Catching Up on ‘Slow Horses,’ ‘The Lowdown,’ and ‘The Chair Company.’ Plus, the ‘Black Rabbit’ Creators!

Summary

The Watch — October 23, 2025

Podcast: The Watch
Hosts: Chris Ryan & Andy Greenwald
Episode: Catching Up on ‘Slow Horses,’ ‘The Lowdown,’ and ‘The Chair Company.’ Plus, the ‘Black Rabbit’ Creators!

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Episode Overview

This episode finds Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald catching up on some major TV series, including "Slow Horses," "The Lowdown," and "The Chair Company," before welcoming writers and creators of Netflix’s "Black Rabbit," Zach Balin and Kate Sussman, for an in-depth interview. The hosts dissect the shifting television landscape, provide sharp and affectionate critiques, and delve into industry anecdotes with their signature mix of humor and insight. The conversation traverses the tonal challenges of genre TV, nostalgic industry musings, and the meticulous craft behind character-driven drama.

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Main Topics & Timestamps

1. Light Banter, Industry News, and TV's Shifting Landscape
   [01:04]–[10:10]
2. ‘Slow Horses’ Season Review & Discussion
   [10:10]–[27:36]
3. Deep Dive: ‘The Lowdown’
   [27:36]–[41:19]
4. Chair Company, Tim Robinson, and Modern Comedy
   [43:25]–[53:59]
5. Interview: Zach Balin & Kate Sussman, ‘Black Rabbit’ Creators
   [54:55]–[94:55]

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1. Light Banter, Industry News, & TV Nostalgia

[01:04]–[10:10]

• Chris and Andy chat about recent TV obsessions and their podcast rhythms.
• Andy jokes about "quiet quitting" his podcast duties after being left out of a "Rewatchables" episode about his favorite film, "Sneakers."
• The duo reminisce on the return of NBA on NBC and nostalgia for "event" TV:
  “What would happen if NBC was just like, ‘We’re just going to run from the 80s, dude… like Run and everything is vintage’...” — Chris Ryan [04:34]
• Conversation pivots to the news that Adam Driver and Steven Soderbergh pitched a Ben Solo "Star Wars" film, only for Bob Iger to shut it down:
  “It’s fucking nuts that that’s Bob Iger’s bright line that can’t be crossed.” — Andy Greenwald [07:06]

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2. ‘Slow Horses’ Season Review & Discussion

[10:10]–[27:36]

London Gossip and Filming Tidbits

[10:20]

• Andy recounts how "Slow Horses" is so embedded in London life that you might stumble into a film shoot by accident:
  “...they realized that everyone else on the bus was an extra because they were filming Slow Horses season six...” — Andy Greenwald [10:27]

Tone, Comedy, and Stakes

[11:04]–[17:24]

• Andy expresses wavering commitment after episode four’s comedic absurdity (notably a Rube Goldberg paint pot death):
  “...the show has pushed too far into comic absurdity that its attempts to create stakes... are rendered moot to me.” — Andy Greenwald [12:14]
• Chris counters, appreciating the unpredictability and "stupid things happening" in a world prone to chaos.
• Both reflect on the show's tonal balancing act between situational comedy and spy thriller, noting "Slow Horses" leans more into the sitcom side.

Long-Running TV Structure and Complaints

[18:56]–[23:20]

• Discussion of static character archetypes (e.g., Jackson Lamb as omniscient) and the sitcom parallels. “It’s a comedy... but these people are completely implausible as MI5 agents, and that’s the bit.” — Andy Greenwald [19:32] “If the comp for the show is Frasier... seems churlish to complain about how Niles is prissy.” — Andy Greenwald [16:20]
• Praise for Gary Oldman’s performance—craving more vulnerability from Lamb.

Series Arc and What’s Working

[23:20]–[27:36]

• The compression of space and time this season is lauded as adding urgency. “...really does feel like these people are racing against a clock and paired up in interesting ways.” — Chris Ryan [22:28]
• The hosts want "a higher narrative body count"—essentially more risk and consequence.

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3. Deep Dive: ‘The Lowdown’

[27:36]–[41:19]

Unpredictable, Urgent, Lyrical TV

[27:39]–[33:20]

• Chris calls "The Lowdown" one of his favorite shows of the year—a show that mixes comfort (“an album by a great band”) and harrowing Americana.
• The Dinklage guest episode and the scene where Lee (Ethan Hawke) is led through a sinister rural cop party are cited as highlights.

“It has the energy, if not the firepower, of the Boogie Nights firecracker scene, except this is the rural outdoor version.” — Andy Greenwald [29:33]

• Andy marvels at how the show juggles mystery, urgency, and atmospheric digressions.

Tulsa as Character & Casting Brilliance

[33:20]–[40:07]

• They praise Sterling Harjo’s ability to weave Native American perspectives into the show, deepening the narrative’s weight.
• The actor ensemble—Kyle MacLachlan, Keith David, Paul Sparks—is described as a murderers’ row (“...a palpable energy exchange when you watch actors who really fucking love acting act.” — Andy Greenwald [34:41])
• Touch on Graham Greene’s last appearance and what that brings emotionally.

Show’s Soul & Ethos

[40:07]–[41:19]

• The show allows actors to shine without treating the lead as the sole "sun" of the series—every character resonates.

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4. Chair Company, Tim Robinson, and Modern Comedy

[43:25]–[53:59]

Tim Robinson’s Comic Genius

[43:25]–[47:20]

• Chris and Andy discuss Tim Robinson’s new HBO Max series, "Chair Company," summarizing it as “Parallax View meets The Office.”
• The hosts laugh over favorite scenes:
  “Him being like, ‘Give me a reason to call my lawyer, yo...’” — Chris Ryan [43:57]

Artistic Stretch and Comparisons

[47:20]–[49:23]

• Andy analyzes Robinson’s artistry:
  “He is the patron saint of a certain type of 2020s American masculinity.” — Andy Greenwald [46:36]
• Mentions the kinship to Will Ferrell, Danny McBride, and even P.T. Anderson’s “absurdist” humor.

The Absurdity of TV Pitches

[51:23]

• Andy jokes about how Robinson’s show pitch must have been:
  “I sit on a chair, it breaks. What the fuck happens next? And [HBO] are like, here’s a bag of money...” — Andy Greenwald [51:23]

Meta TV Criticism

[52:33]–[53:59]

• Banter about the proliferation of high-concept streaming shows versus the simplicity of Robinson’s premise.

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5. Interview: Zach Balin & Kate Sussman, ‘Black Rabbit’

[54:55]–[94:55]

Show’s Tone and Influences

[55:44]–[57:51]

• "Black Rabbit" balances operatic family drama with relentless, realistic stakes; influences cited include "Uncut Gems," "Before the Devil Knows You’re Dead," and "Michael Clayton."
• On blending entertainment and heavy themes:
  “Could you tell a really emotional story... but also keep your foot on the gas of the kind of knives that are getting thrown at the guys the whole time?” — Zach Balin [55:44]

Realism, Addiction, Plausibility

[57:51]–[62:01]

• The creative team made sure all financial and lifestyle details—apartment rents, car types—were plausible for the characters.
  “He’s someone who is constantly, like, on the edge of winning... is he the atom bomb of himself?” — Zach Balin [61:08]

Narrative Pacing and Flashbacks

[62:01]–[69:04]

• The show’s structure intentionally staggers tension; the Laura Linney “block” is praised for character depth.
• Flashbacks were created late and serve to reveal pivotal life moments naturally rather than as exposition.

Acting, Improv, and Rewriting

[69:04]–[74:44]

• Bateman and Law infused the characters with surprise and dynamism; on Bateman’s Vince:
  “This guy doesn’t cry...” — Kate Sussman [70:12] “Jason brought such an indignant attitude... like, I can’t believe I have to ask for a Coke here.” — Zach Balin [70:46]

• The creative process was open to improvisation, provided dramatic intent stayed intact.

• Authenticity of New York as setting, city as character, is central—production benefited from post-strike resource availability and city enthusiasm.

Restaurants as Microcosm

[79:46]–[84:47]

• Inspiration from real NYC restaurants and scandals (e.g., Dressler, Spotted Pig) shaped the show’s themes of allure, ambition, and self-destruction.
  “...places that we went. And we were just really... captivated by how sexy and alluring and cool... but then when, you know, the Spotted Pig had this huge scandal…” — Kate Sussman [81:42]

The Grit and Glamour of NYC

[86:43]–[89:34]

• The show intentionally contrasts glamorous nightlife with the slog and solitude of daytime prep—reflecting the wear and tear, and impossible expectations, of running a restaurant in NYC.
• "Every night I put on this show. But then at the end of the night... it's not glamorous. Pretty lonely guy, you know, who's... like taking out a mortgage every single night." — Chris Ryan [84:10]

Future Storytelling and Creative Intent

[90:16]–[94:49]

• Balin and Sussman express excitement over TV as a medium for complex, adult, character-driven, “labyrinthine” drama but acknowledge it’s a challenging sell.
  “We did not want to make second screen TV... if you’re willing to pay attention, there will be a lot of reveals...” — Zach Balin [93:15]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On TV's Comfort and Comedy:
  “If the comp for the show is Frasier, then it seems churlish to complain about how Niles is prissy all the time,” — Andy Greenwald [16:20]

• On Tim Robinson’s Appeal:
  “He is the patron saint of a certain type of 2020s American masculinity… a frustration and desire for specialness that seethes from that swollen vein in his neck.” — Andy Greenwald [46:36]

• On the Allure of New York Nightlife:
  “What the show... [is] about is somewhere where what the presentation is and what the show is is not what's actually happening. And, like, reflects a lot about the brothers.” — Kate Sussman [83:46]

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Key Takeaways

• "Slow Horses" continues to oscillate between satire and spy drama, embracing comedic set-pieces while also (occasionally) hinting at real dramatic stakes—though Andy is craving more risk and novelty from the show’s formula.
• "The Lowdown" is praised for its tonal sophistication, stellar ensemble, and ability to move between hangout vibes and unsettling, conspiratorial dread, cementing its place as a sleeper hit of the year.
• "Chair Company" represents a new apex for Tim Robinson’s “silly with soul” comic persona, with both Chris and Andy in awe of his ability to stretch absurdity into new formats.
• "Black Rabbit" is revealed to be the product of deep, authentic research and a creative process open to improvisation, resulting in a drama both propulsive and painfully relatable—anchored in the unique tensions and possibilities of New York City.
• The episode, as always, is marked by Chris and Andy’s deft interplay—mixing nostalgia, sharp analysis, and pure comedic joy across TV’s evolving landscape.

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For Further Listening

• [24:30] "Slow Horses": Deep dive on episodic structure, Gary Oldman's performance, and criticism of static archetypes.
• [29:31] "The Lowdown": Highlight breakdown of Kyle MacLachlan’s chilling scene and the show’s ability to mix genre.
• [43:25] "Chair Company": Hilarious breakdown of Tim Robinson’s method and comic archetype.
• [54:55] "Black Rabbit" Interview: Process behind the show, authentic NYC vibes, Bateman/Law dynamic, and creative philosophy.

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This episode offers an essential snapshot of where prestige—and comfort—TV is in Fall 2025: self-aware, genre-hopping, and led by creators invested in both realism and inventiveness. The creators of "Black Rabbit" shine a light on the value of specificity and risk in TV drama, while Chris and Andy’s banter reminds listeners that even as content multiplies, strong voices and sharp critique remain indispensable.

Transcript

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

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[Chris Ryan]

So good, so good, so good.

[Andy Greenwald]

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[Kate Sussman]

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[Andy Greenwald]

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[Kate Sussman]

Cause I always find something amazing.

[Chris Ryan]

Just so many good brands. I get an extra 5% off with my Nordstrom credit card. Total queen treatment.

[Andy Greenwald]

Join the Nordy Club at Nordstrom Rack to unlock our best deal.

[Chris Ryan]

Big gifts, big perks.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's why you wreck pain sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me on the other line, worth approximately $24 a share, it's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

I regret to inform you the footsie's already closed here and my market cap has decreased.

[Chris Ryan]

Is your stock upside down, brother?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's not where I want it to be.

[Chris Ryan]

Is Rishi kind of going long on you, but only to short other things?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but it's also like late season three. Rishi. It's not early days. Rishi, over here.

[Chris Ryan]

It's White Christmas. Rishi. Andy, it's just really, really important to see you today. Today on the Watch, we're gonna take a spin through some of the TV that we possibly neglected while we were diving deep on Task. We did Our Task finale pod came out Sunday night. There's an interview with Brad Inglesby, the creator of Task, in that podcast. I really enjoyed that chat. Thanks to everybody who who rode with us through the green forests of Delco. Sad to see that show over, but there's a lot of good TV on right now and a lot of good TV coming. So I'm excited to hit slow horses. Do a check in there, do a check in on the lowdown, and then get into the chair company, which has aired its first two episodes on hbo. Max. I also have my interview with Zach Balin and Kate Suss, who are the writers and creators of Black Rabbit, which is a show I really enjoyed on Netflix from a couple of weeks ago. It aired. It's still airing, but it debuted a couple of weeks ago on Netflix and was one that I just really enjoyed top to bottom. I found it very, very entertaining. So it's a really fun conversation with Zach and Kate.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also do want to. I know you love it when I do this. I do directly want to address the rumors that have been swirling out there that I was on some sort of. You know. Cause I've only. I've only talked task. Yeah, I also do want to. I know you love it when I do this. I do directly the rumors that have been swirling out there that I was on some sort of. You know, because I've only. I've only talked task with you in the last like ten days.

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

That you were like only Max. Only for me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and to those of you who thought it was because there was an episode of the Rewatchables devoted to my favorite film, sneakers, to which I was not a party.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The. The answer is yes. That was my quiet quitting.

[Chris Ryan]

So your way of doing this is you're just going to talk about hbo, Max, Sunday night shows. And you think that's different how? From what you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Listen. There's a soft power at work here that maybe you can't see right now, but between that and my Act Blue donations, I think that I'm really accomplishing a lot.

[Chris Ryan]

Can I tell you about last night? I got home from work and I was tucking into a. A bowl of. Of chopped salad.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that's not where I thought that was going. And I was like, really had big chunky soup energy.

[Chris Ryan]

No, no, no, no. And I'm not a big soup guy. But put that aside.

[Andy Greenwald]

I. You're not.

[Chris Ryan]

Watched the inaugural evening of NBA on NBC broadcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it's back. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Which came back with very nice production values and just a feeling of like, hey, this is an event not just like slop that we're putting on four nights a week now. That will probably change after four nights. But the feeling was like, actually like, there was a lot of anticipation. Round Ball Rock gets played. They have kind of like the. The vintage NB on NBC logo and vibe. And you're just like.

[Andy Greenwald]

That gets you going.

[Chris Ryan]

What do they say online return? You know, like, I'm getting into this and I was kind of sitting around thinking, boy, we know it would be cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. What would happen if one week NBC was just like, we're just going to run from the 80s, dude. Like, we're just going to pretend it's 1988 for the entire week or 1989, and then like Run and like, everything is vintage. And then I got as far as what about Cosby? Not funny.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I was like, we.

[Chris Ryan]

Right, we have to skip that part.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right, that's fine. I think that you, first of all, you do your best thinking when you're exhausted, clearly. And when John Tesh is ringing around in there.

[Chris Ryan]

I appreciate when the Harvest bowl comes in. That's when it really comes together.

[Andy Greenwald]

Here's the thing. We are involved in the entertainment industry, you know, in different ways. We, we exist due to its good grace, its dwindling good graces. So we shouldn't be giving away existentially ruinous ideas for free. That said, if you wanted to end all of this, NBC would just have to do what you suggested. But for 2005, if NBC just ran Medium and the super sized episodes of the Office, its ratings would be unchanged. A, it would be eventized. People would tune in to see it and all of this would come crumbling down. Like, so much of what we cover is based on the idea this glimmering golden city on a hill, that we can bring it back.

[Chris Ryan]

I know, I honestly.

[Andy Greenwald]

We can bring it back.

[Chris Ryan]

I think there should be a week where like Fox runs 24, ABC runs lost. Let's just go back. Let's just go back to when it was. When it was simple and true.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do it like Jack. Do it like Jack. Say we have to go back. It's right there for you.

[Chris Ryan]

Bob Iger. Hey, speaking of Bob Iger, I. Yeah, man. Wanted to know if you saw the story where Adam Driver and Steven Soderbergh and Scott Burns pitched a Ben Solo Star wars sequel and that even Filoni was like this pretty sick. Like, this is a pretty cool idea. And they were like, yes, yes, yes. And then they got to Bob Iger and Bob Iger was like, you got to be fucking kidding me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Guys, a couple things here. Did I see it? Do you understand that my existence for these weeks is that I have eight hours of just silence in which you and everyone I love is asleep And I can't talk to them about the news that Steven Soderbergh and Adam Driver pitched a Star wars movie? So, yeah, I'm pretty aware. I'm pretty aware. Two, it's fucking nuts that that's Bob Iger's book Bright line that can't be crossed.

[Chris Ryan]

You shall not cross.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, do you think that there is any way we can do kind of like cross tabs reporting on what else was going on the day that that came across his transom? Because, like, was that the day that his wife, Willow Bay called and was like, bob, Bob, LAFC is too woke. Like, we have to focus on women's soccer. And he's like, great, great. Just clear everything off today. They're like, but Sir Stephen and Adam. No, no, we can't focus on that today. No.

[Chris Ryan]

It sounds like he actually engaged with the idea and was like, we. Ben solos dead, though. As if that has ever stopped anything in Star wars before.

[Andy Greenwald]

Willow owns Angel City. I'm sorry, not lafc. It's a sister club, which I. It's a great time out at the old ball yard. Anyway. Yeah. I mean, it. Well, first of all, we do want creative executives. I think that's spiritually not a bad thing. But of all the things to get worried about, also, I do. You've talked to Soderbergh on the podcast before, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, I need a little more context to the actual, tangible dream work product that exists. Because there are. There's Soderbergh and Tony G. Were going to do. Yes, right. Or like, he and Tony were going to do Bond or they were going to do Star Wars. Like, there's so many dream projects of ours that exist, and every time they leak and it gets to the press, it's always like, oh, a draft was written. Like, is it a. Is it a. Is it a treatment? Is it a note? Is it a notes app? Was it a fever dream? Like, it's so. It's so.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you see what it was called?

[Andy Greenwald]

The Hunt for Ben Solo. Yo. That's the kind of.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what my next pod is going to be called. Yeah, that's my Solo pod.

[Andy Greenwald]

I told you about how. I told you. I've also said this on the podcast. That, like, in the same thing. It's true. This is our. This is our time together. This is our me time in, I want to say, like, 1983. Like, after return of the Jedi came out, I was on the playground in, I guess, first grade, and my best friend was like, I'm in the Star wars fan club. And I was like, that's so cool. And he's like, I get a magazine. I was like, I want a magazine. That's awesome. He's like, also, they're making a fourth film. It's called Revenge of the Jedi, and I get to be in it. You can be in it, too. What color lightsaber do you want? And I was like, this is the greatest day of my life. How fortuitous that I'm friends with you. And I came home with the Same open hearted spirit with which I love Tass and said to my parents, great news.

[Chris Ryan]

I will be Revenge of the Jedi.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And my parents were like, jedis don't seek revenge. They are wild tax collectors.

[Kate Sussman]

No.

[Zach Balin]

What?

[Andy Greenwald]

They were like, maybe you should find other friends. Like, maybe this friend is a bit of a fabulous, as they say later. Anyway, I bring this up only to say that the hunt for Ben Solo is not that different than Revenge of the Jedi is coming. You could pick your lightsaber.

[Chris Ryan]

I know.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Soderbergh's doing it. That's fucking crushing.

[Chris Ryan]

Where of these shows would you like to start? With the show that we haven't spoken about with the chair company. Would you like to check in on Slow Horses or would you like to check in on Lowdown?

[Andy Greenwald]

Was going to say Slow Horses first.

[Chris Ryan]

You're close to ground zero there.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're.

[Chris Ryan]

You're close to like the. The epicenter. What are the streets of London saying about this season of Slow Horses?

[Andy Greenwald]

My colleague at work here who lives at the Barbican said that she and her son were catching a bus outside the Barbican relatively recently. And the bus came and then they started to get on it and then realized that everyone else on the bus was an extra because they were filming Slow Horse in season six. And because it was such a quiet morning, they hadn't even like shut down the street. That's how in the streets that show is. Okay. Yeah. I want to have a conversation with you about this and I'm glad we're having it after the penultimate episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, Episode five. So we'll do spoilers for season five through episode five through Circus.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have to confess to you and to our loyal listeners that I was dangerously wavering on my commitment to. To this show. After episode 4. I was more out than I've ever been on a show that I am just essentially consistently in on. And I was shaken because you, you know, you came out hot. You were like, I've seen this season. It's the best since the first one. That's what I thought. Yes. So let's chop it up because. And here, here's what I'll say. And I'll also foreground this by saying episode five was much better, I thought, and brought me back into the fold. So I'm not saying this from outside of Slothouse. I'm saying it from within. Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You've come back into the cold of Spies. Do one of.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought that there are two issues at play here. Neither of them are problematic for a Long running successful TV show. That's a good hang. So let's all understand that, okay? But at the end of episode four, when co descends a rickety painter scaffolding causing a Rube Goldberg like hijinks event, when a paint pot. And by the way, everyone's like, oh, in England, they drive on the left and they say flat. The weirdest thing is their devotion to the word pot. Like you can go to Pred and get a protein pot, get a granola pot. Could I have a pot of sauce as opposed to bowl or cup or a side of. So paint pot. I was like, I'm in my bag. I know what they're saying, even though it sounds weird, falls on the fascist head, killing him instantly. And then river and co are like, right, guess we should be going then. Goodness. I was like this. Plus the hoe stuff has pushed the show so far into comic absurdity that it's attempts to create a different feeling of stakesiness or real politic or real life, anything as it did in the actually quite harrowing mass shooting event that opened the season, it rendered that completely moot to me. I thought that was just tonally too far. Which when I went back to this episode, I was like, okay, re scramble my brain. Why do I always want it to be a little bit more than it is? This is a reliable comedy program and when I tuned in last night's episode as a reliable comedy program, I had a fine time. But I want to know where you are with it because every season it teases us with inching a little bit towards the grittier or at least a little bit more lived in plausible espionage show that I think you and I would like. And then it is ultimately quite silly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, we're talking about something that's obviously going to be a very long running experience once it's all said and done. We've got at least seven seats seasons coming. I wouldn't be surprised if they get to 10. You could even make the argument that Will Smith is going to come back and do Secret Hours, which is the 90s Berlin set sort of prequel spin off. There's all sorts of stuff like Gary Oldman loves playing the part. It's a hit. It's doing very well for Apple. I think everybody is like in loose agreement that this show can run for basically as long as it wants. So accepting that and accepting that there are certain pillars of this show that I think they're going to want to keep not only in place but static in their presentation, I. E. I don't think Lamb is going on Ozempic anytime soon. You have to sort of accept, like, what you're saying, those situational comedy tropes that are going to keep characters exactly where they are because the, the jokes and the situ and the, you know, the outcomes are very familiar. That being said, the reason why I reacted so positively towards this season was exactly because of the Rube Goldberg stuff. Because if you were really going to be out there in the world kicking shit over and jumping through windows and chasing people onto trains and all this stuff that happens, I like the idea of, albeit for comic purposes, something that nobody could control happening.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

And the idea of something where this guy dying, which is something I think many people within the show were like, fine with. This mayoral candidate Gimbal, who's running against Nick Muhammad's character, who's a sort of very, very lightly dressed up Sadiq Khan character who's the current London mayor. That character Gimbal, like, is such a buffoon. But it is interesting that he would not die because of an assassination or because slow horses have caught him in an act of espionage, but just over something stupid. And stupid things do happen in the world now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe not as we're seeing it daily.

[Chris Ryan]

Not as much of a Naked Gun esque sight gag as what happened, but I liked the idea that there was still some unpredictability to the show. The whole thing is different. I think I would have been fine, and I generally am with the character arc for him this season had it not been kind of presented as a whole new side of Roddy Ho. It's essentially the same guy in a different room with some different characters.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I think it's too much like, again, if the comp for the show is Frasier, then it seems churlish to complain about how Niles is prissy all the time, no matter where he goes. And the best moments of the show, moments that I was praising effusively in episodes one and two of the season, are just incredibly sharp, rewarding instances of pure situational comedy. The writers, in this case Will Smith, knows these characters so well, you put them in any circumstance and you just let them write themselves almost. They bounce off each other. It's sparkling, it's funny, it's familiar, it's comforting, it's good. I think the sort of shocking thing is. And again, like, it's a comedy and it's broad and it has its own tone and these are things that I celebrate. But like, it is, there's a moment in, I think in this episode where they're like, I don't know, just river is like, well, we're going to be fired from MI5. And I'm like, it's fucking insane that MI5 is paying ho and Ho. Like you're paying these people.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, like.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Ho is acting like someone who's not even on earth. Ho is acting like someone who is beamed in from an episode of Family Guy next to Kristen Scott Thomas. It's just, it's loving his thing so much that I think the larger project starts to wobble. And then similarly, there are just some odd choices that I think maybe they're not odd. I think they're telling us more about the show. You mentioned Nick Muhammad, who is, I think a. He's a comedian, comedic actor. He's on Ted Lasso, I believe he's well known here in Comedy Scene. All due respect to him, he is not a plausible political figure on an hour long television drama. He's just, he's not. He does not have the charisma or.

[Chris Ryan]

The way, if they would call it an hour long television drama.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, sure. So that's telling us something else. And then that's telling us something that doesn't jive with the opening of the season. It just sort of. I think the reason I'm bumping on the season is because it laid down an interesting marker. And one of the things I love about the show, and we've commented on the past, is that every season it tries on a new pair of clothes. And that in and of itself is great. So next season, new book, different vibes, possibly different cast, super into it. Last thing I want to bring up. That is kind of a criticism that I'm curious. Your take on. Gary Oldman's performance of this is timeless. It is a classic television character brought to life by one of the best actors of his generation. I don't have any problems with it.

[Kate Sussman]

No more.

[Andy Greenwald]

In fact, let's lean more into it. I was glad this season at least he actually started using the toilet and then that became a plot point. You know, like, don't tease me. I think the issue that I'm bumping against, and I'm curious how you feel about it, is that this is season five of Jackson Lamb. Not just being flatulent and amusing, being absolutely omniscient and never being flapped and knowing everything that's going on 30 seconds to 30 hours before every single other person on the show.

[Chris Ryan]

He's not omniscient reader, not even narrator. He is the omniscient Reader of this series. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And ultimately five seasons in, I find that limiting. Now, I'm not saying I want a Jackson Lamb trauma arc where we learn what broke him. I don't care. But it would be nice to see him wobble. It would be nice to see him on his back foot once because the story just servicing the actor, eating Jaffa Cakes and doing the job that one of the five eyes nations secret service cannot even be bothered to begin to do properly. This is a cumulative nitpick, but it is a five seasons into it nitpick. And I.

[Chris Ryan]

My favorite moment of this season so far happens in episode three where Oldman gets three minutes to absolutely cook and he does the Berlin anecdote where he seemingly.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah, that was.

[Chris Ryan]

Makes up a story to this about a Stasi. The Stasia in East Germany torturing one of his spies and then torturing that spy's girlfriend in front of him. And the guy, the spy gets the end of this experience and is like, I just. I would have given you the name. I just don't even know it. And there is a moment after this story is, you know, it's. It's used as a signal to the other slow horses of how to get themselves out of this being held captive situation. And it's very ingenious. But Oldman plays that story straight, delivers it in the like, holy shit, this is Gary Oldman way unbelievable. And then he gets outside and Standish is like, that was you, wasn't it? You know, were you the spy in who got tortured? And he was like, I made it up. You. You know, don't be daft. You know, and. But as he turns around and starts walking up the sidewalk, we get one last look at Oldman's facial expression. And there's a suggestion that it might have been real, Right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And that it might have been if it. If he wasn't the one who was tortured. You know, that it was a real.

[Andy Greenwald]

Story.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's so good. And there is obviously this connective tissue between Standish Herold boss, the Jackson Lamb character, character, and River's grandfather David. And it goes back to Berlin and it goes back to a mole hunt and trying to flesh out Charles, who was Standish's boss. And we see flashbacks of that and we see moments of that and especially earlier in the series itself. And I do feel like that stuff is so good. Yeah. That you kind of want just a little bit more. You just want a little bit more. Not necessarily of my trauma arc or black and white flashback, but why Is Lamb so cruel to Standish? Why is Lamb.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

So have such a complicated relationship with river, where he seems so dead set on punishing him, but also acknowledges keeping him close. He keeps him close. And I think that one of the reasons why the show kind of took off immediately for me was its willingness to kill its darlings, you know, quite literally in the first season. And it's not that I just want a higher body count on slow horses, but I do want a higher narrative body count. So I agree with you on that part. The thing I think that this show gets right this season is the compression of both time and space. It is a London thriller. This is taking place over a matter of days. And it really does feel like these people are racing against a clock and paired up in these very interesting ways this season that I think is just so repeatedly entertaining over the course of the series.

[Andy Greenwald]

What is Flight's deputy named Devin Devon. Devin got out to Heathrow pretty fast, and I don't know if she took the Lizzie line or what, but, like, I did bump a little bit on that. Like, this is. This is me watching this show, is us watching Collateral anytime in the last six years, you know, a little bit.

[Chris Ryan]

But, you know, I asked Michael Van about Collateral Traffic, he was like, no, it's possible. I did it LAX. The downtown, 20 minutes, rush hour. Come on.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, they say in the 80s there was less traffic. Not that the movie was set then. Yeah, I think that's well said. And I think I missed some of that flavor from these most recent seasons. I think that for me, in my taste, the River's dad is a supervillain storyline was not the version of a secret history looming over all this that I was interested in so much. I just think there were small things, like James Callis, who plays Claude Whelan, the smarmy first desk is just cooking. He's. He embodies this part. It's a great part. It's been great seeing him do more. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, he's so amazing. So it's really great to see him pop up here.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, right. That's one of your favorite shows, guys. Battlestar. And you don't like soup.

[Zach Balin]

This.

[Andy Greenwald]

These are just the things that you just toss.

[Chris Ryan]

Don't need.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like pennies in a fountain. Yeah, it's the. If I could have soup for every meal, I would. Every day. Okay, like that. And I could have my. My blue lightsaber for Revenge of the Jedi. And I would just be a different. I'd be a happier guy. Anyway, The Claude Thing that I wanted to say is, I know it's just churlish to be like, I wish this, I wish that. But like he was front footed for so much of this week's episode, you know, and sort of like putting himself into the fray. Running terror. Yeah, all of that. That was nice to see. And I just wish it wasn't out of the realm of possibility for the show for him to have a shred of capability, that it wasn't like his involvement in it was the tell that they were just getting cooked, you know. And I just wish the show wasn't so committed to Lamb, good at everything. Wieland bad at everything. Taverner Cross about everything. And like those are the three.

[Chris Ryan]

It's almost more helpful to view this as like an extension of Iannucci than it is an extension of Ler.

[Andy Greenwald]

I totally agree. And so what I'll say in.

[Chris Ryan]

In Veep or in the Thick of It, it's like there's Malcolm who's better at everything than everybody, and then there is a bunch of twits around him and you're like, how is this the British government? But it is, you know, and the same thing for Veep, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

So let me then just extend the Ianucci analogy, the E analogy, just slightly to say that Ianuchi left his own creation, Veep after the first few seasons. And it is one of, if not the only, successful showrunner transitions. You know, whenever this comes up, I say West Wing actually was pretty good when John Welles took over. So there are very few of these now. It is not the same because it is not someone completely different. I don't, I forget the name of the guy who's taking over, but he has worked on the show. I think he probably comes from roughly the same coaching tree. But I'm just gonna, I'm gonna Devil's advocate. I'm a devil's advocate. It maybe it's good to have a different voice in. I know that we're adapting books by MC Heron and so it's not gonna deviate, but maybe new showrunner will have slightly different take on something or a different interest in something and it might just be a different flavoring in the stew for season six. Yeah. Not to change it, but I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't mind.

[Chris Ryan]

It's really interesting that you're having this reaction to this season. I thought I, I mean, I, I know that the Rube Goldberg thing in four is really not your bag or it needs to be a different show for that to be your bag. You know, like that, that idea of like, isn't this, isn't this a bit funny? Let's just trot off now.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just that it's just the same emotional beats for me for them to, to stumble out, not knowing what they're doing, fuck up and then have Gary Oldman be like, you fucking donkeys.

[Chris Ryan]

But I've also been coordinating this so that I protect you the entire time.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just give me a different rhythm.

[Chris Ryan]

Speaking of rhythms, let's talk about the lowdown.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Hell yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Because this is a rhythm that I can dance to that I am pretty locked in. And I think that. So are you're current with this show through last night's episode. One of my favorite shows of the year. And I think is getting to that point where I am thrilled every time I turn it on because I have no idea what I'm gonna get. Even though I know I'm going to get a reliable feeling. So it almost becomes an album by a great. By a band that you've got a long term relationship with and you're just like, I know it's gonna sound awesome and I'm going to like it, but I have no idea where they're going on this one. And so you have an episode like five, I believe it was. I can't remember the name of it. Maybe it was this land or something like that. The Dinklage. Where Dinklage shows.

[Andy Greenwald]

We didn't really talk about that. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And. And just gives a tour de force for like 45 minutes. And then the episode itself ends with the most harrowing, bracing, dangerous, scary possible like scene, which is Lee being led through being arrested, driven out into the middle of nowhere and then led through the world's scariest house party full of cops grilling, shooting guns, setting off bombs. And he's being guided all the way up to this like gazebo area where a shadowy figure is standing watching over all of his Tulsa police officers partying and blowing stuff up. And it turns out to be Donald Washberg, Kyle McLaughlin's character. And Kyle McLaughlin has been playing this character slightly like, you know, like, oh, I'm just a political operator buffoon kind of guy. Love to love to sleep with my brother's wife and just kind of try to make as much money. And he gets this new evil coat of paint at the end of this.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's the devil.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was thrilling to watch that sequence. It's like. And it, it has the energy, if not the like the firepower of the Boogie Nights firework firecracker scene, except this is the rural outdoor version of it.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it's also confirmation of everything Lee fears and thinks, right, that there is a grand conspiracy between the political apparatus and law enforcement, and that this is sort of the manifestation of his nightmares, of his writing, of his work. These people, these guys all out here way too heavily armed, militarized. And it's this just incredible endnote to an episode. And I am here for both sides of Lowdown. I'm here for the J.J. kale shuffling along Tulsa guitar part of it. And I'm here for the operatic peek into the American abyss part.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I gotta say, that's a really hard two step to pull off.

[Chris Ryan]

Hell yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

One of the hardest things about making a mystery television show, he said with some 2020 hindsight, is making every step of the mystery feel urgent and feel like there's a clock and there's a necessity to solve it, or that someone is in danger, or there's a sense of gathering storm clouds while also taking time to digress, taking time to see the sights, taking time to slow down or drive into a cul de sac. I've found the way Sterling Harjo has unspooled that energy this season to be pretty masterful because it snuck up on you. There was this undercurrent of some kind of generic evil of white men in half zips. The card turn of this episode that we're talking about from this week, which is episode six. It's called Old Indian Trick. It's written by Jason Sack, directed by Dennis Goulet, and by the way, I'm sure I'm not the only one of us who noticed that next week's episode is written by Walter fucking Mosley.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't believe it. Then next week is the penultimate episode and then Harjo is back for the finale, sensitive kind, on November 4.

[Andy Greenwald]

The fact that this is, it's to your point, it is a conspiracy theorist discovering that there is a conspiracy, but a conspiracy theorist discovering that there's not a conspiracy. There's like a historical obscenity. The fact that, and you know, I almost don't feel prepared to talk about this specific detail generally culturally, but then also without the full view of the series. But this was the episode when the Indian culture of Oklahoma that was the backbone of reservation dogs, Serlin's previous show bubbled up. Now, it was always there. It's always there. It's who he is, it's what he knows. And it's part of the lifeblood of the Tulsa that He has shown us in everything that he's ever done. So it's not like this was a deviation from that. But this episode put Ethan Hawke as the. What does Keith David call him early on? Like the white boy who has.

[Chris Ryan]

White man who carries Tulsa. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Puts him into the hall, the store, the fucking, you know, centuries of torment and blood and pillage, and he puts him right in the middle of it. And it gives this show a sense of weight that I think people who may have tapped out after. Well, they didn't tap out after Peter Dinklage punched Ethan Hawke and the balls and they wrestled around on a gravestone. But, you know, maybe people who were like, I get that this is a cool hangout show, but I'm necessarily. That's not my space right now. It is a cool hangout show on the surface, like. And then you realize that what they're rolling around in is a graveyard.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You never feel like you're, you're at a lecture. You never feel like you are doing, doing by watching this show. And I love how this series itself is basically following the same ethos is Lee's truth story in journalism where it's digging deeper and scratching and clawing. And now the series. In this most recent episode, an old Indian trick introduces us to what I guess is, I would only imagine is the actual heavy of the show, which is Paul Sparks's pastor Mark, who runs Aryan Nationalist Evangelical church out in the middle of nowhere.

[Andy Greenwald]

But is there some group chat where just people just post name? Because this episode alone, right, has Keith David and Kyle McLaughlin just fucking cooking. And then it also, over the course of these past few, past few episodes, he swaps out Scott Shepard for Paul Sparks. Like he got all those dudes. Yeah, like all the dudes who are the best at being dudes and are actually incredible actors. And like, to work Paul Sparks beating.

[Chris Ryan]

Tracy letts into the middle of nowhere to be greeted by like 15 automatic weapon bearing bikers.

[Andy Greenwald]

And there's something about like, I don't know, I don't feel like I'm alone in saying this, but like there is a, like a palpable energy exchange when you watch actors who just really fucking love acting act. And so I was watching that scene of those two guys and I'm watching it because I'm very much into the show and I really liked the way that. I'm sure this was Sterling and his editors and you know, in, in post, like, chop that scene up. So we have Tracy's character saying, I was threatened. And then you know, we're backfilling that story. We're seeing it after he's already announced it, after he's made it out of there alive. So I'm watching it. I'm hanging on it. But I'm also looking at Paul Sparks being like, I wonder what Paul Sparks said when he came out of his trailer. Was it just. Yeah, I got this. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I think most of these guys seem like they're all. First of all, it's like Tracy Letts, scene partner for most of the last couple of episodes, has been Tom McCarthy. So it's like these guys are just like. It's fucking Tom McCarthy.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

What?

[Chris Ryan]

And they're just like, I can do this. And then I think that there must be something where, like, when a white man of a certain age tucks his cowboy shirt into Levi's or Wranglers and puts that belt on, he's like, I know how to walk. I know how to talk. I do. Know what I mean? Because, like, Paul Sparks is just, like, leading Kyle McLaughlin up to that ridge and telling him this biblical story, but also a historical story about Oklahoma Land Rush. And it's just so good, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's not. I was talking to a writer here last night about this. That, like, the really, really good showrunners, writer, directors, whatever. It's not just about casting. It's about knowing and loving the actors you're casting so that you just. It's like being a coach or a manager, right? You put them in the position to succeed. You put them in the best possible light so they will show out on game day. And, like, this is just a murderer's Murderer's row. And that's not even mentioning that we may have just also been gifted the actor Graham Greene's last appearance.

[Zach Balin]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

He passed away earlier this year. This episode was dedicated to him. He is playing the street artist's grandfather who developed a relationship with Dale Washburn. Dale Washberg. And the character is not well. And we have no. I don't know what Grant Green's health was, but he is very compelling in this part because he brings his gravitas and his humor, much like he did in Reservation Dogs. And you're like, I don't know. I don't know why. I'm extremely sentimental in a weird way about the show because I'm like, it just must have been a sick day on set because Hawk loves this shit. Graham Greene knows how to do this shit. It's cool to watch.

[Chris Ryan]

And I asked Sterling, at the event that we did a few Weeks ago about the challenges of going from something that I think he probably really had his arms wrapped around, which was reservation dogs, to doing something where it's like, okay, man. Now, like, we all love mysteries. We all fancy ourselves like sleuths and crime raters in the making. But I've tried, like, I've tried to think through stories like, that's fucking hard, bro. Like, to be like, here is a three level conspiracy. Here's 12 characters. Here's what they're saying to each other at any given point, and most importantly is here's how you move the story along in a way that makes sense to the audience but remains compelling and mysterious enough that they're like, I haven't quite figured this out yet. And, you know, there's a lot of scenes of people driving and doing expository dialogue, but when you do it with the level of, I don't know, vulnerability and presence and. And versatility, but also just like, care and love that they're doing it.

[Andy Greenwald]

And curiosity too, I think.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. If Keith David and Kyle McLaughlin want to sit in a Kia and tell me what I just watched a scene ago, because they have to also explain. I'm like, I don't give a shit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't give a shit. Kyle McLaughlin be like, that's why you get a broker, because you don't have to deal with crazy guys like this.

[Andy Greenwald]

He is great on the show and as a longtime Kyle fan, like, seeing him just get to play the heavy. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

When Keith Davis was like, what did he do to you? Like, what's. What did this guy. He's like, he's prying, but also he.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's playing a heavy without quotes around it. You know what I mean? He's not like camping it up. He's not like winking.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you ask Sterling about his decision, his, some would say radical decision to cast himself as guy sitting on a picnic table outside.

[Chris Ryan]

I had not seen that episode when we did the interview, so I had no idea. But yeah. Nice jacket. It was a cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's also not him. I want to get to the bottom of that. Maybe we'll talk to him at the end of the season. Which is like, I get showrunners who don't do cameos. I get showrunners who do cameos. I feel like when our friend Sam Esmail cameoed in the last season of Mr. Robot, I think he said the show's catchphrase or something. He was interrogating Elliot. He was like, I am the creator. Thus I will manipulate the. But Sterling was just like, I'm the guy next to the guy who says something in one of the episodes. I want to know more about that decision.

[Chris Ryan]

I just feel like it's like it has that linklater feel of like, everything in Tulsa is, like, alive. And there's 10 different movies and TV shows at once. And that's just a scene from a different one. You know, I really love that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, Tio Horn, who played the deer lady in Reservation Dogs, she plays Samantha, which is. Who's Ray's. I'm sorry, Lee's ex. She's great on the show. Yeah, she's great on the show. And again, it's a tribute, I think, to the vibe that Sterling creates. But also probably, I'd like to think whatever Ethan does on set, that he's like, okay, it's another day, new dance partner. Let's go. Every one of these scenes he does with people, whether it was Gene Tripplehorn in that great episode a couple weeks ago, or whether it was Dinklage last week or whether it was her this week or Graham Green this week, like, you never get the sense that the other actors or Sienna, Easter, Deirdre, who's.

[Chris Ryan]

Really from the bookstore, you never get.

[Andy Greenwald]

The sense that they. Or Ryan, Kira Armstrong, who plays Francis's daughter, you never get the sense that they are, just for the purposes of the scene, they are satellites orbiting around the sun. The star of the show. Like, it's like, okay, here we go. It's another two hander. Another two hander. Another two handers. What are they bringing to this? What is the dance? I'm just. It's exciting when there's a new episode to watch.

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[Andy Greenwald]

It's always terrible.

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[Chris Ryan]

Let's hit Chair company. I kind of want to lay out for you here because I am the on the receiving end of a lot of very intense texts about Tim Robinson.

[Andy Greenwald]

From you where you're just like, for me. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, this rips. This is so. This is so genius. This is so funny. And I get it. And I do think he's funny. I will say there is nothing funnier in the world to me right now than watching Tim Robinson and Connor o' Malley do anything together.

[Andy Greenwald]

So have you watched the full 13 minute yes cut multiple times on the set of Friendship.

[Chris Ryan]

In fact, it's starting to approach. It's not quite fill it in the plums. It's close, but it's getting there. Him being like, give me a reason to call my lawyer, yo.

[Andy Greenwald]

When he says he got the hat at the Vietnam wars. The Vietnam War store.

[Chris Ryan]

Because he's a fan. He's just a fan. All right, so Chair company which I will describe for people. I mean, obviously most people listening to this have probably watched some amount of. I think you should Leave or familiar with Tim Robinson's comedy at this point. He did Detroiters. He's done a couple of seasons of I think you should leave on Netflix and now is doing this show, Chair Company on hbo. He also made a film called Friendship that came out earlier this year with Paul Rudd. I think Friendship is a very useful movie to watch in relationship to Chair Company.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just worth watching in general.

[Chris Ryan]

There are some ideas that also comes from a similar creative axis where it's Andrew DeYoung who directed Friendship, directed the first at least episode or first two of Chair Company. I think first, definitely. And then Zach Canaan, who first two. Zach Canaan, who's frequently collaborated with Tim Robinson in the script writing part, created this show with Tim Robinson. I will describe this show as the Parallax View meets the Office.

[Andy Greenwald]

Good job. Good job by you.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a 70s conspiracy thriller about nothing about a guy who works in an office. But I have been kind of surprised that yes, every time, every episode I laugh really hard, like three times. Usually it's just like a facial expression he makes or the way that they will tease out a joke for five extra seconds like Jamie screaming in the intersection in her car in this show. But tell me what it is about Robinson that you think you're reacting to because I don't think of you as cringe comedy, bro.

[Andy Greenwald]

I, I, I don't think of it as cringe comedy. So there's a couple things. Like one, I love this show and full disclosure, very unlike me. I was so excited to watch the show. I watched a bunch of them Ice Slow Horses. Is it? I watched a couple of them a couple weeks ago before I left for London. So I certainly have seen the two episodes that have aired. I did not watch them this week. I love the show. I love Detroiters. I love, I think you should leave. I loved Friendship. I think that he is the patron saint of a certain type of 2000-20s American masculinity. I think that there is a, a frustration and a desire for exceptionalism and specialness that just seethes from that swollen vein in his neck and that everything he does like, like Will ferrell or Danny McBride in their peaks, and you could argue they're still in their peaks. I just find everything he does funny. It is. What I also find interesting is that every one of those people, every one of those two other guys that I mentioned similarly have had a character that they play and they have attempted over projects and time to stretch that character.

[Chris Ryan]

The American asshole.

[Andy Greenwald]

Exactly. See how Malleable that character is.

[Chris Ryan]

And Tim is the Upper Peninsula version of this guy. Yeah, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's not mean spirited either. So when you say it's cringe, I mean, there's awkwardness, but, like, no. There's a weird sweetness sometimes to it as well. A friendship had some darker overtones, which were fun and welcome, but like Detroiters, the way he and Sam Richardson interact with each other and their business and the city is actually kind of sweet, even if it is also idiotic at times. But I think that the way that he's stretching the character and the curiosity with which he's stretching the possibilities and the horizons for the character, I find just very fascinating and compelling on an artistic level because he's like, okay, it works in sketch comedy. Does it work in a movie? Yes and no. Does it work in a half hour conspiracy thriller? Which is not a question I would have asked, and I certainly wouldn't have expected the answer to be a definitive yes. I loved this instantly, and I could feel it in my bones. He's playing the same guy, but. And is it Kate Mara or is it Lake Bell playing his wife? That's out of his league. Sure. Okay, I get it. It's just, you know, it's slightly different, but kind of the same. There is something. Here's what I wanted to say about it. When I watched one battle after another, I was like, I bet PTA loves Tim Robinson. Because there is a real commonality, I think, in the almost aggressive absurdity of their humor and of their feelings about the role anger plays in American society. And I think that they are related as a project, like both of what they're doing right now. And there are elements of one battle after another, at least tonally. I'm not saying they're both masterpieces or whatever, but tonally, there's something that is similar to me. Christmas Adventurers is. I think you should leave.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Christmas Adventures in the service of a Thomas Pynchon adaptation that's also about the rise of fascism and being a girl. Dad, maybe that's not. Maybe Tim's not there yet. You know what I mean? But there is something. Something that is similar and I'm just really excited to see where it goes, because as you said, the baseline is, this is going to be really fucking funny.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. The moment that the show really, like, kind of left Earth for me was when Ron Trosper, the character that Tim is playing, Tim Robinson is playing, has finally hunted down Mike Santini, the guy who he seemed to think was hired by Teca chairs to warn him off of going too far down the rabbit hole. And, like, you know, he confronts Mike Santini, who fakes.

[Andy Greenwald]

We didn't even say this. He's seeking justice because he had an embarrassing thing happen to him at work.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I guess we should have set the show itself up. Yeah. So it's basically a guy who's working at a mall. Shopping mall design firm. He seems to be some sort of project manager or something. He gets a big opportunity to oversee the opening of a new shopping mall, even though nobody goes to shopping malls anymore. He gives this big presentation, and as he's going to sit down after giving his speech in front of Lou Diamond Phillips and everyone else, sits down in this chair, the chair collapses, thus setting off a chain of events where he is pursuing the corporate ownership, the ultimate responsibility. He wants to find out who did this to him at the biggest moment of his life. So he starts emailing, calling. One night, he is mysteriously attacked in the parking lot of his business by a not very intimidating Italian man named Mike Santini. He turns out to just be kind of a ne' er do well private investigator who has been hired by an unknown third party. But when they're having this confrontation, this guy, this older man, Mike Santini, throws boxes of trash at him, and Jim Robinson is like, these are my work clothes. And then starts screaming about how, like, there's something going on that could hurt a lot of people, and I'm the only one who knows about it. And it is kind of like, okay, well, this is. This is pretty much the 2020s completely summed up. Yes, it is going nice. While someone throws garbage at you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, you're just trying to get to your day job where they will maybe have cookies at break time. Yeah, yeah, that's what we're. That's where we're at. I also, like, perversely, as a. You know, we are commentators on not just the shows, but on the larger industry. Like, I would. I would pay money. I would subscribe to a 19th streaming service if it could offer me in split screen the pitch for this show. And the pitch for, I don't know, like, Silo. Like, the pitch for this show is Tim Robinson being like, I sit on a chair, it breaks. What the fuck happens next? And then Casey and everyone and Amy and Franny at HBO are like, here's a bag of money, like a fucking Scrooge McDuck comic. Whereas with Silo, it's just like, okay, so there's this guy, but he lives underground. But Rebecca Ferguson, you know, she's like, she's working years. I saw like years ago, but I remember it was like the most. All I remember is the most like far fetched aspect of it was that like David Oyowolo and Rashida, Rashida Jones were like deeply in love. Is that right? I found that very, very. But Rebecca Ferguson was just like maintenance.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then she came to the fore when it came out why they were really in the Silo. You know what we should do? I think this would be. I don't know if this would be a releasable episode, but I do think I would enjoy it is that if we had one episode where we let. I don't know who among the ringer family, extended family of artists keep up on this stuff, but like someone comes in and just talks at us and tells us about seasons two through five of foundation and then they cycle out and someone comes in and tells us about season two, three and four of Silo.

[Chris Ryan]

Do we talk or is this just a recap pod that we're present?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it would be compelling if we're just like we need you to.

[Kate Sussman]

You guys, I've seen season three of Silo talking.

[Andy Greenwald]

Kaya, you've been here the whole time. I can't tell.

[Chris Ryan]

This pod cannot be a Tim Robinson show where it's just you and I listening. Then we kind of obviate the need for us.

[Zach Balin]

Kya.

[Andy Greenwald]

What? What's up with the Silo? No spoilers. Are they still in the Silo?

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

No.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you want me to tell you.

[Chris Ryan]

What'S up with the Silo but not spoil it for you off air?

[Andy Greenwald]

I 100% do. I guess I just want you to in a non spoilery way. Just vibe check on Silo season three. Like, what are our hopes and dreams?

[Kate Sussman]

I'll tell you this, there's not just one Silo.

[Chris Ryan]

What the fuck? I knew that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did they rename the show Silos? No. These ideas are free.

[Chris Ryan]

Greenwald, it's been great seeing you, man. Let's get into my interview with Zach Balin and Kate Sussman. They are the creators and writers of Black Rabbit. Black Rabbit premiered on Netflix a couple weeks ago, stars Jude Law, Jason Bateman as brothers involved in basically the explosion of their own lives as they try to run a restaurant in New York City. It features some great performances. I thought it was incredibly dark and compelling in that Ozark way and utterly watchable. Zach and Kate were really awesome. We talked a lot about the writing of the show, working with Jason Bateman and Jude Law on these characters, and also just the restaurant scene, New York City, and what. How that inspired the show and how it plays such an amazing role in the show itself. So let's get into my interview with Zach and Kate. Andy, I'll talk to you on Monday, buddy. Zach and Kate, thank you so much for joining me.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah, thanks for having us.

[Chris Ryan]

This is kind of how I would like to be doing Netflix shows, which is, like, a couple weeks after they come out, you know, and people get to, like, watch them a little bit. It's always frustrating when it's like, Black Rabbit comes out. And then the first piece on Vulture is explaining that crazy Black Rabbit ending. I'm like, guys, it's one hour. Like, I'm even alive here. I want to talk to you first about the tone of the show, because despite I wrote down some of this gun violence, robbery, dismemberment, drug abuse, sexual violence, financial skullduggery, and suicide, I find this show to be, like, one of the most fun shows I've watched this year. And how do you guys, when you're writing this balance, like, for the lack of a better term entertainment value, but just like, this, like, almost compulsive watchability of the show with all the heavy material that's within it.

[Zach Balin]

We started first with, like, those two guys, you know, and that. That relationship of what Jake and Vince or Jason and Jude were going to go through and what that arc was going to be was, like, very cemented from the conception of the show, I think. And so I think that we wanted to try and see if we could make this sort of operatic family story. But then also we talked a lot about things like Uncut Gems or State of Grace or Before the Devil Knows yous Dead was a huge reference for the show. And just, like, could you tell a really emotional story like that, but then also, just, like, keep your foot on the gas of the kind of knives that are getting thrown at the guys the whole time. And so in the writers room, I know that was, like, a constant challenge that we were talking to everyone about sort of just how can we maintain the balance of the emotion and groundedness of that relationship while at the same time trying to just, like, get a sense of inescapable, both propulsion and, like, trauma for these guys.

[Kate Sussman]

And we weren't trying, like, just hearing all those things. I was like, God, this sounds terrible.

[Chris Ryan]

So it wasn't restaurants. You know, there's love.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah.

[Kate Sussman]

There's tenderness.

[Chris Ryan]

Parenthood.

[Kate Sussman]

No, I think we didn't set out to, like, want to see or make anything really violent. And I think wanted something that felt very grounded but also kind of imperative. Like, what are real world stakes? It could feel dangerous enough, but like in, you know, the realm of possibility. We talk so much about Michael Clayton, which, you know, in that movie, Michael Clayton owes $70,000 and like that's a real number that you can like. So we kind of started with that premise. Like, you know, how much does a restaurant make every night? And so what would be a reach for Jake to have to make? How much could, you know, Vince's character have lost in a bet? Like really sort of making. Making sure it seemed believable, but also heightened just enough that, you know, kind of chaos ensues from what's. What they've done.

[Chris Ryan]

It's got like the. I, you know, it's got basically the narrative rhythm of what addiction kind of feels like where you're like, I'm always just about to get my head above water and then I get swamped again. Like that kind of feeling, especially for the Vince character where he's just like always like salvation or getting out of it is right there. And he can't help but either his past comes back to get him or he does something that swamps him like that. It's very, very perceptible to hear the actual numbers. And that that was something you guys were thinking about is really interesting.

[Zach Balin]

Well, we talked a lot about like when we were finding Jude's apartment in the show was a build, but it's a replication of an actual apartment that we in our location, this guy Paul Escananzi, who was a successions location guy, was amazing who found in soho tribeca area. And then we were like, okay, what does this place actually cost? How could someone like Jake potentially afford it? What would that rent mean for his earnings at the restaurant? We got really deep and tried to really be quite accurate about just the financial like challenges and hurdles of living in New York and trying to put on the kind of face that he is putting on. And so I remember early on we were like, I had written in that Jude was gonna drive this like, like a 86 beat up Targa or something. And we spent a lot of time. We're like, that car is actually like even a shitty one. You know, that's like a. Like you're gonna spend 60,000 bucks on that car. And we're just like, this guy can't afford that, right? And that Jaguar that he drives, it like, it looks great, but that's a $6,000 car.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. He stays fixed up or whatever.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah, yeah. So it's like, I think we wanted to sort of make sure that we felt like all that stuff was both plausible and that you had this sense of reaching for something that was unattainable, but that these guys could at least manifest some of it.

[Kate Sussman]

And that idea, like, you lived in New York. I wonder if you felt like this. We were. We, like, started out our career there, so we were always like, how much does that guy's apartment cost? And, like, how does this person always have a new outfit? And, like, really being like, super interested in, like, the face that people were showing? And, like, what's the, you know, like, Anna the bartender? Like, what's her, like, apartment look like compared to Mel the hostess whose, like, parents support her? And just, like, kind of thinking about, who are these different people in the city who, you know, like, where do they live? How do they present themselves? Because we had been totally obsessed with, you know, with that idea.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I remember my job, like, when I moved there. I was working at Kim's on St. Mark's yeah. And we would get paid. I mean, sorry, Mr. Kim, if I'm revealing your financial secrets. I don't think so. But, like, it was. We would get paid minimum wage and a check, and then we would get paid cash under the table for the additional amount that we were owed. But, like, on Fridays, you were like, I have some money in my pocket. You know, like, the idea of. And I'm sure that's the same thing for the restaurant business, where it's like, I'm cash rich tonight, you know, and, like, so that I can have a different kind of New York experience for 48 hours. Now, that might not mean I can get a better apartment or get a better, you know, car or something like that, but I can go out, you know, and I can have a good time tonight.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah. And I think what you're talking about that, like, sort of edge with addiction and with Vince, I think that he's someone who is constantly, like, you know, on the edge of winning. And it's either he's always blaming other people for the mistakes that he makes or the situation that he's in. I mean, when he. In that first scene in Reno where he runs a guy over, he takes the guy's keys and he's like, this is your fault. And then later his father says that same thing. But there's, like. I think we talked a lot about. With Jason. Is this guy someone who is self sabotaging all the time? And doesn't actually feel like he is entitled to any sort of success. And so anytime he gets close, is he like. Is he the like the atom bomb of himself? And I don't know. I mean, I think a lot of people are sort of right on that edge of like. Sure, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

In terms of like you mentioned the sort of having that uncut gems, devil knows you're dead feel to it. How hard is that to pace? How hard is that to stretch out over the course of eight hours and probably more and then figure out like, here are the beats that we have to have like a breath. Here's where we really want to ramp it up in like the last act of an episode and going into the first act of another. And you have these flashback scenes that I think are really effective and really kind of deepen your relationship to the character. Where sometimes flashbacks can be like, okay, but like this is like you're really seeing these pivotal, amazing moments in these guys life together. And was. Those were really rich. So how do you guys go about constructing any given episode? I mean, I could grab one at random. Like one of the. The Laura Linney block in the middle was actually my favorite part of the season, I think. Just also because like that's where you're kind of like midair with the characters and really like anything could happen. So just tell me a little bit about putting together an episode in terms of pace and tempo and kind of like what you're going to do to a viewer.

[Kate Sussman]

Maybe I'll talk broad strokes and you can talk more specifically. But we always knew like, you know, uncut Gems was this big like inspiration for us. But you know, we knew you couldn't have eight hours of that experience. Cause there'd just be too much to kind of withstand and kind of too much.

[Zach Balin]

You felt like you were like locked in that. In that vestibule for eight hours.

[Kate Sussman]

You're turning that off after like. So we knew we kind of wanted to build up, you know, that idea of the robbery and that being like the first episode of the show and something that we're building up to. We knew that we wanted to climb up to that point and kind of earn the buy in for the characters and establish this relationship. And then we kind of knew that we wanted the final two episodes to be just an all out, like kind of chase movie. And we knew that those were gonna be like the most intense and like where the wheels have fully come off. So we started to think about like, you know, if that's like the third act or like the adventure, the like stomach churning part of the show. How are we gonna construct the six episodes that lead up to that? That both hopefully tell the audience that we're getting towards that, that it's gonna start like the wheels are gonna come off bit by bit by bit across every show. But then how do you still keep. You know, you gotta. When one episode ends, there has to be a reason to like stick around for the final episode. So we worked really hard to. And like you were saying, Laura, with each of the directors had such a different take on it. But I think Laura's block is really interesting because like you said, that's where we get to know the characters and like see them come into their ways a little bit. But had to like work hard to still make, you know, the stakes have to like keep growing and growing and growing. And I think we just kept like focused on building, earning like stress and interest enough up to six, knowing that after that it was going to be kind of.

[Zach Balin]

I mean, I think that we looked at it in a couple different ways. I mean, we were, you know, like that block you're talking about in particular, I think that is a block where if you've come into the first act of the show and you. And at least that Vince's character on the surface is the sort of chaos engine of it. But then in three and four, we begin to understand that Jake has made a lot of.

[Chris Ryan]

It's just as underwater.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah. And the difference between them is that Vince wears his fuck ups on his sleeve and he owns them. And Jake is always putting this mask on. And so for an emotional sort of character reveal, 3 and 4 were really kind of about understanding that part of Jake having that. What's that like for Jake when that gets exposed? And so we knew that there was gonna be like that would be sort of the emotional turmoil of those episodes. And I mean, I think that honestly it was something that we were trying to. The pace and all that stuff was things we were trying to figure out the whole time. And Jason had a huge hand in sort of how the tension would continue to be wrapping up throughout the edit. Jason was very hands on. But I mean, things like those flashbacks were things that we had always talked about in the writers room, but weren't even scenes. And when we got to. When we were in production, we were constantly writing and evolving things and we knew what the end was, we knew the form of it all. But we worked really closely with Justin Kurzel, who directed the last two episodes. And we had Done the order with. And he's just this incredibly collaborative. I remember there's this one scene. Sorry, this is going well off. No, but in episode seven, things have all sort of fallen apart. And Jude's character, Jake, has this really frantic phone call with Vince after the robbery. And we were shooting that. It was late at night. We were underneath the Brooklyn Bridge under there. And Jude's just, like, pouring his heart out. I mean, that guy will just, like, he gives everything. And he's been doing it for, like, an hour. And then Justin goes up to him on take, and he's like, mate, why don't you, after you're done this one, take your shoes off and just throw in the traffic. And Jude just looks at him. He's like, all right, cool, let's do it. And it was this amazing. Like, it didn't end up in the show, but I think the whole production sort of had this feeling of, like, if someone has a good idea, let's just run with it and let's try and see if you can, you know, if it's additive. And so even those flashbacks, those are things that Cade and I wrote, like, pretty late in the production. And we came to, like, the idea that the band came from this Playboy magazine. And that was like. You know, that was something that we had sort of were kicking around. And we were like, how can we get this in the show, in the series? And we had gone to Erica Kay, who was our line producer, was, like, asking us, where's the name come from? And we sort of told her this story, and we're like, oh, what if. Do you think we could build the kid's bedroom from, you know, do you think we could have, like, Vince watching Robin Bird play it at night? And it was just. It was a constantly sort of, like, additive process, which was really exciting, which you can't really. In a movie, you can't really get a chance to do.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I like the flashbacks also give the Vince character this different shade because that's a point in his life where he still has a little bit more confidence and a little bit more. Maybe his. Like, it's starting to fall apart. But I. I was rewatching the scene where Jake buys him out, and that's a really good example of what I wanted. One of the things I wanted to ask you is, like, what's on the page versus what happens once Bateman or Law get involved, where the gesture he makes or, like, the. The line he has when the lawyer comes in with the papers and he's like, and how did I fucking know you were gonna be here? You know what? Or I'm not surprised you're here. And I'm like, wow, it's such a Jason Bateman line delivery. But also, this is still a guy who thinks he's got control because he's just like, I founded this place. Like, he's still kind of holding on to these semblances of ideas about himself. So the flashbacks wind up being really, really effective in that way.

[Kate Sussman]

Yeah. We are so interested in the. We both have siblings and that dynamic that you kind of establish a relationship with your sibling or. And a lot of people, we know that you can't break even as you grow older and grow into your different careers and life and stuff. So this reverence that Jake has for Vince, he's probably had it since they're 8 years old, and he can't shake it. Whatever Vince does, Jake, he's the cool one. He's cool. And Jake, even when other people are like, what are you still doing with this loser? This guy is bringing you down. He's an anchor. Jake just has so much. He holds him with so much reverence. So in that scene, Jake's heart is breaking to do this to his brother. And his brother is kind of like, come on, man, this is my place. You couldn't throw me out. And then you see that he can. And I think in terms of both Jason and Jude brought so much to their characters and took them.

[Zach Balin]

They're so fast, both of them. On the day we had written, Vince.

[Kate Sussman]

Was on the page. At first, Vince was a little bit more, like.

[Zach Balin]

Depressed.

[Kate Sussman]

Not pathetic, but, yeah, like, low. Like, really depressed. And, like, I remember there was, like, a few scenes that he cried, you know, that we had him, like, you know, come and clean about stuff. And Jason was like, nah, this guy doesn't cry. Yeah.

[Zach Balin]

And so we saw. You know, the first day that we shot was the day of Vince's opening in Reno in the parking lot. And, like, Jason brought such a, like, indignant attitude to that scene. And we're like, okay, this is actually more interesting in a way that this guy who has, like, I can't believe.

[Chris Ryan]

I have to ask for a Coke here or whatever, like, he's getting it like that.

[Kate Sussman]

Or like, that guy puts a gun to his head, and you're immediately like, oh, this guy's had a gun to his head before and he's not scared.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a Wednesday.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah. And so. And then we really. Then we did a lot of rewriting as we Saw kind of how particularly Jason was embodying him. And I think, like, that scene in particular, that. That was written by Andrew, who's this amazing writer who was with us. And I know. I mean, I remember that line that he's like. I can't think of it exactly, but where he, like, basically is like. You know, he's like, what happened to your finger?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Zach Balin]

And like, Andrew wrote that, but then Jason could just has this ability to sort of jump in and add a little something on top of it that makes it either incredibly disarming or incredibly insulting. I mean, in that scene, I know it's not scripted. When he yells at Jude and he's like, hey, on the day in the room, that was like. It was frightening. Yeah.

[Kate Sussman]

Everyone was like.

[Zach Balin]

And so I think that there was a lot of flexibility on set of, like, we want this thing to feel natural. And I think there's a lot of times where one, as a writer, like, you put something down and you're like. You get really beholden to her. Well, that's what I was gonna ask about to a. Or phrasing. And this happened to me, like, early on in my career, like when we did King. When I was working on King Richard. Like, I had written that script, and I was like, I love. No line in this thing can change. And then I got on set.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm William Goldman. Step off.

[Zach Balin]

And then I got on set, and I was like, you know. You know, I got really lucky. And I was very, very good friends with Ray, the director. And so. And we were. And we were constantly rewriting on set and, like. And. And Will is, like, quite a talented improv. And you're like, if you want the thing to feel like real life and not a movie, then I think you have to be available to see where it's going and to allow an actor to have some flexibility. Unless you're like. I mean, I think there are amazing writers who probably can put it on the page. But I feel like that the actors who we've had the best experiences with, like Jon Bernthal, Will Jude, who we've worked with a couple times, Jason, like, you know, they add a lot. And if you're available to be there with them and be like, okay, how can this be better? How can this be more naturalistic? Can you say it with less?

[Kate Sussman]

And also, when you realize pretty quickly that there. You know, obviously all of your scenes have an intention or there's a point to every scene. And so as long as you. As soon as you start seeing people do it and they're changing stuff, but are adhering to what's the point of the scene or what's the change that's gonna happen in the scene. What's the fuck up that you're setting up now? As long as you're like, this person still gets that that's the intention of the scene, that they're still gonna hit that, then we can have fun with everything else. As long as this one point or this one idea is gonna get across, let's do it in any way that feels natural. And once we started seeing Jude and Jason, obviously they're so smart about storytelling and that you're like, okay, so you know what we're supposed to do here. So if these lines don't totally match up with what we said, that's great.

[Chris Ryan]

I think people generally, when they hear about even just the word might not be appropriate for this, but the idea of improv, they think of Will Ferrell movies and they think of Judd apatow or Adam McKay yelling alt lines from behind the camera. And it's just like, we're just trying to find the funniest thing. But what you're. Makes a lot of sense that this. This show feels so alive from one character down to the 14th character, which is another thing I want to ask about. But, like, it. You can tell, like, there was still the sort of connective tissue between original intent, screenwriting, and maybe these people being like, these are nightlife guys. Like, these guys are talking for a living and, like, making deals and trying to get out of trouble. So, like, it's got to feel like.

[Zach Balin]

Kind of as it goes forward, like, Kate was saying a lot of things, wanted to dismantle. So that by 5 and 6, the camera begins to move in a different way than it was early on. And by the time you get to Justin's episodes in seven's eight, then it's like, it's handheld and we're on the street, and there's very minimal lighting. Sam's, like, behind the action and trying to catch up. I mean, Justin was like, to the frustration of our experience, of our, like, operators sometimes would be like, you know.

[Kate Sussman]

Point the camera over there.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Zach Balin]

He'd be like, start looking this way. And Ari would be like, what's the blocking? He's like, you don't get to see the blocking. You know?

[Chris Ryan]

Who's Ari?

[Zach Balin]

Ari was one of our amazing camera guy that sucks. And I remember the first day with him. We were in the. Like, in a subway in New York, which is always just a Dream, like, we're gonna get to shoot in a subway. And we were like. It was just, like, a simple thing of, like, Jason running in there. And. Yeah, it was so funny.

[Chris Ryan]

Justin's like, we're gonna go over to Zubway. You look over there, and he's like.

[Zach Balin]

Actually, the first time that he was shooting, we were on, like, is this the subway towards.

[Chris Ryan]

In the last time, the last phone call he makes in the subway.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Zach Balin]

And before that, we actually. We were like, on Essex street, which is where we shot, where Anna has her scene with Roxy on the bench. And we come back to that at the end of the show, and, like, Justin's first thing, like, these guys were, like, wheeling out this huge light, and he. He's like this kind of big, imposing Australian guy, and he's like, put that shit away. And immediately everyone's like, okay, this is going to be a different. This is going to be a different block.

[Chris Ryan]

Does that allow you to be a little bit more run and gun when you're out in New York City? Like, what was the sort of challenges of. Because, you know, like, it's. It's been a minute since there's been such an authentically New York show like this that also isn't, you know, I mean, SVU aside and the great Law and Order is aside, but, like, it just. Just, like, you're going into every nook and cranny and. And shooting in these extraordinary places. I imagine it's helpful to actually not have a ton of stuff that you're bringing with you.

[Kate Sussman]

We got, like, really lucky. I mean, we. There was never a world in which we didn't. This show wasn't going to shoot in New York. It's, like, so much about the city and, you know, our experience there and, like, the. The rich tapestry of New York City. But I think we got lucky that Our Black Rabbit was one of the earliest shows to come back up after the writers strike and the SAG strike. So I think not only did we get an incredible crew because a lot of people had been, you know, weren't working, and we kind of got our pick of department heads and everything, but I think the city really opened itself, was glad to have production happening again. I will say, like, to the credit of Erica, our line producer and our locations manager, like, we heard no, like, zero times. Like, we want to shoot on the Brooklyn bridge. Like, sure, 10th street best. Sure. Like, all these places that were kind of like, bucket list places we had been and hung out. We were like, we want to shoot there. And we never really heard. No, which was incredible. And then.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that on the. When in one of the Laura Linney episodes, there's the zoom out and Bateman's on the phone. Is that against the. Is that against, like, Peter Cooper? But it's on the east river or something. Like, he's in, like, a kind of walking.

[Zach Balin]

That's episode five over the fdr.

[Kate Sussman]

Yeah.

[Zach Balin]

So that's like. Yeah, that's, like, on. I think it's on 6th street going across the FDR to, like, where those tennis clothes.

[Chris Ryan]

I was like, this is incredible.

[Kate Sussman]

It was so funny. We were supposed to get coverage of that shot and Ben Siminoff, that was his episode, and he, like, shot that whole thing. And he was like, well, let's not.

[Zach Balin]

We don't have to cover this. This is great.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Kate Sussman]

Looks amazing.

[Zach Balin]

But, I mean, that was. But I think sometimes it seems very simple and it's one shot, but that took a tremendous amount of infrastructure. But then there are things and things like getting to shoot at the pool room. Those were enormous logistical operations. But then some of the stuff, like, at the end, there's a lot of driving things in New York, which is very challenging to do, especially on a tv. I can't even imagine, like, you know, driving across the Brooklyn Bridge or Jake's sort of race out to Coney island, which, in some ways, we just kind of times just put a camera in the back of a car and had it with Jason and Jude in there. And we got, like, one take and the car broke down. And so in some ways, there was a very independent spirit of making this show. And then in other times, Netflix was, honestly, incredibly terrific. And we just, like, you know, we built that entire restaurant on a stage and it was, like, down. It was so meticulous. And, you know, I don't think the resources that we were given to do some of that stuff were spent there. And then it allowed us to, like, you know, a lot of the stuff at the end where Jason is in the Diamond District. Like, we shot all that stuff in, like, a day, which was moving incredibly quickly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Zach Balin]

For how complicated some of that stuff was.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. You mentioned the restaurant, so I want to ask. Was there. I think. I think I. If I remember reading, it was, like, 2022, when you guys were, like, sold this or, like, were like.

[Zach Balin]

Basically, it was right before the writers strikes.

[Chris Ryan]

I remember that was.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then. Can you think of, like, this is probably too convenient, but was there, like, a night or a day after and you were like, you know what? Would make an interesting story, if not a feature or series is something about the place we were last night or something about this. Like, was there like a kind of inciting tunnel?

[Zach Balin]

Yeah, I would say there were two. I'll talk about one. You can talk about the other. But there was a restaurant in Williamsburg called the Dressler, which was the first. I believe it was the first Michelin star restaurant in Williamsburg. And to us, like, that we had moved to Brooklyn at that point, and that restaurant was sort of like a pillar of that community in that it had sort of taken what was this artistic neighborhood. And I think in some ways, like, was part of the group that sort of said, this is like a serious place in a way. And then that restaurant had a really tragic fall. And the guy who created that restaurant got embroiled in debt and ended up committing suicide. And so there were a handful of articles that had been written in the aftermath of that. Like, what happened was this. Did this. In some ways, did this dream or did this neighborhood almost that they were a big part of creating, like, cannibalize itself. And so that was something that was in. We had been wrestling with that for a long time. And there's something really interesting here about the places that we lived and about the kind of ambition that I think New York can instill in people and then also can sort of topple them. And that was a big part of it.

[Kate Sussman]

And then I lived across the street from the Spud Pig in the West Village and was there when it opened. And that place had, like, a huge. Figured pretty large and like, my kind of idea of what New York was about this cool downtown hang. And it was not like banker bros. It was already downtown types. And so we spent a lot of time there. We didn't have a ton of money, but when we could, we'd get drinks there and have meals and sometimes get lucky enough to get up to the third floor, but. And a handful of other places like that Beatrice Inn and, you know, like Odeon or, you know, the number of places, Mineta Tavern, places that we went. And we were just really, like, kind of captivated by how sexy and alluring and cool, like, what we imagined was going on there. But then when, you know, the Spotted Pig had like, this huge scandal that was going on that, like, we became aware of, like, through the news, like, you know, sexual harassment that was happening there. And there was like, this major, like, fall from grace for the guy that owned it. And a number of restaurants had, like, you know, found out that was going on and, like, it was really interesting to see how, like, voraciously that was covered by the media and how people were, like, so interested in, like, the. That, like, downfall and, like, schadenfreude around it was. And I think people were, like, you know, seemed more shocked than maybe you might have been had you spent time there.

[Zach Balin]

Sure.

[Kate Sussman]

Cause you could have maybe pieced together that this was, like, you know, that something was up there. But just really liked the idea that, like, what the show that happens every night there, that's so alluring and intoxicating, is, like, often, like, so different than what is actually happening at that place. And so I thought that was a really rich place to just as, like, a background or as, like, a place to set a big story of, like, somewhere where what the presentation is and what the show is is not what's actually happening. And, like, reflects a lot about the brothers.

[Chris Ryan]

One of my favorite recurring images in the series is Jake in his tank top, getting up on, like, he has, like, a cot in the office or whatever. And it's like, this is essentially his life. But it's like you get to see the wizard behind, you know, behind everything. And he's like, yeah, like, every night I put on this show. But then at the end of the night, like, I'm basically like, it's not glamorous. Pretty lonely guy, you know, who's. I think somebody. I know somebody in a restaurant business who once told me it's like taking out a mortgage every single night. And, you know, you think about, like, oh, you take a mortgage out on a house, like, that's one thing to do five times in your life. Like, imagine every night you're like, this is either gonna be great or I'm gonna be in jail.

[Zach Balin]

That's like, someone said when we took on, like, about showrunning that it's like. It's like being beaten to death by your dreams.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Zach Balin]

And I think that's sort of like how, like, what we spoke to a lot of restaurateurs that. That sort of same idea of just, like, you know, it's kind of like.

[Chris Ryan]

Why everybody goes to New York, though.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah.

[Kate Sussman]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like, to have that feeling. I love the way the restaurant that Black Rabbit is conceived of because, like, Spotted Pig, both the allure and also, like, the frustration of the city is like, there's always that other room, you know, and there is always, like, the thing that you can't do. And it's so fun to be like, I can't believe I'm Just, like, hanging out, and Jay Z just walked by. Like, this is weird. Like. But then you're like, but I'm not up there. You know what I mean? And I don't even know if it really used to bother me, because I was in my 20s and early 30s. But it was definitely something you're always aware of in New York is like, you know, the people who cut the line, you know.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah. There's always, like, a rope that you can't get through.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Zach Balin]

And I mean, I think for, like, those guys, they, like, you know, wanted to create the place so that they could be inside of it. And that just, like, I think, is a way which a lot of New Yorkers, like, try to circumnavigate. That is like, well, if I can't get in your party, I'm gonna create my own.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Zach Balin]

You know, and I think, like, you know, there's a scene in episode two where, like, Jason's character, like, there's a flashback where he walks him through the, like, bowels of what, that. Of the restaurant before.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Zach Balin]

You know, and he's, like, talking a lot about, like, Mars Bar, which was a place that we spent, like, a lot of time.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. He's got a library T shirt on at some point. Was that for library? For the bar? Yeah. Okay.

[Zach Balin]

And then upstairs in the. In the third floor of the restaurant. I can't remember if we really ever see it, but. Do you ever went to Mars Bar? You know, in the bathroom at Mars Bar was like this. It's disgusting, but it was all graffiti. And then so they replicated that wall up in the third floor. And I think that idea that you could try. And I mean, the false idea that you can try and replicate something from your youth in that way and that it's gonna turn out well, I think is a lot of what the show is about.

[Chris Ryan]

I think I read in an interview you guys did with. I believe it was, like, creative screenwriting or something. It was a screenwriting site talking about taking nightlife and shooting it during the day and showing what it's like during the day. And some of my favorite moments are those guys walking around. Like, I think there's one scene that looked like it was in the Meatpacking District, but maybe it was down by Essex or something like that. But like, these, like, daytime shots of what it's like to get ready for a life that happens entirely at night. And I was wondering if you could talk to me a little bit about whether that was entirely creative or is there Also like a production solve there. Cause it's like we don't have to do as many night shoots if we're having a lot of stuff happening during the day and that these guys are all running around the city trying to get their life together.

[Kate Sussman]

I think part of like the stress we wanted to show for Jake is it is like, it's kind of like a 24 hour thing, right? You have your job is at night, but then just wanting to set up like how much work it is to run a restaurant. He's like, you know, sleeping there a lot of the time.

[Chris Ryan]

Roxy's at the market. Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Sussman]

So I think we were sort of interested and then like, not to mention like throwing a kid in the mix, it's like kind of something that you like can't do forever. And so we were interested in that. Like what is like, how do you, how do you grow up and still have that job when you're 20 and 30, maybe that's okay and you can just kind of like grind like that and it's okay. But we liked, you know, for someone like Jake and someone like Vince, 50, like the wear and tear of that really, really starts to get you. So I think we wanted to, we wanted to sort of separate those different like times of the day and how they're operating. And then also just like, you know, at night when you see Jake, he's got his jacket on, his shirt on and he looks great. And during the day it's like this guy like does not just look crazy keeping it together. He's crumbling.

[Zach Balin]

And I mean, I'm sure there were some production considerations, but a lot of times like, you know, when you're writing like night stuff just seems so exciting when you. And especially like this show, the world of the show is so much about night. And then, and then when you, then you have to ask the whole crew crew to do it and you have to like get Bateman out there. And then it's 3am and you're like.

[Kate Sussman]

Can I switch the other night scenes to daytime scenes?

[Zach Balin]

Run across the bridge during the day. But I mean, I think also like, I worked in production for a really long time and it was like, you know, in the art department and pa. And I remember just like there's something about being in New York where you're like, either you're working the graveyard shift and you're ending your day and the sun's coming up and the next shift is coming in and people are opening the shutters on their stores and there's Just this. It's just a constant handover of whose city it is throughout the course of any day. And I think that that was really interesting to sort of to try and show a little bit of, you know.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I always loved the subtle shift changes of the city. Like even, even those like moments like where there's like brief traffic lulls, like even over the course of the day where you're like, ah, yes, the, like the 11am to 1:30pm break between like this whole thing being covered in Ubers and cabs or whatever, you know, obviously the show ends with a degree of finality. I wanted to ask about next stuff to the extent that you're able to talk about it. I mean, I personally would love to see, you know, Jake's continuing adventures as an up and coming bartender. But what else is kind of. What are you guys thinking about right now? Even if it's not like an explicit.

[Zach Balin]

Project, this TV experience has been really exciting. You know, I think that most my career so far has been in film and I've been really lucky in that, like a lot of the directors I've worked with, I've gotten to stay on through production. But it's different in TV to really get to have our hands in all those choices. So I think we have a couple TV things that I'm not sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Too early to talk about.

[Zach Balin]

Too early to talk about. But I think things that are in the same sort of world or. Yeah. As Black Rabbit a little bit. And I mean, I think, sorry, I'm monopolizing this, but this show was really personal and it was like, you know, not to get too far into it, but like I have a brother and it's like we poured a lot of our life into this thing and it was a different sort of creative experience than I've had on some of the other things that are. I've done a lot of stuff that is like true story based but not sort of my story. And so I think that one, it was incredibly exciting to get to sort of pour things out like that. It's also made me want to do sort of more of that with Kate. And so I think we're looking at projects a little differently now in that way.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you feel like the. Not even the change, but this feels like a good bucket for the kind of stuff you want to write like this, whether it's limited or not, but like this kind of around seven or eight hours around this kind of feel being able to write for like adults to watch, you know?

[Kate Sussman]

Yeah, definitely. I mean I think we, like, talk about this a lot as like an exercise is like, you know, what are the things that are, you know, we know when we get sent a lot of stuff and we're constantly reading articles and we're like, what is the through line of the things that when we read or when we see, we're like, oh, that's the kind of thing, you know, that I want to get involved in. I mean, I think like, you know, true stories to some extent, but really like identifying like, like real emotions and real drama, but being able to portray it in this kind of like theatrical way. So like, you know, a family drama that feels like a blockbuster like that the emotions and the stakes are so high and so not heightened, but so dramatic and so life or death that they get to be portrayed, you know, in this like, kind of big way. And working with great filmmakers and great actors to portray real identifiable people making identifiable choices on like the worst days of their life.

[Zach Balin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kate Sussman]

Yeah. And just like, you know, and I like watching, you know, heightened stuff too, and find that interesting. But I think we're, we thrive and where we're most like invested in characters is seeing things that you can identify with emotions and identify with people's choices.

[Zach Balin]

That they make or the bad choices they make. And I would just add to that. I think it's like we really think was very exciting about making this, was how dense you could make the story. And I think that that can be challenging for the audience because you're actually asking. We did not want to make second screen TV show where it's like you could fold your laundry while you're watching this. We wanted it to be like, if you're willing to pay attention, there are going to be a lot of reveals and there's going to be a lot of sort of the denseness of storytelling was really exciting. And I think that that's something we want to continue doing. But I also think that's challenging. I don't think there are that many places that want to or willing to invest in that. And we had tremendous resources on this and I don't know that we'll get that again in this kind of way. But I think wanting to make that kind of labyrinth story is.

[Chris Ryan]

It's just really cool. I mean, I don't want to keep you guys, but it is one of those shows where the actual physical setting and the environment that the show is placed in perfectly reflects the plotting and also the character's interiority. So that was always the thing that I love the most about this show was that these people felt like New Yorkers, but it felt like something that was like a lot of the things that happen in the show can only happen in New York. Like there's only a subway system like that in this city that works this way. Or there's like the traffic is like this or like all these things that kind of like really impact how these people behave. So I just really, really enjoyed the show a lot.

[Zach Balin]

I loved it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Zach Balin]

Thank you, Kate.

[Chris Ryan]

Zach, thanks for so much for coming by the watch.

[Zach Balin]

Thank you so much. This was a real pleasure, man. We're a huge fans.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks so much. Arc Raiders, a multiplayer extraction adventure video.

[Kate Sussman]

Game set in a lethal yet vibrant future earth. As a raider scavenging the remnants of a derelict world, you settle into an underground settlement.

[Chris Ryan]

Hoping to thrive.

[Kate Sussman]

You jump on the chance to start over. But doing so means you must return to the surface where army arc machines.

[Chris Ryan]

Roam and survivors motives remain dangerously unclear. But if you're brave enough, who knows what you might find.

[Kate Sussman]

Pre order now for PlayStation 5, Xbox.

[Chris Ryan]

Series XS and PC available October 30th. Happy fall movie season. James Horror is booming, but Oscar contenders are about to hit theaters. Marty Supreme, Springsteen, Deliver Me From Nowhere, Wicked for Good and Bugonia. Don't forget blockbusters like Avatar, Fire and Ash, Predator, Badlands and Five Nights at Freddy's. Those will be huge. We'll cover those movies every week this fall on our podcast, which is called Raiders of the Lost Podcast. Raiders of the Lost Podcast Watch or listen on Spotify.