The Victor Davis Hanson Show

Episode: VDH Interviews Sebastian Gorka

Date: August 30, 2025
Host: Victor Davis Hanson
Guest: Dr. Sebastian Gorka

Episode Overview

In this special interview episode, Victor Davis Hanson sits down with Dr. Sebastian Gorka, Deputy Counselor to the President and counterterrorism expert at the National Security Council. The discussion centers on the transformation of U.S. policy and governance under President Trump's second administration, focusing on foreign affairs, national security, internal government dynamics, and the cultural and ideological battles shaping the current landscape. The conversation includes reflections on the broader implications of “counter-revolutionary” leadership, renewed strategies in the Middle East, U.S. relations with allies and adversaries, the Trumpian approach to domestic and international policy, and a pointed critique of establishment power structures both on the left and right.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Context of the Second Trump Administration

• Hanson opens the discussion by asking Gorka for a historical assessment of Trump's second term versus the first, particularly Trump's shift from treating symptoms to targeting root causes of the progressive agenda.

  “It seems to me that this time Trump is addressing symptoms rather than just manifestations of the progressive problem.” (Victor Davis Hanson, 01:45)

• Gorka describes the administration as “counter-revolutionary” and “anti-Jacobin,” emphasizing tectonic changes to the post-war world order.

  "This is a historic presidency... the tariff system... is a complete rewriting of the global trade and economics environment which will be as large as Bretton Woods." (Sebastian Gorka, 03:45)

• Gorka provides examples of transformative actions:

  • Increased NATO defense spending targets to 5% GDP
  • Millions of deportations or self-deportations
  • “Operation Midnight Hammer”—a model for military excellence
  • Trillions brought back from the Middle East
  • Tariffs as a revolution in global trade

2. Global Reaction: Allies, Adversaries, and American Predictability

• Hanson probes international reception of U.S. disruption—whether it’s viewed as chaos or relief.

  “Do they see us as disruptive? Chaotic disruptive in a positive way? Welcome relief?” (Victor Davis Hanson, 05:24)

• Gorka asserts that, overwhelmingly, partners view the change as “welcome relief.”

  • Allies and non-allies appreciate predictability, partnership, and abandonment of lecturing (e.g., enforced social progressivism abroad).
  • He contrasts the treatment of Israel and Iran under Biden with the current administration.

  "The Biden years saw our friends treated like enemies and our enemies treated like friends." (Sebastian Gorka, 06:46)

  "He is the most predictable president we've had in generations. ... If it's good for America, he will do it. If it's bad for America, he will stand in the breach like a colossus. Eminently predictable." (Sebastian Gorka, 08:19)

3. Counterterrorism: Focus and Threat Assessment

• Hanson asks about the primary terrorist threats: Shia Crescent (Iran and proxies) vs. Sunni radicals (ISIS, etc.).

  “Is our primary worry Shia Crescent, allies of Iran, Iran in particular, their subordinates? Or is it ISIS fundamentalist, radical, traditional jihadis that were Sunni, or is it renegade?” (Victor Davis Hanson, 10:34)

• Gorka highlights Iran as the core destabilizing force, via proxy funding (Sunni and Shia):

  "When he looks at the Middle East, he looks at it through a very simple prism of Iran." (Sebastian Gorka, 11:20)

• Successes include:

  • The defeat and forced migration of ISIS to Africa
  • A new counterterrorism strategy aiming to “finish” the remaining jihadi groups
  • Shifting counterterror focus to enable local actors to manage threats below strategic levels

  “Our intent under this president is to deal every single one of them such a debilitating blow that local partners... can suppress that threat to a sub strategic level. And people like me will be out of a job because terrorism is not going to be an issue of mass casualty attacks in New York, Washington, or Pennsylvania." (Sebastian Gorka, 13:43)

4. Internal Government Dynamics: Loyalty, Traitors, and Team Building

• Hanson raises differences between first and second Trump administrations, especially regarding internal sabotage and unity.

  "It's kind of unusual ... they're more complimentary than antithetical, aren't they?" (Victor Davis Hanson, 16:09)

• Gorka asserts a dramatic positive shift:

  • No “traitors” or subversive officials inside the administration (referring to John Kelly, Mark Milley, Alexander Vindman, Rex Tillerson, etc.)
  • The current team is comprised of loyal, like-minded patriots
  • Key figures (e.g., John Radcliffe, Cash Patel, Pam Bondi, Tulsi Gabbard, Tom Homan, Stephen Miller, Caroline Levitt) are described as “connected at the hip” in mission

  “It is a team not of rivals, to quote that famous book. It is a team of patriots who are connected at the hip in their desire to execute the mission.” (Sebastian Gorka, 18:52)

5. Trump’s Learning Curve & Personnel Strategy

• Hanson outlines Trump’s increased wariness about establishment figures after his first term, emphasizing the pressure he faced to staff up quickly with “respectable” resumes, sometimes from the very people who later resisted his agenda.

  “He got to know... the bad people, and he got to know the good people when he was in between terms...” (Victor Davis Hanson, 19:55)

• Gorka shares personal experiences of surveillance, political targeting, and the “healthy distrust” of bureaucratic power within the current administration.

  "My name was mentioned by someone in a text, simply mentioned. They managed to get my cell phone provider to genuflect in front of the January 6th Committee and provide all the data from my phone, my wife's phone, and my children's phone to the committee." (Sebastian Gorka, 21:38)

  • He emphasizes the critical need for public trust—“justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done.”

  “So, yes, we have people in this administration who have a very healthy distrust of the powers of government and the abuses that were committed...” (Sebastian Gorka, 22:22)

6. Justice, Accountability, and the “Retribution” Question

• Hanson: Is accountability in government delayed justice or retribution?

  "This is one of the most common questions I get from our side: Is this retribution or is this delayed justice?" (Victor Davis Hanson, 23:42)

• Gorka frames the pursuit of justice as a public necessity, not vindictiveness.

  "I've never understood this criticism... If it's retribution, a wrong was done. Are we supposed to sweep it under the carpet? ... Otherwise, the average American is going to say, oh, they could do that to a former president. Well, then they can do it to me." (Sebastian Gorka, 24:15)

• He also details abuses—illegal surveillance, use of foreign agencies, January 6 prosecutions—and the imperative to redress them.

7. Trump as Disruptor and Establishment Critic

• Hanson: Trump’s adversarial rhetoric and blunt style are integral to his political strategy.

  “Part of the profile of the president is he's antithetical to the entire status quo and he's a disruptor. ... He opposes not just what they do but what they represent...” (Victor Davis Hanson, 28:45)

• Gorka broadens the critique:

  • Trump’s unforgivable “sin” is disrupting not just the left, but the broader establishment, especially “Romney types” and the conservative “sinecures.”

  "Donald Trump's greatest sin as candidate Trump was he came to this stinking cesspit that is Washington, D.C. and he won the election in '16 without kissing the ring of the Republican establishment." (Sebastian Gorka, 31:31)

• Memorable quote:

  “Along comes the billionaire from Queens, and he shames them by delivering that which they failed to deliver for almost half a century. That is his greatest sin. He is a threat to both sides of the establishment, and that's why he will never be forgiven.” (Sebastian Gorka, 32:58)

8. Common Sense, Minority Support, and the Immigration Debate

• The hosts rebut traditional GOP strategies for winning Hispanic votes and challenge the “comprehensive immigration reform” orthodoxy.

• Gorka: Trump's immigration stance is “simply a reversion to common sense.”

  • Points out how legal immigrants and minorities are hurt first by illegal immigration.
  • Notes Trump’s significant Hispanic vote gains.

  “Who's going to be hurt by an illegal crossing the border? ... It is the Hispanic immigrant who came legally ... and who's busing tables in Dallas, in Atlanta, in comes somebody from Afghanistan ... does his job for 50% cash under the table. That's the person who's gonna feel the pain of 20 million illegals.” (Sebastian Gorka, 35:21)

  “The President is just an exemplar of, what—common sense.” (Sebastian Gorka, 36:58)

9. Economic Nationalism: Tariffs, Trade, and Bretton Woods

• Debate over tariffs versus libertarian economics. Hanson references the post-war system’s origins and ossification.

  “If tariffs are so horrible and trade deficits are good, why do the Europeans, the Koreans, the Japanese, the Chinese... like surpluses?” (Victor Davis Hanson, 37:14)

• Gorka reframes tariffs as both practical and moral, questioning critics’ double standards.

  "Why is it okay for Canada to levy a 200% tariff on American dairy products? I thought we were allies..." (Sebastian Gorka, 38:06)

  “A nation is not simply measured by the service industries it can provide, but by what it can physically do in the tangible world.” (Sebastian Gorka, 42:38)

10. The Elite–Working Class Divide and Media Narratives

• Gorka describes a profound divide between the “accountable” who feel the real-world consequences of policy, and the “unaccountables”—media, bureaucrats, elites who are insulated.

  “For [the accountable], when gas reaches $6 a gallon in California ... that actually changes their lives. ... Then there are the unaccountables, ... for them, they probably don't know what the price of gas is.” (Sebastian Gorka, 44:54)

• Links Trump's appeal to his connection with builders, doers, and workers, as opposed to the “Rachel Maddows” and “Jim Acostas” of the world.

11. Realpolitik: Russia, Ukraine, and the Limits of Doctrine

• Hanson solicits Gorka’s view on Ukraine, Russia, and the practicalities of ending the war.

  “Are we going to then say, well, the only way to force Putin is to supply people? ... Should we hit targets inside Russia?” (Victor Davis Hanson, 51:05)

• Gorka responds with personal perspective, given his family’s suffering under Soviet oppression.

  • Emphasizes Putin’s long-standing irredentism, refutes notion that U.S./NATO “triggered” the invasion.
  • Suggests a comprehensive, “holistic” approach is guiding current policy, one that blends military, economic, and diplomatic levers.
  • Peace plan is close, with specifics to be determined; “the meat grinder will end.”

  “I think we are the closest we've ever been to a resolution. It’s not going to be a resolution that solves everything in terms of territorial control, but it will do what the President wants to achieve, which is to stop the meat grinder, to stop the killing.” (Sebastian Gorka, 55:11)

12. Historical Memory, the New Right, and Antisemitism

• Hanson and Gorka critique “Buchananite” and revisionist narratives gaining traction post-October 7, especially in social media and some right-wing spaces.

  • Deconstructs claims about WWII, the Holocaust, and postwar history espoused by some new-right influencers.

• Gorka links these conspiracy theories to clickbait and the rise of a “woke right” that rejects expertise and objective truth.

  “There is no such thing as expertise, which means nobody reads a book. ... This is why the work of people like yourself is so important. Because what do we stand for? Objective truth is real. Read a book and search for the truth, not for clicks.” (Sebastian Gorka, 64:04)

• Both attribute recent surges in antisemitism to October 7 and suggest Trump’s administration remains steadfastly pro-Israel and philo-Semitic.

  “President Trump and this administration sees those individuals for who they are. ... We are the pinnacle of the spear for a Judeo-Christian civilization.” (Sebastian Gorka, 66:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Transformative Leadership:

  “People do not understand, especially the quote unquote experts in the beltway around D.C., that this man is changing history for probably the next 50, if not 100 years.” —Sebastian Gorka (04:30)

• On Predictability:

  “Donald Trump... is the most predictable president we've had in generations. Why? Because if it's good for America, he will do it. If it's bad for America, he will stand in the breach like a colossus.” —Sebastian Gorka (08:17)

• On Justice and Retribution:

  “If it's retribution, a wrong was done. Are we supposed to sweep it under the carpet? ... Otherwise, the average American is going to say, oh, they could do that to a former president. Well, then they can do it to me.” —Sebastian Gorka (24:15)

• On the Establishment:

  “He is a threat to both sides of the establishment, and that's why he will never be forgiven.” —Sebastian Gorka (32:58)

• On Immigration Reality:

  “The President is just an exemplar of, what—common sense.” —Sebastian Gorka (36:58)

• On Tariffs and National Security:

  “A nation is not simply measured by the service industries it can provide, but by what it can physically do in the tangible world.” —Sebastian Gorka (42:38)

• On Objective Truth:

  “Objective truth is real. Read a book and search for the truth, not for clicks.” —Sebastian Gorka (64:04)

Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:45 | First question: Historic context and substance of Trump’s second term | | 03:30-05:00 | Gorka on "counter-revolutionary" presidency; Operation Midnight Hammer| | 06:10-09:00 | Allies' view of U.S. disruption; contrast with Biden/Obama policies | | 10:34-14:00 | Counterterrorism: Iran, ISIS, threats in Africa/ME; future strategy | | 16:09-19:13 | Government dynamics, loyalty, and team unity in NSC and State Dept | | 21:35-24:15 | Surveillance, distrust, and necessity for public justice | | 28:45-32:58 | Trump as disruptor, critique of left/right establishment, pro-life wins| | 35:17-37:09 | Immigration, minority support, common sense in policy | | 37:14-42:49 | Tariffs, trade, Bretton Woods, economic nationalism | | 44:52-47:38 | Accountable vs. unaccountable Americans, elite vs. working class | | 51:05-55:11 | Russia/Ukraine, realpolitik and peace prospects | | 63:37-66:42 | The new right, historical revisionism, post-Oct 7 antisemitism |

Closing Thoughts

Dr. Sebastian Gorka’s hour-long conversation with Victor Davis Hanson provides a sweeping view of the Trump administration’s philosophy and strategy, from global realpolitik to domestic restructuring. Throughout, Gorka frames the current era as fundamentally disruptive—intentionally destabilizing a calcified consensus in Washington, D.C. in favor of what he terms common sense, accountability, and a return to national interests. The dialogue is peppered with scathing critiques of establishment actors on both sides of the aisle, a defense of Trump’s blunt methods as necessary for achieving substantive change, and reflections on the nature of truth and accountability in public life.

For more from Dr. Gorka:
Twitter/X: @SebGorka
Book recommendations: "Next Gen Marxism" by Katie Gorka and Mike Gonzalez

Host: Victor Davis Hanson
The Victor Davis Hanson Show