E995 - RHOC w/ Katie Ginella, Love Con Revenge w/ Cecille, DWTS & Unknown Number: The High School Catfish

Summary

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The Viall Files – E995: RHOC w/ Katie Ginella, Love Con Revenge w/ Cecille, DWTS & Unknown Number: The High School Catfish

Date: September 4, 2025
Main Guests: Katie Ginella (RHOC), Cecilia Philhoy (Love Con Revenge/Tinder Swindler)

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Episode Overview

In this "Reality Recap" edition of The Viall Files, Nick Viall, Natalie Joy, and the regular crew dive into a wide-ranging discussion on reality TV drama, relationship scams, and true crime. The episode features in-depth interviews with Katie Ginella from Real Housewives of Orange County (RHOC), Cecilia Philhoy, victim advocate and star of Love Con Revenge, as well as hot takes on the latest reality TV news, including thoughts on Dancing with the Stars and the shocking Netflix doc Unknown Number: The High School Catfish.

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Table of Contents

1. Household Banter & Reality TV News
2. Bachelor in Paradise: Kat & Dale Drama
3. Dancing with the Stars Cast Breakdown
4. Pop Culture Hot Takes: Sydney Sweeney & Cardi B
5. Netflix Doc Review: Unknown Number - The High School Catfish
6. Feature Interview – Cecilia Philhoy: Love Con Revenge & Romance Scams
7. Feature Interview – Katie Ginella: RHOC, Blogger Drama, Season Fallout
8. Notable Quotes

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1. Household Banter & Reality TV News

[00:00 – 06:00]

• Opens with playful roast between Nick, Natalie & crew about age, birthdays, and relationship dynamics (“It’s always about my looks, never about what’s inside!” – Natalie, [01:08]).
• Katie shares her birthday recap: trips, Disney day, Michelin-star dinner ([02:14]).
• Nick and Natalie reflect on birthday celebrations, gifts, and married life.
• Nick introduces special guests: Katie Ginella (RHOC) & Cecilia Philhoy (Love Con Revenge; Tinder Swindler).
• Quick tease: coming up, recaps of recent episodes, insight on reality TV power couples, and season milestones.

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2. Bachelor in Paradise: Kat & Dale Drama

[07:43 – 10:46]

• Discussion of Kat and Dale’s relationship status post-Bachelor in Paradise.
  • Nick believes Kat’s story over the bachelor “tropes” and accusers.
  • Panel challenges the “crime” of talking/dating before the show: “No one in dating culture today is defining relationships. …Maybe Kat was dating someone and talking to someone…and I just don’t think that’s much of a crime.” ([09:21], Nick)
• Group criticizes Bachelor castmates’ attempts to “expose” Kat; sees hypocrisy in their tactics ([10:46], Katie).

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3. Dancing with the Stars Cast Breakdown

[11:23 – 16:15]

• Reviews new DWTS cast: Dylan Efron, Alex Earl, Hilaria Baldwin, Robert Irwin, Jordan Chiles, and more.
• Fun banter on predictions and casting oddities (“Yoga instructor. Alec Baldwin’s wife.” – Natalie, [12:11]).
• Jokes about Hilaria Baldwin’s infamous accent and Alec supporting her.
• Side chat: Reunion of Fifth Harmony minus Camila, solo successes in girl groups.

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4. Pop Culture Hot Takes: Sydney Sweeney & Cardi B

[16:03 – 21:28]

• Dissects Sydney Sweeney’s dating life and public persona: “She don’t give a fuck. She’s healing America by letting people know… if you don’t like what I’m doing, move the fuck on.” ([17:51], Nick)
• Commentary on online outrage, fan armies (Barbs, Beehive, Swifties) and internet “rage bait” culture.
• Cardi B’s civil trial win: “She did not hit that bitch.” ([18:50], Natalie)
• Reflections on fan group rivalries, why the Beyhive and Swifties can’t unite.

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5. Netflix Doc Review: Unknown Number - The High School Catfish

[27:01 – 41:13]

Synopsis:
A harrowing doc about an anonymous cyberbullying campaign targeting a 14-year-old girl (“Lauren”) and her boyfriend. Over two years, thousands of texts threaten, harass, and abuse teens and parents. Ultimately, the FBI discovers the perpetrator is the girl’s own mother, using tech expertise to evade detection.

Key Discussion Points:

• Group expresses outrage and deep discomfort at the mother’s abuse, and Netflix director’s “empathizing” with the perpetrator.
• Criticisms on the documentary’s narrative: not enough mental health/psychological analysis, too much focus on the mom as a tragic figure.
• Parenting fears in the social media era: “It is scary when you watch these docs to know there are sick people out there who are parents…” ([39:56], Nick)
• Personal stories from the crew on real-life catfishing and digital bullying in adolescence.

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6. Feature Interview: Cecilia Philhoy (Love Con Revenge & Tinder Swindler)

[44:36 – 73:44]

Background

Cecilia, known from the Netflix doc Tinder Swindler, is now a leading advocate supporting romance scam victims and co-hosts the new Netflix docuseries Love Con Revenge, which exposes elaborate romantic frauds.

Core Discussion:

• Impact of Public Victimhood ([45:37]):

  • Cecilia describes “mind-blowing” experience becoming the face of true crime: “Suddenly ended up in one yourself.”

• Why Victims Fall for Scams ([47:33]):

  • “Fraud is one of the very few crimes where we really focus on the actions of the victims rather than the criminals… They take you through a journey I call ‘trust engineering.’”
  • Tactics: Love bombing, future faking, isolation, sunk cost fallacy.

• Emotional Fallout and Recovery ([51:51]):

  • “The hardest thing is realizing the one you loved never loved you.”

• Practical Advice: Red Flags & Warning Signs ([56:30]):

  • Fast-moving relationships.
  • Over-eager similarity.
  • Early mentions of money/investment.

• Advice for Supporting Friends ([60:11]):

  • “Empathy is the word here… No one wants to be told they’re stupid.”
  • Use hard evidence if possible; remain supportive, not confrontational.

• Prevalence of Romance Fraud ([54:38]):

  • “Cybercrime as a whole is the third largest economy in the world… Romance fraud is not gendered, 50/50 split.”

• Legislative Roadblocks ([67:07]):

  • Laws exist but are hard to apply—empathy and victim support are still lacking.

• Simon “Tinder Swindler” Leviev ([69:03]):

  • Simon continues to scam, now selling meme coins and doing podcasts.
  • “He’s a proven liar. Why are we trusting him?” ([69:14], Cecilia)

• Power of Telling Victims’ Stories ([72:23])

  • “There’s power and justice in getting the faces of these individuals out there because it will stop them.”

Resources Mentioned

• Cecilia’s nonprofit: loveset.org
• Book: Swindled Never After

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7. Feature Interview: Katie Ginella (RHOC)

[78:03 – 111:55]

Getting on RHOC & Season 2 Backlash

• Joining the Cast:

  • Katie recounts her first connections (meeting Kiki Monique, initial positive impressions, off-the-record lunch gone wrong).
  • “Do you regret having that lunch with Kiki?” – “I do.” ([81:02], Katie)

• “Blogger” and “Superfan” Allegations:

  • Explains how being adjacent to Bravo media/podcasters/content creators has been weaponized against her.
  • Points out double-standard: “Half my cast are quote-unquote bloggers... It’s not weird for us to have these relationships.” ([89:07], Katie)

• Season 2 Drama:

  • Discusses fallout with Jen, pain over lack of support from closest friend ([92:21]).
  • Details “hold the line” incident: feeling pressured to back up co-stars’ lies.
  • Recounts the setup feeling at the polygraph party and the palpable targeting by Gina, Emily, and others.

• Response to Accusations of Lying:

  • Admits to lying to protect Gretchen at her prompting (“I lied when I said, Gretchen, 'You’ve never said that before.' That was a lie.” – [106:35], Katie).
  • Denies major claims from cast that she leaked gossip or orchestrated drama.
  • Shares her authentic experience as RHOC’s first Korean adoptee and frustrations with co-stars policing her identity ([99:39]).

• On the “Rookie Hazing” Phenomenon:

  • “I don’t think that’s a Bravo issue—I think that’s a women issue.” ([105:26], Katie)

• News and The Future:

  • Addresses production’s decision to “protect” her by excluding her from the cast trip; hints at cast banding together to oust her.
  • “I have not considered [leaving]. I think I deserve a fair chance.” ([104:41])
  • Reunion: nervous but determined, hoping for genuine apologies.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

Cecilia Philhoy:

• “Fraud is one of the very few crimes where we really focus on the actions of the victims than the criminals.” ([47:33])
• “Love bombing, future faking, sunk cost fallacy: they’re all tactics.” ([47:33])
• “Cybercrime as a whole is the third largest economy in the world.” ([54:38])
• “Empathy is the word here. …No one wants to be told they’re stupid.” ([60:11])

Katie Ginella:

• “I think that when we sat down and she said ‘everything is off the record’—she didn’t hold true to that.” ([81:02])
• “No one wants to be told how Asian I need to be. That’s for me only.” ([99:39])
• “I have not considered [leaving]. …I think I deserve a fair chance.” ([104:41])
• “I do feel used. But I’ve also made some rookie mistakes.” ([91:49])
• “I wish I could have gone on that trip, but maybe it was best I didn’t.” ([109:58])

Nick Viall:

• “I’ll be very upset if you’re not back next season.” ([111:34])
• On reality TV casting: “To find someone who’s not a fan [already] is almost… weirder to begin with.” ([84:22])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Katie Ginella interview starts: [78:03]
• Cecilia Philhoy interview starts: [44:36]
• Unknown Number doc review: [27:01]–[41:13]
• DWTS/bachelor/pop headlines: [11:23]–[21:28]
• Opening banter/setups: [00:00]–[06:00]

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Tone & Style

The tone throughout is witty, self-aware, and authentic—balancing playful “household” banter with earnest, sometimes emotional conversations regarding reality TV’s toxic culture and the dark reality of relationship scams. Both interviews bring nuance and empathy, with Nick and co-hosts offering support and validation for their guests’ experiences.

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For Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for:

• True crime and scam doc obsessives
• RHOC fans seeking behind-the-scenes context
• Viewers interested in the dangers of romance fraud and how to support loved ones
• Reality TV devotees who crave honest, unscripted reflections on the costs of fame and fandom

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Resources:

• LoveSet.org – Fraud victim support (Cecilia Philhoy)
• Swindled Never After – Book by Cecilia Philhoy & Pernilla (Tinder Swindler)

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Nick]

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[Natalie]

It's always about my looks. It's never about what's inside. Okay, she's always sexy, gorgeous, beautiful, hot. But, like, where's the like. Never pure of heart, Never kind.

[Charlie]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Never brave.

[Katie]

Never loving.

[Natalie]

It's never loving.

[Nick]

She's all those things. She's also 27.

[Natalie]

She's 27. Nicola's like, honestly, this is weird for me, you know, like, you're. You're not really, like, young.

[Emily]

Wow.

[Natalie]

I said, let us not forget that you're damn near 50. So I am definitely still young.

[Nick]

I did not say that. I was just like, wow, you're like, full adult now.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

I'm in my late 20s.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Charlie]

Leonardo DiCaprio.

[Natalie]

I know, right? He was like, oh, 27. Not what I signed up for.

[Katie]

Listen, we'll renegotiate at 28.

[Nick]

Not what I said. What are you.

[Charlie]

What's it? Matthew McConaughey in days and confused.

[Katie]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

These girls stayed the same age. Also, Sierra had a birthday.

[Katie]

I did. I don't need to share how old I am.

[Natalie]

Okay?

[Katie]

But it was great and it lasted forever. I went to Ojai Valley Inn and then did a day at Disney with my fiance and then. Cute. Did dinner with some of my girlfriends at the Bel Air Hotel. It was so nice.

[Natalie]

Wait, what did Connor get you for your birthday? Was it like the trip.

[Katie]

The trip. Disneyland, all that? Yeah, yeah. And I accepted arms. Paid for a Michelin star dinner. Oh, my God. And we were stuffed. Oh, my God.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

It was.

[Nick]

So how was your birthday?

[Natalie]

My birthday was lovely.

[Nick]

Ooh, my birthday Was lovely.

[Natalie]

It was sexy, hot, delicious, and like, so sexy. Like, legs open, sexy and beautiful. No, it. It was. I mean, Nick did wake me up at the ass crack of dawn with my gifts, which, like, is so nice that he had gifts. I was like, what time is it? He was like, oh, it's 6:10. And I was like, oh, river was.

[Nick]

River. River got her gifts, and I wanted river to bring her the gift you didn't want.

[Katie]

River was so excited. She was like, wake up, mommy. And you're like, duh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Natalie]

She got her two gifts, Rivy got me a gift, and Nick got me a gift. It was so sweet. And then Nick made pancakes, which I love, even though I am. Was supposed to be gluten free. But Nick was like, I feel like your birthday is a cheat day for the gluten. He's like, I think it's too hard for me to figure out what you can eat that doesn't have.

[Nick]

Also, I don't need her, like, sadly eating a salad on her birthday.

[Katie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Natalie]

And then. Oh, he. He invited, like, flowers in. Oh, yes. He had flowers sent in, which were huge and gorge. And then he invited a couple of my friends over, and we, like, had. He ordered in tai Fung, and we had that for lunch and then drank some wine and just kind of hung out. And then he cooked a delicious steak meal. It was very lovely.

[Katie]

Beautiful job.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

He did great.

[Natalie]

And then he looked at me and he said, I want nothing for my birthday.

[Katie]

Love that for you.

[Natalie]

You seem serious, so. Okay, I am serious. And I'm like. And honestly, I don't have anything in mind.

[Nick]

So her birthday. Who, when she didn't want anything, wasn't cheap, and we need to save some money, and so I got to take one for the trip.

[Natalie]

I told you I didn't want anything.

[Nick]

Yeah, I know you did. You not want anything ain't cheap.

[Katie]

The fact that you got her something exact. I told you about you, you're crazy.

[Nick]

Well, we have a great episode lined up for you today. First and foremost, we never say this like, subscribe. Tell your friends. You know, hit that. Hit that follow button. Is there a follow button, subscribe button. I don't know. Wherever you're listening to us, however you're enjoying this show, be sure to tell your friends on Spotify. Apparently you can DM someone now. Yep.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Send a message.

[Nick]

Maybe you're tuning in for our special guest, Katie. Janela is with us. I also, I think she's bringing her husband, who I don't think He. She's planning on having him appear, but I'm a big fan of Matt. I'm not team anyone, as I told Katie, but I feed most people in this. Who's team Katie?

[Emily]

Me.

[Charlie]

Yeah, I am.

[Emily]

Her husband's hot, too.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

He is cute.

[Nick]

I'm team.

[Charlie]

I ride for her, Charlie.

[Nick]

I'm team Matt for sure. Because I just love a supportive husband.

[Katie]

Same, same.

[Nick]

You know, even. Even if Katie is wrong, and I'm not saying she is.

[Katie]

And a respectful. It's like the way he said he's checked Tamara out the door was just like, girl, you. You talk shit about my wife. Like, let's not do this. And I was like, he's not fighting like a housewife.

[Natalie]

He's fighting with a husband. And we love it.

[Katie]

Here's a fact.

[Charlie]

But it's also like, God forbid a housewife commits a minor infraction. God, we're acting like she did something terrible.

[Nick]

I don't need my wife to be right. Right. With her friends.

[Charlie]

Exactly. You know, you care about her.

[Nick]

I care about her.

[Charlie]

And I care about you.

[Nick]

Katie and her coworkers. Let's be real. They're coworkers. And they're picking on Katie 100%. Anyways, Katie's with us. We'll get all of your burning questions answered with Katie. Also, we have Cecilia Philhoy. Did I say that right? Hard to say. I just learned how to say 1000th.

[Natalie]

But do you.

[Nick]

1000.

[Natalie]

Okay, there you go.

[Charlie]

Hey, that coaching's working.

[Nick]

It is.

[Natalie]

We are proud. Now we have to have our 1000th episode right now.

[Nick]

Because it's like, well, I haven't really. It doesn't flow yet. I have to still. A thousandth. Think about it. Right? So I think we'll celebrate our thousandth and into our thousandth episode. Let's see.

[Natalie]

It's getting worse as you go on.

[Charlie]

To celebrate our thousandth episode, Nick is going to say thousandth. 1,000 times 1,000.

[Natalie]

That's the entire hour and a half episode.

[Nick]

Thank you, Zebra Xylophone, Mozart. These are my words. I have to practice.

[Katie]

Your practice.

[Charlie]

You did all of them so well.

[Nick]

We have Cecilia from Love Con Revenge, a new show coming out on Netflix.

[Charlie]

That'S all about love con and revenge.

[Nick]

Well, like, relationship scammers. Like, basically, Dirty John's romantic fraud. Romantic fraud, yeah. Excited to talk with her.

[Natalie]

Which it is crazy to think that anyone would, like, give their money away. You know, like, if a man asked me for money and was like, hey, I just need, like, a quick, like, 5,000 to help with my mortgage, I would be like, good luck.

[Nick]

No, but these people are fascinating. These people stories.

[Natalie]

These men are so. They're. They're so like, I just. My dog died, and my mom and.

[Nick]

I love one's like a war veteran who, like, faked a hero story, you know, even, like, not even that he was a hero. That someone was like, it's a whole thing.

[Natalie]

It's crazy.

[Katie]

The wellness company one, I was like, that kind of makes sense. Or even the fact that they will, like, pay them back in the beginning, smaller amounts to gain the trust. It's like.

[Nick]

It's a real.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

It's a real.

[Natalie]

Yeah, it's a.

[Katie]

It's a real business.

[Nick]

We also had Cat and Dale on yesterday's episode of Going deeper as they wrapped up Bachelor in Paradise. They're still together.

[Natalie]

Yeah, they are still together. And honestly, they look like they're doing good.

[Charlie]

They're hot together.

[Natalie]

They're hot together. Dale seems like, very understanding of Kat's emotional side, which I don't think most men are, and I love that for her.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Dale does speak like a politician.

[Nick]

He does. Sometimes I ask questions, and I was like. I don't mean. Not even entirely sure what you're saying.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

But I was like, okay, it's long.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

It's well thought out.

[Natalie]

It's long.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

It said a lot of sentiments.

[Natalie]

Yep. It is.

[Charlie]

It's not the worst thing in the world to have a man who's PR trained, you know, the other. But the flip side of that, you're right.

[Natalie]

Is worse, for sure.

[Nick]

I kind of. And also, like, I. I'll be. I believe Kat's version of events when it comes to some of the. Like, we had Alicia on who told her story. We didn't have Prisa on. Prisa sent me a message basically saying, cancel bully.

[Katie Janela]

Right.

[Katie]

I thought, based off of Alicia being here, that Kat was dating someone else. I might have read into that incorrectly.

[Natalie]

Well, yeah. I mean, Alicia said point blank, and I mean, they said it on the finale that Kat went into Bachelor in paradise with a boyfriend. This boyfriend was like, friends with Sean.

[Katie]

Some text messages or something.

[Natalie]

But I really iPad in. We asked Kat about all of it. She answered all of it.

[Nick]

So I believe her version. And I do, because I do. I do think sometimes, to Cat's point, people don't stop their lives to go on the show.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Right.

[Nick]

This idea that you're supposed to, like, cleanse both figuratively and emotionally and mentally, your. Your life and your body. If you go on a bachelor world for love. That you're supposed to, like, abstain from talking to anyone, communicating with anyone. Many of these people, like Cat and Dale, decided to go days before they actually went. Not sure if they're going to go. No one in dating culture today is defining relationships. No one.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, no one has a boyfriend or a girlfriend. They're all just dating. So, like, maybe Kat was dating someone and talking to someone, and maybe she went on a show not thinking she would meet someone. I just don't think that's much of a crime that many people who go on this show try to weaponize and use against their peers. I just don't think it's that much of a crime. And if Kat really met someone like Dale and was like, I really like this guy. I just. I just don't think it's that big of a deal. And I also don't think going to the bars is spending the holidays with someone. And so if she's telling the truth, then Sean and Alicia are giving, you know, the typical, like, we didn't go as far as you energy, and we're going to use your typical bachelor tropes and accusations to try to, like, take you down because, like, we didn't have the same experience that you had.

[Katie]

That moment was embarrassing, in my opinion, Secondhand, when they were, like, exposing Kat and it was just like, we're gonna call. We're calling a meeting together. And I was like, oh, this is. This is not landing the way that you think it is. And it's kind of like the age old bachelor thing where it was like the person that tries to get somebody else kicked off by being like, no, they're awful, and they're this. And it's like, you're gone.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Like, no, it did not work out the way that they intended it to.

[Nick]

Yeah. So, like, if they really are together and they seem to be, um, I'm not sure what. What. What's the crime?

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, they went on a show.

[Katie]

They met, they fell for each other. No crime.

[Nick]

It's not that hard to believe that Kat didn't have a boyfriend. She was, like, talking to a guy.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Anyways, Dancing with the Stars has revealed its new cast, and it seems like it's pretty good headlining that cast. You know, you're not excited. Dylan Efron.

[Natalie]

Well loved, obviously, like, love Dylan Efron.

[Nick]

Alex Earl, you have Jen and Whitney from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

[Katie]

I also love the. The combination of Hilaria Baldwin. Like, the drama.

[Natalie]

I'm sorry, did y' all see her tagline?

[Nick]

No, she's dancing with Gleb.

[Katie]

She's dancing with Gleb.

[Charlie]

We gotta get Gleb on the concept of Alec bald when watching his wife on Dancing with the Stars with Gleb.

[Katie]

Gleb was also partners with Lisa Vanderpump. And there was like a bunch of scandal about them being a partnership because they kind of always like lean into things.

[Nick]

We gotta get Hilaria on, please.

[Natalie]

Have you guys seen the Baldwins zoom into her tagline? Can you zoom on that?

[Nick]

They have taglines?

[Natalie]

Well, it's like their jobs, you know, like, they're like, what is hers? Yoga instructor. Alec Baldwin's wife.

[Charlie]

Have you guys seen the Baldwins? Have you ever watched it?

[Nick]

No.

[Charlie]

It's one of the most brain melting things in the world because it's like, obviously Alec Baldwin had that whole thing with that movie where he did that thing and someone. Yeah. Where he killed someone and accidentally. Accidentally. And everyone was like, this guy sucks. And then you watch the Baldwins and you're like, you know what? Put him back on tv. Give him a role. He needs to get out of his house.

[Nick]

Listen, I don't know what happened that's in that movie. And accidents can be terrible. And I, I don't, I don't know what's going on there. And I, who have hilarious involved.

[Charlie]

Very sad.

[Nick]

Very sad. He seems to be a supportive husband who loves his wife.

[Charlie]

He loves his wife. And I don't think that's her accents.

[Nick]

And I think that's an admirable trait.

[Natalie]

You know, even when she's like yelling at him on a red carpet in front of an interview or when he's.

[Charlie]

Just like sadly walking next to her on a beach on the Baldwin.

[Nick]

Maybe it's just a whole bit. It could be.

[Charlie]

He has like 18 kids.

[Nick]

Yoga instructor, I guess.

[Natalie]

So we got Dylan Efron, Robert Irwin, Whitney Levitt, Jen Affleck, Alex Earl, Danielle Fischl, Topanga. Topanga. Jordan Childs.

[Nick]

I really think Jordan's gonna go far.

[Katie]

Jordan Dylan. Oh, I think Jordan will too.

[Charlie]

She's a. Jordan Childs is like an incredible gymnast.

[Nick]

But that's again, they love a non dancer who might. Joey, right? Danced very well. Danced excellently. But like a lot of people didn't expect. Joey, former Bachelor for have his hips be as loose as they were. Jordan Chiles. Like, okay, gymnasts. It's like, okay, like Alex Earl. We're expecting her to crush. We're expecting her to know how to dance.

[Natalie]

Are we? Elaine Hendricks is diva.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Diva.

[Natalie]

Meredith.

[Emily]

We Have Scott from Pentatonix.

[Natalie]

I don't know who that is.

[Nick]

I do. Amazing voice. Incredible voice. Yeah.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

He'S an amazing voice.

[Nick]

What he's doing, they have like. It's one on. On. On YouTube. It's like hallelujah. Him and his.

[Natalie]

The other Natalie, you know pentatonic, I do not know.

[Emily]

Circa 2014 to now. They're massive.

[Charlie]

I mean, you grew up. You grew up in the south around Christmas time. You heard pentatonic.

[Natalie]

No, no, no, no, no. I heard. No, no, no, no, no, no, I didn't. I. I'm going to tell you who I heard.

[Katie]

Who.

[Natalie]

If I could think of their name.

[Charlie]

Acapella. The Little drummer Boy.

[Natalie]

No, it was all the sisters.

[Emily]

Oh, Cimorelli.

[Natalie]

Cimorelli.

[Nick]

I know them too.

[Natalie]

That's. Yeah. I don't know these people.

[Katie]

I am so sorry for this man.

[Natalie]

I am so sorry for this man. But I do not know this man.

[Nick]

Anyway, they're really great.

[Charlie]

Lauren Drougi from fifth Harmony, which they.

[Katie]

Just reunited without Camila Cabello.

[Charlie]

I know she's in Miami, but she.

[Katie]

She commented some hearts. So no heart feelings.

[Natalie]

Yeah, yeah, she did comment heart.

[Charlie]

Justin has really been riding, so it's.

[Nick]

Gonna be fourth harmony.

[Katie]

It might be come. It might be come.

[Natalie]

Like Camila just couldn't make the flight for like the one performance.

[Emily]

Camila, it's too big.

[Nick]

Normani was on my season of Dancing with the Stars.

[Emily]

I love Nor.

[Nick]

I was talking then I was like, why aren't you guys fourth Harmony? When I was. I was trying to get in her head.

[Natalie]

But she's lovely person. She's become a solo artist.

[Emily]

Camila and Normani are the ones that blew up the most out of all of them, I believe.

[Katie]

Yeah, I had a solo album too. I liked one of her songs. That's why I'm like, maybe it's just niche.

[Charlie]

Is she the bisexual one?

[Nick]

Why is it always about their sexuality?

[Charlie]

I just personally growing up, remember which one was bisexual.

[Nick]

I don't care who you love, period.

[Natalie]

Do you think Sydney Sweeney cares about Scooter Ron?

[Nick]

You know what? I'm. I respect her game. She don't give a Sydney Sweeney.

[Natalie]

Her dating the most hated man in America alongside, I don't know, Kanye west is like crazy.

[Charlie]

She's committing to the bit she don't give a fuck.

[Nick]

She's like, I'm gonna do me. I'm gonna do what I want. I'm gonna make my money. I'm gonna go to billionaires weddings. I'm gonna date, you know, unpopular men. In pop culture, she doesn't give a Them allegedly.

[Charlie]

Meeting at the Bezos wedding, too, is, like, the funniest part.

[Katie Janela]

It checks out.

[Nick]

It does.

[Charlie]

It just like, yeah, that makes sense.

[Nick]

I, I in a world where we need to have the. The guts to just be us and not worry about what everyone on the Internet is saying because no one can mind their own business. Like, Natalie was pointing out the other day, like, everyone in this thinks everything is about them.

[Natalie]

It was. I don't know if y' all have seen this, but it was this woman, and I cannot remember her name, but she posted a video. I guess she's married to some, like, Major League baseball player. She posted a video saying that, like, she's pregnant. She's going into the hospital, do, like, the hospital tour. And she, like, didn't have her husband with her. And she was like, oh, my God, guys. I was, like, so embarrassed because, like, everyone was probably looking at me like, oh, this is just some, like, young girl who got knocked up. Like, she's probably some single mom. And I was, like, so embarrassed. Everyone in the comments, like, I'm a single mom, and I'm not embarrassed. It's like, everyone just takes everything so personally. It's like, why do you let that offend you? Like, I was raised by a single mom, and, like, I read it, I heard it, and I was like, okay. Oh, okay, cool. She felt embarrassed. Like, who gives a fuck?

[Nick]

Yeah, she just, like, wanted her husband there. And it was this more like, she. Her husband would normally be there if he wasn't, like, throwing baseballs 100 miles per hour. She wishes he was there, and she was expressing that. And the whole Internet fucking came for her.

[Natalie]

And she had to make an apology video. Being, like, crying, like, this isn't what I meant. Like, I'm so sorry to everyone I've offended. And it's like, guys, y' all have got to be able to just see something you don't agree with and scroll emotionally regulate.

[Nick]

And that's why Sydney Sweeney is, like, she is helping. She's healing America by letting people know. It's like, honestly, if you don't like what I'm doing, move the fuck on.

[Charlie]

Sure.

[Natalie]

I don't know if people are able to move on from Sydney Sweeney.

[Nick]

I think you should. It's really not your problem. Whatever.

[Natalie]

She did make a good point about the bathwater thing. She was like, everyone loved it when Jacob Elordi did it after salt water, salt bath, whatever the fuck.

[Nick]

Yeah, I loved it.

[Natalie]

But, like, he made his bath water Bath bomb. And everyone was like, eating that shit up. And she was like, but I can't.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah. Scooter Braun is wild, though.

[Nick]

She's like, what? She's like, what is going to piss off the masses even a little already?

[Charlie]

Yeah, but it's like, at the core, Sydney Sweeney is just like a girl who moved to Florida and started dating, like, a, like, lame dude. What?

[Nick]

Whoever the fuck she wanted.

[Charlie]

Exactly. And I'm like, that honestly tracks.

[Nick]

Good for her.

[Natalie]

Good for her. And also good for Cardi B. Because Cardi B. Has won her civil case.

[Nick]

Not guilty or I'm just gonna say it. Innocent.

[Natalie]

She did not hit that bitch.

[Charlie]

Innocent.

[Natalie]

Cardi7. I did not call her fat. I called her a bitch.

[Katie]

Not liable for any damages.

[Natalie]

But what's crazy is on their lunch break, while the jury, I guess, is deliberating or before the jury breaks to deliberate, she goes outside and of course, I don't know why her team led her outside to the front to the paparazzi and the news reporters. Like, she should have gone out a back door or a side door. And she goes out the front and someone says something about her offset her ex husband, like, fighting for paternity rights and, like, just, like, asking about her current boyfriend. Just like, questions that have nothing to do with this case. And she goes over to someone wanting an autograph, takes their pen, throws it at her assault trial. She throws a pin at this reporter.

[Charlie]

Again, I don't see her doing anything wrong.

[Natalie]

I know it was definitely valid, but it was like, maybe wait until, like, after the jury has, like, given you. Yeah, your.

[Katie]

She said, do you not hear, like, I know I won.

[Nick]

Come at me.

[Natalie]

And then the. Of course, you know, the plaintiff's lawyer is, like, gonna bring this up. You know, they go back into court and he's like, well, at lunch break, let me tell you what Ms. Cardi B. Did. And he's like, and I have the video to prove it. And he did. She did that on court grounds. At this court, he's like, really trying to, like, pull at the judge's like, court. The court on the court ground she assaulted somebody. And the judge was like, well, if the court didn't see it, then he's like, well, I can show you the video. And he's like, well, I'm sure you can, but, like, the court didn't see it, so.

[Nick]

It'S fine.

[Charlie]

How do you think. How do you think the barbs feel about Cardi being innocent?

[Nick]

I think they feel great. And props to Cardi B.

[Charlie]

The Barbs.

[Nick]

Oh, the Barbs.

[Natalie]

They don't eat the Barbs.

[Emily]

They might. Are they still beefing?

[Charlie]

I don't know. I mean, it's hard to tell. I feel like. I feel like it's Barbs against everyone because of what Nikki has done.

[Nick]

Why can't these fan groups all come together? Like, why can't the Beehive. What are the. The Swifties and the Beehive? I mean, the Barbara. Yeah.

[Emily]

Taylor Swift's fan base tries to claim, like, we all have crowns.

[Nick]

Right.

[Emily]

That one line she has, you know.

[Natalie]

I don't know if the Swifties are that kind to want to give their crowns.

[Emily]

That's true. That true. They tried.

[Charlie]

And the thing about the Beehive is, like, when they come at you, at least personally, I've been like, you know.

[Nick]

Been attacked by the Beehive.

[Charlie]

I've been attacked by the Beehive, but I've been like. When we were talking about Cowboy, you.

[Nick]

Do kind of look like a Swifty. Okay.

[Katie]

They were like, I don't know how to take that.

[Charlie]

Oh, my God.

[Natalie]

Bandana in your hair.

[Charlie]

I'm femme today, you guys.

[Natalie]

Yeah, Americana it is.

[Charlie]

Anyway, I was like, you know what? Fair point. I think sometimes when the stands come at you, you got to be like, you know what?

[Nick]

All right, you know, you need to send me Sweeney. It's you need not give a fuck.

[Emily]

Well, you know who's doing that? Karen Hooger. She's released from jail, and there's already cameras following her around, which is why.

[Nick]

Didn'T she just go to jail?

[Emily]

Yeah, I think it was six months or something.

[Natalie]

She had a quick little turnaround.

[Nick]

It was a quick six months.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, when you're not in the jail and you're not serving, it goes by fast. It goes by fast when you're not actually serving the time. Yeah.

[Emily]

She was waving to the people as the car drove out. It was cute.

[Nick]

Like, when you're a fan from the outside, it just breezes right by, you.

[Emily]

Know, we don't know if it's Bravo cameras, though. But there were cameras in her car as she exited the jail.

[Natalie]

I mean, who else would it be? Can she make, like, her own personal GoPros? I feel like that's not right.

[Katie]

I mean, season 10 premieres October 5th, so, yeah, they probably just did, like, a pickup, potentially.

[Natalie]

Oh, yeah.

[Charlie]

Or an ID documentary called Thomas Jefferson's Concubine. She should make merch. That's still, like, my favorite thing ever. It's the funniest thing you could say, TJ's comp. TJ's comp.

[Emily]

I think she's gonna try to hide that in her past.

[Natalie]

She definitely is. She's burying that. She's varying that. And Brittany Cartwright went on a romantic getaway with her new boyfriend.

[Emily]

So it's confirmed the man.

[Natalie]

So it is confir that man. And is he married?

[Nick]

Jackson shower.

[Katie]

According to the woman claiming to be his wife.

[Natalie]

She says that they're married.

[Katie]

She says that they're married.

[Nick]

There's a. Wait, there is another person out there who's claiming to be married to Britney's boyfriend.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Katie]

She's, like, left a comment on there being like, that's my husband. I'm gonna try to find it directly. But yeah.

[Nick]

Oh, boy. Brit.

[Katie]

According. Like, they're both going through separation is what I'm hearing. And, like, that's how they've come together.

[Natalie]

You're going through separation. That's not your man. So anymore you're trying to separate or he's trying to separate from you, but.

[Nick]

Can'T you just find a free agent? There's plenty of single, lonely men out there. That's it.

[Katie]

I also like the. The. The dynamics of, like, a separation versus, like, going through a divorce, though, where I'm like, so. Because it technically is still her husband, right? Because they haven't filed for divorce.

[Nick]

Listen, if you're on a date, right? And. And divorce takes a long time, and it can be messy. And you go on a date and someone's like, listen, I'm married, but I'm separated. I'm not divorced. Like, like, immediately you have a lot. Like, you have a long list of questions to ask. How does your wife feel about this? Even if you hate her and don't want to date them? Like, is she gonna. Is she gonna be a problem? Is he gonna be a problem? Is. Are they gonna be going on my Instagram commenting, that's my husband. Like, is it really worth it? Like, and in my experience, people who are separated but not divorced, where they have, like, messy divorces and they're. And they're already going on trips with their new partners. Like, usually those things don't.

[Katie]

Especially somebody who would be photographed. So I would say that. But I'm like, it's also giving an air of, like, Randall and Lala with the ex wife being like, we were still married, but he was telling her they were separated.

[Emily]

Also, Kristin said she met the man and, like, he's a genuine person.

[Katie]

Right.

[Emily]

With Brittany. So it seems like a good relationship.

[Katie]

This is just messy.

[Natalie]

Do you Think Brittany paid for the vacation or do you think he did?

[Nick]

I just don't think Brittany wants peace.

[Natalie]

She paid for everything with Jax.

[Emily]

I don't think we know anything about this person besides his name.

[Katie]

Brandon. Yeah. And that his ex or his wife is commenting saying he's my husband and that man is married.

[Nick]

I don't know.

[Charlie]

Is that scammer material, do you think?

[Natalie]

I mean, they are selfing it up on this beach.

[Nick]

It's potentially scammer material.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, married but separated. Immediate red flag.

[Natalie]

The insider divulged the pair reconnected well after he had already been separated and explained that they found comfort in each other as they've been navigating their respective divorces and personal life changes. I mean, like, is Britney even officially divorced yet or still separated?

[Katie]

That's what I think.

[Natalie]

They're both separated.

[Katie]

I don't know that official filings have happened. So I think that the term of.

[Natalie]

Being married, it seems like this woman maybe saw her legal husband getting some.

[Katie]

Attention with a family facing relationship and was like, let's go.

[Natalie]

Absolutely. The fuck?

[Emily]

Not such a messy.

[Natalie]

Messy. Messy.

[Nick]

I mean, listen. And people do it. It's just like. It's not. It's not going to not be messy.

[Katie]

Yeah. I just don't know that this would be work out well and like hashing it out publicly anyways, you know what I mean?

[Nick]

Good.

[Emily]

Did you see Ali Luber move to Charleston?

[Nick]

We heard about it.

[Natalie]

We did hear about it. I think maybe it's just like she's summering in the South.

[Emily]

She's following her astrology or whatever it is and just seeing what happens.

[Nick]

She's following the charts.

[Emily]

The charts.

[Natalie]

Yeah, she's following the charts. Maybe just like the chart letter to like a month long Airbnb.

[Nick]

Speaking of which, we followed the charts on Tuesday's episode. We had not that cosmic. An astrologist who accurately predicted the fallout between Love Island's ace Nick and Taylor and gave her predictions on Nickelandria, which, speaking of fan bases, I don't know if they have a name. They were not pleased with her prediction and it came for us. Oh. So I was like, I thought we said something nice about Nickelandria. And then I forgot that we had the astrologer on who gave their prediction.

[Natalie]

Oh, that they were. That they were gonna either define the relationship or break up.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

But I'm like, isn't that just.

[Natalie]

They were gonna define the relationship or break up. You do one or the other anyways.

[Katie]

In life, it's been X am amount of time.

[Natalie]

They're either gonna get married or break up.

[Nick]

I don't think we're allowed to say their name unless we're just simply obsessed.

[Charlie]

I personally am obsessed with Nickelandria.

[Katie]

We're here for it.

[Natalie]

Well, you know what I'm not obsessed with?

[Katie]

What are you not obsessed with?

[Natalie]

The new doc on Netflix. Unknown number, the High School Catfish. I'm pretty sure it's just rage bait in a movie because there is no happy ending. There's nothing to ruin.

[Nick]

First of all, spoiler alert. If you haven't watched it, you want to watch, you plan on watching it. Skip, skip, skip this part. I do think you're better off listening to what we have to say. You'll still enjoy it because it's a crazy story.

[Emily]

It's a documentary, right?

[Nick]

It's a doc.

[Natalie]

Yeah, it's a movie.

[Emily]

Yeah, well, movie and doc or nothing?

[Charlie]

Documentary.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Film.

[Nick]

Tell them about it, babe.

[Natalie]

Okay. It's a documentary film. A documentary movie. Just feel like that's not the same as a documentary film.

[Nick]

Well, it's not a. Well, sometimes it's not a docu series. Episode one, Episode two this is just. That's an hour and a half.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Okay.

[Emily]

It's real life, though.

[Charlie]

You were right.

[Natalie]

This happened in 2022, I believe, and it is absolutely batshit crazy. So this 14 year old girl is in a relationship with another 14 year old boy. They're in like junior high, however, whatever grade you're in, you know, young kids in love, whatever.

[Nick]

14, 14.

[Natalie]

And all of a sudden it's around Halloween and they get a text, group text her and her boyfriend from an unknown number. And it's like, Owen doesn't want you, you stupid. Like, you're not going to the Halloween party. He wants me instead. And they were like, oh, like, who's messing with us? Like, this is so weird. Like, okay, whatever. Anyways, it goes on for two years.

[Nick]

Well, it stopped for like a few months, maybe nine months. And then it started up again. And when it started back up again, it became incredibly excessive.

[Natalie]

Thousands of Messages a day, 700 pages.

[Nick]

Worth, printed out of text messages over the course of two years.

[Natalie]

Saying things the lines of, you are anorexic, you should off yourself.

[Nick]

You should kill yourself.

[Katie]

And this is anonymous?

[Nick]

Yes.

[Natalie]

All from. It's from a. They like have an app that like changes your number constantly. So it's not like, oh, just a. Someone's phone that they.

[Katie]

It's giving, like Pretty Little Liars. Like, it is.

[Natalie]

It is. So then it's a lot of Like Owen wants someone who will have sex with him and give him BJ's and like you're not really.

[Nick]

Disgusting messages. Very grass, very sexual, very dark, very horrific. Teenage like mean girl. Right. And it is Natalie and I went to a rodeo the other day.

[Natalie]

Oh, okay, hold on. If you were skipping, you can stop for now. I guess this is a family event.

[Nick]

And I, I was getting, I was getting some food for our, our family and I walked past this group of like I don't know, I don't know how 12, 13 girls and I just, I walked past them and I heard some of the most shocking things out of the mouths of these young women. And it was scary as a parent, but only, only. I'm sorry for interrupting. Just pointing out that like it is, you realize as a parent that like your kids grow up fast and when they go to school like it's scary to think that 14 year old girls might say something like this. But it is, it is giving that like young mean girls whose maybe parents like let them watch rated R movies might talk this way.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

You know, because they're online TikTok too.

[Charlie]

What is that movie where they say like hell is a teenage girl? Yeah, like teenage girls are some of the scariest people on the planet.

[Nick]

So even though these messages are horrific, it is giving like yeah, I don't.

[Natalie]

Know, maybe like and they're saying a lot of very like personal things. Things that like you know, only like the group of friends would know or like. Yeah. So the, you know, the parents were like this has to be someone who's close to them because they're, they know these details. Either they're like following very closely or it's someone in this group. They take it to the school. The school starts like watching back security footage to try to see who's on their phone. As the time of the text message comes in, like they finally take it to the police. The police starts like invest, you know, like talking to everybody in the school. Doesn't really come up with much. They try to like pin it on some other girl.

[Nick]

Yeah, there's a couple like suspects some of the girls who like for example Owen had a friend who was also close to him who didn't get along with Lauren, his then girlfriend who he described as not a bully but not.

[Natalie]

Nice, you know, police thought it was her for a moment and then finally they come up with like a dead end and they're like we just can't trace this number. Like we just can't figure it out. So finally they go to the FBI, they pull in the FBI. This is. We're now like two and a half years later. The text messages are still coming in.

[Nick]

Owen and Lauren have since broken up.

[Natalie]

Skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. Yep, Sorry. Just letting them know.

[Nick]

Whatever. Listen. Owen and Lauren have since broken up, but the messages keep going. And, like, Lauren and Owen are still being kind of harassed. He gets like a new girlfriend, and then this new girlfriend who's like, from like a different town starts getting messages like, hey, my.

[Natalie]

Someone just texted my mom from a random number, like, do you know who this is? And he's like, I'm so sorry, Owen's mom, Jill.

[Nick]

I mean, these families are being harassed. It's just like, it's this dark person who won't leave them alone. And it's just like, they can'. Figure out who it is.

[Natalie]

Owen's mom responding to the text, saying, like, you're making me want to, you know, off myself. Like, please stop sending me these messages. Like, what do you want from me? You know, it's just so dark. It's so sad. The FBI finally is able to track IP addresses from the app to the. To Verizon. Verizon. It comes back as Lauren's mom. Oh, that's her mother.

[Katie Janela]

This mother.

[Natalie]

This mother is telling her daughter that the boyfriend. She's not giving the boyfriend blowjob. A 14 year old isn't giving her boyfriend blowjobs or sex. And, like, she needs to do better.

[Emily]

Wait, wait, what does the mom do? What does her.

[Natalie]

So the mom turns out she worked.

[Nick]

For, like, a tech company.

[Natalie]

She worked for a tech company and was fired because both of her jobs. No, no, no. Just was fired. So they had a lot of financial issues. She didn't tell her husband that she was fired. She was lying to the whole family of like, yeah, I gotta go to work. Meanwhile, she's literally just sending her daughter thousands of messages a day. That was her job.

[Emily]

So she was unhappy about her life.

[Natalie]

And, like, had the interviewers, like, you told your daughter to, like, kill herself? How could you do that? And she's like, well, I just knew she wouldn't. So that's very frustrating. She's like, laughing through it. It's sick.

[Katie]

What's the justice that gets served in such situations?

[Nick]

Well, she goes to jail.

[Natalie]

She goes to jail. Thank God for the maximum sentence. I think it was like 19 months.

[Nick]

For, like, federal stalking. No, it definitely wasn't enough. And they, you know my frustration with the doc I'm trying to find. They interviewed the director and there was a quote here.

[Katie]

I was like, what are the protections for the daughter when it's so sad?

[Natalie]

Because the daughter. Well, the daughter's like, you know, while the mom's in prison, she's like, we talk twice a week. She's like, I miss my mom. Like, I miss. It's.

[Nick]

There's a lot of trauma. It's really sad.

[Natalie]

You know, she's like an only child. She's like, that was like my closest person, my best friend. Like, I miss her. I miss the, like, feeling of having my mom around.

[Nick]

The really frustrating part with the doc, to criticize how it was put together, specifically the director, it seemed to empathize with the mom more than I wanted it to because. Yeah, it was just more like, well, how. First of all, the mom participated in the doc. So while you're watching the doc, she's in the dock.

[Natalie]

Yes. The mom's, like, telling you, like, about what's going on. She's crying. She's being like, and these people were harassing my daughter.

[Emily]

And we don't know it's her until later.

[Nick]

We don't know. No, no, it's her. And then when they finally caught her, she said that it wasn't me at first, but then, like, her explanations make no sense. She's clearly lying. Clearly this compulsive liar. I mean, you can clear. This is like a sick person. They don't bring any type of, like, psychologist up, you know, like, it was giving, like, they actually. The. The. The principal of the school who was kind of buffoony but had had a. Had a guess. He. He kind of guessed his analysis or his, like, what diagnosis, which seemed kind of accurate. It was giving kind of Mun and Allah Gypsy Rose, like, hurting her daughter.

[Natalie]

So that her daughter needs her more.

[Emily]

Oh, interesting.

[Nick]

But certainly. But also there was, like, there a clear weird obsession with this Owen guy. Like this, you know, because if it.

[Charlie]

Continued after they broke up and going.

[Nick]

After his girlfriend, and then you find out from after the fact that his mom, like, was showing up to his games.

[Emily]

He's a minor too, which.

[Nick]

So that gave it very weird. And then. So the director was interviewed by Variety because people were surprised that the mom participated in the doc. And she says, I quote, she actually ended up really loving the experience at the end of it. She said it was kind of fun. She laughed about things. And I think it was really an opportunity for her to think about things a little bit more in depth. Every time I would ask a question, she would really have to think about things. And I think that was good for her. Who gives a fuck what was good for her?

[Natalie]

If I ever saw this woman in person, it's on site, I would be arrested.

[Charlie]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Like, how this director was able to be like, I. I just don't know.

[Nick]

Why the director empathized with this mom more than, like, the actual victims like Lauren and. And Owen. And I. I want to. I want a diagnosis here. I want Bring on some psychologist, explain to me why a mother would do something this horrific to her child. Right, right. Like, the best. The best we got was from the mom that giving. Like. Well, I. You know, she talked about being a victim of some terrible things when she was 17 and talked about childhood trauma. And it's just like. No, I get it. Like, we. Now that even become a bit of a trope. And again, like, yes, our childhood traumas can explain some of our very bad mistakes and things that we do and have to heal from. This is a whole nother level of, like, emotionally abusing your child and other children over the course of two years, lying to your entire community and family. I need you to explain to me something so dark and horrific other than, like, I had some childhood trauma that I have to deal with. And then the director kind of like. Like, humanizing this mom in a way that I'm just not interested in her being humanized.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Charlie]

That's kind of like the issue of, like, the ethics of true crime a lot of the time when you kind of get into it, because at a certain point, you are kind of platforming these terrible people in order to. You're telling a compelling story first and foremost, versus, like, trying to have justice for the people that this happened to.

[Emily]

I mean, to understand the story, you have to understand the mind.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Charlie]

And you have to, like, empathize with.

[Natalie]

The mind, because it's like this just this mom who's, like, doesn't feel like she really did anything that wrong. She literally says, everyone's made mistakes. And, like, I'm sure everyone has done something illegal. Like, I'm sure everyone listening has, like, drove drunk at least once. Like, that's illegal. That's the same thing I did, but just, like, different.

[Charlie]

Not, are you crazy?

[Natalie]

But also, that was another.

[Nick]

There was no, like, no one questioned that. They just let this woman say that without any, like, objection to it.

[Natalie]

And then she says something like, she was, like, trying to pull up a photo or something. She's like, y' all are going to think I'm a crazy lady. Well, yeah. Yeah, we do.

[Nick]

You're sick but then, like, it was. I mean, Claire, you could tell the director didn't. Like, there was another set of parents, the parents of the alleged mean girls that they thought might have done it. The one girl who Owen said, my friend's not a bully, but she's not nice. And then they interviewed this person's parents who, like, you can kind of, like, you can. You know, if your kids are bullies in school, then you meet the parents. Sometimes you go, okay, now I got it. I. It makes sense. At the very. You know, they were like, I don't know why our. Our. Everyone thinks our daughter's a bully. She just. She's just, like, popular.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Like, she just has friends from all the other schools, and they're probably jealous.

[Nick]

Yeah. I'm like, okay. And then at the very end of the dock, they get sound bites from these two parents who, you know, they're frustrated that got accused for something she didn't do. Totally get that. Right? But then they're like. Then they throw the. The local cop under the bus and say he's a piece of shit. It. And then also blame Lauren, the girl, the real victim in this, and her dad, who also has been lied to by his wife.

[Emily]

Crazy.

[Nick]

Without any evidence.

[Natalie]

Like, I think they had a part in it.

[Nick]

And it's just like, no, they didn't.

[Katie Janela]

And you could just.

[Nick]

In that moment, you're like, yeah, now I know why your daughter is described as not a bully, but not.

[Natalie]

But, like, it was just full rage bait. Like, the whole time, you're just mad.

[Emily]

Like, there's so many questions.

[Natalie]

Yeah, I'm gonna watch it.

[Nick]

I just. It's.

[Emily]

Are the parents still together?

[Natalie]

No.

[Emily]

Let's see if I'm that dad. I know it's complicated, but, like, if I'm that dead, I'm out.

[Natalie]

Yeah. No, the dad was, like, when he found out, like, the cop has, like, the body cam on. So you see, like, the cop.

[Nick]

You see the moment he finds out, it's. It's sad. It's so sad, man. But is it, like, as. As new parents, you know, we feel so lucky to have river and. And so blessed, and we are trying our best to be good parents and. And I'm sure we'll make our mistakes, but it is scary when you watch these. These docs to know that there are just. Just sick people out there who are parents. You know, there are parents out there who will, like, allow their kids to be 12, 13 years old and go to a rodeo and have their kids, like, act like adults saying Horrific things that they're not supposed to be saying. And, like, how do you protect your kids from these people? It's a scary world out there.

[Natalie]

I don't know. No, when I was 12, I was definitely saying crazy ass.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Charlie]

I mean, I got catfished by a girl I knew in middle school.

[Emily]

That's some crazy lore.

[Charlie]

Yeah. Yeah. On kick.

[Emily]

Oh, well, see, we were raised on kick. Yeah. So, yeah, an anonymous textbook. And it was like, kids dating these adults that were, like, hidden behind crazies.

[Charlie]

Yeah. There was this. So I was like, obviously myself in middle school, and there's this girl I was friends with, and she was like, oh, I have this cousin, and she's, like, in love with you. And at the time I was like, like, that's disgusting.

[Natalie]

Like, you girl on Ew.

[Nick]

No.

[Charlie]

Why would you think that about me?

[Nick]

And.

[Natalie]

But is she interested?

[Charlie]

No, I was like, ter. And then it was like this, like, random person. Like, there was a whole name and everything and started, like, messaging me on kick. And I was like, stop talking to me. And then there was, like, a fake. She made, like, a fake Instagram profile for it and was like, if you don't want me, like, I'm gonna go to the FBI. And I was in sixth grade, and I was like, FBI? I. I was, like, freaking out. Like, oh, my God. Like, is this, like, per. And. But then at the same time, I was like, I know this is you. Like, I know this isn't real, but it, like, still with your head when you're like, a kid.

[Katie Janela]

Like that.

[Charlie]

Anyway, yeah, I got catfish.

[Katie]

But I also think it's kind of terrifying because, like, at least when I was in school, like, it's like, maybe like an anonymous note left in a locker, not like a whole, like, Internet profile made to troll. Like, I don't know, the whole community.

[Nick]

Whole school knew about this.

[Katie Janela]

That's what I'm saying.

[Katie]

It's like the whole, like, Internet aspect of it, where I was like. I got it towards the end with, like, AIM and like. Like, live journals and things. And people would write anonymous, like, post about people.

[Emily]

That's coming back. There's social media apps now where you're like, it's per school.

[Natalie]

It's like, ask fm.

[Charlie]

Oh, my God, Ask fm.

[Nick]

Exactly. Up next, we have Cecilia Philhoy from Lovecom Revenge. Also, she was one of the victims on Tinder Swindler. He is now going after perpetrator on Netflix's upcoming series that focuses on romance fraud. And they'll be going after some of the same type of people that conned her. But now she is the one on the hunt, so to speak. Love Con Revenge premieres on Netflix on tomorrow Friday, September 5th, so be sure to check that out. You will want to watch it if you well it'll give you the heebie jeebies, but you'll also be super into it. It.

[Natalie]

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[Nick]

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[Nick]

Welcome to the show, Cecilia. How are you?

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Oh, I'm good. Thank you for having me.

[Nick]

We're very excited to have you Such. I mean, I don't know even know how to describe Love Con revenge or just I guess this, this, this space, this, this scam artist space that you've become a part of very unfortunately, but you've in the best possible way. I've seen the like, you know, reclaim your power and now with Love Con revenge, helping some of these other victims, these women who are being scammed by these men. So just very excited to have to get a chance to speak with you. I think this is a space that has fascinated so many people. Obviously Tinder Swindler captivated us, fascinated us. It'. It scared us. There were so many questions and there's so many judgments that come along with this space. But I just love to start with hearing a little bit from you. What is this whole experience been like kind of becoming a public figure from Tinder Swindler. Yeah, let's just start there.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah, I, I think what I say a lot of times is like, I love true crime and suddenly ended up in one yourself. I think I am one of the ones who always are on Netflix, like looking, looking after the latest thing. So kind of seeing kind of the popularity and what the Tinder swindler actually became and the phenomenon, it was just astonishing. But I, I think I was kind of lucky in a sense that how I was defrauded was just so wild. So people had a real kind of what the f. If I can curse, what is. I can curse what the. So, yeah, it's been mind blowing to kind of that this is my job now. That is very weird.

[Nick]

Yeah, obviously. I think when it comes to this space, for lack of a better word to try to describe it, I think there is a huge fascination and shock, I think for audience members both like the, I think the shock of these perpetrators, these men, almost like the shock of, like, oh, these, like the realization that, like, icky men like this exist. And then I also think there's a. A lot of, you know, quite honestly, like, judgment and confusion as it relates to the victims. And I think a lot of people have this, like, how could you be so stupid? How could you let this happen? Certainly these lies are elaborate, but for someone who's been a victim, can you try to put us in the minds of what it's like to meet these type of men and. And explain why they are so convincing and why they're able to do what they do? Because I think in a lot of cases, these aren't victims who are stupid or who you would ultimately think know better. But what is going on, like, get us into the psychology of why this is able to happen.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah, I think, first of all, I think fraud is one of the very few crimes. I know there's some others as well, where we're really focusing on the actions of the victims than the actions of the perpetrators and the criminals. And we're asking them why they did what they did. And this would have never happened if we didn't have criminals kind of starting everything and making them do it, which is really, really sad. But I think I always go back to that. This is just so human. And they're using that human trust, and they're using that. We're all vulnerable when we're looking for love. And that is not a crime. I always go back to it when people say, oh, you were too stupid or you were naive. That is not crimes. And these are highly sophisticated, highly organized criminals that are coming together to actually abuse people. And that is what I really. What my. One of part of my activism is actually changing that language, kind of falling for a scam. For example, we don't say that you're falling for a rape or a falling for a burglar. You know, this is something that's happening to you, so that kind of like you're being targeted by criminals. So what is happening is that they take you through kind of a journey. I call it like trust engineering almost. They know the tactics that work when people are looking, for example, for love. And that kind of. Now it goes into more crypto investments, you know, like, let us build the future together. Now it's not so much about people being in danger, so they're doing love bombing. You know, it sounds like that you found your soulmate. And a lot of people are lonely in this world, and they're always wanting just to find that one. And I just don't feel that it's right that we meet these people when they come out on the other side being, you know, abused and battered and we laugh at them. So for me, there's several tactics at place here where you both have future faking. People really want you to kind of of be together and create that future with marriage and kids. I had that too. You know, I was right there was ready when I was 30 years old to, you know, find the man of my dreams. And that is all. And after a while it becomes an abusive relationship. That, that's how I see it that you're in it and there's someone that is not treating you right, putting you into situations that they shouldn't. For example, you know, taking up credit credit or taking out your pension or whatever. But we can't see it because we're deep into it. So it's very similar to domestic abuse. They isolate you from friends and family so you feel that it's you against the world. So there's like plethora here and kind of the last one that I think is so important why we continue to stay. You know, sometimes it's like, why did you understand why, for example, in my case, why did you end up with $250,000 before you understand you're being defrauded it. But we have something called a sunk cost fallacy where the more effort we put into anything, you know, relationships, business, that is much more difficult to turn your back on it. And especially if you realize you've been, you know, a crime has been committed against you that is, and that's something that you've kind of done to yourself, it's really difficult to get out of.

[Nick]

Yeah, well, that, that, that sunk cost fallacy with I think the most relatable example is for anyone who's in a relationship and, and their friends are like, I just don't know if he's your guy. And they're like, but we've been together for four years or five years and like we've, we've put in so much work and so, so many people stay, you know, minus take away the fraud element just like a normal relationship that maybe isn't just serving itself or it's ran its course. So many people stay in those relationships because of this idea that they've already invested so much. And that's into your point. It's even in generally healthy but just like it's not working relationships, people will stay in those relationships much longer just because of the work they did in it. And to your point, like, it's not shocking to hear. It's just like when these types of atrocities happen to these victims, it must be very difficult to face that reality of what happened because it must be a very scary moment, I guess, for yourself when you realize you were defrauded. What. How did you come to grips with that? Was it almost like this kind of of out of body like experience where it just, like you just, you couldn't come to grips that it actually this is what was going on.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

I think, as I say, like, I think I waited two weeks. I think I knew kind of for two weeks. It's almost like the waiting room. You just have to open the door and pause through it. And that is when you know that your entire life is over. That is difficult. So I think my body told me before I did anything, you know, or rethinking it. I got became nauseous. I was always throwing up at work because I kind of knew now, like, because he had turned on me and turned into this character that I never seen before and it was awful. So I can feel with a lot of the victims now, you know, when I'm doing the work I'm doing is like, because I've been there, I lived it. I not only having just sympathy and empathy with you, I'm a peer because I know the pain it is to actually having to realize that the one you loved never loved you. Yeah, think about that. I'm trying to put people into that mindset. Like, we all need to trust in society and we can't go through life without loving or trusting someone. And to get hit by that, that is you question yourself, you question your judgment and you have to try to rebuild after that.

[Natalie]

You know, watching Love con revenge, I. The point where it was kind of like, it's not a crime because, like, they're just friends, like, helping me, me pay off my debts or like for, for anyone who's listening, if they, they're in that situation of like, you know, this is how they've made it seem like, is that a crime? How do I protect myself if. If they just keep telling me like, oh, this is just. You're just helping me, you know, like you're offering the money to me. You're. I'm not taking it from you. Like, you're giving it to me.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah, like, this is what these criminals are doing. They're leaning into the trope of society while you gave your money away, you know. Yeah, but it's the intent error that we all always have to be mindful of. And everyone forgets that, like it's fraud if you lie about the reasoning for the money, you lie about your business, that your business is never going to be set up, even though you have some land. Like, yeah, we have, we have some different stories here that is just mind blowing how far people will go. And for me, that, yes, that is something that's very difficult in these cases. How do you prove intent? How do you prove that someone didn't mean to pay you back? So, yeah, that is why it's difficult and that's why the, that's why you have to gather a lot of evidence and you have to find a lot of victims to show the pattern.

[Nick]

Do you have any stats or is there any information out there of just how prevalent this industry, I guess, is? If it is an industry of just like, how many, is it specific? Like male con artists? I mean, do, are, are, are there women conning men in a similar fashions? The way that you focus on some of these con artist men? And do you have any stats of how prevalent this, this space is?

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Well, like cybercrime as a whole is the third largest economy in the world, so you can imagine how lucrative it is. And we know that fraudsters are going from drug trafficking to defraud instead, because think about it, digital here, no footprint and kind of the years in prison as well. Well, far below drug profit. So just by that, and it's billions every single year, both in the US and uk, that is going into the hands of criminals just only on romance fraud. So, and in romance fraud, what's very sad as well is that the, the number loss per victim is much higher than in many others, you know, because it takes longer and they can drain more of you. And a lot of times, romance and investment fraud is combined as well. So people lose a lot of money. Money. So it's, it's, it's crazy to me how little we pay attention to it when there's so much money is going from, you know, U.S. citizens to criminals and to criminal activities that are fueling terrorism and drug trafficking. That is how I always look at it when people are saying, you know, oh, I don't care about you, you know, like, I don't feel sorry for you. And then I'm like, well, we don't want this money to end up in criminal sense.

[Nick]

Obviously we have a large audience of women.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And as scary as it is to say, there's probably people listening to this episode who probably are being defrauded and don't even realize it, whether it's being catfished or they're actually speaking to someone right now. What are signs to look out for and what are some things that might be going on in your relationship that should raise red flags that it may be in the early stages of a relationship would otherwise seem like kind of normal or just like, you know, there's a reason for it. What are some things to look out for?

[Cecilia Philhoy]

I, I feel like we have to go back into what is kind of a bad relationship or a bad start to relationship. A lot of times where everything is moving very quickly. They are wanting that closeness to you. They're very similar to you. You. They agree with a lot of what you're saying. They want the same things. Like the same things, which is, that is what's so sad about this crime. A lot of times that is just normal that things are moving quickly or that you have the same interest. But from these criminals, they're using that as manipulation and tactics for me as well, which is a very interesting one, is that they test you for compliance. So nothing to do with money. Of course they will mention money quite early on and maybe they're an investment or want to know how much money you have.

[Nick]

Have.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

But this is like testing to see if you will do as they say. For example, will you change the time you meet up? Will you change the kind of food you eat? Would you just, you know, just change your opinion sometimes and just go after what they're saying? And that is just to see what type of person you are. Will you go with what they say? Will you trust them on their word? And it's so cunning. I saw it several times in Love, Con, Revenge because I was going through, through, you know, the evidence based like messages and it was eerily how similar it was to both my own criminal. But throughout the season, kind of just to see where I could see, oh God, here he's just testing her and she's going along with it. And it's so sad to see that in hindsight you want to scream at them. And I think some of the things that I wish more people would do is just talk about the people you meet online. The more other people around you see and know, the easier it is to get dragged out or dragged out of the relationship or situation you're in because they are craving and are betting on that you will rather lean on, you know, your new boyfriend or girlfriend than your friends.

[Nick]

I think what's the one of the saddest parts about this whole space, to your point you mentioned is that there are a lot, a lot of lonely people out there looking for connection, looking for companionship. And even if it's not like relationship scams, you know, for money purposes, maybe it's just someone being catfished. Right. And the sad reality is the people being scammed, they are at least early on, like, getting some kind of emotional benefit from this, right. That companionship. They're excited to be talking to someone, even if they've never met them or FaceTime. Of all the things they go, if you never FaceTime them. But they, you know, these lonely people are making these connections. And I think it's very difficult for the victims to, like, wake up and realize what's going on. And there might be people listening right now who can think of a friend or a family member who they think is being scammed or catfished, but they're having a hard time breaking through to that person because, again, this person is finding some kind of companionship, maybe for the first time in a while.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Smile.

[Natalie]

How.

[Nick]

What do you recommend for someone listening who might have a friend or a family member they think is being duped by either a catfish or, you know, one of these con artists? What can they look for? How. How can you, as someone who's been on the. The receiving side of this scamming, how can you get someone to maybe wake up and see what's going on? Because I think, to your point, it's so difficult for these people to. To just be honest with themselves about what's going on, because it's like, well, I don't want to lose this thing that I have, you know, this companionship. And it's just a very difficult and sad situation.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

I got. I was at a conference last week where there was a quote from a victim who said, but this is the first time someone has ever told me they loved me.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

And think about the power of that and that you have that. So I think the more empathy we have, and I think empathy is the word here, if you're going to approach someone that you love, love, because it's super difficult and it's not an easy thing. I talk to a lot of banking people as well, who's trying to get people to realize they're being defrauded. And they're always asking me, what can we say? Like, they're just refusing. We tell them straight out. And that is the issue that you're telling them straight out. No one wants to be told they're stupid. And by you saying that, you're being defrauded. And that your boyfriend or girlfriend is a fraudster, you're kind of telling people that they're stupid. And that is a very difficult reality to handle. And I understand we should just understand it immediately. You know, come on someone objectively what I would love for family to do, maybe if they have a picture of the individual, if it's the catfish to go on Google Images or there are other kind of software you can use to check if it's a deep fake. Just check if some AI has been used or if there is a celebrity, you know, and those cold hard facts might open their eyes. If you come with that, if you're saying directly like I think you're being defrauded, you need to come with some more than that. And I think as well coming just with empathy. I think when I was at the bottom it was a banking employee that just asked me how are you? And I was so beaten down. That little empathy there instead of wondering about the money money because of course it was a banking employee wondering okay, what's going on here with the transfers and everything but how was I as a human being? And just to take that calmness. It's so important because we will go on the defense. I was on the offense with one of the banks that was in mind where I even sent in a complaint email to them because I said how dare you stop the credit card? You know. So I've been on this side where I've been very angry and it's very unfortunate because by that we will run straight into our frosters arms and then they will tell you that yeah, no one understands us. You know what you and I, what you and I have is very special and love is a drug. The reason why we say love is blind and especially. But that is how some meet with empathy and don't go on the attack because it will feel like an attack. If you say we think that your boyfriend or girlfriend is a fraudster.

[Nick]

Yeah. How have you changed since your experience on the Tinder swindler got God I.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

I was on breakfast TV in Norway back in 2019 and I went back recently to watch it and she saw me back then so vulnerable, so distraught. Had no idea what had happened to her. At rock bottom. It changed my entire life. And I love that I can show kind of fraud victims now like the ones in love con revenge. That is another. There's another side to this, you know there your life doesn't need to be over. But I am. I had to file for bankruptcy. I lost my flat that I Owned it has been had like huge consequences for me. So that's why I'm trying to always say like the fight that a fraud victim have to endure is a lot of times afterwards then the fraud in itself is when you have to try to rebuild your life. But I'm quite privileged by which both the country that I'm from that a lot of people just trust. Oh, you're from Norway, like love your country, trust you, want to hear your story. So I don't take that lightly that I have that voice and are able to help others now. It's, it's weird, but it's great being.

[Nick]

Someone who was a victim of such a notorious con artist in the Tinder Swindler Filming Love Con Revenge. Did any of these victims stories shock you in a way outside of your own experience or did it feel like they're all kind of eerily similar?

[Cecilia Philhoy]

The tactics are really similar, like how they make you feel. I think that human element is super similar because we humans, we are much more similar than we are different. But my God, I was shocked. I thought my frauster was bad. I thought he went to lengths. He's nothing compared to some of these individuals that we have have. I can't go into detail, I think, but I think a lot of people are using other humans as you know, to seem legit. They're using careers, they're just using identity. Identity is so powerful. If you say that you're a doctor or a decorated military, we automatically. And they're living it. I have to say this is insane as well. This is different than the online one ones. You know, they are living this. People are seeing them and they have that real past of these military, doctor, businessman, you know, baseball player.

[Nick]

Not to give a two minute much away, but the, the guy who referenced his military background, who claimed to have a military service dog, who had the dog. And it's just like you would, you just, you would never think that that's a whole front, that, that that's fake break, you know, it's just that as.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

I always say, Simon didn't do it, didn't do that. He didn't, he didn't go through those lengths. There's other stuff he did, but kind of what you get out of that and it's that callousness and as I said, these in person ones are just so horrendous and there are horrible, evil human beings. They can meet you face to face and give you kisses and be intimate with you. I mentioned that in the documentary which a lot of people are kind of losing sight of that. People are having intimate relationships with these people. You know, what about that? What do you feel when you didn't consent to that relationship? There's so, there's so many layers to what you as a victim have to come through. But what most people are saying, what about the money? And I'm more like, but what about them as human beings? All of them are crying in this series because of what happened to them.

[Nick]

Do you think with the Tinder swindler and imagine Love con revenge is going to be highly watched and discussed and talked about? Are you optimistic that you're bringing a level of awareness not only to, you know, the audience and the alleged victims, but also law enforcement is almost like a roadmap to how to finally start holding these scammers accountable. Because like to your point, like you said in the doc and you said it here today, it's. It walks this really gray area of like, like this seems fucked up. But is it a crime? You know, like you even mentioned in the document, like there's aren't even exactly like specific defined laws in place to prosecute these criminals in a way. And do you feel like there will be a change in legislation or laws that will actually make it easier to go after some of these scammers?

[Cecilia Philhoy]

I really, really hope so. The thing is that there are laws in place. They're just not widely known by both the police. They're very difficult to, you know, prosecute. There's several layers to this and levels in the US I was taught that that is many reasons why they're not going after them. So the laws are there. Like we have one where we have a DA from, from California coming in like theft under this, under deception. So there is, but it's kind of the time consuming part and getting a jury to actually find them guilty for a D A to do that, that takes a lot of false to do if they're not really sure if they will get a conviction. Because people have these preconceived notions about, about like fraud, you know, well, you gave away your money kind of. So that I think is really difficult. What I am trying to hopefully get and change in legislation is that, that they have to face consequences for what they did to us as human beings. This is so much more than the money lost. This is kind of mental abuse that a lot of them have suffered and especially the one with the family. And that is where I'm so sad that they're going to get two, three years in jail. How Much are they going to serve and then they learn from this. That is the worst part. They will only get better. They will, you know, then jump states, you know, to continue. I just get very angry because that is like the one thing I'm hoping that we can create those discussions. Yes, as you said, Nick, about the law enforcement, how they meet the victims, how they talk to them. But it's more one, they have to file a police report on the lawn outside the police house. And it's just so jarring to me as a fraud victim, how a lot of fraud victims are being treated when they're coming in, trying to report a very traumatic experience. This is not just a car being stolen, golden, if you know what I mean.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

In February of this year, Simon launched his own crypto coin and. And released his biography book. How does it feel to have him, like, still trying to make money off of this?

[Cecilia Philhoy]

He did not release a book. He did not release a book. It's. That is another scam and fraud. And I think that has been always so funny to me. And I don't mean it like that. Everyone was like, going after us, you know, like, how could you trust them? You know, how could you trust them? And every time he says something, he was going to be the new bachelor, you know, gonna like ever all of this stuff, dating show and dating app and everything. And I'm sitting there, he's a liar, and he's a proven liar. Why are we trusting him? But yeah, he managed to find some other criminals over in Dubai and have this, have this meme coin and went on several podcasts there with defamatory comment, Terry, about me and the other girls, which is highly critical of, I think the podcasters that are sitting there saying, like, yeah, I do believe you. They made a hit piece on you. And I'm like, who, Who?

[Katie]

Why are you believing him?

[Nick]

And.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

And then I have been approached by new victims of him as well, which is really, really sad. And that is when everyone's saying to me, you know, move on with your life and forget about it is very highly difficult. I'm not the one to turn my back on people. And he's going after more and more vulnerable people, people so that I. It's not being listened to, that it's not getting a Netflix documentary. And he knows this now. He's learned. And yes, it's for me as well. I have to say, it's quite funny to see him being angry and upset with the success. He's heard, of course now about love, con, revenge, and he's saying that I can't catch any scammers and everything. So I'm like, yeah, continue. You know, it's like we are convinced of. I don't like to battle with him online, but it's kind of just an interesting aspect to this that he's still out there.

[Nick]

How did you, like, locate some of these victims to be able to try to go after their perpetrators?

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Well, some of them wrote to me, actually, like, after the Tinder Swindler, one of them wrote, and in the headline, there's a Tinder swindler in the US So a lot of them have been very amazingly well at, you know, investigating their own story and wanting to do the same as I did. You know, there's power and justice in. In getting the faces of these individuals out there because it will stop them. Even though Simon is still out there, a very easy Google search will show him who he really is. I didn't have that back in 2018, and I have wanted to be able to do that for others. So there is. And. And I just hope that we can, you know, help a lot of other victims. I have to say as well that we do have a male story in the series, because that is a very important factor of the show. That is not only. I think I know. Nick, you asked that question earlier about how many are there more men than women? This is not a gendered crime at all. It's 50, 50 split between men and women. There's a lot of men hurting and this in silence. They would rather go to the gray with this. And I think it's so, so sad to see that there's so many. There are many stories that are not being told because of that.

[Nick]

Thank you for your time.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Thank you for having me.

[Nick]

This is crazy. I mean, it's just so much to digest. Where can people find you? Obviously, love Common Revenge is out tomorrow, but where can people, you know, find all the other things that you're doing and just. Yeah, plug away.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

I actually am an author now as well. Okay. Me and Pernilla from the Tinder Swindler, we came out with a book called Swindled Never After. So I would. That is more of a continuation of the story. More expert commentary on the problem that we're facing. I'm on Instagram, Cecilia underscore my website, cecilafielho.com so there's many ways and reach out. And I'm a founder of my nonprofit, Loves said, as on loveset.org you can come and get Both step by step help and support. If you are a victim of romance fraud or if your friends and family, we're there to support you if you need.

[Nick]

Well, Cecilia, really appreciate it. Thanks for sharing your story. Again, sorry that you were victimized, but it is very encouraging to see the work that you're doing knowing that you are helping a lot of people just get through this because, yeah, like you said, I mean, it's. It's just so sad to see one, you know, know the crime being committed, but just the healing process that it takes for these people to overcome not only the financial but the emotional loss that they experience, it's. It's really quite devastating.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Thank you for having me.

[Nick]

Thank you again.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Thank you.

[Nick]

That was wild.

[Charlie]

Yeah.

[Katie]

I feel like these scammers should be on a list or something. Like, it's just like, if you're gonna serve minimal time for defrauding people and I don't know what you know, but I'm just like, I feel like there should be, like a list or some sort of registry that, like, if you're.

[Natalie]

Out free in the world, world, I.

[Katie]

Should be able to look you up and see that, like, you have done this to other people. I'm like, I don't know why that's so hard.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

It is crazy that this. This Simon, the Tinder Schwindler is, like, signed to a, like, agent in agency.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

And it's like he's just out there, like, on podcasts, writing a book, like, wanting to be an actor. It's like, this is just. It is crazy that they. Yeah. Like, they're allowed to have careers. Well, time to get to Katie Janela. As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge before the year ends, Rosetta Stone makes it easy to turn a few minutes a day into real language progress. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile, whenever and wherever it fits your summer schedule.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

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[Natalie]

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[Nick]

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[Natalie]

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[Nick]

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[Natalie]

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[Nick]

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[Katie Janela]

When I got your DM, I was like oh. I was like oh. I said no. And you were like why did you say no? I'm like, cuz you scared the out of me with your questions. That's why.

[Nick]

What's wrong with my questions?

[Katie Janela]

They're very snarky sometimes.

[Nick]

Oo, are you a fan? Do you listen?

[Katie Janela]

I just gave myself away. No, wait.

[Natalie]

Some.

[Katie Janela]

Some of the that you have on. I do listen. Yeah, you're good. You're a good interviewer.

[Nick]

Oh, thank you. I hope they're not hard. I hope they're just.

[Katie Janela]

Well, because you're not on the receiving end.

[Nick]

Well, if you have nothing to hide, they're not hard. But welcome Katie.

[Katie Janela]

Thanks for having me.

[Nick]

We're very excited to have you.

[Natalie]

We are excited.

[Nick]

Thank you for coming. Katie. First, as you may have not heard, I don't know if we'll keep that part in. First declined the invitation.

[Katie Janela]

I did.

[Nick]

To come on the Vile Files.

[Katie Janela]

I did.

[Nick]

And then I begged.

[Natalie]

You did?

[Katie Janela]

Well, you sort of. Not really.

[Nick]

No. I DM'd grovel.

[Katie Janela]

I was like, katie, you're like, why did you decline? And I literally said, because you scare the shit out of me.

[Nick]

And then I said, I promise you a great time.

[Katie Janela]

Well, let's see.

[Nick]

And I'll keep my.

[Natalie]

She said, I'm waiting for the great time to begin.

[Katie Janela]

When does that start?

[Nick]

You haven't had fun yet. Well, it's really nice to meet you. We're all. You have a room full of fans here. I told Katie I'm team no. 1.

[Natalie]

He did.

[Katie Janela]

Which I thought was kind of rude.

[Katie]

I commit team Katie.

[Nick]

Thank you.

[Katie Janela]

Listen, I appreciate it.

[Nick]

I can't, you know, a different franchise. I won't say who. It's like I want so and I'd love to get so and so on and then in your hair like, well, they're not going to come up because you had so and so on, and it's just like I, you know, I'm.

[Katie Janela]

Just trying to play fair that I'm childish.

[Nick]

It does. So, yeah, thank you for coming. I really appreciate it. But, yeah, I'm not. I don't want to take sides. I just want to hear everyone's. We're just. We're just fans of all of you, you know?

[Katie Janela]

Okay.

[Nick]

Where do you want to start? Can I start with.

[Katie Janela]

Okay, you wanna get right into it.

[Katie]

Do you wanna start with, like, how you got on the show?

[Katie Janela]

I would say that I don't really want to discuss Keke. I think there's been enough discussion. I think that it's giving her more time, the time that she asked for.

[Nick]

Mm. Okay. So you didn't talk to her?

[Katie Janela]

I did. We did have lunch.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Katie Janela]

We first met in la. I was at a Bravo, Diamonds and roses or something party and she was there and I went up and I said, oh, my gosh. I've been following for a long time. I love your true crime and your pop culture. Think you're amazing. She then followed me on social media and I dmed her, like, honored. This is so cool, right? Being that my husband and I have been in media, especially my husband, over 20 years, it's not weird to know a quote unquote journalist, someone in the media. So I was like, oh, this is cool. Like, she seemed like a cool girl and I loved supporting her. And then she messaged me that she and a friend were coming down to orange county for lunch and asked me and Jen to lunch. Jen was somewhere. I was out doing errands and I said, sure, I can pop by for a little bit. And we had lunch.

[Natalie]

Do you regret having that lunch with Kiki?

[Katie Janela]

I do, I do. I do regret having lunch with Kiki. I think I idolized her a little bit. I loved supporting a woman in this social media, pop culture, Bravo reality TV space, and also a woman of color, and I loved that. And I think that when we sat down and she said everything is off the record. Everything is off the record. The record. She didn't hold true to that. And I did not tell her the thing that you're going to ask me if I told her, but we discussed a lot of things that lunch, mostly how I felt about being a housewife in my first season.

[Nick]

So you think she's lying?

[Katie Janela]

I think that we have different interpretations of the truth.

[Natalie]

I was about to say, do you feel like it's more of like, a miscommunication where it's like, you and correct me if I'm wrong, said she went to the hospital. And Kiki took that. Well, you only go to the hospital if, like, something's wrong.

[Katie Janela]

So, like, I did not bring up Gretchen.

[Natalie]

Oh.

[Katie Janela]

So there was no reason for me to bring up Gretchen. This was early fall that we had that lunch, and Gretchen didn't even let Jen or. I know. Well, I can't speak for Jen, but Gretchen didn't let me know she was even coming back until, like, the middle to end of December. So I'm not sure why I would have even brought Gretchen's name up. Gretchen was a very new friend. We had had a triple date, which I'm sure you guys have heard about now.

[Nick]

Mastros.

[Katie Janela]

Yes, Matt's here.

[Nick]

Everyone, Matt is here.

[Katie Janela]

He's gonna nod.

[Natalie]

He has duct tape over his mouth currently.

[Katie Janela]

I know.

[Nick]

And just as good looking in person.

[Natalie]

He is better. Yeah. Honestly, better.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Very handy.

[Katie Janela]

And that was the first dinner I'd ever had with Gretchen and Slade. So they were very new friends. So I'm not sure why I would have even brought Gretchen up. We were literally discussing me, so.

[Natalie]

And I guess it just. I mean, did you think that it would ever turn into what it has turned into?

[Katie Janela]

No, I. I was saying earlier that Jen and I talked on the phone at the beginning of the season before we started filming. We're like, we think this is going to happen and this is going to happen, and this story, none of that happened. It was so far from what we.

[Nick]

Thought would be, what were your expectations of being a housewife versus what the reality has been for you when you first, you know, signed the do dotted line, so to speak.

[Katie Janela]

I honestly thought I was going to become friends with them. Not necessarily all of them, but, you know, a good amount of them. And we would fight about petty things, about, like, I saw your dress at Neiman Marcus. And then we would get over it, because that's what I have watched. It has become a little bit more dark, I think. And I also was okay with talking about the custody of my kids and my ex husband and that tumultuous divorce, meeting Matt and all of those things, because I think a lot of women do go through that. That I just didn't foresee it being used as a weapon against me, that it was like, you're a bad person because of X, Y and Z. So I thought it was going to be like, let's talk about this. Let's bring light to it. Also being the first Asian American on Orange County, Also being the first Korean adoptee I think those are pretty cool things to share because so many people have commonalities with that.

[Nick]

So much in Bravo world, especially recently it was discussed in the Valley with Janet. It's been mentioned on your show with you being a fan of the franchise, which I mean, many of us are before we go on these shows. And I think now that these shows have been on, like Orange County, I mean, how long has it been on?

[Katie]

19 seasons.

[Nick]

19 seasons. 20 years. To. To find someone who's not a fan is almost.

[Katie]

Or who's never heard of the Housewives.

[Nick]

Franchise weirder to begin with.

[Katie Janela]

That's what I'm saying.

[Nick]

So I guess what is your opinion on it? Because as you know, I can see both sides. But do you feel being someone who watched the show or was some kind of fan, do you think that's been weaponized against you by your peers in a way that feels unfair?

[Katie Janela]

That's a good question. I watched Orange county in the very beginning, Very, very beginning. And then it got a little dark and I stopped watching. And then I was in talks with casting and I met Gina and I thought, you know, I should probably watch the last season. So it was on in the background. But I sat down to watch the reunion. I wanted to see the resolution of things. I've been a fan of New Jersey in the past, Beverly Hills. Right. But I wasn't a fan necessarily of this franchise. But tell me a woman ages 20 to 60 that hasn't heard of Housewives or Bravo or any type of reality TV like Housewives. If you have a phone and you have social media, it's on there. It's very hard to avoid. So even though I knew about Orange County, I wasn't necessarily watching every season, watching every episode. I wasn't necessarily a fan. I do think it can ruin it. I have heard about a lady on the Valley that is called a fan, and that's been to her detriment. I haven't watched it, so I can't comment on that. But.

[Nick]

And I get, you know, and even. Let's say you were. I guess my question is, would you be afraid to acknowledge that you were a fan for fear that it would be used against you? I mean, do you feel like, you know, some of the OGs, Heather and Tamra, do you think. Think they. Yeah. Like, use that against you? Where. Like, even if you were, it would be unsafe to acknowledge that, even though it shouldn't be necessarily something that's a crime?

[Katie Janela]

I think they would have used that against me, yes. I think that they Think, oh, you're a fan. You wanted to be famous. You wanted to get on tv. I don't know. I think that they do use that against women, for sure.

[Natalie]

Recently, you and Tamara have had some. Some back and forths on social media. Is there a path forward for you and Tamara?

[Katie Janela]

Yes, actually. She reached out probably towards the end of filming the season and we kind of had some talks and she's been in my corner. I'm very appreciative. And quick little thing. Speaking of all this, I hear you're friends with Shannon.

[Nick]

Is that okay?

[Katie Janela]

So. No, no, no. I'm just asking. I heard you guys are buddies.

[Natalie]

Yeah, we had her on the show.

[Nick]

I like to think I'm friends with.

[Katie Janela]

She's friends with the media. That's so weird.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Oh, there.

[Katie Janela]

Weird.

[Nick]

Good. Katie.

[Katie Janela]

That's weird. Did you guys have lunch ever or.

[Nick]

No, I have not. I've only met Shannon in this room. And I like to think that we're friends.

[Katie Janela]

Don't say that.

[Katie]

I do not claim.

[Katie Janela]

No, no, no, no, no, no. We are not friends.

[Nick]

Well, I. I will say, interesting enough.

[Natalie]

We'Ve had Gina on as well.

[Nick]

We have had Gina on Friends. Heather, Tamara.

[Katie Janela]

I saw Tamara's interview. It was great.

[Nick]

I don't know if Heather thinks we're friends.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

I don't know if she'd claim us. Fancy fan.

[Nick]

Well, because, I mean, truly. I mean, people's perception is of us or the show. If, for example, obviously, whatever you say here on in the mic, we're going to put it out there.

[Katie Janela]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, unless. Unless you were to tell us not. I mean, we always say, we're not here. We're entertainers. We're not. We're not. We're not journalists. I don't know when the quote, unquote journal. I don't see my. We don't spread rumors. If you were to tell us something offline, it's not for public consumption. Like, we don't. We don't do that. We don't even spread on like, like the blogger community. I'm uncomfortable. It seems like it's a part of the Bravo spear. And we talked about this last week when talking about this whole, you know, what makes a blogger, what doesn't make a blogger for us? Like, the anonymous pages, I find to be very problematic because there's just no accountability. For all we know, they could be housewives, you know, pretending to be other people. And again, rumors can be very destructive. You know, even if there's rumors that are like half true and half Not. And things like that. I think it's okay to have relationships in the media. Yes. You know, we've even had fun, I guess, at your expense when we're talking about, you know, you going to bloggers weddings and things like that. Did you. What was your expectation as someone who may have had some relationships with people in the Bravo world who consider themselves bloggers or were considered bloggers or somehow even adjacently connected to the community? You seem to have some friendships in this space. Then you became a housewife. Were you surprised by what seemed to be these unwritten rules by some of your peers about, like, who you could and couldn't be friends with?

[Katie Janela]

Yes, because half of my cast are quote unquote bloggers. So that means content creators, podcasters.

[Nick]

Is that why you consider a blogger?

[Katie Janela]

I don't use the word blogger. I feel like blogger is like MySpace. You know, that's what they coined it as. But I haven't used the word blogger since. Literally MySpace.

[Natalie]

Yeah. So here's my recipes, here's my. Right.

[Katie Janela]

I mean, I have. I had a blog ages ago about my children that I would like, let my parents read and my ex in laws read and stuff like that. But anyways, I also find it weird because my husband has been in media for over 20 years I've been in media. So being friends with quote, unquote bloggers is not weird for us. You know, we eloped with some people, some friends, and three of those people are quote unquote bloggers. They're journalists and actual ones, you know, I guess. So the guy that is helping me write my book right now is. Would be considered a journalist, a blogger. So it's not weird for me to have these relationships.

[Natalie]

I mean, Gina had a speed dial blogger, a guy that, to confirm. Yeah, to confirm, she had his number really quickly to call.

[Katie Janela]

Yeah. And I don't have one of the people they're talking about's number. Um, yeah, it. It was. It's not weird for me going back, should I have had those relationships? Maybe not. But the fact that I'm friendly with people in media is not weird in the space that my husband and I exist in.

[Nick]

Who do you think in your cast is being the biggest hypocrite when it comes to this conversation about relationships with people in the media? Bloggers.

[Katie Janela]

Well, I mean, it would be a toss up between Gina and Gretchen because when they had that sit down with Kiki, Gretchen said, oh, it's great to meet you. And Kiki was like, well, actually, we've met. We've talked on the phone, you know.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Katie Janela]

And it's Katie, why are you speed dialing him? And then I see pictures of Keke and Gina show up on social media and you know, she was very quick to reach out to the kiki and this other person that's involved, that's a journalist. So it's kind of a lot of hypocrisy actually.

[Nick]

Has your relationship with any of these people in media bloggers changed in. Because I'm asking. Because again, like I just said, you, you know, you don't know me or the show that well. We have certain, like, I guess, rules that we try to abide by. Again, we don't spread rumors or gossip. If, if, if we get done recording and you tell me something, something, I'm not going to repeat it. We've heard, we've heard some. We don't even say often. We just like, don't, you know. But that being said, now that you're a housewife, I imagine some of the people you were friends with who maybe don't abide by certain rules that we have for ourselves where they, they will spread rumors. They maybe have anonymous blogger accounts. Have you changed your relationship with any of these people in the media since becoming a housewife given, like how they operate and move in their world that maybe didn't align with you?

[Katie Janela]

Yes. I will say two of the people that I became friendly with were friends of friends. They happen to do this. So that didn't feel as weird to me. But I have taken kind of like a step back. I don't trust anybody. I do feel used. But I also made some rookie mistakes that I shouldn't have made. Concerning the quote unquote bloggers, I am more careful.

[Katie]

Speaking of friendship. So like, you went into the season seemingly closest to Jen. Has it been hard watching her not take accountability for what she knew about the dinner with Gretchen? And where do you guys stand today?

[Katie Janela]

It is really hurtful because the reason you saw me go, Jen, like, come on. Is because she was there and she could have backed me up.

[Natalie]

Yeah.

[Katie Janela]

And given me some accountability with these ladies. And that hurt. I mean, I left that Persian New Year gutted. I mean, I, I was seriously depressed. For days I laid in bed and cried. And then thereafter, weeks after, anytime anyone would mention her name, I would just burst out in tears. And so it, it hurts because I loved her. I invested so much time in her. Our kids became friends. We hung out with our significant others together. She came to my house all the time. So it didn't Feel great. No. And as of now, we do not. We do not speak.

[Katie]

She used what's going on with you? To kind of get in with them. Cause she was on the outs with everybody last season.

[Katie Janela]

I don't know if it' that, but I feel like she saw me going down and she didn't want to go down with me. Right.

[Natalie]

Hold the line. Why did Slade want you to hold the line? And, like, what does that mean?

[Katie Janela]

I wish I knew really what the real story was with that. All I know is when we were in New Orleans and all of that came out, I was getting ready for dinner. I had no idea it came out. I get call from my husband. Hey, Slade called me. He sent me a 901. In one text, he said that you might have sealed your fate. He's on the other line with somebody in production, Alex Vaskin. I can't anyways. And so Alex. Yeah, so I didn't say that.

[Natalie]

You did on the show as well.

[Katie Janela]

And you know, you have to hold the line for Gretchen. Slade said you, you know, back her up. Say she never said it because we've already dealt with this with Bravo, he said, and Katie could get in a lot of trouble. So me being very new to my second season was like, I don't want to get any trouble. You know, this scares me. So I'm going to do that. You know, I'm going to back up my friend, because if we're hearing from a friend that I have to do this, that's what I'm going to do. And that's what I did. And now looking back, why didn't I just say, actually, you know, you did say that. I should have, but in the moment, I was literally protecting somebody I thought was my friend.

[Natalie]

I mean, is it frustrating watching this back and seeing Gretchen lie in real time about the hospital visit? I mean, we watch her in the car with Tamara. We watch her in her ITM saying she didn't. We watch her saying she's never taken a polygraph test. And then we see the footage of.

[Katie Janela]

Her, and it was the same.

[Natalie]

The same guy from years ago taking out the polygraph test. So, I mean, how does it feel to watch all of these? Just like her lying, lying and lying.

[Katie Janela]

I giggle a little bit because she said it actually twice to Tamara.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah.

[Katie Janela]

That she went to the hospital. And then I heard her in interview say, I misspoke. It's not true. I. I misspoke. That's not something you really misspeak about. You know, you say like, oh, I Want to get the dark brown or the light brown? That's a. That's misspeaking, right?

[Natalie]

It's either you did or you didn't.

[Katie Janela]

Go to the hospital. It's not misspeaking. I don't think so. I do kind of giggle a little bit.

[Katie]

Especially when it started with I was so sick I had to go to the hospital.

[Natalie]

Like, it was like, were you frustrated that Tamara, knowing that she knew Gretchen had told her she went to the hospital? And then with the polygraph results, her saying she didn't, were you frustrated that Tamara didn't stick up for you in that moment and say like, wait a minute, you just told me something different.

[Katie Janela]

I mean, if it was right now, I'd be frustrated because we have a better relationship. But at that moment, she didn't trust me.

[Natalie]

Gotcha.

[Katie Janela]

You know, but Shannon, you could see Shannon look at her like, wait a second. You know, Shannon clocked it right away, I think, I don't think she said anything because she kind of liked the pile on me. But they both kind of saw it, you know, now we've all seen it.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah.

[Nick]

What's your take on the bloggers calling out Emily and Gina for dominant dominating the group?

[Katie Janela]

Give me a for instance. I know what you're talking about.

[Emily]

I mean, that was my question in general because, I mean, I'm team you. But like I said, as someone who like, I mean, I consume the blogs and like I just. My take too as well is like, I've loved Gina and Emily, but like it just after that night, after the lie detector, it seemed like, like they left you out to dry. Like it was almost a setup in my opinion. And just I think the blogs, in my opinion, are calling them out for it. They are like noticing that it was kind of like a setup and that it was. They just pile up.

[Katie Janela]

It definitely felt like a pile in. And I thought it was a setup. I went home that it was rigged. Yes. And I went home, googled this guy. He came up, picture came up. My 21 year old daughter was like, oh, I've seen him. I saw him on Jake Paul. I'm like, that's interesting.

[Nick]

Yeah. There's a, there's allegations, allegedly that there's a pay for play correct situation.

[Katie Janela]

You can look at a website that might belong to him, allegedly, and see that there's the truth.

[Nick]

And there's like, how much do you want the truth to tell?

[Katie Janela]

There's a B and yes. And I thought it was a setup in my mind. All right. And then the episode Came out, and I see Gina saying, don't worry. We have a plan. And then telling Tamara, don't worry, we got her before.

[Nick]

You overheard this?

[Katie Janela]

No, I watched it. When I watched it, and I was like, I was right. You know, it all felt. Even when I walked in the door, the air felt thick. It felt weird. And that's why you see me get really.

[Nick]

Now you look nervous.

[Katie Janela]

Oh, my God. Cause we had just come back from New Orleans, and I know they all hated me. I had no friends in that room. And even Jen, I saw her not stick up for me in New Orleans. So I was like, this is. This feels horrible. So I started to get really sick in the restroom, and then she announced, we're going to do a polygraph. I was like, oh, great. Okay, let's do it.

[Nick]

You were right about Heather. I definitely think Heather called the.

[Katie Janela]

Well, I know I was right. I didn't need a polygraph to tell me that. Okay. My sources.

[Nick]

Was it frustrating for you, regardless of whether the polygraph was real or not, that despite, you know, Heather proven to be a liar in this environment, they just brushed right past that.

[Katie Janela]

They brushed right past everybody's. They brushed past Tamara's question about autism being on the spectrum. We had, like, a quick second about that, and then brush past it. We brushed past Jen saying she was uneasy about marrying Ryan. And then me, it was like, get out. You need to go. And I was kind of like, okay, I kind of want to go.

[Nick]

Yeah. They did brush past some big confessions.

[Katie]

Yep.

[Katie Janela]

But did you notice the only three people that passed with flying colors? Emily, Gina, and Gretchen.

[Natalie]

Going to the comments that Gina made about the Asian designers? Yes. Did it raise red flags with you or concern you that her reaction to Kiki mo' Nique, telling her that you had brought this up, was more angry that you would accuse her of being racist on a national platform versus. Oh, no. I made my friend feel a certain way.

[Katie Janela]

I felt like she got caught in the moment with her pants down a little bit. And I just want to clarify that when I was cast, when they offered me the spot, that was my first thought is because of 2020 and a lot of things that have happened in the Asian realm, I wanted to highlight Asian brands, Asian people, that kind of thing. Right. I didn't say I was gonna wear Asian brands exclusively. Like, does she want my bra and underwear to be made in Korea? I don't know. But, like, I just wanted to highlight some really cool brands that maybe people.

[Nick]

Haven'T heard of for her to stick her Business in.

[Katie Janela]

Right. So. So somebody telling me how Asian I need to be feels weird because I am learning my own Asian culture on my own. I am an adoptee from Korea. My daughter is helping me with that. I have a really dear friend who's also adopted from Korea, and we share stories. I'm not gonna be told how Asian I need to be. That's for me only.

[Nick]

Yeah. It makes a lot of sense that it's something that you would like to at times prioritize and consider and go out of your way to make an attempt, but it doesn't.

[Katie Janela]

And also feel comfortable with that. That pace.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Katie Janela]

Okay. Growing up in Georgia, in an all white community, if I want to take a slower pace, learning that, that's my choice.

[Natalie]

But I guess, like, yeah, have. Did. Has she ever apologized for making you feel that way?

[Katie Janela]

No, I have gotten zero apologies for anything. Well, no, no, no. That's a lie. I won't lie. I have gotten one apology, and it was a chat GPT message because my daughter put it in, like, this AI detector. And it was AI who sent you that? Gretchen. Because I was like, wow, this is really well written. And it says warm regards.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

And I was like, that's.

[Katie Janela]

Wow. I know who it's. I know who it's from. It's from your number, girlfriend.

[Natalie]

You're like, and it's summer and it's hot.

[Katie Janela]

Warm regards. I was like, that's interesting. It's the morning I'm doing press in New York. So it was warm regards. Oh, that was nice.

[Natalie]

And what was the chat GPT apologizing to you for?

[Katie Janela]

It was for the inappropriate video that her and Jen put out.

[Natalie]

Oh, right.

[Katie Janela]

So six days later, she sent me a warm regards message.

[Natalie]

So after she got enough backlash to make her feel like she needed to.

[Katie Janela]

Yes.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Cover her tracks.

[Katie Janela]

Okay.

[Natalie]

But Gina has never once.

[Katie Janela]

No, no.

[Natalie]

And Jen didn't apologize to you for that?

[Nick]

No, no.

[Katie Janela]

But I really. I will say Jen posted it, but it was Gretchen in the video that I felt was being inappropriate.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Katie]

Now, from the end of this last episode, when you're leaving, are you essentially being put on pause at this moment?

[Katie Janela]

I think you'll have to wait and see what happens.

[Katie]

Wait and see. Okay.

[Nick]

But to that end, why weren't you invited? I know you mentioned in recent interviews that you suggested that production was protecting you, which was really just frustrating as a fan to hear, because it's like.

[Katie Janela]

I heard you say that I don't.

[Nick]

Care if they're getting along or not getting along. It's Just like. Just like this. You guys made this the drama. So why are we not allowing.

[Natalie]

Why are you taking her?

[Katie Janela]

Right?

[Nick]

We are less interested in watching.

[Katie Janela]

We are a show of that. I will say to your point. And also, I asked to show up. I asked production, can I just show up? Can I just show up? Tell me where they're staying. I'll just show up. And they said, no, it's probably not a good idea. So I didn't.

[Nick]

Then they didn't give you a why?

[Katie Janela]

No.

[Nick]

What. What do you think is the reason? Do you think the women got together and said she can't come? Do you think they tried to hold a hard line with production and demand.

[Katie Janela]

You not invited that they have that kind of power? I do think that production did see it was just a pile on and a constant me story. And so they were like, you know what, Kitty, it's probably not a good idea for you to be there. It's just gonna be about you.

[Nick]

So why do you think all these women who without you aren't the closest group? You know, there's a lot of conflict within these women. Why do you think they have band together to target you in the way that they have?

[Katie Janela]

If I were to guess, it's because last year I maybe made. I embarrassed them a little bit with things that they. They may have lied about or skewed. And so this was their way of getting back at me because the nanny reaching out to me, my daughter going on that podcast to tell her side of the story that she didn't get to tell on a reunion stage, embarrassed Emily. You know, me calling out Heather about paparazzi embarrassed her. So I think that this was the way to like, get at me.

[Nick]

What regrets, if any, do you have from season one? What would you have done differently if you could?

[Katie Janela]

You know, at the end of season one, I was regretful of a few things, but now I'm not. Just like this season, I wish I would stick up for myself more, you know, be a little bit more vocal, but that this is who I am. I am very much in person, the same as I am filming. I'm very much the same person. So although I'm like, damn it, I should have said this, I should have. You know, that's who I am. I do need to get more confident in standing up for myself. But in those moments, I was very authentic and very real. So although I regret not being a little more vocal, I can't. I don't really regret anything from.

[Natalie]

Was it shocking to hear Gene on watch what happens live. Say that Heather was the one who did all the research on your past.

[Katie Janela]

Not really, no. I mean, the way that they came at me, Emily and Heather, I mean, you could. You can put two and two together. You knew it was one of them.

[Katie]

Do you think that the women are banding together to essentially get you to leave the show?

[Katie Janela]

That's what it feels like.

[Katie]

Will you not do that, please?

[Nick]

I'll be very. I'll be very.

[Katie Janela]

If you can come out as my friend, I will.

[Nick]

To that point. Are you. You considering regardless of what these women want or what Bravo wants, are you considering not coming back because who wants to show up to work not having friends?

[Katie Janela]

I have not considered that.

[Nick]

Okay. Period.

[Natalie]

She said I'm a bad bitch.

[Katie Janela]

I think I deserve a fair chance 100%. I think I deserve for people to get to know me. I appreciate you sitting down with me because you are getting to know me a little bit more. This is more than I was afforded in two seasons.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Natalie]

I think Nick even said when we talked about all of this, you know, when it was all kind of out in the headlines and whatnot, just that like, if this is how. If you were to this be your last season, it's like, how. How would anyone want to join this show if this is how they're treated? If they're. If they're chewed up and then spit out and then there's just like, okay, onto the next one. Who else can? It's like, how. What friend? Like, what show who would.

[Katie Janela]

Never thought about it, like, that way. Wow.

[Nick]

Yeah. Do you think Bravo has a rookie hazing problem?

[Katie Janela]

I don't think that's a Bravo. I think that's a woman issue.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Natalie]

Women do be hating women.

[Katie Janela]

I know. And I, you know, I've said this, like, why couldn't me surviving my first marriage be something we talk about and uplift each other about? Why does it have to be something that is going to follow me with these people, that I'm a bad mother? You know, I don't think of it that way, and I wouldn't think of it even if I hadn't gone through it. If you told me that right, I wouldn't be like, oh, you must be a horrible person.

[Katie]

Person.

[Katie Janela]

But I think that they grasp onto anything to make me look that way.

[Nick]

You obviously have been made to seem like a liar on this show from the rest of your peers, and I appreciate you sharing your side of the story. Have you ever told a lie?

[Katie Janela]

Of course I have. Haven't you?

[Nick]

Sure. But Specifically on this show. And I only ask because I empathize, because, like, a lot of your peers are liars on the show, have been caught in lies. And. And I could try to put myself in your shoes and be like, well, I mean, if they're fucking lying, why do I owe you the truth?

[Katie Janela]

I lied when I protected Gretchen.

[Nick]

Remind me what the lie was.

[Katie Janela]

I lied when I said, Gretchen. You've never said that before. I don't know what they're talking about. That was a lie. Anything else? Any other burning questions?

[Katie]

Okay, I'm just like. I also feel like. Do you kind of feel like you're also being used as, like, a sacrificial lamb? Cause I feel like there's a lot of storylines that are, like a lot of characters on your show that don't really have. Have a storyline outside of you.

[Katie Janela]

I. I think, yes. I think it's also easy to pick on you. So the heat's off of me.

[Katie]

Right, right. Reflecting.

[Katie Janela]

So, yes. And I am not good at that.

[Nick]

What is your opinion on recording people, like, the conflict between you and Shannon? I think she's recorded other people in the past.

[Katie Janela]

Twice. Three times, actually.

[Nick]

I mean, I'm not. Shannon, I love you.

[Katie Janela]

Oh, yeah, your friend. Don't talk about your friend.

[Nick]

Every time I have someone on that.

[Katie Janela]

Shannon doesn't like, you're going to get a call. She listens to everything.

[Nick]

You're going to get a call, Shannon, I love you.

[Katie Janela]

You can't say that after the fact.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah, that's.

[Natalie]

No offense, but.

[Nick]

No offense.

[Natalie]

No team, but yeah.

[Nick]

I mean, like, what are, what are the, the, the, the rules and from what you understand them to be, and what do you think they should be?

[Katie Janela]

Based on California law, if you were to come into a public space, you don't expect privacy with your phone on speaker. In a public space, when there's 20 plus people in the room, social media, cameras, executives, you kind of figure somebody's going to hear your conversation. Should I have shared that I recorded Shannon with Jen and Alexis? No, I should not have. I should have only sent it to Matt for Matt to hear the lore and have been done with it, and I regret that, but I did and that's it.

[Nick]

Do you think it's a path forward for you and Shannon?

[Katie Janela]

I hope so because we had a lot of fun. Shannon is a really good time, but I don't know, she is really holding on to this.

[Natalie]

Was that another frustrating moment with Jen when she said she had never seen the video, heard the video, knew nothing about the Video.

[Katie Janela]

She's never heard the audio recording or seen it, but it was frustrating for her to not back me up in that moment.

[Nick]

Yeah, Reunion. What do you have. You. You haven't recorded his film?

[Katie Janela]

No.

[Nick]

Next month, what hill will you die on? And are there any relationships over others that you're. You hope to mend at the reunion?

[Katie Janela]

I will die on the hill that I didn't tell Keke. And I don't know the answer to your second part of that question. I'm waiting to see how it goes. I think I'm owed some apologies.

[Natalie]

Are you aware of anything that happened in on this cast trip that you.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Did not go on?

[Natalie]

Yes, you are.

[Nick]

Do you feel like any of the women regretted not having you there? Because. Because when one target leaves, another usually pops up. And while, you know, all the attention was going to you and they still gotta make a TV show, I did.

[Katie Janela]

Say to Jen, in the scene that will air tomorrow night when we're meeting for coffee, I did say, you know, if I'm gone, you're next.

[Nick]

Ooh.

[Katie Janela]

Because that's how it works.

[Nick]

Are you good at seeing the future?

[Katie Janela]

I feel like I am. Maybe I'm clairvoyant. What was the first part of the question you asked? Asked me. It was layered. He does that.

[Nick]

I did that.

[Katie Janela]

I can't remember Hill.

[Natalie]

You'll die on hill.

[Katie Janela]

No, I answered that. I forget.

[Nick]

But, well, I guess it's more like, yeah, who. Who. Who's going to be the most regretful that you weren't on that trip?

[Katie Janela]

Oh, that's right. Tamara has told me that one of the biggest mistakes is that I wasn't filming for that trip.

[Nick]

That she regret. Wishes you were.

[Katie Janela]

I don't. I'm just gonna say that it was. I. I wish I could have gone on that trip, but maybe it was best I didn't.

[Nick]

Are you feeling more confident or more scared going into the reunion? Both.

[Katie Janela]

The reunion is not something that you go into. You're like, yeah, I can. I cuss. Yeah, Yeah, I fucking got this. You know, that's not something you go into doing. You can feel a little confident, but also, you never know. Like, last year, I felt a little confident, and then they hit me with a semi about my custody. So you, you know, you're not really excited to do this.

[Natalie]

It is shocking that they feel like they have any legs to stand on after they did that to you at that reunion.

[Katie Janela]

I feel like me telling the nanny, I can't talk to you, but my daughter went on this podcast, and you Weaponizing my custody is not the same thing.

[Cecilia Philhoy]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Did Heather ever apologize? She never really.

[Katie Janela]

She did in the moment because she saw it got bad. She said, I'm so sorry you went through that. I can't imagine off camera, though. And I was like, okay, thank you. And I was just trying not to cry. And the amazing person that does my hair, who's here, who was also there at that moment, was, like, glaring, like, what are you doing here right now? He was like, get away from her.

[Nick]

Any final thoughts before we send you on your way?

[Katie Janela]

No. Thanks for having me.

[Natalie]

You're not that bad. Not that bad.

[Katie Janela]

And I appreciate that, Nick.

[Natalie]

Well, it was so great to. Obviously, we only see so much on this show, so it was really great to sit next to you and hear more from your actual voice of what's been going on. And you, honestly, you seem like a great mother. You seem like a great wife. You are a great housewife. So I really hope that you continue.

[Nick]

I will be very upset if you're not back next season.

[Katie Janela]

Tell your friend.

[Natalie]

Tell your friend.

[Nick]

Noted. Katie, thank you very much for coming. I hope you come back.

[Katie Janela]

We may or may not be friends now. Maybe I will.

[Nick]

Well, regardless of what happens with you next season, we would, you know, if. If you're not brought back, we'll have you back.

[Katie Janela]

Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Nick]

I promise you that. Thank you guys for listening. We're can. We're. Congratulations, people.

[Katie Janela]

Follow you, Katie. Janella.

[Nick]

Okay, go ahead and follow Katie. Subscribe. Tell your friends about our show. If you haven't listened to the Dale and Cat episode from Going Deeper yesterday, be sure to check that out. Lots of great episodes to listen to if you haven't listened to all of them. We appreciate all of you. We'll see you back on Monday. Don't forget to send your ass Nick questions, by the way, in case you have some relationship trauma in your life or problems that you want resolved, we're always here for you. Asknick@thev files.com I think is the email address. Okay, check it out. All right, bye. We'll see you Monday.

[Natalie]

Oh, what you eating?

[Nick]

The new banana split cookie from AM pm. All freshly baked with real butter with banana, chocolate and strawberry flavors.

[Natalie]

That sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?

[Nick]

I'm sorry, but no. But you can't split the banana split.

[Natalie]

Not even a little.

[Nick]

Not even a crumb.

[Natalie]

What if.

[Nick]

No, please. Mine when it's too legit to split.

[Natalie]

That's cravinience.

[Nick]

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