Natalie (2:18)

Oh, okay. I'm not familiar. Is it like a known actor, like, that they're pretending to be.

Melissa (2:22)

Yeah.

Sister (2:23)

His name is.

Natalie (2:24)

Okay.

Sister (2:25)

A million percent. It's not. Yeah, yeah.

Natalie (2:27)

Okay. What conversations have you had with your mom?

Sister (2:32)

Okay, so first of all, it's also hard because she's only confiding in me. You know, I've got a brother, a sister, and we're. We're close. She's married to my dad for over 35 years. You know, we're a close family. It's, like, totally weird, and I don't know why she's only told me this, but she just called me one day a few weeks ago and was, like, very te he about it. And she was like, I think only you could understand this. And I don't know, she loops me in with this type of behavior for some reason.

Natalie (3:04)

And then she's no longer married to your dad.

Sister (3:07)

No, she is.

Natalie (3:08)

She's still married.

Sister (3:09)

She is, yeah. Married, like, over 35 years. Yeah.

Natalie (3:12)

Okay.

Sister (3:13)

Yeah. Which is like a extra element of.

Natalie (3:16)

So your mom's, like, having an affair with a catfish. Yeah, okay.

Sister (3:21)

Like. Yeah. And so she starts to tell me this story about how she watches these shows. She's gotten, like, hooked on these shows, I should say. My mom has addictive personality disorder. It started when I was a kid with alcohol, and. And then she got clean off that, and then she turned to other substances that she turned to gambling. She turned to Sons of Anarchy for a while. That was her first kind of, like, obsession with the guy from that. Then that turned to Pete Davidson for a while. And then she's gotten obsessed with a lot of actors, turned into Bad Bunny, turned into, like. And she goes down these, like. It's so weird if you met. I mean, like, my mom, it's very strange who she becomes obsessed with, but I guess it's this addictive side of her. And now she found this show that you have to subscribe to, which I also don't know is if that's, like, a scam or not the type of subscription it is. But she found this guy, and she thinks that she found his private messaging, which is not him. I've done my research. There's, like, 30 pages claiming to be this guy, at least. So lots of imposters. And if you go to these people, you know, all these 30 pages of this guy, they all have, like, you know, 11 friends. And the friends are all, you know, much older women that are clearly the, you know, the victims that go for this guy.

Natalie (4:45)

So what have you. Have you confronted your mom yet? Or have you Just listened at this point.

Sister (4:51)

Well, I. I listened at first, and it's really tricky to talk to her because she's got a lot of, like, personality kind of issues. You know, she's like, really tough, like bipolar and narcissistic personality disorder. And I was, like, raised with, like that, so I've always been walking on eggshells with her. So I'm always really careful not to, like, have arguments with her. And she was clearly divulging some heavy stuff with me, so I let her talk. It was really. I couldn't. I couldn't let it go. So, I mean, I said, I don't think you're talking to him. My first question was, of course, did you give him money?

Natalie (5:29)

And she said, no, that doesn't happen for a while.

Sister (5:33)

Right. I did later find out that he. That he asked. And I mean, things progressed after I sent you the email, which we can get to. But yeah, so she said, I talk to him all day, every day. He texts me at like three in the morning. And I'm like, see, that doesn't happen. The guy is 35 years old. Like the real guy. 35, something like that. Married with two kids.

Natalie (5:54)

Yeah. And I'm sure his story, when she asked if. Or if she asked, it will be like, that's just for show. That's his business. My. My manager team makes me do that. It's like, I. I know this because people have pretended to be me, and it's a real kind of shitty situation. Yeah. And I've had people. Yeah. Think they were in relationships with me, and it sucks. And. Yeah. It's. It's like kind of an epidemic out. Listen, your mom's being taken advantage of. She's older, lonely, whatever, you know, and this. What, more than anything, it doesn't really matter who's behind the screen. She has someone who she's building a relationship with who makes her feel seen and heard and gives her time, and she looks forward to these random 3am messages that she gets and things like that. Right. You know, you have to under. Like, understand that when you confront her, that's what you're fighting against. Trying to take something that she's. For the first time in a while, has meaning. That being said, you know, I. I wouldn't even say. I don't think. I would just say, this is not a real person. It's. You're. You're being scammed. You do have to try to empathize with, like. I get why it's fun. I. You know, because, like, a Lot. A lot of the people in your mom's position. And listen, like, your mom, you know, older, has some personality disorders. She sounds like real susceptible being a victim. But there are a lot of, like, young cape, you know, seemingly normal people like your age who also get scammed by these people. And I think it all comes from a place of loneliness. One of the people who thought they were in a relationship with me, when they. She, like, confronted me, and it was like a kind of a scary, uncomfortable situation. And she kept telling me, I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. And it was sad. I was like, listen, I know you're not crazy, but I need you to recognize that what you're doing in this moment is because she had, like, showed up at my house. And that in itself is a crazy act, you know? Right. So, like, yeah, your mom's not going to give up easily, in my experience. What have you. What have you thought about telling your dad?

Sister (7:57)

So what happened was, you know, I went. I've got. You know, I went with my family, my husband and my kids to Visit them for July 4th and noticed I saw her texting with him and she downloaded, like, a weird app that he had her download to, like, text with. And I noticed all day, every day they were talking, and it was really upsetting to me. And when I put my kids to bed, I came downstairs and I walked in to that my dad confronting her. So he had. He had found out because of some charges. Some charges because he was, you know, watching, you know, their finances. And I think the charges that were coming through, which they won't, you know, I don't know how much. I think it was hundreds, though. It was through this, like, subscription scam and also for these, like, shows. And they are also like, oh, it's so cringe because they're so raunchy. Oh, it's. Anyway, I mean, let her live, right? But. Wow. But it was a lot of money and then some other types of scams that he was having her pay for. So I walked in on the confrontation and I was able then to. Well, it was awkward. I kind of walked away from it, but they both saw me. So when they separated, I was able to talk to them one by one, separately. It was a very heavy evening for me, but I spoke to my dad first, and I was like, are you okay? And, what is going on? And I let him talk, and he was really upset and was like, maybe I should. Maybe I should go find a motel until she figures this out. I don't know. I don't know what she's looking for. I don't know. I mean, how she doesn't see this and, you know, and I gotta go take all of her devices now to the Apple store and get all this wiped off and, you know, try to get these charges reversed. And he was just like, livid. So I was just trying to calm him down. And then I worked on my mom next. Embarrassment on her is not pretty.

Natalie (9:58)

Well, it's good. It's good that your dad knows. Who cares?

Sister (10:01)

I mean, I was definitely relieved that I walked in on that. As awkward as it was, because it allowed for me to try to mediate a little bit, you know, because that was one bit of it that was extra hard, was like being the only one knowing in the family, you know?

Natalie (10:18)

Yeah. You said that your mom embarrassed is not a good situation. What do you mean by that? I mean, I mean, I can guess, but.

Sister (10:25)

Well, just like with, with her type of, like, mood disorders, like, embarrassment on her is like even worse than just pure anger or anything else. Like, the way that she acts if she's embarrassed is just like very icy and like, very hard to deal with.

Natalie (10:43)

What is, what is your dad gonna do about this? I honestly think your, your energy is better focused on your dad and making sure that one, he is okay and that he feels supported and like you and your dad, if he needs help, you know.

Sister (10:59)

Yeah.

Natalie (10:59)

What do we do about mom, so to speak. I don't know if this is enough for your dad to want to, like, think about his relationship with his wife. I don't know. I'm guessing after this many years of marriage, like, something like this isn't going to like, make him file for divorce, you know, and then obviously there's your mom's mental health to consider, but your mom is, you know, A, at danger and B, financially putting your dad at danger as well. So, like, your dad does need to make, I think, drastic steps to like, make sure that your mom, who, let's assume, can't be trusted when it comes to, like, is she actually going to engage with this man or not? And he just has to do everything, he has to do everything possible to try to stop her.

Sister (11:39)

Right.

Natalie (11:39)

And then you have to try to deal with mom however you guys try to deal with her, you know, but in my experience, she is not going to stop easily. And again, just from an empathetic point of view, it is because, like, she just feels this is probably the most exciting thing that's happened to her in a while.

Sister (11:58)

I know. And she's gonna just also be onto something else as well. She's gonna be looking for the next fix, you know, so that, I mean, there's gonna be a void when this is all over, you know. But I did, I did tell her.

Natalie (12:10)

Well, tell her, tell her to get into like, a messy Reddit blog with a bunch of like, other women who have similar interests in the smut that she's reading. I mean, she can do that. I mean, that can has, you know, at least she's not getting catfished by someone trying to steal her money and having an emotional relationship with someone who's not her husband. I mean, like, if it's about channeling your mom's, like, energy, there are communities online that, well, you know, we can argue whether they're toxic or they have, they have their own issues, you know, because most of those things do. But that's still a better trade off than what she's doing now.

Sister (12:47)

They have a really, really, really complicated relationship, my parents. And her addictions are really extremely deep. So it's. I don't know, it's really complicated. But I will say just hours after she initially told me, it took me just seconds to find hard proof that it wasn't obviously him. And I showed it to her immediately. And so I did tell my dad. Like, one of the first things I said when I sat down with him was, I'm glad that you know, that we can talk about this, but I want to tell you that I did, you know, I did tell her several times it wasn't him. I showed her. I showed her and I was trying to, you know, and she wasn't listening. And then I was just, just kind of like desperately trying to tell my dad. Like, I tried for you, I tried.

Natalie (13:30)

I'm pretty sure I recently saw a magazine cover with Keanu Reeves on it. And I don't know, like, you search Keanu Reeves ghost catfishing, you'll probably find it some. Maybe it was the New York Times. I. I don't know. Maybe it was a time. I don't know who did it, but it was, it was about this whole situation. It was about this, like, scamming industry of people online pretending to be celebrities and things like that and how they're stealing money. Maybe you can one, educate yourself and become familiar with this thing that is like shockingly common and prevalent right now. Maybe it's something you can show your mom. Being like, this is, this is a thing. Like you're just being scammed, right? What you don't want to do is tell your mom that a guy like him would never talk to a woman like her. I think you want to stay away from messaging like that. That's just going to be hurtful. It's going to want to prove you wrong. You know what I'm saying? It's just. That is not going to get her, I'm sure. You know, I would stop saying it if you said it.

Sister (14:25)

Okay.

Natalie (14:26)

That is not going to make her do what you want to do.

Sister (14:30)

All right, I did say it.

Natalie (14:32)

I understand. But it's just more like this. Again, she is a victim. She is a victim here of a situation, and she just has to see that, like, she is if she wants to feel seen. Maybe she can find a community in other women who. Or people who have been scammed. But, like, she needs to see that this is a thing, that, that this is a prevalent problem, that she's not the only one being scammed. She needs to see that. Like, she needs to see it for what it is and not, you know, like, you don't. And not be convinced that a, you know, someone as young, as handsome as this actor would actually date someone like your mom.

Sister (15:06)

Right. And, you know, he told her several times how he was leaving his wife, you know, like, that whole thing, the whole, the whole thing. And she just was. It was hard to see how vulnerable she was. I mean, it was really like a mental trip for me. Like, you know, it was really hard to see her fall so easily for something like this, you know?

Natalie (15:27)

Yeah, I mean, listen, people are fooled. It was everyone's lonely.

Sister (15:30)

As hard as her, as her daughter.

Natalie (15:31)

To see that people are lonely. You know, when we're lonely, we want connection. And the Internet offers a lot of opportunities for people who are scamming people, people who are looking for some kind of connection and, and, and, and to not feel lonely, it comes from that place. So I think you just. You and your dad have to give your mom grace when it comes to under, like to understand the why your mom did this or how this could happen. That's the why. So that's pretty simple to figure out. And now it's trying to get your mom to a place where she accepts reality and stops putting herself and your dad at risk. And I think you just have to, like, again, I would try to find that article. I would do some research on this, show her that this is a prevalent problem of which she is one of many victims. And I think that's a better way of getting through to her than trying to make her feel like, why can't she enjoy this very fun and exciting thing that's never happened to her and finally has happened to her? And why can't you just let her be happy and yada yada by telling her she's not? And you're trying to do that by telling her she's not good enough is definitely not the way to go about it.

Sister (16:42)

No, for sure. Yeah, that's true. And then after, like I said, after all of this fades, I gotta talk to my dad about the concern about the moment that we've created this void now, there's now gonna be a void where she spent all the time with this guy. She's gonna be looking for her next addiction. And that's, that's just like, you know, her pattern too. So even, I mean, I don't know.

Natalie (17:08)

I don't know about your parents marriage, but like again, your mom does feel lonely. I'm not trying to put this all on your dad or anything and I'm sure there's a lot of, you know, years of history and your mom's mental health problems, but like he needs to figure out how he can still be a husband to his wife and figure out that connection or like otherwise or free himself from ultimately as a lifetime being a caretaker of someone who's just, you know, I don't know, putting him at risk. It's. It's a, it's a tough situation. I'm really sorry your family's going through this. It sucks.

Sister (17:40)

Did you ever go on your platforms and like announce like about imposters or anything? Like, did you have to go that far about the people who were trying to be you or pretending to be?

Natalie (17:50)

You know, I mean, I think I one time I posted that, but it doesn't really seem to go anywhere because again, the people that they're faking out aren't looking for that. And then again, I'm sure like these people have built in excuses and talk tracks of like why when they say oh like, you know, they would say like that the person pretending to be me would say that Natalie is like a fake girlfriend and that like I'm being held hostage by my management team. And like they talk about like Hollywood and the entertainment industry is this like spooky thing. And for people who like don't have a glimpse into, I don't know what feels like a fantasy in terms of Hollywood and celebrity and being on TV or social media, it all seems kind of fantastical and believable for people who really know nothing about that. And it also like Yeah, I guess maybe that just sounds great. I never thought about that. You know, it's. And so, yeah, I never did that because again, those like, that's not the people I'm reaching by posting that.

Sister (18:49)

Right.

Natalie (18:49)

You know, and if they saw it, they would go back to the person pretending to be me or you know, and say, and they would have a. Some reason to. You and I. Sounds crazy, but for the person who wants to believe them says, oh, yeah, I guess. Okay, sure. All right. It's still like in line. It's. It, it's at least consistent with their story, which is that like every, everything that I post on Social is a lie and everything they're being told by this person is the real truth. And, and he. In the per. You know, it's like he's probably saying, I'm just so glad I can trust you and finally open up to you. And you know, I'm just like stuck. And, and that's why he needs money. You know, the person who like online projects as someone who is financially secure and, and wealthy or whatever, which is why these people still are able to ask people like your mom for money. You know, because they, they, they over time craft this very crazy narrative. It's all very consistent. But again, I, if I, I would do some research on this. It's. It's pretty prevalent and there's a lot of information out there about how, how it all works.

Sister (19:57)

Yeah. Because she doesn't really understand social media and all these platforms and stuff. So she's like very susceptible. Like you see on all of the phony platforms that this guy has, it's all older women and they don't know what they're doing. You know, a lot of them don't, you know.

Natalie (20:12)

Yeah, they understand their audience. Right. Like, they understand their audience. You know, they understand that's why they're infiltrating this kind of like rom com smut, you know, girl. Like, yeah. You know, these women who are, look, again, like already in this group are people who are looking for fantasy. Right. They are looking to disconnect from their reality and just dream and have some fun a little bit. And then in that group you have these predators who are trying to find the most susceptible to say, actually, like, let's, let's take this fantasy a step further.

Dad (20:43)

Right.

Sister (20:44)

So now what? Another question I had for you is like, do I keep this from my siblings who I'm very close with? Like, do I keep this secret? You know, I've shared with my husband?

Natalie (20:59)

You know, I would talk to your dad, especially my sister, I would talk to your dad first and make sure that he's okay with it. But I would encourage your dad and you to be as transparent with everyone as possible for the purposes of embarrassing your mom. But, like, everyone, just listen. If your mom is as struggling as much as she is, it's. It's all hands on deck. Everyone needs to come together to, like, you know, kind of like, have an intervention to, like, very support your mom, you know, because it's tough for you to do this on your own. And.

Sister (21:33)

Yeah, we've done. Done interventions with her.

Natalie (21:35)

Sure. You know, and it is your mom. So it's like, if we're trying to solve the problem, it's a lot easier solved with everyone coming together, rather than you and your dad feeling like you're on an island trying to navigate a very difficult situation that many people have a hard time navigating. Listen, I. I have people in, I guess, kind of my circle, friends of loved ones who are being catfished, who are still being catfished, who don't want to listen to reason. And I've had, you know, and I have incredible, like. And someone like me still can't get through to them. So it's a tough situation.

Sister (22:11)

Wow.

Natalie (22:12)

Yeah.

Sister (22:12)

I mean, I guess it's like so super prevalent.

Natalie (22:15)

I didn't think I even had, like, I even had neve make this person a video and say, you're being catfished and still didn't work.

Sister (22:22)

I love him.

Natalie (22:25)

Yeah, listen, it's. It's, it's. It's a. It's very prevalent, and I think you need to open your mom's eyes into what is literally an industry of scam and let her know that your mom is part of this. She's a victim of a prevalent scam.

Sister (22:43)

So I have to care for my parents both in separate ways, individually. They both have separate needs here that. It's just a lot on my shoulders, but I love them and I gotta do this. Yeah. It's just, you know, all of a sudden, it's just kind of a lot on my shoulders.

Natalie (22:58)

What's your relationship with your siblings?

Sister (22:59)

I'm really close with my sister. We live in the same town. We both have, you know, three kids and work and talk every day. So it's been hard to keep it from her.

Natalie (23:11)

What's the reason for keeping it from her?

Sister (23:14)

She's not currently speaking to my parents. It's more so they're not speaking with her. We have, like, some broken family syndrome stuff, you know, so it's just momentarily. It kind of changes month to month. It's just right now not speaking. And I try. I try to not get involved, like, get. I don't know. I just try not to get in between things. So I'm. I'm close with her regardless, but I just was afraid if I told her and then she said something that I get in trouble. It's so ridiculous. I'm like 39 years old. But we still. We were raised, you know, with an alcoholic mom, and there was a certain, you know, household vibe, and we kind of grew up with that and still have that mentality.

Natalie (23:56)

Well, then I would. I would invest your as much energy as you can in your siblings and your sister. And I think that's step one. And certainly I'm not, you know, definitely don't abandon your parents, but there do whatever you can, but, like, you know, it's not your job to save your parents from themselves. You can do as much as you can. You can certainly try, but, you know, protect the. The relationships that are the most meaningful and. And the ones that, like, need you, you know, and, you know, it sounds like your sister probably needs you and is willing to, like, accept that relationship for what it is. And your mom is, you know, your mom.

Sister (24:35)

Yeah, that's. That's true. I just have to. I mean, I was dodging phone calls from my mom, like, during the height of it just, you know, the other week, because I. I was feeling like it was too much the confiding in me, and I was. I didn't want to be too hard on her. And like, you. You acknowledge. You said to me, like, I was saying the wrong things that I kind of knew I was saying the wrong things. Like, you know, why would a guy like him and, you know, be reaching out? And she was like, you could say it. You could say it what? To someone like me? And I felt really bad. I knew I was going to the wrong places, so I needed. I was started to just, like, not answer her calls. So.

Natalie (25:12)

Yeah. Yeah, I don't want to do the wrong.

Sister (25:14)

I don't want to do the wrong thing by anyone.

Natalie (25:15)

I'm trying to do the right thing. When I do, I think if I were you, I would be direct. I would tell your mom what's going on. It's just you have to do it without being mean. And you always have to, like, understand that she is struggling mentally to see the reality. And I wouldn't plan into her delusion and I wouldn't avoid her, but I also just wouldn't Be mean about it, right?

Sister (25:37)

No, of course. I mean, I looked him up and the first I was like, hey, you know what? You got good taste. Like, I tried to lighten it up a little bit. I had no idea who the guy was. I was like, okay, I see it, mom. Like I, I tried to be cutesy with her a little bit.

Natalie (25:50)

It's a tough situation, you know.

Sister (25:52)

It's tough. Yeah, it was really tough to see her fall like that so easily.

Natalie (25:57)

So again, it's, it's not that, it's not that surprising. It's again, she's, she's part of a community of escapism. She found that in this community of like these rom com novels and fantasy and smut, whatever. And again, like it's. Predators know where to find their prey, you know? You know, that's. Make sure that you can have empathy. You know, it's like, it's not, it's. This is not again, not uncommon and not all too surprising. It's just sad that your mom, you know, is a part of it. But yeah, I would try to enlighten her on how common this is.

Sister (26:37)

That's a good idea because I think people in her shoes is okay.

Natalie (26:41)

The people in her shoes just have a hard time thinking why would any. It's like, why would anyone pretend to be anyone else? Like, as crazy as we think it is for people to believe it, they have convinced themselves it's real because they're just like, what? I mean, it's so crazy, it must be true.

Sister (26:55)

That's what she said. She was like, well, why would he do that? Why, why wouldn't be him? It was just like so simple to her. Like she wouldn't understand that. So the perfect prey, the perfect audience, you know?

Natalie (27:06)

Yeah, forget it. You know, it's forgetting about like if you want to say things that are direct and reasonable, it's just like he's got a wife, he's got a kids, he's. Why is he asking for you for money? Like, it's not that he, if he wants to date you, then he wants to date you. But like why? What is he doing at 3 in the morning? That's. This is odd behavior. This is not normal behavior for someone who presents. Is very normal online. Like that's not matching up mom, you know, but again, the bigger thing is just getting her to see how prevalent this is. And then if you want to like ask her questions about like things that aren't making sense, just stay away from the whole like it doesn't make sense. Because he wouldn't be attracted to you. It does. It doesn't make sense for a lot more other reasons.

Sister (27:47)

When you were talking to your family member or friend who you said you can't reason with, did you try that tactic? Because, like the denial, though sometimes the.

Natalie (27:55)

Pushback even, I'm not that close with this person. So it was like, it was. I, you know, they, they weren't exactly asking for my help, so I had to tread very lightly. They were resistant to it, you know, but.

Sister (28:10)

Well, because I said, you know, three in the morning is even more inappropriate for just any wanted. Any reason. And she said, well, you know, he's in la, so we're in New York. So she's like, so that's, that's midnight. That's not that crazy. And I said, no, midnight's still crazy. And she said, well, but, you know, he gets off movie sets at midnight. So she kept on making. It makes sense.

Natalie (28:30)

So, yeah, that, you know, the, that you're not going to get very far with that. It's just really. It comes down to the money thing and the.

Sister (28:38)

Yeah.

Natalie (28:39)

And also, like, it's 2025. Clearly he hasn't, she hasn't. FaceTime with him. Like, what, you know, you've never seen this person. You should like, you know, hey, mom dating, you know, like, you, you don't know this person. You've never seen them.

Sister (28:53)

I saw her texts with him when, when I was there on our holiday. And I said she was talking to him all day every day. I mean, it was upsetting to me because I was there with my, with my three kids and we were there to see them and visit and I saw her on her phone. So I took my camera out on my phone and I zoomed in to kind of like try to like, read her texts. I don't know, whatever. I did that because I was curious and I saw her begging him to, you know, he was saying, I gotta talk to you, I gotta talk to. He was trying to keep her on the line. Keep talking to her. I gotta talk to you later. It's important. And she was like, you're making me nervous. Well, can it be a phone call? Can I, can we FaceTime? And he was like, you know, I can't do that. And she kept begging throughout the day.

Natalie (29:37)

And that's. That's the thing you land. That's the thing you stick with. It's just like, you know, it's not that. It's not that she's too old. It's not that, like, it's three in the morning. It's just that, like, why can't he talk to you? And again, like, enlighten her about the scam. Again, this, it's, it's. Yeah, it's very consistent. You know, there is a. There's a playbook that these people have, and it's always the same version or always the same story with different characters. And so your mom should try to talk to other people. And, and she will find. And if she were to do that, she would find that, like, oh, I'm dating Keanu Reeves and he's. That sounds just like my relationship. You know, and all the things they say, you know, seriously, that's the best way. That's the best way you can try to get your mom to see reality. It's not trying to convince her of these little semantic things of, like, why this person that you've never met wouldn't operate the way that she's saying he operates. It's just, you know, you're right. All right.

Sister (30:42)

Yeah, no, you're right.

Natalie (30:44)

Okay.

Sister (30:44)

You're right. It's scary. Scary how prevalent it is and that they've done it to you, too. I'm sorry to hear that.

Natalie (30:51)

No, you know, the Internet is a dangerous place. Keep us posted. We'd certainly love an update in the future about how things are playing out one way or the other. And thank you for your time.

Sister (31:02)

Thank you so much. It was great talking to you. Thanks.

Natalie (31:05)

I'll talk to you later. All right. Bye. Bye.

Melissa (31:06)

Bye.

Natalie (31:08)

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Melissa (34:09)

Good. How are you?

Natalie (34:10)

Good. What's your name?

Melissa (34:11)

My name is Claire. I'm 24 and I just dumped my boyfriend of one month and I'm wondering if I did the right thing.

Natalie (34:18)

Okay. Why are you questioning your decision?

Melissa (34:21)

He was pretty much the only guy that I had met who treated me very, very well. And I would say the way that I would expect to be treated. And so that part of things was great. But then in terms of who he was and some lifestyle, I guess, concerns that I had, I didn't think we'd be like the right match in the long run.

Natalie (34:46)

Tell me about some of those concerns.

Melissa (34:48)

So the first one was definitely lifestyle. I'm someone who is a very active person. I try to take care of myself, watch what I eat within reason. Like, I still like to have pizza and whatnot, but I just hair and I guess when we started dating, I was kind of under the impression that that was something that, like, he was mindful of as well. Like, he kind of said that he liked exercising and it was a part of his routine. And I'm not saying that I need someone to be like a massive gym rat and like run half marathons. It more so was. I noticed that he was coming home from work and he was smoking. He smoked weed.

Natalie (35:34)

Okay.

Melissa (35:35)

He was coming home from work and smoking weed immediately after work and then also before bed. And then sometimes another time, like in there. I knew he smoked, but again, I was under the impression it was only before bed to help him sleep. So I noticed that. And then I noticed he was eating quite a bit of junk food. A lot of money was getting spent like, like UberEats ordering out. So that was just one area that I did bring up to him. And I mentioned, you know, like, his thoughts around kind of his eating and. And if he is looking to get back into exercising.

Natalie (36:15)

How old is this guy?

Melissa (36:16)

He's 25.

Natalie (36:18)

Okay. And how does he look like? Does he look like someone who has been eating unhealthy for a long period of time and hasn't worked out or he's. He's like in generally good shape, but you just noticed after a month of dating him that he had some unhealthy habits that could lead to bigger issues in the future.

Melissa (36:38)

Yeah, he was in good shape. He would comment a lot about changes that he had seen in his body and how he wasn't happy with it. I was like, never making comments about that. But I just said to him, if you want to work out together or whatnot, I'm more than happy to do that with you. But it just. What I'm saying is I don't think it was really like something top of mind for him, like it is for me. And we were just kind of different in that sense.

Natalie (37:07)

Okay, so what else?

Melissa (37:09)

That was one area lifestyle. The other area was with, I don't want to say like temper, but he had a lot of conflict in his life and that was a pretty big red flag for me. So from the time we started dating to when we got formally into the relationship, it was like, I guess two months total of being together or knowing him. And first month I was like, meeting the people in his life and didn't see like too many red flags. But I knew that he had a pretty, I guess, intense family dynamic. His mom had left his dad and his biological dad was no longer in his life. There was a pretty tumultuous, like, upbringing there. Anyways, I don't want to get into like his whole family dynamics.

Natalie (38:00)

So to sum up, if I'm hearing this accurately, he. You. You learned about some essentially, like, family baggage, and then you noticed some small behaviors in him that coupled with understanding his family baggage kind of made you concerned about his potential.

Melissa (38:16)

Yes.

Natalie (38:16)

Okay, what else?

Melissa (38:17)

Yes. So, well, from that conflict with his family, I saw a really big ego. And that was one of the things, honestly was like the kicker for me that completely turned me off.

Natalie (38:32)

So can you tell me that story.

Melissa (38:35)

In terms of like an example?

Dad (38:37)

Yeah.

Melissa (38:38)

So he had gotten into a pretty big fight with his brother around this, like, house that they own. The house his brother owns is in his name.

Natalie (38:51)

In whose name?

Melissa (38:52)

The house is in the brother's name.

Natalie (38:54)

Gotcha. Okay.

Melissa (38:56)

Which is not my ex boyfriend.

Natalie (38:57)

Gotcha. Okay.

Melissa (38:58)

So my ex boyfriend was telling him to do something in relation to the plumbing because that's what he did for work pretty much. I guess the brother didn't listen. And I wasn't there when the fight happened, but when I got there, there was beer thrown everywhere. His mom was like, pretty much in distress. She's. She dealt with some like, domestic violence. And so any type of arguing and whatnot seems to really obviously trigger her. And so after that fight happened, I talked to him about it to try to understand. And he just immediately was blowing up. He pretty much was saying, fuck him. He owes me everything. I want nothing to do with him. He's dead to me if he thinks that he cannot listen to me and not include me in decisions. Like, he's an idiot. And he was pretty heated. And I understood, like, why he was heated. But again, I didn't see the whole context of the fight, but I did see the argument carry on for three weeks after.

Natalie (40:05)

Okay.

Melissa (40:06)

And I pretty much said to him, I was like, do you want to figure out, like, this relationship with your brother? Like, do you want your money back? Like, he just kept complaining, complaining, complaining, complaining about it. And his whole mentality was like, fuck him. You're dead to me. And for me, that's a really hard pill to swallow because that is just not how I grew up with family or friends, anything of that nature. So then I noticed that the fight started carrying over with his parents. He was going to his parents saying, like, you need to tell my brother to text me back. Like, you guys are always on his side.

Natalie (40:49)

I thought he was dead to him already. It was.

Melissa (40:52)

Well, yeah, apparently so. Then he started fighting with his parents about this because I guess he felt like no one was. Was really on his side. And I was talking to him on a different day. We were talking about, like, kids and family and stuff, like, a general conversation, not saying, like, we are having them type of thing. And he said to me, like, one thing I want you to know is that if we have children, like, my family's not going to be around and in the picture, like, I don't want them there and I don't want their help. And I said to him, well, that is not something that I want for my future. Like, I think it is a blessing to have, like, family around who can support and help you in that case. And to me, it just seemed like I don't want to create this, like, broken home dynamic, like, and have that mentality before I even bring children, like, into the world. So it was just more so a bigger picture of, like, how is it so easy for you to just want to, like, cut a cord with people when conflict happens, when you haven't even tried to talk something out, have a conversation. It just was like, 0 to 100, like, he's my brother. And then the next day, no, he's not my brother. I want no part of it.

Natalie (42:12)

Is he the oldest, youngest, your ex? Where does he fall in line here?

Melissa (42:17)

He is the. He was the middle.

Natalie (42:20)

Okay.

Melissa (42:21)

Anything else I guess I just noticed too, like when we were around his friends, the ego was there. Like I didn't even really see a friendship. It was like they were all just like trying to one up each other's careers and also talk about money and talk about like jet skis and like cottage stuff that they were like wanting to buy. But it didn't seem like friendship to me at all.

Natalie (42:45)

That's his kind of 25 year old.

Melissa (42:47)

Men though, I guess. Like, I don't know. Yeah, maybe. I mean, yeah, sure.

Natalie (42:52)

What, let's, let's. What about, what did you like about him? You mentioned when you first called that he's treated you in a way that you honestly haven't been treated. Like, can you explain that to me?

Melissa (43:03)

Yeah, like he was the first person who I dated who was beyond considerate. I have like been in previous relationships where that I, that power dynamic is usually, I'm used to, I think the male having more of a, I don't know, a hold over me. I guess I don't like to frame it like that, but the power dynamic was off and he was like beyond considerate. Whether it was, it might sound ridiculous, but like grabbing my phone, plugging it in for me at night, or I know if I was on the side of the road and like blue attire, he would be coming there, no problem. If I had said to him I need a new kidney or something, he would be like, okay, no worries, like, we're gonna get it done right now, I'll give you my kidney. Like, he was just very considerate in the way that he talked about our weekends together, considering me in the week ahead. He was very mindful of my schedule and he just cared like he really did care about me. He just wanted to really make me happy. And I did see that in a lot of his, his actions.

Natalie (44:14)

How did he speak to you when he was angry?

Melissa (44:16)

I think he would shut down, like, or at times get defensive. Like earlier on when I did ask him about his smoking and I did admit to him that I was thrown off by how much he smoked. We did get in a bit of a, an argument or more so a disagreement. And he just kind of said to me, well, I don't know what to tell you. I'm gonna do what want to do and if you don't like me smoking, then that's your problem. Which was also a bit of a red flag to me because that's certainly not like, I wasn't bringing it up to make him feel shame around it. The question that I asked was like, are you planning to get. Ever get to a place where you stop smoking? So it's hard. Like, we didn't have too many, like, disagreements. I really just saw a lot of his disagreements with other people. And I was like, I don't want that to be me.

Natalie (45:07)

Yeah, okay. I mean, listen, as far as, like, did you do the wrong thing, right thing? I mean, ultimately, I think you just gotta trust your gut.

Melissa (45:14)

Yeah, I do think it helped. When I did break up with him, the text that I got back, like, solidified my decision.

Natalie (45:21)

What did you say?

Melissa (45:23)

So I broke up with him after he met my parents, which was not the best. Like, there's no right time to break up with someone.

Natalie (45:31)

But how did you break up with him?

Melissa (45:33)

So we went to meet my parents, and I at that time was like, if he meets my parents, this is gonna fix the doubts I'm having.

Natalie (45:42)

Why did you think that?

Melissa (45:43)

I don't know.

Natalie (45:45)

All right?

Melissa (45:46)

I know it's stupid, but I. I didn't want to admit to myself, like, that these things were, like, as big as they were. And I was like, maybe if I see him, like, you know, around my family, things will change. So after I brought him back from meeting my parents, like, we said our goodbyes. I said thank you and everything, and I just cried the whole way home because I just. My gut was like, this is not right. Like, you can't do this anymore. Like, this is not the right guy for you. So I waited, like, five hours, and then I texted him and I said, hey, I wanted to talk to you about something. I'm feeling a bit unsettled about our relationship. Do you think that you can call me? The reason, just for reference, we don't live close. Well, close, we live, like, an hour away. But we had plans to see each other on the Tuesday, and it was the Sunday. I was like, I'm not waiting a day. I just can't. Like, I need to say something about this now. So he FaceTimed me right away. The FaceTime lasted 14 minutes. And I pretty much just explained to him that I'm having concerns because I feel like at that point, like, two months into this, of us knowing each other, I don't feel the way that I should feel about someone. Like, I just said, I'm having doubts about the way that I'm feeling, and I feel like my feelings should be a lot stronger and I should be a lot more sure. He then said to me, like, so what does this mean? And I said, well, I'm just Trying to have a conversation with you right now to explain to you what I'm feeling. He then said again, what does this mean? What does this mean? What does this mean? And I said, okay, so I think that we should break up. And he said, well, do you want to have a break? And I said, no, I don't think a break is going to do anything. Like, my feelings are my feelings, and I don't see them changing. Then for reference, he went on a vacation before we officially got together with his friends to an all inclusive. And so the first words out of his mouth after I had said, we should break up, the first thing he said was, I can't believe I was loyal to you on vacation. And I said to him, do you want a gold star? Like, I don't really understand what that does, to say that. And I just said, I was like, look, I understand this is a shock. I get that you're mad and upset and, like, this is catching you off guard. I said, I'm happy to, like, talk about this later if you want, like, once you've, like, thought about it, I don't know, had a chance to, like, calm down. And he just said, no, I don't want that. I gotta go. And then hung up the phone. So then he texted me and said, this sucks. I really like you and I'm confused and I'm hurt. I said, I completely understand that you feel blindsided and confused. I'm sorry that I took this next step. I felt like I needed to be honest about what I was feeling. It wasn't my intention for things to work out this way at the beginning. I did like you. I'm very appreciative of how you treated me, but I know that I shouldn't ignore this feeling. And it's important to be honest. Like I said, if you want to talk more, I can. And I also understand not wanting to. If you're angry, I'm really sorry that I hurt you. Didn't hear from him. And then he started sending me texts. Was it the smoking? Did we move too quickly? I'm willing to quit for you. And then I pretty much sent him a text back, pretty much reiterating the same thing as I did before. And his response back to that. For reference, in my previous relationship, I dated someone for about eight months, and that ended because he said that he didn't think he would be able to love me. So I pretty much told him I didn't want to get another chance. And he said, yet you date some guy for eight Months that didn't even love you back, but won't give this a real shot. It's probably in your best interest to have these conversations in person and be forward. And then he said, bye.

Natalie (49:39)

Okay.

Melissa (49:39)

And then I just said, you want to try and tear me down and comment on my past does nothing for me. You can be mad and upset, but if you're going to speak to me like that, I won't be giving you a response. And then he said, I miss you. Please give me another chance. And then I sent him, like, another. Same text, pretty much reiterating what I had said before.

Natalie (49:58)

Yeah, it's definitely not helpful.

Melissa (50:00)

But I offered to get on the.

Natalie (50:02)

Phone, like, I know, I know. Listen, there's no good. There's no perfect breakup. I mean, you did your. Clearly did your best. You were trying to, like, do the right thing. All right, so, like, what's stopping you from, like, feeling like you did the right thing?

Melissa (50:15)

Like, I know I did the right thing. I guess it's just a. I feel a lot of guilt, Like, I've never been in the a position really, of, like, breaking up with someone, and I feel like a bit of an idiot, I guess, because of the way he treated me.

Natalie (50:29)

Okay, well, listen, I, I. So listen, like, I said, my. Like, should you break up with them? Should you not? Ultimately, I think you should trust your gut. Right. You know, I'm not in the business of convincing people to get back together with. With people where there are some clearly justifiable concerns that you had just for the sake of. Of since I have you on this call and for the sake of what can we learn from this situation, so to speak.

Melissa (50:52)

Yeah.

Natalie (50:53)

When you told this story, I feel like I was able to empathize with his point of view better than maybe you were able to empathize with his point of view. Not again, like, I think there's a huge difference between a justification and empathizing. Right. Empathizing is simply understanding where a person's coming from. Right. Justification is more like justifying why you're doing something. Right. So I can empathize with why someone might, say, smoke weed or react emotionally in a situation. Doesn't mean I agree with those actions of how they handle it, but I can at least understand why they did it. Right. Because the alternative is being like, that's crazy. I mean, that there's this. I hear. I don't even understand why they do. That's nuts. It's not a coincidence that this is a man who you felt like really would do Anything for you. And that he's a middle child with some deep rooted feelings about his family. Right. Not his, his reactiveness and it about his family. I can understand why you feel uncomfortable with that and justifiably so. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't make it right that he's doing it, you know, but I can empathize with where it comes from. Right. He's, you know, same as like middle child. You know, maybe he just feels like he gives, he gives, he gives. And, and he doesn't feel like it's reciprocated. Now that's also important to note that, like, he doesn't give for free. Most people don't. Right. And so it's not a selfless act of generosity, which is fine because it's an act of love. You know, he wants that act of love to be respected. He wants that act of love to be appreciated. A risk of dating someone like him is that like, if those acts of love aren't reciprocated to meet his expectations, you've. You've seen how he responds to that and that. And that is fairly aggressive and a fairly toxic. And there's a lot of hurt there. Right?

Melissa (52:50)

Yeah.

Natalie (52:50)

And I can completely understand that why within three to four weeks of dating someone, you're just like, this is too much, too soon. And like, I don't know, maybe I got too much of a front row seat beat on this. I can assure you that, like, if you were dating this guy for like a year and you fell in love with them and had a great relationship and you experienced a whole year of this guy, like, going out of his way and treating you like a queen and really just like making you feel like a top priority. And then, and then you found out about this family dynamic, you'd probably be a little like less hasty about like, how he reacted. And you know, maybe just like in that moment, like, I get it, right? You just met this guy and you're just thinking like, whoa, Jesus Christ, like, that's like, you know, a lot at once, bro.

Melissa (53:34)

Yeah.

Natalie (53:34)

Because like, you know, if I an unbiased, if I were just like a friend of this guy, you know, and if he called in or whatever, I'd just been like, hey, man, like, get why you're upset. But like, it's, you know, you're, you're coming from a place of hurt. Clearly he wasn't trying to cut his parents off. He was reaching out to his parents to try to get his parents to have his back and choose his side. And Invented to his parents. They never had a side. So even though he was saying I'm done with my brother, he clearly wasn't done with them because he was trying to get his brother to do it. He just was handling it and communicating in a very immature and unproductive way.

Melissa (54:07)

That's the part I didn't like.

Natalie (54:08)

Sure. But that is just something he needs to work on and that might be something he could work on through therapy and, and things like that and, and you know, you know, so I've just, I could sure put it this way. Your next guy, whoever that guy is, will have some things he's gonna have to work on and there's probably a reason for him to therapy if he isn't already. And you're going to discover things at some point in the relationship where it's like, well that's some things you might want to unpack there, buddy, because it's affecting our relationship and it kind of makes me a little nervous about, you know, our, the relationship and going forward and things like that. And then how like uncalled for. He made that comment about your ex boyfriend. I don't think he was trying to be hurtful. I think obviously he was a hurt person who just was like he, he clearly put effort in this relationship. Put effort into you, you know, his, you know, the, the smoking weed part. He definitely, you know, well, I'm gonna do this and you know, that was a shitty response by him. A good response by him would have said, would have been like, I recognize it's a, maybe a kind of a dirty habit. Yuck. It's kind of gross. I definitely like, it helps me and I've cut down on my weed smoking. That being said, my weed consumption has never been more prominen been in say the past three or four years and coincidentally I've never been more successful in life. I'm not giving the weed the credit, so to speak. I think my work ethic and blah blah, blah, blah blah blah. But like it, like listen, like it helps me relax. Before I discovered it, I was more anxious and more agitated and more just on and, but that being said, you know, there are healthier ways for me to get to that place that weed has allowed me to get to. And I would like to challenge myself to discuss, discover those healthier ways so that I, I'm not smoking weed every day because it's not good for my brain and it's not good for my heart and it's not good for my health. And like I, I, I want to Take care of myself so that after I grow my family I can be around for my kids for, for as long as possible. You know what I'm saying? So I think there's a balance there in terms of, I think the least of your concerns are what you discovered to be your kind of icks or an annoyances with some of his unhealthy habits. He's a 25 year old guy. I mean God forbid, so he eats out a little fast food, he smokes a little weed. And the fact that he was mind, you know, the fact that he was complaining to you about like I don't love the way I look, that that's better than him just like growing into a slob and not giving a. I, you know, I don't know if that's.

Melissa (56:50)

Yeah.

Natalie (56:52)

Helpful at all.

Melissa (56:53)

Yeah, like the whole weed thing, like he would say to me how much he wanted to quit because it was an expensive habit and whatnot. And I wasn't saying to him like, I want you to quit. You need to quit for these reasons. Same with the exercise thing. Like he was all like bringing it up to me and regardless, like, yeah, I think a part of me was like turned off by it and I was just disappointed by it. Like he had to smoke before meeting my parents and I just was like, that doesn't sit right with me. Yeah, I mean so it might for some. For me it doesn't, it just doesn't.

Natalie (57:35)

Like I hear you but like I just, I listen. I'm not trying to convince you to get back to it. This guy. And there are non negotiables and there are pet peeves to me when I'm hearing your story, how he handles his emotions and how he communicates with family members and people he loves. I would put that in the non negotiable category of like, this is a behavior that's alarming and I'm not comfortable with it. And like, like, and, and so that's a real reason to be concerned. A disgusting habit that objectively probably helps him get to a calmer state and, and, and relaxes his nerves. While I understand it's an ick and it's a gross habit, you could date a guy who doesn't smoke weed, who doesn't need to meet your parents and he's like an absolute narcissist who like doesn't give a. About making you. You know, I'm just, I'm just saying like you're going to have to pick your, pick your battles.

Melissa (58:27)

Yeah.

Natalie (58:27)

And I've seen A lot of people break up with people for pet peeves that ultimately they decide out of the principle of it or it didn't, you know, and, and they just, it just doesn't sit right with me because you decided it doesn't sit right with me. I'm the same guy, despite, you know, becoming someone who, you know, enjoys weed on a somewhat regular basis. Was the, was the judgmental guy at your age who was like, I've never taken drugs in my entire life, and that's disgusting, and will never date anyone who ever does anything like that.

Melissa (58:58)

I've smoked.

Natalie (58:59)

I'm just saying.

Melissa (59:00)

All I'm saying is, period where I did smoke.

Natalie (59:03)

Be mindful of your pet peeves and, and your judgments and, and, and be mindful of the investment you make into yourself and being a better person and being proud of the things that you do to make yourself a better person. And be mindful of you projecting that judgment into people who maybe not on the same wavelength as you all are.

Melissa (59:22)

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Natalie (59:24)

I'm just, you know, because, like, you, that can cause you to overlook people who do have good core qualities who, who treat and prioritize you in the way that you desire to be treated and prioritized.

Melissa (59:36)

For sure.

Natalie (59:37)

Let me ask you this. Did you ever talk to him about how he handled his emotions centered around his family?

Melissa (59:44)

Like, did I ever directly ask him that?

Natalie (59:46)

No, like, yeah, like, it, it made me a little uncomfortable how you, you know, like, I, I, it's like some version of I'm sorry you feel the way about your family. Try to understand his family history. It's just like, why there's a lot of sensitivity around your family. Like, where does it come. I don't know. Just try to understand where he's coming from. And then depending on what he says is like, listen, I'm not a therapist, whatever, but have you ever tried to work through some of these feelings through therapy? Because, like, I'm seeing them come out, out in a way that does make me a little uncomfortable. Like, it, you, I can see your anger. I, I, you know, that I, I don't know if this is something that, like, I'm gonna eventually have to deal with, you know, in our relationship in the future. And, like, it does make me uncomfortable. I do want to understand first, you know, like, so you didn't have any of those types of conversations with him, and again, totally fine, because again, it's only been a month.

Melissa (60:39)

But we did talk a lot about his family because his, his, like, family dynamic was far different than mine. And so I would, I did ask him, like, how all the things that happened with his dad impacted him. And he just kind of said he tries not to really, like, think about it. And he has his stepdad who he considers his real dad. And as far as his previous dad or his biological dad, like, he's, again, dead to him. And, and there was a time where I did say to him, like, have you been to therapy? Like, would you consider going to therapy for this? Because he mentioned that a lot of his family members were in therapy. And he said, no, I think therapy is stupid. Like, a waste of time. Yeah, it just. And again, when we did have that conversation around his family and I asked, like, I told him, I said I felt uncomfortable in the kitchen watching the tension between, like, him, his mom, his stepdad, dad. Like, his brother wouldn't even, like, say hello or, like, look at us. And I told him that, like, I felt uncomfortable. And he was just pretty much said, well, you don't get my family, like, dynamic. You haven't been around, like, long enough to see. And I said, I get that. You're right. I don't get it. But I don't really know what to do with that.

Natalie (62:01)

Yeah, terrible, terrible response by him. Also, like, I've dated people who I felt like, were, Were very reactive. And I was like, you can't talk to me that way. And their response is, this is how me and my family talk to each other. And I was like, good for you guys, but I have no interest in, like, having that, like, be how my family dynamic is. Yeah. I mean, listen, I, I, it's not your responsibility to do anything, but if you were looking, like, just for how you can handle things in the future, you know, I would have maybe been a little more honest with him about why you feel the way you did, because the way you broke up with him, you were just like, my feelings changed, as if it was just some, like, random thing that he wanted, and he wanted to identify what that was. It really was centered around his emotional irrit. Regularity in his family dynamic. And yeah, he had a shitty. Which you kind of brought up. But, like, yeah, you could have said, listen, Like, I just was. That dynamic made me uncomfortable. And when I tried to talk to you about it, you, you know, like, you just. I believe in the efficacies of therapy and just working things out and talking through issues so that, like, we can handle. You know, I have my, I have my baggage, too, and my trauma, and I just think there's our healthier ways of dealing with it. And it just made me uncomfortable that you dealt with some of your, your feelings kind of in an unhealthy and unproductive way. And that more than anything kind of made me uncomfortable. And that's why I feel the way I do.

Melissa (63:21)

Yeah, I think you're right. Like, I definitely feel like I could have been more honest about the. Why because in the moment I was just trying to like, I don't know, I didn't want to be like, hurtful.

Natalie (63:31)

And although it was hurtful, you're already being hurtful. And he, you made him feel judged, you know, you made him feel like it was the weed smoking or whatever or that you just, or that he just wasn't an enough.

Melissa (63:40)

Yeah, no, I think it is a really good lesson. Like I wish I was just maybe more honest about, about all of that.

Natalie (63:49)

Because it's like tip, a lot of, you know, a lot of young men have that same like therapy, stupid or whatever. But you know, at some point he's probably going to learn that, you know, this, this is pent up rage or feelings towards his family is gonna, is gonna continue to bleed into relationships. And so he's either gonna have to deal with it or not.

Melissa (64:06)

But yeah. And that was ultimately my, I think, observation, which I think is what I should have said.

Natalie (64:15)

How long ago did you break up with him?

Melissa (64:17)

Two weeks ago now.

Natalie (64:18)

Okay. I mean, how much have you second guessed your choice to be like, no.

Melissa (64:22)

I don't want to get back together.

Natalie (64:23)

Okay.

Melissa (64:24)

I don't for sure.

Natalie (64:25)

Like, yeah, he's no longer your responsibility.

Melissa (64:27)

Enough of my own work. Yeah. That I, I don't want to have to like, truthfully for me to say these things and like talk about his behavior and whatnot. Yes, I totally like should have explained to him that that was part of the reasoning about as to why I broke up with him. But would he have changed it? No. Like, his mentality was so just like stubborn. Like, just very stubborn. And I just felt like he would shut a lot of things down down quickly. And so I feel like it was kind of like if I said to him, your behavior's the problem, he'd be like, okay, well that sucks. Like, sucks for you was the vibe that I got with a lot of things, so.

Natalie (65:10)

Well, again, he's not your responsibility. You don't owe him anything. And if you're not second guessing your choice like that, then I would just move forward. But yeah, I think in the future it's tough to be direct and honest. But yeah, it's a shame because it sounds like this is a guy who, who really wants to, to connect with a woman and be a good partner and probably give and feel love in ways that he didn't have with his family. And so that's a guy with a lot of potential. But right now he's just potential with a lot, with a lot of growing up to do.

Melissa (65:38)

No, that's helpful. I think now I know better steps to take, you know, for breakups in my future, so.

Natalie (65:49)

All right, well, you live and learn.

Melissa (65:50)

Not that I want to break up with people in my future, but, but listen, you're.

Natalie (65:54)

How old are you? You're 20. 25.

Melissa (65:55)

You never know.

Natalie (65:55)

You're 25.

Melissa (65:57)

I'm 24.

Natalie (65:57)

You're 24. You know, these are great, these are great lessons. So take your time and yeah, you're going to be okay. But yeah, yeah, just honestly, the, the only thing I want you to challenge yourself is just be mindful of pet peeves and, and, and non negotiables.

Melissa (66:13)

Yeah.

Natalie (66:14)

And bad habits can be worked through and, and, and you know, but how do they communicate with you and things like that and you know, just know the difference between the two.

Melissa (66:27)

Okay. I'm going to focus on differentiating them.

Natalie (66:30)

All right.

Melissa (66:30)

For sure. Because I know I have my pet peeves as well, so.

Natalie (66:34)

We all do.

Melissa (66:35)

Yeah, yeah.

Natalie (66:36)

But those can be tweaked and worked on or overlooked and things like that.

Melissa (66:41)

Yeah.

Natalie (66:41)

All right, well, good luck.

Melissa (66:43)

Okay.

Natalie (66:43)

All right, take care.

Melissa (66:44)

Thank you so much.

Natalie (66:45)

My pleasure.

Melissa (66:45)

And I've been a really long time listener and I just wanted to say thank you so much for your show.

Natalie (66:50)

Well, I appreciate you saying that and thanks for listening and just, you know, just keep learning. You're gonna be okay.

Melissa (66:56)

Thank you. All the best.

Natalie (66:58)

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Natalie (70:20)

How's it going?

Dad (70:21)

It's good. How are you?

Natalie (70:22)

Good. What's your name?

Dad (70:23)

My name is Melissa. I'm 38 and I am struggling on how I can support my sister who will not tell our parents that her spouse is trans.

Natalie (70:35)

Okay. Is your sister open? I. I guess. What is your sister's truth? Is she gay? Is she straight? Is she married? You know, like I don't, you know, what do your parents know about your sister?

Dad (70:45)

Yeah, that's a great question. She, I guess, identifies as bisexual.

Sister (70:49)

Okay.

Dad (70:50)

So for her, I think in terms of sexuality, this didn't feel like an issue.

Natalie (70:56)

Okay.

Dad (70:57)

So she plans on staying in the marriage.

Natalie (71:00)

So your parents don't know that your sister's partner is trans? Right. Right.

Dad (71:04)

Sort of. I. I told one of them and I regret doing that, but she does not want either of them to know.

Natalie (71:09)

And why do you think they should know?

Sister (71:12)

It's.

Dad (71:13)

I mean, it's hard.

Melissa (71:14)

I.

Dad (71:14)

So the bigger picture is that she seems to be really buckling under the stress of the situation, you know, and that's what I really would love some advice on with how to support her. And when she first told me, which was like nine months ago, she said that she planned to tell the family soon just to get support and so we could all sort of. Of come together and, you know, help her spouse and everything.

Natalie (71:37)

Okay.

Dad (71:37)

She keeps pushing it off and. Yeah, it's gotten a little strange.

Natalie (71:41)

So I guess I'm just curious, to what end does your sister feel like she needs support? And why do you feel like she needs support or why does her partner need support? I. I only ask this because, like, there's a world in which your sister is, like, I don't know, married a trans person that's really known someone's business. They identify as whoever they want to identify, and they don't need. It's not their. It's not their fucking business. So, like, this is my partner. I love. I love them and that I expect my family to love them like I love them or certainly just accept them and just love me and, And. And welcome my partner to the same. They would welcome any other partner. So I guess my question is, why doesn't your sister feel that way? Way.

Dad (72:26)

I mean, I think the issue. Right, it's not about gender. It's not about her partner being trans. It's more, at least from my perspective, how her partner has handled it so far, which I don't. It's hard. I don't really want to pass judgment on that because I can't imagine how it feels to be trans. But it seems like their handling of it has caused a ton of stress on her, you know, family and then also with her in laws. So it's. It's kind of like a whole thing.

Natalie (72:56)

Okay, is it kind of like your sister's partner almost wants people to know and then wants people to then accept them once their truth is out? Is it some. Something like that?

Dad (73:10)

For the most part, it seems like it's depending on the day. Like, it seems like her partner is pretty on and off about this, which, again, I don't want to judge that.

Natalie (73:20)

Process, but, you know, either way, inconsistencies of expectations are very difficult to manage. Like, you know.

Sister (73:29)

Yes.

Dad (73:29)

Yes. Yeah.

Natalie (73:30)

Regardless of where it's coming from. Yeah.

Dad (73:33)

Right. Well, and it really created an issue because my mom and I actually visited her last week and my sister wasn't even sure, like, what, you know, what style of dress or how will her partner look each day. So that part was really stressful because I didn't want to know this and then have my mom find out just by being shocked. But it did go okay. So that part's good.

Natalie (73:58)

Which parent knows the truth?

Dad (74:01)

My dad, the one I'm closer to.

Natalie (74:03)

And how did dad handle it?

Dad (74:04)

At first, pretty well. I just. I really feel bad. But the reality is I was nine months pregnant when she told me, so I was really stressed, really anxious. And I saw my dad a couple days after finding this out, and he was, you know, just like usual, like, how's your sister doing? And I just started crying, and he was like, okay, now you have to tell me what's going on. So I did. And he was awesome. He was like, okay, you know, we love your sister. We're a little concerned because this is sudden and shocking, but, you know, we'll be there for her whenever she chooses to tell us.

Natalie (74:37)

Okay.

Dad (74:37)

I think at this point, he's feeling pretty hurt that. That it's been almost a year that she hasn't told him.

Natalie (74:44)

So your dad knows, but your sister doesn't know that your dad knows? Yes.

Sister (74:48)

Yeah.

Dad (74:49)

And I feel guilty.

Natalie (74:51)

You gotta let go of that guilt, you know, like, you weren't. You made a mis. I mean, you made a. You made a mistake. It came from a place of love. You were nine months pregnant. You know, I don't know. And now. And your dad has done what I think is the right thing, which is to still respect your sister's wishes. And your dad is acting as if he doesn't know because you're. You know, he's. He's also respecting yours. He's trying to. Your dad's trying to do his best, which is to respect the fact that he's not supposed to know. And a lot of people in your dad's shoes would make it about their feelings and. And say, I deserved to know, and. And. And then say, well, I should have known. So even though you weren't supposed to tell me, I'm. You know, like your dad could have.

Melissa (75:38)

Yeah.

Natalie (75:38)

I mean. Yeah. I think you gotta let go of the guilt because it wasn't like you didn't choose, like, again, first of all, it just kind of came out in a moment of emotions, and it hasn't caused any harm other than it's made your dad feel a little sad. And I think Dad's good, sort of. Sort of? What do you mean?

Dad (75:57)

Well, the other piece of that is that my mom doesn't know, as I said, and my parents are divorced. But my dad's a really good guy, and he just hates that he knows this, but my mom doesn't. He feels like he's betraying her. But my parents are really different in terms of their, I'd say, emotional maturity and the way they react to things. So I don't want to tell my mom as well, but it seems like almost this pressure cooker. Like, the longer this goes on, the more my dad really wants me to tell my mother.

Natalie (76:28)

Okay, well, that's something you can continue to work on with dad, and maybe dad can get. You know, if dad's the emotional, mature person that you give him credit for being, then I. I appreciate that it's difficult, but, you know, I recognize the burden he must feel of holding on to this secret he'd rather not hold on to, especially because he's like, hey, I just want to love my daughter, and I want her to know I accept her and whoever she chooses to be with. And, like, why can't I do that? And it sucks that I can't do that. And now I have to keep a secret from my ex wife. Ex wife or not, I don't want to do that. Yeah, this is definitely a burden on your father, but he is the dad, and, you know, I don't know. It's kind of our job to sometimes to deal with some. And if he has to go unpack it with his therapist, he can. You know, it's. It's just not. It's not killing him. It's just not. You know, it's not killing him. It's an inconvenience. It's annoying, it's frustrating. I'm sure it causes them to, like, vent, but he can deal with this. You know, I don't know. It's not the end of the world. And this is also not about him. It's not. It affects him. I doubt it. I. I don't doubt that the focal point of this is not about him. And that's why he probably has kept his word and kept the secret, because he, you know, despite his feelings and frustrations and. And stresses it's causing him. He recognizes it's not about him. What conversations have you had with your sister about this?

Dad (77:50)

So those are a little tougher. I mean, at first, it was. To me, it felt bizarre, which, you know, like you said, there's different ways of reacting to this, but she was just kind of like, yeah, you know, this is what's happening, and, you know, we're just gonna go through this process together. And, you know, my partner wants to do this as quickly as possible and transition as quickly as possible. So, you know, that's the plan.

Natalie (78:14)

So did your parents meet your sister's partner before they decided to transition?

Dad (78:20)

Oh, yeah. So they've been together about 10 years, and there's a very long, not so great history with this person. So I think that's also part of it.

Natalie (78:30)

How have they not noticed any changes?

Dad (78:34)

Oh, we don't live in the same city, so my mom and I visiting last week that was.

Natalie (78:39)

I'm sorry, they just haven't seen them. Does your sister. I just want to make sure I'm. Does your sister partner identify as a she or he? So I don't. I don't want to.

Dad (78:46)

I'm sorry. Yes. Sister's partner is a she.

Natalie (78:49)

Okay.

Sister (78:50)

Yeah.

Dad (78:50)

Identified as she.

Natalie (78:52)

So they just haven't. They haven't seen her since her transition?

Dad (78:55)

Not quite. There've been a couple face times here and there that my parents have done with the grandkids because they have two kids, and in some of them, her partner looks like the cisgendered man that we've all known them to be. And then in some of them, they are wearing, like, a ponytail, wig, and feminine clothing, like skims. So they've definitely had some questions about that.

Natalie (79:19)

How are. How is your sister approaching this with her children?

Dad (79:24)

They're really young. They're one and two, so I don't know that they've had any conversations, but.

Natalie (79:29)

Kind of irrelevant, I guess. Right. The challenge part is, like, what you said earlier is that you're. You're not sure how your sister or her partner wants to approach this. Right. Because you're. It. It seems to change.

Dad (79:42)

Right? Well, right. And the. I think another piece of it is that, like, I'm. I'm a therapist and they know that, so they keep asking for my advice on it, but I tell them I don't specialize in this area, so I don't really want to give them advice. But what I do, like, my gut tells me that the goal of going as quickly as possible with this, when her partner says they only realize this about themselves, you know, at age 32, for the first time, that, to me, feels like we need a lot of therapy and a lot of good work there. And they don't like to hear that. So the conversations are a bit tough.

Natalie (80:17)

Why not about it?

Dad (80:18)

Why don't they want to hear that?

Natalie (80:19)

How do they. How do you think they receive that information?

Dad (80:22)

I think they receive it like, you know, this. There was a problem. After 32 years, a solution was finally discovered. And so we need to just, you know, full steam ahead and do these interventions and hormones and surgery and everything and just correct this issue.

Natalie (80:38)

Gotcha.

Dad (80:40)

And so that's what they've said anyway.

Natalie (80:42)

And I'm guessing that they're then maybe receiving your advice that you have given as resistance to their realization of who they want to be.

Melissa (80:54)

Right.

Natalie (80:54)

Like, as if therapy is. Is something to make them reconsider their choices.

Melissa (81:00)

Right.

Dad (81:01)

Which is compounded by the fact that her partner's parents are saying that. They're saying, we want you in therapy for a really long time. You know, we really. We've gotten 32 years and never saw any signs of this. So we don't think. Think you're correct in identifying the issue, which I've never said. I mean, I don't think that's for any of us to judge. But I think when I say, hey, you know, can you slow this down? Can you do some really good work in therapy? I think they view it as like, I'm on Team the parents.

Natalie (81:32)

Sure. Yeah. That's tough. That's a tough needle of thread. I mean, other than you could just simply say, I support you in your decision, and I just want you to know that. But I also think whether it's transitioning or anything else, it's just, like, good to always be in tune to understand why you're making some of the decisions or maybe just understand why this is something you weren't able to, like, discover earlier. You know, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe there's some other things we can unpack. I think you should get into therapy as a way to. To help with this transition. Not. Not in any way. I. You know. You know, when you say things like slow down, that is going to be received as, I don't trust you. I don't. You know, you're. You. You might be thinking about this incorrectly, you know, and then I'm sure they might receive it as I. It's already been 32 years. How much longer do you want me to wait? You know, so I think slow down, which I completely understand where it's coming from, is probably just like a triggering phrase for her.

Dad (82:35)

Yeah, it seems like it.

Natalie (82:36)

You know, it's just like. It's a. It's a sensitive topic, that there's a lot of different opinions, and I think it's always. We're all trying to understand it in real time. And I do think most people approach this topic with grace and love and empathy and understanding. And I think sometimes there's a little bit of, like, fear of. Of even questioning anything for being labeled a certain thing, because you're not just. Just on board, you know, no matter what. So it's. It's a challenge. One thing I. I think. I think maybe this could be advice which is given that you are a therapist. My guess is you're resistant to offering professional advice for something you're not professionally equipped to give. But I think you're missing out on the opportunity to give advice from the place of a sibling and a sister that they respect. Instead of saying, I'm not comfortable giving you guys advice professionally, you could say, I. I can't give you advice professionally. I can give you advice as a sister, but this is not coming from me as a therapist. This is coming from as a sister. And I just want to make that clear because I do think you're missing out on just, you know, you probably can give pretty good advice, and you can come from a place of empathy and love, and you're probably. Well, I think it's safe to say you're the safest person your sister feels to talk about, and she is looking for support because she also sounds like she's not sure how to handle it either, which is why she's coming to you for advice. So I would challenge yourself to not punt the opportunity to give your sister advice and just make it clear it's not coming from a place of a therapist. It's just coming from a place of a sister. And then maybe you could say. And then that advice could be, listen, I understand you don't want to tell mom and dad, but I also think you're not giving them the benefit of the doubt that they love and accept you guys whoever you want to be. And. And I don't want to make this about me, but it's. It's hard to keep your secret. And. And I do feel, you know, it is. Again, it's not about me. And I. I'll keep your secret as long as you ask me to. A little bit of a lie there, but whatever. As long as Dad's got your back. But I, you know, give mom and dad the benefit of the doubt. But, like, we're. We just had, like. Because, like, a secret. Secrets are so drained. Draining, you know, and it's gonna. It's obviously draining on your sister. It's draining on your sister's partner. You know, your. Your sister's partner. Like, do I. Do I present more like I used to, for their sake, to keep her secret? Or do I be myself and who I feel most comfortable in my skin? You know, and. And maybe you try to guide them down that path to try to feel safe and comfortable, to. To reveal that trust, truth. Then maybe start with dad, you know, since he already knows. And then maybe dad can help you help your sister. Feel comfortable telling mom. And because your parents are divorced, maybe it is easy to tell one first, then the other because they're not like a united front.

Dad (85:59)

I think part of it is it's like, yes, talking about them as a couple, how can they be supported, you know, as a couple, but then also supporting my sister individually. I think that's the part where I'm getting stuck because since this happens. Backing up a bit. She told me that her partner told her this the day she went back to work after maternity leave. So she was already hormonally going through a lot emotionally. They quit their job.

Natalie (86:27)

That smell.

Dad (86:28)

Yeah, like, like that's a lot. Same day they said, I, I've had this realization, I, I can't, you know, keep this in anymore. And here's what I'm doing about it. So on the one hand, it's really beautiful that my sister is like, okay, we're doing this, I support you. On the other hand, since that's happened and I guess since her partner stopped working and has just focused all their attention on this issue, my sister has taken on, it seems like all of the household responsibilities, everything with the kids, just really running herself ragged. And when we were out there last week, it was really tough to see because her anxiety levels were just out of 10 to the point where both mothers that I saw, both mine and then her mother in law both said to me separately, like, we think there's something wrong with her, like she needs an intervention. She needs some sort of, you know, anxiety management. And that's the hard part because when I talk to her about this, she just says, I have to show up for my partner, I have to show up for my kids. And there's nothing, no one's showing up for her. Exactly.

Natalie (87:30)

Her partner is. Yeah, I don't know what it's like to be in their shoes. And I, you know, but same regardless. She's not showing up for her wife, who has two young babies and is now supporting those babies, her partner and herself both financially, emotionally. I mean, that's a lot. That's a lot. And you referenced before her, her partner decided to transition you. There were some issues in that relationship, or at least from your point of view. What were those?

Dad (88:05)

I don't even know how to describe her partner. It's just been a very long history of aggressive, rude behavior, like literally screaming in grandma's face and yelling at my dad to serve them dinner earlier. Like, stuff like that. Just very, very not okay stuff. So I think that's also a piece of this is. You know, my sisters recognize that and thinks, well, that's because they weren't being their authentic self. And isn't it amazing that now they've realized this and they can be. And it's like, yes, of course. Of course it is. At the same time, I think the rest of us are feeling a little like, are we sure that this person who hasn't demonstrated the greatest behavior in the past will move through this in a way where, you know, they can still show up for you as a partner and as a parent and all of that and.

Natalie (88:54)

And is still resistant to therapy?

Melissa (88:57)

No.

Dad (88:57)

So they're actually in therapy now, which is good.

Natalie (88:59)

Okay. That's positive.

Melissa (89:00)

Yeah.

Natalie (89:01)

Yeah. Because, like, regardless of why you're in therapy, you know, like, I'm in therapy, you know, like, therapy, just, like, you know. Yeah, I. I think I would start there. I would. I would. I would reclaim your opportunity to offer your sister. Sister and her partner advice through the lens of a sibling and maybe try to guide them down the path to give dad an opportunity to accept them and offer. And it's like, to your sister, like, you need help. You need help. You can't do this on your own. Let people help you that, you know, and you can give that advice as a sister. And I think maybe you start there, there and give her the. You know, you're. You're. You've. You've been so brave, and you've done a lot, and I'm so proud of you, and this is amazing, but, like, this isn't sustainable. You can't keep taking care of everyone by yourself. You're not taking care of yourself. And you need to let other people help you. And it starts by allowing other people who love you, no matter what, to accept the life that you want, you know, and. And if. If your sister is rightfully so, thinking this is a beautiful revelation that her and her partner have discovered, then she should act that way for people who. Who want to give her the help and love that she. She needs, but she, for whatever reason, doesn't want. You know what? I'm curious. What's the part that your sister doesn't want to tell mom and dad? Like, what? Why. Why do you think? You know what? I'm curious, both from a therapist and as someone who's a part of this family, why do you think your sister doesn't want to tell. Tell them.

Dad (90:35)

Whenever I ask her, she just says, I can't deal with that right now. She's. She's like, I know they can be judgmental I don't think she's worried that they're transphobic, but just overall judgmental. I think she knows they're not the biggest fans of her partners anyway, so my guess is that she's worried that, you know, they'll have a negative reaction to any sort of big change or big news coming from her partner. And she just says, you know, know, they're boomers. They're not really going to get it, so.

Natalie (91:04)

But she's wrong. And you know that, at least for dad. Yeah.

Melissa (91:07)

Yeah.

Natalie (91:07)

You know, so maybe you having the benefit of knowing something she doesn't know to maybe challenge her on, like. And would she agree that dad's a little more emotionally mature than Mom?

Dad (91:19)

No. We have opposite opinions of our parents, so I don't think so.

Natalie (91:23)

Oh, interesting.

Melissa (91:24)

Yeah.

Natalie (91:24)

Okay. So do you. How do you think your mom would handle it?

Dad (91:29)

I honestly don't think it would be as bad as she's worried about.

Natalie (91:34)

So maybe to say, you know, just like, mom and dad aren't perfect, maybe they're boomers. I'm not saying they're gonna ace this test. You know, I'm not gonna. I. I can't promise you you're not gonna have notes about how they could have maybe, like, handled it a little bit better, but I. I think it's maybe getting your sister to acknowledge she needs some help and. And. And to, you know, because she's like, I don't. I can't deal with this right now. So there's a. You know, she's. That's a little bit of crack in the armor of her, like, speaking her truth about, like, I'm. I'm overwhelmed right now, and maybe it's just coming from a place of, like, I can't promise you mom and dad are gonna be perfect, but I do think you're not maybe giving mom and dad the benefit of the doubt. And I really think they're gonna handle this pretty well. Well. And I do think more than anything, they'd be willing to help you, their daughter and their grandkids, and support you in any way you need to be supported, because more than anything, I think they're just kind of worried about you. And you could say I think they're just seeing all the stress that you're. That you have right now, but they don't know where it's coming from. And they're honestly think they're. They're actually having worse thoughts than the. The truth. And the truth is, like, yeah, it's different. It's. It might Be surprising. It might be unexpected, but like, it's not bad, you know, so give, give them a chance because this isn't sustainable. You know, people are concerned about you for think quite honestly they shouldn't be concerned, you know, but you're, you're trying to take on this burden by yourself and it's, it's hurting you. And that's the part I'm concerned about. This, this shouldn't be hurting you. And it is because like, you're doing this all by yourself and you're trying to be there for your partner and you're there for your kids and no one can be there for you and you can't let, and you know, other than me. And I'm not sure, I don't, you know, I'm doing my best too. Give your family a chance to be your family. And maybe it's like something like that rather than being like, I don't know what to do professionally. So I just, you know, I don't want to say the wrong thing. And that's the challenge with this topic. We, you know, everyone's so worried about saying the wrong thing, so we don't say anything. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if this is helpful at all.

Dad (93:43)

No, it is for sure. And it's. I love what you said about just being there as a sister and not, you know, not as a therapist because I think that's where I feel really stuck is I think part of her way of solving this and of getting support is asking me specific questions like, you know, when should they start hormones and you know, when should they do this or that. And then on the other end, like her in laws are really worried about her and it's like, sorry, I just, you know, I'm her sister, I'm not her therapist and I don't have any answers to this. Yeah, you know, this is new for me too. So it's like I, I don't know what to say to her.

Natalie (94:21)

Yeah, I, I'm sorry. Going through this and it sucks because, and, and then just out of curiosity, I mean, I know she's asking you because, you know, she probably respects you and, and, and as a therapist, she's just like, it makes sense. But you know, I wouldn't go to an orthopedic for hard advice on my, my heart, you know, type of thing, which is, and I'm sure your sister can under understand that. So there are obviously people who specialize this. I'm assuming her partner has physicians and doctors who she can go to for this type of advice, just try to, I think, I think more than anything, be a sister. Don't be a therapist and try to convince her. Try to, try to lead your sister down a path that mom and dad. Dad, love her, accept her, we'll be there for her. It may not be perfect, but it's. Right now, this isn't sustainable. And you are worried about her ability to be her best self, to take care of herself, to be her. Be the best mother she can be, all while making sure that her partner is taken care of when their partner is. You know, whether it's justified or not, her partner is making probably everything about them right now. And that's gotta be incredibly difficult. Difficult whether it's justified or not. And in a marriage, it's not, you know, you know, it's tough. All right, well, I hope this was somewhat helpful. You know, obviously, I don't know for sure. Not my expertise either.

Dad (95:46)

So it was. I feel like I'm. I keep trying to approach it from like a clinical perspective and just hearing like the family piece of it of, you know, being her sister and encouraging her to lean into mom and dad's support. I think that's helpful for sure.

Natalie (95:59)

Great. Yeah, well, do that. You're a sister first, a therapist second. Well, thanks for calling. I certainly, I appreciate you asking. And obviously, you know, this, you know, these are relatable stories, more than people realize. And I think there isn't, there is not a playbook out there of how a family that wants to be supportive, that wants to lead with love, these are tough conversations. So thanks, thanks for calling in and giving me this opportunity to hear your story.

Melissa (96:28)

Awesome.

Dad (96:29)

Thank you so much.

Natalie (96:29)

All right, take care.

Dad (96:30)

All right, bye.

Melissa (96:31)

Bye.

Kim (96:41)

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Mom (97:11)

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