Podcast Summary: The Victor Davis Hanson Show Episode: Beyond Peak Woke?: VDH Interviews Ilya Shapiro on Our University Censors
Release Date: January 13, 2025
Hosts: Victor Davis Hanson and Jack Fowler
Guest: Ilya Shapiro
Book Discussed: Lawless: The Miseducation of America's Elite by Ilya Shapiro

1. Introduction

In this episode of The Victor Davis Hanson Show, Victor Davis Hanson conducts a solo interview with Ilya Shapiro, a distinguished fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of his soon-to-be-published book, Lawless: The Miseducation of America's Elite. The conversation delves into the impact of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) policies on elite education institutions, particularly law schools, and the broader implications for American society.

2. Ilya Shapiro’s Background and Book Overview

[01:38] Victor Davis Hanson:
Victor introduces Ilya Shapiro and his forthcoming book, Lawless: The Miseducation of America's Elite. He describes the book as a critique not only of legal education but also of general education trends at elite colleges.

[02:32] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya confirms Victor’s interpretation, emphasizing that his critique arises from personal experiences at Georgetown Law School. He recounts an incident involving a tweet criticizing President Biden’s Supreme Court nomination process, which led to an investigation by Georgetown’s Office of Institutional Diversity, Equity, and Affirmative Action. This experience catalyzed his departure from Georgetown and inspired his work on exposing corruption in academia.

Notable Quote:
"It's too bad when English or sociology departments go off the rails, but with law schools training the next generation of the gatekeepers of our political and legal institutions..." ([02:50])

3. The Georgetown Experience: Censorship and DEI Issues

[05:07] Victor Davis Hanson:
Victor probes into the specifics of Ilya’s controversial tweet regarding President Biden’s Supreme Court nominee, clarifying that it wasn’t directed at a specific nominee but critiqued the limitation of the candidate pool based on race and sex.

[05:48] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya explains that his tweet was made four days before his appointment at Georgetown, meaning he wasn't yet an employee. Despite this, Georgetown’s DEI office subjected him to a four-month inquisition. He highlights the absurdity of the situation, noting that the investigation was based on a technicality and ultimately led to his forced resignation.

Notable Quote:
"They were trying to suggest that they had jurisdiction over your behavior before you were." ([06:01])

4. Impact on Law Schools: Curriculum and Training

[06:36] Victor Davis Hanson:
Victor references an incident at Stanford where a federal judge’s speech was interrupted by activist law students, leading to broader discussions in Ilya’s book about declining bar passage rates and the erosion of traditional legal training.

[08:17] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya concurs, arguing that law schools are shifting away from foundational subjects like torts, property, and contract law toward more theoretical and policy-oriented courses influenced by DEI and critical legal studies. This shift, he contends, undermines the practical skills necessary for effective legal practice.

Notable Quotes:

• "It's not just critical legal studies and DEI; they're failing at their basic tasks of educating lawyers." ([08:25])
• "It's the DEI crowding out the actual teaching of law." ([08:35])

5. Consequences for Graduates and the Legal Profession

[10:47] Victor Davis Hanson:
Victor discusses how the focus on social activism and DEI in law schools leads to graduates who lack essential legal skills, making them less effective in the legal profession.

[12:41] OpenPhone Ad:
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[14:23] Victor Davis Hanson:
Victor reminisces about his long-standing relationship with Ilya, highlighting how shifts in law school curricula have impacted the quality and preparedness of graduates.

[15:01] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya reflects on his time between college and law school, emphasizing the importance of rigorous legal training over ideological indoctrination.

6. External Pressures and Potential Reforms

[18:13] Victor Davis Hanson:
Victor remarks on how the American Bar Association (ABA) has adjusted to the changing educational landscape, suggesting that ABAs changes may mirror the DEI trends in law schools.

[19:15] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya discusses hiring practices at the Manhattan Institute, noting a preference for ideologically aligned and rigorously trained individuals, regardless of their law school’s prestige.

[20:18] Victor Davis Hanson:
Victor shares insights from industry leaders who prefer hiring from schools like Texas A&M or Georgia Tech over Ivy League institutions due to perceived better practical skills and work ethic.

[21:39] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya elaborates on how federal and state interventions, such as revoking DEI-related funding and enforcing anti-discrimination laws, can compel institutions to reform their policies.

Notable Quote:
"It's surprising, there are a lot of companies that have taken the position that we're simply not going to hire from Ivy League schools because there's a sense of entitlement and privilege there." ([18:58])

7. Ilya Shapiro’s Recommendations and Future Outlook

[26:32] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya argues that the backlash against DEI policies indicates that "we've passed peak woke." He points to recent resignations and policy changes at institutions like the University of Pennsylvania and Harvard as evidence of shifting attitudes.

[30:03] Victor Davis Hanson:
Victor emphasizes the broader societal implications, noting that graduates from elite law schools often ascend to influential positions in government and industry, thereby perpetuating the problematic trends within legal and political systems.

[31:49] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya traces the resurgence of critical legal theory to socio-political events from 2014 onwards, including Ferguson and the Trump administration, which fueled theories advocating for the deconstruction of existing legal frameworks to support marginalized groups.

Notable Quotes:

• "The rate of non-teaching staff at universities has exploded, such that there are now more non-teaching staff than faculty." ([33:39])
• "The growth of DEI offices is inversely correlated to feelings of belonging or comfort with people of different ethnic backgrounds." ([33:56])

8. Policy Suggestions and Federal Intervention

[38:15] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya advocates for leveraging existing federal regulations to enforce accountability in higher education institutions. He suggests that the IRS could revoke tax-exempt status for universities misallocating endowments and that federal bodies should withhold funding from schools violating civil rights.

Notable Quote:
"There are all sorts of strings attached to federal funds... maintaining accounting standards... anti-discrimination principles." ([39:38])

9. Closing Remarks and Book Promotion

[42:22] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya provides details on where to purchase his book, Lawless, and directs listeners to his Substack, Shapiro's Gavel, and the Manhattan Institute website for further information.

[43:56] Ilya Shapiro:
Ilya shares insights into the challenges he faced during his investigation with Georgetown’s DEI office, highlighting the discrepancies between official reports and media leaks, and discusses the ongoing impact of his actions on Georgetown's administration.

[44:56] Ilya Shapiro:
He concludes by emphasizing the importance of external pressure and public accountability in reforming higher education institutions.

Notable Quote:
"This is a lot more important topic than just fights among the elite." ([43:50])

10. Conclusion

Victor Davis Hanson wraps up the interview by expressing sympathy for Ilya’s experiences and underscoring the significance of his book, Lawless: The Miseducation of America's Elite. He encourages listeners to purchase the book to gain a deeper understanding of the challenges facing elite educational institutions and their broader impact on society.

Key Takeaways

• DEI Impact: DEI policies are significantly reshaping curricula and administrative structures in elite institutions, often at the expense of rigorous traditional education.

• Legal Education Decline: There is a noticeable decline in essential legal training, with law schools prioritizing social activism over foundational legal principles, leading to lower bar passage rates and less competent legal professionals.

• External Pressures for Reform: External forces, including federal regulations and industry hiring practices, are beginning to challenge and potentially reverse the negative trends initiated by DEI policies.

• Broader Societal Implications: Graduates from these transformed institutions occupy influential roles in government and industry, perpetuating the problematic shifts in legal and political systems.

• Call to Action: Ilya Shapiro advocates for using existing federal mechanisms to hold educational institutions accountable, ensuring they adhere to their original educational missions without succumbing to ideological indoctrination.

Where to Find the Book

Lawless: The Miseducation of America's Elite by Ilya Shapiro is available through major retailers, including Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Walmart. It is published by HarperCollins under their Broadside Books imprint. Additionally, readers can subscribe to Ilya’s Substack, Shapiro's Gavel, or visit the Manhattan Institute’s website for more insights.

End of Summary