‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Is ‘Game of Thrones’ at Its Best. Plus, the Future of ‘Star Wars,’ ‘Industry’ S4E2, and the ‘Landman’ S2 Finale.

Summary

The Watch — Episode Summary

‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Is ‘Game of Thrones’ at Its Best. Plus, the Future of ‘Star Wars,’ ‘Industry’ S4E2, and the ‘Landman’ S2 Finale.
Date: January 19, 2026
Hosts: Chris Ryan & Andy Greenwald

---

Overview:

This episode dives deep into three corners of contemporary TV, beginning with the Game of Thrones spin-off “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms,” then a detailed breakdown of “Industry” Season 4, Episode 2—one of the more ambitious episodes of the series—and a hot-take-filled debrief on the “Landman” Season 2 finale. Along the way, Chris and Andy tackle the future of Star Wars, the ever-expanding IP universe, and the dilemmas of franchise storytelling in 2026.

---

‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ — A Fresh Chapter in Westeros

Main Discussion: 03:09–10:46

Key Points:

• A New Era for Thrones:
  "This is the new series in the Game of Thrones universe. This one is Showrunner, created by Ira Parker… in consultation with George R.R. Martin." – Chris [03:38]

• Faithfulness and Flourishes:
  Based on the Dunk & Egg novellas, this show is praised for balancing source material faithfulness with lively flourishes, such as a notorious “explosive diarrhea” cold open.
  "I believe that Ira Parker has the exact right sensibility to play to the strengths of the existing franchise… still have some irreverence, still have some wit, still be kind of meta aware of what he’s playing with." – Andy [06:06]

• Accessible, Character-Driven Storytelling:
  Instead of Iron Throne ambitions and sprawling geopolitics, the show champions small stakes and likable leads. "These seem like pretty good people so far and I want them to succeed because their goals are relatively modest." – Chris [08:02]
  "It has been over a decade since we’ve been introduced to any character, I believe in the Game of Thrones universe, whose goal wasn’t outright takeover of the Iron Throne." – Andy [08:13]

• Return to 'Roots' Without Rehash:
  By downscaling, the show manages to capture what made early Thrones special—a sense of lived-in history, humility, and lived-in world-building—without resorting to spectacle.
  "… a harder challenge than people might assume from seeing how comfortable and just enjoyable the show is—to downscale an entire piece of IP and make it something a little bit more approachable." – Andy [09:26]

• Casting and Style:
  The British “BAFTA button” is hit hard: Peter Claffey as Dunk is called "an incredibly charming and funny protagonist"; Dexter ‘Egg’ Ansell is singled out as a great young actor. "They do the thing that I think we often think of as like the cheat code for British series, which is just… you just get actors who are all God-tier…" – Andy [17:22]

• Contained Setting:
  The show is celebrated for focusing on a single setting (the tournament at Ashford), encouraging depth over traditional Thrones width.
  "I was just gonna ask you whether you enjoyed exploring the different corners of a single setting rather than like world-hopping the way Game of Thrones did." – Chris [20:28]

Notable Moment:

• The opening, which fakes out the traditional Thrones title music before an abrupt—and very non-epic—bathroom gag. "Before a quick cut to, I believe, what was your favorite scene in the episode? Explosive diarrhea from our main character, Dunk." [06:49]

---

Franchise Storytelling & Star Wars in Flux

Main Discussion: 10:46–46:36

Key Points:

• Spin-off Strategy:
  The duo discuss how “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” serves as a model for franchise balance versus the Marvel/DC “throw everything at the wall” approach.

• Star Wars Under New Management:
  With Kathleen Kennedy exiting and Dave Filoni ascending to creative control, the pod reflects on Star Wars' future.
  "I am not optimistic about the next few years of Lucasfilm." – Andy [24:03]
  "…the creative director… will be, for better or for worse, the creative… has a very clear… idea about what he thinks Star Wars is about" – Andy [28:36]

• Missed Opportunities and the Pitfalls of Retconning:
  The Star Wars universe is scrutinized for relying too heavily on nostalgia, fan service, and the multiverse, often at the expense of new, coherent storytelling.

Notable Quote:

• “He’s a strict constitutionalist—He’s a Lucas originalist.” – Andy, joking about Dave Filoni’s approach [28:58]

Notable Moment:

• Amused frustration with Galaxy’s Edge’s timeline gymnastics—requiring a comic book miniseries just to “explain” why Darth Vader can be seen in the theme park. [41:02–43:38]
  "But they have now had to go back… so that they can have Darth Vader and Princess Leia and Han Solo walking around. Because people are like, come on, dog." – Chris [41:54]

---

‘Industry’ S4E2 — Maximalist, Audacious, and Unforgettable

Segment Start: 49:15

Key Discussion Points:

• Episode Structure & Ambition:
  The episode, “The Commander and the Gray Lady,” is called "an extraordinary piece of work", lauded for internal bravery, maximalism, and structure. Chris watched it twice, in part for its intricate timeline and mirrored journeys.

• Kit Harington’s Tour De Force:
  Playing Henry Muck, Kit Harington’s performance is described as “dying of thirst for this role.”
  “Kit Harington is…dying of thirst for this role. Like, he is embodying it with his entire self.” – Andy [60:58]

• Theme: Second Acts & Inheritance:
  The episode explores depression, legacies, and the ambiguous privilege of inherited power.
  “‘I don’t think I have a second act.’ …being chained to something, something successful… but you are as disused and on display as a harpsichord.” – Andy [61:39]

• Yasmin’s Solitude:
  Yasmin’s storyline is celebrated for its emotional intelligence—her journey from seeking familial comfort to confronting utter loneliness.
  “It’s Yasmin realizing that she doesn’t have a family anymore at all… when she gets to the end of the night, she finds out… I’m actually alone in this world” – Chris [68:00]

• Stylistic Touchstones:
  Ghosts, vivid setpieces, Arthurian motifs, and gothic flourishes—all “not things we have really seen in the language of the show before.” – Chris [58:29]
  "The audacity and maximalism of it" [53:10] and "The scene, everything that happens with Yasmin and her aunt… one of the best scenes of dialogue." – Andy [67:48]

• Self-Awareness of Characters:
  The show leans into direct, stagey dialogue:
  “The characters on this show have sort of achieved a almost total self awareness at this point in the sense of how they articulate their interiority…” – Chris [63:46]
  "They pitch it is from a line in that scene. It's the nexus of arousal and disgust is what interests them most." – Andy [65:05]

Notable Quotes:

• “It was so maximalist, so extra, so unhinged that it was breathtaking to watch.” – Andy [55:29]
• “One of the great hold camera acting performances of recent television.” – Andy on Harington [61:09]
• “Blood on her lips… Come on, what are we doing here?” – Chris on the final Yasmin/Henry scene [59:27]

---

‘Landman’ Season 2 Finale: Evaluating the Sheridan-verse

Segment Start: 73:58

Key Points:

• Overstuffed, Underbaked:
  Chris and Andy wish the show “ended its second season in a really interesting place”—but bemoan that "that place should have happened in, like, the second or third episode of this season." [74:05]

• Narrative Bloat & Pacing Problems:
  Andy describes the season like a poorly mixed record: “There is a more economical and entertaining way to get there…” [75:21]

• Character & Subplot Overload:
  Recaps of the Tommy storyline, Demi Moore’s Cammy, and meandering asides about oil company antics—all of which felt tonally and thematically inconsistent. “He fumbled the bag.” – Andy on Nate’s career move

Notable Moments:

• Ongoing mockery of the show’s logic and lack of focus.
• “Do you think that Nate made a bit of a professional mistake there?” – Chris [89:21]
• "The show's commitment to starting all scenes with an extreme close up of a woman in her underwear is remarkable." – Andy [83:54]
• Regular references to “Pagan” and Ainsley, running inside jokes about character arcs.

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "[‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’] is a delightful reaffirmation and revalidation of what's cool about these stories." – Chris [05:04]
• "Maximalist, so extra, so unhinged that it was breathtaking to watch." – Andy on Industry [55:29]
• “He’s a Lucas originalist.” – Andy [28:58]
• “There’s value that Kathy [Kennedy] clearly recognized in, like, here's a guy who has an engine of stuff and stories and perspectives and that can help fill our dance card…” – Andy on Dave Filoni [29:18]
• “I was curious about Ainsley, who has spent a season and a half in just full-on preparation for the rigors of cheerleading.” – Andy [86:20]
• “It's just layers of straw after another to support the initial arguments.” – Andy colorfully critiquing Landman [87:50]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Banter: 01:32–03:09
• A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Discussion: 03:09–46:36
• Star Wars/Lucasfilm Discussion: 22:21–46:36
• Industry S4E2 In-Depth: 49:15–73:58
• Landman S2 Finale: 73:58–92:06

---

Conclusion:

Chris and Andy deliver an episode thick with deep TV insights, hearty laughter, pop-culture allusions, and unapologetic opinions. Whether they’re celebrating the artful humility of “Dunk & Egg,” marveling over the risky creative swing of “Industry,” or enjoying the ever-bizarre ride of “Landman,” this installment serves up smart, irreverent, and personal pop criticism with no shortage of quotable moments.

Transcript

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like analyzing plot twists, TaxAct guides you step by step to make sure you get your maximum refund. Get tips along the way. Add expert Assist to talk to tax experts or let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

If you've been diagnosed with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, this is what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Imagine being a million miles away. Tremphaya Kucelcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy. With Tremphya, clearer skin is possible. In clinical Trials, at least 70% of patients saw at least 90% clearer skin at 16 weeks. Results may vary. Tremphya is also indicated for adults with active psoriatic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Tap this ad to learn more about Tremphya or including important safety information.

[Chris Ryan]

Pain Sports have to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, the Commander, it's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

Happy Martin Luther King Day.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah, man. I was waiting to see if you would acknowledge that we're here on a Monday because there was just too much tv. There was, you know, and we couldn't record on Friday and I didn't want to record on Tuesday.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Brandon Tartakoff had a dream. And the Dream would be 400 scripted series in his children's lifetime. Little white shows, little black shows, living together.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what we're here for.

[Chris Ryan]

Greenwald, great to see you, man. What a weekend of television. What a weekend of sport. I was thinking maybe we should start doing the last 10 minutes of this podcast are called SportsCenter.

[Andy Greenwald]

Give me something to look forward to.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's just us talking about Sha McDermott. But we have too much TV to talk about today. And so much so that unless you have any pressing personal announcements, we can skip the favorite favorite part of the show for Bill Simmons and get right into some television.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that officially his favorite Part I thought he'd like. Yeah, that's his favorite part.

[Chris Ryan]

He's always telling me. He's like, you guys, when you guys are just shooting from the hip in the first 10 minutes.

[Andy Greenwald]

He tells you that, but he tells me a very different story.

[Chris Ryan]

No, he does. We have a new show, the best show, and the last episode of a show. Okay, what do you want to talk about first?

[Andy Greenwald]

It wasn't the last episode of Industry, even though it felt like it.

[Chris Ryan]

No, it was not.

[Andy Greenwald]

So. Oh, that's the best show. Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

We have a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. We have Industry. We have the Landman. The Landman, Season 2 finale, the series premiere of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, and the second episode of the fourth season of Industry.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is it. Pick'. Em. I have a sense.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Come on, let's go.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think we should start with Thrones? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

So that's what got me out to la, you know, Game of Thrones. Yeah. And then I flew back. And then I flew back. And then I flew back. But, like, in a big picture sense.

[Chris Ryan]

And one day you just stayed.

[Andy Greenwald]

We owe this show a lot.

[Chris Ryan]

This is the new series in the Game of Thrones universe. This one is Showrunner, created by Ira Parker, although in, I think, consultation with George R.R. martin. We'll talk a little bit about that as we go along. This is a completely different kind of look for this franchise, I guess you could say. It's contained story to some extent. These are based on novellas by Martin. There's six of them, I believe in existence, though Martin says he has ideas for quite a few others. And it's tv.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's three novellas.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I think you, as a loving member of the artistic community, you take him at his word in the same way that you were. Just like, he's got to do that.

[Chris Ryan]

He's got ideas for like 12 more or something like that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I've also heard, and I don't want to break news here, I'm not Jason or Mallory, but I believe he said he has plans for two additional novels in the main series of Game of Thrones.

[Chris Ryan]

Game of Thrones? Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I do believe back in 2010 there was talk about that.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you?

[Andy Greenwald]

I.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, we could talk about George and his. His ever changing role in this world, but I wanted to. I was excited for you to see this show. Y. Yeah, I. I had watched some screeners a little while ago. We won't be doing any spoilers of the future of this season. Although, you know, if you're a Game of Thrones fanatic, you probably know what this series is about if you are just going into it blind, as I did. Going into it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's like a delightful reaffirmation of and. And revalidation of like what's cool about these stories. And I thought this first episode was awesome, but I can't wait to hear what you thought.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought it was great. I thought it was incredibly entertaining. I think we should shout out Ira Parker, as you did. Who's the showrunner of this someone. I don't know anything about him. I think he worked on House of the Dragon. I don't know what he particularly brought, like what his pitch was, what the relationship was. I do know that this series was in active development for a while. Right. And briefly, Steven Conrad, who is a fairly well culty but loved television creator.

[Chris Ryan]

Who has another show on HBO coming in a couple months, DTF St. Louis.

[Andy Greenwald]

DTF St. Louis. But he's responsible for Patriot as well as. There was the other show that I'm.

[Chris Ryan]

Blanking on right now, Ultra City Smiths.

[Andy Greenwald]

Then there was another one, doesn't matter.

[Chris Ryan]

Perpetual Grace limited.

[Andy Greenwald]

God, you're so good. How do you still have it?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. They're buried somewhere in there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Really impressed. Anyway, I believe he was attached to this and I think that's really interesting to think about. But the reason why I bring it up is because it just seems off of one episode and again, one episode out of six. I believe that Ira Parker has the exact right sensibility to play to the strengths of the existing franchise, as it is known on television, but play within those established borders and still have some irreverence, still have some wit, still be kind of meta aware of what he's playing with and the expectations he's subverting while still honoring what everybody who's ever liked Game of Thrones has come to love about it. Perhaps best exemplified by the opening in which the theme music plays briefly.

[Chris Ryan]

The Game of Thrones theme music. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Before a quick cut to, I believe. What was your favorite scene in the episode?

[Chris Ryan]

Explosive diarrhea from our main character, Dunk. Yeah. So it's been interesting talking with Mallory and Joe about this on Talk the Thrones just because it sounds like this is an incredibly faithful adaptation, except for a few flourishes here and there. And one of the flourishes was the. The pooping.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, that's not in it.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not in so. And you know, there's even like a George Martin quote about him being like, you know what?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not. Do the voice. Do the voice.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't have the voice.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was excited.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't have the voice.

[Andy Greenwald]

You look like you reared back for a second.

[Chris Ryan]

He was just like, that's not in the book. You know, and so that is obviously.

[Andy Greenwald]

Here go these Hollywood types trying to put their stamp on the material. The.

[Chris Ryan]

The what? You know, I. I think that his kind of concept of what an adaptation should be is make it as faithful as possible. I mean, he said that explicitly. I think that what Parker brings to this is like a sense of like, wit, like you said, and also feeling like they're. This is the first Thrones show. I think that you can get into like the main characters and be like, these seem like pretty good people so.

[Andy Greenwald]

Far and I want them to succeed because their goals are relatively modest. It has been over a decade since we've been introduced to any character, I believe in the Game of Thrones universe whose goal wasn't outright takeover of the Iron Throne, annexing greenlight. You know what I mean? Like, that is always. It's always coming off the top rope. That's not how the series began. And in that way, it is a return to the roots. But in another way, it is a completely different way in. Because these are just. I don't think that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I am slightly spoiled about the show only because I think that the little kid's name is kind of a giveaway as well as his mysterious, you know, what were you doing in this town, where are you from Kind of thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, why'd you shave your head?

[Andy Greenwald]

But. Well, maybe he had hair loss. Like he was just leaning into it. Yeah, I'm not gonna judge the young boy. People age differently then, you know, it's true.

[Chris Ryan]

They didn't have such a nutrient rich diet as usual.

[Andy Greenwald]

They weren't being served hims ads on their Instagram constantly. They didn't know they had options. I don't believe, and I hope this is the case. I mean, I'm sure there are people who know much better, know more than I do, could tell me I'm wrong. But I don't think that Ser Duncan is actually going to be revealed to be the prince who has promised. No, he's just a nice protagonist for a show and I.

[Chris Ryan]

My understanding is that he has a role to play in the history of Westeros, but not in a huge one.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I mean, I think in the spirit of it, like the way that you have to think about one at this point. I think everyone understands you think about the Westerosi books that they are history books of a made up place. So he's not really writing about. I mean occasionally he will Howard Zinn it a little bit. But largely I believe George Martin subscribes to the great man of history theory in terms of who he writes about. All that is irrelevant. It is actually, I think a harder challenge than people might assume from seeing how comfortable and just enjoyable the show is to downscale an entire piece of IP and make it something a little bit more approachable. I think that we could, we should talk a little bit more about the specifics of this show. But I do think it presents, it's already clearly so successful. I think it presents an interesting counterpoint to some of the other larger franchises and when they've tried to do this, namely Marvel, DC and Star Wars.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I think that you talk about history. One of the things that any franchise show is going to have to establish or have to figure out going into it is what's our relationship to the main timeline? What's our relationship to the events that have already been depicted that might have brought people into this story in the first place. And you know, probably the most ingenious workaround of that was andor where, yeah, it's this 20 hour epic or 22 hour epic about a footnote in Star wars history according to the movies, you know. But it makes it seem like it's the most important thing that's ever happened and perhaps it was in that world.

[Andy Greenwald]

And for those characters who were fully realized people. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think that what I liked about this was it started with people rather than a thing, rather than an event, rather than a turning point, rather than, you don't know, this secret story about like the guy who gave Jon Snow his first beer, but here it is. It's more about what were like, you know, what was like. Give me a slice of life during this time. That's a hundred years before Game of Thrones starts.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that official? I didn't even look.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I think it's like something like 100 years before game of Thrones starts. And I actually find like reading about those kings and the transitions of power and the way different families take over, like in the Wikipedia surface level stuff, I find it like relatively like really, you know, intriguing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I like reading Robert Caro books, but, you know, that's cool, dude.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you though?

[Andy Greenwald]

No. Yeah, I just really wanted to stake out the cooler lane than you in.

[Chris Ryan]

That the cooler lane is reading Robert.

[Andy Greenwald]

Age gracefully, you know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

You've read any other books recently.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you for asking. I did have a nice way to set that up later, so let's save it.

[Chris Ryan]

But, yeah, like, I think that the relationship this show has to the Game of Thrones sort of umbrella or the Big Tree is to show that there are different ways of telling these stories. And, you know, Martin has been pretty explicit over the last couple of weeks in his interviews about the state of his relationship to House of the Dragon.

[Andy Greenwald]

Fascinating Hollywood Reporter cover story and Variety. I forget which one it was.

[Chris Ryan]

I gotta say, man, like, after watching Night of the Seven Kingdoms, and I don't mean this in, like, a completely dismissive way because I do like House of the Dragon at times and some of the performances on it. But maybe George is right and maybe he knows best, you know, and maybe, like, he knows the story better than anyone. And if you shoot what's basically on the page. House of the Dragon is a really hard adaptation because it's like. It's essentially like shooting a couple. Like a couple pages of a pamphlet, right? Like, it's.

[Andy Greenwald]

From what I understand, again, we're the wrong people to. To have strong opinions about this, but. Well, no, we can have strong opinions, but about, like, knowledge of the material. That's my understanding of it as well. And so it always, always was going to be kind of a cursed adaptation because it. What it has is like a family tree and a series of events and some writing, of course, but.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it's like, how do you turn two or three historians who are telling the story but at times are like, we can't be for sure what was said here or whatever. I think in any case, it mean, like, I'm not gonna. We don't have to weigh in a lot on writer that we haven't actually read his work.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, I mean, we are 10 years into doing that.

[Chris Ryan]

But yeah, it just informed it. Just all these interviews and knowing what I know about it, informed, like, oh, like maybe. Maybe a more like sort of traditional adaptation of this work is like, what works.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's incredibly complicated and incredibly difficult, but you can reduce it to something to a fairly simplistic observation, which is, you know, cart before the horse. And in this metaphor, the cart is plot and the horses are characters. And House of the Dragon, I believe, exists primarily to serve a story that seemed cool, that got the world to a certain place, that had a lot of dragons, that I also think we can never overstate the reactive nature of the existence of that show. Because the first time they tried to do a spinoff, which from everything we understand was a little bit more experimental, a little bit more character driven, or at least surprising, by all accounts, it was not successful. And so they were in a rush to get something on the air. And they, they went right at what people have always liked. Not that let me be clear. They went right at what had recently been world dominating about the show, which was Dragon War. And let's do that. This was a chance. They had more time to develop it. And again, we don't know the details of what everything that's been talked about, but it's quite clear from the leaks that we have had over the last few years that the, the gentle fracking of the source material by HBO over the last few years has been relatively considerate, I would say, in the sense that we hear every so often about anywhere from one to six projects being in development.

[Chris Ryan]

Martin was like updating about a bunch of the stuff and it's like there's like a, you know, Aegon's Conquest, that could be a Dune trilogy or it could be another TV show, the Sea Snake thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

That could be a show or a cartoon. Like. They are. They are. They do seem to be taking some lessons from the over dilution of Marvel and Star wars by taking, you know, being a little slower with it, which I think is good. And if this is the result by saying we don't need two Houses of the Dragon, we need two different shows at different times of the year, alternating with different vibes. That seems like a healthy, it seems like healthy stewardship. You know, the other version we're seeing it. I think there was rumor, there was talk this week, like Fallout is such a success for Amazon that they're going to do a spinoff or a reality show, the boys show, that they're doing.

[Chris Ryan]

A reality show for Fallout.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I think the reality show is us watching the second episode and being like, okay, you were right. Like, who says it first? Or like with the boys, a show that I still really like. I'm looking forward to the last season, the spinoff, Gen V. I was like, I'm good. This is.

[Chris Ryan]

Will you be watching Vought though? Like the one that's. The one that's got.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's being run by a college friend of mine and it's stars Aya Cash. So I will be giving it its due diligence. Also, I am interested in the Vought version of the era that Robert Caro wrote about as well as A show that I'm pitching as a companion piece. Generation E. Isn't the Aya Cash character.

[Chris Ryan]

A little bit more Effinger's?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I'm saying. Generation E would be the Effingers at the same time if the Vought Corporation had invested in the Effinger Motor Company.

[Chris Ryan]

If you're new to the Watch, Andy finished a book called the Effingers.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, it's just Effingers.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. Sorry.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just saying. But yes, if you're new to the Watch today, Martin Luther King Day, 2026.

[Chris Ryan]

You so don't want to be potting today. You keep bringing up Martin Luther king day.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. January 19th. Yeah. A day of. Okay. State of Arizona.

[Chris Ryan]

Sean McDermott. The first day of Sean McDermott's new life.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I have a lot of Sean McDermott takes. We'll save it at the end of the show. Back to Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Peter Claffey, who I believe is a.

[Chris Ryan]

Former rugby player and was in Bad Sisters, I was alerted to, is an.

[Andy Greenwald]

Incredibly charming and funny protagonist, is a great, great energy on the show. Really well cast. The young bald egg, Dexter Soul Ansell. He seems like a good young actor.

[Chris Ryan]

He is a good young actor.

[Andy Greenwald]

The direction, Owen Smith. Owen Harris, Sorry. And Sarah Dina Smith did the back half. She's a director that we like a lot in her work. And then what they did is the thing that I think we often think of as like the cheat code for British series, which is just. You just spam the BAFTA button. You spam the National Theater button and you just get actors who are all God tier. And the moment I knew there were two moments in particular, casting wise, where I was like, we're in good hands. One is when our guy, Tom Von Lawlor shows up. That's our dude from say Nothing, I believe. Yes. And you remember him best from his role as one of Thanos Death Eaters or whatever.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I forgot about that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. You didn't remember that? No. That's how you first encountered the work of Carrie Coon as well, when she was Proxima Midnight. Does Tracy not know that? That that's the first time you'd seen his wife act? Well, I guess he's finding out now, assuming he listens to pods on federal holidays. The other actor that I love.

[Chris Ryan]

I know, I know you have a lot of deference to the federal authorities.

[Andy Greenwald]

Listen, I was told. Just comply. Daniel Ings, who is the breakout star of the Guy Ritchie series, the Gentleman.

[Chris Ryan]

Have you watched that show?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, we talked about it on the podcast. Okay watch. Yeah, he's great in it and he is a Baratheon.

[Chris Ryan]

Lyonel Baratheon, the Laughing Storm.

[Andy Greenwald]

And like look, I think people who are not new to the watch understood that the moment I was I fell in love with the show was when there's a tense moment between Ser Dunk and Ser Lionel and it does not end with a red wedding. It ends with a homoerotic dance party.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like okay, this is I kind of alluded to this on Thursday show but I was curious your thoughts on the depth versus width aspect of this series. You know, to take, to take basically one setting which is a giant field in this town of Ashford where they're going to have this tournament. There's going to be this, you know a Knights tournament. And, and Duncan is, is, is, is signing up for this tournament at great personal risk not only for like injury but if he loses like he has to give up whatever money he has which is very little anyway.

[Andy Greenwald]

But like I do have a question. Like I, I've, it's never been a, a me problem, but I do believe the upkeep and feeding of horses is, can be quite cost prohibitive.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean I, I don't know if the, if the what the inflation rate is in Westeros at that moment.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, these horses look very, very healthy and well fed.

[Chris Ryan]

But the Targaryen royal family might have instituted a build back better situation where like prices are coming down, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, do you think that they turned the economy around? They made groceries lower. Fantastic.

[Chris Ryan]

No, but I was just gonna ask you whether you enjoyed exploring the different corners of a single setting rather than like world hopping the way Game of Thrones did.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was thrilled by it, but I also didn't. I've only watched one and but it has been alluded to me that this is the setting for this series. I think that's great. I think that if the show successfully pulls off what it has suggested that it's going to be able to do through this one episode, it will have done something that a lot of other big IP scale like but modest content has not been able to do like you brought up andor which I think is one of the greatest accomplishments of our lifetimes of television. It is also completely not repeatable because it was both pitched at a different level of intellectual rigor and political advocacy and awareness and everything is just at a different level than your normal Star wars show. The price point was not that different.

[Chris Ryan]

No. I mean I imagine this was cheaper.

[Andy Greenwald]

Than Andor that's my point. This is not only cheaper than Andor this is clearly cheaper than House of the Dragon, but intentionally so. And in a way that harkens back to what I was saying last week about, like, have the plan ahead of time so that your budget and you're. So that the budget that you get is aligned with the goals that you have going in creatively. And I think that clearly this was built to be that. And so you set the whole thing in a field. Great. I don't know what the model for that would be in the other realms of ip, but I still think it might be possible. And you would. And you feel like Star wars is the one that keeps stepping on the rake with that in the sense that they're like, oh, well, we could do a show about a bounty hunter kicking around like Tatooine and maybe going into Mos Eisley for a couple blue milks now and again. And then within five, there's digital Luke Skywalker striding across the screen like they can't help themselves and reaching for the shiniest, most expensive ingredients in the shot.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm happy to talk about Star wars if you want to because obviously with Kathy Kennedy leaving Lucasfilm, there was a lot of news about that over the last week. There were several updates about some of the new projects and what they're gonna be doing. Dave Filoni is taking over the creative side of Lucasfilm.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's co president with a woman who's been the head of business affairs, whose name I will Google to get correct as you continue your thought.

[Chris Ryan]

You mentioned the idea of like, Luke Skywalker has to show up in the Mandalorian at a certain point because we need to make this pretty traditional TV show of like a adventure of the week kind of situation into a bigger deal than it already is. That was always really amusing to me because, you know, they struck gold with. With a, like a Boba Fett looking guy and a little Yoda, you know, like they.

[Andy Greenwald]

They did.

[Chris Ryan]

They could have spun that out for a little while longer before they got to. To the Force.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

But I wonder whether or not some of that was the circumstances of Star wars, of Filoni's obvious ascendance within the company up to being the creative director and the sort of president of. Or whatever his title is of Lucasfilm and whether or not that had anything to do with what the storytelling choices were on Mandalorian specifically. Now that's Favreau as well, you know what I mean? And he maybe has big Ambitions anyway, for that story. But I don't know. I mean, like, there's another world where Kathy Kennedy stays in charge of Lucasfilm and it has, like, an ironclad, like, I'm gonna be here for 10 years because the movies have been successful and Mandalorian maybe stays in its lane a little bit more. I'm not sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I am not optimistic about the next few years of Lucasfilm. I would say.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, the next few years are kind of spoken for.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. But I. Well, I think there's a couple things to be said here. One, like, for. As. As justified as much of the criticism that has come, Kathy. A lot of the criticism is justified, I think when you just look at how that sequel trilogy turned out and the complete absence of the multiplexes of anything for a long time. Yeah, like, this is not great stewardship, I would say. You could flip it. And you could also say, who else but Kathy Kennedy with her, the security she had in that position due to her reputation and relationships in the industry, could have gotten it as far as it did in terms of getting that honestly fairly cursed trilogy across the finish line, which was cooked from the beginning when Disney was like, in order to justify this acquisition, we need a sequel up and running within 18 months. We need to do this. It was. It was the opposite of what I was just sort of, you know, describing as a sort of like, gentle, slow food, bespoke cooking of Game of Thrones sequels, which is also probably highly inaccurate, but it was the opposite of that. It was like, we have a deadline and we have a date and we have shareholders to report to. Let's get these things moving right. Once you start, I mean, when you start playing catch up from the beginning, I don't think you can ever actually get in front of things.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it was also just like a decision that they made that even though they were going to push the ball forward with a new trilogy, it was going to essentially be a remake of the first film. You know, with Force Awakens, which is, in retrospect, a pretty decent movie movie. But Beat for Beat is essentially a new hope. I think it was always gonna be. You create this expectation among fans that it's going to be fan service. If a Force Awakens had been some brave new step forward and about different kinds of characters in that world, I think maybe we're talking about something else. It also may not have been that successful.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's also the idea. It's really interesting to see what these are relatively unique jobs and relatively new jobs almost in the Same way that we talk about showrunners sort of becoming a more public figure and a more important. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Franchise GMs.

[Andy Greenwald]

Franchise GMs. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

James Gunn, Kevin Feige, Mike Lombardi.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, there's a list of people, you know, who have the vision above and below now.

[Chris Ryan]

Brandon Beaton.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

Waiting for that call from Filoni.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe when you hire Kathy Kennedy, what you're saying is you want someone with experience producing films in that job. And, you know, she was quite candid on the way out the door in a way that only she can, with the stature that she has already accrued before this. What she talked about how solo was a mistake in her eyes. She owned it in a way, and I thought that was pretty interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

She also was like, the mangled script with Bo Williman for, like, this Knights of the Republic thing, I think is awesome, but is on hold.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Well, it's also probably on hold because James Mangold, I don't know if it's related or unrelated, was like, I'm gonna take my talents to Paramount.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he's directing a Timothee Chalamet movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

At Paramount, but he also signed an overall deal at Paramount to make his own. I know these guys can jump around. No one is untradeable that's gonna come up in our spotlight.

[Chris Ryan]

Lots of people seem to sign overalls and then immediately do something else.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, no, people sign, yes, fair, but usually not within the. Like, they make something for TV or there's something that predated the deal. Anything is still possible. We don't know actually what these deals say for him. But I do think it's interesting that he wasn't like, ah, new blood in the building.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm sure that they're holding the wheel pretty tight over at Disney. I'm sure they knew for a long time, as it's been reported, that Kathy Kennedy was going to be leaving and Dave Filoni was going to be taking over. And so that the development process at Disney has probably been slowed down to something of a crawl.

[Andy Greenwald]

I can vouch for that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So why not? If you're James Mangold and it's like, life's pretty short. Like, Timothy Chalamet wants to make a motorcycle heist movie. I agree, and I'll do it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And as she says in these interviews, like to do one of these is it's at least three years of your life and your career, if not more. And she admitted something. I don't remember if it had been reported before, but she and her team met with everybody. And a lot of this was rumored. A lot of things have been confirmed by the people offhand or off the record. But she straight up said, yeah, we met with Vince Gilligan about doing a Star Wars TV show. We have had multiple meetings with David Fincher about making a movie here. She can have those meetings. I think the differences when you put Filoni in the top chair, so what are you getting there? It is more the James Gunn model in the sense of this is a guy with a sensibility who has likes and dislikes and will be for better or for worse. The creative has, like, a very clear.

[Chris Ryan]

Idea about what he thinks Star wars is about and a very clear idea about, like, what the timeline is and what the values of the franchise are.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And I. I think that those. His opinions are. I don't think this is controversial to say fairly conservative. I don't mean politically. I just mean, like, there is a. He's a strict constitutionalist.

[Chris Ryan]

He's a Lucas originalist.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Yes, he is. And so I think that there's value in. Value that Kathy clearly recognized in, like, here's a guy who has an engine of stuff and stories and perspectives and that can help fill our dance card. When part of the mandate of juggling this company is, you know, kickstart the big movie furnace, but also keep the TV fires going.

[Chris Ryan]

I think she did. I have no. I have no idea if it's being perceived this way, but if I were Dave Filoni.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I would be like, you'd have a different hat.

[Chris Ryan]

That was a. That was a tough interview that she did. Yeah. I thought the last part of that interview where she's like, Scott Burns and Steven Soderbergh did a great job with this Kylo Ren script. Donald Glover has turned in Orlando script. The James Mangold script is mold breaking. Taika Waititi script is hilarious. Here's five movies or whatever, you know, that are sitting here ready to rock, ready to go in terms of their script. And it's like, have fun with Ahsoka.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. That is. You're correctly reading.

[Chris Ryan]

So if I were Dave Filoni, I'd be like, you could have gone out and been like, here are the things that Dave is developing. Here are the things that matter to him and all the other stuff I'll let him comment on.

[Andy Greenwald]

But instead it's just like, well, we've got this fun live action cartoon movie with a, you know, a wrestling Boba Fett coming out.

[Chris Ryan]

Even her being like, I talked to Fincher and Vince Gilligan. Is kind of like, if I had my way.

[Andy Greenwald]

But also in the interview. Interview, she's like, well, Dave got some real reps directing human beings on Ahsoka Season 1. She says that, like, I would say. I would say that I just.

[Chris Ryan]

Tea leaves.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is really more of the town conversation. And I'm sure the town.

[Chris Ryan]

Capital T. Capital T, yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And actually lowercase, but I mean, like Matt Bellany's podcast. I'm very curious to hear how he covers the story in the weeks and months going forward. I think one of the major takeaways, by the way this news broke, is that Dave Filoni, for all of his abilities and resources and connections to this universe, may not have the. What was it called? The Ministry. What did Tony call the Ministry of Propaganda in Andor Season 2. He may not have that because this did not cater to.

[Chris Ryan]

Might not matter because he has the fans.

[Andy Greenwald]

Does he still have the fans?

[Chris Ryan]

I think he has the base.

[Andy Greenwald]

You think he's captured the base?

[Chris Ryan]

I do. I think that there is a, like. I think there is probably a Star wars celebration. Watching long video breakdowns of, like, historical moments in Star wars lore. Cares about the timeline, cares about the. The, like, movements of, like, what's happening on the outer Rim at any given moment. And I think. I think he. He speaks for them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Could we. Could we name them? Are they like maga, like, make Ahsoka great again? Has that been used? Because I think they are like, you could fire them up and you could point them in a direction and they would do what you want. Jokes aside, I think this is a political job in addition to a creative and producerial job. And I think that this was a rocky rollout, especially with the timing of her leaving a couple months before Mandalorian and Grogu comes out, which I think you and I have big floating question marks about. Yeah. It doesn't look awesome. It doesn't necessarily look like something we want.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that I. Whatever. The book of Boba Fett turning into a shadow. Third Mandalorian season.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Going into. Into like, kind of an adjacent Ahsoka story. I was. I. I think that's when I was kind of like, I. This is. This is not really, like, a show I'm really that super interested in anymore. Yeah, I'll go see the movie, but I'll be very interested after the year that we just got through of the kinds of blockbusters that we saw. And with the Odyssey coming, what it feels like to watch a volume movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And I think that the other story coming out of this week that we should comment on. Like, the shadow story behind the announcement of the change at the top of Lucasfilm was the. The subhead story that Dave Filoni hated andor.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I'm not.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which is not on the record.

[Chris Ryan]

He has said on the record.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

What a huge admirer he is of it.

[Andy Greenwald]

My point is this is why the Ministry of Propaganda needs to step up here, because the fact that that was such a heavily pushed story and that is a rumor that I heard before any of this happened. Like that was on Twitter or like no people talking.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, right.

[Andy Greenwald]

That. That's the story.

[Chris Ryan]

The guy comes up to you at Canyon Coffee and says, sir, with tears in his eyes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I can't afford Canyon Coffee on a podcast salary. What are you talk.

[Chris Ryan]

Look at all the beverages you've acquired.

[Andy Greenwald]

You got this for me free. So thank you. Daniel Eck or his successor.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The fact that that is a narrative that continues to exist when in fact, the best version of Star. Forget partisanship for once, Chris. For once. Let me do my CBS Evening News wrap up here.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, Tony.

[Andy Greenwald]

The best version of this would be him saying, what an honor to steer this great galactic star cruiser that has room for all of these shows. And we continue to generate stories in all areas and listen to the best version. Every story idea that would be a successful pivot for the new era of Star wars that doesn't feel like retreat.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think that is and should be the. The format, the. The. The philosophy of any of these franchise GMs that there is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Tons of different stories and different ways to tell those stories within this great storytelling. Honestly, like terrain or.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Should it be the sort of. What would it be like, Phase three era Feige, who's like, everything is a piece of something else. There's an. It's important that there's a house style, that there's consistency in the writing, that there's a consistency in the tone. When. When store. When. When Marvel kind of adopted. Everybody talked like Tony Stark in some ways. You know, everything was kind of glib. Even if, like, Steve was tight and Thor was from Nor, you know, like Asgard. But everybody was like, I have jokes.

[Andy Greenwald]

No one got funnier than Thor. Yeah, Hemsworth is mad, apparently.

[Chris Ryan]

But that you could take Taika Waititi and you could take Ryan Coogler and you could take James Gunn, the Russos and James Gunn and have it all kind of click together.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Chloe Zhao, don't leave eternals at us.

[Chris Ryan]

How could I.

[Andy Greenwald]

The funniest of all the Movies.

[Chris Ryan]

Have you rocked Hamnet yet?

[Andy Greenwald]

Have you? I'm on the record with my feelings.

[Chris Ryan]

About him that you will not be watching it.

[Andy Greenwald]

That I am the.

[Chris Ryan]

If Hamnet wins Best Picture, will you watch it the next day?

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I haven't seen the King's Speech. You know what I mean? When did that become the standard?

[Chris Ryan]

You have seen Green Book a couple of times, though.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, that's my go to. That's my cheer me up movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Every MLK day.

[Andy Greenwald]

Especially every MLK day. Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you see what I'm saying? Or should it be because for the, For. I don't know that you would say. Game of Thrones has a GM that has a very vocal creative like, like originator, like in Martin. And he can have friendly or adversarial relationships with Benny Alvin Weiss.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Or Ryan Condal or Ira Parker. And then it's the HBO machine that kind of makes everything what it is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I think there's. There's no one right answer because a lot of. For brief periods, different versions of each of these models has worked. I think the one thing to consider when we talk about these and we have these conversations constantly. Star wars and Game of Thrones exist on the history as a timeline model where there are no alternate universes. These are all nodes on a timeline that happened and interacted with each other. And you can't really, as much as you may want to, you cannot retcon things specifically. Sure. Marvel and DC exists in the multiverse of madness where anything can happen at any time and you can just reboot and Star Trek, for what it's worth. Not that we even engaged with the new Star Trek Trek show starring Paul Giamatti and Holly Hunter, which premiered last week. So look how far we done fell. That's also on a. Like, we can just reboot and alternate versions of these people.

[Chris Ryan]

The funny thing is that if Paul Giamatti and Holly Hunter were in a Taylor Sheridan show, I would be like, I'm here. I'm reporting for duty.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, finally, come home, Holly. Come home, Paul. So I think that. I think that either model can work. I think the big test for the one creative voice model in terms of DC will be Lanterns, which very clearly was designed to be something slightly different. And then Gun and then Gun took over and we'll see. I'm not saying he meddled, because I don't think that's the case at all. I don't think that's a plausible timeline that he meddled. But can you be both?

[Chris Ryan]

I think also the Big test of Gunn's situation is going to be the many Batman.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's doing the 50.

[Chris Ryan]

Many, many, many, many Batman.

[Andy Greenwald]

Doing the voice. Do the voice.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you know what I mean? That'll be the part where it's just like. It'll be a test of the audience as well. I mean, I don't think the Matt Reeves Batman and the Bold and the Brave. Is that what it is?

[Andy Greenwald]

The Bold and the Beautiful is the soap opera the Brave and the Bold.

[Chris Ryan]

The Brave and the Bold is the gun developed Batman story.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Which they still haven't pull the trigger.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. I think that that would be a big test of. Of whether people enjoy like a sort of in their face multiverse. Not even a multiverse, because that is the thing I would say that Marvel kind of cheat coded their way into. Like this is how we do this is by having.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

We can. We can still roll Patrick Stewart on out there if we want to. But I would say that the over reliance on multiversal storytelling by Marvel is part of the reason why I think people got a little bit fatigued with it. Because nothing matters if you can just reset it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Extremely fatigued with it. And now they have been forced to go all in on what will undoubtedly be the most expensive two film series ever made to basically make as much money as possible and wring out the towel on this one and then set up a hard reboot that people might be ready and interested in watching. I think the thing that's relevant about Star wars is what is the. There's no there there anymore. Like, I understood the obsession with the Skywalker story because that felt like the north pole of anyone's interest in this. And if it was just there to play with. Like, if they were. If CGI Mark Hamill was on the table for any of these stories in the historical timeline, why not hit it to get that little dopamine in the series to make it feel important. Then when they went away from it, tonally and developmentally, it was hard to understand the connection because, you know, something like the Acolyte, which I think was put together with the best of intentions and a lot of creativity and good spirit, felt neither here nor there because it felt tethered to a version of Jediism that is very Filoni esque in terms of its seriousness and everything. But it. So it didn't have any. It tried to bring a different point of view to the same energy, which I think is a challenge andor was completely different and worthwhile. But what is the main timeline what is the Avengers movie of the Star wars thing? And I guess it is the Simon Kinberg trilogy that he has been working on, which I would imagine is episode 10, 11, 12.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, and Starfighter is set after the events of the most recent trilogy.

[Andy Greenwald]

So that's where they're going to be doing their developmental work. But it is hard when especially they've essentially, since Disney took over, they have maximized a lot of it. But they've also frittered away another decade which could have been spent sowing the seeds of something new. I know that you don't pay a lot of attention to theme park or comic book news because you're too busy reading the histories of Westeros.

[Chris Ryan]

Andy, I have this saved this StarWars.com announcement about Galaxy's Edge.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you want to talk about this? This is so wild.

[Chris Ryan]

If people aren't familiar, Jason Gallagher and I actually did a long podcast about this while you were making Briar Patch. I think when Galaxy's Edge first came.

[Andy Greenwald]

Out, did you go.

[Chris Ryan]

No. Excuse me. Why would I go to Galaxy's Edge?

[Andy Greenwald]

I just thought you were ready to share that you were a Disney adult, but I guess not.

[Chris Ryan]

No. And it is a park in Disney World where there is some narrative. You're on a planet called the Batuu.

[Andy Greenwald]

Don't look at me like I know now. Ask Kya. It's her generation stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

There was also like a hotel there that was like $1,500 a night was like some sort of like, you're on a starship in this hotel. I don't know if that still is there or if they had to shutter that because of this economy. But they have now had to go back to the drawing board. Not the drawing board, but they've had to adjust the timeline of Batuu so that they can have Darth Vader and Princess Leia and Han Solo walking around. Because people are like, come on, dog.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Because like. But Ray gets to say by the way, but all the other new because I think it is like an immersive. You're in a. Someone could tap you on the shoulder and be like, do you want to make a do the Kessel Run? Or whatever. And you could be like, let me finish my blue milk first. It's pretty your vibe, but let's just make it clear. But yeah. So I guess that they wanted to maybe. I don't know if attendance was dwindling or interest engagement. So now Darth Vader walks through it. But the funniest part to me is they are so yoked to the dorkiest parts of our culture that they had to commission a Marvel Comics miniseries explaining why Luke Skywalker and company are now in this invented world. Yeah, because you're gonna show up with a fucking $30 funnel cake and two screaming eight year olds, and you're gonna be like, I don't think Greedo survived to be around now. I think. Excuse me. Excuse me.

[Chris Ryan]

Should we do a field trip? A field trip to Galaxy's Edge. Would you come with us? Yeah, sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

What holiday would you like me to do that on?

[Chris Ryan]

Russia shot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. There you go. Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

As Lottie Evinger would have wanted.

[Andy Greenwald]

As Lottie Evinger would have wanted.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, gosh.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. I just feel like when. I'll make it personal. When I was five or six years old and I went to Walt Disney World in Florida and Captain Hook was walking around near Chippendale, I wasn't like, wait. Wait a fucking second. Yeah, explain this. Yeah, Walt. You know, I got it. Maybe we're a little too far down the rabbit hole.

[Chris Ryan]

All of this is to say, just to take it briefly back to Thrones, is that I actually, weirdly, do think Thrones supports this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Because I think that while there are people who are probably, like, Thrones originalists and really are like, we need to get back to the basics here, and this is about this, this, and this, there seems to be a little bit more of a healthy adversarial relationship between the fans and the author, especially because the author has not finished these books. And I think that this show shows a great way forward for the franchise itself. I, I. At the end of season two of House of the Dragon, I was like, until they figure out, like, what happens the day after Game of Thrones ends, I don't know that this is gonna work. To keep doing things that people can easily spoil for themselves, to keep doing things that ultimately are gonna be, like, living in the shadow of this. One of the great series of. I mean, aside from the last bit of it, like one of the great series we've ever had. And now I'm like, oh, I guess. I guess that you could do all sorts of things with this story.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the one aspect of fandom, and I mean this respectfully, that is challenging for Hollywood to reckon with or feed, is a deep desire that fans of various worlds or franchises have to just kind of be in that world. That's why you have the Galaxy's Edge thing, to sort of the immersive fan experience that's why it's not just that there's a robust fan fiction community is that a lot of best selling hardcover books emerge from fan fiction.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's something that is, you know, I understand why it's challenging because you can't as much as I would like, you know, a genial kind of freeform hangout show about almost anything. TV demands plot, TV demand. I mean, it's a different. It's a different medium. But I think that the Game of Thrones world, as awful and violent as it is, it's the same thing. There are these romantasy series that I haven't read, but the Fourth Wing series. And I don't think it's just the. I'm going to limb. It's not just the dragon fighting that people like. These are enormous books with entire societies and romance and things built into them. That's as much fandom as the destruction of Sokovia. You know what I mean? And I think that you've got to get that.

[Chris Ryan]

That's my federal holiday. That's what we're observing.

[Andy Greenwald]

You haven't forgotten. You haven't forgotten.

[Chris Ryan]

We're actually taking Thursday off because that's the anniversary of Sokovia.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Sokovia Accords are more important to you than I believe.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think that we would have been hitting Sokovia with tariffs by now?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the Sokovia Accords have proven to be.

[Chris Ryan]

Had Ultron not dropped it on the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Ground, Sokovia Accords have proven to be more. Had proven to be stronger than the NATO alliance. I think that's, that's canon now.

[Chris Ryan]

Anything else you want to say about Night of the Seven Kingdoms?

[Andy Greenwald]

We've said so much. Not about Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I really enjoyed it and I think the ultimate thing that we didn't even. We only mentioned in passing is the average episode length is like 35 minutes and.

[Chris Ryan]

Martin, are you like God?

[Andy Greenwald]

I love it. I love it. I'm thrilled by that.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Scout Motors. You don't change the game by standing on the sidelines. You do it by building something new. Iconic in the 70s and reimagined for today. The all new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler are engineered from the ground up with advanced capability and bold ingenuity. Build brand new for what's next opposing defenses take note. Join the wait [e-mail] Concept vehicles not available for sale. Joining the waitlist does not guarantee purchase. Visit scoutmotors.com for details. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Without Internet, you wouldn't be able to hear my beautiful voice right now and businesses wouldn't be able to stay connected the way they need. What if I told you that business owners can get free business Internet advantage forever? When you add four or more mobile lines, Spectrum Business keeps you connected seamlessly with Internet, advanced wi, fi, phone, TV and mobile services all in packages tailored to your business budget. No contracts, no added fees. All you have to do to find out how you can get free Spectrum Business Internet [e-mail] freeforlife that's where you go. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

[Chris Ryan]

100 free events 6000 Kids 1 Mission Clinic Kids is using sports and evidence based wellness coaching to help kids build confidence, resilience and the tools they need for life's challenges and opportunities. Up until May 2026, they're running 100 free sessions for schools and community based organizations near you. Learn [e-mail] 100kk that's clinic with a K. Clinic Kids is a registered 501C3 nonprofit.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Viori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Vuori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to Vuori.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Vuori V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk about industry.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. You're saving Landman.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. Yeah, we can save landman. Industry Season 4, Episode 2 the Commander and the Gray lady which is essentially Mickey down and Conrad K doing A Christmas Carol. This show is series, for what it's worth, Big, big suckers for Christmas. There's been a few Christmas episodes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Chris, you've been with me in the UK these last two Novembers. There is nothing bigger in England than Christmas than Crimbo. They fucking love it.

[Chris Ryan]

They're obsess and they are not beating the Goodfellas allegations with the soundtrack of this one and the, you know, like this is the overall vibe. I saw some people online talking about, you know, we're gonna see we're seeing, like, goat level television right now. And I don't know whether it's. It's a testament to the fact that I just expect this from the show now, like, I expect television at this level. But I watched this episode twice, actually. Like, I watched it once just straight through, and I was like, how much.

[Andy Greenwald]

Time did you take between the viewings?

[Chris Ryan]

I just immediately ran it back. No, I took. I took the second half of the Bears game between the viewings.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

And. Because I just wanted to see how it felt, knowing where it was going to end, seeing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Knowing the scaffolding and the shape.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, sure. And it's just an extraordinary piece of work, man. Like, you know, we just spent a long time talking about Thrones. If I had told you that this is where, like, Kit Harington was gonna be, I mean, would you ever have believed me?

[Andy Greenwald]

Now, one thing we didn't mention in the George R.R. martin interview, he alludes to the idea that the Jon Snow sequel series didn't go forward because Kit Harington basically wanted to do what he did last night in industry.

[Chris Ryan]

Because he made me fat.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

So in this episode, Henry Matt Muck, we find him. You know, we saw him at the end of the first episode crushing up pills and playing a harpsichord. And that shot takes place pretty much at the end of the first act of the second episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

The timing of these episodes is intricate. Yes. There's moments that sync up with 401, and then there's a deeper story. Then there's moments that are completely different events. That's why one might want to do a second viewing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I was curious about Harper and Whitney and that stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

And like, this would be their second night.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. So in any case, in this episode, Harry Muck is losing his battle with depression at precisely the moment that his father lost his in his life. It's the 40th birthday. And on the night of Henry's 40th birthday, he's visited by a series of characters, some of which are real, like Whitney Halberstrom and his Uncle Alexander and an old priest and a mysterious guest at this huge, lavish, Dangerous Liaisons Peter Greenway party that he's having for his 40th birthday. A guy named the Commander shows up right when he is really going off the deep end.

[Andy Greenwald]

I believe he's dropped acid.

[Chris Ryan]

I think he's dropped acid. And he comes into this banquet where all of his friends and his wife and his colleagues are there and members.

[Andy Greenwald]

Of the woman labor government in a.

[Chris Ryan]

By election, and he's Just pissed out of his mind. And this guy shows up and takes him out on a night on the small town that he basically owns. And we just get, you know, a dark, dark night of the soul with Henry Muck for the most part. And then the sort of second half of this episode is Yasmin's relationship to what's happening to Henry, what she wants to do with her life, what she wants to do with her marriage and what she sees for her marriage. Before we get into the details of it and sort of some of the different moments, why don't you tell me what you thought of this episode?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I want to just before I forget, because I might forget otherwise what you were saying about people showering this episode with hosannas specifically for something I'm going to shower with hosannas for the audacity and maximalism of it, but also specifically some of the dialogue. I think the structure bears repeated investigation and also praise because with a relative economy, I mean It's a 60 minute episode, but a relative economy of screen time. To send Yasmin on a journey that earns its counterweight place with the Henry journey so that they can end together is really hard to do. That is like next level scripting and plotting and structure. Particularly when you add in the challenges of the slightly skewed overlapping timeline and the fact that they are essentially rebooting the show, as we mentioned last week, with new characters and new stakes. So that alone is really remarkable. The thing that I wanted to say about the episode is this is a. Maybe it's a crutch, but I do find that it, I do find that it bears repeating from time to time, which is the observation that storylines or characters arcs in TV shows often really do echo the experience or the publicized known public facing experience of the people making the show. And, and the reference, the example one always uses, or I always use is like, oh well, that's what the money is for. That was the David Chase, Matthew Weiner relationship and he's talked about that. Last week there was a moment when I started going down that old oh, I'm still writing a column for Grantlin Brain and seeing Harper being perhaps over her skis in terms of power and authority behind a big fancy desk and a big baroque building still being looked down upon by old white people. I'm like, oh. Mickey and Conrad are asserting their ownership of the show to a degree that they have not done before, even though they have been the showrunners and obviously the co creators. But now that they are completely the authorial voice on the script and behind the camera. Is there something going on there? And then I realized that what Harper is doing, though, constantly is shorting things and underestimating things and profiting from that. And that is the opposite of what these guys do. They are fucking whale in Macau when it comes to the gambles they are willing to take with their prize, which is having a show on hbo.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think this episode was so maximalist, so extra, so unhinged that it was breathtaking to watch. And there were moments when I sent you the Philippe Petit skyscraper walk when I was watching the episode before you did, because there were moments when I was like, I think they're tipping. I think they are tipping too far on the wrong side. And then, like true acrobats, they right themselves.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

The difference between the ice cold show that industry was at the beginning, and that it often is with the contoured lines of the city or the version of the city that they recreate in Cardiff with the hot blooded Tom Jones diner. It wasn't a diner scene. Tom Jones doesn't live here anymore. The Tom Jones dinner scene baroque aesthetic of the season finale of season three, that was recreated here is. That is a wild spin. And there were also moments when I was like, I think they're more interested in this version of the show. That is the Henry version of the show. And when Henry returns to the city, as I imagine he inevitably will now, I wonder if they will be able to marry the hot and cold sides of the show like a mcdlt.

[Chris Ryan]

It's the second episode of the season and I obviously we had one episode that was largely about Max Mihaila and Kal Penn's characters. Harper's part of it, obviously, but, you know, we get little glimpses into what they're doing. But I felt like that first episode was about Tender and the second episode is about Henry. So now we're about to start the third episode of this season and. And the players have not gotten to the same gym yet.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but they're going to in the third episode when we're about to talk about the tenth episode of the second season of a show on Paramount that is just starting the show as it sets up the third season. So I think they're doing things fairly economically.

[Chris Ryan]

You mentioned the season three finale, which in some ways was a series finale for a certain version of the show. And I love how there may not be narrative connected tissue, although if you pay attention, there is. But in terms of, like, style, aesthetic, visual, sort of Bravery episodes will then give permission to future episodes. So shooting what they shot at Henry's place in the. In the previous. In season two, in season three, kind of gives them a lay of the land to do how to shoot so much rooms, more stuff in this. And, you know, that they're using anamorphic lenses. They're, you know, obviously indulging in the gothic aspects of the surroundings. So much so that they are bringing in ghosts and bringing in flashbacks, which.

[Andy Greenwald]

Are not things we have really seen in the language of the show before.

[Chris Ryan]

No, and I. I think I almost. I'm. I'm. I'm itching to get to the last scene, the very last scene. You know, there's this also playing around with the. And then also lampooning the mythology of the great English man and like, the. Almost like Arthurian kind of like you and the land are one. And having Alexander, Henry's uncle, in the window saying, like, it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, spring is. Spring has returned.

[Chris Ryan]

Spring has returned. Like, the idea that, like, this family has now kind of, like come out of the darkness in the wilderness of this guy's depression. But, you know, that final scene, and there's, you know, look like it's easy to just be like. It's like the Graduate, you know, there's. There's some ambiguity to, like, how they feel. But I thought those two actors were so remarkable in that drive, you know, not. Not. Not the humping against the car. Although they did a great job doing that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought they were great.

[Chris Ryan]

But his kind of like, I'm laughing, I'm crying, I'm laughing, I'm crying. Or is it just the wind blowing in my face? And Marisa Bella's reaction to Henry being like, we should try for a child, and his blood on her lips is like, come on, what are we doing here?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, they touch God on that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, and I know that that's what they're trying to do with this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Show, but you don't get that moment without a lot of hard work. One of the, you know, talking about the structure, like, the scene, everything that happens with Yasmin and her aunt, played by Claire Forlani, you know, where the aunt's parting invective is. Your father told me he was going to make sure that the pregnancy was aborted if it had been a boy. And here you are. And a lot about what it means to be a woman and what it means to be a woman, to support, love, submit, to control whatever men in this world. And then for him to say, I'm better now. I'm gonna give you something else to take care of. Sure, it's all there. But what's also there is the casting and the, you know, maybe this is an economic term that I could start to understand is the opportunity or the opportunity cost, because maybe all actors, all ambitious or hungry actors who have been locked in chainmail or franchise armor for years need to go to Ibiza with Mickey and Conrad. Maybe literally or just metaphorically.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Kit Harington is. So he's dying of thirst for this role. Like, he is embodying it with his entire self.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it's so funny.

[Andy Greenwald]

The opening scene where he is embarrassed and smiling is one of the great hold camera acting performances of recent television. And, and he brings that level of commitment and intensity to every scene, which is required considering the cocktail of drugs and suicidal ideation that he is existing under.

[Chris Ryan]

And the fact that he was like Jon Snow drove me to ruin, like, playing that part. But playing Henry Muck is like my.

[Andy Greenwald]

Dream role, but it allows him to say, I don't think I have a second act. Yeah. You know, and Whitney says, maybe there aren't second acts in American lives, but the idea of being chained to something, something successful. In this case, you're born a lord, you are born rich, people are touring your home as if you contributed something to this world, but you are as disused and on display as a harpsichord. It's a remarkable act. And I'm very curious how this plays in the UK too, because I think we are just enough removed from being immersed in that kind of like landed gentry society to have just, oh, I'm empathetic about the new character on my television show. Whereas if the American version of industry, which could never exist, but, you know, a new character that we are building empathy, equity with, the first thing we see is that he's standing for election, you know, wearing a MAGA hat. Like, I feel like that would maybe turn off now. I understand Maga's Reform Party. I get it. And personally, I vote bin face every time.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I just think that they're, they're doing their best to save Ahsoka.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right. That's right. I, I, I find, I find it, I find it interesting. And it's a, again, that's another, It's a, it's a wild risk to be like we are. Because there's a version of entertainment about this level of society or this world, whether it was the world of Wall street or the street or the upper upper class of England that is satirical, that is taking the Piss. That is the gentleman that is. It's all a joke, and we're all the victims of the joke. One of the reasons why industry stays ahead of the curve, I think, is because for all of the bluster and all of the massive amounts of cocaine, I think Mickey and Conrad are softies in terms of their interest in the emotional lives of these people. And it's quite a gamble, making us care to the degree that they do about people who live like this.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. What do you think about. You mentioned the Whitney line about maybe not second acts, and he's like, maybe not in American life. The characters on this show have sort of achieved a almost total self awareness at this point in the sense of how they articulate their interiority, even their journeys, even their. Now, some of it may be theater and some of it may be projection, and some of it may be like, you know, the side of me that I want people to see. And I think that the Harper character specifically does a lot of, like, clomps in and heavy boots to like, let everybody know, like, I'm a badass.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm that motherfucker. And then is like, has like, vulnerabilities and has her own pain and stuff like that. But it was interesting watching, you know, Henry in the. In the. The hunt scene with his uncle, and then Henry and Whitney's conversation, Yasmin and Henry's huge fight in their amazing. In their bedroom. But it's a specific kind of writing where it's like, I'm not waiting two seasons or three episodes or six episodes for someone to arrive at this revelation about themselves and be able to articulate it. But it is also like a different kind of writing. Like there is a. Would you describe it as stagey?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a great question. I was gonna say that where they pitch it is from a line in that scene. It's the nexus of arousal and disgust is what interests them most. The stagey thing is interesting to consider just because of the fact that stagey.

[Chris Ryan]

Is used as like a. Yeah, well.

[Andy Greenwald]

These guys are staging it too. That's the other thing. Yeah, it is. You know, there was a. It was a hallmark of succession that characters would tear at each other with knives in a just past the sausages scene. A lot of sausages on the breakfast table, by the way. And I did see they posted some BTs of adding more sausages to the plate, so at least they were having fun with it.

[Chris Ryan]

I loved the fact that there was just way more food than any of those people were gonna Eat. But there's so much excess. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The reason I bring up succession is because the tenor of the way that they talk was really beautifully and intentionally paired with the way Mark Milod moved the camera. It was all handheld sort of circling, and it was almost like watching a nature video of someone like Serengeti watching these great animals attack each other. This is somewhere perched in between. And I think they're getting their own confidence as to how they want the camera to move. And sometimes you notice it more. And so then when the camera is in the Great hall perched way back and they're not in the center of the frame, I am made aware of the framing in a different way, which maybe feels like they're on display.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

But. But all of it works for me because the language of the show has always been, from the very beginning, that on the trading floor, you can say anything because it's ultimately binary. You're either making the trade or you're not. And anything between you and the trade needs to be removed expeditiously, if not savagely. I think that the language, particularly in this episode, felt sharp to me. And I think that what I mean is, like, in a big scene where characters are really saying what they feel about each other or what they see in each other, there can be a tendency to just keep writing it until it starts to become flabby and everything is so pointed that it didn't take me out of it. I think that there are some observations, and we can get into some of the specifics if you want. But, like, the scene. The two scenes that. The scene with Yasmin and her aunt, where they talk about how these men love murdering women, no matter what, was a remarkable scene of dialogue. And I'm very curious when we talk to Mickey and Conrad at the end of the season, the genesis of that, because, you know, famously, they don't really have a writer's room, and their buddy, another great writer, Joe Charlton, helps with it. And I'm sure they do have other consultants involved from time to time. But, like, that felt in a good way, like other characters bringing a point of view, you know, or other people bringing.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I love that whole storyline of this episode because it's Yasmin realizing that she doesn't have a family anymore at all. You know, it's like this. I. She leaps up at the arrival of her aunt.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Because she's surrounded by all these people dressed up as viscounts and whatever. And she finally sees another Hanani, you know, across the room and goes running over to her. And, you know, it starts with this kind of like, immediate kind of connection and this.

[Andy Greenwald]

You understand me? I'm listening to your advice.

[Chris Ryan]

And then it starts to get darker and darker. And then she spots her with Otto. And then, you know, like. And then when she gets to the end of the night, she finds out, like, I'm actually alone in this world. And so that also informs, I think, not only what she does with Haley, but also like, what happens, why she's hanging on to this Henry thing so hard and she's giving him one last chance. But that like, when you are like kind of a lost at sea with that, without anybody else sharing your name, you're gonna behave differently than if you're like, I come from a huge family. And that's why Henry behaves the way he behaves.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I. I also think that what one of the best aspects of the way Mickey and Conrad make television is they do. I don't know if it's generational or if it's experiential or just being aware of what they like in entertainment and putting it onto the screen, but Henry's journey towards. And there's a direct quote, you know, we would rather die afraid than be present for a single second of our lives, basically, that is beautifully compelling. Devastating, Hard earned therapy speak.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

That in, I'm gonna say lesser shows, other shows, that's a season, that's a series. Sure, they dispatch it in a incredibly dramatic, sometimes melodramatic, long night of the soul. That's a choice. And I think one that is, again, the degree of difficulty is extreme. But at the end of it, I also wanted to take my sports car out on the road. Like, they didn't crash the car even though they came close to it. What did you feel? At what point did you realize we were in kind of a fight club ghost situation at the bar?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean. Cause I initially it was like, obviously nobody seems to acknowledge that the commander is there and the dinner scene. So there was something a bit off about that first, first moment he's introduced.

[Andy Greenwald]

Although when you're watching it, you're like, well, I. Again, from, from, from the colonies. I'm like, the level of grin and Barrett through performed humiliation has been that, that, that's been established.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

That like they will just keep gritting their teeth and drinking through almost anything.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. But I. So I was like, oh, this is interesting. Maybe this is a schoolmate, you know, who's come back. Or maybe this is his, his like his fucking wild friend who always like, brings him into the. To the mess.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But by the time they get to the pub and sit down and I actually had first had that thought about the priest, which I'm not entirely sure if he was there either. You know what I mean?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think the other thing that I thought was subtle and interesting was that the. The. The maid.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Molly. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Molly is intentionally cast and dressed as working class Yasmin.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, she is a double for her. Yes. And I think that was very intentional as well.

[Chris Ryan]

When the bar happens and when the fight happens, I was like, this guy's not there.

[Andy Greenwald]

I did have a moment of too much TV drift because we had just watched another show that we're about to talk about in which a character punches someone perhaps 12 to 15 too many times with slightly different outcome.

[Chris Ryan]

The Midland Police may not have left.

[Andy Greenwald]

They would not kindly on this. They wouldn't have let it go. But again, it's a different system. You mentioned the Harper thing. I liked the use of Harper in this episode a lot because I like giving Myhallah a chance to play different notes. And she seemed. Because the weight of the world and the weight of the episode is not on her shoulders. She was very smiley and seeming, like, legitimately flirty and able to, like, be more of a human than. I don't mean. This is not a criticism of the performance. I mean that the character was able to let her guard down slightly in a way that was charming and appealing.

[Chris Ryan]

And that scene between her and Yasmine. So, like, it's great. It's like being in, like, a very mini Harold Pinter play where it's like, all of a sudden it's just like, why have you invited me? Why are you here? Because I have to be. Why are you here? I'm lonely. Why are you lonely?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not two episodes in. I'm not fully convinced about Max Minghella. I think that. I guess I'm curious what role.

[Chris Ryan]

We just have to. I think you have, like, we'll get to the end of the season and.

[Andy Greenwald]

Be like, ah, yeah, possibly there's a version of it where he is just fully the devil, you know? And I think that the performance and the lighting is leaning into that in the early going, in which case, you know, I guess I'm just curious where it's going.

[Chris Ryan]

I think I feel that way about the season itself, but I'm not worried. I'm just like, what's this about?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think my comparison point. And again, this feels like a completely different television show as I'm about to bring it up, but I was going to bring up J. Duplus, the last significant time that an American character came in. And I have no idea how they wrote the character. I have no idea what their casting process was like, who they were picturing when they wrote the character versus what they ended up with. But he brought something that was specifically. It's not off putting. It was off kilter. So that I wasn't sure how to feel about him, because you're used to seeing a Duplass brother as, like, just a puffy chair in human form, you know, but he was obviously a little bit more than that. And I liked that uncertainty. I would like more uncertainty from this character in the early going, especially if Harper's flash and smiles, like. But that's just a purely surface level note.

[Chris Ryan]

We've alluded to Lambman a couple of times. Our great. Our great dig. Our great drilling is over.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, apparently we have seasons. More of reserves.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, yes. I mean, there was. There's definitely going to be a third season. It sounds like there could be at least five or six. I don't know how that works against Taylor Sheridan's universal peacock responsibilities. We'll see. I. I thought this show ended. Look, I mean, like, you and I have a lot of fun at this show's expense, but just to be sober about it for a second, I thought the show ended its second season in a really interesting place and that that place should have happened in, like, the second or third episode of this season.

[Andy Greenwald]

Of this first season, perhaps as well.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I mean, I think, like, I. I think that there was a different version of this show on the first season that was way more about, like. Like all the disasters that a guy like Tommy has to handle. And my relationship to the show was a little bit more kind of like, fun loving and forgiving when I was like, it's kind of cool to see, like, all the different things that go wrong in an oil. In the oil business and in this world and how this guy has to handle it. And then the second season is largely Tommy in a pickup truck driving back and forth across Texas, fielding calls, putting out fires and putting out fires. But, like, the first two episodes are kind of like that. And then there's like, a middle block of six episodes that are essentially like the Norrises.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. There is a Ministry of Propaganda, Caroline Levitt version of the show in which someone. And honestly, they should be leaking this. Someone should leak this. Oh, my God. The fact that we ended up in a creatively fulfilling and exciting place considering all the challenges we had to go through making this show. Yes, please, someone leak that story. And even if it's pure Taylor whitewashed propaganda, I would love to hear. I don't think. No. Cause nobody, they don't care.

[Chris Ryan]

And he doesn't talk.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, he talks through his characters and turns out sometimes you just need to give the ferret a bath. It is tough to give the show points credit for ending in a place as you said that if that was the goal, there is a more economical and entertaining way to get there. We could ask a hundred questions and I have them here in bullet point form about what any of it was for if this is where we were going. I think the truth, the only plausible interpretation of the show is that the showrunner who writes every episode is essentially a wind dancer in front of a Fort Worth auto dealership getting distracted by shiny things blowing in different directions. Because. Because you can't tell me that this was what the season was all about. The end of season. Let's just talk through this chronologically and logically. The end of season one, Tommy is tied up, beaten, a nail gun shot into his leg. All at the behest of cartel boss Andy Garcia.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, really, their account, he's more of like their money maker.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. But then he's just like, I'm gonna have them remove the nail from your leg now, but I own you. And you have been warned.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Don't do this shit again. Second season reintroduces Andy Garcia as the man who controls all of Tommy's son's drilling. And that leads to a six episode run of Tommy walking into Andy Garcia's office saying, fuck you. And he goes, I don't know, Tommy. Fuck me, Maybe fuck you. And then they run it back while their wives become friends. Because shopping. Yes. Okay. Concurrent to this was the idea that Demi Moore was in the cast of the show for an entire season last year. Swimming laps, where she just swims laps and sometimes strokes Jon Hamm's cheek, gives.

[Chris Ryan]

Him a smoothie and a park pill.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because when he, you know, they do the Taylor special and it's like, I thought this guy was on another show. Oh, she would step up in the early going. We see her learn to fight on the savanna by talking shit about younger women in bathrooms.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Then just as she's stepping into her power, we learn that primarily what she wants to do is have unhinged Emmy baiting crying freakouts where she pours out whiskey at gravestones. That's what she does for about Two or three episodes. Suddenly, at the end of the season, she becomes the gambler of all gamblers. Commits $400 million to a shot in the Dark in the ocean. A shot in the dark that we kind of root for, because I thought we were supposed to root for the risk takers on the show. And also, that geologist is super hot with great body products, and Rebecca's in love with him and wants this path to be followed. Tommy talks Andy Garcia into backing it, then says that's a bad idea to back it. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Cammy really talks. Yeah. Tommy never is really for this.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then Cammy fires him, and suddenly everyone. I mean, this might be something that is actually relevant in America. Everyone here was always against this, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Well, there's a couple of things. I think what you're reacting to is the same thing. I largely agree with you about this. We're reacting to. If this was an album, it was poorly mixed.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is so generous.

[Chris Ryan]

My point is this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

There's a straightforwarder, more straightforward way of telling this story that hits certain beats at certain points and turns the kick drum up enough so that you're like, ah, yes, this is the tempo or the rhythm I need to keep be aware of this. But because they emphasize Ainsley and Cooper and Angela doing stuff in and around Texas.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

As much as the oil drilling aspect of it and the company, the emtech's aspect of kind of the M Tech stuff seems to kind of like, be lost somewhere underneath a bunch of noise. And then at the end, they're like, no, no, no. Cami has always been a gambler. She's trying to prove that she like that Monty lives forever through this company.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

But Nate has always known that this company was always built to be sold because he's been hiding all these boxes in the basement of this building. And he's like, he never meant for this to go on. He meant for it to be sold. You should sell it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Why does Nate live in the house hundreds of miles away from where the boxes are?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. I think he's supposed to be, like, overseeing the contracts needed for the drilling day to day. Yeah, sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I like that. It's so elegant. The seine washing you just did. No, it's not sane washing the analogy to, like, what happened with the Replacements album. I love it. Except the original Replacements albums didn't have an incredibly old saxophone trying to fuck an underage keyboard. Like, that's not what the problem with those records were. That needed to be cleaned up in the edit.

[Chris Ryan]

I forgot About TL and Cheyenne.

[Andy Greenwald]

My take on the season is that Demi Moore had an A.J. brown type campaign where I believe that she may have been agitating to be traded early on in the making of the season. Because I would say the amount of targets she was given did not really add up.

[Chris Ryan]

Can you say that? Can we make a gentleman's bet right now? Let's get, I would say like a. Let's put a mid level dinner on this.

[Andy Greenwald]

So does that exist in Los Angeles?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I was just trying to say like, I guess that's like Sweet Green Army's on Sunset.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's now closed.

[Chris Ryan]

I would, I think she's back in season three.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well look, we are existing in a universe where as part of his attempt to get an Oscar nomination, Will Arnett is showing up on the Madison next season. Its first and so like showing up on a Taylor Sheridan show does not seem to be the same.

[Chris Ryan]

Because you're saying that and it's like, oh, she got nominated for an Oscar for the substance. She's back. She can do movies and whatever. But I think, I think she's coming back in the third season.

[Andy Greenwald]

I, I'm not going to bring logic to a Sheridan fight. Like that just doesn't make any sense.

[Chris Ryan]

Whatsoever in my world now.

[Andy Greenwald]

And up is fucking down dog. Like, like I was. And sometimes you can be surprised like I didn't know that the priority of a Texas police department would be to prosecute the man defending his fiance from a attempted rape. That is on camera like that seems to be first of all great to see Mackenzie Esten getting work after his appearance on the Pit last season. And I felt like even as he was saying some of the most horse shit lines I've ever heard in my life in a completely implausible characterization when he was allowed to speak when he wasn't being monologed at twice. Because this is the classic thing about the generosity of Taylor Sheridan. Rebecca got to walk in and just. It's like walking. It's like LeBron walking into a gym with 15 three foot high baskets.

[Chris Ryan]

I want to see Rebecca in court.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean it would be a remarkable performance. And they'd be like, ma', am, this is an Arby's drive thru dining here. Can you lower it?

[Chris Ryan]

Demi Moore was on season three. So Andy had to take Chris.

[Andy Greenwald]

He had to do. And then Tommy gets to come in and do the same scene where the. I guess he's the chief of police five times. Has to say. We're just trying to consider the facts here. Tommy. Yeah, it's all such aggravated performative nonsense that it's almost insulting that it's all in the service of the C story in a season finale that's never going to come up again. Do you know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

That's how shows go for seven years now though. This is the thing is that like, you have to. You just don't know what it was like deep into Yellowstone where you were like, what am I watching?

[Andy Greenwald]

I also where there would be like.

[Chris Ryan]

15 minute scenes of dudes that you've never seen before, like eating at the bunk house.

[Andy Greenwald]

The show's commitment to starting all scenes with an extreme close up of a woman in her underwear is remarkable. Like. Like, as you know, that's true as kids who grew up in the generation of like hoping Hot dog. The movie was on Cinemax. Like, who among us. I respect it. Do you know what I mean? Like, that was.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. If you had told young Andy, you never would have believed you.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's a worldview that I'm not immune to.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

That said, the fact that this episode has the framing of Cheyenne's completely just underwear posterior fixing the car and that's the framing of it. And then they do the same framing to introduce Ariana as her bruises are being investigated at the police station.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like the. You know, I respect the commitment to the bit. Even though I may disagree with the.

[Chris Ryan]

I think you. I appreciate you standing up for Ariana and Cheyenne. But like everybody's here because they want to hear you talk about Pagan again.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to come back to Pagan. I did want to say that I spent this whole season seeing the credit for Stephen Kay being like, oh, like I feel like that's interesting. Did.

[Chris Ryan]

He must be like John Ford.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I thought he was like. Like there was something about that name that made me think that like he directed the sequel to Elizabeth that Shekhar Kapoor didn't get around to doing. Like he was just some like, oh, he's a British guy who's done a bunch of stuff Yeoman like work like this generation's Taylor Hackford who's just like. And then you Google him. And I learned that he looks like a pirate. Well. Or he looks like he. He looks like late period Motley Crue.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, and he's married to Piper Paramount and I guess he's directed tons of Yellowstone and was an actor and.

[Chris Ryan]

Piper Perabo was on Yellowstone.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it really is all in the family. Which I appreciate. I wouldn't want. You know, I've spent a lot of time in England recently. I wouldn't want someone fresh off the boat like the reverse me walking onto the set of the show. You want to talk about Pagan?

[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk about Pagan.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Pagan redemption arc. You have a little bit of a look at this face. You feel like maybe I jumped the gun.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's hear it. Let's just. What did you think?

[Andy Greenwald]

Violence?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I didn't think that that was where it was gonna get left.

[Andy Greenwald]

Them as good friends understanding each other.

[Chris Ryan]

No, those two as being like incredible adversaries and just like taking down gender non binary people a peg.

[Andy Greenwald]

You think that you were saying this is an argument for getting to know each other a little bit more, working together just across the aisle, taping each other up.

[Chris Ryan]

You and me were not so different ahead of time.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was curious about Ainsley, who has spent a season and a half in just full on preparation for the rigors of cheerleading.

[Chris Ryan]

Because, you know, these two seasons only take place over like six weeks.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm just.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you know that?

[Andy Greenwald]

No. I felt like it's been years. Like, it's certainly been years. For me, this has been six weeks.

[Chris Ryan]

In terms of their. Of the like the time. The time that has elapsed in between. Cause she's like, my husband died two weeks ago. I'm not going to lose this company.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's wild, dude. Ainsley did seem really surprised by the rigors of a professional sporting program. So it was good that Pagan was there to tape up her ankles ahead of time.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. If Ainsley had been working on her ankles instead of her tan all summer, maybe she would have been a little bit more ready for cheerleading.

[Andy Greenwald]

She hadn't been so distraught by the aromas of ferret that she broke her lifelong margarita fest.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like that sugar is corroding.

[Andy Greenwald]

A minute on the lips, a lifetime on the ankles is what they say. I thought it was nice that they could be friends. I thought it was nice that Pagan likes music. Who do they like? Lainey Wilson. I think that the correct takeaway here.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder if Ainsley and Pagan let that Zach Brian rip after everything.

[Andy Greenwald]

You like this new record, huh? Yeah. I'll check it out. The be. It's just. It's just layer. It's like a. It's like a. A peasant bed.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think you're gonna like it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Tournament at Game of Night of the Seven Kingdoms. It's just layers of straw after another to support the initial arguments. So the Pagan Ainsley collision where. Where Pagan is basically like chatgpt. Tell me what Megan Kelly said last week and let me just embody it. That was the entire character. Yeah. This week he's like, nuance. Let me have three dipshits from high school being like, hey, take them out or whatever. And then. And then she's like, you guys have little dicks. And they're like, well, we don't. We watch hot dog together all the time. Like, okay, I guess it balances out and more I'm the fool D Big, broad strokes. The most frustrating thing about the show isn't the borderline incompetent writing and the insulting gender politics. It's the fact that every so often it drives near a good television show and you can feel the contours of it. And thus doing the Sterling Cooper Draper price thing that industry also did is the right move to get all of the characters that we have built empathy equity with over the course of now two seasons into the same place, into the same business. Not driving in opposite directions from each other all the time. Makes sense. Now, Rebecca, who has proven herself to be relatively risk averse up to this point, her willingness to just throw her entire professional career in with this group of dipshits is wild.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think that Nate made a bit of a professional mistake there?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. What is?

[Chris Ryan]

Kami offers him interim president.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Tommy makes him treasurer 100%.

[Andy Greenwald]

He fumbled the bag. He lives in someone's guest room.

[Chris Ryan]

And does everybody get the same equity stake regardless of their just Boston is workers?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I don't think management shares in the spoils, you know.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, you don't think so?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I don't. Now, we don't know what kind of pay package treasurer comes with, but I think of a man of Nate's age and stature. I feel like president and then like a golden parachute makes a lot more sense.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

He could maybe have his own apartment one day, you know, move to Dallas or move to where he actually works.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also feel frustrated that.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, because Rebecca doesn't know anything about oil drilling really. I mean, maybe she doesn't need to, but like she has to have her boyfriend explain how looking for natural gas in the Gulf works and stuff like that. But she is made COO of a gas ctt Oil and gas.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also want to say that the defining feature of Tommy's life coming out of season one is.

[Chris Ryan]

But I guess Tommy took a demotion as well.

[Andy Greenwald]

He did, but that was for family. That was because he wanted to put an 82 year old who cannot navigate a wooden chair successfully in charge of drilling. Like, look, I am all for. And soon, hopefully, will be the beneficiary of a push to include elders in the workplace place. Like, we are grateful that anyone's listening at all at this point, but I. I do think that maybe the general direction of the country has suggested that it's time to turn the page on baby boomers. Yeah. Maybe. Could be wrong. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So when we get to this time this year. Yeah, I guess, because it. I think they are on the same track of they're going to start shooting in the spring and. And have it up in the late fall.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think you'll have a return engagement with Landman season three?

[Andy Greenwald]

You have to explain to me, like, what. You know, there's, like, soft asks and then there's harder asks in terms of my continued participation in this podcast, and I'm well aware of it, and I like to navigate the politics as well as anyone. Yeah. You know, so you tell me.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

You tell me.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll wait for that season three trailer drop and the casting announcements and stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

A year ago, though, so the defining trade hallmark of Tommy's life was, I will not be in business with the Mexican cartels.

[Chris Ryan]

And now he's like, well, I mean, it was. He's finally getting back on the casino floor. You know, he's finally taken a spin at the big roulette wheel at the.

[Andy Greenwald]

At the young age of 70. One thing that I do respect, and we can move on from this, but I did want to get your opinion on this. One thing that I do like about the show, and maybe this is just a hallmark of television in general, you know, in which I'm sure people have noticed, like, no one ever says goodbye on a telephone call in TV or movies because that's just extra dialogue, and it's a waste. So we move on. When Tommy has his power lunch to make his pitch to Bob, as soon as Bob makes it clear that, like, he would hire him, he just stands up and leaves. Yeah. Have you ever done that? Whether you do that at Arby's?

[Chris Ryan]

I've never done that because I want to.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to try all lunch meetings. You know, you have to make small talk for a while.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, what I do do sometimes is I think I have a shorter clock than most people. Is that like. Like, we get to the end of a dinner, and some people like to linger. I'm not a big lingerer at a restaurant table.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to say, as someone who's dined with you, your physical performance at the end of meals makes that clear. When it's time.

[Chris Ryan]

It's okay if I say it? I don't like it when you say it.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm just saying when it's time for you to go, you go. Okay. You know, there starts to be some movement. There's a little bit of, like. There's a little bit of watch looking, you know, interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

What else do you want to tell me about myself?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's the same thing that you do when I bring up how I recently completed Effingers, an 800 page book published by New York Review of Books, thanks to Kaya. You want to do our sports minute?

[Chris Ryan]

Not really. We've been here for a really long time. Thanks to Kai, we will be back on Thursday with the Pit. Maybe some movie talk.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, sentimental value, that's the movie of the year.

[Chris Ryan]

Those sentimental values eclipsed Marty Supreme.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Wow. Yeah. Like easily. Great. You know how I am a sucker for a multi generational family story set in Europe.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's wrap there.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios. Send help from the twisted mind of Sam Raimi, director of the Evil Dead and Drag Me to hell starring Rachel McAdams and Dylan O'. Brien. I like both of them. Comes a new film that begs the question, what would you do if you were stuck on an island with your terrible Boss in paradise? HR can't hear you scream. Only in theaters in 3D January 30th. Get tickets now.