ABC Suspends Jimmy Kimmel, Why You Should Check Out Netflix’s ‘Black Rabbit’, and ‘Alien: Earth’ Episode 7

Summary

The Watch — September 18, 2025

Hosts: Chris Ryan & Andy Greenwald
Main Topics: Jimmy Kimmel ABC Suspension, Netflix’s ‘Black Rabbit’, ‘Alien: Earth’ Episode 7, Robert Redford’s Legacy, TV Industry Insights

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Andy and Chris dig into the explosive media controversy surrounding ABC’s indefinite suspension of Jimmy Kimmel, discuss the broader ramifications for free speech and media consolidation, remember Robert Redford’s cultural legacy, break down the latest episode of FX’s Alien: Earth, and share their early takes on Netflix's new series Black Rabbit starring Jude Law and Jason Bateman. Their banter navigates industry politics, the state of TV criticism, and what makes for authentic storytelling in the streaming age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ABC Suspends Jimmy Kimmel (02:00–13:00)

Context:

• Jimmy Kimmel’s late night show pulled from ABC after controversial remarks about Charlie Kirk.
• Uncertainty lingers as Disney (ABC’s parent company) hasn't issued a statement beyond a brief comment.
• Significant reaction from media stakeholders; affiliate stations like Nexstar and Sinclair dropped the show.

Discussion Highlights:

• Andy: "On a personal and professional level, I think this absolutely sucks. It is deeply unfair, if not borderline corrupt. And it is a tragedy anytime people lose their jobs, whether it's for one day, five days, or forever." (05:21)
• Chris notes the broader industry context: media mergers, government pressure, and the chilling effect on speech.
• The hosts emphasize that the real threat is not just “cancel culture” but the unchecked power of massive corporations and their government dependencies.

Memorable Quote:

• “There is a hotter spotlight at the moment because of the rashness of these actions and also again, the supremely bad faith in which all of this has been carried out. …The deeper story that will far outlive this presidency is the consolidation of media in the hands of a few billionaires. That's ongoing no matter what.” — Andy (09:25)

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2. Robert Redford’s Legacy (12:41–18:43)

Context:

• Robert Redford’s death prompts reflection on his artistic and cultural impact.

Discussion Highlights:

• Chris: Shares admiration for Redford’s use of fame to support new filmmakers and champion the art form’s continuity.
• Andy: Notes Redford’s sense of community, collaborative spirit, and work founding Sundance.
• Both reminisce about favorite Redford performances; Andy names Sneakers as a “personal canon” film.

Memorable Moment:

• “He was from the west coast, but a lot of his peers and contemporaries came up in the sort of collectivist theater movement in New York… The biggest takeaway from that would be the sense of community. That creativity does not come necessarily from an actor sitting alone … you build things together collectively from the ground up.” — Andy (14:42)

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3. TV Industry & Social Media Banter (19:27–23:58)

• The hosts riff on the changing landscape of TV criticism and the tricky realities of pod/video content in the social age.
• They joke about their social clips “breaking containment” when there are hot takes or rants, with Chris remarking: “There's a bit of Internet parlance where something breaks containment. And basically it was…” (23:06)

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4. The Summer I Turned Pretty Finale & The Morning Show (24:31–32:38)

• Brief digression into the finale of The Summer I Turned Pretty and the business of extending hit series with movie epilogues, likening it to Downton Abbey and how audiences simply want to stay with characters.
• Chris offers a comical summary of the jam-packed, high-gloss universe of The Morning Show Season 4: “Literally, there are no non-famous people in this show anymore. If they need someone to be someone's agent, it's Will Arnett…” (28:26)

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5. Alien: Earth Episode 7 “Emergence” (34:06–58:45)

Plot & Structure Critique (34:25–43:13)

• Chris laments the show’s logic holes and stilted characters, making him a “hall monitor” rather than an invested viewer.
  • “If the characters aren't exhibiting any consistent kind of behavior that reaches me ... then you really are kind of dependent on the show making some kind of sense.” (35:49)
• Andy: “The show only works if its central conceit delivers ... what does it mean to be human?” (39:16)
• They agree the emotional moments often fall flat, despite a few affecting scenes.

Notable Quotes:

• “The high security lab is the most trafficked place and the most used set in the show. It is equivalent to the break room with the vending machines on The Office.” — Andy (37:39)
• On synth characters’ inconsistency, Chris: “Wouldn't you be, like, put those three [hybrids] in the lab and up their juice?” (45:06)
• On action sequences, Andy remarks the show is “asking a few too many things to hold together.” (46:16)

Memorable Moment:
Andy envisions a whimsical ending:
“I would like it to be Wendy at a cafe some years in the future. And she looks at another table in the cafe and she sees the xenomorph there and he's just having lunch … enjoying the fruits of Earth cafe culture.” (57:54)

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6. Black Rabbit (58:55–76:44)

Premise:
Eight-episode Netflix series starring Jason Bateman and Jude Law as embattled NYC brothers, mixing restaurant-world melodrama with crime intrigue.

Early Reactions:

• Chris is nostalgic for the “going out in New York” atmosphere and drawn to Bateman/Law’s performances.
• Andy critiques the formulaic structure (framing device flash-forward, ‘one month earlier’ trope), but acknowledges its effectiveness for Netflix binging culture.
  • “There was something about the first 15 minutes of the show that I was like, oh, this is super pre-woke television ... the show starts with a man looking in a mirror … then it stops and says, one month earlier.” (65:23–66:14)
• Both hosts see echoes of Ozark, Bloodline, and earlier prestige TV dramas; Andy finds it slightly “phony baloney,” lacking the authenticity and humor of, say, Task.
  • “When I watched the first two episodes of Black Rabbit, I felt that there was a lot of authenticity into the movies Jason Bateman and everyone else had watched to make the show.” (69:21)

Industry Insight:
They discuss the industry-wide move to add “mystery box” elements to otherwise straightforward dramas—producers feel “you need to have, like, who’s robbing the Black Rabbit?” to hook streaming audiences (74:49).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On media consolidation:
  “The deeper story that will far outlive this presidency is the consolidation of media in the hands of a few billionaires. That's ongoing no matter what.” — Andy (09:25)

• On Robert Redford’s legacy:
  “He tried to use a lot of his fame and the capital accrued from that, I think, to help other people.” — Chris (14:15)

• On authentic vs. derivative TV:
  “When I watched the first two episodes of Black Rabbit, I felt that there was a lot of authenticity into the movies Jason Bateman and everyone else had watched to make the show.” — Andy (69:21)

• On flash-forward tropes:
  “Maybe just start where the story ought to start and see how it flows from there.” — Andy (67:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Jimmy Kimmel suspension & media power: 02:00–13:00
• Remembering Robert Redford: 12:41–18:43
• TV industry, social media banter: 19:27–23:58
• Summer I Turned Pretty / Morning Show: 24:31–32:38
• Alien: Earth, Episode 7 breakdown: 34:06–58:45
• Black Rabbit (Netflix) review: 58:55–76:44

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Summary Tone & Takeaways

The episode flows with Andy and Chris’s typical blend of incisive media critique, wry observations, and pop culture savviness. Their discussion of Kimmel’s suspension anchors the episode in urgent industry politics, while reflections on Redford and evaluations of Alien: Earth and Black Rabbit probe the evolving standards of TV storytelling. Listeners are left with sharp industry insights, strong recommendations, and the sense that, even as TV and culture face uncertain futures, there are always new stories—and old mistakes—to dissect every week.

Transcript

[Chris Rye]

This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice? Find out on September 19th in the new Jordan Peele produced horror film Him Only in theaters, starring Marlon Wayans as the greatest football player of all time and Tyreek Withers as his up and coming protege. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkeypaw Productions, Never Meet yout Idols. Him hits theaters September 19th. This episode is brought to you by Diet Coke. You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh? An ice cold Diet Coke isn't just just a break.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's your chance to catch your breath.

[Chris Rye]

And savor a moment that's all about you. Always refreshing. Still the same great taste. Diet Coke make time for you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Time.

[Chris Rye]

Pain, sports to have to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Rye]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Rye and I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, he also remembers Mars Barr. It's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

I do. You're talking Black Rabbit.

[Chris Rye]

I'm talking Black Rabbit on Netflix. I'm talking Alien Earth on fx. We might discuss the legacy of the great Robert Redford. Oh, yeah, and obviously we have to address the Jimmy Kimmel stuff. Greenwald, welcome to the show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you. I also have some other things on my personal.

[Chris Rye]

I got some other things on my docket too.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have a shadow docket like all the great thought leaders in America like Anton and Scalia. You signed. But opinions are strong man.

[Chris Rye]

Andy, great to see you. Thursday, we're recording this at 10:57. You can email us at the watch Spotify.com you can follow us at the watch underscore, watchpod underscore on Instagram and you can watch us on YouTube, bringer-tv or on Spotify where we're hope you list. We hope you listen to this podcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

You can watch us last night walking out of Dodger Stadium with our tails between our legs. Couple of losers.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. Before it even ended, we gave up. We quit. Well, we wanted to be traffic.

[Andy Greenwald]

We saw where it was going. We won the series. It's all right.

[Chris Rye]

Greenwall, great to see you. I mentioned that it was 1057 because obviously the Jimmy Kimmel story is quickly evolving and I just wanted to kind of timestamp our reactions and also the reporting that's come out about it, which is a little on one hand it's incredibly clear what happened and on the other hand it's a little murky because as of this Recording Bob Iger. And there's been an ABC statement, but there has not been a corporate Disney statement. Bob Iger has not done an interview about this to my knowledge. So I'll just sort of set this scene by reading from the Wall Street.

[Andy Greenwald]

Journal what that keeps you right in your morning routine.

[Chris Rye]

I have a sub. Must be nice.

[Andy Greenwald]

Truly.

[Chris Rye]

Disney said it pulled Jimmy Kimmel's show off ABC in the wake of remarks the late night host made about the killing of conservative activist Charlie Kirk. Jimmy Kimmel Live will be preempted indefinitely, an ABC spokesman said on Wednesday. The suspension began with Wednesday's planned broadcast. While no return date had been set, Disney was monitoring the situation. Situation and saw a path to the show potentially returning in the next several days, according to a person familiar with the situation.

[Andy Greenwald]

Corporate bravery at its finest.

[Chris Rye]

Federal Communications Commission Chairman Brendan Carr said in an interview on CNBC Thursday that Kimmel appeared to directly mislead the American public, quote, unquote, about Kirk's murder. During an interview with conservative political podcaster Benny Johnson on Wednesday, Carr suggested that the FCC could take action against the broadcast licenses of APC owned stations. Owners of some ABC TV stations, including large broadcasters nextstar Media Group and Sinclair, told the network they were dropping the show.

[Andy Greenwald]

So there's so much good faith in all this, it's almost hard to parse. Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

So how should we talk about this? Because obviously there is like a personal reaction. There is also, like, the lens through which we usually talk about things which is within the realm of like, tv, movies, the entertainment industry, the culture industry.

[Andy Greenwald]

By the way, what has the Austin standup community have to say about this? Because I believe they.

[Chris Rye]

That's my shadow docket.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. I believe en masse. They voted against cancel culture. And I just am dying to hear.

[Chris Rye]

Next time I go to the mothership, I'll let you know I have not actually been in the mothership. I don't even want to get into this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. I'm just noting with interest the sweatshirt color you're wearing today. That's all. That's all I'm saying.

[Chris Rye]

Shout out to Touche Amore. That's the sweatshirt I'm wearing. Shout out to Jeremy, make America again. Anyway, I thought we could start with the conversation about this as a TV story. Okay. Which may seem fun, far down the list of the sort of most important things happening.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I mean, there's. I don't know if it is just a TV story, to be honest with you.

[Chris Rye]

I don't think it is.

[Andy Greenwald]

But like Jimmy Kimmel, who Is the consummate broadcaster. Like, he's very, very, very good at this. He's good at hosting the Oscars, he's good at hosting his own show. He has been. How long has that show been on? 24 years, I believe.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, Bill moved out here to do it.

[Andy Greenwald]

So in a way, thank you, Jimmy, for the trickle. That does work, by the way. Trickle down economics. You know, I think we both have had personal interactions with him before and he's a lovely guy in person.

[Chris Rye]

Johnson, Sal. Yes, we have connections to the show.

[Andy Greenwald]

On a personal and professional level. I think this absolutely sucks. It is deeply unfair, if not borderline corrupt. And it is a tragedy anytime people lose their jobs, whether it's for one day, five days, or forever. And the show being a bedrock of la, has employed hundreds of people for a very long time.

[Chris Rye]

And it's worth mentioning still records its nightly show or its weeknight nightly show in the center of Hollywood.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that there is a absolute, you know, bad faith, insane, snowflake political story to be, to be told here. That's not generally where we get to go with our, with our coverage, usually just only in sort of, you know, little sour asides to each other at the beginning or end. So I think for me, you know, the bigger story isn't just the fast forward button being hit on what was an inevitable degradation of late night as we have known it for our whole lives. That's sort of the framing of the Colbert story. Even though I think in many ways they are part of the same story. As much as that 11:30 hour with, with light politics monologue, celebrity guests promoting movies and some comedic bits that now get chopped up and enjoyed on YouTube the next day. As much as that's part of the framework of our day. Even though you and I don't really stay up that late anymore, let alone watch these shows, it does feel very significant to see them being taken off the air, being canceled, being overlooked, being piled upon and removed from our lives. That is very intense and surprising. Particularly, I mean, even though I think before any of these cancellations and suspension started, I think that if we had had a conversation about the future of late night, I don't think we would have said it's white men in their 50s talking into microphones at 11:30. It's white men in their 50s talking to microphones at 10:47 in the morning. Right. The way God intended it. Anyway. So that's the TV part of it. Right. I think the more deeply, deeply chilling aspect of the story for us today and going forward is a larger story about the chilling and corrupting effects of media consolidation.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And what happens when everything is owned by two to nine billionaires who want to accrue more billions and in order to extract money from their properties, not only need to not only make, you know, very often callous decisions about staffing, about hiring, about employment, also must apparently bend the knee to whomever in Washington controls their opportunities to expand their already enormous bottom line. Which is really the story here, far beyond the, you know, salacious truth, social chatter about, like standing up for the hurt feelings or a fallen friend.

[Chris Rye]

This is going to be cast as a free speech story. I suppose it should be. I think that I've probably reached the end of the road. Doing what about Back and forth or reading what about Back and Forth, you know, online about cancel. Cancel culture or suppression of information and stuff like that. And you can just. We just are going back and back and back. I think it's worth noting that Nexar, who is one of the, one of the network of affiliates that, that dropped Jimmy this week, is also looking to buy another collection of affiliate stations and do a merger. And I think that there is a. A feeling right now that I, I would say is pretty accurate that you need to have the tacit endorsement or explicit endorsement of the federal government to pull off a merger like that. And I'm not saying that it's quid pro quo, but I'm not, not saying that. I guess, you know, I mean, I don't. It's hard to look at the way that society is functioning right now and think of it as anything other than, you know, kleptocracy. Yeah, kleptocracy and deeply corrupt. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, look, there's a hotter spotlight at the moment because of the rashness of these actions and also again, the supremely bad faith in which all of this has been carried out. And this is what happens when the person who is actually pulling the strings is a sensitive snowflake, right. And can't have feelings hurt. And thus everyone is quick to make it about that. The deeper story that will far outlive this presidency is the consolidation of media in the hands of a few billionaires. That's ongoing no matter what. Now, the flames might not reach as high because, for example, we're talking about this under the few days on from word getting out that David Ellison, fresh off his takeover of Paramount, would like to also add Warner, Warner Brothers, WarnerMedia to his portfolio, thus making Paramount+ HBO with Showtime or whatever it might Be that would be a story regardless of who was in the White House. And I haven't seen much evidence of either party, frankly, stopping things like that from happening or understanding the trickle down effects of that. Now, you know, in the short term, what could happen if he tries to do it in the next few months? Well, that might be it for South Park. Right. Like any more times you give them, you give a little bit, they're going to take more. That's actually, as we learn in Black Rabbit, that's how it works when you're in debt to someone. Juice is running, you know, but the deeper story about who controls the stories that we get to tell or the entertainment that we get to enjoy, it's very, very dark. It's very, very disturbing.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, I say watch this space. Not because I don't want to talk about this anymore, but I think that this is just chapter five in a long, long book. And, you know, you talked about David Ellison's takeover of Paramount, his rumored attempts or interest in buying Warner Brothers Discovery. His father, Larry Ellison, is aiming to take a large stake in the sale of TikTok.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yes, that's convenient.

[Chris Rye]

You know, I mean, this is just, this is like a. I mean, this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is what happened when the Soviet Union collapsed. Right. Like, everybody got a taste. But in defense of that country, things worked out great for them.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, we got Chelsea Football Club, you know, we soccer appreciators, ball knowers. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just this is obviously a dark and challenging and tumultuous time. It feels, it feels particularly scary, I think, even when the most cynical. Oh, but guardrails. People among us realize that. You know, I think there was a thought that like, well, everything will keep chugging along because long as. Because Wall street really rules the roost. Right. And if anything runs afoul of profits or shareholder value, then this whole misbegotten project will collapse. Yeah, I don't know if that's the case because the people who control Wall street seem pretty psyched with what they're able to do now.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And turns out that might not have been the best guardrail, but, you know, at least Tim Cook had to sit there and watch the Pit win. You know what I mean? We gotta take the victories where we can.

[Chris Rye]

One of the major stories that came out this week that kind of got blown off the front pages or the, the main, main feeds of, of people.

[Andy Greenwald]

Out there is season three Renewal.

[Chris Rye]

Robert Redford passed away.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm sorry. I think that the Ringer podcast could contain multitudes.

[Chris Rye]

The Ringer Podcast Network will probably be diving deep into Robert Redford's life work legacy. I just wanted to mention it and also mention my deep affection for the movies that he made and also a lot of what he stood for. Yeah. And his values. It's kind of strange, you know, he's. He was seven years older than my mom, and I think that generation of people has come in for a lot of criticism recently for staying in their homes, you know, and all that. But I do have to say that, like, there, there, I. I'm starting to get a little bit more romantic about some of the values that, like, people like Redford stood for. Obviously was just a giant movie star, but tried to use a lot of his fame and the capital accrued from that, I think, to help other people. Some of the memorials about him, like, you reposted Sterling Harjo's anecdote about him. I thought that was incredible. I know that, like, I read this old interview with Redford where he's just talking about, like, working on the Fruitvale Station script with Ryan Coogler and how, like, inspiring it is to, like, you know, be a part of the early days of someone's career.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And I think he felt a real sense of responsibility for the continuation of the art form of filmmaking.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

As much as the business of filmmaking. And, you know, Sundance is a really interesting story over the course of its. Of its lifespan, but I think that it's pretty easy to locate Redford as a really positive force in American culture over the course of his life. And tilt me missed.

[Andy Greenwald]

I love that idea of the art form of filmmaking as more than where you hang the lights and where you point the cameras. Because he was from the west coast, but a lot of his peers and contemporaries came up in, like, the Actors Studio and a sort of collectivist theater movement in New York that explained certain ways on how you build character, how you are present in the scene, how you work with others. The biggest takeaway from that would be the sense of community. Right. That creativity does not come necessarily from an actor sitting alone, running a monologue in a trailer, or a screenwriter being like, but wait, when do we reveal what thunderbolts really means? More that you build things together collectively from the ground up. And I think that aspect of Sundance has been almost overlooked as it became famous for the channel, the film festival, the aesthetic, the idea that year after year over the last few decades, and he was just there, right? Greeting people who came in with scripts, with projects, giving support, writing little notes, being like, I enjoyed this Film like actually showing up and not just like dropping a bag of cash and building a little amphitheater and walking away. This was the work of the last few years. In addition to being like, I think even for us. Right. Like, we grew up slightly. We became movie aware slightly past his like 70s golden run.

[Chris Rye]

To me, like, the first Robert Redford movie is like the natural.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the first movie. I saw it too. But I will never forget the way my mom talked about Robert Redford walking into the movie about like my takeaway was like, this is what a man should be. And I have failed. However, one day I too will. No, but like, both in terms of like his looks, his charisma, but also the way a movie hung on his shoulders like a well fitting suit.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was very, very, very memorable. And the fact that he was good for so many decades, like I made a thunderbolt joke. But he was really good in Captain America. He was having a fun time being in Endgame even just a few years ago, reprising the role and reprising that scene. Do you have a, like Mount Rushmore of Red.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, they're not that complicated. It's Three Days of the Condors, the Sting, all the President's Men. Of a more recent one, I would say Spy Game.

[Andy Greenwald]

Underrated.

[Chris Rye]

But you know, I would highly recommend. If you haven't. If you're listening to this and you've never checked this book out, Adventures in the Screen Trade, which is William Goldman's really dazzling, candid, witty tour through some of his. He's a famous screenwriter, like the late William Goldman, but he wrote about like his sort of his career in getting into movies and writing scripts and working with actors and all of his sort of observations about that. He had some mixed experiences with Robert Redford. Yeah. But writes very eloquently about Redford's participation in a project. Made it from an idea to a movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And when you look at Redford's career, especially. Especially the 70s, but even I think to some extent, some of the stuff he did in the 80s and some of the things he did as a director, that's a guy who used his star power to make really interesting stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And we could use more. More people like that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I just give a personal shout out to two? For me, it's. It's the Hot Rock, which is just an incredible 70s caper based on a Donald Westlake novel. Him, George Siegel, like, at his most, like, Swagged Out. Swagged out and charming. And then maybe my favorite film of all time is Sneakers, which is that.

[Chris Rye]

Really your favorite film of all time? Or you just say.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm just saying that, like, it's in my. It is in my personal canon. It is in my top 10 of, like, movies that I just love on a molecular level. It makes me happy. I want more movies, more TV shows, more art to feel like that movie. I feel like it's sleepy, appreciated, but not necessarily as celebrated.

[Chris Rye]

I think there's a Sneakers hive out there, but there should be bigger.

[Andy Greenwald]

There should be more movies like that. It's about a ragtag group of, like, proto hackers. Like, kind of before hacking was hacking, like, people who are hired.

[Chris Rye]

And Redford plays like, a Weather Underground kind of guy who has now tried to come up with a new identity and is computer security.

[Andy Greenwald]

He has a ragtag group with. Featuring Sidney Poitier, River Phoenix, Dan Aykroyd, David Strathearn. And it's like they get hired to test the security of your company, and then they get mixed up with the NSA that might not be the nsa. And turns out there are too many secrets. Not to spoil it, but, like, watching him and Poitier in that movie, it's awesome.

[Chris Rye]

Awesome. Uh, yeah. There will probably be a lot of really cool stuff, hopefully over the next couple of weeks on the. On the Pod network about Redford.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I didn't see this because I didn't stick with the show, but apparently he did make a cameo last season on Dark Winds. The. Oh, yeah, the. The very good. We just didn't stick with it, I think Native American cop show that he was a producer on. Um, before we turn to our TV business today, can I just make one. Just, like, one procedural, like, how we run. How we run things. Comment?

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Kai's ready. Kai's mic is on. So we love doing this podcast. And I think we've adapted well towards the new reality of Vertical Video and you know, and really having to, like, put our face where our mouth is in terms of our opinions and our takes.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

One thing that I definitely did not understand fully going in was how much our lives and our online careers are in the hands of Kai McMullen over here. We watch football together this weekend, Chris, and a few times we made references to poor quarterbacks throwing hospital balls across the middle of the field, where the receivers are like, I guess I gotta go.

[Chris Rye]

Potentially.

[Andy Greenwald]

I do, too. I have noticed a trend that anytime I raise my voice slightly and perhaps I'm critical in ways that I have been in the past. On the podcast, Old Kaya Scissorhands over here is ready. Ready to just hang me out to dry on a slant route against Fred Warner.

[Chris Rye]

So I have to say the thing that she doesn't do is kill you with the caption because she could do another all caps unhinged. That's true rant. So are you saying Andy Greenwald about his arch nemesis, Nate Bargazi?

[Andy Greenwald]

I know with interest that the first 15 seconds of my monologue in which I said I love Nate Burgetzi and watch all of his comedy specials regularly. Boring. This box is fueled by hatred and vitriol.

[Chris Rye]

How am I supposed to know that Nate Bargazzi has stands like that now?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know what he has because I have not. Nor will I for my own well being.

[Chris Rye]

What if.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look at the 600 comments.

[Chris Rye]

600 people being like, I walk into the fire with you, brother. You've just said what I've always felt.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just not the way it works. So yesterday. So since we had a really. I thought we had a good podcast on Monday. We had a fun bit where you were like, what would happen if we went into Lefty's taproom?

[Chris Rye]

The.

[Andy Greenwald]

The hangout, the watering hole of the dark hearts motorcycle gang? Fun back and forth. I did, I did my character where I'm a bit of a pris and I was like, let's have some rice lagers. And everybody laughed. 18.4 thousand views. Respectable. Right? I say that this was a disaster of an award show. We are approaching 600,000 views.

[Chris Rye]

The only clip subscribe man to come.

[Andy Greenwald]

Close is the five seconds where I was like, honest. Obviously Oasis wasn't really good of a live band and then the logger lads found that. So I'm just saying just people like conflict. They like. I don't think people, most people are not on social media to like, I.

[Chris Rye]

Don'T know, to agree. To agree.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it's true. It's just interesting. I'm learning something that I think most people listening probably know. But I would say the body politic of America has learned too late, which is that there is just different audiences out there. And you know, we had a really good podcast. I thought we made some good comments and some insights on task everything that I've monitored my sources in the five eyes community, crickets. Like, I haven't seen anyone be like, oh, it was really thoughtful.

[Chris Rye]

But how would they communicate that to you?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, you get emails. I don't know. All I know is that I said one thing which I stand by because that award show sucked over half a million people, I feel. Listen.

[Chris Rye]

See, she's threatening another unhinged rant by Andy Gruber. There's a bit of Internet parlance where something breaks containment.

[Andy Greenwald]

And basically it was. By the way, that should also be alien earth parlance. But go.

[Chris Rye]

They don't know. But they don't know who you are. They're just like, who's this asshole talking about my favorite comedian?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's fair.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

A fellow fan.

[Chris Rye]

Do you see how. Have you noticed how I'm kind of like the dude in World War I trench warfare who's like, we'll take this hill. And then like you go over the. You go over the top. Hurt my hamstring. Have I noticed it's never me who's doing the rants. I got got with James Cameron though.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but that was. I don't know that that felt. It felt like you had the power.

[Chris Rye]

There was an initial layer of hell yeah, brother, I walk with you anywhere, cr. And then it was. And then it turned into like, wait, who is this asshole? He hasn't even seen the movies. Right, So I get it, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, I just feel like what's lost? I just feel like we've lost some nuance maybe in this country.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that possible? Is that crazy? Don't clip that. You know, don't get me in trouble.

[Chris Rye]

She's just clipping you calling his kleptocracy and then me being like, o.

[Andy Greenwald]

You think I'm just going to stitch together a few of your Kimmel stuff.

[Chris Rye]

And then I think we'll be good.

[Andy Greenwald]

For a couple weeks. I just, I'll plan the wedding for free now, like whatever. We work for her.

[Chris Rye]

Speaking of weddings, did you have anything else non show related that you wanted to discuss on your shadow docket?

[Andy Greenwald]

No. No. You can move on.

[Chris Rye]

The finale of the Summer I Turned Pretty occurred this week.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh yes.

[Chris Rye]

I bring this up for a couple of reasons. At wedding, you know, obviously was a major element of the third season. Spoilers for the end of this if you haven't.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is Kaya caught up, consumed?

[Chris Rye]

She hasn't, but she knows what happens.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. Just don't piss her off.

[Chris Rye]

And almost immediately after this show aired, which I have, I have my thoughts about the finale. I don't really know if I want to, you know, if you need to hear them. It was, it was, I thought well done to a point. When it is like when there is a central relationship in a show that every single person and who's watching is like consumed by. I just don't need to see Jer's pop up.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's a cook, I heard.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, the hottest chef in Boston.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, tallest. Tallest dwarf, but. All right, clip that. Kaya, you're on.

[Chris Rye]

But, you know, set in Paris, Conrad shows up. He confesses his love again to her.

[Andy Greenwald]

What's funny is you're acting like in my household.

[Chris Rye]

And she heisms him for a while.

[Andy Greenwald]

What day did this premiere Yesterday?

[Chris Rye]

It came out Tuesday at midnight or so Wednesday at midnight.

[Andy Greenwald]

So do you know when it was playing at my house?

[Chris Rye]

6:00Am 6:00am yes. That is. There's two. There are two wolves here. And you either stay up and I.

[Andy Greenwald]

Am the father of both of them.

[Chris Rye]

Or you get up early. But the interesting part is just that they announced very quickly after the finale aired that they are going to be making a movie epilogue. I guess this is probably good business for Amazon. I would say there's not a ton of ambiguity about how the show ended in terms of who she chose and what state their relationship is in. If I had to guess, this will probably be more of like, a fun reunion and like tying up loose ends, then it would be like something tragic and or dramatic happens. But I could be wrong.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you know what the. The comparison ought to be, I think, for this, sincerely, is Downton Abbey, because.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Downton Abbey as a franchise. Julius as a corrector.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

As a call. As a creator. I said creator, which is collector slash creator.

[Chris Rye]

In Trump's America, we're all creators.

[Andy Greenwald]

He found a way to somehow keep the balloon afloat, even though people just.

[Chris Rye]

Want to spend time with these people in the world.

[Andy Greenwald]

And so it seems like Jenny Han has a sense of like, we can just keep them hanging out. We can put a few more problems in front of them. Low stakes obstacles. And what did she say in the press release, like, the next chapter of their.

[Chris Rye]

She was like, there's one major life like Hallmark or life moment that we need to go through with Belly. And I was like, this is when she finds out that she's been an agent for Treadstone this entire time.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. I thought it was when Jair partners with his brother Jason Bateman, who's a bit of a ne' er do well, his other brother on a restaurant in lower Manhattan.

[Chris Rye]

Can I just recap a show I watched this week for you before we get to Alien and Black Rabbit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Watch more shows.

[Chris Rye]

I watched a show this week and I wanted to just describe the plot and see if it's something that might interest you. An Iranian nuclear scientist defects. A movie producer loses his Star actress on the day of shooting in the biggest stunt in his film, the TV rights to the Olympic Games are put into jeopardy and an environmental disaster strikes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Whoa.

[Chris Rye]

One guess. Just take a guess.

[Andy Greenwald]

The front page of the Wall Street Journal on Tuesday. No Sense 8 by the Wachowski siblings. Nope, I'm out of guesses.

[Chris Rye]

The morning show, season four.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hell yeah. I wondered if we were gonna be talking about it. Good use of the shadow docket. Good job.

[Chris Rye]

Possibly the most expensive show I've ever seen in my life. Now they are no longer even pretending to be, like, in someone's apartment. It's like gauzy, like, matte painting windows. Like, I think that they've probably consolidated some of the production of this, but there literally are no non famous people in this show anymore.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, it's just everyone's famous.

[Chris Rye]

If they need someone to be someone's agent, it's Will Arnett. If Marion Cotillard, who is in the show, needs a boyfriend, it's Aaron Pierre. You know, it's so Jennifer Aniston's father. It's out there. Jeremy Irons. It's fucking crazy, dude.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's so.

[Chris Rye]

That is just every time you check your phone.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Jeremy Irons is like, yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, oh, because of. It's an Apple phone. So you think Tim Cook somehow got through the Emmys?

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, I think so.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's wild. It does help me. It does track with my previously held opinion that everyone is behaving like it's last call at the money bar. Like, this is all ending soon, so we gotta get there quickly.

[Chris Rye]

But, like, I honestly admire them for being like, well, we could keep this as like a kind of soapy office drama about these two women who respect each other but are constantly like, rival. Like, are also rivals. And instead they're like, what has to happen is Alex Levy, who's Jennifer Aniston's character.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Needs to facilitate the defection of an Iranian nuclear scientist and his gymnast daughter. And it has to happen at Jennifer Aniston's TV studio interview.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you feel like there was a meeting of like, the local chapter of SAG or like, like the Broadway Actors alliance where they were like, great news, like, morning show is going to film in New York. And like, there was a moment when they thought it was going to be law and order for them where they were like, jennifer Aniston needs a father. And like, beloved. That guy character actor Peter Garrity was just like, papa's going to work one more time. Fly in. Jeremy Irons on a private yes. That's cool. The only other thing that I heard about this season was that I believe. Is this correct, that it said in 2024. But it's not about that. Like there's no election going on so far.

[Chris Rye]

It's about the Olympics and the Olympic coverage.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's keep focused. Casey Wasserman's thrilled. That's awesome.

[Chris Rye]

Paris Olympics.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I know, but he wants the story focused on the beautiful Olympic flame and how it goes from one location to another.

[Chris Rye]

Yes. I'm sure that the season will end with. With the Olympic flame arriving in Los Angeles.

[Andy Greenwald]

Tom Cruise brought it here.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Remember that? Yeah. It was a simpler time.

[Chris Rye]

Maybe he'll make an appearance on the morning show.

[Andy Greenwald]

You have done something in the past where you have like, you have a couple scratch off tickets that you can use and like one of them is to make me watch something and it.

[Chris Rye]

Has to do with nuclear scientists defecting.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I leaned in at that point. Yeah. But you, you used it for me to watch the January 6 episode of the Morning show.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

We'll monitor the situation. If you need me back on this for anything, I'm willing.

[Chris Rye]

I stay up later than Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's true.

[Chris Rye]

My wife and I have several shows that we watch together. Morning show is one of them. It just is a great conversation starter.

[Andy Greenwald]

Clearly. Look at us. Just look at, look at this banter. What do you think?

[Chris Rye]

Do you think that gymnast should have defected on television? Anyway, that's what I've been doing. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll talk about Alien Earth and Black Rabbit. This episode is brought to you by Pretty Litter. Living with more than one cat means you've got double the cuddles and double the litter duty. But Pretty Litter makes things so much easier. Not only does it control odors and lasts longer than other litter, it also keeps you ahead of health issues. The color changing crystals actually flag fluctuations in your cat's urine. How about that? Plus Pretty Litter ships free right to your door. So no heavy bags to carry and no last minute pet store runs right now. Save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy at prettylitter.com watch that's prettylitter.com watch to save 20% on your first order, get a free cat toy. Pre-comm/watch. Pretty Litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See cipher details. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice this September? Experience the horror event of the season, him, the new Jordan Peele produced horror film. It stars Marlon Wayans in a role of a lifetime as Isaiah White, the greatest football player of all time, AKA the Goat. Tyreek Withers plays Cameron Cade, a rising star quarterback who Isaiah takes on as his protege. As Cam's training accelerates, Isaiah's charisma shifts into something darker, sending Cam down a disorienting rabbit hole that may cost him more than he ever bargained for. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkeypaw Productions, Never Meet yout Idols, him hits theaters September 19th. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Got a car to sell, but no time to waste? Hop onto Carvana.com to get a real offer for your car in seconds. All you have to do is enter your license plate, answer a few quick questions, and if you accept the offer, Carvana will pay you as soon as you hand the keys over. They even offer same day pickup in many cities. Save your time, score some cash and sell your car the convenient way to Carvana. Pickup times vary. Fees may apply.

[Andy Greenwald]

This episode is brought to you by.

[Chris Rye]

The all new ESPN app. All of ESPN all in one place. Your home for the most live sports and best championship moments. It's the ultimate fan experience.

[Andy Greenwald]

Step up your game and get even.

[Chris Rye]

More than before with no annual contract required.

[Andy Greenwald]

Level up.

[Chris Rye]

For More on the ESPN app or at stream.espn.com sign up now. All right, buddy, dealer's choice. What do you want to do first?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I think we should do Alien because we've been talking about it and.

[Chris Rye]

Black Rabbit people may be in various places in the viewing since it came out last night.

[Andy Greenwald]

If you want to timestamp us, I don't think we're. I don't think Black Rabbit season one has reached summer I turned pretty finale status. It hasn't broken contain. Yeah, it's not BC as we say.

[Chris Rye]

Okay, so Alien Earth Episode seven. It's called Emergence. It was written by Noah Hawley and Marina Melnick and it was directed by Dana Gonzalez, Holly's oftentimes collaborator.

[Andy Greenwald]

DP yeah, let's do this.

[Chris Rye]

Let's start here. Why is this show making me such a hall monitor? Why am I such a narc about this? Because I I like to think I what I don't want is for all TV criticism to be pointing out logical flaws in plot. You know, be like, well, how would he do this? Or why would they do that. Or what's this, what's happening here? Like, this doesn't make any sense. Like, I don't think that's really a useful way to think about culture or art is just to constantly be nitpicking like that. And I think the reason why I do it with this show specifically is because I don't think that there are any like real people in it. Right. So if the characters aren't exhibiting any consistent kind of behavior that reaches me or touches me or moves me or I connect with, then you really are kind of dependent on the show making some kind of sense. Now, this was the penultimate episode. There could be reveals in the finale next week that explain some things. I think that I was holding on hope that onto hope that the Timothy Olyphant character, Kirsch, was somehow orchestrating some of this was a double agent.

[Andy Greenwald]

And he could be sticky. He's a little slippery.

[Chris Rye]

He's still slippery. He could be working for himself. But I think that the reason why, when I see the first scene of this episode and it's somehow occurred that slightly, one of the young synths has hybrids. Hybrids has dragged a adult man, comatose body of. Of Arthur with a face hugger on it through a ventilation shaft. I supposedly down a hallway and into his room. And without showing like, oh, is there anybody in the hallway? Like, was he not monitored? I guess at this point now Kirsch is kind of like consolidating all of the observation of these people and deciding when to say something went wrong. But there's that there's kind of the rather brute force way. Morrow decides to, like, take the island, which is like, walk through the front door. There's a lot of moments like that where I find myself basically, like, fixating on whether or not something makes sense instead of whether or not it feels right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Totally.

[Chris Rye]

So I guess it feels wrong is what I'm saying. I'm not mad about this, but I think that I'm just trying to kind of unwind. When I'm watching a TV show, I don't want to be like, hey, stop running on the side of the pool.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think, I mean, look, once a lifeguard, always a lifeguard. So I don't blame you for it. I think that there are a lot of nits to pick. I think when a character says, we're going to be late, we have to hurry. And then when you see that character again and he's taken the time to build a wooden raft to transport a.

[Chris Rye]

Corpse, I also thought those guys were like super strong.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. They could probably just carry him.

[Chris Rye]

What's up with that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Similarly, the high security lab is the most trafficked place and the most used set in the show. It is equivalent to the break room with the vending machines on the office. In terms of how many people are there on top of each other at any given time. That beggars belief a little bit. I think the point you made that's really worth returning to is the show only works if its central conceit delivers. And the central conceit of this show, which again, construction wise, I think is very, very smart and admirable and potentially wise, which is what can you do with this franchise over eight episodes with more in depth exploration of it. And I think Noah looked at the history of the movies and saw that it's not just that there's xenomorphs and Ripleys. There are also synths and half people, half man, half machine and corporations. And so what. And which. Which you know, really are people too, as we've learned over the last decade. God bless them all. And what is the thematic string to pull within that? And I think the answer, especially when you bring aliens to Earth, is what does it mean to be human? Which is a very, very broad but very, very often rewarding question to ask in any art form. I think that the show has struggled to answer that question in any affecting emotional way, which is a bummer. Now, I would also say that it's an interesting assignment for a filmmaker like Noah, who is so incredibly talented at so many different parts of the television making storytelling process. I would say respectfully that from the work of his that we have enjoyed the most and that we've celebrated the most, whether it's the first two seasons of Fargo or Legion, which I was lucky enough to work in a very small capacity on in the first season of. The best characters are either are usually the most extreme. They are avatars of points of view, of zeitgeists, of thematic intent, of politics, of culture. They are very rarely just a person trying to get through their day. Now you could argue, quibble, point by point. You know, whether it's like Alison Tolman's cop in the first season, I was.

[Chris Rye]

Going to say sure is also the most like Marge from Fargo, the movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

They are.

[Chris Rye]

That is the one that. Where it's like, but what about Alison Tolman? It's like. But you could say that that is like almost direct adaptation in some way, indirect adaptation.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, it's what he does best, which is it's a Tribute to something we've seen used in a way that maybe we haven't seen before. You know, this is. I want to be very clear because I can feel Kaya's hands moving towards the edit button. That, like, the ability to do that, to do television storytelling on a very high thematic level is very, very hard. But I find it less rewarding in this show when the most human moments available, again, because of maybe the real estate that you have in eight episodes, the budget expense, the storytelling weight, the fucking alien that has to go ham every episode and a half. The eyeball.

[Chris Rye]

That's Peter Garrity, by the way, in.

[Andy Greenwald]

A big suit, God bless him. 85 years young, still nimble. When then the most human moment is like Dame Sylvia, like, scrolling through photos of her husband on her iPad.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, that's the problem with that, is that she just blithely was like. Like, their marriage is weird. Like, it's interesting. And like, we should hear about it because they are a married couple who are also.

[Andy Greenwald]

Respectfully, were.

[Chris Rye]

They were a married couple who supervised this great leap forward in scientific research and development.

[Andy Greenwald]

Apparently child free by choice, but are parental figures for these.

[Chris Rye]

And they had a crucial disagreement about what is moral and ethical about what they were doing, what they were being asked to do by their. By their bosses. And instead of having a debate between the two of them or in a scene, a beat a moment, Dame Sylvia is just like, I'll do it. And Arthur's like, no. And then they're like, you're fired. Get out. And she's like, oh, well, you know, like, there's no. Kind of, like, there's no realistic, like, emotional. In exchange between two of the only humans we have.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And. And then when you do see faints toward.

[Chris Rye]

And so when she's scrolling, I'm like, why you didn't.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't see any.

[Chris Rye]

I saw him 10 minutes ago and didn't care.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I assume that when I leave work today, you will spend a few moments before recording another podcast just looking at old pictures of me. Yeah. Hopefully I have a better, you know, gastrointestinal experience.

[Chris Rye]

I got canceled.

[Andy Greenwald]

Honestly. Likely, like the scene on. The scene on the beach, like in.

[Chris Rye]

Arthur's funeral, when he's like, I love you and. Or we love you.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I thought that was very affecting and very sweet through you say, I love you.

[Chris Rye]

Am I making that up?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that's just like. He's like, want to have a catch, kids? You're like. The screen got really blurry there, Dana Gonzalez did a bad job focusing anyway. No, it's very sweet. And, like, the hand holding was also a nice, like, touch. And it was. It was well performed. It's not very much. We don't get very much of that. I think that moment was very sweet and added something new to a mythos that usually is limited to two hours and is much more extreme in about. Are you alive or are you getting got?

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And the ratio of those things, it just feel. It does feel perpetually out of whack. I did have a question, just, like, what do you think? Arthur's like, it's really hot in Thailand. It's pretty sweaty. And he has spent I don't know how much time in a vent with a absolutely disgusting space squid with its, like, I don't know what part of it jammed down his throat. And then it comes off of his face, and he's just like, hey, guys.

[Chris Rye]

Well, that's what John Hurt does in Alien.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I know, I know, I know. There's precedent.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I guess I'm just wondering, like, hygiene wise, like, do you think he's like, does he smell like an aquarium at this point?

[Chris Rye]

Like, what's the sound? Like this. The synths or the hybrids, they're not like, oh, you stink, because they're polite. Well, I have questions about all the different, like, levels of expertise that the hybrids have.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Rye]

So, like, Wendy is a super soldier who can speak alien. Isaac is, like, downloading all scientific information ever was. And Curly is. Is trying to catch him in the AP power pole. But then there's like, three kids who were like, I'm an idiot. What's it like, right? I mean, that some kids have a stuffed animal and, like, these other two, like, what do they do? Do they have jobs? Why does Isaac and Curly have to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, first of all, if you're the kind of guy who's like, why aren't these kids having jobs? You're gonna do great in the next five to 10 years. You were born at the right time. There's a position of power waiting for you in the Department of Labor secondarily. That's really funny. Like, I think that you could.

[Chris Rye]

Wouldn't you be like, I guess maybe there's only like a 50 hit rate on this new technology.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

But wouldn't you be, like, put those three in the lab and, like, up their juice?

[Andy Greenwald]

I would say that there is kind of a lack of infrastructure. You know, we. We've read a lot in the last two weeks about how it might not be that young Quarterbacks fail their team. It might be that the team failed their quarterback.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, it's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it's very possible that they did the hybrid thing on, like, four Caleb Williams's. You know what I mean? Like, all the tools in the world on paper, we get him in the room. By the way, Arthur has big Shane Waldron vibes. Okay. I've learned recently, not very confrontational. Yeah. So I can sort of see that. So. So maybe they just aren't ready to step up. When you have a multibillion dollar corporation, or let's call it a league, that is expecting them to really carry the day, then I guess the next. What's the next version of this that, like, putting them into the tower in episode one is like.

[Chris Rye]

But if you're a cavalier, don't you hire the shanty of robots? Like, don't you hire the Kyle Shanahan of robot development who's just like, I can take any fucking robot and turn him into.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, because if you're boy cavalier, you hire four people and then you just walk around barefoot all day.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, it is. It is just. It's just. It's asking a few too many things to hold together.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, like the idea of, like, who's keeping track of who when at any moment. Like, it. It doesn't feel fair for an audience to be doing this calculation. All these calculations, like Kirsch ipading it around, being kind of in charge took some of the stink off of it for a little bit. But it does reach a point where it's just hard to keep track of who is keeping track of anyone at any time. Wendy can turn on them and be like, you shouldn't have done that, and then leave. And they can all look at each other and be like, ooh, I hope she's not mad. Too bad. We can do nothing to stop her. Even though we have a big button marked Stop Wendy and she just depowers. Right. Or whatever.

[Chris Rye]

I think the idea there is that, like, Wendy is just up against the line of, like, you guys might not be able to stop her, because I don't think they have a remote control that just shuts her down, do they?

[Andy Greenwald]

What? Wouldn't you?

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, I would have a kill switch for sure. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

These guys, I mean it, you know, Cavalier is right there in his name.

[Chris Rye]

I suppose it is. So move fast and break things.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look, and it's the kind of thing where, for the first two years, your offensive system, like, dazzles the league. And the next thing you know, you're going to play the Bills in a make or break game. And you might be the ex coach of the Miami Dolphins. You watch morning show. I read the Athletic and this is where we meet.

[Chris Rye]

I want to talk to you a little bit about what has been characterized in the press as the big moment of the episode, which is fair enough. It's the finale, like the concluding couple of minutes where Hermit, Wendy and Nibs are trying to escape the island.

[Andy Greenwald]

By the way, that's just a little boat. That's not even like a go fast boat.

[Chris Rye]

No, I mean, I don't even know where they are or when what civilization beyond this, this new Siam looks like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or the Wayland people just kind of walked there. It looks like.

[Chris Rye]

I know they just swam. They're trying to get off this boat. It turns out Hermit going around to everybody on the island and being like, is there a boat? Can I get it? Do you have the code?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'd like to get my sister off of this island.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, it's Loose lips sunk.

[Andy Greenwald]

The ship was fine.

[Chris Rye]

Ship was fine. I guess Nibs wasn't fine.

[Andy Greenwald]

Loose lips sink, Nips.

[Chris Rye]

So basically, like, as they're trying to get off this island and get to the dock, it turns out that Wendy has pretty decent control over a xenomorph and can instruct it to kill, hide, follow, save them, whatever. There's a fight on the. On the boat that. Where they're trying to get off and Hermit's old compatriots try to stop them. At one point, it looks like Nibs is going to kill one of Hermit's colleagues. And Hermit stuns her, right, with a gun, but it seems like it kills her.

[Andy Greenwald]

It. He does the electric thing that I think works on xenomorphs, right?

[Chris Rye]

And she seemed real messed up by that.

[Andy Greenwald]

She did, yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Wendy is, is. Is like, what? What did you do? What did you do?

[Andy Greenwald]

Which seems like the strange question. I think it's very clear what he did.

[Chris Rye]

I think the idea is Wendy is viewing this as like, it's us against everybody, right? And there's no distinctions, which I suppose you could say would be a human trait, although we haven't really seen a ton of that in humanity recently. You can make some distinctions between, like, well, these people work for these people. It's just following orders or whatever. Um, but what did you make of the moment? And did you feel like it hit the dramatic heights that I think it was supposed to?

[Andy Greenwald]

Uh, no. I found it. I found it all a little muddled and, and confusing, which is weird.

[Chris Rye]

Because it shot in broad daylight.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which was also maybe not the right choice. I don't know. Like, let's walk it back a couple steps. Like again, in terms of like your security, in terms of your security protocols and what works in a two hour movie versus an eight hour show. Having. Creating hybrids who can touch monitors and do anything does seem like a God level cheat code that is pretty tough to work your way out of. So she touches a screen and frees the xenomorph and then off it goes. I guess at that moment she has made a decision, Wendy, about what's important to her. Which is like what you said, right? It's just them getting off the island. Everybody else can.

[Chris Rye]

Right?

[Andy Greenwald]

I was gonna say live with it, but it's actually the reverse.

[Chris Rye]

Die with it. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

When they are then confronted in their journey. And by the way, I should say that the scene where they saw their gravestones was a good scene. That was another like a moment that was like evocative, thoughtful and paid off its premise. Then they, then the, the wailing goons come out of the, the marsh grasses. They're wearing their ghillie suits and Wendy does a, does a dog whistle and the alien comes in. Wreck Shop.

[Chris Rye]

Duolingo does wonders.

[Andy Greenwald]

I get, I get so many passive aggressive Duolingo messages because my daughter used my email to join Duolingo and has embarked on language journeys on four different languages. It is pissy.

[Chris Rye]

They gotta start being a lot nicer to you because, you know, like the AirPods now can translate.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, so wait, so they should. Who should be nicer to me?

[Chris Rye]

Like yes, Duolingo should be like, hey, we would love for you to just hang out with us a little bit more again, like you're such a good time. Are you saying like we're really disappointed that you haven't kept your streak alive.

[Andy Greenwald]

Seems like you don't really want to learn French. Quel domage.

[Chris Rye]

Why are you looking at Kaya?

[Andy Greenwald]

She knows that's French just because she was in Italy recently. Look here.

[Chris Rye]

That's not one.

[Andy Greenwald]

Eyes here.

[Chris Rye]

Hey, come on.

[Andy Greenwald]

Anyway, I like that you're just sort of low key, threatening Duolingo like they're about to be taken out of business. The daylight thing, it wasn't so much to me that the xenomorph didn't looked a little goofy in the daylight. It was when the xenomorph is walking over to Wendy in what should be kind of a cool scene. And there have been moments, at least in my memory of the Alien franchise Where Ripley has come very close to.

[Chris Rye]

Alien, especially in Resurrection.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, exactly. When the alien recognizes a little bit of itself in her. Right. Cause she has.

[Chris Rye]

Quite literally.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. So that moment. So there's a little bit of echo to that. Much like. And Noah's really good at these sort of, like, sort of recognition echoes throughout the work that he adapts or iterates from. My eye was drawn to Joe, to Hermit, to Alex Lothar's character, who. Who I think is. He's one of the most exciting young actors out there. I love. I love everything he does from End of the fucking world to Howard Zen to. Andor excited to see him playing a different kind of role. So this is in no way, Kaya, a criticism of Alex Lothar, but if you watch him in that scene. Yeah. My main takeaway was he does not know what he's playing here or he hasn't been told what he's playing because he looks a little confused, a little worried. And it's like, what actually is the character playing? He is face to face with a space monster that tried to kill him multiple times. Not this specific one, but you know what I mean? Punctured his lung and is generally something that one should avoid. He's also protective of his sister. And now it's walking up to his sister and being friends with him. And also has just violently massacred people in front of him. And he is a medic. This is like runs. This is antithetical to his whole core belief system. Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

He's a conscientious objector.

[Andy Greenwald]

What do I do here? So then when the B side to that story is now other people are going to murder other soldiers again, with no distinction between who is who. And he's just like, I want people to stop killing people. And she's like, what did you do with this?

[Chris Rye]

He shot his girl. Right? Her girl.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

But he. We know. I don't. I guess, fundamentally, I don't think it is. I think you have to go back.

[Chris Rye]

One of the more interesting ideas that the show put into play, and I don't know if I found that it either intellectually or visually, like, met the moment, but I. I still respect the fact that it kicked this round is what is it that. What is it that would make Wendy Marcy. What does she retain other than some references to culture? Like some. Like, we used to watch Ice Age together. Do you remember that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

That would make it her. And would Alex know the difference? And that is Hermit. You know the difference. And that's why Kirsch and Cavalier keep him on the island in the first place is to basically like do a kind of stress test. Stress test of like, is she recognizable to this person? Like, would that be. And I think there is that line where it's like, if it's not recognizable to the family, then what we have is a very expensive failure. Right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Rye]

I thought that that just got. I think maybe the fact that that got swallowed up into an action sequence was maybe why we both are reacting the same way, which is like. I just don't know if that moment hit as hard as it was supposed to because it's. Because it's. It's a. There's a lot of like confusing developments. And furthermore, I think by that point in the episode, I was starting to be like, so there's a hundred soldiers on this island who can surround the five or 10 guys that Utani sent, but they were not around for the containment of aliens or like the securing of of hybrids. So then that leads me to wonder, like, is the experiment really, like, how are these hybrids interacting with these xenomorphs? But I actually think, like, I've gotten past that and I'm just like, that's not. There is not some master conspiracy going on in this show. There is a. This is what you see is what you get.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're asking. I think that's very well framed. I think it's very generous interpretation and I think it's very. I get that. That makes sense to me. And again with the show, the conceptually I am on board for it. It's in terms of execution, like, I did not find it to be a particularly enjoyable hour of television because of the way there were so many. There's so much turbulence in terms of the experience with watching it. There are moments like the moment when Cavalier quizzes the sheep eyeball on PI. That's sick. That's like really cool. It's a great scene. It's executed, it's shot well, it's creepy, it's disturbing. When the show hits, the show hits, but it does not have a fluidity or a flow in terms of. In a. In a. In a way that makes it a week to week, compelling, pleasurable experience. And I think it's because it falters on the human moments that usually stitch together the bigger that that can stitch together. Not just stitch together the big ideas, but also paper over some of the granular inconsistencies that. That truly you and I don't care about. It's that we keep feeling them or if the shape of them are bumping against them. Like the last point to make on that is probably the. The Morrow Kirsch collision, which sort of upends what we thought was happening that we thought. I was like, oh, is Kirsch. Is he a double agent? Is he working for Wayland? Or is he. Or was luring Morrow there Always the goal. But also how on top of it is Kirsch to the point where he is aware that a chestburster is about to come out of Arthur and he can just trap it in the open field? Yeah, it's like a Cooper de Gene torture.

[Chris Rye]

They are actually quite adept at containing those aliens. So that's what leads me to believe whatever damage the aliens are doing, they are aware of it and allowing it to happen because they could end it whenever they wanted. Those guys went in and took care of the fly in like five seconds.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I make a pitch for what I want the last scene of the last episode to be?

[Chris Rye]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would like it to be Wendy at a cafe some years in the future. And she looks at another table in the cafe and she sees the xenomorph there and he's just having lunch and.

[Chris Rye]

He goes, I think that's a great idea.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wouldn't that be nice?

[Chris Rye]

You should write television.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because then the alien is enjoying the fruits of Earth cafe culture.

[Chris Rye]

That's another thing is like, don't let that fucking alien get off the island.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that your advice?

[Chris Rye]

Well, because you're just gonna make me so mad about like. So Ellen Ripley just lived her whole life and like, didn't know that aliens were in Thailand?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I mean, was she well traveled? I don't know.

[Chris Rye]

Like, I'm just saying, it's like I'm okay with him being like Prometheus and Covenant didn't happen.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

But I. I hope that the aliens stick to this part of Earth.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think that.

[Chris Rye]

And don't mess with like alien and aliens and like what they're about.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I think the point you've been making from the beginning is a good one. Which is we haven't really heard about this place. The larger mythos, which are company. Yeah. Right.

[Chris Rye]

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about Black Rabbit. The entire season 8 episodes dropped on Netflix last night. I believe we both watched the first two stars. Jason Bateman and Jude Law as two middle aged brothers in New York City. Jake is Jude Law and Jake is a successful if stretched thin restaurateur. While Vince is a falling star, you could say, scratching together. Get Rich, quick schemes and trying to stay ahead of his nefarious creditors.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a guy in debt and his own demons.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, for sure. When Vince unexpectedly turns up in New York City on the night of Jake's Restaurant, then on the night that Jake's Restaurant is to be reviewed by the New York Times, things start to change for both brothers.

[Andy Greenwald]

I told you, old media still matters.

[Chris Rye]

And this, for what it's worth, this is written by Zach Balin and who wrote Creed 3 and Gran Turismo. And the Order, which is a movie both of us liked. And King Richard, which was nominated for an Academy Award for. Along with Kate Sussman, who's his creative and, I believe, life partner. The first two episodes are directed by Bateman, the ones that we're going to be talking about. There is a middle block handled by Laura Linney.

[Andy Greenwald]

Crazy.

[Chris Rye]

And the final two are directed by Justin Kurtzel.

[Andy Greenwald]

So a lot of talent, an awesome director. The Long Road to the North. Is that the name of the show that we watched? And the Order and his life and creative partner is Essie Davis, who plays Dame. What's her name?

[Chris Rye]

Sylvia.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Well, it's really all one big show, this crazy thing called life.

[Chris Rye]

You go first. Me, I'll go first. Really liked it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Rye]

Really like this. I'm. I think that this is a very nostalgic show for me in terms of it being about one of my favorite cities and about going out and going to restaurants and going to bars and. And. And owing people money.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, Spotted Pig After Hours.

[Chris Rye]

Even the way it's constructed. You know, I think because Bateman directed it and because it's on Netflix and because this is his first major television work, I think since Ozark, there's going to be a lot of Ozark comparisons.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

And I think it's slightly more. It's paced in a more stately way than Ozark was, which isn't to suggest that it's stately. It's just not the. Holy shit. A season's worth of stuff just happened in the first 15 minutes of Ozark. But I will hear and understand tons of criticisms of it. There's no reason for these episodes to be an hour and eight minutes long. There is definitely some flab. But I think that my level of enjoyment, both for Bateman's performance, just enjoying Jude Law being like a ambitious hotshot restaurateur, and the setting and the Mayu. Mayu.

[Andy Greenwald]

Milieu.

[Chris Rye]

Milieu. It's what happens when Duolingo just goes.

[Andy Greenwald]

By the way, I'm Directing Conan the Barbarian, by the way. John Milieu, I believe. Yeah. That's good. That's why you don't have me on that podcast anymore.

[Chris Rye]

You should replace me. I enjoyed the first two episodes. I enjoyed them.

[Andy Greenwald]

I got some positives for you. It's not going to be what you think it's going to be. Yeah, for me.

[Chris Rye]

Based on your text messages.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I hate pilots, man. Pilots are tough. And. And I'm glad we can talk about.

[Chris Rye]

The big sin of this pilot.

[Andy Greenwald]

We can talk about that and we will. I'm glad I kept going. It did temper some of my feelings about it.

[Chris Rye]

That happened before.

[Andy Greenwald]

Never first time, but I'm still learning. You know, I think the.

[Chris Rye]

I wish we had Instagram for when you, when you did your Barbie trailer rant.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know what you're talking about. Don't give her ideas.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

We give her. There's too much free time for her to find this stuff while we're recording. There are things, there are definite things that I like about the show. First and foremost, being like, Jason Bateman's a very charming and charismatic actor. And I think it's also fun that he has, after such a long time career and, you know, child actor, darker times, research and everything like that, has grabbed the reins of his creative opportunities to the degree that he not only can shepherd a project like this, get it onto Netflix, direct it, but choose the juicier, darker part for himself to give himself opportunities that maybe casting directors wouldn't. I also like the New Yorkiness of it. I like, I think as a fan of both restaurants and the New York Times restaurant reviews, this world is ripe for some sort of storytelling. And there are moments when I think the show does take advantage of it, both in terms of, like, very, very smart, actual smart, but legitimate observations. Like, restaurants are nightclubs for adults, which is how Vince pitches the Black Rabbit as a concept to his brother in the flashback that starts the second episode.

[Chris Rye]

But also there's nightclubs, technically for adults as well, since you have to be a certain age to get into them. But be that as it may, well.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think people who, you know, who.

[Chris Rye]

Age out of going to the club.

[Andy Greenwald]

In some ways, yes, I think that there are moments like that take full advantage of it. Like there's a. In the second episode where the hoodlums who are pursuing Vince say, we should tell him he's not coming, talking about Vince, and they go into like a Turkish bath or a Russian bath in the Lower east side, and the camera just Follows them on this, like, labyrinthine route all the way down to a sub basement, which is even more claustrophobic, into a hidden office. And that idea that you can have living in New York, that the city folds in on itself and it's like an M.C. escher picture of rooms onto rooms, into stairways into stairways, each with hidden meaning and hidden access is very exciting and very compelling. Even if I've never really been a Schfitz kind of guy, I haven't either. You ever did that? No. Some people still swear by it, but we don't have them on the podcast, so we'll move on. All of that I'm fine with.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that one of the things that I found the most jarring about the pilot, I don't even want to characterize it as a negative. Like, this is actually a good thing for Netflix because Netflix's business model is so savvy, or maybe its algorithm is so savvy that this show works. I mean that like, without judging, like, it is absolutely tailor made to show up on the screen as an autoplay or if you like when people finish.

[Chris Rye]

Ozark or Bloodlines or like Damages, which it kind of reminds me of like sort of like earlier century.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is what I was gonna say. It is no sin to do a cover version in a very recognizable key for people because that is a proven pleasure spot and the show will deliver on that. In terms of the rising stakes and the backstabbing and the mystery inside of the mystery, all that makes sense to me. I wrote, there was something about the first 15 minutes of the show that I was like, oh, this is super pre woke television. And what I mean by that, in the same joking way that the guy I love on Instagram, James Dimitri, who reviews greasy spoon fry ups in London, and if they serve any bread that's not like, like buttered white toast, he calls it woke toast. This is what I meant in the sense that the show starts with a man looking in a mirror, like cleansing himself before putting it on for a crowd. And everyone's sexy and there's violence, there's guns. And then something goes crazy and then it stops and says, one month earlier.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I said, no, no.

[Chris Rye]

As it was beginning, I was like, this is a good fucking show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Exactly. I was like playing the Walkman and it's doing something really radical, starting us in the shit. Why wouldn't a show do this? And then it, it did the thing that I think even I think finally now development executives are hitting pause on like, this is gone too far.

[Chris Rye]

They just started the show with Jude Law peeling himself off the cot in the back of the Black Rabbit. And tonight's the big night. All of that information is conveyed beautifully.

[Andy Greenwald]

I agree.

[Chris Rye]

Obviously, you are given this insight into, A, a, crime is going to be committed at a certain point, probably many of them, and B, someone is going to get shot. And. But also that you can see that the restaurant has reached an even higher echelon of success than it had previous. You know, after this New York Times review, that's sort of like the culmination of the first episode, but they just take the gas they did. They just. They deflate the balloon with going back a month. It just started the month earlier. Like, nobody needs the gunshot to be like, I guess I'll keep watching Jason Bateman and Jude Law run around New York City.

[Andy Greenwald]

I hope, if any development executives do listen to this podcast, please take that note from us like it is. Absolutely. I've been in those meetings. I've gotten those notes that in the attention economy that we have, we have to start with the most fraught moment possible. But then if the most fraught moment possible for your show, timeline wise, occurs one week later, three months into your story, and you have all this throat clearing to do, maybe reconsider the show.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe just start where the story starts or where the story ought to start and see how it flows from there. Broadly speaking, I found the word that I wrote. And again, this is not a criticism of the entertainment engagement of it, because when I watched the second episode, I was like, I could 100% see myself just binging this on a flight. There's nothing wrong with it. These are good actors. It's, you know, it's high production values, and it's loosely in a world that I'm interested in. Interested in. That drops enough like, okay, Danny Meyer, or like, oh, oh, mixed use in Murray Hill. And I'm like, ooh, yes, go on. Like, I get that. That is appealing. But regardless, I did write down that I found this, like, phony baloney in the sense that, like, you know, it is humorless. It is. It indicates everything.

[Chris Rye]

I think Bateman can be funny in this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Bateman is a charming and funny performer. But my main takeaway, I was like, why am I finding this, like, very, like, determinative and, like, heavy and serious in a way that I found oppressive as opposed to task, which I love, which DJ Grasanova aside, is also darkly lit.

[Chris Rye]

Dude's praying and being like, my family is broken. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I Have to say these are apples and oranges, so it might not be fair to compare them, although they are both fruit that I have the sense when I watch Task that Brad Inglesby, who created it, has been in these kitchens. He has been in these rooms. He. He has wrestled with some religious morality struggles in his life. And there is a patina of authenticity to it.

[Chris Rye]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, inside of these rooms. When I watched the first two episodes of Black Rabbit, I felt that there was a lot of authenticity into the movies Jason Bateman and everyone else had watched to make the show. Like Jude Law in this. I love Jude Law as an actor, and I don't begrudge Jude Law wanting to be in some version of Michael Clayton and Mean Streets. I don't know if I buy him doing that, but I respect his right to be the guy in those movies. And it's just a framing thing of, you know, do you. When they go to their late mother's house and they're like, we have to sell this or whatever, it looks beautiful. It's lit beautifully. It looks like it has good bones, you know, which I think is inaccurate to what the house does in the story. But the aesthetics of the shop matter more in that moment than the storytelling.

[Chris Rye]

That's interesting. I didn't mind that scene. I think that it's a good scene.

[Andy Greenwald]

The brothers are good in the scene.

[Chris Rye]

I think you're touching on something where it's like, the authenticity thing is really interesting. And whether or not you're imitating the art that you love rather than the life you want to depict, I find the two brothers, one who's spiraling out quite publicly in all of the ways that you would normally say, like, this guy is in trouble. He owes money. He doesn't have a phone. He doesn't have any kids, cash. He's, you know, basically got to scarf fast food wherever he can to get a meal.

[Andy Greenwald]

He has some sick layers, though.

[Chris Rye]

And I know that makes honestly probably could put that Sonic Youth T shirt on on Depop and do quite well for.

[Andy Greenwald]

What about his black denim jacket?

[Chris Rye]

But Jude Law, who is by all, you know, like all hallmarks of success, is a successful person, is also like, I have crisis after crisis after crisis. Y and has confusing, you know, perhaps other, like, crimes that we are not quite clear on, because in the first two episodes, there's this whole thing with the bartender who refuses to come back to work.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it seems like we are. We are. I mean, I made a joke probably I shouldn't have, like, to misbehavior in bad behavior, rapacious, actually criminal behavior in the restaurant world over the last 10 years.

[Chris Rye]

Don't know. I haven't watched past last two episodes.

[Andy Greenwald]

It seems intentional that there are some Spotted Pig. It's a sim. Black Rabbit seems like a lot like a Spotted Pig, which was the hot spot where celebrities and musicians both invested in and partied. And then it was revealed sometime later that the restaurateur behind it was up to no good.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. And like the Spotted Pig, I think that the. One of the cool things that they've done with Black Rabbit is like, there's always another room that you can't get into, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Rye]

Like, Spotted Pig had, like, these tiered kind of like private dining rooms upon private dining rooms. And. And it was like, to your point about the M.C. escher quality of it, like, you'd go into this thing and then it would just be like, well, I'm here. I can't get that level. And then even mostly that level can't get upstairs.

[Andy Greenwald]

I can eat this burger here and.

[Chris Rye]

You know, sadly take a picture of it on my iPhone.

[Andy Greenwald]

Bono is upstairs right now, but I don't even know where the stairs are. Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I think it gets a lot of that. Right.

[Chris Rye]

So basically what I think is, like, it maybe is more truthful than it is authentic. Like, I like the way the characters are pit against one another, but also have affection for each other. I read an interview with Bateman and Law where they were talking about, like, the durability of brothers and family as.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, a dramatic, we wouldn't know structure.

[Chris Rye]

Because it's like, you can break up marriages, you can break up friendships, but ultimately, family. You're always connected, whether it's through your dead mother or whatever. It is like you got, like, this. This connective tissue. And when the second episode began and it was yet another flashback, why is the first episode starts with a flash forward, the second episode starts with a flashback? I was like, this is cool. We're gonna get a little bit more. And I thought that flashback in the first, second episode actually was like, this is neat. You can see an earlier version of Bateman. You can see two guys who think they're basically at the same kind of point in their lives. One's gonna go down, one's gonna go up. Why? Why did that happen?

[Andy Greenwald]

And, you know, and then there's the music video of them In a early 2000s, I guess.

[Chris Rye]

Are they War kids kind of band?

[Andy Greenwald]

Long wave vibes? Yeah, yeah. You know, like, kind of like Post Strokes, New Rock, whatever. But they actually make the video, which was a bold choice.

[Chris Rye]

And now, sadly, because it means we're old, that era is as far away from our current moment than as CBGB's was for when we were living in New York at first.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

Do you know what I mean?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. So us talking about this is kind of like old. Us like people older than us talking about Spike Lee's Summer of Sam when it came out. And I was like, whoa, look at Adrian Brody's hair. That's crazy. That was like 20 years before the movie came out. That's fun to think about. Thank you.

[Chris Rye]

Will you keep watching?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I was all the way out at the beginning, but then when it settled into what it is, which it does sound like, I'm like, I'm actually in debt to Troy Kotzer from Coda when I say this. I'm not like, I see the shape of it. And there's no shame in being a very high class version of a type of crime show. There's enough on the margins that make it. That kind of make it compelling.

[Chris Rye]

Is there a writer's room term for the need to put a mystery or a something to solve on top of what would just be like a character drama?

[Andy Greenwald]

There's not even a term for it. It's just the industry now.

[Chris Rye]

Like, you need to have, like, who's robbing the black rabbit?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Rye]

As like, okay, like, we get piecemeal stories.

[Andy Greenwald]

What are we? What? What are we? Why? It's not. It used to be, I think, how do we get people to watch the next episode? And now it's how do we get people not to turn away? And you have to front load everything. I mean, this is true. Look, this is the same sensibility that Kaya brings to our Instagram page day after day. What's sticky? You know what I mean? Like, what can we. How can we really drive the conversation? Clickbait. So I get that. I just wish that there was a structure where there was more to sink into. Yeah. But it's relatively big stars. It's a limited series intentionally. Zach Balin is a film writer and, you know, TV can be a different animal. It doesn't need to be. There's opportunity for it to be. And it's fine to deliver something that's straight down the middle. That doesn't surprise. But there's an element when I watch the show that might keep me from watching it more, where it's like, when Vince goes back, I don't know if he's in Queens or Brooklyn. And he goes to the bar that. Like, it's the one place that doesn't sell $50 fucking hamburgers anymore. And the guy who's the bartender there's is that guy. They're like, who's the actor?

[Chris Rye]

He was an Ozark. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's in everything being that guy. And God bless him, he should work. He's our next Peter Garrity. I love him. But there's a moment when it's like you could surprise, but instead you comfort. The Troy Kotsert part where the criminal mastermind is deaf. Like, that's a surprise moment.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And aesthetically, it's like, it's cool. That came out of nowhere. And I leaned in. Chris Coy, who's one of the guys. One of the hoods. Yeah. I'm just Cheryl over here. Chris Coy plays one of the.

[Chris Rye]

That could be a new way of us recapping episodes is like, at that point, I leaned out, but then I leaned in, you know, when Grasanova came in.

[Andy Greenwald]

For what's worth, I watch television from a rocking chair. So it's a constant back and forth. Chris Coy, who plays one of the toughs who's standing behind the guy who's the son of Troy Kotzer, did a lot of scenes with Tom Pelfrey in Banshee, a show I still think you should check out.

[Chris Rye]

I will.

[Andy Greenwald]

They had a big confrontation. It was very good.

[Chris Rye]

It was like a huge fight.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's. Yes, I leaned in to that confrontation, which is to say, I thought that was pretty sick. Last thing on Black Rabbit. We don't know how brothers are to each other. We're as close as we're going to get, probably. Is there ever a world in which I would emerge from arrivals, blinking into the New York sunlight, and you're just waiting for me? We've had no choice.

[Chris Rye]

What airport is that? Is that LaGuardia? Is that what it's like there now?

[Andy Greenwald]

My thing was more like, where do.

[Chris Rye]

They let you wait at all?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, if you have a Jaguar, vintage Jag, like, it's not just that. It's like, remember the Seinfeld thing? Like, I'm not driving you to the airport. Like, this goes beyond driving someone to the airport. This is sending a ticket into the ether, assuming someone got on the plane because that person doesn't have time. And then picking them up, just waiting until they emerge. We don't know what kind of airport arriver Vince is. Maybe he needs to go to the Bathroom. Maybe he checked a bag.

[Chris Rye]

Sure. Skis. He could be oversized luggage.

[Andy Greenwald]

He came from Reno. There are ski trails up there. That's.

[Chris Rye]

It's Tahoe. And Jace.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I'm saying. Like that was.

[Chris Rye]

You asked the right questions, man. You always do.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which was more plausible? Jude Law doing that for his brother sight unseen at an airport or Jude Law's entire family being big Nets fans?

[Chris Rye]

That is fucking hilarious. But I think accurate to like new money in New York.

[Andy Greenwald]

I agree. I think that that was a knowing thing. Wendy's like, cause who loves the Nets? And I think the internal joke is no one.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But everyone who lives kind of Park Slope a Jace who's just like, I don't know what to do with these kids.

[Chris Rye]

My company has Nets tickets.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like let's go. Yeah. Don't you love our team featuring Michael Porter Jr. Michael, everybody's a podcaster.

[Chris Rye]

Thanks for joining me today.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did I have an op. What do you mean joining you?

[Chris Rye]

Thanks to Kai coming on second hour. My guest Brendan Carr.

[Andy Greenwald]

There it is.

[Chris Rye]

Is joining me. Thanks so much for joining. We'll be back on Monday to talk about task. Maybe some more Black Rabbit Lowdown is coming. Slow Horses is coming back. There's a lot of really good TV on right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think all that's coming next week.

[Chris Rye]

So we better. There's a crazy like Thursday is essentially D day for us. Not literally.

[Andy Greenwald]

We're not.

[Chris Rye]

We're not.

[Andy Greenwald]

We don't know. We don't know. Time stamp it. We don't know. But good luck, everyone. Your teen adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen, the new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you.