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- [00:11]
A
Join Willie Walker, Walker and Dunlop's Chairman and CEO, as we bring you fresh perspectives about leadership, business, the economy and commercial real estate. Willie hosts a diverse network of leaders as they share wisdom that cuts across industry lines. His guests are experts in their fields, from leading economists and CEOs to Harvard and Yale professors and everything in between. Our one goal is simple, providing you with unique insights, unparalleled data, and real time market analyses.
- [00:44]
B
As Dr. Ted Schwartz, who I interviewed yesterday, said, as he goes into a brain, it's sort of like watching waves. You have to adapt your way through the brain. And I would say that was us adapting. The gentleman to my right has obviously figured out how to adapt his way around the world and to take lots of things that have come into him and adapt and persevere. I thought the way, the best way for me to get to know him, and this shouldn't surprise anyone, was to go on a hike. We woke up early and did Proctor loop. And the one thing that I knew going on a hike with Kim was that the pace was going to be really fast. And to say that we passed everyone on the path is an understatement. We really didn't stop throughout it. One of the things we talked about this morning was silence. And you've written a book on silence. And I told you yesterday, I told you about a scene in my pickup truck as I was listening to Silence. And I had three teenage boys in the back seat of the car and we pulled up in front of somewhere and you were in the midst of talking about getting off of technology, getting into the present and living in a silent world. And having spent 50 days on the Antarctic ice cap and 58 days with a partner on the North Pole ice cap, you know better than anyone what it is like to be with your own thoughts. And I told you that as we stopped the truck. What I loved was that I thought the three teenagers would jump out and head right into the store and. And they were sitting there in the backseat, captivated by your words and captivated by what you were saying about getting out of the technological world and into the present world. Talk for a moment of what it was like to be on the, on the Arctic ice cap for 50 days with your own thoughts and no other sounds.
- [02:38]
C
It's kind of best experience in my life, at least in terms of beyond family, et cetera. So I started out on the northern edge of Antarctica and I didn't have a. Well, I had a radio. I was forced to bring a radio by my sponsor and the Airline company refused to fly me unless I had a radio. So the last and the last thing I did on the plane before it went onto the ice was to take the batteries off to the radio and dropped it in the garbage. So I didn't tell anyone. And they called me up on the radio every day. And of course I never looked at the radio. The reason was because I wanted to be totally by myself. Obviously I want to get to the geographical point, the South Pole, to be the first to walk there by myself or to first to walk there solo, but also to travel into myself. And what was interesting, of course, you know, to say what happened during 50 days in one minute is complicated, but it's. But it's. What happened was that when I started out, I felt everything was white and everything was flat all the way out to the horizon. But as the days passed by and a few weeks passed by, I saw start to see more colors. It will be bluish, reddish, yellowish pinkish in the eyes. And also it was not flat there. Saw different structures on the ice and the snow. And then I was wondering, is Antarctica changing or am I changing? And of course it was me who was changing that I got a kind of a pause from everything shut off the world. And then I learned a lesson about silence. And silence is about who you are, that you're in the silence. Of course it's about who you are. Well, noise in the sense of course, telephones, sounds, light, et cetera, et cetera, is about everyone else. And that's why most of us prefer noise, because that's the easiest thing in life, is to escape from yourself. While listening to your inner silence is about getting to know yourself. And of course, getting to know yourself is one of the oldest advices in the world. And I think every advice that I last for more than 1,000 years we should take seriously.
- [05:06]
B
So as you're on the ice cap, either doing North Pole or South Pole, and you are with your own thoughts, what are you thinking about?
- [05:17]
C
Well, that's interesting because, you know, thinking is also kind of a noise because when you're thinking, you're usually thinking about the future or the past. So of course the most important thing when you ski to the poles is to put one leg in front of the other. So technical wise, it's easy, but what's the most beautiful is to be in the present, not to think. And that's happening after a few days when they get into rhythm, you kind of, for long periods, you stop thinking. You're just present in the moment. And I think that's one of the most beautiful feelings you can have.
- [05:56]
B
So as you're just in the moment, describe the difference between doing the North Pole and doing the South Pole as it relates to the conditions and the ice cap.
- [06:07]
C
Thing is, Antarctica is a continent circumnavigated by oceans, while the North Pole of the Arctic is an ocean circumnavigated by continents. That's Antarctica is a continent circumnavigate by oceans and the Arctic is the opposite. So when you ski to the North Pole you actually ski on ice that is moving all the time because just resting on the ocean. So it's, it's very different from Antarctica when you just walk on ice, which is kind of resting on, on, on land mostly. And to walk to the North Pole is by far the most difficult I have done. I did it with a friend, Berger Oslan. And when you get to the top of the world, what's interesting is at the North Pole it's the sun has the same angle above the horizon for 24 hours, it goes up or down. And you only have one sunset a year. At the North Pole that's 21st of March and you have one sun sunrise and you have one sunset which is around the 20th of September. And of course the wind comes from the south, is blowing towards the south. And what's also interesting, it's nothing there. So it looks exactly the same at the North Pole as it does a few hundred kilometers away. So the northfall is just like an idea. And of course even to the moon they could bring some rocks back home. Again from North Pole is absolutely nothing to take with you back home. So it is, it is a part of this to impress my father. And I think you know that the oldest story in the world is boys wanting to impress their father. There would be much to write about in the Bible if that wasn't the case. And when I get home from the North Pole, my father said it's stupid to walk to the North Pole. And in one way he was right. But what he today we're very good friends. But what he didn't get is with everything in life, you need to believe in it. If it's exploration, walk to the North Pole, South Pole, contemporary art, or if it's low, you need to believe in it.
- [08:42]
B
So yeah, where did that belief in exploration come from?
- [08:48]
C
I think, you know, everyone is born an explorer, so some more than others. Yeah, that's true. But almost every kid who you know, comes out into the world would stretch out the arms and the legs in four different directions. And so screaming for air, more air and more space. And after a year, the same kid will walk off to the house and start to wonder what's between him or she and the horizon. And soon what's beyond the horizon. So that's how we're born. And that spiritual exploration, I don't think it ever goes to zero. So I think everything is somewhere between 0.1 and 99.9. So we all, we all have it. But of course, I kept it to a stronger degree.
- [09:41]
B
Yeah. How'd you. How'd you get to 99.9?
- [09:46]
C
You know, it's. I think it's very much about curiosity, it's very much about wandering being kind of an engine in life. It's very much about enjoying nature. I think the biggest mistake we're doing today is to separate ourselves from nature. The whole idea that came out like 500 years ago in UK by Francis Bacon, the philosopher, that the humans should conquer nature. Of course, in Christianity, we are both nature, but we're still a part of nature. But he wanted us to conquer nature and humans didn't need nature. And I think that's the origin of so many of the problems we have today, from people claiming to be sad, lonely, depressed, to climate change. Because, of course, with climate change, if you don't relate to nature, it's also difficult to relate to climate change.
- [10:42]
B
So you did.
- [10:43]
C
And also, I have to add, then you also do walk to the North Pole for. You do it for sympathetic reasons and for less sympathetic reasons. And less sympathetic reason. Superfic reason is you're also doing it because you want to impress, you want to have some recognition.
- [11:03]
B
Clearly you didn't get that from your dad.
- [11:05]
C
No. You know, but that's good. I think if you have a very happy childhood, you will never walk to the North Pole.
- [11:21]
B
Ted Schwartz and I talked both of us yesterday about having chips on shoulders and how that drives performance. So you did the north pole in 90, you did the south pole in 92, and you did Everest in 94. To go from the two extremes of the globe to the highest point on the globe, which was the hardest.
- [11:44]
C
The North Pole is the hardest. And the Northfall has also final years. People tried to get to the north pole from the 1500s and, and, and I've been to the two places you mentioned, but also been on expeditions most parts of the world. And the North Pole is by far the most difficult. And it was the most difficult 400 years ago, 200 years ago, and still today.
- [12:10]
B
You talked about the shifting ice cap. Do you ever get to a point where you, you know, hiked 15 kilometers in a day and gone to sleep and woken up and you're 10km behind where you went to sleep?
- [12:22]
C
Yeah, exactly. That's very frustrating. Walk to the North Pole. It's ice is moving and we went from Canada and the ice is kind of trending to move towards Canada. So we went to sleep and woke up again. And then kind of half the distance we had been struggling through the day before, they're just drifting back again. So it's more like, yeah, walking like an escalator, almost like, not the wrong way, though.
- [12:50]
B
And you talk about in the book just that in your mind it's just putting one foot in front of the other. You're day 25, it's freezing, it's dark. What kept you going?
- [13:04]
C
Well, the thing is, to give up is almost always worse than keep on going. So you just need to keep that in mind that if you give up, first of all, it's on this expedition, it was not so easy either because we didn't have proper communication with outside world this time either to say, wait, we could have a big radio. But we were dragging everything we needed for more than 60 days and nights on this sled. So if we were to give up, it could take quite a few days before we were picked up. Could take a week, whatever. And. But what you need to keep in mind is that as soon as you're back home, you will start to regret it. So. And I strongly believe in the importance of making life more difficult than it has to be. So it's because I think that's like, you know, if you're going to have a meaningful life in general, you need to actively make it more difficult. Of course, if you're born in Southern Sudan, it's different, but if you're born like me in Norway, and for most of people are here today, I think it's very important to make it more difficult.
- [14:17]
B
You go into quite some detail in the book as it relates to the physical strain, the cold, the hunger, the just physical taxing of your body, which was the most difficult to deal with.
- [14:33]
C
The cold went down to minus 50 degrees. And, you know, you just had to go to the toilet like you do back home, take only pants, get them into hockey position, but you do it much, much faster. Oh, no, but it's, it's. But again, it's. What makes it meaningful is that you freeze like hell. And then in the evening, although we couldn't Heat up the tent. But you get into the sleeping bag and you kind of, for a while you're kind of warm. And then you get bear hungry because you're burning off so many calories. And in the evening you don't get really full, but kind of full and you're really, really exhausted and you get sleep. And I think that's the origin of gratitude is to get sleep after you have become exhausted, get to eat, get full when you're starving, get warm after you have been freezing. And that's from the beauty of being in nature. To experience this source of gratitude. And I think that's something we easily forget in daily life. And that makes our life core. I think.
- [15:55]
B
You had a dual sleeping bag. The two of you on the North Pole slept together for 30 nights, for 40 nights to maintain body heat inside of the sleeping bag. On the South Pole you did it solo. That makes me think as it relates to just fear and the control of fear, any difference between how you felt from a fearful standpoint on the North Pole versus on the South Pole?
- [16:19]
C
Yeah, to the North Pole. I needed my partner Bergen and he needed me. And you know, that's a good thing that it depends on another person. If you're egocentric, then you know, you really support your friend. I mean really support each other. And I hardened you from before. But we had this, just this one dream in common. And that was to become the first to the North Pole without any outside help. And National Geographic, which was the kind of the major magazine in the 50s, 60s and 70s 90s for also for explorers because they had every second or third issue they had an article on expedition in 87 they wrote is it possible to get to North Pole in this way? Maybe not. Maybe it is. And when we read that, the National Geographic just said and I didn't know the guy at the time, this is what I'm going to do. And then we met and I think it was an advantage not to have too much in common. And we hardly spoke at all on the expedition. And we end up actually only speaking about food because we were so hungry. But we're still friends. I had dinner with him last week. Actually.
- [17:29]
B
When we talk about fear, you each took a pistol with you.
- [17:32]
C
Yeah.
- [17:33]
B
Talk about using it.
- [17:36]
C
It's one of the difficulties or threats dangerous walking to the North Pole is polar bears. And another difficulty of course Visualize is that it's lots of open water. So we had designed the sledges like this to bind them together and use them as a raft. And the Ocean up there is 3,000 meters deep, so you have to be really, really careful. And we were competing with four expeditions from uk, Canada, Korea and England to be the first. And we could have waited until the ice had been freezing or the water had been freezing, but we were in rush so we kind of paddled across this open gates like this. And it's a huge advantage. But as I write my book I was very happy my mother didn't watch me when I was doing this stuff. But anyway, so one day at 88 degrees and 19 minutes, I heard my partner Berge shouted Hoy. And he's a man of very few words. So I looked up and saw this polar Bear at around 20, 25 meters distance and was coming towards us. And this far north now is warmer, so it's kind of, it's more sealed, could pop up and open deals, etc. But at this time the only thing a polar bear could eat this far north was expedition members. And neither of us had any ambition whatsoever to kill a polar bear. But even Gandhi wrote that if you and the family are attacked by a lion, you would love to kill the lion. So what also matter was who's having who for dinner. And, and so we dived into the sledges, got our guns and the bears stopped because it understood we had seen it and start to hesitate a little bit, which was very fortunate for us. So we got the guns, this Magnum 44s with very short barrels because you need to save weight all the time. And but the. So but the disadvantage of the short barrel, 2 inches barrel is that it's very difficult to hit anything. So, so, but then, so the bear was standing there watching us. We were watching the bear. And then Berger fought National Geographic. He had this dream about having his photos published in National Geographic. So he dropped his gun, quickly grabbed the camera. This was the time he had to film in the camera, got to film into the camera and then he convinced me to stand between himself.
- [20:21]
B
That's your Clint Eastwood moment right there.
- [20:24]
C
So come on Teddy, make my day. But soon after the bear turned towards us, start to dig its forefeet into the snow and charged. And the bear can run up to 40 miles an hour. And this probably ran like 25 or 30 and is 20 meters, 25 meters. It's, it's. You just have one shot each and fortunately we hit it. But you know, if we hadn't killed a bear, the bear would have been sitting here today. So, so, so. But you know, first we stayed absolutely cool when it was happening. But as soon as the bear was dead, we were both just standing there shaking because we have been super scared. And also we were a bit sad because we had to kill the bear, but we still took a few stakes and took with us.
- [21:25]
B
Had you practiced that? Had you practiced shooting a gun? Had you practiced being charged by any kind of animal, a duck?
- [21:35]
C
Now we are both, you know, in Norway it's a compulsory army service, both in the army and. But it was a Navy Seal and I have a fairly good shot. But, you know, we, we shot it at 8 meters distance and. And you're in this. You're done?
- [21:50]
B
Yeah, yeah. You gotta wait that long.
- [21:53]
C
Yeah, we had to wait and it's really close and then, and you know, from. In that speed for 8 meters is.
- [22:00]
B
Like, you know, you talked about weight and how important weight was. You took one book with you. First of all, tell us what book it was. And second, did you have any time to read it?
- [22:14]
C
I didn't have any time to read it. Yeah, I think, I think I brought, I think I only brought the New Testament. That's right. Yeah. And the idea was, you know, nice to have some things to think about, like for 15, 30 minutes in the evening or something. And of course the New Testament or the Bible is what gives you the most ideas per gram as possible. So I think that it was 28 grams, I think the New Testament and one I got from my grandmother. But I don't think I'll open it one section. But when I walked to the South Pole, I brought New Testament again and some other religious literature. And then I was reading one over everything.
- [23:06]
B
So you talk about getting to the North Pole and it really being more of a image or a, or a, you know, a figment of your imagination than an actual spot. Talk for a moment about when you got to the South Pole.
- [23:18]
C
Yeah, though. And you, you never know how long time such an expedition is going to take. But after 50 days and nights, I came to the South Pole and then Americans above the base at the South Pole. And because I didn't have any radio, no one was expecting me. And I walked in there and these Americans came out and like, you know, they said, almost like you should have met them on the street in New York or, or in a kitchen and how do you do? And I said like a pig and shit, because I had had the same underwear on for 50 days a night without taking it off once. And also North Pole, we actually had it on for 63 days and nights without taking it off.
- [24:16]
B
But you also, you do Point out that because it's so cold the bacteria doesn't build today.
- [24:21]
C
Yeah, you know, it, it's so cold. So everything freezes. So it's even in, in, in towards the northall. It's not even any smells because everything that can freeze, freezes. So, so the only which is out there is the you bring with you. Right. So you don't really get sick. So you know, that's the least problem in the world that's you don't change the underwear.
- [24:45]
B
And you wrote in the book that the thing you dreaded the most in arriving at the South Pole was nice.
- [24:54]
C
Yeah, it was really strange to. Because I, I really enjoyed life. Skiing all day, eating healthy food, sleeping eight hours, skiing all day again. So the only thing I kind of missed was I don't consider myself to be a super social guy so it's not something I want to do for the rest of my life. But the only thing I really missed was skin contact. You of course you missed quite a few other things too. But you miss, you know, someone holding on, giving a hug or something. That was the only thing that kind of deeply missed.
- [25:32]
B
So you'd done the North Pole and you'd done the South Pole and now all of a sudden there was real pressure on to get to the top of Everest as quickly as you could.
- [25:40]
C
Yeah. So that's, you know, that's kind of a, I don't think it, it is and sympathetic but I can understand it could be, you know, it could be considered to be not so sympathetic that you have this very competitive edge. Usually I don't compete in nature at all. But was 15 guys today, lots of women doing the same stuff. But that, but it has been mostly been a man dominated thing, Western man dominated thing. And I want to be the first to North Pole, South Pole, top airburst on foot. And there's 15 other guys had done this two out of the three. So I was really in a rush. So I went in 94. I went to Everest water to Airspace Camp and I was pretty certain I was not going to turn around before I was at the summit.
- [26:38]
B
And how many other people to those of us who now look at these pictures of people piled up on the Hillary Step. How many people summited Everest in 94 versus Summit Everest in 20, 25.
- [26:51]
C
I'm not sure about the numbers but I guess the year ice the spring 94, I would think maybe 30, 40 people submitted altogether during that spring and today, you know, it's ten times as many. So it has changed. But you know, so when I came to Hillary Step, I was alone. And today you see this long line. But I'm not here to criticize people climbing Everest today because it's. First of all, I'm sure people like me have inspired quite a few people to climb Everest. So I think it's unfair to criticize. But also, you know, we just unlucky. I was lucky I was born in 63 so I could do all this the way I did it. If I've been born some decades later, I have to stand in the same queue. So yeah, or maybe I wouldn't have stand the same queue, done something else. So when I was a little kid, I was a bit sad I wasn't born a hundred years earlier so I could do everything as the first. But today I'm happy I wasn't born 30 years later.
- [27:52]
B
So when you think about arriving in those three spots, you arrive in the North Pole and a US spy plane flies over. Talk about that.
- [28:02]
C
That was really strange. We're at the North Pole and as I said, we didn't have a proper radio. We had this kind of transmitter consent to the outside world that we have reached the North Pole. And after a couple days, sonny here on the airplane and we look out, look up and just see this plane without any identification passing us in a very low altitude. And of course I'm very surprised. And I Bertke took up this VHF radio, VHF radio and put on channel 16 and tried to call up the plane. And I was stamping with my sheet back and forth in snow food because they were salt hungry and to play and turn around and it's really difficult to, you know, because everything is the same, looks the same. But they managed to get back to see us again and we got them on the radio and they asked us like, you know, could you identify yourself and Berger with. We're having Norwegian accent said we are just two Norwegians that have walked to the North Pole.
- [29:27]
B
Tell them what they did. And then I'm going to ask you the next.
- [29:29]
C
Go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they asked us is it emergency if it's not emergency? And but you know, we still would appreciate some food. So they dropped to it and then said asked, would you like some reading material? And we hadn't read anything but Pollard literature for this last couple years. So he said, yes, please. And what we got was National Enquirer and Penthouse.
- [30:03]
B
I did curious. Do you think they would have dropped the food and the magazines if you'd said you were from some other country? I Was thinking like we're just two Norwegian explorers. They said, okay, we like those guys.
- [30:14]
C
It was very generous up.
- [30:17]
B
And so then we've already talked about the South Pole when you arrived and you were a dreading speaking. And second of all, when they asked you how you doing? You said, I feel like a pig in talk about getting to the top of Everest and the transition from elation to fear.
- [30:33]
C
Yeah. You know, today because so many people climbing Everest, you know, it's. People say it's easy to climb Everest, but the mountain is just as high. Of course. But also psychological wise is getting easier. Many people have done it, but still it's very high and it's not much oxygen. It's great fresh air, but there's very little of it. So I got super exhausted. I overested estimate myself a little bit above 8,000 meters. Pushed on a little bit too hard, had to sit down, fell asleep at maybe 8,006 or 700 meters above sea level. Woke up again, kept on pushing, got to the summit. A super duper happy mood. I almost cried a little bit. But then you haven't been on Everest for long. Before you start, ask yourself, how in hell should I get down again? And of course that's the greatest danger to get down because then you're easily more competent and too much confidence can be very bad for you because you have to be super. I wouldn't say afraid, but you have to be concerned all the time. So many people have and I know, I know knew a few that kind of die on the way down because they, you know, I've been to the summit, it's great. I just have to get down into the valley. And then you do a little mistake and then it's over. So you have to be careful every step.
- [32:04]
B
You talk a lot about gratitude in those three moments. Is that the core emotion you feel as it relates to gratitude? Or is gratitude something you get once you've gotten home and are thinking back and reflecting on it?
- [32:17]
C
Well, I think it's hard to get down from the mountain before I felt gratitude, I think.
- [32:22]
B
Yeah.
- [32:22]
C
But I try to feel gratitude every day. I think that's as I said, gratitude is. It's very complicated to have a good life if you don't feel gratitude. And it's all very complicated to have a good life if you don't try to be generous and kind.
- [32:39]
B
I will comment this morning as we were out on our hike. Most people in Sun Valley, when you pass somebody on the trail, you say, how you doing? They say, I'm Great. His comment this morning, what'd you say in the first person we passed was something far beyond, I think I said.
- [32:58]
C
She said, how are you doing? I said, I've never been better.
- [33:01]
B
Never been better. Struck me.
- [33:04]
C
I think, you know, it's. I think in general you need to be. You don't need to do anything. You don't need to walk to the North Pole, you don't need to do anything. But I think you're better off if you're a little bit optimistic.
- [33:15]
B
How do you think I felt when I heard him say, I've never been better? I was like, we're on a hike on Proctor Loop. I mean, come on, talk for a moment about you're a voracious reader, you read all the time and it clearly informs your writing.
- [33:32]
C
Yeah.
- [33:33]
B
What do you read?
- [33:34]
C
I read. I was. I could say I read anything, but I feel anything. But I try to read literature of great quality and I think that's a meaning of life, you know, you need to fulfill your own potentials. So if you read lousy books, listen to lousy music, see lousy TV, et cetera, you know, eventually you, you get 60, 70, 80 years old and you start to wonder, you know, was this my life? All those days and weeks and months and years passed by and this was my life. So I think, you know, so in terms of reading. Yeah, I read, you know, great nonfiction, read lots of philosophy, great fiction. I was just in Japan with my daughter, read, I think 12 novels, Japanese novels, you know, the three Nobel Prize winners, but also some other stuff just to get into Japanese literature and. Yeah, and I read, you know, good magazines. I read ft, Economist, et cetera. To keep updated.
- [34:42]
B
Yeah.
- [34:44]
C
When not, I'm not, I don't, you know, people need X, Blue Cloud, etc, because, you know, that's the only way they can keep up. But, you know, it's. It's not my experience.
- [34:57]
B
Do you restrict the amount of time you spend on technology?
- [35:01]
C
No, but I'm good at putting out, putting my phone on air, mood, airplane, mood mode.
- [35:13]
B
I was surprised and actually, it didn't actually surprise me that you really don't measure. We were walking this morning and my dog was running after us. He was a small little thing and he has these legs that are about this long. And I mentioned how many steps the dog. We passed somebody and they said, oh.
- [35:26]
C
What a cute little dog.
- [35:26]
B
I said, think about how many steps he's going to take on this hike. And Earling said to me, I've never measured my steps. I then asked Him. You ever gone to the gym?
- [35:36]
C
Nope. So I don't think there's anything wrong measuring the steps or going to the gym. It's not just not my thing. And, and in terms of walking, I think, you know, some of the beauty of walking. You walk because walking is good for you, it's great for you. You should not necessarily be a means to something else that you should, you know, 10,000, whatever, it's totally okay. But it's, it, it, you know, walking is, it's, it's good for health, it's good for your creativity, it's good for so many things. And Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, 2,500 years ago, he said, the best medicine will, for all times will always be to do a walk. And he said, if you'd not feel better after one walk, you should do a second walk. And his third advice was just make sure that the doctor doesn't give you the wrong medicines.
- [36:33]
B
So walking, reading and silence. It was in silence that you came up with the idea for your company. Toss for a moment about how you use that silence to not only be at peace with yourself, but come up with the ideas that you come up with.
- [36:49]
C
No, today's science has kind of confirmed that walking is really good for creativity. But this is something people have known for thousands of years. The reason Socrates kept on walking was not because he wanted to get much more fit to impress his wife, but it was because it was good for his creativity. So they kept on walking. And why did Steve Jobs also kept on walking was good for his mind, so. But endless with silence too is also very good for creativity. And when I came up the idea to start a book publishing business, my girlfriend was pregnant. I want to live in Norway. I want to have a job. I was a lawyer so I could go back to law, but I didn't want to sit in the backseat anymore. So I want to be the boss in my own company. So I had to start myself. I was doing the dishes back home. I enjoyed doing the dishes. And. And then I thought book publishing, it's very conservative. Someone like me can make a, Make a. Find my own path, create a company. I didn't start it for idealistic reasons, but, you know, whatever you do, the world is getting worse or better by what you're doing. And I thought with book publishing, the world gets a little bit better. Yeah, it was, it was a good, was a good forum to say it. Huh?
- [38:17]
B
What was you saying earlier? I said, I said, we've been really lucky to be Successful. And you were like, we like the success better than the failure as it relate.
- [38:27]
C
Can I tell a love story before we take the questions?
- [38:30]
B
Yeah.
- [38:32]
C
I could have told one about my girlfriend that this is additional. Sorry. Okay, so it's, it's. It's when I researched the Northfall book, the history of the Northfall, to my great positive surprise, the history went much, much further back in time into prehistoric times. But also of as the whole history was also as soon as you get into 16th century, it was about, as I said, western men, white men trying to conquer the world, conquer nature. But then the story which is not much told is that not all but most of these men they had wives, girlfriends, fiances, kids, family back home. And until recently there was no way to communicate with outside world. So the men left and were away for one year, two years, three years, no news. And quite often guys disappear to the North Pole. Let's say about a thousand people tried to get to the north pole until the 1890s and751 died. So of course, and until 1896, people knew more about Venus, Jupiter and the bright side of the moon than they knew about the North Pole because the planets they had looked on with telescopes in 1608. Why? Because that's when the telescope was invented. But the North Pole no one had been close to. So then in 1897, these three Swedish explorers decided to fly to the North Pole in an air balloon, which was a good idea because everyone had failed so far. And this should take off in July 1907, 897. And just before departure they were informed by this Norwegian explorer, Fridtjof Nansen, greatest Norwegian ever to be alive, I think. And he sent them a letter and said, you will have headwinds all the way. Because he had the drifting across the Arctic Ocean for the previous years. Check the weather every second hour a second hour and headwinds. So he said, you need to decide should you return to Sweden, have the courage to return to Sweden without trying and be considered to be covered by your fellow Swedes. And the world like New York Herald had their own journalists to cover their expeditions. This was a kind of a world sensation, the whole thing. Or do you have less courage and make a dash for the North Pole? And the Swedes said, there's no way we're going to turn around before we are trying. So they took off. And after two and a half days they land on the ice just between the North Pole and Svalbard is archipelago north of Norway. And no way they're going to get closer to the North Pole. So they got the sledges they had in the balloon or in the basket on the balloon and start to walk southwards. One of the guys, Nil Strindberg, he got engaged eight months previously. So his fiance on the photo here she was waiting through July while the guys were walking. They walked southwards. They didn't have at that time you didn't have a proper map. It was just one line on the map. An island someone claimed to have seen they called White Island. And they walked through August, September. Anna was waiting. They came to the island 5th of October. And after three days they were all dead. And Anna was waiting through 98, 99, 1900 and eventually 1910. He married this British guy. And in 1930 her. She kept a photo of her fiance in the living room. And in 1930 the remains of the three sweets were found at White island by some region explorers. And they got the remains of the body sent to Sweden. And they found nails. And around his neck he had this medallion. And inside the medallion he had this photo. And in his pocket he had his diary and love letters he had written to Alma. So it was like Dear Alma to begin with was everything is fine, you know, I will be home in a few weeks and then we will marry. And then the land on the ISO said, like, you know, now I'm worried about you because you will be worried about me. Because I will use a few more months before you will see me, but I'm fine. And we'll get married in the autumn. And then you get into September and then he writes, now I'm even more worried about you. I love you, but I won't make it back home before the winter. So I will winter on the ice if you don't find any land. But in the spring I will be back home and then we will marry. And Amal, of course was very moved, had a funeral. She didn't attend the funeral because she was married, but she sent flowers and just said four Nils from Anna. And in 1948 she dies. And in her will it says my body should be cremated and buried with in my husband's family a grave. But prior to cremation my heart should be literally cut out and separate, cremated separately and be buried with my fiance. So the 5th of September 1930. Steenberg sir fiance's brother and some other old friends. They went early in the morning. Foggy morning in Sweden. Difficult to get permissions in Sweden for many things. So they. They digged up the grave halfway down to this little silver box with ashes into the grave, ashes to ashes, etc. Wonderful story.
- [44:47]
B
Before I open up to questions, I will one quick anecdote. The two of us had a pre call scheduled for two weeks ago and he was out on a hike, coming back to do the pre call and got delayed on the hike and couldn't send me a note saying he was going to be late. So I got onto the zoom call and I sat there and looked at the zoom screen and typically if I'm waiting for a zoom call to begin, I grab up my phone and I'm multitasking and waiting until the person appears on the screen. And I sat there and thought about the book Silence and all that he has written about and all that he has experienced. And so rather than grab my iPhone and start multitasking waiting for him to show up, I just sat there and stared at the screen and was with myself for 10 minutes until he still hadn't shown up. And I cut it off.
- [45:41]
C
I was out hiking without my phone.
- [45:43]
B
Yeah, it's exactly right.
- [45:44]
C
And I forgot the time.
- [45:46]
B
And I, I, I use that as a closing point only because the book about the North Pole is fascinating and his, his accomplishments as an explorer are, are incredibly noteworthy and interesting and the way he writes about it is fantastic. But I could not recommend the book Silence More. Given the world that we all live in today and the constant noises that we have around us and the reminders that we have on our phones when we all walked in here to turn off, you know, turn your phone off and we all sit there and say, oh God, got to make sure that it's not buzzing or ringing while I'm in this setting. And I would pause it and I'm as guilty as anyone in this room as it relates to being connected to technology. After hearing earling and all of his, you know, life story work and also just going to the, to the extremes as it relates to getting unplugged and being silent. Take that to the next level. He talks in the book Silence about a study that was done. It was done at USC in Harvard.
- [46:45]
C
Yeah, I think so.
- [46:46]
B
About a number of adults being asked to sit for 15 minutes in silence. And very few of them could get through the 15 minutes without saying get me out of here. And then what they did was they said, if you want to get out of here, we'll give you a shock that you've already experienced that really hurt. But if the silence gets to you too much in the 15 minutes, you can press this button you can get shocked, and you can get out of here. And what percentage of the people hit the shock?
- [47:11]
C
Almost all of them, eventually. And, you know, Blaise Pascal, the French philosopher in the 1650s, I think, you know, he wrote that the origin of every problem for man is that he's not able to sit by himself alone in a room doing nothing. So instead of doing nothing, he will do something. And that's the beginning, all the problems.
- [47:34]
B
So I will cut our conversation off on that. Let's go to questions while we've got about 10 minutes left. Let's. We've got Garrick over there. Thank you, guys. Really. I wanted to ask, as you were for months on end, walking this path that is, you know, in real proximity to death, where was this idea of death located in your head the whole time? And were there moments when you really engaged with this idea and this possibility? And how did the idea of it evolve?
- [48:09]
C
You know, Question. My answer to the last question is never in the sense that, you know, when you are there, you. When you're in nature for a while, you become more and more at one with the nature. So you feel that your body doesn't stop by your skin or your fingertips, but, you know, it kind of extends into the nature is. You're part of the ice, you're part of the wind, you're part of the temperature, part of the colors. So you don't get, like, you know, I don't. You don't get that fear that you're, like, close to death. And really, you very seldom close to death, but it's always a little bit dangerous. But if it hadn't been dangerous, it would be kind of pointless. So then anyone could do it. But then again, with fear or death, very seldom. But of course, with Apollo, bear, et cetera, and a few other times, and also in Everest, I almost fall off a cliff. Then you close the death. But I don't think about it much before. After it's over.
- [49:12]
B
You talk in the book a bunch about perspective on that issue and the stars talk for a moment about. Because you talk a lot about the North Star and the true North Pole, but you also talk about living somewhere where you can actually see the stars.
- [49:26]
C
Yeah, I think you know it. I think you know it when I talk about nature, but also to be able to see the stars, like now most people in the world now live in places where you hardly ever, or maybe never ever see any stars. And I think that's. That's a huge disadvantage because just to look into a starry night and contemplate and let the wonder kind of grow and really teaches you a lesson about who you are and also how you relate to the universe and also at least me. And I think it's kind of common that you kind of you get a feeling of how little you are compared to everything how important you are unimportant you are. But then also it grows on you that after all you are part of the whole thing. You are part of the whole universe. And I think that's a great reminder. So that's again that's like noise in shape of man made light.
- [50:34]
B
Got one in the way back.
- [50:37]
C
So after all you've accomplished and done.
- [50:40]
B
Being incredible places what in the world do you do to challenge yourself and push yourself today?
- [50:46]
C
Today, you know it's, it's, it's the greatest challenge being a polar explorer is to and has always been is to get up in the morning at the right time every day even when it's minus 50 in the tent. And you know it's kind of today too to get up and do something interesting. And I think it's important to. That's not my idea. It's the old idea is to fulfill your own potentials and one reason I'm still doing expeditions but less impressive but also do many other things because you know you need to do different things in life and I think you know to write this book on the North Pole I had a full time job and made all the things to do but it still took me six years and I think it was really worthwhile. So it's you know it's all the challenges to do. It's always and I'm also sometimes asked like is there anything more to explore? It's always more to explore and you know some of the biggest mysteries for you will always be in your own backyard. And that's what travel literature every second book on you know, big books on travel is that you travel far, far away and to find some answers and when you eventually return back home you find the answers.
- [52:03]
B
I we got one right there is the microphone's getting to him. I asked him this morning is there anyone where on the face of the planet that you haven't been that you'd like to go to? He said no because I can go anywhere that I want to go.
- [52:19]
C
I'm a lucky guy but I'm not unlucky. I'm feel that where I'm lucky. Well yeah. Can we talk about you're beginning to collect art how that happened? Yeah, I always been interested in art at least since I was an early teenager. My father had an uncle was a painter. I thought he was a very funny guy, not very successful guy, but still he was painting and he was different. And then when I was 21, I bought my first art piece for two bottles of wine. The artist was desperate to get some more wine and I still have the piece. I was jealous. It was this Edward Munch inspired these three men floating front of a beautiful woman. And it was about jealousy. My girlfriend just left me and I identified with the work and today it's probably worth less than those two bottles of wine, but it's. But it's. You know. But then I. But I didn't have time or money to buy any art. So I bought maybe one or two pieces a year for many years. But in late 90s my. I earned enough money from book publishing to buy a beautiful house which was my. One of my goals for my family. And then I felt I was free to spend the money as I liked. So then I spent everything on art. And it, it. The familiarity with exploration is. It's very difficult to get contemporary art because modern art, older art and artist stories already told, you know, whoever catching up what's great. But if you buy contemporary art and young art like I'm also doing it's. No one has really decided whether it's great art or not. So I like it. But it's also. It's an obsession. Just like the morphpolism. You know, you don't become an art collector on a big way or polar explorer if you not have this obsessive personality.
- [54:21]
B
He also talks in the book about how art is appreciated through silence and the messages that come to you through art without anyone having to say anything.
- [54:31]
C
Meanie. Great art is usually about silence. Loves the art is about noise.
- [54:36]
B
We have time for about one or two more.
- [54:38]
C
Yeah.
- [54:38]
B
You know, your life has been really dedicated to your physical fitness and your physical body. Have you ever had an injury that you've had to overcome in order to pursue your passion?
- [54:54]
C
Yeah, quite a few injuries all the way from the neck and down to my toes. I once thought I'd broken the neck and I died in shallow water. And I came to the hospital, it was with a helicopter, super serious. And eventually the guy said you didn't break your neck this time, but you actually did it quite a few years ago. I know, I'm. I know.
- [55:21]
B
Let's go with one more and then we're going to wrap it up.
- [55:24]
C
Hi. When you're not surrounded by Thousands of miles of ice and you're in the world with constant stimulation. How do you keep a sense of presence and like inner silence almost? I think it's, you know, it's, it's could be complicated because as I said, it's much more tempting to go for noise than in the silence. But so for me too, you know, I can end up like, you know, checking the news three times in one hour, which of course is just total waste of time. And I Google something and find it and 20 minutes later I'm still googling. But having said that, I think it's easy to underestimating your own potential for experiencing inner silence, because that silence is there all the time, just waiting for you. And you can find them. When you have a shower in the morning, you can find it, you know, if you walk a few stations instead of taking the metro, you find it to do the stairs instead of the lift, you can find the menu cooking, you can find it when you're making love to your boyfriend, whatever. So this silence is there all the time. Or even better, do a walk, whatever. So it's the silence at all times, you can find it, you know, the nicest place in the world, you can find silence.
- [56:43]
B
So as we thank everyone for being here, talk about what you say at the very end of silence.
- [56:49]
C
Yeah, I think, you know, it's. I think it. One of the reasons I have made an effort to write these books on silence and the north pole I'm walking, etc. Is not because I want to inspire everyone to do the same as I have done, but it is to inspire and motivate for everyone to find their own self, pose.