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- [00:01]
A
Walker and Dunlop brings you insights for life, Unique perspectives from impactful leaders. This is the Walker webcast with Willie Walker. It is my great pleasure to have Katie Higgins Cook join me for this leadership summit here in New York City and to join us for a live edition of the Walker Webcast. Katie, welcome.
- [00:49]
B
Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here, Willie. I don't get to New York often, but I can definitely say this is where, one, the best dressed room I've ever been in, and two, probably one of the most powerful female rooms that I've been in. So thank you so much for having me. Definitely happy to be here.
- [01:06]
A
You're a true pioneer. Coming from a military family, both grandfathers being pilots, a father who was a pilot, what made you think to go into aviation?
- [01:19]
B
So actually, you know, I would say I was inspired to a life of service from my paternal grandfather. I called him Bucky. And so my father's side of my family came from Sweden, and Bucky was a second generation American. And so his family literally came over with nothing. And within two generations, his service to the military brought our family from nothing to upper middle class. And so he really instilled this idea of service and giving back to a country that had given my family so much. We truly lived the American dream. And so one of my cousins works for the Institute of the Blind. One is a social worker, and my brother and I both went in the military. And so when I was in high school, I knew I wanted to give back in some way. I didn't know if it was a firefighter, police officer, even considered the nunnery at one point. But I wanted to have children and they tend to frown upon that. So ultimately led me to the Naval Academy and then to military service. I did know that I wanted to be in the sky if that was the path that I chose. And so I went into the Naval Academy with a goal of becoming a pilot. And luckily it worked out that way.
- [02:30]
A
So you didn't apply to West Point?
- [02:31]
B
I did. I actually applied to West Point, the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy. I got into all three and chose the Naval Academy, the right path.
- [02:43]
A
Would your dad have ever forgiven you if you'd gone to West Point?
- [02:46]
B
Yeah, I think he would have. I mean, I think there would have been that, obviously the rivalry. But I will say, you know, my father attended the Naval Academy in the class of 1981. The first class of women was 1980. And so he saw basically what women went through, being the first or being the few as you're going through. And I know we're going to talk about that further as we go down this conversation, but when I decided to go to the Naval Academy, he cried. Not because he wasn't proud of me, but he had this apprehension of what it was going to be like as a woman at the Naval Academy. Luckily, we've come a long way since then. When I went, the Naval Academy was 20% women. And so we'd made a lot of strides there. But he was concerned, he was scared about it. And I think he would have been. Had the same apprehension no matter which service academy I went to. But he knows that I ultimately landed in the right place.
- [03:40]
A
At the Naval Academy, there was in. In the first class in 76 that graduated in 80, there were like, five women, correct?
- [03:48]
B
Y. Yeah.
- [03:48]
A
So your dad was the following year. So he was there when there was just such a small cohort, Correct?
- [03:52]
B
Yep. That's.
- [03:53]
A
And did he give you any advice as you headed to Annapolis as it relates to being a. I mean, at the. By the time you got there, it was 20% women, but still, one in five is not exactly, you know, equal representation.
- [04:04]
B
Right.
- [04:05]
A
Is there anything that he said to you as it relates to do this. Be careful of this.
- [04:10]
B
I wouldn't say gender dynamics wise. He. He was. Gave any advice. It's. It's a little bit hard when you're a white man to kind of put your shoes in the. In the experiences of other people. But I will say, you know, he instilled in this idea that I could do whatever the heck I put my mind to. He didn't say that there was going to be barriers. In fact, he encouraged me. If there wasn't someone that looked like me or wasn't someone of the same demographics that I could be the first. Right. He, you know, even assumed there were proverbial barriers for me, and I think that's what caused me to, you know, go the path. The reason I'm talking to you today go the path down as the first female Blue angel pilot is because I never really saw it as a barrier. I never really saw it as, you know, hey, there isn't somebody that looks like me. I can't. I can't pursue this because my dad never put any obstacles on me in the first place or any restrictions on me in the first place. So.
- [05:07]
A
Did you know when you were at Annapolis that you wanted to come out and be a naval aviator?
- [05:11]
B
Yes. So I knew I wanted to be a pilot right away because my. I mean, I'm a Third generation pilot. I kind of had it in my blood. Like you have families of doctors. I just happen to have like, really cool lineage that I kind of followed. But I thought I wanted to be a Navy jet pilot, right? That's what I went in thinking. And when I was at the academy, I got exposed to the Marine Corps because if you didn't know about 25% of all commissioned graduates from the Naval Academy go Marine Corps. And I got exposed to a couple of Marine officers. And then on my summer training, I got exposed to enlisted Marines. And when I tell you that they are some of the most professional people that I've ever met in my life, they really, truly embody this idea of honor, courage, commitment. They knew their jobs and their roles down pat. And I knew if I wanted to be the best version of myself, you know, that old adage of like steel sharpen steel, tho leading individuals like that would make me the best version of myself. And I wanted to be exposed to that. I wanted to learn from them. And so ultimately I chose a little bit of a deviated path, went Marine Corps. I will say. My mom about had a heart attack, as you can imagine. I went to the Academy in 2004, graduated in 2008. So we were in the midst of Operation Enduring Freedom. My father had served in it, and so my mom was freaking out that I was, that I was going to have to deploy. Not to mention that my little brother actually followed me to the academy. So there was both of us. And fast forward a couple of years. We were actually both deployed at the exact same time. So my mom was really freaking out then. But the Marine Corps ultimately, I would say aligned more with, with my values. Not that there's anything against the Navy, but, but at the time aligned with my values. And I still pursued aviation in that path. I obviously wasn't a jet pilot. I went, I selected C130s, which is a very large aircraft with four engines. If you've ever seen the Blue Angels perform. I flew Fat Albert. That's her name, if you, if you are aware of this show. And you know, I was a little disappointed. I would say, you know, I was, I, I would say in the back of my mind, I really wanted to do close air support, right? So when I was in flight school, I actually almost got into a, A, a plane crash. I was, it was, we were flying formations is what we call it. So I was learning how to fly with another airplane. And I was a new pilot or a boot pilot as we like to call it, as A new pilot. I had never flown instruments, which means I didn't know what any of that stuff meant really. In the, in the glass cockpit, I could look outside and I can point the airplane where it needed to go. But as far as using the instruments to fly, I, I, I was not proficient in that. And so we were flying as a two ship, ended up socked in in weather. We were in a thunderstorm. And so my instructor says that my controls, I give them the controls and I'm looking outside because I don't know any better. That's how I fly VFR flying is what we call it. I don't know the instruments out. And so I'm looking outside and I see a hole, I mean, a gap in the, in the clouds. And so I'm like, oh, okay, he's, that's what he's doing. He's flying over there. Well, what I didn't know is he had gotten the leans. If you're ever familiar, if you've heard anything about the leans, it's where you get disoriented because there's no clear horizon that you can see. And so thank goodness I was looking outside because we broke out of the clouds and all I could see were trees. So what had happened is we ended up 90 degrees angle of bank, 30 degrees nose low, going straight towards the ground. I luckily was looking outside because I didn't know any better and was able to grab the stick as hard as I could, pulled it into my stomach. We actually over G'd the plane, oversped the plane, and they pulled the black box later. And by the time that we had recovered the two ship, we were 50ft above the ground when we recovered. So we got very, very close to almost getting in a, in an accident. There was a lot of my instructor had to go back through. The instructor rag is what we call they had to go back through training. But at the end of that, I basically scared the crap out of myself and was like, I don't want to go fast. I don't want to go like, I don't want to shoot weapons anymore. I just want to give gas, right? I just want to go low and slow or high and slow and just give gas. And so that's why I decided, hey, C130s were the, were the, you know, choice for me. C130s are very competitive in the Marine Corps. There's only three squadrons, so they only select 12 pilots a year. I luckily got one of those positions due to my performance in flight school. But I would say in the back of my mind, it was still like, I really wanted to do close air support. I really want to be like my dad and support those Marine sailors, you know, allies, soldiers on the ground. And so I did have, like, a little bit of a disappointment. Well, fast forward, I get to my airplane, the C130, and we actually have a variant called the Harvest Hawk, which is a C130 that shoots hellfire and Griffin missiles. And I happened to land right in the pipeline and got selected for this platform. And so when I deployed, I actually was on this platform and we fired more munitions than all other fixed wing assets combined. And so I do believe that, you know, everything happens for a reason. And for me, I was still able to pursue this mission of close air support, even though I didn't end up selecting jets. So I know that was a very long answer to your question. I'm sorry.
- [10:36]
A
Okay. You covered a lot of ground there.
- [10:38]
B
I did. I did.
- [10:39]
A
So on that one, though, on when you were in Afghanistan and you were called in to basically rescue a Marine unit that was trapped behind enemy lines, some of you may have seen the movie back in 2013, Lone Survivor. That's very analogous to what Katie did as far as her rescue mission for this group of Marines. Talk about that. Because, I mean, you clearly wanted that type of exposure to combat. You'd picked a different route, and now all of a sudden, boom.
- [11:09]
B
Y.
- [11:10]
A
Whatever. Five years later, you're right in the thick of things.
- [11:13]
B
Yep. So essentially what happened here is we. I was supporting the Marines in Helman province. You guys have probably heard about that on the news. And so my C130 can orbit for about 13 hours, and so that helps set up, like, situational awareness of what's going on.
- [11:34]
A
What's the longest you can stay in the cockpit? It can stay up there 13 hours. You can't be flying for.
- [11:38]
B
No, I can.
- [11:39]
A
You can.
- [11:39]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [11:40]
A
They don't have the same stuff as, like, timing out like commercial pilots did.
- [11:43]
B
So you can't. So, yes, there is, like, timing out, and there's like, the amount of hours that you can fly in a month and. But you can get any. In a war zone, you can get a waiver for anything. Right. Like, I don't mean to be flippant about that, but I have. I have flown more than 100 hours in a month or whatever the requirements were. But yeah, you can fly longer than 12 hours at a time, but then you. They really care about your crew. Rest on the back end that you're not Doing kind of back to back missions and you have that stacked up fatigue. But this, this particular incident you're talking about. So I, before you actually deploy, we have these things called workups. And that's where you do all of your mission sets in a safe environment before you go overseas and someone shooting at you while you're trying to do those same missions. Right. And so for me, it was close air support, it was giving gas, it was dropping flares. We have really bright flares that can illuminate about a kilometer space so that people can see. We drop people and things out the back of an airplane. And so we do all these mission sets in country before you go overseas to do them. And I was not originally scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan, but there was a pilot who actually popped for a heart murmur about six weeks prior to deployment and they needed to swap them out. And they were like, who can do this training in six months in a six week period? And because of, you know, some of the other stuff that I'd done at the squadron, I had built a reputation and they selected me to do that. And so as a result, I had never shot a missile before I went to combat, which is crazy. I had practiced it, I knew how to do it, but never had like an actual missile come off the rails and go anywhere until I was in combat. And so my very first time doing that is this story that you're talking about. So we had a.
- [13:27]
A
Hold it. Does that feel like firing a gun? In other words, we've all, I think many people here have had the, the, the kickback that comes from firing a gun. Do you get that when you launch that missile off the plane?
- [13:38]
B
So not in my aircraft. Right. So the C130 harvest hawk had a sensor on one side and then they had a hellfire rack of four by hellfire on the other side. And so when it comes off, you can hear it, but you don't get any kind of jerk or anything in the airplane.
- [13:53]
A
And then do you get to track.
- [13:55]
B
Oh yeah.
- [13:56]
A
So you've got a monitor in front of you that sees whether you hit your target or not.
- [13:58]
B
So we have a sled, what it's called a sled in the back and there are two fire control officers and they have a tracker. They're in the, in the bay of the, of the airplane. Right. And so they, they're tracking it, they're lasing it and, and getting it all the way in. And we also have the ability to GPS track.
- [14:15]
A
And do you have to be thinking about whether it hits or not or the moment it goes, you're thinking about the next, next part of the mission. In other words, are you sitting there saying we're going to have to loop back if we didn't hit it or is it just I need to keep going on this run and it's up to them to track whether we were successful or not.
- [14:29]
B
So it's a little bit of both. Right. That's the best part about being in a, in a crew driven weapon is what we like to call it. Right. The two fire control officers are making sure that the missile is actually hitting its target. I'm making sure we're not hitting anything right as we're flying and that we can set ourselves up for a reattack if we have to. So we're talking to the people on the ground to make sure that the effects that we see on the monitor are the effects that they needed on the ground. And so it's a little bit of both. But I would say the, obviously the first concern is safety of the aircraft and safety of the people aboard. And so that's what as the piloting in command that you're kind of worried about and then someone else is talking on the radio, then someone else is lazing and so that's what makes it such an effective weapon system.
- [15:16]
A
And do you have to drop to a lower altitude to launch those missiles? That then puts you in harm's way more significantly than just cruising.
- [15:24]
B
So staying like completely.
- [15:28]
A
This is not off the record.
- [15:29]
B
Right, Exactly. So I just. Right. So I can't, I can't. I'm not going to say anything, not secret or anything like that.
- [15:34]
A
Chatham House rules here.
- [15:35]
B
Right? Exactly. Yes. No, So I would say we have an altitude that we operate out that's pretty standard. You can go lower, you can go higher. But we, we tend to train at a certain altitude that keeps us out of the danger range of some weapons of where I was in Afghanistan, I was out of the range of dangerous weapons. Some of our other more advanced adversaries you would not be.
- [16:01]
A
And so I just want to pause for two seconds. I get tickled listening to such an accomplished woman talk about these types of things that typically you'd only hear a man talk about. And so for all you've done and your service to our country, but just to hear you talk about these things that typically would be some guy being like, well we do this and it was like this attack thing, it's really quite something, all the accomplishments that you've had. But I've Interrupted you on your story.
- [16:28]
B
No, you're okay.
- [16:29]
A
This recovery, you're okay.
- [16:31]
B
So, so these, so these marines were in Helmand Province. It was a squad worth of marines and they were pinned down by a three man PKM team, which is a machine gun on top of a building. And so we were just kind of on a ISR mission. It's just an intel mission. So we were just kind of bebopping around and giving people a readout of what the, what was going on in the area. So no, no real requirements at the time.
- [17:00]
A
Just burning fuel.
- [17:01]
B
Just burning fuel, looking around. Yeah. Collecting intel. And then we get a tick or a Troops in contact. So that means that the controller calls us and says, hey, we've got some marines that are in contact. It could be marines, it could be sailors are shot for all different kinds, but in this case it was marines. And so they start giving us space. It's called a nine line. And so it gives you, you know where you need to go, who's getting shot at. It's kind of, kind of tells you exactly where you need to position the airplane to be able to shoot. And so as soon as we hear that, oh, troops in contact, you're like max blast trying to get over there. You're typing in everything in the computer to make sure that you get the right coordinates and all this stuff. And as we're talking to the jtac or that's the Joint Terminal Attack Controller, he's the guy on the ground that's actually getting shot at with these other Marines. You could actually hear the rounds on the radio like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick hitting behind him. You could hear explosions of like RPGs pinning them down.
- [17:53]
A
So Lone Survivor is not far from what they were dealing with.
- [17:56]
B
So lone serve. So Lone Survivor, he, yes, he was being chased and, and pursued by enemy. Right. He. My guys were not quote unquote, like behind enemy lines, right? They were where they were supposed to be. They were on their patrols and they got attacked while they were on a patrol, if that makes sense. And so, so they're getting shot at. He clears us for, for two by Hellfire. So we, we're in our orbit at a undisclosed altitude. We ran our orbit and we get cleared to turn in. So we turn in, we fire two by Hellfire and dead silent. And so like I didn't even realize that I was holding my breath at the time until I get the crackle of the radio that said like, good hit. It's been, you know, threat's been neutralized. Whatever. And so, like, you know, you, you finally let out this sign, you're like, okay, they're good, they're good. Literally onto the next mission. Like, literally, we'll get a next call that's like, okay, these people are troops in contact. And you're like, oh, and you have to go to the next one. And so you don't. Your heart doesn't even really get a time to calm down. But this is the very first time that I had ever sent anything off the rails. So it's very memorable to me. It's also memorable because flash forward six months, I'm on my second deployment. I'm in Spain this time. I, on this deployment, I ultimately, in a couple of months will go and evacuate the embassy out of South Sudan when it was being overrun in early 2014. But in the setup to that, so reverse back, I'm in Spain, I'm in a bar like any good pilot, and, and I'm talking to some people and a guy comes up behind me and he was like, hey, hey, did you fly filth02, which is my call sign in Afghanistan? And I said, yeah, yeah, I did. And he's like, I was on this patrol with this squad and I was pinned down by a three man PKM team. And he starts telling me this story back to me and he's like, I recognize your voice from the radio.
- [19:55]
A
Oh, wow.
- [19:56]
B
Yeah. And so I still get chills when I tell that story because I joined the Marine Corps because I wanted to support those, those allies, those service members, those Americans on the ground. And I actually could put a face with the name, right? A lot of people who do close air support who do that mission set don't necessarily get to meet the person that they actually shot for. And I just so happen to do it. And so it's, it was really cool. And Harrison Ford actually picked that story up and like told it, and it's on a video on YouTube if you want to go see him. It just made it cool that Harrison Ford even knows who I am.
- [20:29]
A
So, so what gave you the thought to try out for the Blue Angels? I mean, you were a valedictorian of your high school class. You go to the Naval Academy, you come out, you've served in combat, and now it's like, well, let's just see if I can be the first woman ever selected by the Blue Angels. Where's that come from?
- [20:48]
B
So there that. That thought of I want to be the first woman to be a Blue angel literally never crossed my mind, ever. It Never crossed my mind.
- [20:58]
A
I believe in. I mean, so there have only been 298 Blue Angels in the history of the Blue Angels. Blue Angels have been around for over 70 years and they've only. There are less than 300 pilots who have served as a Blue Angel. So this is his elite. A core as you can possibly get to. You clearly knew that no woman had ever served.
- [21:19]
B
No, no, I did it. I did it.
- [21:21]
A
Just took it that.
- [21:22]
B
Hey, so I didn't know that. So, so reverse back, right? Why did I even apply? So there is a guy that I served with in my squadron. He was an instructor when I was a student. We went through together. I had built this reputation in my community, in my C130 community. And he was on the Blue Angels at the time. Reached out and said, hey, I think you should try out for this. And I was like, no, I want to. I want to, you know, fly in combat. I want to continue to deploy. I want to do all this. And it was really my mom who was like, you have been deployed so much so. And you. I'll give you an example. I was deployed so much in 2013 that I had to pay zero taxes because I appeared to be under the poverty line because I was in a. I was in a combat zone for so long. And so, so my mom was like, can you just try to do something stateside for a little bit? And so I was like, okay, well I don't typically in the Marine Corps when you do something stateside, it's like it's on the ground. It's a non flying tour. It's still cool, right? But it's not flying. And if you're a pilot who didn't want to get out of the air aircraft it. There's only like a few and far between. B Billets is what we call them. Blue Angels was one of them. So I was like, hey, I could fly the shit out of an airplane. Excuse my French. Sorry, we're recording.
- [22:34]
A
But all good. That's permitted.
- [22:36]
B
Yeah. So fly this.
- [22:36]
A
What altitude you fly at is not. But you can.
- [22:39]
B
I can tell you what I flew at on the Blue Angels, right? I can fly at 40ft on the Blue Ang. A C130 with 139 foot wingspan and not get my wings taken away. Right. I'm never going to be able to fly that way anywhere else. And so I was like, this is going to be so, so freaking cool. And so he reached out to me, asked me to apply. I did. Application process was crazy. It's Like a. Basically a college application. I had to write essays, get letters of recommendation, show them my combat experience, all that. Then you have to go and do an interview. And in the interview, it's. They. So it's. It's a long cherry table with all of the pilots, and you can imagine their blue suits, the yellow stripe. And I'm in there in my dress uniform, and you sit at the end of the table, and they can pepper you with questions during this interview. And for me, they had lowered the seat all the way down. And so I get there, and I'm like this, right? Because I'm smaller than anyone. Any. Anyways. And so during this interview, I got a couple of questions like, oh, your dad's a captain in the Navy. I got a question. Couple of questions about him. And then I got a question of, like, well, you would be the first woman pilot to fly with the Blue Angels. How would you handle that? And my response was, I didn't know I would be. Was how I answered the question. I honestly believe the reason that I got selected for the team is because that was my answer. If I had come to the team to be like, I want this to be the Katie show. I want to pave the way for all women. Like, if I had done something like that, I don't think I would have been selected because I wasn't there for myself. I was there because I just wanted to represent the Navy and Marine Corps team. I just wanted to, again, do some really cool flying and be just like every other pilot that. That was interested in. Ultimately. Ultimately, I got to the place of, holy cow, I'm. I'm helping pave the way for some women. But I wasn't there in the beginning. It wasn't until I had met young girls throughout my time, and I could see that I was making a difference and I was making an impact. And I could tell little boys who would say, women can't be pilots. I could be like, well, what do you think I am? I'm standing right in front of you, right? To be able to show women, you could be Marines. You could be pilots. Heck, you can even be a freaking blue angel if you want to be. That was. That was the moment that my brain switched a little bit of, like, what I'm doing is. Is bigger than myself.
- [24:57]
A
So have you carried. And I want to stay on the military experience, so I'm not moving on to your professional experience at Salesforce. But if you. That. That. That scene of you being at the end of the cherry table with A group of men around the table all kind of looking down at you of sort of. You're clearly the odd one out in this room. There's not a woman in this room who hasn't felt that in corporate America.
- [25:17]
B
Yep.
- [25:17]
A
But you're being there for what you truly wanted to do, rather than what you, if you will. You didn't even know what the answer would have been if you hadn't been sort of oblivious to.
- [25:27]
B
Right, right.
- [25:27]
A
But have you carried that into your professional career as it relates to how you walk into that room?
- [25:32]
B
I would say yes. I mean, I think I am. I'm much more cognizant of what a room's makeup is solely because I would say when I was young, I didn't have a mentor. I. That was a woman. Right. Because the Marine Corps is only 9% women. So if you shrink that down to the officers, you shrink that down to pilots, you shrink that down to C130 pilots, there's like two of us. Right. And so I didn't really have a mentor. And so when I walk into a room now, as an executive, I purposely look at gender dynamics to look at who are the minorities in the room who would normally not speak up. Right. Who. Who doesn't feel like they have a seat at the table. And I feel like it's my responsibility to. To at least acknowledge their voice, give them an opportunity to speak. So I personally don't go into a room and have any concerns about if I'm able to talk. I bully my way in there, but I. I am cognizant about it now. So that other people have a voice that perhaps maybe haven't had a mentor, haven't had that guidance when they were, you know, as they're coming up in their career.
- [26:41]
A
So you get selected. And by the way, it's a vote of all of. It's not like there's some
- [26:48]
B
leeway.
- [26:48]
A
Admiral who sits there, kicks you for it, and one person has a decision. It's all the pilots who vote on whether you came in. Correct.
- [26:55]
B
It has to be unanimous.
- [26:56]
A
It has to be unanimous decision that them wanted her to be on the team. Yeah. In the process of that, you made history. And all of a sudden there's sort of derivative impacts of you making history, how you deal with that. All of a sudden it's, you know, there's a. There's a. You know, there's a news flash. The Blue Angels have just let their first woman become a Blue Angel. How'd you that. That was not something you were going for. And yet all of a sudden it's thrust upon you. How'd you handle that?
- [27:24]
B
So I will tell you, like Katie is an introvert by nature. And so the, all of a sudden you're in the media and you're, you're having to talk to people and you're doing podcasts and stuff. It was a skill that I had to learn and it was a self consciousness that I had to overcome. And I will say, being the first or being the few, there is an enormous pressure, right? Especially if you are a minority group because you know that you are representing more than just yourself, right? So we'll give an example here, right? One woman is a bad driver. All women are bad drivers, right? But if you look at the statistics, 62% of car accidents are caused by dudes, right? And they are three times more likely to cause fatal car accidents. But one woman's a bad driver, all women are bad drivers, or all women are crazy, right? But when you look at it, when that doesn't generally apply to the majority, right? Let's just as a, you know, kind of offshoot here, when we talk about sexual violence or sexual harassment in the United States, we hear not all men, right? We hear not all men. A lot of times when a, you know, men will get the, oh, he's just a bad guy. Not all guys are bad. Women or minorities generally don't get that. And so the pressure is very real when you are the first or you are the few. And so as I was going through knowing I was the first, I felt like I had the world of every woman on my shoulders. Because if I didn't succeed, if I was not successful, the next narrative would be, are any women going to be successful in this position? Right? And I didn't want to let a future blue angel down because I, I couldn't hack it. So that, that pressure was, was very real. And as I'm sure I'm going to relate to several women in this room, maybe I'm a little bit older, but as a firstborn, perfectionist, millennial woman, I wanted everybody to like me. I was a people pleaser. And I think a lot of people in this room probably grew up with that. In our society, women tend to, to conform to that of this people pleasing thing. And so when I showed up, I thought, you know, if I produce excellence in everything I do, if I fly, great, if I'm awesome at my PR stuff, if I'm, you know, if I inspire all of these people, everyone's gonna love me. And I'm gonna feel great about. Everyone's gonna be supportive. That was definitely not the case, right? There were people, there were women who were jealous. There were women who were mean and, and making rumors up about me. And there were several comments on the Internet of, you know, she's just gonna fail. She's gonna get her period and not be able to fly, right? Like, all of these things that, that you. That you could hear. And I was reading every comment, right? And so. And I would say, even to this day, I struggle with. I want people to like me, right? But it took figuring out. It really took getting through the Blue Angels a little bit to realize, like, the haters are gonna hate, right? The haters are gonna hate. And you gotta stop reading the comments, and you got to focus on those that are there cheering for you, right? That little girl who's super pumped that you signed her an autograph for her, somebody that you wrote a note for, they framed it, and then they write you three years later that they went to college and are pursuing an aviation degree, right? Like, that stuff is what I had to anchor on to get through the pressure that I was feeling, that I was making a difference, that what I was doing here was worth it. That's what I had to anchor on because I could have gotten swallowed up by the negativity and, and things. And so I. I still fight that battle today, and I'm. I'm really trying to live by. I have a. A quote in my daughter. She's. She's five years old. I think it's often attributed to Dr. Seuss, right? It's. It says. It says, be you are, and. And. And say what you will, Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind. Right. And I may have butchered that, but you get the sense of it, right? Like those that, that are there for you, cheering in your corner, those are the people, your. Your board of directors that are always going to have your back and. And will guide you in a. In a positive, constructive way. And those that don't, who cares? Right? And that was such a hard lesson for me to learn to. To navigate the pressure.
- [31:42]
A
It's interesting, your comment about wanting to be liked.
- [31:45]
B
Yeah.
- [31:46]
A
I was having dinner a couple weeks ago with a mayor of a US City who had a pretty challenging first year to two years in office and has now really hit and hit his stride. And I said to him, Mr. Mayor, what has made the change? And he looked at me and he said, I stopped worrying about pissing people Off.
- [32:07]
B
Yeah.
- [32:07]
A
And I thought it was so. And he just sort of said, I wanted everyone to like me. And all of a sudden I realized that if I was going to truly lead this city forward, I had to stop thinking about pleasing everyone and go for what I really believed in, to drive issues forward. And I, the moment he said that to me, I was like, he's rolling, he's, he's ready to go. Now you've been called, you have a motherly side to you.
- [32:30]
B
Yes.
- [32:31]
A
People who have worked with you look at your motherly side, particularly in a male dominated world, and talk about that balance between being sort of the, you know, if you will, kick ass, strong willed woman that you just talked about and then also allowing your natural motherly instincts to take hold as it relates to both your leadership as well as the way you bring teams together.
- [32:54]
B
Yeah. So I would say in the beginning, when I was really young, a boot Marine, if you will, I thought Marines had to be a certain way, like full Metal jacket yelling at people, you know, and if you were outside the norm, you weren't going to be a good Marine. And that was, and, and I was told as a midshipman when I selected Marine Corps that, you know, I would not be successful because I don't, I'm not a stereotypical yelling at people Marine. And so I tried to fake it. I tried to fake it. I tried to be the yeller. I tried to hold people to this, to, you know, knife hands and all the stuff that you see in the Marine Corps. And frankly, the Marines saw right through it. Right. They saw that it was disingenuous. They saw that I was wearing a mask and it wasn't building trust in teams. Right. And so I was like, screw it. I'm just going to lead the way that I have have learned to lead from the example of my father, from the example of some leaders that I really respect. And yes, to your point, I've had multiple Marines, instead of call me ma', am, accidentally call me mom to my face, which is, which is kind of funny. But, but in reality, like when you have a standard of leadership or a type of leadership that Marines are exposed to consistently throughout their career, and then you get a white whale, if you will, a different type of leadership that will sometimes jar them out of a, of, out of the lull or the, you know, same, same kind of thing every day. It's a new, it's a new thing. And I don't think that weakness or differences in leadership make you a worse leader. And I'LL give you an example here really quickly. So I have four children. I had two of my children when I was in command of an airfield of 150 marines. And I was the senior person there, the only woman. And I, after the birth of my second child, had very bad postpartum depression. And as a result, I had to go get help from my doctor. I got put on medication. I went through counseling, and it repaired my relationship with my son. And we're great now, and he's. He's seven years old, and we're all healthy. And it was a great decision for me. Now, in the Marine Corps, you are in the military in general, you've probably heard the statistics that 22 veterans and military commit suicide a day. And so as a result, we have a lot of suicide prevention training, things like that. And so it happens biannually. And so our biannual training was coming up. And, you know, I was debating, do I. Do I tell my command or do I tell my Marines as their commander that I had gotten help, that I sought these resources out. I'm already the quote, unquote, like weaker sex. What are they, what are they going to think of me? And I'd made the decision again, screw it. I'm going to. I'm going to. I don't care what people think about me. I'm going to do what I think is right. And so I told them that I. I sought help, and I'm much healthier now, and I'm not being punished in my career. And, you know, I'm able to give the best of myself to both my Marines and, and my son. And literally 48 hours afterwards, I had four Marines in my office saying that they were going to seek treatment themselves because they knew I wasn't going to hold them, hold it against them. They knew that I didn't see it as a weakness. And so sometimes sharing or sometimes, you know, showing a vulnerability, whether you're a man or a woman, can open the door to, to allow others to show that as well and maybe show that they're struggling or maybe that they need some help. And so, you know, I. Now I see the, the mom thing. Absolutely. Even in, in my career at Salesforce, I would say I'm. I'm vastly older than the majority of the people that are in my same vertical. I work in operations, sales, strategy. And most of them are like data analysts right out of college, you know, Gen Z. And then there's me, 10, 10, 15 years older. I'm the only one with kids and And I'm, I'm like the older sister or the mom to, to a lot of them. And I don't think that that's a bad thing because it allows people to be a lot more vulnerable. They don't feel like they need to put up walls. They don't feel like they need to be hard all the time.
- [37:12]
A
What gave you the confidence to be so vulnerable? Because it's, hearing you talk about it, it's, it's incredible. But it's very hard to show vulnerability in a leadership role and particularly given all you just stacked up there as it relates to why you always felt like you had to not only be as good, be better than everyone around you. So how did you, at that moment when you said, I mean you, you said screw it. I'm just going to say it. But I'm sure that there was more to that. What was it that gave you the confidence to be able to do that?
- [37:48]
B
You know, I, as a leader, when I was on the Blue Angels, I lost a good friend of mine in a plane crash. And the, the heartbreak and the just the loss that you go through when you lose a friend like that in a traumatic way was life altering, affected the way that I make decisions. Even Today and his 10 year death anniversary was, that was yesterday. And because suicide prevention and unfortunately veteran and service member suicide is such a big issue for us, I kept thinking in my mind what would be the worst case scenario? Worst case scenarios, I would lose a Marine because they took their own life. Because I didn't lean in, because I was scared to expose my own failures, right? Or not. Not failures, but weaknesses in my mind, right? That my weaknesses I'm too scared of, that I'm gonna do self preservation. And that doesn't open the door for somebody to go seek help. And then ultimately we're facing the ramifications of losing a Marine who took their own life. That was the worst case scenario for me. And so sometimes, sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing, right? But I always tell my kids this and I even tell, I told literally a woman at work this week. Doing the right thing is never the wrong thing, right? Doing the right thing is never the wrong thing. The ethical decision might be hard and it may impact you in some cases you may lose opportunities, you may lose money. In my case, I could have lost respect from some, for some people. But ultimately in the end I could go to sleep at night knowing that I opened the door and, and did my best to help prevent the loss of a, a life in the future.
- [39:40]
A
Leaving the military where you had this storied career, first female Blue angel, and now all of a sudden you find yourself in corporate America.
- [39:48]
B
Yes. Yes.
- [39:49]
A
Okay. Easy transition or hard transition?
- [39:53]
B
It was so hard. It was so hard. Yes. So I, I felt like I went out like Michael Jordan on top. Right. Like, that's where I felt like I, I went out and, and I ultimately made the decision because I had gotten to a point where I had two children, we wanted to have more children. And I felt like my work life balance was just not working. And if I was to deploy and not watch my kids grow up, that, you know, it just, it was ripping my heart out to think about that.
- [40:20]
A
Now, don't get me wrong, insert one thing. Your husband went to Annapolis with you. Your husband went. Was in the Navy and your husband was a munition sergeant in the military and deployed. Correct. So.
- [40:31]
B
So my. So my husband did not go to the nail academy. He's. He's going to watch this and laugh at you, Willie, because really, he went.
- [40:39]
A
I'm usually pretty good on my stats. I got.
- [40:40]
B
No, that's okay. That's okay. No, no, he. So he went to Texas A and M. He was in the core of cadets for a little bit and then dropped out because he wanted to party a little bit. But we both ended up in the same place as you are. Correct. So he, he is a C130 pilot. He's a Marine as well. Was. And we met on the Blue Angels and he was a Blue Angel. So the guy who solicited me to apply for the team, that was him. But we were not dating at the time. We were actually married to other people. No, there's no scandal there, I promise. But. But we were married to other people at the time. He solicited me to apply and then ultimately we ended up being on the team together. But.
- [41:15]
A
But yeah, I cut you off in the transition to the private sector. But I just wanted people know that your husband was also in the military.
- [41:21]
B
Yes, yes, he was. And so we made the decision to ultimately go to the civilian sector. I stayed a reservist. I'm still a reservist now. I'm about two years away from retirement, so trying to, trying to finish out a long and storied career there. Still in the reserves, but when I was transitioning. I'll give you a quick story. So I work in tech, as you guys know, and I showed up for my interview and I was dressed like Hillary Roden Clinton, like full on pants, suit, hair, in a bun. And I show up in tech, right? They're in jeans, in a hoodie. And so I was like, oh my gosh, I don't even know what to wear. Right? That was immediately what I thought the imposter syndrome was insane of like, I, I don't know what ACV is. I don't know what AOV is. I don't know what a KPI is. What the heck is a KPI, right? I didn't even know any of acronyms in it. I had a whole bunch of others from the Marine Corps. None of them carried over. So do I even deserve to be here? I remember my first day of work. I didn't know how to wear my hair. Do I wear it in a pony? Do I wear it in a bun? Do it right. And it was just, it was little things like that. Now what, what absolutely helped was leadership is leadership no matter if you're wearing a uniform or you're wearing a Hillary Rom Clin pantsuit, right? Like it. Leadership. Leadership is leadership. People are people. And I think, you know, there's, there's in my mind two major types of leadership. There is formal leadership where you are given a rank or you're given a title of vp. And with that comes decision making authority. With that comes tasking authority, delegation, all those things. And then there's influential leadership, cross functional leadership where people don't report to you and you need to get people on board. Let's all get in the boat and start paddling the same direction, but they don't formally report to you, right? And what the biggest surprise was in that transition wasn't that these two existed. It was the amount of the percentage in the Marine Corps. I obviously used authoritative leadership a whole shit ton more than I used influential leadership. And that was flipped on its head when I went to corporate, right? In the Marine Corps you can say do it because I said so. That does not go over well in corporate, right? Because I said so. And so having to, to adjust the balance of the type of leadership that I was doing was, was a learning point for me, right? Because you can, when you have authoritative leadership, you can compel someone to do it because they have to do it right? When you are influencing someone to do that, you are getting buy in, you are getting collaboration, you're getting working together, you're getting this agreement between two people of this is important to both of us, not for formal reasons, but because we both see the value in this and we're going to paddle together on it. And so I think that was the biggest transition for me. I do remember another situation, and luckily, I had an amazing female mentor at Salesforce, Rita De Filippo. She. She was one of my first bosses in the civilian world. She had never served, but she saw the value in hiring a service member. A lot of people think we're mad, bad, or sad, right? And she saw the value of what a background in the military could bring. And she helped me a lot of times translate situations that I just couldn't wrap my mind around. And I'll give you one example. So I was a chief of staff to the COO of public sector at. At a Salesforce, and the EA of our president kept going direct to the COO about stuff. And I would get furious about it because in my mind, it was Lance Corporal Schmuckatelli going directly to the general, right? When you had multiple layers of command in here, including myself, why are you going directly to him? Like, let me solve the problem before we escalate it up. And I would get furious about it, and I would talk to my boss, and she would be like, katie, this is not hierarchical. We're all people. We all just have different grades. And so I really had to reframe my mindset of, like, she was just trying to get done. She was going VFR direct to the right person. Right? It wasn't that she was trying to undercut anybody or this wasn't viewed as disrespectful in. In corporate, but in my Marine Corps mind, it was. And so luckily, I found this mentor that could help, you know, translate corporate speak to. To military speak for me. So there was so, again, a long answer to a short question was, it was rough, and I definitely had my struggles, but I luckily found some really great resources along the way, and I really try to pay that forward now.
- [46:04]
A
Any tricks from either your military career or now in the private of having four kids and juggling the career, Is there any hack you learned either in the military or in the private sector that allows you to keep all those balls up?
- [46:20]
B
No. So I don't keep all the balls, Right. I don't think any mom can keep all the balls. I think there's that analogy out there. It's not my analogy, and I'm. I. I apologize that I don't know who to attribute it to. But the glass balls, plastic balls theory, right, where you're juggling everything and you need to know which balls you can drop, and you want to drop a plastic ball, not a glass ball. So if my kids have chicken Nuggets every freaking night. That's a plastic ball. Like, sorry, I'll explain to their doctor that I promise they get nutrition elsewhere. But, but the glass ball of like, I didn't show up at the ballet recital and my daughter is going to remember that forever. That's something that I don't want to drop. Right. I loved Leah's example earlier where she's like, I brought my daughter to work. I am absolutely stealing that from you. It would be amazing, even though she's almost 6, for her to be sitting in this room and seeing a room like this with all of you women in it. Right. So that. I'm absolutely stealing that. So, so thank you. But to get back to your question, I don't do it well, hardly at all. I am still learning, I'm still trying to balance. I have an amazing partner in my husband, Dusty Cook. He. We don't have the traditional, you know, trad wife or whatever. I, I'm, I'm, I, I don't mean it like that, obviously. Even not trying to poo poo on anybody's lifestyle, that's, that's a lifestyle that someone can choose. We don't have that in my family, obviously. But he is extremely supportive, has been supportive of me every step of the way. We have a great village. I have a best friend named Katie, too. Her daughter is best friends with my daughter. And, and she leans in where, where I need help. My parents are flying in so that Dusty and I can go to Hawaii this week. Which is great. Yes. I don't think I've had a vacation with my husband since our fourth was born two years ago. So this is going to be great. But I would say that is, that is the, that is the answer to your question is I, I don't always do it well. And mom guilt is so real. Mom guilt is so real even being here. And I'm like, oh, I, they didn't go to swim practice this morning because we. Dusty was single parenting. What if they don't become the next Michael Phelps? Right. Like, so I, you were a swimmer
- [48:35]
A
in high school too?
- [48:36]
B
I, I swam through college. Yep. Yeah. I was a, I was a swimmer. So like, I'm really trying not to push them in the pool, but I really want to. I really want to. I want them to be great and I want them to love it the way that I love.
- [48:46]
A
I think people interpret you saying pushing them into the pool. I mean, both saying. You're saying push them as athletes.
- [48:52]
B
Oh, don't worry. They complain. I don't want to go in the morning. And I'm like, get in there. Right. So. So don't worry. That happens, too. Physical pushing and mental pushing. But.
- [49:01]
A
So you're talking about bringing your daughter into this room.
- [49:03]
B
Yes.
- [49:04]
A
And it makes me think about my son Charlie is here. And it makes me think about the learning by osmosis.
- [49:12]
B
Yes.
- [49:12]
A
That all of our kids get by just being around us, listening to conference calls, watching the way we behave in life, whether it's getting them to swim practice or whether it's hearing you on a conference call in the car, talking
- [49:25]
B
to the office, 100%.
- [49:26]
A
My question to you is, which Katie do you want them to hear? The Katie of the military or the Katie of the private sector?
- [49:35]
B
So I don't think there's two different Katies. I think one informs the other. I will say, like, I definitely curse a whole lot more when I'm with my marine corps unit than I do when I'm on a conference call with Salesforce. That being said, I do have a reputation for dropping the f bomb occasionally on Salesforce. And I'm like, sorry, right? But they generally forgive me for it because I produce good work. But. But, you know, I would say more importantly, more importantly, I want them to know about prioritization. That's what not. I. I want them to know that they are the most important thing to me. Right. Even though I'm on the phone in the car with them, driving to swimming with work, it's not. I'm just trying to use. I'm trying to be as efficient as possible in that moment. It's not that they're less important to me and that work is more important, and I'm not fully focused on them. I'm just trying to be efficient. So then when they are at swimming, I can watch them in the pool and cure them on and do all that stuff. And I'm not on a conference call. Right. I want them to know that. That I'm doing all of this. I did my military service. I'm doing these talks. I go. I work every day at Salesforce because I want to give them a better life. I will say, my children continuously check me in such a good way. You know, my daughter the other night was like, mom, you didn't read me a bedtime story. And I'm still, you know, typing away on my computer because I have something due. You didn't read me a bedtime story. Like, she will remember that. She will remember that I didn't go tuck her in because I needed to Send my forecasting report two minutes earlier than what, the reading of freaking Berenstein Bear book, Right? Take the time to read the damn Berenstein Bear book. Right? Because they will remember that your boss is not going to remember that you spent two extra minutes, you know, sending a report on that one.
- [51:32]
A
One quick thing on that, and then we're going to wrap up. Do you ever sit there and think about the importance of what you did in the military and then sit there and think about that report you're supposed to deliver at Salesforce and say, look, this isn't. This isn't saving freedom around the world. This isn't the greatest thing. Put that down and go. But when I was in the military,
- [51:51]
B
I had to do that. Yes. So I think, I think it's a superpower for me, though, because when everyone else in my organization is freaking out of we're going to miss by this amount, or our forecasting accuracy was off, literally. My response on multiple occasions has been, no one's dying. No one is dying. And I don't mean to be hyperbolus or anything like that, but I, I often give people that reality check of like, yes, I know this is the most important thing in your life right now, that your forecasting accuracy was not great, or our pipe coverage is not 3.5, it's 3.0, or whatever it is. No one is dying. Take a beat. You get to go home to your kids tonight. You get to make dinner, even if it's damn chicken nuggets for your kids tonight. Right? And, and let's just put that in perspective. And I would say as, as, even as difficult as it is, 90 of the decisions that we make, we can back out. It would be painful, but you could back it out. There are some decisions in combat that you cannot take back. Right? And so that's what I like to. When, when my team is getting crazy and we need to like, level set back to the calm. And, and don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't stress out about my forecast accuracy. I do. I want to be good at my job, and I want to teach people to be good at their job, too. But you've got to reframe the problem sometimes when people are freaking out of, nobody's dying. Let's level set this.
- [53:22]
A
So, Katie, first of all, thank you for being here. Second, thank you for your service. Thank you for your grandfather's service, your dad's service, your service.
- [53:31]
B
Yes.
- [53:32]
A
And I think all of us are looking forward to seeing your three boys and your daughter all graduating from the Naples academy in about 15 years. So, Katie Cook, thank you very much.
- [53:40]
B
Thank you, team. Thank you. Thank you. Will you. Great. Thank you.