, bro, want to have a threesome? And I want to massage you. Can you come in the room? And I just was like, I. Out of all of these things, the one that I left him was my sister. You know, I ended up staying for the other ones because I'M an idiot. But when I found out about my Sister, that was 2019 and we had relationship. So those are just a few things. This is like the list of 20. I know. And I've never heard a caller talk about it. Your podcast has helped me tremendously, by the way, when it came to all this stuff. I like, want to thank you for that because you got me out of a horrible relationship and all of the stuff that you say for finding a new one has helped me find the most amazing person I could ever ask for. So it's to do to a lot of your podcasts.

[Nick]

Thank you for saying. Okay, so what I'm hearing is your baby daddy is a mess. Thankfully, you're finally out of it. It sounds like you're even in a better relationship now. So what, what are you. You know, you started by asking if you could should cut off your baby daddy. Like, what does that look like? And you know, like, what specifically are you considering doing?

[Jen]

I just feel like I'm glad you let me talk about the things he's done. Just give you a little idea about his character. Because I know you say not to like, dredge people's character and stuff, but like, that to me is just like, he's just has issues. Like, he's been just, you know, clearly. And I'm point where he's also never held. So even when we were together, you know, even after the fact, we'll just say after the fact, he's never helped emotionally, financially, physically. Just. He doesn't help. He's never helped. He's never. I've never filed for child support. I think in my head I'm just like, I would rather have the piece of like not dealing with it to make because a judge could, you know, he might fight me since he cares more about money than him than anything else. He always says he would fight me since I make more money than him for custody and all this stuff. So I've never filed, but I've asked him, like, hey, I just paid for his football. It's 450. I just paid for his basketball at 300. I have to go get this. It's, you know, X amount of money. He's never giving me anything. So I just. And then he only saw him every two hours, every Thursday. But it's like my son doesn't want to go see him, you know, and he's old. He's getting old. So he's like 9 years old. And he's getting to the point where he can just. He's not stupid. You know, he can feel the vibes of him and he's just not a good person. Whenever I force my son to call him. The last conversation my. He was basically telling my son that his brother is moving and that is the best thing he could ever do. And then he said the best thing that he ever did was move to Utah, which was years ago. And he only moved for like two months and came back. But anyways, he said that was the best thing he's ever done. And then my son goes over having me and then he goes, yeah, sorry, but that's. But it's true. And that hurt my son. And he started bawling and he said, I hate you. Hung up the phone. Then my boyfriend came home from the gym, who has stepped up as a father by the way, in every way. Like he is basically the father and asked him to adopt him.

[Nick]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Jen]

And that was crazy. And I. But it made me. It was sweet but also sad. He. He refuses to call my phone to co parent or anything to talk. He got my son his gizmo watch and he only wants to talk through this gizmo watch. And he basically wants Jack to call talk to him through this watch. But I. Can I show you the last scene he's my son sent to him?

[Nick]

Sure.

[Jen]

He did a voice memo and I went through it. I didn't know my son did this because he hurt him when he said that conversation. My child's father hurt him when he said when moving was better than having you. Sorry, but it's true. And that hurt my son a lot. And so now he will text my son like, oh, hi, thinking of you. Hi. Missed you. Only on this watch. But. And then my son responded and said this to him. Hopefully you're able to hear it. But this is what he wrote or said in a voice note. Did you hear that?

[Nick]

Yeah. I'll call you when you admit that you hurt me.

[Jen]

And then after that he doesn't respond for a week. And then he goes, love you. Thinking of you. Yeah, that's it doesn't call. And then they say thinking of you. Here for you when you decide to call. Hope you're doing okay. Just random text is that. It's like, dude, he just said admit that you hurt him. You know, and so I'm just at a point like. And on top of that, Nick, he's never gone to a school conference. Not one. He doesn't. And my son has adhd and the principal emailed me and him the CC of A behavioral specialist, the teacher, the counselor. Because my son's been talking to the school counselor and they wanted to have like a specific appointment just to help my son with, you know, his adhd. He's doing fine, but just, he was, he needed, we needed to figure out some stuff, which we did. And he didn't respond to one email. He didn't come to the conference. Nothing. Just doesn't ask. Nothing.

[Nick]

So let me. Okay, so we've established that your, your ex and father of your child is an absolute loser. So we, we got that. So, yeah, I completely empathize with how you're feeling. So one is your, your son let that. Because to me, he's the, the biggest concern in this equation.

[Jen]

Right.

[Nick]

Obviously yours too.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And he's obviously old enough and self aware and I'm pretty proud of him for setting that boundary with his dad. I don't know where he got that from, but that's pretty cool. Oh, you know, but like, have you looked in any type of child psychology to like just.

[Jen]

He's in one, so he. And you know what's interesting is he asked to talk to one and I will thank you because you've helped me set boundaries. And then he watches me and I think that's why he's doing that. And I'm really proud of him. I will say he, he asked to talk to a counselor, he has to talk to a psychiatrist. Like, so he's talking to people, you know, and he's very aware for trying to send that. I was like, I'm just at a point where I just like everyone's in my ear, like, file for child support. File for child support. And at this point, after what he said, I kind of want to just because I like he owes probably so much money. But then the other part of me is like, should I just keep it as it is? And just like, because like he cares more about money. Like, I don't want to fight, I don't want to go to court. What if the judge.

[Nick]

So my response to that is like, this is definitely a big case of making sure you're happy and not right. Right.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Do you understand your rights? Like, have you spoken to a, a lawyer who specializes in custody cases?

[Jen]

I haven't been one on one with the lawyer, but one of my, I own a business and one of my clients, he owns a firm. And so we've had like multiple conversations. Just I asked, you know, asked, asked him about it and he would give me some advice on some situations. He basically said if about the adoption and stuff. And if I did file, it would probably be good because he probably won't pay. And then we have more of a chance of my boyfriend to adopt my son. But I'm just, like, don't know what the right thing is to do, you know? I just don't know.

[Nick]

I think right now the first thing you need to do is. I'm glad you got some advice from someone who seems to know a little bit about this, but I would just go meet with a lawyer who specializes in this and fully understand your rights. I doubt your baby daddy has done that. Right. So he's just making threats to you to try to scare you to, you know, whatever, but, like, you need to fully understand what you can do and what you can't do, what is available to you, what risks are, you know, what risks might come up by you taking certain actions. I just want you to understand your risks and your rights. Right.

[Jen]

Yeah. And I did actually talk to an attorney on the phone for an hour, but. And he did go over stuff, but we didn't really go over a lot of the risk. And, like, there's a lot more to it. I feel like I said no.

[Nick]

I'm glad you've already talked to people, but you're here like, Nick, what should I do? What's the right thing to do? And we can sit here and talk about the moralities of this decision, but this is bigger than just, like, what, you know, the morality of the choice. You need to, you know, first you need to protect your child. You need to protect yourself. And so. And to do that, you need to understand your rights. And the good thing you have going for you is I doubt, based off what you're telling me about your baby daddy, he sounds like a loser. And most losers aren't smart enough to, like, like, you know, understand their rights. And. And he. And if he doesn't have a means to, like, you know, if he's kind of a loser when it comes to money. Yeah, he just. He probably doesn't know. So you getting ahead of it gives you advantages that, you know, he would otherwise not have.

[Jen]

Yeah, he just always threatened to fight me and. And say that I'm gonna have to pay him child support since I make more money than him. But obviously, at this point, I'm not scared of that.

[Nick]

I don't know if that's true or not true. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, maybe. Maybe it's true, maybe it's. It's not true. But. Yeah, I mean, that's my fear, though.

[Jen]

Like, we go because I feel like he would fight because he doesn't fight now, so he clearly doesn't care. But when there's money involved, I feel like he will.

[Nick]

But again, that's why you need to. That's why you need to understand your rights. Because you and I are just sitting here guessing about hypotheticals of things we don't know.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you need someone who just fully. All right, here are your options. If you do A, you know, here are the advantages. Here are the risks. If you be advantages. Risk.

[Jen]

C. What One of the risks attorney did say is if I do file, he could fight and that he could potentially have like, then like every other weekend or something. And that's my concern. That's a risk to me because I don't want. I think it's better my son not to be around him at this point. You know, like, that to me is a risk. So I'm like, do I. I don't care. I care more about my son's peace than the money.

[Nick]

So, you know, so what are you considering doing?

[Jen]

I don't. I don't know. This is like such a big. I. I honestly feel like I just want to keep going as is have. And I guess the part of me wants to file because I'm angry, but the other parting is like, do I just let it go and just let him keep doing what he does, whatever that is? He doesn't. He's not a father, you know, and then I just. I don't know. I guess I just don't know if it's time to cut him out and not like, he's like, do I force my son to call him? Do I not force my son?

[Nick]

You know, like, I would defer to your. Your child psychologist, but my very unexpert opinion is, yeah, I definitely wouldn't. Like, like, your kid seems to be old enough to set boundaries for himself. And I think, you know, a lot of parents in your. In your situation, you know, I can empathize with why will project their. Their bullshit onto their kids and fight with their exes through their kids and use their kids as a way to get back at their partner. I'm not sensing that from you. It's. I'm sensing you're almost still trying to do the right thing, even though your. Your ex hasn't given you any reason for. For you to try to do the right. Right thing. So if your son doesn't want to talk to his dad, I would respect your son's boundaries. You know, I would also like, acknowledge that your son has the right to feel how he feels and that he's okay to feel that way. And as sad as it is, he's also not alone in how he's being treated. You know, sadly, you know, just. He's not the only. Sadly, not the only child with a, With a parent like this. You know, you don't want to make sure he doesn't feel like there's something, you know, it's his fault or he did anything. You know, just making sure your son is okay. And then whatever your son wants to do. Now your big concern is like, if. When your son. If and when he wants to maybe give his dad a second chance that you don't think he deserves, and is he gonna want a second chance with his dad and make. And put. Put him like, as a 15, 16 year old young man, will he be more vulnerable? You know, I don't know. But, like, right now it sounds like your, Your. Your son has a pretty good head on his shoulders and, and he's got you and, and thankfully your boyfriend is. My boyfriend, you know, is doing a great, you know, job of, of playing the role he's playing. But I would just. Yeah, I mean, my only, my big advice to you is just don't do.

[Jen]

Anything petty and don't force him to call if he doesn't want to.

[Nick]

Yeah. And what's your motivation to potentially force him to call?

[Jen]

I don't know. To be honest, my boyfriend thinks I had Stockholm syndrome. For me in that not anymore. But even when me and my boyfriend got together, like, I would make excuses and I don't know why. I don't. I honestly don't know why. I, I for so long tried the relationship to work. I tried to understand my ex so much. I tried. I would do things like what you said instead of like, coming at them, like, just like talking in a way of like, just trying to understand him. Like, why did you do this? Like, what should. Is what's going on in your head.

[Nick]

Yeah, but that's you. You at this point, you trying to understand him is you trying to understand yourself. Like you, you know, when you told me the story of all the crazy he did, you had to acknowledge that most of those things weren't enough for you to leave. It took him trying to hook up with your sister to want to leave. So there's probably a lot of shame or embarrassment or whatever that you're feeling about your choices. And then it's easier to like, explain his actions because if you can justify his actions, then you can justify yours. That's just my guess.

[Jen]

No, for sure. Yeah. It's a lot. And I just. I don't really know. I'm just at a point where, you know, I just am sorry. I just don't know the right moves. And I'm trying to take the steps to do it, but, like, cutting him out is what I will. If in my perfect world, I would, like, cut him out, have my boyfriend adopt my. Our son. Because he's been fed to every appointment, a school, a conference since we were together. So we've been together since 2022. My son was sick. He's been. And he's going to school for nuclear engineering and he's going to be graduating in two months. And since my son has also seen him in school and doing this work, like he loves school now, now, you know, we had such a problem in school before, and since he's came into our lives, his grades went from like Fs to Bs, you know, and I just feel like he's such a better dad and he has the. He can actually, like, he's earned that role. But then to actually go through with it just seems like a lot, you know, to change his last name and to not cut his dad out, but I really don't. He doesn't even talk to his family. His sister just got married and he didn't go, so I had to talk to his mom, talk to his sister, meet up with his sister.

[Nick]

Why are you doing that still?

[Jen]

I don't know. This is where my boyfriend tells me that too. And I think it's just. It's his family, you know, that's his family too.

[Nick]

If his grandma and aunt or whatever wants to be involved in your son's life and they're proactive about being involved in your son's life, then great. Then if you feel comfortable and safe and you think they're genuinely good people, then you can allow that to happen. I don't think you need to be going out of your way to make sure that he is okay.

[Jen]

Yeah, no, that makes sense. It's hard for me and I don't know why. I think I just have, like. Oh, like, you know, I care about my son and I want him to have these relationships.

[Nick]

Yeah, but like, you know, I don't know, like, how many. How many people are like that close with their aunts and uncles?

[Jen]

Yeah, no, I know.

[Nick]

You know, you know, that's true.

[Jen]

Yeah, but he's nine, so it's like I don't know. And it was his aunt's wedding me, you know, so as you get in, my ex, you know, even told me his sister was getting married. And he just talked so down. Even on the phone, the last conversation they had, he's talking down about his family to my son. And it's just like, I just don't think that's good for my son to hear these things. And I'm just trying to be that person that's like, this is your family. Like, I'll make sure that you, you know, I got you. You know, but you're right. I won't go out of my way to, like, for them to have one.

[Nick]

You have some. Are you seeing a therapist?

[Jen]

No, I. I did. Your podcast has been therapy for me.

[Nick]

I get it. But I'm. I'm not a therapist. And I appreciate you saying that, and I'm glad you find value in it. But, like, yeah, you clearly have some stuff to work through and unpack, and you're doing a good job and, you know, and you have great intentions, but, like, you have some blind spots and that. We all do. And, you know, don't ruin a good thing by putting too much pressure on your boyfriend. He's not your therapist, and he's already doing a good job of playing the role as a dad, even though that's not, you know, his biological son. I'm sure your boyfriend gets a lot of value. I'm sure your son has brought a lot of value into his life, and you've done the same. But I'm just saying, so much value. Be careful of ignoring the help you need and then assuming that you're getting in other aspects of people who aren't qualified to give it. You know, I wouldn't want your boyfriend to ultimately just feel a little overwhelmed by this. What feels like a. You know, I'm sure your ex feels like a virus or this just disease that won't go away. As far as he's concerned.

[Jen]

He's like a. Yeah, he's like a leak. And if I were to let him.

[Nick]

But I don't think you're realizing how much you bring up your ex's drama to your boyfriend out of this guilt that you feel of making sure that your son still has a normal childhood and this kind of making sure he calls his dad, who's shown time and time again to either hurt your son with his words or give him terrible advice or just kind of insisting he has a relationship with his side of the family again if he wants to Great. If they're proactive, great. And he's still safe, fine. But, like, I'm getting the impression that you're doing a little too much and you're not sure what's the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do or. And I think that's where maybe a therapist can just, you know, someone to check into and who, you know, might help you workshop these things. Because honestly, like, I just don't know if it's. If. If your boyfriend's doing most of the emotional regulating for you. It just. Like, I just. I would be careful not to.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Nick]

To put it all on him.

[Jen]

Yeah. No, and I have. I've been a lot better. The beginning of our relationship was a lot worse. And I do feel like I have. Have finally let go, like, maybe like six months ago. It took that long just to, like, not even care about my ex's feelings. And that is a little strange to me. Why did I care? Like, why do I, you know, I don't know. It's a great question. But I am letting go. Like, I officially feel like if he was. I'm. And I'm pregnant now, and I'm four months. And I feel like since my ex found that out too, like, he has been a little bit more aggressive with Jack.

[Nick]

What do you mean by aggressive?

[Jen]

Like, he's. Like, the last conversation, he just seemed to be more like he doesn't care that he's hurting his feelings. And then he told my son that I bought him a PS5 for his birthday. And he was like, on the last conversation, he goes, you don't deserve a PS5. And so now my. He randomly goes, I don't deserve this. I don't deserve that. And I feel like he doesn't feel like he's deserving. And I'm like, you are deserving, honey. Don't let him tell you you're not deserving. And I tried to tell my ex what you said. He doesn't deserve this. Watch your word. It's like, you know, it's not, you.

[Nick]

Know, I mean, like, you're wasting energy trying to, like, lecture your ex ex or, like, coach your ex. I mean, he's clearly not a good dad. Not even a good person. He wasn't a good partner. He's not even a good sibling or son. He's just kind of a loser. Well.

[Jen]

And at this point, they haven't talked for a month and a half. Besides these stupid messages, he says, I thinking of you randomly. And that's where I think I feel Bad. He messages him on this. On this watch and I. He refuses to call my phone, though.

[Nick]

I mean, have you told your son you're really proud of him for setting this boundary? Good. Just keep doing that. It's just like, you know, it must be really hard to hear your dad say those very mean things that are not true. And I'm just really proud of you for standing up for yourself. And that's very brave of you. And like, that's. Yeah, I don't even know if I could have done that when I was your age. You know, again, like, be there to be praised him. Yeah.

[Jen]

Yeah. And I think the counseling has helped him a lot too, because he's very, like, aware of his feelings.

[Nick]

I just think you need to do take your son's advice. Follow your son's lead. Your son was brave enough and mature enough to recognize that maybe he needs some help. And I think right now you have a pretty good head on your shoulders and you got a lot of good things going on. But when it comes to your ex husband or boyfriend or whatever, you're kind of spiraling a little bit and you're pregnant and like, I was. I just don't want you wasting an ounce of energy on this guy if nothing changes.

[Jen]

Do you. This is like a kind of separate question. Do you think it would be wrong to have my boyfriend adopt my son if this. If he's continuously doing the cycle of hurting him?

[Nick]

No, I mean, what you're describing, like, again, I don't understand the legal ramifications. And I know that, like, all this can be just very messy, but, like, it doesn't sound like your son's dad deserves to have any access to your son. And it sounds like he puts. He only. All he does is put your son in at risk. And I think he doesn't deserve the right to have access to his kid. I think he's dangerous. That's my opinion based on what you're telling me.

[Jen]

Well, I. I'm glad you're telling me that. I honestly didn't know what your advice would be. Like, I. I had two other questions I wanted to ask, but I decided not to. But I already kind of knew what you were gonna say to be hon. But this one I genuinely didn't know, so I appreciate it. It does feel like I know the right thing to do. It's just hard to do, I guess.

[Nick]

You know, as far as, like, I, you know, I think you're right, though. I think the things that matter. It sounds like you have a lot of those things going for you. And I don't know if the legal system makes your, your boyfriend and the father of your, the child you're. You're growing inside you right now makes him any less of a dad to your nine year old son. Because the, because of what the courts say. I don't.

[Jen]

Yeah, no, 100%, but because the way my, what the attorney basically told me is because he hasn't been present or he just never paid a child support for one. That's a big one. We don't need his approval for my boyfriend to adopt him. We can take him to court and the judge would probably sign off that it's okay, but that's where like all these other people like file for child support. But part of me just doesn't even want to file for it. It's like I don't even want to.

[Nick]

Well, I, I would definitely not do anything you don't need to do just for the sake of being right or petty or to get back at them. And if you don't need the money and asking for this guy's money puts you or your son at risk, I definitely wouldn't do it.

[Jen]

Okay. Here. Thank you for saying that. You're like the only person in my life to say that. Me and my boyfriend are the only ones that are like, let's maybe like look into everything before because we want. Ideally, when he asked them to adopt him, like first of all, my heart shattered, like for great. It was sad, but also like the most amazing thing, like their relationship is he's the best person. And I truly like, want to thank you a lot because I know a lot of it was me. But like your podcast just helped me so much. You know, just the things when, even when dating, you know, like dating was the whole thing and then finding my boyfriend and the right boundaries to say for what I want. And then I just feel like it's all, it's really all worked out great. And your podcast has been a huge help.

[Nick]

So I really, I really appreciate you saying that. Very kind. But just give yourself credit. You're doing good things. I really think you should look into some therapy. Yeah, just try it. You know, it's not like, like, oh, you need therapy. You have like, you, you're all fucked up and you need some work. But like, you just, you need to get things out sometimes. And if nothing else, I want you to like not have it just be you unloading on your boyfriend about your ex boyfriend all the time. And I'd like, you know. Yeah, like, we can't do this all the time, and that's why you should get a therapist. But, like, you know, I'd, I'd rather have you get this out with me than just exhaust the people who have heard it over and over.

[Jen]

Well, I did have one, though. Just so you know. I did have one. And we also, that therapist told me they're like, literally, they're like, we've never told anyone what to do but leave him. That's what he said. He literally looked at me and said, leave him. And that was when that was going on with my sister thing. But then I saw him a couple more times and then we stopped. But, okay, well, I will start up.

[Nick]

Again and you can find someone else. And like, it's just.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Taking care of your mental health. I mean, I know it's like, it's like taking care of your physical health. You, sometimes, you, you sometimes you're pretty active at the gym or pretty active. You hire a trainer, then using a trainer, and then you realize, maybe I need to use it. You know, like, same thing with like a therapist. It's not a cure all. It's just, it's just maintenance. Right. And I think it's also just a way to alleviate some of the stresses, anxiety, and pressure that like, you have to get some of this out is kind of my point. And I just would like you to get it out in a very healthy and productive way as opposed to a toxic way. And if you're not dealing with it in a healthy way, you're just at risk of it coming. You know, at some point you're just going to have to get this stuff out, out, and you're gonna have to work through it. And I just, you know, just protect your healthy relationships and don't exhaust your healthy relationships by avoiding, you know, dealing with your stuff in a more productive way. Like therapy.

[Jen]

Yeah, no, I'll, I'll do that. I do feel like I've let go of a lot of things, but. And I don't. It's not like I talk to my friends all the time about this. I really have let it go a lot. But it is still. It's just more so the custody stuff. But I, I will talk to someone. It will help me. I know, just to like, like vent and stuff, because he pisses me off and that'll probably always be a fact.

[Nick]

Listen, you're not, you're not the first, and you won't be the last person who had a beautiful child with an absolute loser, you know?

[Josephine]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Literal, like, he's the worst. Like, I've never heard a call. Like I. There's even more like your mouth would be on the ground. Like, I've never heard a caller say anything. And what I find honestly embarrassing is like when he cheated on me, it wasn't like a normal feeding. Like at least go to the bar and meet someone. But you can't because I think you're fucking. Clearly you haven't. Like, it's weird. Like you, your Craigslist ads and there's something wrong.

[Nick]

I mean, there's something wrong with your freaking weird.

[Jen]

It's embarrassing. It's like, what the hell? Like.

[Nick]

But it's also your problem, is that you're still making it your problem.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you know, listen, it's. It is again, kind of like I said when you first called. I mean, he is the father of your son. So it's just like you, you know, if you didn't share a kid together, maybe he still wouldn't be in your life. But you are making him more of your problem than it sounds like you need to because you do have things working for you that some other parents who are co parenting with difficult people don't. Is that the fact that your ex is pretty absent and not involved and doesn't try to be and you're actually, you know, and that's kind of a good thing rather than him going actually following through with some of these threats and really making life a lot more difficult. I mean, this, this situation could be so much worse. And I'm sure there's a lot of single parents out there who are listening, you know, wishing they were in your situation, as crazy as it sounds. So.

[Jen]

No, and I know and there's been people that called into you or have friends that are like going through a battle and four and cuss. And then that's why I'm like, I love the piece. You know, I think I didn't have that for so long and I don't know why I stayed with him for so long. It's million dollar question.

[Nick]

But no, it's not. It's not a million dollar question. It honestly, like, yeah, maybe unpack it in therapy, but you do not have to ruminate over and over. What's important is that you're out of it. You know, what's important is you finally found the strength and you set that boundary. I mean, if you want to understand it a little better. So to make sure you don't make the same mistake in the future, but you don't need to sit there and analyze it over and over. And then that's what I'm kind of saying is that you seem to be doing it a little bit more than you realize. And I think you're still spending a little bit too much energy worrying about things we're related to your ex that quite honestly, you don't have to worry about. The problem's almost been solved and you're still kind of too emotionally invested. I think you're reaching out and connecting with his family too much. Much. Again, if they want to be proactive and go out of our way to make sure they still have a relationship with their nephew or their grandson, let them. But it's not your job or your responsibility, and you need to focus more on your son and your boyfriend and the baby.

[Jen]

Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you. I appreciate your advice. I wasn't sure, honestly, like I said what you're going to say, so I knew you're probably gonna say he's a loser. And there's a lot of times you're like, don't, you can't. Or what do you say? Like, you can't, you know, categorize a narcissist, but he is one. Like, a hundred percent. Like, but he's everything under the sun, but who cares? I know it doesn't matter, but it just doesn't matter.

[Nick]

Like, he is. He isn't, you know, loser, whatever. He's. He's not great. We know that much. But, like, what's what? The only thing that matters is that he's in the past as much as he can be regardless, you know, and that's the part you're still holding on to. To you know that you have not 100. You still make him more of your problem than he needs to be. And that is something you still need to work through and get a therapist for.

[Jen]

No, I do. And I can tell I want to hurt him in a little bit. Like, if I file for child support, like, oh, it's going to hurt him. And then I kind of wanted to give his real name, which I didn't. But, like, I kind of wanted to.

[Nick]

Just to be like, yeah, you gotta like that. You know, that's your toxic trait. And that's the thing that you need to work on. At least you can recognize it because that's you, really. I recognize all you need to. You need to just be grateful of just. Just how much. Like, I mean, think about it. You have a great boyfriend. He's. In so many ways, you are so lucky, given the situation you came out of and you need to spend way more energy focused on that and lot less energy on all this past.

[Jen]

Okay, well that's what I'll work on and I will get. I will, I'll call the day I have time. So I'll call and talk to someone and I am proud of myself for being able to hold like when I did talk to him I didn't like he would say really bad things and mean things. But I just always held my composure. I feel like that's a lot has helped with just this podcast in general. Yours and others just I've hold my composure really well. But I do need to let other things out and let go of some stuff. So I do need to talk to a therapist. I just think it also it's, it's hard when everyone is in my ear too like, oh, file for child support, file for child support. Like everybody. But I'm just gonna do what's best for my son.

[Nick]

Well, listen, you're asking a lot of different people their opinion and so you're getting a lot of opinions. So like, like stop doing that.

[Jen]

Yeah, you're right.

[Nick]

Thank you. All right, have a good rest of your day.

[Jen]

Yeah, you too.

[Nick]

All right, bye. Bye.

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[Nick]

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