E955 Ask Nick - How To Take Charge of Your Dating Life

Summary

Detailed Summary of "The Viall Files" Episode E955: Ask Nick - How To Take Charge of Your Dating Life

Release Date: June 23, 2025

In Episode E955 of The Viall Files, host Nick Viall delves into the complexities of taking control over one's dating life through insightful conversations with listeners seeking advice. The episode features heartfelt discussions addressing personal struggles in relationships and offers practical guidance on navigating emotional challenges. Below is a comprehensive summary of the key segments, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Caller: Zoe - Balancing Grief and Business Partnerships

Timestamp: 02:18 - 45:14

Background: Zoe, a 37-year-old business partner, reaches out to Nick seeking advice on mourning the deterioration of a friendship while maintaining a professional business relationship. She shares a poignant narrative of her business journey, marked by personal tragedies and evolving dynamics with her business partner.

Key Points:

• Business Beginnings and Growth: Zoe joined a thriving business as a third partner in 2015, fostering strong friendships alongside professional success.

• Impact of Tragedy: In 2020, the death of her business partner's wife due to postpartum depression profoundly affected both Zoe and her partner, leading to strained communication and trust issues within the business.

• Partner's New Relationship: Zoe expresses her turmoil over her partner pursuing a romantic relationship with the manager they had hired, despite her request to delay such actions. This decision has led to feelings of betrayal and concerns about the business's future stability.

• Emotional Struggles: Compounded by the deaths of her brother and father, Zoe finds herself overwhelmed with grief, impacting her ability to manage the business effectively.

• Advice from Nick:

  • Letting Go of Grudges: Nick encourages Zoe to release her resentment towards her partner's personal decisions, emphasizing the importance of offering grace to preserve both personal and professional relationships.

  • Seeking Support: He advises her to utilize her growing relationship with her partner's new wife as a potential ally to bridge communication gaps within the business.

  • Prioritizing Self-Care: Highlighting the need for Zoe to address her mental health, Nick underscores the significance of therapy and self-care in overcoming emotional burdens.

Notable Quotes:

• Zoe: "I think for me, what, what, what I constantly go back to and what I have trouble with is... Was a big eye opener. It’s like, this isn't a friendship. This is."

• Nick: "You have to offer him some grace."

• Nick: "Think more about how you really feel about a situation so that you can address it honestly."

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2. Caller: Michelle - Navigating Relationships with an Alcoholic Mother

Timestamp: 49:00 - 91:56

Background: Michelle, a 33-year-old mother, calls in to discuss her challenging relationship with her alcoholic mother and the dilemma of maintaining familial bonds while ensuring her daughter's safety and well-being.

Key Points:

• Setting Boundaries: Michelle details her efforts to establish boundaries with her mother, who has relapsed into alcoholism after a decade of sobriety. Despite her attempts to engage her mother in therapy and redefine their relationship, Michelle faces ongoing challenges.

• Impact on Family Dynamics: The strained relationship affects Michelle's interactions with her siblings and her husband's stance on remaining married to her mother, adding layers of complexity to her emotional struggles.

• Concern for Daughter's Safety: A significant concern for Michelle is her daughter's exposure to her mother's drinking behaviors, which Michelle fears could lead to long-term emotional and psychological effects.

• Therapeutic Journey: Michelle shares her ongoing participation in grief group therapy, seeking methods to manage her anger and resentment while attempting to foster a healthier relationship with her mother for the sake of her child.

• Advice from Nick:

  • Embracing Empathy: Nick suggests that Michelle work towards empathy for her mother, recognizing her mother's struggles without condoning her harmful behaviors.

  • Prioritizing Self-Healing: He emphasizes the necessity for Michelle to prioritize her mental health, advocating for individual therapy alongside group sessions to better navigate her emotions.

  • Maintaining Healthy Relationships: Nick advises Michelle to balance her role as a mother with her need to distance herself from toxic behaviors, ensuring her daughter's environment remains stable and positive.

Notable Quotes:

• Michelle: "I just want to be a good mom without cutting out my own."

• Nick: "It's not your job to understand why your dad has chosen to stay with your mom."

• Nick: "Holding on to that anger doesn't get you very far."

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3. Caller: Becky - Managing Expectations in Early-Stage Dating

Timestamp: 92:04 - 127:22

Background: Becky, a 29-year-old, seeks Nick's advice on her recent dating experiences, specifically regarding her dissatisfaction with a suitor she feels is not fully committed and her struggle with setting boundaries early in the relationship.

Key Points:

• Dating Challenges: Becky discusses her interactions with a 37-year-old man she met on Tinder, highlighting the inconsistency in his communication and lack of clear intentions, which leaves her feeling uncertain about the relationship's future.

• Emotional Vulnerability: She expresses regret over having sex with him on the third date, believing it may have complicated her ability to establish a genuine emotional connection.

• Self-Reflection: Becky recognizes her tendency to match or exceed her partners' energy levels, leading to situations where she feels used or neglected, causing her anxiety and confusion.

• Advice from Nick:

  • Taking Charge: Nick urges Becky to assert control over her dating life by clearly communicating her intentions and boundaries from the outset, reducing anxiety stemming from unmet expectations.

  • Avoiding "Breadcrumbing": He advises her to steer clear of relationships where the other party provides inconsistent or minimal effort, labeling such behavior as red flags rather than personal shortcomings.

  • Empowerment in Dating: Nick encourages Becky to prioritize her own needs and goals in dating, fostering relationships based on mutual respect and clear communication rather than fleeting physical attraction.

Notable Quotes:

• Becky: "I feel like I'm being breadcrumbed, and I just wish, like, he would not breadcrumb me."

• Nick: "Take charge of your dating life."

• Nick: "Set boundaries for yourself and hold these men that you date accountable for how they act early in dating situations."

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4. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Throughout the episode, Nick Viall adeptly addresses each caller's unique situation with empathy and practical advice, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, boundary-setting, and emotional health in both personal and professional relationships. His guidance encourages listeners to take proactive steps in managing their emotional well-being and relationships, fostering healthier interactions and personal growth.

Overall Insights:

• Self-Care is Paramount: Whether dealing with grief, toxic relationships, or the complexities of dating, prioritizing one's mental and emotional health is crucial.

• Communication and Boundaries: Clear and honest communication, alongside well-defined boundaries, serves as the foundation for healthy and fulfilling relationships.

• Empowerment through Choice: Taking control of one's actions and decisions, especially in emotionally charged situations, leads to greater personal empowerment and satisfaction.

Final Notable Quote:

• Nick: "You have to take charge of your dating life and make choices for yourself."

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This episode of The Viall Files offers valuable lessons on navigating the intricate dance of personal relationships, underscored by real-life struggles and thoughtful advice. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own relationships and apply the strategies discussed to foster healthier, more balanced connections.

Transcript

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[Nick]

Do.

[Michelle]

You'Re crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Becky]

Good.

[Zoe]

How are you?

[Nick]

Good. What's your name?

[Zoe]

Jenna.

[Nick]

Hi Jenna. How old are you?

[Zoe]

I'm 37.

[Nick]

How can I help?

[Zoe]

I'm wondering if I can mourn a friendship while still keeping our business alive.

[Nick]

So this is a business partner that you hate now?

[Zoe]

Well, I don't know that I would say I hate. No, I would definitely say I don't hate. But, yeah, our friendship has just fallen apart over the last two years.

[Nick]

And is this a woman friend? Male friend.

[Zoe]

Male friend.

[Nick]

Okay. Why is it falling apart?

[Zoe]

There are several reasons. So just kind of going back. We. He and his wife started the business in 2014. I joined them a year later as their third partner. Business was fantastic for years, just growing. And we. It was the best. It was the best time. I mean, they. They became my best friends. My husband and I did everything with them in 2020. Obviously, with everything that happened with COVID we had a lot of financial troubles surrounding the business and just not being able to operate. And then the, you know, real tragedy of it is a lot of the isolation from COVID my best friend, his wife. So the other partner suffered extreme postpartum depression and psychosis, and in 2020, one, took her life.

[Nick]

Oh, my God.

[Zoe]

And since then, you know, just trying to rebuild the business while dealing with the grief of her loss. Him and I have definitely become different people. We just. We mourn in different ways, and our personalities have changed. And so there have been a lot of things that have happened since then not even related to her death, but just related to different frustrations within the business and decisions being made without consulting, you know, me, even though I'm his partner and things like that, that have just caused me to lose trust in him as a business partner. The biggest issue being that fast forward about a year and a half after she passed, um, he. Sorry, let me back up just quick. We were opening a new brand of our business and a new. A new store. And we had hired someone who was coming in to be the manager to run the whole operation. And him and I were going to be kind of like, just step back, high level. More owners, not operators in this business, because we had been and still are operators in the other business and wanted to continue that while growing this other brand. So she had been hired for that purpose. Within three weeks of her arriving, he told me he had feelings for her. And so I asked him, hey, please do not pursue this relationship right now. If you guys become a thing, that means I have to be the one to kind of manage her, to discipline her if it comes to it, to hold her accountable to goals. And right now, I'm not in a state space for that. So, you know, 14 months prior to that conversation, his wife, my best friend, had passed. Six months after my friend died, my baby brother died. And then five months later, my dad died. And so this conversation was happening three weeks after my dad passed, my daughter had just turned one. Two weeks prior to this conversation, and two weeks and five days prior to the conversation, I had found out I was pregnant with my second child. So I was just in. Like, I don't. I'm not the type that likes to use hormones as an excuse, but, like, I was. I was on the roller coaster. Like, I just. I was in a space where I could not handle any more kind of drama, turmoil, grief, any of it. I just needed, like, a pause.

[Michelle]

So.

[Zoe]

So I asked him, hey, please, can you just get to know her as a person? Can we get the business open? Like, literally, we weren't even open yet. Can we just try to get this on a growth track and then you can pursue whatever you want to pursue? So that was first week of February. By Valentine's Day, they had gone on a date. He was bringing her flowers, like, full courtship. And for me, like, right, that moment was like, okay, there is no consideration for our feelings in this friendship anymore. And to me, that's where it's like. Was a big eye opener. It's like, this isn't a friendship. This is.

[Nick]

Did he respond to you at all when you asked him this?

[Zoe]

Yeah, he said he would. He said he wouldn't pursue her. And to this day, he will defend that he did, not that he will say she pursued him. Semantics, right? Yeah. So. And my. My response is, well, you brought her flowers. So she responded in, like, in kind. And he said, well, they were friendship flowers.

[Nick]

Again, all semantics. And, like, it wasn't just like you. It wasn't about whether who's pursuing who. It was, hey, please don't engage in this relationship. Was. You know, and now he's using your very specific words against you is stupid. You know, it's. Again, semantics.

[Michelle]

But.

[Zoe]

Right.

[Nick]

So that. That is his response. So this is all very recent. Like, so you're pregnant now?

[Zoe]

No, no, my. No, my son's 18 months now. So this all happened in the beginning of 2023. So it's about two years ago.

[Nick]

Okay. But the relationship with this new woman is recent.

[Zoe]

No, that. So that was also 2023. They're actually now married and have a child.

[Nick]

All right. Yeah, I guess. I mean, in some ways, I mean, I guess he was right about her. Like. Yeah. How. How did that change your decision Tree knowing that like, and completely understand your concerns initially in the relationship. And again, I'm sure you were probably obviously both going through this incredibly devastating trauma and. Yeah. So he didn't listen to your request. He pursued her. But like, wouldn't she know it? They fell in love, got married, now have a kid and you know, good, good for him. And the business is up and running. And how's that, you know, how did, how did that from an actual, just operational standpoint? Did. How are things going in that direction?

[Zoe]

Yeah, so I think that's kind of a lot of my question is it's kind of like do the ends justify the means type of situation. Like they ended up together, so. And I genuinely do want him to be happy. Am I just holding on to a grudge of like, well, I, or this feeling of like I, I was right and need to be validated even though it wouldn't change anything. But I think for me, what, what, what I constantly go back to and what I have trouble with is when we had this conversation, I said, I see this going one of two ways. First way is you guys don't make it. You break up and then I'm left filling her position and her role and having to kind of like pick up all the pieces. Or you guys do make it, you get married, she leaves the business to raise your kids and I'm left picking up all the pieces. And in either scenario, I, I don't want that outcome. I don't want to be fully invested or like time wise into this business. We have three other businesses that couldn't.

[Nick]

You hire, replace her?

[Zoe]

Well, we, yeah, we could, but I will say we've had a lot of trouble with just trying to find the right people.

[Nick]

Sure. I mean, good help is always hard to find for sure.

[Zoe]

Right.

[Nick]

But the reality is, is they, they did make it and they got married and, and found a child from it, you know.

[Zoe]

Right.

[Nick]

So, yeah, I mean if. And business is business, you know, like it's, you know, and good help is always hard, you know, like, anyway, so. Yeah, so say more. So we're, we're.

[Zoe]

Yeah. So the business is when. So I. Okay. So I went on maternity leave when I came. So like I kind of said in the beginning, these are similar businesses, similar industry, but different brands.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Zoe]

And when I came back from maternity leave, we had a conversation and the conversation was, you're going to take the new brand, I'm going to take the established brand. There was no discussion. There was no.

[Nick]

He told you this?

[Zoe]

Yes, he told me this, which I had an issue with just, just the way it was. Like, this is what's happening when again, like, we're equal partners. Like, I feel like I should have some sort of say in what I'm doing. Because previously we had always been like, these are my strengths, these are your strengths. Let's more from like an operational standpoint in each business, do what we're good at instead of, let's separate the business and you do everything here and I'll do everything here. Just because there are certain things that I'm not good at that I don't like, I don't have any desire to do, nor do I do them well. So I, you know, try to stay away from those things or hire someone to do them. So when I came back from internally, that was the discussion. And of course I got the brand with. That was the newer one that was less established, that was also with his girlfriend at the time, now wife. And again, the one that you initially.

[Nick]

Hired her to operationally run.

[Becky]

Right.

[Zoe]

But like, the, the brand wasn't. Not that it wasn't doing fine. It was doing fine. Well, no, actually, no, let me take that back. It was not doing fine. It was like losing upwards of 15 to $20,000 on.

[Nick]

But it's not like that's. That that was your bottom line and his. You guys were still sharing in all the profits or losses. Operationally, it was just like more work for you. And he. And he was taking over something that was kind of like running. It's not running itself, but like less issues, less problems, you know.

[Zoe]

For sure. For sure. And so, yeah, so I got the business.

[Nick]

And did you push back at all when he presented this new, like, here's what we're going to do.

[Zoe]

The first conversation, I was kind of just like, not so much silent, but really, like taken aback and just kind of took it all in. And then we had a second conversation to where I addressed. It was like, hey, you just told me what was happening. You didn't give me any sort of, like, where your head was with everything and why I should be in this one versus that one. And like, why you came to this decision. And I feel like we need to be able to communicate those things to each other. So we had a secondary conversation about it.

[Nick]

And how did he handle that?

[Zoe]

His toxic trait, let's say, is he's great at verbally taking accountability for things. Like, fantastic. He'll apologize. He will say, like, I, you know, I shouldn't have done that. But then, no, there's zero Behavioral change. So in the conversation, he was remorseful and. And, you know, said, like, he shouldn't have done it that way. But then, you know, fast forward two weeks and he's back to just, like, unilaterally making decisions and not having important conversations with me and going back to the same sort of behavior that caused frustration, I guess.

[Nick]

So my question is, like, you, as you mentioned, like, you have equal, like, legally, like, it's just as much yours as his. Right. How you guys operationally go about your business might be one thing, and certainly, hopefully, you don't have to get as messy as bringing. Invoke your. Your legal rights. But, like, what's stopping you from just being like, no, I'm not. Like, you know, he can't give you orders. He can tell you what to do. You don't have to do it. He can't fire you. So, like, what is stopping you when he. When he. When he crosses a line and starts telling you what to do or just making decisions on your own? What's stopping you from pushing back and just saying, we're not doing that, and forcing his hand to respect your position in the company?

[Zoe]

I think part of it is feel somewhat like indebted to him in a way. I. I switched careers to do so. I was originally in finance, and. And it was. It was fine, but it was just boring. It wasn't what I wanted to do. And then met him and his wife.

[Nick]

They brought you in, right? So, yeah, they didn't have to, but they did. And so you're grateful for that, but grateful for that.

[Zoe]

And. And yeah, throughout Covid, I mean, he took a pay cut so that I could continue to get, like, my income. So it's just like those things like that where I feel.

[Nick]

So he's made sacrifices.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Nevertheless, if you think this is, like, a toxic trait, like, you know, do you. And do you think it's like a conscious thing, you know, do you think he's just, like, placating you by apologizing, or do you think it's just more like life comes at him fast and he feels like in the moment, he's just making a decision that whatever he thinks is best for the company and he does it. And then he's just like, not work. You know, he's just like. It's not. He's just not being considerate to his partner to say, I want to run this bayou. He's just like, I don't know. Just like, this is what. This is what we need to do. I'm just going to fucking do it. Or do you think it's more malicious than that?

[Zoe]

No, I think it's the former. In fact, he has, he has literally said exactly that. Like, I just, I will make the best decision for the company. And I think you would agree with my decision making. So that's why I do often have.

[Nick]

You, like, girlfriend now, wife aside. How often do you disagree with his.

[Zoe]

Decision making on the big things? There have been a couple instances where, where I would have liked to have been considered. Like, there was.

[Nick]

Well, there's a difference. You like to have been considered and saying, hey, man, like, I wouldn't have done that. And like the fact that you, you know, so just. I want to be clear. There's two very different situations. So what is it? Is it more the former or the latter?

[Zoe]

No, it's more the. It's. It's more the. I should have been a part of that conversation. You should not have made that decision without consulting me. There have been instances like that.

[Nick]

But was it the process or the decision that you had the problem with the decision? So you didn't like his decision?

[Zoe]

Correct.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Zoe]

Yeah. There have been big, big money costing us issues like moving forward with certain projects.

[Nick]

What did he say to that?

[Zoe]

He says, I'll, I'll do better next time, and then the next time happens, and that we're in the same exact position.

[Nick]

Okay, and what bit. You know, again, I don't know how big these decisions are, but when money is involved and he's costing you money, like, he, he, he can certainly understand that. Let me ask you this. Do you know if you were right or he was right about these decisions you didn't agree with, that he went forward without you on the ones that.

[Zoe]

We'Ve had issues with? I've been right in every single one of them.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Zoe]

So it's like, for example, moving forward with like a certain marketing company that they want 30 grand up front, and then within three months they're not performing. So it's. And we get like none of the money back or we've had issues with lease agreements where there was something that was put in the lease that, what shouldn't have been in there, and now we're on the hook for $500,000 XYZ. So things like that, where I just, like things were signed unilaterally. They. I was not brought into conversations when it's like, my name's on this.

[Nick]

How is he allowed to spend without your approval?

[Zoe]

Because he does. I don't, I don't Have a good answer for it. Because it's like, he shouldn't, but he just. He'll do it because he'll. He thinks money is, I don't know, more of a concept than a. Like, he'll just like, oh, we'll just make it back.

[Nick]

What do you think?

[Zoe]

What if we don't?

[Nick]

What do you think? I guess. How do you. How do you feel? Like he values your role in this company.

[Zoe]

That's a big part of it is. I don't think. I think he sees me as his, like, not assistant, but, like, the doer. Like, he thinks of himself as the visionary.

[Nick]

So you're Steve Jobs and you're Wozniak.

[Zoe]

Kind of thing, right? Yeah. I go out and do the thing, and he comes up with the thing.

[Nick]

What's your relationship with his new. His new wife?

[Zoe]

It's really hard for me to have a good relationship. I mean, we have a fine, cordial relationship. I know she would like there to be more.

[Nick]

Oh, she would.

[Zoe]

But it's really hard for me to separate. I think that's kind of like the crux of what I'm asking, kind of help for is how do I separate relationship, friendship from business? Because my feelings towards her are too wrapped up in. You did not deliver on what we brought you out to do, on what we paid you for, and now you have. You want, like, a friendship, but my life is worse off because of this business and the position now I am in to try to save this business. And I maybe incorrectly, like, assign blame to them for that.

[Nick]

Okay, well, I. As far as that relationship goes, and the fact that you asked him not to date her and he didn't listen to you and they ended up getting married and having kid, I definitely need to let that go.

[Zoe]

Okay.

[Nick]

I mean, they. You know, I. You were wrong. You know, it's like. And you weren't wrong about how it impact your life. You were just wrong about his love, his. His personal life. Like, you just have to be happy for him. The friend side of you needs to be happy that this man lost his wife in a very tragic and sad way and was able to find happiness again in ways that many people in his position never do. And to hold a grudge by for him not making rational decisions that. Yeah. Impacted you for sure. I think you need to offer him some grace.

[Zoe]

Okay.

[Nick]

So that in the other aspects of business where he doesn't check in with you and does things that he shouldn't do from a business standpoint, that you can just. You can. You can think more clearly about how you really feel about a situation so that you can address it honestly. So with that, I think you need to just. Yeah, especially because I was curious if she wanted to be close with you because I was wondering if, like, did she kind of like, you know, you, you were his ex wife's best friend and, you know, I was, I wasn't sure, you know, but if, if she's embracing you, I would and lean into that. I mean, it's only from, even from a business standpoint, keeping her at arm's length and holding a grudge against her for something that was outside of her control. I mean, like, she fell in love with a guy that, sure, she got a job. It's happened before. It wasn't like, certainly it wasn't like they were. He's hr, you know, so like, he took a risk, it worked out. They fell in love, they had a kid. And you certainly don't want un. Unnecessary contention where he feels like he has to protect his relationship over his business partner. You know, it's just like, it's unnecessary drama and tension and energy that like, you just, you kind of need to get over again so that you can, like, address the more relevant issues with a clear mind and not allow them to project any like, you know, because right now they would be in a position to like, make excuses. But like, oh, well, you're just, you don't even allow her to come in. You know, it's like you're not, you don't, you know, it's like, do you have an issue? Like, you blame it on, you know, grudges?

[Zoe]

Right.

[Nick]

And it would, they would be partly right, you know, so, yeah, I would, I would let that go if you can, because they were right. And then as far as the other stuff, I think you just, you know, you got to be a little bit more stern and you have to be willing to say no, you know, and say, hey, man, like, I, I can't. I don't. One, I, I don't want to keep doing what I'm doing in the manner in which I'm doing. And two, I can't, you know, I'm burning out. I need, I need you to step in and help and you apologize for things that you, I don't feel like you're sorry for because it doesn't change what you're doing. And then at some point, you're just going to have to invoke the power that you do have and, and try to stop him from doing it and be, you know, I don't know, a little bit more difficult in that regard.

[Zoe]

We've had that conversation that you, you said at the very end of, I'm burnt out, I need help twice in the last three weeks, four weeks. And I mean, he'll, he'll help. His, his way of helping is, what do you need help with? And I can appreciate the, the asking for help, but there, it's like I, I am working from 6am to 10pm Some days it's like, I just need you to come in to the store and just, just be the, be the person who's there. But he does not want to do that either.

[Nick]

Do you?

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

The difference is you're willing to show up and he doesn't.

[Zoe]

Yes.

[Nick]

I mean, if it comes down to it, you just be like, hey, I'm not coming in today. This is what I'm hearing from you. But, like, it sounds like he just knows that you're gonna show up, so he doesn't. And I hate that guy. Like, it's like if you've gotten to this point, I mean, if you have a business partner where you're saying, I need help, and he's like, yeah, sure. But like, doesn't, you know, when it's like, hey, I. I'm working 18 hours a day every day. I can't keep doing that. I got, I got, I got kids too. I got a family. I got, you know, I'm burnt out. I'm like, if you're not going to help me, then this. We're going to suffer. And you got to make your problem his problem.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And right now it's still not a problem for, for, for him because you get the job done.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know.

[Zoe]

Yeah. I don't like, like letting people down. I don't like, you know, I have to feel like I have a staff that depends on me. And, you know.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, I think you just need to keep fighting with him a little bit. You know, not fighting, but you just, you, you have to be less of a pushover, I guess. And then I, you know, you have to just not take no action for an answer and you have to keep complaining until he. It's just like, dude, is it like you, you kind of ask, are you going to make me just not show up and let this business fail and have it cost both of us? Because, like, again, I just simply can't keep doing this. Is he working 18 hours a day?

[Zoe]

No.

[Nick]

And you can say like, I don't know, maybe. Maybe we should just get rid of this, you know, like, I don't. Is he benefiting from your hard work in a way that, like, could he afford for, you know, what if, like, just, just game theory kind of thing? Let's say you just said, fuck it. I'm not, I'm quit. Operationally, I. I'm not. I quit, like, not necessarily because, like, again, you're playing the role of an employee. Yeah, right. Like, you still own the business. You could quit as an employee and then, like, you know, let the chips fall where they may. And if you, if you guys make money, you take the money. If you lose money, well, it costs you both. But, like, operationally, you could, you could quit. You know, like, again, I'm not saying you're going to, and I'm not saying that's the best option, but, like, just what would he do? Is it. Would it. Would it cost him so much that he would feel it?

[Zoe]

It's. Yeah, he has money. We both have money invested into the business. So if, if it were to not exist anymore, we'd both be out quite a bit. Quite a good, good chunk.

[Nick]

Yeah. That's the part you got to get through to him. And quite honestly, if you would just let go of the other stuff. So you have this woman who wants to be your friend, and you don't want to be her friend over grudge. She could be an ally, but you're not allowing her to be an ally.

[Zoe]

What way do you see her as an ally?

[Nick]

Well, I don't know if you built a relationship, like, not that I want. Like, I don't. I hope this isn't hurtful, but let's, let's just. What if that tragedy didn't happen? How would that have changed the dynamic? Like, would you have gone to her and said, how would she have played a role, your best friend?

[Zoe]

Oh, in this situation, yeah.

[Nick]

Let's say the tragedy didn't happen. But, you know, he started making decisions that you felt impacted this way. Would you go to her?

[Zoe]

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[Nick]

Would she have helped bridge the gap between whatever misunderstanding you and him had?

[Zoe]

So this is where it's like, it's really tough because, I mean, I understand you're asking hypothetical, but, like, this scenario wouldn't. This wouldn't be an issue because we would. Him and I would be way more like, compatible. We'd still be on the same page with things. I feel like because of her death, we've, like, we don't communicate as well anymore. We don't. You know, we. And that's where I was saying at the beginning, like, the friendship has just kind of, like, decayed over time.

[Nick]

I guess that's what I'm saying. Right. Because if I'm hearing you right, there's obviously a lot of pain from that tragedy, and you've acknowledged that when it comes to his relationship with his new wife, you have just been kind of like, I don't know. Unless, like, you haven't really fully embraced it. Right. And that only creates more tension. Right, Right. And I'm just saying, like, if. If you allow this woman who wants to be closer with you, who wants to have you more of a friend, if she was more of your friend, then maybe she could help with that communication that you and him no longer have. She was your best friend, and you were friends with him through her, and you both lost her. Right. And I. I don't know. You're feeling, you know, I. I truly sorry this happened. This is devastating story. But, yeah, maybe there's some guilt of replacing your. I don't know. Right. I don't know. But work through that therapy, whatever, her. But, like, yeah. I mean, if you feel like there's just, like, this disconnect that never went away after her passing, and you can acknowledge that you have kept his new wife, your former employee, at arm's length, then she could be the solution to these problems.

[Zoe]

Mm.

[Nick]

What are you feeling right now?

[Zoe]

Yeah, I. I understand. I hear what you're saying. I can see. See that it's. It's. Yeah, it's hard to. It's hard for me to want to be close with her, not just as feeling like a replacement of my friend, but that is. That feeling is there for sure. Like, I. It feels like he's replaced her. And so part of me, like, needs to. Not in order to. Not necessarily keep her memory alive, but just, like, honor her, I guess, in a way.

[Nick]

So, yeah, I mean, it makes sense, but it's also not. It makes sense, but it's not. Your approach isn't, I guess, a. I don't think it's very healthy. This is not my expert opinion. Not an expert opinion, but it doesn't sound that healthy. I understand where you're coming from, but you can honor your friend. Like, she has nothing to do with the way you honor her.

[Zoe]

Sure.

[Nick]

Right. And obviously, he is allowed to find love again and how he went about it. Certainly we can pick it apart. And whether it was too fast or too soon, I don't know. Maybe it was. Maybe it was a gift for. Maybe he sees it like a gift from God. I don't. You know, who knows? Like, I don't. Again, this is a terrible, terrible tragedy. Like, the worst kind. And I don't know how you get over that. You don't get over it. You live with it. You learn how to manage it. That's kind of. That is part of life. You deal with it. It's a scar. It will always be there, but you work through it, and you get to a place where that scar fades and it hurts a little bit less. Did you. I mean, how did you grieve?

[Zoe]

It's. It's like an ongoing process, because when she passed, I was eight months pregnant with my daughter. And so I think part of that. I think I know part of me almost, like, blocked it a little bit. I was.

[Nick]

You had to protect your child.

[Zoe]

Yeah. And I was very much, like, operationally, like, get the staff into therapy, do group sessions with them, and, you know, just because everyone was so. Our staff was like a family. And how can I protect him and get him out of the business so he can be with their daughters? And. And didn't really fully, like, absorb it. People kept checking in on me, and I was like, I'm okay, guys.

[Becky]

I'm okay.

[Zoe]

And genuinely felt like that. And then when my brother died, which was seven months after that, it was like. It, like the ground underneath me was, like, disappearing. Like, I felt like. Like my world was literally, like, crumbling. And then obviously, five months after that, with my dad dying, it was just like, zick. The compounding effect of these three deaths so close together, it's like I haven't been able to sit down with any one specific one and, like, deal with it. So. Yeah, so, like, my. My process has been, like, all over the place for the last two years. And I mean, like, that part of the grief process is obviously, like, there's a lot of anger in it. And I. Part of me wonders, like, how much of that anger is being misdirected at him. Because I don't want to be blindly angry at him, but I also don't, to your point, want to be, like, a pushover and let him do things, because I have one. Sympathy for him. And then acknowledging, well, am I overreacting in this scenario? So because everything's so messy in the way our, like, families and lives are tied together, it's really hard to, like, kind of branch apart what is genuine. Like, no, you were wrong. You should not have done that. And what is. I'm having a. A bad day because I saw a picture of my brother in the Morning. So.

[Nick]

Yeah. Are you. I mean, I'm. It doesn't sound like you have time to deal with. With your emotions.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Are you in therapy, dealing with this?

[Zoe]

I. Yeah, I have a. Like a grief group therapy session that I go to.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Zoe]

But that's. That's newer.

[Nick]

It's newer. All new.

[Zoe]

Yeah. In the last four weeks.

[Nick]

Okay. Find it helpful?

[Zoe]

Yeah, yeah. There are parts of it. Of it that are helpful, for sure. I'm. I'm like the. I'm the type person who's like, I want steps. I want. That's why I wanted to, like, talk to you, because I was like, I. I really value what you like, the advice you give. I think most of the time I'm like, yeah, that's exactly, exactly how would I think about it. And so it's like, with. With my scenario, I feel like I can't be clearly. So I want someone to be like, nope, like, let it go. Or like, no, like, dig in deeper. So it's. I like to have to have. Do this, do this, do this. And.

[Nick]

Yeah. I don't know if your situation is as simple as you wish it was.

[Zoe]

Yeah, for sure.

[Nick]

Because. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I do think as far as her and him and that relationship. Yeah. I guess I think you need to go over it. I think it would serve you well to do that. I understand the challenges behind that and the kind of layers of pain and, And. And the subconscious fallout from you doing that and the guilt you might feel. And there's. It's. It's a lot. There's a lot there.

[Zoe]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, I think this group grief thing seems. Is good. Right. Some individual therapy might be helpful to just to like, you know, workshop this stuff. Because, I mean, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, you know, and the challenge is because, again, because you're not. I mean, my biggest advice to you is you just got it. You really got to carve out the time to heal, and you're not, and you haven't. And you have spent the past two years being a mom, focusing on your family, protecting your business, protecting your family, protecting everyone but yourself. And it's caught up with you. And the good news is you still seem pretty put together. But my concern for you is that if you don't. If you don't start taking care of yourself, it's going to get worse and worse and you'll get less confident in yourself and you will just. You won't really know how to read a situation without biased or, you know, you can listen to Ask Nick episodes all you want and agree with me, but when it comes to your own life, you're going to have a harder and harder time making, you know, clear decisions because you just, you're just, you're too broken without having healed.

[Zoe]

Right.

[Nick]

I, I feel pretty confident in saying that. As far as your disconnect with your business partner, I honestly think she's the key.

[Zoe]

All right, I will work on it. I think to your point, I'm not.

[Nick]

Saying call her up and be like you want to be with friends, but just acknowledge.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That reality and take your time with it, but just be, just try it out. But like, again, that's where, you know, maybe talk about that in, in your group therapy. You know, it's an interesting situation, certainly I think everyone would listen, that's for sure. It's a fascinating story, but I bet you could probably get some help from that group on, on how to deal with that. I, I, I would be willing to bet everyone in that group can relate to the feelings of guilt from moving on and the, and the wanting to protect the legacy of a friend who is no longer with you. Whether it's a friend or a child or a parent or a spouse, I bet that group can very much relate to that in ways that I, I can't. You know, and I bet they'd be able to help you with that because when I said, you know, I think she's the key, there's the idea of it just like it does not sit well with you. It's like it's, it's, you really have a mental hurdle clearly over it.

[Zoe]

Yeah. I think that the hurdle is that because you bring up the point like you haven't made time to grieve, take care of yourself and that I don't deny that that's 100% the case. And I think my response is, well, I don't have the time because, and again, I fully acknowledge misplaced blame and anger. But like, because she's no longer a part of the business, I'm now having to do my role plus hers.

[Nick]

Yeah, I think I, I don't know your day to day. I would chat like you a, you have to make the time. Right. Here's an analogy for you. I think what you're saying to me is, this is what I'm hearing from you, okay, I'm driving a car, it's almost out of gas and I'm late for my meeting and if I stop for gas, I'm going to be even more late. But I don't have enough gas to get there. So, like, which one's the better option?

[Zoe]

Right.

[Nick]

Neither are great, you know, are ideal. But one is a clearly a better solution than the other.

[Zoe]

Right.

[Nick]

Because running out of gas before you get there, you're going to miss the meeting. You're not even going to be late. You're just not going to show up.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So you have to find the time. You have to make the time. And if that means having. Just coming clean with your business partner to say, I'm breaking down, I'm falling apart, I'm in group therapy, I need to take some mental health. I'm not quitting. But if I. And I, you know, maybe that specific ass to say, I'm not doing okay. I'm struggling with everything. And I just, I'm still here. But if I don't deal with this, I'm worried about what could happen. I don't think he would ignore that. I hope not. Certainly I think you both understand the value of dealing and addressing a mental health crisis.

[Zoe]

Right. Okay.

[Nick]

So I think the big takeaway is remembering that gas analogy and stop making excuses to why you don't have time to deal with not having been able to deal with it yet.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And then, you know, just, just a. She's not going to replace her. She's just not. Just put up with her and just let her think, you know, just. I'm not saying use her, but you know what I'm saying? Like you're. She's not going to replace her, so you don't have to even worry about that. But you, you can. She can be someone who helps you, you know, and if she's feeling like she's helping you, she will be more inclined to help you.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

She probably wants so badly to be welcomed by you because she knows you were best friends with her husband's widow and she'd probably be willing to do things for you that you probably. You don't even realize just to curry your favorite. You don't strike me as someone who takes advantage of people. Quite the opposite. I think people are more inclined to take advantage of you and your work ethic. So I think you have to challenge yourself to try to see her as an asset and ask for her help. You're not good at asking for help. That's obvious. I don't even know why I'm asking that. You need to get better at asking for help.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Zoe]

Okay.

[Nick]

It's great when you do. People want to help people. And honestly, when you ask for help you give people an opportunity to feel good about themselves. Everyone wants to be helpful. Most people want to be helpful. It makes people feel good.

[Zoe]

Okay.

[Nick]

It's like, why, when you call customer service with a problem, you don't say, I have a problem. You say, I need your help. You call some up. You say, I have a problem. They're like, well, good for you. When people say, can you help me? They're like, oh, well, let's see. I would love to play superhero today. Yeah, you're. You got to stop being everyone else's superhero. Let. Let others. You got to let people be there for you.

[Zoe]

Okay.

[Nick]

And that's a. That's a you problem. You could work on that in your individual therapy.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay. Does this help?

[Zoe]

I will definitely. It is. It is.

[Michelle]

I appreciate it.

[Nick]

Well, thanks for allowing me to help you. Thanks for calling in and asking for help. It's a step in the right direction. Yeah, you do more of that.

[Zoe]

Yeah, I will do more of that.

[Nick]

Because it sounds like, overall, despite all this terrible tragedy, you guys got a good thing going. You got a successful business that's doing okay and survived Covid and survived these terrible tragedies, and it's still going in a world where a lot of people, like, don't have successful businesses. And it's not, you know, and there's a disconnect between your partner, but it's not. It doesn't sound, like, incredibly toxic or anything. It's just a little bit of he's trying to get his life on track, and he's, you know, and you're trying to get yours, and you're both just kind of surviving, you know what I'm saying? She didn't deal with this tragedy. You both did. Let her help.

[Zoe]

Okay. Okay, I will.

[Nick]

You did at one point. You hired her to do a job, and she maybe doesn't want, you know, but so. So she even has a skill set to literally help, you know, she's not just like some sort of trad wife, you know, who's just there.

[Zoe]

Yeah.

[Becky]

Okay.

[Zoe]

Well, work on reaching out to her.

[Nick]

Okay. Well, more than reaching out to her. Don't run out of gas.

[Zoe]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Nick]

All right, I'll keep you posted.

[Zoe]

Okay.

[Nick]

All right, Take care.

[Zoe]

Thank you, too.

[Nick]

All right. Bye. Bye.

[Zoe]

Bye.

[Jenna]

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[Nick]

How's it going?

[Michelle]

Hi, I'm Michelle, 33, and I'm trying to be a good mom without cutting out my own.

[Nick]

All right, well, talk to me about why you're considering cutting out your mom.

[Michelle]

There's a lot to it, but essentially, to sum it up, my mom is an alcoholic and has been for the bulk of my life.

[Nick]

Okay. Is she. Does she recognize her problem or. I mean, that's probably a loaded question, but does she? Yeah. Does she know she's an alcoholic? Has she said the words I'm an.

[Michelle]

Alcoholic at one point in her life?

[Nick]

Yes, she did.

[Michelle]

She was actually sober for a little over 10 years at one point, but then she decided it was okay to drink again. And if you asked her today, I guarantee she would say she's fine. She's not an alcoholic.

[Nick]

Okay. All right. Well, that sucks. I'm sorry.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, so you mentioned you have a daughter. How old? Your daughter?

[Michelle]

She's three.

[Nick]

Three. Well, congratulations.

[Michelle]

Thank you.

[Nick]

How is that manifesting into issues with her being around your daughter?

[Michelle]

Well, I will say it's a good thing because we do not Live close. We live states away.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Michelle]

So that's probably helped my sanity a little bit.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

But, you know, her being a baby and whatnot really wasn't an issue. It was more of a me thing and something I was trying to work on myself and just try to, like, lean on my husband for support. And he understands. Right. And I did draw boundaries with her. I set things even when I was pregnant and had a conversation with her. That's before she started drinking again. But I still had a reset with her.

[Nick]

So her starting to drink again is relatively recent.

[Michelle]

I had my daughter like 2021 into 2021. So, yeah, it was like variant Covid times. She kind of decided to kickstart again.

[Nick]

That sucks. I imagine that happened with a lot of recovering alcoholics, I bet.

[Michelle]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's not uncommon, for sure.

[Nick]

Okay, continue.

[Michelle]

Well, I mean, essentially I kind of sat with her, had a very deep con conversation, felt that it went well. She wasn't drinking at the time. You know, she told me she was going to drink again at some point. My daughter was probably a few months old. I'm going through so much at that point in time that that was the last thing I needed to hear.

[Nick]

Just kind of curious. What made you sit down with your mom to set some boundaries when she wasn't even drinking?

[Michelle]

My therapist.

[Nick]

But what was your mom doing?

[Michelle]

She's still an addict at the end of the day, without the alcohol. She never did the work to work on herself. She still has addictive tendencies. She just fueled the alcohol, switched it with, like, caffeine. So she was drinking Constance, amount of just Starbucks and you name it sugar. Right. You know what, it's better than alcohol. But it didn't. She never worked on herself. She never actually went to therapy. She just went to a. And stopped drinking. Great. But she never actually tried to make amends. She never had a conversation with me anyone. Like, she just stop drinking. Which, hey, like, cool, but there's a lot more there. And we never had a great relationship. So going into it, I had a lot of anxiety, you know, like, I don't want us not having a good relationship to be a reason why I don't let you in with my daughter is kind of the conversation. But I also wanted to set boundaries with her to respect me, you know, as a person, as a mom. So that's kind of where that all came in because we kind of butt heads a lot just because she has a hard time not seeing that, you know, I'm not her baby anymore. But she was never really a mom to me, so I think she kind of struggles with that a bit. Asked her to go to therapy with me, and she declined. So, I mean, that was the best I could do at that point in time.

[Nick]

Okay, what would cause you from actually limiting your mom's access to your daughter to the point where she really wouldn't have a relationship with her, to where.

[Michelle]

Say, I'd be very concerned about safety.

[Nick]

Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, I'm guessing right now, like, regardless, like, I mean, you can never let your daughter have a sleepover at grandma's house, and she could still have a relationship with her. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, you could say, mom, I'm not comfortable with you taking her to an amusement park or the zoo. And you could. She could still have a relationship with your daughter like you. It could be supervised visits. So. But like, you know what I'm saying? Like.

[Michelle]

But it becomes tricky.

[Nick]

How so?

[Michelle]

Because I'm the only one. I'm much older than my siblings, so they don't. They didn't really go through her with alcoholism. Our family is a very joint unit. I moved away, so I'm dates away. They all live in the same state. She's also the first granddaughter, only grandchild.

[Nick]

Are some of the siblings still minors?

[Michelle]

No. Finally 21. So they're not minors, technically. Are they mature? No.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Michelle]

They were babied because my mom was trying to make up for lost time, for sure. But my parents are also still together, and that's also a bit of a struggle because I'm very, very close with my dad. But two things we don't talk about politics and my mom, because I think he. It's very hard for me to comprehend why he's stuck with her, because we both have been through quite a lot. And I get it. Marriage is something you work at. I'm married, but I'll never be able to fully comprehend. Right. So the dynamics of the family. I think I take on the brunt of me even laying down new boundaries. I'm very aware that there will likely be rips within the family due to my mom's antics.

[Nick]

Give me an example.

[Michelle]

She'll just ostracize or play the victim. And a lot of people feed into that, and a lot of people.

[Nick]

But give me an example about the boundary you might have to set that would ultimately.

[Michelle]

Well, I had one already actually, that was broken. I actually talked to my dad specifically and told my dad, hey, I do not feel comfortable Nor does my husband. When our daughter is alone with my mom. Because she's a functioning alcoholic. Yes, but you don't know when she's drinking. She's probably always drinking. She always has a red solo cup. Right. You never know what's in it. And so I told my dad I don't feel comfortable with her being alone. So you need to be there, like, if you want to be present grandparents. And I hate to say this, but it's like, if mom wants to be with her, you need to be there, too.

[Nick]

And what would you be doing in this scenario? Or your husband.

[Michelle]

They want to give us a date night or something, right? Like, go grab some coffee and we'll watch her while we. While y' all are visiting or something. So they have a lake house. They might take her out on the boat, Right? We might stay in, like, things like that. And that sounds great, but I always am thinking, like, what's gonna happen? Like, kind of thing. It's just a concern I always have.

[Nick]

And I guess. Are you saying, like, when you enforce this boundary, then you feel like the bad? Like, your dad's like, come on, or. And your siblings are like, come on. Why are you being like this to Mom?

[Michelle]

My siblings, very much so. My dad understands.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Michelle]

But it's been broken. Where. I think my dad became a little bit more lenient, and I was like, it's fine. And my mom's, like, taking her out to lunch without telling us, and we found out later, and we're like, I mean, yeah, everything was fine, but it's like, you did exactly what we asked you not to. And I said that, but my mom swears she wasn't drinking. And it. I'm like, I still don't have the trust, unfortunately. So, like, you can say those things, but doesn't resolve. And there's been instances where my mom has been. My daughter was younger and clearly not aware. But the other concern is my daughter is she's very aware. She's very smart. She's also bilingual, so she. She's. She. She's very aware now. But, you know, my mom has been drunk with my daughter alone before, and I caught her, and I was livid. It was during Thanksgiving. My dad had Covid, so he was quarantined, like, in a room. My mom was drinking. It was the world cup, and my mom was like, don't worry. Your dad's right there. You know, we'll talk through the door. You go watch the game real quick. And we're in a really small town, so it's like five minutes away. And I was like, okay. Like, so we did. I had anxiety the entire time. I came back and sure enough, my husband walked into the door. He's like, hey, where's. Where's our daughter? She's taking a nap. Okay. He went and checked on her, came back, we're talking, and my mom's like, oh, when'd y' all get here? Where's your husband? I was like, you just talked to him? And then I looked at her and I was like, you're drunk. Like you just forgot you spoke to your son in law. You know, I was just like, at that point, I just, I knew I would react.

[Nick]

She was napping though.

[Michelle]

Yes. And we did have a monitor and we're able to go back and she had just put her down like five minutes, minutes ago, like from when we got home. So I'm like, she clearly got drunk in a span of time. So I, I mean, she was fine, but it just, it's not cool. So.

[Nick]

For sure. So you, when you first call, you said, you know, you're, you're trying to figure out how. Well, how do you phrase it?

[Michelle]

I'm trying to figure out how to be a good mom without cutting out my own.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Michelle]

Essentially.

[Nick]

But I guess, you know, if, if we're just taking that statement at face value. Right. Like, how close are you to cutting out your mom?

[Michelle]

So I'll also be candid. I recently found out I'm pregnant again.

[Nick]

Congratulations.

[Michelle]

Thank you. It's very early, but I'm. I'm struggling with it even more because I, I never. And I had this realization with my husband. You know, when we got married, we talked about everything and I never wanted to be that person, to be, like, put my relationships onto others. So I didn't even do it to my husband. He formed his own opinions. Right. Obviously, he was always supportive to me and knew of things, but he came to terms in his own time. But I don't want to put that upon my daughter and I. It's very hard. So I'm essentially worried by cutting out my mom, I'm taking that away from my daughter.

[Becky]

And.

[Nick]

But again, like. But I think there's a huge difference between not taking mom up on the offer of babysitting your kids so that you can watch the World cup and cutting out your mom completely, you know?

[Michelle]

Yeah. But even when we're just around as a family, like, I will say that she's just. Her antics, her just.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

She's still drinking around the family and the Thing is, it's still not cool, like, and my daughter will see that and you know, like, she's gonna recognize that. And I can tell you from experience, because my mom's mom was an alcoholic. And I remember her mom, you know, so there's some, there's some family, childhood trauma. I recognize it. But I've sought the help my mom has not, you know, and I can tell you, growing up, I remember a lot of things, not just from my mom, but from my grandma who was an alcoholic. And I don't want that. 4. I mean, you learned a lot, it shaped you, but it's not something a 4, 5 year old should have to witness. So, you know, I just.

[Nick]

So here's what I'm hearing from you. I'm hearing just a lot of, and understandably so, anger and resentment towards your mom.

[Michelle]

Oh, yeah.

[Nick]

And I'm hearing that you kind of feel a bit on an island as it relates to the rest of your family with your feelings towards your mom. Your dad might be the closest person who understands your plight, but it's, it's his wife. And you know, like you said, you know, it's not, it's not even your job to understand why your dad has chosen to stay with your mom. And it's not the same as a parent, child relationship or a friend or whatever. You know, I think you're doing everything you can. And I think if anything, what you really. If my opinion, what you really need to try to work on is the anger and resentment towards your mom.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, because I don't have the anger and resentment towards your mom. Right. So when I hear your story, all I'm hearing is, well, listen, it's not ideal, certainly not what you want. It's certainly not the best case scenario, but your kids, if you allow it, can certainly have a relationship with grandma. And yeah, like you, you're gonna have to be extra diligent, more diligent than you'd want to be with your own mom. You're not going to be completely able to avoid a moment where your child sees grandma drunk. But you're also not going to raise bubble kids and they're going to see, they're going to be around people. Those are always teachable moments. And the fact that you are conscious of this concern and you're aware of it, you will do your part sort of like again, the genetics of alcoholism, and I don't know how that all works, but in terms of allowing your mom to be a role model to your kids, I think you can make sure that doesn't happen.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I mean, it sucks because as much as like you can love someone and not like them.

[Becky]

Right.

[Michelle]

Love my mom.

[Nick]

That's called family. That's literally the definition of family.

[Michelle]

Do not choose family. We say that all the time in this household. But you know, I still do in a weird way, look up to my mom. She worked. You know, my mom was a hard working mom. She was the breadwinner. At one point she showed me like, women are strong, right. So, like there are teachable moments, there are things from her. I want more of that side for, you know, my granddaughter or for, excuse me, for my daughter. But it's just like I'm projecting and I recognize that. Done a lot of therapy and I've also learned that in therapy, my resentment and anger, you know, I can continue to work on it, but it probably won't ever fully go away. And that's okay. Probably not.

[Nick]

Not without your mom making some changes, for sure.

[Michelle]

And that's, that's the point. And I also have to come to terms and it's, it's been a long time in therapy, you know, so it's continuous work. But I don't know that it's, it's an acceptance and it's slowly baby stepping to like the acceptance that she probably won't.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, you took the words out of my mouth, I guess. You know, I would, I probably would push back a little bit on the resentment and anger that you feel always being there. I mean, sure, always. Like, again, like it's a spectrum, I suppose. Right. But I think you, you can work on that resentment and anger, neutralize it.

[Michelle]

A little more maybe.

[Nick]

So that just simply has a less, less of an impact on your decisions that you make. Because right now what I'm hearing is that it is hard for you to separate your resentment and anger when it comes to just how you see your mom and decisions that you make and just how you generally feel towards your mom. And I think that, yeah, there's. You probably, you know, because. Yeah, you can replace resentment and anger with empathy. Yeah.

[Michelle]

And I teeter totter at times. Right. Like I, in a weird way I understand, but it, you know, I also don't.

[Nick]

The part of you that, the part of you that doesn't want to let, I mean, I'm guessing the part of you that doesn't want to let go of the anger and resentment and replace it with empathy, because on some level, subconsciously, I suppose empathy almost sounds like you're giving up and just Accepting that this is who your mom is. And there's probably a part of you that still believes that your mom is capable of making positive changes. She kicked it once, not necessarily in the best possible way. And maybe it was maybe, you know, she didn't see it through. And, you know, knowing that she kind of always disappointed in the back of her mind was going to pick back up drinking, as if she could, and again replaced alcohol with other forms of sugar, caffeine, whatever. And so if you have no expectations of someone, then it's easy to pity them. You know, it's like you pity people that you have nothing, you know, and pity is, I guess, part of empathy. You know, it's a little. I don't know. I don't know where you put in the family, but it sounds shittier than empathy. Empathy sounds nicer than pity. I'd rather have people's empathy. I don't want their pity. Yeah, but honestly, what's the difference? If you need people to empathize with you, then I suppose you need their pity. I don't know. I don't even know. I wonder what the dictionary says in terms of the definitions. I'd be curious. But what I'm hearing is that's the. That's what you're really struggling with, because I'm not hearing we need to cut off Grandma. Like, I'm not hearing that we haven't hit that point.

[Michelle]

I'm worried about that point.

[Nick]

Sure. No, but, like, let's cross that bridge when it gets there. But I also, you know, I think there's a difference between not having the relationship that you wish your kids would have with grandma if she was healthy, and the boundaries that you're forced to set with mom that stops her from organically having your normal grandma child relationship that I imagine you envisioned for yourself and for your mom in a perfect scenario, and that is causing that anger and resentment. And I'm guessing there's a part of you that's thinking, my own kids aren't enough for you to just deal with your fucking shit.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Yeah. I think going back to. Honestly, part of the, you know, I always didn't have a great relationship. Kind of starting to rebuild to some extent with my mom. You know, when she was sober, I knew it was never going to be a hundred, you know, percent. But we. We were getting better. You know, we would talk more often. We. We like, never talk now, you know, so it's just when my daughter facetimes her, which I keep that open all the time, they facetime like, almost every day, you know, But. Yeah, but I had. I think I had hope. And then when the actions, you know, and everything started back up, I think the hope just kind of, you know, I built up all this hope of, like, how my mom was going to be helpful and she was going to come out and, you know, help me with her first grandchild and stuff, but she didn't. You know, my daughter was actually born right around Christmas time, the holidays. My parents are retired. My siblings are either, like, you know, single, young, or in college. And so they very easily. I was like, why don't we do Christmas here? Like, we have tons of time to plan it. It'd be great. My mom came out while I was pregnant and toward the end, and I was going to be induced, so. But she kept asking, like, when is it? When is it? I was like, well, we have to wait till they call me in because there's Covid procedures. So just, you know, you know, I'm waiting too. I'm the one that should be anxious, you know. But she. She started getting a certain way. My dad actually was like, I'd take her out of the house. Funny enough, we got the call to come in when that happened, so we did. And then I, obviously was in the hospital for a couple days and came home with our daughter, and my mom held her once, turned to my dad and said, we gotta hit the road. They left. That's my core memory.

[Nick]

So, just out of curiosity, is there any frustration with your dad by not saying no?

[Michelle]

I think my dad doesn't want to, like, push her off the rocker, if you will. Like, my dad's, you know, that's where I struggle a little bit. My. My dad will sometimes be like, hey, you know. But for the most part, he just kind of will go along with things because he's just like, it is what it is. And funny enough, my dad came back on his own without her. She could have come.

[Nick]

Your mom. Your mom's sick.

[Michelle]

I know. So it.

[Becky]

It's.

[Michelle]

It's just hard. I had this, like, probably on me to build up, like, a picture or an idea.

[Nick]

Yeah. You know, but minus the alcoholism. Why are. Why were some other reasons why growing up, you and your mom didn't have the best relationship. Relationship.

[Michelle]

It was primarily that, but sure.

[Nick]

But I guess more in terms of, like, I'm sure alcoholism was, like, the catalyst for her actions, but I guess.

[Michelle]

Yeah, my mom had a lot of. Well, I'm very aware, like, her mom was an alcoholic, and so she had a lot of Childhood trauma herself. It was very obvious she was depressed and has anxiety. I mean, it's not diagnosed, but it's pretty clear. You know, I didn't know that as a kid. I recognize that now, but I can see now, like, some of the things she did, how it took its toll on me. Just some of the way she talked or, like, she would just burst, you know, with emotion. And that's something I've learned to, like, withhold. Right. Go to therapy, do different outlets. Like, I don't want my child to see me scream in rage for no reason or directed at them, you know, when it's not like there's a difference between discipline and, you know, just pure rage on something else and redirecting it towards your child. So it's a lot of that as a child as well that I had. And my parents both worked full time, so when I got to see them, wasn't often. And when I did, that's what I saw. And a lot of fighting as well, and a lot of drinking.

[Nick]

Yeah, this is not probably anything you want to hear. Maybe you haven't already been told, but, yeah, I think it's. You seem to be really struggling with the anger and resentment that again, obviously understandable and justifiable and the expectations you had of your mom. But you've told stories in this conversation of examples of positive examples she's shown you with her work ethic as a working woman who's took care of her family, however she did it, still a positive example. She's also been a negative example of ways in which you made it very clear how you don't want to be around your children. And however we learn lessons, you know, I think we. We have to remind ourselves that we. To be grateful for those lessons, even if those lessons manifested in ways that, like, we would, you know, like, I'm sure we. We learn a lot of lessons. We're like, I. I could have probably learned this with a lot less pain and suffering, you know, as opposed to. But I don't know, we tell ourselves that, but maybe not. I don't know. I think what's clear is that your mom is obviously sick. You want.

[Jenna]

Want your kids have a relationship with.

[Nick]

Your mom, but you also want to have a relationship with your mom. And you know that you can't have the relationship with your mom and your kids can have the relationship with your mom the way you wish you could. And that just pisses you off. And there's just so much anger around that. And I totally get it, but holding on to that anger doesn't get you very far.

[Michelle]

No, no, not at all.

[Nick]

So I just.

[Michelle]

I know.

[Nick]

Yeah. One thing I would suggest trying out. You know, you said the phone's always open for, for grandma to call your 3 year old. What's stopping you from still checking in on mom, knowing that she's a sick woman who. And when you call, she's probably gonna be drunk and she's probably gonna piss you off, but like, just accepting where your mom is at, not necessarily accepting that, like you're okay with it. You know, you don't have to be okay with it. But she is. She's sick. I mean, it's, it's, It's a sickness. And you're. Again, like you're, you're. I think you're struggling is because you see what she's capable of. You know, she's not totally lost and, you know, but like, maybe there's a part that's just, just a little more empathy and love from you and reaching out to mom. It's not going to change anything. I. And that's the thing, maybe in the past. I think my guess is, you know, we do things because we hope there's something good that's going to come of it. Because, like, I don't think, you know, I'm not saying, hey, reach out to mom because, like, like she's gonna wake up and have an epiphany, you know, this isn't like me saying, oh, don't, don't call him so that he misses you, you know, type of thing. If someone's calling about a dating situation, like, this isn't like, do a. So this happens. I don't know what's gonna make your mom want to get healthy. Maybe nothing. Maybe, you know, I don't know. Yeah, but there's a part that you're choosing to push mom away and maybe in ways you don't necessarily need to as it relates to your children's safety. Yeah, there's just a little bit of. There's just a little bit of.

[Michelle]

I think there's a little selfishness on my end, you know, to some degree where it's like, I could reach out to her personally more often, but I've kind of chosen not to because, I.

[Nick]

Mean, I totally get it. I mean, you're talking to the guy who's the king of, like, I don't want to deal with them, so I don't.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I'm, I'm really good at, at keeping my peace, you know, and I'm. I'M good at doing it pretty guilt free, you know. But I guess my point is you're only. There's a part of your actions that are only hurting you. You have hurt. Right. So it's. It's pain and it's affecting you, and that's the part I would love for you to try to tweak because it's. Again, it's only hurting you. And that's kind of. It says that that's up to you. And can you go to a place where you can accept where your mom's at at this moment and see her as a sick person, but still, you know, be a little closer to her than you are and make those calls that she's probably, you know, I don't know whether she makes them or not, but.

[Michelle]

And then, no, it's another thing that I struggle with, you know, it's always me. So it's just like sometimes I'm just like, ugh. You know, like. And sometimes I know I'm not in the right headspace, which is why I don't. But, you know, I think that's another part of it. It's like I'm always doing the heavy lifting, which is tiring, you know, and I think.

[Nick]

Yeah, but there's also a party that's probably like, I don't like, well, I didn't sign up to have a third child with my mom.

[Michelle]

100.

[Nick]

You got to parent your mom and she wasn't there for you. You know, it's just like, wait, I get to parent you now? And you didn't even parent me. I, I mean, I get all your anger, you know, I get it. And it's all very justified. It's just. You still have a choice.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, it's just one of those things where, you know, if some. I don't want to, like, put it out there, but if you lost the opportunity to ever communicate with your mom again, let's say a month from now, it might change your decision tree.

[Michelle]

Oh, yeah.

[Nick]

And you would swallow your pride in anger and you would. And, and you would just take the mom. Whatever your mom was available. Whatever mom was available to you. That's the mom you would take if you knew you had four weeks left of mom.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I think about that all the time too, to be honest. Yeah.

[Nick]

And we just don't know if it's four weeks or 40 more years in the meantime, you know, again, you're going to have to recognize that part of your decisions are hurting you too. And that's the part you should just every day challenge yourself and ask yourself, like, who's benefiting from my stubbornness or selfishness? You know, I don't think it's as much selfishness or stubbornness because. Yeah, that's why I actually. I don't think it's selfishness at all because again, I think it's hurt. It hurts you. You don't get any. Like, not calling your mom doesn't make you feel good. It doesn't make your life better. It makes you angry. It probably consumes your emotions and energy. You're probably thinking about that. You probably spend more time thinking about not calling your mom than, you know, just calling your mom and accepting your mom as a sick person and then, like, being your. Being a mom to your kids. You know what I'm saying? Like, it takes energy for you to not call your mom.

[Michelle]

Yeah, it just takes energy when I even, like, talk about her at times, you know?

[Jenna]

Sure.

[Michelle]

Just like.

[Nick]

Yeah, it.

[Michelle]

And it's like that energy could be. And I recognize that and I get. You know, it's upsetting sometimes because I'm like, that energy could have been spent on me, my relationship with my husband, my daughter.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

You know, and it just could have been way better spent. But I will say I will be seeing my mom this weekend. So what's the occasion? My little sister is graduating college, so.

[Nick]

And right. Right now. What. What is your mindset going into this weekend?

[Michelle]

Hey, mom, what's up?

[Nick]

No, I don't mean that. I don't. I don't mean, like, what are you gonna do? I mean, like, what is your mindset? Like, your energy towards your mom? Like, what are you.

[Michelle]

I. To be honest, every time, like, we see her probably two to three times a year, you know, along with my dad and rest of the family. And it's always just like, I'm, like, pretty neutral. Like, I. I go in with the expectation that something, you know, she's probably gonna. She's gonna act the way she acts, and that's fine, but I'm just gonna keep my cool, like, and use the tactics I've learned to navigate the situation, to not react. You know, that's the main thing. Because, you know, I used to try to give her lessons or go back at her.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

And I just don't do that anymore. I just kind of, like, nod and okay. You know, and it's not fun, but is a better, calmer situation for myself and everyone else there.

[Nick]

Yeah. So when was the last time you, like, like, said goodbye to your mom, gave her A big hug and said.

[Michelle]

I love you and meant it?

[Nick]

No, I just in general. You didn't mean it. I love you again. There's a difference between, like, and love.

[Michelle]

Yeah. I mean, I always love her, but, like, it's like, am I really happy with her right now?

[Nick]

That's not what. Yeah, yeah. That's not what I'm asking. I'm not asking if you're happy with her, you know? Yeah, I'm not asking. It's not. I'm not saying, hey, I love who you are. You don't love who you are.

[Michelle]

But I saw her for Thanksgiving last year, and that's, you know, said, bye. I gave everyone a big hug. She was, of course, part of saying goodbye to everyone. You know, we have a relationship. It's just not the ideal relationship. Right.

[Nick]

That's the ideal part that you struggle the most with.

[Michelle]

Yeah, for sure. Because I, I. It's hard because I see my siblings, you know, and it's very hard not to compare. You know, we're humans, as much as we want to be, like, but we do. We fucking compare. You know, you see your friends, and they have great relationships, you know, with their parents or my own siblings have, like. It's. It's so different, the dynamics, not just because of our age differences, but because of how we were raised, too, you know, under the circumstances that we were raised, so very different.

[Nick]

What was better or worse?

[Michelle]

You know, I. I have no regrets because I learned a lot. So, you know. But there's always you kind of look, and you're like, man. Even though I had a mom that was pretty frantic and stuff, like, she wasn't drinking. She wasn't, you know, you didn't have to, like, take care of her, you know, you didn't have to do these. These things, you know, and witness that. So you don't have. I mean, they might have unknowing trauma, you know, to certain degrees. We all have childhood trauma, whether we want to admit it or not. But it's different trauma, you know, that they experience than me. So on one hand, I'm. I'm, like, happy for them, you know, I really am because I'm like. I talked to my sister. She's 21. You know, we're what, 12, 13 years apart, and it's, you know, we're very close now that she's gotten older, and she's. She's cognizant. She's very aware and. But she's, you know, she's like. I never witnessed that she. But she has Come to me and said, mom calls me drunk a lot now. You know, things like that. And I'm kind of like, you know, I'm here if you ever want to talk. But, you know, I'm not. I'm not going to, like, go down the path with you. That's just. I don't want to relive that, if you will.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

With my siblings or put that into, you know, my siblings.

[Nick]

Challenge yourself not to compare. I mean, I know recently, again, I've had some really cool moments in my career recently. Pretty big milestones of success recently, which has obviously caused me to reflect on the past 10 years of my career, which has been kind of different. When I moved to LA and tried to take advantage of this opportunity that going on reality TV gave me, and in the earlier years of being done with filming TV of the Bachelor franchise and kind of going out on my own, so to speak, the franchise was essentially done with me. The reason I was the Bachelor is because there was one or two producers in positions of power that really liked me, but I was never like the networks or the real people. I wasn't their guy. I was the odd man out. You know, Ben was like, Ben was their guy. You know, he played a role, you know, like, not. But he's just like, you know, they had a certain type of bachelor bachelorette that they. They liked. Right. I was not it. And so they kind of. They kind of begrudgingly gave me opportunities, you know, especially from the, you know, they were happy to use me to get for other things, like drama on whatever, you know, villains or whatever. But as far as, like, their. The Bachelor or the hero that it was, you know, met with resistance from most people. And so that when I was done, I, you know, I. I really got the call, so to speak, you know, the opportunities that came with it, you know, the, you know, hey, we want you to do this, you know, you know, you know, show up here, show up there, you know, job offers, opportunities. Like, my phone never rang for them. You know, really, it was a bunch of other people, and I. I had certain feelings about that, for sure, you know, hard. How do you not, you know, to feel like, man, I gave you guys a lot. I mean, I gave you, like, a lot of my life and, like, personal feelings and just like, I, you know, and you guys benefited greatly from it. And now, you know, not that I didn't, you know, I certainly was very grateful, but, like, it was hard not to feel a certain way about it. I can tell you, sitting where I am. Now, if I got those opportunities, I wouldn't be sitting here today, you know, because, you know, I was forced to. To go out on my own and make it on my own. I was forced to not have people say, well, here's a job opportunity. Here's a job opportunity. Well, also, those job opportunities kept other people just comfortable enough not to take certain risks. And I'm so grateful that I didn't get those calls now. I'm so grateful, because the truth is, I would have said yes to them. I would have. I would have. I wanted. I wanted to be wanted, and then I wasn't. And if I was wanted, I would have comfortably taken those opportunities, which were great opportunities. But I wouldn't have gone on my own, and I wouldn't have figured it out. I wouldn't have done what I've done and now be in a position that, you know, where I'm at, which is leaps and bounds past where most of them are in terms of certain things. And it's just like. It takes a few years to figure it out. But, like, for me, it's just like. Like, Jesus Christ. It's almost, like, scary to think that the only reason I'm sitting here was something outside of my control. Because I'm, you know, you hear me? I'm so big on controlling what you control, and, you know, it's like, you know, be the driver of your life. But the reality is, is, like, sometimes, like, you know, we. We get dealt certain things and then in the moment feel unfair or bullshit, and it's as easy to resent certain things. But sometimes those of those obstacles force us and challenge us to do things we don't want to do, but it, you know, makes us more resilient, and it makes us do things that other people might not be forced to do, and it might. It puts us in positions to reap certain benefits that we wouldn't otherwise get if we weren't forced to be resilient and, you know, and go on our own. Does that make any of this make sense? Yeah, I just. I mean, 100% try to, you know, and it's like, in the moment, I get it. But, like, just, you know, when you're feeling those feelings of resentment and you're feeling those feelings of frustration and anger, they're natural and they're normal, but try not to have those feelings stop you from pushing forward and moving on and still focus on having positive relationships, you know, with people. You know, that's. That's just my big takeaway. It's Just like everything you're going through is valid and you seem like you're making some really healthy choices for the most part. But there are, you know, there are things that sounds like from time to time you do that again, don't serve you, they only hurt you. And you're doing it kind of out of anger and spite. And it's just try to challenge yourself, to ask yourself, you know, you said you call yourself selfish. It's not selfishness, it's, it's stubbornness. It's the opposite, you know, because it's not helping you, it's hurting you, you know?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And just do things that help you either whether it's the short run or the long run. And the long run is always more important than the short run because the short one just comes and goes in the blink of an eye. But things that like, allow you to have, you know, be a better mother to your kids in the long run and be a healthier mom. And like you said, you said it yourself, your, your three year old already is very self aware, understands the energy that mom and dad bring every day. And you holding on to that negative energy to your mom is something your daughter's going to pick up on, you know?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And let that be your motivation so that she doesn't just feel that energy, you know, and again, use it as a teachable moment so that like when your daughter gets older, she can have that empathy and grace for grandma and to see grandma as a sick person because she has no expectations of grandma because she doesn't know what a grandma's supposed to be. And many people don't get an opportunity to even have grandparents because they, they're dead and they don't live long enough. And it's just try not to let your anger. That's very valid and justifiable. Just. Yeah. Make a bad situation worse.

[Michelle]

I appreciate it. Yeah, you're right. My, my therapist even kind of worked on a tactic with me. When those things come up, you feel them, but they're not warranted, they're not good for you right now. So like, let's put them in the safe, put the code, lock it away and we'll unpack it in therapy and then we'll lock it again.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

Come back and visit it.

[Nick]

And it's so annoying. It's really, I'm like, it's really annoying being like the bigger person or the person who always has to make hell, he doesn' decisions. Sometimes we just want to be toxic and get it out, you know, Sometimes we want that short term gratification that just like. And you're allowed that. But from time just try to see the big picture. It's. It's just better for everyone and most importantly for yourself.

[Michelle]

Yeah. Well, I appreciate it, Nick. Thank you.

[Nick]

All right, well, hopefully this was helpful.

[Michelle]

Yes. Yes, thank you. It was validating too.

[Nick]

All right, well, take care and give mom a big hug next time and try to mean it.

[Michelle]

I will.

[Nick]

All right.

[Michelle]

I. I will. I'll see you this weekend.

[Nick]

All right. Take care.

[Michelle]

All right. Thank you.

[Nick]

All right. Bye.

[Zoe]

Bye bye.

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[Becky]

Hi, I'm Becky. I'm 29, and I'm wondering if there is still potential to be more or am I officially on the roster?

[Nick]

Tell me about the situation you're in.

[Becky]

So we met on Tinder. He's 37. He's tall, but not douchebag tall. Really nice. Not. Hasn't love bombed me. Good job, Good vibes. I know he's obviously still dating other people, but. Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay, how long has this been going on for?

[Becky]

Our first date was the end of March, so we punk out three times since then.

[Nick]

Okay. And when you say things like, he hasn't love bombed me and obviously he's dating other people, that this sounds like you just have the lowest of expectations for the people you date.

[Becky]

Date, probably.

[Nick]

Okay, well, we agree on that. But, I mean, you know, it's three dates since March Is. Is. Is. Is. Is slow progress. Yeah, it's giving roster.

[Becky]

Okay.

[Nick]

Have you hooked up?

[Becky]

Yeah. So on the first date, I. It was way too long, and I think I immediately messed up there. Second date.

[Nick]

What do you mean it was too long?

[Becky]

It was like seven and a half hours, and it should never be that long.

[Nick]

Did you hook up on the first date?

[Becky]

No, we just. We went to dinner, then we went to a bar, and then we came back. Not to my apartment, but we hung out on the rooftop and had drinks. And then he texted me when he got home, and then he went on a golf trip. So that kind of, like, pushed our day. Our next, like, time hanging out off a little bit. And then the second time we hung out, we went to, like, a sports thing and then just got. We got way too drunk and then came back. We were gonna just go hang out on the rooftop again, but I guess I forgot. I guess I didn't realize, like, how drunk he got. So I was like, you can just say you can just stay the night. And that was, like, my first mistake, I guess, or my. Another mistake. But then he stayed, obviously, stay the night. We've been. We were in bed, we were making out, we didn't have sex. But the next day, we. We, like, briefly talked, and then didn't hear from him for a couple of days, which was normal. That wasn't. Not, like, the communication has been very much, like, consistent. But this last time we hung out, we did have sex, so I just kind of was hoping that it would have been more, like, it would have been there would. Like, he would have shown more.

[Nick]

Why. Why did you choose to have sex with him on this third date versus, say, the second date?

[Becky]

I have really bad anxiety, so I just didn't want to do it to myself. Like, I knew if I would have, like, hooked up with him on the second day. And, like, my.

[Nick]

My question isn't. Is less about why didn't you have sex in the second day, but it's more about why did. What was different about the third date where you didn't. That, like, you know, hey, I had anxiety, so I didn't want to do in the second day. But why was the anxiety not there on the third date? Like, what changed?

[Becky]

Well, it definitely was, but I just, like, we. I don't know. I just liked him. I just. I just realized, like, I liked him more than I did, like, on the second date. I just. I don't know. It's just, like, a weird. It's a weird vibe now because I would have thought, like, I would have thought after we. I mean, I guess it's been there, done that, but I just feel like I'm being breadcrumbed, and I just wish, like, he would not breadcrumb me.

[Nick]

What do you mean by breadcrumbed?

[Becky]

So we. Last time we hung out was on Friday. I stayed the night with him. Didn't hear from him on Saturday. I texted him on Sunday, just like, I was at like. And that's just kind of how we text, like, sporadically. And then I heard from him on a couple days later. He was asking how my week was. I told him how my week was. Yada, yada, yada. We got into. And then I regretted this immediately when I said it. I said, what does the rest of your week look like? And then it was, like, automatically, like, me pursuing him. Just. I felt like I was doing too much. And then he told me what his week looked like. And then I. He asked me what mine looked like, and I never responded to him. Texted him back the next day. Sorry, fell asleep. Hope you had a good day. Good night. And. But he still could have asked me to hang out. Like, he didn't know what my week was. My week looked like.

[Nick]

This is all after you had sex?

[Becky]

Yes.

[Nick]

Okay. My guess is he probably doesn't even know how he feels about you. Yeah, I'm sure you've heard me say this before, but, like, you having sex with them on the third date is you participating in hookup culture. It's not you pursuing a relationship.

[Becky]

Okay.

[Nick]

You know, and if you want to have sex with a guy, a guy because you're like, I'd like to get laid tonight, and he. And he's attractive, and I'd like to have sex with him, have a ball, you know?

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Be the empowered woman in 2025 that has the right to have sex as much as any boy out there. But the reality is, is sex to everyone has consequences. Right. And the consequences of having sex with men early in the dating stage is that it just, like, it changes their interests.

[Becky]

Am I able to run it back, like. Or is it too far gone?

[Nick]

I think in most cases, this is not specific to you, but in most cases, and there's exceptions to rules, if you have sex with a man in the early stages of dating, he's almost certainly gonna reach out to you the next time. Not because he's interested in learning more about you emotionally and building an emotional connection, but it's because he wants to have sex with you again. Because you had sex with a person you had no actual connection with. You had a good time, you know, learned a little bit about each other and had some nice dates. But, like, you know, you know, you didn't have an emotional connection. You didn't know each other on a deeper level. You didn't build any type of bond. You're not bringing any other value to his life, you know, other than maybe, like, a good time. Yeah, but, like, emotional support. You're not. You're not the person he's going to reach out to if he's having a bad day right now, you know, or if he needs some, like, advice, you know, that's not going to be you. You haven't built that rapport with him, so you just pigeonhole yourself. And that's just like, men, I don't know. You know, this is kind of how men's brains work. So if you find yourself having sex with men early in the dating process and seeing their behavior change shortly thereafter, that's generally why. And I would say most of the time, it's not men, you know, going out with you and being like, I'm just gonna say whatever I have to say in order to have sex with her. And there's plenty of shitty guys who do that. Right. You know, But I'd Say most guys just, you want to have sex with me? Great. Sure. I'm not gonna say no. And then they do. And it's just like, that curiosity of, you know, like, every. All men have that kind of animalistic instinct of. Of being attracted to a woman and wondering what she looks like naked, taken. And that's a very powerful tool you all have if you want to play that card. And by playing that card means to literally not, you know, to keep them guessing, so to speak.

[Becky]

So a couple weeks ago, he did kind of ghost me for, like, it was almost four days. And I didn't say anything about it, like, when I did hear from him, but when I did, whenever I went over to his house afterwards, I just kind of, like, brought it up. I was like, I like you. I. I don't know. It. It made sense. And I probably shouldn't have brought it up anyway, but to me, it made sense. I was like, you. Yeah, you kind of disappeared for, what was it, four days. I was like, I. I was like, I understand. Things, like, happen. Just send a text next time. And then, like, he did. Like, he didn't want to get into it, so he tried to kiss me.

[Nick]

And so I was like, I. I'm confused about what you just said. Like, what are you trying to resolve here that you say you could, like.

[Becky]

Well, I brought it up to him. The ghost sting.

[Nick]

Okay. Yeah.

[Becky]

He, like, goes to me for a few days, and then when I did hear from him, like, over text, I didn't bring it up until I was in person with him.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Becky]

And so I was like, yeah. I was like, you could like, just maybe, like, a text or, like, a. Something. I was like, I. If you're not interested in me, you're not interested in me, but I just would have rather, like, heard from you. And he just, like, leaned in to kiss me, and I, like, put my hand up, and I was like, sorry. Like, are you. He was like, you could say sorry. And he was like, no, I am like. I'm like, I bet you are now that you want to make out. And he's kind of, like, laughed it off and then leaned back. And then he was like, yeah, I shouldn't have done that. That was really rude of me.

[Nick]

And so just be clear. Like, when you say ghost, he just didn't call you for a couple days?

[Becky]

Yeah, he didn't text me or. Yeah, he didn't text me for. It was like. Or it was like, four days. Like, I'm cool with not. I'm not. I'm cool with not the every day, like, all day. That puts too much.

[Nick]

I put, I guess, what expectations you guys have that he was supposed to reach out to you on any site or consistent basis.

[Becky]

I just thought it would have been the polite thing to do. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Nick]

I mean, I mean, it's just. It's. It's a matter of opinion. And you're, you know, I just think you're you or anyone else listening, you're better off. Just like, it's like, if you want, you know, part when you say polite, you know, like, you want him to be an adult. And like, part of accepting, expecting other people, of being adults is you being an adult, too. If you want to get naked and have sex with a guy again, go nuts. Like, absolutely. No, no, like, but, like, you know, maybe have a. Have a conversation with a guy before about, like, his expectations. But, like, you, you and I say you, everyone. Now people in dating culture are doing this weird thing where it's just like, I don't. I don't want to sound crazy. I don't want to, like, but, like, let's get naked and have sex. But I don't want to. I mean, I don't want to, like, expect anything from him. I mean, we're not dating. He's not my boyfriend. You know what I'm saying? But, like, again, like, have a ball with sex. But, like, this is either a person you're interested in getting to know and pursue on a deeper level other than just a casual hookup, or it's a casual hookup. Yeah, it's hard to be both. And if you get lucky that you guys are just, like, so hot for each other that you love both having sex with each other so much that you just kind of keep hanging out. And over that time of, like, hooking up, you build a rapport and emotional connection. You luck out. Which is kind of like the story of me and Natalie, which is kind of like, we were just kind of obsessed with each other physically that we just kept hanging out. And then like six months later, like, I think I love this girl, but that was because we built that connection through, like, you know, being drawn to each other. Most of the time, it's like more of a. Yeah, I mean, you know, that was nice. And, you know, I don't know, like, that's. That's the. That's the. That's very much the exception to the rule and the reality. I mean, like, our. Everything about a relationship is the exception of the rule. But, you know, I Did not go about it in a way that was. That. That set my. Set that relationship up for success, you know, my actions with my. How, you know, I didn't know it at the time. You know, I wasn't even pursuing. I mean, I went into that interaction with being like, yeah, we're not going to date, you know, but you. If you are going in interaction where you're thinking, no, this is someone I could be interested in, then you probably need to make different decisions about how you go about pursuing these messages.

[Becky]

Yeah, I mean, I regretted it as soon. Like, not. I mean, I guess I had like an emotional hangover afterwards because I was like, oh, my God, like, I don't even know what this guy wants. He doesn't know what I want. I. I'm like that. I. I don't know.

[Michelle]

And then I got.

[Becky]

That's why, like, I just kind of avoided him. Like, texting him this past week is because I'm like, okay, you kind of ghosted me. Like, you, you kind of ghosted me. Then we had sex. You don't know what I want. I don't know what you want. And I just, I know how that goes. Like, I mean, I don't know. It just. Because I was really trying to be more intentional. I truly was. Like, I know we, like hooked up the third day. I was just trying to be more intentional. I mean, I thought I was. And maybe that's why. I don't know, it's really discouraging because I. I truly felt like I was doing something different.

[Nick]

And then I was like, what was different?

[Becky]

Because normally I have a very full throttle personality.

[Nick]

What do you mean by that?

[Becky]

I'm like, I'm the biggest person in the room. I. I just. I mean, you hear me? You know, I'm there. You like, my, like, you got a big personality. Yeah. And the vibe I got from him was. It just felt good with my vibe.

[Nick]

Okay, great.

[Becky]

And he was older. He's 30. He's 37. He's older. He has it like, I mean, he just seemed more in line with what I wanted. So I felt like, okay, great. Like, like I was being more intentional. I truly felt like I was being more intentional. I just. He was more.

[Nick]

How it. How did you manifest that in your into action?

[Becky]

I did not lay it on as thick as I normally would have because normally I'm being matched. I normally, I get the love bomb and then I just match that energy. So I'm like, okay, if that's what they're giving me, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna meet them where they're at, or it's been like, oh, I can be a slow burn, but the moment they, like, have an attitude.

[Nick]

So, like. Hold on. Let's just pause for a second. So you're saying in the past that if you'd meet a guy, there'd be some interest and he would be like, I'm in love with you. And you. And. And so. Because he was saying that you would match that energy regardless of if you felt that way.

[Becky]

Yeah, I.

[Nick]

And I.

[Becky]

And I know that's wrong. Like, I know I should.

[Nick]

Like, it is what it is. I mean, listen, we're. We all dating. Like, I use this analogy before, but, like, love is a powerful, crazy fucking thing that's unpredictable, and we all want it, but it's. It's, it's, it's. It's. Again, it's. It's combustible. It's unstable. It takes a lot of tender loving care. We turn 18 in adults, and then we get this, like, all right, go. Kind of like find love, so to speak. In fact, sometimes we start before we're even adults. Right?

[Jenna]

It's.

[Nick]

It's a very powerful thing. And if we use that analogy, like a sports car, like, do you. Do you think you'd get comfortable getting into a Ferrari without any real lessons and feel comfortable getting behind that wheel and not driving and probably not. Right? So give yourself grace, but be willing to learn from your mistakes. Right? And so I'm not pointing this out to be like, well, that was stupid, or make you feel bad about your choices, but I do want you to recognize that men can do whatever they want. They can love bomb, they can be immature. But as you become more of an adult woman and you mature in life, you need to recognize that. That if a man wants to fall in love with you at the second date that you know he's not, then you don't let your ego that. And then you don't match his level, and you just go, whoa, you don't even know me. You know, let's slow down, buddy. And you put him in his place. And every man's going to find that attract. Men are going to do one of two things. Either find that attractive, or they will reveal themselves as someone who's, like, just trying to get laid.

[Becky]

I mean, you're right, obviously.

[Nick]

It's just. You have to take accountability for your dating life. You have to be willing to learn from your mistakes. Men are going to men, you know, so to speak. But by learning through your mistakes, you can get better at handling yourself and being more in control of these situations. Because the way you talk about your dating situations, you're always just, like, waiting for the man to lead, so to speak. And I get, like, in traditional. Like, a lot of women want that, so to speak, but I think want that in a relationship, for the relationship, you know, if you want to have a more traditional relationship and kind of like, you know, trad wife, whatever, and you want a man to be more of the leader, that's great. Like, I love that for you. You know, like, in a lot of ways, Natalie likes that I take the lead in things. Right. But you're not in a relationship with these men, and right now you are in charge of your life and your interpersonal relationships, and they're not your boyfriends, and they're not there to lead you right now. Now. So you need to take charge of your dating relationship, and you need to make choices for yourself and then check in with yourself as you get to know these men. And they can be like, is this the type of man who leads or follows? You know, and you can find him to be attractive or unattractive. Right. But, like, you need to decide whether you like these men or not. You know, right now you're just. You're meeting men, from what I'm hearing, and immediately just seeing how it goes, you know, if you. You're. You have. All you check in is for vibes. All right. Is there chemistry? Great. All right. I feel chemistry. All right, let's see what he does with this chemistry that we're feeling. And then immediately you put yourself in this position of not having power because you're just kind of, like, waiting for him to make the move. Right? So to speak, a little bit. And then you have a kind of all this anxiety. Anxiety comes from the unknown. And part of the reason why you're always anxious is you're never stepping into your. In a position of power you're not taking charge of. Who gives a shit what he thinks and feels about what he wants to do with you? You're just like, I don't know. We've had two good first dates. Great. I like what I have so far. I don't just want to fuck this guy. I want to see where it goes. So, like, I still don't know him. I'm going to keep getting to know him. If he wants to kiss me, great. If he wants to try to get a little action, I love that because it makes me feel pursued. But I'm Going to say, no, I'm not doing that right now. I want to build a connection, and I'm not going to set some sort of arbitrary false deadline like, I don't have sex until the fifth date because you're just giving him a goal. Or I don't have sex until four weeks of dating. You wait till you feel like you're actually building some kind of rapport, you know, where you're not wondering if he's calling, or you give him an opportunity to see if he's going to wait four days to check in with you or just be a part of your roster. You get to know him, and you don't feel like you have to do anything to, like, entice him, so to speak, other than just, like, play your part in trying to build a connection with the guy.

[Becky]

Yeah, no, and I see what you're saying, and I. That's. That's why I was just trying to match his energy. And I feel like.

[Nick]

What do you mean? What do you mean?

[Becky]

Just like. Because normally people lay it on super thick. And normally, like, historically, I've had people just laid on super thick, and I could be a slow burn if I wanted to. And then they get mad at me because they're like, oh, you're. You might not be into me. And then I'm like, oh, God, I'm going to lose them. So I just have to go in super strong.

[Nick]

Okay. But that's just like an emotionally immature guy. That's not your guy. A guy who gets mad. You know, as long as you set expectations and you follow through those expectations. And that could be something as simple as, like, I had a really nice time tonight. I'd like to see you again, you know, and then either you or him follow up and plan another hang.

[Becky]

Yeah, I just. So did I. I mean, did I completely torpedo it? Like, is it Completely.

[Nick]

I don't know. I mean, I. I think what I'm hearing is, I think you need to take a step back and look at how you're dating, period. Because right now your mindset is just about trying to save this relationship with this guy. You don't even have a relationship with this guy. And he's definitely giving roster for sure. I don't know why you're still so worried about a guy who had sex with you and felt like he didn't really needed to call you after four or five days. Again, I don't think he committed a crime, and I don't call that ghosting, but it doesn't give. I'M super excited about this girl, and I really want to pursue. Pursue her.

[Becky]

No, you're right. Like, he texted me yesterday and was. He said, hey, how was your weekend? I said. And I just was kind of short, and I.

[Michelle]

It felt.

[Becky]

I felt like I was being immature, but I was just so annoyed with him in the moment. I said. I said, busy weekend, but it was all right. How was yours? And he said something. He told me what he did, and I was just like. And they said I'm something about him being busy. And as soon as someone says the word busy to me, that equals not interested. Like, that's. That's the worst B word. Busy equals not interested. And so I was like, yeah. I said, yeah, I'm really. I'm really starting to see that. And then he didn't respond.

[Nick]

So I. I don't see. I don't. I don't see why you would. Should put much more effort into this guy. For sure.

[Becky]

Okay.

[Nick]

But I don't think you necessarily did anything wrong.

[Becky]

I mean, I don't either, and I don't really think he did anything wrong either. I'm just in my head about it because I wanted to. I should have asked my question or at least, like, figured it out, like, what he was looking for. And, like, I. Or at least let him know what I wanted, like, before we hooked up, I think. Yeah. Because I immediately had, like, an emotional hangover.

[Nick]

But I just want to be clear that, like, men don't really know what they want with someone they barely know.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Men don't know what they're gonna want for. From a person after they have sex with someone they barely know.

[Zoe]

Know.

[Nick]

That makes sense.

[Becky]

Yeah. I should have made sure he knew, like, where I was at, though.

[Nick]

So, like, what. What do you wish you would have said to him?

[Becky]

Just, I'm not looking to add someone else to the roster. If I. I'm dating with, like, intention. I'm not saying that means us, like, we have every intention of being serious, getting married, whatever, and. But at least know, like, I'm not just here to, like, fill a spot or pass the time or be entertained. Like, Like, I could have that with whoever else. Like, I could have that with somebody else I already have that with. I just. He was not going to be one of those people.

[Nick]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Some version of that. That would have been great.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But again, I just want to make sure that when you say that, just because they say, oh, my God, I want the same thing as you doesn't mean you have sex with Them that night.

[Becky]

Yeah. And we didn't even get that far. I just went ahead and did it. So I. Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

But I'm just saying in the future, if you do communicate that expectation, getting a, a response that like I, that they agree doesn't mean you should have sex. If, if, if you mean what you say.

[Becky]

Yeah, because they could meet, they could say that, and then they don't. They don't know me well enough to know if that's with me.

[Nick]

So they also don't know how they're gonna feel about you after they have sex. Yeah, they do not bond. Like women in general, not, you know, always exceptions. You have a rule. But in general, like bot. Like, like women have a bonding connection with people they have sex with through sex, and men have almost a literal opposite. And so if a bond isn't already in place, sex won't be the bond for women. It can be. And it puts you in a vulnerable position because you will have going on. The Bachelor is a manufactured environment that creates emotions that might not otherwise be there. And kind of, that's how sex can be for women when it comes to, like, their body chemistry. It is not how it is for men for the most part.

[Becky]

Was my first mistake him just being a 37 year old man on Tinder? Like, should I just. Should I have known better? Honestly?

[Nick]

No. I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't judge a book by its cover. I mean, it just requires you to have more upfront conversations and setting expectations. It requires for you to set boundaries with yourself and enforce those boundaries regardless of how much fun you're having on a date or how hot you think they are or, you know, or what. Regardless of what they say, you know, if this is a person you're pursuing and getting to know for something more than just a hookup, I wouldn't hook up.

[Becky]

Yeah. Simple math. I should, I really should have known better. I really. I don't know.

[Michelle]

Maybe I just. Maybe I just.

[Becky]

I was like, okay, this is the third date I feel like we have. I was rationalizing it totally.

[Nick]

Yeah, you get. You made a. You made a bet. That's what, you know, you. You made a bet bet. And most bets don't win. You know, I made a bet and won and it was dumb luck, you know, and that wasn't even a bet. I didn't even want it. You know, it wasn't. You know, it's just like. But again, if, if you just want to make. I'm not telling you what to do. And I'M not telling if you will never find love if, if you don't change anything. But you are, you're gonna, you're gonna be banking on more luck than act. You know, there's, there's things we can do to set up, start to set ourselves up for success. And I'm just trying to give you a playbook to set yourself better up for success. And you're gonna live your life and, and, and you should yolo every once in a while and just have some fucking fun and just be in the moment. But if you wanna set yourself up for success, there's ways of doing it and there's ways of not doing it. And right now you're doing a lot of things that are not setting you yourself up for success. Part of that is allowing the bad ones to come and go again. Like a guy getting upset with you because you wanna go at your pace is just not your guy. It is not permission for you to then go at their pace at the risk of you feeling anxious and uncomfortable with that pace, only to give them what they want and then make you feel used afterwards.

[Becky]

Yeah, that's, that's how I felt with the last guy that I dated that I was dating before this guy. And it's been nothing but toxicity since. And I was really trying, I was really trying to avoid that. But, and, but that's what. This guy hasn't like love bomb me. It's been, it has felt like mature, like good, like a good pace, like communication wise. But I, I am, I. That doesn't even matter because I slept with him too early and did. He didn't know what I wanted.

[Nick]

Right.

[Becky]

Okay, so what do I do from this point? Yeah, I'm gonna sit here racking my brain. Like, I don't like, let it go. Don't reach out to him again.

[Nick]

Why? For what purpose? He's too busy.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Follow your own advice. You said the B and I agree with you. That's a great, it's a great line. You know the B word is A. It's not a good sign.

[Becky]

Okay, so even if he texted me last night, I don't text him and I, I don't text him again.

[Nick]

If you want. If he texts each, you can reach out and be like, listen, I just like, you seem too busy and honestly, I'm just. Like you said, I'm not really. I had a good time with you, man. It was great, but like, I'm just not looking to be part of the roster or just have you casually pop in from Time to time. And I'm just not getting the vibe that you're looking for anything more than that.

[Becky]

Okay.

[Nick]

And you seem kind of busy.

[Becky]

Okay.

[Nick]

So, yeah, if. I'm not saying you don't need to ghost him, you can. If he wants to reach out to you, let him reach out to you and then just be honest with him and take charge of your dating life. Stop worrying about how people are going to respond to you taking control of your life.

[Becky]

Yeah, I just, like, I try to avoid the rejection.

[Nick]

I just want you. I want you to hear about what I just said and I want you to process what I just said and not think about responding. I want you to not worry about how people are going to respond to you taking charge of your life, your dating life specifically.

[Becky]

That's really good advice.

[Nick]

But I want you now think about it and I want you to think about ways in which you have worried about how they're going to respond and allow that to cause you to not take charge of your dating life. And I want you to think about your dating life more than you're thinking about him.

[Becky]

Yeah, I never really thought about it like that. This is a lot. It just gives me anxiety when I think about losing my power to them. It just like, I immediately like, like emotionally close off and I. I might like physically still be there with them or I might respond to their text if I feel powerless to them. I just. It's like, it doesn't matter.

[Nick]

It.

[Becky]

I could just be like a complete. I'll turn. It'll turn into a crash out situation and then it'll turn into. It'll just spiral into something like an emotion, literally emotional warfare. And I mean, I do it to myself because you're right, I haven't set good boundaries at like. And I just need to be more.

[Nick]

You need to be more what?

[Becky]

I just need to be more thoughtful and thoughtful for my. At least for myself. Like, I need to stop worrying about, like, I need to just be aware. Like, okay, the guy is the driving force, but, like, this is my show too.

[Nick]

Like, yeah, it.

[Becky]

I just have to be. I'd have to do a better job of protecting my feelings.

[Nick]

And like, yeah, yeah, you need to take charge of your dating life. Your dating life and the relay and how you want to be in a relationship are two different things. You're meeting men and you're trying to simulate a relationship immediately. Yeah, that is not how you do it. You got to get to know them first. You know, you gotta try them out. You gotta take it slow. You gotta say no to them and see how they respond. You need to look for signs of how they might be in a relationship, but that doesn't mean you simulate a relationship and play house.

[Becky]

Yeah, I'm really bad at that.

[Nick]

We all are. But you just have to get good at, you know, again, learn from your mistakes.

[Becky]

Okay. I feel like I have done a better job this time, but at the same time, I, I just hone in on this one person and I have to be better about not doing that because then I don't even remember that. Like my, I don't remember to. I don't remember myself and my emotions. I don't know if that, that probably doesn't make much sense, but I mean.

[Nick]

Yeah, it makes sense in the sense that like, again, like, your, your, your bad habit is to again allow men to lead the entire dating portion. And so, you know, sounds like, you know, you find that attractive in a man. That's great. But like, early on, he shouldn't be dictating all the terms. And as soon as you allow a man to dictate all the terms and you're just constantly in a, in a holding pattern, you're just waiting for them to text you, or waiting to see what they're going to say, or waiting to see if they want to hang out with you. And that's the part that gives you constant anxiety. And then when you don't get what you want, then you start second guessing all your choices. Or should I done that? Should I have done this? And it's all based off of their validation for you. And, and, and you're emotionally, you're spending all this energy waiting for validation from a man you know nothing about. You don't know anything about them, how they're gonna be around your parents, or how they're gonna handle stress, or like, if they're gonna have a, have a list of 40 bad habits that would just actually give you the ick. But you, you just put these people on a pedestal because you had a couple good dates or there are a certain high or look a certain way and you need to like, just take it slow. And if a guy throws a fit and gets mad as you described, you'd be like, okay, well, you are not looking for what I'm looking for.

[Becky]

So can I tell you about a situation? Okay, so last time we hung out, I, the week before, he was like.

[Nick]

Let me ask you before you tell me the story, I'm happy to hear the story, but I want you to think about what we just Said and try to apply it to the story you are about to tell me and think if you can answer your own question.

[Becky]

So. And I. Well, it just has to do with me. I thought I took charge, like, in this situation. He was. We just were texting, checking in or whatever. He acted like he wanted to ask me to do something. And then it just kind of like trailed off a little bit. I said, so you should ask me out. We were talking about what we were doing for the week. Said something. And I said, well, you should ask me out. And he. And immediately he said, well, he was like, will you go out with me sometime this week? And I was like, sure. Sounds good. So I know I have it in me to do it to. To take, like, take. Take charge on my end and not just let them have the reins, but, like, I don't want. I don't want to have to do that every time. And I guess if I have to do that every time, he's not my guy.

[Nick]

I don't know. There's a difference between giving a guy a little bit of coaching and letting him know what you like and seeing if he responds versus nagging. You know, like, you know, it's 20, 25, and I think men are really struggling with what. How they're, you know, it's like the rules of dating have drastically changed and, you know, there's just a lot of toxicity and online period and, you know. And how old are you again?

[Becky]

29.

[Nick]

29. Okay. Men are. A lot of young men are told, like, don't approach women in public. Don't, don't. Don't be a creep. Just don't be a fucking creep. So, yeah, there might be a little bit of coaching. Letting a guy know what you like is part of taking control of your dating life. Again, you're not trying to simulate a relationship with these guys early on, but, like, see, if this is, you know, you. If you want to go with me, you need to ask me on a date. All right. And then he did. Right. Well, do you have to keep asking him to ask you? Okay, well, then that's a bad sign.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, but if it's a guy's like, all right, you know, you want me to ask you, Great, I'm going to ask you. Yeah. I think you need to be willing to take more charge of your dating life, and I think you need to be okay with that. That. And then you can, by doing so you can learn more about these men if they have the type of qualities that you want in A relationship.

[Becky]

I think I can do that. I just. Yeah, I think I can do that. I had. So my. I was engaged a couple years ago, and he. He. I walked all over him. I mean, I was jumping how high? His personality kind of let me feel like that was okay. And then it ended up being really unattractive, and it got unattractive for me too. I didn't like. I. I did not like being that way. I didn't like the monster I had created.

[Nick]

So you gotta find balance, you know?

[Becky]

That's why I say, like, I'm like, full throttle. I have no balance. I really need to work on that.

[Nick]

Okay. Try to work on it.

[Becky]

Yeah. All right.

[Nick]

And again, learn from your mistakes. Right. You know, but if you are going to be constantly demanding things and. And have a short fuse and. And that's the product you're going to get. I think you can take charge of your life without being overbearing and demanding and unappreciative. You can be a calm, confident woman who knows what she's looking for and is dated enough to understand what are green flags and red flags and what are positive qualities and not positive qualities. And set boundaries for yourself. And hold these men that you date accountable for how they act early in dating situations. And when you are dating someone that you see potential with, then you know that, like, sex is only going to complicate things. And if there's a guy that you're just like, I don't know, he's kind of a loser, but he's hot, and I kind of want to him then have a ball. You know, that it might like, you know, again, how you feel afterwards is going to be different than how he feels afterwards. That's just a risk you're going to have to take. But men don't fall in love with women they have sex with. With. They fall in love with women they respect and. And. And desire and. And. And feel emotionally taken care of and. And want to take care of them and, And. And curiosity. They fall in love with, want to see you naked and things like that. But it's not sex. Sex is something that men enjoy sex. They like doing it. It's. It's not like. It's not like a lovemaking session early on especially.

[Becky]

You're right.

[Nick]

All right.

[Becky]

And I hear you.

[Jenna]

Okay.

[Becky]

I can do that. I can do that.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Becky]

I just. You're right. I feel like you're always right anyway.

[Nick]

You're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. Just for sure. Slow down a little bit. You got a lot going for you. Don't try to simulate a relationship.

[Becky]

All right. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[Nick]

My pleasure. Thank you very much for calling and please keep us posted. We'd love an update to see if you've incorporated any anything that you learned from this call.

[Becky]

I will. Thank you so much. I really needed that. Thank you.

[Nick]

Take care.

[Becky]

Bye.

[Nick]

Bye.

[Jenna]

Hi, Zoe Saldana.

[Nick]

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[Jenna]

You still get to keep it.

[Zoe]

There's always a trade in. Not right now.

[Jenna]

@ T Mobile.

[Nick]

I feel like I have to give.

[Zoe]

You something in return for karma.

[Nick]

That's okay.

[Zoe]

I don't really have much in my purse.

[Nick]

Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer.

[Zoe]

It's lavender.

[Nick]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Michelle]

Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.

[Nick]

Really, I'm fine.

[Zoe]

Oh, I have raisins.

[Michelle]

I'm a mom.

[Zoe]

Wait, wait one sec.

[Nick]

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