Nick (3:13)

And are you talking about career or are you talking about relationships or both?

Shea (3:17)

A little bit of both, yeah. So, like, can you build your career and also build a relationship at the same time?

Nick (3:22)

Was this, like, a philosophical, like, question you guys asked each other?

Shea (3:27)

And, like, I would say it's a topic that, like, we're just always, like, a little unsure. Like, can. Can we do this?

Nick (3:33)

How old is he?

Shea (3:34)

He's 31.

Nick (3:36)

Okay. Fascinating that you guys are both going from, like, more business to the arts. Both of you, in an interesting way, the. The path that you're both choosing, I'm curious, like, is it a financial. Like, you're, like, really chasing your dreams? I guess what I'm saying is it's like, are you less motivated by money or still motivated by money, but also, like, just choosing a different career.

Shea (3:58)

I would say we're both pretty motivated by money. So we both have still our corporate jobs to kind of like, what I say, like, bankroll our side hustles for now until we can build them up.

Nick (4:10)

Okay, are you both. And so you. But you both. Both of your side hustles are, like, entrepreneurial. Like, you're trying to start businesses. It's not like, yeah, you're not quitting your job of science and doing local theater just because you want to scratch that itch.

Shea (4:28)

Correct. I mean, that is the plan eventually. But when it makes money right now, that's like the five to nine. And I have a nine to five.

Nick (4:36)

Very cool. Okay, so just walk me through, like, how this relationship started and then what happened. In this relationship, I always. For me, it's always a red flag when, like, callers like yourself call in and Say things like, we started dating, we're no longer dating. He or she had all the qualities I ever wanted. Yeah, and so you have. And I'm like, okay, well, apparently not.

Shea (5:03)

Well, and I don't disagree. And that's why I'm calling in, because it's like, I'm also science brained. So I'm like, I only have a couple data points from this guy. So no matter how good they are.

Nick (5:14)

They'Re only a couple there, you know, There you go.

Shea (5:16)

Yeah, we started dating and things were just pretty good. I mean, the fact that we are having very similar career changes, I think brought us together. We're both very creative, but also like very math and science driven. And then to me, the piece that I feel like I've missed in other parts is like, I like stability, but I really like the idea of like, hey, like, we could up and move to Europe. And are you okay with that? He's very that way. But I was just. I've been kind of at my theater producing longer than he has. And I'm also more of a planner and I stick to schedules and he hasn't figured that out yet. So I could fill him pulling away. And I was just like, what's going on? And he brought up his friends and he's like, well, my friends had asked me to hang out the other day and I don't know if I'm going to do it because that's two hours. I could do music producing. And I'm like, okay, walk me through this. In my brain, I'm thinking, when I hang out with my friends, they energize me. If I just sat, you know, in a room by myself all day, that wouldn't make me better at any of my jobs. But he went and hung out with them. I was thinking, oh, maybe this is positive. He comes back and he's like, I'm glad I hung out with them so now I don't have to see them for three months. It's like, okay, what does that mean for us? And he's like, I don't think I can be in a relationship right now. And I was like, okay, how did.

Nick (6:41)

You know how this relationship. When you said pen pals, like, this relationship start?

Shea (6:46)

So we just started dating normal initially, and then now we're pen pals. Like, we're sending like postcards through snail mail until October 10th, which is this, like, date where we're gonna meet.

Nick (7:00)

You meet like on an app or like you meet through mutual friends on Hinge. Okay, you met on Hinge. So you met on hand, you started dating, you had you, you bonded over your mutual like dissatisfaction for of your, your current like career and trajectory on life and both kind of have an arts and entrepreneurial ambitions. And then that's where the, I guess maybe the, the similarities ended. I mean other than that, like what were some of the like when you started dating, what made him so special?

Shea (7:34)

I just enjoyed being around him. Like his energy is so positive. I come from a little bit more of a dark and twisty background and he doesn't. And he just has this hope and positivity about everything. He's very curious about the world, like very empathetic. And I also felt like sometimes when you date people and like they tell you things that they like about you, it's kind of like ah, you could have just like told anyone and this anytime he would tell me something it would be like very specific. Like McKenna, I like you because you are so focused, intentional about the way you're going about this career. I like you because of when you see the world, you think about whatever. Right. But we also talked about our future and what we wanted and like when we could like have a family. And it, things seem to line up again as much as it in like when you have only known someone for a short period.

Nick (8:33)

Yeah, I mean I think that last part's really important that you're, you're, you're always kind of throwing it at the end and then where are we, where are we now? Like where are we at the. Where, where's the pen pal?

Shea (8:43)

Yeah. So where we are now is he wanted to like potentially like see each other for coffee in this three month period and talk on the phone. That feels situation shippy to me. I've paid a therapist too much money to go do that and I was like that's not going to work. But I was like what? I like send you a postcard here and there. I'm traveling a lot in the next few months and so we're sending postcards and letters and we have like an October 10th we're meeting at X place at X time with no expectations. Like he knows that I'm dating other people, but that will talk about where we are. But he's also said he doesn't want to have to like build his whole career by himself. He wants to set up what he calls systems, like the schedules, the timing, the routines, the habits. That's my understanding. And then he feels like he needs like three months. Also in the back of my head it's like, is this going to take more than three months? Is it going to take like eight months a year?

Nick (9:42)

What is he actively trying to do? I mean, I'm not trying to steal his business plan. I'm just curious about.

Shea (9:48)

My understanding is he wants to be a music producer, but it's not like I know a lot about that business. And I mean, he's figuring it out.

Nick (9:57)

Yeah. I mean, it's such a broad thing. Yeah.

Shea (10:02)

But I also feel like he's like, pretty. He's even like this with like, his brother. It's like he. He doesn't. He kind of wants.

Nick (10:08)

How do you know his relationship with his brother?

Shea (10:10)

Because they live together. And so I like, saw his brother.

Nick (10:13)

Yeah, gotcha. And so what does that dynamic like, from your point of view?

Shea (10:17)

I mean, I feel like his brother is honestly a lot more like me, like, much more open with, like, how they're feeling. But it's a good relationship. They enjoy each other. But I mean, he's even told me as like, he wants to spend less time with his brother during this time while he likes, figures his career out.

Nick (10:32)

Okay. I mean, like, that more than anything, that, like, I think you just have to, like, take him at face value. You know, you don't know this man well enough to make any significant, like, proclamations about who he is as a person other than he seems like a generally a good guy. More importantly, like, in terms of your two compatibility, a lot of what you described totally get why it made you feel good. Totally get why it's attractive to you. But none of that really has anything to do. Nothing you describe from what I'm hearing. And maybe you left some things out have anything to do with how you two would be in a relationship together. Okay. Yeah. A lot of, like, what you described, a lot of it is it's like things you enjoy, like in a honeymoon phase. I mean, certainly as a relationship, you know, you date and you. As things progress. Like what this guy, if anything, this guy showed you, like, a key indicator of how he disconnects from anyone when he feels a little stressed out or he feels a little overwhelmed and his ability to, I guess, multitask on some ways, but like, yeah, just like balance his emotional priorities. He has shown, at least right now in this stage of his life, an inability or a lack of a desire to do that. Now will that change over time? I don't know, you know, what you're describing. You know, it definitely it ultimately, like. And also, let me, let me ask you, like, how good is your like, bullshit meter. Is this ultimately sound like a really thought out, crafted, sincere excuse or is it more just a really, like, at the end of the day, it's just, it's just his version of being a fuckboy, you know?

Shea (12:30)

Yeah, no, I, I'm with you. I. That's probably the thing that I'm most like, hesitant of. Like, should we even try to see each other in October? Because I've definitely dated guys that have, you know, just. It's like always the career, which is fine, but then it's like, let's not date.

Nick (12:53)

Yeah, his.

Shea (12:56)

I mean, I've really thought about this. I feel like I'm. I'm obviously going to be an unreliable witness to a degree. I don't think so. He's really laid out, hey, this is what my plan is for the next few months. This is what it is later. This is what it is when, like, I'm more comfortable having like, community back in the picture. I mean, I think that's where you said is like, take him at face value, essentially. I almost feel like I have to trust him until he gives me a reason not to.

Nick (13:22)

Well, sure, you can trust that. This is a person who is being sincere with his words and intention and he's not just giving you some very carefully crafted excuse of why he doesn't want to, like, settle down and wants the option to date other women while he's also pursuing a business. Right.

Shea (13:41)

He said he wasn't going to date other people, but I would never hold.

Nick (13:44)

It doesn't. I guess my. That doesn't really matter. Right. My point is, is like, you've known this guy for less than two months. You don't, I get, I, you don't owe him, I guess, the benefit of the doubt, so to speak. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so you're spending, You've heard, you know, you're spending a lot of emotional energy trying to figure out what you should do going forward with this man who ultimately wants to like, invest differently in this relationship than you do right now. And regardless if his intentions are sincere or a little bullshitty, ultimately, I don't think you allowing him to dictate terms on the cadence and how often you see each other and the manner in which you communicate is necessarily a good thing. Even if he's. He is. Has nothing but pure intentions.

Shea (14:41)

Yeah, I mean, I, I agree with that. Like, I was, he's the one that wanted to see me and talk to me on the phone. I was the one that said no, but I Guess is it even. And maybe we don't know this, but based on what you know, do you think it's even reasonable that he would be at a place in October to have a conversation about being in a relationship?

Nick (15:01)

I doubt. I mean, like, I find that three months is zero amount of time when it comes to things like changing careers and starting a business. Usually those are things that take, like, years to really feel. I mean, I don't know if I'm comparing, like, myself, like, it took me 12, 11 years to feel like, now that's a bit. I would say it took me three or four years to feel like, oh, I found something that works for me, and I have something here. And then, oh, shit, I got. Now that I have something. You know, as an entrepreneur, you never feel com. Like, if you really have that entrepreneurial spirit, you never feel comfortable. And, like, every level of success is met with, like, well, how do I either maintain this so I don't lose it, or how do I get to a next step? So, yeah, like, that's another thing to consider is, you know, maybe he lacks the perspective of what he's really getting into because the. The emotional bandwidth he thinks he needs to get things started is just the beginning of, like, right now. He has nothing to lose. You know, things get more stressful when you have things to lose and you taste a little bit of success. And so ultimately, he needs to figure that out. You're not his therapist. You're certainly not even his girlfriend. You're barely his friend. And I think, like, you can't make the mistake of playing therapist, of playing scientist, of trying to figure him out and being stuck emotionally trying to figure out what his intentions are or whether he's doing it the way you would do it. You met a nice guy who checked some boxes early on. Some of those boxes were based off of the time in which you guys met. And that's more a chemistry thing. I always say, like, chemistry is very hard to trust because it can be manufactured. Often chemistry is felt by sharing mutual things. Right. Like, people who go on reality tv, like, will feel natural, organic chemistry with each other because, like, very few people can relate to them, and they can relate to each other. And being able to relate to one another is chemistry on some levels. I think, honestly, it's more chemistry than compatibility. Compatibility is like, how you guys. Yeah, like, relating is a point of compatibility, but, like, that's more like, what do you do with being able to relate to each other? You can relate to someone and have nothing in common. With them in terms of like, what you want to do on a daily basis. And the things that you pointed out, like, oh, he really knew how to compliment me. That. That's a nice thing, right? It's like you're more describing someone who, like, I don't know. Best analogy I have right now, I'm always come up with food. But like, you're describing like a really cool, like a really tasty dessert that you discovered, and you're wondering if there's a really tasty dessert. Is this, like something you should incorporate into your diet every day for the rest of your life? And it might just be like a really tasty dessert that, like, really scratched that craving and that itch in that moment. Once you ate it, you'd have a really savory meal, whatever. And now you had a really delicious dessert that paired well with that really savory meal. But it's not something that, like, honestly, you're you Is really going to be good for you to have every day and might not make you. I don't know. It's not the best analogy, but like, it's like, that's curious. That's kind of what you have right now.

Shea (18:35)

He might have already negated this with the fact that, like, he got stressed, he needs this time away. And I deal with things differently, but I felt like he was a person. We have very tough conversations that are honest. Not like the easy, honest conversations, like the we're not sure we agree, but we're going to talk, like, talk through this anyways. To me, early on, like, if that grew, that was a pro in my brain. Also, the way we really like our independence, so I've always said, is like, I want time to go solo, travel on my own. I don't want to spend all my time with someone. I'm very career oriented, very driven. He seemed to match up in that way. Our past experiences with relationships, maybe things that didn't go well seem to match up and like, where the friction was around that. So, I mean, I hear what you're saying, but like, initially there was more than just like the ooey gooey fun stuff.

Nick (19:41)

Yeah, I don't doubt that. Right. But even what you just described there, it's just like. But how does he like you? You bonded over exes and. And maybe commiserated how you both felt in relationships in the past. Right. You were able to understand each other's emotional pain and frustrations in relationship. So, like, you felt. You both felt seen, you know, And I get it. That natural Feeling would make you feel like, oh, well, if we dated, then you would. You would be already sensitive to my plight of feeling like this in a relationship. Because, like, my last partners, I never even got that far to get them to make me feel like they underst. I was coming from. And this is a person who understands where I'm coming from. And also I'd like to see him naked. And like, usually it's only my girlfriends who understand where I'm coming from. So yay, win. You know, like, I. I get that thought process, but at the same time, that doesn't tell you anything about how he's going to handle himself in a relationship with you when shit hits the fan or things come up in his life. What he has shown you is that when that happens, he. He pulls away. And you know something I repeated to Natalie over and over when we were just like, courting and I was like, having my own internal excuses or whatever, not dating. But it's true. It's just like. And I think men feel this way especially, but I think people in general. But like, relationships start when exp. When. When. When you both accept that you have expectations of each other and that you have to meet those expectations and show up consistently for the other person. And with. That takes away your independence, you know, and that's a. That's reality. You know, that is a reality that he clearly sees on some level. Now you're just like, well, wait, hold on. Like, you know, I'm chill. I also like my independence. I also like to travel. If you date me, I'm not going to take away your independence. But the reality is, is regardless of how you plan on carrying yourself, and.

Shea (21:42)

We talked about those expectations. But you're right. I mean, to me, what I'm hearing and what you're saying is just like, we don't know. What we do know is how he responded in this situation. And we don't have enough of, like, how we would connect during a fight or all this other stuff because we've just never experienced it. So I guess the question is, is like, then do I even, like, do I even do anything? Or do I just. I mean, that's really the question is like, do I even do anything? Do I even do the pen pal. October 10th. We're going and having a conversation thing.

Nick (22:17)

Yeah, listen, it is hard for me to say, you should definitely not do this or definitely do this. You know, mine and Natalie's origin story, a lot of it comes down to her being willing to accept some things that she didn't want in the moment. And then eventually she kind of figured out what her. What her boundary was, and that got pushed a little bit here or there, but eventually she set and enforced that boundary and got what she wanted, you know, So a lot of it is this timing. I, you know, it's just one of those things, you know, it's hard for me to play revisionist history with my relationship. And, you know, had she set and enforced that boundary sooner than I did, would we still been able to work it out? Or would I have said no and everything up and who knows, right? Like, I. I don't believe in, like, destiny and fate, and I definitely think there are consequences to our choices and actions and things like that, but I don't. I think as a general rule, you're not ever putting yourself in a favorable position to get what you want to accept less than what you know, you deserve in this process. And most people won't wake up and just realize what they've lost or what they are risking with someone unless they lose that thing, you know? And so right now, when he says things like, well, let's just. Let's set a date in the future, part of it almost sounds romantic, but in reality, all it's doing is pushing you off. It's like he's just rescheduling a meeting that he doesn't have time for right now. Yeah, I mean, that's. And I mean, I, yeah, she's cute. I like her. She's really nice. I just don't have time for this right now. I really want to focus on this all being, like, very sincere and earnest in his mind. And. And he could really think that you're a great woman, and he could really, like, he. You could be his favorite potential person in any where. He really doesn't have any time for dating other than, like, I don't know, maybe like, flirting at the bars when he goes out with his buddies. But again, like, if. If what you're telling me is true and sincere, this is a guy who, like, this, thinks that, like, he can't or shouldn't be, like, even, like, bonding with his bros in a time where he really needs to, like, focus on his career. And maybe that's just like, his unique personality. Like, you know, you. It's like, often people describe me as unique. That, that's, you know, people often say that as a compliment, and it is a criticism, you know, and usually it comes with both. If you're unique, you're generally unique. And like, sometimes, like, that uniqueness Comes out and like, wow, he really sees me for who I am and really compliments me in ways I've never been complimented. And also, it's like, you know, he's so fucking weird sometimes. Usually, like, they go together, you know.

Shea (25:08)

That makes a lot of sense. Like, especially when you were saying that, you know, he's pushing off a meeting in general. Like, not even with him, but this is a conversation I have with my girlfriends, is like, do you think. I mean, you were talking about, like, the timeline of building your business, right? Like, do you think it's reasonable to start really new romantic relationships during that process? And if so, like, is it just, like, you mentioned, like, maybe this is just his personality, right? Is it, like a personality thing? Like, I guess what dictates whether that will.

Nick (25:44)

Like, it's such a loaded question, positive or negative, right? Like, I'm. Part of me wants to say, of course. Of course you can do both, right? Like. Like, it should. Depending on who you date, it could add a lot of value, you know, like, at this stage in my relationship with Natalie, like, I need her in my life. She is, I mean, God, everything to me, my emote. Like, I, you know, she is the person I talk to about from a even just straight business standpoint. You know, I mean, I have my, like, team of people whose opinions I really respect and are very knowledgeable and. And things that me or Natalie know nothing about. But, like, Natalie, you know, she's like, yeah, I bounce everything off her more than anyone else and things like that. But, like, listen, like, I don't know if Natalie, you know, if I woke up one day and she took the baby and the dogs and left, like, that would really. That would put me at a great risk emotionally to, like, you know, relationships are volatile. You have to be vulnerable. And the types of relationships that people say they want to pursue when it comes to starting a family and getting married and settle down, it requires vulnerability. It requires you to let go and trust someone and lead with trust and not skepticism at the risk of this person breaking your heart and fucking you up and. And making it harder to get out of bed and feel depressed for a period of time. And that takes. If you go through, that just takes every ounce of emotional and physical energy. And if anyone's ever experienced that before, you know, that's like, what's the one thing I don't want to feel while going through starting this business? That would probably be it right now. That's a very, like, dark and negative approach to, like, considering the pros and cons. But like it is definitely, you know, it's not delusional, it's realistic, it's something to consider. So it's, it's really hard to say, you know, well you should be able to do it. If he's just like I don't know, like if I were, if fast forward, you know, 18 years and rivers, you know, let's say she's a 20 something year old young woman and she comes to me and says Dad, I really have this idea. I really, I'm really. This is what I want to do when I grow up. This is like I'm. I want to be very career focus. Maybe someday I want to have kids and, and settle down, but this is what I want to do right now. I would talk with her about like well this, you know, there's things you should prioritize and if is right now, you know. And then she was like, well I also like this boy. You know, fair enough. But like, you know, we might have a conversation about like hey, be mindful where you invest your emotional energy. You know. I hope my kids are, are depending like my. When I think back, you know, it all worked out but you know, part of the reason it start. I kind of, I feel like my career had the trajectory that it did my freshman year in college. I left every weekend to go see my girlfriend at the time, I mean she took up so much emotional energy. My freshman year, like I didn't even have a college experience that most had I invested into that relationship that affected friendships, it affected my studies, it affected my interest in athletics that I participated in. And honestly like it, it took over my life, you know. But at the time I'm thinking I'm gonna, you know, I was a 19, 20 year old kid who was trying to replicate what my parents had, who settled down early and like that's all I knew and that is a reality, you know, it all worked out, I recovered, you know, whatever. But you know, it's more of a philosophical question that you're asking. It's just like could we, you know. So the philosophical part doesn't really matter but it was fun to talk through it with you. But at the end you're not going to change his mind and you shouldn't want to change his mind. And this is where he's at in this stage of his life and this is what he wants to do. So you just kind of have to accept it and move on. And the only thing you can do is to like slightly kind of play the game. Or not play the game by deciding, do I meet his terms in terms of the cadence, how we, you know, do I, like, show up at the future at the meeting? He wanted to.

Shea (30:13)

And that's what I was going to ask is like, so I go live my life for three months, right? I don't need to rehash this with friends. I do all my things. I mean, frankly, like, it's not like he's like, the only busy human. Like, we all have our stuff. Do I answer the phone hypothetically at a later date?

Nick (30:31)

I think the best answer is to do whatever the fuck you want. And what you need to try to do is stop planning for the future with this guy, because that takes energy. Live your life, focus on your business, get on the apps, date, do what you're doing. Don't commit to anything with this guy. Don't plan anything in the future. If he wants to plan something with you, it's like, you know, I mean, I, like, I don't know, maybe I, like, maybe I'll be available, maybe I won't. Like, you know, we're not obviously dating. So, like, I don't know, like, you know, call me whenever. Like, you were great, obviously. You know, it's like one of those things. It sounds like he already did, but, like, he. It's like when you play the game, right, like, first you have. You have to. You have to have that vulnerability, which is like, I always go back to me and Natalie. Natalie, very quickly, very, you know, early on was this, like, I like you. I think we should date. Here's why that was vulnerable of her. She put herself out there. She was like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Then she got the. The. No. And honestly was like. So she was bummed, right? But at least she. She stood her ground. She drew a line in the sand about, this is what I want. At the risk of feeling rejected and being vulnerable. So that's always important to do because then you walk away saying, like, I wanted this. Like, you didn't find. So then going forward, when you enforce your boundary or don't meet, like, their request, they. You don't have to explain yourself every time. You're just like, you know, I'm busy. You know, So I just think there's a middle ground. You don't. You just. You don't. You don't plan anything with him. If you happen to be available when he calls, pick up the phone. If you happen to be available when he asks you to meet up and you got nothing else going on, you don't have to like tell him that, but like, you can meet up but like, he shouldn't feel like, he shouldn't feel like secure in his planning for the future with you. And like, like, you know, it's like if, if there's an important meeting I have or a half ass important meeting using in those terms and I like, whatever. I was like, I don't know if I want to go to this meeting and definitely should meet with this person. I was kind of interested in what they had to say, but like right now I just don't have time for it. Let's see if, let's see if they're available to meet in a few weeks. And if that person's like, yeah, no problem. Yeah, that, that works. I feel I can emotionally kind of put that away. Right. You know, if that person was like, well, I, I honestly like, I'm available right now. I don't know if I'm going to be available in the future. But just like, call me then, like, no hard feelings. But I, I'm just not in a position to schedule anything in the future because I just, I, I got a lot going on. I would probably would feel like then that changes my decision tree. It's just like, okay, well, I still have to decide in that moment whether I want to keep this meeting or just risk the fact that this person's like unwilling to set a meeting with me because again, like that, that person who's unwilling to set a meeting in that moment is communicating their value and their, you know. So like, if you think of it in those terms, you know, I really, I really.

Shea (33:34)

Yeah, this is making a lot of sense. This is making me feel just like more confident. Like I got this and hopefully I didn't do it in a mean way, but I, I did lay that out of like, well, I'm, I'm here now, but I have no idea where I'm going to be in three months.

Nick (33:49)

Yeah, great.

Shea (33:50)

Like, who knows? And yeah, I like what you said is it doesn't have to be cut and dry, black and white. It's just like I go live my life if I have other stuff or whatever life has happened and in however many, you know, I'm not available.

Kate (34:05)

Great.

Shea (34:07)

And if, like you said, if I don't have anything going on and I want to answer the phone, then answer the phone.

Joelle (34:11)

Call it a day.

Nick (34:11)

Okay.

Shea (34:12)

Like it.

Nick (34:12)

In the meantime, we get out of your head about what you think he is as a partner and you don't want to do the thing that we all do, which is only emphasizing it. Paint a picture in your mind about who you think he is and take your brief interactions together and then like write your story in your head about how, you know, there's just so much to learn about this guy. And, and then again in these moments where he pulls away, we, that's where our egos take over. Right? So your ego is saying it's not you. These are valid excuses. Like you also have a business too. You're not being rejected here. Don't worry about that. And what that and, and there might be truth to some of that or things like that, but that is also your ego potentially lying to you and masking the truth. Because if you were just taking your ego and your feelings out of the equation, like I'm kind of seeing this, you would look at this more objectively and be like, I don't, you know, I don't know. I don't. He said some nice things. I really liked what I learned about him. He certainly made me feel good about that. None of that really tells me how he would be in a relationship other than like he's just like, he's good at being present for periods of time, you know, which is nice. But how does it like so much about a relationship is the consistency of showing up every day regardless of other priorities. And, and, and, and you know, like, you know, prioritizing what's in your life. Like, you know, like my biggest priority is my wife and daughter work. I'm sure she feels like at times is my number one priority. But like it's really, you know, it's, it's really just for, for them and like there are often like I just, that's always the priority of the family. And like I, you know that that's very clear in our relationship where things stand, you know, like on a day to day basis there might be like, you know, but like we both have that clear understanding and so much of being in relationship is just knowing where you stand with that other person in their list of priorities. Which is why I think a lot of people just have a hard time connecting nowadays in this age. Because like again, like we, you know, again, I, I, I empathize with someone who's career driven because I am as well. But like I think right now younger people are just having a hard time having their cake and eat it too, you know. And I think back in the day it was more like get married, like find someone and build a life together. Now it's build a life for myself.

Shea (36:43)

Exactly.

Nick (36:44)

Then find Something and then try to.

Shea (36:45)

Fit someone into it. Yeah, a million percent.

Nick (36:47)

And I just. And I mean, harder to do.

Shea (36:50)

Even my friends, like. And they're. And I. They're just friends.

Kate (36:54)

Right.

Shea (36:55)

It's not even family. They have stuff going on. But they've made it clear, hey, my friends are a priority and I will make time to whatever with you. Right. Yeah, it can, it can be done. It's not necessarily convenient, but.

Nick (37:10)

But this is where you, like, this is. This is where you need to be careful. When I see it in myself when I'm seeing you. Is this like having the therapy sessions in your head with yourself about someone else?

Shea (37:23)

Okay. Yeah.

Nick (37:25)

You know, you, You. I bet you could talk to yourself the next two hours. Getting off this call with me about how, like, he doesn't understand what you and I just talked about. And, like, it's so simple. And, like, you could literally be having a therapy session with him in your mind.

Shea (37:40)

I'm with you, but it's pointless.

Nick (37:41)

Very. Yeah.

Shea (37:43)

Okay, so is, like, a key to just keep away from that, other than you telling me, just don't do that. Is to, like, make sure I'm just, like, filling my life with other things, going on dates, etc.

Nick (37:56)

Yeah. I mean, right now, this is like, I wrote a chapter about this in my book and I could probably. I should probably reread it to refresh myself. But there's the, There's a time and a place to, like, ask yourself why? And ask yourself what? You know. Right now you're, You're. You're not asking yourself enough what questions. You're just asking, why? Why did this happen? Why? How can I figure, you know? But, like, what happened? You know, he, he, he. He doesn't have time for me.

Shea (38:22)

You know, he doesn't want to be in a relationship.

Nick (38:24)

He doesn't want to be in a relationship. He doesn't even want to. Like, he, he doesn't have to. He. He doesn't prioritize his friends. Why? It doesn't really matter the why he chose to do it, but he did. And the what Right now is very important. And there's a time for why I'm not remembering it in the, you know.

Shea (38:41)

I'll go look it up.

Nick (38:43)

Yeah, the what question. What happened is really important right now, and you're kind of ignoring some of the what and the what. You have more information about how. What he's doing now is more telling about how he would be in relationship than him saying to you, you know what I really like about you, and let Me give you some very specific details.

Shea (39:06)

Like that's I'm with you.

Nick (39:09)

That makes definitely nice. Don't get me wrong. It's like, and, and I mean I.

Shea (39:16)

I did tell him this when we had our last conversation. I was just like, this makes me very curious how you would be if anything else ever came up, if we were together.

Nick (39:24)

Sure, yeah.

Shea (39:25)

We're married, we have a kid, something's wrong and you're just like, oh, I can't right now, so I'm just going to leave.

Nick (39:31)

He doesn't see it that way. He's probably thinking, well, I would be different if you were my wife and my kid. You know, I don't think that's what he would. That's what he would think. But, you know, he doesn't know. You know, everyone, we always give ourselves the benefit of the doubt by saying we would, we would actually step up if this was different, if, if things were different. But we don't really know until we know. And I don't think it's an apples to apples comparison because again, he is not wrong on some level to be like, I can't afford for this girl to me up emotionally right now. I don't know. And maybe she would like, maybe he, maybe this empathetic, caring king that revealed himself early on is the type of guy who like, you know, has been walked over in past relationships, really emotionally invest in relationships.

Shea (40:17)

That's my understanding is that like he very much lets the other person kind of dictate it. And this is his.

Nick (40:23)

Been really burned before and he doesn't know how to balance that. And right now he knows that, like to do what he wants to do, he can't risk, you know, just being caught up in a relationship. That might be very valid, but it.

Shea (40:35)

Doesn'T make it any less valid for.

Nick (40:36)

Me to, as it relates to you, like, yeah, go to my stuff. No, that doesn't, it's not permission for you to make exceptions for him. And you're, yeah. Your best thing, your best course of action is to, you can be chill about it. You can let things play out. You don't have to set some like, don't ever call me again. Rigid boundary. But like, you just don't, you don't accommodate him trying to, you know, reschedule plans with you and have any sense of security that you are waiting around or that you were available that he, you know, that it's, you know, call me when you're free. I may or may not be around. I like it. Okay.

Shea (41:12)

Appreciate you Nick.

Nick (41:13)

Well, keep us posted. I'm love to know how this was.

Shea (41:17)

Honestly, really helpful. Like I feel like I just need it. I needed that outside perspective. I appreciate what you said, especially in the way you describe like the setting of business meeting, pushing it off, that sense of security that you feel and asking the what questions. I'm gonna write that down somewhere.

Nick (41:34)

All right, well, thank you for the call. Glad it was helpful. Please keep us posted. We'd love an update on, on, on where things go with the business and this guy, but awesome.

Shea (41:43)

Thank you, Nick.

Nick (41:44)

All right, take care. Thanks for your call. Bye. Better Help people therapy. It's good. It's helpful. If you treat it like a bicycle helmet and not reconstructive surgery, chances are you'll get a lot out of it. But we also know how it can be challenging to jump into therapy. Certainly there are to consider. Sometimes it just feels really inconvenient and you don't even know if you can. It's also just a challenge to find the right therapist for you. Well, Better Help helps alleviate all those barriers into therapy. It is incredibly convenient. You can do it. All you need is a device, a tablet, a phone, a computer, something, and you can do it anytime, anywhere it's convenient for you. You can do it in your car. It's really based off of your time and your convenience. And since Better Help is working with over 30,000 therapists every day, you can switch therapists for free every time until you land you feel the most comfortable with. They also have a app rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. So you know it works. So if you've ever considered therapy or you've tried it before, maybe it didn't work out for whatever reason and you've thought about jumping back into it, BetterHelp is a great place to start. So check it out. Just know. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with Better Help Our listeners get 10 off their first month at betterhelp.com v I a l l that is betterhelp h-a l p.com v I a l l.

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Kate (46:17)

Hi, my name is Kate. I'm 30 years old and I need help on how do I handle my divorced parents secret remarriage.

Nick (46:25)

All right, so does that mean that your parents who at some point in your childhood who got divorced, decided to behind your back, reconnect and marry each other again?

Kate (46:35)

Yes, actually it's recently. So a little background information is my parents never really got along. They constantly bickered. Like the earliest I remember is elementary school. They would just argue. My mom would ignore my dad, they would just threaten divorce all the time. Like to the point where like they would actually contact divorce attorneys and then threaten the papers and different things like.

Nick (46:57)

That to each other.

Kate (46:59)

To each other. Yeah. So it was just like constant toxicity and like it would be right in front of all of us. And so it was very just apparent that their relationship just was not successful. And so this just continued. I actually have four siblings and so there's quite a few of us in our house. And so we would listen to like the arguing, the bickering, all the different things. And as I got older, so like middle school, high school, my dad actually started to like confide in us more and more just about like his relationship and like my mom's kind of toxic bipolar behaviors and the way that she reacted on things. And like we saw that as kids and we very much so like tiptoed around her because she was very bipolar.

Nick (47:44)

Has she been diagnosed?

Kate (47:46)

No. She does take like certain medications and stuff for like her anxiety, but she just has always just been very like explosive in her reaction and the different things that she does.

Nick (47:57)

Is there a consistent volatility when she is triggered or is it again, we're not doctors here and so I don't know about but. Or is it more like there are seasons or periods where she's just One person and then all of a sudden there's like episodes where it's more volatile.

Kate (48:16)

Yeah, she. It could be just like small things that just set her off completely. So it was kind of.

Nick (48:22)

But that's consistent.

Kate (48:23)

Yes. It depends on the day too. For her, like it be one day great, the next day not great. She's just kind of all over the place. So we all just kind of were on edge our whole life of like, okay, what personality are we going to get from her? And so my dad actually has owned his own business his whole life. And so he started like confiding in the different like financial choices that he was fighting from my mom to all of us. And I think it was out of fear that like someday he knew that, that they were probably going to get divorced, but he didn't want to expose like all of his finances. And so he would hide like different things from my mom about like the purchases that he had or just like the things that he would do in his business or how much his business was actually making. And so it was just super unhealthy because like, as I don't know, a 12 year old, I probably shouldn't be hearing about all of that. And so in high school he started to really open up and say the only reason he's staying with her is because of us kids. And he wanted to keep us all together in one house because it would be easier. And he was worried about custody and all of those things. And so their relationship just continued to be super toxic through college. My dad actually broke his leg and my mom just treated him horribly, wouldn't take care of him. I actually went back from college to like basically escape him out of the house because he called me and was like, hey, can you come move me into my parents house because I gotta get out of here. And then he exposed that he had like a secret hidden like stash of money because it was an escape money that he could take if he needed to go, like start over. And so it was kind of an awkward position for me to be put in because like, obviously I know my mom's personality is, you know, very toxic, but I also don't think that that was my responsibility to hide those things from her. And so about two years later, they ended up separating locationally, not legally, like no legal divorce, they just decided to move. My mom decided to move to a different state, but they ended up actually getting back together after that. And then eventually they divorced two years later officially. And the divorce was so stressful on my dad. That he actually had a heart attack during it. And so, yeah, it was pretty. Just. Just drastic. And my mom actually was, like, calling him and saying, like, I wish he would have just died after the heart attack, because, yeah, it was just very toxic. And so during the divorce, my dad actually has a pretty large investment that he invested in, like, years ago that my mom didn't know about. And they contacted him and said, hey, now is a great time to, like, cash out. And so he actually hid $11 million from my mom during the divorce.

Nick (51:11)

Pop off, dad.

Kate (51:14)

Yeah.

Nick (51:14)

I mean, so did you even realize he was worth that much?

Kate (51:18)

No, not until he told me. But then also holding onto that information, knowing that and knowing that he hid that, I just didn't know what to do with that information. And so flash forward to, like, a year later, I actually announced that I was pregnant. My husband and I were expecting a baby. And so my mom decided to move back because she wanted to be a grandma and wanted to be a part of everything. And so she moved back. And then during the time apart that they were divorced, my dad had been dating, just super happy, like, was just, like, full of life again. But once she moved back, they kind of got roped back together. And we knew that they were kind of, like, seeing each other, but we didn't know to, like, what extent. And then a year later, my brother got a text from one of his friends and said that he saw in the newspaper that my parents got remarried. So my brother ended up texting us and being like, hey, they got remarried. Did you guys know this? And none of us siblings knew, so all five of us kids, still, to this day, they have not told us that they.

Nick (52:19)

How long ago did that happen?

Kate (52:21)

Two years ago.

Nick (52:22)

Two years ago.

Kate (52:24)

Two years ago. Yeah. And so I think, like, right now I'm at this, like, point in my life. I just had a baby three months ago, so now they have two grandchildren. And just the relationship in general, like, it's very hard to be around and to be in the same room as them knowing what I know.

Nick (52:42)

So what do they. What? So they pretend, like, do they live together? Do they not live together?

Kate (52:47)

They live together now.

Nick (52:50)

And do they. You know that because you've been snooping or. They've been upfront about that.

Kate (52:56)

They've been upfront about that. At first they were sneaking around, and, like, my dad's car would be, like, not at his place. Like, if I would drive by and it would be at my mom's place. And then they ended up.

Nick (53:07)

How old are you?

Kate (53:08)

Living in the same house. My dad's 61 and my mom is 59.

Nick (53:13)

Okay, so what can I help you out with?

Kate (53:18)

I think what I'm seeking is like, like, do I confront them about all of this? Do I expose what I know?

Nick (53:26)

And well, you explain to me what in from your point of view, what the difference between confront and expose look like.

Kate (53:34)

I think confronting is just being honest about what I know. Right. Like, I don't mean to like out a bunch of different things, but I just think that like basically confronting them and saying like, hey, here's what I do know about you guys, but I don't know what to do about like the money financial part too. I don't want to ruin their relationship with like my kids. But also at the same time, like they're just super toxic and they still continue to be toxic.

Nick (54:00)

Yeah, my answer is pretty clear. My opinion is by all means confront your parents about like common decency. Their kids at a minimum should probably know that their parents are back together and married and like, like it's just, it feels a little like icky for your parents to not be transparent about like the dynamic of their relationship, you know, at least whether they're married or not married or things like that. You know, the fact that they feel like they have to go around and snoop in that regard, it just doesn't seem like that makes a ton of sense, especially if the kids are also talking about it. But short of that, but their relationship is none of your business at this point in your life. I definitely wouldn't stick your nose in where it doesn't belong. I wouldn't, you know, insert yourself in, in their relationship drama. You've painted a pretty, you know, colorful picture about your mom and, and you know, your guys ability to trust her emotions and things like that. And I'm not trying to condone what your dad did or didn't do, but you know, sounds like he had his, his reasons. I don't know. Saying I wish he would die of a heart attack is a pretty dark thing to say. You know that that sounds like a very volatile person. But like you're also, your dad is an adult person who's decided to get back with your mom and remarry her again. I just think, again, like that's just drama, you know, that's just you being, that's letting your parents getting caught up. You know, it wasn't fair for your dad to like, like you said, dump this on you whether you were 12, whether you were in high school. That wasn't fair. And I'm sure on some level, like, you don't. You didn't know what to do with it then. Now that you're an adult woman, you better understand maybe even the conversations that your dad had with you. And you're 12 and now you're probably feel more equipped to, like, I don't know, workshop it, deal with it, hold your dad accountable. Even if you understand your mom is right, I understand where that comes from, but I just don't think there's nothing to be gained from it. You know, at the end of the day, you're not, like, in charge of your parents. You're not their caretaker. Yeah, they're older, but, you know, 61, 59. Like, they still got a lot of life left to live, and they are certainly old enough to make decisions for themselves. It's just like, yeah, like, they deserve to, like, communicate to their kids some honesty about the dynamic of their relationship, you know? And I think the way to make them feel safe about that is to not go any further than you need to when it comes to, like, what you need to know. They'll have their excuses, right? And they're, we didn't tell you because we thought you would feel a certain way and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And so that's. That's like, they're, like, blaming you because they weren't sure how you could handle it and if you could handle it. So, like, you. You will have more legs to stand on if you don't take the bait of inserting yourself into the drama, right? Because if. If step one is, hey, mom and Dad, I know that you're married. I know that you haven't been upfront with us. Boom, like, you set that lie, and that's just like. But, you know, this is your life. We are your kids. We would like to know at least if our parents are married or not married. You know, like, it's just we don't need more than that. We're not your, you know, if you guys have relationship problems, get a therapist, talk to a friend. We're not those people. Nice to know you guys got back together. Obviously, we love you guys, and so if you guys are happy, we're happy. But the moment you say, oh, and oh, by the way, Mom, Dad's got some money you don't know about, and blah, blah, blah, blah, then. Then you're. Then you're, first of all, you're inserting problems in that relationship. Then you. You now have made yourself part of the drama, you know, What I'm saying, like, and then you become responsible for the drama and then you're like, and then you like say, oh, I'm also here to like to have you guys unload your drama on me and play judge and jury and take sides or not take sides. It's a whole nother can of worms. Outside of being like mom and dad, I know you guys are married and I think your kids like at least deserve to know the truth about that. Does that make sense?

Kate (58:24)

Yeah. So do you think like, so a couple of my siblings live in like a different state, but do you think it should be like one person? Do you think. I don't want it to feel like a gang up. They get really defensive about a lot of things, especially my mom with just her reaction. So I think even if I say what you said, like, it could should go turn a different direction. So do you think it should be like a group?

Nick (58:46)

What's the consequence of your, at this stage in your guys's life? What's the consequence of your mom being unpredictable and volatile and reacting however she reacts? And I say that because like the consequence. Me asking that question when you were in high school, when you were 12, there's a lot, there's consequences. Like, I don't know, like I would feel as a 12 year old girl, I would feel unsafe and scared that I don't know, like, you know, there's a lot of consequences to parents being unpredictable and volatile around like their adolescent children. But right now, what is the consequence other than if you choose not to be a part of it, if you choose to set a boundary and enforce that boundary? What actual impact can your mom have on you in your family, in your kids and your partner and your siblings if you guys don't allow her to have an impact her.

Kate (59:40)

Yeah, I think that's a good point because like, I think that's where I've been missing is like, what is the boundary? Because I don't think I ever had a boundary my whole life. And so now like as an adult, it's like I don't know how to set that boundary of like what when do I push, when do I not push? And there isn't a consequence, I guess for me other than she wants to be around my kids. But I just like she doesn't have boundaries when it comes to her reaction still. And so that it's not her boundaries.

Nick (60:06)

These are your, you know. Right. These are your boundaries. Right. Like that's the difference. Now, like again, the parent child relationship shift dynamic is Very, you know, it's. It's a very. It's one that people struggle with a lot, which is what, you know, a lot of people will call in for different reasons about this dynamic, right? Because first 18 years of your life, you have to listen to your parents. Sometimes you don't even know the alternative not to listen to your parents because they are your caretaker. Like, not have. Not feeling safe and secure from your parents. Like, you know, again, trauma, like all these things. But if you're one of those lucky people, and you seem like you are that in adult life, you've made a life for yourself, you. You aren't reliant on your parents for anything other than, I guess, love, then it's up to the child at that point to kind of re. You know, to. At some point, you know, like, some people do it. Shit, some people do it when they turn 18 and say, you're. I no longer have to listen to you. I'm going to start making decisions for myself, right? Other kids, you know, they are very privileged and fortunate enough to have wonderful, caring parents who are always there for them and do their laundry and pay for their college. And even at 25 years old, when shit hits the fan, their first call is their parents. And their parents are like, we got you. You know, and that's more difficult to leave that kind of security blanket. But at some point, every adult person has to have that moment where it's just like, this relationship has changed from I need you to. You are a part of my life. You don't dictate my choices or how I feel. And I set the boundary now. And that's really the change, right? Your parents, when you're. When you're a minor, your parents are always setting the expectations, the rules and the boundaries, right? Like, this is the rule. If you don't follow this rule, I'm going to enforce the boundary by putting you in a timeout or you're grounded or I'm going to take the car away or you can't hang out with your friends. That's your parents enforcing a boundary, right? And at some point when you become an adult, your parents, a lot of parents will, like, through whatever. It's maybe manipulative, you know, or things like that. It's through more just emotional. Like, I'm. I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed. Like the ultimate parent, like, manipulator card of, like, yeah, I'm not gonna punish you, maybe because I can't, but I am disappointed in you. Kind of a loser but at some point in adult life, we say, hey, mom and dad, like, I thank you for your feedback. I respect your opinion. I'm going a different direction. I certainly would love for you to, like, get on board, but ultimately don't really care gonna do me. And that you're not waiting for their approval. You're the one who sets the boundary and rules. And if it happens to be a boundary when it comes to now that you have kids and she wants to be a grandmother, you have the option to enforce a boundary. Not that you're looking to do that. As your parents get older, they will get lonelier. They will become more reliant on you guys for community and support. And you have various levers to pull. And it's definitely a dance between parents and. And adult children about, like. And I still have that dance with my parents too. You know, like, everyone has their ways of feeling seen and heard and things like that. But I think your big thing is to really just recognize that, like, you and your siblings and maybe this is a conversation you have with your siblings about, like, hey, we all kind of got a little up my mom and dad. And maybe it was, you know, mom more than dad. But like, if let. Let's just be. Let's be a. Let's us siblings a be on the same page and be a family. Let's say, let's all of us have each other's backs. And maybe the ways mom and dad didn't, you know, not to, like, point the finger. I think we all agreed that we feel lied to. I don't think you guys need to gang up on her. Honestly, like sending a text. We know you and dad are married. If your mom wants to freak out, be dramatic. Let her go be dramatic. Let her throw her temper tantrum on her own. Humans are humans, right? So it doesn't matter if you're 59 or 16. Sometimes when you get triggered, we go to our child brains, right? And we get in that fight or flight mode and we have a temper tantrum. And you're afraid that your mom is going to have one of her classic temper tantrums. Let her have her temper tantrum. It doesn't literally affect any of you guys. You don't have to allow it to affect you. You know, mom will be fine. Certainly not her first temper tantrum. Won't be her last. Last temper tantrum. She's a woman used to have her having temper tantrums. Let her have her temper tantrum. You guys make the mistake of acting like as if there's something that you guys need to do about it or you're supposed to respond and like, that she has some sort of power over you guys that she doesn't have. The kids need to get together to understand that and how you guys handle mom and dad, specifically mom, is just to just say, you know, just treat us with respect. We're all adults, literally. So, like, yeah, it would be nice to know, like, if you guys are married, we're. If you guys are happy, we're happy. Obviously, it's cool that you guys got. We're not here to relitigate the past. We're not honestly here to have an opinion. Ultimately, we want to have healthy relations with the both of you. We want you guys to have healthy relationship with our children, and that's all we care about. And we. And we want you guys to be around as long as possible and, like, stay out of their drama.

Kate (65:30)

So as far as, like, I like all that because I feel like I already knew that answer, but it's nice hearing it out loud. But what. As far as, like, the relationship with my dad. Like, my dad and I have always been really close, and I think it's almost like a trauma bond over, like, the experiences that we've been through with my mom because, like, we always kind of were on his side with the things because we saw what the reactions are. But, like, our relationship has really started to, like, just kind of separate ever since they got back together. Because, like, in my mind, like, yes, sure, I want them both to be happy, but do I, like, agree with it? No. So, like, what do I. How do I handle that with him?

Nick (66:08)

Well, part of it is, I'm guessing that the disconnect has started when the fact that, like, your dad started dating your mom. Mom, He. He correctly assumed you would feel a certain way about it. He used to confide in you about his frustrations with. About your mom. So now that he's more in a, like, pro mom position, for whatever reason, maybe he feels stupid. Maybe he, like, feels like a hypocrite. Maybe he's afraid of what you might say and so he just doesn't say it. Part of it not. It might not even be coming from a conscious place. You're. Maybe your mom is like, we can't tell him. We can't tell him. And he's just like, I. I don't know. Like, I'm not gonna tell her. You have to let you know this. It's really up to you. Right? Like, if that's the case, if I'm right and I suspect there's some truth to what I'm saying. You're only going to be more and more in charge of your relationship with your parents the older you get. And the older they get, you'll have more and more power and more and more control. Right? Because the older they get, you know, the closer they get back to diapers type of thing. Right. And the older you get right now you're becoming more independent, more financially secure, more just like further away from you remembering what it like was it like to be that 12 year old who listened to their dad complain about their mom. So yeah, so you need to dictate terms with your dad. Right. So like talk to him about that's outside of your mom. You know, you have to reach out to him and catch up with him and see what's going on in his life and make it easy for him. You got you two. You maybe in some ways have to reconnect with your dad to find things to bond over that aren't bitching about your mom.

Kate (67:39)

Mom.

Nick (67:40)

Because if so much about your relationship was bitching about mom and he doesn't want to about mom and, and you don't want to about mom because you're like, I just want to have a healthier like life and then what are you going to bond over with dad, Right. So you have to find that right. And because he's the one married to mom and you're not married to mom. Whether you agree with it or not, there's something to be said that if your dad is married to your mom, that he is trying to protect his wife, that he is going out of his way to like consider her feelings above anyone else's. And that's a good thing. Thing. At least he's doing it right. Right. You. It would, it would be worse if like he got back together with mom and was still complaining to you about her. So there's that. Right.

Kate (68:16)

I think he's like hiding it now too because he'll make like little sly comments, but not to the extent that he once did.

Nick (68:22)

It's not your problem. And I think next time your dad, you're just like, dad, you're a big boy, you're 61. I didn't tell you to get back together with her. I didn't tell you to remarry her. Obviously. Like, I love having a relationship with you and I want to talk to you about everything else but mom. But like that's a you problem. You made your bed. I'm not trying to sound cold, but like, and just be like mom and dad. You guys are like, you're like a high school couple. Like you're, you know, whatever. It's fun, it's entertaining, but it's also just not our problem.

Kate (68:48)

Yeah, that's all valid. I feel like just setting the boundary and so you suggest just sending like a text to them and just letting them know. Or do you think.

Nick (68:57)

I definitely don't need my, my opinion based off nothing, but my opinion is right. I don't think a lot is accomplished by the, the kids getting together and having some kind of mini intervention. Being like, we know you guys are married. Your parents sound dramatic. And that's just more of a dramatic. Like this isn't like some, like they're, they're just being messy. It's not really your problem. They're not alcoholics or like they're not, you know, like, they're not on the verge of like, this isn't like an required intervention. And like, what's an, what's an intervention accomplish? You know, you're not going to. You guys aren't playing therapists with them. You don't even know a lot of the details about the inner workings of their current relationship. They just haven't been upfront with you guys and that seems a little fucked up. And I don't think that requires a whole like, you know, like a lineup. I think each you guys again, I think the kids need to get together and be on the same page. I think more than ever this is about like, listen, not to sound like like, whatever, but we have each other and like, despite all our parents flaws, we have a family. Sounds like you guys are relatively close. There's a lot of good things that came from this dynamic despite mom and dad's drama. So like, focus on what you do have. You have each other. Make sure you guys are on the same page. Make sure that like, despite mom and dad's flaws, that like they raised a family that's ultimately fairly close with each other and lean on that and come together with like, we, we. Let's not make mom and dad's problems our problems. Like, it's just, it's. You cannot, you're not going to change them at this stage in the game and, and magically like, make them like, make healthy decisions when it comes to their romantic relationships. So just let them, let them be toxic and then hopefully there's some money left over at the end of the day, you know, but that's really still not your problem. I don't know. Like, Right. I don't. No.

Kate (70:53)

I like that, though. I think that. Just kind of setting that boundary and just not feeding into it, because I think all of us have lived in this state of, like, beating into it our whole lives because we've been around it, but now that everyone's older, I mean, I'm 30. My older brother's 34. Like, we're all old and on our own, so we don't.

Nick (71:09)

Drama loves an audience. You know, I think we have to remember that, you know, an audience loves drama, but more than anything, drama loves an audience. And if drama doesn't have an audience, then it's. It's really not that it's not fun.

Kate (71:22)

Yeah. Yeah.

Nick (71:23)

And so don't be the audience. Don't let you and your siblings be the audience that your parents, I think, sometimes crave when it comes to their drama.

Kate (71:32)

They just don't know anything other than that because that's what they've always done. So. No, I think that's good to set the boundary and just get all of the siblings on page.

Nick (71:40)

Yeah. I think the way you said it best was very, like, is. It will be a great. I guess not boundary, but safeguard, which is like. There is a huge difference between. What did you say? Either confronting your parents about the truth they've been hiding and exposing your parents for the lies they've been living with each other. And the expo. It's none of your business. And I would. I think that's very dangerous territory for you guys to enter into, and it doesn't really accomplish anything.

Kate (72:10)

Okay.

Nick (72:10)

Okay.

Kate (72:11)

No, that's good. It's good to hear an outside perspective because when all of us siblings talk, we just spiral and feed into the drama, like you said. So just kind of setting that boundary and avoiding feeding into it, I think will be much healthier for all of us.

Nick (72:25)

100. Yeah. It's just hard because drama. Drama's fun. It's. It's just. It's.

Shea (72:29)

Yeah.

Nick (72:30)

We want to feel as humans and most things in life right now are. Are very numbing. And drama gives scratches that itch, you know?

Kate (72:38)

Yeah. Makes it exciting, but also not exciting.

Nick (72:41)

Yeah. You know, but. Yeah, that's. Don't let that. You know, don't let your parents. Don't take that from your parents.

Kate (72:50)

Okay.

Nick (72:51)

Okay.

Kate (72:51)

No, that's. That's great. Great advice. I appreciate you doing that.

Nick (72:56)

Well, love, keep us posted. Definitely would love to know what happens when you guys tell mom and dad, you know, they're married.

Kate (73:02)

I will for sure. Yeah. And I just want to say before we hop off that I'm a huge fan of your show. I've listened to it for the last four years and I just, I love you guys. I love your reality recaps on everything and I'm a huge Housewives person so it's great to hear.

Nick (73:17)

Well, thank you much. Thank you so much for saying it and thank you for listening and sticking around and I'm sure you know, telling your friends about our show. Obviously we, we wouldn't be here without you guys. So I appreciate you saying that.

Kate (73:29)

Thanks, Nick. I appreciate it.

Nick (73:30)

All right, take care. Good luck.

Kate (73:32)

Yep. All right, bye.

Nick (73:35)

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Nick (77:01)

How's it going?

Joelle (77:02)

Good. How are you doing?

Nick (77:03)

Good. What's Your name?

Joelle (77:04)

I'm Joelle, 26.

Nick (77:06)

How can I help, Joelle?

Joelle (77:08)

So I've come into a bit of a problem. Training for my job has made me really mean to men and I need help with what to do about it.

Nick (77:15)

Okay, what's your job?

Joelle (77:16)

I'm an air traffic controller.

Nick (77:18)

Oh, wow. Okay, cool.

Joelle (77:20)

Yeah.

Nick (77:20)

So just mean to men, not just mean to people?

Joelle (77:23)

Yeah, a little bit of both, I guess. It definitely bleeds into my dating life, I think more than my real life.

Nick (77:30)

Okay, tell me More. What do you mean by that?

Joelle (77:33)

Like, so like the training for ATC is quite intense. It's pretty much just like military training for your brain.

Nick (77:40)

And like you're the one up in like the dark booth in the sky, like letting. Telling planes when to land and take off and all that stuff.

Joelle (77:47)

Yeah, yeah, I'm in the dark booth.

Nick (77:51)

And like that Breaking Bad scene is kind of like the apocalyptic, a kind of result of. Of. Is this like. Yeah, but they show you a training. If it all goes bad, this is what it looks like.

Joelle (78:01)

Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And they like, during training, they just drill that into you non stop. And you kind of have to like, give up any aspect of normality during training.

Nick (78:10)

Okay.

Joelle (78:11)

You're not allowed to have any like social. Well, you're allowed, I guess you're not al. But you're not really able to have any social life or anything like that.

Nick (78:18)

How old are you again?

Joelle (78:19)

26.

Nick (78:20)

Okay.

Joelle (78:21)

So I started training, I would have been about 22, 23. And then it was two and a half years of training and then I got licensed. So I've been licensed for over a year now.

Nick (78:30)

Okay, so now you're just, you're. Now you are just an air. Not just. But you are an air traffic controller, correct? Yeah. Gotcha. All right.

Joelle (78:39)

Yeah, yeah. And so like my last relationship, my last real relationship and my only real relationship happened like six years ago now, and it was one day less than a year, so that's really the only, like real relationship I've had. And then I did the training, couldn't date during that or anything. And then I got my license and then now I've been trying to date for the last year, but it's like my job is pretty much just telling old men what to do all day.

Nick (79:06)

Okay.

Joelle (79:07)

And so it bleeds into the dating world like pretty brutally.

Nick (79:10)

Will you say old. Who are the old men you're telling what to do? Like pilots?

Joelle (79:15)

Yeah.

Nick (79:16)

Okay. And what, what was like the first thing that you noticed on a date or in a dating situation where you felt like you were bringing work into your life? And I mean, because I'm a. Like, ultimately what I'm hearing from you is this, like at some point in, in while on a date, you're like, am I being kind of a. Oh, yeah, right. You know, and so what was the moment where you felt that way versus like, maybe you just had a justifiable response to. I don't know, maybe you're just better at calling out bullshit that other people aren't. I Don't know.

Joelle (79:50)

Yeah, so that's kind of the problem is, like, I don't know if it's justifiable or not. I think it goes even before the first date. Like, making plans with someone. If it's like, if there's any kind of like, wish wash. Oh, should we do this? Like, should we? No, I'm out. Do you know what I mean? So it goes to that beginning stage. Like, I just don't have, like, the patience. But I think that in order to, like, maintain something healthy and long lasting, I'm gonna need to find patience one day. Yeah, obviously. But then I don't know if, like, my inability for patients in those kind of situations is justifiable or if it's.

Nick (80:26)

Just me being a. I mean, what in the past. I don't know. Few. In the past year and a half of you dating, what's the most meaningful? Like, have you gotten to the first date? Have you hooked up with any guys? Have. Has there been a guy that, like, you hung out with for a few weeks? Bailed? Like, how.

Joelle (80:45)

Yeah, there's been a couple, like, situationships.

Nick (80:48)

Okay.

Joelle (80:49)

I've found that, like, one of the situationships, the guy was lovely. Like, just wanted to take care of me and bake me muffins and super great, but, like, kind of feminine in a way. And I feel like at my work, I'm so like in my masculine that it became like, really tough for me because I wanted to, like, step out of my masculine outside of work but healing, like, wanted to be more of like a. Like, I don't know. Does that make any sense? Like, he wasn't even feminine. I don't really know how to explain.

Nick (81:18)

It, but for sure. So, like, was he really making muffins and baking for you?

Joelle (81:23)

The dude baked like every day.

Nick (81:25)

It was crazy because, like, I like to cook. And like Natalie, like, she'll cook. She makes amazing food for forever. But I'm kind of like, I cook because, like, I'm. It's my kitchen type of thing. And, you know, and to me, that is an act of service. And I do, you know, I joke with Natalie that I make a good little housewife because I do a lot of domesticated things inside the house in addition to maybe mowing the lawn. But I, I. Yeah. So it's hard for me to say whether, like, just because he bakes, that means he's like, giving off a kind of a feminine. Feminine energy versus. You've decided that baking just equals femininity. But everything else in his life is Pretty, like, you know.

Joelle (82:07)

Yeah. To be fair, the guy also referred to himself as sleepy kitty, so.

Nick (82:12)

Okay, I don't know.

Joelle (82:15)

But like, it did get to the point where like a really nice thing he texted me being like, hey, I just baked banana bread. Do you want me to bring you some? And my response to that was, I would literally rather you deliver a chicken breast to my door right now. So, like, kind of an asshole move of me.

Kate (82:28)

Me.

Joelle (82:29)

Do you know what I mean?

Nick (82:30)

Yeah, I mean, the response was probably unnecessary, but I think more importantly, maybe like it was just a sign that like, not your guy.

Joelle (82:37)

Yeah. You know, so that was the problem with that one. But then I, like, after him, I started seeing another guy and he was kind of like the opposite side of the spectrum. Like super classic. Just like masculine guy, like, wants to do nothing but sports and whatnot all the time. But then he was super like wish washy in regards to plans. Not even wish washy, but would just kind of like, oh, yeah, let's do this this day. And then, I don't know, we didn't really like set a plan. But then I will bring up the expectation, like, I'll plan the entire plan out in my head. Like, I'll be like, okay, we said we're gonna hang out this day, so we're gonna do this and this and this and this and this. And then I don't communicate that. Obviously that's my first problem. But yeah, I don't communicate that. And then it's like all planned out in minutes. Someone will like say something that's not part of the plan. Like in my head, we're meeting up at 7, but I haven't communicated that with him. And then he'll be like, okay, no, let's meet up at tomorrow instead at 9. And then I'm just like, well, you're out.

Nick (83:41)

Okay.

Joelle (83:41)

And that's like, I don't know. Does that make sense?

Nick (83:43)

Kind of. Yeah, I think, listen, I think you're. It's like, I don't want to say an identity crisis, but like, you, you, you know, you have this, you have a unique job. Right? Right. Period. And in this unique job, it is a, is a job that, I don't know. Are a lot of people in your industry mostly male?

Joelle (84:01)

Yeah, no, it's definitely a male dominated industry.

Nick (84:02)

So you're working in a male dominated industry and that. You enjoy it. It fits your personality. You know, you're developing a lot of like unique life skills. Right. Like, I mean, most people just aren't good at confrontation Most people aren't direct communicators. You know, they say they are, but they're just kind of like beat around the bush. But, like, you kind of have a little bit of this identity crisis because, like, being direct comes pretty naturally to you. And it's also a requirement in your job to just, like, be a very direct communicator because lives are literally on the line. Right. And you just don't have a lot of patience for bullshit that's like, kind of rooted, rooted in your DNA and then amplified by your profession. But you're still a lady. And you're just telling me that, like, you have some traditional, like, you know, feminine needs and wants that you prefer. Right. And you're. And you kind of play. It sounds like you're playing this game in your head about, like, h. When does work stop and like, the. The other person come out. Right. And. And so far you've decided that, like, letting him figure, like, letting him plan and just taking the lead, because I don't want to have to take the lead is the best way to do that. Even though you're. It's probably too extreme because you're like, well, it probably would be helpful to him to just communicate a little bit about, like, what I'm thinking and feeling so that he can kind of take it from there.

Joelle (85:26)

Yeah.

Nick (85:27)

And then you just kind of lose patience and then you kind of move on and things like that. I don't know if that's helpful at all to you.

Joelle (85:33)

100. That's like nail and nail on the head.

Nick (85:36)

Yeah. I mean, like, there's just speaking in general terms, I think the average. I don't know, I don't have any studies about this, but I think when you're talking love languages, I think a lot of men are, Are. Would say acts of service is their love language. It's least up there. Right. Like, men. Men generally, like, what makes them feel manly and masculine is to take care of their. The people they love. And by some people's standards, that is like the definition of positive masculinity is to, like, show up and care for the people you love, you know, and that's. A lot of men feel masculine about that, especially in, like, a civilized, progressive, General Society. In 2025, back in the day, men used to, like, go to war and punch each other just to prove, you know, like, we don't do that now. But how do you show up and fight those, like, battles day in, day out, you know, and make you feel like you're the hero of your own household by, like, providing, you know, taking care of yourself, taking care of your loved ones, taking care of your kids and things like that. You're also someone who, like, can take care of herself. Right. And I think you're probably, from an identity standpoint, struggle a little bit of, like. Like, when do I let a guy take care of me? I can do it on my own. And then since you're so good at taking care of yourself on your own and not only taking care of yourself, but honestly, like, taking care of other adult men, you're. Yep. You're just having a hard time probably finding that line. Right. And. Yeah. And so the word ick, I'm sure you've heard, right?

Joelle (87:04)

Yeah.

Nick (87:05)

Has become more and more prevalent in our kind of society and culture. And I've. I've been fascinated by the same. Try to understanding what it means for people. And it's also, like, a word more commonly known or used by women to describe their feelings towards men or about men. And I have it. It seems like the. The phrase the ick is like, a really profound pet peeve that women have about men. That just really feels like the thing you described, where it was just like, he, you know, know, he, Like, I. I think for a lot of ways, like, you know, that's where, like, I think. I don't know, like, being philosophical, like, I think society's struggling, like, men. I think women and men are in heterosexual relationships a lot. I think a lot of men and women are struggling with, like, defining, like, their roles and their roles of their partner. And we're. We're dealing with cultural, like, we're. We're dealing with people, like, testing what it means to be masculine or feminine and what society is telling us what to do and how to do it. Right. Like. Like, nowadays, men or women, regardless of who you are, right. It's just like, go get a job, be independent, yada, yada, yada. Okay, cool. I want to do that. You wanted to do that. Okay. But maybe there's a part of you that you're saying, like, I don't know, I want to feel taken care of. I want to have a man in my life who makes me feel that sort of feeling of, I can be taken care of and he takes care of me. However I want to be taken care of. Of.

Joelle (88:36)

Yeah.

Nick (88:37)

You know, and I think you're not the only one. And I think men struggle with that, too. It's just like, all right, well, I don't want to be this toxic masculine guy. I'll start making banana bread. And then all of a sudden like, you know, she's just like, ick. I don't know, you're like, you know, like we were joking the other day, we were watching beyond the Villa and, and she was like, can you lift as much as that person? You know?

Joelle (89:01)

Yeah.

Nick (89:02)

And I'm like, I don't know if I can lift £225 these, these days. And she was kind like, of like, that's disgusting. And she was kidding and joking, but she also kind of wasn't in a way like that was kind of her like almost toxic femininity. If you want to, like, you know, if there's toxic masculinity, there's got to be toxic femininity. And like, I feel like the way the word ick has been used and interpreted is like an ick. Is this like a, from what I can understand, a pet peeve that is kind of silly and a little superficial often and has nothing really to do with the character of the men that women are often describing. But it's off. It's often interpreted as like a, a non negotiable or something that's wrong with this guy where it's just like a, you know, you, you, you notice something and it's, it's, it's. I feel like it's deemed as like some valid reason not to like someone. Someone, if that makes any sense. And I don't, I mean you can, you don't have to like, you don't have to like anyone who don't want to. But my guess, my point to you is at, you know, I've said this all the time. It's really important when you're deciding who to like and who to invest your time and energy in is to not confuse pet peeves and non negotiables. Right. Too many of us will ignore non negotiables. We'll make excuses for people who like, don't show up on a regular basis, who over promise and under deliver, who, you know, get a little gaslighty, who aren't good communicators, who say things like, I don't want a relationship right now, but do you want to still hang out in a week? You know, and, and then when it comes to pet peeve, we'll treat those like non negotiables because it's like, ew, he, I can't believe he, he like got clumsy and fell and tripped over his feet. And honestly, like, I just think you can look at him the same anymore because like, I just can't have sex with a guy who doesn't know how to walk Valid. And that's funny. And we all love to laugh about those things, but like, you know.

Joelle (91:03)

Yeah.

Nick (91:04)

Behind closed doors, all men are, you know, silly, goofy, dumb, gross. You know, it's just like, what do you want from us? Do you want us to like, show our feminine sides, to be proud of it and like not be judged? Or do you want to call us, you know, when we don't, I don't know, what do you want? You know, type of thing? And I think, I think, I think that's a criticism for society in general. But like, I think you're, that, that's, you're actually struggling with it right now for yourself trying to separate those two, right? And I think the solution is, you know, you're obviously a very, you know, smart and like, self aware person. I think you just have to ask yourself, like, it's like any of your job, how do you help people be successful, right? Like, you have to find that balance, even at work. Am I doing their job or am I setting them up for success? You seem like right now you're someone who doesn't want to set anyone up for success and you almost are daring them to fail and they're doing a good job of that as opposed to meeting a guy that you like and like, making it easy for him to be successful. I always talk about how Natalie, like Natalie's, I fucking hate receiving and giving gifts. Like, if I could eliminate it from the love language chart, I would. I just like, I don't honestly, like, giving a gift gives me anxiety. Receiving gifts gives me anxiety. I'm at the point in my life, if I want it, I'll buy it. I don't need to like, like it's, it's like I hate it, right? But not. My wife loves it, right? Like, especially receiving gift. You know what she does? She makes it easy for me to make her happy, right? She gives me fucking links and she lets me know how I can shop for her. And like, and it's a love language of hers. And like, honestly, thank you. Thank God my wife makes it easy because it would make me extra hell if she was like, well, if you, if you paid attention, you would love me. And it's like, oh, price. I mean like, I do pay attention, but like, I'm not, you know what I'm saying? Like, she knows that's a fault of mine, right? And so she's setting me up for success and she's making it easy for me to be successful in her relationship while also like giving me a little bit of grace. She could decide to make it even harder for me to meet her love language if she wanted to and she chooses it to make it a little easier. Right. So like how do you, with the people that you like, just set them up for success a little bit more than you're doing already while maintaining like a, a talent that you have that a lot of people don't have, which is to like sniff out and not let men who are used to like like you know, dragging their feet and feeding and ultimately stops you from enforcing a non negotiable, like don't lose that. Right. Like keep that while finding the ability to not allow the icks or like just like your pet peeves, you know, dictate like who you really invest your time in.

Joelle (93:47)

Yeah, I don't know. I think like another thing too is just like the minute I find the ick, it's just kind of an immediate out. And then my, my friends and family around me are all like, oh, you're afraid of commitment. It's been like six years kind of thing. But I think it's more so just the, or the, just the fear of like being out of control in the situation.

Nick (94:06)

Are you giving men your age, older than you, all of the above?

Joelle (94:10)

Pretty much around the same age for the most part.

Nick (94:12)

Okay. This is just a general suggestion and like you know, there are a lot of immature older men, but like you clearly are mature. Sure. I would guess a lot of 26 year old men aren't going to cut it for you even if you didn't have the profession that you have. And so you might be more drawn to the emotional maturity than men who might be five to 10 years older than you. You're still going to run into a lot of bad eggs regardless of what age you date in. But you might be more likely to find one. Like a lot of 26 year old men who don't know what they want, know what they want to do with their lives. They're not like financially secure. They're still chasing their dream. And that for someone like yourself is already going to be a turn off. Men feel the most, I guess, attractive to themselves when they have purpose in their life. I think women are often attracted to men who have purpose in their life and have like a path and that and they know how to take care of themselves so that, you know, like, I feel like, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't speak for women. But like, you know, there's a difference between like everyone wants to take care of their partner, but they don't want to be the reason their partner is alive, you know, or like has a job. You know, it's just like Natalie makes me better at my job and makes me feel like I'm more successful. I feel more successful as a result of her being in my life. But I had this before she showed up up. I would have some level of success without her. She's just making it that much better. And I feel like everyone wants to add that kind of value to their partner. And I think a lot of women in your shoes, or at least your a, your age are dating men who like, they're still like again chasing their dream, you know. My daughter's a year and a half and I feel like she's really advanced for age. And then, then we just meet other girls her age. We're like, oh, she's just, just like. And then we mean boys her age and they're like, oh, not the same. You know, like women are definitely like just. You even see it at an early age just how quicker girls learn and progress emotionally. And you know, I think that carries on through life and I think you are, you're mature for your age regardless of your gender, you know, and then so you dating a bunch of 26, 27 year old men. I think you, I think that adds to it. And you have a guy making you banana bread because he, you know, he sees you kicking ass and he only kick ass in right now is his bread.

Joelle (96:39)

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I guess like the other thing too is I got a job transfer to a new city.

Nick (96:45)

Yeah.

Joelle (96:45)

And so, and everyone in my industry right now where I'm working is at least 10 plus years older than me. Kind of like families settle down. So meeting people has been really tough. So my own.

Nick (96:57)

I'm guessing you don't want to meet another air trafficking controller.

Joelle (97:01)

No, absolutely not.

Nick (97:04)

That would be the only, you know, know to. Yeah, that's normal. But when you move to a new city, I've found that when I moved to a new city in the age that you are, I gave myself more permission to be more adventurous. I think when we live in the cities that we grow up in where we have already friends, you know, like wherever. How long, how long have you lived in the place that you live now? Is it like where you grew up?

Joelle (97:28)

No, no, I've been here like two years.

Nick (97:29)

Oh, two years. All right. So like when you moved to this city. Were you like more adventurous? Like, you know, like, like I just find most people when they, the like the community they grew up in, like, they're like, oh, I would never go to the movies by myself. Ooh. I wouldn't go to a, I wouldn't go to a restaurant, have dinner by myself. It's like, ew, I'm a loser because I'm supposed to have friends to go and do these things with. And then when you move to a new city by yourself, you're like, I don't know, I need to get out of the house. I'm just gonna sit at the bar and have dinner or I'm just gonna go see a movie. And we judge ourselves less because we have a built in excuse of like, I don't know, I just moved here. I don't know anyone. Like, I can't be a loser. I just started here, right? Like in. The only difference is you're judging yourself, right? And so yes, when you move to a new city, take advantage of the fact that your ego isn't going to be judging you as much by joining out. You know, extracurricular activities, co ed leagues, whatever it is, just get out there and be social and meet people and you know, get on bumble bf, you know, whatever. Just like you meet people, like, you know, just say yes to things. And when you say yes to things, you'll meet friends through friends and you know, will happen. You know, you just have to be open to meeting people, having, you know, short term friendships, realizing maybe that's not a person you with, but the person you met through them is something you're, you're more in line with and then they have a friend or a friend and then you guys go out and then you run into some dudes, I don't know, or you get on the dating apps, whatever. But yeah, I think try to get out of your head. There's that.

Joelle (99:03)

Okay.

Nick (99:04)

And yeah, there's a little bit of like for you, it sounds like maybe being demure isn't like a something that comes naturally or you lead with, but the part of you that likes the more traditional masculine and feminine roles. I think there is a time and a place for you to showcase that demure side of you. You. When you want, it's like, you know what I'm saying? Like when you want a man to be a man, whatever that means to you, that will be a good time for you to like lean into your feminine side of things. Because it, it's a kind of yin and yang. You Know, men feel more like men when they have someone who's like, take care of me. And men feel less useful when, you know, you're like, shut the up. I got this. I'm like, okay, cool. You got this. But, like, I. You know what I'm saying? So if you want a guy, like, feel good about that role, you. You kind of have to give him an opportun. You had to set up again, setting him up for success.

Joelle (100:03)

So, like, do you think in the early stages of dating someone, I should pull myself back from kind of like, being boss mode and being like, hey, let's do this now?

Nick (100:12)

Yeah, to a certain, you know, again, it's. It's a very fine line because I want to be clear that I'm not telling you to. Don't be someone you're not.

Joelle (100:20)

Yeah.

Nick (100:20)

And you can be direct and you can be someone who, like, doesn't put up with bullshit. But, yeah, like, that. I think that's more just making sure someone's not wasting your time. But, like, if you want a man to plan things and, like, let him. Yeah. Like, I think, yeah, you could be a little bit more chill, you know, communicate. Yeah, this is what I like. See, if he takes the bait, then you really have. Like, if you're just like, hey, listen, I like it when a guy does this. I like it when a guy does that at the right time. Maybe it's like, it comes up naturally. But, yeah, like, it's a. It's definitely a recipe for success to set expectations in your head and tell no one and then hold other people accountable for the expectations you have in your head. Definitely a recipe for disaster.

Joelle (101:03)

Yeah, that makes sense.

Nick (101:05)

Like, put, like, do. Do that at work and see what happens. You're like, you know what? I'm just. I know what you should do. I'm gonna keep it to myself because you should be smart enough to figure it out. You went to pilot school, so figure it out. Out. And then they don't. And you're just like, you stupid. Like, that's kind of what you're doing in dating.

Joelle (101:21)

A really interesting way to look at it. And it makes a lot of sense to me, so.

Nick (101:24)

And I imagine when you deal with pilots, there are certain pilots where you like you with them more and you respect how they carry their business and their other pilots. So you're just like, why are you flying planes?

Joelle (101:35)

Yeah, 100%. But so then you're saying in the early phases of dating someone, it's okay to just be like, hey, I time I Want to step like back and kind of let you take the reins on like planning things and whatnot. And that's what I'm looking for.

Nick (101:48)

Sure. I mean I wouldn't like lead with that on the dating app, you know, get their vibe. I don't know. Like, I listen, I think nowadays I do think in general, regardless of your personality, your job or whatever, I, I just think men. And again, this is not to like let whatever men off the hook for whatever behaviors that you know. But like I did, I think when it comes to young men, you know, like men your age or younger or whatever, I think a of lot of them are very confused about like the role they should play in the relationships. Like, I think they're very confused what healthy masculinity means. And then you know, it's like those things like online. Then you have like all these like very, very toxic men in like some dark spaces, like red pill. And you know, they're, they're the only ones talking about masculinity, but it's the worst kind of masculinity, you know. And then like the good guys I like don't have a lot of healthy spaces to go to. I guess what I'm saying is like yes, I think it would go a long way, way for you to just help the men that you're interested in be successful and see if they're self aware enough or equipped to pick up on your cues and take it from there. But letting a guy know what you're attracted to, what you're into, what like what you'd like him to do and see if he does it, because that's at least someone with potential. That's someone you can train a little bit. Right. Like we all want to be able to train on some level our partner to like love us the way we want to be loved. Right? Like hey, this is, these are my love languages and what are yours and what makes you feel love and someone who's interested in adapting even in the bedroom. All right, what turns you on, what doesn't turn you on? You know, what do I like? What do you don't like? So like it's a lot. It's very helpful to like give people the playbook and then let them ask the follow up questions and things like that so that they can really be successful in making you happy as opposed to making someone guess and, and, and, and if that, that proves anything.

Joelle (103:43)

Yeah, no, that's interesting. I think with my like the one guy that I did date, I had to do a Lot of training. And I think that kind of made me afraid to do anything like that with someone new so early on.

Nick (103:54)

New employee, whatever. Like, there's always some trading and more than. But you eventually hope that people pick up on things that they're listening to you, right. That like, you're not re explaining yourself over and over again, you know, because like, this is someone who wants. Wants to be good at, you know, it's like whether it's a job or a relationship, if they give a, you know, they'll be invested. They'll. Whatever they prioritize, they'll go out of their way to like, you know, not sit around and wait for being told what to do, you know, they will be proactive. The muffin guy was just like proactive in ways that like, you didn't appreciate, but he didn't know because you weren't there to like tile him. He's like, I guess I'll just make muffins. I don't know. So.

Joelle (104:34)

Yeah, no, you're not wrong.

Nick (104:36)

Yeah. And maybe he's just really into muffins. But maybe he was just like, I don't know, man. Like, I'm dating this badass woman. She got this job. I'm still figuring out my life. But like, in the meantime, I'm really good at muffins. But maybe this guy's like excelling at muffins is like, showed his potential. It's like muffins today, you know, I'm.

Joelle (104:54)

Really good at like, he worked in fire, so he, he like, they like baked muffins and stuff at the fire hall.

Nick (105:01)

When I met Natalie, I made her. I made her record me roller skating. Now that's a nick.

Joelle (105:06)

Why did you do that?

Nick (105:07)

Well, you know, the pandemic. I was really good at roller skating. I was just like, I needed some fudgeing content. She was there. She could hold the camera. I didn't give a fuck. I was obviously lack of self awareness, not giving a fuck. You know, I don't care. I didn't care what she thought of me, I guess. But like, my point is, it's like he definitely could have been a guy who's just like tapped into his feminine side. It definitely doesn't define who he is. It's one side of things, but like, it's the only side you allowed him to get to know because you.

Joelle (105:36)

Yeah.

Nick (105:36)

And. And then you just. He became the guy you called muffin man to your friends.

Joelle (105:41)

Oh, 100%.

Nick (105:43)

Probably just not your guy. I forgot what the kitty thing was. That's weird too. But, but you know, I'm saying it's like the more masculine you act, you're probably going to, gonna honestly like get more feminine energy from the men that you date again. Because I think there's a ying and a yang. I think there's a little bit of balance and it's like all right, well.

Joelle (106:02)

Yeah, and that's the problem that I've been having for sure. But I think setting bound, not boundaries, but kind of setting people straight early on.

Nick (106:09)

Yeah. I think the biggest thing is one, remember you're only 26. All right. So like you can, you can chill out a little bit when it comes to like your dating life and things like that you're moving to a new city potentially it sounds like. And then that is a cool and exciting opportunity to just like free yourself up from any like self limiting beliefs of like why you shouldn't put yourself out there. And that will just allow you to meet more people in general. And then when it comes to dating, I think you should just have a more, just like more open minded in general. Open minded to maybe dating a little older, trying that out, seeing how you feel about it. But like you know you're going to meet a lot more frogs until you meet your prince most likely. But, but like when you do meet someone you like, try to set them up for success and give them a little bit of a leash and knowing that you probably are someone who is a little more prone to noticing icks and looking for things to like turn you off because you're just kind of, you know, good at that. Just be self aware about that. Cool. Because you know the guy who might ask you to videotape him roller skating might be like also someone who like provides a whole is cool life for you, you know, and, and, and, and really like takes care of you in ways that like you doesn't reveal, you know, you just never really know. And I'm guessing you're hoping you're meeting men who are not this hyper masculine guys who have to grunt all the time and hunt just to like prove their masculinity that like you probably want a guy who can honestly like my man makes muffins and they're really fucking good, but he's so fucking good in other areas of your relationship that like it's, it becomes like a cute anecdote about your partner and not the thing that defines him in your brain about who he is.

Joelle (107:52)

Yeah, definitely need like an even playing field with that.

Nick (107:55)

But you're, you're only 26, so.

Joelle (107:58)

Oh. Feels like time's ticking, but thanks.

Nick (108:01)

Sure. Well, you're, you know, you. You've also grown up fast and you've been very mature. So in your mind, you've. You've had your together for a long time. For you to go to school at 22 with a very, like, clear path of like, what you want and like a very, very set goal. Your dating challenge, honestly, is going to be finding that match. Because I think now more than ever, I think people are growing up slower, especially men. And I think a lot. There's a lot of confused men about, like, what's their. You know, I think people in general are having a hard time finding jobs and just purpose. And so, like someone like yourself who has purpose, who has that emotional maturity, it will be a challenge for, for you and that. I'm not trying to discourage you, but it's just more just why you need to be more intentional about who you date. And that's when you offer yourself grace. And instead of like, getting frustrated at yourself or blaming you, there is going to be a level of a patience that you're going to have to incorporate in your dating life and know your value and being like, listen, I'm a badass. I got a lot going for me. Most people are not at my level, and I'm not looking for anyone. I'm looking for one. And like, it might take some time, but that, you know, people. But, like, mix in a little bit more grace and like, what can you control? Like, you're calling in because you're just like, there's some unnecessary hurdles I'm putting up that is making my. My pursuit of love harder than it needs to be. And so you want to get rid of those while maintaining the standards that you do have. And so when things do feel a little discouraging and tough when it comes to your dating life, you're making sure that's only the result of your exceptional standard that you have for yourself. And you're just not going to lower their standards for, like, men who just, like, haven't grown up fast enough. And. And then when you do meet someone who has that potential, you don't like, push them away by, like, you know, making it impossible for them to meet your standard.

Joelle (109:55)

No, that's good advice. Appreciate it.

Nick (109:56)

You. I think you. And I've said this before, you really want to pursue men who have. Have a job one and like their job.

Joelle (110:06)

Yeah, that's huge.

Nick (110:07)

I think if you. I think you meeting a guy who doesn't like their job is almost. You had zero chance of maybe not.

Joelle (110:14)

Zero, but no, I could actually never be with someone that didn't like their job. That's like my number one thing. I don't care if someone's a bartender, but they better like going and being.

Nick (110:24)

Passionate about that job or just like. Yeah. Or just. Yeah, just told the whole, like I don't know what I want to do and I hate my job and blah blah, blah. Is this like they have a lot of, of of reflection and, and growth before they're at your level. I think that's where like you always, I think you hear a lot of women like in your shoes. Like, I think there's a common, like, I think there's a lot of successful women out there who feel like a lot of men are intimidated by their success. And I think there's certainly some truth to that. But I think if you were to drill it down more accurately, it's just like, I think a lot of those women are dating men who like just aren't at their level, you know, and there are more men not at their level than at their level. If you say yes, the guy who, whose face you like and, and whose profile you think is funny. But they also hate their job. Yeah, they're probably going to feel emasculated by you. They're going to feel like emasculated by their male friends. They're going to feel inadequate by people who are more successful than them. That's just how usually people are, are. I think it's less about like, oh, he, you don't like a woman who's successful. It's just like they don't like anyone who's successful right now. They feel like, you know, not compared to them, you know, and, and you're looking for your equal. So like for you to start going on a date with a guy who's just like still finding purpose in his life. Well, you are. You have your purpose, you have your job, you have things you like. You're just looking for that guy to round out your love life. You have to make sure that you're finding and dating the people who have like, are at similar points in life regardless of their age.

Joelle (111:56)

That yeah, I'm not looking to whip someone into shape or be a mom.

Nick (112:00)

Yeah.

Joelle (112:00)

So.

Nick (112:01)

So I would just be very mindful of that. Those should be your non negotiables. And if you meet someone who like loves their job, you're attracted to, has a good personality and they also make muffins, then so be it.

Joelle (112:14)

Clarity.

Nick (112:15)

All Right.

Joelle (112:15)

Cool.

Nick (112:15)

This is helpful.

Joelle (112:16)

Well, that was helpful. Hopefully no more muffin mans. I feel like you're kind of willing that into my life right now, but other than that, really helpful.

Nick (112:23)

It's not about. Yeah, it's just you want those things that like every guy, you want a guy to have a feminine side. You want to. You want a guy who can be empathetic and has that nurturing side. And I don't know if you want kids someday, but like, I, you know, I, I think a strength of model mine is that I've always been very comfortable about showing my feminine side in any space that I'm in around other men, around other women. I've been judged before in my life. I mean, I am a man who hosts a show, listen to, primarily about women talking about pop culture and reality tv. Never thought of that for myself. I'm fine with it. It still brings criticism and judgment. I'm also very confident about my masculinity. Right. I've. I've never been into cars or hunting or fishing. I. That's not how I show my masculinity, but I've always been very confident about the masculinity I present to the people I date. And it might not be for everybody, but I'm very confident in what I bring to that table. And I'm. I think that, like, you would, like a lot of people would want that. Right. Because I think that also, like, makes me the type of father that I am. Right. And, and how hands on I am and how, like, attentive I hope my wife feels I am to her emotions and needs, you know, And I think that from my ability to connect with women and, and show that feminine side and things like that, you don't want a man who's so insecure about showing his feminine side because he's afraid how his buddies or other women are going to judge him. I think that's the consequences of like the whole ick culture and things like that. It's a funny anecdote, but like, I think there are a lot of guys out there who are just like afraid to show that. And like, that is. That brings out that toxicity. Right, right. Like that. Yeah.

Joelle (114:07)

I feel like, well, a big part of masculinity is having the ability to step into your feminine to some extent and be like, go into those emotions and stuff. I think that actually like, goes into being masculine is having ability, because when you're confident in your masculinity, you can do that. So.

Nick (114:23)

Yeah. And so this guy not to Keep beating a dead horse. Maybe he's really a masculine guy, but you just only saw a certain side of him and you were just kind of very much, you were in your masculine energy. You were just being this business woman busy at work, didn't really make time for him, didn't really give him a road map. And he was like, he wants some muffins. And it just like he hasn't had a chance to show you his masculine side because again, you've never really wanted to show up with your feminine side. That created a space for him to like, all right, this is where I'm gonna step up. I'm gonna be my, be a man.

Joelle (114:57)

So I should slide back in.

Nick (115:00)

I don't know.

Joelle (115:00)

I'm just kidding.

Nick (115:01)

I don't know. I, I, no, I, Yeah, yeah, no, no.

Joelle (115:04)

What you're saying makes total sense. It's definitely like a two way street. If I want someone to be able to step into their masculine and do those things, I need to, yeah. Kind of tell them what I'm looking for and also step back for myself a bit and let go, let people.

Nick (115:16)

Yeah, it's a little bit to, yeah, you get it. It's an equilibrium in a relationship and balancing each other out and whether the energy you bring, you know, and things like that, it's all, it all kind of intertwines.

Joelle (115:28)

Alrighty.

Nick (115:29)

All right, well, good luck. Congrats on the, the relocation and thank you. Don't get in your head. You're gonna, I think you're gonna be fine. I think the fact that you are already like conscious about that, I think is a good signal. And I think a lot of people in your position would become like that whole jaded, like, oh, men are just like intimidated by my success. Like, you know, maybe, maybe some men, but like, you're not looking for those men. You're looking for the men who aren't intimidated by your success but also need a little bit from you to give you the type of dynamic that you're looking for. Cool.

Joelle (116:00)

Cool. Thanks.

Nick (116:02)

Take care. Give us an update on how things play out.

Joelle (116:05)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Nick (116:07)

I don't know. It's like in a few months, you know, if you've, whatever you've implemented after the move, you know, I think there's a lot of women who are listening to this, relate to you. Right. At some level. I think we have a lot of very successful, very talented career women who are out there, there struggling to find love and for whatever reason, maybe in some similarities have felt that, well, a lot about what we're talking about, but I think I'll control what you can control. Try to change your approach. See what you notice, report back and. And see if you notice any meaningful changes.

Joelle (116:39)

Okay. Sounds good. I'll just. I'll. Again, just an exercise.

Nick (116:42)

Great. Yeah. You know, all right. I appreciate the call.

Kate (116:46)

Cool.

Joelle (116:46)

Thank you. Have a good day.

Nick (116:47)

You, too. Bye.

Shea (116:48)

Bye.

Nick (117:02)

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