E999 Ask Nick - Cheating Parents

Summary

The Viall Files – Episode E999: Ask Nick – Cheating Parents

Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Nick Viall
Guests/Callers: Natalie Joy, Blair, Sydney, Margaret

Episode Overview

In this "Ask Nick" episode, Nick Viall and co-hosts dive into relationship dilemmas brought forward by listeners. From questioning longtime "friends with benefits" to navigating commitment issues and unpacking the impact of parental infidelity and secrets, Nick offers blunt, practical advice with his characteristic empathy and humor. This week centers on how complicated family backgrounds, trust issues, and communication struggles shape our ability to form and sustain healthy romantic relationships.

---

Caller 1: Blair – Should I Confess My Feelings to a 15-Year “Buddy”?

Segment start: [01:01]

Summary

Blair, 31, has had an on-and-off emotional and physical relationship with a friend for 15 years. Both have pursued other relationships but keep finding their way back to each other. Blair wonders if she should finally confess her feelings and ask for a real shot at a relationship.

Key Discussion Points

• History & Pattern:
  Blair and her friend have never sustained a relationship but keep reconnecting after breakups. She revealed having told him about her crush a few years back, but it "didn’t count” and wasn’t direct.

• His Side:
  He shares nostalgia-laden compliments, e.g. "When I see you, it feels like time folds in on itself... it just feels natural and normal" ([06:26]), but frames things in the past or as casual.

• Physical Chemistry vs. Relationship Potential:
  Blair is sure of his attraction, but feels intimidated and has trouble being truly vulnerable.

• Nick’s Take:
  Nick urges Blair to be assertive and direct—no more hints or "I have a crush" ambiguity:

  "You have to be direct...it's not about nostalgia. I don't think it's that special what he said to you...he doesn't see you as an option to have a relationship with. He sees you as the girl he has been sleeping with..." ([09:30])

• Strategy for Change:
  Nick explains she must challenge the dynamic:

  "You have to act like he's missing out...You almost have to give him the pitch...Women want to do that even less than men—'I don't want to chase'—but this is a different scenario. You both have mental barriers...I think your pitch is: 'I think we should date. I really care about you. We've known each other our entire adult lives. We always find our way back to each other...'" ([11:18])

• Encouragement for Confidence:
  Nick notes that confidence and boldness are key—maybe even a little edge:

  "At times, men really respond to very confident, aggressive women who know what they want." ([11:57])

  And when things get sentimental:

  "Why does he think he's in a position, being a guy you have slept with your entire adult life off and on, that your future husband would be okay with that?" ([14:50])

• Closure on Timing and Approach:
  Nick recommends an in-person, no-BS conversation, and to prepare for possible rejection:

  "Make your pitch once and leave it at that...If he gives you the 'I don’t know', just be like, 'Well, I think you’re an idiot.' A little childish name-calling can go a long way with men." ([18:30])

• On Self-Respect & Future:
  Nick reminds Blair she's 31 and doesn't want to be casually hooking up with the same guy into her thirties if it isn't going anywhere:

  "If I'm still f***ing this guy at 35...things have gone wrong and I've made decisions not in my best interest." ([22:40])

Notable Quotes

• Nick: "It really is about you being confident in how you feel and that he's blind if he doesn't see what you see." ([27:37])
• Blair: "I will rehearse and use confidence and slight bitchiness. Nothing too crazy, but a little bit." ([28:11])

---

Caller 2: Sydney – "I Can't Commit to My Non-Boyfriend Boyfriend Because of His Haircut"

Segment start: [31:53]

Summary

Sydney, 24, has been seeing a guy for five months. Their relationship is undefined, primarily due to Sydney's own reservations—partly over his mullet haircut, but also because she's never been in a serious relationship. She wonders whether she should make things official.

Key Discussion Points

• Their Dynamic:
  Started casual, progressed to regular hangouts, trips, meeting friends, and everyday texting—a relationship in all but name.

• Sydney's Internal Battle:
  Worries about missing out on fun, not having enough experience, or introducing him to family with a "mullet story"—“I care about him, but I'm afraid to go all-in.”

• Nick’s Take:
  Nick pokes fun at the superficial concern over his haircut, but challenges Sydney to get real:

  "It's more of an ick that he's a 30-year-old with two roommates than that he has a mullet." ([34:53])

• Labels vs. Intimacy:
  Nick identifies the paradox of dating culture fearing commitment, but notes intimacy and time spent matter more than semantics:

  "After five months...hopefully you've been building a rapport and a comfort level that you didn't have in the first couple weeks of hooking up." ([39:51])

• Learn by Doing:
  Nick advises embracing risk and experience:

  “If you like him, you should try! You can always break up…Even if he f***s you up emotionally and breaks your heart in two years, it might be worth it. That’s a rite of passage.” ([49:12])

• Authenticity in Relationships:
  Nick warns against “professional casual daters” who never learn how to make compromises and only want self-serving connections.

• How to Define It:
  Nick suggests Sydney just declare her intentions instead of asking permission:

  "Honestly, with what I'm hearing, it would make a lot of sense for you...to just be like, by the way, I started telling people you’re my boyfriend and we’re together." ([54:45])

• On Relationship Balance:
  Sydney voices worry about giving up career, friends, or independence; Nick counters:

  “You don’t have to be the couple that is inseparable…you can strike a balance and you just have to talk about expectations.” ([57:42])

• Grow Up and Don't Overthink:
  Nick prods Sydney to mature:

  “This is me, in the nicest possible way, saying: you need to grow up a little bit. And so does he.” ([61:57])

Notable Quotes

• Sydney: "I feel like I gotta put the key into ignition a little bit." ([65:52])
• Nick: "If he rejects your request to define this relationship, then you really need to point out, well, then you're an idiot. You're calling me babe. But fine. You definitely need to shut it down, though." ([64:15])
• Nick: “You can have a boyfriend, you can break up… I would rather be 26 with an ex-boyfriend and that lived experience…” ([66:37])

---

Caller 3: Margaret – Did My Cheating, Closeted Dad Ruin My Trust?

Segment start: [73:20]

Summary

Margaret, 26, details finding out as a teen that her father was having affairs with men and was secretly gay, but never explicitly came out. Her parents’ marriage ended, her dad remains reticent about his sexuality, and Margaret is left fearing deep relationships and potential betrayal.

Key Discussion Points

• Family Backstory:
  Her father was a strict, resentful presence; her mother was primary caretaker. After discovering evidence and confronting both parents, the family remained emotionally closed-off ("my family doesn’t like to talk about things").

• Dad Never Came Out:
  Margaret is frustrated by her father’s lack of vulnerability and accountability:

  “He’s never really taken accountability, never admitted anything…multiple opportunities to be truthful to me.” ([77:35])

• Complex Feelings:
  Margaret expresses that it’s not the homosexuality, but the secrecy, denial, and years of emotional distance that left scars.

• Nick’s Guidance:
  Nick draws a clear line between her dad’s struggle with sexual identity and his failings as a partner/parent—and the need for immense grace for someone coming out, especially from that generation:

  "When you, like, send evidence... or go to your dad and be like, I know. Are you going to take accountability? That’s like... are you going to take accountability for being gay? ... He's not hearing, 'Hey dad, I love you no matter what.' ...but 'You owe me the truth.'" ([80:59]–[86:12])

• On Letting Go:
  Nick repeatedly encourages Margaret to differentiate between wanting to be right/validated and actually cultivating happiness or closeness:

  “...being close with your dad might require you to accept certain things and give yourself whatever closure you need without necessarily getting it from your dad.” ([90:16]) "Sometimes you have to let shit go, you know, like, sometimes you have to accept that people feel differently than you... Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? And you have a lot of 'I want to be right' energy." ([106:32])

• Relationships & Trigger Points:
  Margaret worries her history makes her “hypervigilant” about betrayal in relationships and sometimes “looks for connection as to why I’m not sure.” She notices a pattern where she sets high expectations for how partners should support her, and is triggered when they fall short.

• Real-Life Example:
  A car break-in left her scared and needing comfort; her boyfriend didn’t rise to the moment, though he later apologized. Nick validates her communication but encourages patience and not pathologizing partners over normal human flaws:

  "Having our partners magically just do the right thing every time...is great, but kind of unrealistic. ...It’s the most we can hope for.” ([100:52])

• Fear of Having Children / Commitment:
  Margaret is unsure if she wants a family, scared of repeating her mother’s pain or enduring betrayal.

  “If having kids is something you think about, don’t make that decision out of fear.” ([116:28])

Notable Quotes

• Nick: "Our parents can be examples of who we want to be or who we don’t want to be. And in almost everyone’s case, they play a bit of both." ([93:00])
• Margaret: “I think I’m just trying to be the opposite of [my dad]. And it’s really hard when I’m surrounded by it all the time.” ([92:45])
• Nick: “Try not to add unnecessary pressure on yourself or the relationship or him if it doesn’t need to...sometimes you have to ask: Is this important for me to address, or do I just want to be right?” ([113:05])

---

Episode Highlights & Memorable Moments

• Nick’s Relationship Realism:
  Nick’s approach is consistently practical, bordering on blunt: “You can always break up. There’s no guarantees.”
• Cultural Shift on Male Assertiveness:
  Nick (re: Sydney’s guy): “Men under 35 don’t know how to be assertive without being pricks—or else are so beta, they’re scared to man up. Women want a guy who says, 'No, I don’t want you being with anyone else.'” ([38:41])
• Parent as Example or Warning:
  “Our parents are always examples—of who we want to be or don’t want to be… They can be both.” ([93:00])

---

Timestamps

• [01:01] – Blair: The 15-year “buddy” saga
• [09:30] – Nick on what it takes to change a longterm dynamic
• [14:50] – On letting go of nostalgia as the only glue
• [18:30] – The importance of confident confrontation
• [22:40] – Blair's self-respect and motivation to move on
• [31:53] – Sydney on commitment aversion and the mullet ick
• [39:51] – Building rapport/fear of labels (Nick)
• [49:12] – Rite of passage: heartbreak and learning
• [54:45] – How to define the relationship correctly
• [57:42] – Balancing career, friends, and relationship
• [61:57] – “Grow up a little bit”—Nick to Sydney
• [73:20] – Margaret: Parental cheating, secrets, trust issues
• [80:59] – Nick on empathy for closeted parents
• [90:16] – How closure sometimes can only come from yourself
• [100:52] – Accepting imperfections in relationships
• [106:32] – On being right vs. being happy
• [116:28] – Parenting decisions from fear vs. hope

---

Final Thoughts

Nick Viall’s advice hinges on radical self-honesty and assertive communication—whether you’re pitching a relationship upgrade after years of ambiguity, facing your own ambivalence about commitment, or learning to let go of family-of-origin trauma. His blend of empathy and directness draws a firm line between understandable anxieties and self-sabotage, urging listeners not to let perfection, fear, or a need to be right keep them from happiness, growth, or love.

For further updates or to follow up with Nick, listeners are always encouraged to send their outcomes and feedback to the show!

Transcript

[Nick]

The baffles is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you can save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

A Mochi moment from Mark, who writes, I just want to thank you for making GLP1s affordable. What would have been over $1,000 a month is just 99amonth with mochi. Money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy we three months in and I have smaller jeans and a bigger wallet. You're the best. Thanks, Mark. I'm Mayra Amit, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com.

[Nick]

Mark is a Mochi member compensated for his story?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

You're crazy.

[Nick]

How's it going?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Hi. It's going well. My name is Blair. I'm 31 and I have feelings for my buddy of 15 years.

[Nick]

Oh boy. 15 years.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yes.

[Nick]

How long have you had feelings?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Definitely since the beginning. I was a sophomore in high school when we first met and he was a senior. And I mean I definitely just had a really big crush on him from the beginning. And that is how I guess I lost my virginity to him. And it was always very casual from the start, but. And I guess when I say feelings, it was like a crush, like an infatuation.

[Nick]

Have you dated other people in between?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yes. Yes.

[Nick]

Oh, okay.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

I've had two serious long term, three year relationships in between and then a variety of shorter ones.

[Nick]

And then. Are you always going back to him in between type of thing?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yes.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah. And it's kind of. He's in the same boat. It's like whenever he goes through a breakup, he'll reach out to me and then we'll go on a date or meet up and have like a nice 12 hours together, maybe 24 hours. And then we go our separate ways. And then. Yeah, and then we, I guess time passes and we start dating other people.

[Nick]

Have you ever told them that you have feelings?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah, the last time I guess I did. And maybe I did in high school. I don't remember. It was so long ago. Obviously.

[Nick]

Yeah, high school doesn't count. Have you told them recently? Have you? Like in the past, I don't know, three years, two years, five years?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah, yeah. Let's say not the past two or three. But in the past five. Yes. So I was moving across the country about four years ago and then we were both in the same city. I was getting ready to move. He was like, we should see each other before you leave. And we were both single, obviously, so we kind of went on a string of dates. It was our most number of consistent times that we would see each other, probably since high school. And it started in August before I left, and then I came back in October, and we saw each other then. And then November, and we saw each other then. And I think in November, I said, I have a crush on you. And he said, you just moved. You just moved across the country. You should experience what it's like in your new city. That's the extent of me saying how I feel. I guess I just assumed he knows, but I guess maybe. Why would he? I don't know. I mean, it's been 15 years, so wouldn't you think?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

But I don't know.

[Nick]

He's your age. You went to school with him? Oh, no, he was. He's a year. He's older than you.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

He's 33.

[Nick]

Okay. And what's his relationship status? Like, what do you know about his dating life?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

So back in high school, he always.

[Nick]

Said, I care less about high school. I care about, like, more about the past.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Like, I could give you the full history.

[Nick]

No, I just. His adult life, you know? Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

I guess I only bring up high school just because back then he was like, I don't want a relationship. And then once he got to college, he started to have relationships. And since then, I think he's had one longer term. One that was maybe a year or two or. Actually, no, in college he had one for probably a year or two.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

And then they broke up, but they're still friends. I think it was like an amicable breakup. And then there was another woman that I think he dated from maybe like 2019 to 2000. 20ish. But I think it was pretty serious. And he definitely got his heart broken by her. And then since then, he's had what sounds like shorts.

[Nick]

What did the. What did the girl who broke his heart look like?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Looks wise. I think I would describe her as, like, maybe like Middle Eastern or, like Indian looking.

[Nick]

Okay. I guess my question is, you know, men are visual. Do you feel like. Well, what's the vibe you feel like you're getting from him in terms of how he sees you?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Well, he says stuff like. So we saw each other recently, this summer, and it was our first time seeing each other in four years since I had moved. Right after I moved, actually, I kind of found myself in A serious relationship. I dated my ex for over three years, and then we broke up this summer right at the end of May, basically. I saw. It's so funny. I'm, like, worried he'll know who I'm talking about, but whatever. I saw on his Instagram story that he was going to be in London, and I was also in Europe and had a layover in London. So I made a comment saying, oh, man, it would have been great to see you. I'm gonna have a layover in London. But not enough time to leave the airport. And he. So then we started talking a little bit back and forth, and it came out that I just went through a breakup and that I was traveling afterwards. And he also just went through a breakup, also while I was. He was inspired to travel. And then he was like, well, if you want to extend your trip, you should. But at that point, I couldn't. I had too many commitments to come back to. The flights are expensive. But I looked into it. I really looked into it. I got home, and I actually went back to the home city that's close to where I grew up and where he's living. I was visiting friends and family, and we met up.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

So it was our first time seeing each other in four years. And he basically says stuff like, when I see you, it feels like time folds in on itself. I feel like I'm 17 again. I feel like I'm 21 again. It's like, every time, it just feels natural and normal. And this was after we hook up. So I know he's not saying it just to hook up with me, but he says stuff like, you're my favorite person to do this with. I don't do this with anyone else.

[Nick]

What is doing this?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Like, have sex, hook up with.

[Nick]

Is it just the sex part that he's referring to?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

I mean, that's what he, like, kind of explicitly said that.

[Nick]

But is that, like, the most. What's the nicest thing he's ever said to you?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

I mean, he says I'm like. He says I'm, like, beautiful. Like, I know he's attracted to me.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Let's.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

I guess, like, he's made that clear. He also. So I'm also Jewish. And he made a comment this past time where he was like, I don't know what it is, but I just feel like I'm so into Jewish girls. And a part of me is like. Because the first time we hooked up was 15 years ago. I was like, am I the prototype? Am I the reason why? Or was There someone before me? I don't know.

[Nick]

First kind of influences a lot sometimes.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah, I know I wasn't his first, but he was mine.

[Nick]

Gotcha. So why haven't you gone for it?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

I think I'm just intimidated a little bit, and I think I could be a little avoidant. I realized my most serious relationship before my last one, so my college relationship. I thought we were on the same page the whole time, and we had a really great, beautiful relationship, great friendship. But I realized we never actually talked about the future, and I just kind of assumed. And then in my last relationship, we did talk about the future and that we saw each other marrying each other, and then obviously that didn't happen. We broke up. But I guess I realized that I sometimes have a hard time being vulnerable and putting myself out there like that.

[Nick]

Do you guys live in the same area?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

No.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

So he's back across the country in the city I lived before, the one that's close to my hometown. And I'm still across the country, but before we met up over the summer, it was about, like, maybe three weeks ago. At this point, four weeks ago, I was already kind of thinking about going back to my home city. Not only because of the breakup, but also just because I've been in this new city now for four years. And while I do really love it, I was kind of thinking it might be time to go back.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

So it was something I was already considering.

[Nick]

So it's possible that if you shot your shot and you guys wanted to consider giving this a shot, there's a lane for you to close that distance.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah. And I definitely would be open to moving, so. Yeah.

[Nick]

And he's definitely single right now?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yes.

[Nick]

I mean, you gotta. You gotta shoot your shot.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

But what do I say?

[Nick]

It's not that. It's not that complicated, you know? Like, there's no. There's no magical thing you're gonna say. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't matter what you say. You have to be direct. You know, you have to go for it. You have to put yourself out there. You can't sugarcoat it. You can't say things like, I have a crush on you. That's. It's not about nostalgia. You know, honestly, I don't think it's that special, what he said to you in terms of, like, when I see you, I feel like I'm 17 again. You do elicit, like, a fun, nostalgic feeling for him, and that's great, but I don't think that's what you're, what you're looking for. But I do strongly feel like he doesn't see you in the way he, you want him to see you right now. It doesn't mean he can't, you know, for, you know, I've talked about this a lot, but, you know, when I first, you know, met my wife, I didn't necessarily see her as someone who could be my girlfriend, you know, because of things that, you know, I thought were like, okay, well, she's younger than me and we live, you know, it's just like that's not how I saw her. She had to fight, you know, she had to be confident in her, her feelings towards me. It was her confidence in belief of what she thought we could be that ultimately made me see her in a different way and gave me the confidence to do the, to pursue her, to say yes to a poss. I, I, you know, and she's. We, you know, we've talked about this and joked about on the show. I, she, I rejected her a few times, but it was her conviction. So my point is, is like, you know, you might be avoidant and not good at confrontation or good at being a direct, but that is what it's going to take to get this guy to like change the way he sees you because he just doesn't see you as an option to like have a relationship with. He sees you as the girl he just has been sleeping with since high school off and on. And. Yeah, why, why he sees you differently, why doesn't see you that way? There's a million different way reasons, who knows. But he just doesn't. And you, it's, you have to act like he is missing out, like he is silly. You gotta assume he's gonna say no at first and then you have to shut down the possibility of, of ever him ever having access to you and the way that he's used to having access to you. You almost have to give him the pitch. No one really wants to do that. Women want to do that even less than men to, to, you know, I don't want to chase and I don't want to beg for someone to date me. But like, this is a different scenario where you guys both kind of have mental barriers of how you see each other. Probably more him than you. You know, I don't know how you feel after having sex with him, but like, you know, if you probably have a slightly more of an emotional attachment than he does, you know, and he obviously likes you on some level, right. And I think your pitch is just like, I think we should date. I really care about you. We've known each other for our entire adult lives. We always find our way back to each other. We've dated multiple people in between. It hasn't worked out. And I want to pursue something with you because I. I like this about us. I like this about you. And I think you feel the same about me, and I think you're just too chicken new. I think you have to kind of be aggressive. I think at times, men really respond to very confident, aggressive women who know what they want.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah. When we met each other last time, like, over the summer, he said to me, we were talking about our summer in Europe stories and, like, just being very open about, like, the other people we, like, hooked up with. And he said to me that, like, there was a girl who they, like, were on a walk or something, and she's like, so, are you gonna kiss me? And he's like, I guess I just like women like that. So he kind of was, like, explicitly telling me that he likes when a woman is upfront and says what she wants.

[Nick]

Sure. Yeah. And it's more than just being upfront. I think, you know, there's a boldness, and I think there's a level of the fact that you guys have been hooking up for as long as you do, and just, obviously, I just met you, but you. You have a more of a demure energy about you, which is lovely and great, you know, But I think at times with that demure energy, I think there's a level of whether it's outright a conscious choice or just a subconscious choice, I think there's this, like, thought of, like, take. You know, like, taking it for granted. Yeah. What's the thing that stopped him from pursuing you? One is a typical guy. He's. He's always known he could have you, you know, So I don't. And I don't think playing hard to get right now is the way, you know, I think you play hard to get after you shoot your shot, aggressively shoot your shot, you make your case, and you got to paint a picture that, like, you're gonna miss out on maybe the best thing. And, like, I don't think it's a coincidence that we always find our way back to each other, and we've been spending our entire adult lives looking for what we have right in front of us. And what a cool story. But, like, I want to date you, and I want us to date, and I want us to, like, give this a shot, because, honestly, I'm not gonna keep sleeping with you forever. I, you know, like, this is, it's.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Run its course this last time too. He said something like, you know, I saw that you had been dating your ex and I would see you post about him and in my back of my mind I would think, wow, I wonder if this is who she's gonna end up with. Like, is this who she's gonna marry? Like, will this be it? He's like, so, you know, I just feel like we'll always be in each other's lives though. Like he was saying stuff like that. And so I'm like, okay, so you're paying attention to the fact that I'm dating someone else.

[Nick]

I love that. To be honest. I don't, like, I don't think that's as if he's imagining who you're gonna marry without it really seeming to bother him and then stating that he's always gonna see you in his life. Yeah. Why does he think that? You know, why does he think he's in a position being a guy that you have slept with your entire adult life off and on? Why does he think that your future husband would be okay with that?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I guess like in my mind I interpret it as him hoping that that wasn't the case, that I would end.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Up with that guy.

[Nick]

But again, I, maybe I think that's a bit of a reach. Hard to say. I think it's just as likely that he is. He wants to make sure you're comfortable with your arrangement that you have. I think a lot of guys who have buddy situations, like, understand, like, I think the average adult man, even the dumb ones, like, understand that like, even in hookup culture, women respond to sex a little bit differently. And there's a sensitivity there. And I think when, when men have access to sex without commitment, they want to maintain it without like the, the whole like, thing, shit hitting the fan and, and feelings getting in the way of the convenience of this kind of casual sex. And I think that could, it could be him just kind of massaging that relationship to just, you know, we're cool, right? We're cool. Everything you're telling me he has said to you kind of comes across as more. He's too in control of himself when around you now again, he might just need a wake up call. I think the thing you're gonna have to practice is your delivery. And I think it's gonna have to. With a, it's gonna have to come with a level of assertiveness and Confidence, Mo. An emphasis on the confidence. It's not. I really like you, and I'm just, like, hoping you feel the same. No, there's. I don't take the word hope out of your vocabulary. I think you're an idiot if you don't. If we don't. Jade, I think there's a reason why you always come back to me, you know, in a way. You know, like, again, he might not feel that. I don't know. It's hard to really, based on what you're telling me. I. It's hard for me to be like, yeah, I think. But, I mean, he does keep coming back to you, which is. Is a nice thing. And then again, like, if you think you're his type and. And you're confident he's physically attracted to you, there's definitely a chance there. He obviously enjoys your companionship. I mean, that's the thing, is that, like, there's a lot of. From your perspective. It does make a lot of sense. It does make a lot of. It's like, what is he doing? He's just, like, never seeing you that way, and he's just always accepted you as the friend he has sex with rather than a woman that is possibly his future partner. Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

So I'm going back to my home city in the middle of September, and, like, after we saw each other for the last time, he texted me just like, oh, like, have fun with you. Like, safe travels back. And then we talked, like, a little bit back and forth. And then he liked my Instagram, you know, all these little things that you look for. He, like, liked my Instagram story, but we don't really have that kind of relationship where we just, like, text back and forth. So I guess I'm wondering as it gets closer to when I'm going to be back in my mind, there's, like, this concert that I'm going to in the. In the city where I was like, maybe I invite him to come with me. And I guess just like, how should I. I feel like it should be in person. Right? Not over text or. What do you think? Phone call?

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, always. It's always better to deliver this in person, for sure. And certainly no rush. I guess you've waited 15 years. I mean, I do think there's an urgency here. This might be your last window. Eventually he's going to meet someone, and you. You may, too, you know, and. And I think that's kind of part of your pitch. It's just like, are we literally never going to try?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, we've. There's been all these opportunities where we've. In between us being in with. With other people, we've hooked up, but we've never, like, taking the possibility of us seriously. And honestly, I think we've been foolish. You make your pitch, but you don't beg. You know, and there's that fine line between it's like, make your pitch once and leave it at that. It's not. It's not a constant thing. If he does give you the I don't, you know, blah, blah, blah, and like, I don't know. And then you're just like. Well, I think you're an idiot. I think a little childish name calling can go a long way with men.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

Don't be, you know, don't be mean. But I think you want to, like. I think you want to have a little edge to you.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Because there's, you know, like, that's the one thing that, like, doesn't come naturally for you. If there's any part of them that likes an assertive, aggressive woman, that might be the thing that he's not seeing in you. He's got to feel like he could lose you. He's gotta. He's gotta feel like that this is the last chance you'll have.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

I think that's what's. I know eventually, like, this will have to end if we don't end up together, because obviously my future partner will not be okay with this arrangement or maybe even friendship, because there's a lot of history there.

[Nick]

Obviously, I wouldn't. In what world? Yeah, like, I'm gonna get coffee with the guy. I've only just for 15 years.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

And then I lost my virginity, too.

[Nick]

And it's gonna be like, why didn't you marry this guy? Like, why does he want to have coffee with you? Yeah, and that's the thing. You point that out to him, it's just like, we're not like, this is it, man. Like, I have no interest in being your friend, and if we don't end up together, I'm gonna end up with someone. And, like, we are not gonna always be in each other's life. And if you think that we are, you need to. You're a little delusional. And I think that's the aggressiveness that you, you know, you need to call him out. Like, you know, he has taken, you know, you for granted. In a way, it's. Get it. Just to repeat, it's a fine line between an assertive aggressiveness, a confident. What you want. This is. You're not trying this out. You're jumping all in and you're saying, what are we doing? Why haven't we tried this? We owe it to each other. It made sense why we didn't get together in college and why, you know, like, that would have been weird for high school sweethearts. And, like, I don't want to get married to the guy I lost my virginity to. And I'm glad we've dated other people and found. Kept finding our way back to each other, but are we really not going to try this out? I'm perfect for you. You know, you gotta, like. You really gotta say it, like, with that level of confidence. And then if he's like, hey, I just. I'm sorry, I don't feel that way. You say, you know, your loss. If you change your mind, let me know. And hopefully I'm still available and still feel the same way. But short of that, you know, this is your last shot.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

You make it seem so easy.

[Nick]

It's not. It's not easy. And you will be nervous. And I do think you should literally practice saying this to him and you. And be mindful of your body language and your confidence when you say this.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. You know, we all want. We can't. You know, it's just the same. I don't, you know, like, the. The girls like the bad boys. It's like, it's that he wants to. He's got to feel like he can lose you. And now he. He just. He's. What he knows is that he can always come back to you. He's really taken access to you for granted.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah. No, I think all this makes sense. And I think in the past, I was afraid to say any of this with the. The possibility of losing this or him.

[Nick]

You're. You're 31.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Exactly.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

I think it's just like, you know, I do want to get married. I do want to have kids, and I'm 31, so it's not.

[Nick]

And. And hopefully the part that motivates you is you telling yourself, I don't want him in my life at 34 years old if he's not my boyfriend or fiance or husband.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Because, like, things aren't going great if. If you're still casually hooking up with the guy you lost your virginity to in your mid-30s after another relationship that didn't go your way.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know what I'm saying? That's your motivation to say, like, you know what? This is stupid. If I'm still Fucking this guy at 35 as my fuck buddy. Things have gone wrong and I've made decisions not in my best interest. And so I want this guy out of my life. If he's not gonna be a part of my life and he's not a part of your life right now, he is, you know, he comes and goes. So I think, yeah, that's true.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

It's not like I. I mean, I'd be losing the potential, but I'm not losing, like, you're right. He's not an active part of my everyday life.

[Nick]

Yeah. What do you mean? What potential?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Well, just that if we are meant to be together, like, even if you're.

[Nick]

Meant to be together, this relationship is an example. If you don't do something about it, like, fate's not going to take care of it. Fate will only do so much. I mean, I'm not a big believer in fate, but this is an example of someone's got to do something. You know, like, whatever you believe in, God energy, they might put you in the same room together. They might keep reminding you that, hey, it's just like, I'm trying to let you know, in this situation, someone's got to be bold enough to fight for this relationship. Relationship. And it's gonna have to be you. But you fight but don't beg. So you state your case, you say it with confidence, and then you say, hey, well, you know, if you change your mind, let me know. Hopefully I'm still available, but, like, I'm done doing whatever it is, what we've been doing for the past 15 years. And I get it. Like, you know what, last time, you know, the crush part, five years ago, whatever it was, you moved to a new city. Great. You know, it's just a excuse on his part. It's not like he was doing that for you.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Right, right.

[Nick]

You know, he'll probably use the long distance as an excuse. I. It's like, I don't want you to say, well, I would move for you.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Right, Right.

[Nick]

I think you just say, I'm in the business of problem solving. And, like, if we want. If you want. If we want to make it work, we'll make it work. Obviously. Like, you've known. I. I like being back here. Like, you do that for the person you. You care about. You really gotta call him out on his. Like, every guy wants to be emasculated a little bit by the right person if he's being a little bit of a pussy to, you know, use the, the, you know, if he's being a little bit scaredy cat. He. He needs you calling him out. He wants to be. He. He needs to be checked.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yes, I agree.

[Nick]

And he needs to feel like you can take your power back and. And this relationship would be an equal footing now. He's just like, he's right now. He's the junior in high school who had sex with the freshman. And he's always been like, you know, the upperclassmen in this relationship. And you, this is about you showing up and like, reminding him that's delusional and that's not who you are and that's not this relationship anymore.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Okay. Yeah, you're right. This is helpful because I. So I've been listening to your show for a very long time. Like over five years. I don't, like, I don't even know. Probably listen to the first episode. I don't remember. And I knew you'd give me the blunt, straightforward, what I needed to hear. Like, I've been talking to my friends about this for probably 15 years, as you can imagine, and they've given me all the types of advice and tell me what I want to hear sometimes. Being blunt sometimes. But I needed. I needed a fresh perspective and yours specifically.

[Nick]

So, yeah, you've done a lot of. It sounds like mental gymnastics around some of the things he said to you and only use that as a way to continue doing that, what you're doing, in the hopes that someday he will magically wake up and sweep you off your feet without you changing anything about this dynamic. That's never going to happen.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yep.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

That is.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

You just read me. That's accurate.

[Nick]

If anyone tells you otherwise, it's never going to happen. If he. If he would, he was. He would have already. If he was worried that he would lose out on the possibility of spending the rest of his life with you. And I think, again, like, you just. You need to change the way he sees you.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yes, I will. I will do that. So hopefully, hopefully in a couple weeks I could do that and I'll practice.

[Nick]

All right. Does he follow you on Instagram?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yes. Yeah.

[Nick]

What's your content look like?

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Mostly just weird. I don't wanna say artsy pictures, but, like pictures of the ground or the sky. Like, I'm not really posting that many selfies or anything like that, but I did this past week and he did like that.

[Nick]

So, yeah, I'm not saying, like, slut it up or anything, but, like, don't be afraid to look like a baddie on your Instagram. You know what I'm Saying, like, he just, you know, you need to. He needs to see you in a different light.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And he needs to see you in a way, like, man, she's looking good. You know, it's like, yeah, well, I. Please keep it posted. I want to know. I want to know what happens.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah, no, definitely will follow up.

[Nick]

Hopefully.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Hopefully with exciting news, but we'll see. Either way, I'll definitely let you know.

[Nick]

Most likely, at first, he's not going to be like, you know what? Thanks for saying, let's date.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You're going to have to give him the. Well, your loss and. And just kind of be a little. A little bitchy, I guess, if he, you know, not. Not like, it's like, again, it's such a fine line between, okay, well, you're an idiot without being, you know, without, like, losing your shit or, you know, it's like, it's just all about you being confident. It really is about you being confident in how you feel and that he's blind if he doesn't see what you see.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

I will rehearse and use confidence and slight bitchiness. Nothing too crazy, but a little bit.

[Nick]

You'Re it, you know? And he. He. He needs to wake the fuck up. You're lucky that, like, fate has allowed you to keep me in your life, but, like, this is it, man.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Yeah, I like that.

[Nick]

Well, I'm excited to find out.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Me, too.

[Nick]

Either way.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

All right, well, take care.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Thank you so much.

[Nick]

My pleasure.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

Best of luck to you and Natalie and the show and your baby and. Yeah, I've been a fan for a long time. Like I said, like, even watching since the Bachelor days, so this is really cool. So thank you.

[Nick]

Thank you for saying. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening and good luck.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Hi.

[Nick]

Thanks. Take care. Bye. Bye.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Well, you'll know that I am the biggest fan of fall, and I'm also the biggest fan of classic basics that will last you a lifetime. And you get that with Quince. Quince is where I'm turning for all fall staples that actually last, from cashmere to denim to boots. The quality holds up, and the price still blows me away. Honestly, anytime I'm scrolling on quints, I find amazing things that I love. Their luggage is top tier. Their bedding is so comfortable and so soft. They have amazing collections for every season that comes around. Quince is the kind of fall staples you'll wear NonStop. Super soft, 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just $60. Their denim is durable and it fits right. And their real leather Jackets bring that clean, classic edge without the elevated price. What makes Quince difference is they partner directly with ethical factories and skip the middlemen. So you get top tier fabrics and craftsmanship at half of the price of similar brands.

[Nick]

I love everything about Quince. Their men's lineup is fantastic. So if you're shopping for yourself or the men in your life, you got to check Quince. You definitely won't regret it.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Keep it classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.com V I A L L for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com V I A L L for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com V I A L L this.

[Nick]

Is an ad by BetterHelp. Well, we all know that taking care of your mental health is incredibly important. And you can do it with the help of better help. We all get support from all different types of interesting places, our friends, our family, all those things. And that's great to have a support system, but sometimes that support system will project their own troubles onto you. And quite honestly, all of our friends aren't great at good advice. They all can't be like me. And if you don't have access to me 24, 7, you can get access to better help. They make getting into therapy easier than ever before because they help alleviate some of those major pain points that make it challenging, difficult or stressful to start therapy. It's incredibly convenient and it's so easy to find a therapist that you connect with, which is so important when it comes to therapy. We understand that being vulnerable and opening up, you know, you really need to have a comfortable person, someone that you connect with and with better help. Working with over 30,000 therapists, it ensures that you can connect with a therapist that you love. You can switch therapists every time for free until you land with someone that you really feel like opening up to, that really feels like you are benefiting from from talking to them. Regardless of what you are stressing about. General stress, work stress, relationship stress, financial stress, whatever it is, get it off your chest with the help of better help. All you gotta do is go to betterhelp.com, answer a few questions about what you are stressed out about and what you're looking to talk about, and they will connect you with a licensed mental health professional and you could be getting the therapy that you've been waiting for and no time as the world's largest online therapy provider in the world. BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with better help our listeners get 10 off their first month at betterhelp.com v I a l l that's BetterHelp. H e l p.com v I a l l how's it going?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Good.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

How are you?

[Nick]

Good. What's your name?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

My name is Sydney.

[Nick]

I'm 24 and how can I help Sydney?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Okay, so I can't commit to my non boyfriend boyfriend because I don't like his haircut, which is a mullet.

[Nick]

Okay. How long have you been hanging out with your non boyfriend boyfriend?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

About five months.

[Nick]

Okay, and like you're being serious that you and he wants to date you. He's obsessed with you, he loves you, he's like dying to be your boyfriend.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I get that vibe. I don't know, I mean, maybe that's something that you can figure out or you are going to have follow up questions that I imagine about.

[Nick]

Sure.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

But like we haven't talked about it, but it's getting to the point where I'm like, I have to refer to him as my boyfriend or otherwise people are like, what are you doing?

[Nick]

All right, well, what, what is your dynamic look like?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

How do you mean dynamic? Like what do we do?

[Nick]

What is. Yeah, like what is. You've been dating this guy for five months?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Are you having sex? Are you guys playing with house, Meeting each other's families and friends? Are you guys only hooking up on the weekends? Has any of you said, hey, like what are we? Or I want to, I want more? Has that never happened? Like, what does this look like?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I got you. I'll give you the debrief. Okay. So we started seeing each other five months ago. We were, we met on apps, just looking for something casual. We met up, it was great. How old is he casual? He's 30. Okay, so it was just like hooking up the first couple times, but it was going really well. So we just kept seeing each other. Then like a month into that, I went over to his place and all of his roommates knew my name and it like low key freaked me out. So I was like, what? Like did you tell them that I'm like how do they all know my name? Like did you tell them that I'm your girlfriend? And he was like, oh my God, you're so 24. Like only 24 year olds for freak out about being called someone's girlfriend, which was like, okay, fair. But Like, I'm. I'm. What are the vibes here? And so.

[Nick]

And when do you mean by freak out? Like, what were you like? First of all, why. Why was it weird to you that people knew your name? What did you want to be referred to as the girl?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I don't know. I was just like, oh, my God, you're telling your roommates about me. Like, they know who I am.

[Nick]

He invited you over.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I know. Like, I always go over to his place. I'm frequently there. Like, look, I know this is a little.

[Nick]

So. But are you saying, like, you came over to his house and they're all like, oh, what's up, Sid? You know, like, was it like that energy where. And then you were just like.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Like I walked up and his. Like two of his roommates were smoking on their patio and he was like. Or they were like, oh, hey, like, what's up? And I was like, hi, yes, I am just here to, like, your roommate. Basically, like, hope that's cool. And then I like, so they know we're just in here hooking up like that? What? I know they don't think we're just in here playing board games. Like, I know they know what we're doing. And part of that makes me feel self conscious because then I'm like, oh, I gotta, like, we gotta play music. Like, like they already know what we're doing. We can't, like, let them hear all of our business, you know?

[Nick]

Okay. I mean, off the bat, I think it's more of an ick that he's a 30 year old with two roommates than he has a mullet, but so be it.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

We can circle back to that.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Okay. So he was like, you're like, whatever, all good. We kept seeing each other, though. We, like, went on like a date. Like, went to a movie and a dinner, which I was like, okay, this is like. He, like, asked me if I wanted to go and I was like, I do like hanging out with you and I do like spending time with you, so, yeah, why not? While we were on a date, I did like, like, just something about, like, being on a date with him. I was just like, this is weird. But, like, I like spending time with him. It was honestly because we ran into one of my friends and I had to be like, like, what do I introduce him as, like, my boyfriend or like, this is my friend? So I just blacked out and didn't introduce him at all. He stood behind me like the Simon and Garfunkel album the whole time. And then I walked away and was like, I feel really bad I didn't introduce you. And it was like, it's totally fine. Like, you don't need to freak out. Like, you. It doesn't matter. Like, you don't have to introduce me to your friends if you don't want to. So that was the first time we went out. And then we went on like, a trip together. Like a weekend trip. Like a three day. We got like an Airbnb. And then I went on vacation. He went on vacation. So we didn't see each other for two weeks. And then while we were both gone, I was like, I do kind of miss him. Like, I do, like, hanging out with him.

[Nick]

Did you hear from him at all?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah, like, we texted, like, almost every day.

[Nick]

Do you know if he's hooking up with other people?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I know he's not.

[Nick]

You know he's not.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

He said he's not. I mean, I trust him.

[Nick]

And did he offer that information or did you have to ask?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I didn't ask. What happened was, this was a couple weeks ago. Someone who I was seeing casually, like, in the winter was like, hey, I'm back in your city. Do you want to see each other again? And I was like, let me ask the boy. Let me ask the dude. So I was like, hey, this is going on. Like, what are the vibes? Like, do I tell him? Like, yeah, like, whatever. It would be fun. Or do you want me to tell him?

[Nick]

You're basically like, do you care if I go fuck this guy or. Or is there something more to us?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yes, exactly.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

And he was like, look, I'm. I don't want to tell you not to. Like, I don't want to be the reason not to. But also, like, then I mentioned. I was like, it would just be like, a little bit of fun. Like, he's only in town for a couple days. He was like, okay, well, feel better that you're saying it would just be a little bit of fun. Like, he was like, if you said it was gonna be anything more than that, then I would feel bad. So then that makes me think, like.

[Nick]

What does feel bad mean?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah, like, that I didn't follow up because it was like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Like, whatever you say, dude.

[Nick]

Like, yeah, I mean, I don't love that for you.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

You don't love it.

[Nick]

Well, I'm hearing is, well, I'm glad that you don't want to go be his girlfriend because then I don't get to have sex with you anymore. Right. As opposed to being like, no, like, I really like you. And like, yeah, I would, you know, yeah, you're, you're your own person. You're an empowered woman. Like, I'm not, I can't stop you. But if you're giving me the option not to share what I have with you, I don't want you to.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Now maybe like, I don't know, 30 year old guy in 20, 25, maybe he just doesn't have the guts to like, man up and say something like that in this day and age. And maybe men. I feel like a lot of, you know, I do, I say, I say this like every week now. I just think men 35 and under don't really know how to be assertive without being pricks. You know, they don't know how to be charismatically confident and, you know, state what they want because they're so, you know, it's like you have two type of guys now. You have these like red pill alpha, toxic males or these like beta boys who like, are just like, so afraid to like, man up.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Well, the beta boys are afraid of being perceived as the alpha males, I think, which is why they swing so hard in the other direction.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. But they don't like that. Find that balance. I'm like, you can be both a respectful king and an assertive, confident man who like women see as, like, this is a guy who knows what he wants. And you know, I'm not a woman, but like, the women I know like assertive, confident men who want to kind of stake their claim, so to speak. You know, last time I checked with my women friends, you all want a guy who says, no, I don't want you being with anyone else.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

That's fair.

[Nick]

I want you and I want you from me. And then you have the right to say, well, no, sure, you know, certainly. But yeah, he was more like, well, you know, you know, if you just suck his dick, I guess I'm cool with it, you know, Like, I don't. That's not the energy I want for you. Right, so.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Well, I think, like, I think he's not go. I don't think he's ever going to be upfront with me and be like, I want to date you because I freaked out about being called his girlfriend earlier in the relationship.

[Nick]

Yeah, I disagree.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Okay.

[Nick]

I mean, first of all, if that's the case, he's like, I don't know, got some growing up to do. Listen, I, I understand from both your points of view that, like, yeah, dating culture has become terrified of labels.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right?

[Nick]

And so, you know, you have these situations right now, but I think people who are going to end up together, they're not basing off, like, well, I can never. I don't want to be. She freaked out when we first met. It's been five months, and, like, I don't know what you guys been doing over these past five months, but hopefully you've been building a rapport and a comfort level with each other that you didn't have in the first couple weeks of hooking up. Whether you have a label or not, you know, you should. You should both, in theory, feel like after five months, there should be, you know, again, that comfort level, that assumption of spending time together that, you know, without the constant, like, I don't know if he's gonna call today or tomorrow. Whether you guys are acknowledging that comfort level or not, hopefully it's there.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah, I think it's there. I mean, like, we definitely text regularly. And, like, this is where. Why I'm like, he's the non Boyfriend boyfriend, because I feel like we're doing all the boyfriend things, like texting about how your day is going, like, when I can't see him for a weekend, like, FaceTiming and, like, catching up. Like, he started a new job this week, and so, like, he was, like, really tired. So, like, instead of, like, hanging out in his place, we just, like, went and got dinner. It was, like, one of the first times that we had, like, really, like, gone or just, like, not gone to one of our places, and, like, we're just getting dinner and whatnot.

[Nick]

And so you actually had a date or. Have you had a date? Yeah. Or have you only had Netflix and chilled?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

No, we've had dates. Like, we'll go, like, to a movie and a dinner, like, pretty regularly.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Like. Yeah.

[Nick]

What's the most relationship thing you guys have done?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I mean, we've taken two weekend trips.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

So I feel like that's pretty relationshipy.

[Nick]

Yeah. Who initiated that? How did that go?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Who initiated it?

[Nick]

Yeah, more. But how did it go? He did. And how did it go?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah, both went good. I mean, one was last weekend, and, like, we were just, like, at a hotel, like, swimming at the pool, and I'm like, this is sweet. Like, he is sweet. He is really nice to me. Like, maybe I do like him.

[Nick]

Like, yeah, why don't you just say you like him, you know, rather than maybe because.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Because I'm a coward, Nick. I know why. Okay. I know why I'm Scared?

[Nick]

Well, first. And it lets us, you know, your original question. Well, I'm glad we get into the truth. It's certainly not the moment, you know, like.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

No, we can, of course. When is it ever?

[Nick]

Yeah, because like, you know, you know, just to clarify, that is a pet peeve. He can always cut his hair and clearly hasn't stopped you from doing whatever you've been doing already.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

You don't, you know, he has cut his hair. He has made an attempt. It is still a mullet.

[Nick]

That's fine, whatever. Let me ask you this. Has he. Does he still. Is he still giving you the same energy, which is like that. Oh, of course. That you're such a 24 year old. Like, does he still from time to time make some of those condescending comments about your age? Or do you feel more like his equal over the course of the five months?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

No, definitely more like equals. And I feel like the only. Or like I honestly feel like I'm more condescending to him about his age than he is to me about mine. I feel like rarely brings it up, if ever I bring it up because he like, struggles with technology sometimes and I like give him shit for it.

[Nick]

Cool. Okay, so you're, you're, you're comfortable giving him shit? Yeah. You're not.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Okay, very comfortable giving him shit. Like, I feel like the 24 year old comment makes him seem like pretty bro y and like, I don't know, I just. We have a good rapport. Like, yeah, I would say we're pretty, like jokey with each other. Like, I told him this weekend I didn't like the mullet and he dunked me in the pool. Like, okay, we're goofing around.

[Nick]

Okay, so what do you want to do about it?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I don't know. That's why I'm here. Because I am like, on one hand, like, I do like him and I do miss him when he's not around. And ultimately, like, I didn't hook up with that guy when he was in town because I didn't want to. I was like, I. Even though, like the guy, my, my boy was like, oh, like, you can do whatever you want. Like, just let me know what you decide. Like, whatever. Like, I ultimately was like, it's so easy and like, we have such a good thing going right now. And like, it's just like, it's so easy to be around him and it's so easy to talk to him. Like, why would I want to do any that would potentially compromise that and like, yeah, hooking up with another guy would probably be a bit of fun, but, like, I'm having so much fun currently that, like, again, I wouldn't want to do anything to compromise that. And I told him that and he was like, well, you wouldn't be compromising that. Like, as long as you're honest and upfront with me. Like, everything is like a conversation and we can, like, talk about it. Which then I ultimately decided, like, I didn't want to hook up with the other guy. And I told him that and he was like, okay. Like, Like I could tell that he was trying, like, not to have a reaction about it. And he was like, well, I hope that was like an easy conversation and that the other guy, like, was chill when you told him or anything.

[Nick]

Okay, so what are you afraid of?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

How to sum it up? I don't know. I think, like, I haven't really been in like a long, consistent relationship before. I would say, like, five months is probably like the most consistently I've like, seen a guy okay in my life.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, I don't know if you're behind your peers, but from my point of view, I think. But what do you want? What I. What do you want for yourself romantically in life? You know, I don't.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I mean, I do want to, like, get into a relationship.

[Nick]

Like, do you want to get married and settle down? Have a fam.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah, eventually.

[Nick]

Okay, and when, when you say eventually, what does that, what does that kind of look like?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Like, probably like early 30s, like down the line. I'm like, I don't want it to be something I prioritize right now. This year I was mostly like, okay, I want to just like, prioritize, like, getting in a relationship and like, getting experience with that, because I haven't been in a relationship before.

[Nick]

Have you dated around at least? I mean, yeah, like, you know, let's assume that, like, you shoot your shot, you guys date and you're like, oh, it. I mean, I love this guy. And you know, you date for three or four years, you're what, you're 27, 28.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Then.

[Nick]

Then you get engaged and this is the last, you know, short of you guys, like, you know, breaking up once, like, and he ends up being the last guy you hook up with. You feel like you've had some, You've had your fun?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

No, like, I don't. And I feel like that's part of why I'm like, gun shy to get in like a full blown blown relationship right now. Because, like, I still like, you know, I like to have a little bit of fun. Like, I'm still, like, in that. Like, a relationship isn't something I want to prioritize right now. And like, also, like, I don't know if I would, like, want my, like, potential person to be someone who, like, we started dating because, like, we were hooking up. Like, because it was supposed to be a one night.

[Nick]

No one, no, no one cares how you met. Certainly your relationship.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I know, I know, but, like, I care. And, like, then I gotta tell my mom and be like, this is what was happening. I'm from Kentucky.

[Nick]

Like, it's like, why does mom need to know the details?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Because she's gonna ask. Like, she's gotta know everything.

[Nick]

I've been dating him for five months and we built a relationship. And, like, we kept hanging out and I. More and more. And now we're boyfriend and girlfriend. Okay, fair.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Like, everyone wants to know the meat cute. And then I gotta be like, we.

[Nick]

Met on the apps. That's what people do. I don't like, that's.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I know.

[Nick]

Heavy. Listen, if. If you're holding out for some meet cute that, like, is worthy of a rom com, good luck.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

You're right.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

You're right. This is fair. And like, I know I'm like, holding him to, like, an impossible standard, as I do with all guys. And like, this is what it comes back to is like, I have a standard that he'll have a specific haircut. And now the guy in front of me does not have that haircut and I want him to change. Like, that's like, well, listen, you.

[Nick]

And as a potential girlfriend, you can, you know, Natalie. I grew a mullet for Natalie because she's like, I'm kind of into it. So, like, ah, fuck it, I'll. And I sported a mullet for like six months, kind of, you know, I do things that my wife finds attractive. I mean, now that I'm married, I only do, you know, it's just like, oh, sure, like what? Like what turns you on? Like, short of it being, like, me wearing a clown suit, like, I'm down to try it out, you know, I want her to be attracted to me. I do things for her. Right. Like, I.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, I am not looking good for other women. I'm trying to look good for her. Right? And vice versa. I think it's fair that you're, you know, you don't want to prioritize a relationship right now. All I'm saying is the old guy here who's like the big playing Big brother to you right now is like time flies and you never know when you're going to meet the right person. And like you need to get it out of your head how you're going to meet this guy. You need to get out of your head all the like pet peeve and trivial. Like all the little like, I mean, do you care about him? Does he care about you? Does he treat you with respect? Do you guys have fun together? Like, do you see, you know, like are you attracted to each other? Like, you know, people have a really hard time finding that shit, you know. You know it's like so I wouldn't be so quick to like, you know, like there's no guarantees. Like, right, Even if he fucks you up a little bit emotionally and breaks your heart in two years, it might be worth it. Like it might, you know, like that's a, that's a rite of passage, so to speak. What you don't want to be is what so many people your age are turning into is like this professional casual daters who don't really know how to be in relationships, who don't know how to like, you know, make sacrifices and compromises for someone they care about. And that's what it takes to be in a relationship. Like relationships had turned into these, like self serving, you know, I just want someone to hang out with me at my convenience and like pop in and out when I want, you know, and it's both men and women are doing it and like this is not how it works. And if you are someone who wants to someday settle down and get married, like, and you think this is a guy, you really enjoy his company and you start to care about and you have fun together and you have great sex, like it might be worth a shot. There's no guarantees. Like you, you know, you're not going to propose to him and say hey, like let's get married next week. You're just like, you know, but I don't want to keep doing this and I think it's stupid for us. Like, you know, at the end of the day if, if, if another gu and says he wants to have sex with me and I don't and we're just doing the same thing, maybe I should take him up on it, you know, and vice versa. But if we're gonna like, you know, investing our time into each other, why don't, why don't we go for it? Like, I don't know, we might break up. I don't know, I might fuck you up, you might Fuck me up emotionally, I don't know. But in the meantime, let's go. You know, in three years you're gonna be 27 and then you'll be three years away from 30.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And I don't know how you feel about 30, but a lot of women have strong opinions about that.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

You know, it'll be fun to be 30.

[Nick]

Okay, good. I'm glad you have the perspective. And I think too many people today are, you know, they're like PowerPointing their lives in a sense of like. And that just. Shit doesn't work out that way. And there's just. There's just a lot of lonely 30 year olds out there who kind of had too much casual fun in their twenties and really don't know how to commit or make sacrifices and, and be in relationships. And I'm not, you know, I'm not saying, you know, you can't around all your twenties and, and Right. But I'm just saying if, if you like them, you should try. You can always break up. You can always break up.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

This is true. Follow up question. Okay, so he's coming over in like two hours to like, we're eating lunch together, okay. While I'm working from home. Then he's going out.

[Nick]

That sounds like some boyfriend and girlfriend.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I know. This is the thing is, the thing is we do like this and then I gotta be like, people are like, oh, who is the dude? And I have like, for like three months they just referred to him as Mr. Friday Night and didn't tell any of my friends his name because I was like, what are we doing? Like, I don't know. But then I gotta tell people his name because we're going out of town together. And what if he kidnaps me? But he won't kidnap me because he's such a nice guy and like, like, I'm not actually concerned about that, but I'm like, I feel like I should tell people his name before I just go out of town with my mystery man.

[Nick]

I think it's fun the way you met, if you ask me, you know, and you, you, you know, you. It takes. So I mean, if you heard, if you ever listen to the show, I always talk about how long it takes to build emotional connection. The fact that you guys hooked up fairly quickly and he kept coming back for more definitely is a good sign that he likes you, right?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Assuming he's telling the truth. And the fact that you have been the only woman he's sleeping with. And you. Is he the type of guy that if you wanted to sleep with more women, could he?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I believe so.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

He's been around the block.

[Nick]

All right.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I say with all respect.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. You're like, my man can sling it.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

There's a reason we kept hooking up.

[Nick]

But I, you know, I can say as a guy that that's a great sign that he does like you. It's very easy for men to have sex with women and, and stay emotionally disconnected, especially early on. And the thing that keeps them coming back is the fact that they love having sex with you. But over the course of five months, that's enough time to be like he is. He's become a part of your life. Him coming over for lunch before he leaves for two weeks is making sure he gets some quality time with you. And now are as the expectation you guys are gonna have sex or is it going to be just lunch?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I don't know how long his lunch break is. He just started a new job, so.

[Nick]

It might just be lunch. It might just be lunch. Okay. So like the fact that he is, is coming over to see you, you know, speaks to that this is a guy who does care about you and likes you and like that's, you know, that's hard, hard to find these days, people, you know, I don't know if, you know, if you looked out there, but a lot of lonely people complaining about how miserable it is and how challenging it is to find like someone they like or you're even interested in.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right.

[Nick]

So are you. Are you asking me to shoot your sh. I don't know if now's the time to shoot like shoot his shot over lunch.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

He's about to town. So then do I try to get it in before he leaves for two weeks?

[Nick]

What is he doing? Are you afraid he's gonna go like around?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

No, no, he's just like going to stay at his grandparents lake house in Idaho. So I don't think there's a lot of pouring around in Idaho happening, but.

[Nick]

Well, then there's no real urgency. I mean, I don't know. I don't know, your rapport comfort level. Like this might be something you want to practice. I don't know.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

This is true. I love to practice.

[Nick]

Great. Well, if you like the practice, that I wouldn't rush it. But I think it's gonna, I think when you, when you do it, you need to be assertive and conf. You need to be, you know, he does. He is older than you, right. So like you and don't allow him to, I guess, talk down to you in a way where he's just like, you're young. You know, he's gonna. He might make excuses, but you're. Oh, you know, I don't know. This is a guy. It sounds like he could be totally down, but I don't. I don't. You don't say. What are we. Honestly, with what I'm hearing from you, it would make a lot of sense for you. You could even do it at lunch. But I don't know, like, maybe you want to practice, but, like, you could just be like, oh, by the way, I started. I started telling people you're my boyfriend and we're together.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Like, you have. You have that kind of playful report. It sounds like where you could just. Like, as a woman, it would be kind of a potential turn on for him for you to just be a little assertive and aggressive and being like this. We. We're dating.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

This is true. I have thought about just referring to him as my boyfriend. Like, this weekend, we were checking into the hotel. I was, like, giving. Passing the key out, and I almost referred to him like, oh, I have to give it. Like, my boyfriend has the key to the, like, hotel person. And then part of me was like, I maybe should have just fucking done that. Yeah, I mean, like, seen what he done.

[Nick]

I just don't. Whatever. However you say it, you don't say it. Or you're asking his permission to define the relationship and give him all the power by saying, you know, what do you think we should do? I'll do whatever you want, want. And if you're not ready, that's totally cool, man. Like, if he. If. If you get an answer you don't want, I think you have to bluff or at least bluff. But I honestly wouldn't bluff. I would just be serious and be like, well, then we're gonna stop doing this.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Okay?

[Nick]

Because honestly, like, unless, you know, it's not about pro. The whole, like, well, I'm not ready to prioritize relationships. I've been able to run a business, grow an empire, all while having a girlfriend. And honestly, having. Having a girlfriend, a fiance, and a wife has, like, made me exp. Like, I think, more successful, you know, on things like that. When you find the right person, that person, like Ella, you know, giving you confidence when you need to pick me up, supports you, is the one person who believes in you. When you feel like no one else does and things like that. I don't know, what are you. What do you. What do you have in. Like, when you say I don't want to prioritize a relationship right now. What are you giving up by having him in your life right now? Like what are you not able to do? Like, what sacrifices do you feel like you're going to have to make if, if next week he's your boyfriend?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Know, I'm just like, I'm like right now at the point I am in my career, a lot of my time is not my own. And so like my schedule is not really at my own liberty. And so I feel like the hours of the day that I do have for free time, I have to be like a little selective with it. Like I am very social and like I see a lot of my friends and I feel bad sacrificing the like time I have with my friends.

[Nick]

Let me ask you this, do you, if all that was different is now you guys have the label and the emotional security that like this is something we're gonna start actually like investing in and seeing if there's a future here? Why do you, why does anything else have to change right now?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

You mean if I had more time?

[Nick]

Like if he was your boyfriend last week. You're acting like he couldn't go to grandma's for two weeks without you.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

You're right.

[Nick]

You know, you don't have to be the couple that is like, like inseparable.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, like you guys can make your own rules. Like every relationship's different. You know, nothing has to change other than, you know, and just like, and, and you could say that, you know, it's just like, to be clear, I don't want anything to drat. To like really change right now. I mean, I, if we do do this, I, I hope that we continue to grow our relationship and, and I don't know, we'll always check in and communicate in terms of like how much more time you want to spend. Obviously I'm very like invested in my career right now. I don't know what he does, but I'm assuming he has is a. Well, and I want to, I, I want, I just want someone who supports me in my career right now and I want us to like continue to take trips and time to time and maybe, maybe things will change. But like, obviously, you know, my friends are super important to me. I want a boyfriend. It doesn't mean I want to like drop everything else in my life.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, you don't have to do that. Like you can strike a balance and you just have to talk to him about what your guys expectations are in this relationship.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right. And I feel like he does like, I feel like he does respect or he knows that I'm very busy and he like respects that. Like one time we're supposed to hang out and then one of my like close friends was having like a really bad day and I was getting coffee with them and then I ended up like spending the rest of the day with them. And I texted him and I was like, hey, I'm gonna like rain check today. Like I need to just like hang out with my buddy. And he told me later, he was like, I thought that was like so hot. Just that like you're a good friend and like you try to like be there for people and so which then in turn like make makes me like him more that he is like respectful.

[Nick]

And understands that like over time hopefully it could just probably happen organically that you'll just, you know, like, you're either gonna like enjoy spending more and more time together or you're not. And again like six months from now, one you, you could change how you feel about him and vice versa. The only real risk as long as you guys just communicate and are mature about this is the risk of like breaking each other's hearts, which fucking sucks. And it's terrible and it's, you know. But it also is a great lesson if you're willing to learn and you can learn a lot about yourself dealing with like that type of emotional tragedy and like you will be stronger for it and you know, whatever, you know, you'll figure your out but like eventually you're gonna have to date someone to know what you like in a relationship. And I don't, if I'm you, I don't want to be the 30 year old person who doesn't really know what it's like to like have to make compromises and sacrifices in a relationship. And that's not, you know, you're not in a position if he's your boyfri tomorrow to make the same type of compromises and sacrifices I'm making today in my relationship as a married man with a kid, you know, but you can still be boyfriend and girlfriend and you can still make some. Like you made a compromise by not sleeping with that guy already. You made a sacrifice. Yeah, you know, you communicating with him. Hey, can I rain check? Can I see my friend? That's is a, is a, in some ways is a little bit of a, you know, it's like, it's, it's that expectation of having to check in with someone. You know, why so many guys out There who are boys who don't want a relationship right now is because they don't want to have to answer to anyone. Right? They don't want to. Like, it's like, yeah, we can have sex, but if I don't call you tomorrow, you don't get to say. You don't get to ask why. If you don't hear from me for three weeks, you don't get to ask why. I don't owe you anything because I told you I don't want a girlfriend right now. You know what I'm saying? Like, right. Like, so being in a relationship is just having expectations of each other, and you guys already have some kind of expectations of each other. So you do for. For you guys to play games with each other and just pretend and not communicate, like, what you both want to work towards is silly.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right? This is true. Never thought I would take advice from a man on a podcast. These are all good points, Nick.

[Nick]

Well, I'm sorry it had to be me.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

It's okay. These are like. But I'm like, you're right. This is all true. Like, and I feel like these are things that, like, other people in my life have been, like, politely telling me or being like. Like, rolling their eyes. And I keep being like my non. Boyfriend boyfriend. Like, they're sick of hearing me use that term. But I don't know what else to refer to him as in a little.

[Nick]

Yeah, like, you know, this is me in the nicest possible way saying, you need to. You need to grow up a little bit.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

But that's fair.

[Nick]

Yeah. And so does he. Like, honestly, like, 30 years old and two roommates is a. It's not something he should be moved to.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

My. I mean, that's fine, but, like, I get what you're saying.

[Nick]

I hope he aspires to grow out of that situation.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I think. Yeah, he does. Before he moved into this place, he had his own place.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Okay.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I'm not trying to defend him.

[Nick]

No, that's fine.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I think it's. I think it's fine if you're 30 and you have two rooms, roommates.

[Nick]

It's okay. You know, I'm not saying it's not.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Everyone has reality TV money.

[Nick]

I hear you, but I've just. I hope there needs to be a level of discomfort he has with it.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Okay. Okay, I can hear that.

[Nick]

You know, as opposed to, like, this is awesome. I feel like I'm in college still. You know what I'm saying? Like, eventually some of his friends should get on his nerves when it Comes to, like, living with them, you know, just there should be a level of. I def. Like, it's fine for now, but this is not where I want to land any. You know, and I. And I'm anxious and excited about, like, being friends with my friends and not living with them.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right.

[Nick]

You know?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right. Yes, I understand this.

[Nick]

I mean, listen, I didn't. I. I think I was about 30 when I had. Last time I had a guy roommate. 31. Two is still aggressive.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

32.

[Nick]

No, I said two. Just two roommates. Are you. Oh, is it, like, a major house? Is it, like, a major city? That's crazy. Rent.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah, it's one of. One of the big ones.

[Nick]

One of the big ones. Okay, well, that's a little bit more understandable. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. It should still bug him a little bit. Yeah. Okay.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

I'll check in with him. I'll be like, does it bug you that you have two roommates? I'm kidding. I won't do that. I don't want to put any ideas.

[Nick]

Eventually. It's a good question. Yeah.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Look, I'm already fighting the mullet battle. Like, I can only, like, I have to, like, climb one mountain at a time.

[Nick]

Okay. Yeah. Just have some fun. Like, it'd be like, I think you're my boyfriend. I'm not gonna make you get a haircut yet. It's fine for now. Like, you can have some fun with it. I don't know, test them out.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

But, well, so, like, he did get a haircut, and then he was like. He just cut it shorter, and he was like, it's not a mullet. It's just a little mullety. And I was like, babe, that is a mullet.

[Nick]

You calling each other babe?

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay, if he rejects your request to define this relationship, then I think you really need to point out, be like, well, then you're an idiot. You're calling me babe. But fine. You definitely need to shut it down, though.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Okay.

[Nick]

Like, immediately.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Like, figure it out. Yeah, like, when you say immediately, you mean in two hours when he comes over for lunch?

[Nick]

No, no, no. Whenever you. If you. If you. If you shoot your shot, then whenever you do. If you. Like, from everything you're telling me, this shouldn't be, like, a big thing. This should be like, all right, someone had to do it. I'm going to do it. We're dating. We're together. You're my. You're my boyfriend.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

If. If he's like, I don't know if I want a girlfriend right now. If he gives you that shit or some version of that. You're just like, cool, then I'm out. Yeah, because like this, like whatever this is, this, you, you, you are my boyfriend whether you, whether you want one or not. You have a girlfriend. And so if you don't want a girlfriend, then you don't want me or this and I'm. And I'm out.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And you need to like be very confident and, and treat him like he's insane and, and in the nicest, calmest possible way.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right.

[Nick]

It's your chill as you're just like, well, you're kind of an idiot. And I think you, you know, don't call me again, I guess, you know, because. And he will.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah, no, I like, I'm like, it is very relationshipy and like, like I, I don't think, like, I think he'll be like, oh, okay, cool. Like you're chill with it. Like, I think he's waiting for me to like drive the car, if that makes sense.

[Nick]

Well, then go ahead and drive it.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah, yeah. So it's like I feel like I got to put the key into ignition a little bit.

[Nick]

Okay, well, let me know when he says yes. I look forward to.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Oh, happily. I would, I would love to give you an update.

[Nick]

All right, well, good luck.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Thank you. We will see how it goes.

[Nick]

Or maybe you just do it at lunch. I don't know. I mean, if you, if you're that confident and I think you should be. It sounds like you have every reason to be. Right then.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Right. Like his mom is asking my zodiac sign because she wants to know like what the vibes are like that to me, I'm like, okay, I like when I say any fact of information, you like, roll your eyes a little bit.

[Nick]

Yeah. I mean, because again, like, you know, and I say this in the nicest possible way. You're a 24 year old woman who's giving a little bit of 17 year old girl.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

That's fair.

[Nick]

Yeah. And I think it's, you know, it's fine, it was whatever. But like you have all the qualities of a 24 year old woman and you're just choosing to like downplay where you're at in life and you know, you're playing, you know, and it's like, that's what I mean, like, you know, grow up a little bit. And again like you can, you can have a boyfriend, you can break up and if I'm you, I would rather be 26 with an ex boyfriend. And that lived experience and then knowing that like you can, you know, date other guys or whatever and to have not actually tried with this guy and not know what it's like to make those types of com, you know, compromises and sacrifices for a relationship and then, you know, get close to 30 of being like, I've never actually had a real boyfriend. Like I, if I'm you, I wouldn't want that for myself.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Yeah, that's true. And I definitely agree, especially when you spell it out like that.

[Nick]

All right, all right, good luck.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Thank you.

[Nick]

All right, bye. Years ago, Caraway's founder and CEO Jordan accidentally overheated a non stick PTFE coated pan and got sick with Teflon flu. And that was the beginning of Caraway Caraway, my favorite pots and pans to cook on. I use them almost every day, five, six days a week. Every time I'm cooking, I am cooking with Caraway for one. They're safe. I mean, it is crazy that there are toxic cookwares out there for you and your family to cook on. But, but thank God there is a company like Caraway that allows you to cook with the peace of mind. Because Jordan, after he got that Teflon flu, looked into the problem and found that it only took 2 1/2 minutes for Teflon coated pans to heat to 500 degrees and began releasing toxic chemicals in the air. Which is crazy not only for you, but for your family. So cook with the peace of mind with caraway and stop sending those toxic fumes into the air. Their nonstick pans are incredibly easy to clean. My wife is allergic to doing dishes. You know, she's great at doing other things in the house, but when it comes to dishes, that is something that falls on me. And Caraway not only makes great to cook on, but so easy to clean those pots and pans. No one likes those sticky cookware sets. They also have a great bakeware set. Their cooking sheets, everything they do is non toxic and great. It also looks great. They have a bunch of different designs, colors, a variety to match your aesthetic. They also have great storage containers with high quality glass lids, non stick streamers and foam FSC certified cutting boards. Everything that carry offers is high quality and safe for you and your family. It makes an amazing gift. Whether it's for a wedding, birthday, a housewarming gift, we give Caraway pots and pans to all of our closest friends. With over 70 of cooking and baking pans sold in America that are coated with PTFes, let Caraway give you the peace of mind to not only Cook with excellence, but make sure you're doing it safely for you and your family. Caraway's cookware set is a favorite for a reason. It can save you up to $190 versus buying them individually. Plus if you visit carawayhome.com v I a l l 10 you can take an additional 10 off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit CarawayHome.com v I a l l 10 or use code v I a l l 10 at checkout. Caraway Non Toxic Cookware Made Modern this episode of the Bao Phaos is brought to you by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, seasonal pastries and fresh pastas. Plus all items conveniently bake in under 25 minutes. If you want that fresh home cooked bread taste without, you know, honestly having to do it from scratch, you gotta check out Wild Grain. Unlike store bought, Wild Grain uses a slow fermentation process that's easier for your belly, richer in nutrients and antioxidants and made with simple ingredients you can pronounce. They now feature a gluten free box and since Natalie has gone gluten free, now she is able to enjoy Wild Grains along with river and I who is a huge fan of their croissants. Absolutely delicious. What I love so much about Wild Grain is their sourdough breads. I'm a sourdough bread guy as much as I can eat sourdough I do and they have a great sourdough selection. It's absolutely fabulous. Some other great items that they have is their apple cider donuts or their pumpkin cinnamon biscuits. If you are excited about Fall as much as Natalie and I are, you gotta check out those pumpkin cinnamon biscuits. They're delicious. Rivers a huge fan of them and it's really, really tasty. This fall, treat yourself and your loved ones to warm sourdough breads and seasonal baked goods from Wild Grain. Rumor has it they have apple cider donuts and pumpkin cinnamon biscuits. Well, it's not a rumor, it's a fact. So get them before these seasonal items sell out out. For a limited time, Wild Grain is offering our listeners 30 off your first box plus free croissants in every box when you go to wildgrain.com V I A L l to start your subscription. You heard me. Free croissant in every box and $30 off your first box when you go to wildgrain.com v I a l l that's wildgrain.com v I a L l or you can use promo code V I A L L at checkout. Don't miss the seasonal products. You heard me. Free croissants in every box box and $30 off your first box when you go to wildgrain.com v I a l l that's wildgrain.com v I a L l or you can use promo code V I A L L at checkout. Dermalogica knows that your skin is unique and your skin should be too. Dermalogica cuts the noise and hype with professional grade formulas that deliver real results. No gimmicks, no trends, just science. Back skincare Trusted by pros and designated to work Work with your skin not just on its smoother, brighter skin in one step. Sign me up. Dermalogica's microfoliant is a rinse based exfoliant that can be used daily to polish away roughness and texture, revealing smoother, brighter skin. This is a must have step in any skin care routine, especially if you're looking for max results with minimal effort. It's made with calming ingredients like colloidal oatmeal and licorice, making it gentle enough for daily use even for those with sensitive skin. Skin this daily use exfoliant is perfect for anyone looking for smoother, burning skin without the guesswork. Trusted by pros and backed by science, they skip the gimmicks and deliver real results with formulas that work with your skin. So if you want smoother, brighter skin fast, you have to check out Dermalogica's daily microfoliant. Visit dermalogica.com and use code V I A L L at cart for an exclusive free gift with any 65 purchase. That'S-E-R M A L O G I C A dot com. Use code V I A L L for exclusive free gift with a $65 purchase. How's it going?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Hi Nick, I'm Margaret. I'm 26 and I'm wondering how my unconventional family is affecting my ability to be happy in a relationship.

[Nick]

All right, well tell me about your family and why it's you think it's stopping you.

[Caller 2 (Blair)]

All right, so I'll start a little.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Bit from the beginning. Well, not the beginning, but sometime in high school I came to the conclusion and I found evidence that my dad is not only cheating and being unfaithful for with my mom, but also ended up being gay, which I'm a hashtag ally so just wanted to set the record straight but like, it definitely added some elements of just fear and doubt in every single relationship since then.

[Nick]

When did this happen?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

So freshman year of high school. I was actually in a relationship at the time. I ended up being in that relationship for four years. But, but, and I mean like your.

[Nick]

Dad coming out as gay and finding out, I'm assuming he cheated on your mom with a man.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah. So that, so that's where I was getting to. It's like that happened freshman year of college and I was in a relationship at the time, so that person was, was there for me pretty heavily at the time, which was nice. But yeah, I found out freshman year, kind of took it to my mom. She pretty much knew and was like, yeah, I kind of had some suspicions, but both my parents were teachers and on a teacher's salary, it just really wasn't doable to kind of get out at the time to her. So from the moment that I kind of suspected it, I kind of just kept looking for more reasons for her to get out. So anytime I'd see another piece of evidence or like have more suspicions, I'd be like, mom, come on, like, now's your chance.

[Nick]

Are your parents still together?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

No, they ended up up finally divorcing. He was sophomore year of college.

[Nick]

Okay, and when you say unconventional family, you mean just my dad came out as gay and, and yeah. Okay, I wouldn't call that like an unconventional. I mean, it's something that happened. Yeah, it's not like what your family. You know, when you, when you said unconventional family dynamic, I was like, are you guys like in a circus or something? Or you know, like, are you have like a devout, you know, crazy religion where you're just like, you know, your family's like helicopter parents. Like, listen, the reality is, is like how old your dad?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

50 something? 55.

[Nick]

Right. So like probably. I'm sure for a lot of gay people it's still not easy to come out, can still be a challenge depending on where you're from or who your family is and yada, yada, yada. But Certainly as a 55 year old man, I'm sure it was much more difficult back then. And, and I think a lot of gay men just like were very closeted and just got married because they thought they should and yada, yada, yada, and, and you know, your dad obviously suppressed his feelings and whatever, but like, eventually your dad could no longer do it. Like the sad also reality is, is that people cheat. Right. It's not okay. It's terrible. It can be very destructive. And Damaging for a relationship. But like, sometimes when people cheats, it feels a lot less fucked up than in other situations. People cheat and even like, how you know, how they cheat can also be like a fucked up thing. But like, maybe not that it's ever okay to cheat. Right. But like, whether you know you're gay and you're closeted and you haven't been able to properly deal with that again, doesn't make it okay. Cheating and doesn't justify cheating. I guess in a way it like humanizes that person because it's not like they were just like callous and bored and like, I just wanted to someone else and I don't like you anymore.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Right.

[Nick]

Whatever.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Right?

[Nick]

I guess. Well, I only bring that up because you're you reference. Oh, well, like ever since that happened, it's affected my how I trust. Like, I guess.

[Caller 3 (Sydney)]

Guess.

[Nick]

Sure, I get it. But why I. Why are you making your dad's sexuality and his in his very understandable struggle with how he went about his life, which also, by the way, is the reason for your existence? AB and then turn that into an excuse for you to like, you know, not ever trust any guy you date? I mean, listen, whether your dad came out as gay and cheated on your mom, the world is littered with examples that, you know, people are unfaithful. You definitely. It's always a risk when you get into a relationship and are vulnerable and give your heart to someone that they could break it. That is a risk of doing that.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah, I can explain a little bit more. So I think the question is a little hard. It comes off a little bit maybe unclear because there's really no way to like sum it up into one question or one statement. And I would say that for me, it's complicated. It's not even about him coming out as gay. I think the problem is, was that he never really did come out. So like, he's never really taken accountability, never admitted anything. It just one day, like he had multiple opportunities to be very truthful to me. I had brought it to him and said, hey, what's, what's this? And he was just like, I don't know, he just denied it. And I just, just.

[Nick]

That's how you. That's how you addressed it? Sorry, that's how you went about it?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Well, okay. So it's actually kind of wild. So I. I found like a letter that was written to him and it was clear that it was mail to mail type of thing. So I ran inside and I went to tell my mom about it just because, again, like, we had a very, like, our family dynamic before that was already pretty rough. Like, nobody. Like, he didn't get along with anybody. He didn't make an effort. He really didn't want to be involved in our lives as much as, like, my mom did. My mom kind of, like, solely took care of us. Like, he was there. He had a job and contributed and all those things. But anytime we were home, it was walking in on eggshells. Like, it was like, I'd be yelled at for any little thing if I spilled water. Like, it was just. He was. And I understand it now from a. From a perspective. I'm a lot older and wiser, but it's still hard because, again, the lack of accountability has really, I think, led to this issue in my life. So getting back to what. What eventually happened. So I found this, like, letter, and I went inside to tell my mom because, again, I was looking for reasons. I'm like, mom, like, here's your opportunity. Like, I knew she was unhappy, too. And I'm like, you shouldn't have to live your life like this. Like, I don't think anybody should. And so I brought it to her, and she goes, okay, send me. Send me a picture of it. And I think I Freudian slipped, and I sent it to my dad, okay? And, like, so in that moment, I had to take responsibility of, like, my own action and be. And, you know, follow up the picture with, like, what is this? Like, I had no other choice. So I. I went about it that way. Like, instead of being like, oops, whatever, I just. I said, what is this? And he just denied it, and he's like, I don't know. And then never spoke about it again. And that's the other thing. My family doesn't like to talk about things once they've happened. So, like, it's been this, like, just kind of like, okay, I guess we'll move on with normal life. And I would have. If he came to me and said, hey, I'm gay, I would have been like, okay, I'm. I'm so happy you shared that with me. But it was like, the lying, the deceit. I found out so much later that he was sneaking around, like, with, you know, friends and, like, things like that we didn't know about. People started not speaking to my mom because they knew and didn't tell her. Like, there's so much to see that, like, he never, ever admitted or never took accountability for that. Like, I feel like I just have this, like, fear of. I think my fear Isn't of trusting. I have a weird ability to trust still, but I think that's my choice, right? Like, I think trusting is a choice. So I've made a choice to trust somebody because they're not my dad. They're not this person, they're not that person. But for me, it's like, I don't want to end up in a situation where I have to make that decision. Whether I have kids or not. That's a big thing that's constantly weighing on me, like, do I want kids? Because I see what happened to my mom and what she had to go through.

[Nick]

When I hear people who have kids with someone who revealed themselves to be a terrible partner and an app, you know, it can be a real struggle. You know, I think a child is just the greatest blessing that you could have. And whatever, you know, as long as you have access to your child and you get to connect with your child, like. Like it's worth whatever come. Whatever challenges come with. That's just my personal opinion. But, yeah, there is no denying that. Again, like, being vulnerable and giving your heart to someone is a. Is a very scary and very risky thing. Knowing that feelings constantly change and that people do lie and can be deceitful and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I do think you're having a hard time in understanding why. Separating the deceit and lies that your dad has done and how he treated your mom and how he treated you, and the fact that maybe he just, like, wasn't the best dad and you have the right to be upset and hurt and. And want him to be accountable for that, to still, like, empathize with your dad's struggle. You know, people cheat for all different reasons, but let's say it's a reason that, you know, they have a bad relationship with sex or whatever or something like that. Them cheating, isn't it just like them wanting to be horny and not really giving a. About you? It doesn't make it okay, but it. It helps you empathize with why they might. You know, again, maybe that person needs therapy. Maybe that person has a lot of work to do on themselves, you know, and. And that person can feel shame for what they did, you know, which. Not that you want someone to feel shame, but like, yeah, as human to human. Like you. If someone did a. If someone hurts you, you. You want them to at least feel bad about it, right? Because otherwise they're like a sociopath. So I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to say to Your dad. If you want to hold your dad accountable for not being the best dad, that's one thing. And regardless of his sexuality, he failed you as a father. On some respects, it sounds like. I think that's separate from what he did to your mom and the reasons for it. And that's even also separate from him owing you the truth about his sexuality. And that last part, when you, like, when I said, well, that's how you did it, if you want your dad to open up and. And have it be okay, you know, it's like, yeah, you know, imagine if it was like, hey, I know you were abused. Like, are you gonna tell me or what? And you're saying, well, if you just tell me, I would accept it. But, like, you. You need to tell me. No, first you have to, like, you have to create a safe space for someone to come out with a truth that their entire life they've been afraid to admit to themselves, let alone other people with the fear of being completely ostracized and rejected by their family, their community, their children, and things like that. And when you, like, send evidence, whether it's accidentally or not, or go to your dad and be like, I know. Are you going to take accountability? That's like the he here. Are you going to take accountability for being gay? Is basically what he's probably hearing. He's not hearing, hey, dad, I love you no matter what, and I am proud to be your daughter. And I certainly have some issues with how, you know, you've, you know, maybe been a dad, but I still love you. And whoever you are and whoever you love, I will always be your daughter, and you will always be my dad. And I want to have an honest relationship with you. And whenever you're ready, it's okay to just be honest with me. And I hope that you can trust me to accept and love you for whoever you are. That is like, worlds different than saying, so are you gonna tell me?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah. Yeah. At that point, so, like, the evidence wasn't, like, it wasn't clear that it would mean that he was gay. I also want to be clear about that.

[Nick]

But whatever the reasons was, you suspected that your dad was hiding something.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Absolutely.

[Nick]

And you failed to create a safe space for your dad.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Horrible. Yeah. No, I. Trust me, like, I look back at that, I'm like, I. I had immediate, like, immediate regret. I was, like, freaking out. Out. I'm like, what do I do? And I had to, like, own up to it at the moment, in the moment. But after that, like, since then, a lot's changed. That was a long time ago. That was. Yeah, that was freshman year of high school. So fast forward to, like, more recently. He knows that I have nothing but a supportive relationship with his partner. Actually, he. He eventually, like, introduced somebody to me as a friend, and I. I knew what that meant, and I was like, okay, you know, like, I'm. I'm just happy. I'm just happy that you are, you know what? Like, including me in your life in any capacity.

[Nick]

He's never told you he's gay?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Like, yeah. And it's kind of funny because it's like, I. I know cat's out of the bag. Like, you don't, you know, but he never outright said, like, hey, I just want you to know this about me.

[Nick]

I mean, I can only assume it's. He's afraid to. It's hard for him to say. It's like, it's. Again, I don't know your dad, and I don't know. I can't speak for what it's like to be gay, but from my friends and close people I know who are gay, it's a real struggle, and there's a lot of internalized hatred and fear and things like that.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

That's what I wanted to try to avoid. Yeah.

[Nick]

And so, again, when it comes to wanting to have an honest relation with your dad about who he is and who he loves, he really needs your help, and he needs an immense amount of grace and understanding. And you are the. When you talk to me about your dad, you give kind of an energy of, you owe me the truth. And I, you know, listen, and I understand it from a con and from the context of, like, you're my dad and you should be honest with me, and therefore, you owe me the truth. I get the logic.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah.

[Nick]

You know, but again, that's what I'm talking about. You're needing to try to separate and compartmentalize if, you know, like, the fact that your dad has this secret, this truth he hasn't shared with you in this obvious fear to share with anyone, and you wanting to have your dad take accountability for how he hurt your mom or didn't step up as a father.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah. And I'm lucky to say that now, Like, I think because, like, I did open my arms to, like, his partner and things like that. Like, it. Without him having to say it, we have built a relationship of, like, this is where it's at. Like, it's clear to me that he is. Like, he knows that I know. Like, it's one of those things where he just knew that I knew. So I think that's where he didn't have to say it. It's obvious now that I know. So there's no, like, you need to tell me anymore. Like, I don't need that. I have. I left that go a while ago. I think that was just. I was, you know, in the storytelling part of it. Like, that's where I was at one point of, like, you know, I wish you would have just told me, but, you know, I got past that at a certain point when they. When they got divorced and accepted that part and just, like, was happy that, you know, he was letting me into that new life. And since then, like, I've accepted him at any capacity, anything he's willing to give me, you know, like, and same. And vice versa. Like, he takes what I'm willing to give him. Like, we definitely don't have, like, a super close bond, but we. We hang out, we go to the. We go to the. The gay clubs and the gay bars and, you know, we have so much fun and do those things. But I still feel like obviously there's an element of, like, yeah, sure, I wish he had been a little bit more vulnerable with me. I do, like, look back on, like, that one message I sent probably did affect him. Like, I've. I've definitely thought.

[Nick]

Did you ever talk about that with your dad?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

The problem? Yeah. The hard part is, is, like, when I try to talk to him about it, there's a level of defensiveness that comes up even when I come with open arms. Like, I've done it in his. In front of his partner. And, like, his partner is like the most calming, soothing person, which is amazing. So, like, I. That's why I chose to do it. Like, any conversation I've had has been, you know, usually in front of that person.

[Nick]

Why in front.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Because he offers that calmingness to my dad. Dad. So.

[Nick]

But yeah, he's. He might offer a calmingness, but you don't know if he's comfortable having that conversation with his daughter with anyone present, regardless of how calm they are.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah, I've had it with. With his partner in the room and separate as well. But usually it's.

[Nick]

Why do you keep bringing it up?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Sorry?

[Nick]

Why do you keep bringing it up?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Why do I keep bringing it up? Yeah, I've only. The last time I talked to him about it was probably five years ago.

[Nick]

But why?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Just because I felt like there was conversations that just hadn't been had. Like, I was holding a sort of resentment of just, like, Again, why do you feel like you couldn't show up for me in the way that I needed to when I was younger? And like, when I did try to have open and honest conversations with him, any sort of subject, it would be defensive. So I just really just wanted to have, like, I guess for, in order just to have close. I think that's what my goal was, is just to feel closer to him.

[Nick]

Okay, get, I get that. It just seems like your approach to being close to him is to bring up controversial topics or, or, or, or to address conflict and to hold him accountable. And if you want to hold your dad accountable, hold him accountable. But that's different than, that's a different goal than I want to be close with my dad. And being close with your dad might require you to accept certain things and give yourself whatever closure you need without necessarily getting it from your dad.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Right.

[Nick]

You know, like, a lot of how you're speaking, it sounds like it, but it's the principle of it. Like, I know my dad knows that. I know he's gay, but, like, he hasn't told me, and that pisses me off, and I, you know, he should tell me because I'm his daughter, and that's as fucked up.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I can see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

And I just think in some of these very sensitive topics that require some nuance, it just requires a lot of grace and understanding and then seeing the bigger picture and ultimately asking yourself, what do I really want going forward out of this relationship? And again, you have every right to have resentment and anger towards your dad for, again, how he treated your mother and how he treated you. But, I mean, how's your mom doing these days? Is.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

She's thankfully remarried. She's pretty happy. But I talk to her often about it just because, like, I don't think she's really worked through it either. I think we share the same. Like, maybe it is lack of closure. Maybe it is just, like, lack of understanding. Like, I don't need to understand him being gay. I'm so, I'm fully supportive of that. Like, I, I.

[Nick]

Well, what's your biggest question? If there's closure that you need or questions that you have, what's the question?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

It felt like, I guess, looking back, like there was resentment towards us for something we didn't choose right. Like, I'm very blessed to have been born, you know, like, especially because if he had come out sooner, like, sooner I might not be here. And I've also acknowledged that. But I also think that, like, there's this level of like, you know, if you began hating your kids, your wife and your life for this, then that's a decision of like. Okay, do you think.

[Nick]

Do you feel like he hated you?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

No, no. Hated the situation that he was in.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

But that was a choice to me. And in other. In other areas of his life, like, with the way he. He talks to me about certain things, like his views about money and this or that, like, he's a very resentful human, just, like, about everything. It's like the world is owed to me. Not like I should earn earnest or whatever. Like, so there's that. There's that type of thinking that I. That I see and hear from him when he speaks.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

And so for me, it's like, okay, you made this choice. You made this choice to have this profession that you knew hit a ceiling. You know, at a certain point, you're not going to be getting paid more than a certain amount. So. So instead, he's resentful of everyone who has more than him.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

And I hear about it all the.

[Nick]

Time, other than it being kind of obnoxious and frustrating, which I totally get. Why. Why are you making it your problem?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

It's hard to be around it, I think. And I'm trying to. I think what I'm trying to say is I'm trying to be the opposite of that.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

And it's. It's really hard when I'm surrounded by it all the time. And I'm.

[Nick]

Are you. Are you around your dad constantly and surrounded by him.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Him? Not. Yeah. I mean, I see him a decent amount. Just because, again, he is my father. I'm trying to get closer to him.

[Nick]

I totally get that. You know, but again, I just. You're not letting go of some baggage that you have, and it's just understandable and relatable. But what I'm hearing is you are in total control of the issues that you're having and the feelings that you're feeling. There's a level of grace and acceptance and understanding. You're not. Not willing to go there yet. You can have a relationship with your father without totally liking everything about who your father is. It might not be the relationship maybe your friends have with their father, but it might also might be a better relationship than many other people have with theirs. Our parents are imperfect people. Like, your story is, I guess, more complicated or intense than maybe others. But, you know, it also sounds like you have a dad who loves and cares about you. His life maybe didn't work out the way he envisioned for himself, you know, gay or straight. He's certainly not the first person like that. Let it certainly be an example, you know, to you, of like, I don't want to. You know, our parents can be either. There are always examples. And they can either be an example of who we want to be or an example of who we don't want to be. And I think in almost everyone's case, our parents play a role a little bit of both. You know, a lot of it's just like I. I love my parents character or not love my parents character or like some people like really admire the professional careers of their parents while don't admire who they are as parents, you know, or like their capacity to love. And my parents made a lot of sacrifices on their own personal life for the sake of having 11 kids, you know, like, I've chosen a different path for myself and I still like, really admire who my parents are. Back to what this. Like, I'm just curious, how do you feel like this affects your personal life life or your dating life?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I think, like, in a way, like I might have mentioned before, just. Just the fact that like, I saw what my mom went through and I just think, like, I've seen a lot of relationships not work. I don't know if it's. I don't. I mean, I'm sure that's a shared experience with a lot of people. Like.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I mean, you know, even just growing up with the family friends, we've had, like, a lot of them ended in divorce or whatever. So for me, I haven't had a great like, like role model of like, what does a happy marriage look like? What does a happy relationship look like? So I think I've tried to figure that out myself, obviously, which is the right thing to do in every relationship that I've had. Like, I'm lucky to say, like, I've had good relationships. Like, my last. The last person I dated was the first, I would say real relationship, like serious relationship. And unfortunately, that was my first heartbreak. He broke up with me out of like nowhere. Um, I'm trying to learn to accept no closure. I've learned that from you.

[Nick]

Well, it's not no closure, but it's just not getting the closure from sometimes.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

It's not the closure. You're gonna.

[Nick]

How old are you again?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I think 26. Okay, so I'm still young and I. And I also realized that. And like, I think there's an element of like, knowing that I'm still so young. I also usually date older guys, so My last relationship, he was 30, 32, and I was 24, 25. And then my. My boyfriend that I'm with now, he's also 32. The reason I'm thinking about all these things of all, like, is this my person, how do I know he's the one? Is because I am dating somebody that's a little bit older. So like, every little thing that comes up, like, let's say there's something that triggers me. I think the one thing that I wrote, wrote and mentioned in my email was like, there was a car break in that I had. Like, so I live in a big city and my car was parked out front. My boyfriend was sitting or sleeping over at the time. And we heard the car alarm go off at 2 in the morning. And I looked out the window, he looked out the window. We saw the guys running away, so I went into fight or flight. I am pretty calm in those situations, which I think is a skill that I've learned from trying to be like, opposite of my dad, for example. And so I remained pretty calm, ran downstairs, opened the door, saw that it was my car, and we inspected the situation and I ended up just running back upstairs. He wasn't like as, as freaked out as I was because he's had this happen. He lives in another metropolitan city and his car has got broken into before. So I think his perspective was like, okay, this happens all the time, but to me, this is the first time it happened to me.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

And so what I really needed was like, him to show up for me in the moment. And retrospectively he didn't show up for me the way that I wanted him to. And it really triggered me.

[Nick]

How did you want him to show up?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I needed some type of like, like support, like just even like a hug or like some type of comfort. I know it was the middle of the night, but like, I went out and taped my car.

[Nick]

Did you communicate that?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

He came down with me, but he didn't come outside with me. And then like, the cops here, they don't come quickly at all. They take like a few hours. And he wasn't even very thrilled about me calling cops. He's like, there's no point in calling them. I'm like, I need to call them because I need to put a police report in so that I can, you know, put it through my insurance and everything. And so he went back to bed when. And I was obviously like, shaken up. And instead of waiting for the cops with me, he went back to bed. And it just like really kind of upset me. Like, I didn't in the moment realize how upset I was or what I needed.

[Nick]

But, like, have you communicated that.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

It just sat with me to him. Sorry.

[Nick]

Have you communicated that to him?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Like, yes, we have. So that was some. Yeah, we. We eventually talked about it. I tried to, like, sometimes I try to, like, give it some time to think, think through. If I'm actually that upset about it, it. I think I sometimes also try to, like, just get over things when they actually are affecting how I'm feeling in the relationship. So I realized that it was still, like, sitting with me and, like, not in a good way. And so I finally brought it up to him. And, you know, he was apologetic, he's very patient, and he's very good at, like, listening. And so we did work. We did talk about it, but, like, that's just an example of, like, anything anybody could do something like that. It's just like, it freaks me out of, like, oh, my God. God. If I'm in a relationship with you, does that mean you're not going to show up? Like, does that, like, is this a sign? And so, like, anything like that that happens, it, like, triggers me. I really am trying to figure out why, what.

[Nick]

And what did you say to him and what did he say back? And do you feel like it's been resolved?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I'm having these residual feelings. After the car situation, I felt very alone in the moment. I felt like I really needed you to be there for me. Me. And I know that I don't communicate like that I'm extremely stressed out or very anxious, and I. Maybe you didn't realize what I needed, but, like, I just needed some form of comfort from you, and I didn't receive that. And I felt just like, alone during and then alone after it. And I just felt like you kept dismissing the way that I felt because you kept bringing up your experience. Like, you kept.

[Nick]

Yeah, that seems really. That's a. Sounds very valid and sounds like you communicated that very well. What did he say?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

He understood and. But he was like, you know, I came from a place of, like, it was a crime of opportunity. Not. Not necessarily a crime of, like, passion or anything. And I. I think I understand that too. So I think.

[Nick]

But your point was he's right to, like, logically, you understood his point of view. You're not denying that, like, he's been kind of desensitized to that kind of violation, but, like, he didn't empathize with it being your first time. And regardless of how he felt about it, like, you know, you wanted your man to step up and. And emotionally be there for you regardless of how he felt about it. And you're hoping next time he does. And do you feel like he. Do you understand? Does he feel like he understands that rather than I do? Explaining again why he thought the way he. Like, it's not about why he wasn't wrong to feel the way he felt. Felt. Yeah, he was. He made his feelings more important than your feelings in that moment and chose to not just, like, be there for his girlfriend when she needed some emotional support.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Absolutely. And that is the one thing, like, I felt like when I left the conversation. I did feel like he was being a little defensive in the beginning, but then what. What really helped was, like, the next day he sent me a really nice, like, long text saying, you know, I've thought so much about this, and, like, I'm. I'm. I'm just so sorry that I didn't show up for you the way that you needed me to.

[Nick]

Awesome.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

And so that was good. That's what I. Like, that's really what I needed to hear. But just, like, I feel like in. In my past relationships, like, and a little bit in this one, sometimes I just feel like I expect. I try. I try to, like, not expect crazy things from them, but what I'm willing to give is what I kind of expect in return. And, like, for me, I try to look at it this way. Like, is what I'm asking them something that I'm willing to give, and usually the answer is absolutely 1000%, and I already am. So I'm feeling like in. In most relationships that I've had, the men aren't showing up the way that I'm willing to. And it's. It feels like there's this, like, imbalance of, like, effort. And I just. I'm wondering if I'm the problem, like, of, like, am I expecting too much? But, like, at the same time. Time, I'm not asking for anything that I'm not willing to do and am not already doing, if that makes sense.

[Nick]

Yeah, that. That's great. But what's. What's the problem?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I mean, just that's. That's in, like, a lot of scenarios, like, how much time I'm willing to spend, how much I'm willing to go.

[Nick]

Visit them, or you have your expectations of yourself and. And your hopes of how your partners are, and I'm that thing that's great that you check in with yourself about your expectations to wonder if they're Reasonable. Most of the time that's just a matter of opinion and perspective or just preferences. This situation, your boyfriend didn't meet your expectations when it first happened. You know, you were disappointed. You sat with it, you. You process it. You still felt the way you did. You felt valid in your feelings. You communicated that effectively. He heard you, he processed, he listened to, took some time, responded, affirmed your feelings, and then acknowledged that he was not only he was disappointed in himself and I guess in you're both guys waiting for the next time when hopefully there's not one. Well, I mean, it might not be a hopefully, certainly a break in, but a time in which you feel a certain way. And he, he doesn't. Like, he doesn't have that same feeling, but he recognizes that his girlfriend needs some emotional support and validation and comfort, effort, even though he doesn't need it. And that's what you want, right? That's a good and healthy relationship. That's the most we can hope for. Having our partners magically just do the right thing every time. The first time is great, but, like, kind of unrealistic. I mean, yeah, you don't want a boyfriend that you have to like, train every little thing. But I'm guessing this guy, your current boyfriend, wouldn't be your boyfriend if, like, he was like, he did everything wrong, but you almost want him to do everything right. And then you get frustrated when he doesn't and kind of annoyed that you have to occasionally explain yourself.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Right? Yeah. And I guess that's where the problem, like, I don't, I don't know what the many, many times that I've had to bring things up of, like, in, in this relationship and in other ones. And it feels like I'm constantly having to, like. And I don't feel like it's anything crazy. Like, it's just like this rubbed me the wrong way or, you know, I'm communicating that this made me feel a certain way, or I'm feeling like the effort is lacking here. Like, whatever it is, I'm. I feel like it's consistent in every relationship that I'm in. And then it's just like, I don't know, because I see all these people that are like, getting engaged and getting so what's married and understand.

[Nick]

How do they know that it's consistent? How do you know? I mean, no one's perfect. Yeah, I don't, I don't. I don't know how everyone knows, you know, it's just, just, you know, just. And people often get it wrong, you know, for me, it's like, Natalie made me feel like whatever we go through, and we've been through a lot, that she made me feel loved and made me feel like she wanted to fight for that love and relationship as much as I wanted to. It's. And we both made each other frustrated and hurt each other and all these things that happen in relationships and with. You know, and for me, it was her willingness to do that and a bunch of other little things. Like, I never felt like I had to compete with her, which wasn't always the case with other relationships. But when you're saying, like, well, every boyfriend I've ever had, I've always feel like I've had to point out things that frustrate, like, some pet peeves of mine. Well, partly that's who you are in some regards, have your high standards. I'm sure on some standards, you're comfortable with communicating those standards and in hopes that people, you know, meet your expectations, which is normal in a relationship. And again, back to, like, what are you wanting? Are you wanting, like, how you communicate it and how they receive? You know what I'm saying? Like, you're just like, I never want to do that again. No one's perfect. Eventually, you know, you might get in a relationship where it's just like, well, we've never fought or had it, like, well, that just maybe there's just a lot of excitement and lust and the honeymoon phase is just longer. But at the end of the day, if you are comfortable being your truest self with your partner, then that's gonna annoy them. It's just like, we're all annoying and. And finding the things you love about them regardless of the fact that they annoy you is a good place to start. But, like, you know, there's no guarantees, but, like. Yeah, I mean, it's just. Yeah. I don't know how that correlates with your relationship with your dad, you know, but.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering if it is. And that's. I guess the, like, sometimes I wonder if it is or if it's not or if I'm just, like, looking for a connection as to why I'm, like, not sure.

[Nick]

Yeah. Part of me is like, you know, we're getting into the whole, like, I'm not a therapist, and I don't. I'm just not my position to diagnose you and things like that. But you still have some resentment and frustration with your father, so you should work through that, for sure. My very unprofessional read on this is that, like, when it comes to the. Who your dad is as a person and who he's chosen to love, you might need to give him a little bit more grace than you're giving him and have a little bit more acceptance for his shortcomings than you're willing to give him. And if there's some things that you still feel hurt by that you haven't got off your chest, by all means, address that with your father. But the way you're taught, it's like you just to have. Have decided not to let some things go. You can't change the past. And I don't know what you're. What he could or should say that would, you know, really, like, it's. You know, there's. Again, there's some. It's the principle of it. Type of energy you're giving. You know, you come across as someone who has, like, you know, and I say this as a compliment, like, a. A lot of conviction and, And a. Maybe like a. You're. You're confident in what you think is right or wrong, and that's great. Right. It doesn't mean that, like, people can disagree with you, can't disagree with you, but, like, sometimes you have to let shit go, you know, like, sometimes you have to accept that people feel differently than you. You know, you've heard me say this on the. Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? And you have a lot of I want to be right energy.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I love that. Yeah, I love that quote. I do try to think about it that way. I think, like, as it pertains to my dad, like, the letting things go, I think I've let a lot of it go. I think the one thing that's, like, hard is that it's continued into his current relationship, too. And, like, I really care about his partner. I'm very close with his partner.

[Nick]

Fair enough. But that's not your. You can't make that your problem. You know, like, you. That's the fixer in you. And again, like, that's your choice. If you want to have a relationship with his partner and side with his partner, you can do that. But as a choice you're making, you're not obligated or whatever. And again, you do not have to, like, take all the choices your dad makes and you're not going to. And it's not your job to fix him. And if you want to be your dad's therapist or moral compass, you can be. But I. I think you're just better off than just having him be your dad and accepting him as a, as a flawed man. And you can't change his perspective and you can't change a lot of things about your dad. You have decided to make some of those problems your problems when they don't need to be your problem.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I think that's a fair, that's a very fair thing to say. Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. Because like, honestly, I'm hearing a lot of positive how you care. You know, it's just like you have one, you have a boyfriend. It sounds like it's overall going well and you shared a story about some conflict that you experience and how you guys both handle it. I don't know. I don't have really any notes for either of you, you know, like, so, like, you know. Yeah, there's no guarantees. You know, like, being in love is a leap of faith. Getting married's an even bigger one. Having children, you know, having children. And like, all you can do is every day wake up and either literally or kind of figuratively check in with each other and make sure you, this is a relationship you still choose to be in. And I guess when you choose to get engaged and married, it's the trust that this person wants to keep choosing you for the rest of your life. And then alt, you know, like, obviously like your dad kept a very big secret from your mom and like, if you have, have some baggage or some like childhood trauma from like the fear of like, you never really know who someone is and is this guy holding baggage from me, then you should definitely work through that and you know, see a therapist for that and, and work on those issues.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

But yeah, I definitely don't think he is for one. But like, we, him and I, we both got out of long or it was. His was more of a long term relationship. But the person I'm with now, like, he got out of, I think it was like a six year relationship before me and I got out of that. I think we were together for a little over a year, but ended differently. And like, that was something like, I feel like we almost trauma bonded in the beginning about it. Like, and then we actually have both had quite a year of change, like a ton of change, job change. He moved locations for me, he moved here pretty much for me from a different city. So it's just been like a whirlwind. And so I feel like now I'm finally like, like after the whirlwind is settling down, trying to like sit here and be like, okay, we're getting to that year Mark, now what? And I feel like there's this block in my mind of, like, how do I get over the hump of, like, seeing a future of this person and not trying to think about everything that's gone wrong or every hardship we faced and try to, like, think positively about a future and, like, if I see myself having kids with this person, because that's the. That's the risk you. You, you know, have to take when you're dating somebody. Orders, you kind of have to, like, not know. But I do feel this pressure of, like, I should have an answer for him.

[Nick]

Well, it seems like more like you want to figure out if this guy's gonna hurt you or not. And unfortunately, there's no way to guarantee that because he doesn't have to be a bad guy for his feelings to change and him to, like, hurt you and break your heart. But that being said, like, it hasn't even been a year yet. And what happens in a year and a day? Nothing needs to happen. You can just keep enjoying the relationship. You're only 26. I'm. You want to get married or have kids or what conversations you're having. But, like, that's all it is, is a conversation you have with him, you know, and if you two stay together, then you will probably get married and have kids, if that's what you want for yourself sooner than if you guys break up, because then you'll have to be single again and meet someone else and then develop a relationship. Like, I didn't choose to wait till I was 40 to have a kid. It's just how my life played out. And with hindsight, being 2020, I'm really happy with how it has. But, you know, like, you can't avoid frustration and pain and things like that. And I think, you know, I empathize with, like, it sounds like you had a tough childhood in a lot of respects. And. But, yeah, like, you also have some good things. You know, you do have a father in your life, which sounds like despite all his flaws, you feel like he loves you and you have a relationship with him, and that's, you know, better than a lot of people. Yeah, you know, it's better than a lot of people. People. And not that, like, you. You don't have the right to be frustrated, but, like, I think you just need to chill out a little bit.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah. Good assessment.

[Nick]

Be happy when. When good things are going and. And check in with yourself and your partner when things feel disconnected, and that's all you can really do. And try not to Add unnecessary pressure on yourself or the relationship or him if it doesn't need to. And try to be mindful of when you're projecting some stuff you need to work through onto, you know, him or your friends or, Or. Or your dad. And then ask yourself sometimes, because I think you have a habit of. Of doing this is like, why am I addressing this? Is this something like, for example, like, your car got broken into, your boyfriend didn't step up the way he did, and if this is a man I want to keep dating, potentially get engaged to, whether it's two years from now or five years from now, does he have the capacity to make me feel safe and supported? That's an important thing to address.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah, that's. I think that.

[Nick]

Yeah, the question bringing up, like, why your dad didn't do or do things in the past or like. Or, you know, like, it's certain things just because you think he should have and he hasn't yet. What is me confronting this situation gonna accomplish? Am I. Is it gonna help me move forward with this person? Or am I just gonna feel validated and right? Or am I just going to get the closure I've deemed myself, like, worthy of getting?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I think you're right. I think when you. When you mentioned, like, have those conversations with your partner, like, that's. I think what we're doing now. And this is kind of why I called in. I'm just like, we have a question of, do you want kids? Do you want kids with me? Do you want to get married? Do you want to get married to eventually me? Like, those are. I mean, again, he's a little bit older, so those are the questions that are being asked, and those are the conversations that we're having. And so that's where I'm coming into, like, I think all these things are coming to a head. And so I'm trying, like, I don't think, like, two years ago I was thinking or worried about all these things, but now I'm starting to, like, worry about, I think a healthy way too big.

[Nick]

Like, do you want to have kids and do you want to have kids with me?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Those.

[Nick]

I know two very different questions. I don't know.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I don't even know, period if I want kids. Oh, that's the problem.

[Nick]

So then why are you asking him?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

No, he's asking me that.

[Nick]

Oh, okay. He's asking you if he wants you. He wants to have kids with you.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Well, just, like, because of the trajectory of the relationship, it's gonna. It's gonna eventually get a Point where talk about moving in together and all those things.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, you know, you. You know, if he knows he wants to have kids and you're not sure, that's definitely a potential problem because that would put that in the non negotiable.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I don't have an answer.

[Nick]

Why don't you think you want to have kids?

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

I think like, again, just like the fear of like, not only just having a kid, but, I mean, it changes your life, but also just having a kid with somebody, you know, that's maybe not the right person or somebody who will change and not eventually not show up the way that they need to as a father and a husband, I mean, that's, I think where I'm was, you know, coming to this with all.

[Nick]

Of that, the husband part, more unpredictable. But most of the time, you know, not always, that's for sure. And I understand why you have second guesses because of the relationship with your father, but like, you know, it might not work out for you guys, but like, if this is a guy who cares about being a dad and talks like a person who looks forward to being a dad someday, chances are whether God's how things work out for you, you'll be lucky enough to have a good co parent and hopefully, obviously you want more for yourself. But listen, it's not my place. From personal experience, if having kids is something that you think about, don't make that decision off of fear.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Yeah, I appreciate all of your. Your advice today.

[Nick]

All right, well, thanks for calling in.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Thanks, Nick. I. I've always listened to your podcast since like day one, so.

[Nick]

Well, I appreciate you listening and keep us updated. How things going. I' to learn in maybe like a month or two, like how you process this conversation and how you applied it and if it's changed anything. But it seems like you do a good job of checking in with yourself. I think the big again, the big takeaway is like, be mindful of like, is it worth it? Do I need to pick this fight? Do I need to be right and validated, or is this important for me to address? Yeah, and I think a lot of times you're doing the former when. When you should be doing the ladder.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Absolutely.

[Nick]

Okay. All right, good luck.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Thank you.

[Nick]

All right, take care. All right, thanks for the call.

[Caller 1 (Margaret)]

Bye. Bye.

[Nick]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements, or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsync Synads, go to libsynads. Com. That's L, I B S Y N Ads. Com Today.