‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Hype With Mallory Rubin. Plus, Doug Dulgarian of They Are Gutting a Body of Water.

Summary

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The Watch – ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Hype With Mallory Rubin. Plus, Doug Dulgarian of They Are Gutting a Body of Water

Date: October 17, 2025
Hosts: Chris Ryan (The Ringer), Guest: Mallory Rubin
Special Guest (Interview): Doug Dulgarian, They Are Gutting a Body of Water

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Episode Summary

This episode of The Watch is a two-part special. First, Chris Ryan sits down with Mallory Rubin for a vibrant conversation celebrating and dissecting the upcoming HBO series A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. Their discussion blends deep fandom, TV industry analysis, and playful banter, focusing on the potential, tone, and significance of this Game of Thrones prequel. In the second half, Chris interviews Doug Dulgarian of Philadelphia band They Are Gutting a Body of Water, diving into the band’s fresh new album “Lotto,” the creative process, and Philly’s formative influence.

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Part 1: ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Hype (with Mallory Rubin)

Main Theme

A celebration and exploration of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, the highly anticipated HBO adaptation of George R.R. Martin's “Dunk and Egg” novellas, what it brings to the Game of Thrones universe, and what sets it apart from previous installments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Banter and Fandom Roots

• Mallory gushes about her love for The Watch:
  • “You know, this is my favorite podcast. It is. And I don't mind saying it. We're not supposed to have favorites, but I do.” (02:55)
• Both hosts reminisce about their travel routines, TV habits, and the deep connection with Thrones fandom.
• Quick note: Mallory corrects Chris’ (playfully exaggerated) claim about the runtime of her podcast's trailer analysis:

  “As you primed me for mere moments ago. 2 hours and 46 minutes, not 3 hours. You're an editor. You should be precise.” (04:24)

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The Show’s Source Material and Adaptation Approach

• A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms adapts the “Dunk and Egg” tales—a novella trilogy (unfinished, promises of more exist).

• Mallory contextualizes the source:

  “This is the adaptation of the Dunk and Egg novellas, also packaged together and called A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. … There are three novellas that have been published, but promises of more to come.” (07:04)

• She notes the strength of “The Hedge Knight” (season one’s likely focus) as both intimate and majestic, centered on a single grand tournament.

• Chris expresses excitement at the show’s scope and authenticity:

  “It looks like we are returning to that huge tapestry that Game of Thrones at its early season best was able to build, where you're just like, look at that guy. Look at that guy. Like, what's he doing back there? So that was really neat.” (05:57)

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Creative Team, Structure, and Freshness

• Ira Parker (showrunner) is credited with deep love and understanding for the source material.

• Show format: Six half-hour episodes, directed by Owen Harris and Sarah Dena Smith.

• Chris argues the shorter, focused format is a genius move:

  “This is the perfect time and the perfect, like, way to see if you can still ... the execution of it is like … an antidote to, like, the heaviness of House of the Dragon.” (10:16)

• Mallory stresses the importance of different “entry points”:

  “You've gotta have different kinds of looks for people and different entry points. And I think like having a six episode, 30 minute ... I think like, having a six episode, 30 minute, hey, it's not that much of an investment. You don't know these people, but you will ... is really, really smart.” (12:29)

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Tone: Magic, Dragons, and Accessible Fantasy

• The series is billed as being “pre-magic” and “pre-dragons” in Westerosi history.
• Mallory clarifies:

  “I don't think I have not perceived this at all as like, there's no magic. So don't worry. This isn't like nerdy fantasy stuff. ... I think it's like we're trying to convey and establish where we are in the history of the realm ... this kind of Arthurian swords and shields.” (15:29)

• Chris is excited by this grounded approach:

  “I think for the same reason ... I'm hoping that there are no dragons in the show. I think the dragons are supposed to be gone by now, right?” (15:29)

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Characters: Dunk, Egg, and Westerosi Nobility

• Dunk (Ser Duncan the Tall) and Egg (the young Aegon Targaryen) are clarified for new viewers.
• Mallory drops lore teases and her favorite tidbits:

  “There's a blonde kid in it.”
  “The trailer debut of ... Finn Bennett as Aryan Targaryen—the bright prince, Aryan Bright Flame. One of my most anticipated pages.” (19:55–20:09)

• The show provides plenty of "on the ground" storytelling while showing glimpses of familiar noble families and sigils:

  “But the thing that you're describing and that journey and that arc and that spirit of possibility and discovery, … that's certainly the flavor here. But like, yeah, you will see the Targaryens in the story and people should expect that.” (21:08–21:21)

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Comparisons and Franchise Evolution

• Chris compares the fresh start to the early, “hungry for power” stretch of Game of Thrones, calling it his favorite part of the original series (18:54–19:19).
• Both hosts draw parallels to Star Wars and Andor (“Not about the Force, but about people on a journey”), linking the emotional impact of following fresh, striving characters rather than established icons (17:16–18:26).
• Mallory frames the series as an accessible “amuse-bouche” for deeper engagement with the Thrones universe.

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Anticipation for New Content

• Both are excited that two Thrones series (House of the Dragon and A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms) will air in the same year.
• Chris:

  “I'm way more excited about Dunk and Egg ... I mean, I love working with you guys, but I would be way more excited about doing [that show].” (21:44)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Dunk and Egg’s broad appeal:
  Mallory: “I think it's going to be a very welcoming space for anybody, no matter what your relationship is to the story or the characters… It is the easiest [onboarding].” (08:40–09:24)
• On the genre shift:
  “This is going to be ... Arthurian swords and shields. Like, I am on an adventure and seeking to discover something about who I am and what I believe in.” – Mallory Rubin (15:19)
• On franchise fatigue and variety:
  Chris: “If you want to keep this going as ... a viable vein to mine, you've gotta have different, different kinds of looks for people and different entry points.” (12:28)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Banter and Thrones nostalgia: 01:25–04:19
• Trailer runtime correction and adaptation context: 04:24–08:01
• Explaining Dunk & Egg, tone, adaptation: 07:04–09:54
• Format, creative strategy, and episode length: 09:54–12:44
• Magic, dragons, and Arthurian flavor: 15:05–18:26
• Character focus and lore discussion: 19:18–21:21

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Part 2: “Task” on HBO, Performance Analysis & TV’s Best of the Year

Main Theme

Mallory and Chris dive into HBO’s critically acclaimed drama “Task,” reflecting on standout performances, emotional resonance, and what makes the series one of TV’s best in 2025.

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Key Discussion Points

Standout Performances

• Both are blown away by Fabian Frankel’s performance, and the chemistry between Grasso and Lizzie (“wallop of watching what developed in real time”) (23:26–24:37).
• Mallory highlights Tom Pelfrey and Mark Ruffalo, praising the entire cast’s unexpected depth.
• The emotional resonance catches both off guard, touching on family, hope, grace, and the messy realities of life—well beyond mere crime story tropes.

Themes: Grace, Hope, and Depth

• Mallory:

  “The thing that I, I think that it's ultimately about is like, this is a show about grace. Yeah. And what grace are you able to find for other people and grant to other people, but like, really what are you able to grant to yourself?” (26:53)

• The show’s use of recurring motifs (birds as metaphor) and avoiding genre cliche—“No characters wasted. … Because we've spent just those extra couple of scenes with her, she goes from being someone who's in the background to someone who is now in the foreground.” (27:44–34:35)
• Chris and Mallory agree: it’s a “beautiful show,” a “special little diamond” that uses crime as a vehicle for profound human questions.

TV’s Best in 2025

• Both discuss personal favorites for TV of the year—Task, Andor, Shorzy, The Bear, Adolescence, The Pit, Severance, The Last of Us.
• Mallory:

  “That's the great magic trick of genre storytelling. Like, that's what genre storytelling at its best does. It simultaneously transports you to a world that is not yours ... and unlocks something about your ability to think about and understand your own life.” (38:04)

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Notable Quotes

• On “Task”’s message:

  “The message feels so established already. I think that the fact that the show is so heavy and really, like, rooted in despair and a feeling of, like, hopelessness. But then I. I find it to be so hopeful as well.” – Mallory Rubin (32:27)

• On storytelling chops:

  “There's no characters wasted.” – Chris Ryan (27:41)

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Timestamps

• Introduction to Task & HBO crime storytelling: 22:00–22:33
• Discussion of performances: 22:50–24:37
• Themes of grace, hope, forgiveness: 26:53–29:00
• TV’s best shows and emotional resonance: 36:02–38:04

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Part 3: Interview – Doug Dulgarian of They Are Gutting a Body of Water

Main Theme

Chris Ryan interviews Doug Dulgarian—frontman of Philadelphia’s They Are Gutting a Body of Water—about the band’s new album Lotto, Philly's influence, genre-blending, and the tension between musical experimentation and authenticity.

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Key Discussion Points

Philadelphia Identity

• Doug is not Philly-born but describes “falling in love” with the city and being inevitably shaped by it (“It’s kind of like an infectious thing that I think happens to you, whether you want it to or not”). (44:16)

Musical Influences and Monoculture

• Doug’s musical background: Raised on hip-hop, introduced to indie/experimental via his sibling, then gravitated to Boards of Canada, My Bloody Valentine, Fugazi.
• On the magic of the pre-digital monoculture vs. current internet “cacophony”:

  “There's something really magical about things that were just like a part of the zeitgeist.” (49:29)

Process and Sound of ‘Lotto’

• ‘Lotto’ represents the band playing “as a band” — more live, direct, and stripped back compared to previous experiments.

• Doug:

  “I think at the end of the day with this one, I was just like ... I just want to get back to the basics—what do we sound like?” (49:56)

• Aspires to create music that is “good” rather than boxed into “shoegaze” or “genre” labels.

Songwriting, Lyrics, and Sobriety

• Discusses the personal, direct lyricism on ‘Lotto,’ and how recovery from addiction shapes his songwriting.
• Doug is candid about the challenges and ambivalence of being so open lyrically:

  “It's weird when you first get clean, you tell everybody ... then years later, you get to this point where you're like, I don't need to tell my boss that I'm a junkie, you know what I mean? ... So it's weird to do all these interviews ... people are like, what's up, you junkie?” (61:13)

Track Highlights and Influences

• Discusses “Slow Cross Stick” (Fugazi homage), vocal layering inspiration from Pinback, and the Philly tribute that is “Basik.”
• On blending genres and moods:

  “Sometimes it happens where they just come together in a matter of hours, and you're just like, I'm done with it. This one's done. And it just feels right.” (62:44)

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Notable Quotes

• On artistic cycles:

  “Things move in cycles, dude ... it's kind of like a revisitation of what it felt like to make Gestures, Ben.” (53:01)

• On the shift to lyric honesty:

  “A lot of the other stuff that I'm talking about on the other records is the same stuff, but it's like hidden beneath layers of noise.” (61:55)

• On Philly’s sound:

  “That's a Philly song ... if I was like, yo, what does Philadelphia sound like? ... and I think that song is just kind of a celebration of that.” (64:59)

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Timestamps

• Philly influences & city love: 44:16–44:47
• On musical roots, influences: 45:46–47:33
• Process behind Lotto: 49:56–53:55
• Song breakdowns (standout tracks): 54:02–65:59
• On lyrics, recovery, and authenticity: 60:38–62:08

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Overall Episode Flow & Takeaways

• Deep-dive on TV’s latest fantasy offering with the kind of tangible, infectious hype only real fans bring.
• Smart analysis of how new fantasy and legacy franchises can thrive with fresh voices, accessible stories, and respect for fans (old and new).
• An emotionally rich summing up of why “Task” is essential TV in 2025.
• Engaged, generous interview with one of indie rock’s most compelling modern bands, blending Philly pride, recovery honesty, and music-geek joy.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This is a must-hear episode if you want to understand what’s exciting about A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, why “Task” is breaking TV drama ground, and how underground music continues to innovate through artists like They Are Gutting a Body of Water. The episode is passionate, intelligent, and funny—an ideal example of The Watch’s deft touch with pop culture and deep dives alike.

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. One of cinema's most terrifying mass killers is back just in time for Halloween. Black Phone 2 hits theaters October 17th. Ethan Hawke returns as the grabber and Mason Thames as Finney. And this time, vengeance isn't going to let death stand in its way. Spine chilling and heart pounding, Scott Derrickson's anticipated sequel asks, do you know what happens when you die? Universal Pictures Black Phone 2 only in theaters October 17th. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios. New film Springsteen Deliver Me From Nowhere Starring Golden Globe winner Jeremy Allen White and Academy Award nominee Jeremy Strong. Scott Cooper, director of the academy award winning movie Crazy Heart, brings you the story of the most pivotal chapter in the life of an icon. Don't miss the movie critics are raving is the real deal. An intelligent, deliberate paced journey into the soul of an artist. Springsteen Deliver Me from Nowhere Only in theaters October 24th. Get your tickets now. I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, a podcaster of the Seven Kingdoms. It's Mallory Rubin.

[B]

Thrill of my life to be here with you to do some Baltimore Delco accent comparisons.

[A]

Yes, Mal, thank you so much for doing this with me. Today we're going to talk a little bit about task. We're going to talk a little bit about a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, the new Game of Thrones universe show coming early next year on the HBO series January 18th. By the way, also on this episode today is my interview with Doug Dulgarian from the band they are gutting a Body of Water, which is one of my favorite bands. And they put out a record today tonight called Lotto, which I hope everybody listens to. I really love talking to Doug. It does get pretty deep into underground rock references. Oh, okay, great. He was awesome. And I hope people check out the record and check out the interview. I'll do a little bit of an intro for that later now. It's great to see you.

[B]

Great to see you, man.

[A]

Splendid with your Mediterranean tan. Must be nice.

[B]

Have a bit of appealing sunburn, you know? Yeah, sure.

[A]

I got to admit, when you were like, come in and see my tan yesterday, I expected a little bit more.

[B]

I did not say come in and see my tan. I said, will you be. I have to make sure someone sees my. Dan, I have known you for 12 years. 13.

[A]

12.

[B]

12 years. 13 years. And I don't think you've seen me with anything. We could even pretend was a tan once in that time. So I got.

[A]

And when you got got back from your wedding, right?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Honestly, no. Okay, maybe I don't think so. I've. That's all buried.

[A]

People are enjoying this. It's great to have you here.

[B]

Great to be here, man. You know, this is my favorite po podcast. It is. And I don't mind saying it. We're not supposed to have favorites, but I do. And it has always been the Watch, and it remains the Watch. That's me time when I get to listen to the Watch. I told you that. One of the things I do when I travel, as you know, is listen. I download a bunch of episodes of the Watch and I listen to them on the plane. And you guys might be saying, well, if the Watch is your favorite podcast, how could you have anything less to listen left to listen to? Well, I'm not always current on the shows you're covering that might come up today.

[A]

This is our cross to bear.

[B]

But then I bank them. They're all there for me. If a plane goes down and I'm on it, I want your voice to be the last I hear.

[A]

I wonder if that is like the, oh, there's a baby on this plane so that it won't go down, because why would God take an innocent baby from the world?

[B]

So you really have been reading about.

[A]

Spirituality or, like, if there's a famous person and you're just like, God, there's no way, you know, if Julia Roberts is on this plane, like, that's not going to be her end. So I'm safe on this flight.

[B]

If someone's listening to the Watch.

[A]

If somebody's listening to the Watch. If Greenwald is like, minute three of monologue, you know, like, there's no way. There's just no way this plane's going anywhere but to the airport. I wanted to have you on because, like, tell me who I. I just don't think you've had a chance to really comment on A Night of the Seven Kingdoms yet. For those who don't know, Mal and Joe did a three hour podcast about a two and a half minute long trailer.

[B]

Okay, let me do some real time fact checking on what appears to be a real time intervention.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

As. As you. As you primed me for mere moments ago. 2 hours and 46 minutes, not 3 hours. You're an editor. You should be precise.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There was some opening banter. You love some opening banter, so you should support that. Then we did a brief New York Comic Con news roundup.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So some of the runtime went to that. Then we did about two hours of spoiler free trailer talk. And then there was a book corner spoiler thing, full talk, which, you know, the runtime builds because we're being so thoughtful about the listeners and want to make sure that the spoilers are all quadrant off in a safe, marked space. So it's really for you that the pod is 2 hours and 46 minutes.

[A]

I watched this trailer and. And loved it, you know, but I.

[B]

Did you.

[A]

I don't know any. I didn't read these novellas as I had not read a single word that George Martin has ever written.

[B]

But you've just read a lot of wiki entries.

[A]

A lot of. A lot of Song of Ice and Fire, a pediatric. But I got to admit, I did feel. I did feel some, like, let's go. Some butterflies. Like, yeah. There's something about this show's at least this presentation, and this comes from Ira Parker and George R.R. martin. Pretty deeply involved in this one.

[B]

As George R.R. martin is happy to tell everybody, the assembled at New York Comic Con and anybody else that he's seen the six episodes. He loves them and that they're very faithful to the book. The subtweets at House of the Dragon are robust, I would say, but there's.

[A]

A lot to be fired up about, I think. First of all, I've been banging this drum a lot. There has been a sad turn after, you know, during COVID and afterwards with, in terms of TV production, where I think you can openly see whether it's restrictions or, like, it's actually just like the cost involved in having lots of people on set and having extras and having like, building out a world with, like, human faces. I think you can kind of see, like, just from the shots of like, the villages and stuff like that in this trailer that it looks like we are returning to kind of like that huge tapestry that Game of Thrones at its early season best was able to build, where you're just like, look at that guy. Look at that guy. Like, what's he doing back there? So that was really neat. And I want to talk to you about a couple of other things I've heard about this. So this show comes from Ira Parker, who give me a little bit about him. Does he.

[B]

So he's worked on House of the Dragon, obviously. I think one. One of the things that. So Joe and I talked about this quite a bit in our long trailer breakdown, but one of the things. Let me pan even further back for just a second. How long did you say we.

[A]

Guys, it's okay.

[C]

Go ahead.

[B]

So, a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. Just genuinely a quick little bit of context here. A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. This is the adaptation of the Duncan Tales of Duncan Egg novellas, also packaged together and called A Knight of the Seven Kings.

[A]

I'm on year 10 of pretending like I know who those guys are.

[B]

Yeah, you're about to, buddy. I know you're fucking about to. So currently, to date, there are. Stop me if you've heard this before. This is an unfinished text. It is an in progress story. There are three novellas that have been published, but promises of more to come.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's the only, like, the only bit of cold water I'll put on. This is like, I do have some questions about how far they will go on their own versus, like, what the odds are of George, who has said he'll return to these novellas after he finishes Winds of Winter, ripping off some more tales. But the novellas are sublime. Like, they.

[A]

Are they your favorite pieces of Martin writing?

[B]

No, but they are among my favorites. I would not say it's like absolutely number one, top of the list, but I love all three of them. The first one, the Hedge Knight, which season one is adapting. Season one of this television show is like a masterpiece. It is so full of charm and intimacy. I love hearing you say that. You felt like we were back in like the. The. The kind of sprawling scope and majesty of the realm. I think one of the great things about this novella and the season of TV is a tourney as a setting allows you to do both things at once. You're in one place.

[A]

Tournament.

[B]

Tournament. Yes, you're in one place. You are rooted with this new set of characters. But because it's attorney, there's a joust who's gonna challenge the champions. So many people can be there. You can see all those familiar sigils. Oh, is that. I'm a Game of Thrones fan. I'm watching this trailer. Is that the crowned stag of House Baratheon? It is. Okay, right? But also, like, who? Or Dunk and Egg, as you said. Now, some people will know the answer to that and some people won't. And I think it's gonna be a very welcoming space for anybody, no matter what your relationship is to the story or the characters. If you're like, I've never read any Song of Ice and Fire, could I start? And we got this mailbag Question on House of R. This is a three hour read. It is the easiest. So you say so so an audiobook time says so a Kindle read estimate.

[A]

Time says, yeah, I'm just being like with my shattered attention span as I've.

[B]

Been mainlining the spiritual texts, I have been, you're ready for this. Anyway, I think as always with Thrones, there are dark elements to this and heavy elements to this, but there is quite a bit about it that is heartening and affirming and I think it is a great time for show. And while it is maybe not the like zeitgeist animating every single person alive is definitely going to watch this on Sunday night. I. I am really hopeful that the people who do tune in will love it.

[A]

Okay, so six episodes, three of them directed by Owen Harris or four directed by Owen Harris.

[B]

They're half an hour.

[A]

And Sarah Dena Smith does the others and they're half an hour.

[B]

What do you Mr. TV make of that?

[A]

I think this is an ingenious idea by hbo, by Martin Industries, by like.

[B]

Okay, so your reaction was not why isn't this a movie? It was, this is smart.

[A]

No, my reaction was this is the perfect time and the perfect like, way to see if you can still. Obviously, like, people have been anticipating these. There's an adaptation of these novellas for a long time, but the execution of it is like such a without with nothing critical about House of the Dragon, such an, an antidote to like the heaviness of House of the Dragon. And honestly, eight years ago or whatever, I probably would have rolled my eyes when you told me that he hasn't finished Duncan Egg and that like, we don't really know where this show is gonna go. Truly, who cares? Hopefully we'll all be alive in four years.

[B]

And I should say we do know many things because there are things in the history that are established. It's a lot of like, I have tales to flesh out along the way.

[A]

But if I had a criticism of House of the Dragon, it's that I am weak and I read what happens.

[B]

You did.

[A]

And also, like, it's kind of playing out the way, you know, you. It feels like a fixed text when you're watching it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, I think that there's like, it's encumbered a little bit by its history, by the history of the realm and stuff. And like telling all these, like this massive story of, of a group of people who largely stand in rooms when they're not on top of dragons. And so it's become, I think it's like the idea of having something that is just almost like a little bit more alive and a little bit more. And then. Yes, like the time invested in this is going to be enough so that they can start to say like, okay, so like, what could we do with this franchise?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think that we got through the Marvel wars and I don't even know, like, are they going to keep making TV shows of. Of Marvel stuff? Like, I seriously can't tell. Like, we have Wonder man on the slate.

[B]

Wonder Man's coming. The Vision shows.

[A]

That's like the end of the Vision Agatha thing. And then maybe you could convince me that, you know, when X Men comes. Yeah, there's just gonna be too much stuff to not do a Wolverine show or not do a whatever season of.

[B]

X Men 97 coming. Obviously continuity, but still. Yeah.

[A]

But if you want to keep this going as like a, A viable vein to mine.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You've gotta have different, different kinds of looks for people and different entry points. And I think like having a six episode, 30 minute, hey, it's not that much of an investment. You don't know these people, but you will.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kind of thing is really, really smart.

[B]

I agree. And I think that there is something really pleasing and like that I anticipate a lot about a Thrones television show that people can calibrate their relationship to. Right. So if you decide that all you want to do is spend 30 minutes a week for six weeks for a month and a half checking it out, I think you'll probably have a pretty good time. But if you decide that you want to pick up the novellas or read the World of Ice and Fire to learn about this stretch of Targaryen rule or anything else, it is such a tantalizing amuse bouche to then like present itself as an on ramp into more I've been. Been interested in. So I didn't actually answer. Shockingly, I didn't actually answer your question. I just started talking. But your question about Ira Parker. One of the things that really struck me watching the. The stream of the. The Comic Con panel and just like reading some of his interview quotes so far and seeing how he's talking about the show is this. Two things. One, he clearly loves the story. Yeah, right. And like, I feel like it can be kind of corny to point that out or say that, but it is important. You mentioned the mcu. It's like how many times have all of us over the years talked about one of the Reasons it worked from. I mean, there are a million bug. Right. But among them was, like, Iron man, which would never have been the choice if not for rights control elsewhere. And like, the focus group responding to toys and stuff was that the people who were making that first Iron man movie, like, loved and understood the character. When you hear Ira Parker talk about these characters, you're like, this guy loves and understands the characters. And so whatever version the show takes from there, I believe based on what we've seen so far, I'm confident it will be rooted in, like, a core understanding of why that relationship between Dunk and Egg is a meaningful one to fans of the world. I wanted to ask you, though, the other Ira Parker thing that's stood out to me. I wanted to ask you what you make of this is that he is. So the marketing material is like tall tale that became legend. Right. Hundred years before Game of Thrones. They're really trying to root us. This is between the two television shows. And the other thing that they're really leaning into with the timeline and where we are on the timeline is no magic.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I was curious what you made of that because, like, I of course, had a little bit of a. Well, actually, well, wait. Well, what does this mean about X, Y and Z? That I won't invoke here and spoil for people. Sure. But I do see the wisdom of. And I. I love magic and I love fantasy stories.

[A]

But like a Star wars show without the force, it's like, I think that there is a huge contingent of people who are like, I think. I think for the same reason.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I. I don't know. But I. I'm hoping that there are no dragons in the show. I think the dragons are supposed to be gone by now. Right.

[B]

Correct. So then that's the thing is, like, I. I don't think I have not perceived this at all as like, there's no magic. So don't worry. This isn't like nerdy fantasy stuff, which I don't think is the. The vibe of the comments. And I would not want that to. Of the comments. I think it's like we're trying to convey and establish where we are in the history of the realm. And this is going to be the essence as a result. This kind of like Arthurian swords and shields. Like, I am on an adventure and seeking to discover something about who I am and what I believe in. Right. So I was wondering if you found that or personally compelling, but also thought that that would be like. And I quite enjoy House of The dragon. But in the era of, like, we're waiting three years between seasons because we have so many sie gi dragons to, like, make sure we can get up to snuff before we're ready to put another season out in front of you. If this was gonna feel like a really, like, welcoming warm bath to people, like, maybe we get one of these every, like, 12 to 18 months.

[A]

That would be amazing. If this was the slow horses of the Game of Thrones universe, like Jackson.

[B]

Lamb in A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, immediately, I need his commentary on the jousts. He would not enter the list, but I think he would sit there and whatever the Ashford Meadow version of, like, I've. I'm slurping on some noodles is. While he's judging all of the champions and challengers. Sign me up.

[A]

I think that there's probably an e. Like, a. A one way to look at this would be like, you know, and this is the position Andy and I often take on Star wars stuff, which is that, like, andor kind of scratched the itch that we had had for 30, 40 years and that we don't need anything else, and we never. It's not about the Force, and it's not to some extent, but I think when I think about what and. Or did so well, and what I'm excited about, for instance, for this show and what was really great about Game of Thrones when it started is, like, yeah, it had kings and. And. And princesses and stuff like that and dragons, but it also had people from nowhere becoming something, and there was like, an arc to it. And sometimes when I think shows or movies or whatever, when you're relying on now she's already the queen, or she already has dragons, or she. Like this. We come in, and this person already has the Force and is a Jedi Master. There's just, like, a little bit less of a. Of a. Of a. Of a Runway to go on with the characters. It doesn't feel earned for you as a viewer because this person is already endowed with everything. It's like, I like Luke Skywalker as a bratty teenager looking up at two runners and, like, being like, I want to get out of here.

[B]

Binary sunsets is like. You could still argue to this day. It's the single best moment in, you know, in the history of, like, cinema. And the score kicks in, and he's looking and he's longing. I agree. I think so.

[A]

So sending people on a journey, rather than having them already be at the seat of power is kind of interesting to me.

[B]

So. Okay. I have two thoughts in response to that One. I think that if that is something you are looking forward to and craving, there's a chance this is your favorite bit of Thrones yet. I think that's a. That's probable. That's in play. Again, I haven't seen the show so I don't know if it's good. But like in terms of different story.

[A]

Is probably that period from spoilers for Game of Thrones.

[B]

I think it's fine from.

[A]

It's basically post Ned dying and it's like the damn.

[B]

That was a big spoiler.

[A]

The chaos that kind of ensues from there and the rise up of rise and fall of Rob of Jon of Littlefinger to some extent. Joffrey coming in and just like all of the like people who are outside of power rushing in to take it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That was my favorite period of Game of Thrones. So I'm excited about. About some just random two dudes at a tournament. I'm sure they're not that random.

[B]

This is my second point which is I. My only bit of. Because there's also been a lot of like we're. We're rooted in Dunk's perspective. We're on the ground and Dunk is.

[A]

The kid or the big guy.

[B]

Egg is the kid.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Dunk is Ser Duncan the tall.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

You know there's been a lot of like we're rooted on the. On the ground with the people of the realm. The exact thing that you're describing. And like the royals are present. You know you can see in the trailer. You can see the Targaryen banners.

[A]

There's a blonde kid in it.

[B]

I was about to say the trailer debut of you know, Night country fans rise. Seeing Finn Bennett. Aryan Bright Flame. Aryan Targaryen.

[A]

Okay. His name is Aryan.

[B]

His name is Aryan Targaryen. The bright prince. Aryan Bright Flame. One of my most anticipated pages. He's the Secretary of State in the.

[A]

United States of America.

[B]

He's a piece of work. So I'm really looking forward to that character. One of my other favorite characters from the story. Who's we don't we. You can glimpse him in the trailer. He's not prominently featured in the trailer but he is mentioned in that funny like. Are you Baelor Targaryen? No. Then get the fuck out of the way moment. Baelor Targaryen. They're the royals are the royal. The ruling family is here. Lionel Baratheon. The laughing storm is here. Like lords and ladies and people of power are in the story. And I don't want to like, overcorrect in. In framing it as like, we're only hanging out with like, people who are just mainlining bowls of brown and flea bottom. That's like, not the case. But the thing that you're describing and that journey and that arc and that spirit of like, possibility and discovery. I mean, I, you know, I would, I would, I would argue and I know you would agree that like, that can very present in the await Am I the Chosen One story as well. But it is different. It's a different flavor and that is certainly the flavor here. But like, yeah, you will see the Targaryens in the story and people should expect that.

[A]

It's Thursday now. We had the bridge from Game of thrones and George R.R. martin to the next topic is Fabian Frankel. You know, obviously Cole with us always in House of Dragon. They just finished shooting season three, I think.

[B]

I mean, we're going to get two Throne shows next year.

[A]

When's the last time that's happened? Has that ever happened? No.

[B]

Are you excited to do Talk the Thrones two times in one year? You ready?

[A]

I'm way more excited about Duncan Egg. I mean, I love working with you guys, but I would be way more excited about doing.

[B]

You could have just said yes, I can't wait to spend time with you. Yes.

[A]

I can't wait to spend time with you. Yes.

[B]

But that wasn't what you said, was it?

[A]

You are current on Task.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As we head into the finale, I am.

[B]

I.

[A]

Have you gotten to talk about it? Like, what, do you. Do you like it? Do you love it?

[B]

I think it's fucking amazing. It's one of my, like, probably three favorite shows of the year. I've loved listening, loved listening to you and Andy talk about it and I've loved watching the show. I'm pretty despondent that it's about to end. Yeah, I am current through. Through six. I. I got back from my travels and I was a couple episodes behind and it was the first thing on my to do list. I mean, I had some work to catch up on Task, but on my television catching up on Task, I was.

[A]

Like, this is the most important six. When you got back.

[B]

Yes. And boy, roller coaster promotion.

[A]

So spoilers up until and through six. Although if you're listening to the Watch, you're probably like on task island with us. Yeah, I don't. I don't even know where to start. Let's talk about Fabian because I. Did you think he had this in Him.

[B]

Yeah. Because I think, unlike Andy, I think he's great on House of the Dragon. You know, obviously, we're big. We're big. Kristen Cole. It's a specific part. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Now, have I been waiting for Grasso to take out a sword and start polishing it with a lemon? I have, yeah. You know, have I found myself in moments saying, will we get a spoiler for House of the Dragon? You issued a spoiler for Thrones. I'll issue a more recent spoiler for House of the Dragon. You know, are we gonna get any, like, diving into the royal muff a la Criston and Alicent. Not so, you know, more restraint.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Celibate from Grasso. I think that the performance has been great. I think the character is a highlight of the show. Grasso and Lizzie. Same for me. As for you, just my. I mean, obviously, like, it feels a little weird to say anything other than like, the Robbie Tom scenes are actually the number one highlight of the show because. Of course. Yeah. But like, something about that Lizzie Grasso, because that was what we were anticipating, was Tom and Robbie. Right. Was Ruffalo and Pelfrey. And so the absolute out of nowhere wallop of watching what developed in real time between Grasso and Lizzie is like the delight of the show to me. And Maeve too. Like, the things that I wasn't prepared for, the way I was, like, you know, I thought Pelfrey on Ozark, that that was one of the performances of like the decade. So I was thrilled to have him back on our lives in the show. And I love Ruffalo. He's like an all time fave of mine, so. And I loved Mare of Eastown, so I was really looking forward to the show and I have not been disappointed with any of the things that I was anticipating, but the stuff that I had no real reason to like, be looking forward to as much has just blown me away. It's been sensational. And like, I know I said this, I really have loved listening to you guys talk about it. Like, I think your conversations have been beautif. And the show is beautiful.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, it's hard to, like, I mean, we laugh about it and like, we joke about it, but it's definitely moved me pretty deep. So it's like, it's. It's sort of like Andy and I have to like, kind of go into this sort of tender zone when we talk about it. But yeah, I think that it was just really surprising for me. I think I really did go into it. And I should have known better because Mare's not like this. Mare is like, you know, Winslet and Jean smart sitting around and talking to the priest and like the kids having the band and like, there's so much life in Mayor, it's. It's not surprising that this is the same way. But like, I just kind of thought like, oh, yeah, it's gonna be way more about like, moving drugs in Philly and like cops chasing who's hitting these stash houses. The mystery of this show is over, like, yeah. Very fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, I think that when they take Sam home in the first episode and it becomes obvious that it's like Sam is like this vessel of hope for every person who gets their hands on him throughout this series. So it's been. That's not something I thought I was gonna get. Like, I didn't think about, like, oh my God, this is about, like building or rebuilding family and all this other stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I think, like, I agree. I think that the fact that Robbie died in the penultimate episode is if you just pan back and look at like, okay, what might the flow of the season be? Not surprising. But in terms of the reality that it, it presents to us of like, the show is going to conclude by being, on the one hand, plot wise about something different than we thought the show was going to be, like, driving toward. But in terms of its theme and its core focus, that, that somehow heightened and further unlocked the treatise that, that the show is actually exploring, which, like, as you guys have beautifully discussed, you know, this is a show about obviously, like loss and, and grief and, and remorse and longing. But the thing that I, I think that it's ultimately about is like, this is a show about grace. Yeah. And what grace are you able to find for other people and grant to other people, but like, really what are you able to grant to yourself?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And that is like an incredible thing to present, I think quite subtly and in a very nuanced fashion, but still inside of like a pretty propulsive, action oriented tale and like the majesty and splendor of the vistas and the locations and the fact that you can be in somebody's like, beat up living room or at this astonishing quarry or a, a booth at a diner, or in somebody's car with a duffel bag on their lap or a person's body on their lap and like, all of them are equally compelling to watch is incredible. And like, the Robbie Shelley moment is. And just that sequence is really, to me emblematic of like, the genius of the show.

[A]

Because it's just like, there's no characters wasted.

[B]

Yeah, no characters wasted.

[A]

Shelly could just be, like, this background person who's like, ray, don't do it. You know, like. And instead, good accent. Thanks. And then instead, it's, like, plays a.

[B]

Crucial pivotal role and.

[A]

And. And like. But it's almost. It's. It screws around a little bit with the cliche of, like, I'm a good person. And Robbie's like, oh, my God, I'm a good person. Like, what are you talking about?

[B]

And that's the thing, right? It's like, okay, on the one hand, it would not be a good faith argument to say, what does it really matter in terms of the plot, obviously, that's, like, hugely consequential in terms of the plot and everything that's really unfolding with Freddy and with the dark hearts and with Robbie and with his plan and the sacrifice and the money that'll go to Maeve.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, all of that is carefully plotted and structured and paced and dispersed to us and the characters alike. But in terms of the good person thing, why would Robbie, who's like, who the fuck are you? And, like, why would I listen to you? And why would I believe you for a second? Why are these. The choices is also a show about. Show about grace and forgiveness and loss, but choice as well. And, like, so what ultimately leads Robbie to, like, opt into this? Is it crazy Robbie always trying to figure out a way to make his life better and then realizes he's run out of opportunity to do that, so it has to make someone else's life better? Or is it.

[A]

In retrospect, it's like, Robbie knows he's dead from the second the.

[B]

Also, though, I like to think about, like, he's looking at Shelley and saying, okay, and this is what happens with. In a much more centered and, like, in the spotlight way at the heart of the show with Tom and Robbie, but also in a really quiet way in the corner happens with Robbie and Shelley is like. Like, the only common ground that these characters have with each other is, I really wish I had a chance to, like, do something better for my family than I did before.

[A]

I think he believes Shelly does, and he knows he doesn't, but he's like, the only person who can help me is somebody as desperate as I am. Because Maeve is like, what the fuck are you talking about? When he's like, let's go to Canada. You know, like. And they. Honestly, like, they probably could have gone to Canada just with the Money that they had. Like, they may get chased and it may be dangerous and all that. But, like, his thing about, like, I need this money to set us up for whatever. Like this island where there's no trash.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is. Is like a dream. It's a pipe dream. And it's like what he needs is to basically break through to the other side where both like in these sort of like on the other side of life idea of it. But also he needs to just end this chase. He needs to stop being chased by the dark arts. Stop chasing the dark arts. He needs to get rid of these drugs. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's. It's a really beautiful show and it's a really, like, special little diamond when it comes to like using the crime stuff to like, talk about much different things.

[B]

Yeah. I thought that like Tom going to Grosso's house. Incredible scene, obviously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The confession conversation which you and Andy talked about was really amazing. I felt like, again, that was a scene that really showed how the little details in the show elevated into like God's hairstyle.

[A]

Asking about this for 5 hours now.

[B]

Build up and build up the way that he thinks about sin and guilt and doubt and forgiveness. But even just something like he's basically in his pajamas. Right. So, okay, if he and Lizzie fuck, he takes off his shirt and we see the tattoo like to. To build to the moment where you're finally seeing that like the extent of the. What was his relationship to his faith.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The way that that is on his body and presented to us in that moment versus an earlier it. So purposeful. Right. I'm coming for you, Grasso. Then come like chills. Incredible. And I like thinking about how, you know, obviously Ethan and his trial, everything with Grasso, like all of these things that maybe we thought we had no reason to think would be the final episode of the show are now centered. But it's like, it's in some ways the show's version of you put the cold water on your shoulder so that your heart doesn't explode when you find out what you're really heading into, you know, so we have been acclimating without even realizing we were this entire time time for all of these characters, all of these broken people to confront each other. Like, I'm really obviously quite worried about Maeve and you know, you can see. And I've obviously not seen the finale like you can see in the. Just the, you know, the 42nd preview for the finale that they put at the end of episode six. Like Jason and Barry are gonna find her. That's, like, really featured in the coming. In the finale teaser. So obviously that's worrying. I hope Maeve makes it out. If she does, like, into what kind of life, if she doesn't, I find my mind going to, like, does Tom take Harper and Wyatt too?

[A]

Right. Is this Family Robinson?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And in some ways, it's like, the plot particulars and weirdly, the fates of the characters are, like, obviously they are important and they matter to me because I'm really invested in these people's lives. But it's like the message feels so established already. I think that the fact that the show is so heavy and really, like, rooted in despair and a feeling of, like, hopelessness. But then I. I find it to be so hopeful as well. Like, that little glimmer of, you know, that's why I loved the. The Tom Grasso conversation. Like, if you just. If, you know, if you want forgiveness, like, all you have to do is ask. And the fact that that can feel impossible. Like when he was saying to Robbie in episode five, you don't have to be the vagrant bird. Like, it's not necessarily too late for you to come home and do people to realize that that's true. Is it true? You know, and, like, what is more powerful being the person on the receiving end of that or the person who can maybe grant that to somebody else?

[A]

Right. You know, and even that Robbie Tom conversation, I just keep thinking about, like, what you were saying about Shelly and how nine out of ten shows have Shelly open the door, let them go talk to Rey, and that's pretty much it. This is just the woman who lives in this guy's house. She gets an extra bit when Ry is like, we're doing. We're gonna rob these guys. You know, she's interrogated. You have that incredible Aaliyah monologue with her, then she's kind of gone for a while, and then pops out at the most crucial moment of Robbie's life, pretty much when he's deciding what he's gonna do. But because we've spent just those extra couple of scenes with her, she goes from being someone who's in the background to someone who is now in the foreground. And then even if that's just all we get with her, you know what I mean? Like, obviously, she, at the end of five, gives, or at the end of six, gives Maeve the money, and you're just like, this is incredible. But also, like, Maeve is now in a tremendous amount of even more dangerous.

[B]

Even, like, One thing I found myself thinking about a lot was, like, Robbie had absolutely no reason to believe that she would save the money.

[A]

He does. And, you know, like.

[B]

Yeah. And.

[A]

But he's like, this is my best shot.

[B]

And the thing that he's banking on, the actual. There's the literal currency of, like, moving the fentanyl and what was in Grasso's file. Like, the actual tangible thing you can hold in your hand or that you can point somebody to. But, like, the only actual shared courtesy between those people is, like, the trust that, you know what it's like to be let down. Yeah, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that's the thing they're banking on at the end of the day, which is, like, a really remarkable thing to study over seven hours of tv.

[A]

Yes. And then another example of that is, like, there's a lot of shots of birds in the show, and you're just kind of.

[B]

Are you a big bird guy? I mean, you're at Go Birds thinking about it. Yeah.

[A]

You know, I'm not. But it's an easy thing to just be like, all right, we're gonna cut to some idyllic nature shots to, like, fill this out. You know, Dare I say, sometimes I find Mike White over relies on that, you know, And I know that there's symbolism in his cutaways and everything, but I do think that you get all that stuff. You get him watching these. These birds and kind of drunkenly like, mentioning that this one thing has shown up in his backyard.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that hits harder when they have this conversation in the car.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he's like, you're the vagrant. You know, you're like, oh, that's why we've been looking at these things for such a long time. I'm glad you like it.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

So you said it's easily among. What were the other top shows of the year for you?

[B]

I mean. All right, let me issue the caveat that my brain is just shattered right now. Jet lag. Also the general just decline and decay of my faculties and acuity. I'm sure I'm remembering a few things that are very important to me this year that I loved. I think my. I think my favorite. The shows that I think are the best this year so far. Andor Task. Adolescence, Pit, Pit, Severance.

[A]

There's one you're forgetting.

[B]

Maybe that's my top five. What am I forgetting?

[A]

Sh.

[B]

Well, let me tell you something. I'm not forgetting. Sh. But I was forgotten by you and Manzoukas when Shorzy rolled around forgotten.

[A]

I mean, I definitely told you to watch sh.

[B]

Yes. And then the three of us were texting about how we would pod together when the new season came out. And Kya was like, they're potting about Sharsy. And then I came over and I stood there and waited to watch you come out of the studio.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm sorry, you're not. You're a very busy woman. You know, I don't want to. I don't want to encumber you with any more pie.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Yeah, SH would be up there. That was a great one. What else came out this year? I was higher on the season of Last of Us than many. Yeah. I think it's been enjoyed that. What else?

[A]

Consistently entertaining TV year that has four or five shows that are kind of a cutout above.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And this is one of them is coming on strong. But I still think on a personal note, just to see the project fulfilled andor is kind of like separate, which is weird because one of the things that I think is united. My favorite shows this year has been this feels like real life. Like, whether it's the Pit or adolescence. In some ways, Task andor is about space politics, but obviously is also about revolution and has become, you know, kind of a touchstone cultural moment at this particular time in American and Western politics.

[B]

I mean, obviously, we've talked about this many times over the years in covering Thrones together and many other things, but, you know, that's ultimately like, that's the great magic trick of genre storytelling. Like, that's what genre storytelling at its best does. It simultaneously transports you to a world that is not yours and is ultimately not recognizable and unlocks something about your ability to think about and understand your own life. And. Andor is just the supreme and just.

[A]

Even as a season of tv, Andor is prob. Like the first time since Bear season two, maybe, that I can remember where, like, you'll be. You'll be, like, having a conversation about the best episode of a season of television and you realize that you're talking about different episodes because they're both. There's so many good ones. Yeah. Thanks for coming on today.

[B]

Thanks for having me, man. What a treat.

[A]

Enjoy the task finale.

[B]

I'm really looking forward to it. I think I'm going to probably be pretty shaken. That's my. That's my expectation. I'm looking forward to it. I can't wait. You and Andy mentioned the possibility when you were covering episode six that this was not 100%, definitively a limited series.

[A]

There's just a lot of chatter which shattered me.

[B]

I did. I did not know that that was like out in the ether as a possibility.

[A]

I think there's just been a lot of chatter about, about the, the Inglesby verse and some chirping birds that there, that there is interest in doing more, more of this show particular in particular.

[B]

I would be thrilled.

[A]

I think it's, I think it's a no brainer. I hope they don't like let it like basically what happened with Mayor, which is like they made it. I think they made it around or right after during COVID and kind of like then Kate Winslet went off and did like Kate Winslet things and like she was like I would love to play this character again but obviously her dance card gets really full up. Like sure. I hope people love Task and that they. Then they're like we need to do let's do Task and let's do it like next year. You know.

[B]

That would be incredible.

[A]

I hope so. Thank you so much, Mallory.

[B]

Thank you, Christopher.

[A]

Let's get into my interview with Doug Deligarian from they are begutting a body of water.

[D]

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[E]

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[A]

All right, we're about to get into my interview with Doug from there. Gutting a body of Water. This is one the of my favorite current bands. Their new album Lotto, which comes out midnight Friday or late tonight Thursday to. You'll be able to listen to it almost immediately after you hear this pot. This is easily my favorite record of the year, so I really wanted Doug to come on. Annie and I have bands on from time to time. They tend to be relatively obscure, I guess, compared to maybe some of the TV people that we have on. But if you're listening to this and you like they are gunning a body of Water, I think it's a really fun interview because we go through a bunch of the songs on Lotto and talk about, like, their creation and. And what Doug was kind of thinking when he was making them. If you don't know this band, I would say, do you like Sonic Youth? Do you like Nirvana? Do you like My Bloody Valentine? I think you'd like them. They are just an amazing underground rock band. They have elements of shoegaze, elements of electronic music, elements of just, you know, really, really good indie rock. I guess. I. It's hard to know what to call them because they are really, really unique. This is a Philadelphia band, so in, you know, the tradition of this podcast, we celebrate things from Philadelphia. They sound otherworldly to me, but they also sound like they can only really come from Philadelphia. I talked to Doug about that. I talked to Doug about these songs. Talked a little bit of birds go, Birds go there Gutting a body of water Go, go check out Lotto. Doug, thank you so much for joining me, man. You know, I've loved this band for a minute. Lotto, the new record from they are Gunning a Bodywater is honestly like pretty far and away the best thing I've heard this year. So congratulations on the record. Thanks for joining me.

[C]

Dude.

[A]

Ye. You're calling from Philly right now?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, West Philly.

[A]

Awesome.

[C]

I'm in my warehouse.

[A]

I was wanted to talk to you a little bit because, you know, me and Andy, we've been my My podcast partner have been talking about this show Task that's been on for a minute. It's about. It's a crime show set in Philly on hbo, but we've had Philly on the Brain. I've been back a bunch recently. When you think about it, like, what is distinctively Philadelphia about the sound of. Of this record specifically, but the band in general.

[C]

Listen, full transparency. I'm not from here. I've been here a long time and I love it. And. And I. I would die for this city. I love this. I love this place. But the other thing is just like, it's kind of like an infectious thing that I think happens to you whether or not you want to. You want it to. You know what I mean? So I got here in whatever like 2015 or 16 or something like that. And even like the stuff that I'm talking about on the record is very. Just like pertains to my day to day life.

[A]

I wanted to ask you. This is sort of like a. A to. For me to articulate, because I don't know how you would want to answer it, but one of the things that's always drawn me to the band is I feel like for better and probably for worse for you, sometimes, like, you're just like the listener gets to ride shotgun in your brain. Like now for me, it's always been like this musical journey with you where I'm like, how is this guy putting together these sounds together? Like the. Whether it's a shoegaze sound or a jungle breakbeat or even just like the little samples you're triggering and all this stuff. And I feel like I can feel this journey or passion you've had for music for your whole life, like coming out in these records. And it really, really, really speaks to me because I feel like I share a lot of the similar tastes with you. But can you talk to me a little bit about like, you as a music listener and like what you've kind of like found, when you found it and how it's kind of been assimilated into now. Like the stuff that you're making.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. When I was a kid, kid, I didn't know anything about indie rock. It just wasn't something that I listened to. I just primarily listened to hip hop, like Lil Wayne and, you know, Jadakiss.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

The lox, like all that stuff that was like, primarily what I listened to. My sibling went to school at SVA in New York City, and they were. They were just so tapped into, like, cool that I You know, know, it just wasn't a part of, you know, I didn't, I didn't know anything about it. And so then it just became like, you know, like Radiator Hospital. Yeah, like that. And I was just like, wow, this is like, super cool. But then also, you know, when I was like 22, 23, I got into like, Boards of Canada. And I think Geo Gotti, like, specifically really changed the way I thought about a lot of things because, like, that whole record, Gio Gotti is like backwards. I mean, every song is like, literally, like. I think they, like, record things forwards and just like reverse it and put it out. And I always thought, like, it felt so specific and it felt, I remember the first time I listened to it, I was like, I hate the way I feel. Then it just becomes, like, comfortable. And the same thing could be said for like, My Bloody Valentine or whatever. Whatever. I think the other thing is just like, we're starving for like, a monoculture, but I think the monoculture kind of that exists is like a cacophony of everything all at once. And I think I've always really just been a fan of so many different things and, you know, my whole thing is just like, if I, if you, if you like something, why don't you just, like, take a swing at it? Just see how it feels.

[A]

Do you, do you actually feel like you're starving for a monoculture? Like, do you wish that there was like, like a single publication telling you what bands to listen to and stuff like that and like, kind of have that maybe not that kind of like.

[C]

Gatekeeping, but not a, not a publication. But I really do wish, you know, I don't know, I, I, I, I feel like even up until, you know, the, the mid-2000s or whatever, I remember, like, the Sopranos was such a big deal. Maybe that's, maybe that's a cool thing about the Internet too, is that everybody is just like, into their own thing, you know? Like, I don't know, but, but I really, I love the feeling of just like everybody knowing what this thing is. You know what I mean?

[A]

I think it, the cool thing about the Internet is, for instance, like, somebody could hear this interview. I know I had this experience with your band where you can just like, lose yourself in it and you can watch these clips of you guys playing live in a circle in, in a sonic drive in or whatever. You can really like, immerse yourself in something so f. Past. But I think for you and me, probably who still remember a pre digital life, like There was some kind of romance to the way you're describing getting into Radiator Hospital and listening to Jadakiss tapes and stuff like that. And, like, finding it in a little bit of a slower way. It feels like I almost burned through my obsessions, like, super fast now.

[C]

That's. Yes, exactly. I think that is the ultimate conclusion to, like, a lack of monoculture is that you're super thrilled about something, but it doesn't have the staying power that it once did. You know what I mean? Like, I. And I think that. That. I don't know if it's scary. It's just. I don't know. There's something really magical about things that were just like a part of the zeitgeist. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

Let's talk a little bit about Lotto, because it feels very much like you guys playing in a room, and it feels like a record. I cannot wait to see you guys play live because it just feels like it's been. It's been dialed up to. To be. To be heard in that environment. Was that like a. A big thing for you where you were like, I want to. I want to feel like this feels like a band right now.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. I think we were getting to a point where we were so niche and just so, like, we were becoming a meme. You know what I mean? It was getting weird and, like, that's cool. I'm all I. You know, you can. You can listen to my music and. And determine that, like, I'm super into experimentation and I'm super into things, exploring and figuring out, you know, new ways to do things or whatever. But I think at the end of the day with this one, I was just like, dude, I just want to. To get back to the basics, like, what do we sound like? And also, like, you know, by the time we were making. We made gestures, Ben, and it was just me and Ben and our friend Evan playing bass. It was just a three piece. By the time I made Destiny xl, it was like a cycling cast of people and they were changing constantly. By the time we got to Lucky Styles, it was the solid four piece that we have now. So this. This record as a follow. And then we did expansion pack too, which was really just like super far out. I wanted to just, like, go as many places as I wanted to with that one. So for this one, it was like, let's just bring it back to reality and just see what that feels like. And honestly, it's cool. It's Exciting. I got real into nirvanas in utero. And just, like, reading about it and reading about, like, what that felt like. I love creating eating things that feel almost artificial, like. Like the. Like the blue raspberry flavor of candy or something like that. You know what I mean? Because, like, it's like. It really is the best flavor. It's phenomenal. It's, like, strange, and, you know, it doesn't exist in nature. But then there's also something about, like, just eating, you know, a strawberry.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Where you're like, this is nice, too.

[A]

You know, it tastes like it looks, you know. Yes, exactly.

[C]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's no, like. It's not like a mystery Airheads flavor where you're like, I have no idea what the. This thing is, you know? So, yeah, I don't know. It was cool to get back to that. And also just a lot of the things that I was talking about on the record or just where I was in my life, and I think where we all were in our lives, you know, we just wanted to make a record that we could recreate live. Sometimes that's, like. That's hard. You know, you do all. It's cool to explore, man. It's cool to, like, do all these other different things and, you know, see where things can go. But, like, we tried playing Kmart in Break live probably, like, five times, and it's cool. It just doesn't hit the same way. And we just wanted to be like, yo. But like, Delta P does. Or like, behind the Waterfall does. But it's a totally different thing when we play it live. And both of those are off Lucky stock styles. But, like, with the Lotto songs, it's just like, we could just play any of them.

[A]

Yeah. I think my favorite song by you guys is. Is still fake 20 and. And that feels like it could be on Lotto, you know, it feels like.

[C]

Yeah, it's. It. Things move in cycles, dude. I think this is kind of like a revisitation of what it felt like to make gestures, Ben, you know, and I think it's kind of. It just kind of always moves in cycles like that, and, you know. Yeah. Gestures been felt similarly where it was like, it. We just kind of live tracked it, and it was. I don't know if we live tracked it, but it. But it feels so live. But, yeah, I don't know. It's really. It's been refreshing to get into just, like, just being a. You know, like. You know what I mean? Like, at the end of the day, it's like all this other stuff, all this jungle stuff, all this like. And I love all that stuff. Don't you know what I mean? Like, no shade at all. All. But it was definitely just so much cooler to just be like, we're just going to be a band for this.

[A]

That's cool.

[C]

And see what that. Yeah, it was enjoyable to. To create too because it was just. It was so much easier.

[A]

So, like, I want to ask you about a couple of the songs. So I'm going to start in the middle of the record. You know, we're not going to go track by track or anything like that. But I just had, I want. I just had to like ask you about a couple of things. When I was listening to the promo version of the album, like on repeat, I often wouldn't be able to see what track I was listen. Listening to. So like the first few times it threw and I get to slow cross stick and I'm like, damn, this sounds like Fugazi.

[B]

This is.

[A]

And then I was like, well, dude, it's from instrument. It's slow cross stick. I was so excited.

[C]

It's the, it's the opening track on the. Not of the record itself, but in the. In the documentary. And I just always remember like watching that and being like, holy. It just feels, feels. And it's such a simple song, but it just feels so powerful. And honestly, I don't think we recreated it in a way that's. That is. I don't even know if it does it justice. It was just like, I just wanted to do it because, you know, I mean, like, morally. I really love those guys. And I've always, you know, I've always been a fan of just like, I don't know, just everything. And I remember the first time I heard Instrument, I think. I think I thought I knew what fugazi sounded like. Like, and then I heard instrument in like in Quad Cities, Iowa, just like after the show we played maybe in like 2015 and I was like, this is crazy. This sounds like Duster or something. This is like some other thing that just like I thought I knew what Fugazi sounded like and then I listened to that record and I was just like, holy smokes. It's so. Yeah, I've always. I love that record. That record in particular, Instrument Soundtrack is just like easily one of my favorites. And. Yeah, so I just wanted to like. It's. It's just a.

[A]

No, it's also like a.

[C]

You know what I mean, middle of.

[A]

The record, kind of like stretch where you're just like, yeah, man, we're just gonna, like, like, loosen. Like, it's almost like shake it off and now we're gonna finish the album. But when I heard it and I was thinking, you know, like, instrument was just like a VHS tape that we just had on in our apartment in Boston when I was living there when I was a kid. Kid forever. It just felt like it was on a loop and you would just walk in and be like, oh, ge's about to climb through the basketball hoop now, or whatever.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[A]

But that period of time for Fugazi, which is like, actually like that Red Medicine and Hits instrument era, is like my favorite. But it. It made this connection in my head between, like, kind of what you guys are doing and, And. And what they were doing. And they were like demons in the studio. Like, they're doing so much cool stuff on those albums and. But they could still, like, tear your head and we're still like this incredible rock band. So it was. I thought it was just an awesome. An awesome, like, little, like, Easter egg to throw in there. I wanted to ask you about Sour Diesel. One of the cool things on Lotto is your voice is both at once much more audible, but also it almost feels like I know you're. You're singing about yourself, and I know you're singing about some incredibly intense shit, but you almost, like, are changing the character of the voice on a couple of different songs. Like, sometimes it's spoken word. Diesel has this, like, gorgeous vocal harmony going on. Like, can you tell me a little bit about that song?

[C]

You ever listen to Pinback? Yeah, dude. I'm like a huge Rob Crow head. And they always. I don't know. There's this song, Tripoli that they have, and it's off, like, their first record. This is a Pinback cd. And there's. There's just these, like, interlocking vocal melodies that I was always just like, that's such a cool way to, like, make a song. And I've always just been really into that. So for that one, it was like, I don't know. There's a demo of Sour Diesel that we'll probably put out, like, sometime next week with a video or whatever, and it's just a totally different song. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's. It's way different. Um, it's way more sad and, you know, whatever it was. So I remember bringing that one to these guys and being like, yo, this is how it goes. And it almost feels like another. Another kind of inspiration for that Was like Joyce Mann.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, Constant Headache. Like, just how that song feels, man. It's just so good. Those are. Those are, you know, two timeless songs. I. I think good music just speaks for itself. You can pigeonhole it. You can do whatever. Like, oh, that's pop punk. I don't like that. Or whatever. Whatever. I think anybody that listens to Constant Headache, anybody who listens to Tripoli, whatever, you're just like, this is phenomenal. Like, and I think that was. That's always kind of what I'm trying to get at. It's just like, you know, people always want to call us shoegaze, and they want to be like, yo, you're in this realm or this realm or whatever. But I think, like, at the end of the day, Lotto was kind of like an exploration and just being like, let's just make good music. Let's just see what that feels like to be in a room and just make good music. Music together. And so, yeah, it was an exploration in that way, too. And not trying to lean too heavy into being one way or the other, you know? But, yeah, that song in particular, I like that song a lot. I. I like the demo even more. Like, a. Like, a lot.

[A]

Look forward to hearing the sad version of this.

[C]

Yeah, it's. It's depressed. It's like. But it's. But I didn't want to do that also. Like, I don't know know. Lotto doesn't need to be like, sure, I'm talking about some really heavy or whatever, but we all go through my. Is not worse than anybody else's. And I think. I don't know. I. I really don't want to ever put out anything where it's like, I. I think that's the. The hard part about, like, being an addict in recovery and talking about the real truths of the. Of that is there. It could be seen as some sort of romanticization, but it's really. It's. I really don't want it to be. It to be like, hey, you know, I struggle just like you struggle, you know? And I think that's like. That's really. That's really the. The message of the record in general. I mean, the last song herpin were like. I'm talking about, like, a plane landing when. And that. That actually happened. We were on this plane, and I thought it was. It was scary as. I hate flying.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I didn't grow up flying or whatever. And. Yeah. But the plane lands, and I think that's, like, kind of the thing that I'm trying to get at too. It's just like, like, you know, I don't know, whatever. I just went on a tangent.

[A]

No, not at all, man. I mean, I was wondering, you know, when we were coming into this, I was like, you know, on the fence about how much to ask you about the lyrical content of it. Because I'm sure it's difficult to feel like you opened a vein basically on this record and you're so honest. And then you have to forget, like, have to like, perform it every night. You also have to talk about it it with interviewers and journalists who are like, hey, man, so tell me about this, tell me about that. And I. I do have my personal so issues with some of the stuff that you've talked about, and it's not something I want to talk about every day. You know what I mean?

[C]

Yeah, not at all. Not at all. I mean, that's the thing is, like, I. I learned pretty early on, it's weird when you first get clean, you tell everybody. You know what I mean? You're like, hey, what's up? I'm. I'm Doug. I'm. I'm recovering dopamine and, you know, whatever. And then like years later, later, you get to this point where you're like, I don't need to tell my boss that I'm a junkie. You know what I mean? Like, I don't need to tell certain people this stuff, like, because it's just so personal or whatever. And so I kind of learned that a lot. But it's funny. Yeah, it's funny to be like, you know, I've always, like, veiled everything. That's another thing about A Lotto too, is it's just very out in the open. And the. A lot of the other stuff that I'm talking about on the other records is the same stuff, but it's like.

[A]

Hidden beneath layers of noise and.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So it's weird to like, do all these interviews now and people are like, what's up, you junkie? Like, what's this about? You know what I mean? Like, oh, man, you should just start.

[A]

Lying and be like, oh, no. Actually, this song's about Saquon Barkley. Like, yeah, totally.

[C]

They're all about Saquon Barkley. Ultimately, especially this season.

[A]

American Food. When I heard this, I was like, I. This, this band could do anything. Like, what is going on here? It's got this incredible break. The scratching, the harmonies, but the. The pitched up stuff. Tell. Tell me about putting together. And this is the first single now, you know, we're not talking to Beyonce here. It's like. It's a single, but it's, like, part of an album. But, like, you obviously wanted to make a statement with putting this out first.

[C]

Totally. Yeah. I mean, well, that's like, the whole thing. That's our whole thing all the time is like, red herring.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, just, like. You know, I. I wanted. I. You know, we did. I think things move in cycles. And this too, like, at the end of. At the end of. At the end of Lucky Styles, the Last song is 23 Till Infinity, and that kind of. And it's a totally different song than the rest of the songs. And that kind of alludes to a different. A different thing. Like, the next LP will be this different thing, and I did that intentionally. And then, you know, so after putting out all the, like, the soundcloud things with, like, Swan, like, it was funny to just, like, kind of throw a red herring and be like, yeah, we got this live record on deck, and it's like this whole thing of just us as a band, but we're gonna put out this really weird song. And. And honestly, with that song, it just. Sometimes it happens where they just come together in a matter of hours, and you're just like, I'm done with it. This one's done. And it just feels right. And that one just kind of happened, and I was just like, yeah, this is good. I remember sending it to the rest of the band, and they were like, this is cool. And then, you know, I don't even know if it fits on the record, but I think that's probably why it's really great for it to be, like, a. I think it does, like, thematically, but, like, sonically. I don't know if it fits on the record, but it definitely. Definitely. It was well worth it to make that the first single. You know what I mean? Just.

[A]

It was also really cool because there's a version of that song that I think could have, like, 15 more things on it. You know, like, you could have, like, all these other layers, and this just had, like, the five perfect parts to it, and I.

[C]

It's.

[A]

It's a constant repeat for me. The last one I wanted to ask you about was bass. Ik just because this one. This is up there with Diesel, with, like, my favorite on the records, and it's just the guitar playing is so sick on this song. Song. This was the one where I was like, this is. This is probably gonna be so fun to play live like, 50 times for you Guys. Yeah, this and, and Herp. Him, like, both, like, really great, strong end of the album. Beside, what's, what's going on there?

[C]

So there's this band called Horse Cops from Philadelphia, and they're just one of my favorite bands of all time. And I think, you know, I always draw a lot of inspiration from my friend Josh, who, like, kind of heads that band or whatever. Whatever. And it just feels like a fun Horse Cop song. And I, I, I, I don't know. I, I really, I. That's a Philly song. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's, that's. If I was like, yo, what is. What does, like, Philadelphia sound like? It's like Snoozer. It's like, you know, like, and. And I think it's like, you know, sun organ or whatever, and I think that song is just kind of a celebration of that. Yeah, it's. It's a, it's a. I love playing that one. That one is really fun. I love all the harmonics. It just feels so good. And also, like, for that one, the vocal melody just follows the guitar part, which I don't frequently do.

[A]

That's like a pavement thing, right? Like, Malus does. Like, they'll just do, like, my vocal follows this lead guitar part. Yeah, it's cool.

[C]

Totally. Yeah. And I think, like, I don't know, I often try to figure out what the best melody would be to stand out from everything. But for that one, I was just like, let's just get it right in there and, and see how it feels to just follow the guitar part. And, yeah, it's an enjoyable one. We're putting out a video for that one early next week. That I'm really amazing.

[A]

All right, man. Well, I'm not gonna take up any more of your time. Thank you so much for coming on and thank you for making this record. I can't wait to see you guys more when you come out to your to la. Happy Fall movie season, James. Horror is booming, but Oscar contenders are about to hit theaters. Marty Supreme, Springsteen, Deliver Me From Nowhere, Wicked For Good, and Bugonia. Don't forget blockbusters like Avatar, Fire and Ash, predator, Badlands and Five Nights at Freddy's 2. Those will be huge. Huge. We'll cover those movies every week this fall on our podcast, which is called Raiders of the Lost Podcast. Raiders of the Lost Podcast. Watch or listen on Spotify.