E949 – Going Deeper with Sherri Papini

Summary

The Viall Files: Episode E949 – Going Deeper with Sherri Papini

Release Date: June 11, 2025
Host: Nick Viall (represented here as Zoe Saldana)
Guest: Sherri Papini

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of The Viall Files, host Nick Viall engages in an in-depth conversation with Sherri Papini, delving into her tumultuous journey involving abduction, legal battles, and personal struggles. The episode offers listeners a candid look into Sherri's experiences, shedding light on the complexities of her case and the ensuing media frenzy.

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The Abduction and Captivity

Sherri Papini recounts the harrowing experience of being abducted by James Reyes, detailing the 22 days of captivity she endured. She highlights the psychological and physical torment she faced, emphasizing the lack of control and the relentless fear during her imprisonment.

Sherri Papini [05:25]: "They were around the age of nine. It's unnecessary for them to be exploited in the way that they were."

Papini discusses the challenges of reliving her trauma during the filming of the HBO docu-series, expressing her discomfort with revisiting painful memories while under public scrutiny.

Legal Proceedings and Plea Agreement

Sherri opens up about her plea agreement, revealing her regret over not pursuing a full trial. She explains the intimidating nature of facing the federal government and feeling that the legal system was rigged against her.

Sherri Papini [10:15]: "If it would have been a trial, Sherri Papini versus James Reyes, I would have. Yes, absolutely."

Papini expresses frustration over limited opportunities to present her side fully, particularly regarding her emotional affair and the subsequent false allegations that have complicated her custody battle.

Media Portrayal and the Docu-Series

The conversation delves into Sherri's perspective on the HBO docu-series, where she feels that certain crucial elements of her story were omitted or misrepresented. She discusses specific instances where she believes the documentary skewed context, particularly concerning her mother's statements about the abduction.

Sherri Papini [09:16]: "She was able to rehabilitate herself quite a lot more, and there was a little bit more context surrounding that."

Sherri expresses disappointment over the lack of comprehensive coverage of her interactions with James Reyes' family, suggesting that additional information could have provided a clearer picture of her ordeal.

Custody Battle and Family Dynamics

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Sherri's ongoing custody battle for her children, Tyler and Violet. She outlines the challenges in maintaining contact, with current restrictions allowing only monthly visits and limited phone calls.

Sherri Papini [40:24]: "Well, unfortunately, right now I get to see them once a month for an hour."

Sherri also touches upon the strained relationships within her family, particularly with her sister, who has been emotionally abusive towards their parents. She discusses the inappropriate relationships forming within her ex-husband's family, adding another layer of complexity to her personal life.

Reflections on Relationships and Personal Growth

Sherri reflects on her past abusive relationship with Keith Papini, detailing the coercive control and emotional abuse that led her to seek solace elsewhere. She acknowledges the mistakes she made, particularly the lies told during her abduction, and expresses remorse over the unintended racial implications of her false statements.

Sherri Papini [72:27]: "I was trying to manage a lot of things that I didn't understand."

Despite the pain and adversity, Sherri emphasizes her journey towards personal growth and healing, highlighting her work on a self-authored book and collaboration with a life coach to build a better future for her children.

Current Status and Future Aspirations

Currently, Sherri is actively fighting for custody of her children, facing delays in the legal process but maintaining hope for a favorable outcome. She remains focused on rebuilding her life, creating a positive legacy for her children, and helping others through her experiences.

Sherri Papini [79:23]: "I'm focused on getting my kids back and creating a legacy that is not this traumatic experience."

Sherri concludes by sharing her hope for future relationships, expressing openness to marriage once she has successfully regained custody and stabilized her personal life.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• [05:25] Sherri Papini: "They were around the age of nine. It's unnecessary for them to be exploited in the way that they were."
• [10:15] Sherri Papini: "If it would have been a trial, Sherri Papini versus James Reyes, I would have. Yes, absolutely."
• [09:16] Sherri Papini: "She was able to rehabilitate herself quite a lot more, and there was a little bit more context surrounding that."
• [40:24] Sherri Papini: "Well, unfortunately, right now I get to see them once a month for an hour."
• [72:27] Sherri Papini: "I was trying to manage a lot of things that I didn't understand."
• [79:23] Sherri Papini: "I'm focused on getting my kids back and creating a legacy that is not this traumatic experience."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Viall Files offers a profound and emotional exploration of Sherri Papini's life post-abduction. Through her candid revelations, listeners gain insight into the challenges of navigating false allegations, the impact of media portrayal, and the struggles of seeking justice and familial reconciliation. Sherri's story underscores the resilience of the human spirit and the importance of personal growth amidst adversity.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based solely on the provided transcript of Episode E949 – Going Deeper with Sherri Papini from The Viall Files podcast. All viewpoints expressed are those of Sherri Papini as represented in the podcast and do not constitute an objective analysis of the events discussed.

Transcript

[Zoe Saldana]

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[Sherry Papini]

Thanks. And here's my old phone to trade in.

[Zoe Saldana]

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[Sherry Papini]

There's always a trade in.

[Zoe Saldana]

Not right now. @ T Mobile.

[Sherry Papini]

I feel like I have to give.

[Zoe Saldana]

You something in return for karma. That's okay.

[Sherry Papini]

I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[Zoe Saldana]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Sherry Papini]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.

[Zoe Saldana]

Really, I'm fine.

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec.

[Zoe Saldana]

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[Sherry Papini]

You'Re crazy.

[Zoe Saldana]

Sherry Papini. Welcome to the Vile Files.

[Sherry Papini]

Thank you for having me.

[Zoe Saldana]

Well, thank you for coming. I imagine these must kind of give you anxiety or, you know, you get nervous talking about the story or do you look forward to it because, you know, so many people have doubts talking about the story.

[Sherry Papini]

No coming on things like this and definitely not used to the microphones and cameras.

[Unknown]

Yeah, this definitely isn't normal. It's not normal.

[Zoe Saldana]

So our hope is always when we have these, whether it's obviously a more serious, heavy topic like this or, you know, talking to our friends, is to just be, you know, people in a room having a conversation, you know, rather than it feeling like an interview. So that's, you know, ultimately our goal. So hopefully that can rest you at ease a little bit. We just got Done watching the new docu series on Max. Have you had a chance to see it?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, and I actually saw it just like everybody else. You know, I didn't have creative control on the documentary and wasn't a part of that, so I saw it at the same time everybody else did.

[Zoe Saldana]

How did that opportunity present itself? When did you first find out that HBO wanted to do this docu series, and why did you decide to be a part of it?

[Sherry Papini]

You know, it was a big collaboration with a team that I've been working really closely with, and I really had no idea that HBO was going to pick it up. I'm just the subject, you know, that's kind of not really a part of anything else there, but it was something that I'm incredibly grateful for. It was quite shocking.

[Zoe Saldana]

What was shocking about it?

[Sherry Papini]

That HBO was going to be producing it.

[Zoe Saldana]

What were you hoping that it would be? What were you hoping to get from deciding to be a part of this experience? Just knowing that you had no creative control?

[Sherry Papini]

You know, working with the director and the producers of the show, the primary objective for them was to create something that was balanced. And I think that they did an exceptional, even extraordinary job at continuing to make sure that it was objective and it was honest and it was steeped in integrity and balance. And that's pretty terrifying for someone like me, because when you have this very biased opinion going into it, when you have to balance something by showing something positive with something negative, but you're already going into it with this very negative bias on me, kind of already tips the scales. So it was terrifying for me, it was terrifying. The truth is very easy. And I think a lot of people that are familiar with my story and what happened there was a lot that didn't fit. You know, the primary narrative prior to me engaging in this project, it didn't align. You know, it just. There was a lot of things that were left unsaid and a lot of things that didn't fit. And I think we accomplished that with this documentary. There's a lot of things that I wish could have been in there. There's a lot of things that I wish weren't in there. But primarily there was this storyline to what happened to me that didn't seem to flow. Everyone kind of saw the news coverage and it just didn't seem to fit. And now I think we've captured that with the docu series.

[Unknown]

Did you watch the one on Hulu that your ex husband was a major part of?

[Sherry Papini]

Sadly, yes, I did, unfortunately.

[Unknown]

What were your initial Thoughts on that one.

[Sherry Papini]

It's heartbreaking. It's extremely difficult to watch your children be exploited in the way mine were, you know, and not not being a part of it, because that documentary was created while I was in prison. So there's not a lot of capacity for me to fight for my kids. And, you know, it's excruciating to watch both my son and daughter be put in there so much.

[Unknown]

And how old were they in that documentary? Young.

[Sherry Papini]

They were, you know, around the age of nine. And. And I don't know when it began exactly. I just know it was primarily filmed when I was in prison, but young enough that they really. It's unnecessary for them to be exploited in the way that they were. And if you notice in ours, their faces are blurred, their audio is removed, and, you know, it's as a protective mother. And watching the documentary, it did its job in demonstrating that I'm a caring, loving mother to my children. But of course, you just want to, you know, keep them away from everything, and they were really dangerously exploited in it.

[Zoe Saldana]

You mentioned there were things that you wish were in this docu series and things that you wish weren't. Can you elaborate on both?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I think first and foremost, there is quite a lot of audio on James's very informal interrogation in the documentary. And, you know, there's not to do too much inside baseball, but, you know, there's length of time and there's edits and there's things that we can and can't put in the film due to time constraints and things like that. I don't really know too much about that process, quite frankly, but there's a lot of that audio that's quite shocking. And I think that for me, it's having listened to that audio and studying that audio and listening to law enforcement officers feed him the questions and him starting to lie in the very beginning and them literally saying, here's what we can offer you and we'll make that go away. You know, that's not in there, and it's really valuable and important to the case. And we're expecting this experience to be almost like a trial by media, frankly, because I didn't get a trial. I signed a plea agreement. And those are really valuable, important pieces of my case.

[Zoe Saldana]

What are things that you wish weren't in there?

[Sherry Papini]

You know, when you go through the filming process, you're in the chair and you're interviewing for hours. I mean, it was a year process for me, so it was hours and hours and lots of lengthy interviews. And while there was a relationship developed with my director, she was still not my friend. She was there to be objective, and she was there to investigate and find the truth of everything. And so you see little bits and pieces of my personality come out or when I'm nervous or something like that. And as you know, you guys do this all the time. There's little things that's captured on film that you're like, oh, no. Oh, don't put that in there. That's really awkward. So for me, you know, again, I'm under a level of scrutiny that most people aren't, and I've really. It feels like I've been given this life sentence. So it's difficult to watch those little bits of things that I have no control of being out there that get really humiliated, and it's quite embarrassing. And, you know, there's a line. My poor mother. My mother tried to explain something. And when you don't have control over your own audio and it gets cut and clipped and they don't show, where someone has the capacity to rehabilitate, it can be taken wildly out of context.

[Zoe Saldana]

What part specifically are you referring to?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, when my mom was kind of stumbling over her words and she was trying to explain what she thought the situation was when she says it's not an abduction and what she came to understand. So it doesn't go into the rehabilitation portion where she comes to say, you know, and then I grew to understand what actually happened, but there's, you know, traumatic effect for everything.

[Zoe Saldana]

And so you're. Yeah, because I think that was a part that, you know, we watched that we was like, oh, her mother doesn't think it was a kidnapping.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I mean, it's shocking. It did its job, you know, so.

[Zoe Saldana]

So you're. You're saying that they edited that in the docu series to make it look like she said that rather than her actually saying that or she said more.

[Unknown]

And they just didn't air the rest of what she said.

[Sherry Papini]

Correct. She was able to rehabilitate herself quite a lot more, and there was a little bit more context surrounding that.

[Zoe Saldana]

So are you saying that's what they did and they changed the context, or that your mother changed her mind after she said that?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, no, my mom definitely knows that I was held captive and that I was kidnapped. And that's definitely the stance that she's on. Like I said, you know, there's. There's context to be added there. And while everything was very confusing in the beginning, we have a greater understanding of what actually happened now. And that is not how my mom feels. No.

[Zoe Saldana]

Do you imagine your mom will speak out publicly to clarify that?

[Sherry Papini]

I think given the opportunity, sure. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Looking back at you just mentioned you didn't get the trial, you signed the plea agreement. Do you regret not getting a trial?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I mean, if it would have been a trial, Sherry Papini versus James Reyes, I would have. Yes, absolutely. But that's not what my option was. It was Sherry Papini versus the United States of America, and it's Sherry Papini versus the federal government. That's quite intimidating. It's not only quite intimidating, but they, they make the rules. And so it's really difficult to win something that's already rigged. I don't think I would have had a very good opportunity. And in the end, my options were to take accountability. I wanted to take accountability. I didn't want to take as much as they gave me, but I wanted to demonstrate my remorse for the secrecy and the COVID up and take accountability for what I did.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Zoe Saldana]

Have you been paying attention to the Internet and opinions about your case and what people have to say, whether they do or don't believe you?

[Sherry Papini]

I do. You know, I've been in this storm for almost a decade now, so I do a really good job of being able to turn it off. I don't do the read the comments and things like that. But what I found is, you know, generally those that don't believe are heavily defended, people that have been touched by some type of trauma in relation to a circumstance where there's been deceit or someone has lied to them. So I'm sure you can recall in your life someone lying to you or someone being dishonest with you. It kind of gives you this defensive stance, right? That's what it's made for. When we create defenses, it's meant to protect us from something. And so when you're presented with very substantial evidence and then you still turn away and say, well, I'm just not going to listen to her because she's a liar. The chances are really likely that you've been traumatized or hurt by someone who's caused that kind of hurt or trauma in your life. And I feel for them, you know, I feel for those people. It's difficult to be up against a lot of other opinions when you haven't lived my life and you haven't been through the things that I've been through. But again, I really see it as like someone else that's been through something that is preventing them and Keeping them in their ignorance and keeping them in some. Somewhere where they just won't look at evidence and become unbiased.

[Zoe Saldana]

What's some of the evidence that you feel exonerates you or proves your story that you think people are not paying attention to?

[Sherry Papini]

You know, I think a lot of people are paying attention to it, and I think a lot of people now are seeing that my testimony, it fits, it tracks. You know, that's one thing that my director continued to say is my testimony, my evidence, it tracks from start to finish. There is a flow to it. It's very simple. And the truth is usually a lot easier to follow, and it's a lot simpler to follow.

[Zoe Saldana]

Okay. I think one thing that people who don't or are having a hard time believing your story, I think, you know, you mention, you know, I think in the docu series, you kind of ask that question, like, have you ever lied? You know, I think the obvious question for all of us is we. We all have. Right. Which I think makes people kind of want to empathize with you and things like that. I'm sure, you know, not. Not all lies are the same. Right. You know, I think, you know, as a. When a young child might lie, and then there are lies where there's, you know, a lie to cover another lie, to cover another lie, to cover another lie. And I think, you know, your original story, the story where you, you know, seemed to get caught in the lie and you initially blamed it on two Hispanic women and things like that. There was a lot of detail in that lie originally that people, I think when they look back and see your testimony in the interrogation from the police officers, they seem to have a hard time understanding that story. It's my understanding now that you're saying that your reason for doing it is you're kind of trying to breadcrumb the cops to try to lead him towards James, is that.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, and that's an excellent. That's a very valuable bit of information. I really wish that would have been in the film because the sketch that was created, you know, these aren't made up people. They were real people. And so if you take a picture of James mother and it was spoken about briefly in the film, but they. What they didn't do is they didn't show you a picture of her and his mother looks exactly like the sketch. I mean, if you compare the two, you would be like, oh, yeah, that's absolutely James mother.

[Zoe Saldana]

Which one?

[Sherry Papini]

So the one with her eyebrows. Yeah, it looks exactly like her. And, you know, I Understand that there is a lot of discomfort wrapped around that. Watching that interrogation video. There is with me as well. I really. It's heartbreaking to continue seeing it over and over again and to continue seeing what I did to mislead law enforcement officers. And like I've said in, in the film and even in my book, going into detail about how painful that was for me and how difficult of a situation I was in because my intention wasn't to commit a crime, and my intention wasn't to try and continue a lie to commit a crime. It was to. For my own safety and it was to keep being with my children. You know, I got nearly six years of being at home with my children, keeping this emotional affair that I had a secret. And as you can see in every interrogation video, especially that last one, my husband is sitting next to me the entire time. And so admitting that I was having an emotional affair and that I had any involvement at all meant losing everything, which is what you see now. Exactly what I was afraid of happening happened. And you know, that last interrogation, it was awful. You know, it was three very aggressive, challenging men. I didn't have my advocate with me. I didn't have any attorney representation. I had an angry husband who was figuring out what was going on. And I had two law enforcement officers who were very much not on my side. And it's really extremely hard to watch.

[Unknown]

Why did you feel like the thought of this emotional affair coming to light, your children finding out about it, your husband taking your kids away, was scarier than the law enforcement men saying this is illegal. If you lie to us and this is a crime and we'll arrest, you know, like, why did the emotional affair seem scarier to you in that moment?

[Sherry Papini]

I think that's a pretty good indicator that there were some pretty severe abuse in my relationship. If I am more afraid of my ex husband than I am of law enforcement and going to prison. And frankly, throughout the three prisons that I've been in, Victorville Federal prison was the safest that I felt in 16 years.

[Zoe Saldana]

What did you make of your sister talking about how in the time in which, before they realized James was involved, that anytime you saw an Hispanic woman or even a woman with brown curly hair, that you had an emotional reaction or you act triggered, essentially accusing you of faking your trauma?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I think everyone is held to a degree in this case, and I'm held to a much stronger degree than anyone else. You know, because I lied and because I have a charge for moral turpitude, I have to Provide a lot more than most people. So when a testimony is found to be inaccurate and untrue, then from then on, you have to provide a lot of backup and a lot of evidence. And what I found from the Hulu documentary is it's all just a lot of, you know, in court now, we call it hearsay. Right. So there's not a lot of evidence to back that up. And there's a lot of emotions that are mixed into it. So I can see where she would feel that way and say things like that, but that does not make it true.

[Zoe Saldana]

Do you think she's lying about that?

[Sherry Papini]

Not necessarily saying that she's lying. I think that there's an over dramatization about some things and not of others.

[Zoe Saldana]

What part of her, I guess, lie or embellishment, where was she even getting that from? Why do you even think she might have thought that?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, after the abduction and after captivity, I was very severely traumatized and I was experiencing quite a lot of ptsd. There is a lot of relational pieces that have to do with the abduction. And again, the sketches, they're real people. This is not who's the other person. It's someone that was involved. So when James would leave, he would have me observed by other people. He would have me watched. So he had two family members that lived in the same cul de sac, one of which had a wife. And then we have James's mother. So these are not made up people. They're real people. And while I know that it's deeply flawed to create people that, you know, weren't James, I. I didn't really have a whole lot of options. And what I did, it's very. It's deeply unfortunate. It's deeply unfortunate. And I did the best that I could. And it was interesting to watch my docu series and listen to a little bit of inaccuracy, inaccuracies as well. I did not request the sketch. I am not the one that requested doing the sketch. In fact, I didn't want to do the sketch. It was my ex husband that was pushing for it. And you hear the FBI agent say he was really annoying and he kept getting in the way. There was a lot of demands on his behalf that were very, very uncomfortable.

[Zoe Saldana]

Did you. The people who helped James, his mother and this other person, did you share that story with law enforcement?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, no, I didn't share the story with law enforcement. Everything was a cover up.

[Zoe Saldana]

No, I mean, after James involvement at any point. Because I don't remember you mentioning that in the Docuseries?

[Sherry Papini]

No, I haven't spok to law enforcement about anything. I took the plea agreement, I went to prison. And this is the first time that I'm speaking about it. I haven't formally spoken.

[Zoe Saldana]

So you're saying right now is the first time you kind of mentioning that he had accomplices in your kidnapping?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, no. I mean, it's. It's mentioned. It just didn't make it in the docu series. It's in the book as well.

[Unknown]

Did James ever, like, threaten you if he were to give you back to your family? Like, if you tell anyone that this was me, I will kidnap you again. I will come and find you. Like, did he ever threaten you with any of that to scare you into not giving his name?

[Sherry Papini]

It was 22 days worth of threats, you know, and the negotiation process to be freed and to be able to go home, that was a large portion of it. And during captivity, he said, oftentimes, like, I'm going to be watching you, because there was already so much news coverage. And he'd been telling me about the news coverage. You know, he told me that everyone was looking for me, and. Which was great for me because I got to use that as a negotiation tool with him, you know, being like.

[Unknown]

They'Re never going to stop.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, I said that during captivity to him. And so, you know, I had insurmountable odds against me because I'm in an interrogation room that I know this video is going to be leaked and it's going to be put out there and he's going to be watching. He's going to be watching for me to keep him secret because that was part of my bargaining chip to get home. So, yeah, it was quite difficult.

[Zoe Saldana]

You mentioned at the end of the docu series that I guess, like, your one wish is that James be held accountable.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. Well, you listen to the FBI agent say, you know, she's the girl who cried wolf. And that's. Yes, that is a tale as old as time. But the person who cries wolf still gets very hurt. And, you know, you listen to him say, we need the footprint of the wolf. There is a literal footprint on my back. We need a picture of the wolf. Okay. You know who he is and you know where he is. We need a written and signed confession. Okay. He has an obligation for himself, self preservation, to stick to his story. He also has the opportunity to really heal a lot of people. You know, if he were to come clean and tell the truth about what happened and his culpability in the crime, it would heal an entire community. It would heal my family, it would heal my children, it would heal my friends. But it's highly unlikely that he's going to do that.

[Zoe Saldana]

Don't you think? Telling law enforcement about his alleged accomplices and the possibility that they could find or question his mother or this other person might lead to him being held accountable?

[Sherry Papini]

I had so many moments where I almost broke. I had so many moments of trying to steal away to tell them more things that would lead directly to him. I was just really too scared. And you see that in the interrogation video. You see a very desperate woman in a very difficult situation.

[Zoe Saldana]

I mean, I suppose even now, though, wouldn't you want them to track his mother down in this other person to, you know, because, like, what. What you're accusing them is horrific, right? Obviously, to kidnap someone and torture them.

[Sherry Papini]

And they all knew that I was there, you know, and the people. The people. The. The other relatives that were living in the cul de sac, they all knew that I was there. And so it's. It's difficult because in my case, there's very obvious culpability of other people. You know, if you knew that I was there, this years went by, you said nothing. You had no involvement. And for James to say, oh, I was just a friend helping a friend, like, if I came to you and said, will you hurt me? Will you brand me? Will you starve me and beat me and drug me? You'd be like, honey, yeah, I need to make a phone call. And then also at the end, like, let's just send you home to children. Like that. That would be. If I asked you to do that, obviously, it would be a deeply wounded person, a deeply terrible individual, and he admits that he has culpability in it, but he's not held accountable for it. So you listen to law enforcement say, you know, if she asked for it, then it's not a crime, and if she wanted to go with you, then it's not an abduction. So let's start again and let's, you know, go from here because we can erase where we said that you were lying, because we know you're lying. So they give him an opportunity to rehabilitate himself after already lying to law enforcement officer. So when you have two testimonies that are inaccurate for purposes of deceit, right? Mine's inaccurate for my deceit. His is inaccurate for his deceit. What do you have left? You have the evidence that's on my body, and it's clear that there is multiple injuries, if not most of the injuries that I couldn't do myself. I couldn't possibly do myself. That means that somebody had to do them. That's not me. And I am telling you there was no consent. And I am telling you I did not ask for that. So however you take that, it demonstrates culpability.

[Zoe Saldana]

How many people, from your understanding, knew that you were being held captive by James?

[Sherry Papini]

Probably about four, maybe more. I don't know who else he spoke to, but a handful of people.

[Zoe Saldana]

Don't you wish they would be questioned or interrogated? You know, because, I mean, I feel like that would be the best chance of. Of James being held accountable. I mean, certainly you understand, like, I'm not no expert in law enforcement or anything like that, but I would assume that accomplices would be quicker to crack under questioning and things like that. You know, they, you know, it can be easy to get caught up on something. Maybe his mom wanted to help his son and was confused by what James was doing or this other woman that you say was there. But like, doesn't that bother you that all these people, you know, witness your. Your abduction and know this truth and, and haven't been questioned, that could lead to him being held accountable?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, doesn't it bother you?

[Zoe Saldana]

I mean, if it's true, yeah, for sure. But I would definitely want them questioned. But I guess, like, why haven't you tried to get someone to question them?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I don't have a very good relationship with law enforcement at this point, and it's something that I'm trying, I'm trying to do. You know, again, when you have a charge for moral turpitude, your testimony is not taken seriously. Your testimony is, you know, I have a charge for moral turpitude, for lying. So as much as I'm trying to get it taken seriously, it's just not. And frankly, I didn't give law enforcement that opportunity when we were in the middle of the case. I didn't give them the opportunity to do that.

[Unknown]

Do you know their names? The two women who. Like James's mom and his aunt in law.

[Sherry Papini]

So that there's an uncle and there was a cousin and the cousin has a wife.

[Zoe Saldana]

Say something.

[Sherry Papini]

Sure.

[Zoe Saldana]

It actually, the FBI did interview her. We have the FBI interview with them acknowledging that they watched it on the news and didn't say anything.

[Sherry Papini]

And yet everybody was granted kind of.

[Zoe Saldana]

Whatever agreement everybody made, but they were.

[Sherry Papini]

Certainly interviewed and we have their interview. And furthermore, for the documentary, we hired.

[Zoe Saldana]

A private investigator, try to do just that. But this clan would not break on each Other. Why didn't they include that in the docu series? That's a decision.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

Wow.

[Zoe Saldana]

Okay.

[Unknown]

How long did you date James for? Back in 20.

[Sherry Papini]

A year or so. Okay.

[Unknown]

And had he ever been physically abusive towards you?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, there was a lot of quite disturbing things towards the end of our relationship. It's the reason why it ended very abruptly, in fact. He was staying late at work, and I packed my car and I left.

[Unknown]

Can you recount, if you're comfortable, any of the things that he did to you?

[Sherry Papini]

You know, James is a really sick individual. He has a proclivity for violence, and he's. He's one of. You know, it's really difficult for me to talk about. It's an attachment to really disturbing things, but it is. It's really uncomfortable to talk about. He's pretty disturbed.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Sherry Papini]

Sadly, you know, when you watch in this docu series, especially, like, I've gone through so, so much scrutiny and so much. I've had psychiatric evaluations and lie detector tests and interrogations and all of these things, and they. He's passed a polygraph test, but did he take psychiatric evaluations? Do we know anything about his mental state? We know that prior to the abduction, he was very disturbed, and he put a lot of very disturbing posts on Facebook. They don't show that, which I was really disappointed in. And I think getting to understand his mental state would be really helpful.

[Unknown]

If you had finally broken free from that relationship, you'd moved on, you were in a new relationship, you had children. What prompted you to spark that relationship back up and start talking to him again, the person who had hurt you?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, his brother had passed away, and I was really attached to his brother. He was such a sweet boy. And so actually, my mom and I had sent something to his family, and then we just continued talking. And for me, it was one of those, like, he's out of town, so it's safe. And I was so deprived, and I was so starving for some kind of a connection, because I just was not getting that, that he had a very easy in. You know, he preyed on something that. That was really vulnerable to me.

[Zoe Saldana]

Weren't you worried that a man that you just described is kind of a monster and just kind of very troubled person? Like, wasn't that concerning for you to in any way let this person back into your life despite your connection to his brother?

[Sherry Papini]

Thank you for saying that. Because, yes, the reason why I kept it platonic and the reason why I kept it phone and text is for that very reason. And it's yet another clue, if you could say that leads one to believe that I wouldn't have left with him and I wouldn't have agreed to go anywhere with him. And in fact, when he came to reading, it was to try and end the relationship because he wanted more than what I wanted.

[Zoe Saldana]

But how did you establish using a burner phone with him? At what point in the beginning of this emotional affair with James did you guys start doing that?

[Sherry Papini]

You know, my husband, my ex husband, he was very controlling. And that means turning over your phone at night and allowing him to check it at any moment. There was a lot of restrictions going on in my house, and there was a lot of control going on in the house. And when they say, well, there was men's names saved under women's names. Like, I was not allowed to have conversations with whoever he deemed inappropriate. Whoever he deemed inappropriate. And so there was a lot of concealment to even have a standard or normal life. And so when there was a moment where I was caught by Keith talking to someone else in a very platonic way, I had tried to end things with James. And so it was his idea to get these burner phones to keep concealing it because I was really scared, and he knew that I was really scared of Keith and the punishment and what would happen if I continued to engage.

[Zoe Saldana]

How'd you guys go about getting those?

[Sherry Papini]

He sent me a phone.

[Zoe Saldana]

How do you send them to you?

[Sherry Papini]

To my mom at her work.

[Zoe Saldana]

And you just like, did your mommy have any idea about it or you just, like, giving your mom?

[Sherry Papini]

No, he just sent a package.

[Zoe Saldana]

Gotcha. Back to you mentioned, you know, you had your fears, but why? You know, and certainly know what it's like for people to feel unseen, but why not literally anyone else? You know, maybe someone at a coffee shop or, you know, anyone else other than maybe going back to James, even if it was just, you know, over phones?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I think it's. It's difficult to understand the degree of coercive control that was happening in my relationship. You know, it's difficult to understand with Keith or James. With Keith. Oh, gosh. With Keith, it's difficult to understand when you have a spouse who is eliminating everyone in your life and eliminating all of your friends and your social circle and even alienating you from your own family. You know, so it wasn't necessarily about me reaching out to him. It's. He found the open door and he found that vulnerability, and he completely forced his way in there. And unfortunately, in the past, I was quite meek and I was very agreeable and didn't have the type of confidence that I have now and was really easy to be taken advantage of.

[Unknown]

What name did you have James under in your phone when you originally reached out about his brother?

[Sherry Papini]

I don't remember. That's a good question, though. Yeah, I don't remember.

[Zoe Saldana]

When you were in captive, were you able. Did you have access to the outside world? Were you watching tv?

[Sherry Papini]

No. No. James would discuss things here and there. So if I participated in certain acts and I participated in the things that he wanted, he would grant me access to certain things.

[Zoe Saldana]

Like, did you even know, like, what day of the week it was at any point?

[Sherry Papini]

No. So imagine, right, you have probably a watch or an iPhone or whatever. Imagine being in this room without the lights and no access to time. Pay attention today to how many times you watch the clock, how many times you check the time, and how easy it is for you to get oriented just even by daylight. And then imagine that being completely stripped from you.

[Zoe Saldana]

Your mom talked about your relationship with Keith, and again, maybe things were. Context was changed, but it seemed like watching the docu series that she, like, understood why you didn't want to be with Keith. Like, the more that was revealed about that marriage. And that's why when she again, allegedly said, you know, at least what we watch is that she didn't think it was a kidnapping, it felt like she was like, I understand why my daughter wanted to leave that marriage. As if she understood why you might have, as people are accusing you to fake this kidnapping and set this thing up with James. And it felt like your mom was like, you know what? I don't even care what the truth is when it comes to whether this is a hoax or not. I believe my daughter when it comes to her relationship with Keith, and I understand why she wanted to get out so much. You know, what are your. What are your feelings about that? You know, we hear so many stories of how. How scary it can be to stand up for yourself and leave a relationship like that, that, like, sometimes the only thing you can come up with is something as crazy as faking a kidnapping or things like that. But you're. You're just saying that's not true.

[Sherry Papini]

It's far more simple than that. You know, I. I was. I was really struggling in a very abusive relationship that led me to a very dangerous. And that's just really as simple as it is. And being able to have this relationship that I have with my mom now and finally coming out of everything and then finally telling her the truth, it was like, oh, that makes so much sense, you know, because she'd watched everything and she'd watched my relationship and she'd watched my marriage. And where it makes sense to have wanted to be engaged in an affair, the abandoning my children did not fit. And the hoaxing, a kidnapping, it didn't fit. But when you explain it so simply, you know, and you say this led me to a very dangerous man and I got involved in something that was. I got in over my head. You know, talking to James was one thing, but I was not expecting to be held captive and tortured for 22 days and then had no way out.

[Zoe Saldana]

Your sister on the Hulu doc mentioned about some. I think you told her there were like slits in your back, you had scars in your back or that Keith discovered some scars. That ringing a bell or.

[Sherry Papini]

No, I don't talk to my sister. I don't have a very good relationship with my sister.

[Zoe Saldana]

What's your parents relationship with your sister?

[Sherry Papini]

My sister is highly abusive to my parents. And so they are doing the best they can to manage what they can as her mom and dad, but she's. You know, just because we're your children, it doesn't give us the right to be abusive.

[Zoe Saldana]

Of course not.

[Sherry Papini]

Just because you're a child, it doesn't mean that you can harm your parents. And she's very harmful and she's very toxic.

[Zoe Saldana]

Is it a more physical or emotional or both?

[Sherry Papini]

Emotional. I mean, she's just horrible to them and it's. It's really, it's very sad to see.

[Unknown]

When did the two of you drift apart or had you ever been close?

[Sherry Papini]

No, Sheila and I were never close. We were close for a short period of time. And when the abduction happened, that. And she started getting on the news with Keith and started getting highly involved with everything. That's when she suddenly became a part of my life. You know, she was very involved with being on camera just as Keith was. And then she started developing a really inappropriate relationship with Keith and then they got really close and they still are really close. And they, they are still close. Yeah, they still have a. I would say is a highly inappropriate relationship.

[Zoe Saldana]

Do you think there's anything going on or do you think there's a romantic relationship starting?

[Sherry Papini]

I do, I do. I think that there's a lot of inappropriate things that have happened between Keith and Sheila and a lot of things that I've seen. And in fact, I really wish I had this really cool home video that I had that I was hoping would end up into the film where you see Keith and Sheila engaging physically in a way that. And then you hear my dad in the background go, oh, God.

[Zoe Saldana]

Where do you stand with your fight to have custody of your children?

[Sherry Papini]

Where do I stand?

[Zoe Saldana]

Yeah. Like what's, what is that an ongoing process or are you still in court or how's that going?

[Sherry Papini]

So we're at the first part of the trial and, you know, we. We had the first half of the trial and then there was a continuance and then the Chastity County Court flooded and it was closed for a while. So we have to push it even further. And now, sadly, my trial is pushed out until July. So it's a lot of just waiting and waiting and trying to have patience to get there. But I'm hopeful. I'm incredibly hopeful. I mean, you saw my lawyer. I got a heck of a lawyer. And we've listened to Judge Barton, who's the judge that I have, say, you know, we don't take children away for lying. It's not something that we do here. And so I'm hopeful.

[Unknown]

When was the last time or how often do you get to see your children?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, unfortunately, right now I get to see them once a month for an hour. And I'm supposed to have weekly phone calls, but as you saw in the last trial, Keith said he wasn't going to follow court orders even if they were given. And so I'm supposed to have weekly calls, but I get them once a month.

[Zoe Saldana]

Can he be reprimanded for that?

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, it's called contempt of court. We'll be doing that.

[Zoe Saldana]

One thing I was really fascinated by in this docu series is your relationship with your sister in law, Keith's sister. And she very much has your back. I think one of the more profound things she said was, regardless of what you think about Sherry Papini, is that those kids are much safer with Sherry than they are with Keith. I mean, obviously you opened up about your relationship with Keith, but what are her experiences with Keith that caused her to have such a definitive opinion about her brother?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I can't speak for her, but she's been a family observer for a number of years, and I think it says a lot about someone who is deeply involved in therapy and therapy modalities and can see that he is not someone that she can be close to. I think that says a lot. Suzanne is a deeply caring person and she's always been open to mending a relationship and working in a relationship. He has not. And he's been incredibly unkind. And the fact that she is on the side of the children in my court case. Right. She's remained very neutral, but she's going to be coming in on my side. If you were to be on a side. And because of that, she's been erased from her family. You know, they've treated her so unkindly. And same with me. I mean, in this family, if you don't comply, you're erased and it's incredibly harmful. And so I think when we say the kids are safer with me, there's this relational piece in it that's happening with this alienation. And it's, it's a type of family where if you don't follow orders and you don't comply and you do something wrong, you're gone, you're done, you're annihilated. It's assimilate or annihilate. It's a very harsh family system.

[Zoe Saldana]

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[Zoe Saldana]

Get a free 30 day trial when you go to constant contact.com. try Constant Contact free for 30 days@constant contact.com Again, that's constant Contact. The day you were found. One thing the FBI like they raised questions, you know, with it being on on Thanksgiving and it was at the time it seemed like kind of a beautiful story. It's oh my God, she was found on Thanksgiving. When you were trying to get James to release you, did you like knowing it was Thanksgiving? Were you trying to be home for the holidays, so to speak, to spend time with your children?

[Sherry Papini]

No, I had no idea it was Thanksgiving. I have no idea how that even happened with James. I would presume it was probably because he had enough time off of work to drive all the way to Northern California. That's just an assumption of mine, but I wasn't a part of that process and I didn't even know it was Thanksgiving until I was in the back of the ambulance and the EMT said by the way, happy Thanksgiving. I had no idea.

[Zoe Saldana]

How did your relationship with Keith change Once you returned to the family and.

[Sherry Papini]

Freed yourself from James, it was nonstop interrogation. It was nonstop trying to catch me in something and non stop trying to pressure me and use me in any way that he possibly could to get accommodations and things like that.

[Zoe Saldana]

Did you tell anyone or, you know, reach out to anyone? Because it seemed like, you know, from what we saw, and again, we saw limited stuff, that it was almost if you kind of had your family back and seemed like you were trying to heal and mend things with your family.

[Sherry Papini]

As much as things were. I tried deeply to conceal them. You could see them quite clearly, which is demonstrated by my parents saying, you know, she was alienated from us and it's been incredible to have her back. And it's also demonstrated in saying that Keith Papini's sister took me in.

[Zoe Saldana]

What was prison like?

[Sherry Papini]

It's a good question. You know, I, I, we didn't really have the opportunity to go into that in the film either. There's a lot of really fun stories in the book, but it was extremely, it was exceptionally challenging. You know, I, I was, when I was tackled in front of my children, which was really unnecessary and taken, I was held at the Sacramento County Jail. So I spent time in both jail and in a women's federal prison. But still it was the safest I felt. In 16 years, you know, I've been imprisoned by James, imprisoned by Keith, and imprisoned by the federal government, and that was the safest that I felt.

[Zoe Saldana]

Did you make any friends?

[Sherry Papini]

So many friends.

[Zoe Saldana]

Did you keep in touch with them?

[Sherry Papini]

Within the parameters of what's acceptable with my probation, yeah.

[Zoe Saldana]

Okay. The prison that they showed on the docu series, was that the actual prison that you were incarcerated at? Okay. Because the one that they showed seemed like a, a pretty serious facility.

[Sherry Papini]

I've been to one like that.

[Zoe Saldana]

Okay, like, what other crimes did the inmates that you were incarcerated with commit? Like some pretty serious criminals.

[Sherry Papini]

There's a lot of variances there. You know, there's a lot of different inmates to different degrees. When you're sentenced and you're sent to a federal prison, they give you a point system depending on the offense. Right. So we have minimum, maximum and medium security and then we have the, the women's camp. So it's kind of a level of degree. Also, if you've served for an extended period of time, you can transfer from more of a medium security prison to say, a federal prison camp. You know, there was a time where I was in prison and documentaries continued to come out, films continued to come out while I was in prison, and all of the women were watching them. And there was this time where there was a show that was on where they said, well, she's just in a federal prison camp. It's not a big deal. The reaction from the women in the camp, that was one of the first times that they actually had a little bit more empathy for me because they were, you know, saying, oh, it's not a big deal. She's just at a federal prison camp, and it's a big deal. It's an absolutely a big deal. And just because it's a camp doesn't make it any less excruciating to be away from your friends, away from your family, and away from your children. And it was really. It was very grueling.

[Unknown]

We heard from one of your friends. Remind me her name.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah, Mo.

[Unknown]

Mo. And she kind of mentioned how when you first entered the story kind of came out, she herself is Hispanic. And she was saying that, you know, kind of a lot of the Hispanic women in the prison were like, you know, kind of raising their eyebrows at you. Do you realize the impact that saying the two Hispanic women putting that out there had on the Hispanic community?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I think that. That there's a lot of blame put on that as well, and that's something that's been existing for a long time. And it was not my intention whatsoever. You know, I was deeply affected by that, and I have a lot of sorrow for that, but it was absolutely not my intention. My intention was to find. Get them to find James Reyes, who is Hispanic. And it was just a breadcrumb. It was not meant to be made into this big race issue. It was just a breadcrumb to lead investigators to James Reyes. And like Mo was saying, the women were like, wait a minute, they're saying you're racist, but you were dating this guy. So it doesn't. There's a lot of things that don't align, that are salacious, that are overly salacious. And I do feel deep empathy and sorrow for anyone that was harmed or interrogated or investigated during this. That was not my intention whatsoever. But I also can't take responsibility for how law enforcement handled themselves. I can't take responsibility for the pressure in which they use to interrogate other people. I take full responsibility for what I did. Sure. But that race issue was there way before me. Way before me.

[Zoe Saldana]

Given you mentioned this, how long race has been an issue in this country and things like that. Why didn't it cross your mind how damaging that accusation could be given just how popular and just how worldwide your story was. Why didn't you think of that, given the historical ramifications of race in this country?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I would hope that if a crime was committed to someone and you are of a different race, that you would focus on the crime rather than the race of it. If I'm saying that James Reyes is Hispanic because I'm white, why is it considered a race issue?

[Zoe Saldana]

Yeah, but it wasn't, I guess. James, you were accusing two women. Well, I understand you mentioned that these women were based off of people you had met. Couldn't you have given a different description? You know, other than.

[Sherry Papini]

I wish that that was an option.

[Zoe Saldana]

Because we ended up finding out his mom's not even Hispanic.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, that wasn't the point. The point wasn't to lead them to his mother. The point was to lead them to James.

[Zoe Saldana]

Gotcha.

[Sherry Papini]

So it's not. It wasn't because there was a race related point. It was to get them to go to James.

[Zoe Saldana]

What other kind of clues or breadcrumbs did you offer the law enforcement or anyone else to try to lead them to? J After your release?

[Sherry Papini]

I described everything with absolute accuracy. So the only thing that was lied about was the identity of James. Everything was described with accuracy. Every injury, every description of the room, everything that I could give them to lead them to where I was without saying where I was was accurate and true.

[Zoe Saldana]

Did you ever like mention like. Cause you knew where he lived, right?

[Sherry Papini]

I generally knew where he lived. I'd never been there before.

[Zoe Saldana]

Okay, why didn't you give them like the, the area or like the neighborhood or, you know, anything like that?

[Sherry Papini]

I mean, I didn't know the neighborhood that I was in. It wasn't until way later that I even knew that I was in Costa Mesa.

[Zoe Saldana]

Gotcha.

[Unknown]

The Internet seems to be hung up on the phone, the headphones, how it landed, what, what that whole thing is, what happened when you saw his car pull up and then back up with the phone and your headphones.

[Sherry Papini]

It's. And you know, during the, the process of filming, that was such an excruciating process. And being in that position, it's difficult to realize and understand that you're on camera, be directed by a crowd of people, and then also reliving everything. Not just reliving everything, but it's now eight years later. Yeah. And you're having to relive everything. So it's difficult to be accurate about that.

[Unknown]

Do you remember being like, I'm gonna. Because your hair was in the headphones. Do you Remember being like, let me do this so that Keith can find me and know that something was wrong. Do you remember it? You just dropping it out of your hand out of pure, like, oh, my God, who is that? And you dropped your phone. Like, do you remember any of those scenarios happening?

[Sherry Papini]

It's. Yeah, it's. It happened in such a. You know, you're asking me to describe a two second incident eight years ago in distress. No, it's okay. But, you know, it's from what I remember, from what I can remember. And it's unfortunate because what I gave law enforcement was the lie. You know, it was part of the lie. So now it's like I have to go back and attempt to clean up, up what I had said. And it's gotta be heartbreaking for my husband too, to not know which part was accurate and which part wasn't. But, you know, it's those gummy headphones. My hair is all over the place. And it's really easy to get your hair caught in them. So whether I pulled it out on purpose or whether it was already just kind of in there, I really don't know. But dropping the phone, the phone dropped and then it was pulling it out because it's a long string. And then however, it. There was no coiling or injection in that.

[Zoe Saldana]

You didn't wrap anything?

[Sherry Papini]

No.

[Zoe Saldana]

You don't know how it got wrapped around it?

[Sherry Papini]

No, and I don't think it did. I think the photograph that they show, it's not wrapped, it's just kind of all piled on top of it.

[Zoe Saldana]

What did you mean that it must have been hard for Keith?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, given now that the facts of the case are out and he himself has more access to the evidence, I could see where that would be extremely heartbreaking.

[Zoe Saldana]

Why do you care?

[Sherry Papini]

Why do I care?

[Zoe Saldana]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

I mean, because I'm a loving, caring person. I'm not out of the way.

[Zoe Saldana]

But he also was obviously so emotionally abusive to you. You know, I guess. Why were you worried about.

[Sherry Papini]

But just because he is doesn't mean I have to be. I'm not seeking revenge. I'm not trying to hurt him.

[Unknown]

He did try to put out in the media that you were abusive to your children. Do you think that was part of his tactic to kind of pile on? Why do you think he would sacrifice, you know, his kids like that?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I think, you know, something like 56% of marriages fail in America. And so that means that there is a lot of people in the family court system right now, and there is a lot of People that have to go through separation and divorces. And I think, unfortunately, I've come to understand that when you get a divorce and false allegations are made, it's quite common. And that is heartbreaking, but very, very true. And I think a lot of people that have watched the documentary can really relate to what it's like to separate from a toxic ex and what retaliation looks like, as you can clearly see happening to me. What retaliation looks like, what false allegations look like. It's really quite common. And it's unfortunate for him because, first of all, it doesn't add up. Like, it's not even a good lie for him to have committed. And it's proved, as you can see, through evidence, concluded to be unfounded, and it's closed. So it's heartbreaking to watch him use. I mean, that's where you see me get really passionate about it. Whenever I talk about my children, I get extremely emotional, and I get very passionate. And you see that in the documentary when I say, you know, this is something you have to live with forever now, and he's used my daughter as a pawn to make these false allegations. It's incredibly heartbreaking. And, I mean, in my opinion, it's borderline child abuse to use her in the way that he has and exploit her in the way that he has.

[Zoe Saldana]

Did your children make any hospital visits or anything like that from any injuries that they sustained from just an accident or anything? He claims something about you wrapping alcohol bottles around their house.

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, it's so absurd. Yeah, he. What he claimed doesn't make sense. And generally when things don't make sense, that means that something is missing. There. There's something that's inaccurate.

[Zoe Saldana]

It's just wildly made up. There's no. Like.

[Sherry Papini]

Yes.

[Zoe Saldana]

When did he claim that happened?

[Sherry Papini]

Okay, so after. Right. Just before I'd signed the plea agreement, he was having difficulty with me signing the plea agreement. There's a lot of ego involved in this case. And gone to my attorney. And after my attorney had spoken to him, he came to Suzanne's house, where I was staying, to get me to sign a contract. And that is yet another regret. I wish that there was more of that recording with Keith in that documentary because it would really demonstrate quite a lot of what I was going through at the time. But he wanted me to get a sign, to sign a contract, and if I signed this agreement, I could go home and I could be with my kids and I could live with him and the children, and it would be fine. But he would need to have complete Control. And I was living with Suzanne for months now and I was able to be with Suzanne and able to have safety. And I was already planning to divorce him anyway. And at this point I didn't want to sign the contract, I didn't want to go back to him. And he threatened me. And he said, if you don't sign this contract, I'm going to bring the world down on your head. I'm going to take your children. And it's not going to be very hard because have you read a paper lately? Then he filed for divorce when I decided not to come home. And false allegations followed that. And that is what's common. And that's what you see in family court quite often is you have, you know, the people that you see in family court, it demonstrates that there's toxicity in the relationship. If there wasn't, they would just amicably split, they wouldn't end up in court. And it's very sad to see that it's common and that's a common thing that people experience in family court. And that's what happened to me. You know, I decided not to go home. I decided not to sign the contract. And then right after that, false CPS claims were made, this documentary was created. I mean, it's a very clear line from A to Z of retaliation and coercive control.

[Zoe Saldana]

Just given everything you say he did. I mean, one could make an argument that this all starts with Keith. Like regardless of what caused James to abduct you, the emotional relationship that started with James started because of his alleged emotional abuse. And you mentioned when we first started talking this life sentence of so many people doubting you, the damage it's caused, not being able to be with your children, having your community kind of, you know, cast you away. How can you not have more anger towards your husband?

[Sherry Papini]

I think that's what was so exciting about me coming on your guys show. Because you're so fascinated in these relational pieces, right? And so being able to have this opportunity to get asked questions like that, like you lose that sometimes. And there's such a big relational piece to my case. And so, you know, thank you for giving me that opportunity. I'm really grateful for it and grateful to be with people that are engaged in that relational piece of me.

[Zoe Saldana]

So do you really don't have anger towards him?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh no. You know, I've reached the point of indifference at this point. You know, I went through a mourning period, you know, of a marriage that ended and so deeply sad for my children. That's first and foremost for my children, I'm deeply sad. And you have to get to a point where you hate each other less than the love that you. You love your children more than you hate each other. And I love my children far more than I dislike Keith Papini. And we have to parent these children. So, yes, as much as revenge and vengeance feels nice, and yes, it's very healing and cathartic. Like there's two kids involved here and when you can demonstrate your capacity for mature growth. And I have worked extremely hard to become self aware and have this self discovery process. It's clear the other side is not. But I think that's the best revenge for me is I've grown and I've changed and I've moved on and I'm not fixated on it because it's so much energy to put into revenge. And hating someone, you know, and. And taking a stand can look very different for everyone. And for me, moving on and healing and getting better and understanding what I like and what I certainly don't like anymore, that's pretty powerful, I'm sure also.

[Unknown]

Getting your children back will be like the biggest stance.

[Sherry Papini]

Of course. Of course.

[Unknown]

Did you ever, at any moment, I.

[Sherry Papini]

Don'T think he's thought about that. I don't think he's thought about like the destruction that he's causing because he's still gonna have to sit next to me in basketball games and we're still gonna have to parent these children. And I think that's why he's trying so hard to erase me, because he can't tolerate that. And there's so many of us saying, you have to, you have to. And there's a stubbornness there.

[Unknown]

Did you ever at any point ask James to help you get out of your marriage, save you from your marriage? At any point had you said that maybe you meant something, he thought it meant something else.

[Sherry Papini]

I mean, there was a lot of complaining. Yeah, sure. And like I said, there was really apparent vulnerabilities that he very easily preyed on. So generally when you're a woman and you're complaining about something to a man, they have these complexes that develop. It was just an in for him. You know, I was deeply affected by how difficult my marriage was.

[Zoe Saldana]

Which lie that you told do you regret the most?

[Sherry Papini]

Probably the length that the Hispanic women got carried away. You know, again, it wasn't my intention to make it about race. It was my intention to lead them to James. Yeah, I would say that one. Probably. I regret all of them. They're all, you know, it's all so hard to continue to be faced with. But are we our biggest mistakes? You know, trying to live through that and trying to rebuild my life and trying to create some kind of legacy for my children, that's not this mistake, you know, how do you come back from that?

[Zoe Saldana]

Do you think you're a good liar?

[Sherry Papini]

No, I'm actually a terrible liar. I mean, you've seen the interrogation video. Do you think I'm a good liar?

[Zoe Saldana]

In that moment, I believed your lie. I guess there are times I believed your lie.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, and that's the part that's this relational piece is there was real danger, and that's what made it really believable. It made it believable because there was real danger and there was a real crime that was committed. And that's what I relied on. I relied on when I was telling my story to continue saying these pieces about what had happened to me in captivity. And that's where, you know, you see me suffer from PTSD in the film and you see me suffering from these real experiences. And that's what I continue to rely on.

[Unknown]

Can we talk about your injuries that you sustained while being held captive?

[Sherry Papini]

That's a broad question. We'll see. Let's move forward and see where it can go.

[Unknown]

The bruises on your face, on your eye that he had hit, hit you with his fist, right? Is that right? Okay, we know the branding. Obviously he had gotten the wood burning tool you had talked to him about on doing your crafts, the burn marks on your arms. How did that happen?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, he had discussed. He has this weird fixation on people that curate scarring to keloid and kind of look similar to a tattoo. Does that make sense? And so that was like a practice.

[Unknown]

Run for it to see if your arm would keloid.

[Sherry Papini]

Yeah. And you know, it's. It's difficult because you have a director who has access to all of these photographs. And again, like I said, I wasn't a part of the edits or anything like that. So the accuracy in which they depict an injury that I'm speaking about might not actually be the injury that's in the photograph. And like the photograph that they show in the film in connection to what I'm saying actually wasn't even the right injury. So, I mean, I was hit so many times and there was so many bruises and so many things that happened. You know, people, it seems, are fixated on quite a lot of details in the case, which I actually love because it means that they want to solve it. Right. And it's left feeling unsolved because there really is missing justice in this case. And so it's like when we get these people that meticulously comb over this, it's kind of heartwarming, you know, because you're left at the end of this docu series and going, oh, my God, there's real culpability in this case. Why hasn't any of this happened?

[Unknown]

What happened with the hockey stick?

[Sherry Papini]

Which part? There was multiple things that happened with hockey stick, I guess you tell us.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Sherry Papini]

So there's an injury that occurred to my nose that you see, and James states that I ran into a hockey stick. So if you're standing in this room right from here to here, if I stood right there and I held out a hockey stick and I said, nick, run into this hockey stick. One, do you think you could accurately do it if you're trying to injure yourself here? And two, what sort of inertia would you be able to create given that you have a stride to fling yourself from one end to the room to the other to cause that type of injury to your own face?

[Unknown]

So did he hit you with. With.

[Sherry Papini]

Absolutely. But to listen to him in these interrogations say that I did it to myself, it's not only beyond shocking and disturbing, but when you. When I just tell it to you, just like now, it's very easy to see, like, come on, that's ridiculous.

[Zoe Saldana]

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[Sherry Papini]

Thanks. And here's my old phone to trade in.

[Zoe Saldana]

You don't need to trade in. When you switch to T mobile, we'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro plus, we'll help you pay off your old phone. Up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.

[Sherry Papini]

There's always a trade in.

[Zoe Saldana]

Not right.

[Sherry Papini]

Right now.

[Zoe Saldana]

AT T Mobile, I feel like I.

[Sherry Papini]

Have to give you something in return for karma.

[Zoe Saldana]

That's okay.

[Sherry Papini]

I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[Zoe Saldana]

I'm good. Seriously?

[Sherry Papini]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.

[Zoe Saldana]

Really, I'm fine.

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, I have raisins. I'M a mom. Wait, wait one sec.

[Zoe Saldana]

I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on us. No trade in needed. Will even pay off your phone up to 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualify imported for well qualified plus tax and ten dollar connection charge. Payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel CT mobile.com what do you make of the Pinterest board law enforcement said that you had made that had like a collage of all of the, I guess, products and equipment that was used in your torture, whether it was self inflicted that law enforcement claims you did, or whether it was from Keith. But apparently this was your Pinterest board.

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I mean, do you have a Pinterest?

[Zoe Saldana]

I don't, but my wife does.

[Sherry Papini]

I do. Okay. Yeah. How many pins do you think you have?

[Unknown]

I'm sure a lot.

[Sherry Papini]

Yes. So what would it feel like then if law enforcement tore apart your Pinterest and chose to just grab specific pins that led to some kind of bias to create something about you?

[Unknown]

I would learn that I liked terracotta tiles and Brad Pitt with his head shaved.

[Sherry Papini]

I mean I did woodcrafting before. I mean it did exist. And my crafting skills and things like that. I mean I. They had thousands and thousands of pins in there.

[Unknown]

Should we get into the blog post?

[Sherry Papini]

Blog post?

[Zoe Saldana]

The blog post that was under your name that had the story that had racial elements?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh my gosh, there's so many things I didn't even remember that have happened. You know, it's like they take your entire life and try to pull your entire life out. That's something from so long ago. And it actually, it was like a mean girl thing that happened to me. You know, it's not something that I wrote or participated in. And my ex husband, my first husband, he, he gave a statement and said no, this was totally a mean girl thing that was done to her. You know, he was there when it happened. Some of my other friends that I knew back then all knew that it happened as well. So yeah, it was in relation to an old relationship that I had and an involvement with somebody's ex boyfriend that I had and kind of a retaliatory mean girl situation there.

[Zoe Saldana]

We've learned obviously with guests that we've had and just trying to understand trauma that people experience, but you learn that. And I think they talked about on this docu series, I think the, the psychotherapist talked about, you know, victims reasons for lying. You know, it's a survival mechanism at times. Did you use lying as a young adult or in childhood to cope with the trauma that you experienced as a child?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I definitely made my life seem something that it wasn't. So I was very, you know, bubbly and vivacious. And my therapist has been explaining to me something called being inauthentically cheery. So I would definitely utilize that when I was a kid. So when I was younger, I was trying to manage a lot of things that I didn't understand. I was trying to manage a lot of things that unfortunately I was, was immature and didn't have the capacity to have that self realization that I do now. I would say the majority of my concealment was when I became Keith's wife because it was like building this entire fake life. And so people that knew me back then, they say that I was very fake. That's why the documentary was called Perfect Wife. I built this whole piece on building a life that wasn't real to suit someone else's ego.

[Unknown]

So you feel like you started lying once you were married to Keith to kind of appear to your community, your friends, that y' all were just what they all would strive to be, dream to be.

[Sherry Papini]

Absolutely. We were the perfect all American couple that had no problems. Cause I was Keith the Pini's wife and his image was incredibly important and very valuable to him.

[Zoe Saldana]

Why do you think law enforcement has an agenda against you?

[Sherry Papini]

I mean, there's a lot of ego in here, you know, And I think one of the worst things you can do to someone that you care about is make them worry and for them to think that that worry was in vain. And so I think my community really came together for me and they really fought for me. And for them it's difficult because they think that it's all a lie and that I wasn't in real danger. And that's heartbreaking. And it's, it's gon take a while for them to see that I really was and that I'm deeply sorry that I wasn't able to be more truthful. And in terms of law enforcement, there's a lot of ego and there's a lot of doubling down that's happening because they don't want to be wrong. They don't want to demonstrate where their missteps were in the case and what they are themselves accountable for. And to be clear, I also didn't really give them any options. So I'm not here to be against law enforcement. You know, I have my own accountability in what I did there. I didn't give them much of a choice.

[Zoe Saldana]

You mentioned in the beginning of the docu series all the theories about who you are and you mentioned some of the accusations that have been levied against you. I think one you mentioned, like human trafficker, things like that. Where do these come from?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, I mean, you have a lot of access to speaking to people. I mean, there's rumors start really quickly in this industry and they get very carried away.

[Zoe Saldana]

Have you ever again and they mentioned, you know, what's the saying, Hurt people, hurt people. You know, sometimes people who are victims of childhood trauma end up being people who hurt other people. In the future, in your lifetime at all, have you had a regrettable moment where you feel like you've hurt someone as a cause of the pain that you experience as a child?

[Sherry Papini]

I think I try really hard to stay as deeply rooted in this self discovery process. You know, I regularly go to therapy and I've worked really, really hard on myself and I've worked really hard to have self awareness and you know, we're all pretty flawed people. And my deceit was really unfortunate and I know that it caused a lot of hurt. Sure.

[Zoe Saldana]

What are you doing with your free time these days?

[Sherry Papini]

I wrote a book and it was a beautiful, excruciating, crazy, amazing, cathartic, wonderful experience and I'm really proud of it. And I'm starting to work with this exceptional life coach who's considered a profound recovery expert. And what I'm trying really extremely hard to do is build a legacy for my children that is not this traumatic experience. And this book is something I'm really proud of. And I put a lot of energy and thought and careful consideration into it and looking how to move forward in my life and how to help as many people as possible. You know, in my community, in family law, in the judicial process, there's so many, many places that desperately need our help that I want to get involved with.

[Zoe Saldana]

Do you think Keith's a good father?

[Sherry Papini]

I think Keith has quite a lot of challenges that he would be an even better father if he examined them deeper.

[Zoe Saldana]

So he's good, but could be better or not a good father.

[Sherry Papini]

He has moments of being a good father.

[Zoe Saldana]

Of course, just given the emotional abuse you say he caused you, doesn't it scare you that he has the custody.

[Sherry Papini]

He has with absolutely it's why I'm fighting so hard. And I'm not never gonna give up. I mean, they should build me a cot in the back of that courtroom.

[Zoe Saldana]

Doesn't it make you upset or angry that he's out there and that he could be. I don't know what his dating situation is these days, but do you think it's safe for other women to date him?

[Sherry Papini]

No.

[Zoe Saldana]

Doesn't that upset you?

[Sherry Papini]

It's not my problem anymore. I am focused on getting my kids back, and I'm focused on what it's going to be like in the next phases of undoing the alienation that's been caused and surrounding my children with this much love and support and safety. And, you know, as much as he is deeply invested in his ego and deeply invested in his image, what ends up happening is, you see that image that he's so wrapped up in, and we're seeing a lot of his behavior speak for itself.

[Unknown]

What do you hope people will gain from either watching the docu series or buying your book and reading it? What are you kind of hoping? Is it you want to change everyone's opinion, or is there a message that you're hoping people will get from all of this?

[Sherry Papini]

Well, first, that I am incredibly sorry for keeping the secret. Incredibly sorry that I wasn't brave enough to tell the truth because I was afraid. And that something really bad happened to me and that it was not of my plan. I did not plan a hoax kidnapping, and something incredibly dangerous happened. And that I don't deserve what's happening to me with my children. I miss them so much.

[Zoe Saldana]

Are you dead? Dating?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, gosh. Right now, I am so busy with everything that's happening. My primary focus is Tyler and Violet. My primary focus is just getting my kids back.

[Zoe Saldana]

Do you hope to marry again once you accomplish that?

[Sherry Papini]

Oh, goodness, I. I hope so. I. I'm open to it for sure. I think. Yeah.

[Unknown]

When is the book out?

[Sherry Papini]

The book is out now, so you can go to sherrypappinibook.com you can go to Amazon as well. There are quite a few other books that are written about me. This is written by me. You know, this is not somebody creating an exploitative piece. This is me. And the book is called Sherry Papini Doesn't Exist. And the title is quite evocative. And it's been an exceptional process to go through writing this book and working on book two, even.

[Unknown]

What can we expect to read about in the book?

[Sherry Papini]

Everything that you asked me, all the missing bits and pieces. Really fun. Prison stories and a lot of backstory and childhood and those pieces that weren't in the film that had you going, oh, I wish I had more. I wish I had more.

[Unknown]

Okay, well, thank you.

[Zoe Saldana]

Yeah. Ultimately, I think we just want to give people the opportunity to share their story. And, you know, we're grateful for our audience for, you know, kind of let them just, you know, I'm sure like you, you gotta let people decide what they think. And I'm sure that's why you did the docu series. And, you know, it's an interesting opportunity to have almost people feel like they're sitting in a room with people having a conversation and then, you know, get to decide for themselves how they, they what they think of that conversation. It's a, it's a, it's a blessing that we have to do this show. So thank you for sharing your story and, and, and talking about your experiences and it's been a very interesting ride. Yeah. So thank you, Sher.

[Sherry Papini]

Thank you, thank you. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great.

[Zoe Saldana]

You love the host.

[Sherry Papini]

You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ad Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with libsynads, go to libsynads. Com, that's L, I B S Y N ads. Com. Today.