E984 Ask Nick - My Husband Likes Cam Girls More Than Me

Summary

The Viall Files – Episode 984

"Ask Nick – My Husband Likes Cam Girls More Than Me"

Date: August 18, 2025
Host: Nick Viall
Co-hosts and Contributors: Natalie Joy, “The Household”
Main Theme: Relationship, religious, and friendship dilemmas – from a deeply Orthodox Jewish dating struggle, to friendship boundaries in pregnancy, to a marriage rocked by porn use.

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Overview

This episode of “Ask Nick” features three callers, each presenting a unique and emotionally charged relationship dilemma:

• A 26-year-old ultra-Orthodox Jewish woman (“Ella”) wrestling with faith, personal agency, and matchmaking burnout.
• A pregnant woman (“Hattie”) navigating guilt, friendships, and boundaries when her due date collides with her best friend’s wedding.
• A married woman (“Cassie”) feeling lonely and rejected as her husband turns increasingly to porn instead of intimacy with her.

Nick Viall offers his signature blend of empathy, practical wisdom, humor, and challenge, urging each caller to define their own boundaries and confront unhealthy relationship dynamics.

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Segment 1: Orthodox Jewish Matchmaking & Identity (Ella, 26)

Timestamps: 01:37 – 61:13

Caller Situation

Ella, an ultra-Orthodox Jewish woman, expresses anxiety about still being single at 26 in a community where most women her age are already married. She discusses:

• Only dating through a matchmaking system.
• Never having touched a man due to strict religious rules.
• The struggle to find someone who matches both her level of faith and her desire for emotional connection.
• A recent heartbreak over a man who wasn’t as strict about religious observance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Community Pressure and Personal Values

  • Ella feels tension between loyalty to her faith and her desire to feel a genuine emotional and intellectual connection with a partner.
  • There’s open discussion about systemic and cultural expectations within ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities.

• Religious Compatibility vs. Emotional Connection

  • The man she recently dated went through the motions of Orthodoxy but wanted to push boundaries (listened to secular music, dressed less traditionally).
  • Nick highlights the dilemma: many Orthodox men who are truly devout can be emotionally restricted (“like a caged tiger”), while men open to the wider world may not share her core values.

• Parental Influence, Personal Compass

  • Nick, drawing on his own devout Catholic upbringing, urges Ella to determine:
    “What is a perfect, forgetting about what anyone wants of you, your parents, God himself, or your friends?... If God said, ‘What I want is for you to decide,’ what would that look like?” ([13:30])
  • Ella admits she’s still struggling to define what she truly wants, outside of external expectations.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Nick: “You seem to be struggling... your default is always ‘What am I supposed to do? What would someone who loves God do?’... as opposed to ‘What do I want to do?’” ([17:13])
• Ella admits: “For sure, I have a massive super ego where I’m, like, constantly buzzing in my head—was I right? Was I wrong?... It’s a little bit heavy on that end.” ([21:05])
• Nick on the theme of personal choices in faith:
  “Even the most devout and God-fearing Jewish people… have their things that maybe they technically shouldn’t do, but it’s not hurting anyone… even the most religious people have their vices. Everyone has a wandering mind.” ([57:15])
• Ella: “I kind of want that balance, actually. Nick, you really remind me of my father a little bit… he has that contained presence…” ([32:10])

Advice & Conclusions

• Nick encourages Ella to focus on defining her own “north star”:
  “You’ve got to find your balance too… I’m not convinced you know exactly what you want for yourself.” ([57:04])
• Compromise in Religious Relationships:
  “You need a north star—for you, it’s religion… and you’re meeting men who maybe don’t want that. Most of the men do, but I feel like I like the guys that are a little bit more open.” ([42:31])
  • He affirms that compromise is normal, but non-negotiables are key; Ella should hold out for someone honest about where he stands, who can share her values but also acknowledge some uncertainty.
• Affirmation:
  “You sound like a normal person… you have some of the same standards and desires… coupled with this very religious background.” ([54:40])
  “[You are] an attractive person… even if you went on the apps, I don’t think a lot of men would be like, ‘Who’s this weird religious freak?’” ([55:17])

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Segment 2: Pregnant & Guilty — Friendship and Boundaries (Hattie, 29)

Timestamps: 64:21 – 94:59

Caller Situation

Hattie is due to give birth the day after her best friend’s wedding, which she was meant to be a bridesmaid in. She is anxious about disappointing her friend, navigating her daughter’s (age 2) involvement as a flower girl, and fielding judgment from a third friend (the maid of honor).

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Handling Guilt and Boundaries

  • Hattie’s anxiety is exacerbated by a friend who “essentially told me I should have waited four weeks before getting pregnant” ([68:50]).
  • Nick is immediately blunt: “That is an insane thing for her to say and she’s just a hundred percent wrong.” ([69:02])

• Prioritizing Family over Social Expectations

  • Nick emphasizes, “It’s your family… no one else really matters… this is a decision I made for my family and I don’t need outside voices.” ([73:29])
  • Hattie is encouraged not to “empower” the friend’s misplaced anger:
    “Your response empowers her to feel the way she’s doing… her feelings aren’t valid in that moment. They were not valid. They were irrelevant…” ([86:53])

• Standing Up for Yourself in Friendships

  • Hattie admits: “I just take the brunt end of her feelings… I just do what I can to, like, keep the peace.” ([89:35])
  • Nick urges her to "not be invested in the outcome" and to prioritize her family’s needs above all:
    “Your only priority right now is you and your husband and this baby you’re cooking, and your daughter…” ([91:49])

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Nick, on outside opinion: “If that outside voice is my mom or my best friend or my father-in-law, fuck ‘em because they’re wrong, you know… especially now that you’re pregnant.” ([73:33])
• Hattie voices a common internalized pressure: “I have to start believing that because, like I said, the way that she talked to me and the way she made me feel… but I guess I choose my own feelings.” ([92:20])
• Nick’s bottom line: “You are right. There’s no alternative. You are not going to family plan around anyone… and this baby’s not a mistake.” ([92:29])

Advice & Conclusions

• On confronting unsupportive friends:
  “Give her the opportunity to see her mistake. If she doesn’t want to, that is her problem.” ([93:10])
• On outgrowing certain friendships:
  “There's a really good chance you’ve just never stood up for yourself. And when you finally do, she’ll be like, ‘You’re right, I'm sorry.’ …If not, maybe this friendship is starting to run its course.” ([89:35])
• On managing stress:
  “Don’t stress about stupid shit like this. It’s all stupid… as long as your daughter and your husband are healthy and you can pay your bills, it’s all stupid.” ([94:39])

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Segment 3: Porn vs. Partnership – The Intimacy Disconnect (Cassie, 32)

Timestamps: 99:34 – 122:47

Caller Situation

Cassie, 32, calls in, frustrated that her husband is "more interested in porn than in me." She reports:

• Pattern of “sneaking off” to watch porn and masturbate, sometimes every other day.
• A sense that he's lying about it and choosing pornography over working on their sex life.
• The situation has led to frequent arguments, disrespect, and even verbal cruelty (“calling me a bitch… marrying me was a mistake”).
• They’re also struggling through infertility.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• The Difference Between Healthy and Problematic Porn Use

  • Nick: “Most guys do [watch porn] on some level… [but] how much is it taking over and affecting other aspects of your life? It’s affecting his marriage.” ([103:06])

• Communication Patterns and Excuses

  • Cassie has confronted her husband, but “he’s not seeing it as a we problem… his solution is getting you to not complain about it.” ([106:12])
  • Each “fix” is temporary—nothing changes for long.

• Disrespect, Argument Patterns, and Verbal Abuse

  • Cassie tearfully shares, “he’s said to me… ‘thank God we don’t have kids together’… ‘marrying me was a mistake.’”
  • Nick is blunt: “That’s crazy things to say… What are you supposed to do next?” ([109:15])

• Can They Repair This Marriage?

  • Nick insists that Cassie frame this as a relationship crisis:
    “You need to find common ground… Even if both of you are just kind of miserable in this marriage… if you don’t want to get divorced, then do you want to keep living this way?” ([112:22])
  • The couple tried therapy but the husband refused to continue.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On solutions: “You got to keep talking to him… make it more about a we problem.” ([118:34])
• On excuses: “He’s not low testosterone, being tired… that has to do with giving a shit.” ([117:16])
• On accountability: “If you can’t get him to at least say, ‘I'm not making my wife feel good,’... then I don’t know where there is to go.” ([116:20])
• Cassie recognizes her own “enabling” of cycles but is unsure when to draw the line:
  “Every time it’s the same thing—‘I'm going to work on it, I’ll stop saying it’ …At what point do you say enough is enough?” ([111:12])

Advice & Conclusions

• On ending the cycle:
  “If you realize they're just unwilling to do anything different… [then] maybe there’s not that much of a future here.” ([114:54])
• On emotional labor:
  “You are trying to find solutions to this problem that you two are having… his solution is that he promises to change if you shut up. And he doesn’t change.” ([119:20])
• On a path forward:
  “He needs to be willing to fight with you, not that the fight is just you, by yourself.” ([122:23])

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Show Highlights & Core Takeaways

• Defining One’s Own Values is a major theme—each caller is challenged to decide what’s non-negotiable, what’s simply outside voices, and whether they are living for themselves or the expectations of others.
• Healthy Boundaries and Communication emerge as vital, whether in friendships, family, or marriage: it’s never wrong to advocate for your own needs.
• Nick’s Tone: Direct, supportive, never judgmental—willing both to challenge and affirm the callers. Humor, empathy, and real talk are present throughout.
• Notable Moment:
  Nick’s repeated assurance, often with a smile in his voice:
  “You are right.” (To both Ella and Hattie)
  “There is no alternative.”
• Memorable quotes as episode takeaways:
  • “You’ve got to find your balance.” ([57:04])
  • “Don’t stress about stupid shit like this. It’s all stupid.” ([94:39])
  • “If you realize they're just unwilling to do anything different… [then] maybe there’s not that much of a future here.” ([114:54])

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Timestamps – Key Segments

• [01:37 – 61:13] Orthodox Jewish Dating Crisis (Ella)
• [64:21 – 94:59] Pregnancy and Friendship Fallout (Hattie)
• [99:34 – 122:47] Porn, Intimacy & Marital Discord (Cassie)

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Final Word

Whether dealing with faith, family, friends, or sex, this episode’s core advice radiates:
Define your own north star—then defend it.
You are not wrong for wanting what you want, and you have permission to guard your own peace.

Transcript

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[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

You're crazy.

[Host 2]

How's it going?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Good. Hi, my name is Ella. I'm 26. I'm wondering if my religious values are holding me back from finding the right one.

[Host 2]

Okay, tell me more.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I am ultra orthodox religious. Like very, very, very religious. Like I've never touched a guy in my life. Like not even like held hands. Like nothing, nothing, nothing.

[Host 2]

And like because you don't want to or you feel like the shame of.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

It all or like no, religiously, like I'm not, not allowed.

[Host 2]

Okay, and how do you feel about that as a 26 year old adult?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Okay, so two things. Okay. So first, I really feel like I'm very, very connected to my religion. Like it's not just something I grew up with. Like yeah, it's thing that's part of me. It's part of my, it's in my bones and I, and I really feel for it. And at the same time, it's. It's been really difficult.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Like, because culturally almost everyone is married at this point. I'm like the second to last one in my class, not married.

[Host 2]

And when you say your class, what do you mean?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Like high school? Like, I went to an all girls high school.

[Host 2]

Okay. How connected are you to your community? Because, like, for example, I grew up very religious. You may or may not know. Having 10 siblings is usually a signal of that. Right. We went to like a Catholic church. It was, I wouldn't call it like orthodox. You know, certainly I held hands in high school type of thing. You know, there was a lot of, like, no sex before marriage from my parents, like, conversations. There was certainly a lot of that kind of shame and whatever. But certainly I guess we were not orthodox enough for me and my siblings to, you know, whatever. We just, you know, do our thing in high school. And you know, as Catholics, Catholics are notorious for, you know, breaking the rules or right, you know, so to speak, and then going to confession or whatever. But I certainly am familiar with, you know, very devout religious parents and that kind of upbringing you mentioned or, you know, you say the word Orthodox, obviously that, that kind of seems like a signal, even more serious and more intense.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, like, I never talked to like a guy like throughout high school. Like, it wasn't like.

[Host 2]

So like I just had a carry out. I mean, well, a couple things, you know, one, it's just like, usually in my experience, like the more orthodox families and communities kind of just stay within their Orthodox family or communities. Like everyone was this more religious, let's say, in the, you know, I don't know, back in the day. Right. And you would just go to your church and then you would marry someone from your church and it was easier to be devout because like, yeah, we believe in the same thing. You know, a lot of times it's just like, that's why a lot of people in these very devout religious communities, like, stick with their own, so to speak. Because it is, it's just, you know, it is hard to find people, especially as modern society becomes more and more, I guess, agnostic, to find people who subscribe to, you know, very rigid beliefs. But it doesn't sound like that's the case for you. It's like you're trying to hold on to these core values and then date people outside of your religion.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, no, no, it's. What do you do? You know how it works? Like the Orthodox. Jewish Orthodox.

[Host 2]

Oh, so you're Jewish Orthodox? Okay. Yeah, I. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, yeah, I don't know.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Oh, don't worry. I mean, it's all really set up through a matchmaker.

[Host 2]

Oh, okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, everything. Like, you can't, like, meet the guy yourself type of thing. Like, it all set up through a matchmaker, and you do a lot of research and everything before you even meet the guy. Like, your parents call his character references and everything. It's like. It's very intense. You even do genetic testing before you even meet the guy. And then he comes to your house and he meets your parents for, like, three minutes, and then he takes you off to hotel lobby, and you spend three hours talking. And if you like him, then you go out again. And from there it just goes really fast. And usually, like, eight dates later, you're probably engaged.

[Host 2]

Okay, so is that what, like, what you're in line for?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, well, that's what I've been doing. Yeah.

[Host 2]

How long you've been doing this?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Seven years.

[Host 2]

And you just haven't. Like, are your parents are, like, exhausted trying to find you someone you like?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, they're going nuts. Like, and it's been working. Like, I've dated, like, tons.

[Host 2]

So you're just like, nah, I'm good.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No. So, yeah, that's what's happening is like.

[Host 2]

Are you turning them all down or do you get rejected ever?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, like. Like, once in a while, there is someone that rejects me.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah. No, so it's. It's. It's been brutal. Like, it's been like. Like I'll be in, like, a hotel lobby, and it will be so brutal for me to make conversation with the guy because I just feel like. I don't know. Like, it's just very, very hard for me. And then. But there was one guy that I did, like, recently, and that's. That's where the whole question came about.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

And.

[Host 2]

And was he Jewish Orthodox?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yes, he was. He was. So I actually, he. I met him, you know. Do you know what a Shabbos table is? Shabbos Sabbath.

[Host 2]

I'm familiar with the word. I don't know. I don't know. But I'm. Yeah, I've seen the show Orthodox on Netflix. Great show.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

It is. Yeah. So. So every week there's, like a. Like, the Sabbath. Whatever. It's like a very much like a very family time. And I was at, like, this person's house And. And I saw this guy there, and I don't know, like, I just went over to him. I just started talking to him and. Which is, like, not really done so much, you know? Like, you don't really just, like, go over. But he was. He was so nice, and he was so, so sweet. And we. And we went through a matchmaker after that, and I really, really liked him, but I felt like the more we talked and the more I got to know him, he wasn't. He wasn't as religious as me. Like, he wasn't.

[Host 2]

What does that mean? Like, what. Explain that to me. Because he still went through a matchmaker.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah. Didn't, like, touch or anything like that, but, like, Like.

[Host 2]

But he was very much part of the Jewish Orthodox Church and familiar with your arrangement and how you do things. And it's like, he was certainly comfortable with that. Right. And understood that. Right. So what do you mean by he wasn't as religious as you?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Well, I mean, it was like an overall. It was an overall feel. Like. Like, we're not really, like, allowed to, like, listen to, like, secular music or things like that. And, like. Like, he definitely would do that. He would always, like, be, like, testing me, like, putting it on in the.

[Host 2]

Car and, like, what's considered secular? Like, I'm honestly shocked that you listen to my podcast. Are you allowed to, like, we.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Totally, totally.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I. I told my parents that I was coming on. They were like, oh, my gosh, that's super cool. Go for it.

[Host 2]

Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, but what is. What does secular mean?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Because, like, okay, like, mainstream. Just totally mainstream music. Like, regular music. Like.

[Host 2]

Yeah, okay. And what about, like, what's considered a secular show? Like a.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

It's just all shows, actually.

[Host 2]

Okay. So anything.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Okay, okay. Maybe that was the wrong word. Secular, maybe.

[Host 2]

Well, no, I'm very fascinated. This is very fascinating. I'm just trying to understand, like, where, you know, like, you're calling in and saying, like, okay, he. I found he wasn't as religious to me. I asked what did that mean? You mentioned, like, he kind of dabbled in secular music. You're not supposed to listen to. It sounds like you mostly don't. Is music different than, like, all jokes aside, like, you know, a podcast, A main, you know, that talks about sex and dating and talks about music and talks about TV shows, and all of these things, I'm assuming, are outside the purview of what you're supposed, you know. So where do you draw the line?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right, yeah, that's a really good question, actually, about drawing the Line. It's not even, I think the actually like the secular music. I think it's more is that he, he identified as someone who, that he, he wants to like a little bit, not, not be as rigid in those roles. And there was, there were other examples. Like he, he wanted me, he was going to Israel for, for a week and he invited me to come along and. I know, right? I know. I was like, that's like kind of scandalous. He's like, no, don't worry, we'll sleep in separate, in separate hotels. I was like, but he knows that that's kind of. That was, that was a bit, that was a bit much. But it was, it wasn't even just that. It was his whole dress. Like he, he, he would dress like, not, not like the way like religious guys dress and everything. Everything he did was just.

[Host 2]

Well, what did you think about that? Did you find that exciting or did you find that to be a turn off?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

It was both. It was both, yeah.

[Host 2]

Okay. And talk to me about the turnoff part.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Well, like, I'm very, very connected to the religion and to the community. Like when I was like, let's say like seen with him, it would like, people would always like raise eyebrows.

[Host 2]

And so the turnoff is more about your fear about how you two, or how you two as a couple and then subsequently you would be accepted in your community with this guy.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Definitely that part. But I think it was more, was. I felt like, like the. More like I would talk about religion and like my goals and, and just everything and he would be like, yeah, this is like, he's like, I want like a very religious girl, but I am not, I'm not as connected to it as you are.

[Host 2]

What do you want for yourself?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

What do I want for myself?

[Host 2]

Yeah, I mean, my understanding of most devout Orthodox or I mean, again, I come from a religious background, which is, and listen, as a new dad, as a new husband, like I am in my dad family era. And I think it's the greatest thing, you know, if that's something you want as a person, not to push anyone's on, but like having a family, having kids, having a partner, the most rewarding and greatest thing anyone can do. I am down for that. That, that being said, it seems like, you know, that, you know, and more conservative, devout Orthodox families, very, very traditional like it, like the woman's role is be a mom, be a, be a wife, raise a family, you know, be the caregiver. And you're very limited to those roles. Is, is that accurate in Terms of, like, what is expected of you and I guess what you want. Because when it comes to very devout religion, Right. I think a lot of people. What. What people struggle with. Right. Whether it's as devout as yours and as rigid as yours, or maybe say, like an up, up upbringing like mine, which is still pretty. I consider by most people very. A religious family, not certainly as orthodox as yours, but there's a lot of, like, what I was raised to want and for myself and what I was raised to believe and what I was taught to believe and what, you know, all these values that were instilled in me that are, you know, are important to me, but they're also important to me because they're partner to my family. And then there's the. As we get older, like, what we. What we realize we want, you know, and that struggle between, am I doing it for me? Am I doing it out of shame or guilt? Am I doing it because I believe in a higher purpose? All these things, the things that people struggle with. Right. You know, also, like, parents have a way of using religion. You know, all parents are afraid to, like, let their kids kind of go as they get into adulthood. And I think people who come from religious families, like, parents will use whatever levers they have and they can use religion to, like, make sure that their kids, like, stay kind of under their, like, influence. Yeah, I don't know. It's like. Yeah, it's just which. Which as a new parent, I empathize with, like, this idea of, you know, it won't always be like this, you know, type of thing. And so, you know, for you, I'm just trying to figure out what. What's the part that you're struggling with? Because I know you. You keep saying, you know, my, you know, my religion's really important to me. But, like, which part? Like what. What do you. What is a perfect forgetting about what anyone wants of you, your parents, God himself, or your friends? But if God said, what I want is for you to decide, what would you decide for yourself in life? Yeah, I mean, like, what. Just paint me a picture of your Of. Of your. Of your life, regardless of what any, you know, God says, hey, yeah, whatever. I just know that what I want for you and you can do no wrong, is for you to decide what your life looks like. And for me, that will make me the happiest. What. What would that be?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I would. I think I would want nothing more than to. Than to get married and have kids.

[Host 2]

Okay. And then. But. Okay, but what does that look like, you know, what does it look like? Yeah, you know, you could have, you know, there are, there are families who have kids who both parents work. Right. They're, you know, they're a family who has kids where the, the mom works and the dad's a stay at home mom. They're, you know, there's so many different family dynamics. You know, what is, what is like a day in the life look like, you know, are, you know, how are you raising your kids? You know?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, I mean, I would want to be wealthy. I would want, okay, great. I would want him to be making like most of the money, but I still would want to contribute and have my own. And I love my work. I teach first grade and I love it like every moment.

[Host 2]

So you want to still teach?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, definitely. Someone teach. I. And, and I would want like to like, live for that higher purpose. Like.

[Host 2]

And what does that mean?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

It would be like elevating every single, every small action that I do for God.

[Host 2]

Okay, what does that mean?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Does that mean.

[Host 2]

You know, I'm not trying, I'm just like, I want, you know, at some point you have to. I think the challenge you have is so much. So many of your answers are just kind of. It kind of reminds me of the story. And this is again, very, very interesting to me and very fascinating. I think, you know, religion is such a fascinating element. But when I was in, we used to call it CCD Catholicism. Like, it was ccd. It was like the after school for Catholic kids. And we'd go and we'd learn about, I guess, the Bible.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Did you connect to it or no?

[Host 2]

Oh, no, I hated it. Whatever. Well, also, Well, I mean, like, listen, I get. I came from a family where like a lot of, like we said the rosary as a family. Like, we prayed together as a family. Like, to me, like my. What my parents did in terms of instilling like God and in religion into our, our childhoods was more than anything like, than an after school church program was. It was kind of, I thought, silly. Right, right. So. But there was this kid. I went, his name is DJ and we would have like, little home. We'd have homework, right. And we'd have questions. And tj, I'd look over. TJ would. He would just write the. An every answer was just God, God, God, God, God, God. He wouldn't read the question. He would just write, God, God, God, God, God, God, God.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Oh, gosh. Am I sounding like that?

[Host 2]

No. Yeah. I mean, like a little bit in the sense that like, it's More like you're not. When I'm asking you some of these questions, you're like. You're not entirely sure how to answer it. And you're only answer it by saying, like, listen, I just want to make God happy. You know, I just want to. I want to serve God. God. I'm not sure I know what that means. I'm not sure if you know exactly what that means, right? As in adulthood. It's just a lot easier when we're kids and we grow up and our parents teach her these things and our rabbis teach us these things about, like, how to listen to God, how to follow God, like, follow the rules, right? Like. And you're just like, okay, cool, if I'm gonna do this because I want to be a good kid. And. And then, you know this guy that you met, right, that you had an interest in, who's, like. He's just more like, yeah. I mean, I like. I like religion and I like my family and I like God. But, like, I don. Like, I'm just gonna, like, bet on the fact that, like, if I listen to this song, I'm not gonna burn in hell. And I like this song. And so, like, whatever, like, I'm just gonna do this, and I'm not gonna live with the shame and guilt of whatever has been, like, instilled in me. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna fly to Israel and I'm gonna visit it. I'm gonna ask this girl, I, like, if she wants to come, and if she doesn't wanna come, that's fine, but if she does wanna come, like, well, you know, I'm not gonna. I don't wanna pressure her or force her to do anything she doesn't wanna do. But, like, we're just gonna be two adults going on a trip. And, like, I don't see the harm in that. And, like, whatever. And he is. He is thinking for himself, right? And he is. He is walking his own path and he is deciding, it sounds like that he is taking what he has learned as a child, you know, and whatever values were instilled in him, and he is starting to make decisions for himself and. And making his own set of rules. And, you know, the day he meets his maker, he's betting on the fact that, like, he's going to get it right, so to speak. Right. I don't know. Like, I guess that's kind of what I'm doing. You know, my views on religion and God, like, you know, not to get into that, obviously, have changed, but, like, Overall, I like to think I believe in a higher power. And I certainly, as I've said, you know, to other people, like, I live my life with this. Like, I don't know what I believe in these days, but I live my life that like, I am, I'm prepared to be held accountable for my choices if it comes to that, you know, and so that, that's how I live my life. You know, I don't know what, when, when that day comes where whoever shows up at the pearly gates or whatever, or whatever God looks like, you know, but I'm assuming I'm, I'm prepared to be held accountable for my choices. And that's kind of how I'm living my life as I get older and the more and more I get older and the more I have like my own thing, like right now, my focus in life is raising my family, doing what I think is right. And I have my moral compass. I am not checking in with my priest or my parents and asking them, what do you think I should do? What's the what. How does, you know, I am not really asking myself on a day to day basis what would God do here? I'm just, you know, I'm making decisions based off what I think is the right thing to do. And like, a lot of these are just more like, you know, you know, as river gets older right now, she's starting to like, not listen to us. Natalie and I are talking about how do we deal with that, right? I don't know. We're just making choices, you know, And I don't want to say God isn't part of that conversation. I mean, we're not, as either of us are not that religious of people, but like, you know what I'm saying? Like, the best way to describe is this guy you're talking about talking to. He is making choices for himself. And you are, you seem to be struggling to do that because your default is always like, what am I supposed to do? And what is, what is someone who loves God, what would she do? You know? And what, what is someone who's really devout to their relations, what would she do? And I feel like maybe I'm wrong, that that's how you ask yourself these questions as opposed to what do I want to do?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Oh, yeah, well, okay, fine. So there's, there's a couple of, there's a couple of things with, with. So I first I reached out to the matchmaker and I was like, oh. I also want to answer with. The other thing is for sure I have a massive super ego where I'm like, constantly, like, constantly buzzing in my head of, like, what should I do? Was I right? Was I wrong? Was I. This was like, that. Which it isn't. It isn't. It's a little bit heavy on. On that end. But. But with the guy, I was. I was trying to. To tell the matchmaker, like, can we just talk about religion at all? Because he. Every time we tried to talk about religion, he would, like, somehow, like, circumvent, like, I don't know. It just would never happen. And she did. She. She talked to him and he's like, yeah, I totally admit. I was totally, like, trying to. I'm worried if we talk about religion, it'll ruin the relationship. So I was definitely circumventing it. And every time she brought it up, I made sure to quickly switch the topic. Anyway, on the 11th date, which is honestly. Which is even kind of late in our community, like, to even be going out that much, but I, like. Like, we started talking about religion, and he said. He's like, I don't want you to ask me the nitty gritties of my religious observance.

[Host 2]

So he said that too.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

He said that to me. So I said to him, I'm like, okay, okay, I get it. And he's like, I just like, if you're okay with me, we could get married. But, like, if not, then. Then not. So I said to him, I was like, okay, fine, so I don't need to know exactly where. Where you're holding. But, like, is this at all, like, a goal for you? Like, like, do you. Is it. Are there any goals spiritually? You have anything?

[Host 2]

And he's like, no, Toby's not really. He's not really all religious at all.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Well, I mean, I think he. I mean, he said he's religious, so.

[Host 2]

He'S not acting religious. What he's acting like, again, based off of what you're telling me, is that he's certainly. He's playing the part in your community. He is, like, going through the matchmaker. I mean, he definitely sounds like a guy who's hooked up with a girl before.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Really? Do you think so?

[Host 2]

I don't. I don't know anything about this guy. He is a guy, religious or not.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I didn't. I was like, someone told me that too, and I just couldn't believe it.

[Host 2]

I'm basing this off of very little information, so I would not go off of, you know. Oh, my God, this is just a guess. It's a very Simplified guess based off the fact that he's a guy. And. And there have been popes back in the day who have, you know, stepped out of line, so to speak. You know what I'm saying? Like, humans are humans. 2. Like, he's clearly not that religious, right? And as someone who knows what it's like to grow up very religious and to have, like, slowly grown away from it, like, temptation, like, gets the best of us. And he is stretching his limits of, like, of, you know, of what he's willing to do outside of what he's been raised and told not to do. And usually in those cases, you know, sex of some kind or emotional or physical intimacy is a very appealing thing for a young man to want to look into or try. And it's certainly exciting, and it feels taboo, and anything, you know, I don't care if you're religious or not, you know, if it's taboo, it's a little titillating and a little exciting. And he has clearly shown a willingness and an interest to, like, you know, test those limits. And I don't know, like, it just makes a lot of sense that he.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Didn'T try to, like, ever touch me or anything.

[Host 2]

Well, he. Because you're very religious. He's. No, he knows that, you know, I. Listen, this is based off nothing, so I wouldn't accuse this guy of. Of anything. But my point is, is he's playing the part, right? He's. You know, but at the end of the day, he's. He's not. This is not a priority for him, Right. He wants to, you know, he wants to have a wife. He wants his family, he wants his community, and he wants to marry someone who, like, him, like, wants to put on severance at home and watch it with his wife and, like, not tell anyone.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Okay. So. Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

And.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

And I know, like, for him, like, he has, like, this very, you know, he. He doesn't see religion the same way because his parents were a lot more strict with him, and he found it very constraining. So I. And he's. He's like. He's massively into therapy. Like, he. He goes twice a week for eight years.

[Host 2]

Like, is that something like, are you. Is being Orthodox? Are they into therapy?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Totally.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I'm in therapy.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 2]

They're, like, By a therapist or like, a rabbi?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

That's a good question. No, no, by. By an actual therapist.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

All right.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

My father's actually a psychologist.

[Host 2]

Oh, really?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And does he. Does he work with people outside of.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Definitely.

[Host 2]

Really? Okay. Interesting. Well, how would your dad answer this question? I mean, have you talked to him about this stuff?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Oh, yeah.

[Host 2]

What does he say?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

He didn't like the guy, so that he liked him till that point. Then he's like this guy, he has like this idea that enjoying life is like, the way to live life because he was like, he was like, very into like, his cars and his this and his that and just enjoying life. And he's like, he's not willing to put in the work, in anything.

[Host 2]

So what, I mean, does your dad doesn't think you should enjoy life?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

He thinks I should enjoy life. Yeah, that's. He. He was. He liked the guy till the religious part.

[Host 2]

How does your dad balance the. You know, as a psychologist who works with people outside of his religion, how does he see the world between. He must recognize that his way of life and his values are. You are unique and, and aren't. Aren't shared by many people outside of his religion. And how does he, you know, and so many of your rules, again, are very, very rigid. How does he reconcile that in terms of. Yeah, no, I think judging, like, it, you know, like, because again, like talking about secular music, right? Like, like, I'm guessing you didn't watch Love island right now. Right? Like, so, like, let's assume you, for whatever reason, you just one day you watched Love island and you were like, I don't know, I'm just addicted to it. And it's just like really good and like, whatever. I know I'm not supposed to be watching, but like, ah, yolo. What would your parents think of that?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Oh, oh, they wouldn't. They would be like, you know, sometimes you need to enjoy yourself.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

And they would say, you know, maybe. Maybe it's a better thing you could do with your. Like, like, they wouldn't, they wouldn't judge me.

[Host 2]

Okay. And do you. What does your gut tell you? That both your parents have their own little thing that they do that maybe they shouldn't be doing, that they don't.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Like, I don't really think that. I don't know.

[Host 2]

Well, I don't know. I mean, in my experience, when it comes to, like the. More like, I just, you know, like I was raised, like, again, raising. When you're raised Catholic, that the core principle of like, that, like how I was raised is this more like, you know, your time here on Earth is, is. Has a purpose. And that purpose is to get to heaven. Right. And. And it is about kind of suffering through, you know, it's. Yeah, it's A. You know, suffering is a good thing because it, like, earns your way to heaven in a way. And so, like, you know, it justifies, like, hard times or whatever. I don't know. Well, I don't know.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I don't think that's the belief. I don't think so.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, no. And definitely not, like, with my parents. Like, they're very much, like, you have to really enjoy yourself. And even. Yeah. Like. Like, they're always, like, my father's always telling me, my mother also, they're always like, you know, get yourself all the clothes you need, get yourself everything you want. Like, they're very much into that. But it just. I just feel like I'm kind of stuck in this, like, bubble in a way, because here, everyone else already got married. Everyone else is, like, having their kids and this and that and. And then, I don't know, like, honestly, I don't know really what to do with my life, like, at this point, because I'm trying to get married. I so badly want to get to that next stage. And, yeah, I'm, like, working on myself, like, career wise, emotionally, spiritually, like, everything. And, like, I know you also kind of waited a while to got married. Yeah, Yeah, I just. I. I don't, like, I. I don't know what to do with myself.

[Host 2]

Like, honestly, like, what do you mean by. Like, do you live with your parents?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah. Yes. That's also part of the community thing. You live with your parents, they get married.

[Host 2]

Okay. What do you mean by you don't know what to do with your. Like, do you have friends?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right. Yeah, but basically everyone's married.

[Host 2]

Everyone's married. Yeah. I mean, it's just like your. Your lifestyle and religion so, like, unique. And it's hard for me to tell you what you think you should think and feel, because what you're describing, what I'm hearing, it's like. It has, like, hints of, like, a very. You know, it's like, it's not prearranged marriages. Like, you very much have a say. You know, you. You have not been liking these people you go on a date with or you've been matchmake made with. But it's still a very rigid process. You're not exactly going on the app, so to speak. You're not opening yourself up to, like, just anyone you're dating within your religion.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right.

[Host 2]

The. Just out of curiosity, the other men that you were introduced to, what were some of the reasons that you didn't dig them?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I don't know. Like, every guy Something else. Like, it just been, it's been awful. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Like, like physically you're not. Like, what? Like, I'm assuming some, you weren't physically.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Attracted to some of them, but I'm not, I'm not even so, like, it's so funny because I listen to the podcast and everyone's like, oh my gosh, you know, I, he has to be 6ft. I'm laughing because, like, Jewish men are so short. I'm like, yeah, I go out with like five foot three guys, five foot four guys. Like, it's totally fine for me, the height, but like, yeah, sometimes it's like. Yeah, I don't know.

[Host 2]

You're describing me, your perfect guy, with, with forgetting about. Assuming he's religious.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Assuming he's religious.

[Host 2]

Like, not about his religion, about how he is as a partner to you. Assuming he's meeting all your religious needs.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah. So someone like very like, emotionally in tune and smart, intelligent, like driven and not someone I don't really like. Like the guys that are super expressive and like, telling me all their emotions, but like someone like a little more contained so they could kind of balance me a little bit.

[Host 2]

Okay. How old are the men that you're dating?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

25 to 34.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I honestly think that, that a lot of this is kind of like my own father's fault because, like, I really want someone very similar to him. He's like, very. He's very much in both worlds in a way, you know?

[Host 2]

What do you mean?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

He's very like, kind of like what you said. He, he can, he can be in like the mainstream world and he, he charges tons for a 45 minute session with him. He like. Yeah, he, he, he does. He's very, he's a massive psychoanalyst and he' he's also incredibly religious. Like, he wakes up like, super, super early to pray, to learn the Torah and everything. And I, and I kind of want that balance, actually. You know, like, Nick, you really reminds me of my father a little bit. Like, he has that like, contained presence a little bit, you know?

[Host 2]

Yeah, I mean, it's. Well, one comes a little bit with age and wisdom. I'd be curious if your dad, if you asked your dad, was he always like this? What do you would say? I'm curious. Or just more like, what was your dad like when he was younger, you know, as a young man? Also, like, I just, I, you know, forgetting about Orthodox religion, I think as a society we are expecting less and less of our young men. And I think young men are maturing Even slower than they were. Yeah. And so I, you know. Are you noticing that with also the men in your religion, are they also just like a little emotionally immature or.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Do you. And do you feel like this guy that you liked, do you think he is unique in his. Not as religious, even though he's playing the part of being in the religion, or is he the most honest about it?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I thought he was like, really unique. I always think all the guys are.

[Host 2]

Super religious and when you get to know them at it shows.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't usually get. It usually doesn't go past like a date or two for each guy. Like this guy like went pretty far.

[Host 2]

Okay, what did you like about this guy?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

He's just, he was very warm, very like emotionally in tune. And he just, he, he like every time I would be like nervous about something, he'd be like, no, like, there's nothing you could ever do that would ever turn me off. Like, you are so like amazing. And he, he really had that amazing presence to him. Y.

[Host 2]

So other than the fact that he's not religious, he really dug him.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, I really liked him. I really, really did.

[Host 2]

And basically we're just like, can we have a religious, you know, a faith based relationship? He was kind of like, not really.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

So I, so I said to him, so he's like, yeah, like, are you like okay with me? Like that? I was like, how could I be okay with you? Like, not even having like one goal or anything, like just something. And he said, fine. I see. He's like, I guess you're. He's like, I guess you're breaking up with me. And then I was like, no, I'm not breaking up with you.

[Host 2]

Like when you say one goal, are you talking about like, is in life or like in his religion?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

In his religion.

[Host 2]

Like, what does he do for work even in life?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

He wasn't like, he made good money but like, he wasn't like ambitious about it. Like his goal was to kind of enjoy his life. So I said to him. So I was like, you know, I'm all. I'm like, I'm totally fine with you, like where you're at, but like, if you're not going to give me that inch, like, that's, that's kind of your decision. Like, you're the one kind of breaking up with me. And he's like, yeah. And then he, and he started crying and everything and he was like. And then that was it.

[Host 2]

That was. And when was that?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

That was like three months Ago.

[Host 2]

You haven't spoken them since?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, because you're not allowed. Like, you can't. Once you break out, you're not allowed to.

[Host 2]

Well, he's like. He's following other roles.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 2]

What? And then what's their dating pool look like?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Like, well, I'm excited. I'm going on a date tomorrow with another guy, which I also picked him out.

[Host 2]

Do you, like. Do you live in a big enough city where you have enough options?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, yeah, there's, like, it's. There's, like, a lot of options. Yeah, it's like.

[Host 2]

Do you know if you're, like, one of the. More like, how does. How does your community view you?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

What do you mean?

[Host 2]

Well, you're. I mean, assuming on some level your. Your community is small relative to, like, the world and, like, you know, the society in general has kind of lost touch with any sense of community in general. But, like, the. Obviously, a very positive aspect of religion is, like, you. You know, a lot of people get. Go back to church just because it's like, we need. We need a community, right? And church and faith and religion provides that. Even if you're not that religious. It's like, it's a great place that, you know, have donuts and juice after. After Mass, you know, but, like, in your religion, you know, religious or not, people gossip, you know, and moms love to talk about their kids and daughters. And here you are seeming like a very young, eligible young woman. Only 26 in my mind, but I'm. And maybe in old me. Yeah. In religious purposes, you're just like, I'm over the hill. But you must, you know, like. But you must be considered, like, someone who, you know, you're a beautiful person. You know, like, I'm imagining there must be, like, what's your. Are people not talking about you?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I. I honestly, I have no idea.

[Host 2]

Okay, that's probably best for the best.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I have no idea. Like, yeah, but definitely, like, my brother is, like, always, like, you have to keep a really good name. And, like. Like, you can't. You can't do anything too out there. I was like, okay, yeah, don't worry. I'm not going.

[Host 2]

Like, what does that mean? It's like, what's too out there?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Like, like, one time I told him that I, like, talked about therapy with a guy on the seat. He's like, why would you ever say that? Like, you're gonna ruin your name. Like, I was like, okay, fine. Okay, I won't say that.

[Host 2]

Your dad's a therapist.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, that was my Brother. My brother doesn't have a therapy. Oh right, my dad is.

[Host 2]

But why would it ruin your name? You talking about therapy?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I don't know. Honestly, because like maybe like you have like mental health issues or something like. I don't know.

[Host 2]

Well, that's kind of my point in the sense that like I think religion is and can be a beautiful thing to, for people. Right. I myself have seen some of the negative side of religion and how people weaponize it and use it for their own ungodly ways. And then often I think the intent of how people use religion is, is good. But like, you know, you're for example, your brother like seemed like he had your best interest in mind. Here he is, is like, oh my God, don't ruin your name by talking about therapy. You don't even know what he means by that. And he seems well intentioned and I think that's kind of sometimes when it comes to really devout religions. And that's why I think as an adult it's important to just at some point you have to have your moral compass that may very much be dictated greatly by your faith and religion and how you were raised. But it's gotta, it's gotta come from you. You have to decide for yourself. Your brother who get, you know, I guess on some level he has his opinion, I guess don't talk about therapy, but like, and he was passing on his beliefs that were unique to him on to you. Right. And, and I think sometimes if you don't have yours, it just kind of gets very confusing of who you're supposed to be and what you're supposed to follow. And I think it's just really important to just know what you think as a person who. It sounds like you've had great parents and they've raised you up and now it's time for you as a 26 year old adult to like make her choices for herself and be accountable for those choices. And just in general forgetting about dating something you need I, you know, I would say focus on because like otherwise you're just always kind of questioning yourself.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, that's, that's definitely what I was talking about with my therapist that I have to kind of have my own, my own thoughts about these things. Like, like there is also like just this guy tomorrow that I'm gonna go out with. I think he's, he seems really, really nice, but he also is a little bit less religious. But we'll see what happens there.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I'm just, I'm not surprised to hear that because I just think it's like religion in general is under fire by the world, right? Like, it's not. You know, there's that. And then I think more Orthodox, it's just like temptation is just everywhere. I mean, I don't know, like, do you even have a smartphone?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

So, yeah. Good. That's actually a really good question. Just till last year, I switched over.

[Host 2]

To a smartphone and like, hot. I mean, but like, a smartphone is basically a gateway to the secular world, right? Is it? Right. That's all it is. It's just a. It's a device to everything you shouldn't mess with.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right? Right.

[Host 2]

I'm guessing you can. There's apps for Orthodox Jews too, but I think so.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Not really.

[Host 2]

Okay, well then, like, you know, you know what I'm saying? So it's just like, how do you. And I'm not here to question anything. I just like. I guess my point is, like, you're. You are on some level, and I'm sure your parents are too. Your parents are definitely making choices for themselves. That part of you when, like, if I, If I said, well, what happens if I watch Lavala? And they would tell you like, oh, you know, I guess, like, enjoy yourself, like that mantra, right? Like, to me, that's a recognition that, like, even the most devout and God fearing Jewish people, Orthodox, like, you know, have their things that maybe they technically shouldn't do, but it's not hurting anyone and they get a little joy out of it. So, like, whatever. I think that that response is a recognition that, like, everyone kind of has their thing.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Because I find it so hard to believe that everyone has their thing. I. I think, like, I actually think I'm like. Like, in the school I teach in, I'm considered like, one of, like, the less religious.

[Host 2]

And is that silly based off of what? That you're not married yet?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, no. In terms of like, dress.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Dress. And like, how they look and just even, like. Yeah. The fact, like, I'm on here also just. Yeah. Even a question about. About, like, like, let's say like you and your wife. So here was, you know, you met this, like, this star of a person, and I'm sure it was hard for you to get over, like, let's say the age gap. So is there like a certain, you know, element of, like, when you find someone so amazing that you kind of, like, shake it up a little bit?

[Host 2]

I mean, you have. You definitely have to make compromises. I've. Natalie and I have both had to make a lot of compromises. You know, we're not all that self conscious about how we present to the world. We like to share a lot of things about our life. We definitely don't share everything about our life. And like, we certainly don't want to paint this picture of like this perfect couple. Like we are. We think we have a perfect relationship because again, we work so hard at it. But we've both, like, we had to, we have, we had to make sacrifices and compromises are. Because at the end of the day, we, we chose each other. You know, we're not very religious, right. So like, you know, my parent, my parents were introduced by a priest. Their, their marriage was centered around God. And that was a core principle of their relationship and a big part of my upbringing. And I had a great childhood, right. And while mine and Natalie's religion isn't centered around God, it's centered around our family and each other. And that is kind of our North Star. And so, yeah, I guess it's like you need a North Star. And for you, it's like you want that religion to be your North Star and your, in your relationship, which I think makes a lot of sense. And you're meeting men who maybe don't want that, I guess, and most of.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

The men do want that. But then I feel like I like the guys that are a little bit more open in a way.

[Host 2]

What is the thing that you like about them or what, what are the things that you don't like about the religious men that you're meeting? Like, is there a.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Like, I just, I, I find it just very hard to talk to them.

[Host 2]

Like they're, they're weird, maybe.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Like, I don't know, like, it's just like I'm like, thinking about like, some of the conversations like I had.

[Host 2]

Like, like, I'm trying to thread the needle here and explain this because obviously I want to be very respectful to your, your religion. I just. And you. Again, I'm curious what your dad would say about this, because he must recognize that it's, it's hard. It's got to be harder and harder and harder today to be a, a devout Orthodox Jewish person, man or woman. It's just, it is, you know, like, I mean, 50 years ago there were just a lot more religious people. So whether they shared your religion, they understood the concept of like, putting God first in their life and, and, and, and having more discipline in their life when it came to, like, having that balance. And discipline is not a core principle. I think a lot of young people are learning these days. I Mean, you're dating early 30 year old men, so it's not that they're that young and they're not like Gen Z, but I just think it's, I think it's very easy to get access to the outside world for anyone, including orthodox people. And I think the people who have been able to do that, they're, there's again this, whether this is fair or not, my assumption would be that they're so closed off to the outside world, which is why they're so religious. But that closed off and that disconnect is like they're just, they're not operating like, I don't know, I don't want to say normal, but like there's just, there's a little something like not connecting the dots where it's just like the only reason they're so religious is because they don't know anything, anything better or they don't know anything else. And so their devotion comes from knowing nothing else. Your dad is like the literal opposite, right? Like, like you mentioned that balance, right. He is in the outside world, he faces that temptation and he chooses not to for the most part, I'm assuming. But I guess he has his thing, you know, you know what I'm saying? He has his balance, whatever that is, and he can go through life as a man who like, can just be a normal person, you know. And, and does that make any sense?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

You know, I don't, no, no, it makes, it makes, makes a lot of sense.

[Host 2]

And you're meaning men that like, you know, have seen a little bit of the outside world and, and unlike, I guess your dad have, have been like, yeah, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm digging.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

This kind of thing and yeah, that's it.

[Host 2]

I, I would really be curious how much have you talked to your parents about how they were in their 20s outside of like God?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, yeah, no, I did talk to them. They also had a hard time finding, finding each other.

[Host 2]

Okay. Yeah. It wouldn't shock me if your dad was your dad. Did your dad ever have a period in his life where he was a little less religious?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, like he wouldn't, he didn't like, like touch anyone. Like, like.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I don't mean about whatever. Maybe it was music. Like.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, like he, he said like, you know, in his 20s he kind of felt a little bit, he, it was hard for him to be in the same level of religion and you know, like, you know, they pray three times a day, the men and like all that. So he said it was very hard for him.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I think that's normal, I guess, is what I'm saying. And I just wonder if I'm not. I don't know how helpful I'm being here, but it makes a lot of sense that men in your community, the type of guy you're looking for is a type of guy who grows up in your community, devout, religious, you know, believes in the same thing you believe, believe in and will most likely probably at some point in their 20s, late 30s, lose their religion a little bit, dabble in the outside secular world a little bit. Right. Be tempted and then find their way back to their faith in God and, you know, but like, that. That losing their religion allows them to kind of like, I don't know, just learn a little bit about the world, understand it, know how to include it, but not be immersed by it, you know, and so they feel a little more normal as opposed to like, you know, a caged tiger who's never really seen the light of day. And I feel like a lot of.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Like, some of the guys feel that way. Like. Like, I feel like they're like, you go on a date with them and they. They don't know what to do with themselves. They have all this, like, extra energy that they're just like.

[Host 2]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because, like, a lot of. A lot about the way there's a. So there's so many threads that potentially in layers to pull back here, but, like, a lot about devout religion is about suppression and. Right. I mean, it just is. And. And that can. And how that channel. How that's channeled. Right. Could be. Your dad sounds like a man who's been able to find that balance he hit. It's. It doesn't maybe feel like suppression to him. It feels like sacrifice and devotion and the ability to, like, channel that healthy in a healthy way where like, maybe young men who have only just been told what not to do and then like, just kind of operate from a place of fear so they don't try other things, and they're just. They're suppressed, you know, and they don't know how to, you know, channel their emotions and their feelings, and they, you know, they don't know any better. So they're, you know, by the time they show up across the table from you, you're just like, what am I this for real? Like. And then you meet the guys who are a little bit more normal, and they're like, I don't know if I'm ready for this whole, like, hardcore Devotion thing.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's. Yeah, you, you did it. You summed it up really, really well. It's. Yeah, I didn't even think about it. That's the reason. That's why I don't like the more religious guys. Not, not that some of them aren't like relaxed and not like a caged tiger, but some of them, it's like, I don't even know. Like, I'm just like, where are you coming from? Like, like, what's going on here?

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, it's actually happening. Like, I don't know what's disappointing with the last guys because like it had he just been like, listen, I'm. If I'm being totally honest, I, I'm definitely like, I question my religion more than maybe I used to as a young man.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

But if he said that I would have married him, I would have. Like, he, he didn't, he didn't give me any talking things. Like nothing.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And if, and if he would have said, like, I just want to be honest about that. But like, obviously I want to raise our kids and I want us to have a faith based life and I want us to like have God be like a centerpiece in our marriage. But like, at the same time, just to be totally honest with you, like, I'm, I'm going to watch Love island and sometimes I just need to shake it up and, and be a bad boy. I don't know. I feel like. Yeah, you would have been down for that.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, I would have. Yeah, I would have done it.

[Host 2]

So maybe that, that's your balance, you know, that's, you know, that's what you.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Like, you don't think I made a mistake with that last guy?

[Host 2]

No. Because he gave you nothing.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right?

[Host 2]

You know?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right, right. It was dead.

[Host 2]

Because you do, like, religion's important to you. That's a non negotiable for you. Right? Like you, you. It sounds like talking to you. You will meet. You're willing to marry someone who like I just described is like honest about the fact that like they question their religion more than they feel like they should sometimes. They, they have done things and dabbled and tried things out that are quote unquote, you know, they're not supposed to do or against their religion and they've, they've made some choices that maybe the rest of their community might frown upon. But like, you're the woman I'm, I'm gonna get engaged to, so I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you everything and I Hope that you accept me, but I've. I've been bad. So, you know, and. And. But like, I definitely want us to raise our kids in. In. In this church, and I want us to challenge each other about our faith without judging each other and shaming each other and just find that balance and then, you know. That sounds like you're down for that, right?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, I am.

[Host 2]

You know, there you go. I mean, and then how do you. Do you ever. With these men? Like, so my last take, like, what I'll leave you with is if you meet that type of guy, like this last guy. Now, again, I don't think you made a mistake, but, like, I guess, what do you offer? Do you meet. Do you meet them at their level, so to speak?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I'm so.

[Host 2]

Yes, I'm confusing you.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Okay, sorry. Well, if. If you're meeting a guy who like, like, says what I just said, right. That's how he presents. Do you offer up anything to relate to them?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right. Yeah.

[Host 2]

You know, in terms of things that technically you shouldn't be doing, or do you ever question your religion? Do you ever have doubts about things? Do you dabble in secular things from time to time that maybe you shouldn't do? You know that's what I'm saying. Medium, at their level. Because if someone's going to come to you and say, hey, if I can be totally honest, this is how I feel, and you're like, well, I don't relate. I'm just. I love God. And everything I've learned is like, that's what I want and I'm hardcore and that's who I am. Like, that. That's going to be harder for that guy to feel accepted or like that you're a match and, you know, you're going to have to meet him at his level, at your comfort level, if that makes sense.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, yeah. No, no, I think I. I mean, maybe I could do more of it. Yeah, I could do more of that. I think I do. I think I. Like, usually it's not a problem. Usually the guys end up sharing way too much with me. That's usually what happens.

[Host 2]

But, I mean, I would. I don't know what it'd be like to have to try to have six dates and then get engaged. I would, I would. I would. I would tell you everything, too. I'd be like, all right, well, there's no secrets here. So, like.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah, yeah, they usually just like it. Just share and just like it. Just like their entire lifestyle come out. Like, it's just that's just what I think. That's just what happens.

[Host 2]

You know, it's interesting talking to you and I. We do have to wrap it up. But, like, you present as someone, and again, this is maybe just an unfair stereotype.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But you and I. And again, I'm very comfortable and familiar with very religious people. But you, you sound like a normal person. You know, you all, you, you come across as a woman who's at least familiar with how, like, the normal secular world dates. And you have some of the same standards and desires and particular interests that other women also have coupled with this very religious background, you know? And so it's not surprising to me that you're having a hard time finding your very religious equal.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yes. Wow. You nailed it. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Like, like, I feel like if you were, like, you know what? I'm gonna go and date, like, I'm gonna go on the apps, you would find a lot of men interested in dating you, whether you would want to date them or not. But I don't think a lot of men would be like, who's this weird religious freak?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Oh, my gosh. Wow. Thank you. Well, that's.

[Host 2]

I, you know, I wouldn't know.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

I wouldn't know.

[Host 2]

I know you wouldn't know, but. But I also feel like even the.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Fact that you said I was beautiful, like, you have no idea. Like, I'm, like, totally keeping that comment with me because no one ever, like, no one tells me that, like, Like a guy's not allowed to say that on a date. So, like, the fact that you said that, like, you, you probably step outside.

[Host 2]

I mean, there's just a certain level objective, like, you know, you're, you're an attractive person.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, thank you. No, I just, I'm gonna definitely keep that comment with me because, like, nobody.

[Host 2]

Guys you're on dates with, they can't. Are they not.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

They're not allowed to say that.

[Host 2]

Crazy.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No. No, they're not. They're not allowed to comment my looks at all.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it's just like, I, I, I don't, you know, I don't know how far I've been much helpful, but, like, yeah, there's. You guys have a lot of rules that are just hard, hard even for me to comprehend how to, you know, because you're trying to strike that balance between, hey, listen, your parents are going to pick your husband, and you're just going to make it work kind of life, like, in a prearranged marriage versus, like, you know, the wrestler Will, which is like, hey, go find what you think your best fit is. And the world's gotten pickier and pickier and now we have all these apps and everyone has all these options and no, like, everyone's just like, ah, I just like, I want to pick the perfect person. And everyone's like spending their entire adult life waiting for perfect when they kind of just need to pick someone who's like a nice match to them and then figure out how to make it work, you know, because that's like, that's how you know it works. But like, you're, you're trying to do both.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And you, you have to. You. I guess I'll leave you to this. You have to find your balance too.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Is that it's, it's not settled yet in me. You're saying my own balance.

[Host 2]

It's. I'm not convinced you know exactly what you want for yourself. I think you have an idea of what your life looks like, but in terms of the day to day, like, you know, I just think as human beings, even the most religious people, like have. Everyone has their vices. Every, you know, you have a wandering mind. Like, what are, what are your fan. I don't need to hear them. But like, what are your fantasies like when you're, you know what I'm saying?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

And like these, like, you're not really, that's also a rule you're not really supposed to have.

[Host 2]

Like, but it doesn't matter what you're supposed to have. You're a human being and you're, you know what I'm saying? Your dad has thoughts and your mom's mind wonders. They might come, they might catch themselves and go, oh, nope. But like, you know what I'm saying, that part of you that has curiosity and asks questions about the world and the meaning of life and like is, is. Is seduced by whatever thing they're not supposed to watch. Like, you know, like human beings, like, you're a human being and so human beings, like have to deal with all these emotions, you know, and, and you're a human being that's a part of this community and it's important to you. And you're trying to strike that balance of a very historic and a very ancient and a very old religion and a very modern time. And that's a challenge.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

It is.

[Host 2]

But I think it's really important for you to find more and more about like your core principles and your North Star and how you include God into your life rather than the answer to all this question, is God? Does that make sense?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, it makes really, like, a lot of sense. And, like, I appreciate you taking the time to really figure that out with me.

[Host 2]

All right, well, hopefully this is helpful. I'm very fascinated. If you ever want to call for a follow up, we'd love an update on your dating life. We'd love to follow your story and your journey.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I mean, like, the most I know about the Orthodox Jewish religion is that show Orthodox on, On Netflix, which was, like, popular in the pandemic.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

It was, right? Is it, is it sounding similar?

[Host 2]

Well, a lot of it. I mean, like, that, that paints a very. Again, like that. Even that, even that show taught, you know, there's there. That show recognized some of the unhealthy aspects of that community and religion. I don't know how, how accurate that stuff was, but every religion has their dark side, you know, and every religion, like, again, a lot of it is based off suppression and shame. A lot of it is how it is interpreted and how it is done, you know, like.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, no, I, I think people could take religion and, and, and make it the best thing or make it the worst thing.

[Host 2]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah. It's how, it's how you take it.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But, yeah, thank you so much. Try doing. I gotta think you got to find your things that you do for yourself, even if you're not supposed to do it.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Okay. Okay.

[Host 2]

I don't want to be like, you know, and influence your life negatively or, like, I don't know if your parents listen to this, but I just. You gotta find your, Your dad has his own moral compass. I'm convinced by that.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. If you and me, you, you're literally like him. Like, I, I, I mean, I always tell that to my father. He's like, okay, sounds cool.

[Host 2]

I don't know if I.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No, no, he's very, he's very similar. Like in, like. Yeah, he just, he just is, you know, like, he just, he, he gives it as it is and.

[Host 2]

Yeah, well, yeah, but like, that your dad's ability to be a very devout religious man is that he has conviction, conviction in himself.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right.

[Host 2]

He is following his compass. That is based off of his religion. He doesn't question himself. And he is, I'm guessing, prepared to be held accountable for whenever he meets his maker. I think you make a lot of decisions based on what you think you should do.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And I don't think your dad spends a lot of time questioning that. I think he knows what he should do and he does it okay.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

All right.

[Host 2]

You should channel your dad.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Okay. Thank you so much for that. All right.

[Host 2]

All right.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

So, so good talking to you.

[Host 2]

Thanks for the call. It's a pleasure. Bye. Bye. Spring cleaning means refreshing everything, including our wine fridge. And that's why we love our First Leaf membership. They always keep our selection fresh by sending us the perfect case of personalized wines right to our door. Whether we're craving a light red, a crisp white, or refreshing rose, we are always stocked and ready to enjoy a glass of wine on a sunny day or any spring gathering. They get your taste, you know, the more, you know, they work with them, the more they understand your vibe and what your preferences are. And it's just great. Always enjoying a great bottle of wine and a new bottle of wine and one that's not based off of labeled. I've said this before, but before first leave when I would go buy one at the grocery store, I would just like, I don't know, a certain price point, find a label I thought was cool. I had no idea anything about it. What. But with First Leaf, it's, it's a fun experience to like, learn a little bit more about wines you enjoy and different regions and different preferences and pairing with different meals. There's literally a science behind it. And let the good people at First Leaf do that work. So you can just keep enjoying wine and stop lugging heavy bottles of wine. First Leaf. It delivers right to your door. It's easy, convenient. Stop and start it whenever you need. It's incredible. Can't recommend it enough. And so enjoy the fresh vibes of spring with wines you'll love from First Leaf. Go to try firstleaf.com fill to sign up and you'll get your first six hand picked bot for just 44. 95. That's T R Y F I R S T l e a f.com/via l l try first leave.com/v I a L L. You know what's more stressful than a Monday morning meeting? Realizing you're out of everything before the day even starts. And that's exactly why we stocked up during Thrive markets Back to school sale. Thrive has been a lifesaver for our family. Well one, obviously as new parents, we're even that much more conscious about our health and the food that we eat and more particularly the food that we feed our daughter. And Thrive market has a lot of great healthy options. Everything they have is great and health conscious. Thrive lets us shop by diet values or even food phases because let's be real, your kids Taste preferences change weekly. So easy to shop at Thrive. Again, different categories, different preferences, different diets. No matter what your preferences are, Thrive Market feels like it's always tailored to you. Also, you know, you know, have a good snack. We love snacks. Our last order is packed with snacks. Yummer Gummies, Aloha bars. Their poppy sodas are some of our favorite snack options. They might be yours as well. You can find them all at Thrive Market. And last time I was, we were shopping, I saved like 25. So the savings are there as well as the quality of food. So if you are tired of going to the grocery store, you don't have the time or just you feel like there's just a lot of bad options. You just want to streamline your grocery shopping experience. Check out Thrive Market. I promise you, you won't regret it. We use Thrive Market because it's easy and we can find all the things that our family need in one place. So go to thrive market.com v I a l l and start saving today. Sale ends August 31st. Again, that's thrive market.com/v I a L L. And don't forget, new members also get 30% off their first order and a free gift. So now, now is the perfect time to check out Thrive Market for the first time. How's it going?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

It's good. My Name's Hattie. I'm 29 years old, and my due date is the day after my best friend's wedding.

[Host 2]

Sucks. You're a friend?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

So, like, what do you.

[Host 2]

What are your options? Like, what do you. Well, what can I help you with? Like, to decide if you should, like, skip the delivery or what?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Like, that's obviously not an option, but I actually wound up having a dream and it went horribly right. So I panicked and I called her the next day. Cause I was like, I can't. I can't keep it to myself anymore. It's like it's harboring itself in other ways now. So I went ahead and I told her, and she actually took it way better than I thought she was going to.

[Host 2]

How'd you think she was going to take it?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

I thought she was going to. Like, in my dream, she, like, didn't want to be my friend anymore. She was like, you did this on purpose? Like, made it sound like I was malicious. And I was. I was just devastated.

[Host 2]

Is this a healthy friendship or.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yes, it really is. Like, I don't know. I just am an anxious person and I don't like to let people down or disappoint them. So I think it's just like a me thing. But, you know, she took it well. She was like, you know, it sucks. I'm sad.

[Host 2]

Is this in the dream or in reality?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

No, in real life. In real life she was like, I wish you could be there. Like, I hope that's how it works out. Like maybe you deliver three weeks early and can still try to like just be a guest. And I was like, yeah, like that. You know, that's best case scenario.

[Host 2]

Supposed to be a maid of honor and. Or bridesmaid.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

I'm supposed to be a bridesmaid and my daughter, who is 2, is supposed to be her flower girl.

[Host 2]

Can your daughter still go?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yes. So I talked to my in laws and my in laws live like two hours away from where the wedding's going to be and they offered to take her so that she can still be a part of it.

[Host 2]

Honestly, that seems like a great thing because. Is this your second child?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

This will be my second.

[Host 2]

Okay. Yes. I, you know, there's always like, oh, you know, how do you, like, what's the, you know, that transition from one to two kids and right now your whole world is your daughter. Right. And now, right now it's supposed to be something else. And this will give your daughter like a moment. She'll be, she'll probably feel really cool and she'll be the flower girl. And it like, it's, it's actually like from a timing standpoint in that regard as it relates to like giving her something, your daughter to focus on. And while you're, you're focused on your newborn and you're not feeling guilt about what your daughter's doing, you know that she's like having an exciting moment. Moment she'll be excited to talk to you about and like kind of cool.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah, that's, you know, that's what I'm hoping for. I'm hoping that she doesn't have like a complete meltdown without me. She's only been away from me once. I'm a stay at home mom. So like I don't have a ton of time away from her. So that's. Yeah. Best case scenario. It's like a great experience for her and you know, she still gets to have her flower girl. I just may not be there.

[Host 2]

How many months, how many months away is your due date?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

It is, I guess like seven, eight, I don't know. I'm doing March, so.

[Host 2]

Okay. So you have some time to. One. Just one. You know, just maybe create a not great distance between your daughter but like, I'm sure, you know, like just, you.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Know, build independence and confidence.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Slowly but surely, you know, like, we are very active in River's life and we're, you know, we're. Natalie is, I guess, essentially a stay at home mom. But like, we have very busy lives and we have cool opportunities and we have, are lucky enough to have, you know, grandmas and friends be like, help with childcare and things like that. But the most we've left river for is three nights. First it was one night, then it was two nights and it was, you know, and it's, you know, it's like. But so, you know, a little bit here or there and you know, it's not easy for Natalie. I'm always, you know, but it's like this is she. She learns that we're coming for them. Yeah. She learns that we come back and things like that. So, you know, something to be mindful of. If you're worried about, you know, your daughter's ability to handle that now it's like another. It's a goal to try it out, work towards that.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Absolutely. Okay, well, I have a whole other like, layer to this. So the bride took it fine. Right. She was like, happy for you, sucks for me, but it's going to be okay in the end. So I called her maid of honor, which was also my maid of honor. Like we're in this like tight knit group of friends. And she essentially told me that I should have waited four weeks and that it was. She didn't say I was selfish, but like, that's how it made me feel. Like insinuated that.

[Host 2]

What do you mean you should have waited four weeks?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

That I shouldn't have gotten pregnant? That my husband and I should have been more careful.

[Host 2]

That is an insane thing.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. Yeah. It was not fun.

[Host 2]

So like, but like, but like also like that's just, you know, you have to just understand that's an insane thing for her to say and she's just a hundred percent wrong.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

I'm glad that you said that because that's, I mean every. Anybody else that I've like talked to about it is like, I can't believe she said that to you.

[Host 2]

But it's so difficult to have a kid. It's such a blessing to get pregnant and begin with. So many families struggle with it. To sit there and decide that, you know, you're doing family planning around, like nothing out, like there's nothing, no one, no one else really matters. I don't know. That's my opinion. It's your family and, like, you know, like, it all. You. You. Yeah, it's an insane thing also because, like, you don't know. No. You didn't know you were going to get pregnant, you know?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

No. And we. My husband and I had talked, like, we have been wanting another one for about a year now, but we decided that we were going to start trying after my daughter turned 2, which she turned to, like, literally a few weeks ago. So we wound up getting pregnant just, like, a little bit before, like, what we were already planning, and my friends already knew that. That that was something like, my husband and I had been talking about something that we were going to start doing. So to me, it shouldn't have even been that shocking that it happened, even if it happened sooner than what was expected.

[Host 2]

So how did you leave the thing? What did she actually say?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

I sent a message or I sent, like, a screenshot of, like, what she had said to me after the phone call. Because I. When I called her on the phone, I told her. She was like, I'm happy for you, but, like, I'm confused, like, why you didn't wait four weeks. And then I was like, well, I'm stepping back from, like, bridesmaid things. I said, I'll still go to the bachelorette party. That's fine. Like, it's early enough in the pregnancy.

[Host 2]

You didn't say anything in response to that? You just let her go?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

No, I. I just kind of blew over it because I was like, what am I gonna say? Well, I'm not going to justify my actions to you. And then when she texted me, it was kind of along the same lines, like, I don't understand why you didn't wait four weeks. And then it's extremely unfair to our friend that she doesn't get to have you there because of the choice that you made. And does this.

[Host 2]

Does this person have kids?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

No. And she doesn't want children, like, ever.

[Host 2]

Oh, okay.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. Which is a whole other. Like, you don't even understand what it's like.

[Host 2]

I think you just ignore. I mean, like, yeah, there's no. Don't waste your breath explaining. I mean, I myself, I would have been like, it's none of your fucking business. You don't know what you're talking about. But thanks for sharing your opinion. That's what I would have said, but I'm not. That. That. That's not. That's definitely not like, the.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

The.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah, I told her. I said, your feelings are valid. And I said, you know, so is the bride's feelings they're valid. Like, it's, It's. It's an upset, right? Like, her day is, like, gonna be different because I'm not there. I was like.

[Host 2]

But I mean, I don't know. Like, I. It's. Whatever. I. You know, you're. You're. It's her wedding. It's not your wedding, you know? And yes, would have been nice that her. One of her best friends would be there for sure. But if her. If she's wasting her. Any part of her day thinking, oh, I wish she was there, like, that's. I don't know. I don't remember giving a. About who wasn't at my wedding on the day of my wedding. That was not a concern of mine.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

That's true.

[Host 2]

You know, and it's not that I was. You know, there are some people who couldn't make it. Some people I really wanted to come and that. And shit happens and life happens and I. A couple family members not being able to make it for choices that I didn't personally. Like, I. I didn't. Oh, like. But whatever, it's fine. Like, no, it's like, it's just a day.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

It's just a day. Yeah.

[Host 2]

You know, and that's a day that's supposed to be special to her. It's not.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

And her husband.

[Host 2]

And her husband. And it's just.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

The rest is all bullshit.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Correct? The rest is a show. Like, you know what I mean? Like, me standing up there, that's like, part of the show. It doesn't have any impact in the, like, the longevity of their relationship.

[Host 2]

No.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Like, so it would be great to be there to support her because we've been friends for 10 years and, like, I get it, but I don't know. To me, it's not the end all, be all.

[Host 2]

I only say this year because you need to know this, right? And like, yeah, I. I have a gift, and that is to not give a fuck about things that I know I shouldn't give a fuck about. And I just leave it out the door and I move on with my life.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

I'm envious of that. I will fixate and I have been fixating.

[Host 2]

Like, but you just need to know. You need, like, listen, it's important to know when you're not right. It's important to be able to be humble and say, hey, it's good for me to get some feedback from people or. Or for someone who's close to you to sit you down and say, hey, I think you're being a little, like, self Centered right now. It is important to have those qualities. It's also important to know when like you're right, you know? And you're right for whatever reason, you know, because it's. This is a decision I made for my family and I don't need outside voices. And if that outside voice is my mom or, or my best friend or my, my father in law, fuck em because like they're wrong, you know, and like it's none of their goddamn business. And when it comes to like adulthood and having your family and planning your family and having a relationship with your husband and being parents together and raising your kids, you guys need to make a ton of decisions together. And it's great to get feedback from people who are, you know, older and wiser and have been there before. And it's great to seek out advice. But the end of the day, you need to know what is right and is wrong and you need to know when to shut outside noise out. Especially now that you're pregnant.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah, it's been like so stressful. Like honestly since I found out my due date, I was like, oh, like it's just been, you know what I'm saying?

[Host 2]

You're, you know, like, you know how, you know stress and it's not, you.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Know, it's not good.

[Host 2]

You know what I'm saying? And like put. You put your priorities in line. This chick who doesn't want a life remotely like yours or, or the overall health of your. Your baby. Like what's more important, Her. Her feelings or your baby's health?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Valid. Yeah.

[Host 2]

And like it's that simple. Like, and so then you just stop giving a. About some girl whose lives is only. I don't know if. Are you friends with this girl?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah, like she was my maid of honor and I was her maid of honor. So like we.

[Host 2]

Not. Not the bride I'm talking about.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah, the maid of honor is. Was also my maid of honor and I was her maid of honor. So like we're actually.

[Host 2]

The chances you're gonna continue to grow further and further apart. Not because you just want different things. She doesn't. You want a family and you're gonna invest, you know, and she doesn't. And I, you know, once kids show up, like, it just changes your calculus as, you know, like not personal. It's not. You know, I have buddies who aren't parents. It's not. We're still friends, but I, you know, it's different.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah, it's not the same, you know. So I have another question for you then. Okay, so I. We're supposed to go to the. On, like, a late trip with them in two weeks. Like, the maid of. So the maid of honor and her husband and then the bride and her fiance and me and my husband and my daughter were all. We're all supposed to go together and spend, like, a weekend at the lake.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

And.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

And like, after the conversation that we had, I just. I don't. I don't necessarily. I feel like there's just going to be a lot of tension and it's going to be like, one of those things where, like, we're playing nice and. Or it has, like, the potential to blow up because my husband is pissed right now at her, and he is. I get it very much like you in the aspect where he's like, literally fudge her. Like, this is ridiculous. And he wanted me to respond a lot differently than I did with, like, your feelings are valid. And, you know, like, he's like, no, you should have put her in her place. So I'm really scared that my husband, if we went, would. Would do just that.

[Host 2]

Do you think you could have this conversation with her without stressing yourself out one. First and foremost, with a little bit more authority, tell her a little bit more honestly about how you feel and hopes that she would just, like, you know, just say, hey. And it goes something like, listen, your comments to me the other day bothered me a little bit. Like, I understand that you were just trying to be a friend to. To Megan, but, like, and. And I totally get that you, you know, you don't want what I want, but, like, you definitely overstepped when it came to, like, sharing your opinion about, like, how I'm building my family in my life. And, like, I'm not even get into, like, what you said, but, like, I. I'm not planning. I'm not planning on, like, having, like. I don't even know how you say it, but let's just, like, that was none of your business, and that was a really insensitive thing to say to me. And. And whatever your husband's name is, you don't need to show. And. And she should apologize.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

You think she owes me an apology?

[Host 2]

I think she. I think she needs to recognize that it was insensitive whether she wants to have kids or not to, like, understand, like, the position of a pregnant woman and the emotional, like, the. The just the sensitivity around that, you know, and that she decided to put what she could only assume that you probably felt bad about not going. You know, she. Right. I'm assuming she so, like, the fact that she decided to, in that moment, say something that would only make you feel more bad or more guilty about something that, like, you didn't want this, but for you, you know, but for her to assume that you're going to family plan around a friend's wedding is the most absurd thing.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah, I. And the thing is, is, like, my husband and I have been talking about, like, not going and then, like, the direction in which to, like, do we lie? Do we just say, like, oh, dog sitters fell through, like, can't make it, or do we be honest? Because this isn't like, the first time she's, like, done.

[Host 2]

Yeah, you got to be honest. You got to get you. If she's a real friend, this person was your maid of honor. Give her a chance to see your point of view. Like, you don't. This isn't. You don't guys enough to turn this into a high school fight. And you don't have to. This doesn't require kicking and screaming and name calling, and it doesn't need to turn into drama. But if this person is a friend that's worth continuing to invest in into adulthood, she should understand you and your husband's point of view. And if she can't, that is definitely a red flag and maybe a signal that, like, this isn't a friendship you guys should do much investing in because, like, you're not judging her for her choices. She doesn't want to have kids, that's fine. God bless her. Whatever she wants to do of her life is. Is cool. Listen, I guess. Yeah, I guess before you have kids, it's just, you know, like, it. You. You do.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

It's super easy before you have kids to be able to say, like, you could have waited four weeks before you had kids.

[Host 2]

Well, yeah, because you. You. The only thing you prioritize is like, I guess your job boss is like, okay, well, you can either have vacation or not have vacation or. But other than that, you get to do whatever the heck you want in life. You know, your priority, I guess, is your friends and family, you know, or, you know, trips you want to take or, like, bucket list things that you want to do. And then, like, you just kind of. Yeah, you make things work. But yeah, what your friend doesn't understand is, like, once kids are in the equation and, like, clearly she's never experienced trying to get pregnant and the difficulties around that and just, you know, and you don't really need her to understand that. But, like, she should at least understand a little bit about that it's certainly none of her business. And that as a. As a pregnant woman, that wasn't really her call to make you feel more bad about something that. Is this really none of her business? And something that, at a minimum, whether she wants to have kids or not, should have been able to, like, have a little more empathy for someone who does.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Correct. And like, I. And I think the reason why, you know, like, I told her, like, your feelings are valid, because I do see both sides, I guess, in the essence of, like, I do have a friend who's getting married. This is an important day for her, and I wish I could be there. But on the flip side, like, two. Two things can be true at once, where two happy things can be happening at once. Like, somebody can get. Be married and somebody can be having a kid. Like, and I just felt like I thought she was going to be bipartial and be able to see that, like, there's two happy events happening and that it wouldn't have, like, blown up into how she feels. So it's not.

[Host 2]

It's not about her feelings. It's not even her goddamn wedding.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

No, it's not. But she's, like, made this about her and, like, protecting our friend. And I don't understand, to me, it feels like almost too, that she's picked a friend over the other. Like my other. My other friend, the bride. Her feelings are more valid or more important than mine.

[Host 2]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe to her, I don't know.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

And maybe that's not true. That's just how I feel.

[Host 2]

Well, you're talking about someone who doesn't want kids and doesn't see the value in having kids. And it's not a priority to her, but getting married was. And having that party. It was. And yeah, a lot of people get married because they want to have a family and want to have that partnership and raising a family, that's like, what.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

It ultimately leads to. Yeah.

[Host 2]

I don't know what your friend is like. You know, I'm not saying the only reason you get married is for that. I'm just saying.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Right.

[Host 2]

Having kids brings so much purpose into your life. You don't have time for other things that you found purposeful that you now find trivial. Doesn't make you right or them wrong. It just changes your perspective. And the reality is, is that there are things that she still values greatly that you kind of find to be superficial or trivial now, now that you've brought other things into your life. And I'm not. You're not. Right. And she's wrong, but she needs to at least respect your choices. And. And she. You know, I do think whether you want to have kids or not, you need to respect that. Like, if you. If there are people in your life you care about who do want to have kids, you need to recognize the sensitivity around how important it is to not stress out, you know, that person. And if you're a friend who puts their feelings over the feelings of your pregnant friend, that would ultimately cause them stress, especially when there's nothing to do with you. Just because out of, like, principle, like, what. What is the hill that she's dying on here?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

To me, I don't even. At this point, I don't even know, because I feel like. I said, I feel like she, like, picked a side. It's like this friend's, like, day is more important than you bringing an addition into the family. Like.

[Host 2]

Yeah, but I don't think she. I don't think she picked it. I think that's just, like, where her priorities lie. She can't. She doesn't relate to you.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. She has no idea what it's like to.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

But she a mom.

[Host 2]

But she. Yeah. So to be. To continue to be a friend in your life, you need to know that she can empathize with you. And maybe in the heat of the moment, this is how she handled it. But, like, if you calmly come. Come to her as a friend and say, hey, listen, that, like, definitely hurt our feelings. I think, you know, it one. It just hurts. It hurt my feelings knowing that, like, obviously I'm heartbroken. I can't be there. I'm. I'm. I feel bad. I've had guilt over it. So for you to. After I had already talked to Emily about it, and now I'm talking, and she was generally, like, obviously sad but okay with it, only to get, like, your response and basically telling me, like, I should have not gotten pregnant is honestly kind of a crazy, insensitive thing for you to say to me. And it just really hurt my feelings. And I think that's what you say and see how she. See how she responds. And maybe. And I would say it hurt our feelings.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. Like, my husband's as well. Like, include him into. Yeah. Because. Yeah, he's. Yeah, he's pretty upset, like, more so than I was. Like. And it's because for me, this isn't, like, this is not my first time with her doing something like this. Like, whenever she found I was pregnant with my first one, it was. I was pregnant at her wedding, but I didn't obviously miss her wedding. I made it. But I was pregnant at her bachelorette party, so I couldn't partake in, like, the drinking and the going out and the coffee clubbing. And so, like, in a way, she told me, like, I kind of ruined her bachelorette party because I couldn't party the same way everybody else could.

[Host 2]

That's crazy. Yeah, that's fucking crazy.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

I'm like, dude, like, it's just.

[Host 2]

I kind of hate your friend. I. You know.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. Like, oh. And then like, okay. So also my wedding day, I guess my mother in law had mentioned something like, I was getting off of my birth control not long after that, which is the truth. And I hadn't told my friend that. And she was like, are you trying to get pregnant, like, right away? Like, she's always been very, I guess, scared of my life changing and it not being changed.

[Host 2]

Of course. I mean, she's. She doesn't want kids. Her perfect world is all of her friends also not wanting to have kids. Because she clearly knows the reality of what it's like when your friends have kids as they become less available to you. And she doesn't want her friends to become less available to her. She wants. I guess I'm assuming she's envisioned this life where it's like, she finds her partner and then in an adult life, everyone just parties with their friends and they go on trips together and they go out to dinners and they just, like, have a fun life with each other for the rest of time.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. And that was fun in my early 20s, but, like, I'm about to be 30 and that's. I don't want to do that for the rest of my life.

[Host 2]

And I just think you need to tell her that.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah, like, having. And I wish she could understand.

[Host 2]

Like, you don't need her to understand, but you do need to tell her. And you just stop. You just need to stop validating her feelings that don't matter. I mean, your response empowers her to feel the way she's doing.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Do you feel like I've enabled her?

[Host 2]

Yeah. No, because her feelings aren't valid. They were in that moment. They were not valid. They were irrelevant. They were none of her business.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Crazy, huh? Yeah, I said that's crazy because, like, I just didn't see it that way. Like, it's crazy, like, blunt being told.

[Host 2]

That just, like, not your wedding and it's not your pregnancy. So this is none of your business. So, like, like, good for you. But what. What it is, is insensitive and like as my friend you should know that, that like you said something really insensitive and dismissive as it relates to my dreams and like I'm sorry that mine and Megan's dreams aren't like, are overlapping but like you can be happy for the both of us. I don't need you to be there in the delivering room. You should go, go support our friend. Obviously I'm devastated I can't be there but for you to like say anything to make me feel bad about it is kind of shitty.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Okay, I'll do it. I'll. I'll be honest.

[Host 2]

But you, you clearly have a history with this friend where she feels very comfortable expressing her feelings about how you hurt her. And, and, and it's one sided.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Correct? That's. Yeah. I usually just take the like brunt end of what her feelings are and start speaking up a better friend because like I feel like over the years, over the last 10 years it's been like you did this and I have to apologize for it and then have to make up for it.

[Host 2]

I mean that's where this all comes from. Right. Like this is the relationship you guys have created and you've been a part of it. So you are at fault right where she is feel. She feels comfortable expressing her disappointment in you and you don't feel comfortable expressing her. Her dis. Your disappointment in her. And so she feels very empowered to say these out of pocket things because it's how she feels. And, and you're always responding being like well okay, I'm sorry, your feelings are valid and okay. And she's never been put in her place.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And so one or two things are going to happen. You're gonna, you're gonna maturely tell your tell her how you feel and she's gonna either respond the way she should or you're gonna realize that maybe this friendship is starting to like run its course and like there's not really much of a future here because like your friendship has been very much operating on, on, on what she wants and not what you guys want as friends. And, and as long as your guys priorities were the same, the friendship worked. And now that your priorities are becoming more and more different. If you want to speak up for yourself and you want to be heard, she's not down for that. And yeah, but I think when you do it, you have to try to not be emotional about it. You have to be very matter of fact.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

That's like impossible. But I will absolutely do my. I feel like having my husband there will also he is very matter of fact, very blunt. Very. This is how it is. I feel like that's part of why we work. But, yeah, I feel like, yeah, he'll be a good, steady hand in making sure that I, like, follow through and don't chicken out and just cave to. To keep the peace. Because I feel like that's a lot of it is, like, I'm a people pleaser, so instead of standing up for myself, like, I just do what I can to, like, yeah, this is a.

[Host 2]

Really good chance that you've just never stood up for yourself. And then when you finally do, she'll be like, you're right. I'm sorry. That was kind of, you know, I don't know. Like, maybe.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. You know, and if it doesn't, I feel like that's also the answer. Like, yeah, I just don't. I don't have the time, honestly, especially.

[Host 2]

It would just be a crazy hill for them to die on, to be like, no, we just really think that you shouldn't have done that, and we think you're wrong.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And this is how we feel.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Insane.

[Host 2]

So do you still want to come to the lake even though we feel like you. That would be crazy, but that would.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Be insane, you know, or she could.

[Host 2]

Say, you know what? You're right. I'm sorry. Obviously, I know you want to be there, and that was a little incentive to me and, like, let's just go have fun at the lake. And thanks for. For letting me know that, you know.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. Which is how it should go. But I just, like, have a feeling that's not how it's gonna go. I feel like she's gonna try to steamroll me, like, how it always has been to make sure that, you know, things continue how she would prefer, though. I can't change being pregnant, you know, Like, I can't. I can't fix this situation either.

[Host 2]

And I. I just. I. I make sure your husband's by your side, but whatever you do, you can get emotional, but do not. You're. Don't apologize and don't back down and don't let her see you be sad about like, she is wrong.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. Yeah, I. Yeah, she.

[Host 2]

Yeah, she's either gonna see it or not see it. You are giving her the opportunity to see her faults in this friendship, and that's it. And she's either gonna take that opportunity or not. You are not invest. You have to try to not be invested in the outcome.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Be what it. Like, be willing to accept what happens.

[Host 2]

Because your only priority right now is you and your husband and this baby you're cooking and. And your. And your daughter and like, you know, and like anyone. Who else. Who wants to be a part of that harmony. Great. And if not, no problem.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah. You know, it's not worth it. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

I don't know. No, you're right. You're right. You're right. I'm gonna do it. And I'm gonna make sure my husband's there so that I follow through.

[Host 2]

You just have to know you're not wrong.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Okay? I have to. I have to start believing that because like I said, the way that she talked to me and the way she made me feel, it just. Which I guess I choose my own feelings. She can't make me feel a certain way.

[Host 2]

But that's what I'm saying. Knowing you're not wrong, it's not choosing to feel right. You are. You are right, at least about your get, you know, for yourself. You're right. Yeah. There's no alternative. Right? Like, there's just. No, you are not going to family plan around anyone. Like, around.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Around anything.

[Host 2]

Around anything. No.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

No.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

And this baby's not a mistake.

[Host 2]

Like, and you're. And you're. And you're not gonna let the closest people in your life make you feel bad about that.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

No.

[Host 2]

And it's that. So it's just that. It's that simple.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Okay, Nick, I'll do it.

[Host 2]

All right?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

You're right.

[Host 2]

Okay? Just don't. You. You're right. No, I'm not right. You're right.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Okay? I am right.

[Host 2]

She is wrong. And you're gonna give her the opportunity to see her mistake. And if she doesn't want to, that is her problem. Because you. I mean, not to sound like, you know, I hope anyone listening who doesn't want to have kids. I'm not coming for you. Whatever. Like, choose your life. The reality is if, you know, you're gonna want to have to find other friends who don't want to have kids, because if a bunch of your friends want to have kids and. And you don't. And you want a life that is centered around, you know, traveling. And I. I have. I have dear friends who don't want to have kids, and they have. And they have an amazing life, right? And they, you know, but they don't. They never. They're independent with each other and, like, you know, they. They have a great time with each other. They don't need other people to be a. Like, they have a bunch of. They have tons of friends, but like they still had to make their life together, you know? And your friend sounds like someone who's trying to keep the band together. And that's.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

I was the first out of my friends to get pregnant too, so I feel like I'm the first to really start to break this way. You know, there's only one other of us that is pregnant or has had a kid, so.

[Host 2]

No, you're right.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

I am right.

[Host 2]

You're right.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Well, I appreciate you so much and I absolutely love your show. I listen all the time, so I just really appreciate it.

[Host 2]

Well, I appreciate it. And congratulations to you and your husband. It's awesome.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Thank you.

[Host 2]

And just don't stress about stupid like this. It's all stupid. It is, it's. It's just all stupid. Right? Like, as long as your daughter and your husband are healthy, everything else, and then you guys can like, like pay your bills, it's all stupid. So just don't worry about stupid.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Okay? I won't.

[Host 2]

All right. Okay. All right, take care.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Bye.

[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

How's it going?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Good.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

How are you?

[Host 2]

Good. What's your name?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

My name is Cassie. I'm 32 and I'm calling because my husband is more interested in porn than in me.

[Host 2]

Okay, well, I'm sorry to hear that.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Thanks.

[Host 2]

What? What makes you feel that way?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Different levels of intimacy, probably, which has been kind of recurring over the few years we've been together. And then I've recently kind of found out how intense he's watching porn.

[Host 2]

Like, what. What does that look like?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Like every other day when you say.

[Host 2]

Watching it, like he's like, sitting down, you know, some popcorn out and just enjoying porn. Or is he, like, he's masturbating every other day and when he masturbates, he watches porn to accompany that session?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, I mean, definitely he's sneaking off and masturbating. Watching porn, which usually I don't think would be an issue. I think that that's Normal. But I think that the problem kind of comes in that I have expressed that I'm not satisfied in our sex life. And so I've recently found out that he has been sneaking away, lying about it. You know, we've had open conversations before about kind of frequent see and stuff like that, but he's been hiding it and kind of turning to porn instead of me.

[Host 2]

Okay, what does it mean? So what is he saying?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, just that. I mean, we've talked about this when we first got together years ago. We're both very aware we have different kind of intimacy needs, and we've just kind of chalked it up to him maybe having low testosterone and just kind of being different people. So I've kind of accepted that.

[Host 2]

Well, it's not low testosterone. It's.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, I didn't. Like, I just kind of took him for his word. I trusted him. And it's just been really bothering me lately. So.

[Host 2]

But now. Now that, you know, right. Like, have you sat him down and said, hey, listen, like, I'm not trying to come from a place of judgment, but, like, it's not even just about the porn, but, like, it feels like you are watching porn and. And having. Enjoying time by yourself rather than with me. And that. That makes me feel a certain kind of way. And it feels like you're more in. You know, we're not. That's something. Not something we are enjoying together. And it seems like it is taking over our sex life. Like, you know. Yeah. And that is something I definitely have a problem with. Like.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, I had almost that identical conversation with him probably about two weeks ago. And, I mean, he seemed to have felt bad and he just kind of said, you know, he's tired and sex takes a lot of effort and, you know, it's just an easy out.

[Host 2]

True. Those are all.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Which fair.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

And, like, if we're fighting or something, like, he doesn't want to be intimate. We're like, I mean, that doesn't really affect me. But, like, this kind of also, I mean, kind of another point to it is that when we aren't intimate, we do fight more, which then pushes him away more. And he kind of said that, like, sitting and watching porn to him is like. Like, women are like art, and it's just like admiring them, which obviously doesn't make me feel any better about this situation.

[Host 2]

It's always weird and they try to, like, justify, but, like, listen, like, you watch porn, dude. It's fine. Like, whatever most guys do on some level, but it's Just, like, how. How much is it taking over and affecting other aspects of your life, or how much is it affecting the things that are supposed to be important to you? It's affecting his marriage. Like, he obviously recognizes that, and he's not wrong. Like, yeah, sex is, like. I think women agree, too. You know, it's easier to masturbate than to, you know, go through the whole motions of facts, you know, and the intimacy of it. But that matters in relationship. And, like, life is hard and, like, you get tired, but you. You take the time to invest in the things that matter to you. And so if. If this marriage matters to him, he can't just keep coming up with excuses as to why he doesn't want to invest in his sex life was with his wife. And if he's able to balance both, then great, but he's not able to balance them. And that's why you're having a problem.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, exactly.

[Host 2]

So was that the first time you said that to him two weeks ago?

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

No.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, we've kind of on and off discussed it. Not frequently. I mean, we've been together for four years. We've maybe had this conversation once every six to 12 months.

[Host 2]

And is it always the same where you basically say, I'm frustrated. Here's why. He gives you a list of some excuses, tries to justify a little bit, and you're like, okay, I guess, essentially, yeah.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, sometimes after these conversations, it gets better for a while, but it kind of just keeps going back to the same thing.

[Host 2]

All right, well, have you brought that up to them? Yes, that, hey, this is a theme.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, I mean, I've brought it up. I've gotten so frustrated that I kind of say it feels like it's just an incompatibility thing at this point, because how. I just don't get how we can be so far apart on kind of what we want. And to me, like, that's a part of a healthy marriage. And, you know, the closeness with each other and, you know, it trickles into other aspects of your relationship.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

And.

[Host 2]

Do you guys have kids together?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

No.

[Host 2]

Do you want kids?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, we're struggling through infertility right now.

[Host 2]

I'm sorry.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Thanks.

[Host 2]

That can't help.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Feeling disconnected from your husband doesn't help, you know, with that type of stuff.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I mean, at a minimum, you need to feel like your husband cares about this disconnection that you're feeling as much as you do, Right? At a minimum, like, yeah, he can have his reasons. He can have his. His. His struggles. But he needs to care. You know, he needs to care, and he needs to be a part of finding solutions to this problem that the two of you are having. Right. Right now, he is treating it like a you problem, and he's not seeing it as a we problem.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And he's doesn't seem to be interested in. In being a part of a solution. He's. I guess his solution is getting you to not complain about it.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of how it feels. I think that he, like, I'm very much more like, the physical intimacy, obviously, and he's more, like, verbal.

[Host 2]

So often you have in sex.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, I'd say in, like, on average, maybe once a week. Maybe once every other week.

[Host 2]

Okay. Not terrible.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

No. I mean, like, it's probably gone, like, two or three weeks, but, like, we've also only been married for two years. Like, I'm 32. Like, I.

[Host 2]

You also don't have kids too? Like.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, like, it's just. I don't see. I just don't understand why. Like, it just seems ridiculous to me. And he expressed, like, verbally that he cares and says, you know, all the right things. It feels like.

[Host 2]

Have you guys done couples therapy?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, we tried. We went to a few sessions, and then he got upset and said he's not going back.

[Host 2]

About to get upset about.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Because that session was more focused on me and my feelings, and then the next one was supposed to be about him, and he just felt like it wasn't equal and that couples therapy always takes the women's side.

[Host 2]

I mean, he's watching porn in lieu of having sex with his wife. I don't. Like. Yeah, you obviously came in here, like, questioning, like, hey, do I stay in this thing? And, you know, am I in the right? Like, you're questioning your marriage at this point, correct?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, I am. I mean, this just affects so much more. Like, I. The longer that we go without being intimate, the, like. I mean, I don't want to say we talk nasty to each other, but it definitely comes into, like, more disrespectful talk. And then it just kind of spirals from there, and then there's all these layers of, like, horrible things that I don't think are okay to say to someone. And for me, it just comes back.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

To, well, if, like, what.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, he's, like, said to me, like, thank God we don't have kids together, and, you know, calling me like a bitch all the time and marrying me was a mistake.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

You know, just, like, really are.

[Host 2]

Not that. Not that that's ever okay. But, like, what are you saying things to him? Like, what's. Like, what is it? Are these things just like coming out of nowhere?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah. I mean, really coming out of nowhere. We. We will get into a fight about something. Because, I mean, I, without being intimate, do get, like, a bit more attitude, which I acknowledge all the time. And so something small will happen. He's not done the dishes, but he said he was gonna do the dishes, you know, whatever. And if I bring a point about, well, why did you say you were gonna do something you didn't do? Then he gets defensive. It spirals into, like, all these other problems that he has with me and all these other points. And then I'm just like, well, it's about one problem. Like, let's keep it about the one problem. It doesn't need to be like, now I'm a mistake, you know?

[Host 2]

Yeah. I mean, that's crazy things to say to him. I will say, like, it's a fine line between getting mad at your partner for. For not putting out. It's not just about the sex. Obviously, you know, it's the bigger picture of the porn. I just think, you know, if you are getting testies simply because he doesn't want to, like, yeah, you, you getting mad at him as a result of him not wanting to put out is maybe something you definitely want to work on.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, I mean, I don't really. I mean, it's not like in the moment, I'm like, because we didn't have sex last night, I'm gonna be angry with you today. Like, I just feel like, over. Naturally over.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Like, you're feel. You're feeling rejected, right? You feel.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You feel. I get it. I just wanna point that out.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

At the end of the day, like, you know, one, you'd just be like, hey, I, I don't. I can't have you talk to me that way. If this is how you really feel about me, then, like, maybe we need to have more serious conversations. But if you do want to be in this marriage and we are going to keep trying, like, can you at least acknowledge that we're not in a good place either? Like, if you don't want to be married to me, like, let's just call it like, and if you do want to be married to me and you're saying, you know, then like, a, you got to stop saying those things and two, like, how are we going to fix this? Because one thing we can agree on is we're both not happy with this current situation. Like, let's just agree on that. I don't know how to do this by myself. I understand you didn't like couples therapy, but, like, either we're gonna fix it or we're not gonna fix it. And we haven't been able to fix it on our own, and it's not gonna just magically change, you know?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

But what do you do when, like, you have those conversations? Cause we have had those conversations. And I, like, I'm going to therapy. I feel like I'm putting in a lot of work. I seen a lot of progress in myself over the last few months. And I say to him, from your part, I can handle everything else. I cannot handle, like, the nastiness. I. Something has got to change. How do we work on this?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

And if he.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Every time it's the same thing. I'm going to work on it. I'll stop saying it. Like, at what point do you say enough is enough?

[Host 2]

You're. You're like, you're dealing with, like. I guess what I'm saying is, like, all men are very like, most men are logically thinking. They like to, like, reverse engineer their thought process. So, like, put them in a quarter. Right. And my point is, it's like here you're saying, oh, well, I'm going to therapy. I'm doing some work, yada I can, you know, but like you, I could put up a lot of things, but I can't put up with your nastiness. And so that gives an opportunity to say, well, then I won't be nasty, you know, and then nothing changes. Right. Like, like you just said. But, like, that is not gonna get him to do what you want, which is to like, one. Ultimately, it probably, I guess, is to jump into therapy or, you know, but you just say, listen, can we agree that, like, our. We're struggling, like, we're. We're disconnected and we're. Neither of us are happy with this current situation. We. We both have our reasons. And you need. You need to find common ground with your husband right now. What is the one thing you can agree on? And even if that thing you can agree on is the fact that both of you are just kind of miserable in this marriage.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But you don't want to get divorced. Hopefully that's his answer.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, I think we'd both agree with that.

[Host 2]

All right, so there. Common ground. Do. All right, so if we. If we don't ultimately want to get divorced, but we are kind of miserable, then don't you Think, like, do you want to keep living this way? I'm not even. Let's forget about whose fault it is right now. Yeah, but I don't know how to fix this on my own. You got to get him to, like, see your logic. Which is. Or are we just going to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Right.

[Host 2]

Because, like, I don't. Listen, if I make you miserable, like, just, like, let's. Let's just. Let's just spare each other, like, the more hurt and pain and if you don't want to change or if you're not going to change or. I can't do this by myself. We can't do this by myself. So what's going to be different?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And you got to get them to, like, kind of go down that logical path. Yeah.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, that makes sense. And I'm happy to have. I mean, I feel like I've had versions of that conversation before, and, I mean, it always ends up, you know, we're on the same page. We both agree we want to work on things, move forward, but it just ends up in the same.

[Host 2]

Yeah, but, like, it doesn't play. Yeah. Because you don't do anything. You tried couples therapy once and you quit.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You know, and I'm not saying a couple's therapist is the only solution, but, like, you guys need outside help.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Maybe it's a friend. Maybe it's a priest or a pastor. I don't. You know, Or a life coach, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Parent. I don't know. But clearly can't do it by yourself.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

That's okay. Most, a lot of people can't. And this isn't, like, not going to get easier with kids. So, like, before you guys keep trying to have, you know, it's just, like, you guys are both not happy with this current situation.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I think you just kind of really have to start being honest without being mean about how the rel. What the relationship looks like and where you want to go from here and see if he's willing to, like, make some changes. But he has to, you know, he has to care. Yeah.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, I feel like I, at some point could probably get him to agree to try counseling or maybe a different counselor or. I mean, he's religious, so maybe a pastor or something. But, like, at. At what point if someone decides that, like, they can't change or it's not worth it or it's too hard or whatever, like, when is the point that.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

You.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Are should walk away.

[Host 2]

I mean, I think everyone has their own. That's not really for me to tell you. You'll have to decide for yourself. But, yeah, I think when you realize that you've tried, like, when they've made it perfectly clear, they're just. Just unwilling to do anything different.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Right.

[Host 2]

It should. Listen, at a minimum, it should bother your husband. He should. He should be. Even to himself, be able to acknowledge, like, maybe I'm watching a little too much porn. And like, yeah, I guess if. If the roles were reversed. Yeah, I would. I see why this bothers her. I understand that I am tired. That's all true. But, like, I don't expect her to like that. Excuse me. And that would, you know, no one wants to be too tired to be made, like, constantly be like, I'm too tired to care about you.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I did kind of explain it that way to him, like, if roles were reversed and, like, what if I was turning you down? Or you found out, like, you know, that I'm doing that every other day instead of, like, coming to you. And I think that that did kind of click with him at that point. He seemed pretty irritated at the thought of that. So I think to some degree, he understands now after kind of explaining it that way.

[Host 2]

But, yeah, if you were on Instagram just masturbating the hot guys on the Gram and then turning them down for sex.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, it's offensive.

[Host 2]

And if you can't get them to at least say, no, I'm not making my wife feel good. If you can't, you know, then I don't. I don't know where there is to go from there.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Well, I don't think we're there yet, so that's good at least.

[Host 2]

Yeah. It's just he needs to be able to. You know, it's like, you seem reasonable, like, yeah. And your sex life isn't, like, dead, that's for sure. I mean, once a week isn't that bad. But again, you have. You guys have no kids, so, like. And he's. He's. He's climaxing. Climaxing every other day.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right.

[Host 2]

So, yeah, he's having sex 10 times in two weeks. And. And once of those is with you.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, it's definitely not the excuses that he's given me before. Like, that wouldn't make sense for low testosterone. I mean, now that I know this, because I did only recently find out.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it's not low testosterone being tired. It's just, like, being. Yeah. You know, he's comparing to how he was when he was 21, where it was like, you're never too tired to have sex to now where it's just like, I don't know, he's got a job and responsibility and like, you know, having sex with the same person. Like when you meet someone and it's exciting, you're just wondering if you're gonna get laid only to like, oh, I'm gonna get laid. And it's exciting. And then when you're like, in a relationship or married, there's you. You guys have your routines and you come home from work, you say, hi, someone makes dinner, you guys eat dinner, and then you're kind of after, after dinner, like routines or whatever. Then you kind of get in bed and like, no one's. Everyone's waiting for the other person to make a first move. And, you know, it takes some effort and then you're just kind of tired. That's not. Has. I don't think that has much to do with testosterone levels in men. I think this has to do with, like, giving a. It.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I'd be willing to bet his testosterone if he's. How old is he?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

33.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I, I knowing that he's watching porn every other. Every day. I'm not a doctor, but I bet he'd get a pretty good.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, it sounds like he's fine.

[Host 2]

I think you just, you got to keep talking to him. But it's. I think the big thing is not trying to attack one thing about what he's doing and how it's making you feel. I think you got to make it a. More about a we problem. This is a you. The relationship is in peril. The relationship is disconnected. You guys are fighting. Things are being said, feelings are being hurt. You are trying to find solutions to this problem that you two are having. You may not be communicating it as effectively, but, but he doesn't really seem to be. His solution to this problem is that he promises to change if you shut up. And he doesn't change.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And that's just like, what are you supposed to do next?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Right.

[Host 2]

And yeah. I think you just got to frame it that way.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Okay.

[Host 2]

That makes sense. Anyway.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Helpful. Yeah.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, it makes me feel less crazy, for sure. It's hard to kind of like, see it from, you know, going through the same cycles yourself.

[Host 2]

You're definitely not crazy. And sadly, I don't think you're alone.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And I think, I think it's very common for a lot of men to watch porn or people to Watch porn even in marriages. And every relationship has their comfort levels with that. But even for the people who are generally comfortable with their partner's watching porn, they just don't want to feel like they're being replaced by the porn that they're watching. And I totally get the convenience. It's a lot easier for people to masturbate than to, like, be physically intimate with their partners. But that's not an excuse not to be. And when your partner says, hey, I'm feeling a little like unloved, unseen, unheard, like, I just want to, like, your partner has to step up and do something about it and make them feel like they're choosing you over the porn and like, at that, that you shouldn't have to have that much hard of a time explaining to him and the fact that if. If you can't get that hurdle, then there's not. There's not much where to go. So I think you need to feel like he gets it and if he doesn't, you know, I don't know, then maybe there's not much harder.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how I'm definitely going to have another conversation and make sure that I'm coming across very clear because I'm kind of thinking back and I don't know if maybe I just was a bit more shut down than what I thought that I was in the conversation. So, I mean, that's definitely a good starting place and kind of see, I guess how he takes that and reacts moving forward.

[Host 2]

Well, if he were here, what would he be saying? What do you think he'd be saying?

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

That it's easy. He would say, it's not like, that's easy. What you want me to have, like, you want me to have sex, we'll have sex. That's easy. Well, like, that's the type of. That he would say.

[Host 2]

Well, I would say, like, clearly not. And let's be real, I would say to him, like, you know, man, I'm. Yeah, I'm often too tired to have sex, you know. What would you say to that? I mean, like, you know.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, I don't.

[Host 2]

He would feel ganged up on. Probably. Yeah, probably at some point he needs a man up. I don't know. He needs to step up and just face, you know.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Then you say he's super religious.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, he is pretty religious. No, I'm not at all.

[Host 2]

Well, maybe you should just shame him. Shame him?

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I mean, it's crossed my mind when I've kind of talked to other people.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

These, you know.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Gets kind of brought into it, but.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I don't know if Jesus would appreciate him watching porn.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

I doubt it.

[Host 2]

His wife. Well, I'm sorry you're going through this. I don't know how helpful I was, but I really just think you need to try to make sure he's willing to fight with you. Not in that the fight is not just you by yourself.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Okay. All right.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Okay.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Host 2]

All right, well, take care.

[Caller 3 (Married Woman with Porn Issue)]

Okay, thanks.

[Caller 1 (Pregnant Friend)]

You too.

[Caller 2 (Orthodox Jewish Woman)]

Bye.

[Host 2]

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