‘Adolescence’ May Be the Best Show of the Year. Plus, ‘White Lotus’ S3E5 and ‘Severance’ S2E9.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Watch - 'Adolescence’ May Be the Best Show of the Year. Plus, ‘White Lotus’ S3E5 and ‘Severance’ S2E9.

Date: March 17, 2025
Hosts: Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan (The Ringer)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Watch brings together Andy and Chris for an enthusiastic (and deeply insightful) breakdown of three standout TV events: Netflix's four-part drama Adolescence, HBO's The White Lotus Season 3 Episode 5 (featuring a buzzy Sam Rockwell cameo), and Apple TV+'s penultimate episode of Severance Season 2. The hosts unpack the technique, emotion, and ambition of each show, offering sharp cultural analysis, memorable banter, and their signature blend of storytelling passion and wit.

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Segment 1: ‘Adolescence’ on Netflix – "Best Show of the Year?"

[06:51] Show Introduction and Jack Thorne's Vision

• Chris hypes up Adolescence as "a show on Netflix, four episodes, comes from Jack Thorne" — praising Thorne’s blend of big franchise successes (Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, Stranger Things stage play) with a devotion to “social realism TV” and limited series about pressing social issues.
• Andy highlights co-creator/actor Stephen Graham as a creative force: “the hardest working man in show business at this point.”
• Thorne’s guiding idea: TV as the “empathy box,” giving viewers access to humanity and issues they otherwise wouldn't encounter.
  • Quote (Chris, 09:19):

  “Jack Thorne has an oft-quoted aphorism about television being an empathy box… and I was absolutely floored by this on every level.”

[10:09–12:26] Technical and Emotional Mastery

• Andy praises the directing (by Philip Barentini) and the bold formal gamble of the series’ long, hard-cut-free takes, making viewers experience both procedural tension and emotional reality.
• The camera choices intensify immersion: the audience is with a 13-year-old accused of murder across every procedural step, experiencing the "mundanity... of all the paperwork, the questions, the repetition, the desperate arrival of family and defenders."

[13:57–15:56] Why the One-Take Gambit Works

• Chris explains the effect:
  • The one-take format isn't just aesthetic — it’s “a formal gambit that defines the experience” and “informs how you process the information.”
  • The show’s gut-punch is the “dissonance between something being the worst thing that’s ever happened… and just a Tuesday for the other people in the building.”

[16:36–20:32] Light Spoilers: Empathy, Structure, and the Big Reveal

• The episode arc: As evidence mounts, viewers share the family's hope for a mistake, only to be confronted with "video evidence of this child killing a young girl with a knife" ([17:35]).
• The show “confronts your biases,” putting viewers in the POV of the family until the structure—in a “masterful” (Andy, 20:32) way—swings the narrative with its emotional reveal.
  • Quote (Chris, 19:27):

  "This first episode is a masterclass... you are at once disoriented, but also comforted by the guardrails of a system..."

[21:25–23:06] The System, Social Realism, and Acting Highlights

• Andy finds the system’s portrayal “strangely comforting” (21:25), depicting public services working as they should.
• Chris notes the show’s refusal to romanticize – it also highlights the system's understaffing and under-resourcing.
• Special shoutout to Owen Cooper (the young lead) and Aaron Doherty’s performances.

[23:20–25:38] The State of TV and "Empathy Box" Impact

• Both hosts place Adolescence within the broader landscape: a counterpoint to high-concept, escapist TV, demonstrating what the medium is uniquely capable of.
• Andy pushes back on labeling it “meat and potatoes storytelling,” arguing instead that Adolescence is deeply ambitious in theme, emotion, and filmmaking.
  • Quote (Andy, 25:38):

  “It is wildly ambitious in terms of subject matter, theme, emotion, tone and filmmaker.”

Key Takeaway:
Adolescence gets called the “best thing I’ve seen this year” (Chris, 10:03). Both hosts urge listeners to watch, promising further discussion (“maybe Wednesday, maybe next week”).

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Segment 2: The White Lotus Season 3, Episode 5 – "Sam Rockwell in Thailand: Has the Series Stalled?"

[30:21] Sam Rockwell’s Scene: Highlight of the Season

• The hosts dive right into the media buzz around episode 5’s surprise cameo.
• Chris raves about the "incredible piece of two people acting with one another," elevating the entire season.
  • Quote (Chris, 31:54):

  "It made me feel like I was taking flight… the show itself was actually going to some profound place."

[34:01–36:16] Mike White, Meta-Narrative, and Show Philosophy

• Andy: Mike White “cracked his knuckles”, giving Rockwell a long, dynamic, and ambiguous speech — "so long and so engaging... all I'm going to ask Walton Goggins to do is just react."
• Chris suggests the speech is an allegory for writing and creativity: “pushing excess to the point of purification,” exploring self-discovery through inhabiting others ("disappearing into other people… somehow finding out something about yourself" [35:02]).

[36:59–42:42] Structural and Thematic Critiques

• Andy sharply critiques the season’s lack of momentum and character development; even five episodes in, “none of the characters have advanced at all outside of themselves.”
• The contrast with prior seasons is highlighted: season 2, by episode 5, was "already out on the endgame" (38:56), while S3 remains static.
  • Quote (Andy, 41:10):

  "Those fault lines in that friend group have been static since they got off the plane."

[42:42–44:29] Pacing, Episode Count, and Concerns

• S3 is longer and slower than previous seasons — possibly to its detriment.
• Andy voices a “concern troll” about Mike White having too much writing time due to the strike, resulting in an overextended season.

[44:29–48:35] Plot Recaps and Standout Performers

• Group-by-group breakdown:
  • The Ratliffs: “waiting for the shoe to drop… cast waiting for a gun to go off.”
  • Belinda and Greg: a cat-and-mouse hunt that’s yet to catch fire.
  • Three friends' dynamic (Jacqueline, Kate, Laurie): “remain the same” — Chris expresses fascination with how friendship fault lines persist, but both feel it’s undercooked.
• Jason Isaacs and Parker Posey singled out for “incredible” performances.
  • Quote (Andy, 47:10):

  "When Jason Isaacs and Parker Posey get a 'let's clear the decks' scene... I'm psyched."

Key Takeaway:
Episode 5 crackles only during the Sam Rockwell/Walton Goggins scene — hosts note the rest of the season is oddly static, characters and viewers both “waiting” for something to happen. Still, the hosts are keeping faith in Mike White’s ambition and are eager for how the show moves forward.

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Segment 3: Severance Season 2, Episode 9 – “Is the Mystery Box Running on Fumes?”

[48:35] Emotional and Narrative Disconnection

• Chris sets up the topics for a rapid-fire close, as the finale approaches.
• Andy admits to only being emotionally moved by “the Zach Cherry Merit Weaver scenes,” appreciating “a real person reacting to the emotional truth of an insane world.”
  • Chris pushes back: a rare moment of on-pod disagreement.

[49:52–54:29] Plausibility Issues and Structural Frustration

• Chris vents about the practical inconsistencies: why can the characters get away with so much? Why does the show’s world veer between contemporary and Mad Men–era trappings?
• Andy compares the show’s logic to the Emperor’s taunts: “let it flow through you” [53:05].

[55:15–58:56] Revelations, Pacing, and Show Logic

• The hosts are frustrated that key reveals (e.g., ‘Cold harbor is the case’) are delivered only for the audience’s benefit, not the characters’ — indicative of a “series of obfuscations and frustration.”
• Helly’s family/egg/identity scenes: the symbolism (“a lot of baby stuff,” 56:12) is increasingly heavy-handed, and the show is “paced and tonally presented as if it’s the fucking Book of Revelations” (57:43).
  • Quote (Chris, 59:46):

  “I don’t really know, nor do I particularly care, what Cold harbor is. There’s not really a likelihood that they’re going to come up with an explanation for what Lumen is doing that cooks my pasta so bad that I’m like, damn, I was wrong about this show.”

[59:46–60:26] Hopes for the Finale

• Both hosts hold out hope that the finale will "break down the walls and ceilings" creatively and shift to a new paradigm, but acknowledge the narrative stasis and limitations of the “mystery box” format.

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Notable Quotes

• Chris on Adolescence’s Impact:
  "This is why I watch television and why I podcast about TV… absolutely floored by this on every level." [09:31]
• Andy on Direction:
  "This feels like incredibly creative people at the height of their technical and empathetic powers." [13:42]
• Chris on White Lotus S3
  "It made me feel like I was taking flight.” [31:54]
• Andy’s Metacritique:
  “None of the characters have advanced at all outside of themselves in five episodes.” [36:59]
• Chris on Severance:
  "There's not really a likelihood that they're going to come up with an explanation for what Lumen is doing that cooks my pasta so bad that I'm like, damn, I was wrong about this show." [59:46]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Adolescence deep-dive: [06:51]–[26:44]
• White Lotus S3E5 dissection: [30:21]–[48:35]
• Severance S2E9 critique: [48:35]–[60:26]

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Episode Flow and Conclusion

This episode showcases Andy and Chris at their sharpest: championing bold, empathetic storytelling (Adolescence), parsing the ambitions and frustrations of prestige TV (White Lotus, Severance), and offering both praise and critique with humor and depth. They end with a promise for more discussion (and a tease about what’s coming up next week).

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For new listeners or those who missed the episode:
You’ll walk away understanding why Adolescence is essential viewing, what gives White Lotus its moments of magic and its pacing problems, and why Severance might be hitting the limits of the mystery box formula — all in the wry, passionate voice that makes The Watch must-listen TV talk.

Transcript

[Chris Ryan]

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[Andy Greenwald]

Carvana.

[Chris Ryan]

Pickup times vary, fees may apply. I need support staff to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the Ringer. And joining me in the studio, we all have our Achilles heel. It's Andy Green Waltz.

[Andy Greenwald]

Big Monday.

[Chris Ryan]

What's going on, buddy?

[Andy Greenwald]

Look. Adolescence. White lotus. Severance. Big TV show, but. Big TV show Monday.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, big TV show Monday.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I wanted to wish you, and particularly half of you a Happy St. Patrick's Day.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, thanks. The good half.

[Andy Greenwald]

The half that keeps it real.

[Chris Ryan]

That's the goodfellas thing, right? You know, I'm not making any kind of like, weird gesture.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was noted. Yeah, it was noted.

[Chris Ryan]

Kind of sensitive. I had a St. Patrick's Day celebration on Friday. Today I am celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

[Andy Greenwald]

What did you do on Friday to celebrate it?

[Chris Ryan]

I had a Guinness and then a harp.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, nice.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you were just. That's just you in a nutshell. Both sides in it all. Beers matter. It was beautiful.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought that's what this country was all about. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you know, I did want to ask you if you were having a similar experience because you Know, generally, even before we started recording today, we were talking about how much fun we both have on the Internet, just, just with what service to us and how things are cool. But I am, I'm here to talk about the good things. And one of the good things in my life now is that because of my recent travels and my interest in, in, in my time in London is I just now get serviced. I. I think I now have the CR feed. Yes. Because all I get serviced to me are like Instagram accounts called like Creamy Guinness. And it's just like the best pint of Guinness in London is found and you know, it's just like they go to another place called like the Old Shillelagh. Yeah. And then it's just people being like, ah, do you see that? Do you see the way it kisses the glass? And I have to say I'm a very affected by this. Yes, it looks amazing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

All the pubs are great. I miss them very much. But I am also wondering, I mean, feel free to jump in with your thoughts on the Old Shillelagh or maybe we'll just go back next time we're both there.

[Chris Ryan]

A fan of the Toucan was my Guinness spot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I mean a lot of content from the Devonshire, which I think we've both been to and.

[Chris Ryan]

But a lot of dudes with industry vests standing outside the Devonshire.

[Andy Greenwald]

A lot of other dudes there too. When we were there as dudes, we did not stand out.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I guess the thing that I'm asking you about is in your experience with the world and you know, you're, you're a, you're an aesthete, you enjoy.

[Chris Ryan]

We're going to talk about that when it comes to adolescence as well. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jesus, I'm stalling the again. This is like years too late, but I'm now thinking about it. So I'm talking about it. But like Guinness is one of those things that is a undeniably a great thing in the world and delicious. But also it looks really good on Instagram.

[Chris Ryan]

Beautiful.

[Andy Greenwald]

And the. I'm wondering if you are ever finding yourself falling down in the uncanny valley between how good people holding things up on reels looks and what the reality is. Because you know, there are other things that look good on the Internet too, like cheesesteaks I'm getting serviced a lot of like cheesesteak influencer content and they're like, oh yeah, look at that. And they like break the cheesesteak in half and like hold it up and they're like, I'm at Old Pat's on Conshohocken. And I'm like, I've driven past that place 100 times. It's probably good. Sure, but what's the ceiling here? But on Instagram, when you get in the cameras, in. On the juices and the Cooper, you know the Cooper sharp, flowing.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah. When the original gemstone is just slapping together a cheesesteak.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, so, so. Oh. Oh, that. Oh, right. Yeah, that Cooper.

[Chris Ryan]

I currently. I don't want to delay too long because we actually don't have that long today.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know I'm stalling, so we don't have enough time to talk about severance.

[Chris Ryan]

I am currently being served a ton of Japanese, like, nighttime in Japan content.

[Andy Greenwald]

We switched identities.

[Chris Ryan]

Lots of, like, yeah, the, like, empty bar. Packed like. Like alleys full of bars that seeming are seemingly empty at 1am or whatever. And then Blade Runner music playing under it. And I'm just like, this is literally the fucking best cinema I've ever seen in my life.

[Andy Greenwald]

But do you remember there's no way.

[Chris Ryan]

This can be as cool as it looks. And there's just like a guy smoking a cigarette. Like, it's just so good.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, you know. You know during the pandemic, when we did the podcast remotely, we were doing it on Zoom and I was spending a lot of time driving. I did. I had my separate office then that I had rented in Hollywood, right near where we used to. Here we go. You're giving me shit about that off mike. You've been giving me some troubles about that. I rented. I brilliantly rented an off mic.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm like, oh, I bought a. I bought a dvd. And he's like, must be nice.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're like, I had a cold glass of Sprite the other day. I'm like, well, well, Mr. Monopoly, good to be king. I rented an office next to where we recorded the podcast for many years in anticipation.

[Chris Ryan]

Not your best decision.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, no, not just that financially, but like, in terms of just location.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I thought you could just stroll over.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would just stroll over. Never recorded there again.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Anyway, I did spend much of that time. Yeah, working on scripts, but also watching just YouTube videos of people taking night ferries to Hokkaido. So I do think something has switched with us. That is great content.

[Chris Ryan]

Can we take a night ferry to Doncaster right now?

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, I see you're all business, but.

[Chris Ryan]

I just want to get this out on the record. I basically, since Friday night, been dying to do this podcast with you. And I was like basically going to do it by myself. If you hadn't watched this, is that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Why you kept your distance at dinner on Saturday? You just wanted to like.

[Chris Ryan]

I think if I remember correctly, we did have dinner on Saturday and at the end of it I came up to you. I was just like, Adolescence makes the pit look like friends. You have fun tomorrow. Adolescence is a show on Netflix. It's four episodes. It comes from Jack Thorne, who is incredibly prolific English writer who has done things on the sort of mainstream end as big as Harry Potter and the Cursed Child on stage.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, do you know about that?

[Chris Ryan]

And the Stranger Things Play and tons of like big screen adaptations. But is also incredibly dedicated to writing social realism tv. Just making limited series that tackle issues that he is interested in. In England, he collaborated with the actor Stephen Graham, who's also seen on screen right now in A Thousand Blows, which me and Manzoukas talked about a couple of weeks ago and we still have not hit, but I know you've checked out.

[Andy Greenwald]

He also had a another rip from the headlines miniseries on Netflix last month with Robert Carlisle and White Lotus. Amy Lou Wood.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Very prolific.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So he is an incredibly prolific writer who has tackled a lot of big issues in his time. I'm like pretty familiar with him. I know he's got to start on Skins. You know, he is kind of like in the one man industry. Russell Davies, Taylor Sheridan, kind of like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I just put a personal opinion and say to hear the reverence with which you are speaking about a guy who has managed to balance personal projects with Harry Potter is really inspiring.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, you're seen.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you for that, people. I think if you were online at all this weekend or if you checked out Netflix this weekend, you probably couldn't have missed some mention of adolescence. It's gotten very, very, very, very strong reviews. It is the number one show on Netflix currently. And I'll say this for my part. Yeah, within a few moments of this show starting and I, I've finished it. This is why I watch television and why I podcast about tv. Yeah, I feel like this happens once a year if you're lucky, maybe twice if you're having a great year. Obviously, Andy and I love talking about all the traditional networks. They're big stars on their big shows that we kind of have anticipated and gotten prepared for. And we know White Lotus is coming or we know Last of Us is coming, or we know industry is coming back and we're ready and we're ready and ready. But industry is a really Good example of a show like this where sometimes you turn on your TV and it takes flight and like, you get introduced to people that you haven't met before. Jack Thorne has a oft quoted aphorism about television being an empathy box. This idea that you can, over the course of these long form stories, find humanity in people that you haven't met before, that you may be in issues that you aren't familiar with or don't really have time to unpack at the level of these shows do. And I was absolutely floored by this on every level. Not only as a person who is horrified by, like, what's happening in, in the world, but also like as a person who just wants to see incredible work being done. Shout out to Netflix for putting this out. I'm so happy this is a big hit. It's my favorite thing I've seen this year.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

Astonishing. So we can talk a little bit about. I know you saw the first episode. Take me through how you're feeling about it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. So I would say thank you for the strong shovel. Thanks to our buddy Tyler for paying my valet. But the same moment you were telling me about this, but I think it worked out for all of us. Maybe not him. I did watch the first episode. I will be watching the next three episodes, maybe in time for our second show of the week. But this is a chance to sort of get people amped up about it. I'll come out and say the obvious thing first. This is not hereditary. You were treating me with kid gloves to the point where I do appreciate this. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I was like, if you don't want to watch it, I understand. Because of what this is about. We'll get into that.

[Andy Greenwald]

It is not that my perception of this show, even just from a few headlines, a few social media things, was that it was going to be an absolute meat grinder of an experience emotionally. Because it is about a child, both in peril and potentially a child who is capable of great violence. It's about a kid who is, in the opening moments of the first episode, accused of a hideous crime. And it follows in tracking shots what happens next procedurally.

[Chris Ryan]

Series of one and emotionally shot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it is. I was, for whatever reason, there were certain buzzwords or a sense of it, I thought that it was actually like a tracking the act of violence as opposed to what happens afterwards. And what sort of support net, safety net, cultural net is there to catch when things like this occur? I found it absolutely riveting and emotionally engaging, but I did not find it painful to Watch it is not that. So I feel like if there's anyone who listens who's like me. I don't know. There is.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I've had a bunch of friends who were. I can't. I gotta tap out just based on like what the line is. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

At least through one and that could change. I did not find that to be the case. I found it to be so. This is a strange thing to say about a television show, but plain spoken, the camera is turned on and as you said, the camera does not turn off. I'll also say as someone who is often on the microphone of this podcast, speaking against bold aesthetic directorial choices, this is the least. This is the most unobtrusive oner I could possibly imagine. I definitely was watching to see where the sneaky cuts were.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if there were any.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean you can see behind the scenes videos of them attaching a camera, a cameraman holding a camera and then the camera is also on a drone and he lets go of the camera and it follows and they done. You know there's a, there's a scene in the second episode where they go through a window and it's like. I don't really know how that I mean happened.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, like let, let's say this instead that like often particularly I want to say in television when you see an autourish tracking shot that can be a sometimes fatal or sometimes just distracting misallocation of resources. Not just that the director or whomever is taking up is doing something purely for ego. It's just that successful television productions are equal footed collaborations between so many departments and when you sort of mess with that ratio things can tip. And what's beautiful about this show through one is that it feels like a really, really, really grounded and empathetic and inclusive collaboration between Jack Thorne, who you mentioned, Stephen Graham, who is the hardest working man in show business at this point, who is the actor and also the co writer and co creator with Jack Thorne and Philip Barentini who is the director who did this type of show with Stephen Graham on Boiling Point, a show that I've talked briefly about before. This feels like incredibly creative people at the height of their technical and empathetic powers being like let's, let's all walk in the same direction towards an investigation of a thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So you would be role within your rights to say why does it need to be one take and. Or why do these need to be one or shots. And there is a, I think a. It's A formal gambit that actually defines the experience of watching the show. And it also informs how you process the information that you're being given. To use the first episode as an example. So what happens is it opens and a 13 year old boy is arrested and accused of murder by the English police. So he's taken into a station and because we're never cutting, you are in the van with the kid. As he rides to the station, you go through the mundanity, the mundanity of like all the paperwork that has to be done, all the questions that need to be asked, all the questions that need to be repeated, and then the slow process of the family arriving, a lawyer being brought in as a public defender. And we follow the police as they are also chatting about this. And the thing that I think I started to feel as we went on is first of all, the dissonance between something being the worst thing that's ever happened in their family's lives together. To do it Tuesday for the other people in the building.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The different levels of emotional engagement that different people in the criminal justice system have with what's happening so obviously on the family level, it's like utter heartbreak and confusion and desperation. But for the public defender, it's kind of like, I'm here to do a job. I'm not gonna sugarcoat what's going on with you, but I'm also like, I need to go do my paperwork and I need to go grab coffee and I need to go do this.

[Andy Greenwald]

And for what it's worth, that collision is also what powers the Pit in a really compelling way. The collision between slightly hardened, varying degrees of hardened professionals and people who have suddenly gone through the looking glass into a world that they never expected to be in. It's.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So I don't want to give away too much about the show because I think it's something that I want people to discover. And frankly, I'm glad I didn't read much about it as I watched because the third episode especially was so astonishing that I'm glad I didn't know anything about it. I will say that Aaron Doherty, who's also in A Thousand Blows, makes an appearance on the third episode of the show and is, I mean, making a case for having one of the great acting years on TV in a long time between Thousand Blows and this. I was curious how you felt about where the first episode ended up. So for spoilers, for the first episode, even.

[Andy Greenwald]

Light spoilers.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, light spoilers. But I think it's important because obviously, as an audience. We are put more or less in the POV of the family for much of the first episode. Their confusion. They're clinging to this idea that their child is innocent, that this is some sort of mistake. And then by the end of the episode, the father, the son Jamie, the father, played by Stephen Graham, named Eddie, are two police officers played by Ashley Walters, who people may recognize from Top.

[Andy Greenwald]

Boy or from so Solid Crew.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

I did not know that. He's awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

Faye Marseille, who is obviously in Game of Thrones.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Andor.

[Chris Ryan]

And Andor. They present the evidence, starting with some. Something feel. Some feels somewhat circumstantial up into. I mean, video evidence of this child.

[Andy Greenwald]

London's reputation for being. England's reputation for being a CCTV kind of country is. Yeah, a lot of footage of me buying Haribos.

[Chris Ryan]

This kid killing. Killing a young girl with a knife. And so you are basically confronted with something of your biases, you know, as like. Cause you're. Cause you're watching this kid and you're like, well, he's so sweet. Look at him crying in this van. Like, look at his life ending right in front of his eyes, like he couldn't have done it. Or maybe this is a mistake. Or we're gonna find out that this is a miscarriage of justice and that's what this show is about. And it's not.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, let's think about what you said at the beginning, which is Jack Thorne's idea of the TV as an empathy box. And it doesn't mean, though, that it's just set up and you turn on the box. What it means is you can. There are dials on it. And I think about those dials a lot, particularly when trying to wrap my head around the sort of soft power of TV creation. And it's relevant for this. It's relevant in ways that we talked about last week with the Pit. And it's relevant with severance too, which is when you are in a creative space, like in a writer's room or planning a season or a series, you have all the answers. It is your job, you and your writing staff, or even your writing partner, or even if it's just one person, you know the whole story. And it is your job to know at 360 degrees back to front, every detail what people were thinking about or what people might think about something, even if they're not on camera reacting to it. The really challenging part then, and this is especially true for mystery box shows or just mysteries, is how and when to Reveal that information and how best to deploy it in the service of an engaging TV show. Right. So you'd never want to give everything away, but there's so much power in. As severance, perhaps learned too well, withholding. And I think that this first episode is a masterclass in that for exactly the reasons you say, you are at once disoriented, but also in a very strange way, comforted by the guardrails of a system of processes of people who are reasonably kind to this kid, because that is their job, right. To just.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I think that the kid is awesome. Is sympathetic, empathetic character.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, yeah. And this kid, Owen Cooper, is the actor.

[Chris Ryan]

Honestly, dude, extraordinary. Holy shit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Where do they find this?

[Chris Ryan]

I have no idea. But, like, what he does in three, I'm like, is this what it's like to see, you know, like a great actor who's going to be around for 30?

[Andy Greenwald]

This is like DiCaprio on Growing Pains. Yeah. I don't know if you remember, but he was really, really memorable. But. But anyway, do you get what I mean in the sense that to the. It's not just so much work went into diagramming and choreographing the direction, the camera work in this first episode, but an equal amount of work appears to have been given towards the emotional load bearing and the revelation. So that every step along the way, including these small moments that do stand out of like Stephen Graham grabbing the attorney and saying, I don't know what I'm doing here. I mean, and then the show constantly reminds US it's like 6:43 in the morning, leading up to a moment of just a hammer dropping, which is how that first episode ends. I thought it was masterful. Yeah, masterful.

[Chris Ryan]

And even then, that moment between the father and the son where he at first is like, basically turns his back on him and then finally is just like, well, we only have each other here.

[Andy Greenwald]

And there's like this embrace as someone. As Ashley Walters, who plays the DI Luke Bascom, says, you know, in the interview prior to that. All right, I get it. Everyone here is just trying to do the best job they can.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that's all anybody's doing. I also found it not to be too ripped from the headlines. I did find it, and this might unravel in future episodes, strangely comforting to be at sea with a system that appeared to be working, just a working public system. Not saying that the police's case is airtight or whatever. I'm not commenting on that. But there was a public facing responsibility presented by the cops, at least in the first episode, that I found very refreshing in a country where public facing systems appear to be degrading.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Where they were like, you know, in terms of like getting a lawyer, getting representation, explaining step by step getting the cornflakes, which I did not know were called cornies.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, that, the, that, that net, that CSP Net is, is not necessarily. I think when you start to find out more about why Owen may have become what he became.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It. It's evident that the people who are trying to keep that safety net taught and keep people from falling through it are. Are woefully understaffed and under resourced. And under resourced. I want to talk more about this with you. So, like, we'll. We'll hit it. If not Wednesday, maybe we'll hit it next week. I really hope people watch it. It's. It's just a really meaningful show to me. I think I. I think I. I think that there is something of a blast of fresh air because when you watch a lot of stuff that's asking you to infer human behavior. Not infer human behavior.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But infer like human drama from a distance. Because it's either high genre, like hard sci fi, kind of a escapist fantasy, but it's like. But it's also about class. And it's like, no, this is just literally about class. Or it's about the pain we pass down through generations of families or about whether or not people without fully developed brains should be exposed to the information that our kids are exposed to on their phones. And that kind of comes up in the second episode. It is, it is like really kind of a. It was centering for me to realize like, oh, this is what this medium is capable of.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And I think that it's an interesting debate. Not debate. It's just an interesting ongoing conversation for our podcast right now because we've been really obviously taken with the Pit. We're very compelled by this show and we've been talking about it in terms of industry sentiment.

[Chris Ryan]

Landman. We were obviously very taken by him.

[Andy Greenwald]

By the way. I don't want to get off track here, but I did have a dream that there was a secret season finale of Landman that we hadn't talked about.

[Chris Ryan]

No, we didn't. We didn't miss a man.

[Andy Greenwald]

I may off mic tell you about what happened in this episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, did you see Sam Elliot's going to be in season two?

[Andy Greenwald]

Is he playing the same character he played in 1883?

[Chris Ryan]

I hope so.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wait, before we get off track, which I'm eager to do, because by the way, it was renewed. Right?

[Chris Ryan]

Of course it's renewed.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know, but I thought that was a fait accompli. But it didn't get announced until this week. Anyway, we've been talking about it in terms of an industry story again and again about TV's retrenchment from some of the directorial or auteurist or cinematic ambition of the last decade and just like getting back to meat and potatoes storytelling. But that's not necessarily the whole story. Because I think that what we're really responding to when we see shows like the Pit, when we see shows like adolescence and even certain elements of something like paradise, is. I don't think it's. I mean, I'm not trying to lump them today.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I mean, you're concerned about climate change.

[Andy Greenwald]

What I'm trying to say is it's not necessarily. It's just too easy to say, ah, this is just a return to old fashioned storytelling, basic storytelling, broadcast storytelling, middle brow storytelling. I think that I am actually for a kind of turn back towards some engagement with whether it's social realism or the world as it is, as opposed to, boy, we really are in a dystopia or in a really sexy, incestuous fantasy guns and dragons world or whatever. Like, I think that there's an element of it that is reminding us of the value of that kind of engaged.

[Chris Ryan]

Storytelling being here now.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I don't want to be misunderstood here like the greatest examples of the shows of the last 10 years. There are human moments in all of them. There's even a human moment that I found very moving in episode nine of Severance from the season. There you go. And I'll gotta keep listening to find out what it was. No, But I.

[Chris Ryan]

In 38 minutes, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

Get ready, guys. No, but, but I. I do think I do find that very exciting. And of course, the larger caveat, which is TV is enormous and it is capable of a lot of different types of storytelling. What's exciting about adolescence, even more so than the shows we're mentioning, is that it is wildly ambitious in terms of subject matter, theme, emotion, tone and filmmaker. Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

So I'm just so happy that it's doing so well. And I'm so happy that Netflix is. Is. I really. I'm not trying to like glaze Netflix. It's just like. It's awesome that that's the number one show at Netflix right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, there's a. There is. I tried to articulate this with black doves. And I don't know if I was ever successful in doing it, but I think that there is a way to engage with the parameters of Netflix's algorithm, with its priorities, and just with how it presents storytelling that is positive. It is not running from the next episode in five seconds. You know, it is not running from the gourmet cheeseburger. Let's be noisy. Let's make a top 10 around the world. And what you're asking me about how the first episode of Adolescence ends, that's a really smart use of how Netflix is going to be presenting this show. Yeah, it is a quiet moment that is so devastating that you're almost too stunned to even hit stop. You need to keep going. And another good use of that is. I mean, again, I haven't seen them all yet, but I think four episodes. Nice.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Well, I mean, at the end of the first one, my wife and I were like, I think we need to watch With Love with Meghan Markle to like chill the fuck out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you? Yeah. Did it make you. Did it give you hope that some people.

[Chris Ryan]

The first one is like, literally something out of Mulholland Drive. But the.

[Andy Greenwald]

The first episode of Meghan Markle, I.

[Chris Ryan]

Just felt like I was losing my mind watching Markle, but. So we skipped to the Mindy Kaling.

[Andy Greenwald]

Episode and that grounded you.

[Chris Ryan]

I was more just like. Honestly, like, I find this very soothing to watch this woman make a frittata.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just thought you were pairing them in the sense that, like, boy, it seems rough in the English penal system. At least some good people can escape it. Yeah, at least there's a chance.

[Chris Ryan]

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[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk about your fucking boy Sam.

[Andy Greenwald]

Rockwell okay, so White Lotus Episode 5?

[Chris Ryan]

Uh huh. There was had been some talk about this is the one, get ready.

[Andy Greenwald]

But there was also rumors right, that there was going to be a guest star. Where did this come from and talk me through this?

[Chris Ryan]

Probably Prestige TV podcast. I think that they had maybe mentioned it. I don't know, I don't know. But I think that there had been some chatter that there were more cameos this season and that we should be on the lookout for Episode five.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, great. Okay you were on the lookout.

[Chris Ryan]

I was actually chatting with our producer, Kya before you got in. And let me just posit this to you. Was the Sam Rockwell scene in this new episode of White Lotus so good?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That it kind of cast the other parts of this season a little bit in a dimmer light because it was like, oh, obviously everything has to have, like dynamics where it goes quiet, loud, quiet, loud or whatever. But was this. This felt made me feel like I was like taking flight.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I mean? The show itself was actually going some profound to some profound place. Not unlike some of the characters who are in Thailand looking for spiritual transcendence, looking for pure love, looking for whatever they're looking for. This show itself kind of shed some kind of. Yeah, it's White Lotus.

[Andy Greenwald]

We're rich.

[Chris Ryan]

We're hanging out at the pool. Like, we're kind of getting fucked up and trying to heal ourselves. That thing a. It was just an incredible piece of two people acting with one another.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And an amazing piece of writing, but I actually thought quite profound when he's talking about, I wanted to be the lady fucking me. But you know, like, all that stuff actually like clicked for me. What'd you think?

[Andy Greenwald]

How many Meghan Markle's did you watch after that speech?

[Chris Ryan]

I. I'm actually referring to episode five of Meghan Markle.

[Andy Greenwald]

I got tune in.

[Chris Ryan]

Rockwell shows up.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I. I'm eager to talk about this with you because I thought this was a fascinating episode of tv, and particularly of the White Lotus. I thought it was a hugely disappointing episode. Okay. Except for that scene. So first of all, let's just talk about that scene on its own first. That was really thrilling for it to be Rockwell in the lobby just because those boys should always be together.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like those boys, like sometimes when you. Especially with a guest star, even a slightly famous guest star, when they show up and you have to just assume a backstory.

[Chris Ryan]

There's a little Elliott Gould, George Siegel vibe to it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Billion percent. That is your cast for the California Split remake in Bangkok. And like those guys clear have had some nights where they probably should have been drinking chamomile tea. So that was thrilling and exciting. And it did feel like the show was finally elevating a little bit. I would also argue that the show felt like it was elevating a little bit when we saw the bright lights of Bangkok's Chinatown reflected in the taxi window with Walton Goggins in it. Because Walton Goggins story could have been a pretty good miniseries. That is so far, even though nothing has happened in that story either. That storyline is head and shoulders above everything else on season three of the White Lotus. And it is a strange thing. So far, again, not much has happened writ large where one field trip storyline feels weighed down by the hotel. And that's my sort of perception of how the season is feeling. That scene was, does the White Lotus.

[Chris Ryan]

Have a White Lotus Hotel problem?

[Andy Greenwald]

Look at that. You're so good at interviewing.

[Chris Ryan]

I still enjoy watching this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

We'll get into the other plots, but this was one of those things where I'm like, yeah, Mike White cracked his knuckles and was like, I'm gonna take a big bite out of all of this. Yeah, I'm gonna give Rockwell something to do that Rockwell can do better than almost anyone. I'm gonna give him a speech that is so long and so engaging and so deeply confusing that all I'm gonna ask Walton Goggins to do is to just react. And both of them are at their best in doing it. And the weirdness of it and the heightened surreality of them being in a place we didn't know their relationship. We don't know what. And we kind of now know what Rick's doing there. And we could have guessed what was in the bag, but it gave.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, after that Rockwell speech, who knows what's in the bag?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's great. It just gave the show the kind of vertiginous jet lag, smeary. What are we talking about and what are we looking for? Feeling that. I think a show about people traveling, hiding, or seeking is always in search of. And it was just killer. Just great actors, too, at the top of their game.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think that the speech that he gives, the anecdote or whatever, is it like an allegory for writing, you know, this idea of. Cause I think a lot of this season has been about pushing excess to the point of, like, purification anyway. And it's interesting. Different characters have different attitudes about what they're doing there and what kind of experience they want to have. I find it very fascinating that, you know, like, as Saxon's father becomes essentially a Larazepam addict, like, he's like, I'm, you know, my body's a temple. But then takes MDMA that night. But I was kind of going over the Rockwell speech in my head, and it is about disappearing into other people and somehow finding out something about yourself as you try on all these different identities and roles and become feel different ways and being made to feel and, you know, it not Only is it funny and. And exciting and surprising, but it's so profound, I think. And I wonder whether somebody like, you know, writing can be very workmanlike, but writing can also hit this kind of like, nirvana sometimes where you're like, yes, I've inhabited someone else here.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that's really, really smartly observed and really interesting, especially for a Mike White show, because I think that one of the things that is really appealing about his work generally is you can feel his good faith, earnest questing in everything that he does. He is working on himself through what he writes and what he's interested in exploring. And I think he probably has asked himself these questions at times, particularly with the enormous, you know, the brighter fame that he's gotten through the White Lotus, the brighter spotlight on him and his work, the greater opportunities, money, whatever, to explore and push what he's interested in. And that what he. One of the things he. And that he's interested in writing about people from different levels of society that are different from his own experience.

[Chris Ryan]

So I think that's probably why he likes playing Survivor.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, right, exactly. So I think that there's. I think that that's a very, very smart read of it. I also think, again, because I think that this is a artist who has been working on himself and working on stuff for decades. When I say that this season has been disappointing, I am not throwing out the whole project. I'm interested in it. And one of the things that makes me interested is what you just said. That if we think about the Sam Rockwell character as voicing some aspect of Mike White's creative psyche, which is just like, you know, I kept trying more and more extreme versions of, let's say, writing or story or plot. In the end, I had to just sort of let go with all of it and sit with the problem, because that's. At the end of all of it, you're just still left alone with yourself. Is that why this season feels so particularly stuck in neutral, where none of the characters have advanced at all outside of themselves in five episodes? Is that in a sense, like a meta commentary on the project writ large? Because I am. I was really, really surprised how completely devoid of tangible or compelling stakes this episode was, despite being intercut, despite there.

[Chris Ryan]

Being a near suicide. We have a gun in the wild. We now have two guns in the wild. We have Belinda and Greg hunting one another, essentially.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, more or less, at least aware of one another.

[Andy Greenwald]

But her bigger peril this week was whether there was a lizard in her room.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, but then there's also all this betrayal going on on the island between. Right. So why are you Shark?

[Andy Greenwald]

I guess. I mean, I found it so. Well, I guess I have two things. We could go storyline by storyline, and we probably should talk about each one. But there's also. I think there might be another reason why it's feeling the way it's feeling this season. And we don't know this yet. Five episodes out of how many?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's like nine, isn't it?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it's nine. And I think that that continues a trend of every season being a little bit longer than the previous season. I was shocked to remember. So, okay, so 8. But yes, that is every season is one episode longer. I did not remember that. The first season was six episodes and the second season was seven episodes. The fifth episode of the second season was called that's Amore. And that's when Tom Hollander invites Tanya and Portia to Palermo. They're already out on the endgame of that season. And I remember we were watching that episode and we were like, where are they going? What does this have to do with a larger story or the murder mystery from the beginning, but we felt some sense of momentum in it. This season has more episodes, and maybe these people in these moments deserve more time spent to live with them. But Piper telling her parents at dinner that she wants to do a gap year near. In a monastery near one of the most luxurious resorts in the world did not strike me as particularly compelling television. Now Tim Ratliff is going through his own thing. So he's monosyllabic and has a gun in his pocket. Parker Posey did some of her best work so far in the series with her reactions and why would she want to live in Taiwan? But that ultimately did not strike me as that big of a deal, frankly, for a series. Similarly, these three women partying with some Russians and are they gonna hook up with them or is Leslie Bibb gonna do a shot or not? That.

[Chris Ryan]

Wasn't that a very aesthetically pleasing night?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's shot beautifully intercut. There's a movie party.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a lot of fun. Watching the dancing, I could see kind of like, this should be in a normal or, like, stable group of friends. It's like, let's. Let's get Lori. Like, have. Let's get her late. Like, we gotta get. Have a fun night.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

We gotta, like, go out. She needs to pick me up. We're in relationships, but she's divorced. Like, let's go. And obviously Jacqueline needs To feed the beast. When she's not getting attention from her partner back in the States and is suspecting him of, I guess, sort of cheating on him. I can't really.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or just ghosting.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Like, she's like, no, I need to be the star. The star.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, totally. But that dynamic.

[Chris Ryan]

I got it. I know. Watch tv.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. But also, we went out Saturday night. I know what it's like among friends.

[Chris Ryan]

Has one shot in their 40s.

[Andy Greenwald]

What I mean is those fault lines in that. In that friend group have been static since they got off the line.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I think that's what you're reacting to, and I think it's what I'm reacting to. There's a certain that even as the groups overlap, even as Saxon and Lachlan go hang out with Chelsea and Chloe, even as Jacquelyn and Laurie and Kate go out into town and with Valentin and his friends, that they remain the same.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And there was no, like, I think that. So, for example, and it's maybe. I don't know, is it useful or not to compare it to past seasons, but that episode five of season two, the Harper, Ethan, Cameron, I mean, that plotline, I think that's the episode where they went out wine tasting. And again, there were four live wires in that group who could cross like a game of Tic Tac Toe in any number of ways. And we didn't know which way it was going to play out. The three friends, those fault lines remained completely static. And had it been like, guess what? Laurie is gonna hook up with all three guys or what's Leslie Bibbs character's name? Kate. Kate. What if she surprised the other two by coming out of her shell in a different way?

[Chris Ryan]

For Medicare for all?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's good. You know what? She just thinks there are a lot of people at the Department of Education who. No, look, I think that would have been more. That could have been more compelling or more surprising. Now, I'm not telling Mike White how to do his job. This is clearly a choice I do want. I'm gonna throw one other. I'm gonna throw out one concern troll that we'll revisit at the end of the season.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

The first two seasons of the show were written with enormous haste, time, deadline, and production restrictions, particularly the first season. This season was delayed because of the strike. But also, I think you could assume, even though he famously writes very fast, Mike White had more time for the season than any other season.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sometimes that's not a good thing. And then taking so much time on screen for some of these storylines might also not be the best thing. I don't know. The Rick and Chelsea storyline, I think, is the most compelling. They're now separate from each other. And Amy Lu Wood's face and her reactions so far, other than Walton Goggins, I think is the breakout star of this season, but her arc going respectfully.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's Piper Posey. Parker Posey's accent is the breakout story.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's true. That was kind of a. That was a hipster pick, you know, as Shield would say. But the Chelsea storyline, being on this boat with these boys and doing ecstasy, where fireworks go off is essentially one of like, oh, I'm worried. As she says, I'm worried about Rick, but I guess I'll have a good time, but I'm worried. And that she's waiting for Rick to do something, just like we're waiting for Rick to do something. So there's a lot of anticipation. Would all this go away if the Netflix button that said next episode in 5 seconds pop up? Would that. Is this. Is this season better paced for that? I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I don't. I think that there's. I would have to go back and do that overlay you just did with the first two seasons, because I. It's been a while since I watched Hawaii, obviously, and I remember Italy quite clearly, but Italy also had just a lot more madcap shit happening. You know, it felt much more. I don't know of scene to scene. There was more of vitality, and there's something a little bit like static, what you're saying. It's not even the fault lines. It's even like. Even though the filmmaking has been wonderful this season, and I actually really, you know, like, it's funny that you're like, oh, Chelsea and Rick are the breakout story. And I'm like, my actual interest is in Jacqueline, Kate and Laurie. Like, I'm fascinated by his portrayal of these quote unquote lifelong friends who obviously have a lot of, like, issues with one another. But I always leave episodes feeling like, what did I just. Was there not enough of one of.

[Andy Greenwald]

These groups of people quite long? I think maybe the way to articulate it is we the audience at this point. And I think that you and I are particularly patient watchers of this show. Just as we've said many times, we like being on vacation.

[Chris Ryan]

People may disagree with that, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but the audience, I think, writ large, is waiting for a shoe to drop, a revelation to happen. Someone's being honest. But the Characters are waiting for that too. Within the Ratliff family.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a cast, it's a group of characters waiting for a gun to go off.

[Andy Greenwald]

It is. We shouldn't. The audience and the characters shouldn't be waiting to find out who's shooting. You know, like Tim still hasn't.

[Chris Ryan]

The best version of White Lotus is when you forget there's a body at all.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, yes.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I mean.

[Andy Greenwald]

I totally agree with that. And it's not for the cause.

[Chris Ryan]

That first season you're like, oh, yeah, right. There's a body getting loaded into the. But who cares? This is so incredible.

[Andy Greenwald]

Peel off certain characters that I do feel warmly towards and I'm interested in from this episode. Guy talks journey this episode as he finds out a gun is stolen. He has access to England's CCTV system and sees that Tim has the gun. He lurks around, sweats, waits, says, I think you have something that I lost. And Tim says, I don't know what you're talking about. That's Guy Talk's arc this episode. Tim's arc is, I have a gun in my pocket. My daughter wants to do a gap year. I think I might kill myself. I'm not going to.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh.

[Andy Greenwald]

He gets interrupted and I don't still don't tell anyone anything. I mean, his. Jason Isaacs is doing so much with so little. It is a pretty incredible performance. And his breakdown, which he then immediately retracts about being like, there's so many expectations on me. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Is so fantastically delivered. Do you feel that way the two every Monday at 10am yes.

[Chris Ryan]

When you fire up adolescents.

[Andy Greenwald]

When I watch the show you wanted me to watch over the weekend right before sitting down with you. No, like I'm eager. Regardless of what happens plot wise when Jason Isaacs and Parker Posey get a like, let's clear the decks here scene. I'm psyched when they do their version of Streetcar or whatever that it's gonna look like, can't wait, that's on tap. We know that. But in terms of like delivering on promise, I mean, I guess we get some brothers kissing, which you know, you and I are fascinated by. We're always interested on, as you said, how things.

[Chris Ryan]

So that's how they do things in that family.

[Andy Greenwald]

The two only children are just principal Ed Rooney watching the White Lotus season after season. But even you know, that was again, that was all foreplay. It was all buildup. Not just between the brothers, but I mean between the four of the people on the boat, they want to have fun. Gary's capable of killing someone. Belinda is just lying. Is just waiting for that shoe to drop one way.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, for her son to arrive. But yeah, has sort of. It seems like Belinda. That's a good example. Belinda's arc. As far as, like, I'm here to learn more about the healing processes that you guys employ here so that I can bring them back to Hawaii. Seems to have somewhat fallen by the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wayside, as although she's getting some healing.

[Chris Ryan]

It could be physician, heal thyself. You know what I mean? Or healer, heal.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was happy that she got that.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's do severance really quickly. Obviously, the finale airs Thursday. I don't know that we will be talking about the finale on our Thursday show. So people have to wait for a few days.

[Andy Greenwald]

We have to record early.

[Chris Ryan]

And I know you guys can't wait. I know you guys are just like these dudes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Another week with my friends talking about.

[Chris Ryan]

My friends still are just like, when is it watch gonna come out?

[Andy Greenwald]

We couldn't be. We couldn't be more outy.

[Chris Ryan]

You said that there was one moment in this episode of Severance that touched you. What was it?

[Andy Greenwald]

When the credits rolled? Okay. No, I. There's no reason to be snarky here. I really like the Zach Cherry Merit Weaver scenes.

[Chris Ryan]

I did not.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, good. Let's have a little. Let's have a little conflict. You know, we're too Lachlan and Saxon. You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

Just.

[Andy Greenwald]

I like. Because I kind of didn't like. I have a larger criticism of it, but what I liked in the Merritt Weaver. Let me just leave it at the Merritt Weaver part. I like that she is playing a real person who is, through her face and her performance, reacting to the emotional truth of an insane world.

[Chris Ryan]

Does it bother you that Merritt Weaver seems to be a real person, and then when he goes to the train station, everybody is dressed like it's Mad Men.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Everything else bothers me.

[Chris Ryan]

What is the disconnect there? Like, what is how. Like, that's. That, to me, is something that I feel like I need to go to a cognitive behavioral therapist about. Because for some reason, like, that's been screaming in my head, the train station since I watched this episode. The fact that there are certain elements of this show that seem to exist in a recognizable reality to ours, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

With, like, this subterranean, increasingly fewer.

[Chris Ryan]

But then when Irving and Burt go to the train station, it seems to be taking place in, like, a 1950s folky. Like, everybody's Here at the Utica train station.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, like, also, am I wrong?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, did you notice that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And in both of those scenes, though, there also felt like a couple scenes got cut or missing.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, that was. I think that's what I'm reacting to with the Dylan plot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That is that he just keeps walking into rooms and being like, what the fuck? Fuck you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which one? Which Dylan?

[Chris Ryan]

The innie. Dylan seems to be doing that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. But also he's now just fully in love with a person he's met twice and then is willing to kill himself over it. Right. And quit metaphorically. Now, I don't want to, like, again, I don't want to make like a bad faith argument here. Like, I'm sure they had a vibrant. I'm sure they had many vibrant writers room discussions. And it very well may be that there were no more scenes to play out because of the construction of the show. Like, they're just going to be sitting in the Adiquarium room again. Like, there's no. What other beats are there?

[Chris Ryan]

Why aren't they working? Like, I know they don't work anymore. This is. I know this is. I, I don't mean to sound like.

[Andy Greenwald]

An Hit me, but I love it when you do.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's just say whatever Cold harbor is, which we have, like, I. Let's just say it's a, whatever. It's a code that they're finishing to resurrect or clone people or transfer consciousness into other people, whatever it is. And it's apparently has a deadline, as we find out in the beginning of this episode. Hey, it's the day. Today is the day. And we haven't had Mark in the office in several days. Dylan seems to be primarily interested in taking advantage of what was supposed to be a, like, hey, great job. We think you've got a lot of potential here. Because of that, we're going to offer you this, this, this privilege that other people don't get that seems to have completely way later destroyed him. He's now alone and decides to quit. So Dylan is quit heli. Is now back on her revolutionary shit and running around. Never is in the computer area. It's staffed by Milchick, who is now, like, also rebelling against the management, and Ms. Wong, who he sends away. There's Drummond, who seems to be the only person in charge of security in all of Lumen, even though they have this massive complex building.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. They're only six people there.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Like what? I just don't understand. Like, I, I, I think that there's like a practical thing that bothers me about. Like if these people are living under the authoritarian thumb of this faceless corporation that's doing evil, why can they get away with so much stuff?

[Andy Greenwald]

So this is me doing my best. Emperor Palpatine saying, good, good. Let it flow through you. It's freeing. There's so much power on this side. The other scene that I semi enjoyed was Milchick and Drummond for one reason alone, because it was the only moment in this entire episode when a character was honest with another character and he said eat shit. And he couldn't even say that directly at first. Otherwise. And those are two good actors who are playing a scene strongly. Otherwise the entire episode is just a series of obfuscations and frustration.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, all the stuff of waiting in the woods. No, we have to wait until night. But we're not going to talk at all. But Devon is completely bought into what Cavell is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, the realignment will happen suddenly. Except it won't. That was three episodes ago. It'll happen in the finale. So there are two scenes. I know we're pressed for time and we actually do apparently do have something to say about this episode that I think highlights my struggles with this. And look, we've talked about it for weeks. We'll talk about it in the finale. There are just baked in construction issues that they've had to deal with. And one of them is there is nowhere for that first season to go. If they are being monitored 24 7, then those in characters are completely in handcuffs. So they had to come up with hall passes and then Mark doesn't show up for work and then Helly's a revolutionary and there's a child just to get. Or we just stop paying attention to their expectations. Cause otherwise there's nothing for them to do. Within the structure that they created for themselves, these are corners that they creatively and ambitiously painted themselves into that they've done a lot of work clearly to try and undo. And that's a tough place for any show to be in, particularly going into a second season. But there are two scenes in particular that kind of summed it up for me. One is we drive into the yet another frozen wilderness to meet with Cobell, who this is a moment when they could actually ask each other any number of questions and they don't. Because this is a television show that needs to hold onto its secrets until the finale. Fine, we get it. We bought our ticket for the ride. What is the most fascinating hammer dropping piece of information delivered in that scene, it is Cobell saying Cold harbor is the case. Who does that land with? The audience of Severance. Not Mark.

[Chris Ryan]

Mark, presumably would be like, isn't that the name of the thing I've been working on?

[Andy Greenwald]

If that was any Mark. But it's not. That's Audi Mark. Those words are meaningless to anyone who's not a fan of the show. Severance. And that's who that scene was talking to. That's really frustrating on a character emotional level. The other thing I would want to point to was the cold open. Ice cold open.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, the egg.

[Andy Greenwald]

So again, I'm never criticizing the show for its aesthetics because it is beautiful. The production design, the direction, all as high as it gets on television. So we see Helly swimming in laps in an indoor pool. I guess what we've learned from that is that she's fit aerobically. Okay. She goes upstairs and she has a very odd breakfast with her father who lives in a big mansion. And she cuts an egg on a very stylized plate and eats the whites. Now, there's been enough egg stuff and fertility stuff to suggest that there's a lot of baby stuff in whatever the. Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

We end this episode at a birthing center.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And we're ending at a birthing center. And so that is. On some level we can. That's the. That's the thought area where this show is going. Where the secrets are. Right. Presumably and increasingly heavy handedly. So we then hear in the way that these weirdo people talk to each other that it's a momentous day and he wishes he hurt his daughter. Ate eggs raw. And then we pull back and dramatically learn that the owner of Lumen lives in a big mansion and it's snowy there and there's a water tower. Tell me if I'm wrong. What other information was given in this scene? What was the purpose of this. This incredible.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I guess that he lives with his daughter. Because I think that the more important part happens towards the end when he comes downstairs and it's. There's an indication where. I don't. I mean, it was the. The implication to me was that we are not certain which Helena or Heli is in the basement that day or is in the facility that day that it's. Heli is acting like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, yeah. Because you have the scene with Dylan where he's like, no one could tell.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Well, and also just the fact that she tries to use her dual identity against Milchick.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And her father seems so. Like, what if Heli is actually yeah, like, what if they're severing people going out rather than coming in?

[Andy Greenwald]

Whoa.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, about that shit.

[Andy Greenwald]

I appreciate that. That's that point. But do you get what I mean in terms of.

[Chris Ryan]

I completely understand.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. The show is paced and tonally presented as if it's the fucking Book of Revelations.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, as Elvis Costello would say, all this useless beauty.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow, look at you. I did wonder. I mean, TV can be weird when you have these weird, like, synchronicities that definitely are not intentional and are not speaking to each other. When there's the Bert and Irving scene. And it made me think of, say nothing. Just like Dolores driving people.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I can't tell you where you're going.

[Chris Ryan]

It also made me think of Yellowstone, taking people to the train station.

[Andy Greenwald]

But. But, like, again, that scene is banking on our emotional investment in different versions of these men. And then it's sort of smearing it. The suggestion is that Burt knows more. Knows more about the company, understands that they were in love potentially. And. But either. I mean, it could be that I'm not doing my best job watching this, or it could just be that there were scenes missing that could have helped buttress this, but there weren't time for them. Did anything in this episode. I'm turn it back to you before we get out of here. Did anything in this episode, which I think is broadly being received as kind of like a. Whoa. Are they running out of time? Are they setting things up for the finale? This is not where you want to be.

[Chris Ryan]

I think my hope for this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did anything hit you emotionally in this episode?

[Chris Ryan]

Not emotionally. Do hope that what we get is an integrated, reintegrated mark so that we can have, like, a POV character who is essentially the same person. I know that that goes against the sort of premise of the show, but I think to your point about things only mattering to the audience and not to the characters, that has sort of lost its. Its impact for me. So it would be a lot more interesting if this detective scout goes back into the world that he wants so desperately to leave on the inside of Lumen to find his. What? You know, to try and find Gemma. But that's like. That is literally the only thing I don't really know, nor do I particularly care what Cold harbor is. There's not really a likelihood that they're going to come up with an explanation for what Lumen is doing. That cooks my pasta so bad that I'm like, damn, I was wrong about this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

I, I, I'm gonna just double down on what I said last week, which is I think that there's the labor no child birthing center, pun intended, of this season does seem set up to destroy the restrictions of the paradigm that they established in season one. Because they cannot make a show about.

[Chris Ryan]

People sitting at computers.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is upstairs, downstairs, different people sitting at computers. They're gonna break those walls and ceilings down. And that is why we're also seeing hero redemptive narrative arcs for Milchick and for Cobell. And that it is going to be us versus them on a different literally level than we've seen it before, which could, could have better creative returns. I'm open to that.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Let's see.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's see what they wrap it up with. Andy, it's great to see you today.

[Andy Greenwald]

Crazy. Thanks for making me watch tv.

[Chris Ryan]

Thursday we're going to be talking about the Pit and some Philly shows. Deli Boys, Long Bright river and Dope Thief are all out. Maybe Andy will watch some more adolescents. It sounds like he's got a full work week for himself.

[Andy Greenwald]

I've got a busy week.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks to Kaida. Thanks to ct, we are out of here. Talk to you soon.

[Andy Greenwald]

Your teen adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained, one who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you know an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. The new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you.