A (3:28)

Yeah, well, a. Will, it's a pleasure to be with you. I mean, in some senses, I think we should be talking about what you've achieved with your firm rather than what. What we may have achieved with Cain as a group. But thank you for having me. It's a pleasure and privilege to be with you. And look, it's a really big question about your life, right? About what. What were the triggers and what were the motivations that led you to the people that you are today? And obviously it takes you back to your parents and, and in my case also my wife, who on I think Monday will have been married 35 years. We met at university. I mean, I mean, the truth is I was always a smart kid, but focus and attention and which, you know, actually probably leads you, as I'm sure is with you, to be able to run a portfolio because it means you can have many varied interests and people often wonder how you can retain the information across various, you know, portfolios in the way that you do. But, but ultimately, I mean, it was, it was my parents and Sharon, my wife, who certainly after, even after university, because even I struggled to get into college, into university in the uk, I had five rejections because my school thought that I would underperform in my final exams at school. So applying for a law degree with bad predictions wasn't the greatest, smartest thing to have done. But, you know, in the 80s, people weren't as transparent with the pupils as they are today. So, you know, they told you one thing and the university the other thing, because they were more about. Worried about their own reputations than about the kids. You know, the world's turn, full circle. I think quite rightly in that sense. So I, I struggled into Manchester University, and then at Manchester University there were so many things to get involved in. And I've always been very interested politically and, you know, relatively involved, and I was very involved with that. And, you know, obviously, you know, my, my religion, you know, being Jewish and, and protecting Jewish, you know, rights has been a big part of my life as well. And that was a big part of my university Life as well. So, so maybe academics and doing the work became somewhat a distant third, maybe even fourth for having a social life. So it was only after that that Sharon said to me, for God's sake, spend a year or two and just knuckle down and do some work and focus on what you need to focus on. And that made a big difference. That made a big, big difference to the, to what was then law school, post university and then getting into work. And when I got into work I really enjoyed the, I was a lawyer but I enjoyed the practical aspects of helping people solve problems, helping people buy companies, sell companies, merge companies. And that led to understanding that I had a particular aptitude I guess in those areas. And that led me to leading a law firm at a young age. So, you know, it wasn't suddenly, I think I kicked a switch from being a dummy to being smart or not smart. I would never describe myself as smart. It was more about focus. I think you learn in life that focus, focus, focus on detail. Detail, detail is, is, is one of the most important things in business. You can't do the same thing enough times if you want to make sure it's right. And in fact when I left the law and worked with Gerald Ronson in London, who's one of London's best known property developers, job would do the same thing a thousand times and people would say I'm going to come and I'm doing it again. But each time he would find something different to talk about and focus on. And I think it's that obsessional focus on detail, that obsessional focus on getting things right that gives you a chance. Now everybody's going to make mistakes and I've made enough of them in my life. But you know, it's, it's, it's. I think as you get older you understand what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are and when you have, when you hire and build teams, you have to amplify people's strengths and you have to support their weaknesses. And I think I've tried to do that in my own career as well.

B (7:32)

Yeah, I think one of the interesting things there though, Jonathan, is this two things that strike me in your response. The first is the humility. I've, I've been getting ready for this conversation. I've watched a number of your other interviews and read a lot and one of the things that is just consistent and everything I hear you say is a, is a, is a sense of humility that is uncommon for someone who has been as successful as you have Been. And I'm. And I'm certain that that sense of humility made it so that, you know, your law firm was the hippest law firm there was. I'm. I'm assuming that there was some of that in being a very talented young lawyer, but not coming across with either an arrogance or a sense of, I've got all this worked out. But there was something in you at 32 years old that your other partners, I think you had 90 partners at UL Swang when you were became managing partner, that they saw in you that said, he should be our leader. What do you think that was?

A (8:39)

I think that when I was 17 years old, I was selected to go on a camp in America, a leadership camp in America, by an organization, a Jewish organization in the UK that used to send kids to camps in America. I enjoyed the American culture, summer culture, for one summer of my life. And I learned a phrase there, which was to risk hostility, that in order to be a leader, you have to be prepared to risk hostility. In other words, you need to treat people properly, you need to stand your ground, you need to be able to make your opinion heard, you need to get your voice over, and you need to ensure that you do that in a respectful and appropriate way. And I've tried over the course of the last 25, 30 years to really run every business that I've been involved with is the same principles. In other words, the most important principle, and I say this virtually every day in my life, and if I bore people, is to try and treat people the way that you want to be treated, and that that involves communicating messages to partners, to other sides in transactions in a way in which you'd want to receive it. And if you don't feel comfortable using the words because you wouldn't want to hear them yourselves. And of course, there are always exceptions to that rule when you need to do something which is pretty clinical. We've all had to do that in business, but predominantly when working with partners and employees and colleagues to try and treat them the way you want to be treated. That's the first one. The second one is when you know to risk hostility, to be able to say, okay, I'm prepared to stand up, I'm prepared to argue my case, but I'm also prepared to be wrong. I'm also prepared to be overruled by the weight of argument on the other side of the table, but I'm going to put my argument forward and I'm going to be brave in doing that. And the third point, which is something I'm obsessed about. And being involved in sport, even in a small way now, is to really watch me in the sporting world with people doing this, which is the notion of maximizing potential. I've never really understood what my own potential is. I'm, I'm a bit older now, but I still think, you know, I've got issues to learn. I've got people I can learn from, like the situations I can learn from. And I want to create an environment where people can maximize their potential on an individual basis. So I think that they've been my mantras and they were my mentors when I was 30 years old, if I'm honest. You know, I used to say this 30 years ago. I've done a thing in school for years which is like, you know, top 10 tips for leadership. And they've been the same principles as I was talking about 20, 25 years ago, and they're ring true today. I think if you can create an environment in a business where people feel valued and where people on an individual level feel that they can maximize their potential, that they are treated as an individual, that they have an ability to express an opinion and not be disregarded, not be, you know, not be belittled, then you've got a real opportunity to take the mass of those ideas and take them forward. Some of the best ideas that we've all heard in our businesses have not come from us. Our job is to sift the ideas and choose which ones to execute on. But, you know, so I think that, I think at an early age, I was prepared as a business was growing, as the law firm was growing, to express my opinions in an appropriate and respectful way. And that led me, the other partners, when there was a generational change, to say, you know what, Give this guy a crack. How bad can it be? And, you know, that that gave me a chance and it was a great run. I loved it.

B (12:13)

So hearing all of that and it giving your personality and your, the way you lead teams and your, how humble.

A (12:23)

You are.

B (12:25)

It had to have been really hard to leave. I, I, I think back to that decision where Gerald Ronson said, you why don't you, you know, sort of get on with your life? And then you decided to go join him in real estate. I get the point of I want to, you know, I want to see what my potential is. Back to your sports analogy that you just gave. And at the same time, you had created an environment at all swang, you'd created a partnership at all swing that was performing fantastically And I'm assuming you were making plenty of money to pay for anything that you would want to.

A (13:00)

Do, let's say, as the American law firm partners are making today, Willie, unfortunately. Okay, well, I wasn't complaining exactly.

B (13:08)

Exactly. I would. I would. I would imagine that the. The country house and the Cotswold was. Was well taken care of.

A (13:14)

I rented into JD Banks this weekend.

B (13:17)

Oh, really?

A (13:18)

That was a great.

B (13:22)

So. Well, I want to talk about politics later, so we'll save that for a little bit later. And what your conversation with our vice president was like. So. But just for a moment, letting go of that after 15 years and running the firm and establishing the. I mean, one of the things that, quite honestly, I love about Walker and Dunlop is it's got this incredible culture. We built the company, and I wake up every day and I don't feel like I've got a job. I wake up every day and do what I love to do. So when you made that decision to move on to something else, really, what was the. What was the driving force behind that at that time? Because I would imagine leaving was a very hard decision.

A (14:02)

It's a. It's a great question. Right. And leaving was an exceptionally hard decision in an emotional sense, in the sense that I had, you know, people who I had worked with for years, who I had helped develop, who had helped develop me, and who I'd become incredibly emotionally attached to. I also knew in my own body that it was time to do something different. And I'd known that for a couple of years, and I was sort of searching for the right avenue to do something different. Whilst on an emotional level, it was very hard intellectually, I found it easier, albeit the final push over the wall I needed by trusting people close to me, that I wasn't being crazy.

B (14:46)

In.

A (14:47)

Doing what I was doing. Because obviously, whichever way you look at it, I was going from the top of my one industry and jumping into another industry in which I was sort of going blindfolded into another world. And however much you think you knew about one industry, you don't know it until you're in it. And I think I learned an awful lot in the first couple of years, which helped my smooth that way forward. I mean, in my mind, I think that when I look back at my own career and think about it, I actually don't like the use of the word entrepreneur, which you used in your.

B (15:23)

Oh, I find that. I find that to be so appropriate. Look, I won the Ernst and Young Entrepreneur of the year award in 2011 for growing a company which at that Time was a 68 year old or 70 year old company. And I literally, when they called me to say, you've won this award, I said, you don't want, you don't win an entrepreneurial award for taking a 68 year old company and growing it. You win it by taking a piece of paper and going to a garage and starting something. That's my definition of entrepreneurship. And, and, and, and at the same time it's very evident that what you've done throughout your career is wildly entrepreneurial and that you've done things in a different way to create the growth and green, the opportunity differently.

A (16:04)

Willie and I take exactly that. That's exactly my point, right. I mean, I look at Todd, Todd Boehly is genuinely a world class entrepreneur. He's like, you know, beyond Premier League because he understands so many different industries. He is prepared to risk in various areas, calculated carefully, often unbelievable amount of work and consideration. I look at myself and my own career and I've understood that I have a tolerance for risk in an individual level which has enabled me to take certain, I hope, calculated risks over the course of my career which have benefited me. And I think that's something when a lot of people say to me, God, how did you give that up and do that and do that. I think there's two things. One is you genuinely feel a little bit unfulfilled. You do, you feel like you're doing the same thing year in, year out and you're not maximizing your own potential, therefore you feel unfulfilled. And then the second thing is that you're prepared to say, okay, what's the worst that could happen? I'm going to take, I'm going to have a little bit of risk in my life for a few years. I'm 40 years old and I'm going to see where it takes me. Obviously that was one of the best decisions I've probably made in my career. The second one would, would come a few years later which was teaming up with Todd and his partner Tony Manella. And you know, they've been amazingly supportive partners over the course of the last 10, 11 years. But you know, I think that I'd been in the law for 15 years. I remember saying to one of my law partners, I, I must have been, it was sub 30 years old. He's a lovely man called David Custo. I think he'd be happy that I mentioned who him. And he was a real estate partner in probably 20 years older than me. And I said, david, he must have been 55, 60 at that point in time, I'm not going to be like you. I love you, but I'm not going to be like you. And he said to me, jonathan, do you know how many lawyers I've heard say that over the course of my lifetime? And I said, okay, but I'm going to be different. And he laughed at me and. But I meant it. From a very early age, I was always thinking about, you know, what was the next thing. And, yeah, that's life. That's where it took me, and that's the road I went on.

B (18:35)

Your comment on that, of that conversation reminds me of a night around a table in the south of France with a bunch of buddies who I was on a biking trip with. And a number of people in the room were talking about politics and about whether any of us would ever go into politics. And there were two of us around the table who have always had a big interest and have always sort of said it, someday maybe we will go into politics. And one of the guys at the table just. He basically called BS on me and the other guy, and he's like, neither one of you have the guts to jump out of what you're doing today and go do politics. As much as you might talk about it, as much as you might think about it, neither one of you will ever do it. And what ensued was this great debate until the wee hours of the morning, Jonathan, of us sitting there being like, well, you know, maybe this will happen and that'll happen. And to this day, I still sit there in the back of my mind saying that that gentleman who kind of called BS on the two of us, his clock is ticking. And every day that goes by where I or the other guy doesn't go do it, he's watching and saying, I was right, I was right.

A (19:33)

You know, we don't know each other well, Willie, but my guess is right that there is a. There is a. We can talk about politics later, but there is that there is a human element to what we do, which, as much as people think they can replicate it in politics, I don't think they replicate it in the same way. It's a very different world, and we've both been close to it within our various jurisdictions, in different jurisdictions, but the principles remain the same. And I think the ability to influence from the outside is sometimes more powerful than even the ability to influence from the inside.

B (20:06)

You know, it's interesting. I'm just one quick one on which I. This is something I Had not even contemplated talking to you about. But so I was up in Boulder, Colorado, meeting with Jim Collins who wrote Good to Great a number of years ago. And he was talking about Walker and Dunlop and what a great company it is and how it had grown so fantastically and this and that. He goes, it's pretty evident that you, you know, you're a, you're a great leader and you've built a great company. You think you'll, how long do you think you'll stick with it? And I'm talking to him about longevity and about how long to stick with it. And he said, have you ever thought about doing anything else? I said, you know, I've always sort of had this thing in the back of my mind as it relates to politics and whether I would ever run for elected office. And he looks at me and he says, Willie, you're a talented CEO, but shifting industries like that, very, very few people have the capability to go from the political world to the business world or the business world to the political world. And he said, you can almost put on a couple hands the number of people who've successfully done that. And he said, it's very challenging to change, not just a, a vertical in business, if you will, similar to what you did. And I'm not in any way belittling what you did because what you did is incredible. But he was basically saying the world of politics, the networks, the reputation that people build up in being in politics for their entire career is wildly difficult to replicate. And clearly one of the things that's so interesting about Donald Trump is the way he did that was the brand he had built that allowed him to jump over, whereas most people, and I can list a laundry list of successful. Well, I mean, look at, look at Howard Schultz from Starbucks who had a big brand, a big name and went nowhere in the world of politics because people say you're an entrepreneur of a coffee company and you've scaled it and become a billionaire, but you're not my leader.

A (21:58)

I think that, that we have gone down a certain road in beat, in building people based businesses. And we've done that by being transparent leaders of our, of our businesses who have put their hearts on their sleeves and lead by example. And I think those skills are very, very different to the nature of the political worlds which we find across both sides of the poll. And I think to change your mindset in that way and operate that way requires. Look, I think these guys are incredibly talented, incredibly talented, but they have different talents. And I think one of the big challenges in the world. One of the things I like about the new Trump administration, and we can talk about that separately, is the way that he has integrated people with deeply sophisticated and extensive business backgrounds into his cabinet. And I think that's giving a level of sophistication and execution capability which most jurisdictions around the world don't see, because they don't understand the consequences of the decisions they're making in government upon the businesses and the people who live off those businesses. And I think that's one of the big disconnects we have in the Western world, because most of the world doesn't have people in government who actually have real life experience. They are just political geeks from the day they leave college.

B (23:28)

I completely concur. And I would also one final thing on this that I know, you know many, many politicians, both in the United States as well as in the UK And I happen to know a number. And I think one of the things that is wildly underrated is the talent of these people. I don't care which side of the aisle they are on. I've met just brilliant and wonderfully talented senators and congressmen and presidents and vice presidents and what have you and prime ministers. And I know Tony Blair is, is one of your not only someone you've spent quite a bit of time with, but somebody that you respect tremendously. And I've had the honor of spending some time with Tony Blair. And I mean, he is just an incredibly talent. He, Tony Blair could do anything. He just happened to have gone into the world of politics and become prime minister of the United Kingdom. But you meet someone like him and you really do understand that they are special people. And I think it is so sad that most people who don't get the opportunity to meet these people think of them as their caricature on a television screen or what the other side sort of tars and feathers them as. And not to really understand that whether they're fighting for the right or whether they're fighting for the left or down the middle, they really are wonderfully talented people.

A (24:45)

And I think the other thing that people don't appreciate, and I had the pleasure and privilege of spending some time with the British prime Minister very recently, who is someone I've known for a number of years now, regardless of frame, the scale and the scope of the roles that they have to play are truly extraordinary. And the prioritization of the strategic issues that a country has to face blow into a corner the issues that we have to deal with on a day to day basis. And especially as they don't know which area is going to in that old game of whack a molecule, they don't know which area is coming up next is going to create a big emergency. So I think that it's a huge task for anybody and I think these people are extremely talented. I just don't think that I have the same skill sets because I think I've done things in a different way and that's not to minimize me or maximize them or vice versa. I think it's a skill set to get yourself through that political world, but then to end up in office is a mind blowing issue in my view in terms of the strategic decisions that one has to make across the spectrum.

B (26:02)

Looping back to the comment, as it relates to risk taking, you grew up in a family where your father had it a dress store or was it a dress manufacturer?

A (26:16)

Manufacturing business.

B (26:18)

Manufacturing business. And my read of that Jonathan was that it was a, it was a successful business but it wasn't anything where you were, you know, going to the French Riviera for summer, summer, summer vacation with, on a yacht or something like that. If I misread that, if I misread.

A (26:36)

That.

B (26:39)

And there was something in the way either your parents mentored you or something that they instilled in you that said to you you can take risks and if everything goes upside down, you can always come home, you can always have a roof over your head, you can always have a meal at the table. Is, is, is that what gave you the sense of risk taking or was there something else in your formative years?

A (27:03)

Yeah, no, I think, I actually think that my parents made the rest in peace. But I was incredibly close to, you know, my father and my grandfather together were in, in the, in the, you know, the dress manufacturing business in the East End of London post war business. You know, typical progression which hit harder times through the 80s through the, you know, a number of factors coming together which, which made it much, much more challenging and therefore I'd say the years. But, but when I was at University between 80 and then when I started work, you know into probably into the early 90s were much more challenging. My father then ended up selling mortgages and life insurance and he was always a very, very hard working person and ported himself from one career to another as he, as he needed to. I think that, that I, I don't think that the risk taking came from them. I think what came from them was that they, they imbued in. There were three boys. I was the Middle child. They imbued in us a sense of confidence and a value system that has lived with me for the rest of my life. So they always identified that there was some talent there, there was some character there, there was some capability there. And they imbued you the confidence to push yourself forward and be a leader in an early age. And they imbued in us a sense of values in relation to both family and community, which have formed the bedrock of my life. And I think if you have those values, if you have that bedrock of family and community that gives you the base in your life from which you are maybe prepared to take one or two risks because you've got those, you know, those people to fall back on and feel comfortable, comfortable with. And you know, my parents were always extremely proud of, you know, all the three boys and you know, the families that grew from that and what we, what we have achieved and. But it fundamentally came from this sort of solid, you know, foundation that they put in place. And when, you know, when I look across other people who grew up in our area and East End of London, in Ilford, in Essex, which is sort of like if you know where the Olympic stadium is in London, you're going five to seven miles further east. You know, I think, you know, we've, we've be, you know, it's been a good journey for us and that's fundamentally because of the value systems that our parents put in place.

B (29:40)

So when you think about risk taking, you've done a number of enormous projects. You put a billion dollars into the Crown Building in New York. You've built 830 Brickell, the tallest tower office tower in Miami. You're in the process of doing a huge development here in LA with the Amman Resort and the Beverly Hilton. What's the biggest risk you've taken as it relates to either a development or an acquisition?

A (30:11)

Well, was the biggest risk I've taken, I don't think I'd like to sort of identify one more riskier than the other or less risky than the other, you know, at the time you make a decision, you know, you've got to, you've got to sit down and analyze it and cut it back and understand where your downside is and what might go wrong and what you might lose. And if everything went pear shaped. And in fact, two weeks ago in New York, we all met in relation to one or two aspects to do that and to whiteboard the scenarios and say, okay, what does this look like? And I remember in relation to the Crown Building, which was just before COVID and Vlad Dorinin had bought the Crown Building and was going to convert it into an Oman hotel with residences. And I'd had a. I said, Todd, a deep relationship with Vlad, and he's our partner down in Miami, and we have a lot of confidence in his capabilities and his team's capabilities and a massive belief in the Oman brand. We sat down, Todd and I and a number of other people, and we, you know, we. We scoped out where we thought our risk was and where we thought the opportunity was, and we proved to be right. You know, we always believed that Amman could create a pinnacle, you know, a great hotel in the center of New York, and, you know, one of the great flagship properties in the world, 57th and 5th, and that the residentials would sell for a certain valuation. And I think if you keep things simple and you break it back to, you know, what would happen if it played back to you, then, you know, you can calculate, you know, what your downside is. And, you know, we got refinanced out in 2021 by JP Morgan, and it was a very, very good trade for all. So I think, I think I would, you know, I don't like to sort of, you know, start choosing between your children, which one was the. Ever took. Right. But I, I think that, you know, we, we have a good system whereby we analyze the risk that we take and we analyze the positions that we take, and no one should take those decisions in isolation, which, which we don't. And, you know, we. We're prudent and we're careful, but we're prepared to venture into errors. If I could turn it around the other way, I would say to you what I've learned, where I've made mistakes, which I think one always has to acknowledge. When we sat down, Todd and I, and it really was in the summer of 2015, and you mentioned Henry Stilburn at the top end, where Henry had decided to go off and do something different. And I'm still in contact with Henry today, and he's a good man. You know, we sat down, Todd and I said, look, you know, I, we. This is really about quality real estate. This is about quality, quality quality real estate. And that's what I believe. I think that when you're dealing with premier marquee properties in great situations, in great cities, then your downside risk can be calibrated, can be understood in a much better way, and is actually much less than people realize. You know, when you look at what we're doing in Beverly Hills. Very few people have the opportunity to re envisage 18 acres of one of the great cities of the world, Beverly Hills. And yeah, these are massive numbers. You know, we're about to close in the next ten days of four and a half billion dollar financing for JP Morgan and Vici. And these are enormous numbers, you know, from a guy from East London. To be writing a, you know, facilities of that scale in the United States of America is extraordinary. But when you break that back and understand that, you know, we've got my mom hotel, we've got the Beverly Hilton, we've got an amazing retail environment we're creating there and we've got the two residential towers that you mentioned. Do you understand that? You know, yeah, there's risk, but there's also huge opportunity and there's generational opportunity. There is opportunity to create something that no one else has done and which could live for generations within various entities. And so I think it's understanding the risk, understanding the opportunity and keeping focused on what you're good at and where you believe you have strengths. And I think what we've developed at Cane is a real expertise in the high end in the luxury world. We're doing with Adele and there in Miami on, you know, that's been, you know, it's going to be extraordinary when that comes out in the, you know, the end of this year, beginning of next, we, we've got it at Raffles in Boston where we've got Pro, the best performing hotel in Boston and so on and so forth. And you know, it's been recently announced that we have a new, you know, relationship with, well and embedded on a deeper relationship, I should say, with budget capital to help us grow that area. That's because we focused on what we're good at. And I think, you know, that's what I've learned and developed more and more over the course of developing Cain, that we should just stick in our lane and stay in what we are really, really good at and what we really, really understand and that that creates huge opportunity.

B (35:09)

So when you talk about the, the opportunity, when I, when I think about the project here in la, that parcel of land that Wanda was selling that you and Todd had the opportunity to step in and buy, you weren't the only people on the face of the planet that knew that there was a parcel of land between the Beverly Hilton and the Los Angeles Country Club that was going to be sold by a Chinese investor. And yet you all have the focus, the capital and the vision to be able to step in and do that, how did you either differentiate yourself on that or how was it that you and Todd got conviction on it to be able to execute on the vision?

A (35:54)

I think we had those aspects that you talked about. We had the focus, we had the capital, we had the vision. We also had one other practical thing which is worth identifying, that we were partners with Benny Allergem on the, in the Waldorf and the Beverly Hilton at the time, and that had on that poor parcel of land 250,000 square feet of residential entitlements that we were able to move from the left side to the right side. And what that meant is that we weren't embedded and we weren't, we weren't. We were the one people that could really maximize the Wonderland to its fullest extent with the, with the consent of the city to move the residential entitlements on one side to the other. And Benny Allem and his team did a great job in taking the entitlement process through the city and ensuring that happened. And I think that really was a clincher for us, because if you think about it, if you're paying the same price as someone else, but you're able to use 250,000 square foot more entitlements, your price per square foot on the land you're buying comes down by 25%. And that was a massive, massive change for us in terms of a benefit. And it was something which no one else could bring to the table. And if you look at the scheme today the way that we are, you know, building over Merv Griffin Way, and we're putting 8 acres of public gardens and we're creating the retail and the hotel and the residential. No one else could do that by creating a seamless piece of land across the, the 18 acres. And that was really what I think was the clincher, and that was the vision and that was the opportunity. And then we, Lord Norman Foster and Foster, you know, his partners, created an unbelievable master plan for us, which the city bought into. And the Beverly Hills City Council have been incredibly supportive for us through the whole process because they see it as transformating, you know, transforming that part of Beverly Hills. And at a time when all cities are looking to encourage people to help develop them, to bring you capital in, to bring new opportunities in. So it's a multiplicity of factors, but the, the actual clincher was probably the entitlements that we had that no one else had.

B (38:01)

Yeah, it's fascinating. I'm, I, I think about that project, Jonathan and I, it Makes me think about Amman and what a brand. And you're an investor in the brand. I, you also having the renovation of the Delano Hotel makes me think back to the Delano was the first hotel that I ever stayed at where, you know, the, the room rate was something that I could in no way afford at that time in my life and.

A (38:32)

Steer really, I, I, I was shuttling.

B (38:34)

Between Latin America and the United States and wanted to take my girlfriend at the time to a special weekend. And I called up the Delano and they, I think at that time they probably said to me that it was $400 a night back in, you know, 1991 or something. And I, and I, and I could in no way afford a $400 a night hotel room and end up staying at the Delano and thought I'd really made it at that time. And I will also tell you as it relates to Amman, I've always wanted to go visit the Amangiri out in the Utah desert. And during COVID I was, when it shut down for a, for a brief period, I said, okay, when it opens back up, no one's going to want to go to the Utah desert. So I'm going to jump into the bargain at the Amangiri and go stay there. And I think they opened up at room rates of about 2,200. And I checked it last week and it's now 5,200 or 5,300 a night. And I, and I have to say, I have to say, Jonathan, I, you have focused so brilliantly on the premium luxury segment. And as, as somebody who is fortunate to essentially kind of live in the premium luxury segment, I, I, I look at what is charged at in that premium segment and I sort of sit there and I say, who can, who can do this? Where, where is all of this wealth coming from that allows people to spend $5,300 a night staying at the Amangiri in the middle of the Utah desert. And the bottom line is it is incredibly deep and it is incredibly wide pool, relatively speaking, of people going after this premium luxury space.

A (40:08)

I think you've answered the question in a way, right? I think that since the global financial crisis, this is not a political answer, this is just a faction answer. You know, the wealthier have got wealthier over the course of the last 15, 17 years. And what's happened since COVID is that people have been less sensitive to pricing because they want to enjoy the experiences and they want to go out and enjoy their lives. And we're seeing a Huge transfer of wealth from one generation to another, and it's only just started. And, you know, when we travel around the world, as you know, we do, you know, you see it all around the world. You know, when I look at, it's interesting, I went, I took my family to Amangiri, really, in the summer of 19. So, you know.

B (40:58)

So you got in when he had. It was really cheap.

A (41:02)

You're quite right. And I, I, you know, we, we wondered what would happen if you look at Miami, what's happened to Miami since COVID adrs have gone up 300% and, you know, it's not unsane. Look, nothing goes on forever, okay? But, you know, creating this product is really hard. Creating this product, you know, to build Amangiri, to have the vision, to build Amangiri in the Utah desert takes vision. You know, the, the I, I, you know, you look at Miami and what we're doing with Adela now, it, it, it's a lot of capital and it takes a long time, always takes longer than you think it does with all these positions. But what I think we've understood, we've understood luxury, we've understood hospitality, and what we've enjoyed doing is not just doing that from an asset perspective, but also getting involved operationally and getting involved operationally in terms of taking stakes within the operational company. So we own, you know, I sit on the board of Oman and, you know, we sit alongside PIF and a group from Abu Dhabi, including Mobadle of Capital. And, you know, fundamentally, we control just under half the company. And Vlad is still the majority owner, Vlad Doranin. And in Delano, we own one third of the brand in partnership with Enosmore, which obviously is subsidiary of Accor. But I think having those eyes into the operational world and understanding the way these assets are working, what the issues are, enables you to invest and develop hotels with a similar eye and with a more informed eye. And I think that has created us an opportunity within this sector that very few people can replicate because we've been deep in it now. We've been in it for 10, 11 years. We understand it and we like getting involved in the detail of the development of these hotels. It enables us to have our own perspective. I think you find a lot of people going to this world now, they think they can just jump in and do deals with the hotel companies, but they don't really understand how to interact with them, how to deal with them. And the hotel companies don't treat them with the same level of respect because they haven't got the. The backstory that we've now got in those areas, which shows that we understand what we're doing. If you go to Boston today and look at the Raffles in Boston, it's just a beautiful hotel. I mean, it's food and beverage is doing phenomenally well. It's long bar up on the full train floor is exceptionally possessed. Hundreds of people going through it every day. And what you need to do is you need to create hotels that have lives, have, have. Have energy. We all. And we also want hotels that have soul. We want brands that have soul. And one of the things that we've been doing. I spent an hour on it today, was. Was working on the Delano brand. What does it mean? What does it stand for? What will it look like in 2025 when we reopen the hotel? You know, and, and how do we ensure that we're. We. We're up to date and we're modern, and we are. We are fulfilling the needs of our clients. And I think that we, you know, we as a business are now bringing that to the table. You know, we hired a amazing woman from. From Wynn, who's the. Who was the head of client experiences at Wynn. At Wynn, and her name's Anna Brand. And she's just bringing a totally different perspective of thinking to our business. I don't think many other investment businesses have that thinking within it. And she's, you know, and she's saying to me, you know, you know, that's not right. You know, you really need to be looking at it this way, because this is the way your customers will be looking at it. These are the. This is the way your people will be staying at your hotel. We look at it, and these are opportunities that we've got to maximize and create situations that, you know, are both good, hopefully, for our client base, but also. Also good for our assets and therefore good for us.

B (44:50)

It's so interesting that you raised Win, because I was at the Wynn two days ago, and I heard an interview that you gave where you talked about the greeter, about that first impression you get walking into a hotel and someone saying, welcome, Mr. Goldstein. Nice to have you here, and making you feel special. And it's just. It's giving me goose guns that you just raised your new colleague who came from Wynn. Because we pulled up to the front of the wind and out come the bellman, and there. And we had bikes on the roof of the car, and they're helping us get everything done. And they were great and very attentive but we walk through the entrance into the Tower Suites at the Wynn and this gentleman who was at the desk at the Tower Suites immediately engaged me in a conversation about our bikes. And he said, you know, have you done the Red Canyon here? And we had this wonderful conversation and the, the, the, it was so welcoming to me that he was thinking about, all right, here's someone who's just pulled up. They got bikes on the top. He's obviously a cyclist. Let me bring something up that makes me understand who he is. And it immediately got me engaged and it immediately made me feel like I was there. And by the way, of all the places on the face of the earth where you feel like kind of a number, it's Vegas, right? I mean, when you show up in Vegas, it's not like showing up in the desert at the Amman where you travel, travel for a day and you're the only person in the desert who's actually showing up. So it's a little bit easier there. And they also probably have about an hour headway that you've arrived at the airport and are making your way out there. But it was so special and unique and it made me feel like I belonged immediately. And my entire sense of checking in and going to our room and all of that felt that much better because of that gentleman making that effort.

A (46:41)

Now let me answer a question. Yeah. How institutionalized do you think that is? And one of the challenges that we have as businesses and we are working on this at the moment, is how do you institutionalize that? How do you capture that information that Willie is a cyclist and wherever he goes in that network, that's remembered, that's captured. Not just that, but that Willie likes a glass of red wine or he likes early morning calls, or he likes a personal trainer at 6:30 the next morning. How do you capture all that? And these are issues that we think about on a daily basis within our business because we want to ensure with the brands that we're involved with that you do get the experience that, that you as an individual deserve. And I think when you think about the luxury world, you know, each one of the trades that we're doing in terms of the sales in Beverly Hills is a is up individual, personal experience. These are big units. They are amazing. I mean, I can tell you they are absolutely phenomenal. They're going to be the best residential units in the world. They're designed by Norman Foster, they're improved by Kerry Hill, who are the Amman's specialist architects based out of Singapore. And virtually every Buyer is being spoken to by myself or Todd to make sure that they feel part that special process. And that's what we need. That's what you have to have at this level. You need to have that level of deep engagement to ensure that you have that connection, that you have that connectivity. And when you talk about luxury experiences and you know you will pay for that, if you know you're going to get that, you will pay for it. But woe betide a brand that doesn't reflect the values that it purports to reflect. And the interesting thing is the story you're referring to and I is the fact that we turned up at a hotel, my wife and I, and she was horrified because the doorman didn't say hello and the doors were dirty. And it's not that she was being prissy, but she was saying to me, you want to buy this hotel? Are you serious? Look at it. It's not good enough. And that's something that, you know, we run the six senses in Courchevel and I do believe it's, it's top down, right? You know, you talk about values, you talk about, you know, the nicest things we have in our business are the fact that we create these personal relationships. And if you, I, I, I, you know, if, if you ask me what my, what I believe my greatest strength is, right, it is this ability, my ability, because I mean it, right? I like meeting people and therefore I like talking to people and I like exposing myself to people in that way and them exposing themselves to me. Often my colleagues say to me, good Lord, how on earth did you know that about Willie? From one meeting I said, I don't know. He told me or I asked him one of the two, you know, but the head concierge at Six Sensors in Courchevel left recently and he went off to Portugal. He's a lovely young man. He wrote the nicest thing about, you know, on LinkedIn, about Kane and me and this and that, because we had treated these people properly and, and I think it's all part of this package. If you invest in people, people will invest in you and they'll invest in your assets and they'll invest in the relationships that come along with that.

B (50:21)

It's fantastic. And I think that one of the other pieces is post Covid how hard it has been to hold on to talented people, particularly in the hospitality industry. And we talk about how systematized is it at the window. They're both systems that allow that to happen. There's obviously training. When I was at business school, I don't know how many cases we did on Ritz Carlton because back in the day the way that Ritz Carlton trained excellence in customer service was in a, in a, in a level of its own. Not trying to ding Marriott that they've lost that, but I think it has evolved a little bit as, as Ritz has expanded the brand but the, the systems. Your, your comment about, you know, how do they know that? I will tell you. I went to the Four Seasons in Vail with my two young sons. This is 15 years ago. And we had a hamper in the room and I had two little kids and we were going skiing every day. So when we came back from skiing, I had all these dirty clothes that I had to put somewhere and in this room it had a hamper. And so as I was checking out of the Four Seasons in bail, I said then that hamper was fantastic. Thank you so much. And it was a big suite and the hamper kind of fit. And fast forward a month later I arrived in London and I go to the Four Seasons in London and what's in my small little room at the Four Seasons in London but a hamper. And I'm like, that's interesting that they put a hamper in my room in London and sure enough they put it into the system and it just said when Mr. Walker gets to the hotel. And so I had to actually go to the Four Seasons and I like the hamper when I had my two sons skis and I don't Four Seasons.

A (51:56)

An outlier doing that. Yeah. The ball seasons as an outlier doing that. You know, I'm not going to name other brands. Right. But I think the ability and the desire to personalize these issues in a luxury world is hugely important. Once you become a commodity, you the, you lose your edge and you've got big problems. Yeah.

B (52:18)

I want to close out real quick while we have just a couple minutes more just on football, because you are a director of Chelsea, as I think about your law career and running a very successful law firm in, in London into being in the real estate business. And you've obviously had the opportunity to experience all sorts of wonderful things of building buildings and you know, you just talked about what you and Todd are building out here in la. But there has to be something really, really fun to be associated with and be on the board of such an iconic football team as Chelsea. And to be part of that was that a. Did that just present itself as an opportunity because you and Todd were partners and it was there or was having an investment in, in a football team or being part of a major Premiership team a lifelong dream. I've, in all, everything I've read on you, I haven't seen that you were sort of a big football buff as a kid or that you were a, having football plays or whatever else.

A (53:25)

I've always been a massive sports fan and in fact we recently acquired, Todd and I, a stake in one, in a franchise in cricket, which is another passion of mine in the UK. It wasn't a win in 2022 when I started working with Todd. He had just acquired the Dodgers with Mark Walters and the consortium with Magic Johnson runs. And that's been a hugely successful run for them over the course of that, you know, the last 12, 13 years. They subsequently acquired a substantial stake in the Lakers. So, you know, I, I, I talked to Todd for a number of years and we, we looked around the marketplace for a number of years to understand the Premier League very well. And you know, it's a long story, I won't give you the full story but, you know, we were well positioned when the Ukraine war started and the, you know, it was very, very clear that Roman Abramovich would, you know, had put the club up for sale. He had become a sanctioned individual within the uk. I, I say that with no comment as to whether that's right or wrong. It's just, it's just a fact that that was the decision made by the British government post for Ukraine invasion in 2022. And therefore, because we had good reputations within the marketplace by then, because we had been around the game for a few years, we were well placed and Todd really led the charge in leading the acquisition and securing it for the consortium and was joined by Clearlake, led by Dadek Barley and obviously Todd and Bedad are the ones, the major faces and the drivers of the club moving forward and you know, obviously now World Club Champions and have done that phenomenally successfully. Yeah, it was a very lovely day in, in, in New York in July to, to see Todd walking out with President Trump and Infantino FIFA and you know, going, you know, as part of that procession to them watch President Trump hand over the World Club Championship to Chelsea. And yeah, it's a, it's a thrill from where I started to be. You know, playing at this level has been an amazing journey and you know, I'm very proud of, you know, involvement in that at that level. You know, Chelsea is an iconic brand, it's an amazing football club. You know, I'm very excited about the way in which, you know, the leadership of the club has taken it, you know, on in the course of the last couple of years amidst much media comment and some media criticism, which I think has been proved to be wrong. And I think we're well placed as we, you know, fact tonight, in a couple of hours, Chelsea will have it, or three hours, will have its second Premier League game of the season. So people watching this will know against West Ham, and I think, you know, the squad that's been built, well positioned, the women's team's done phenomenally well in Britain and winning the, you know, the Women's Premier League multiple times over the course of the last few years. And, you know, very, very proud, by the way, that the women's team has built itself up and is really a global leader in that aspect of the sport. And, yeah, it's a thrill to be involved, so very proud and very excited about what can be achieved by the club over the course of the next 5, 10, 15 years off for so long as I'm associated.

B (57:00)

So one final story on that as it relates to ownership of sports teams and investments that I saw a. Somebody who'd run the math on the previous owner of the Lakers, where he bought the Lakers for, I think, either 68 or $70 million back in 1977 or 1978. And they'd calculated, because he sold them for 10 billion to Todd in the consortium. They, they calculated their return and they, they basically said that if you had invested in the S&P 500 and reinvested dividends, very important piece to this calculation, reinvested dividends, that you would have had a better return in the S&P 500 than you would have buying the LA Lakers for $70 million and selling them for 10 billion. And I forwarded that to a bunch of my friends saying, wow, this is kind of interesting, but obviously Butts had pulled a lot of money out of the team during that period of time, whereas you would have had to reinvest your dividends. And one of my buddies wrote me back, he said, reinvest dividends, cash flow, whatever else. He said, Larry bird and Kevin McHale against Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Come on. Priceless. Like, you know, like, who cares about the return of the S&P 500? He got to experience that. And, and I think that your involvement with Chelsea and being on the board has got to be one of those really fun life experiences which just sort of says it's not about the money, it's about the experience.

A (58:18)

I, it's not. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, obviously, you know, the, the scale of the investment that's been made in the club, that the people who have made the investment are looking for us, you know, over time, a return. Okay. But it's not something you can judge in straight lines. These are long term annuities, these are long term opportunities. And, and they're, they're special brands. And you can't recreate that history. You can't recreate that opportunity. And whether it's the number of, you know, NBA titles the Lakers have won or the number of World Series the Dodgers have won won, or the number of World Cups or European champ, you know, your, you know, the European, you know, cups that, that Chelsea has won, you can't create, recreate these opportunities. And it does create special moments. It creates special moments for you, for your colleagues, for your families and, and for the supporter base. And ultimately, you know, I think the thing that most important to remember when you're involved with these assets is that, you know, I meet so many people in London who, you know, been Chelsea fans the whole of their lives. I was not a Chelsea fan the whole of my life. And who feel completely and appropriately and rightly vested and invested in that club. And they, and you know, you are a custodian, absolutely, you are a custodian of the football club for your supporter base. And you have to make sure that you fulfill and achieve the desires and dreams of your supporter base. And hopefully if you do that, you'll achieve your own dreams and, and, and desires. And I think it's another example of understanding that you're not just there for yourself. This is, you know, that the person who goes off and lives their life thinking that they are the be all end all, you know, is, is in real trouble. You know, there's an awful lot of people in the cemetery, you know, who thought they were irreplaceable. And I think we always have to remember that, you know, we're just a small speck in this world and small speck on the universe, but we can have an impact. We can make a difference. But we need to make a difference and sort of, you know, leave it in the right way. And if I, if I could, as you were bringing to it, if I could leave with one thing, you know, you know, the, one of them overriding principles, you know, you know, which is very much an ethical one, you know, that a good reputation is worth more than riches. And you know, if you if you leave the life and leave the business world where people think, you know, you're a decent fellow, I don't think people are going to judge you by your scorecard at the end of the day. And I think those people who do judge themselves by scorecards get it wrong and understand, understand the role, the world the wrong way around. But I think if you understand that actually what's more important is what people think about you and how you treated people, then you've got half the chance of succeeding. Because I think on that basis you get that sort of connectivity with people which, which ultimately I think gets repaid and may not make you the richest man in the world, but it does do in a different sense than, you know, pound, shillings and pence or dollars and cents.

B (61:25)

You started showing your humility and your understanding of the world we live in, and we close with you showing those two things again. Jonathan, thank you. It's been a real pleasure. Really, really appreciate you Love diving in. We, we talked, you know, for five minutes about real estate and 55 minutes about life lessons and how to, how to lead and be a good person. And I'm super, super thankful for that. Thank you for taking the time and thank you for everyone who joined us today.

A (61:52)

Thanks, Willie. It's been a pleasure to be with you. Thanks a lot, Sam.