Nigel Barker Talks America's Next Top Model Doc, Love Is Blind with Kevan, Traitors and RHOBH

Summary

The Viall Files – Reality Recap: “Nigel Barker Talks America’s Next Top Model Doc, Love Is Blind with Kevan, Traitors and RHOBH”

Date: February 17, 2026
Host: Nick Viall (with Natalie Joy and “the Household”: Sierra, Justin, Mary, et al.)
Featured Guests: Nigel Barker (America’s Next Top Model), Kevin (Love Is Blind S10)

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Episode Overview

This edition of The Viall Files’ “Reality Recap” is packed with discussion and commentary on some of the buzziest reality TV happenings:

• The explosive new Netflix docuseries "Reality Check" on America’s Next Top Model (ANTM) and its cultural legacy
• Deep-dive with former ANTM judge Nigel Barker reflecting on his experience and the new doc
• “Love Is Blind” Season 10 recap, featuring an interview with Kevin, one of the season’s most talked-about cast members
• Strategic chaos in “The Traitors”
• “Real Housewives of Beverly Hills” (RHOBH) drama breakdown

The crew brings humor, nostalgia, and thoughtful reflection, especially around the shifting standards of reality TV.
[00:00–16:00]: Banter, Valentine’s Day, household updates, and segue into reality TV topics.

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Valentine’s Day & Household Banter

[01:09–13:00]

• The group shares light-hearted Valentine’s Day updates, matching outfits, and inside jokes about “absolutely the not.”
• Merch drop and anticipation around the new “household” sweatshirts.
• Baby talk: Nick and Natalie are leaning toward gender-neutral names.

Memorable moment:
Nick on decisiveness:

“When she goes, ‘absolutely the not,’ I find it to be hot. I think it’s the decisiveness. Anyone else?” (06:00, Nick)

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Reality TV News Round-Up

“The Traitors” – Dynamics Shifting

[15:25–22:30]

• Rob is becoming the house’s confident leader—almost "too" cocky.
• Kristen is sharp and onto Eric, but their low-key “quiet game” strategy is debated.
• The cast is, in Nick’s words, “happy to be there,” which divides those playing to win versus those along for the ride.

Quotes:
Nick on Rob’s gameplay:

“Rob is…we’re getting cocky Rob right now. He’s really feeling himself.” (15:42, Nick)

Sierra on group psychology:

“It must be terrifying to have the realization that the person you’re looking to for guidance is the traitor. So they’re all just pretending he’s not because they can’t emotionally handle that.” (16:53, Sierra)

Housewives Energy at "The Traitors" Reunion

[22:30–26:20]

• Reports that at the reunion, Lisa Rinna confronts Colton, Candace comes for Rob, causing unfollows and online drama.
• Audience debates: Should the “Housewives” style even be brought to contestants from other reality genres?

Nick’s challenge:

“Was it inappropriate for them to bring the Housewives energy into people who like aren't Housewives? Or do you think Colton and Rob are a little thin-skinned?” (24:04, Nick)

Natalie’s take:

“Absolutely not. I think getting read to filth by a Housewife—especially Candace Dillard of all of them—it's going to be tough, it's going to be rough.” (24:04, Natalie)

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America's Next Top Model: Reality Check Docuseries & Interview with Nigel Barker

The Documentary’s Legacy and Controversies

[27:00–33:00]

• Crew discusses the shocking re-watch of ANTM, the shifting culture, and questionable moments (e.g., direction on model makeovers, psychologists not intervening, Tyra’s involvement).
• Now, actions on the show—previously normalized—are seen as “sick” or “problematic.”
• Anticipation for Nigel Barker’s insights as the “kinder” judge.

Natalie reflecting:

"As a kid watching it, not thinking…not thinking that some of these things were as big of a deal. And then to watch it back now…oh my God…I remember these scenes. But learning that producers were there filming the entire thing and no one once stepped in…everyone sat by, like, watching, kind of pushing her into that…” (29:13, Natalie)

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Interview: Nigel Barker on ANTM, the Doc, and the Fashion Industry

[35:15–68:52]
Key Segments and Insights:

Nostalgia, Blind Spots, and Industry Standards

• Nigel admits he only saw what the public saw—judges were kept apart from contestants outside photo shoots/judging.

“I was watching the documentary and I was thinking to myself, wow, that actually happened…all I saw is what everyone else in the real world saw, which was on TV.” (36:24, Nigel)

• On his “nice guy” reputation and criticism he received (or didn’t):

“I've always tried to be a sort of voice of reason and constructive of my criticism…most of the sort of criticism out there was not sort of aimed at me specifically.” (41:33, Nigel)

The Show’s Influence and Problems with Industry Gatekeeping

• ANTM did help open doors for plus-size and diverse models, but the industry still often favors ‘cookie cutter’ types:

“There are superstar full-figured models, Ashley Graham, for example…But now, but…back then, when we were doing the show, that was not the case.” (45:17, Nigel)

• Truth about power on the show: Tyra called most shots, even over which photos aired:

“The best pictures were picked by Tyra. And that’s how that works. Every photographer that worked on the show’s best shot was picked by Tyra.” (39:19, Nigel)

The Reality TV Star “Curse”

• ANTM and similar reality shows often left contestants with notoriety but little actual industry access—viewed as ‘reality stars,’ not true models.

“Even on Top Model you notice that our winners often don’t do as well…the runners up…sometimes it would almost be a mark on you versus it being something brilliant…” (57:21, Nigel)

• On fashion’s snobbery toward reality TV celebs:

“Fashion is sort of often considered a serious business…The fashion industry frowned upon [our show], didn’t like us making fun of it or also suggesting that we could find a beauty…in the middle of Arkansas…They didn’t want us telling them what beauty was…” (53:11, Nigel)

Fun Rapid-Fire Fashion

[64:41–67:53]

• Skinny belt over skinny scarf
• Not about "fashion crimes": The only mistake is not owning your choices

“All I like is…if you can’t pull it off, then don’t do it. So don’t half-ass it. That’s the crime for me.” (65:10, Nigel)

• Not a fan of cargo shorts for men; white after Labor Day is fine
• Men in flip-flops? “If you’ve got good feet, sure. If not, no.” (66:37, Nigel)
• Wants androgyny to make a comeback in fashion

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Documenting the Reality TV Transformation: Reactions & Reflection

[72:41–77:59]

• The crew wrestles with how to judge past shows by today’s standards.
• Acknowledgment that early 2000s TV (“The Swan,” “Biggest Loser”) was far more toxic than just ANTM.
• Body shaming was an industry and show-wide norm, not just an ANTM issue.
• Important to document and discuss these eras to avoid glamorizing their problems and help ensure future shows are safer and more equitable.

Justin’s summary:

“We were so young watching those [shows]…it did affect the way I view food or my body…It taught us about the media, which I think that had a pro…but at the same time, it did it in a negative way.” (73:19, Justin)

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Love Is Blind Season 10 Recap & Interview with Kevin

[78:38–107:13]

Season 10 Drama and the Kevin Triangle

• The group loves this season for its realness and unpredictable drama.
• Kevin’s love triangle (with Kia and Tyler) is dissected—crew agrees he “fumbled” it by over-communicating and being indecisive.
• Panel highlights how the pressure-cooker environment and inability to see partners messes with people’s heads.

Sierra’s take on Kevin:

“Sometimes you just—shouldn’t say things. He was just talking too much and…saying too many things in the pods.” (105:17, Sierra)
Nick (on men opening up):
“We want our men to be more open and communicate more, but only if…” (105:32, Nick)

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Kevin Interview Highlights

[82:28–104:56]

• On his expectations vs reality:
  Kevin was surprised how quickly deep feelings developed and how much the experiment changed his perspective on dating.

  “It was just like, wow, I can’t believe I’m actually really able to connect with someone without ever seeing them…and it really changed my perspective on just dating in general.” (83:04, Kevin)

• On the love triangle & self-reflection:
  Kevin admits he was not direct enough with Tyler, wished he’d handled communication better.

  “Looking back on that…she had every right to have that reaction.” (85:25, Kevin)

• Regrets:
  He should have made a choice earlier, owning that both women taught him about himself.

  “Absolutely. I feel that I should have…I shouldn’t have had both of those connections going into engagement day.” (92:13, Kevin)

• On post-pod feelings:
  After Tyler left, he did not want to propose to Kia, clarifying for viewers. Says he is not still in love with Tyler, although he has respect and admiration for both women.

• Advice for daters:
  “Follow your heart, man, and trust your gut…if you really, really have those feelings for someone, put your foot down. Let them know.” (97:56, Kevin)

• Favorite fellow couple: Victor & Christine (faith-based bond), “it’s so awesome.”

• On watching himself back:
  He stopped after his journey ended. “I was kind of tired. I just haven’t gotten a chance to. And I was kind of beat.” (102:32, Kevin)

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RHOBH Recap and Rapid Reactions

[110:29–132:17]

• Most recent Beverly Hills episode breakdown:
  • Rachel Zoe-devised “Parent Trap” for Kyle and Dorit.
  • Amanda’s “manifestation” dinner divides the crew: is it woo-woo or just her brand?
  • Sutton’s name change/annulment subplot is discussed as a rare, real, vulnerable moment.
  • Mo’s growing role as confidante; the PK/Dorit drama’s messiness.

Mary on Amanda’s manifestation powers:

“She just, she literally probably doesn’t know how not to…use her story as a way to motivate and inspire those who are looking to be inspired by her. But it doesn’t land with anyone who’s…like, I didn’t ask you to inspire me. We’re just having dinner.” (124:26, Nick paraphrasing Mary)

Sutton’s name change, per panel:

“She’s doing something really brave…just, like, love that for her, you know?” (133:02, Sierra)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• “Rob is really the Housewives slayer.” (15:40, Natalie)
• “You know, sometimes you gotta…if you’re gonna fuck around, you gotta find out.” (24:32, Sierra)
• “The best pictures were picked by Tyra. And that’s how that works.” (39:19, Nigel)
• “We were reaching an audience of 100 million people. Meanwhile, no one was buying magazines anymore. They kind of needed us…we were more in Vogue than Vogue was at the time.” (53:00, Nigel)
• “Follow your heart, man, and trust your gut.” (97:56, Kevin, on dating advice)
• “We want our men to be more open and communicate more, but only if…” (105:32, Nick)
• “At the end of the day, none of this helped any of these women with the modeling career…they would not let me go to castings because I was seen as a reality TV star and not as a model.” (77:02, Natalie)

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Final Thoughts & Episode Close

• The hosts reflect on reality TV’s growth, the healing power of re-examining problematic media of the past, and the changing fortunes of reality stars in today’s culture.
• Tease for tomorrow’s “Going Deeper” episode with Rosanna Pansino.

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This summary captures all significant points, character dynamics, and standout moments—ideal for listeners who want to catch up on Reality TV’s hottest topics and the complex, candid reflections of its stars both past and present.

Transcript

[A]

After busy days and full schedules, it's the quiet moments that matter most. Pur's well Being collection brings intentional fragrances into your home, helping everyday life feel lighter, softer and more enjoyable. No routines, no overwhelm. Just sense that support how you want to feel. Explore the [e-mail] Moods the Balfhause is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing a budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try that progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliate its prices and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files Reality Recap edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by my magical, wonderful, supportive wife, Natalie Joy.

[B]

And I am joined by the household, Sierra, Justin, Mary.

[A]

Valentine's Day, everybody.

[B]

Hey, you said it right. Because sometimes with an end, sometimes it's times.

[A]

Sometimes it feels like it should be. We have an extraordinary episode lined up for you today. So many great shows are out there. Everyone's talking about them. We have the documentary of America's Next Top Model that's now on Netflix.

[B]

That's Reality Check that.

[A]

If you guys have not seen that, it is. If you have ever watched a single episode or even heard about America's Next Top Model starring Tyra Banks, you are going to want to check that out. We also have season 10 of Love is Blind out there and rocking and rolling and this one is a good one. It's, it's. Well, we're really enjoying it. We also later this episode have Nigel Barker from America's Next Top Model. He was one of the main characters of the show, one of the celebrity judges, and he is with us to talk about his experience and the documentary that is obviously sweeping the nation. We also have Love is blind season 10 out as well. And we also have Kevin from this season to talk about his love triangle and so much more. Also, Traders is out there. Everyone's, you know, everyone's still talking about that one. So lots and lots of great TV to get into. Plus we have the Housewives of Beverly Hills. Real ones, much more. Also, don't forget VI Files plus is now AD free. Every VI Files episode you can listen to AD Free and VI Files plus. Plus get your reality recap Deep Dives where we dive really deep into some of your favorite reality TV shows like Love is Blind Season 10 as well as our update specials. Your favorite updates from your favorite Snake Callers and your pop culture roundups. All your favorite topics we didn't get to talk about during the week, so be sure to check it out. Just go to vilefiles.com to sign up. Also, don't forget, Val Files is going live with the upcoming cast of Temptation Island May 6th in LA. So if you want to join us in the upcoming cast of Temptation island, it's going to be a wild, wacky, sexy, fun, live event. Bring your friends, bring yourself, bring whoever you want at. Netflix is a joke. You can get tickets now. Well, they are available again. Go to valfalls.com did you guys have a good Valentine's? You guys do anything? Mary's hair got pinker.

[C]

My hair did get pinker.

[D]

The season of love.

[E]

I was going to say she's feeling the love.

[C]

I'm feeling the love.

[F]

I love Valentine's Day.

[C]

Me too. Even though I hate love. I love Valentine's Day.

[E]

Why do you hate love?

[D]

Why?

[A]

Why do you hate love?

[C]

No, I don't.

[D]

She just. She just hasn't experienced it. Once you experience it, you will love love.

[A]

I wore my Justin Bieber approved red cardigan sweater.

[B]

Oh, you were very.

[F]

I saw that you guys matched.

[G]

What?

[F]

What was the. Natalie, that was for sure on purpose.

[A]

Well, no, no, I picked that up myself. Dad. Dad dressed himself that morning.

[B]

Well, we all obviously were, like, feeling the love. We were feeling the pinky and the reds. And so we all kind of dressed on theme.

[D]

Q.

[A]

If you guys haven't noticed, we're wearing some new merch that is actually available this Thursday. And it's the greatest merch ever created by any podcast ever, certainly by us. Really proud of this, Natalie. And the team did a great job. All I did was give my opinion. But if you are looking for a really classic sweatshirt that says, like, oh, I got this at a vintage store from the 80s. That's exactly what you're gonna get with the.

[B]

Finally have your household.

[A]

Yeah, your household sweatshirt. How's your heart and the household? I can't tell which one I like the most.

[F]

I will say Danny's a very harsh critic when it comes to, like, fashion in general. And I was wearing the household sweatshirt and he was like, where'd you get that from? And then he also was like, are you gonna get me a hat? Because I want to wear it.

[C]

I love them.

[A]

Well, unfortunately, not everyone can get one because the supply is very limited. So get it while you can.

[B]

There is a countdown. You can sign up to the countdown to be notified when the merch is live. With the link in our bio. So sign up, put your email in. Fall in love with the merch just like we are. You're welcome.

[F]

I love a countdown.

[A]

I've been, I don't know where this need to go. I, I, you know, I realized something that I really enjoy that my wife says.

[E]

And what's that?

[B]

This is, I feel like that weird kink. This is like, I don't know.

[A]

Is when she goes, absolutely not.

[B]

Yeah, it's absolutely the not.

[A]

Absolutely the not.

[F]

Oh, he loves it so much that.

[E]

He doesn't even know what it is.

[A]

When she goes, absolutely the not. Yeah, I find it to be hot. I think it's the decisiveness. Anyone else?

[F]

Yeah, I mean, she's definitely like, say it, Natalie.

[B]

Absolutely the not.

[C]

Awesome.

[B]

What did you feel?

[C]

Awesome, period. Will you marry me?

[A]

I just, it's just always nice to know where she stands, you know? And that, and that is backed by a lot of decisiveness.

[F]

What warrants and absolutely the not versus.

[E]

What did you ask me?

[A]

Maybe a fashion thing. Question.

[B]

Oh, did y' all see what Nick is wearing on his feet?

[F]

No. No, we actually can't see your feet.

[D]

The van.

[A]

The van showed up.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

Are they.

[C]

And are they true to size?

[A]

They are true to size if you're honest with yourself.

[C]

Oh, got it.

[A]

These are a ten and a half, which my whole life I've been like, I'm an eleven. And when it comes to, like, nice, I'm an eleven. But I, I've realized, you know, like, I think, I think ten and a half is really the most honest. Did your feet shoe size, which 10 and a half and 11, just sound so different? It's like, it's like the difference between 6 foot and 5. 10.

[E]

It's funny because for like, I guess for like, men, Maybe it's like 10 and a half may sound like a big difference from 11, but it's the same way that I feel when I'm like eight and a half versus eight, where I'm like, okay, Bigfoot, you know.

[C]

It'S me where I'm like, where I'm like, no, I'm a seven. I'm not a six and a half. Yeah, I am. I'm a big girl.

[F]

No, my, my feet grew during pregnancy. Half a size and. Natalie, did that happen to you?

[E]

Leia gave me all dead.

[C]

But then it.

[G]

That's normal.

[A]

But did it go back?

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

No, I am now. Absolutely the not. Now I am an eight and a half, and I've always been an eight. And none of my shoes Fit.

[A]

Now when. When you say they grew, like, length.

[F]

I don't know. My shoes just don't fit the same way that they did before. I think they grew in length. It's a thing. Apparently. It is a thing among all the other weird things that could happen to.

[D]

You when you're pregnant.

[A]

For the pregnant people out there.

[F]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So not only do we have to endure everything we have to endure, we also have to get rid of all of our shoes.

[F]

Or you could be me and just keep squeezing into your old shoes.

[A]

That's why Carrie never had kids.

[E]

Literally too expensive. Nice joke.

[C]

Sex in the City, baby.

[A]

She's like, I'm sorry, there's. There's too many shoes here.

[B]

She's like, all of those Manila Blahniks, they're not.

[C]

I have.

[B]

I'm not getting rid of them.

[F]

Nope.

[A]

I want to. I. We're going through a lot of baby names right now. I wish I could sample some with you guys.

[F]

Can you please.

[D]

Can you sample the ones that are. No.

[F]

Goes sample.

[C]

We have.

[A]

We're really centered around gender neutral right now because there's one name in particular we feel really good about. And it's. It's. It's. It's. It's in the general neutral area. And so we're playing around with a lot of general neutral.

[B]

Well, also, like river neutral.

[C]

General neutral.

[A]

Gender neutral.

[D]

General and neutral.

[C]

General. General neutral would actually.

[A]

General. It's. General neutral kind of works. General, yeah.

[C]

General neutral.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

General neutral works.

[B]

Speaking of Valentine's Day, did anyone go see Wuthering Heights?

[D]

Wait. Yes. Can I have the floor for a second, please?

[B]

Justin, take it away.

[D]

Why did they market this film as a Valentine's Day extravaganza event?

[A]

Because, like, I mean, I can tell you without seeing the film.

[D]

Morning.

[A]

Read the book and know nothing.

[G]

Right?

[A]

Because it's. It came out on and around Valentine's.

[F]

Day, and that's what he's saying.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Marketing is intentional.

[F]

They decided to release no because I'm.

[D]

Part of the population and I take responsibility for this. That had no idea what Wuthering Heights was going into it. But I was like, Margot Robbie. Jacob Elordi. Sexy music Charlie XCX Amazing. I was like, I'm so into this. I'm going to go into blind.

[A]

Because you think of the word hot sexy people. You know, it's like, those are hot sexy people.

[D]

Literally. But first of all, who in this room has read this book or knows the story?

[A]

What is it about?

[B]

I have not read this book, but I have Heard that women not at all like what the movie is.

[D]

No. So it's so different from the book, but also the movie is so, like, you leave it being like, speechless, but not in a way that you believe in love. Like, I feel like I was like.

[C]

So it's an Emerald Fennel movie.

[D]

Yes. Yeah. And it wasn't as horny as I wanted. Like, I was going into it wanting more.

[C]

Creator, director, Emerald Fennel of Wuthering Heights.

[G]

That's right.

[A]

Is it giving. What was the last Jacob Elardi movie that everyone loved?

[C]

And I hated Saltburn, which was Emerald.

[A]

Was it giving Saltburn?

[D]

Yes.

[C]

There's a Tina Fey actually did a bit where she was like, oh, you're gonna have to act surprised about the next Emerald Fennel movie when it takes a sexually violent third turn in the third act. And that's what I heard did happen.

[D]

Yeah. Just you leave it kind of being like, what was that?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Like, not in a way that you believe in even unrequited love. Like, you're kind of just. And then you read the synopsis of the book and you're like, this is even more traumatizing and different and like, you know, the characters. And the whole time I'm just like, Nelly girl.

[E]

Like, mentally abusive. Emotionally abusive.

[G]

Just.

[D]

Yeah. And it was just like, how was this Valentine's Day movie that everybody was going to watch?

[B]

Well, someone posted a video being like, I guess people are mad about the casting.

[A]

The casting.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I believe Catherine was supposed to be like this young, like, stringy haired.

[G]

Yes.

[D]

Younger girl.

[E]

And she's like a teenager.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I saw someone post, like, if I were in charge of casting, and it was like, Catherine Blake Lively, Heathcliff, Justin Baldoni.

[C]

You know what I did on my Friday night before Valentine's Day is the full Charlie soundtrack did drop. So I got a little wine drunk, cooked myself pasta. Noise canceling headphones blasting that soundtrack. Oh, my God, I think I ascended to another plane.

[D]

It is good music.

[B]

You're not, like, nervous to wear noise canceling headphones?

[F]

She wears them all day.

[D]

Oh, I'm nervous.

[C]

Oh, well, I have, like, roommates, actually.

[B]

Never.

[C]

Well, I also have, like, roommates and stuff who are with their, like, because.

[B]

They'Re going to be significant others.

[C]

And then it was just me.

[D]

Natalie, I want to know why you don't do it. Because I also don't wear noise cancer.

[B]

I have intruder syndrome. And I'm constantly thinking that someone is trying to put a bag over my head and throw me in their van. The killer and it's like, oh, if I'm wearing noise canceling headphones, they're gonna be like, we don't even have to, like, be sneaky.

[C]

We can just.

[B]

You can't hear a thing.

[D]

Yeah, it's kind of like that movie Hush, like where you don't know what your surroundings are.

[C]

Yeah, well, I like to live in fear.

[D]

Old.

[C]

Thanks.

[E]

Well, I watched a movie over Valentine's Day that I thought was actually really good. What did you watch? Eternity with Elizabeth Olsen Teller. It's really good. Just saying if you want to.

[D]

Like, it's one of the highest viewed movies on Apple TV right now. Right. Well, that's it.

[E]

Because that's what I was looking for. I was like, I want to watch a rom com with Connor. But like, not something that's too cheesy, but I want something that's like, uplifting. Feel good, but it's not depressing. Not a P.S. i love you. Not something where we're like crying or don't know what we signed ourselves up for. And we did Eternity. And it was a very, very, very cute comedy.

[A]

The only TV we watched were some reality tv and in Homeland, where we are watching Homeland, but I did on our way to brunch on Saturday, Natalie, a beautiful, lovely Valentine's Day song mix.

[F]

Very nice. Wait, what did you guys get each other for Valentine's Day?

[D]

I do want to know. Yeah.

[A]

And I. I've heard this song before, but I just realized how much of a banger it really is. But Lover by Taylor Swift is an all timer and we couldn't listen to.

[B]

The rest of the playlist.

[A]

I just kept playing it over and over. It reminds me of like a Levi's vintage black and white jean commercial.

[D]

Yes. Yeah, I see it.

[A]

And like when I was a young man, every fantasy that I ever had when it was like a mute cut of like whatever lady who showed up in my life, it was always in the lens of a black and white vintage Levi jean commercial. And so thank you, Taylor Swift, for channeling my, you know, nostalgia.

[D]

It's a good.

[A]

It's a really good song. Shout out Charlie's 50s. I really enjoyed it.

[D]

Wait, so what else? Natalie, you made this playlist. What else was on there?

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I searched on Spotify. Valentine's playlist. Yeah, no, I don't have the time to make a playlist.

[D]

I did want to know more about your Valentine's Day. So what did you guys do? You went to brunch? Where was the brunch?

[B]

We Went. Well, we went to our go to spot, which is in Silver Lake called Marco Polo. And it's. It's like attached to a hotel. And so it's never really that busy, but the outside is just a vibe. It's such a vibe. You feel like you're in south of France. Maybe Greece. Greece.

[A]

It's giving Greece.

[B]

It's giving Greece for sure.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

With great food, but, yeah, really good food. And we pull up, drive all the way there, pull up their door shut. I'm like, oh, my God, what's going on? We go inside and our server, who's always our server is like, our power's out.

[F]

Oh, no.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[F]

Not a good day for that.

[D]

How do we bring it?

[B]

Yeah, we're like, what can we do here? So then we go to all time in Los Feliz. Have you ever been there?

[C]

So good.

[A]

Very good.

[B]

Saw the guy who plays in suits.

[E]

Anyways.

[B]

Well, I saw him sitting outside with his daughter. And so we went and had brunch. And then Nick had some insane flowers delivered for me and River.

[E]

Nice.

[F]

I saw that on your stories. That was really, really sweet.

[B]

River, like, loved it. It was so sweet.

[E]

Her first Valentine.

[B]

Well, second, but. Well, I don't think you did anything.

[E]

For last year, did you?

[A]

Nothing memorable.

[B]

I think I had to share my flowers with her.

[A]

All right, so we jump into some traders before we get to Nigel Barker and talk some America's Next Top Model.

[D]

I think I can stop watching here without my housewife. I was like, why am I watching the show without my girls?

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

Rob really taking a shift.

[F]

Rob is really the housewives slayer.

[A]

Rob is. He's really feeling himself. Yes. Yeah, he is. We're getting. We're getting cocky, Rob right now.

[F]

He is so cocky. It's too much. It's like, how is Maura Nazi? It's like, he might as well be wearing traitors on his forehead.

[A]

But I mean, honestly, it's giving. They all know and don't care because they're just trying to be in the house of Rob.

[E]

Well, Morris did call it out, too. She's kind of said that at the. At the table at the breakfast in the next morning, she was like, hey. And, like, it was kind of weird that she kept calling you out. And he was like, yeah, I think she just did that to, like, throw off the scent or whatever and then. But I feel like more is kind of like seeing it.

[G]

She did.

[B]

She know. I felt like I was shocked that nobody was like, rob, why did Candace put your name down Twice. It's like nobody asked.

[C]

I think it's. It's. What's interesting to me is that, like, I. Robb is. Robb has kind of positioned himself as a leader within the castle. And so what now, psychologically, even if he. I don't know if he did it on purpose or not, they all look to him, and it must be terrifying to have the realization that the person you're looking to for guidance is the traitor. So they're all just pretending he's not because they can't emotionally handle that.

[F]

The fact that Kristen is onto Eric and is still just immediately so not.

[D]

Based off of nothing.

[F]

She's so smart based off nothing.

[B]

This is exactly what I said was gonna happen. I don't think Eric can not be in his head. After he becomes a traitor, he's gonna.

[A]

Start changing his behavior in little ways that are. That are being noticed. It's.

[F]

He's more quiet.

[B]

Yeah. He was like. He said he was like, I don't. I'm so nervous to speak, so I'm just not gonna say anything. And it's like, well, I don't know.

[A]

How he probably was participating. Maybe we didn't get to see it because the edit, but, like, he's calling.

[B]

People out of the round table.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Remember, I heard Tiffany's laugh or whatever.

[F]

He was always wrong about what he was seeing and hearing, but he was saying things that should have been his.

[D]

Easy out with Kristen is be like, I've said too many wrong names. I just want to, like, change my gameplay.

[F]

And, like, I honestly don't know how he recovers. I don't know how he recovers, because if he sends. If they send Kristen home, Mark was there. Do I think Mark could be easily convinced of literally anything? Yes. But he was there, and he could easily be like, Kristen warned us that if she was gonna go home, it was Eric.

[D]

There needs to find.

[A]

You have Rob. You have Rob and a bunch of people, minus maybe Kristen, who are happy to be there.

[F]

Oh, my God. The whole Tara and Johnny being like, you guys, we're best friends. I'm like, I. I forgot that they were even keeping that a secret.

[E]

I was right.

[A]

Like, I was like, is that a secret? Do they not know?

[C]

Obviously, like, so funny.

[A]

They didn't announce this clearly because, you know, they did it at the round table. But, like, I think everyone knew it.

[F]

Was their strategy going in the whole time that they were going to pretend not to be, which was, like, a weird strategy.

[D]

They noticed that they were touchy and close now, but they played it wrong because they could have been like, we know that you would think we're suspicious by being close, but that's why we are close out loud, you know. But they didn't say that.

[F]

They're, I mean, they're, their strategy is all over the place.

[E]

One of them are going home next week for sure. Because now they just, they just sent one of the wrong traders home and.

[D]

They'Re like, they're not going to kill Kristen. They're going to kill Tara or Johnny.

[E]

100%.

[C]

Let these, you know, you know that meme that's like, it's, it's the two dumb telling each other. Exactly, exactly.

[A]

Like that's them.

[C]

And I'm like, yes, keep them there. I want them to win by being stupid and loving each other. Like, that's all I want. Justice for Tara.

[D]

Actually Natalie might be killed or murdered.

[B]

I feel like she's really just, I feel like her name was thrown around at like the second round table and she's just gay.

[A]

Yeah. It'll be interesting because if you're Rob, I Do you think. I don't think there's a world where, where Tara and Johnny figured out it's Rob, they could get, I mean, and by figured out, I mean like confident. Like come in with. We know here, here. Rob's a traitor. Here's why. As opposed to just throwing out names. And if you're Rob. Yeah. At this point you just get, get rid of all the actual threats. Kristen, Natalie. I think those are the two probably strongest game players in the castle right now. And who else is left? Mora, Johnny, Eric and Rob.

[F]

Is that it?

[A]

Well, Eric's now a traitor.

[F]

Who else is there?

[A]

Maura, Johnny, Tara and, and Kristen, who's.

[D]

A Dancing with the Stars guy.

[F]

Mark. Mark.

[A]

Mark, Right. Yeah. Those four in particular, maybe we haven't seen it, but they, they, they haven't offered. They look risk averse. They look like they want to avoid conflict. They are just happy to be there. And I don't, I think Rob knows he has them wrapped around their fingers. You might as well just keep all of them and get rid of the. You know, Kristen and Natalie have proven throughout this game that they will speak up for themselves and they will. You know, they're still actually hunting the traders and I don't think Mark and, and Maura and Johnny and Tara are really honestly that concerned about who the traders are.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

So I would keep them and, and get rid of Natalie and Kristen.

[D]

I think Mark and Kristen are going to win. No, I feel it in my Bones, maybe more.

[F]

I think that they honestly need to get rid of Kristen because even again, I think that they could convince Mark of literally anything and he's the only one who heard her warning about Eric.

[D]

I think Mark and Kristen are playing the quiet game. Like, I think they actually know.

[B]

I feel like Rob is going to. I feel like Rob's going to lean in and be like, we should. We should take out Kristen and then it's going to fall back on Eric and then Eric's going to get eliminated and then Rob's again only traitor.

[F]

It's. It's Rob's game. It's just. It just is at this point, like, there's literally nobody even.

[A]

I mean, he's like, he's laughing around them.

[F]

Yeah. It's ridiculous. He's getting cocky. You're right, Nick. It's like he, he literally knows that he's won this game and he knows he could literally tell everyone that he's a traitor and they would still keep him in the game.

[E]

Also, every single person is like, I trust you, Rob.

[F]

I.

[E]

Every single person has like a one on one with him to discuss their strategy. Being like, I trust you the most out of anybody. And I'm just like, I wish that you all just talked to each other and be like, who do you trust the most out of anybody?

[F]

You know what was weird? I actually was very confused by why did Natalie ask Rob say that he had the dagger at the round table? First of all, she said it out loud.

[A]

It's like, because I think she, like.

[E]

Wanted them to know that, like, she doesn't have it or that she's not like, I think that's her, like, trying to be like, I'm as faithful as possible. And they might think that I have it. If you don't say something.

[D]

Remember she had it originally. Yeah.

[F]

But nobody knew.

[H]

Nobody knew that.

[A]

I'm saying.

[D]

I think it's part of that too, though. She wants, like, it's her play to have.

[E]

I think it's her. Her like the one idea that came to her head that was like, maybe if I, if they know I don't have it, that they don't think I'm a traitor, that they would know I'm a faithful.

[A]

Well, there's a lot of talk online regarding the reunion of traitors and apparently the room, you know, the. I think at this point substantiated rumors is that Lisa Renner comes. Lisa Rinna comes for Colton and Candace comes for Rob. So much so that apparently Colton and Rob have unfollowed those subsequent ladies. Rob has unfollowed Candace and. And Colton has unfollowed Lisa. What do you. So what, what do we think of that? Do we think. Let's. Colton aside specifically with Rob, do we think this is, you know, Rob has maybe a little too much thin skin be, you know, and he should just kind of know what he signed up for when it comes to dealing with housewives and knowing this is a reunion and things are going to get hot and steamy and accusations and criticisms will be thrown his way because like having met Rob and interviewed Rob, he is a gentle guy, you know, he is definitely, it seems almost like an oxymoron because he's, you know, reality TV star. But he is someone who like has come onto these shows. Specifically Love Island. Obviously it's a love competition show. It's a love competition show. There is like natural drama that comes with like opening up your feelings. But like that's different than say like a housewife who is like, like looking for the drama and things like that. So how do you guys see it? Was it inappropriate for them to bring the housewives energy into people who like aren't housewives? Or do you think Colton and Rob are a little thin skinned?

[E]

Absolutely not. I'm like, listen, I think getting read to filth by a housewife, especially Candace Dillard of all of them, it's going to be tough, it's going to be rough. And I'm like, the thing is Rob hasn't had a reunion like this. So it was like Love island reunion especially his season was like, are you still going to be wearing the overalls? It's not like, like, why did you make me feel this way? Or why did you double cross me? And there's gonna be name calling. There's gonna be. He's not, he's not prepared.

[C]

Sometimes you gotta, if you're gonna fuck around, you gotta find out.

[D]

I was gonna say don't give if you can't take. But also like I think Andy said it a couple reunions ago where he was like, this show is about cultural difference where it's like you have the housewives coming from such a personal show and usually that's against the game players, but at this point now it's against Rob who's playing like a game player and also Colton who's playing like a game player. So like you're gonna just get that natural like push.

[B]

Also to Lisa Rinna's point, I think she was on Watch what Happens live and it's like you, Colton you asked to see the housewife in me. You want to see it, so I'm gonna show it to you.

[A]

Exactly. And, you know, apparently a lot of Lisa's questions are centered around Colton in Traders talking about holding a housewife hostage.

[F]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Which it's like, can't be using, you know, nodding it. Not getting into the weeds of. Of Colton'. Like, some of those accusations against Colton, specifically the alleged harassment of using fake accounts to go after not only his current fiance at the time, but former castmate. That is a behavior that has never really been addressed that is potentially risky for your other castmates.

[F]

Right.

[A]

So it's. You know, I think there's a lot of fans and a lot of people who learned about Colton's history, specifically his castmates who I think do have a right to ask some of these questions, regardless of the fact that he wants to, whether he wants to address it or not.

[B]

So they just filmed this. There's not, like, a release date yet?

[D]

No, not yet, I don't think.

[A]

I imagine it'll be right after. Oh, like. Oh, within a week following the finale.

[D]

I mean, also for the Housewives fans that have seen Lisa Rinna at a reunion, like, she. Yeah, she goes for the jugular. So I can only imagine, like, she knows what she's saying and she doesn't hold back when you push, like.

[A]

Right. Ever since Colton's been on the show, there it is ignited past conversations about his time on the Bachelor. A lot of those conversations from people. Again, people a lot of feel. A lot of people feel like it was never really addressed and that when it was addressed, it was kind of always kind of wrapped up in some of his other challenges that he's faced. And it almost kind of comes across as a justification or an excuse. And Lee says ever since leaving the castle has, I'm sure, seen these comments about a bunch of fans demanding answers. Demanding answers. And I think Lisa took it upon herself to say, well, if you want answers, I'll go get them for y'. All.

[D]

Yeah. Nothing's off limits for Lisa Rinna.

[C]

True.

[B]

Well, we were also binging Reality Check, the new America's Next Top Model documentary, which is a show I grew up on. It's a show that made me want to be a model as a young, young child. And it is crazy to re. Watch it all back.

[E]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

If you guys haven't watched it yet, I mean, even if you didn't grow up on it, I mean, everyone's seen the memes. I, you know, I've I had seen episodes here or there, but I wasn't, say, a fan like my wife or some of y'. All. But I mean, if you've ever watched any reality TV show ever, I mean, it really gets into the history and just the cultural differences that we have today versus when reality TV was made. And just kind of how, you know, even as someone who, like, came up in the Bachelor franchise, you know, back from 2014, it's just like, like, that conversation about, like, the right or wrong versus, like, a producer's role and having conversations with cast and how much is, if any, crossing a line between encouraging people to, if nothing else, to not kind of listen to whatever voices are telling them. I don't know if this. I don't know if I should do this. I don't know. I might regret this. And if nothing else, a reality TV's producer's job is to quiet those voices in your head in terms of wondering if maybe this is a good idea or not.

[B]

I mean, like, the. The way that they positioned certain things on one cycle, you know, like with Danielle and Joanie having them. Their makeover be like, go to the dentist and get your teeth fixed. Like, danny, we're gonna close your gap. And she's like, no, I don't want my gap closed. Like, I. I love it. And they're like, you're not gonna get any jobs. You're gonna be sent home. Like, you've got to get the.

[F]

That for.

[B]

So then she basically gets it closed a little bit. And then like, two C. Two cycles later, they're like, we're gonna make your gap bigger. And it's like, what? Then there's Whitney, who they, like, shamed for being plus size. And then the next cycle, they're like, we're gonna make you gain weight.

[A]

No, it's like, as if she's like, on a football team. And they're like, you need to bulk up if you want to play offensive line.

[B]

Like, you're too average. You need to pick a lane. It's like this. It's watching it. But I remember, obviously, as a kid watching it, not thinking, you know, I'm sure it gave me my own issues, you know, but, like, not thinking that some of these things were as big of a deal. And then to watch it back now and be like, oh, my God. I remember these scenes. Shandy cheating on her boy, quote, unquote, cheating on her boyfriend and having to call him, and him calling, like, his voice cracking and being like, you, you stupid. Like, I remember all of that. But, like, learning that producers were there filming the entire thing and no one wants stepped in being like, hey, maybe this should stop. Maybe this has gone too far. Like, everyone sat by, like, watching, kind.

[A]

Of pushing her into that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Situation.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

It's just.

[B]

And then being like, she. When she's like, I want to go home. They're like, sorry, like, you can't. You can't. She wants to call her boyfriend. They're like, you can't, you can't. And then finally they're like, okay, you can call him, but we have to film it. It's just like, ugh.

[C]

And then the.

[B]

The conversation that Tyra had within the next day of, like, talking about her boyfriend cheating and, like, it was just clear as day. How, like, sick. I don't know.

[A]

It'll be interesting what people have to say about Tyra's. Well, certainly her involvement in the show. But obviously, coming up short, we do have Nigel Barker, who of. Of a lot of the people. I mean, certainly was a judge, but, like, of the main characters probably had the littlest influence of how things. How would you say it?

[B]

He definitely was, like, the kindest out of all of them, for sure.

[A]

But it'll be interesting to see what fans think of what Tyra had to say in this documentary and whether they feel like she is owning up to what she needs to own up to. You know, I'm curious what many of you think. We'll dive into it a lot more on Wednesday and we'll have more people from the documentary as well as this documentary unfolds and more and more people start talking about it. But up next, we do have Nigel Barker joining us. I will say he is someone who. Well, I didn't watch a lot of America's Next Top Model. I always had a big man crush on him.

[E]

He is a handsome man.

[A]

I just like, you know, I like, you know, girlfriends I would date, would watch. It'd always be on. And I mean, like, that is the coolest looking guy I've ever seen.

[E]

Best accent.

[A]

He's also very accurate accent. He's a photographer, you know, six foot four, this shaved head, but looks like the perfect haircut for him, you know, because he has a perfect face.

[E]

So true.

[A]

Anyway, he joins us up next to talk about his experience on the show and what it felt like for him to watch it back. So many interpersonal relationships and so many thoughts and feelings. I think many of this cast is having, as we all live back some of these both iconic and kind of devastating moments of reality. TV and we get to hear from Nigel himself. You know the little rush you get when you score a big deal? It's a thrill. But now you can get upgrade. Not just because you're saving money, but because you can get cash back on stuff you are already buying. As soon as you start using Rakuten, you'll watch the cash stack up. Feels like a tiny win every time you check out. Same stores, same cart, just smarter. So listen, like if you like to shop like us and you're gonna buy it anyways, you might as score a little extra cash on the side with Rakuten. Rakuten is the most rewarding way to shop because you can stack cash back on top of sales and deals at your favorite stores like Sephora, Target and Instacart. All places we shop at and all places we are earning money back. So it's easy to use and you get your cash back sent to you through PayPal or a check. Just a real check. Just mailing you money. The idea is simple. Stores pay Rakuten for sending them shoppers and Rakuten shares the money with you as cash back. Think fashion, beauty, electronics, home essentials, travel, dining and so, so much more. It's amazing how many partners Rakuten has something for everybody. Men, ladies, the kids. Everyone will be earning cash back just by using Rakuten. Sign up is absolutely free and just takes seconds. 17 million Rakuten members are already saving and earning. In fact, members have earned over 4.6 billion with a B in cash back. Now it's your turn to start. Start stacking sales on top of cash and feel what it's like to know you're maxing your savings. Download the free Rakuten app or go rakuten.com to start saving today. That's R a K u t n rakuten.com it's officially the month of love and we know you want to celebrate the one you love the most. Your dog celebrate the one you love the most by giving them the best, highest quality ingredients. With Ollie. Yes, it's kind of meal the dogs actually get excited about. It's real fresh food that they'll love and devour. Which is the best way to show them love every day. Because if you're giving them everything, the least you can do is make dinner really, really good. But what's even better than that is that it's good for the human grade. Recip recipes backed by vet nutritionists and crafted with culinary experts. Dogs love the taste. Even the pickiest eaters will show more excitement during meal time. They have tailored meal plans to meet your dog's specific needs, specific portion meals and mess. Free packaging comes with a scoop for every serving in a storage pup container. For zero fridge stink. The Ollie app offers on demand health screening where you can tap real experts for pup peace of mind. Use the data from the Ollie pack to develop new recipes and products for your dog. Jeff and Steve love the beef and swee potatoes. It's packed with protein, vitamins and minerals. Celebrate your number one Valentine, your greatest love your dog. Head to ollie.com v I a l l and tell them all about your dog. And use code V I A L l to get 60 off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O L-L-I E.com V I A L L and enter code V I A L L to get six 60 off your first box. Nigel, welcome to the show. Good to see you again.

[H]

It's a pleasure. Good to see you too.

[A]

I had the pleasure of doing Nigel's podcast a couple years ago and it was a, it was a big moment for me. I don't know if you remember, Nigel, but I told you that I had such a man crush on you as a kid. You know, it was like when I was a young man, I was like, that's the type of guy, you know, I want to grow up and act and look like. So it was, it's, it's still cool to have a chance to talk with you because you were definitely someone who, I was a bit of a role model for me.

[H]

You're very sweet, but that, that all that does is really make me feel incredibly old.

[A]

Nigel, I really appreciate you taking the time and this has been a really incredible documentary. Have you had a chance to watch it yet?

[H]

I have indeed. I've seen all three episodes.

[A]

Really curious what fans and the audience are going to think. To me, it really is not just about America's Next Top Model, but really just about television and our culture and reality TV specifically. It just like how different things were back then and kind of what we've learned from our past mist both from a cultural standpoint and just from a TV making standpoint. But I'm curious from you watching it back, someone who was obviously front and center, very much involved in the show, how did it feel watching it back and what were some of the biggest surprises for you?

[H]

I mean, first of all, it was obviously incredibly nostalgic for me to watch it, you know, and my personal memories of the show are very positive. Yeah, I had a great time on the show. I loved it. It was really, you know, wonderful for me to be able to take my family with me, all of that kind of piece of it. So, you know, but I was also as one always is, you know, you're acutely aware of what's happening around you to some extent. And contestants who had bad times, hard times, difficult times, that's sort of. At the same time, it's somewhat par for the course for all reality television and shows of that ilk. You know, I didn't know the ins and outs of what was happening to individual cast members, you know. Cause we were very much kept apart from all of that. They very much wanted the judges to be impartial. So I had no idea what happened outside of the photo shoots and outside of the judging room ever. That obviously is not the case for Tyra and the producers, Ken and what have you on the show. So I guess one of the biggest eye opening pieces of it were that, you know, I was watching the documentary and I was thinking to myself, wow, that actually happened. Cause all I saw is what everyone else in the real world saw, which was on tv. I watched it for the first time alongside everybody else when they watched it on tv. And I oftentimes didn't know any more about it than that. And I kind of almost carefully maintained that I was never one to sort of hang around after sort of the judging was filmed or after a photo shoot to sort of gossip about what was going on behind the scenes. I always felt that it was, was, you know, not my place and not my sort of moment to do that. And I would kind of move and leave straight after filming almost deliberately. I think one of the big sort of eye openers too was listening to Jay, you know, Jay Manuel, who, you know, I've known now for 25 plus years. And I really didn't realize how much he was going through it on the show, to be fair. You know, And I felt bad for him. Immediately after I watched it. I called him and I said, God, Jay, I really wish I had known more about what you personally were going through on the show. And it's funny because I knew certain things. Like I knew when he wanted to leave the show, for example, and then I knew that he couldn't, but I never knew why he couldn't. And he was very private and he was largely because he was trying to sort of Protect certain people on the show and stuff like that. So I think that all that kind of thing was quite. Was very interesting for me and an eye opener, you know.

[A]

Yeah. I'm curious and something I've learned being a part of reality TV on both sides of it, whether you're a judge or like a host of a show, there's often a misconception with the audience that you have a lot more insight, power and control than you actually do. Obviously, it's interesting to hear your perspective, watching it back. But over the years, for better or for worse, did you have to kind of explain to fans who would maybe wrongfully assume that, like, you had more control or more decision making when it came to how things were put together on this show?

[H]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's. That's sort of been par for the course. I mean, I think for me specifically, you know, having been the photographer on the show and obviously a judge, I would always get questioned over, say, the choice of the photographs that were being used for the girls. Was it really her best picture? Was it? Didn't she? And I've said this before publicly, but in my opinion, sometimes it wasn't the best picture. However, that comes with the caveat that as a professional photographer, even when I shoot for a leading magazine, I don't get to say which are the pictures that are being used. I just shot, you know, a cover of a magazine just last week, and I absolutely think a different picture should have been used for the COVID Like a completely different picture. But did I get to have my. I got to have that picture made and they're going to use it somewhere, but they're not using it on the COVID They had very different ideas as to what they wanted. They liked the story they were trying to tell and what that was all about. And, you know, and that is the real world. And so now looking back at it from a reality television standpoint, in many ways you're like, well, should have been the best picture. The thing is, it's an aesthetic and it's a personal opinion. And the best pictures were picked by Tyra. And that's how that works. So every photographer that worked on the show best shot was picked by Tyra. Once in a while, we got a say in it and we were allowed to sort of potentially tag our favorite shots. And that's normal, by the way. That's normal photography behavior. As in photographer would tag their favorite shots, say they're top 10, 15, 20, whatever, do a first edit and then you hand over your pictures. But this is the behind the scenes piece where the audience out there just thinks, well, goodness, you clearly had it out for her. And there were times where I'd even say there was a better shot.

[B]

I know there was a better shot. Tyra kind of opens up, I think, in the first episode about 2020, and how that everyone was at home and kind of rewatched America's Next Top Model. And that's kind of where, you know, TikTok was booming. You know, the criticism all kind of started coming out. Did you feel that as well in 2020?

[H]

I mean, you know, my personal character on the show is myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[H]

So what I mean by that is, is that I've never been a sort of cruel person. You know, I'm not really sort of a bitchy type of person. I've never. It's just not me. And I. And I never. And I wasn't portrayed that way on the show either, luckily for me, to some extent, you know, I mean, I. I've always tried to be a sort of voice of reason and constructive of my criticism. And so, you know, I think that just from the nature of who I am on the show too, most of the sort of criticism out there was not sort of aimed at me specifically, you know, although I knew it was very popular during the pandemic and what have you. And you know, I. What I got was a lot of photographers actually sort of saying. Saying I picked up a camera for the first time because I watched you on the show and you know, a lot of models saying, like, I. I started modeling, I wanted to be a model and because of that show and, you know, and can I be photographed by you and I would love to do one of your photo shoots and those sorts of things. I, you know, I didn't and I. But I was aware of clearly of the backlash as far as, you know, some of the things that were done and said that clearly wouldn't fly today, you know, and that. And qu. And sometimes, to be honest, you know, even then at the time, I remember thinking to myself, wow, was that. Did someone just say that? You know, did, you know, Is that really. That's not really okay, guys, like I, you know, but, you know, that you're in a room full of people who are sort of like just looking at you and acting like it's all okay. And so you sort of think to yourself, well, there's enough adults in the room here and sort of executives from networks and what have you and, and psychiatrists and psychologists and, you know, we had all the things, you know, on that show that you're like, well, okay. Well, it must be okay, or it must be fine, or perhaps I'll edit it out anyway, or, you know, until you actually finally see it, you know. And, you know, I think that when you are judging people, certainly on a beauty fashion show, and I've done a lot of these, right? I was host of the Face with Naomi Campbell for two years, and I've judged Miss America, Miss Universe, Miss World, Miss USA Day. I've done just, you know, I don't know, two dozen variations of America's Next Top Model all over the world. From Britain's Top Model to Australia's Next Top Model to Russia's, you name it. Finland's on and on and on to America's top model for 18 seasons. There are certain things that people say and do that when you're. It's very personal, someone's look and feel and when you say something about someone, you know, I was. I've always tried to be. Be sensitive to the fact that they're a human being. And I think that that sometimes does get lost in, you know, when people, they switch off and that. That sort of, you know. And in the fashion world, I remember as a model myself, back in the day, people would say things to you like, you're too tall, your arms are too long. You're, you know, you haven't got a big enough chest. You know, you're not dark enough. Where are you from? You don't really look, you know, and I'm part Sri Lankan, for example, and then say, well, you don't look at Asian, you know, or. And you look Hispanic and just wild statements that would get thrown at you that you're sort of, as a young kid, you're like, trying to process it. You're like, oh, I am part Asian, but I don't look Asian. What do I do about that? Oh, there's nothing I can do about that. You know, I'm too tall. I can't shrink. I don't know what to say, you know, I mean, I'm not big enough, or maybe I should push work out more, you know. But the industry as a whole has a lot of fraud rules, you know, and so dealing with this industry is a tough one, certainly publicly.

[A]

Yeah. Well, to that end, I'm curious, how much actual impact do you think this show has or had on the modeling industry as a whole? Looking within and saying, maybe it's kind of fucked up or messed up that we operate things this way or do you think it didn't?

[H]

No, no, I think it had a huge influence, actually. I mean, and even if you listen to the modern models in the documentary too, and on the show and after the fact, full figured plus size, all these sort of expressions for someone who's not a size 0 models of that ilk, if you like. They exist now and there are agencies based around them and there are divisions within the biggest agencies that have full figured models. And there are superstar full figured models, Ashley Graham, for example, and women of all, all sort of colors and diversity are sort of celebrated in a different way. But now, but sorry, but rather back then when we were sort of doing the show, that was not the case. It was, you know, really like sort of for us to have sort of Whitney on the show who really, really wasn't really even full sort of a full figured model. She was sort of, you know, and this was half the problem is that back then when they'd sort of talked about someone being full figured or whatever, it was like, how do you. It was still cookie cutter cutter. And as in you were either sort of sort of super skinny, sort of size 0 to size, say 4 on the biggest, or you, you know, if you were to be full figured, that was really plus size and they wanted you to be size sort of 12 upwards. And so anyone in between was sort of in between. You know, now it's a lot more kind of. There are sort of variations within that and you can sort of, you know, and athletic models and, and you know, and sort of muscular models if you want even, even female muscular models to, you know, the definitions have changed and the look has changed, but you still see, you know, Runway shows with major designers today who have, you know, very much cookie cutter looking models, all white, no color, no shapes, you know, and it's. So as much as changes have been made, and many of them for the first time on the show, publicly, at least on a show like America's Next Top Market Model, the influence, you know, wanes. It comes and goes. Yeah, there's no doubt that there was a lot of influence made by Top Model, but I think at the same time, you know, it's, it's, it's up to every designer and every person out there to keep demanding it and keep making it happen.

[B]

I also feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that was kind of the show's reasoning for maybe some of the negative traits. It was kind of like, well, this is just how the industry is. Like, this is how you will be treated Outside of this show kind of thing, like, you know, they're not gonna accept you, they're not gonna hire you.

[A]

You won't get, like a modeling boot camp.

[B]

Yeah. And that was kind of their.

[H]

You're right. You're right. I mean, we say it oftentimes on the show, and I've written about it certainly as well, that what we were trying to help people sort of see and do is hear what would be said about them after they left the room if you were to do an audition or recovery. And, you know, and the casting director was just to say, you know, thank you very much, goodbye, you know, and you don't get the job, and you don't know why. It's hard to improve. So what we would, you know, the idea behind it, whether it worked or not, and quite frankly, it clearly, it got, you know, went too far in many a situation where we were sort of. We were trying to parlay to the girls, but also to the audience at large. These are the kinds of things that people would be then saying about you when you left the room.

[D]

Yeah.

[H]

And if you're able to look at it from 30,000ft fee, perhaps you can pick out the pieces that would help you either change or improve or get better at that or, you know, know what was wrong or know what's needed. That being said, because it's a reality TV show, it goes to extremes and. And, you know, and it gets exaggerated and it gets over the top, and people play into it and they. They ham it up and. And. And then feelings get hurt. And I think that's, you know, what happened. But, you know, at the same time, oftentimes feelings were getting hurt, but people also found it funny. And so. So when people find things funny and sort of humorous despite someone's, you know, being criticized, it kind of almost gets encouraged.

[D]

Yeah.

[H]

And I think that that's part of the issue.

[A]

I'm curious, Nigel, kind of going back to that cookie cutter conversation we were having, why do you feel like the industry operates that way? Ultimately, the modeling industry is for the consumer. You would think, right? You're selling clothes, you're selling photographs and things like that. And you mentioned, like, you know, the 0 to 4, then, like, maybe 10 to 12 range. And you mentioned, like, everyone in the middle is kind of forgotten. But I would think that, like, the majority of the consumer out there is the everyone in the middle. And it's just like, why, when you go to Runway shows, do you see people who, like, you know, beautiful, fascinating, very unique looks, but, like, not often relatable.

[H]

And I think there's a combination of things. I think one is basic advertising rules. As in, you go to a hotel website, they show you the best room on the front of the website, they show you the nicest part of the, of the hotel. You want to buy a car, they show you the top of the range car with all the trimmings. And that's, that's what brings you in. It's like no one ever shows you the average of what's sort of in the middle. They always sort of show you the best of what they've got to reel you in. And then you end up getting the sort of the smallest room in the hotel, but you're in that hotel. It's a sort of a similar sort of situation with fashion and beauty and modeling. People are they potentially aspire to look younger because youth apparently is better, you know, when, you know. Luckily some of these things are changing. I mean, you are seeing older models now and some of the supermodels who are still modeling in their 50s, 60s, 70s now and looking wonderful. But that being said, there's also incredible amount of retouching happening and AI happening and everything else happening. But there is also a practical piece of this, you know, something which is overlooked over and over again, which is fashion designers can't sort of fiscally or financially afford to make sizes in every size just for press. And you know, there's a sort of a standard size that they make everything in for their samples. And that's what goes down the Runway, that's what then gets photographed for photo shoots. And unless they go out of their way and say we are going to make this in this specific size for these models, you know, to do a range of sizes, which some designs do. And it's not nobody, but most average, you know, people out there don't have the budget to do that. And that cookie cutter size size that is meant to be a sort of one size fits all is basically anywhere from a size 2 to a size 4. It's a, it's a height of 5 foot 9 and it's a size 9 shoe for a woman, right? So if you fit that, you are like cookie cutter average. And then it depends on how bridge you are and all the rest of it. There are obviously always people who are taller to us. I'm six four. I was always a giant as a male model, funnily enough, 6 4. I used to pretend that I was 6 4. My agents would write on my card, 6 2. If I said I was 6, 4. I would never have anything to wear.

[G]

Right.

[H]

My, my wife was also a model. She's a size 0, but she's very slim. She always has been. It's just genetically the way she is. She oftentimes didn't fit the clothes. They would pin them and make them tight on her so they could actually. So that actually looked like it fit her. And she suffered from the fact that they were opposite, that clothes were always too big for her, you know, but because they only really make them in this specific size. Now again, you know, these are the things when you tell people this in the real, they kind of scratch their head and they get confused and they don't necessarily understand. But it's literally down to the fact that to create a collection of clothing can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. So then to make multiple sizes with the hope that you're going to find people, they just sort of. And the agencies know that. So they go out looking for models who are 5, 9, size 2 to 4 size 9 foot. And if you fit all those things, that's what the average sort of commercial model is.

[A]

Nigel, you mentioned that at times, in reflection, you feel like your time in America's Next Top Model negatively impacts. Impacted your career as a photographer. Can you speak on that a little bit more?

[H]

Yeah, no, it's funny. It hasn't. It hasn't. Right. So obviously there are certain things that you have to parlay your success, however it is into future successes and other opportunities. And certainly no one, please feel sorry for me because I've had an incredibly lucky and successful career throughout my career. However, when you work in the fashion industry, again, this industry that is incredibly, has been and was and is incredibly sort of exclusive and much of the fashion industry is still held behind sort of velvet ropes. They don't look kindly upon prime time television, you know, with big commercial sponsors of the likes that we had, you know, that were considered to be sort of too commercial and almost, you know, not serious enough. You know, fashion is sort of often considered a serious business and. And we would make fun of it sometimes we would do silly, fun things, crazy things. Most of our fashion shoots and stories were based on real shoots that had happened even in high fashion magazines. But we took them to another level and then would add an element of comedy to it because we were making television. So the fashion industry frowned upon that, didn't like us making fun of it or also suggested suggesting that we could find a beauty, say working at a Duane Reade or a Walgreens in the middle of Arkansas when we were like, actually no, there are diamonds in the rough everywhere. And they didn't like that. They didn't want us telling them what beauty was or whether we found someone attractive or not. And Tyra, myself and everyone there were really actively interested in trying to sort of help people discover different types of looks and beauties. And I think just the industry itself didn't like that. So yeah, there were definitely magazines and what have you that didn't look friendly upon myself and sort of stopped working with me at one point. But then there were other people that then started to work with me. Right. So it was just. Whereas my career was on a sort of trajectory of kind of getting bigger and more exclusive and high end, you know, jobs with really well known magazines, that piece kind of wavered and then all the sort of big corporate commercial jobs came out along and things were different. I mean, you only have to look at, you know, think about who our judges and our magazines and our magazine sponsors were on the show. You know, what is it it took until cycle 12 until, until American Vogue got involved with, with Top Model. Why was Vogue so late to the party? In large reason, you know, if you looked at the numbers of their subscription, you know, we, we were, we were reaching an audience of 100 million people. Meanwhile, no one was buying magazines anymore. They kind of needed us, you know, they needed us to make them relevant. That was the irony is that Vogue, you know, we were more in Vogue than Vogue was at the time. You know, Andre Leon Talley, editor at large of American Vogue came on. Italian Vogue became our magazine sponsor. But these went. This is when our ratings were dipping.

[D]

Right.

[H]

They didn't come on and our ratings went up. They came on when our ratings were going down. They came on and our ratings still went down. You know, it didn't make any difference because young people didn't really care about what was in Vogue.

[D]

On.

[G]

Sure, sure.

[H]

You know, it was a, you know, that's when the era of, you know, social media was on, on the rise and people were looking elsewhere for their fashion advice and influences were a new thing. And all of this, you know, it was a big change. And in large part reality television was a sort of precursor to social media. You know, it was that sort of, you know, a nod to the behind the scenes and the, the brutal truth and the honesty part of it and things you don't hear normally said and you know, versus the sort of super polished, well produced, you know, end result of what you see in a magazine.

[B]

You talking about like the kind of corporate world looking at the reality television of it all and struggling with some of the jobs. Do you feel like that also happened to maybe some of the winners? You know, where it was like, oh, you're gonna have this illustrious modeling career. And then they try and it's like, oh, well, you've just been on this show. You haven't actually modeled.

[H]

Yeah, no, without a doubt. You know, it's funny you should say that too, because you know, something that not everyone knows. And I've talked about it, but before. But I happened to get my own modeling sort of career launched from a reality television show in 1989 in the UK called the Clothes Show. It was one of the very first model searches on TV ever. And I didn't win. The winner went on to have one great year of sort of modeling and then dropped out and became a police officer. And myself and several other people who were on that show. Show ended up having successful careers in fashion in general. I, you know, modeled for a while and then moved on to become a, you know, a photographer and what have you. And several others went on to do other similar things. But even on Top Model, you notice that our winners often don't do as well as the sort of runners up and the people who are in the sort of. Who just made it there. And I think too, you know, you know, you can lead a horse to water, you can't always make them drink. And by winning sometimes it would almost be a sort of a mark on. On you versus it being something brilliant. It was a sort of a first step. And it, you know, it relied heavily on the individual then knowing how to market themselves. And some of our contestants, whether they won or not, were just brilliant at doing that and knew what they wanted and used it as a stepping stone. And others, I think, either rested on their laurels or hoped that there would be more support when there wasn't any, you know, and it was a harsh reality. And, you know, and I think, you know, even when I look at my own career, that's where it was sort of a situation where I'm like, okay, so Vogue isn't going to necessarily hire me now. Although they ended up. I did end up working for them once Andre Leon Talley came on the show, but it was more a question of like, well, so where is my audience and who will book me? And you know, you do then find what that is. And at least I did and then figured that all these different pieces of it out. But it perhaps wasn't what I was expecting, but it was the risk I took. You know, I remember when I first was offered Top Model, you know, I did think about it. I was thinking, you know, this is a risk. But I knew what. What other way was there for me to become, say, a household name outside of some opportunity like this, where I was going to be, you know, in everyone's living room once a week, not just in America, but all over the world, being able to show them what I do. And I think that was an incredible opportunity. And so, you know, I was lucky enough to sort of part delay that.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

What's your relationship with Tyra Banks today?

[H]

I mean, Tyra and I are still friendly. I don't speak to her often. I normally speak to her sort of once or twice a year.

[A]

Sure.

[H]

And things come up and something happens and we. Or we, you know, we're at an event or something like that where we bump into one another and, you know, it's always been very cordial. You know, it's. You know, we've. She's not someone who likes, funnily enough to have, like, arguments or even, you know, be sort of, I don't know, have an aggressive aggro situation. And that's why sometimes on the show, when you see those moments when she explodes or does something, it's not really her nature to be like that publicly, actually, or with people. She sort of doesn't like that kind of confrontation. As for what I've experienced, and, yeah, there were some hairy times. And when, you know, when I left the show and stuff, I was definitely hurt at the time. I mean, I thought it was not handled well by the show, and we were, you know, the judges were released in the way we were. At the same time, I'm a big boy, and life goes on. And you go, okay, it's business. And you kind of. You roll up your sleeves. You go, okay, well, you know, perhaps I was a bit soft there. I just should have realized that, you know, that I was replaceable, perhaps more so than I. That than I thought I was.

[B]

Who have you remained closest with? Jay Manuel.

[H]

Jay Manuel. J. Alexander, Tyra. Paulina Porizkova. You know, Kelly Catrone. I mean, there's a lot of different, you know, people on the show who. Pretty much everyone on the show to some extent, you know, I've remained close with. But, you know, certainly the J's, I see them regularly. And Kelly Catrone, I mean, we. We all live in New York. We all still work in fashion, you know, and have done collaborations and have done other things together since then.

[A]

In terms of facing scrutiny, I imagine Tyra is probably under the biggest microscope in terms of people having an issue. Obviously, she was an executive producer. She a lot more responsibility and decision making. How do you feel like the audience watching this documentary will respond to how Tyra characterized her involvement?

[H]

I mean, you know, I think they're going to be, I mean, hopefully sympathetic to her as, you know, and. But I think too. But also I think just Tyra, her involvement in the show. She was the executive producer. It was her show and she was very, very involved. And executive producer can mean not much. Sometimes it can just mean you thought of the idea, you put your name on it. And some executive producers do very little. They sort of sit on the sidelines, even if they're a big star. But Tyra touched every part of that show. Everything we did, every episode. She knew exactly what was happening, what was going on, and it was to some extent micromanage a lot of what was happening, you know. Yeah, she didn't necessarily know what was going on as filming was happening. You know, she wasn't there in the room and you know, she was obviously she was being reported to. But, you know, she held very close reigns on what was happening, you know, and didn't really give up ownership like that. She really felt like. Because she really wanted to make a difference. And that's how it felt to me at least when I would, you know, look at her. Watch when you see someone who's really vested in something thing and cares about every move that's being made and it's there and they created the show and their name is on it and they're the front person and there's a lot riding on it. For me, I sort of. That made me even more sort of step back and go, okay, no, this is your show. I get it. And I'll do my best to support and do my role and fit in and do my best work and I'd be interesting to see. You know, I think there will always. There'll still be people who will probably say, oh, you know, so and so deserves an apology. This person deserves an apology. That. But there's also a lot of people who really loved being on the show. You know, it's not. And I think most people, when you look at the audience, look back at Top Model as one of the most fun shows they ever watched. You know, one of the greatest times they ever had, you know, watching it. The sort of negative naysayers clearly are there, and rightly so for A lot of the bad things that were said and done, but there's thousands and thousands of people who absolutely adored and loved it. And, you know, if you look at recently in the past sort of 10 days, I personally have been posting photo shoots and stories from top model as. As a lead up to the release of the show. And every post that I've done has been a collaborative post with various models from each shoot. And they themselves are happy to collaborate with me and to remember the shoot and to share it with all their fans and say nice things. So, you know, it has far from being like, no, I don't want to collaborate with you. No, I don't want to have anything to do with you, it's been the opposite. It's like they all reaching out and. And there are many contestants who are on the show who I remain good friends with to this day.

[A]

That's awesome. Nigel, this has been a really fun conversation and really appreciate your insight into everything this documentary covers and America's next top model in general. Before we let you go, we just have a couple of fashion fun questions for you.

[B]

Little rapid fire. You've been in fashion for so long. You, I feel like, are just a wealth of knowledge. So we thought we'd get your opinion opinion on some things in fashion. Whether they should go come back, whatever.

[H]

It is, let's do it.

[B]

Okay. If you had to bring back skinny belt or skinny scarf.

[H]

Oh, skinny, skinny belt.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. Worst fashion crime, in your opinion?

[H]

You know, I'm not about crimes. I'm about whether you rock the crime or not.

[A]

Okay.

[H]

So you, you know, I see a lot of people. I don't, you know, some people don't like certain things. Things I don't. All I like is it's. It's the attitude. If you don't. If you can't pull it off, then don't do it. So don't half ass it. That's the crime for me. It's like not owning whatever the decision is that you decided to make.

[A]

Like, if you're going to wear cowgirl shorts and a vest to have a strut.

[H]

Yeah. What if you're going to do like this? You know, there's something about Mary hair. Well, own it.

[B]

Yeah, own it. Thoughts on cargo shorts for men?

[H]

You know, I'm not a fan. Sorry.

[B]

White after labor day.

[H]

I think that's fine. I really think that's one of the most ridiculous things ever.

[B]

Agreed. Logo heavy or logo free? I'm personally logo free is clean girl aesthetic. Really just creativity on Mute.

[H]

The Internet thing, you know, probably, but I don't think so. I think it's boring, to be honest.

[B]

Okay, best dressed celebrity right now.

[H]

Ooh, that's a good one. I mean, I think from the men's perspective, I've sort of loved the way sort of Pedro Pascal has presented himself.

[B]

Yes.

[H]

You know, I think he's sort of. It's very, very loose and sexy and cool and, you know, but smart and it looks comfortable. I like everything about him. His hair, the whole. The whole thing that he does, you know, so he's kind of like, for me, an epitome of sort of getting it right.

[D]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Men in flip flops.

[H]

It depends. You know, there's. There's a lot of. There's. I mean, there's a lot of big photographers as well who wear them all the time. If you've got good. If you've got good feet, sure. If not, no.

[B]

If you're getting pedicures on the regular. Yes. All right, last one. What fashion trend should make a comeback soon and which fashion trend should not come back?

[H]

Oh, okay. Which fashion trends should.

[D]

Should.

[H]

Should come back? Well, you know, when I think back, you know, on my own career, you know, there was the whole sort of heron chic was given. The role, in my opinion, was like the. The. There was a lot of negative about it for the reason of the name that it was. How it was called. But what I loved about the sort of androgynous part of it was that it kind of opened up the doors for all kinds of types of people. And I. So I would love to see a little bit more of that androgyny come through again as a sort of a movement versus the sort of very obvious on the nose, I'm a boy, I'm a girl. And I think we've just sort of gone away from that. I kind of. I love the sort of. The shades of gray, if you like, of sexuality, I think in general, I think that plays. It's a beautiful thing to see. And what should go away? I don't think anything should go away.

[D]

Okay.

[H]

Bring it on.

[B]

Bring it on.

[D]

Love it.

[A]

Nigel, this has been a lot of fun and a real privilege to have a conversation with you about this show. I really appreciate you taking the time. Can people find you anything you want to promote or plug or put out there?

[H]

Well, you know, if you're going to watch our show, perhaps you should shake up one of our barker company espresso martinis. So I recently launched a. After my podcast, the shaken and Stirred show which you appeared on. I launched my own espresso martini company called the Barker Company. And you should be shaking one of these up whilst watching America's Next Top Model to really get the full experience. I promise you it'll wake you up and you'll really be on your toes as you watch the show.

[A]

And where can people find that?

[H]

So if you go to Barker Martinis.com, but also you can find it in most good stores and what have you. So it's available at almost, you know, good liquor stores and total wine and so on and so forth.

[A]

All right, Nigel, really appreciate it, man.

[B]

Thank you.

[H]

Appreciate you. Thanks so much, guys.

[A]

All right, take care. Bye bye.

[G]

Take care.

[A]

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[E]

I mean, I grew up with very toxic reality tv and I'm. I've been a reality TV junkie from the start, but it was like, we had shows like, I was like, unfortunately, during that time, America's Next Top model wasn't the most toxic of the bunch. We had a show, the swan, where they literally did plastic surgery and a person couldn't look in the mirror for three months until they were presented to the world after, like, 20 surgeries. You had I want a famous face where people would take in a celebrity's photo to, like, try to look as much like a celebrity as possible. And, like, we were told that that was normal.

[F]

There was also that show where, like, it was before someone's wedding or whatever, and they would just try to get them to lose as much weight as possible. Like a boot camp where they were, like, eating ice.

[D]

I mean, biggest loser in America's Top model. For Mary and I, we were so young watching those that, like, yeah, I know that it affected the way that I view food or, like, my body or. For sure, it taught us a lot about the media, which I think that had a pro there, but at the same time, like, it did it in a negative way.

[E]

But I'm also kind of like, where I'm like, I'm not trying to defend it by any means, but I was like, the modeling industry back then and entertainment industry in general was extremely toxic. People would look you in the face at 110 pounds and be like, you need to lose 10 more pounds if you want to work.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

And it's just like, where I'm just like, nowadays, we're like, oh, my God. I couldn't even fathom. Couldn't wrap my head around it. But unfortunately, like, that was the industry that I was like, that she, in her mind where I'm like, she looks like the villain now, but I'm like, in her mind, she thinks she's changing the modeling industry, opening it up for people that don't just look like a cookie cutter, you know, typical.

[F]

It was the acting industry, too. I was told by an agent one time, I'll sign you, but if you can lose X amount of weight. And then we were like, leaving. He's like, I'd offer to get you ice cream right now, but, like, you.

[C]

Know what I mean?

[A]

Like, how old were you?

[F]

17 or 18?

[B]

No, I was 15, 16, living in New York. And I was considered plus size. And I was size four maybe. And they. I. I would Go into all these castings and stuff, and they'd be like, you're too big for us. And I am 16 years old being like, I'm 100. Like, yeah, 18 pounds. What do you mean?

[C]

Well, I mean, I think it's.

[F]

That's crazy.

[C]

I don't know. I think the importance of this documentary is just like, it was reality tv. And I think reality TV now is a little bit more structured and a little bit more, like, elevated, constructed reality. But when you have something like America's Next Top Model, obviously it's a competition show, but the reality of that show is the way you perceived these women. So it's like, I think it's important to like, look at that and see that and clock it because it's honestly, yeah, it's different now. It's quieter. Like, it's the same. Women still are like. And people in model. In the modeling industry, like bodies and weight are still discussed in such a top toxic way. That's just a little bit different. So I think having these conversations because of a documentary like this is, like, very important. And I think it just like, brings it to light of just being like.

[E]

All right, well, I think the difference between then and now is that, like, we. They didn't have a formula for reality tv, right? So it's like in their minds, they think they're making a documentary, like whether it's being broken up in episodes. But we're showing you exactly how. How it is. No storylines, no whatever. I thought it was really interesting in the documentary when they said that all the regulations started to change after the super bowl with Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake, that it was like, now we have to be more careful about what we're showing. Which I think is when we started getting into, like, more Kardashians and more like storyline driven reality TV shows versus.

[D]

Just like ensemble versus.

[E]

Versus like an off the cuff. Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. The following. It, like a documentary was definitely, I think, a bit of. Of an excuse to get away with some things. I think probably deep down they were creating a documentary in real time. I mean, a documentary is like something happens and we go back and explore this show. There's a documentary about America's Next Top Model. They were just like, we're going to follow these people's lives and we'll invoke kind of this documentary mindset anytime we need to cross a boundary or a line that we maybe shouldn't and expose these very young, impressionable people who feel like they're shooting for the stars and chasing a dream. And then all of a sudden you have these people being put in these very vulnerable situations and potential dangerous situations that can really affect their mental health for potentially the rest of their lives.

[B]

And at the end of the day, none of this helped any of these women with the modeling career. I mean, you hear Danny about talking, talk about like I was signed to this agency and they would not book me, they would not let me go to castings because I was seen as a reality TV star and not as a model.

[A]

And like that is the, the curse of a reality TV star, regardless of it's America's Next Top Model or the Bachelor is the incredible access you get and the zero credibility I talk about.

[B]

Well, they didn't even give her the access. They just wouldn't even let her go in the set.

[A]

No, they had access to like they're on tv, they're working with Tyra Banks, they're working with these very influential personal are being signed to agencies. But the credibility they lacked is the fact that, oh, you're on a reality TV star, you're only here because of X, Y or Z or you're just a distraction because like, you know, because of the TV experience. But yeah, it certainly didn't match these women's expectations of what they were going to get coming out of that show.

[F]

I do think that that's changing now. I mean, you're seeing that with like Alandria from Love island and Paige to Sorbo. Like that is something that, that for I think good re. Like it's good that it's changing.

[A]

Yeah. I mean now finally in 2026, you know, some how many decades later you're, you are seeing reality TV stars being treated like stars. But it's been an evolution for sure. We will certainly get into more of this documentary as it unfolds and as you watch and we'll get hopefully more personalities from this documentary. But up next, it's time to dive into some Love is blind season 10. We do have Kevin coming up shortly. But how y' all enjoying this season?

[F]

So good.

[D]

I say it every time like I'm not a big love show person, but love is blind. It's like bringing real people into these pods and then seeing how they interact. Tyler going redo replays them ahead.

[A]

Now. She should, I mean, she said these are pressure cooked environments. I, I wish they would show more of these redos more often.

[F]

Yeah, yeah. I'm personally like the show lights up for me once they leave the pods and yeah, then I, you know, it's Too many people in the pods for me to really keep track of or, like. And it's a lot of, like, the.

[B]

Same conversations you're watching with just like, different people because obviously they want to give their story to everyone they're dating.

[A]

But it does seem more like this season, for example, like, I know Emma's. Emma's getting critiqued or criticized a lot for like 10 tell, you know, telling her story over and over. But, like, they have to do that all these days. It's just. Why is. Why are they choosing to show that?

[F]

That's in the edit.

[B]

Yeah, that's in the.

[A]

That's in the edit. Like, of course you're gonna.

[B]

You want Emma to tell everyone every single day.

[A]

She's gonna go on, she's gonna tell that story.

[F]

You know, she's telling the same story to the same person over and over again. Like, these are different relationships. I like Emma a lot, though I will say I've never been the biggest fan of like, oh, my number one went home, so now I'm gonna immed number two. But I do think that the way that she did it was good. Like, she. She just kept herself open and she was kind of like, she didn't immediately go to her number two and say, oh, I'm let's get married. Like, she just kind of went in with an open mind and was like, I'm going to give this guy more of a chance than I was giving him before.

[A]

What do you guys think of Kevin and his love triangle?

[D]

Girl.

[F]

He fumbled it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he just.

[C]

Two baddies too.

[F]

Yeah. And he gives interesting insight in the interview that do with him. But he. I don't understand. I still don't really understand.

[A]

What don't you understand?

[F]

I just, I think that he. I think that his biggest problem is that he said too much of what he was thinking out loud.

[A]

Maybe so, but, like, think we forget that when we're watching it, we get to see everyone. He hasn't seen any of them. And I don't know how you guys would be in the pods, but with the pressure of a marriage around the corner and the inability to, like, see what they look like would definitely fuck with me.

[B]

But also, didn't he not say, like, I'm not here to find a girlfriend or something, I'm here to find a best friend? And it was like, he did say something like that.

[H]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But that is like, bad, bad choice of words.

[D]

It was. He thought.

[A]

I think he was trying to say, I'm not just looking for a Girlfriend. I'm looking for, like, a real connection or, like, a meaningful relationship.

[F]

A wife.

[A]

Sure. Yes.

[F]

I mean, I. I don't think that he was doing this on purpose, but he was just driving them crazy. Like, Tyler thing where he asked her to be his girlfriend, she went to get some chips and guac. She comes back, and all of a sudden he's telling her about how much he loves Kia.

[D]

No. Leia's so right, because he said almost too much. Because then he started the craziness in, like, the. The lobby for the girls, because now they're hearing, wait, he told me that actually he wants me but not you, but now he's saying that he wants you, not me.

[F]

I do love that Kia and Tyler remained best friends and, like, never let this get in between the two of them. But I do think that he just, like, he didn't need to tell Tyler so much of how he was feeling for Kia and vice versa. It was like, keep the relationship here between me and you.

[D]

And Tyler did the right thing when they were like, no, like, choose me or say it now and then Kia, when she was like, no, you're not materna.

[F]

Yeah, like, I'm not your therapist. Like, I don't need to hear about your other relationships.

[A]

Like, well, let's hear it from the man himself. Kevin joins us up next to talk about his whole experience. I think we'll break down the rest of the Love is Blinds episodes through six. Kevin, welcome to the show.

[G]

Hey, how's it going, everybody?

[A]

We're doing great. How are you doing? More importantly?

[G]

I'm doing pretty good.

[H]

Okay.

[G]

It's been a one hell of a week, but it's been. It's been. It's been a good week, though.

[A]

Well, talk to us about that. What is. You know, I'm always fascinated with people who go on these shows. I. I did a. A love competition show, and people are often like, you know, what you signed up for, and then it's always like, no. No one really knows until they do it. So I am curious to start things. Going into this experience, what was your expectation?

[H]

And.

[A]

And then once you got to go through this experience, what was the reality of that expectation?

[G]

My expectations really was going into it with just testing me, seeing if that is, I could truly fall in love with someone without ever seeing them and develop those deep feelings and connections with someone. I think going into it and actually, like, being in shape is just like, wow, like, I can't believe I'm actually really able to, you know, connect with someone without ever Seeing them and with that experience, I think going through it, it was just like eye opening for me. Honestly, it really changed my perspective on just dating in general.

[A]

In what way?

[G]

Honestly, just being able to be more in depth with your feelings and emotions, man. Like, you know, us in society, like, we're so most of the time we meet people, it's out either drinking at a bar, at wherever, wherever you're at with your social events and stuff. And so it made it to me, like, man, I need to definitely have to be more intentional and honestly just figure out what you really want out of, you know, your partner and moving forward. So it definitely opened my eyes a ton.

[A]

I'm curious, what was, you know, at your comfort level? I don't, you know, don't. Don't need to share too many details. Certainly no names or anything like that. But what was your dating history prior to going on Love is Blind? And did you have. Have a, you know, a specific experience, I guess, that maybe affected you in a way that made you more open to this kind of crazy social experiment?

[G]

No, not really an experience that made me more open to it. I would say, like, really dating history, it was just very, very surface level. Like, it was very hard to, you know, get people to open up and really express themselves of what they want out of their future, what they require. Flyer was just very, hey, you're attractive, I'm attractive. We're going through days, we're having a good time and vibe. And she's just. It's almost like the cycle effect. Like you're just stuck in. Stuck in the dryer. You're just trying to get the get out. So, yeah, so really, that, that was really, honestly my main experience.

[A]

There was a moment you were talking to Tyler in the pods and you were really trying to just be honest with Tyler, and she was quickly getting frustrated and then like, she got up and walked away. And I forgot what. It's specifically what you said, but you're like, I'm just trying to tell you how I'm feeling. What did that experience teach you about yourself? And I guess could you just elaborate on how you felt in that moment and what, what you were trying to.

[G]

Do in that moment? I was trying to put my words together to let her know that, you know, I'm going through this whole experience and I do have a connection, connections with another woman in this experiment. What I did poorly, though, is I wasn't. I wasn't putting the words together appropriately. Honestly, I should have been more direct and just, you know, let her know in that moment, and I didn't give her that reassurance. And so looking back on that, that just was tough. And she had every right to, you know, have that reaction. I mean, if I was on the other side and I heard that, I wouldn't feel comfortable either. I didn't do a good job of getting to hear that reassurance. So learning about myself and, you know, going from how I was going in the. In the pods, talking through those feelings and things of that, it was harder for me to express that because I had had deep feelings for her at this very moment. And I was just like, damn, I don't want to break your heart. I don't want to let you down. And so that's where the struggle was coming up. So I was torn. But at the same time, I'm not going to sit up here and lie and not be honest. Like, I. I'm. I'm never, you know, coming. I'm going to come in and be transparent all the time. That's. That was. That was my main goal.

[A]

And dating in general, I think that's something we all struggle with, that balance between being honest and direct, knowing that the conversation we want to have might be received in a way that might hurt their feelings. And then sometimes in dating, it's that lack of directness that ends up hurting their feelings more because. Because they will kind of fill in the gaps of the things that we're not saying and always, like, assume the worst type of thing. I'm curious, if you were to go back to that conversation in this moment, what would you have wanted to say to Tyler?

[G]

Really? Just let her know, like, hey, I have strong, strong feelings for. I'm loving where the direction and things were going. But I'm also. I do have feelings for Kia. And that. That's. That was really the main voice. It wasn't like, oh, now I have more or anything like that. I was just wanted to be honest and transparent and what was going on through my mind at that moment.

[A]

So things ended obviously with you leaving single and sorry, maybe you're not sorry. You know, Kia had some very kind of pointed things to say, specifically that you weren't ready for marriage. Do you feel like that was fair criticism for Kia?

[G]

I look at it this way. Going into the experiment and, you know, dating and going through everything, everything, I came in full on, hey, I'm ready for marriage. I'm ready to find my wife. But going through the experience, I also found out, like, hey, we're not always going to Be perfect. Nobody's going to be gung ho ready to do everything. So her criticism of that, sure. I mean, I think in that moment, there was definitely things I could have worked on and improve as a man, but I do still feel like I'm ready for marriage. But just in that. There's just in that moment, moment with her, I probably wasn't, you know, the right guy in that moment for her.

[A]

A lot of the audience watching it, I think, were a little confused by why you asked Tyler to be your girlfriend while you still had feelings for Kia and were kind of still pursuing that. What was your reasoning for asking Tyler to be your girlfriend in that moment?

[G]

In that moment? So that was the day before we were our proposal day, going into it. And so. So leading up to that, I really was going back and forth, you know, trying to decide. And with Tyler, like, we had such a dope connection in that time, and I was like, let's just do this. Let's. Let's actually see if we can, you know, move forward and figure out things. And I wanted. But I wanted to have a last conversation with her because we did need to address and, you know, talk through a few things. The only issue is, is that the timing. The timing was a little bit messed up. And that's one mistake that I do regret, is just how that played out. As far as for that timing, she made an excellent point. You know, I didn't really get a chance to, you know, have that conversation with Kia going into that moment. So how it played out, I mean, I really was just expressing to Kia how much of an amazing woman she was, but also made it very clear that. That, hey, like, I was going into telling her, like, hey, yesterday, I did go ahead and let Tyler know that I would like to move forward and see where things could lead. But of course, how it played, how you guys seen it was, you know, I got cut off. And she wants to explain to me the things I needed to work on and things of that nature. And so I think for me, that was important to let her know, like, she was so amazing. You're nobody's second choice. And I didn't want her to feel that way. I didn't want her to ever see that way. And the way that she led, that was beautiful. I mean, I was really appreciated of how, you know, she opened up to me and really just, you know, gave. Gave me that closure in that moment. So I'm really appreciative for her for that.

[F]

Did you keep the watch and has it helped you stay in check.

[G]

I did. I did keep the watch. Okay. And absolutely. I think about it all the time. I mean, both women, they really taught me a ton about myself. And yes, I definitely check that watch all the time. But yeah, it's. It's right. Right at home here on my dresser.

[A]

Tyler would have. You would have proposed to her?

[G]

Yeah, I. I think, I think I would have. Absolutely.

[F]

You think you would have proposed to Tyler over Kia if Tyler had stayed?

[G]

Yeah, absolutely. But. But, but at the. But at the same time though, I completely understand why she didn't stay because I did a. I did a shit poor job of giving her the reassurance that she needed to show up that day. And so I understand where I came from in that point of identity. Needed to. I just needed to be better as far as communicating those feelings with her, making her feel secure, like going back and forth. I should have been gung ho of like, okay, this is what, this is what we're doing now. But I didn't give that to her, and she did not want to chance that. And I don't blame her at all for that.

[A]

Was there any part of you that wanted to fight for a relationship with Tyler after you left the pods?

[G]

After. After I left the pods, really, honestly, it was a lot of self reflection. I'll be honest. It was really of like, okay, if I ever, you know, if that happens where I meet an amazing woman that I. I gotta make sure that I'm being direct and having my point and being able to communicate my feelings and thoughts. Like it's tough. Like it's. It's hard. Especially like you said as a man, like, we are not always the best at that. Sometimes we shut down, you get quiet, then you like, it's okay to, you know, put your heart on the line. And so for me, it was more so mainly just self reflection, watching it back.

[F]

Is there one thing that you feel like you should have done differently?

[G]

Absolutely. I feel that I should have. I shouldn't have had both of those connections going into engagement day. Um, I, I really. We should have figured that out probably earlier, but at the same time, that's not the experiment. So. So I'm going through the experiment and trying to see it out as whole and let it play out as well, because I really, really did start developing strong feelings for Kia as well. So I, So. But looking back, that's really probably what I should have done.

[F]

When Tyler left and you had that final conversation with Kia, if she had been willing to, would you have proposed.

[G]

To her in that moment? No, I wouldn't have proposed to her.

[F]

So you were. You were ready to go home after Tyler left?

[G]

Yes. I think really that conversation that I was having with Key was more so just like closure of just everything that we've been through, through this experiment and just, I just really wanted to. Just letting her know how thankful I was for her to come into my life. She really helped me a ton. Like, we shared a moment there. She was expressing just things that she's lost her life and talking about her father. Like, I think honestly, like, the last time I've, like, cried was in the pods with Kia. Like, that was the last time I actually, like, cried in real life. And so it just. I just really wanted her to know, like, how special she was and yeah, just have that closure. But to the point, I had already, like, made that decision and there's no way I was just going to be like, okay, Tyler's going home. Let's just go see. No, I wasn't doing that.

[A]

It seems like Kia, despite, you know, maybe having stronger feelings for Tyler at the. The end of it, touched you and, and you enjoy your time with her and you probably really valued that time. That all being said, is there any part of you after you left that wish you would have just solely focused on your connection with Tyler rather than kind of getting. Get yourself into a little bit of a love triangle?

[G]

No, actually, I don't have any regrets about that all because that's wasn't really what the experiment was about. Like, you never know. Like, me and Kia, honestly, we really, really didn't get to that type of connection where it got really mangled and confused in my head till like maybe like day six, day seven, like, it was pretty late on into the process. And so, yeah, because we. The way that they do it, you can eliminate people as you're having your connection move on and then you solely just have those days with those people. But I was, you know, giving the experiment his fair shot and, you know, putting everything out there, so I wanted to, you know, do right. So now I don't. To answer your question, I don't have any regrets in regards with that.

[F]

Are you still in love with Tyler?

[G]

We. We haven't talked in a while. I'll be honest. And I mean, she. She's an amazing woman. Um, I mean, but I. I can't say I'm in love with her now. It's just been. It's been a little bit of a time. Time. Um, yeah, but I mean, man, she. Man, she's she's really, she's truly one of, one of one. She's amazing. She's amazing.

[A]

What was it like for you? I don't know, when you learned about their physical appearances, you know, because, you know, you're behind the pod and so, you know, obviously now we all get to see what you all look like, you know, as viewers. What was it like for you to learn about what both of these women looked like and how did you process that?

[G]

First reaction was, woo, wow, they're both hot. Like, they're, they're, they're both beautiful. Like, oh my God.

[H]

God.

[G]

And I was looking up like, oh shit. No, I'm so serious. Like I'm, yeah, they're, they're both like just drop dead gorgeous queens. Like, it's, it was, it was crazy. So to see that was like, oh, wow.

[H]

Okay.

[A]

It's always fascinating because like, you know what I love about the show? They really own the fact that this is an experiment, you know, in 2026 with dating apps being what they are. I think a lot of, of people quite honestly struggle with too many. The, the, the feeling of having too many choices. You know, you're on these dating apps, you got five, 10 matches, whatever it is. And I feel like that gets very confusing for people. What will you take from this experience and, and what will you kind of leave behind and be like, that was just specific to that social experiment.

[H]

Yeah.

[G]

I think for me, dating, the main thing that I took away from the experiment is being able to communicate. Communicate and being able to express your feeling like it's okay to be vulnerable. I think a lot of times we just shut down and just like, I don't want them to know that like we didn't have a choice in this moment because I'm talking to a wall, you know, so it's just like the only way I can be able to get to know you is to really get to know you. And as the dates, the days went on, they got longer and longer and longer. The dates got longer and so you're just finding out different things about your partner and different things that you want them to know about you and vice versa. So going into dating like now, in the future, I'm not going to shy away from that. It's not just going to be, hey, you're a good looking girl, you're attractive, I'm attractive, let's be attractive together and see what happens. It's like, let's actually find out what makes you cry and I, what makes you sad. What Makes you scared. What. What are some things that actually bring you joy and peace? Like, what are some things you need from me and I need from you in order for us to be comfortable together? And relationships are a roller coaster. They go up and down. So. But that is the biggest thing that I learned there, going through the experiment.

[A]

What is advice you would give to anyone out there listening who are out there on the apps? They're dating, and they come to you and say, hey, Kevin, you went through Love is Blind. You were caught up in a love triangle. It didn't work out. Give me some advice on how I should handle having some feelings about two different people.

[G]

Follow your heart, man, and trust your gut. Like, a lot of times us, man, like, we know. Like, we know who we like more than the other. Like, and we know typically, it's. It's almost a matter of, like, you don't want to lose someone over here. And like you said, you have so many options. Like, oh, well, she does this differently. And she. You know, you start comparing and contrasting. It's just like, no, if you really, really fall in love with someone, put your foot down. Let them know, hey, this is how I'm feeling. This is. This is what I need from you. And I would love to, you know, get these things back from you as well and really just move forward. It doesn't have to be, oh, we get so distracted because, like you said, we have so many options. You got social media, you got dating apps. You got everything. It's just. It's like it's a Rolodex at that point. So don't do that. If you really, really have those feelings for someone, put your foot down. Let them know.

[F]

I know. We have seven couples now who have gone on. On their retreats. Did you watch episode six?

[G]

I actually did. Actually did not watch episode six.

[F]

Okay. Alex and Britney have a conversation about how they're not necessarily attracted to their partners. What's your opinion on that? Do you feel like once the engagements happen, like, that should be where you lock things off? Or do you kind of feel like the experiment continues in a way and, like, they're all still fair game to kind of continue to talk to each other? Because I know also Bri was interested in, like, continuing to talk to her ex. So I'm just curious to know your opinion on, like, moving forward into the next phase of the experiment. Is it still kind of open?

[G]

That's a good question. I don't necessarily, because I, like, Of course, I didn't get to that point. But I mean, what I will say is, me personally, I hate, like, lying and not being truthful and being upfront with people and just telling them that. So I. I mean, that's a. If that's something that happens and is brought up in conversation, I mean, I would bring it up and bring it up to my partner and just kind of talk through it. But to answer your question, as far as, like, is it fair game or anything? Like, I don't. I wouldn't say that necessarily. I just think that it's okay, but it's okay to have honest conversations and be real. I mean, we did all this in a few weeks, and we're just now seeing each other for the first time. It's okay to express, you know, how you feel.

[A]

Is love blind for you, Kevin.

[G]

In that moment? Yeah, it was. I. For me, I. I came in, like, even in my interview, I came in a little bit skeptical. I'm like, there's no way you can. This is too fast to really develop those types of feelings for someone. But, man, the way that they had it set up and going through experiment, you definitely can't fall in love without ever seeing someone. It's just a matter of, you know, the next part. And fortunately, my journey didn't get to that Next. Next.

[H]

Next part.

[A]

How's your mom doing and what does she think of the show?

[G]

My mom's doing well. She's doing good.

[H]

She's.

[G]

She was getting a laugh at, you know. She was like, you talk about me on national television.

[C]

That's sweet.

[G]

I mean. Yeah, well, I gotta, like, open up and talk about my life. Like, this is real shit. This is my life. So I, um. But she was proud of me. She never really seen me in that type of light before of, you know, opening up and expressing my feelings and shit. So, like, really, like, my mom's never really seen that. I've brought a few girlfriends around to my mom. Like, you gotta be super special to meet her. So. Yeah, but she was proud of me, though, so that's all that matters. That's all I ever care about is, like, the people that. That love and care about me.

[A]

There you go. Jordan's chocolate chip cookies. Were they that special or were they just like another chocolate chip cookie?

[G]

That boy Jordan can throw down, man.

[H]

I'm telling you.

[G]

He, he, he gets to it. I'm like, we coming in in the morning, he's already got the breakfast going.

[F]

Like, was he one of your closest friends there?

[G]

Oh, man. Yeah, me and Jordan was cool, man. He's I, I like, I like people who just have very, just down to earth. I'm just one of the guys. At the end of the day, we're in Ohio, I'm in the Midwest. Like, it's, it's fun, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, like, we like sports, we drink beer, we play darts, we shoot pool. We just want to know it's not nothing spectacular. So if anybody like that is right on my alley.

[A]

So, yeah, I'm actually curious, Kevin, the fact that you haven't finished watching all the episodes. Why I'm curious. I'm actually really intrigued by that because I think most people in your shoes would, you know, as soon as it drops, watch all six episodes. But I, I. Why have you decided not to?

[G]

I, I just stopped after my journey ended.

[C]

Yeah, this isn't about me anymore.

[E]

I don't care.

[G]

That's like. I watched all of it up until 6, but you gotta like, we were there for like each, each episode's an hour. I was kind of tired. I just, I just haven't gotten a chance to. And I was kind of beat.

[A]

Were there any of what you watched? The connections we got to see what has surprised you the most versus, like, what you experienced with your castmates, specifically the men that you, you know, interact with. And I'm sure they, you know, came back from the pods, downloaded their feelings. You know, you guys all talked about things. What is. What have been some of the more surprising things you. Now that you got to see things on the other side?

[G]

Well, it seemed like a lot of, like a lot of them are. They got locked in pretty early and they knew like, exactly what I wanted. Meanwhile, I'm over here going back and forth with, trying to figure out, you know, my feelings and where my heart's at. So I think really that that was probably the biggest surprise. I wasn't going in expecting that to happen to me, to be honest.

[C]

So of the episodes you've seen and of the couples that we know of now, who are you? Is there anyone you're really rooting for?

[G]

I really love my man Vic, Christine. Like, I love their connection. Like, it's, it's. It's so awesome.

[A]

He.

[G]

He was gung ho from beginning and. And I love the fact that they were able to just bond over faith because that's one thing I struggle with, is being in depth of my faith and making sure. I'm praying every day, make sure. Vic was really, he really opened my eyes to just like wake up in the morning get to the gym, say, you know, prayers, read, you know, read the Bible in the morning. Like, it's just. I really love where he was coming out from that. And so I was. I was really happy for that. He found somebody that is on a lot of those same pages with him.

[A]

Kevin, one more question. If you were to run into Tyler, what is one question you would want to ask her?

[G]

What could have I done differently to have you, you know, show up that day? Okay, honestly.

[A]

All right, great question.

[G]

You know, if I could tell her anything, I just, like, I'm proud of her for being able to put her heart on the line like that, be vulnerable like that with me, express those feelings, and she's. She. She's truly one of one and amazing. So I. I love that.

[A]

Kevin, we really appreciate it, taking the time. It's been really been a pleasure getting to know you and watching you on this screen. You seem like a really standup guy and wishing you nothing but the best going forward. And again, thank you for taking the time.

[G]

Oh, absolutely. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you guys much. So, so much for having me.

[A]

All right, take care, buddy. Good luck.

[G]

Absolutely. You guys take care.

[A]

Take care.

[H]

Bye.

[A]

Bye.

[F]

I mean, I'm even more confused now.

[C]

Okay, here's my. Here's my thing with Kevin. It's like. And I. This is relatable to me. Sometimes it's like you just. You shouldn't say things. You know, it's like he was just talking too much and he was saying too many things in the pods.

[A]

We want our men to be more open and communicate more, but only if.

[D]

Maybe just don't communicate the same thing that you said to someone else.

[A]

Hey, listen, guy. I mean, most of us, we're not. You know, we haven't been doing this for a long time, you know, being vulnerable.

[F]

Well, Nick, okay, it would be like this. It would be like this, right? You're the. You're the bachelor.

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

And every time you talk to this one woman, you're talking about another woman. It's like, no, just keep our relationship, the two of us. Like, it doesn't need to.

[A]

Oh, yeah, no, I get it.

[C]

Like, that's for your journal, not for the girl you're talking to.

[D]

To Nick's point, though, I do think to, like, heaven was trying to be and, like, transparent because it is such a condensed process. I just think that it came off like he was being a little too.

[A]

Much, and he doesn't want to lead them on, and he doesn't want to, like.

[F]

I hear it No, I hear that. But even in our interview with him, when he said, like, he. It was. It was Tyler. Like, he did choose Tyler, but for some reason, he kept Kia around still.

[A]

It was frustrating. Well, I mean, not frustrating. Interesting to hear him say that. And I felt frustrated for him, but I think that's. His revision is history. We now know that, like, he has got to see what they look like. Probably at least a year has gone by. So I'm not saying he's not being honest about his feelings towards Tyler, but, like, maybe there's some revisionist history, you know, going on from how he felt in the moment in the pods versus how he remembers how he felt today.

[B]

I will say he did handle himself, I think, very well. Compared to what I think other men would have responded when Keough was like, you need to grow up. You're not ready for marriage. You know, I think most men probably would have, like, taken a lot of offense to that and, like, snap back. But I think he handled it so well, being like, you're right. Okay, I will.

[F]

He did, and he kept the watch.

[A]

He got some direct feedback from both those ladies, and he. He took it like a champ.

[H]

He.

[A]

He was just like, kind of like, thank you for sharing, and I'll look into that kind of. You know, he kind of acknowledged it, which to now he's pulling. Point is, that's tough to hear someone, like, coming for what you could perceive as, like, character or maturity. And he handled it with a lot of grace.

[C]

Yeah.

[F]

It's clear that he really respected both of these women and loved them both. And, I mean, Nick, to your point about revisionist history, though, like, when he did say in our interview that he was not going to propose to Kia, I don't know if I believe that, because to me, it felt like he was about to propose to her. And if she hadn't left in that moment, he.

[A]

He would have. Do have to be careful with editing, you know, and how these shows are made, you know, So I think they could easily make one moment feel more intense than it was for the sake of storytelling.

[B]

Well, he was like, I don't want you to feel like you're my second option. And she's like, I never felt like that. But also, like, can you shut up for a second and let me talk, because I don't even want to be with you.

[F]

But also, he was her second option because he just told us in his interview that he was going to pick Tyler and that if he could do it all over again, he would have picked like, yeah, sure, but I'm just.

[A]

Saying in reality, right, like, him and Tyler could have broken up. Producers could be in his ear saying, like, hey, your. Your relationship with Kia is pretty strong. And he could have been like, yeah, but I don't know. Like, I was pretty certain I was going to pick Tyler. And they could have easily said, I don't know if this happened, but, like, I'm just role playing, like, realistic situations in reality tv. They could say, sure, but like, we. We have seen people realize that their initial interest wasn't like the. Their strongest one one. So just if you're open to exploring that, like, maybe give it a shot. Then he goes into a pod with Kia, tries to be honest with her about his feelings, and says something like, hey, you know, if we do move forward and, and explore this, I don't want you to feel like my second option and things like that. And yada, yada, yada. He mentally might not be remotely close to, like, proposing to her, but could still be, like, exploring that connection. And then through editing, they could drastically, you know, change the context and make it seem like he's about to propose. Like, I'm just saying, it's. It's. It's quite easy.

[B]

Well, we do have six couples who go to Cabo, Mexico, and our one couple who gets sent to Malibu.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

They're like, you are no way going to be dramatic at all. And you're too. You're. You. You're two emotionally mature people. So, like, we're just going to give you your own vacation.

[F]

There was a reason they came out. They. They told.

[D]

They said it was budget, but I was like, people aren't believing that. I also. Christina, Victor. It's like I wanted to watch that. Wholesome. Like, you need wholesome amongst the chaos.

[F]

They have previews, but they have the.

[C]

I need a Z plot.

[B]

Yeah, we see. We went to the gym in the sauna, and now we're going to order pizza.

[D]

And to be honest, it's giving YouTube vlogger.

[E]

He said, new career.

[A]

Yeah, I don't. I don't know why the fans are so precious about it, but they're not a dramatic a couple, and it makes.

[B]

A lot of sense, but neither are some of these others. I mean, I guess.

[G]

I. I don't know. The.

[C]

The.

[B]

The preview for the next couple episodes is giving. Nobody gets married.

[F]

Oh, no.

[C]

I don't know.

[F]

I think they have to this season.

[A]

How do you guys think that Alex's soccer team is feeling right now?

[D]

I hope they apologized.

[E]

They really let him down.

[A]

Well, maybe. I mean, I. I am curious about the other side of that story.

[F]

Me too.

[B]

I think this is the telltale sign. Sign of if any man can only say, you're dangerous, you're dangerous. You're dangerous. You're trouble. You're trouble. And she's like, I'm literally just smiling. Like, I don't know, like, maybe he's not the guy for you. I don't know, or the guy for anybody.

[A]

Seems like one of these people. And I'm sure he's fine and, you know, but the show is Love is Blind. We keep hearing how attractive he is. I don't think love is blind for him. Love is blind for him.

[F]

I know it's not, but he's like.

[A]

He'S constantly asking himself questions. It's like, you know, am. Am I attracted to other people? I don't know. Maybe I could be. But like, you know, it's like he's always convincing himself. And he even kind of said, like, am I trying to convince myself to. I. It just the way he talks is so like, you know, he's very much unsure about how he's feeling, but doesn't want to acknowledge that and is constantly. You hear his. His, like his inner voice talk out loud.

[F]

Yeah. I'm also unsure of what his type is because he was so attracted to Ashley when he saw her in the reveal. And he's so into her eyes and the way that he. She looks at him. And now all of a sudden he's into brunette's brown eyes.

[A]

I don't think he's into Ashley at all.

[F]

No, he's. He's clearly not. And that conversation between Alex and Brittany, in my opinion, it's like, I know that Brittany in her confessional afterwards was like, oh, I'm worried for Alex. Ashley. But I mean, she essentially told Alex that Alex was her type. To Alex, she was like, oh, tall, dark, handsome, athletic.

[B]

But also Brittany being like, have you told Ashley that she's not your type? And he's like, yeah, I mean, I could probably, like, tell her again. And then they go back to the room and she's like, how are your any, like, flirty conversations? He's like, no, I don't know.

[A]

I mean, maybe, but like, I don't think so.

[B]

They probably might have perceived it like that, but I don't. That's not how I, you know, I just care about people. It's like, you could have been like, in that moment, you know, I had a conversation with Britney and I learned that maybe you're not my type.

[A]

Maybe. Maybe Alex will realize this when he finds someone he loves as much as I love my wife. And when you're married and just completely emotionally locked into your relationship, I'm definitely not flirty, period. I'm unapproachable.

[F]

Engaged. They're engaged now. Like, that's why I asked.

[A]

No, but I think Alex is doing the whole, like, I think a lot of younger people, even people in relationships, where it's like, I'm just being nice. I'm not being flirty. I'm just being nice. Like, I'm just. I'm nice. I. I'm a nice person. You might find it flirty, but I'm just being nice. I think for a lot of people who kind of grew up attractive and always got a lot of attention just are just. Yeah, they're natural flirts because, like, that's kind of the energy people give them. But I think eventually, you know, when you're in a relationship that you're really committed to, you realize the difference. Difference between being nice and flirty or being polite.

[F]

And just like, talking about not being attracted to your partner, to another woman is not being friendly.

[B]

I feel like the conversation between Britney and devonte was so sad.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

Even the hickey conversation, where she's like, yeah, I told him I'd give him a hickey, and he's like, yeah, I don't want one.

[G]

Whoa.

[F]

Yeah, there's. It's one of those conversations where it's like, there's really nowhere to go from there because. Because you just. You're. You're arguing with a wall, essentially. Like, you're saying how you feel, and it's just everything is. It does. You know what I mean? Like, well, I just don't work that way. I just can't give you that. That's just not who I am. And it's like, where do you go from there? It's like, well, then we just don't match.

[B]

We just want me to touch you 24 7. You want me, like, I can't touch you 24 7. I can't kiss you 24 7. It's like, oh, boy.

[A]

It's giving. It's giving. Extreme introvert who went from this environment in the podcast where he was in a room by himself, but had. Could talk to person on the phone, and then that would break up and they would talk to other people. And now he's, like, living with one person, and he is, like, can't handle it.

[D]

It did kind of make me think of who is that couple where there was. I think it was a principal that was on his phone a lot, and she didn't want him to be on his phone. Like, that's what it kind of. To Nick's point where it was giving. Like, I do think he's probably not into Britney, sadly, but, like, it's also giving, like introvert. Like, like, he just wants his space. He wants to be able to, like, reset. But then, like, in this experiment, it doesn't really look right.

[F]

Oh, there was one other thing.

[D]

Bri.

[F]

Bri, like, what does she do? Why does she have to get to the bottom of her other connection?

[D]

She's a little too. He's moved on to talk to him. Like, she just. She eager. That's the word. She's eager for it. That's what's raising the flag.

[F]

Yeah, but he's moved on. He's so happy with his fiance. Like, why are you. You needing to have this closure or needing to continue talking to this person who you had a strong connection with?

[A]

Well, you know the answer, right? I mean, like, she regrets her decision and she doesn't want to say that. And she is trying to find every other possible way, even to the point where she's kind of gaslighting the rest of her cast.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, in terms of, like, why aren't you guys feeling the how I'm feeling? But I'm only feeling it because of this.

[F]

Exactly. She's like, you guys are all crazy for not doing what I'm doing. And it's like, no, we've moved on. We are in love. We love our partners. Well, I don't. I'm not gonna go talk to Emma because we broke up.

[D]

Well, I have a question. Is she self producing? Cause she was the one that was like, this is, like, boring. There's no depth here. Like, what are people doing? Like, is she trying to get the cast to be more drama?

[A]

No, I think she just. I think she really is regretting her decision. And she really wanted to have a chance to talk to Chris without feeling or looking a certain way. And she wanted the protection of her cast to all explore these other connections. Connections in a way that didn't make her feel like she, you know, regretted her decision again.

[F]

That's why I asked Kevin. I'm like, once you propose in the pods, is that. Is that the end? Are you locked off? Are you fiance's? Because this whole ending of episode six felt to me between Alex and Britney's conversation and then the whole thing with Brie. I'M like, it feels like they're all still kind of. Oh, some of them are still open and to getting to know each other.

[D]

Four, six people right there. Yeah.

[F]

But I'm saying, like, they're all hanging out and doing these group things, and it's like, oh, that's what Britney looks like. Oh, that's what Chris looks like. And they're all, like, still, like, getting to know each other. And it's like, are we blocked off or not?

[D]

Like, compared to other seasons where it felt like they were couples bragging about how they're so strong with their couples now it's the couples talking.

[F]

Yeah. It almost breathes. Making it feel like the experiment's continuing. And, like, I mean, she still has the right or she still wants to get to know her other connections.

[C]

I mean, I understand the context of Love is Blind, but I think something that's always kind of confused me about Love is Blind is that. Is that that aspect isn't there. Because that kind of makes the show a lot more interesting to me of the possibility of, like, you're engaged, but obviously this engagement is a quote unquote engagement. And there's still that wiggle room in there which, like, there's a lot of tension in that. That's just, like, really interesting.

[A]

I just wish she would have done it in a way that didn't include, you know, like, criticizing her peers. Just be like, listen, I don't know about you guys, but, like, I had a lot of meaningful connections. And while I ended up with Connor, I'm feeling a certain way seeing Chris for the first time. And, like, maybe you all are, like, good, but, like, I guess I'm not. And I just feel the need to explore that as opposed to being like, you all are emotionally surface level, and I'm the only enlightened person here.

[F]

She's kind of gaslighting everybody.

[C]

Everyone.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

How about Amber's reveal her pose behind the curtain?

[F]

Oh, my God.

[A]

See her, like, practicing it.

[D]

The Internet said it took 10 seasons for someone to pose like this, and I loved it.

[F]

Laughing out loud and it was fine.

[C]

Yeah.

[F]

You know what? Yes.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, it's a whole silhouette.

[C]

Yeah.

[F]

Do a whole little, like, strike a pose, girl.

[D]

I just want to know what the combo was.

[C]

Diva, you're slaying.

[D]

Was it, like, producers being like, you look this way. Did she see the silhouette? Was she like, I'm gonna give you options. Like, that's what I want to know?

[A]

No, she. Everything about her screams that, like, she came in with a plan.

[F]

And I do love them together also. I really like them.

[A]

I hope they get married. I'm really rooting for.

[F]

Yeah, they're. They're a couple who I. I could see Victor also.

[C]

Yeah, they got some nice ones.

[F]

Yeah. Oh, but the previews for the next couple of episodes looked wild. I mean, Connor being like, get out. Get the out. I think. I do think that it's gonna get spicy. And I'm interested to see what happens with Britney and. Because I actually don't think that's the end of that. But we'll see.

[C]

We'll see.

[A]

No, they. Alex and Brittany in that scene, they were both kind of like giving. I want to you guys to each other.

[F]

Yeah. And I mean, I do think that Britney's gonna be a girl's girl in the sense that, like, she. I don't. I don't see her doing it without, like, having some sort of conversation with Ashley or, like, there being some sort of closure between Ashley and Alex first. I don't know. But I think that they are into each other.

[A]

I feel. I, I. It felt like when she was like, and athletic at the end was kind of like, if you haven't picked up on it yet, I'm. I'm into you.

[B]

Yeah.

[H]

Well, okay.

[C]

Well, I'm manifesting a good rest of the Love is Blind. I'm also manifesting a really great rest of Beverly Hills. Right.

[D]

Beverly Hills is so bad. It never left for me, but it's so bad.

[A]

I.

[C]

Low key. Amanda, girl, you're saving the show. That's all I have to say.

[A]

Well, she.

[B]

She's a moment.

[A]

She is kind of the only thing that is entertaining.

[D]

No, there's. Everybody else is entertaining on that.

[C]

I would.

[E]

I don't even know what I would do to go on a trip to the Hamptons with Rachel Zo. Just saying.

[D]

Erika Jane being like, where was my invite? Which I agree, because I'm like, she is kind of part of that trio. And it's like, where did she get removed? Yeah.

[E]

The way she's like, I shouldn't be here.

[B]

Well, if you missed the most recent episode of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, here is your rapid recap. Rachel Zoe is so burnt out because she has not been to the Hamptons once this summer, and girl, does she need it. And thus, a plot is born. She's going to Parent Trap Kyle and Dorit in the Hamptons to fix their friendship. Before going, however, Dorit talks to Mo about PK Sutton is emotional about changing her last name to Brown, probably because she doesn't want to be associated with Charlie in that damn football. Amanda is planning a manifestation moment dinner when Dorit happens to be out of town, which is manifestation at work, Mama. Hashtag girlboss. Bose is concerned about the ROI on Amanda's manifesting. Business model. Erica is dating John. He's unshakable. Apparently, she's mad she didn't get to go on the Parent Trap Hampton's trip, though, which, as she should because Donna Karen is there. She's an old friend of Rachel. Back at the manifestation moment, Erica says she'll skim Amanda's book. Amanda opens up about manifesting being Malibu Barbie and how incredible it is that it worked. Sutton manifests a reality check for Amanda by telling her she should know better than to pretend she didn't talk about Dorit and ending it with an ultimate flamer. You're a big girl. You're not a young spring chicken. Amanda does not accept this energy into her aura because she does not think she caused drama between her, Kyle and Dorit. She also gets sensitive about being called a wimp. Erica is like, oh, honey. Rachel talks about how hard it is to be blonde and having a pathetic ex husband. Dorit thinks she's making a lot of sense. Kyle, of course, can't relate because she's a brunette. And Mo is still charming. Anyway, manifesting a chaotic second half of the season.

[A]

I'm really just here for what is the growing hate between bows for Amanda?

[C]

It's so awesome. Like, here's the thing about the two of them is that, like, of course, course, they're like two opposite sides of the spectrum of, like, just philosophies of success and philosophies of life. Bose is so much like, I worked very hard. I like, like, active goals, spreadsheet diva. You know what I mean? Like, she. Yeah, she is type A. She is, like, managing money. She understands business. And then the worst kind of person for someone like that to interact with is someone that was like, it's all vibes. And I get it. And I know Bose is just like, what the fuck?

[B]

Them sitting down at that table being like, okay, so we're going to start off with writing one of a prompt. And Bose is like, yeah, so she actually didn't want to read here.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

She said, girl, we're not doing that.

[C]

She said, you didn't manifest it. You just didn't invite her.

[A]

That might have been Bose's best moment so far, literally.

[B]

No, I think it was her being like, you have to look this up when she Started to Google accosted.

[D]

The. The money queen. What is that called?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Crazy doormat.

[C]

And then I'm going, it's crooked.

[D]

You know, I think Amanda's iconic. I think the vibes manifest. Girlies make so much money and are like, they just make things happen. She's in.

[A]

I'm. Yeah, I'm a fan. No, she is.

[B]

I can watch hours of my intruder syndrome. Having a money queen doormat is like, please come on in.

[A]

Right now. There's a stacks of cash. Cash inside.

[D]

The queen is here too, but she.

[C]

Manifests safety, so it's fine.

[B]

Oh, she did change the. The gate from a picket fence to as set.

[A]

It was not lost on me that I too, had a house in Malibu and I oversaw looking at dolphins. You have to have some incredible eyes to see dolphins from that view, babe.

[C]

I. That baby laughed. So it's like the thing when the. When the girls get so mad at her for always just like herself, subtle flexing. And she has no idea that I choose. Yeah.

[A]

I just wanted to, you know why. I imagine, though, and I guess this is in some ways defending Amanda, but her whole business model is her story. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I've overcome this. I've done that. This is why, you know, I was in a cult, you know, and so she. She does. She literally probably doesn't know how not to, like, use her story as a way to motivate and inspire those who are looking to be inspired by her. But it doesn't land with anyone who's. Yeah, I didn't ask you to inspire me. We're just having dinner and Erica being.

[B]

Like, can't wait to skim.

[E]

I can see how, like, for Rachel Zo, especially someone who's been working in this industry, in her fashion industry for, like, years, started at the bottom, came up and then same for bows, where it's like to hear somebody be like, you know, I saw. I played with my Barbie Malibu house, and I just knew one day. And it's just like, that's a great. I mean, but, like, that's where I'm just like, I can see where, like, why she gets under their skin. And then of course, it's going to play out as if, like, these women are mean girls because they aren't giving her a chance. But sometimes when you hear somebod talk in a way that you just can't comprehend, you just, you know, your brain just shuts off. It's just like, I just, I. I can't I can't vibe with this.

[C]

Yeah. And I think Amanda's, like, biggest issue is not her manifestation powers. Right. I think it's the fact that she'll say it's her completely not understanding that she is on a completely different wavelength than everyone else. And they're not necessarily going to respect.

[D]

She's living her practice. It's a law of attraction. She's literally saying, like, I want this. I have this. And that's how she manages.

[C]

But for law of attraction, you have to be respectful, reciprocal of that. You have to be reciprocal of the other energy. It's like, she's not reciprocal of anyone else's energy.

[E]

And you can't manifest changing how housewives conversations go down. Like, you know what I mean? If you manifested yourself on this show, then you had to have known that these women aren't going to be like, listen, the way that you're speaking to me. I don't really agree with it. They're like, bitch, I don't understand you.

[D]

She needs to lean in and go, I'm manifesting. You're not talking to me anymore. Yeah, manifesting. Her done speaking, girl.

[C]

Go nuclear on them. Yeah, I know you can.

[E]

That's what I kind of want to see. But I'm like. At the same time, I'm like, do I. I just don't know. Like, I just. I just don't know. I just don't know if it's gonna fit.

[C]

I want to see what she would look like actively mean instead of a little petty.

[B]

Who here felt like Dorit was lying about pk and my hands up. Yeah, my hands up.

[A]

I. I'm sure that Mo has PK's back, but the Mo I saw was a very kind of the pragmatic Mo. I. I saw business Mo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, who was really gently trying to, like, check Dorit and she. You know, it's funny, it seemed like a big projection because Dorit's whole excuse was like, mo came in with a script, kind of came in with a playbook. And that's kind of how it came across for Dorit, which is like, I'm just going to stay on script. I have this narrative, and he's just like, I can get it right. You can certainly fake a text thread here or there, but I don't think PK has it in him to fake what came across, as Mo explained, is like a whole, like, days.

[B]

Dorit was a whole chat in Dorit's, like, interview moment. She's like, pk's really good at isolating text messages and whatever. And it's like, well, Mo is saying that he gave him his phone and he scrolled through your text thread. That's not being, like, sent a screenshot or, you know, like, that's him just reading Yalls texts. And then for Dorit to be like, well, let me go look. And it's. I think it would have been a little bit more fair had she been like, well, why don't you look through my phone and you read our text messages? But she's like, let me look for that spreadsheet. I'm not finding it anywhere. See, it's just so messy.

[D]

It's so messy. I'm like, why are we having Mo come in here to play? Like, in between when we already said Kyle doing it and Kyle's relationship struggle, you know, like, it's like, because it's too much Mo.

[C]

Is Mo pretty much a friend of at this point?

[B]

He's a friend of all housewives.

[C]

Yeah, he's the Bravo friend.

[B]

He is the busiest the valley Persian style Potomac.

[C]

He's like, have you guys ever seen the movie dream scenario with Nicolas Cage?

[G]

No.

[C]

He's like. He keeps showing up in everyone's dreams, and that's what Mo feels.

[A]

So I thought he was really charming in the scene because it seemed like he was really trying to help and really trying to keep it moving things forward. And he's like, what can we agree on? Let's not focus what we can agree on and. And things like that. But, yeah, that wasn't the best scene for Dorit because Mo came across as very credible.

[B]

And none of y' all raised your hands thinking that Dorit was lying.

[D]

Well, because I feel like she has her experience and she's speaking from her experience. That being said, I think this whole conversation should have not been on camera. Like, I feel like she probably has truth in what she's saying, and I think Kyle and Rico are hearing it from PK's side. So, like, there can be two truths in this situation.

[E]

There's a possibility that maybe is a text message. Maybe it was an email that she didn't check or something. And that's where I'm just like. I feel like that is her truth. Doesn't mean that it's the actual truth. No, but I mean, just to be.

[A]

Clear, her truth is that PK is almost unaccessible to her.

[B]

Doesn't want to see the kids, doesn't want to see.

[A]

Wants nothing to do with the kids, is hiding all the money. It's like, I Mean, not even. It's like, I mean, everything she's saying is like, the worst possible version of, like, from a, you know, in a divorce standpoint, you know, and maybe it's all true, but again, it's interesting hearing Mo's perspective.

[E]

I don't think that Dorit doesn't have any fault in this by any means either. But what I'm saying is that, like, a conversation between PK and Mauricio is going to go completely different than a conversation between Dorit and PK because obviously they're separate. They have resentment and other things. So it's like, maybe one thing gets said and it's never going to be a productive conversation. Like, she said last episode that they were at, like, a meeting and that they didn't even get to finances because they were bickering about whatever else for an hour.

[D]

That's the part where it's like, to me, it's like, when you coming out of a divorce, everybody goes into kind of a survival mode, and I feel like they're both telling their people their experience in it. And, like, Dorit did give him, like, she was saying he wanted to have every Thursday to Sunday, every other week. I gave him that. But the money is what I'm working. And then Mauricio's clap back is, well, he's drinking wine. And it's like, well, that's like, well.

[B]

No, she said that he was back drinking like he was. And he was like, well, I have been out with him and he's not, like, getting plastered and blackout. He's having, like, maybe a glass of wine here, maybe two.

[D]

So, like, maybe that's what she considers drink that drinking. That's why, like, to me, I'm just like, this is a messy conversation for, like, TV in general.

[E]

And that's what I said. Even, like, with last week's episode about Kyle, that I was like, the advice that Kyle's giving during the Dorit about, like, you shouldn't be discussing this on the show is good advice. It just can't come from her for some reason. But I'm just like, at the end of the day, to Justin's point, all of this, these, like, minor details that in Dorit's mind is venting or whatever. Like, you just don't know how this can be used against you because it's.

[D]

Not a good look or just your kids watching back. I think it's just, like, a tough situation. I do appreciate really quickly Sutton sharing her experience with an annulment. Like, my mom's gone through an annulment. I don't think we see this on TV or hear about it that, that often, but it's a super complex process, especially because it's separate from the legal process. And like removing your name, especially if you've been raised in that religion, like, it's a very difficult thing. So for her to just share that.

[A]

Is very, it's very. To Justin's point, obviously, it's. It's all about the religious aspect. And from the religious aspect, an annulment means this never existed, this never happened. I'm actually surprised he was granted an annulment. To your point.

[D]

Point.

[A]

Justin, to have your. The religion you grew up on or, or, or just that's been important in your life at some level, say this didn't exist. Must be very, very difficult emotionally to deal with. And especially to Sutton's point, Women in your 50s, a lot of transitional things going on. At that point, you're an empty nester. Not sharing the same names as your kids is, I, no doubt, very difficult. And I think, yeah, it was very endearing hearing her open up in such a vulnerable. About that topic.

[D]

Yeah. Especially if you're trying to, like, remarry, because a lot of the times you can't remarry in the church if you have a previous marriage that wasn't annulled.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So, like, whether her husband's trying to move on or whether she's trying to move on, like, I just think like, her calling her daughter to check with her, to me was very powerful. I've seen my mother do that. And I just think, like, her sharing that experience gives a lot of other women, I guess, representation.

[C]

Yeah. I think Sutton is doing something really, really brave. Honestly. You can kind of feel it within her energy this season a little bit too, like the whole Sutton Brown, it just. She feel like she can kind of let it go with the name change. And I think that's a very, very powerful thing for a woman to be able to do, to kind of like, take her not. And obviously, like, people have different feelings about, like, taking your husband's last name, whether or not you want to do that. Like, it's all, you know, it's whatever you want to do. But I think for her, what I'm picking up on, and maybe this is just projector, in my opinion, is like, her kind of like taking that power back within herself and like stepping into herself again in a way that she hasn't really been able to do before. And I just, like, love that for her, you know?

[A]

Yeah. All right. Well, that will do it for today's episode. Thank you to our guests Nigel Barker and Kevin from Love is Blind. Also tomorrow we have an incredible Going Deeper with Rosanna Pansino. Megan, many of you already know who she is. She's the Internet baker, cooker. She taught many of us how to cook, how to bake. And she is just an incredibly dynamic person with so many stories about how she got started on YouTube and some of her creators and peers throughout the time. I, I can't even go into how fascinating it was. But that is tomorrow's Going Deeper, and you are not going to want to miss that episode. Until then, have a good day.

[F]

Sam.