E961 Ask Nick - Is My Pastor Dad A Scammer?

Summary

Summary of The Viall Files Episode E961: "Ask Nick - Is My Pastor Dad A Scammer?"

In Episode E961 of "The Viall Files," host Nick Viall addresses profound personal and relationship dilemmas brought in by listeners seeking advice. This episode delves into three significant issues: a financial burden imposed by a deceitful father, relationship strains caused by a male roommate, and the ethical quandary of donating frozen embryos. Below is a comprehensive summary of each segment, highlighting key discussions, insights, and notable quotes.

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1. Emily's Financial Turmoil with Her Pastor Father

Background: Emily, a 33-year-old counselor pursuing her PhD, shares her distressing situation involving her father, a pastor. At 17, her father secured parent PLUS student loans in her name, with an informal agreement that she would repay him over time.

The Issue: Initially, Emily adhered to a payment plan, contributing a portion while her father managed the monthly installments. However, due to deferments during the COVID-19 pandemic and unpaid interest, the debt ballooned to $125,000. Recently, Emily’s father demanded the entire amount upfront to alleviate his debts and pursue new opportunities.

Complications: Two and a half years ago, Emily's father was exposed for having an affair, leading to a messy divorce. The divorce agreement placed sole responsibility for the student loans on her father, absolving her mother. Amidst this turmoil, Emily discovered that her father is not her biological parent—a secret kept for 30 years, unveiled during the divorce proceedings.

Emotional and Financial Strain: Emily expresses feelings of betrayal and frustration, not only due to the inflated financial demand but also because her father prioritized this over supporting his children during a family crisis. She is currently in debt herself, working to pay off her PhD, and is engaged to be married. Her future husband disapproves of her paying off her father's debt, adding another layer of complexity.

Advice and Discussion: Nick Viall provides Emily with a multifaceted perspective:

• Legal Perspective: Nick explains that Emily may not be legally obligated to repay the inflated debt, as the original agreement was informal and not legally binding.

• Emotional Considerations: He acknowledges the emotional betrayal Emily feels and emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries to protect her financial and emotional well-being.

• Practical Steps: Nick suggests negotiating a structured repayment plan rather than complying with the lump sum demand. He advises Emily to present evidence of her past payments and clarify her current financial constraints.

Notable Quotes:

• Emily expressing her predicament:
  "He basically asked me to take all of the money that I have and give it to him so that he can get out of debt while I'm still in debt." [04:49]

• Nick's firm stance on the financial demand:
  "I think it's absolute bullshit that your dad is expecting or even asking you to just, like, write him a check for $125,000." [10:17]

• Emily's resolution:
  "I'm going to need some time to decide, but it would be on my terms." [27:36]

Conclusion: Emily opts not to comply with her father's immediate demand, choosing instead to negotiate a manageable payment plan. Nick commends her approach, highlighting the importance of preserving her financial independence and emotional health while navigating a strained familial relationship.

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2. Anya's Relationship Strain Over a Male Roommate

Background: Anya, a 30-year-old listener, seeks advice regarding her romantic relationship. She has been with her boyfriend for less than a year, but recent tensions have arisen due to her living arrangement with a male roommate.

The Issue: Anya lives with a straight male roommate who became her platonic friend after living together post the roommate’s breakup. Her boyfriend feels threatened, suspecting that Anya might be interested in her roommate despite the platonic nature of their relationship. This suspicion has led to multiple arguments and rifts in their relationship.

Emotional Struggle: Anya values her friendship with her roommate, who provides emotional support and companionship, especially given her social lifestyle and work environment. However, her boyfriend's insecurities and jealous behavior are straining their relationship.

Advice and Discussion: Nick engages Anya in a comprehensive discussion to navigate the complexities of her situation:

• Perspective-Taking: He encourages Anya to empathize with her boyfriend's feelings of insecurity, even if she logically sees nothing improper in her living arrangement.

• Relationship Prioritization: Nick suggests that if Anya is serious about her relationship, she might need to consider adjusting her living situation to alleviate her boyfriend’s insecurities, despite the convenience and social benefits her current arrangement offers.

• Communication Strategy: He emphasizes the importance of open and honest communication, advising Anya to acknowledge her boyfriend's feelings while expressing her own needs and perspectives.

Notable Quotes:

• Anya expressing her frustration:
  "He's like, it's your dad's responsibility. And the way that he's treated me, obviously he doesn't have the relationship aspect of it." [31:21]

• Nick's insight on relationship dynamics:
  "Relationships take work and they take sacrifice and compromise." [63:17]

• Advice on mutual appreciation:
  "Carve out time to show that gratitude to each other and just say, you know, if I haven't said it enough, I do want you to know I'm really proud of you." [80:30]

Conclusion: Anya is advised to acknowledge her boyfriend's feelings and consider making changes to her living arrangements to strengthen their relationship. Nick emphasizes the necessity of mutual understanding, sacrifice, and effective communication to navigate and resolve such tensions.

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3. Jeff's Ethical Dilemma Over Donating Frozen Embryos

Background: Jeff (referred to as Emily in the transcript), a 38-year-old listener, grapples with the decision of whether to donate her frozen embryos or continue keeping them stored. She and her husband underwent multiple rounds of IVF, resulting in two remaining embryos.

The Issue: Emily and her husband have decided not to pursue having more children due to various reasons, including age, health complications, and marital stress. The couple is contemplating donating the remaining embryos but faces emotional and ethical challenges associated with this decision.

Emotional and Ethical Considerations: Emily views the embryos as miracles, given the difficulty of their IVF journey and the high quality of the remaining embryos. She feels a deep connection to them and struggles with the idea of donating them, fearing potential regrets and the loss of a chance for these embryos to have a life.

Advice and Discussion: Nick approaches Emily’s situation with empathy and caution:

• Emotional Attachment: He recognizes the profound emotional bond Emily has with the embryos and the ethical weight of her decision.

• Marital Strain: Nick highlights that Emily and her husband are currently facing significant marital stress, which complicates the decision-making process regarding the embryos.

• Decision Timing: He advises that making such a significant decision amidst marital turmoil could lead to future regrets and exacerbate existing tensions. Instead, he recommends prioritizing the resolution of marital issues and addressing the well-being of the relationship first.

Notable Quotes:

• Emily on her connection to the embryos:
  "They feel like miracles." [72:54]

• Nick on the timing of the decision:
  "If we're worried about potential stresses we could put on your marriage, I feel like right now is not the time to do that." [73:02]

• Advice on prioritizing the marriage:
  "Channel this energy... into your marriage and, you guys figuring that out." [73:02]

Conclusion: Emily is encouraged to focus on resolving her marital issues before making a decision about donating the embryos. Nick stresses the importance of emotional stability and marital harmony in navigating such life-altering choices, suggesting that premature decisions could lead to unnecessary regrets and relational strain.

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Key Takeaways from the Episode

1. Financial Boundaries and Legal Awareness:
   When familial financial obligations become overwhelming, especially within strained relationships, it's crucial to understand one’s legal standing and set clear boundaries to protect personal financial and emotional well-being.

2. Relationship Prioritization and Sacrifice:
   In romantic relationships, external factors like roommates can introduce tensions. Prioritizing the relationship may require compromises, such as adjusting living arrangements, to foster trust and security.

3. Emotional Decision-Making:
   Major life decisions, such as donating embryos or addressing financial debts, should be approached with emotional intelligence and consideration of current personal and relational states to avoid future regrets and relational conflicts.

4. Effective Communication and Mutual Understanding:
   Open, empathetic communication is essential in resolving conflicts and misunderstandings within both familial and romantic relationships. Acknowledging each other's feelings and perspectives fosters mutual respect and cooperation.

5. Balancing Personal and Relational Needs:
   It's important to balance personal responsibilities and relational commitments. Ensuring that both personal goals and relationship health are addressed contributes to overall well-being and harmony.

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Through these discussions, "The Viall Files" provides listeners with heartfelt advice and practical strategies to manage intricate personal affairs, balancing emotional well-being with responsible decision-making. Nick Viall's empathetic and insightful guidance helps callers navigate their challenges with clarity and resilience.

Transcript

[Nick]

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[Rachel]

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[Emily]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Emily]

Good. I'm Rachel and I'm 33, and I'm wondering if I should give my dad $125,000.

[Nick]

Okay. How rich are you?

[Emily]

Not that rich.

[Nick]

Okay. But you have $125,000 in cash to give them and money left over.

[Emily]

I do not. I have some of that, but not that much now.

[Nick]

Why is your dad asking you for $125,000?

[Emily]

Yeah. So when I was 17 and went to college, he took out student loans in my. Not in my name, but in his name, but the parent plus student loans.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Emily]

With an agreement that I would pay him back eventually. So a lot of things have changed since then. And when I first graduated, like, from college for my undergrad and then I got my master's, I did pay him back some. We were doing a payment plan and he was paying them monthly and I would pay a portion of it, but since then they went into, like, deferment with, like, Covid and different stuff. And then a lot of different factors have changed. He hasn't paid any of the interest. So it's $125,000. And he reached out to me a couple of weeks ago and said, hey, it's time. Let's sit down and discuss it. And he asked me for $125,000.

[Nick]

Okay, so.

[Emily]

But. Okay, but the things that have changed over the past couple of years is. So about two and a half years ago. So my dad is a pastor. Was a pastor growing up. Right.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Emily]

And about two and a half years ago, he got caught having an affair with the worship leader at our church.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Emily]

So in the past two years, my mom and dad went through a pretty messy divorce, and a lot of that was for financial reasons. And in the paperwork from court, he says that the student loans are his sole responsibility.

[Nick]

Which means what?

[Emily]

Which means, legally, it's his to pay the $125,000 of mine and anybody else's. My siblings are his sole responsibility, legally.

[Nick]

So he said that, or the court.

[Emily]

Said that he agreed to it. The court decided that. So they sit down and divorce. And they decided. And that's what he agreed to. That's the financial contribution that he took away from the divorce.

[Nick]

Alleviating your mom from that burden, I'm guessing, right?

[Emily]

Yes.

[Nick]

Okay, but how do you look at that, like, when you. When you say that to me, like, how do you interpret that as it relates to this story?

[Emily]

Well, my mom said that if. That he made it look like he was kind of like the superhero dad taking on the student loan debt for all of us. Um, and that if we pay him back for it, she wants to take him back to court because he's not holding up his financial side of their divorce.

[Nick]

Wow, so you're getting. You're getting pulled into the middle of. Of. Of this.

[Emily]

Yeah. So. Yeah.

[Nick]

Well, I'm sorry.

[Emily]

I also just think he. He asked me. So when we sat down, it wasn't like a payment plan. It wasn't like, hey, this is how much per month? Like, I also have student loans in my own name because I'm getting my doctorate right now. Like, I'm Almost fin. My PhD. It's complicated, but it wasn't any options like that. He was. He told me that he needs to get out of debt, that he has an opportunity that he wants to pursue, and that he would need to pay that off. And so I sold a house a few years ago and made a decent amount of money from that. So he basically asked me to take all of the money that I have and give it to him so that he can get out of debt while I'm still in debt.

[Nick]

Okay, well, yeah, A lot of layers here, right? So I'm guessing you Feel like, well, one year. I'm assuming your relationship with your father has soured quite a bit.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Nick]

And when he says, I have this kind of financial opportunity, a. Do you know what it is? Out of curiosity, and do you feel, you know, does it. Is he seem like a dreamer who could be really bad with money?

[Emily]

Yes. Yes. I am assuming he's buying a vacation home with his new wife because he married the mistress two weeks after their divorce.

[Nick]

Oh, is he still a pastor or you get kicked out?

[Emily]

No. No, he's not. He had to resign.

[Nick]

Okay. All right. What's he doing now?

[Emily]

He is selling meat.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Emily]

Like, to butcher shops. Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay. Praise Jesus. Well, okay, so, like, let's try to break this down here. You know, I don't know what conversations you had with your dad or the details. Obviously, you mentioned, like, he took out a load. I'm not familiar with this, like, parent, child, student loan thing, but it sounds like it was a thing, right? And where you went to your parents, your dad, at the time, when he wasn't. When he was still a pastor, married to your mom, and he took out a loan on your behalf with the assumption that you both agreed that you would pay him back over time. Is that correct?

[Emily]

Yes. So the parent plus loans are typically for the parents to pay for their students. There's no. Like, it's in their name. Typically, parents pay them. But our verbal agreement at 17 was I would pay his and mine.

[Nick]

Help me understand the parent plus thing. Because, like, when I was. When I was growing up, just for example, right? Like, we. We didn't have money. You know, I had 10 siblings after me, so I was lucky enough to get some athletic scholarships, partial scholarships. Then I took out student loans. I don't think this parent plus thing was available. But even if it was, I can guarantee you that my parents might have taken it out. But, like, they would, you know, I would. I would have definitely been responsible. My parents could afford to pay my college. Right. It was. It was up to me. And every family, I'm sure, is different, Right? Some people are more privileged and, you know, they, they. They. They spend. You know, as soon as their kids are born, they. They start college. Funds for their. Definitely did not have that for me. But what agreement did you have with your father back then? You know, other than, like, other than eventually you're gonna have to pay this back.

[Emily]

That's all it was, was. I mean, I don't think my parents knew very much about it. They're very young. They were, like, 19 when they had me. So they took out these. It was just an option. So they're completely in their name. If he never pays them back, it impacts his credit. He knew this, signing it, all these things. I was 17, so I thought I was going pre med. I was gonna be a doctor. I was like, oh, yeah, I'll pay it back. You know, you don't really know anything about money when you're 17. So he took these in his name. It'd be like if I bought you a car in my name. And you were like, oh, yeah, I'll pay you back someday. But you're not on any of the paperwork. And then so legally I come to you and I'm like, hey, you owe me this.

[Nick]

Yeah. So technically what you're saying to me is like, legally, if you tell your dad no, you're good. You know, I guess he could, I guess he could choose to sue you if he wanted to. And like anyone can sue anyone for anything. I guess that's possible. But even then he could probably.

[Emily]

Yeah, he probably, yeah, he took them out. There's nothing to stand on.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. Other than like, hey, my 17 year old daughter promised me she would pay me back, you know, 12 years later. Let me ask you this, Try to be as honest as possible because you know, you are calling and you know, so there's some part of you that wonders if you should. Like, I'm guessing you called in to try to do the right thing, whatever the right thing is. But like, how much of your decision is based off the fact that your dad screwed over your mom, blew up your entire family's life, and is acting incredibly selfish the past few years, a lot of it.

[Emily]

So he also, to give you some context, my younger brother and sister in law do not talk to my dad at all. They haven't in the two years since the divorce. My sister in law has uterine cancer. She's 23 and has uterine cancer. My dad still hasn't reached out, hasn't talked, has tried, but he's blocked. So he, you know, he sent a letter to their house asking, saying, I love you. I wish we could talk. By the way, you owe me 30,000. Let's figure out how to get it paid. So some context. It feels like he's prioritizing this money over us.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And it feels like he's prioritizing his new wife, which in the process of the divorce, we were like, hey, dad, if you want a divorce, mom, that's totally fine. Just kind of leave this lady out of it until it's done. Yeah, he didn't do. So he moved in with her. Like, all these different things. So it feels like there's just a lot of different decisions that have gone into the last few years. Like, I said, I was paying them. And then as the last few years have progressed and as he's sitting across from me, basically asking for everything that I've worked for in the last 10 years, where I'm now trying to get out of debt myself, pay off my PhD, and I'm going to be getting married soon, and my future husband doesn't want me to pay his money. So, yeah, it's messy.

[Nick]

Uh, yeah, definitely. And, yeah, I totally. I mean, you have no assurances. I mean, I guess technically it doesn't matter, but emotionally, it definitely matters. Knowing that, like, in the back of your mind, you're thinking, why would I give $125,000 to this woman who blew up my family's life and my dad left for. Because ultimately he is. He is doing her bidding, and he's trying to make her happy and the new stage of this marriage, and he needs this money for her. And, like, fudge that.

[Emily]

Right, Exactly. And if they want to figure it out, if they want to get out of debt, there's other things that they could do.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Emily]

And if I want to pay him back someday, I can do that, but not in a big lump sum.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, for starters, just, like, we can agree that your dad's request to just pay you $125,000 right now is bullshit, right? Like, yeah, I mean, it's still. You know, listen, it's. It's. I think people should, like, you know, do the right thing and. And. And honor their agreements and things like that. You were only 17. I think there's a. The part of you that's reaching out and asking, is that, like, despite being 17. My guess is, like, you remember that agreement and you remember the intention of being like, yeah, I want to. I want to. I'm gonna do the right thing and pay my dad back. Not. And not anticipating that 10 years later he would pull all this shit and it would become this messy thing. I want you to make the decision without using the I was 17 and I didn't know anything about money excuse, because my gut tells me that, like, you're kind of using that as an excuse to justify whatever you try to do. It's really important, these moments, to just kind of own your decision without trying to justify your decision. Whatever you decide is not going to be perfect because of all the variables of this decision that, like, you didn't anticipate. Right. But I think it's absolute bullshit that your dad is expecting or even asking you to just, like, write him a check for $125,000, even if that means you taking out another loan or, like, just burning through your entire savings. Especially since you are not only paying off your PhD, but, like, planning on, like, paying for a wedding, which clearly Dad's not helping out with that, you know?

[Emily]

So he actually said he would, which is kind of ironic. Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Emily]

In the same breath at the same coffee date. Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. If it's like, give me that money that he claims is yours, so then I will give you a little bit of it back to pay for your wedding. He's like, you know, he's.

[Emily]

Which I think partially because it would be a public thing, so he could publicly say he did this, he paid for the wedding or the reception.

[Nick]

Dad a prideful man.

[Emily]

I would say so. Yes.

[Nick]

Yeah. Despite your dad's clear imperfections, I hope that you. And it seems like you are. Try to maintain, like, just, you only have one dad kind of thing, for sure.

[Emily]

And kind of. So, actually. Do I know the other part of the story?

[Nick]

Sure.

[Emily]

So in the process of the divorce, I found out that he. He's not my biological dad.

[Nick]

What?

[Emily]

And they had lied to me for 30 years. Yeah. Yeah. So what?

[Nick]

Who is your.

[Anya]

Oh, my God.

[Emily]

I don't know.

[Nick]

Oh, my God. Wow. Do you look like him? No, clearly not.

[Emily]

I look like my mom.

[Nick]

Okay. Yeah. How did it come up?

[Emily]

Well, I had some suspicions. My grandma had made a couple of comments just, like, offhand. And, like, once I saw a picture of my mom pregnant and was like, oh, she would have been pregnant with me in that picture. And my grandma, like, looked at me and was like, if you have any questions, you can ask me, or just, like, random stuff like that, that. I was like, what the hell? Like, that's weird. And then I don't know. Yeah. So I had some random suspicion. So when this all, like, came to be the divorce, like, it all exploded. Really. Just one day, we kind of found out different stuff. And I was sitting down with my dad because I was really close with my dad before all of this. And I was sitting down with him, and I was like, what is going on? And he was like, there's just a lot. There's a lot you don't know. And I looked at him and I was like, maybe. Or maybe I do. And he, like, looked at me, and I Was like, I don't know. I was like, I have my suspicions. And he looked at me, and I was like, are you my dad? And he was like, I'm your dad. And he's like, don't ever say that. And I was like, but biologically. And he's like, no. So, yeah.

[Nick]

Do you know whose decision was it to not tell you? I'm assuming your mom's.

[Emily]

My mom says it was my dad because my dad. So my parents.

[Nick]

Is this after the divorce, my dad. Is it after the divorce.

[Emily]

After the divorce that she said it was my dad's decision? Yes, but she said it was because he. She doesn't. She didn't want me to. He didn't want me to ever think differently of him. He wanted the relationship with me. He didn't want all of this. But also, they said that that was part of the reason why they got married.

[Nick]

Have you seen your birth certificate? Is he on your birth certificate? Your biological.

[Emily]

He is not. Well, so I have two. Because he adopted me. So my first was in my mom's maiden name, and he's not on that one. But then the other after adoption.

[Nick]

And you only got all this paperwork after you found out?

[Emily]

I had seen the birth certificate before. That was one of my suspicions. But they weren't married at the time. They got married, like, a year later. So I thought they just changed my name when they got married. Or I thought maybe my mom had multiple partners and, like, didn't know or something.

[Nick]

Gotcha. And is. Have you asked your dad. Have you asked your dad why you guys didn't tell him? Does he have a different version?

[Emily]

No, basically the same. He says that, like, he wanted that relationship with me. He didn't want me to treat him any differently. He didn't want me to think anything.

[Nick]

Okay. How do you feel about that? Just out of curiosity? I don't.

[Emily]

I mean, it's been a couple of years since I found out. Obviously, it was kind of hard. I still don't know who my biological dad is, and I don't really care to know. Like, my dad. The dad that I'm talking about today is my dad. By all sense, besides a sperm that contributed to me kind of thing, there was, like, some, like, health things. Like, I did, like, 23andMe to find out, like, what my ancestry is and some, like, health questions I've had. But that's it. Really?

[Nick]

Wow. Okay. What would I do if I were you? Well, okay, we're not.

[Emily]

And also, you're a dad, so can you imagine, like, Your daughter someday, like, you'll be in a financial place, obviously, to pay for her college, but had you not and made this agreement and then later in life, she came back to you and was just like, I'm not like. You know what I mean?

[Nick]

Yeah, no, it's a challenge.

[Emily]

I feel like it's a lot to ask.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, it's hard for me to say what I think I would do in this particular situation because it would just be very easy for me to say, of course I would never do that. I mean, like, I would like to think that, you know, despite my, you know, ability to support my. My daughter as of today, like, I wanted to today, I could just be like, I got your college. Right. Like, I hope that's the case 18 years from now. But I don't. I don't want to spoil my kids. And I would probably figure out a way to teach her some kind of fiscal responsibility and things like that. If I were in your dad's financial position, I would like to think that I would make you pay and. But set up some kind of, like, structured plan, right? Like, the fact that you. The fact that this never came up until your dad. Dad needed the money is, I guess, shady on his part in a way. Like, it feels as opposed to, you know, when you were 17, that was an opportunity for him to sit you down and be like, all right, I want you go to school. I want you to educate yourself. But, like, eventually, you're gonna have to pay me back. And let's just agree that, like, once you get out of college, you're gonna have to start paying me at a certain type of interest rate. You know, things like that. Like my. I bought that lake house for my parents. My parents move up to the lake house. And so my. My brother bought the house I grew up in from my parents, right? So he technically took out a loan from my dad, and they had my uncle, who's a lawyer, write a contract, and my. My brother has to pay an interest rate. You know, like, he has to legally, even though it's his dad who, you know, it's. You know. But legally, my brother is obligated to follow certain rules and. And pay a certain interest rate and things like that. Right. And so I probably. If you asked me what I would have done, I probably would have done something like that and not, you know, and again, even if need the money, it's really about, like, again, I would have wanted to teach my child some kind of, like, responsibility and. And. And fiscal responsibility and. And Yada, yada. But your. Your. Your dad didn't do all that, so.

[Emily]

And to be fair, when I finished my master's degree, I did pay him. Like, we sat down.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[Emily]

And how much did you pay him? A portion. I paid. He doesn't know. He denies that I paid him, but I. I did. I could go back in my bank.

[Nick]

And, like, how much do you think you.

[Emily]

It would be like, six years ago? I think it was like 700amonth for three years.

[Nick]

Okay. Yeah. And then what? Why'd you stop?

[Emily]

Because I went back to school, and then Covid happened, and the loans went into deferment. So that's the other thing is he took out originally, I think it was like 48,000 or something, and now it's 125,000 with all of the interest that he could have been paying those to and still made a payment plan or something, too.

[Nick]

Damn interest. I'll get you. Yeah, that's it. That's a really good point. Because he decided to manage how he decided to manage this financial situation. He was in charge of it. You certainly weren't in charge of it. It was not even top of mind. He made certain decisions that turned $45,000 worth of debt into $125,000 worth of debt. And he wants you to now, like, foot the bill for that $125,000. Okay, that's actually very helpful. So. Well, I mean, first of all, you don't have to do anything. You. You can just be like, no, if you want. If you wanted to try.

[Emily]

That's what my brother is choosing to do. Got the letter.

[Nick]

It's just like, I'm assuming he's their biological father. Not that that really matters, part of the story.

[Emily]

And he looks just like my dad, so no denying that.

[Nick]

So. Yeah, listen, if you wanted to, like, do this feeling like you did the right thing guilt free with the, you know, acknowledging that I. I have some kind of responsibility to this money, like, it's not. I. I did agree to pay this man back. A lot of things happened. But all that aside, it feels a little wrong to say off. I'm not going to pay you. Which is partly out of spite for his actions that, you know, because there's a lot of hurt there. So I would say one, how you handled that debt when I was, like, going. When I was in college and barely even adult is, like, your responsibility, like, not mine. So, like, as far as I'm concerned, I owe you $45,000, not $125,000. I'm not in a position to start paying you right now because of the obvious things. And, like, you can't. You don't get to just show up 12 years later with a bill demanding payment. You know, that, like, quite honestly, like, I'm not even legally obligated to pay, you know, But I want to do the right thing. And so I can start paying you at a certain time, at a certain rate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you can dictate terms. You can be like, this is what I decided to do. It's kind of a take it or leave it offer. And you could just say like, dad, I mean, I love you and I'm, you know, I'm a lot angry with you and blah, blah, blah. But, like, you handle your finances a certain way and it's not my responsibility to, like, make up for your poor choices, of which you made many. So, you know, you gotta deal with it. But, like, I am grateful for you helping me out when I was 17, and I do feel like I do owe you that money and I want. And I do want to be responsible for what I said I owed you. And, and you know, I can. I've already paid you. Blah. Here are the receipts. Yada, yada, yada. Yeah, you can go from there and then, like, I don't know, like, interest, you know, I don't know how you want to figure that part out if, if whatever, but. Because you probably should be paying, I guess, some interest, I suppose, on that. But I mean, and again, like, I don't get to decide what the right thing is. Like, you're just asking my opinion. It's just like, I guess that would be maybe the fairest way for you to try to, quote, unquote, do the right thing. You know, And I honestly, this is mostly based off the idea that, like, humans are clearly imperfect. I don't think this is reason for alienating your. Your dad for the rest of your life. This is a man who did, you know, who took you in and raised you and loved you and, and you felt loved and you felt like you had a father. And. And I think that's very meaningful and for sure.

[Emily]

Yeah, I definitely don't want it to. To completely ruin our relationship or what's left of it.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And I don't, I don't want to just screw him over. I don't want to just say, like, you, dad, like, here you go.

[Nick]

But yeah, I mean, I think it's.

[Emily]

Like, I'm not going to do it on his terms.

[Nick]

Yeah. And you don't have to. So I think it's kind of some version of that where it's just like, you know, you kind of figure out what you owe him and what you think you can afford and try to come up with something that is reason and, and you know, start paying them back at a, at a, you know, a. Monthly installments, you know, and you can tack on a little interest. I don't, I don't know, you know, like, and it's kind of a take it or leave it offer. You know, as far as your mom being like, well, if you decide to pay him back, I'm gonna take him back to court. I. I would try to talk your mom out of that. It's just going to cost her money. It's just going to be messy. It's just like, essentially your mom's going to be spending her money on lawyers. It's just like if your mom does that and, and I, I'm assuming in some way your dad is eventually just going to go to lawyers. So like, if your mom really is. I wouldn't tell your mom, honestly, because it's just gonna. Yeah, I mean, I don't want you to lie to your mom, but I don't. But if she really is planning on doing it, she's not doing anyone any good, including herself. Because like, if I'm understanding, what you're saying is like my. Your dad just took on a financial liability and honestly helped your mom. I don't know why, like, what she going to court for to get some of that responsibility?

[Emily]

Well, so, I mean, they were going to court for the divorce because they'd been married for 30 years, but essentially there was a lot of money that had been missing. My dad had like secret accounts and like, money had been. Got going missing for a while that my mom thinks he was giving to his mistress the whole time. Like, she thinks that they were together for like seven years before they found out and that he was paying for different things. So the court was very drawn out to get all of these financial records to. It was really just a financial. Like that was. It was what they were fighting over because all the kids were grown.

[Nick]

But what I'm saying is your dad assumed the liability of the debt. So like, when people get divorced, you have, you have assets, you have debt, right? You know, so you could have a million dollars of assets and you could have $1.2 million in debt. So like, and then so it turns out you're actually. You owe $200,000, even though you have a million dollars in assets. Right. So they basically, I'm guessing, they who? You know, someone gets these assets, someone gives these ads, and then they also split up the debt. So your dad took on that debt, which alleviated your mom from that debt. So, like, is she going to go back to court to, like, say, I want some of that debt?

[Emily]

No, but she had her own student loans, I guess. I don't know. So she thought for. He got out of taking a portion of hers, she thought, because he was going to pay ours.

[Nick]

Oh, so it's like, oh, if you, if you pay your father, then I.

[Emily]

Want him zero in his mind. And she's like, well, I have this. But you didn't take half of this.

[Nick]

Gotcha. All right, that makes sense because it.

[Emily]

Looks like on paper he was getting the harder hit, but in reality, in his mind, if he was still asking us for all this money, he wasn't taking any hit.

[Nick]

Yeah, I'd still try to leave mom out of it because I think it's. It would just be unnecessarily messy. Yeah, it's some version of that. I mean, you don't owe this. You know, you don't really owe him anything. Technically, legally, it's something like that where you dictate terms and you come with the receipts. Not like, let's figure this out. It's just like, hey, I want to address your ask. You come with a folder, a binder, you show them the receipts, and you just flat out say, I'm not paying you $125,000. Most of this is interest that was, you know, you didn't pay it off over, you know, you let the interest accrue. I was, I was going to college. I wanted to done it that way, but quite honestly, I wasn't, like, in charge of it. You were. And I am not. No, I'm. I'm not currently, like, I'm not going to be paying for your financial, like, choices because. And. And if you, depending how petty you want to go and you want to, you could say, like, clearly, like, I don't want to get into it with you, but you and mom went for the divorce, but clearly we all know that, like, there was a lot of speculation about, like, where. How you were spending money and where it was going and that could have been going to pay off this debt that is now, like, accrued to $125,000. And so I'm just simply not covering that. I owe you. I borrowed $45,000 from you that I agreed to pay I've paid you already $10,000 or whatever it is, and so I owe you $35,000 left. And so I'm, I'll start paying you now, but I, I, I, you know, I can only pay you in monthly installments. You know, you can decide whether you want to tack on some interest rates starting, like, now until you pay it off. That'd be going above and beyond. And you can do that and just say, hey, I, I hope, I hope that you see this, knowing that some of your other family members, you know, they're not going to pay you, by the way, just so you know, because legally they don't have to. I want to do the right thing. I. Despite all your choices and the hurt you've caused this family and me and our relationship, I still love you. I still want to have. This is me doing what I think is the right thing, and I hope that you appreciate that. And this is where we're at.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. That's kind of how I left it with him. I said, like, it's definitely not going to be a lump sum. I said, I'm still not sure. Like, legally, I don't owe you anything, but ethically and morally, I'm not sure where I stand on it. And I was like, I'm going to need some time to decide, but it would be on my terms. And I was like, and that's probably going to be more of a payment plan, if anything. What do you say is what I left it with, with, with him. He was upset at first, but by the end of the conversation, he, like, gave me a hug and said that he loves me and, like, nothing that I decided was going to change that. And we kind of left it like that. He did say he would email me all of the numbers. And this was a couple weeks ago. I never got the numbers, so I'm not sure where he's had it. On it now.

[Nick]

I think you're handling it the best possible way in a messy situation. And, and I think you got to give yourself some credit for that and some grace, because, I mean, you already seen how your siblings are handling it, which is different than yours holding on to anger and resentment and grudges. It doesn't help you. It's a toxic, negative energy that just brings you down. And, yeah, I think you'll feel good trying to do the right thing, and I think it'll motivate you. You'll make up that money and then some.

[Emily]

So what do I do about the fact that my future Husband doesn't want me to pay it.

[Nick]

How. When are you guys getting married?

[Emily]

We haven't set a date yet.

[Nick]

He doesn't want you to do any of it? Nothing. He's just like that, basically.

[Emily]

He's like, it's your dad's responsibility. And the way that he's treated me, obviously he doesn't have the relationship aspect of it.

[Nick]

The part of your fiance that wants to have your back and be protective and. And. And say things like, he didn't treat you. He doesn't deserve this. Based on how he treat you, I think we can chalk that up into him wanted to be a protective partner to you, but ultimately you're in a position to say, I appreciate you having my back, but, like, I feel good about this decision and I want to do this. And while I understand your point of view, what I want, what I really need from you is to support me in my decision, because this is making me feel good. Because this is like. Yeah, because you're calling. You want to do the right thing. Right? You know what I'm saying? You know, you don't have to pay your dad. So this is about what you want to do because you. You don't want this hanging over your head. You don't want your d. Mess to be brought into your life. And, yeah, you still want a relationship with this man. And. And you're trying to work through this and all this, like, toxicity of. Of other people's decisions so that, you know, hopefully in five years or whatever, like, the. The dust can settle and you guys can move forward with your life. And. Yeah. And. And you are betting on yourself and your ability to, like, figure this out, make some money. And. And I respect the hell out of that. And I think that's great. Great. I. That all being said, you know, he is your fiance and your future husband. So from a financial aspect, I think you guys should try to be on the same page in terms of where this money is going. You're not married yet. It's not his money, so he doesn't really have a say. But I would like. I think you should try to be on the same page, but I think it's more about, you know, if you decide to do this, explaining to your fiance why and asking him to have your back, because this is the decision that you feel is right and something you want to do and you're not doing it because you. You. You know, you don't have to. And so you wanted.

[Emily]

You know, I just don't want it to turn into A, like, who am I choosing, my dad or him?

[Nick]

Well, here, I hope that your fiance doesn't put you in that position. You know, again, he's not your husband, he's your fiance. And then, you know, it's not his money. He doesn't have the right to, you know, he's not, you're not spending his money, and you don't need another guy in your life telling you what to do with your money. So I think, I hope that you can articulate this to your fiance, and I hope you can say, well, hey, I, I don't, I don't agree with it, but I, I understand what you're saying, and I, I support you. Whatever you decide. I support you, especially because, again, this is about you feeling like you did the right thing. And this is about you feeling like I need to do this because I don't want this hanging over my conscious. I don't want this to feel like, you know, my family is already torn apart. And I, I can handle this. You know, I'm not paying him as $125,000. I'm certainly not going to pay him a lump sum. But like, I, I did agree to this man to pay him back. And I'm, I'm, and I'm gonna stick to my word, you know, like, your fiance should be able to respect that. He, I hope that your fiance doesn't make you feel like you have to choose between him and your dad. And I hope your fiance understands the importance of still trying to have a relationship with this man. Your father, he should definitely support that. I, I, I think, yeah, I mean, dad issues are a real thing. They affect our decisions, especially women, when their relationships with men, I, I, your, your fiance should appreciate how emotionally mature you've tried to handle this situation, despite its challenges, because they're, you know, you are, you are trying to work through a very difficult situation of one that you were a victim of, essentially. You know, like, you didn't, you didn't choose to be lied to your whole life about your biological father. You didn't choose for your father to, like, leave your mother and blow up your family life. And now you're trying to handle this. And like most people, people don't handle this way. In the future, you two are going to get married and shit's going to happen. And this is a demonstration of how you handle very difficult times. And you're handling it in the best possible way. And you're not leading with what you deserve. You know, you're not leading with, I'M the victim and how do I get. You know, and that's a rare and good quality, and I hope your fiance recognizes that.

[Emily]

Yeah, I think he does. His big thing is just. Just that he wants me to get out of debt and, like, pay my loans first before he. Prior. Before I prioritize my dad's debt and like, lifestyle.

[Nick]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's totally fair. And maybe you. You can meet in the middle or whatever, but, yeah, I think you definitely dictate terms. And if you can't afford to pay it right now, and if paying your dad means you can't pay off loans that are accumulating interest rate right now, then maybe you don't. He doesn't get it right now. Maybe you're like, hey, I. I do owe you this money. I can't afford to pay you now. You don't get to just show up at my door and just say. Say you owe me. It's been like 12 years. So, like, this is mostly based off of the fact that you've made bad decisions and you've spent money you. On things that you shouldn't have spent it on. And that's not my fault. So, yeah, I mean, I'm. I'm with him there.

[Emily]

So for sure nothing's saying that my dad can't pay it off. And that's what I told him. He can do whatever he wants if he wants to. I think his wife has multiple properties. If they want to sell one and he pays it off, it doesn't change my decision. I can still pay him.

[Nick]

Him.

[Emily]

What I think is fair either way.

[Nick]

Yeah, exactly.

[Emily]

And he can be out of debt.

[Nick]

So, yeah, get on the same page with a fiance. Make sure he supports your decision and the. And make sure he understands the reason, and then you guys can figure out what you guys think is fair for you. Yeah, like, it's like, hey, I appreciate you having my back, but he actually has to almost tweak how he has your back because he has to get on. He has to say, babe, I'm really proud of you, and this is a difficult situation, and whatever you decide, you obviously have good judgment, you've thought this through, and, And. And I support you in your decision, and we'll get through this together.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Cool. All right.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Well, let me know what you decide. I'd love a. Love an update in the future with how. How it goes, but congratulations on the engagement. Congratulations on pursuing your PhD and. And all that fun stuff. What are you getting your PhD in?

[Emily]

Psychology.

[Nick]

Awesome. Cool.

[Emily]

I'M a counselor right now, so. Yeah.

[Nick]

Oh, very cool. And I, Yeah. What, what do you, what like what's your end goal? Like what's your dream, your dream job?

[Emily]

I would like to. So I'm writing my dissertation actually on solo travel and, and how just like the personal. I can't even think now. But the outcomes of solo travel and how it changes like your self efficacy and things like that, the transformations. So I'd love to someday incorporate that with like therapy and counseling and do some type of like travel therapy.

[Nick]

Oh, very cool. Give me, give me the 62nd like reason why you think it's. What are the benefits of, of it.

[Emily]

Of solo travel in general or travel in general?

[Nick]

Sure, yeah. The. What you're writing your dissertation on, like in terms from a psychology.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically when you, when you solo travel in your normal day to day life, you're in social contacts that help you to just kind of confirm the beliefs that you already have. Right. You're not really challenged, you're kind of just like repeating the pattern. So when you travel you're put in new contacts, you're experiencing new things which is what causes self efficacy to grow, is being challenged and then successful on those challenges. But you're also removing that social barrier that, that prevents those new beliefs from forming and challenging the beliefs that were already there. So in a solo context, when you're traveling with others, you still have that social component where you're still kind of just like re, like articulating the same beliefs. So solo, you come back, you're able to kind of challenge those beliefs. And there's a theory, it's called transformative learning theory. And it's when you have this kind of groundbreaking discovery, then you're able to go through and kind of process what you believe and why you believe that. But I think travel is an outlet to do that.

[Nick]

Very cool. Thank you for explaining. That makes a lot of sense. Awesome. Well, thank you for calling again. Please keep us updated and congratulations and all the other amazing things going on in your life and sorry you're going through this, but you seem to be approaching it in a very healthy way. So I think you will feel good about that in the long run.

[Emily]

Thank you. Appreciate that.

[Nick]

All right, take care. Nice to meet you.

[Emily]

Thanks. And go Packers.

[Nick]

Awesome. Yeah. There we go. Hell yeah.

[Jeff]

Bye.

[Nick]

Bye. Bye.

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[Anya]

It's good.

[Jeff]

How are you?

[Nick]

Good. What's your name?

[Anya]

Anya. And I am 30 years old.

[Nick]

How can I help?

[Anya]

Anya, I've known my boyfriend for three years now, officially as of two days ago. And we dated a little bit in the past. He moved away and then as soon as he moved back about a year ago. We have been in a super serious, like, very emotional, beautiful relationship and everything was going really smoothly. And then one, one night we were out and he kind of, he said that he thought I was like, looking at other people and I was like, I don't even know how you could think that. Like, I think I'm just kind of. We're just out together. And then through time, like a couple of other times that things like that came up, he mentioned how upset he was and how he feels super confused and I guess upset by the fact that I have a male roommate. And that leads him to believe that he thinks that there's something strange going on and that on like, bad days when he's like having a rough day or something, his mind starts to spin and he thinks that, like, something is going on between me and this other person and thinks that it's like he doesn't understand how I don't like, see that it's a problem to have a male roommate who is straight. Anytime I mention him, he'll get upset about it. Like when I even mention, like, conversations that I have that are super casual. And it's caused so many, like, fights and rifts in our relationship.

[Nick]

Tell me about this roommate.

[Anya]

I used to live with him and his ex, who is a hometown friend of mine. Lived together for three years now. And because I'm not from where I live now, we both are from the same place place. So she's one of the few people I knew when I moved here. So we all lived together. And at one point they had like kind of a crazy breakup. She was able to move out and then him and I stayed living together in the lease because we had a lease together. And at that point, we both were single and we were like. We just get along so well that, like, it'll be so easy to just split rent, move somewhere else to get nothing ever, like, anything more than platonic sibling like relationship. And so we just continued to live together and to make things easier, not have to split up all the furniture, everything like that. Anyway, that's. That's our story. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Nick]

All right, well, listen, I mean, I can. I can already give you my opinion. You can be doing nothing wrong, and it can still be something that justifiably bothers someone you care about. You know, two things can be true. Doesn't matter how platonic or how much you don't want to have sex with your roommate or how much you see him like a brother, he's not your brother. And the fact that he does live with you sounds like this boyfriend of yours. It's a serious relationship, I'm guessing maybe you guys have talked about the future together, etc. Etc.

[Anya]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

[Nick]

Moving in is a big step in any relationship. Right. And the reality is, is that, like, this roommate of yours who is a straight man, has connects with you in ways that your boyfriend probably aspires to, you know, simply just because of the quality time and your safe place. Your home is your roommate's safe place, you know? And, you know, when I met Natalie, I. I mean, I was single for years. I had tons of women friends that were platonic.

[Anya]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Truly platonic friends. But when I met Natalie, you know, it became a. Quickly became a relationship that, you know, I was invested in, and it quickly became a relationship that I saw a potential future in, and that's where my energy started going, you know, and that's the relationship I started prioritizing. So those platonic relationships went away, in.

[Anya]

A way, ate a little bit.

[Nick]

Yeah, a lot of it. You know, as I say, you know, know, on every call on some way, you know, it's like, it's. Where is your energy going? And where your energy goes is. Is what you prioritize in a way, you know, and sometimes, yeah, it's towards your roommate, sometimes not, because maybe even choose to because you live with him and he's there, you know.

[Anya]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And so there are times that your roommate gets to check in with you in ways that your boyfriend probably would like to. How is your day? What's going on? He can see. You know, your roommate might see, pace around the house and look stressed in a way that, like, he could say, hey, is anything wrong?

[Anya]

Or is everything okay?

[Nick]

You know, and things like that. That's a boyfriend's job, you know, sort of the job he wants to have. And so, yeah, I. If I'm your boyfriend, it would pro. It would bother me. You know, it would just. It just would, you know, and not because you're necessarily doing anything wrong, but, you know, and there's always the element of not all cases, but most. But when it comes to a man and women being platonic friends that are both straight, usually that friendship started with one of those people being at least somewhat romantically interested. Now, again, you met this guy through another woman, and I understand. So maybe this is one of the few exceptions to that rule. I don't know.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But regardless, like, nine times out of 10, even when it was when. Even when you meet someone, they're like, oh, this is my friend Jenny. And, like, I see her like a sister. And. And it's. And. And it's two people who, like, constantly are there for each other and tell dating stories. Usually someone initially there was an attraction, and then they just got friend zoned and they accepted the friend zone. And then, like, maybe they learned about this person. They once wanted to take their clothes off and got the ick and realized, yeah, I can't believe I. I wanted to have sex with you 10 years ago, because I do see you as my brother now. But they're what, you know, he's not your brother. Brother. You know, he's not your brother. If the world came to an end, so to speak, or you guys got stuck on an island for a long period of time, eventually you would have sex with this roommate. You know, you would. And if it was your brother, you wouldn't unless you were creepy or weird, you know? And it's like, that's just the nature of the relationship, and there is no changing that or no denying that. So I. I honestly think if. If you are serious about this relationship that you're in, I think I would go out of your way to try to change your living situation.

[Anya]

I appreciate that because I did kind of. I. I came on because I was like, you know, in my head, I'm like, I can't even see this at all. Like, I can't even see how you see this. Like. Cause in my head, I'm like, I understand how beyond platonic it is. Like, they're at least for me. And I would say for him, there has never even been a moment of that, like, what you're describing. Like, I feel the one out of ten. Yeah, right.

[Nick]

Even if that's true. Again, he still gets to. This roommate gets to connect with you in ways your boyfriend would rather have it be him. Right.

[Anya]

So then I guess this brings me to my other thing. So it's like, in my head, it's like, I'm like, oh, maybe. Because sometimes I do have conversations with my roommate and it feels like, oh, my gosh, like, it's nice. Cause it's an objective opinion. Like, he barely cares, like, but he gives it to, you know, and so I'm in my head like, well, sometimes these conversations. And like, in my head I'm like, he's probably better than my boyfriend at, like, you know, at helping me out with something. But do you think that it's like, because he's there?

[Nick]

Well, one, I can tell you that, like, again, while I completely understand what you're saying and it makes a ton of sense, if your boyfriend heard you say that, it would hurt. Hurt him.

[Anya]

Yeah, definitely. Oh, my God.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Nick]

They would hurt any man. And would, you know. You know what? You should ask your roommate how he would feel. Like, how would he feel?

[Anya]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[Nick]

If he was really objective, he would say exactly what I'm saying.

[Anya]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And if he actually doesn't say what you're saying, then maybe he doesn't think of you as much as of a friend.

[Jeff]

Oh, okay.

[Nick]

Or he just selfishly, like, you know, likes his living situation, doesn't want to it up, doesn't want to pay more money, you know, and. And. And, you know, so there's one of three options. He'll either tell you the truth, he'll agree with me, or there's something going on that he's not admitting to. Either to himself or probably most likely, he's going to convince himself of a reason because it benefits him.

[Anya]

Okay, that makes sense.

[Nick]

That would just be more an experiment. I don't think you need to ask your roommate his advice because he's not objective in this. In this scenario because it does affect him. If you're serious about this relationship, your boyfriend has every right to. To feel how he feels. He doesn't have to see it the way you see it. He doesn't have. It's not about him not trusting you.

[Anya]

Okay.

[Nick]

Put yourself in his shoes.

[Anya]

Okay. So when I've done that, I guess in my head, and maybe I'm just completely blind, but in my head I'm like, I don't think if you had the same situation as we do and how platonic it is and how, like.

[Nick]

Yeah, but I don't Think you're really being honest with yourself. You're not. You're not thinking maybe I'm not. All right, well, let's, let's, you know, know. How would you feel about it if you knew this woman roommate of his would be someone he would go to for emotional support over you constantly? You know, how would you feel if, like, you go home to your bedroom and then they are talking in the live in, in their living room till two in the morning, having a conversation about maybe you sometimes, you know, how he's feeling about the relationship and getting advice from this woman that, like, you know, you're not, like, friends with, maybe you don't really hate. How would that make you feel?

[Anya]

I don't know if I'm just being stubborn, but in my head I'm like, if that made our relationship better, like, if you were, like, getting emotional advice from her and figuring things out in.

[Nick]

Your life that maybe, like you keep saying, you're, you're, you're assuming it makes it better, right? In this scenario, you have to assume that your initial reaction is discomfort when you're quote, unquote, putting yourself in your boyfriend's shoes. You're inserting your reality into your boyfriend's shoes from, from your perspective. So when you, when you play out this scenario in your head and you give your boyfriend this fake straight woman roommate, you see her the same way you see your male roommate. And then you're like, oh, there's absolutely nothing to worry about. And every conversation I have with my male roommate is actually benefiting my relationship with my boyfriend. He just doesn't appreciate or see that, et cetera, et cetera. And you're inserting all those variable into that narrative, which is why you come to the conclusion that you have. But instead of all that, you really have to put yourself in your boyfriend's shoes, which is there's this general discomfort because he doesn't, he isn't there knowing what you guys are talking about. He doesn't have the security or trust that, like, this guy has his best interest in mind. When you compare it, you have to compare it knowing nothing and just knowing that, like, it's kind of weird for my boyfriend to have a roommate that, like, you know, what if she wants to walk around the house naked? You know, it's her house, it's her. You know, what if she's just one of those people who's just like, comfortable with her body and titties out and just like, she's just like, I don't know, like I don't give a. He's like, I don't care. I'm not gonna him. How would that make you? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you really. You would just be like, chill.

[Anya]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. So when you put yourself in his shoes, you're filling in all the potential unknowns with all the knowns that you are aw of in the dynamic of your roommate. Does that make sense?

[Anya]

Right? Yes, it does.

[Nick]

And what bothers your boyfriend is all the unknowns that he just, you know, like, okay, and. And if your situation truly is the exception to the rule, great, good for you. But most things aren't right. And so your boyfriend has to just assume that despite a million other scenarios that he's been aware of or, like, this happened and some shit happened and someone cheated and da, da, da. But no, my girlfriend has one male roommate who's not a creep, you know? Like, you know, it's just like, come on. It's. You're expecting him to, like, have an unreasonable amount of, like, trust insecurity in a situation that, like, he shouldn't be asked to have to do that.

[Anya]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. He has said that a lot too.

[Nick]

You're not doing anything wrong. But it's like. It's like, you know, it'd be no different than saying, you know, like, you. You could have met your boyfriend and you could say, like, hey, I got this crazy job that, like, takes me out of the country for six months and I'm offline. And then your boyfriend would be, right, well, I think I can make that work. And, you know, like, yeah, it's possible, like, yeah, you could ask your boyfriend to be okay with this. But, like, you leaving for six months out of the year, being offline would clearly put a stress on your relationship, and this is adding stress to your relationship. And. And. And you're expecting your boyfriend to, like, not feel a certain way, and he's having a very normal reaction to a situation you have put him. Him in, and you were expecting him to ignore his intuition, his feelings, and just, like, give you a level of trust that, like, yeah, I guess it would be great. It'd be great, you know, if your boyfriend. Let's flip the switch, like, was living across the country as, like, a teacher surrounded by women. Like, yeah, I guess you could definitely choose to trust him and maybe you could trust him, but, like, as a human being, you'd be like, I don't know what this motherfucker's doing constantly. And I guess I'm just Assuming he's just, like, always, good, good. And I, you know, I'm assuming anytime he's put in a vulnerable situation where maybe a woman approaches him and hits on him, that he's always just like, oh, always doing the right thing. Always right. Eventually, like, we are humans, right? You know, what's the saying? Nothing good happens after midnight. You know, that there's. That. That saying is the way it is because, like, after midnight, usually the environment that people are in are tempting them, are putting them in compromising situations. It's a lot easier for an addict to stay clean when they're not surrounding themselves, people doing drugs and alcohol and things like that, because humans eventually just have a breaking point. And I'm giving you extreme examples. But, like, again, like, the environment you're in is an environment from your boyfriend's perspective. Is this, like, why are you putting yourself in an environment that just ultimately, like, saves you a little bit of money and it just was convenient when you were single? But, like, if you want to be in a relationship where we talk about our future and we talk about getting engaged and we talk about spending life together, why the. Are you trying to make this situation work?

[Anya]

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is because right now it is the reason I don't. And I guess, like, it's kind of a jump to be like, okay, let me just move out, like, right now in the middle of, like, me. You know, what if we don't work out and this does. I don't know.

[Nick]

How long you been dating this guy?

[Anya]

Under a year now.

[Nick]

Okay. Where does he live?

[Anya]

He lives, like, 10 minutes away.

[Nick]

Do you spend a lot of nights at his house?

[Anya]

I wouldn't say a lot. I work late and he gets up early, so I. I don't. I would say probably three nights of the week. Probably.

[Nick]

Well, listen, again, you're right. I mean, like, despite everything I just said, I mean, like, practically speaking, it might be challenging for you to, like, break a lease or whatever. But, like, my point is, well, step one is to stop debating your boyfriend that he shouldn't be bothered by this or that he has nothing to worry about. Step one is, like, being like, you know what? I've talked to some people, and you're right. Honestly. Honestly, I'm realizing that if I. If the rose reverse, it would bother me more than I. I honestly don't see it. But I think I'm very biased because I, you know, like, there really is nothing going on there. But even so, like, I get it.

[Anya]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I get it that, like, I'm being a little stubborn by at least not like recognizing that. Like, if I were in your shoes, I understand why there's some discomfort there. It's like step one is just like not making him feel like he has to convince you why he's upset. So that will get you a long way. Step two is being like, all right, well, listen, like, you know, how much is left in your lease or, you know, six months, 12 months? Three. Three months.

[Anya]

It's not even about breaking the lease. It's more about like, where are we going? Where I like, live, I guess, if that makes sense.

[Nick]

Well, you can say, listen, like, I'm on a month to month, but like, I hear you. I, I appreciate you, yada yada. You know, you haven't only dating with this guy for less than a year. I don't know. I mean, mean. But step one is, is, is, is acknowledging that he has the right to be upset. And then you could be like, listen, I. That all being said, like, this isn't. I do like my place. It is a good living situation. You definitely don't have anything to worry about. Like, I am at a month. A month. And like, I'm down to spend more time at your place. I. How can I make you feel in the short term? How can I make you feel more comfortable with the situation? Situation? I mean, like, I'm down to like, reconsider my living situation, but like, you know, that fee, you know, this is where your boyfriend needs to empathize with you a little bit. It's just like, well, I don't know if we're ready to move in with each other. It feels kind of heavy to. Well, I. While I understand why you're upset, why this is a concern of yours or why this is, you feel the way you do. It feels like a lot to change my living situation for our relationship when, like, we're. We're still relatively new in this relationship.

[Anya]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, it's a step below moving in with.

[Anya]

Started like three months ago. Like three months into it. So like, even what started three months? Like, like the bringing up the roommate thing, it started like only a couple months in, which was even more challenging.

[Nick]

But that really, I mean, that's. I don't think anything but like, how long you've been dating matters. Right? You've been dating less than a year. You don't know if you know, you, you're excited about this guy. You see the potential. Potential. But four months from now, you guys could be broken up. Regardless of this room. The Living situation. I don't know. Like. And so, like, you're gonna move out, and then all of a sudden, like, you guys could break up, and you're like, well, that sucks, because I had a good thing, you know?

[Anya]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That being said, I will say, like, as a. As a heterosexual woman who dates men, like, I don't think. And no one's gonna be okay with this. Yeah. You know.

[Anya]

Yeah. Yeah, clearly.

[Nick]

So, honestly, I. I would think of it less about doing this for your boy, your current boyfriend, and I would. I would. I would look. So step one, acknowledging your boyfriend's frustration. He's not crazy for feeling the way he feels. Two, being like, well, I. You know, how can I make you short of, like, moving out tomorrow? How can I make you feel more comfortable? I mean, I'm down to spend more time at your place. I don't want to invite myself. You're certainly welcome to come over and spe more time here. I acknowledge what you're saying. I'm sorry it took me for so long just to see it, but I want to. I do want to make you feel more comfortable. So I think that'll go along. It should go a long way, and then kind of just communicate with your boyfriend from there. So, like, I'm going to start looking for a new situation, but, like, I. I don't want to rush into that. This is, by all accounts an affordable, good situation that I have, which I understand, understand isn't working for me or us long term. So I. I do want to start looking at changing that situation, but I don't want to, like, jump, make a rash decision that is costly for me and get myself and move in with someone I hate. But I think once you acknowledge it with your boyfriend, then maybe you guys can figure something out together. I don't know. Like. But step one is just not right now. You're just debating with him whether he should feel the way he does. He does or not. And you're just like, I don't see why you should feel this way because you have nothing to worry about. It's just like, okay, I guess, like, thanks for telling me how I should feel.

[Anya]

Well, yeah. And then when he's gotten mad, then I'm like, well, damn, are you just like. Are you gonna be this, like, mean, like, mad person, you know, so. But I wasn't. I don't think I have been at all thinking about how he feels.

[Nick]

Yeah, he's just getting frustrated because he's just like, I. I don't know how else to Articulate this. And you're just telling me in crazy for feeling the way I'm feeling.

[Anya]

Yeah. Okay.

[Nick]

He kind of feels a little gaslit in a way.

[Anya]

Oh, I bet he does. Now I'm seeing it. And I guess even you were saying, like, I guess a lot of platonic relationships really do afford to, like, kind of fall off and stuff like that.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, it's. If you're in a relationship worth your time, your. Your platonic friendships with the opposite sex should. Should fall off.

[Anya]

Okay.

[Nick]

And if they don't, there's. There's a reason why that would make me uncomfortable being in that relationship. Relationships take energy. They take priority. Like, that's the point of being in a relationship because you found someone who wants to prioritize you in. In ways that most people don't. You know, you invest in each other, you grow with each other. You try to become one in a way, you know, and he is feeling like you're doing that with another man, even if it is as friends, you know, I stopped having lunch dates with my girlfriends when I got a girlfriend.

[Anya]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Nick]

I wasn't like, hey, I'm going to lunch with Aaron. She'd be like, well, why aren't we going to lunch? You know?

[Anya]

Yeah, well, mine's the job. Like, my job too. And that, like, I know that that has to sort of switch because I have, like, the most social job in the world. And it does help. I know that it does. I work at Trader Joe's, so I'm like, I. No, I'm just so. It's so social and all my friends work there. Like, I have just, like. So it's all the time I'm, like, around people and like, all the platonic friends, everything.

[Nick]

Well, that's. He needs to be like, it's one thing to work with a bunch of men and be friendly with them and having guy friends. You're allowed to have guy friends at work and you're allowed to be in groups. Groups with men. But there's the. You know, when I was single, I would go to movies with my women friends. I'd go to dinner with my women friends. I would hang out their house and. And talk into the night and again, just as friends, which is like, I was. My guy friends, but, like, I didn't have a girlfriend to, like, worry about and, you know, and have a girlfriend who. Whose feelings I needed to consider, you know. And when I got a girlfriend, that all changed. I didn't. Like, I wasn't getting coffee with My girlfriends to chat and catch. Catch up. You know, that time I used to, like, invest in my relationship and. And connect with my girlfriend and spend time with my girlfriend, and if I wanted to, like, have a bunch of platonic friends with women, then it was more like, then I shouldn't want a girlfriend.

[Anya]

That's fair.

[Nick]

Relationships take work and they take sacrifice and compromise and like, you know.

[Anya]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, or you can be a, you know, a single, independent woman with a bunch of friends that are men and women and.

[Anya]

And, you know, just carry on like.

[Nick]

That and do what you want and go where you want. But being in a relationship does require some level of. Giving up, some level of independence and freedom for the sake of the connection of the relationship.

[Anya]

Okay. No, that's good. I don't think I've been told that, and I needed to be told that.

[Nick]

Glad I could help. Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's, you know, like. Yeah, you could be like, oh, you shouldn't have to give up anything for a man. It's like, you're not doing it for a man. You know, Again, regardless of what happens with this guy, you know, I don't. I. Most men that you date are going to have a problem with you having this roommate. It's. It's human nature.

[Anya]

That's fair.

[Nick]

You know, and honestly, they should be a little uncomfortable about it, you know, because, like, otherwise you have a boyfriend who really doesn't give a. What you're up to and what you're doing and honestly isn't focused on having a connection with you. But the things that bother your boyfriend about this have to do with connecting with you emotionally, you know, and the access this room is. Roommate has that he doesn't and he desires to have with you. I would think it'd be something that you're glad that your boyfriend desires.

[Anya]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, if he just thought of you as an object to have sex with, then he wouldn't give a. That you get to connect with this man emotionally late at night and things like that. He's like, I don't know, I'm getting laid. Who gives a. Yeah.

[Anya]

This is why I wanted the male perspective, because all my girlfriends, it's always just like, oh, no. Like, he should not, like, care about that. You've told him so many times how he can be secure about it, so. So thank you. I do see.

[Nick]

Yeah. But it's. Yeah. I mean, you could definitely use this an opportunity to test your man's security. Natalie could say, hey, I'm. I'm. I'm moving for six months and you can trust me so you shouldn't have a problem with it. And I guess I could choose to be like. I guess. Okay. You know, like at some point, you know, you have to decide what you want to do for the relationship. Relationship. Cool.

[Anya]

Okay. Yeah.

[Nick]

All right, well, glad I could help. Good luck.

[Jeff]

Thank you.

[Nick]

All right.

[Jeff]

Thank you so much.

[Nick]

All right. Bye.

[Anya]

Bye.

[Nick]

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[Nick]

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[Jeff]

Hi Nick.

[Emily]

I'm doing well.

[Jeff]

How are you?

[Nick]

Good. What's your name?

[Jeff]

My name is Emily. I am 38 years old and I'm wondering if I should donate some frozen embryos or keep them frozen.

[Nick]

Okay. Why? Are you considering donating them?

[Jeff]

I think my husband and I are done having kids. We had to do multiple rounds of IVF to have kids to begin with. We had my daughter and then we had to do more rounds and now we have two embryos remaining. I think we're done having kids for a few reasons, but then every time we try to sign papers to donate them, we just can't follow through. It's hard.

[Nick]

Is there an expiration date on on these embryos?

[Jeff]

No. And that's a question that I have out to our doctor too. So they've been frozen since 2021, you just have to pay yearly to keep them frozen. So there's a cost, but I don't know if the longer they're frozen, if the chances of success in transferring them goes down. That's a question. I don't know.

[Nick]

Gotcha. And. And then the donating part, I'm guessing, is just you feeling like you're doing something good or maybe helping other people who hope to have kids or. And can't.

[Jeff]

That's certainly an aspect of it. Another part is these are graded embryos. I know they're genetically tested. They are healthy embryos, ready to go. And so from my perspective, I at least need to give them a shot at life. Right. Like, it's really hard for me to keep these two potential beings frozen when they could have a very happy and healthy life.

[Nick]

I mean, that's just a perspective, you know, and that's a very generous perspective you have, but, I mean, I'm not a doctor or biologist, but, I mean, your body is full of, you know, embryo, you know. Right. I don't know. Like, I have sperm inside me, you know, that's potentially gives life.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Have you considered the emotional aspect to feeling like there is a child out there in this world that is biologically connected to you that you will have no rights or access to?

[Jeff]

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why we have a hard time finding things through. Right. Because on the one hand, you know, that's your child. It is. It is mine, and it is my husband's biological child. And to not have a say in how they're raised or who they are or even know them is just unfathomable. I can't imagine.

[Emily]

But.

[Jeff]

But weighing that against, like, not even giving them a shot at life, that's a decision that I have a hard time making. And we've considered, you know, do we donate them to people we know who are struggling, But I think that that would even be harder.

[Nick]

You know, this is a moral question, that I don't know how helpful I can be, you know, like, yeah, you know, snap decision. If I were in your shoes, I probably wouldn't.

[Jeff]

You wouldn't donate them?

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, I probably. I. I empathize with your struggle to donate them. I also, like, don't know what it's like. Clearly, you have a connection with these embryos in a way. And, you know, being a new father myself, you know, it was evident to me Natalie's ability to connect. Connect with our daughter river, as soon as she found out she was born, also connect with our, our two unborn children who she miscarried. So I imagine that you also have a connection with these embryos in ways that I, I, I, I can't. You know, to me, I'm, I just hear embryos, and I'm thinking, you got some, you know, sure. Sperm. And so I empathize with the connection I'm assuming you have, which, when you talk about them, is already kind of life like, you know, as life that deserves to have a chance at living. I, I recognize that, but at the same time, I'm not connected to that feeling that you're having. I, I can just recognize that there is a feeling that I can't relate to, you know?

[Jeff]

Yeah, I understand that. And maybe I can give a little bit more context to, like, the process of ivf. So from my perspective, when I started, I had three doctors tell me, we're not going to take you on. You're never going to get pregnant. And the reason for that is doctors have to, every trial, every round they do, they have to report whether or not it's successful. And this is publicly available information. So a lot of doctors just wouldn't touch me. The doctor we went with said that every time I did, I would have a 10% chance. Okay. So it took us a long time. My condition is I just don't have a lot of eggs, and the ones I do have aren't good quality. So by the time we got them, then it's like, you retrieve eggs and, you know, some people get 30. It's not uncommon for women to get 30. I would get one to seven every time. And then they say, like, 60 to 70% of those actually fertilizer with sperm, actually, except the sperm. And then 50% of those continue to develop appropriately, and then 50% of those make it to the stage that are now two frozen embryos are. So, yes, I have a very deep connection to them because they were such a long shot.

[Nick]

They feel like miracles.

[Jeff]

Yeah, they feel like miracles. Yeah, exactly.

[Nick]

Yeah, I get it, I get it. Yeah. It feels like a waste of a miracle.

[Jeff]

It does. Yeah. And then, you know, like, with IVF now, you can genetically test them. And so I know that they're healthy, and I also know that they're boys. Right. And so that even adds another level of connection to them.

[Nick]

So they're, they're already inseminated. They're, they're already inseminated. They're like, how does, oh, yeah.

[Jeff]

Oh, yeah.

[Nick]

Interesting.

[Jeff]

Yeah, they are fully there. Um, and, you know, I look at my kids now, and I especially my son because he was one of three healthy embryos. And I look at him and I'm like, how am I so lucky that the doctor chose you for me to have?

[Nick]

Why? Just, you know, if you don't mind me asking, why. Why have you and your husband decided to not try to do it on your own?

[Jeff]

A few reasons. One, and probably the least important is my age. Right. I'm 38, so it doesn't bother me that much, but that's pretty old to have kids.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Jeff]

Secondly, I did have complications after both initial pregnancies that required me to be hospitalized and have surgery for one. And then lastly, and I think most importantly right now, I don't know that our marriage could handle another baby. You know, obviously that could and hopefully will change. But then I'm even older when you, you.

[Nick]

And again, don't. Don't need to answer. But, like, what part concerns you about your marriage? Having more kids, like, it's more expensive in general, and there's more pressure, your health and, and how that affects, etc. Etc. Like, is it more like. Like, you know, your body goes through so much when you have kids that I, I know it. You know, when Natalie was pregnant, it's, it's. It changes that it. Dynamic of your relationship. It just does. You. You try to adjust, but like, it's, you know, it's different, you know, and different isn't always bad, but different is something you dick's energy to adjust to. Is that. I mean, are you something like that?

[Jeff]

Yeah, I think it's very similar to that. I think a large part of it right now is we both have very stressful jobs. I work from home, though, for mine, and he is in office. And so a lot of extra stuff falls on me, you know, like laundry, cleaning, all. All of that stuff falls on me because I am here. And I think one of our struggles right now is it's just being seen. For all that I am picking up and doing and really keeping this household together, sometimes it doesn't feel acknowledged, and I think that's really big battle right now, at least. And I think having another kid in the mix would only make that worse.

[Nick]

What's your husband's perspective on. On. On that? I'm sure you've communicated that.

[Jeff]

I mean, he agrees. You know, he thinks that it would be great to have a household of kids. Right.

[Nick]

No, I'm. I just mean, what's your perspective on the fact that you feel a little less appreciated than you would like to. I. I asked Is because when it, you know, I think, you know, I don't know. Marriages are hard. And I think when it comes to all relationships, I think it's very common, especially married couples, to have their. Both their own versions and reasons why. Why they think they're not as appreciated as they'd like to be. Especially when it's like two people in a relationship who want to do their part, you know?

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And are doing their version of their part, you know, because there's certainly, like, couples where you just have one deadbeat and one person doing all of it. But I'm curious. I'm guessing you've communicated this frustration to your husband, and I'm guessing he has responded with a disability. Different version. Yeah.

[Jeff]

And he is certainly not a deadbeat. He's far from it. But, you know, he very much says, I'm trying. And it's the typical male female, where his version of trying to show me is to take stuff off my plate and do it right. And so, like, he tries to do that. And I. I'm more of the perspective. I can do it. I just want to know that, you see, I'm doing it, you know, so it's not an insurmountable hurdle by any means.

[Nick]

And what is seeing how you do.

[Jeff]

It look like for you verbalizing it, you know, thanking me for taking the kids to endless doctor's appointments or for. For just doing things around the house.

[Nick]

Okay. How often?

[Jeff]

Weekly.

[Nick]

Like, I know this sounds kind of.

[Anya]

Yeah.

[Nick]

That I think the challenge. You know, the challenge I've just found. And I only have a year into a marriage, I just found that, like, I think when you're on the receiving end of feeling like, man, I just could love a pat on the back here, you know? Know, I'd love a. An atta boy. But I guess, put it this way, there are times I. I know I do a lot. I know Natalie does a lot. I know Natalie knows I do a lot, you know, but there are times where I'm, you know, I guess I can feel a little like, you know, you first start dating, right. And. And then, you know, you're. I'm sure you maybe was your husband at some point you first started dating, and you're like, I'm thirsty. And he's like, let me go get you a glass of water. And you're like, oh, my God, that was so sweet. Like, oh, my God, like, wow. Like him in the Carter. And, you know, and then, you know, not too long later, you're like, I'm thirsty. And you expected him to get you a glass of water. You know, and often the things we do early in a relationship, that we do, especially if you're an act of service person, you know, if you show love through your acts of service, those quickly start feeling like, when did my act of love turn into my job? But when you're on the other side, the of. Of it, you're like, how do I have to thank you every time? Like. Like every. Like, I. I guess, Sure. I mean, I will. I am grateful, but, like, no, for sure. Thank you once again for doing the laundry. Thank you for picking up the kids. Thank you for making the lunches for the kids. You know, on the flip side, you know, like, I. And I'm sure you have. I'm sure you have thanked him for his hard work at work or whatever, but I'm guessing you also don't do it every day. You know, I'm guessing there's a part that you take the he does every day is like, I don't know. Like, it's what you do, man. Like, you. It's your job, you know? You know, as opposed to, you know. And you get what I'm saying? And I think married couples absolutely have their own version of like, I just would like to know. I just. I would do it anyways, but I just want. I do want to feel like this isn't my job, and I do want to feel like this is an act of. Of love. And I think often it's very easy for both parties to feel that while not recognizing what the other, you know, kind of is asking if I'm. If that's making sense.

[Jeff]

Yep, you are exactly right. Yeah, you're exactly right.

[Nick]

So how do you guys find that middle ground?

[Jeff]

That's what we're working on. I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to get better at vocalizing, like, when I need acknowledgment, you know, so, like this weekend, for example, both kids were just screaming for me in the car, only wanted me, me. And I just looked at him and I was like, I need your help right now. Like, can you step in and help me? I'm trying to get better at that and then thanking him when that happens. And I think he is getting much better at thanking me. But right now, it still. It feels forced, informal, and just awkward.

[Nick]

That's what I'm kind of saying. It's just like that, because it. Sure it is. You know, it is. It is forced. It literally is forced. And it's Like, I do think there's a part on both parties to just to know it's an act of love in a way. I don't know. I don't even have the answer because I think every couple, I think Natalie and I experience that sometimes where it's just like we both want to feel appreciated and we both have different reasons in different times in which, you know, it's more like. I think it's less about feeling appreciated and more about, like, not feeling like you're being taken for granted.

[Jeff]

Absolutely.

[Nick]

You know.

[Jeff]

Yes, that's exactly right.

[Nick]

And.

[Jeff]

But when you add kids in the mix, that feeling of being taken for granted seems to intensify, I reckon.

[Nick]

Eyes, especially now. Like, River's bond with Natalie is amazing and awesome, and I know Natalie loves it and it's great, but it also is like river constantly calling for Natalie constantly. And it's just like, that can get draining. And that is an aspect that I think, you know, I have to get better at, at recognizing that too, because, like, at first I'm just like, you're, you know, the part of me is kind of envious of. Of that bond that she has with Natalie. In a way, it's like, wow, like, he never calls for me like that, you know, and so it's a. It's a. It's a. It's a challenge because you both have to, on some level, if you, you know, to. Even if it feels forced to know that he is taking the time because he knows it's important to you, and his willingness to thank you, even if you have to, even if it feels forced and awkward, is to. To say, I'm just recognizing that you are doing something. Your day to day is so hectic and you guys are just getting, you know, not like, you know, but like every day, you know, even for me, Natalie, we're very two privileged people right now, but our lives are no less hectic, you know, I mean, I mean, every day, you know, I don't. Like last night, I definitely was, you know, now he's like, can you help me make the bed? You know, And I'm thinking, all right, sure, totally. Let's go. Let's go. And I'm thinking, I have not my. Like, I don't. I wake up at 6:30, 15. I get river out of bed. I play with river before I have to go to work, and I don't. And then I don't. I don't get to like, rest my eyes until 10:30 at night when I go to bed. Like that's my life.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I love my life, and it's an amazing life and I feel very lucky to have my life. And it's crazy, but, like, I had a lot more free time before I have to ask permission to work out. Not, I mean, I don't have to ask permission, but I, you know, I'm like, hey, is it okay if I go for a run? Because I don't want to, like, leave Nat an abandoned, you know, because I'm just making. I'm, you know, like, you know, and she. She doesn't even have time to sneak out and go for, you know, do her, you know, self care or time. It's, you know, so it's a lot.

[Jeff]

Yeah. And so for me, it's just like if we both have these feelings, right? Because we both kind of feel like we're falling short. We are in couples therapy, and that's what we've kind of identified is we both feel like we're falling short in terms of being enough for each other right now just because it is so chaotic to have two toddlers. And I don't know, knowing that we both have that, that deep underlying feeling, the thought of adding one or two more kids to the mix just terrifies me. Like, I love my children. I wouldn't trade them for the world, obviously, but at the same time, I don't want, I don't want to do irreparable damage where there's already a lot of hurt.

[Nick]

It makes sense. Well, I mean, for the reason you first called in, I mean, it seems a little hasty. I think there's a reason why you and your husband are having a time, hard, hard time signing these documents to release these embryos to someone else. And I think you should follow your intuition for the time being. That would be my thing. I would hate for you guys six months later to regret doing that. And then the resentment that both of you could feel like wondering, did you guys who. Whose fault was it? Was it more you who encouraged the other person to sign the document, or was it him who, you know, who encouraged you? You know, and you guys could have revisionist history about that time, and then someone could resent the other person. You both could resent each other. I, you know, I understand all the reasons why you want to pay homage to these miracle embryos and not waste it, but, like, if we're worried about potential stresses we could put on your marriage, I, I feel like right now is not the time to do that. And I would channel this energy, energy that you're you're investing in what to do with these embryos into like, you know, this, this, your marriage and, and you guys figuring that out. But like, you, you know, you. You mentioned guys in couples therapy. You both recognize there's a lot of hurt on both sides, but I, I guess on some level there is a little bit of both of you, I'm guessing, having to get over yourselves and. A little bit. A little bit. A little bit, you know. You know, because I, I do know that when. When there are times where I might feel a little underappreciated, right or wrong, but I. There. I know that there's. I. I could say that. And now's initial response will. To. Will be to. To. It'll. It. It won't trigger her to say you're right, you know, it'll. It'll trigger her. Her to recognize how she's not feeling appreciated. And that's kind of a product of a marriage. So there is a part of us for both to just trust that like, this person is here, this person is showing up, this person is doing their part. Maybe not perfectly, maybe they could do more, but they. This is this, this whole thing of, you know, put yourself in your shoes. Right. You do what you do for your marriage, for your husband, for yourself. Sure. But honestly, you probably feel like a lot of what you. You do isn't for, you know, it's like for everyone else but you. I bet your husband feels exactly the same, you know.

[Jeff]

Yes.

[Nick]

So. So you both have to give each other the grace that you are doing. Thing. You know, you. If you both feel like most of your energy is to take care of everyone but yourself, then you both have to give the other person a grace to recognize that. To that, you know, whether. Whether it's. Whether it happens every week is in the form of a verbal thank you, you know, because maybe your love language is words of affirmation, you know, I'm guessing. And you. It's nice to hear it from time to time. And I'm not saying he can't do a better job of vocalizing that, but there is an element that you both have to recognize that, like, he makes sacrifices, just like I make sacrifices. And I just. I have to see those sacrifices as an act of love rather than telling myself the only way I can receive that act of love is through hearing it at a time which I deem appropriate.

[Jeff]

You're right. And you actually said this earlier. My, My love language is actually acts of service, but it's very similar to what you said where it's like it became his job, right? It became an expectation. It no longer became a way of him showing love. And so you're. You're absolutely right.

[Nick]

And I can tell you that as someone who likes to show love through acts of service, when it's. When it becomes my job, it's no longer love. It's just something I have to do. And it's a fine line. So I mean, what, you know, talk. You talk about being forced or whatever, but I think the situation you describe, maybe you guys, you know, every. I don't know if you guys do date nights, if you have time for it and let, And. And when couples, like, schedule dates, nights, sometimes it's for sex, some for romance or just that connection. But maybe for you guys, it could just be taking five minutes to just recognize all you have done for, for each other, even if it is quote unquote forced. Just be like, you know, hey, like, look, can we just take a moment and, and just recognize what we've done for each other and, and kind of just acknowledge our mutual appreciation and then give each other the recognition they deserve to say, I'm really proud of you and you're working really hard. It's just like, I think in marriages and like, listen, like, we always focus on the negative, right? You're constantly, I'm sure every day being like, there's, why can't he do this? Or he did this? Oh, you know, like an eye roll here, a sigh there, and he's doing the exact same thing to you. Right? You know, to himself. But, like, how often are both of you being like, he did this? He, wow, he's at him right now. He's at work, and he's just. Who knows what he's doing for us right now? And thank you. You know, and it's like, we don't do, do that often. You know, I think there's a million things every day that we could choose to compliment our partners, but we're so focused on what we're not getting or not receiving and what we're not doing and yada, yada, yada. And I think every person in a relationship feels like they get criticized 10 times more than they get complimented. And I think you're right if, if couples are meant to carve out time for romance and intimacy and things like that, maybe you guys can carve out time to, to show that gratitude to each other and just say, you know, if I haven't said it enough, I do want you to know I'm really proud of you. And I'm. I'm grateful for you, and you do a lot, and then hopefully, you know, you, the other person's like. And also, yes, like, you do do a lot. And I am grateful. And I, I, I'm so glad. I am. I'm. I have you by my side and, you know, you know, and not. And it's not the time for. If you could do more, you know, and I, I don't know. And then just appreciate that rather than saying, well, I wish we didn't have to carve out time to do that. You know, it's just like, you can. At some point, you guys both have to try to see the good rather than see the bad. And right now it's a lot of, like, what you, you what, as individuals, what you guys feel like you're not getting.

[Jeff]

I like that idea a lot. You know, it's like this week we were in one of our pits where it's, he's not doing this, she's not doing this kind of thing. And then yesterday it started to get a little bit better, and then something happens with the kids, and it was all on me again, and we kind of just digressed right back to it, you know, So. I like that idea.

[Nick]

Yeah. It sounds like you're both doing your best. You're just having a hard time showing it to each other. And I think there has to be a little bit of level of grace you guys give each other and trust that you're both doing your best. As imperfect as it might be, it's not from a lack of effort. It's not from a lack of trying or giving a shit. It's just like, you guys have chosen a lifestyle that, that's hard. It. It comes with a lot of rewards and blessings and purposes in life. You know, it's just like, before I had, you know, after I had my kid, it was like, what was really the point of everything? Everything else just feel stupid, you know, like, what was the point? I was just like, I just, I didn't, like, really, what was the point? Now I have way more purpose. That purpose is a lot of work. And that purpose, like, doesn't allow me to be selfish or think about what I want to do. And I have to like all that stuff, you know? And so you guys are not giving each other enough grace, and your individual selves are. Are. And I guess a little bit of ego is. Is. Is wanting a little bit of that recognition because of how hard it is, you know? Yeah.

[Jeff]

No, I think you're exactly right. Thank you. That's really good perspective. And what triggered all this is a friend actually approached us to see if. If we would be willing to donate to her. And so that kind of spurred this whole conversation and kind of brought us down this path of, like, look, our marriage isn't where we want it to be. Yeah. And this was really great perspective.

[Nick]

All right, well, hopefully it's helpful. You're not ready to give up on this.

[Jeff]

No, you're right. I'm very attached to them.

[Nick]

I mean, not any surrogacy. You know, like, even if it was something your body couldn't handle, like, you know, I don't think you should give up on your rights to have having this child on your guys's own yet. Maybe in the future you guys decide to do that. I don't know, but I'm. I think it would call more emotional stress than you guys need or appreciate right now. But, yeah, hopefully, you're probably right. Hopefully this is helpful, and hopefully you guys can work on this, but you guys have to give each other some grace. For sure.

[Jeff]

I'll certainly work on it. Thanks, Nick. I really appreciate it.

[Nick]

All right, well, keep me posted. I would love to follow this journey and see how this goes and. And both with. With the embryos and in your marriage. So I'd love to.

[Jeff]

Absolutely.

[Nick]

I'd love an update in the future.

[Jeff]

Absolutely. Thank you.

[Nick]

Well, take care.

[Jeff]

You too.

[Emily]

All right.

[Nick]

Bye. Bye. Bye.