‘Beef’ Season 2 With Creator Lee Sung Jin. Plus, ‘Euphoria’ Season 3, Episode 3 and ‘House of the Dragon’ S3 Teaser.

Summary

The Watch – April 27, 2026

Episode: ‘Beef’ Season 2 With Creator Lee Sung Jin. Plus, ‘Euphoria’ S3E3 and ‘House of the Dragon’ S3 Teaser.

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Episode Overview

This episode features Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan discussing the latest in prestige TV, including a deep-dive into Euphoria Season 3, Episode 3, their reactions to the House of the Dragon Season 3 teaser, and anticipation for the For All Mankind spinoff, Star City. The highlight is an in-depth interview with Beef creator Lee Sung Jin (Sonny Lee), who shares insights on Season 2’s development, casting, storytelling challenges, and his upcoming work on Marvel’s X-Men.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. TV News: Casting & Trailers

Helena Bonham Carter Leaves 'White Lotus'

• The hosts discuss the high-profile departure of Helena Bonham Carter from White Lotus and speculate on the pressures of fan-driven casting speculation.
  • “It sounds like it wasn’t working... Mike White has an exacting vision.” (Andy, 02:49)
  • “[Bonham Carter] can read... I’m sure she’s an accomplished actress.” (Chris, 03:06)

‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3 Teaser

• The teaser is called out for being essentially a full trailer (“a teaser should not be three minutes long”).
• Excitement centers on anticipated action and new cast member James Norton.
• Playful asides about the show’s narrative focus, including the enigmatic Weirwood tree.
  • “I'm excited because I feel like they have no more room to delay and must get to the fighting on this show.” (Chris, 05:14)
  • “I kind of want to know what that Weirwood tree is thinking... one episode, like bottle episode for the tree’s interiority.” (Andy, 05:36)

For All Mankind Spinoff: ‘Star City’

• Both hosts are surprised by how compelling the trailer is, describing it as “Chernobyl from a Russian perspective” with a Cold War espionage vibe.
  • “Chernobyl really worked... and we want to continue that vibe.” (Chris, 10:25)
• Andy notes the bold creative choice to have a spinoff with a more muted, specific Cold War vision that’s not the original’s flagship.
  • “Telling any streamer we’re going to do a spinoff... less flashy is remarkable. So I respect that and I appreciate it.” (Andy, 11:30)

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2. Euphoria Season 3, Episode 3 Discussion (13:25–34:22)

Major Impressions & Reactions

• Chris and Andy unpack the episode’s wedding centerpiece, acknowledging stylistic shifts and the show's blend of emotional and visual highs and lows.
  • “I thought that this was yet another shift. Stylistically, subtly. A lot of the Nate and Cassie stuff bordered on Ari Aster to me in a very cool way.” (Chris, 14:04)
  • “I did not like this episode. I found it unpleasant to sit through.” (Andy, 14:34)

Key Conversations & Scenes

• Discussing narrative disconnects: Rue (Zendaya) barely interacts with major characters.
• Cal and Jules’ bar scene highlighted for its depth:
  • “[It] carried a sense of history and gravity... I enjoyed the scene... which is the hallmark of continuing television dramatic series.” (Andy, 15:19)
• The wedding as a set-piece:
  • “The wedding felt like a set piece in search of a reason to exist.” (Andy, 18:06)
  • Chris notes the visual intensity keeps the show compelling: “I am never bored for one second while watching this. Maybe it’s just like the visual panache... every scene I find an image or a moment.” (Chris, 19:49)

Standout Moments & Quotes

• Saran Wrap/mummification scene:
  • “It is just such a stunning image. Yeah, I suppose it’s problematic... but I don’t know. You just like, when do you see something like that?” (Chris, 22:54)
  • “Same screen I watched Daniel Tiger on with my kids, and now look at us. You’ve dirtied it now.” (Andy, 23:22)
• The show’s disconnect:
  • “Sex work, guns, and drugs... disconnected from humanity or human beings... it just feels like what the priority is maybe differing.” (Andy, 24:39)
  • “Does that make you feel any better about things?” (Chris, 26:31)

Thematic Takeaways

• Euphoria’s unique place in TV due to its extreme stylistic choices and delays caused by celebrity schedules and production issues.
  • “We may never get something like this again with this level of celebrity engaged in something that, you know, that they were contractually obligated to be a part of years ago.” (Andy, 29:44)

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3. ‘Beef’ Season 2: Interview with Lee Sung Jin (Sonny Lee) (36:35–end)

Origins and Genre

• Lee describes Beef as a fusion of “Sopranos/early PTA comedy,” “Netflix Bingeability/White Lotus moments,” and “Humanistic Koreeda/Bergman pathos.”
  • “I came up with a formula—35% Sopranos/early PTA + 35% Netflix + 30% Koreeda/Bergman.” (Sonny, 37:17)
• Having to “explain the why” and even using a TED Talk on art theory for Netflix execs to understand ambiguity in the show.
  • “I sent them a TED Talk on ‘the beholder share’—by the end of it, they’re like, okay, we get it now.” (Sonny, 38:40)

Second Season Evolution

• Season 2 avoids repeating S1’s structure, aiming for a “slower burn” and shifting the conflict from individuals to groups/theme of class.
  • “When it was more overt, the story math started to become really similar to season one... I don’t like repeating myself.” (Sonny, 42:20)
• Writers’ room discussion focused on “what started to energetically feel refreshing.”

Casting & Character Development

• Attaches actors early; characters built to their strengths and idiosyncrasies.
  • “I can’t write to people in a vacuum. Charles [Melton] was the first piece because the half-Korean arc was important... I was watching May December.” (Sonny, 53:49)
  • “Charles loves to put handles on his lines—so I was jotting down all these Charles-isms to make Austin bespoke to him.” (Sonny, 55:13)
• Carrie Mulligan and Oscar Isaac’s casting:
  • Their “shared history” essential to the authenticity of the older couple.
  • “They’re in two of the greatest movies of this century... [Oscar] lit up at Carrie’s name. They’ve pitched each other for every project.” (Sonny, 57:06)
• For Korean characters, brought in Youn Yuh-jung and Song Kang-ho; the latter needed persuasion and comic golf subplot was invented due to real-life misunderstandings (73:53).

Writing Method & Visual Style

• Sonny uses elaborate PowerPoints when pitching—“PowerPoint is actually my true medium.”
• Specificity and modernity are vital:
  • “We spent hours trying to find the right font... so that it feels like how it feels for us when we use our phones.” (Sonny, 65:26)

Themes & Interpretation

• Is ‘Beef’ cynical about love and marriage? Open to interpretation, uses Buddhism (Samsara) as a metaphor, evoking “the acceptance of the cycle, not its futility.”
  • “Where I’m currently at, I actually see it as acceptance...the path to enlightenment is the acceptance of Samsara.” (Sonny, 75:49)

Beef’s Future and Lee’s Next Projects

• No immediate plans for a third season; puts everything into current work.
  • “If this is the last season, I would be perfectly happy. I feel I’ve said everything I needed to say through the show.” (Sonny, 77:54)

On Marvel’s X-Men

• Sonny is part of the writing team for the new X-Men film, bringing a character-first approach, inspired by the comics and animated series.
  • “Jake [Schreier] wants to really lean into that inner character dynamics and relationships and play around with the soapy stuff that was baked into the comics.” (Sonny, 81:16)
  • “We can really do anything—we’re not beholden to anything from the past.” (Sonny, 82:08)
  • “When I told [my dad] I got this, he was just like, ‘that’s the good one.’” (Sonny, 85:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Act like you’ve been here before.” (Andy, 07:27) – on HBO’s approach to Game of Thrones spinoffs.
• “That's her sister!” (Chris, 21:10) – emphasizing the intense family drama at the Euphoria wedding.
• “If you are to engage with this show...these series of images are not boring...but...it just feels like the priority is maybe differing.” (Andy, 24:39) – how Euphoria’s style can overpower substance.
• “35% Sopranos/early PTA comedy...plus 35% Netflix...plus 30% Hirokazu Koreeda/Ingmar Bergman.” (Sonny, 37:17) – on Beef’s tonal formula.
• “We have to write a golf scene first!” (Sonny, 73:53) – on adjusting the script for Song Kang-ho.

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Relevant Timestamps

• 02:49 – White Lotus casting discussion
• 05:04 – House of the Dragon S3 teaser dissection
• 08:21 – For All Mankind spinoff ‘Star City’
• 13:25 – Euphoria S3E3 discussion starts
• 36:35 – Beef S2 interview with Sonny Lee begins
• 37:17 – The tonal formula for Beef explained
• 53:49 – Writing for specific actors
• 57:06 – Charles and Carrie’s chemistry and casting details
• 65:26 – Attention to modern phone use and app-switching
• 73:53 – Song Kang-ho’s involvement and the golf scene
• 75:49 – Samsara and Beef’s “acceptance” theme
• 77:54 – Beef's possible ending and exhaustion
• 80:07 – On joining X-Men and Lee’s Marvel fandom

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Summary Tone

The episode is irreverent, in-depth, and conversational—balancing pop-culture savvy with critical analysis, and blending humorous banter with thoughtful insight, especially in both the Euphoria critique and the process-focused conversation with Sonny Lee. The interview is especially candid, demystifying the mechanics of pitching, writing, and casting ambitious, genre-bending TV.

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This summary captures the full scope and highlights of the episode, serving both as an informative recap and a guide to the best moments and insights.

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a 2 percenter. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward/active cash terms apply. I need support staff to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor theringer.com and joining me in the studio, a man who funnily enough moonlights as a Little John impersonator who does James Brown songs.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's really true at weddings.

[Chris Ryan]

Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, you got quiet.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, that was a mouthful, Andy.

[Andy Greenwald]

You handled it well. I thought you were gonna do a little Jon Voitz.

[Chris Ryan]

It's great to see you, man. We're talking about Euphoria episode three today. We're also talking about Beef season two again because we have Sonny Lee coming in to talk to us about the show that he created and the second season and a little bit about X Men, which he's also.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought that was exciting co writing

[Chris Ryan]

and we're very excited to hear about that. First, let me just say thewatchpotify.com, feel free to continue to send us, ask us anything, emails or emails that are more pertinent to this podcast. This podcast, the Watchpod_ Instagram. You can watch us on Ringer TV on YouTube and you can watch us on Spotify, where you can also listen to us as well as many Other platforms that carry this podcast hbc. Helena Baum Carter leaves the White Lotus disappointing by mutual consent. Mutual consent, Mutual decision.

[Andy Greenwald]

It sounds like it wasn't working, which has happened before on the show, I believe, and that Mike White has an exacting vision for how he wants these parts to be played and how he wants these parts to be, and that she was no longer the right fit. So we don't know if it was a performance thing or if it was a reconsideration of the whole character.

[Chris Ryan]

I doubt it was like, oh, it turns out Helena Bonham Carter can't read. You know what I mean? I'm sure she's like, an accomplished actress for. For three, four decades at this point.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think I like the way you said, I'm sure she's an accomplished actress. You're like, I don't know. I never saw Room of the View.

[Chris Ryan]

The only thing I was going to say is this is the downside to the. The fantasy casting league that is that kind of operates around White Lotus, is there's so much attention paid to it that I could imagine, like, pretty big shows getting away with. Like, we tried this. It didn't work out. Like, it's kind of swept under the

[Andy Greenwald]

rug constantly, and that's better for everyone.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but this was like, HBO released a statement, you know, And I think it's like, we've talked before about how sometimes it'll be like, so and so has joined the cast of this Justified spinoff. And I'm like, this has been shot.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's often the case.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but this is more like, you know, there's speculation, there's rumors, there's. Who would you like to see at the White Lotus next season? And live by the sword, Die by the sword, I guess.

[Andy Greenwald]

Eric Stoltz still answers questions about the two weeks he spent filming as Marty McFly.

[Chris Ryan]

That's just from you, though. You emailing him? Ask him anything? Questions.

[Andy Greenwald]

The restraining orders language was vague, so DMs are fine as far as I can tell.

[Chris Ryan]

More HBO news to hit, which is the hot D Season 3 teaser dropped. And as Kai rightly pointed out, we're losing touch with the old ways. A teaser should not be three minutes long.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. This is a trailer.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I believe it's called the teaser on YouTube, though, correct?

[Commercial Narrator]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but, like, what are they going to say in the trailer? That, like, some of these dragons, it's

[Chris Ryan]

supposed to be 57 seconds and it's supposed to be like, like rhythmic and just, like, pictures of the dragons and shit. It's not supposed to be like a big fight.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just picture you just kind of vibing out like Makad. The image of a dragon. An image of another dragon.

[Chris Ryan]

We should do it. We should do our own teaser. That's cut to McConaughey's, you know, beating the chest song.

[Andy Greenwald]

Don't threaten Kai with a good time. He's already googling it.

[Chris Ryan]

Want to go viral?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Follow me, brother. I am excited because I feel like they have no more room to delay and must get to the fighting on this show. And, you know, James Norton being added to the cast is exciting. I'm a big fan of his.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, you've been supporting him mafia for life.

[Chris Ryan]

What about you?

[Sonny Lee]

What?

[Chris Ryan]

You're feeling a little bit more upbeat about Houses?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I mean, I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, this looks cool and propulsive and like we're finally getting the action scenes that we were promised and the story is going to get on with it and really have some consequences and teeth. On the other hand, I kind of want to know what that wormwood tree is thinking. You know what I mean? Wormwood, Weirwood. What is it? I don't remember anymore. Yeah, it's like that tree spent a season having Matt Smith talk to it. And I kind of want to know what the tree's whole thing is. Like one episode, like bottle episode interiority.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think he's kind of the Dr. Melfi of house of the Dragon?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And then we get to see the tree go home and talk to another tree played by Peter Bogdanovich, but, like, you know, done tastefully with AI.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is why they can't handle me in that room. I was across the studio a lot from the show, and again, Eric Stoltz's lawyers arrived and we're like, you're also not allowed.

[Chris Ryan]

Were you outside of the House of the Dragon lot with the boombox?

[Andy Greenwald]

Justice for the tree.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I'm excited. I. This is, funnily enough, the show that I chose to spoil for myself. So I extensively read about this era in Targaryen history. Extensively read on. On Wikipedia. I didn't quite get. Because I knew that this one did not have that classic George Prose. You know, it was more of a just picture.

[Andy Greenwald]

It looks the way like my old New York therapist sat in an Eames chair, would have a thousand page book about the 97th Congress and be like, aha. Well, this is when lawmaking really changed. That's you with this.

[Chris Ryan]

With this. But I am excited to see how they Execute it, you know. And I don't think that they're advocating for canon.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's exciting.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm curious to see whether or not there is any relationship creatively. I doubt it because I think that these were being shot relatively parallel to one another between Seven Kingdoms. Lessons learned being like, oh, we can't, we can't have a little bit of a laugh here and there, I bet.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I bet a hard no. But the best case scenario for this, I think, is that they. We thought that coming out of the original Game of Thrones series that the, that the sort of slower pace and the more thoughtful approach that HBO was taking towards spinoffs was going to equate with entertainment that was like, just knew what it was doing. Act like you've been here before. And I think that the House of Dragon Genesis was a little bit bumpier and it wasn't a one to one translation. Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is so specific and came out of the gate pretty much perfect.

[Chris Ryan]

Fully formed.

[Andy Greenwald]

Fully formed. I think it took House of the Dragon time to get its bearings and then there were, you know, exterior circumstances that delayed it and Covid and all of that stuff and then the production delays, et cetera, et cetera. All this is to say the best case version of it is them saying, we have our cute, funny show, we have our hellfire war show, and we'll take it from there.

[Chris Ryan]

The only other thing, news wise, that I wanted to mention was a trailer that dropped today, I believe, for the for all mankind spinoff show Star City.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to preface this by saying I spoiled this one in that I have very, I've read very deeply on alternate histories of the space program in which Russia won.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that if you had asked me 48 hours ago what my interest level in another take, but also an alternative read on history would be from the for all mankind world, I would be like, I'm good. I watched two seasons, maybe two, and change for all mankind. I think if I had like to summarize like my, my exit strategy from that show, it was just. I just felt like it became very literal for me. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't. I wasn't being really like energized by either the writing or the direction. And so it's almost a show that I feel like if you. I wouldn't go so far as to say you could just read the recaps and get it. But I, I would say just like the experiment kind of wore off for me. I am so excited for this after watching this trailer. And that has not happened in a long time with a trailer for a television show where they essentially were like, you know, what's good? Chernobyl.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, the television show.

[Chris Ryan]

The television show.

[Andy Greenwald]

We are at the 40th anniversary of the event.

[Chris Ryan]

This is starting in 1969. The space race. But this alternative space race of the for all mankind timeline told from the Russian, the Soviet perspective in the style of Chernobyl, which means all the Russians are English people or you know, the greater English area.

[Andy Greenwald]

Speaking English or fluent Russian.

[Chris Ryan]

No, speaking English. And it's a refi. Fans. Recifens plays seemingly the main scientist and it very, very, very much feels like it is a show that was like Chernobyl really worked again, the show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And we want to.

[Andy Greenwald]

In retrospect, you're right.

[Chris Ryan]

And we want to continue that vibe a little bit Now. I'm sure there are other influences because like it also feels a little Thomas Alfredson's adaptation of Tinker Taylor and has some kind of tactile espionage to it. I'm very, very, very excited for this.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean the affection for Chernobyl extended to them saying, that guy who plays the firefighter, Adam Nogaitis, let's get him in as a cosmonaut. So it's visually, I mean, you're recognizing people from Chernobyl when you watch this. I was also very struck by the complete aesthetic commitment to the bit by the trailer. It is right up our alley. If it is Cold War espionage and then maybe also space, that's pretty cool. I was impressed by the specificity of vision because telling any streamer that we're going to do a spin off of your not flagship show and not even like attention grabbing number one hit show, but a respected performer for you. But this spinoff is going to be by definition and by aesthetic.

[Chris Ryan]

Guys were on the wrong side and

[Andy Greenwald]

less flashy is remarkable. So I respect that and I appreciate it. I will check it out.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm a big Anna Maxwell Martin fan. She was In Line of Duty and the Sharon Horgan show Motherland. She's fantastic in Motherland. So she plays sort of like the head of security at this Star City base. So I'm looking forward to that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would say the thing with For All Mankind. I'm trying to think if there's something I would put in its place, but I don't think I would. That's probably the number one show for me that I wish I could have found my way into because I think the creativity behind it and the way that it develops season to season from like one sliding doors moment of history and then just playing out. That history is so imaginative and cool sounding. And I think I finished the first season and made it a little bit into the second and the execution of it and maybe it's changed or, you know, as it's continued to grow. I found it a hard show to watch. The episodes were 59, 61 minutes, 63 minutes. And maybe that's what you were talking about with the literalism. Like it just.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I think that's basically

[Andy Greenwald]

felt like a slog, honestly, especially knowing that I was so behind. And this is before, you know, the Euphoria rule went into effect where we actually don't have to watch all the shows.

[Chris Ryan]

We could jump right into the last few episodes. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime. Same day delivery. As you're back getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com/prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. Let's talk about Euphoria.

[Andy Greenwald]

All right.

[Chris Ryan]

Because we have a. A lovely chat with Sonny coming up. Obviously spoilers for last night's episode of Euphoria. I didn't think that we were going to get the wedding so soon. I thought that we would maybe get more intercast interactions. So.

[Andy Greenwald]

Huh.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't believe we actually got Rue Zendaya Sydney Sweeney 2 shot ever with

[Andy Greenwald]

with Jules and Maddie, who she. Whom she was sitting with. But she attended the wedding of Nate and Cassie and did not share the screen with either of them.

[Chris Ryan]

Didn't seem like it. And I thought that this one was yet another shift. Stylistically, subtly. A lot of the Nate and Cassie stuff bordered on Ari Aster to me in a very cool way. But a little birdie on my shoulder tells me that maybe the joke's not so funny.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is the birdie still on your shoulder or you should check.

[Chris Ryan]

Go ahead and sing.

[Andy Greenwald]

You want me to sing? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Cause I like the episode. But I have a feeling maybe perhaps did not.

[Andy Greenwald]

I did not like this episode. I found it unpleasant to sit through. And I wonder, in the spirit of generosity and in the spirit of celebrating a beautiful union between deserving, loving souls, I should probably ask you Some questions and seed the floor to a degree.

[Chris Ryan]

And also maybe because this is where, like, my locked. My lockbox of euphoria memories may be a little out of reach for me because there's some characters and the interactions between them where I was like, I feel like I remember this, but go ahead.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also think at some point we should bring in Kaya just because it's been a long time since I've planned a wedding. And I wonder if there were any, like, you know, tips. Tips and tricks that you picked up while watching this. I. Okay, I thought, like, to my mind, the most successful scene of the episode was the scene between Eric Dayne's Cal character and Jules at the bar at the wedding. My enjoyment of that scene was foreshortened by the fact that I know nothing of their shared history.

[Chris Ryan]

Very bad things to Jules.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was clear. I enjoyed the scene because it carried a sense of history and gravity between characters that is the hallmark of continuing television dramatic series. And I thought, again, we talked about this last week, that Eric Dane's performance, most likely his final performance, I thought they treated it all with a great deal of respect by making him just be drunk and not addressing the fact that his voice was affected by als, et cetera, et cetera. So I thought that was a strong and interesting scene. So I'm bringing that up first because my engagement with that scene was severely limited by not knowing anything about the history. And I wonder how much of that you could just extrapolate to the episode as a whole. Because so much of the wedding, to my mind, either it stands on its own, which I don't think that it did. Then does it stand on its own as a culmination of two plus years of these characters interacting? And I don't know if it did, primarily because the main character of the show didn't even talk to the people whose wedding she was attending.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it was a weird one. So I could go through the various. Like, when the woman, Bebe shows up, she was, you know, earlier iteration of the show. You know, obviously Maddie used to date Nate. Cassie essentially steals Nate from her.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

There's a whole thing over the first two seasons of these videos of Jules and Cal together that Cal had taken for obviously, his own pleasure, but for, like, become like an element of blackmail out there. And Nate's involvement with that whole scenario is. I don't know if it's. If it's ambiguous, but it is. Like, that scene between Nate and Jules and between Elordi and Hunter Shaff, I thought was Quite good. I don't even know entirely what Nate was trying to communicate there. Where it was like, you love who you love kind of thing and what his feelings really are for Jules at the end of the day, regardless of that, I. It seemed like if. If you were doing the parasocial, like, I'm speculating about, like, who was on set for what days kind of thing. This is the kind of thing that, like, me, is why I can't watch the morning show anymore sometimes because it's like I can't watch people do one like. Like, clearly not be in the same room together when they're shooting a scene or filmmaking that is chosen to create that illusion for whatever reason. So, yeah, it did really feel like Zendaya did a day of shooting there, but then like, they were like, now let's put her back in the Alamo

[Andy Greenwald]

Lorry, which remains crime side. The much more compelling, much more electric storyline of the show. I think that the argument the show has been making for style over substance, which, again, that's how I'm choosing to engage with it. There may be more substance awaiting me if I had watched the previous season, which I did not. So I think that that gambit works more successfully when the characters had been siloed into their particular aesthetic and genre pieces. So Cassie and Nate making each other crazy inside of this Scarface yellow suburban nightmare world. That kind of worked for me. The wedding felt like a set piece in search of a reason to exist. All of the. And maybe so, again, maybe aesthetically, this is. You tell me, is this what euphoria has always been? Because it seemed like a chance for all of the cast members to dress in wild ways that maybe communicated some interior. Interiority through their clothing and how they chose to approach things. So I picked up on the Maddie relationship with Nate because of the way it kept cutting to her eyes as this was going on. But I did not, in the course of the celebration, feel much any. Feel really any kind of character grounding to have empathy for them while it was taking place. It was like, here's an opportunity to maybe let Cassie experience a swing of emotions or to. I think the negative vision of it is just sort of punish the actor more. Because I don't really see what. I didn't really see how the character was being served or the actor was being served with what she had to do during those wedding set pieces while everyone around her is threatening or yelling about.

[Chris Ryan]

It's interesting because we were talking last week, I think, a little bit about how the Cassie And Nate thing seems to be happening on a different television show. And then when you make that the sort of main arena, it almost muted what the Alexis Demi character and what the Zendaya character and what the Hunter Schaefer characters were even doing. You know, and I'll say this. I've said this, I think, a couple of times over the course of this season. I am never bored for one second while watching this. Like, maybe it's just like the visual panache. Maybe it's the cutting. Maybe it is the. The wild swings between genre that happen from scene to scene so that you're like, well, like, we're back in a Western gangster Tarantino show. Or I'm. Now I'm in the. The most harrowing parts of Midsommar. You know, like, you swing back and forth, and in every scene I find an image or a moment like Sydney Sweeney's bloodshot eyes as Maude Apatow is like. Is her sister. Lexi is like, that's her sister. That's her sister. Yeah. And her sister is like, steph's gonna

[Andy Greenwald]

need a. I just need a second. It's almost like we have to step down for a minute. I gotta go for a walk and I gotta get out some stuff that I don't think we should put onto the Internet. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

That's her sister.

[Commercial Narrator]

And the.

[Chris Ryan]

The conversation where she's just like, are you okay? And she's like, why are you asking me? That is the best day of my life. It's fucking good stuff, man. But I was thinking about this because, like, I'll just. I'll just. I'll just keep going with this. Yeah, I was thinking about this with the Saran Wrap scene. So Jules is becoming a sugar.

[Andy Greenwald]

What's the baby.

[Chris Ryan]

Sugar baby. And is dating guys with the understanding that they're like. She'll provide a certain experience for them and that they're gonna pay her for that. But there's different. Like, there's variants. Like each guy wants a different thing. And she happens upon a plastic surgeon named Ellis who becomes her. Her main.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is Sam Trammell, who is on True Blood.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it Trammel or Trammell?

[Andy Greenwald]

I was going to. You know what I decided to do in that moment? Let's talk.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, I think of Alan Trammell, the Tigers.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Tigers shortstop with Lou Whitaker and Trammel Tillman from Severance.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. So whatever his. However he chooses to pronounce it, I'm with him. But that is that scene. Like, this sort of sequence culminates with Jules going to his apartment and this incredible piece of Hans Zimmer and the Zimmetz music playing. And I truly do want to know if Hans Zimmer was like, so describe what I'm making music for on Zimmer.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just Googling mummification fetish.

[Chris Ryan]

And the Ellis character wraps jewels in Saran wrap around her entire body except for her mouth and nose so she can breathe. And then starts making out with her and is like, I'm gonna keep, I, I just might keep you forever.

[Sonny Lee]

Mm.

[Chris Ryan]

It is just such a stunning image. Yeah, I suppose it's problematic. I, I, I've not yet started to unpack how it's mummifying her seems, you know, laden with meaning. But I don't know. You just like, when do you see something like that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, look, I mean, I, I'm with you.

[Chris Ryan]

Imagine I said, that's the kind of thing where it's like, as an image. I don't even know what it's supposed to mean in relationship to the rest of Euphoria.

[Andy Greenwald]

Same screen I watched Daniel Tiger on with my kids and now look at us.

[Chris Ryan]

You've dirtied it now.

[Andy Greenwald]

I had to get a new tv, just threw it straight in the garbage. Thanks, Sam Levinson.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

If you are to engage with this show, and I've tried to, and maybe, look, maybe this is just the problem that was always waiting for me with my watching of Euphoria, which is now it's becoming a ongoing television show for me, not just a series of striking directorial images. And the problems are starting with my reaction to it. These series of images that we're seeing on the screen are not boring and they are striking and there's a lot of thought given into each one and the composition of them. And I continue to just be blown away by the color story of the show and how much work went into, not just on the day by the cinematographers and the camera teams, but, like later in color correction. That's what it has to look like.

[Chris Ryan]

What that's filming is like. The rue selling guns sequence is like, this is awesome stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

That said, and maybe this is where we differ and this is a healthy source of debate, I fundamentally don't find sex work, guns and drugs interesting in a vacuum or in a photograph. I want I know this is our last episode. Go take it up with your sister, Maud Apatow.

[Chris Ryan]

You don't find sex, work, guns and

[Andy Greenwald]

drugs just on their own, disconnected from humanity or human beings.

[Chris Ryan]

Why did you shoot them in VistaVision, though?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, okay, say more. That like Zendaya Playing with an AR15 is a hell of an image. It's also ultimately, to me, kind of impotent and lame because it's just Zendaya with guns. It's not about anything. It's about performing, it's about play acting. And I felt the same way about the gangster eating pieces while his associate beats the shit out of Elordi and cuts.

[Chris Ryan]

His associate.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, what do you think the relationship is? Do you think he gets healthcare?

[Chris Ryan]

That's what I was, like, thinking. You think he's an EVP in that,

[Andy Greenwald]

you know, he might be a task rabbit. Like, we're all Uber drivers to a degree now, you know, so, like, as a series of images, it is well constructed, but what does it signify? Like, I just found it to be. What's the word I'm looking for when I talk about the show? Morally bankrupt, I don't think. Let's throw that out there. No, that image, though, I'm not going on that high horse. I can't get there anymore with my knees. But I'm just saying the sequence of pictures are starting to dissociate from any kind of engagement that I potentially would have had with the people who are in the pictures. And it just feels like what the priority is maybe differing. Now, when we go back to the Rue Alamo Laurie stuff, I think it's at its best. It's slightly above Tarantino light thus far, but it's engaging and it's well shot. And its central figure is one of the great actors we have at the moment doing something unique that she's clearly interested in exploring. And so I'm in. I am into that show. And so maybe you could. We can write. Maybe we could describe it, move on to next week under the idea that, well, this episode was about other things, that I'm less interested.

[Chris Ryan]

Possibly my two rejoinders to that would be one. And your mileage may vary on the social commentary being offered by euphoria, but there is that very, like, sort of darkly comic line that. That. That ruse says where she's like. You may be, you know, thinking to yourself, like. Like, she's selling guns. Yeah, but I assure you they were all going to Mexico. You know, like that. That kind of like. Does that make you feel any better about things that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the. No, I think the Roo voice. And again, I'm not assuming intent here, but I think that the Ru. The Rye Ru voice, which is undercutting, which is pointing out some of the, you know, hanging a lantern on it as we may say in the TV industry about like, how ludicrous or hyped up some of it may be helps. And I think on a very basic level, like, it just strikes me as someone who is making a new season of something that has to connect dots and advanced story in areas that he and the people involved may be less interested in. I also wonder, that story has the juice.

[Chris Ryan]

It does have the juice and it is a good story so far. And this woman's sort of quest for even, like, she says things like, I want to go legit. And it's like, like, does she have any interest in going legit? Does she even care? In that Alamo interrogation of the idea, while very Tarantino. And it's like, let's do a history lesson. You know, might be a little rote for people. But like, yes, if it was just the Rue story, that would be one thing. The switching between these couple of other storylines and the way in which it happens kind of makes me wonder whether this is the most expensive and beautiful experience of swiping through reels that I've ever seen. Because my brain actually does respond to. And now something else. A home run, a cat. You know, like an instruction on how to putt. Like. Like that's how we're getting some insight into what that's like a woman wrapped in Saran Wrap. Like a gun sale. Like a wedding. It's like these, these things don't sit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Creamy pint of Guinness. Plate of pasta, steamed white fish. Creamy pint of Guinness. We can all play this game.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but that is kind of how euphoria feels. It feels like short form video made with tons of money on a wide screen.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I think that whenever, historically, when I have played the amoral card, it is a conversation ender. I'm not trying to walk away from this project because I think that what, first of all, the headline remains what you've said each week. It's not boring. I did find some of the connective story tissue of this episode boring, but that's on me. I didn't watch the show. I think that there is something to be said about something that is so extreme in its stylistic choices and in its points of view and what interests it collectively. Although when we say that, we pretty much mean Sam Levinson, that it is not like other things on tv. We may never get something like this again with this level of celebrity engaged in something that, you know, that they were contractually obligated to be a part of years ago.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm still on, like, I Don't think people did this against their will.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no, no. I don't mean to say that, but I. But you don't get. We've never had anything like this before.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it is a fascinating. If nothing else, and I think it is more than this. It will be a fascinating artifact of this era in which TV takes so long to make and the logistics are so challenging that you end up with a third season that is essentially both a new first season and also just a very bizarre sliding doors digression season based on what people are passionate about at the time. They finally got the schedules aligned and the budget locked.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I'll just. I mean, like, even on an episode like this where it didn't quite hang together as much for me, or maybe it was like a little bit of a letdown because I wanted more fireworks between the main cast in one place. Maddie walking back to her sad apartment after a day in, like, the opulent Calabasas dream world. For. For better or for worse, the Saran Wrap scene, Rue selling guns, and the whole Laurie, like, Paladin situation at the end was just like, those are like four standout moments that, honestly, like, on a bad episode, euphoria for me still has, like, a couple of moments that are better than anything else I'm watching. So I give it a lot of leeway. Do you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you have a particular reaction to now? I'm just trying to do the. I'm trying to do the work of someone who had watched the show, but there was a scene when Rue's driving when she's on the phone with the character whose actor passed away, Right? That's correct.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm curious to see how much. I know that honoring Angus's memory was a very significant motivational thing for Sam Levinson in making this season entirely, at least in the interviews I've read with him. And I am curious to see how much he makes Fez a character. Not that I think he's gonna show up in any kind of way, but the idea that he is going to try and escape prison now is much different than, oh, we just hear about him in the background a bit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, also, the genesis of the show. Right. Is both in terms of the background of what attracted Sam to the storyline and then also the storyline that's the. Like, the beating heart of the first two seasons is an addiction story.

[Sonny Lee]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

And a cast member passed away from an accidental drug overdose. So you wonder if that if there's a. If it's inspired, if they were motivated to make it in his honor. I wonder what the thematic on screen response to that event might be.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think if, if as seen in the, in the trailers, if Colman Domingo's character comes back into the fold, I'm sure that will be a factor. We should wrap up euphoria there. I look forward to talking about it with you next week.

[Andy Greenwald]

Kai, what's your flyer? What's your flower budget?

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Has it fluctuated all in the last few weeks?

[Sonny Lee]

I.

[Andy Greenwald]

I will say that I know

[Sonny Lee]

I'm like, pretty badly wedding pilled at

[Chris Ryan]

this point because I saw all those

[Sonny Lee]

flowers and I was like, I think

[Andy Greenwald]

that makes sense for 50k. I mean, it was very lovely.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think you'll get that kind of pep talk on your walk down the aisle like Cassie got.

[Sonny Lee]

I can only hope.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I, I have to say that this is a sidebar that I did want to bring up on this show one way or another, that I, I think it's incredible that it took the release of the Michael Jackson biopic for one of the most brilliant pieces of comedy of the last few years to finally be discovered by the mainstream, which is the Bubbles thing, which is John Mulaney interviewing Langston Kerman as Bubbles from last year's Everybody's Live with John Mulaney.

[Chris Ryan]

Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Those of us who were, we were, we were with Bubbles shooting in the gym. First of all, we've known how funny that is. But I only want to bring it up because it's a masterpiece. And the first shot of the ice sculpture I did think was Michael and Bubbles, right? Which I think was intentional. But I, I did think that it was John Landis also was drinking the toilet water.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, Sydney, sweetie, being like, I, I look fat in this ice sculpture. And him being like, it'll. You'll look better as it melts. And she's like, but I don't want my boobs to melt. It's like, we also gonna get that, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it's. It's. It's like the.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like the old for all mankind, like, show me the way.

[Andy Greenwald]

It just, it's from Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks to that. You know what I mean? It's just the way forward.

[Chris Ryan]

I did think for a second, by the way, just in terms of canon, that there was a moment when Sydney Sweeney, when Cassie's yelling at Nate and pops him in the eye with the champagne bottle, that Nate Jacobs was gonna be like, lord, forgive me, it's time to go back to the old me.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought that too, because you planted that seed.

[Chris Ryan]

Then he was just a really good, really sweet to her and then he got his toe cut off.

[Andy Greenwald]

When we talk about it next week, we should probably, I assume there'll be more about them in their happily married life that began.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe I'll do a lore download for you next week. I just, that might be my, my, my job for next week because I

[Andy Greenwald]

don't want to do another week going on. Yeah, well, the draft's over. My schedule's clear. I don't get those characters. I don't understand and I don't understand the dynamic. So maybe, maybe, maybe now that he has to get Nas money, it'll, you

[Chris Ryan]

know, you get the characters on Beef though. Beef Season two, which is a show. Is this your segue we loved. Yes. And I don't want to belabor it. We can maybe touch. If we want to talk a little bit more broadly about the season, we can hit it on Thursday. So we want to get into our interview with Sunny Lee, which went on for about 45, 50 minutes and was wonderful. He talked a little bit about his writing process, his pitching process, which I thought was very interesting, and everything about casting Beef Season two with Cailee Spaeny and Charles Melton and Oscar Isaac and Carey Mulligan. The themes he was looking to discover some stories from set. Really, really exciting to talk to him. He's an awesome interview subject.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then some X Men.

[Chris Ryan]

And some X Men. So let's get into our interview with Sonny and we will be back on Thursday for, I would imagine, Top Chef Restaurant Wars. Yeah, we hear you, everybody. Asking us to watch America's Culinary cup perhaps one day. But I've only so much time in the day for cooking shows, frankly. What about you?

[Andy Greenwald]

I too, only have so much time in the day for cooking shows. I'm with you, but I have not

[Chris Ryan]

watched it yet and I'm sure there's some other stuff I'm just forgetting right now. So that's a hell of a tease. Thank you to Kai, Kaya and Sarah for shooting with us today and we'll be back on Thursday.

[Andy Greenwald]

Enjoy this interview.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2 percenter. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply.

[Andy Greenwald]

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[Chris Ryan]

You choose a playlist that fits your

[Andy Greenwald]

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[Sonny Lee]

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[Andy Greenwald]

Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings.

[Sonny Lee]

Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer.

[Chris Ryan]

Sunny, thank you so much for joining the Watch again, man. It's great to see you and congratulations on a fantastic Season of Beef.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is the fastest ever turnaround from loving a show to having the creator, so thank you for that.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, no, I was waiting right outside. I was like, they like it.

[Chris Ryan]

I wanted to ask you a little bit. I don't know if you think about things in these terms, but I was trying to, you know, articulate a bunch of my feelings about the show. And one of the ways I usually do that is try to describe genre. And I came up with Dark Screwball for the Season of Beef, and I was curious if you had ever identified a genre or a micro genre for the season for yourself that maybe helped you find the tone.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, the tone's hard on this one. It's like, I came up with a formula season one that I just kind of did as a joke, but it's weirdly stuck for everybody where I call it, like, 35% Soprano slash early PTA comedy where you're laughing at the broken psychology of people. Plus 35% Netflix. Binge ability slash White Lotus. Water cooler moments. Plus 30% Hirokaza Koreida, Ingmar Bergman. Warm melancholic pathos.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which percentage of those percentages do you share with Netflix? Because I felt them lean in. In the middle.

[Sonny Lee]

I felt them lean in. Did you say Bingeability? They. They weirdly, like, I think. I think part of the reason I came up with the formula is to help them, like, understand the show. Because it's, like, so hard, Season one, especially, to take what's in here and, like, get people to get on board. And oddly, that formula, like, worked for them. They were like, okay, like, as long as it's, like, balanced like that.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Bella's like, more Coriada.

[Sonny Lee]

I'm like, that's.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm so sorry. I don't see it.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like if there was a Norwegian filmmaker named Bingeability Reference, you know, it's just like, oh, of course you know, it'll be very Bingability. And it's like, yeah, okay, well, blank check.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, weirdly, they, they have been. I think it's like I try to treat the conversation with networks like just always explaining the why, you know, instead of like digging my heels or anything. Like, I remember one time and I hope it's okay that I share this. And if not, I'm sorry, Netflix. But they, I think it was season one, like episode three. We were at an impasse. Like, they just were like, not like wanting to do the show anymore. And I sent them a. I think it was like a TED Talk on this concept called the beholder share. It's like an art history term about like, why paintings, like great paintings offer a lot of share to the eye of the beholder. And I like explained to them, like, if a Bed Bath and beyond painting, like, people don't like. Cause it's like this is a beach and there's no participation from the audience. And whereas Mona Lisa, like, you have to interpret it and wonder why she's smiling. Is she smiling even? And like we had the whole like 1 hour zoom talking about this concept and by the end of it they're like, okay, no, like we get it now. And so they're like, yeah, we see what you're trying to do in episode three, like in terms of like the beholder share thing, maybe like, here's a little bit too confusing for us. But if you're saying that the audience wants to participate, great. So like, I find that like talking, like overly talking through everything gets me through some of these.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're my hero. That's incredible. Now genuinely, do you think, like, what percentage? Because you're good at fractions. Do you think they were like, this really moved me and changed my perspective about television versus he sent me a 55 minute video to watch. I'm just gonna let him make the show. We don't have to name names, but I'm just wondering if it's.

[Sonny Lee]

I think it's probably both. It's like a combination of all the things. I mean, that's why like my pitches to are so involved with. You know, I went to UPenn and I was supposed to be an investment banker. So PowerPoint is like actually like my true medium. You know, I say even more than television. And like I have these very involved, like 50 minute pitches where I'm like photoshopping like the actors into existing frames from other movies. And some of it almost is animated and there's like music and. And I like Literally go through the beats of the pilot with score. And then I even, like, have title cards in PowerPoint that, like, I cut to as like to punctuate a pitch. And I do all that to just not leave anything to anyone's imagination.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you feel like that is actually a creative act for you? Like, do you feel like that's where the sort of creative ball starts rolling downhill?

[Sonny Lee]

Totally, yeah. And like, weirdly, I, like, thrive in that PowerPoint meeting.

[Chris Ryan]

It's downhill from there.

[Sonny Lee]

It's all downhill from there. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So season two, which, again, I just think is really, really amazing, I loved watching it. And I especially loved the way you built on what was season one and changed some things, slowed some things down, worked the dials a little bit to communicate, I think, better what the series of beef, now that it's potentially ongoing, is to you.

[Sonny Lee]

Thank you.

[Andy Greenwald]

One of the biggest things was clearly that season one is, you know, incredibly escalating conflict between the two leads. And everything spins from that. This season not only has two couples, but I thought very brilliantly made plain over time that it's not just about a beef or a conflict between two people, but about groups of people and ultimately about people and class and like a larger system.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

How many different versions of a story did you have to run through to figure out the best canvas for that idea?

[Sonny Lee]

Oh, a lot. I think episode one had 16 drafts, 16 network drafts. And so that's not even, like, conclusive your stuff. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, it was just finding the right shape is so hard. You know, I think what I was running up against to up against was just. I kept feeling like, because there are versions of the show where the beef started more overtly, like, got to probably the blackmail way sooner. And I just found that when it was more overt, that the story math after that started to become really similar to season one. Right. And there's ways to, like, offset it once you get deeper in. But, like, just that initial domino, I was like, oh, I just energetically have done this and, you know, I just wanted. I don't like repeating myself. And I just think about my favorite musicians and bands and you think about sophomore album compared to debut album. And when they're like, too similar, you just start to, like, lose interest a little bit, you know, Like, I mean, I love Kings of Leon, but, you know, that's kind of why I, like, fell off a little bit.

[Andy Greenwald]

We have a long term beef with them on this part. That's fine. This is the inciting incident for our season.

[Sonny Lee]

Great. Let's get after it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's do it.

[Sonny Lee]

Oh, King Liam, what's going on? No, but, like, you look at a band like Radiohead, that's the holy grail.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sonny Lee]

To go from Pavlohoney Ben's okay computer to Kid A, it's like, insane.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sonny Lee]

And so we. We kept talking about, like, in prep and within the writers room, like, are we doing, like, do we want to go from, like, Benz to. To OK computer, or are we talking to OK Computer to Kid A? And so we're trying to, like, figure out the right level of swing that we want to take. And that's why we went through so many drafts. Is okay. What started to energetically feel refreshing to us, you know, so that it feels like we're on. We're doing new territory.

[Andy Greenwald]

What was the thing? If you can pinpoint one or two that felt exciting and fresh as a new starting point for the season, I

[Sonny Lee]

think it was sort of the slower burn felt really nice to me.

[Andy Greenwald]

And

[Sonny Lee]

I say something that really clicked in. In the edit was also the cold open. We had so many versions of how to start that first episode. One was starting completely in the older couple's perspective and staying with them for a longer time. There was one version where we did younger couples perspective so we just see the fight from their eyes.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh.

[Sonny Lee]

And then it wasn't until Josh was deleting security cam footage that we saw the fight through the older couple's eyes. And it was like this kind of like, surreal thing where he was looking through the footage and you saw the fight happening behind him. And that was cool from a filmmaking standpoint, Jake and I were getting excited about doing that, but then it just felt strange to keep these perspectives separate. What felt more propulsive was that inner cutting of here's this naive young couple. Here are them fighting. And it just felt these two trains that clearly were gonna collide. And I was like, oh, that's. The show is just constantly playing with how much these two couples are colliding or not colliding.

[Andy Greenwald]

That other version sounds a little moon shaped. It's like a little cerebral and chilly. Yes.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah. No, you're not there yet.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you feel like there was anything energizing or inspiring about changing the topography of California that you were covering? Because obviously it's more of a southern Californ. It's, you know, broadly a Southern California show. But you start pushing up the central Valley here and pushing up and like, you know, I just was in Ojai this weekend, and every time I'm Like, I could live here. I'm also, like, they talk a lot about spiritual cosmic vortexes here, you know, and there is an element of, like, you go there and you start to immediately think about, like, how to improve yourself all the time.

[Sonny Lee]

Totally.

[Chris Ryan]

And I was curious what attracted you to the. Both. The Monte Vista part, but also, like, that. That whole area.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah. I think, you know, for me, for whatever reason, I have a hard time just writing from nothing, you know, And I. I need life in the universe to show me things. And that's just what I was experiencing, you know, I just find so many of my millennial friends have either moved to Ojai or bought a place there or vacation there often. And there is this, especially for millennials, for some reason, this, like, idea that. That is this escape where, like, we can clean slate and everything's going to be okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

And.

[Sonny Lee]

And then Montecito, I. A good friend of mine, Chris, he. We, you know, we've been friends since our 20s. Like, temp together, like, been so poor in LA together. And then recently he came to. Into a lot of money. Like, he was number three at a company that sold to, I think, PayPal for like, $4 billion. And so he's a member at Montecito Club now. And I was house sitting for him, and he was like, oh, you can use my membership for a month. And I was like, how much do you pay? This is crazy. There's nothing in the world that would be worth this amount of money. And I used it for, like, three days. And I'm like, can I see that application, please?

[Andy Greenwald]

What was it that appealed to you? Because I think one of the other things that's so brilliant about the way you've crafted this season, every character is human, every character is fallible. And every character wants things even if they shouldn't want them. And I think that you don't shy away from that. So maybe that also came from experience.

[Sonny Lee]

Totally. I mean, we talked a lot in the writer's room about hedonic adaptation and just, like, how quickly we as humans, just. New stimulus, new environment, like, bam, we adapt. We're such adaptable creatures, and suddenly we forget we can't go backwards.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's Ashley. Once you fly in the front of the plane, you know what?

[Chris Ryan]

But that was actually what I was. Ashley is the most fascinating. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Like, Ashley's such fascinating character to me, because one of my questions was, do you think that even if Ashley and Austin had never come across Josh and Lindsay fighting, Ashley was Always going to find something that was like a lever to like, move her life along or was she. Was she ever going to be content just being like. I guess this is just what things are, you know, like.

[Sonny Lee]

I don't think so. Yeah, yeah. No, I think. I mean, that's what's fun about the way Kaylee played that character too. And we talked about it a lot with, with me and her and Jake of like, how much we want to start her innocent and that this is like a brand new, almost like disease that she inherits from everybody else or what's innately inside of her and where we landed. I'm so glad you asked. That is like, she plays it where, even when, even in the pilot, like, you feel a little bit like that that is in her. You know, there's this, like, slight, like, edge to it. And even, like, even in her, like, love for Austin, there's an anxiousness because she. You can just tell this is someone that, like, is seeking and, like, holding on or wanting more. And so I absolutely think even if they hadn't witnessed that, she would have found something else that she needed to hedonically adapt.

[Chris Ryan]

It's such a great portrait of, like, people in love at that age where you're like, this is so cool. Right? Like, we both work at record stores. Not that I'm speaking about.

[Andy Greenwald]

That came from a deep place.

[Chris Ryan]

One person wakes up and is like, so what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do with our lives? Like, this is fun, but, like, are you ever gonna wear a shirt with buttons?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, also, once they've seen, as they see in the beginning, once they see how Josh and Lindsay live when you go back to their home, we're seeing it the way they're seeing it. Yes, it's a perfectly fine apartment for 20 year olds. But then they've seen what maybe they feel they're supposed to have.

[Sonny Lee]

Exactly.

[Andy Greenwald]

And we're watching that as well.

[Sonny Lee]

Well, I mean, that was what was so fun about kind of writing these younger characters as a room. And we have, you know, younger writers in the room too. But just thinking about what we used to be like, and what's funny is, like, it feels not that long ago, but then also so long ago to think about, like, relationships from 20s. And then a funny thing that came up in the room is just this, like the question, what are you thinking? You know, like, you used to ask that, like, so in love, like, because you genuinely wanted to know what the other person was thinking. And now it's like, never said in Like a, like, it's like, okay, what are you thinking? Like, you know, and so like, so you're thinking now. Congratulations. Yeah, it's like the last thing you want to ask, you know, staying on

[Andy Greenwald]

the young couple for a minute because I thought Charles Melton is just like revelatory in this show. He's so good and he's so fun and it's such a rare thing to have someone who can be self aware and smart at being slightly dumb. I thought they were incredible. And particularly when you give him early on the line about actually this is all late stage capitalism's fault and you realize that he's read this on a Reddit board or something and you've captured this tone that is both giving us a roadmap for what the series is gonna be about. Because that is what they come up against and it does undo them all. But also he's a little bit clownish when he says it. It's convenient to blame.

[Sonny Lee]

Yes, exactly.

[Andy Greenwald]

That felt like a really important hinge point for the character and for the season.

[Sonny Lee]

So much of writing, Austin was looking at our own lives. And I feel like we all do that these days. Lately I've been saying, oh yeah, I just read. And when I say that, I'm like, no, I saw on Instagram two sentences over a stock photo, you know, well, where's my mind? And so, you know, I think Austin felt like someone who truly, you know, there's. He also probably has an insecurity being like a failed athlete. And so he wants to feel useful and smart. And so he is trying to grasp at these larger concepts but can't. And, but I think, I think for a lot of us, all the things we're grasping at are true. You know, we just don't have the means to fully understand it and to even understand why it's happening. But I love the way that Charles played Austen too. Cause in the wrong hands, it could have been very like too much of a buffoon, you know, like a classic, like himbo. And I think Charles, he injected so much more humanity into this character. He was so protective of Austin. There are often times where he was so locked in that he would make the entire crew laugh. Just like destroyed on set. And then he would have to go to his trailer upset.

[Chris Ryan]

Cause it's like, are you laughing at me? With me?

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, yeah. And he was like, he was like, I feel like everyone's laughing at me. I don't know why people are laughing at Austin. Austin means well. He's like trying and so, like, now, like, given some distance from the character, he'll, like, watch the show and laugh at himself more than anybody else. But in the moment, he was so in Austin that he couldn't even take the fact that he was crushing on set.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I've read varying reports on this. Like, do you write for these actors specifically, if possible? Like, did you write this for him with him in mind? And was that also the case? Or maybe we know it's not the case for the older couple and we could talk about that.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, I try to attach actors really early on. Cause I can't write to people in a vacuum or write characters in a vacuum. And Charles was the first piece because I knew the half Korean arc was really important to me. And I watched May December and was blown away like everybody else. That scene on the roof where he smokes pot, it's heartbreaking, but so funny.

[Chris Ryan]

He's so amazing in Warfare too. It's like, if you see him in Warfare, like, it's mind blowing what he's doing in Beef, because you're like, oh, you could be like. I mean, he kind of does remind me of Brad Pitt in that way, where it's like, he's capable of being the punchline in a scene, but he's also capable of being, like, a full leading man.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, he's a complete chameleon. And so I attached him really early, and, like, you know, we became fast friends. He likes to tell this story about on the basketball court. Cause I was renting this house, and there was a basketball court and playing basketball, like, every week. And he was getting these early drafts, and there wasn't a lot. You know, his arc was, like, paced out to be what it is. And again, locked into Austin. He was kind of, like, upset. He's like, I'm just the side character. And he tells a story of him blocking me really badly. And that that was him taking out all this frustration.

[Chris Ryan]

What's your story?

[Sonny Lee]

My story is that I think I won 11 4.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that was a foul.

[Sonny Lee]

Ye. Yeah. But no, I think what's great about Charles is that he just gave so much of himself to the project. Like, you know, all that time on the basketball court, I was, like, mentally noting all the little ways he spoke. Like, Charles loves to put handles on his. Like, whatever he says, he'll be like, if I may say this, Sonny. My perspective is. My perspective is Sonny. That I think. And so he'll, like, say all these handles before he gets to his point. And so I'm like, oh, that's so Austin. And so I was just jotting down all these Charles isms to kind of make this character very bespoke to him. But I did that for everybody. You know, I think just hours and hours of conversations with Kaylee, with Oscar, with Carrie. You know, Oscar and Carrie, like, you know, they discover a lot in rehearsals. And like, we'll have like, hours of like, really in depth zoom conversations about super personal things. And so then I'll spiritually put that into the characters. But then dialogue, that's all. A lot of it is discovered in rehearsals. And then that'll kind of get them feeling good. And then usually after that, we'll like, start to put back some of the, like, little ornamental, like, jokes and stuff that we liked. And then once they feel like they're in a good foundational place, then they're more apt to try some of the sillier jokes and stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

When did Carrie and Oscar come on and did you have to tweak? For example, Carrie being English is essential to the character now in a way that I can't imagine it otherwise.

[Sonny Lee]

Yes, I am.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I don't know what draft that turn occurred.

[Sonny Lee]

They came on pretty early. It was Charles and Kaylie first. And then I was sort of looking at different configurations of actors that had a history behind them.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you wanted people who had worked together before.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah. Cause the first impression of Josh and Lindsay's so bad that I was really worried that no matter how we write it, we might lose the audience if they don't feel this inherent subtext between the two. And so Oscar and Carrie, it's like they're in two of the greatest movies of this century between Drive and Inside Lemon Davis. And so I went out after Oscar first just because we're both at wme. And that was easier.

[Andy Greenwald]

So romantically.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah. I wish I had a better story

[Chris Ryan]

because I blocked his shot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

I was just like, you know what

[Andy Greenwald]

jokes about his height in the show?

[Sonny Lee]

There is. Yeah. And he. I mentioned Carrie and he, like, lit up. Cause I guess they've been pitching each other for every project they've done since I, Lou and Davis. And so I went to Carrie pretty soon after.

[Chris Ryan]

Didn't he say she's like his favorite person to act with?

[Sonny Lee]

Basically, yeah. They have a safety between them that is like, insane. Like, you watch them together and it just feels like. It's like. I don't even want to say Jordan Pippen. It's like two Jordans, you know, like Spider Man. Spider Man.

[Chris Ryan]

I hate to go to a casino with those guys.

[Sonny Lee]

There's a shorthand between them that is, like, unreal. And they just. They don't even have to say anything. They just, like, know, like, where the other person's going. Like, one person starts to push the scene a certain way, and there's, like, not a missed beat. It's really crazy to watch. But, yeah, I think they both attached pretty early on. I think I had maybe like, one draft of the pilot that I had sent to them. And, you know, once Carrie was on, I'm just like, oh, we have to switch to British.

[Andy Greenwald]

She's amazing on the show. And the specificity. And this is a theme I keep coming back to when talking about how much I love the season. But the specificity of her being sort of this slightly failed British aristocracy posh lady who everyone who sees her on Instagram thinks she's thriving. But of course, she's run out of funds and she searches the daily mail for people she knew or once slept with. That twinned with the absolute millennial headshot of Josh loving Hot Chip, which is so specific and not a diss at Hot Chip. But I've never met anyone who said Hot Chip is my number one favorite band.

[Chris Ryan]

They haven't heard the whole frequency spectrum of.

[Andy Greenwald]

But it's so razor sharp. And that's what makes the show. And are those the things that you have? Do those things happen first you think of that and the character comes from that, or as you're building the character, do those details just populate?

[Sonny Lee]

It's as we're building it. And that was really early on with Oscar because truthfully, early drafts had him. The synth stuff and the Moog stuff didn't exist. It was sort of like first thought laziness. We had written more that he was really into the Lumineers. And so we had I'm here for that season three scenes where he, like, there was like, he's doing Hey, a lot of Jo Hei. Like, covering Johei. And I think also I was like, I was so hell bent on. Remember that outkast cover of hey Ya? That was acoustic.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, sure.

[Sonny Lee]

And I just. That's so millennial cringe to me that I was like, hell bent on getting that in the show in any which way or form. And so I think that's why I leaned so hard into the acoustic guitar for Josh. But once we started talking about it, Oscar and I was like, okay, you did that on Inside Loom and Davis, like, we don't need to see Oscar Isaac with an acoustic Guitar again. Like, how am I ever gonna beat the Coen brothers? That just won't happen. So we started talking about other things that are millennial cringe. And then the idea of a 40 some year old just like having this mini moog and just. Cause moogs are also really hard. You buy it and then you think you're gonna get really good at oscillators or it's never cool. So that's when we were like started really laughing together. We talked about that seminal concert at the bowl where we literally name check in the show with LCD and Hot Chip opening. I feel like every person my age who lived in LA at that time was at that show and cried and probably was on Molly probably posted about

[Andy Greenwald]

it on Twitter when it was good.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so that's where we started having fun. We're like, oh, should it be LCD or something? But like Hot Chip felt like that perfect bullseye of. I mean, they're an incredible band. I've seen them so much live. But like you said, they don't quite get the shine that they deserve. And they're also a band that would. That Troy could call and in a moment show up at a Denver chalet or a Utah chalet and play at this like weird event. And so it was just like a lot of conversations talking about things that we find cringy about ourselves, you know.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that also where. Because I was curious about the pop culture references and the thinking around like, you know, rooting these characters in, having fights about Bullet Trainer, Top Gun, Maverick and Mescal Mezgal Knights. And yeah, like the idea of like you populate it with. It's funny too because like, I guess Josh and Lindsay do a little more of it than Austin and Ashley because it's probably like they have more time to kill and they're more, you know, they're like still indulging in all of their cultural obsessions or whatever, but go

[Andy Greenwald]

to the beach once a week.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. But like imagine, you know, like Austin and Ashley are kind of like grinding to make ends meet. But when you, when you're putting in references to contemporary pop culture, are you like, how do I make this so that it's not immediately like, you know, in a year this is going to be like, okay, we've dated ourselves.

[Sonny Lee]

I think it's just. It has to feel like it's coming from character, you know, like even season one, when Danny, like, I think he name checks like Linkin Park Hybrid Theory, you know, and it's like it's just. We just did that. Cause, like, that is what that person Danny would be talking about even in 2023 at the time. And I think for someone like. Like Josh and Lindsay, I just felt like I had heard different couples post Covid fighting about that. Like, I've heard that, like, structure of a fight amongst friends of, like, well, I didn't get to go to that because you had Covid, you know? And so, like, just having heard that so many times in my own life, I'm like, okay. Like, that structure is very relatable. Like, what movie could be that? And Top Gun Maverick and Bullet Train. Those are just like. I don't know. There's things that I feel like. Feel more of Josh.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Sonny Lee]

I don't think Josh is going to the theater to see Director Parks the Handmaiden at the Laemmle when it opens.

[Chris Ryan]

But you have to be careful because it's gotta be something that Oscar Isaac could not possibly have been in.

[Sonny Lee]

You know, we do, and he's been in a lot.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm like, you are in Drive Dog.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

What you're speaking to is so interesting. Cause I think that the. One of the skills that you and your crew and creatives have is to draw the universality out of something very specific. And I'm thinking in this case about the way you use phones and social media, which I think is the best I've ever seen on a TV show. Because it's not just the text on screen, which we've seen, it's the swappings between apps which mirrors the way. And this is something we were talking about last week, the way our interiority is so impatient and so restless and we can just feed ourselves constantly, even within a thumb movement, and the way that it informs the scene so that Austin is just speaking chatgpt, sweating, trying to keep his head above water or. And you may have heard me say this last week, too, I love that your show ran at the reality of recently deleted. Because I think generally when movies and TV use phones, they allied the bits that don't work for the drama that it would still exist in the cloud, but you ran right towards it. And can you talk a little bit about that conversation that you have with your writers about how we have to use what is actually out there?

[Sonny Lee]

Thank you for noticing that. Because we spend an inordinate amount of time talking about exactly that. I think that backup video thing is a good call out because there was some debate in the room of, like, should we abandon this backup video? Because, like, yeah, like, they would back it up to the cloud. And. And it's just, you know, the things I've learned from watching stuff that I love, like Sopranos and Breaking Bad, they're always, like, not shying away from the thing that, like, backs you into a corner, because that's what life does. Life backs you into a corner. And so then, yeah, like. Like, you know, if Ashley, like, deletes the text, then, like, recently deleted. Oh, that sucks that it's there. But then, like, we should lean into that. Like, we can make that a story point. Yeah, and I think so. We're always just trying to, like, look at our own lives the way we feel, and try to figure out the most efficient way to dramatize that. You know, the app switching thing, that's. I gotta shout out someone on our vfx, Melissa Khan, she came up with that this season. I thought it was just brilliant, you know, because it's such a quick way to do exactly what you're talking about. But we pore over everything from, like, we spent hours, like, trying to find, like, the right, like, font and, like, you know, how much is true to the actual OS versus, like, taking liberty and bending it. Like, how do we just make this feel? Like, how it feels for us when we use our phones. And even in the mix, when Ashley's texting Austin about, you know, can you go to H and M? Can you do this? Like, we boosted the. His fast, angry typing. Because that's how it feels when you're, like, angrily replying to somebody. Like, you hear it a little louder. And so just all these, like, very subjective ways we can create that experience because it's that that phone is just a part of who we are now, and there's no going back.

[Chris Ryan]

There's even, like, the stuff that happens when Ashley is texting Eunice about. And it's like, Ashley's been in an accident, but, like, her texting as Austin is not Austin's voice kind of stuff, which is like, that makes or breaks things. It can take you out of. Out of the reality of what's happening if it's not. If it's not accurate. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the Monte Vista and the golf club stuff and then the connection to Seoul. And I know you wanted to talk about this as well, but I was curious whether or not to start with that camera fully formed to you as like, a whole package of this is where I want the show to go and this is this other element of the show or whether that was something that was developed over, you know, after thinking about these four characters for a while, there was like, I want to bring another element in.

[Sonny Lee]

Was the former. Because, you know, Charles was the first piece. Because I knew that this half Korean identity tug of war was something that's gonna be very important to this season. And as part of that tug of war, I knew that native Korea was gonna be on one end of that. And again, it was just writing from what I know what I was experiencing. After season one, I shot a music video for RM1 of the guys in BTS in Korea. And I hadn't been back in a really long time and getting the red carpet rolled out for me and getting wined and dined in the private halls of a Korean conglomerate. And it was. There was. I joked to this one actual chairwoman, I was like, hey, like, I'm getting like a skin, like self conscious about my skin because you're like making me meet all these K pop idols. Yeah. And she just like, without missing a beat, she was just like, oh, I'll send you to my skin guy. I was like, what? Like, oh, tomorrow in the morning, a black SUV will pick you up and we'll send you to our skin guy. Don't worry. And so I'm like, okay. When in Rome.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, you look great.

[Sonny Lee]

Well, you know, that's why I look

[Andy Greenwald]

like I go back.

[Sonny Lee]

But I did this light laser and I was just writing in my notes app the whole time. I was like, this is fascinating. And I remember writing in my notes app before I even had like a page of anything for the show. I just wrote old boy style fight and skin clinic with skin flying around. I'm just like, I haven't seen that before. And you look around and this is like a world that's like thriving. Like, it's like one of the biggest, you know, like agents of tourism for the country. Like, people are like going over there in the masses and no one's really like, dramatized this. And I'm always looking for new slices of the Asian and Asian American experience to showcase. And we had covered so much California, Korean American diaspora. And I'm like, well, this is new and exciting to me. And so that was baked into the Charles arc. How we went about it definitely changed. As you attach two of the greatest Korean actors of all time, that's the

[Andy Greenwald]

segue to what I was gonna ask you. Not only have Yoon Yoo Jung, who won an Oscar and is an incredible actress as the supervillain of the show, you got Song Kang Ho, who's One of the greatest actors alive to play a mostly comedic supporting part on the show. So how did those conversations happen?

[Sonny Lee]

Miracle after miracle? You know, yj, I had met through Steven, obviously, on Minari. They worked together, and I think I had emailed her, and then she was interested. So then I met her in Irvine, actually. I had, like, a chairwoman, Mickey Lee, who's like, the head of CJ at her house. So it's, like, already very meta. And I was pitching YJ the arc, and. And, you know, she's so. She's much like her character. So intimidating because you just hold so much gravity. You know, she is, like, truly royalty. And once it got to the part where she had a husband 20 years younger, she just started cackling. And she was like, no one in Korea would ever have the courage to write me a husband 20 years younger. And I think, you know, she's had such a storied career to be offered something where she can feel like she's doing something new. It's, I think, something she's chasing. So she was in, and then I told her, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go after Song Kang Ho. Cause, like, why not? Like, let's go for the moonshot? And, you know, he. I had met through the success of season one. We had dinner in Korea a couple times, and I knew he was a fan of the show, but I also know, like, pitching him something that's like, you know, the sixth lead is, like, probably not gonna go over that well. And also, he had a very busy shoot schedule that he was already doing other stuff. So his initial reaction was, no. Like, I sent him a scene, and he was just like. Like, I don't know if it's gonna work with my schedule, and I'm probably not right for this. And I went back to yj and I told her, and she just wasn't gonna have it. She was like, I'm gonna call him. So she called him direct, and she was just like, hey, you're Song Kang Ho. You're the greatest actor alive. What are you talking about? You, like, don't know how to figure this out? Like, you're gonna figure out how to play this. It's gonna be great, and you're gonna be in the show. And so then, like, 48 hours later, I got, like, a sheepish text from Song Kang Ho being like, hey, change of heart.

[Andy Greenwald]

At what point did you tell him what may be the masterpiece of the season, which is his long, beautiful soliloquy about the mask of wealth and celebrity and what lies behind it and the dark truth of life. And then Austin says, I think I heard soup.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, yeah, he got that pretty late. Cause I'm like notoriously late with my scripts. And the finale was written deep into the shoot and I think he was getting a little anxious, to be honest. He was texting me a lot through shoot about golfing in classic, I think Korean misunderstanding. Kind of like Charles and Charles's character and Dr. Kim. He had texted me early on being like, is there going to be golf in the show? And I thought, hopefully, yeah, I thought hopeful. And I was like, sure, whatever you want. You're the greatest actor of all time. He's like, well, please let me know if there's golf in the show. And I was like, do you want golf? And he's like, if there's golf in the show, I would just love to know. And I was like, I can write you a golf scene.

[Chris Ryan]

Does he need to get his wing dialed?

[Sonny Lee]

And he was like, fantastic. If there's a golf scene. Great. Please send. And I was like, I went to the writers room. I was like, guys, we have to write a golf scene first. And this whole time we're going back and forth about this golf scene. And I was like, this guy's weirdly obsessed with wanting to play golf in a show. That's cool. And it wasn't until we were on the day shooting in Korea that he told me that he was so nervous cause he doesn't know how to golf.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh my God.

[Sonny Lee]

And so he was stressed and I was like, oh man, I wish I would have known.

[Andy Greenwald]

You call this guy. That's his dream, dream job.

[Chris Ryan]

This is just YouTube videos I can send him.

[Andy Greenwald]

Ultimately, I wondered, you know, you finished the show a while ago. It's out now for a couple weeks. I don't know if you've had much time to reflect, but do you feel like this season of Beef is ultimately cynical about love and marriage or clear eyed about it?

[Chris Ryan]

That's a great question.

[Sonny Lee]

That's a good question.

[Andy Greenwald]

Follow up, are you married?

[Sonny Lee]

I am married. And I think. I think it's been interesting seeing everyone's different reactions. Cause I've been trying to get better about that. Season one, I literally read every single word written on the Internet about the show. There doesn't exist a word about Beef I hadn't read in season one, you

[Andy Greenwald]

need to go to Korea and get a laser treatment for that part of your brain that's holding onto all of it.

[Sonny Lee]

And season two, I'm trying To be better and stay off the Internet a little bit more. But I have seen some people are taking it very cynically and other people are like, oh, that's actually, like, really beautiful. And I think it is doing what we intended where we wanted the ending to be open to interpretation. We want that beholder share, and we also want people's interpretation to change over time depending on where you're at in life. And so, like, that's my favorite stuff is, you know, Sopranos, Mad Men, like, you know, I'll go and rewatch a Coen Brothers movie. Oh, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I was thinking about Burn after reading a lot with this.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah. Where I'm like, oh, the way I received it in my youth is different than the way I'm receiving it now. And that's our intention with this ending is, yeah, if you're in a certain spot, you might take this super cynical. Where I'm currently at, I actually see it as, like, acceptance. And, you know, the reason we depicted the. The Buddhist concept of Samsara as our last note was like, you know, the point of Samsara isn't to be like, oh, like, we're in this, like, eternal trap. Like, how cynical and give up. Like, the path to enlightenment is like, the acceptance of Samsara, and it's only in, like, the letting go of it and in the, like, almost like letting the wave of this wash over you that. That there is hope of breaking the cycle and hopefully pushing through this trap into enlightenment. And so I personally, I mean, this may change in 10, 20 years, I don't know. But I certainly was trying to express a level of acceptance at the end.

[Chris Ryan]

So I guess as a way to sort of kind of start to wrap up. How durable do you think this concept of beef is for you? Like, I. I love the idea of a bucket. You could put anything you're interested in as a show, but I know you're obviously a busy guy. How much do you find yourself putting down ideas on a notes app and being like, that's a beef idea. This fight. I heard this conversation. I had this idea. It may not be like, Beef season three is rolling, but beef season three is in your mind somewhere.

[Sonny Lee]

Definitely not. All my beef ideas that I had in my notes app, I had pitched to Netflix in trying to get a Season 2, which didn't happen for the longest time, too. I was like, what is happening? I'm the beef guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Have you guys seen the TED Talk?

[Sonny Lee]

I said, shoot, I've run out. I definitely have tried to express everything I can through this show. And if this is the last season, which at this point, I think is a collective decision between myself and Netflix, I would be perfectly happy if this was the last season. Cause I'm really proud of the work we did. And I feel like I've said everything I needed to say through the show, but I also didn't expect season two to even happen. I didn't. I was gonna write about two couples until real life hit me. And so if something hits a year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, I'm definitely open. But currently, it is a very emotionally exhausting show to do. It's like you really are sitting in the shadows of yourself for an extremely long time.

[Chris Ryan]

And I gotta write all these golf scenes.

[Sonny Lee]

Gotta write all these golf scenes. So I'm ready to. I have so many other things I want to pursue. We're pretty knee deep in X Men right now, which has been such a joy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Relative to this is when I would use. I would send Netflix the Tim Robinson thing of like, oh, my God, I can't believe he admit it, because I'm asking you about that next. So I'm happy you said the word first.

[Sonny Lee]

Sure. Yeah, of course. No, I think I definitely need a break from. From this vessel of literally, this show is called Beef. It's just antagonism.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, season three could be the brothers from Kings of Leon's beef with each other just throwing it out there.

[Sonny Lee]

That would be easier to write it.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you said it so we didn't have to awkwardly dance around it. You are one of the writers announced working on the X Men movie for Marvel. And I don't want to get you into any trouble with NDAs and things, but I was curious, process aside, your X Men fandom, like, coming into it, who's your era? Who are your guys? Who are your creators? What brought you into that franchise before you got the call and what interests you about them?

[Sonny Lee]

Oh, I mean, growing up, like, that was, like, the one thing my dad and I would watch together every Saturday morning.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it's the cartoon.

[Sonny Lee]

Well, that was the initial way in, you know, and, like, cartoon for me, like, I was obsessed with Gambit, you know, obviously, like, Jubilee, like, you're like, oh, like, Asian face. You know, like, how cool. Like, in this, like, group of superheroes. And so Gambit and Jubilee were like, my jam. And, like, I was really obsessed with Gambit. And then, like, you kind of, you know, like everybody else, you go in through Claremont, and, you know, I think that the feeling of sort of the original team, I think, is the movies. I love the movies as well, but, like, it's a feeling that I miss, you know, and when you go back and watch. Not watch, but, like, read some of the earlier stuff, there, there's so much, like, inner team, like, almost like, soapy things.

[Andy Greenwald]

Super melodramatic. You know, they're either fighting the danger room or playing softball, and it's all about their own.

[Sonny Lee]

Exactly. Yeah. And I think the movies, in a great way, leaned into more of the political backdrop, which is just always baked into X Men. But I think what's exciting about Jake's vision for this movie is he wants to get back to character first. He wants to really lean into sort of that inner character dynamics and relationships and play around with. With the soapy stuff that was baked into the comics. And we've been, you know, me, Joanna, Jake, Kevin, Lou. We've been in rooms every single day. And it's so exciting, like, to have, like, literally in the Marvel room, they have every character in the X Men comics just, like, put on the wall, and you're just staring at the best IP on the planet.

[Chris Ryan]

You're like, can I get Bishop X?

[Sonny Lee]

It's the craziest thing. It truly is. Like, I can't believe this is real. Like, it's so exc. And that's also the hard part of it. It's like, you know, you feel a great responsibility with this cause. Yeah, we, like, amongst us, we are, like, we're trying to. We can really do anything. We're not, like, beholden to anything from the past.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's interesting because I think that one of the reasons why the MCU was so successful is because Kevin and his lieutenants were just elite at identifying the single logline at the heart of every one of these characters and communicating that, like, with a purity. And then that continued on through Spider Man. And I think that you guys. And I know you worked on Thunderbolts, you were able to do that with characters that people weren't even necessarily aware of, or at least their connection going into it. X Men, it almost felt like for years, I always thought that maybe they were lucky not to have it in their arsenal because the logline is hunted and feared. Kids who hang out together, but who also are avatars for every marginalized class in history, but then have a large, you know, global villains gallery, but then also maybe shouldn't be fighting because they are an evolution of humanity.

[Sonny Lee]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I guess the question in there is how?

[Sonny Lee]

Well, I think. I mean, we're really early on. And I think what I've loved about working with Kevin especially is that that guy just has, like, an uncanny innate sense of, like, what to chase. It's crazy. And I think Marvel has done a really great job of sort of clearing the deck. They had a lot of stuff going on. You know, Kevin was being pulled in a million directions. Like, they've cleared the deck. They're focusing on, like, just a couple things.

[Andy Greenwald]

You took Moon Knight season two off the table.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, took it right off the table. I'm so sorry. There are so many ardent Moon Knight fans, but never say never. And Kevin's really locked in and his. There's times in the room where he'll say something where I think this, and then I'll be on the carpet. And of course, every interview question is about X Men. And then seven fans will come up. And then the thing that the seven fans say is literally the thing that Kevin said in the room yesterday. So I'm just like, oh, he is just tapped in. And I think he's put a lot of trust into Jay because I think they're very happy with how Thunderbolts turned out and that it is a character first movie. So, you know, it's really exciting. You know, I love. I have a pep in my step going to work because it's like, you know, one, it's a nice break from this, and then two, you know, like, childhood me is just like, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you, like, driving to Burbank? Like, I can't believe I'm, I'm, I'm doing this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, are you getting notes from your dad?

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, like, my. My dad, it's like, you know, when I told him that I got this, he was just like, that's the good one.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's incredible.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That's all I would ever need, man. Thank you so much for coming by. Congratulations on this season. Good luck with X Men.

[Sonny Lee]

Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

We will be monitoring the situation closely.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, I'm sure you.

[Chris Ryan]

And please come back and join us again sometime soon, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I got a list of follow ups. Like, could Magneto and Wolverine ever fight because of.

[Sonny Lee]

Yeah, no, let's. Let's talk about it in a few weeks. All right, sounds good. Thanks.

[Chris Ryan]

Take care, man.