← The Viall Files
The Viall Files
E965 Ask Nick - Do I Believe My Husband Or My Best Friend?
01:37:59
Our first caller’s husband’s ex wants cheerleading to be off-limits for her daughter. Our second caller is stuck between her husband and her best friend and doesn’t know which side to choose. And, our third caller is debating if she should wait...
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- [00:00]
Nick
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- [00:20]
Jessica
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- [00:45]
Nick
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- [01:07]
Jessica
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- [01:37]
Jen
You're crazy.
- [01:49]
Nick
How's it going?
- [01:50]
Caller 1
Hi Nick, My name is Jen. I'm 36 and my husband's ex wife says cheerleading is off limits for my daughter. So do I tell my daughter? No.
- [02:01]
Nick
Is it your biological daughter or.
- [02:05]
Caller 1
So it's my biological daughter, yes.
- [02:07]
Nick
And why does her opinion matter?
- [02:10]
Caller 1
So my husband has a daughter and so she's my stepdaughter. Our daughters are the same age.
- [02:17]
Nick
Okay.
- [02:18]
Caller 1
And we've been together now for four years. We just got married about two months ago. And since the beginning it's always been kind of like I don't know if it's his ex wife who, like, has an issue with my daughter, or if it's like her daughter is having, like, jealousy, his daughter's having jealousy issues or whatever the case may be. Right. Blending families can be very complicated. So, like, I understand that aspect of it, but whenever my daughter has shown any interest in anything that, like, his daughters are doing or wants to be a part of it or any type of, like, having both, like, kids being in any activity together, it's been just a huge toxic fight. She's been pretty toxic since the very beginning. She said. She's said horrible things about my daughter has, you know, and I think to some extent, I think part of it is, like, insecurities from her daughter's, you know, the issues with blending families. But in this particular situation, things were really good. We had taken the kids to Disney World for a honeymoon, and his daughter and my daughter got along great. We had a few hiccups and stuff, but mostly probably because they're tired from long days and, you know, walking and waiting in lines in the park and stuff like that. But things were really good. So when we got back, we had signed them both. Well, she was signed up for flag football. My husband coaches football. And so my daughter got really interested in doing it too. So we joined the same organization again. At that time, like, things with our daughters were great. And so there started being issues of, like, as soon as we got there, my stepdaughter bullying my daughter, and her teammate's calling her out on it, which was great. You know, hey, don't do that. Don't treat her like that. Like, why are you doing that to her? And then when we got back from vacation, that was the same thing. Now that flag football is over, it turns into a cheer program, cheerleading program, along with, like, tackle football. So it's like an organization that, you know, on there in the fall, they'll do both. And so my daughter had said she wants to be a part of it. She's a gymnast. So she. She's been taking gymnastics for almost four years now. And so she's like, oh, I want to do this, you know, and be with my stepdaughter in the program. Well, when his ex wife found out, she just lost it and, you know, started once again creating this huge toxic environment, texting us awful things. It really sucks because it also impacts my husband's visitation. So when things like this, when his ex wife doesn't get her way or she feels like we're intruding or invading her space or whatever, she begins to start Withholding the kids. So he has two daughters. One's just turned 16 this year and he hasn't seen her in a very long time because.
- [05:21]
Nick
Does she have kind of what custody? They don't share custody.
- [05:25]
Jen
So they do.
- [05:25]
Caller 1
They share custody, but she, but she says you can't force her to go, and I'm not going to force her to go. And so he doesn't even get to see his oldest, which has been really hard.
- [05:35]
Nick
How old is his oldest?
- [05:37]
Caller 1
She's 16.
- [05:38]
Nick
I don't, you know, I definitely don't understand the legal aspects of, of, of the stuff, but is she actually correct in terms of forcing her to go if he has joint custody? I understand teenagers can be teenagers, but he does have the right to, to see her child. And I'm assuming she's saying that and he's just like, I'm guessing he just doesn't want to get authorities involved and letting his ex wife win, so to speak. Because, like, doesn't he have the right to do that? I'm assuming. Because I'm assuming in a lot of these situations, I'm sure your family dynamic isn't the only one where exes are at odds and they use their kids to fight their battles and manipulate their kids to feel a certain way about mom or dad. But yeah, yeah. So, I mean, back to your original question. Is your, your reasoning for considering not allowing your daughter to do cheer is a way to like bring the family together?
- [06:43]
Caller 1
I honestly think that whether I do it, whether I don't, like she's always going to hate me and being in her space and stuff like that is, or just the fact that my daughter wants to do anything that their kid, her kids want to do is an issue for her. And my husband, he, I think he's so stuck in the middle and I'm, I, you know, it's hard for him because I mean, I don't want to tell my kid. No, he doesn't want my kid to not to miss out on things that she's interested in and wants to do. But at the same time, it's at the expense of his mental health. Right. Because he has to now deal with the harassing text messages, the name calling, the just bullying from, you know, his ex wife.
- [07:26]
Nick
His ex wife is literally saying, you can't let, let's call your daughter Sarah. She's saying Sarah can't cheer. Like, you need to not let Sarah cheer.
- [07:39]
Caller 1
Yeah, that's exactly what she's saying. Because to her that's their daughter's thing. And that's their cheerleading organization and they were there first. They don't want us to be a part of it. They don't want Sarah there.
- [07:53]
Nick
And I mean, like, what was the context of their divorce? Did he like, leave her? Did he cheat on her? Like, why she. Is she, she sounds pretty bitter.
- [08:03]
Caller 1
Yeah, I honestly think that she wanted to have a fling, so she, she started a relationship with somebody else. And I think she wanted a fling and eventually go back to him. And I think that that backfired on her because when he, because he, they had separated and she, they lived in his mom's house, so when they split, they all still lived together. And then I think when she started actively pursuing this relationship with this other person, he was just kind of like, my heart breaks every time I hear you on the phone with him. I can't be in this house when you're literally in a relationship with somebody else. So I want out. So he left his own mom's house. Granted, the mom doesn't live there anymore. Like, that's like a second home. And he's, they've been living in there. So she started this relationship with this other man and from day one, she's kind of been shovel, shoving this man into like her kid's mind as replacement dad.
- [09:06]
Nick
So is he still in the picture? My husband or this other dude?
- [09:09]
Caller 1
Her new husband? Yeah, that's her new husband.
- [09:11]
Nick
Okay.
- [09:12]
Caller 1
But they eventually got married.
- [09:14]
Nick
But initially she cheated on your husband with this guy?
- [09:18]
Caller 1
Essentially, yes. So she, yeah, so she basically started the relationship, started talking to him while they were still together. Yeah.
- [09:24]
Nick
Okay, well, listen, I, I, this is a terrible situation for your husband. And I empathize for his situation. And I'm sorry that his relationship with his, his, his daughters is, is as strained as it is, but in no way can he make that your daughter's problem. Yeah, it's just, it's a, it's a non starter. Obviously don't know enough about their history to have like thoughtful opinions about a situation, but he kind of needs to man up and deal with his shit, so to speak. And clearly this is a person, his ex wife, who feels empowered to continue to manipulate and shame him because it seems to work, you know, when it comes to this type of behavior. Bullies, bully until you stand up to the bully. You know, you not allowing your daughter to do cheer would be the absolute worst thing he could do because it's only going to empower her more. To be more of a bully at the cost of your daughter's childhood and her Dreams and her ability to do what she wants. You have to make sure that you're not playing the same game as his ex wife is doing. You know, consciously, subconsciously, like you can, you know, I'm not saying you're doing it, but just make sure you're, you and your daughter are not convincing yourselves that you want to do the things that his waters do because it's like you tell yourself, well we have every right to do it. Two, knowing that they're going to have a problem with it. But you, you know, but you kind of want to win. And I'm not saying that's happening, but you should need, you need to be mindful that you're not doing that right. So. But if, if this is something your daughter truly wants to do, in no way should you not, should you give this woman the right to dictate what your daughter does. It's that simple. You need to just get on the same page with your husband and you guys need to be a team about this and you need to empathize with his situation and say I'm so sorry you're going through this. And when it comes to his daughters, I mean it's going to sound cliche and I've said this, you know, often, but he, this is like a lead with love situation. Yeah, there's a lot of shitty parents out there and there's a lot of manipulative parents out there who sadly use their kids and is a weapon to get back at their partners. And moms often have very influential relationships with their kids as you know, kind of a. Often like considered the primary caretaker, you know, not, not always, you know, and it's sad that if this woman is doing that, but the, his daughter will eventually be an adult. She's only 16 now and she will remember, you know, like if you're. I really, I firmly believe that if your husband leads with love and doesn't allow his ex wife to win, and by win I mean like play her game, stoop to her level, fight fire with fire. You know, she wants to say and do nasty things to him so he, she can get him to say and do nasty things back to her and then she can go to her kids and say, see, see what your father said about me? See what he did, yada yada. He can't give her that power. He's got to try, as difficult as it is to ignore that and in any way he can connect with his children, reach out to his children, write them letters, go out of his way to fight to have a relationship with his daughters because he has a right to do that. And if his kids say, I don't want to be there, or, you know, and, and then he's going to have to respect that and then find ways to get through to them. At some point in these, in his daughter's lives, they're going to need and want a dad. This, this replacement dad. You know, this is a toxic woman you're describing. And, and that usually shows itself. And at some point in his daughter's lives, if he is and acts to be the. The emotional, mature person, the loving, caring person, the person who, despite all their mother's toxicity, chose to lead with love, they will eventually see that. I don't know when, you know, but they're going to need that type of person in their life. So he should invest in that type of behavior now. And that, you know, it's. This is not a great answer. It's not, you know, it certainly doesn't fix the problem today or tomorrow, but what he can't do is stoop to her level and give her ammunition.
- [13:43]
Caller 1
His biggest issue. Yeah. His biggest issue is that he, he has to. He has to wait until they come to that, you know, finally get that independence from their mom.
- [13:53]
Nick
Yeah.
- [13:53]
Caller 1
To make those decisions on their own. How old your husband him is having to. He's 36. Like mine, my age.
- [13:59]
Nick
He's young, as you know.
- [14:02]
Caller 1
Yeah.
- [14:02]
Nick
You know, that's a bless. You know. But let's listen. Every situation is different. There's pros and cons. I didn't become a father until I was 40s. I, you know, I, I knock on wood. I feel very blessed to have the relationship I have with Natalie and, and. And his mother of my child. I'm just saying, for all the people who maybe didn't start a family into their 40s and realize that the person they had a child with ended up being a toxic, miserable person. And then when they were 16, they're 56, which is still relatively young. If they're taking care of themselves, like, they could. They would. Could have a harder time playing the long game because it's like, oh, I'm this old. Your husband's only 36 years old, right? His.
- [14:42]
Caller 1
Yeah, but it's milestones, Nick. The milestones.
- [14:44]
Nick
I get it. I get it. But there's not going to be.
- [14:46]
Caller 1
At the high school graduation. He knows he's not going to be.
- [14:48]
Nick
That's, that's. That's like. What do you mean he's not going to be at a high School graduation. He might not be at the high school graduation party. That, that. The school. That, that. What are you. He can go to the graduation.
- [15:00]
Caller 1
They even let her add her husband, who wasn't her husband at the time, his last name, to their kids at school saying, oh, well, they can name themselves Darth Vader. And it doesn't matter. I can't force them to write their real name.
- [15:14]
Nick
And yeah, I understand that's hurtful, but he can still be there. But, yeah, he can still be there. He can go to their games. Yeah, he might not be treated like their dad, and that's shitty, and that's going to be hard to swallow. But what I'm saying is he has to be the bigger person here. He has to show up to the graduation and take his pictures and make himself available if they want to take advantage of their father being there. And if not, he can still say he was there. You know, he can still enjoy that moment. So when his daughters grow up and need their dad and realize and wake up to see their mom's toxicity, like, they will know dad was always there. If dad chooses to let mom win and just out of spite, not show up and then be like, well, she didn't want me there. They didn't want me there. And, like, again, he's got to understand that his kids are being manipulated by their mother, and so he can't be hurt by their kids and don't blame the kids for what their mother is doing, you know, so he's got to show up. He's got to swallow his pride. He's got to be there for those moments. He can sit, you know, not gonna. You can sit in the stands and watch their cheerleading competitions and watch their soccer games or whatever, or concerts or whatever things they participate in, he can be there. Whether he is welcomed by them or not, he can be there and he can take photographs and he can make an album of all his memories of. Of that he even wasn't invited to. So when his daughters show up and. And say, hey, you know, and they seek a relationship with their father, whether that's two years from now or five years from now or 10 years from now, he will be able to say, I was always there.
- [16:53]
Caller 1
It's funny you say that, because for her 16th birthday, that's what he made her. He made her an album of all their pictures that he's ever had, like, with him and the older daughter and wrote her a letter and, you know, dropped it off. And that was like, the gift he gave her for. For her 16th birthday and didn't get a response. But he, he wasn't expecting one.
- [17:13]
Nick
I think more than anything, he still writes. He can still write her a letter on her birthdays. He could write, you know, he can, he can, you know, he can do things and he's just gotta. He has to swallow his pride and he's got to play the long game. And in the meantime, he cannot punish your daughter for the toxicity of his ex wife.
- [17:30]
Caller 1
Yes, definitely. Which is what I agree. I don't. I think I already knew that. But at the same time, it's like, I don't want to push my stepdaughter further away. I don't want to, like, you're not.
- [17:42]
Nick
Pushing her away yet. It's. It's the mom, right? Again, you check yourself, make sure you're not doing things to instigate. Okay. Yeah, but if your daughter wants to do things, she has the right to do things. And she has to look the other way and turn the other cheek when, you know, if, if, if his daughters are bullying your daughter, you know, it's like she has to, you know, she can help be the bigger person, which is not fair to her either. But, you know, you guys got to try to lead with love. If you do the right thing, it eventually will pay off. You know, the right. It's hard to do the right thing often because the right thing usually doesn't pay off into the long run. And it's all usually, often doing the shortcut isn't the right thing, but it gives you that sense of instant gratification. But it's often costly in the future.
- [18:35]
Caller 1
Right.
- [18:36]
Nick
You know, so you and your husband really need to come together and say, hey, you know, this sucks. It sucks for you as a father, it sucks for me as your new wife. And I certainly didn't want to sign up for this. It sucks for my daughter. But we can get through this together. But what we have to do is not let this woman win. And by letting her win is to play her game. We have to be above her. We have to, you know, smile and, and still be there for your daughters. And even if they don't, from afar, you know, and if you guys can stay consistent, I. Someday it'll pay off. It just will. Because someday these girls are going to wake up and see their mother for who she is. My, My first, my. One of my first relationships with was their mom. I didn't realize she did not have a relationship with her father. And the narrator, the version I heard was he was a deadbeat loser dad. Turns out her mom was the problem. Her mom was controlling and vindictive and painted this picture of her daughter to her daughters and their daughter. She had this idea of who her biological father was. And you know, she was like my mom, you know, her new husband was like, that's my dad. And he was a good guy too. But like it was all based off the mom. And while, you know, sure as when she got 18 or 19, she, you know, toxic people can help be toxic. This woman is going to blow up her life, I promise you. And when she blows up her life, he's got to be there, ready to be the dad that he's always wanted to be. Because he was the. And again, without. He's got to be the bigger person. You know, it's just I was always, you know, and you got to be the bigger person. If she is as bad as you are describing, it'll catch up with her. It just, it will, it's as bad.
- [20:22]
Caller 1
As I'm describing, but possibly worse. But I mean, I've done the, I've done the self like inventory of like. Okay, am I doing like the sincerity check, right? Am I doing this just to be petty or am I doing this because I'm doubling down that you can't tell me where I can and cannot go, but at the same time, like, it's literally walking distance from my house. Yeah, I've. The people who are running the organization are people I went to high school with. Like this. We have friends in the, in the program. He has co workers in the program. Like I, I know that like, sincerely, like, if my daughter actually wants to do it, like, that's gonna be what I'm gonna go with. Like, but I just, I'm, I'm really dreading the like anxiety that comes with it. Even his. I think they go to therapy and stuff like that and the therapist is just like, well, can't you just go somewhere else? And I'm like, well, yeah, we can probably, but it's like down the street from my house.
- [21:13]
Nick
Well, again, you'll have to go like 10 miles away. Well, again, you'll have to decide that. I mean, there again, if there are opportunities to avo, to still give your daughter the experience she wants, the opportunity to compete in a sport or cheer or whatever it is. Yeah, that's all that matters. If your daughter has friends in this group that she wants to experience these memories with, she has a right to do that. But if all things being equal, the only difference is a 10 minute drive and the principle of it, then that's the sacrament then. Yeah, then, then make the goddamn drive. You know, and that's where you, that's where you and your husband and your daughter have to ask yourself, you know, is it really worth it? Type of thing. So you know, I don't know the details of your community or how all things work, but like again, you shouldn't be asking your daughter to sacrifice her friends experiences she wants and, but the principle of things, the convenience of, well, it's 10 minutes down the road. That's where you can check yourself and you can avoid drama.
- [22:18]
Caller 1
Yeah.
- [22:19]
Nick
But you shouldn't be going to your daughter and asking her to make sacrifices for his toxic ex wife.
- [22:25]
Caller 1
Absolutely. Thank you, Nick.
- [22:28]
Nick
All right, well, good luck. I mean, keep me posted. Terrible situation. But you're, you know this, you're not alone in this and I, I promise you it'll catch up with her. And you just want to be you. You want to make sure you, you when, when his daughters need a, a non toxic parent that they have one available to them. What you don't want is to be like, well, my mom sucks, but so does my dad because all they have seen is mom and dad be toxic to each other and they've seen dad stoop to mom's level so that as young children they really can't see the difference. Yeah, because kids don't know the origin stories of their parents toxicity, you know.
- [23:11]
Caller 1
Yeah, definitely.
- [23:13]
Nick
Okay.
- [23:15]
Caller 1
All right, thank you.
- [23:16]
Nick
All right, well, good luck. Take care.
- [23:18]
Caller 1
Thanks, you too.
- [23:19]
Nick
All right, bye. Bye.
- [23:22]
Jessica
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- [24:33]
Nick
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- [26:04]
Jessica
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- [26:23]
Nick
Yeah, we all hate it when we have a drink and we have the belches. It's never fun, especially on dates. You know, no one likes a burper. It's childish people.
- [26:31]
Jessica
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- [27:10]
Nick
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- [27:43]
Jen
Hi, my name's Jessica. I'm 29 and I'm stuck between my best friend and my husband and I don't know which side to choose.
- [27:49]
Nick
Okay, well tell me why you're considering not taking your husband's side.
- [27:55]
Jen
So. My husband is a wonderful person. We've been together for five and a half years and almost like married for almost a year. And I think he obviously loves me very much and I love him back. I think that he tends to be very similar to your demeanor where he, you know, is like very blunt, very direct, like kind of is like cut and dry, black and white. And I tend to be a little bit more like fluid in certain situations, especially when it comes to my friends. So I think sometimes I tend to be a little too lenient. And so I just want to make sure that, you know, what I'm thinking in this whole situation is correct and that, you know, just kind of getting a second opinion on that.
- [28:38]
Nick
Okay, so tell me what's going on with your friend that you in. Well, so it sounds like your husband has a very definitive opinion about your friend and you're. And you're on the fence.
- [28:48]
Jen
Yes, yeah, I'm on the fence. And obviously like take his advice into account on almost everything. But when it comes to my friends, I just kind of want to make sure instead of having a blind spot when it comes to my husband, I want to make sure that I'm being fair. So basically to give you some background, so I've been friends with this person as long as I've been together with my husband. So we actually met through him. So he and her her were best friends in high school. They've known each other for most of their lives. And basically he introduced us saying that okay, you have, you know, a lot of different things in common. And so, you know, I think that you guys would get along well. So we did a lot of like double dates with her and her now ex husband. The four of us would hang out, we'd all go, you know, together to different dinners, concerts, etc. Etc. So she and I started traveling together. We just, you know, became really close. Her friends became my friends. It was a whole like very close knit group of people. So this past year, well, I guess backing up a little bit. So they actually got married in 2023. So her, and it was her boyfriend at the time when my husband and I first met and were dating and they had already been together two years and then kind of, you know, progressing into all of our friendships. They, they got married in November a couple of years ago and, and when they got married, I was the maid of honor in her wedding and then vice versa. I got engaged and married this past fall. And so she was the maid of honor in my wedding. So in January, I guess, ish timeframe, probably January, February of this year, she let us know that her and her husband were getting divorced. And we actually found out through a friend of ours. So it wasn't even like her that had told me. It was like, oh, such and such is going through a really hard time. Like, you know, I think she's going to be getting a divorce from her husband. And you know, we were all really shocked because it's A lot of, you know, like, we had hung out a lot. We talked to both of them very frequently, and it didn't seem like there were any problems. So then it was probably a month later she kind of stopped, like, showing up to things, stopped, like, talking to a lot of our, like, group of friends. And she sent us a text completely out of the blue in a group chat. Hey, I'm divorcing my husband. Like, I don't want to talk about it. Please don't ask any questions. This is kind of what's going on. And I was like, okay. So as you can tell, it's, like, really shocking, but kind of through that whole process, like, we find out more information, right? So, of course, things kind of, like, come out as time goes on and everything seems really suspicious, for lack of a better term. Like, it just kind of seems like we didn't know all the information from the beginning. So it kind of became a situation where she started saying things here and there and was, like, making comments about that would, like, lead us to believe that there potentially was another person. Like, I talked with her, and she seemed obviously completely heartbroken at the time and was like, like, you know, it's just not working now. We just don't see eye to eye. Like. And I was like, well, you've been together for, you know, close to eight years at this point, and, like, you got married, you know, a year and a half ago. Like, what has this always been happening? Like, what is going on? She was like, yeah, well, I thought that getting married would fix it, which I don't always believe that's the case. Like, I feel like people sometimes think that getting married is going to. Yeah, right. Like, people think that marriage is going to fix their problems. And I'm of the belief that obviously, like, you're. You're marrying someone for a reason, but you try to, like, suss that out beforehand.
- [32:05]
Nick
I mean, people who. People who think marriage is going to fix their problem are the problem.
- [32:09]
Jen
Really? Yeah. So. So they're like. She was like, yeah, I thought that marriage was going to fix my problem. And what was her problem just was really shocking to me. And so I was like, okay, so.
- [32:18]
Nick
Just to clarify, you heard rumors, rumblings that there might be another person in the picture on her end, like, that she might have.
- [32:26]
Jen
Not necessarily heard rumblings, but more just like, I was kind of like, well, it doesn't seem like there's another option. Right? Like, I've been around with them. Like, there were never any problems that they talked to us about. Which, of course, like, I mean, they're probably not going to broadcast their marriage to all their friends, but it's like, there were never really any problems. They seem good. Like, it wasn't, you know, like, an abusive situation. They weren't fighting all the time. Like, there was nothing that really was, like, red flags. Oh, yeah. You know, they may be getting divorced. Like, so it was kind of weird. And then, like, basically I was, you know, kind of talking to her about it, and I was like, so, you know, how are you feeling about this whole situation? Her main concern wasn't like, oh, I'm really sad, you know, I'm getting divorced, blah, blah, blah. It was like, oh, if I delete all the pictures of my husband on social media, someone's gonna think I cheated. And I was like, well, that's a weird take to have. So that was kind of weird. And then, like, we were, you know, she was talking about, like, getting a new apartment and, like, was concerned because she's gonna be, like, living closer to family. And she was like, well, what if my family just, like, barges in and I have, like, people there? And I was like, sure, but, like, shouldn't you be concerned about, like, getting furniture and, like, moving out and, like, taking your dog and worried about how the divorce is going to go and your paperwork and, like, these things? It just seemed a little weird.
- [33:37]
Nick
So I guess. What. What's your husband's opinion on this?
- [33:41]
Jen
So my husband and the ex husband are close friends, so they share, like, really similar taste in music. They're, you know, they play video games together. They're really into the same sports, blah, blah, whatever. So they all. They hang out, like, all the time. And so he, the ex husband, actually came over to our house and was kind of giving us his side of the story and, like, seemed completely blindsided by everything.
- [34:04]
Caller 2
Like, for.
- [34:05]
Jen
For lack of a better phrase. He was like, I don't know what happened. We never talked about it. We never went to therapy. Like, this was brought up to me once or twice, but I didn't know that it was an issue to get divorced over. And so I was pretty.
- [34:18]
Nick
You know, she was like, I'm generally just not happy or type of stuff.
- [34:22]
Jen
Yeah. So it seems like they weren't connected. It seems like they weren't connected physically, and that was, like, a problem. It seems like they just weren't on the same page about a lot of things.
- [34:32]
Nick
Okay.
- [34:33]
Jen
Yeah. So it seems like they just weren't on the same page about a lot of things. And so how old are They, I think that like late 20s, they're basically the same age that I am, so 28, 29.
- [34:42]
Nick
All right, and what's. Your husband's known this woman for a long time? Was good friends with her. What's his opinion of her character?
- [34:50]
Jen
Yeah, so they tend to butt heads a lot. My, My husband has very strong opinions and you know, I think that he, you know, tends to say what he think thinks and they've gotten into like just, you know, dumb disagreements in the past. And so they're both like very, they're both very strong headed. And so he had a really close relationship with her, I guess like growing up in like in, in high school. But then kind of as time went on and as things kind of like happened in her and I's friendship, like, I think he's more of the mindset of like, I don't think that she's a good person for the way that she's one, handling this and then two for you know, the way that like, like she's treated me in certain scenarios and like it kind of came out after the fact too that like, you know, her being the maid of honor in my wedding, like, we found out that like she didn't treat like our family well, she didn't treat other people in the wedding well. She like, was really like rude and condescending and like, was really selfish in a lot of it. And we didn't find out until like the last like couple of months. So I think like his idea of her character is dwindling. I don't think that he's like, be with her and he basically like, the whole reason why I ended up like kind of wanting to get a third, you know, opinion on this situation is that like there was one day that completely out of the blue he decided to like unfollow her on Instagram and like unfriend her on Facebook, which like, not a big deal. Right. So it was because like her, him and her ex husband were going to different events and still hanging out and doing all these things. And like he could see that like she was like, like watching his stories and like liking his posts and like doing all these things. But like she would text me and be like, oh, hey, I see that your husband's hanging out with my ex husband. And like, I'm just so glad that his friends are there for him and I'm this, that and the other. And my husband was like, well, I don't want to put you in the middle of it. Like, I don't Want you to have to like, answer for her ex husband. And so I'm just gonna like cut it off and make it so that like, we don't have any more contact. And he was like, and I don't really care to see her stuff anymore anyway. His mindset is just like, he knows how she is from the way that they've like grown up and basically said that he feels like eventually he'll be forced to choose a side. So he's just kind of cutting his losses now.
- [37:01]
Nick
Okay, so just one more time to clarify. There's no actual hard evidence that there's another person in the picture. Just that she said it. Said she has said some things that sound off to you and kind of question if there's another person. Correct?
- [37:20]
Jen
Yeah, there's no, there's no hard evidence specifically. We've heard some rumblings. There's been some like, comments that were weird. Like, there's been some like, interactions that were strange. But like, other than that, it's not. Well, she wouldn't be the, like, yes.
- [37:35]
Nick
She wouldn't be the first person, certainly not the first person in their late 20s or early 30s who like, realized they didn't want to be married and there doesn't have to be an affair or another person going on for her to desire to want to date other men or miss the attention of going out and being hit on by men and wish that she could hit on them back. Or, you know, clearly for someone who just out of nowhere decided to divorce their husband, they must be pining for a lifestyle that would allow her to invite men over or to have parties or, you know, and things like that. And she sounds like a person who is worried about what other people might think of her. I mean, most of us are, right? So like, whether, I mean, I honestly think it's kind of a waste of time. It doesn't really matter, honestly, you know, if there is another person or not. I mean, yeah, I mean, it would, it would be extra shitty of her and maybe speak to her character even worse. At a minimum, she sounds like a selfish person. Someone who can get married because they think it's going to fix some problem and then like out of nowhere and like, I don't know what she thought of marriage or how, how serious she took it or what she was actually willing to do or what her vows meant to her, but clearly not much. She just decided that marriage was inconvenient for her. I'm sure, as you know, like, marriage takes a lot of work. Your, your husband's ability to be together 20 years from now will not be based on how you guys feel about each other today. You know, it'll be based off of you as individuals wanting to like, have a family and put in the work and wake up and choose to like, be with each other. And then someday you guys are going to wake up and feel disconnected or be at odds with each other and not see eye to eye, but know deep down there's love there and say, I want to work and fix the disconnect that we have. And even if there are moments where you feel unseen by your husband and you, you don't start wishing other men would hit on you. You focus on trying to get that back. And as you guys grow older and look less hot, you don't go seeking that attention in other spaces. You just, again, you put in the work. She is someone who clearly, like, didn't sign up for this type of work. You know, she sounds like a person who liked the idea of being married. You know, Again, she's also only in her late 20s and we live in a time where people aren't maturing any faster. And late 20s is the new like 18 year olds type of thing.
- [40:12]
Jen
Yeah.
- [40:12]
Nick
So it doesn't mean she's like a bad person, just means maybe she's just a far more selfish era than any of you guys anticipated. To your husband's point, given that you guys are newlyweds, I don't think you should be just generally surrounding yourself with people who have the mindset that she has. I don't think that's going to do you guys any good. You know, I'm not saying you're incapable of, of being with like, single women. And like, you know, I'm not, you know, like, as if, like, you, you, you can't be around people who quote, unquote, bad influences. I'm just, it's not helpful. I, I think, you know, I think, I think it is important to surround yourself with people who share similar values to you guys. I think as married couples, I think young married couples should pay close attention to the people they surround themselves with. I think it's a, a, a huge red flag when young married couples have friends who are very single. And then when those young married couples, you know, want to spend quality time with those single friends, I, I think that's a red flag. You know, I think when young married couples are together, they want to be with each other, they want to invest in their relationship, and they like the idea of surrounding themselves with people who share that Value you doesn't mean it can't work. I'm not saying every person. I'm not saying when you get married, you have to fire all your single friends. I just think it's a bit of a red flag. Her behavior and the fact that your husband wants to distance himself a little bit from this person, probably it makes a lot of sense. You know, I'm not saying you, I'm not saying you can't be friends with her. But I also, just in general, I think unless your husband is just wrong about something, I think you should always have each other's back.
- [42:03]
Jen
And he's normally not. Like, I think that he has a really good read on people and that's why I, I trust him. Because like I said, I tend to be a little jaded when it comes to my friendships. And so like, of course, like, you know, dramatic, like saying, am I gonna choose my husband's side? Because, like, of course I am. Like, he's my family and he's my partner and like, you know, he's the person I'm gonna choose. But I think that, you know, it's, it's to your point, like, can I still be friends with someone that, you know, doesn't, one, match up with my values? And then two, like, doesn't get along with my husband? Right? Because then you're thinking, like, okay, if I'm doing anything, like, for example, my birthday just was a couple weeks ago. And so like, if I'm gonna invite, you know, friends over, like, you know, she doesn't want to be around him. Like, she's made that clear and vice versa. So I'm like, can I invite her to those things? Can I, you know, if we're going to have a housewarming party, if we're going to, you know, the other, like, can I have her there?
- [42:57]
Nick
And so I think, yeah, I, I would say no. But I also think if your husband's okay with it and if this is more about, like, listen, I just don't want to fuck with her. I'm friends with Brad. Let's. Her ex husband. I'm just making up a name here. Brad's a good guy. Brad didn't sign up for this. And you know, like, and I definitely want Brad in the divorce, so to speak. And she just seems to be going through something which again, no judgment on her, her as a person, but like, she's, she just doesn't want the same shit I want. And if it's between Brad and her, I'm gonna pick Brad. Then you give her the opportunity, assuming your husband's chill with it being like, you know, like, she's fine. I just. If it's between her and Brad, I'm pick Brad. So if you guys have a housewarming party, a birthday party, whatever, yeah, she wouldn't be invited. And then you give her the opportunity to still have some kind of relationship, like, maybe you guys grab lunch or something. And if she's just like, well, you know, and if she has a problem with that because she doesn't like the idea that she. You guys picked Brad, then that's her bad. And you could be like, listen, like, you let. You left. You left him. You know, he didn't choose this. We didn't choose this. I respect your choice. I'm not saying you should be with someone that you don't want to be married, but, like, at the end of the day, you chose this life. And we weren't going to punish him for the new life you wanted. You know, my husband's. My husband. You know, I'm going to always have his back, and I, you know, you're never going to come between that. But if I'm still down to, like, you know, if you want to call me up, I can, you know, be your friend, I'm. I'm down to grab lunch if I have free time. She'll probably opt not to. She doesn't sound like a person who's going to be down for that type of friendship. She's gonna act like you're judging her, shaming her, and, you know, things like that.
- [44:35]
Caller 2
Right.
- [44:36]
Jen
And that's the other thing, too. So, like, I think with this whole, like, this whole divorce situation, I think I almost have not a unique take. Like, I'm not acting like I'm special, but, like, a take where, like, she and I have talked a lot about, like, past traumas and, like, I've been in therapy for years, like, with, you know, family and childhood trauma. And, like, she and I match up a lot. Like, there's a lot of similarities with things that we've gone through in the past. And I think that, honestly, like, my take on everything, and she's never been to therapy. I think that my take on everything is that she genuinely decided to check out of the relationship and, like, didn't tell anybody, and basically, like, you know, was like, I've decided this and didn't clue her husband in, like, didn't go to therapy, didn't really try to fix it, and then, you know, all of a sudden just kind of, like, Dipped out. And I think that she's still kind of dealing with the aftermath of that. And, like, I've encouraged her to go to therapy and I've encouraged her to, you know, do all of these things. But I think for, you know, to a certain extent, I almost like, like feel for her. Right? Like, I'm like, if I hadn't gone to therapy and if I hadn't done all these things, like, I don't know, like, I feel like I would probably do the same thing. Like, I wouldn't be able to be in a healthy relationship because I haven't worked through these things. And so I think to that point, like, I'm almost, like, not feeling bad. Like, I'm not pitying her, but I'm like, you know, that kind of sucks. That, like, you're probably going through something and feel like no one's there for you, but then, like, your ex husband is collateral damage in this whole situation because you just. Just decided to marry him and try to fix your problems. Totally putting a ring on it, you.
- [46:07]
Nick
Know, you're not a therapist, and she's not asking for your help.
- [46:11]
Jen
True.
- [46:11]
Nick
She is an adult, and she's gonna have to figure this out herself. You have tried to steer her in the right direction. You can only do so much, but you can't make her problems your problems. And like, you know, I think there's. There's a big difference between the two. And I think sometimes we convince ourselves of, like, well, I don't want to alienate my friend, and my friend needs me, and if my friend just did what I did, they would be in a better place and things like that. But that's you making her problems your problems. That's, that's. That's you. That's doing more than you're being asked of, and that's energy that you should be investing in your marriage and relationships and friendships that match the lifestyle that you and your husband want to have. I mean, is that cold? I don't know. I guess. But it's just like, I just think even the best relationships are so hard. And I just think now more than ever, it's. Nothing in this, nothing in our society today really is supportive of, of, of good, healthy marriages. You know, I think we, as people, we're having a harder and harder time connecting. Misery loves company, right? You know, so there's more single people than married people, and then there's more cynical divorced people than married people. So you don't have a lot of people like, like rooting for your Success. So it's that much more important to find people who are rooting for you. Who, who. When you and your husband fall on a hard time, and you will, at some point, you know, you know, it might not get to the point where you're like questioning, should we be together? But it might be where you're just like, at odds. And you're going to want to be surrounded by people who can say, yeah, we've been there before, but we got through it and here's how we did it. You know, you want people who. You don't want to be surrounding yourself with the single cynical people who'll be like, I don't know. Yeah, like, I hated my husband, like marriage and you this. And it's just like, those people are easy to find.
- [47:58]
Jen
Do you think it'd be worth it to have like a conversation with her to say, like, hey, this is where I'm at, this is what I'm thinking? Or like, do you think it's just kind of like. I think just like a fizzle out situation?
- [48:08]
Nick
I. Again, I'm not saying you have to fire her as a friend, but if she takes exception with not being picked and she starts noticing that Brad is being pissed and then she calls you out on that, then you can level with her. Yeah, like, level with her in a way of like, let her bring the problem to you. Don't bring the problem to her. You know, for all, for all, you.
- [48:33]
Jen
Know, in that situation, how would you confront that? Like, would you say, like, I would.
- [48:38]
Nick
Just be real with her. She's like, listen, like, I'm really sorry this didn't work out for you, but like, you're entering a season of your life that I'm just not interested in. And I, I love you and I'm here to be your friend. But like, you know, and, and also like, I'm. I'm glad you wish him well. But like, I'm always going to choose my husband and my, I'm not going to make my husband not be friends with a guy because you decided to leave him. And you have every right to do that. But like, listen, this is a consequence of, you know, there are consequences to all our choices, you know, and you. These, you made this choice and I, I support the choice, but you can't expect everyone around you to take your side. And I gotta choose my husband. And more importantly, you know, I'm invested in, in people who, you know, like, I don't, I don't want to go bar hopping for guys, you know, it's just like. And, yeah. And, you know, and, or, or just be like, listen, I, I, I, I. This might sound cold, and I, I know. I'm sure this sounds unfair, but, like, I'm never gonna ask my husband to uninvite your husband over you. And I understand why you might feel a certain way about that, but. Yeah. And you don't try to convince her that you're right. You know what I'm saying? It's. You're not right. It's your opinion. I don't expect her to like it. I don't expect her to agree with it. You're not trying to convince her why you're making the decision. It's. It's a shitty decision that she's gonna hate, and she's gonna feel very strongly about it, most likely, you know, because everything.
- [50:09]
Jen
Yeah.
- [50:10]
Nick
Her whole decision tree has been about her. She is doing things for herself right now. She has the mindset of, I need this for me, and I'm going to do what's best for me right now. And what I need is to be not married, and I need people to not think I cheated, and I need to do this for me. And when you had her as a maid of honor at your wedding, she was thinking of herself. She wasn't thinking, this is my friend's day, and I'm here for her. And I'm here as a servant to her, her and her family, because it's my job to make this day special for my friend. She acted in a way that, you know, made people think. This is a person who's thinking of herself right now.
- [50:50]
Jen
Yeah, for sure. And I think, like, it was interesting because when my husband had unfollowed her, you know, on Instagram or unfriended her on Facebook or whatever, like, she had reached out to me, and it was like, right before I was going to work, and she texted me and she was like, oh, I saw that your husband, you know, unfollowed me. Oh, great. And unfriended me on Facebook, too. You know, like something really passive aggressive. And I basically just said, listen, like, I don't want to be involved. Like, I'm not interested. Like, I understand that. Like, you're upset about my husband doing that, but, like, I don't want to be involved. And I think, like, we ended up sitting down and, like, talking about it, and it was a, you know, well, I don't want your husband to be in your ear and telling you, you know, about my character and, like, you know, not wanting us to be Friends and all these things. And I was like, I live with the guy.
- [51:37]
Nick
Like, you know, it's my husband. You know, my husband's gonna be in my ear, you know, and, like.
- [51:42]
Jen
Right.
- [51:42]
Nick
But, like, that's. And that's kind of my point. She's. It's not that she's a bad person. She doesn't want what you want, you know?
- [51:49]
Jen
Yeah.
- [51:50]
Nick
It's like.
- [51:51]
Jen
Yeah.
- [51:51]
Nick
If it's. That's why the sober person doesn't hang out with the heavy drinker, you know, it's just.
- [51:56]
Jen
Yeah.
- [51:57]
Nick
Sometimes lifestyles just don't match up. You know, it's odd that she's, you know, she's. Yeah, it's like, I don't. Listen, if you don't want to be married, you shouldn't be married. You know, like, you're. You did a favor for everyone, but at the same time, choices have consequences. And you didn't think of me, and I didn't expect. Expect you to. But it's not like when you got divorced, you considered me. My feelings, my husband's feelings. You just, you know, you considered your feelings, and. And you had the right to do that, and I support you doing that. But. But you don't get to then now come back to me and tell me how I'm supposed to communicate with my husband.
- [52:35]
Jen
Yeah, that's true. No, that's definitely a great take. And I think that that. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, because especially when you don't have someone supporting you through, you know, through that season of life where you can't support each other through those seasons of life, like, it becomes really difficult to. To have anything in common. And that's where I think I'm. I'm struggling now. Right. Because I'm like, I don't have anything in common with you. Like, we don't do the same things. You don't like the same things. And, like, you know, she's made it a point in the past to, like, not want to be around, like, some of my closest friends either. Like, they're, like, married and people that I hang out with a lot. And, like, those are people that I really value their, you know, relationships and opinions. And so, I don't know. She's kind of making it very difficult for me to be her friend.
- [53:17]
Nick
Yeah. I mean, she doesn't, you know, because people like you can make her feel judged, right?
- [53:23]
Jen
No, and she's mentioned that. She said, like, you know, I feel like I'm judged when I'm in, you know, this group, and I'm like, no one's done anything to make you think that. So I don't know. Is that internal then? Like.
- [53:33]
Nick
Well, the truth is, you guys are probably judging her a little bit, so there's some truth to what she's saying. And I don't know, it's just like, you know, welcome to life. I don't, you know, I don't know. That's like. We're not kids anymore. Yeah, we make choices. We have to live with our choices. But, like, she is acting like she. She gets to make choices without consequences, and she's expecting everyone to sympathize and see her, and that's just not how works, you know? And I don't want the same things you want. I just got married. I'm still a newlywed, and relationships are hard, and. And I'm not gonna. And I want mine to work, and I'm, you know, I do. And I'm sure.
- [54:11]
Jen
No, that's bad.
- [54:11]
Nick
I'm not saying that to make you feel bad. I'm just. That's my truth. So, yeah, I'm.
- [54:17]
Jen
Yeah, I'm.
- [54:18]
Nick
I'm definitely not, you know, if you need friends to of hit the town with, I'm not the person. I'm not that person.
- [54:25]
Jen
I'm not one of them. Yeah, you know, yeah, that definitely makes sense. We have, like, we have a very close, like, mutual friend, too. Like, I mean, the three of us are, like, really, really good friends. And, you know, she's kind of in, like, a new season of life. Like, she's a new mom, and, you know, her and her husband have been together for a long time, and she and I have become really close friends. But this. This other friend that, you know, I'm not as close with anymore introduced us. And so I think that, like, the two of us feel kind of, like, awkward navigating it because, I don't know, like, when she was going through, like, all this divorce stuff and kind of went MIA like, this other friend of mine was, like, a month away from giving birth. And so, like, when, you know, she had the baby, like, I was the first person that she told, like, two weeks into the relationship, like, when she had the baby home, like, I came over and, like, brought them lunch and, like, wanted to interact with the baby. And, like, this other friend was really jealous of that and really upset that, like, like, he and I are interacting. But like you said, I mean, kind of supporting each other through those seasons of life. Like, if she's, you know, selfishly, you know, kind of going through this whole situation. Like, I don't know how to, you know, tell her that, hey, like, you're, you know, it's not that you're not included, but, like, we're not just going to include you for the sake of including you, like, if you don't actually want to be here. Does that make sense?
- [55:37]
Nick
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen, at the end of the day, she's just. She's. She's going through a selfish period in her life, and she's doing it at a time where many of her other friends, including you, are choosing the opposite. You are choosing, as you're in the season of life, of thinking, what can I do for this relationship? It's not about me anymore. It's about us. Right? You're in the season of us. She's in the season of me. And it just is what it is, you know, she's not wrong. She probably is making the best decision for herself right now and for him, you know, and maybe in the future, you guys will come back together, you know, and that's why I'm saying it doesn't have to be some bitter breakup, but you might say things to her that she doesn't like to hear, and that's fine, you know? Or maybe she will also just be the type of person who's like, I don't know, like, for example, like, listen, less dramatic. But in my early 30s, I broke up with my girlfriend. You know, we. We broke up. Right. And many of my other friends got engaged, you know, and I was living in Milwaukee, and I'd been in Milwaukee for the better part of a decade, and it's a relatively small city, and I was just like, I just. I. I'm not meeting any new people. And so I. I was just more like, I got to get the fuck out of here. And I moved to Chicago, and it was just more like, I. I'm. I'm still looking for my person. I still want to go out. I'm single. Like, I, you know, I guess I would have been nice to have met someone by now. Sure. But I haven't yet. So I moved, you know, I made new friends. I, I, you know, I. I was this. I decided, like, yeah, I don't. You know, I also pride on myself on being a great third and fifth wheel, but I also was like, you know, I love my friends, but, like, they're in a different season than I am, and I'm gonna make some moves in my life. And so hopefully she. That's what she decides. And she doesn't put you in a position to have to, like, say the. You know, because, like, if I had not had that realization, right, like, maybe I was just more thinking about myself and how I. The fact I haven't found anyone and me and my. And then I was, like, going to my buddies who are now engaged and be like, hey, come on, you are. We're gonna go out tonight. And they're like, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna stay home with the lady. And, you know, I actually. We got. We got a wine tasting tomorrow. I was like, oh, man. Like, well, you stop being such a. Like, oh, you choose your girl. You know, like, that would have been crazy for me to do, but that's essentially what you're worried that she might do, you know, so let's see if she does it right now. It's so raw and fresh, you know, but she just might end up, you know, finding new friends, and there's a good chance she might do that because she doesn't want to feel judged by you, and she does, and she realizes she doesn't want what you want and things like that, and she realizes she's not getting. You know, it probably will work itself out.
- [58:10]
Jen
Yeah, definitely. No, and I totally agree. And I think that that. That makes a lot of sense, because when we, like, had met and kind of, like, tried to talk things out, she got really emotional, and she was like, I'm losing my husband. And, like, now I feel like I'm losing my best friend and, like, you know, all of these things. But I think she's just, you know, going through a lot of change, and there's just not a lot that I can do to help or, like, condolences that I can really offer outside of, like, hey, I'm sorry you're going through that.
- [58:35]
Nick
She doesn't have to lose her friend. She just, like, I didn't lose my friends, but, like, you know, did we grow apart at times that I see less of my friends? Sure.
- [58:43]
Jen
Yeah.
- [58:44]
Nick
You know, we weren't any less close. It was just more like, hey, man, like, you do you. I'm going to do me. You know, I still love you, but, like, I don't want to go to the, you know, a pottery class with you and your fiance.
- [58:56]
Caller 1
Mm.
- [58:57]
Nick
I want to. I'm going to go out tonight, you know, so have fun. And so hopefully she doesn't put you in a position to choose, but, like, you can still be friends, but it might be friends in a different context, and you might not be, like, double dating as much anymore. And maybe in the future, when she meets a guy, you can go on a double date as after the dust settles.
- [59:17]
Jen
Yeah.
- [59:17]
Nick
It wouldn't be crazy. Like, six months from now, she meets a guy, she likes him, she realized that maybe I just didn't want to be married to him. And, you know, hurt feelings aside that, like, you know, she's might not be your husband's favorite person, but, like, can they double date? Sure. And, like, and. And Brad can, you know, can get over that as well. Because while. While you might be inviting him to the parties now, like, he's also not in a position to say, you can never hang out with my ex wife and new girl and new boyfriend if she ends up finding someone either, you.
- [59:47]
Jen
Know, like, yeah, and he wouldn't be the type to do that. Like, and I know that about him, but I do know that, you know, this person that I was that I'm really close friends with, like, I know that she would do that. Like, she would be like, well, why are you hanging out with such and such and, you know, his new girlfriend and blah, blah, because it'll likely be that, like, like, if she gets together with another guy, like, and he's dating another girl, like, we will probably double date with him and this other girl. And I mean, you know, that's a plan that my husband's gonna make, and I will be along for the ride.
- [60:15]
Nick
So you can choose to get divorced, and I'll support it. You can choose to be selfish, I'll support it. You don't get to choose to be petty and then tell me what I can and can't do and then. And then call me a bad friend for it.
- [60:27]
Caller 2
For sure.
- [60:28]
Jen
Yeah. No, that's very smart.
- [60:30]
Nick
So. All right.
- [60:32]
Jen
Yeah. Totally agree. That makes sense. Well, thank you so much for your help. I.
- [60:36]
Nick
My pleasure.
- [60:36]
Jen
Really love listening to your show and I love your reality recaps. I'm a big Bravo fan, so.
- [60:41]
Nick
Well, I appreciate you calling in. Thanks for listening and, you know, keep us posted. I'd love an update on this friendship dynamic as it unfolds.
- [60:49]
Jen
Yep, I'll let you know.
- [60:50]
Nick
I appreciate it. Take care.
- [60:52]
Jen
Awesome. Thanks.
- [60:52]
Nick
All right. Bye. Bye.
- [60:53]
Jen
Bye.
- [60:55]
Nick
Well, as soon as I get done talking to you guys today, I'm gonna go ahead and make dinner with my Caraway Pots fans. I've been cooking on caraway for over five years now. I've gifted caraway to many friends and family, and it's because I love it. I love it because, a, it's great to cook on. If you like cooking, you will love cooking on caraway. It's easy to clean, it's great to cook on. It looks great. But the best part is it's safe. It's safe for you and your family. It's crazy how many toxic cookwares are available for you to purchase but not with caraway. It's non toxic cookware made modern. It's not made with all those very scary dangerous chemicals like those PFAs, PFOAs, PTFEs, lead and other harmful chemicals. Not with caraway. They also have great bakeware. If you are into baking. Everything they make looks great. They come in all different assortments of colors. It's easy to store. Again, did I say it's easy to clean? It is if I didn't. It is. It's amazing. Over 70% of cooking and baking pans sold in America are coated with PTFes. That's scary. Do yourself a favor and give yourself the gift of safe, good, great cooking ware. If you have been eyeing the Internet's famous 12 piece cookware set, now is the time to pull the trigger and buy it. Now you can shop caraway risk free. Enjoy fast free shipping, easy returns in a 30 day trial. Plus if you visit carawayhome.com vile files you can take an additional 10 off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.com vile files or use code vile files at checkout Caraway Non Toxic cookware made Modern well, obviously one of the most meaningful things I get to do in the show is hear people's stories about the relationships and problems they have and hopefully try to help them from time to time. But sometimes it. It doesn't feel like I'm able to help. And there was this one listener who recently wrote in. They wrote in and said, I love my partner but I have zero interest in sex. It's killing me. I feel broken. Well, first off, obviously we know she is not. We've had this conversation on the show before. It could be biological. It could be your brain chemistry at play.
- [62:50]
Jessica
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- [63:05]
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- [64:59]
Nick
How's it going?
- [65:00]
Caller 2
My name is Jessica, I am 28 years old and I'm wondering if I should wait or let go.
- [65:06]
Nick
And who. Who are we talking about?
- [65:10]
Caller 2
We're talking about my most recent ex Ex.
- [65:12]
Jen
So okay.
- [65:14]
Nick
Why are.
- [65:14]
Caller 2
Why so It's a relationship.
- [65:16]
Nick
Okay. And did he break up with you?
- [65:18]
Caller 2
He broke up with me, yeah.
- [65:20]
Nick
Okay. And why are you considering waiting? Did he ask you to?
- [65:23]
Caller 2
No. So it's a little bit of a complicated. It's a little bit different than anything I've ever experienced before because a lot of my relationships have been very cut and dry. Like very obviously we should break up. This is not working. And this one was kind of out of the blue. So a little bit of a backstory. We were friends for like a year and a half before we met at work. And then I left that job and we stayed in contact here and there. To be quite honest, I'm maybe the most blind person in the world and I had no idea that like it was even a romantic interest at any point. He had a girlfriend for most of the time that I knew him. And then obviously when I left that ended sometime and he ended up asking me to go to the movies at like 9:30 on a Tuesday. And I was like, like thinking we were going as buddies and held my hand, tried to hold my hand. It was very awkward interaction. But then kind of from there it kind of took off. It was pretty easy. No fighting, nothing like crazy. We had an argument. It was very tame and it was very communic. Like we just communicated through it. There was really nothing wrong at all. And then that went on for eight months. And then, I mean, when I say there was nothing wrong, I mean there was stuff wrong, but nothing between us. Or so I thought. So a little background on me is I come from a family that has no divorce. So I think I have one aunt that's been through a divorce. But my dad's one of four, my mom's one of four, my sister's married. Everybody's been happily married for 50 to 20 years. And. And I've had a lot of stable relationships, examples. And he's probably the complete opposite. He does. His family life is a little bit different. He lost his dad pretty tragically when he was young and then his mom remarried and then that ended very poorly. They had been going through like a five year divorce. But when I met him, and I think it's still somewhat ongoing and it, it's very toxic, a little violent. So it's just what he's seen in his life. And then also he was an addict. He's been sober for a pretty long time, but I think he carries like a lot of guilt from that portion of his life, if that makes sense.
- [67:50]
Nick
So am I.
- [67:52]
Jen
A lot of trauma.
- [67:53]
Nick
Gotcha. And I'm guessing, correct me if I'm wrong, just a stab in the dark that when you say this is a little bit different in your head, there's a Narrative that sounds something like. Or when he broke up with you, he gave you some kind of line that sounded something like, I just can't do this right now, or I just don't know how to focus on us, or blah, blah, blah, because of all the things that he's dealing with, his sobriety, his mom's relationship. And so you're telling yourself this is a person who's hurting right now, who needs me, and he can't do this right now, but he might be able to do this in the future.
- [68:38]
Caller 2
Yeah, I mean, I'm not delusional. I won't. Believe me, I am delusional sometimes, but I think in this case, I'm pretty aware that. So, so, so basically what happened was he. He also, like, the whole time was writing me, like, letters and things, like postcards. This is something like, I knew him in a relationship previously, so, like, I knew he never did that. So it was very much hot and heavy. Very, very quickly, like, he told me he loved me. He told me he wanted to have babies with me and stuff, like, three months in. And I'm like, okay, like, maybe let's relax for a minute. Like, like, I love that for us, but like, like, not now. Like, let's wait. And he, like, kind of presented that to his mom when he introduced me. Like, this is a person that's I'm gonna marry. Like, all that kind of stuff introduced me to his sisters, which he doesn't typically do. So everything about it was, like, a little bit different. And it was very much like, oh, my God, if I ever. If we ever break up, if you ever decide to break up with me, like, I'm not doing this again. Like, I'm not dating. I am done. And so when we broke up, he was presented as, like, I don't think I ever want to be with anybody. Like, that was the answer, was that I. You are so loving and caring, but. And you deserve someone who's going to be able to love and reciprocate and care. Like. Like you do. And I don't even love myself or want, like, a relationship ever. So that's what I'm thinking. So it was presented. Basically what happened was we were laying in bed, we had gone to dinner that day, Everything was fine. We had spent the whole night together. It was great. And it was like one o' clock in the morning. And he was like, can I be honest with you? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, I don't know if I ever want to have children. And I Was like, oh, okay, that's different than what you've said before. But, I mean, if that's how you're feeling, like, I mean, we can talk about it. And I'm not like, set on anything. Like, obviously in my life, you get married, you have kids. That's what you do. But I'm slowly realizing maybe that's not my life. I don't know. We'll see.
- [70:54]
Nick
How old are you again?
- [70:54]
Caller 2
I'm 28. 28? Yeah. I have time to figure it out. I was on the wave that I was gonna be 26, married and have babies and whatever. And now it's definitely not. Not what I think, but so he never. It almost felt like I was like, he's like, well, you want kids? And it's like, well, I think I want kids, but, like, I want kids with the right person in the right time, when we're ready, like, as a group decision. And so that. And then it turned into, like, well, I don't know if I ever want to move in with you.
- [71:24]
Nick
And then it turned into, I don't know if I ever want a girlfriend. And, you know.
- [71:27]
Caller 2
Yeah. And then it turned into, I don't ever know. I don't ever see myself being in a relationship again.
- [71:33]
Nick
Yeah.
- [71:33]
Caller 2
And then breathe. So that was three months ago. I did call him last week. It was more out of, like, I. So when that happened, I was, like, cripplingly anxious, sad, terrible. Still have those moments. But I turned it into something positive. I started going to therapy again. I started working out every day. I lost, like, 46 pounds. Like, it was like. Like I was doing everything for me at that point because I needed to turn it into something not. I'm going to jump out of a window and, like, die. So I. We have. Still have some co workers that we keep in contact with, like, mutual people. So I was hearing some stuff that I didn't really like that was being said just about the breakup. About, like, oh, I just didn't see a future with her. Instead of, like, it was like, more blaming me for it. It somewhat. And also the. I went to. I was out of town for work last week, and I was in the airport with one of my friends, just randomly. And she was like, oh, I saw him today and he looks like. He looks terrible. And I was like, okay, like, please.
- [72:39]
Jen
Don'T tell me that. Like, I still need to know.
- [72:41]
Caller 2
Like, this is just stuff that I can't hear. And so I. So the. The curiosity got the better of me and some stuff happened in Some with some of our old co workers and stuff. So I just called him, and he didn't answer. But he texted me back, like, right away, and he ended up being out of town, so something I didn't say was one of the triggers for all of this happening was he lost his job in January, and that is when he said that his feelings started to change because he started to get too, like, anxious and emotional, and everything was just coming at him. He also started in December. He has been sober for a while, but he's never done any of his step work, so he never went through the 12 steps, never got a sponsor. If we back up to December, he. He and I were talking, and I think I remember it because I was on my couch, and I remember being like, what's your deepest, darkest secret? As, like, a joke. Like, me thinking, like, as someone who doesn't have too much. Too much trauma, I'm like, this is a silly question, right? And he gave me some bullshit answer, and I gave him some bullshit answer back. It was just, like, funny. Like, we used to ask questions like that. And then, like, a couple days later, he was like, like, can I tell you what my deepest, darkest secret is? Really? And I was like, yeah, like, what. What did you do? Like, you kill someone? Like, what's going on? Like, a little scary. And I'm not going to air it out, because that's his. It's. It's. It's a lot of trauma, and most of it is. Has nothing to do with him. It's, like, family stuff that he feels really guilty about. And he was like, do you hate me? Like, do you want to break up? And I was like, no, I love you, and it's not your fault, and I'm sorry that you went through that. That. And if you want to talk about it, I'm here for you. If you don't, that's fine, too. And whatever you need, like, you let me know. And he, like, cried, and he doesn't cry. And he's. That's when he started crying, like, a lot.
- [74:28]
Nick
Yeah.
- [74:29]
Caller 2
And I was like, okay. And then he was like, I think I'm gonna get a sponsor and start doing my steps. And I was like, that's great. I think that's a great idea. I think I support that. And then I had asked him if he wanted to be single during that, because usually you do it in the beginning. Usually they want you to be single. You're. Because you're very, like, vulnerable. And he was like, no, I really don't. Like, I, you're, you've been like, the only reason I've wanted to do all this, all this is being triggered because I want to be better for, like, our future. And I was like, okay, like, whatever you say. Like, you just let me know. So when all this was happening, he was like, doing his steps. He was like, he lost his job. Like, all, like all of this just happened at once. And then it was kind of like, I'm not worthy of a relationship. I'm not worthy of. Why do I get to be happy when, like, other people aren't? Like, I've hurt so many people in my life. I don't deserve to have, like, the happy ending kind of thing. And like, I've obviously said, like, yes, you do, but, like, I can't force you. And then he said he was going to get into therapy and as. So then when I called him last week, it was mostly a check in. It wasn't really anything. Like, I wasn't trying to get back together with him. I wasn't like, asking for that. I was just like, hey, like, I was thinking about you and I was just curious how you were doing and how. And he had started the new job, which was like the stream job of his. And I was like, I just wanted to know how it was going. And he was like, it's good, the job's good. And then he, like, he was just like a little cautious. We talked for three hours and to be quite honest, I don't even know what we talked about. Like, I almost blanked it out, but he was like, I googled you. And I was like, you. He doesn't have social media. So I was like, you googled me? And he's like, yeah, I wanted to see how you were doing. And he like, must have googled me, like, literally Monday. And I had called him on Tuesday because I had just posted a picture from a trip I was on. And he was. And he was like, you look really good and you sound really good and you sound like you're doing really well and working through your shift more than I am and yada, yada, yada. And then I like, of course got a little choked up. And I was like, I'm not crying because I'm sad and crying because, like, that's really nice to hear that someone can see that I'm doing well. And he's. And then he went into the whole, like, I don't. I. I really never wanted to hurt you. Like, I, that was never my intention. Like, I just didn't know what else to do. And I was like, yeah, no, I. I understand that. And, like, I'm very aware that, like, he has a lot of work to do, but, like, the things that concern me are, like, he was waiting until he started the job to go get a therapist. Right. So one of the questions was like, how's therapy? And he's like, I'm on a waiting list. Like, okay. Like, he's like, well.
- [77:11]
Nick
Well, the.
- [77:11]
Caller 2
The. The one that's, like, free through my. My company is like, there's a wait list. I was like, you can afford therapy. Like, let me just tell you. You can afford it. Like, and it might be really beneficial for you to just go someplace else without a wait list.
- [77:23]
Nick
Yeah.
- [77:24]
Caller 2
Like. Like, you know what I mean? It's just so, like, that's, like, a little bit of a red flag. Like, he hasn't done that.
- [77:29]
Nick
Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Sorry to cut you off, but I'm sure we could talk for hours about him. I'm sure when this call first started, I was kind of like, yeah, you know, I bet it was like this. And you said, yeah, but my situation is a little different. How is your situation different? And answer it in 20 seconds.
- [77:46]
Caller 2
Different than what you said just in.
- [77:49]
Nick
From. In your. From your perspective. Like, like you said, but my situation. How is it different?
- [77:55]
Caller 2
Yeah. So to me, it feels different because, like, I. I have never loved somebody like, the way that I love him. Like, they say you want to end up with somebody you live in a cardboard box with.
- [78:04]
Nick
Yeah.
- [78:04]
Caller 2
And, like, this is the first person in my life that I've ever felt that way about. And for me, it feels like I don't think he truly wants to be alone forever.
- [78:12]
Nick
I think I agree with you there.
- [78:15]
Caller 2
And I think. And, like. And I truly believe, like. Like, even just talking to him last week, like, I truly believe it's. He's gonna end up alone forever and never get through what he needs to get through, or he's gonna come search me out one day.
- [78:29]
Nick
Yeah.
- [78:29]
Caller 2
Because I really don't believe he'll ever start over with somebody else. I don't think he has the capacity to. In just the per. Even like, the friend that I knew before.
- [78:37]
Nick
Yeah. Okay.
- [78:38]
Caller 2
And maybe that's. And maybe that's delusional.
- [78:41]
Nick
I would say that's understandable and normal. Normal. The way you feel. You mentioned after you broke up that you started using it as a positive and got back into therapy and started working out and lost 46 pounds. And that's that's an incredible accomplishment to be healthier, you know, in that regard. When I hear you say that and then you. And then you describe your relationship with your ex boyfriend, it feels good to be needed. We all love to be needed. And he certainly makes you feel needed. He's so lost without you. That must make you feel very important, feel very special.
- [79:14]
Caller 2
Yeah.
- [79:14]
Nick
But while I, while I commend you for, for not wallowing in your sadness and using this breakup to use that energy into yourself, I think the fact that you weren't in therapy, that you weren't taking care of your physical health, like, is an example of how much energy this relationship took out of you that stopped you from taking care of yourself so much. The fact that you were in a position to make that drastic of self improvement of yourself speaks to like, you should be in a relationship that allows you to be able to still take care of yourself. And I just think that's just something to note.
- [79:56]
Caller 2
I will say we did go to the gym together. So, like, that was something that I really loved about our relationship was he pushed me to go. I was very lazy and he pushed me to get back into the gym and do all that. Well, we had. That's actually something that probably strained our relationship little at the end. So I had a cancer scare.
- [80:12]
Nick
I'm sorry.
- [80:13]
Caller 2
And I did. And it was very much adamant that like, something was wrong. So that was part of one of the reasons why, like, I stopped going to the gym and things like that wasn't because of him. I mean, he was definitely stressing me out because he was very worried about not getting a job and hit like, all the turmoil happening in his life. But I also was like having a lot of, of like health issues. And that's another thing that, like, is a red flag is he knew my grandmother ended up in the hospital. My. I was going in for tests for this sickness that I was having literally the next week or like during, like while he was breaking up with me. It was almost like he got it. He got his new job and then he was like, kind of like found like the light, right? And then ended it with me. And then my whole life was like, oh, okay, wait, wait, where's my sport? Like, where's my person to like, stick by me in sickness and health? Like, yeah, probably die. I might have.
- [81:10]
Nick
Yeah, I probably felt very unfair.
- [81:12]
Caller 2
Yeah, it's like I. It was terrible. And then like, my car got totaled. I think like two weeks later. It was like, it was like a mess. Like, and I was Just like, what. What the. What is going on? Like, why, like, why do you get to have me help you? And then. And he never checked in. Like, he knew about all this stuff and he was like, what was I supposed to do? Like, asked if you were okay. I'm like, yeah, kind of. Maybe, like, maybe just a little, like. And he's like, I didn't want to, like, lead you on or do it. And I understand that. I think that was probably for the best. But it was still like, dude, what? And then, like, even just, like, talking to him recently, it was like, he just kept saying on the phone, he was like, are you gonna be okay if I don't ever want to be in a relationship again? Like, with anybody? And I was like. And he, like, kept saying it, and I was like, stop. Like, yes. Like, yeah, there isn't really a choice. Like, if you decide that that is your journey and you want to be alone forever and that is the. The path that you want to go down, like, yeah, I'll be okay like that. I mean, there's nothing. You just gotta get on, getting on. There's nothing you can do about it. What, do you want me to sit at your door and cry and beg for you? Like, I can't.
- [82:24]
Nick
He probably does. He probably does. I mean, listen, like, we could play therapist and. And you know, him losing his job, you know, scratching an abandonment issue that he has then made him feel unwill worthy. And maybe he just beat you to the punch and broke up with you because he was worried that someday you're gonna break up with him and leave him. And, you know, maybe that's all true and possible.
- [82:42]
Caller 2
There was a lot of project.
- [82:44]
Nick
Yeah, this is gonna be a really dumb thing to say, but. Or an analogy, but, like, I saw something online about a parent who was complaining about the. The school that their kid was at and. Because, like, I guess they were some sort of mathematician and their kid came home because their teacher taught them that one divided by zero is zero. And then they wrote into the school and they were just like, that's not. That's. That's not true. It's undefined. And like, I think in a lot of schools, they teach that one divided by zero is zero. And technically it's not true. It's like a, I guess, a lazy way of teaching math. The reason why I thought about it is because you called it and said, like, I'm wondering if I should move on or if I should wait. There's no such thing as waiting, so to speak. You know, like, there's no, that's not really an option. You could sit and do nothing. You could emotionally be in this relationship without him. I, I've done that. Right. You know, a lot of us do that. A lot of us get broken up with, but emotionally we are still very much in that relationship. That's the relationship we wake up and think about. We go to bed thinking about that relationship. We. We. We take ourselves off, you know, off the field, so to speak. So I guess you could do that, but like, that. That's. Doesn't really get you anywhere. It's almost like it's not really an option. Like, to your point, like you said, you gotta. You gotta live your life, you know, and so when you're sitting here saying, well, Nick, do I move on or do I wait for him? You know, like, you moving on isn't. Is what it's. Continue to take care of yourself, continue to go to therapy. Maybe being open to dating, you know, just being open to dating is what, you know, the dating world out there is so challenging. You even said yourself, I never felt like. I've never felt about anyone else as I felt about him. So, like, there's no guarantee that just because you're open to dating that next week you're gonna. You know, like when people say, oh, should I, Should I, Should I move on or wait around? Like, as pessimistic as we are about our love lives, in that moment, we ask ourselves that question. We almost like, act as if, like, if I decide to move on tomorrow, I'm gonna fall in love with another person. Then what am I gonna do? Is if, like, you know what I'm saying, like, that's the only time that we're optimistic about our love life is as if, like, well, if I move on, then I'm gonna leave the them behind because I'm going to fall in love tomorrow. And I guess all I'm saying is you only have one answer, and that answer is to, yeah, live your life, make healthy decisions, challenge yourself to not emotionally and mentally stay in this relationship that he doesn't, for whatever reason, want or can be in the games. You know, like, it's normal that he's asking these questions that don't make sense. And you're both playing this game because you both care about each other. You know, there's clearly still feelings there. There. There's a lot of trauma on his side that he hasn't worked through. And so all you can do is just simply live your life and, and not put yourself on the sideline and be open to the possibility with that while you haven't met anyone else up until this point that you've loved more than him, it doesn't mean you won't. Right? Every girlfriend I've ever had, I felt like I loved them the most until I realized that I didn't anymore and didn't want to be with him. Right. And, you know, I'm not the person who thinks that there's one person it took me 40 years to meet, the person that I consider the love of my life. You don't know what life's going to bring you. You just have to be open to living your life. And not to sound cliche, you only got one of them, right? And you even got a scare that made life feel more precious than most people even realize. So just be an active participant in your life and just be open to the possibilities. And in the meantime, when you don't have what you want, just make sure you're doing everything you can to put yourself in the best position possible. Whether it's your job, whether it's your health, whether it's just your mental health, your physical health, relationships with friends, you know, your family. Even though it sounds like you have a really, you know, good relationship with your family, you, you can, you know, like, you just, you never know. Life is precious. Life is, life is short. You know, you could sit there and, and pine over this guy who went for whatever, whatever reason, whether, you know, he, he doesn't know what's good for him or not and doesn't appreciate what he had with you, or maybe he's just not there. He is not capable of being the boyfriend that you need or deserve or what. And, and, and he has to do the work on his own. He has to go through these steps. He has to go to therapy on his own. It's nice that you nudged him and, and, and hopefully that, that call that you gave him and that kind of like, hey, man, I don't. I think maybe there's other therapists in this world, you know, other than the one you're on the waiting list. May thing he needed to go in, but it's also, it's just, it's not your responsibility. In the meantime, don't waste your life and your time trying to, to be, you know, somebody for someone who, you know, you can't help in this moment. It's not your job. So it's not about whether you should move on or wait. You should just go live your life and, and make the most of this life. And, you know, maybe he'll go. Maybe he'll take care of his. And maybe you'll go out and date and not meet anyone and, and, and in. He'll get healthy and maybe you'll reconnect and you will laugh about the crazy shit he said to you about not wanting to have kids or not wanting to be with you anymore. That, you know, he will probably date someone else if it's not going to be you. Like, the fact that he said, I don't ever want to be in a relationship again. Is this a crazy thing to say in a moment where he felt a little crazy? He will certainly try again at some point if it's not with you, and I hope it's not with you. If he's not actually healed, he probably should be single while he goes through this journey. If he's willing to go through this journey. Journey.
- [88:07]
Caller 2
Yeah. And that's what we talked about. Like, I, I mean, he, He. He carries a lot of guilt. I mean, even when we were dating, he carried a lot of guilt for the girl he dated previous to me that I knew him to be dating because he basically, they broke up and got back together, and he shouldn't have. Like, it was very clear he did not love her. It was. They had been dating for a year. They never said I love you. Like, she had sold him, but he didn't feel it back. And then they broke up finally because he was like, this is crazy. And then she, like, reached out and he was like, no, let's try again. And I. And I remember him texting me about it. And I was like, are you sure? Like, that's what you want to do? And this was, like, before I even had any feelings for him at all. And he was like. And then in hindsight, like, even when we were dating, she would reach out to him. And I was like, if you want to call her, you can call her and talk to her if you want. And he's like, it's not going to do anything. I just feel bad for what I did. And I was like, yeah, like, I. I get that. And like, that was his biggest thing when he was breaking up with me was like, he sent me, like, three days. Like, I think I sent it in the email that I sent. It was like a text message. And like, we didn't really send, like, we hung out a lot. We live in the same city. We were very close by, so we didn't, like, send, like, crazy, like, ooey gooey text messages. Too often. And one night I was sleeping and he sent me this text and it was like, I just wanted you to know that you are the love of my life. And I know you're sleeping, but, like, I will do anything thing to make this work with you. And I like, you are like, it for me and like, you're my person forever, no matter what. Like, you wrote it down, read it through. He hit send. And I kid you not, two days.
- [89:44]
Jen
Later, I was getting broken up.
- [89:46]
Caller 2
So it was like, to me, it was, it was a lot of like, what was real, what was not? Like, were you trying to convince yourself that you felt that way or like, did you actually feel that way and now you're just like, like self sabotaging. Like, I don't, I don't know. And I think when I wrote in, which was like a little while ago, I did really think, like, oh, should I, should I wait? And now I don't think that, like, I went on my first date since him last night. It was fine. Like, yeah, the guy was fine. We went for drinks. It was, it was whatever. But it, I. I didn't die and I survived it and it was okay. And do I want to do it again anytime soon? Maybe not, but. But yeah, it was more of like, I think with him, it feels like he's self sabotaging and I wish he could just see that. Like, he just. He does deserve love and I hope and he would be a great father if that's the choice that he decides one day. And he would be. He is. He was. He's the guy that bought me flowers every two weeks for eight months. Like, he came over when I was sick and brought me medicine without even asking, even when he was busy. Like, he never. He always thinks, like, he was a burden and he really wasn't. And I think that's. I think what I struggle with is I can't, like, call him every day and be like, you know, you weren't a burden.
- [91:01]
Nick
Like, you know, I know, but he's. He's not. He's not. He may not be a burden, but he's not. He was maybe a burden to himself. Yeah, clearly what he clearly is, is not in a position to. He's not mentally okay and not healthy in a way, and he has work to do. He can acknowledge it. You can acknowledge it. Budget. It's obvious to anyone who knows him. And so I think you have to accept that reality and not try to cherry pick what was good and what really worked and why it wasn't. As bad as you thought it was. I mean, like, you know, again, you guys care about each other. I just think you have to remember that, like, I don't doubt that you're feeling your feelings about him and how intense it is, but he is an intense guy, and I think it's easy to have intense feelings about intense people. And so it doesn't shock me that your feelings are so intense about him. Him versus other people you've dated. Again, he makes you feel very needed. When he's on, he's on. And so he validates you in, in great ways. But again, there's also a lot there that is obviously a red flag and he needs to deal with. And if he doesn't deal with it, it'll all eventually, man. Man manifest its ways in talk as toxic ways. Especially like, you know, let's say you guys ignored all this, got married, had kids, and then, you know, then you're stuck. It's not as easy as waking up and saying, hey, can I be honest with you? I think we should break. Break up, you know, and, and that creates a lot of stress. And, and, and, and stress is a huge trigger for people who aren't mentally healthy. So I think you have to just accept and maybe that the, the healthiest choice he made was to break up with you. Did he communicate in a way that felt fair or honest? You know, he probably doesn't fully know how to do that, but it probably was a healthy choice he made knowing that, like, again, this is a person who's ignored healing. Healing for the time being. And maybe it definitely was. Yeah, your relationship was maybe a good reason to not. It almost masked the healing you needed.
- [92:54]
Caller 2
He did say, like, in the end, like, he was like, I think I can date you for two more months, but in two months you're gonna hate. Hate my guts. Like, you don't hate me now because I haven't shown you, like, the withdrawal that I'm going. I'm going to show you if I continue to do this. And I think that was very, like, self aware. And I think it just pisses me off because I'm just like, how can you be so self aware of all of this and not know how to, like, get yourself through it or help or like, talk to someone that you could talk to. And I just think, like, not ready. The other thing is that it didn't happen. Like, these feelings started in January and like, like the doubts, I think, is what. What I was told. And he went through all of January, all of February, Writing love letters about. About being seven years old, eating Thai food on our couch, like, like having children, like all this stuff. Like, he, like, kept up the charade and kept saying how much he loved me every day and how much I was this person forever.
- [93:52]
Nick
Maybe, you know, it was like.
- [93:56]
Caller 2
Yeah, it just. It just sucks.
- [93:58]
Nick
Yeah. Yeah, it does suck.
- [94:00]
Caller 2
It was real. It was not.
- [94:02]
Nick
I'm sure it was all real.
- [94:03]
Caller 2
And I know.
- [94:03]
Nick
And I, you know, it's just.
- [94:05]
Caller 2
Yeah.
- [94:05]
Nick
Again, I know.
- [94:06]
Caller 2
Think it's for the best. For now.
- [94:09]
Nick
For now.
- [94:09]
Caller 2
I do.
- [94:10]
Nick
I mean, but you. You have to let, you know, convince myself that if you can say for now, you still have to let go. You still have to move on and let. And live your life.
- [94:17]
Caller 2
Yeah.
- [94:18]
Nick
And to sit there and waste your energy, you know, Real. Of course it was real. Again, did he have. Did he have complicated feelings about his feelings for you and his mental health? And did he. Did he. These, These withdrawal feelings he mentioned? You know, the. Maybe those love letters were him trying to convince himself about how he felt about you, knowing what he had with you, knowing that you're a special person, knowing that he was grateful of the relationship. But again, this is not about your relationship. This is not about you. This is about him. You know, and you can't fix him. And. And while he may be able to recognize it, maybe he's just not on the. Your timelines are different. He's going at his pace. Not your pace. You. You are a mentally healthy person. Person. You know, you were able to have your spirits crush and go through heart. Well, I mean, listen, like, no one's a mentally perfect person, but, like, it takes a mentally healthy person to have their heart broken and choose to like, not sulk forever and, and deal with it. You know, you dealt with your shit in a ways that he was probably not capable of dealing with. And so you're comparing how you deal things with how he's dealing thing. And it's. It's apples and oranges. And so.
- [95:30]
Caller 2
So, yeah, I think. I think it's. It's for the best, but it does. It just also sucks because I made it very clear when we started dating that, like, I really, like, valued his friendship more than anything.
- [95:40]
Nick
And that was the cost of doing business.
- [95:43]
Caller 2
Yeah, I know. I wasn't willing to take the risk if. If he wasn't, like, sure. And he was so sure, there's no sense, obviously, you.
- [95:52]
Nick
That, that's, That's. You didn't make the wrong decision. I don't think you should regret your decision. And that was a silly thing for you to ask him. And, and now going forward, you know, not to ask such silly things. If you do develop feelings for a friend in the future because he's a, He's a. He was a. He's a heterosexual male, and friend or not heterosexual friend steps 99% of time have an expiration date, and that expiration date is when you meet your person. And so all you did is.
- [96:23]
Caller 2
You know, he always says that.
- [96:24]
Nick
It's like.
- [96:25]
Caller 2
And I, And I think, I think the other disrespectful thing and the thing that I'm struggling the most with is like the term love bombing has come up so many times. Like, he's like, well, I think we love bombed each other. And it's like, no, we, like fell in love and we love each other, and then it got too intense for you. And that's. I mean, I mean, if anything, you love bomb me, but, like, also, neither.
- [96:47]
Nick
Of you love bomb each other. You had sincere feelings. That's how you felt. You didn't say the word I loved you is a coercive measure or a way to manipulate or to get what you want. That's not what that is. He's just misusing the word.
- [97:00]
Caller 2
Right? Yeah. I just hate, I hate when people, like, say that. I'm like, don't disrespect the relationship that we did have and the good that it was with.
- [97:09]
Nick
Well, you need.
- [97:10]
Caller 2
You need a love bomb.
- [97:12]
Nick
You have the same. Like, your problem is being the healthy, emotional person is. Is like, again, you need. You get to. You got to get out of your head. You are, you know, and I say this as someone who's knows what it's like to do exactly what you're doing. You got to stop it. Because if I. Honestly, if I had the time, you would stay on this call for the entire day, and we would talk for hours, and you'd go get a bottle of wine and not smoke some weed. And you would just talk about it over and over and over and over and over till I said, I gotta go. And you have to stop yourself. You can't. You know, it's. You have to. You gotta stop. You gotta stop ruminating about this relationship, reminiscing about it, just talking about it. You have to let go. You have to stop thinking about him. You have to check yourself. You, you know, you have to recognize that he's popping in your head and you have to find ways to get it out of your head and think about other things. That's your problem. That's what you need to work on. The rest will work itself out.
- [98:14]
Jen
Agree.
- [98:14]
Nick
Okay. But I commend you for going on that date. That's the start. And. And just check yourself from talking with yourself about him or talking with your friends, you know, or even your therapist.
- [98:28]
Caller 2
I think the time has come. Yeah. I think the time has come to, like, what? Like, stop. We've talked about it. Let's stop talking about it now.
- [98:35]
Nick
Yeah.
- [98:35]
Caller 2
And let's just see what happens in life.
- [98:37]
Nick
Okay. All right. Well, sounds like you're doing pretty good. Good. I'm sorry you're going through this and.
- [98:42]
Caller 2
Just make it so you make it.
- [98:44]
Nick
It'll. It'll work itself out. It really will. If he continue to make healthy choices. He. He either will or he won't. And that will. And that will figure. And that will be the deciding factor. And he's. He's not your responsibility.
- [98:57]
Caller 1
No.
- [98:57]
Caller 2
Not my problem anymore.
- [98:58]
Nick
Okay. All right. Well, good to meet you. Take care. And you will have a good rest of your day.
- [99:03]
Caller 2
You too.
- [99:04]
Nick
All right. Bye. Bye, Sam.