Creator Brad Ingelsby on the ‘Task’ Finale

Summary

The Watch – “Creator Brad Ingelsby on the ‘Task’ Finale”

Date: October 20, 2025
Host(s): Chris Ryan & Andy Greenwald
Guest: Brad Ingelsby (Creator, Writer of “Task”)

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Overview

This rich, in-depth episode of The Watch breaks down the Task finale with series creator Brad Ingelsby. Chris and Andy begin with a passionate discussion about the thematic power and emotional resonance of the show’s close, before talking with Ingelsby about the series’ evolution from crime drama to a profound meditation on forgiveness, sacrifice, and faith. The conversation explores writing, performance, setting, and spirituality, with a robust focus on character work and the deliberate avoidance of genre convention.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emotional Impact & Musicality of the Finale

• Satisfaction & Structure: Andy found the finale “insanely satisfying,” describing the show as “magisterial” and “deeply moving.” Both hosts reflect on the coda-like structure after the action ends, highlighting the “musicality” of the script and the emotionally charged closing scenes.
  • “I wish I could chart the finale script like a piece of music...” – Chris (03:02)
  • Memorable Moment: Maeve and Harper's final look at Billy and Robbie's house, confronting the fear of forgetting their past but being reassured: “You won’t.”
• Grace and Sacrifice: Andy highlights unexpected “moments of sacrifice and grace” (02:08), noting how Brad Ingelsby’s lack of judgment toward his characters sets the show apart from typical TV morality tales.

2. Thematic Depth: Forgiveness, Grace, and Cycles

• Beyond Crime Genre: Chris and Andy point out how the show reframes expectations, shifting away from being just a gritty drug/crime story and instead focusing on breaking generational cycles and the struggle for redemption.
  • “It's not about that. It's about parents and children, about whether you can break cycles of misery and pain and being trapped in your own circumstances.” – Chris (07:06)
• Religion as Subtext: They discuss the show’s quasi-biblical undercurrents – ideas of God, angels, and demons – with antagonists named the “Dark Hearts,” drawing a sharp symbolic line.
  • “There’s a version of religion that I find...very compelling. There is no room in Task for an actual God or devil, because look at the shit we have to deal with here.” – Andy (08:21)

3. “Task” as Tom’s Story (Not a Two-Hander)

• Subverting Expectations: Andy and Chris praise the series’ gradual shift, revealing that despite its “Heat in Philly” logline, the story is singularly Tom Brandis's journey.
  • “The main character has been here the whole time.” – Andy (37:27)
• Letting Go as Redemption: The finale’s real twist: Tom’s act of faith is letting Sam go, rather than trying to replace lost relationships or repeat past mistakes.
  • “The great gift Tom gives Sam is letting him go. I did not expect that.” – Andy (11:10)
  • “Sam was Tom’s Canada.” – Andy (12:53)

4. Genre Mechanics vs. Character Motivation

• Procedural Elements: Chris observes that crime beats sometimes feel “convenient,” but Andy contends that inevitability and thematic resonance override strict realism.
  • “The best case scenario...is when page-turning plot feels thematically relevant.” – Andy (13:56)
• Humor as Counterpoint: The series weaves in humor (thanks to Martha Plimpton and others) to undercut genre conventions and intensify character relatability.

5. Performance Highlights & Acting Choices

• Tom Pelfrey and Mark Ruffalo: The hosts highlight Pelfrey’s ability to make Robbie so compelling that the show had to give him a stronger send-off, while Ruffalo’s understated performance provides the show’s “heartbeat.”
  • “He was so good that I got done editing the sixth episode and thought, wow, we’re missing something with Robbie.” – Brad (34:43)
  • “It’s the most Mark Ruffalo performance since ‘You Can Count On Me’.” – Andy (24:18)

6. Catholicism, Penance, and Spiritual Inquiry (w/ Brad Ingelsby)

• Why Leave Grasso Alive? Brad shares that Grasso’s punishment is living with shame, not death – tying directly into Catholic ideas of penance and the corrosive nature of guilt.
  • “The worst punishment for Grasso is to have to live with the consequences of his actions...That was something I learned from my uncle, a priest.” – Brad (47:04)
• Writing from Faith and Doubt: Ingelsby draws on his Catholic upbringing—his love for its compassion, confusion over its contradictions—and views most of his work as spiritual inquiry rather than pronouncement.
  • “I’m closest to God when I’m asking the questions, not when I know the answers.” – Brad (49:17)

7. The Children's Perspective & Hopeful Endings

• Giving Voice to Kids: Brad intentionally kept small, honest scenes for young characters like Emily and Sam, allowing the finale to be about generational rebirth as much as loss.
  • “If we’re going to talk about the actions of the fathers, we have to give voice to the kids.” – Brad (55:01)

8. Writing Craft, Character over Plot

• Character-Driven Writing: Procedural/crime elements are “just an excuse to spend time with them,” Brad reveals. He’s far more invested in how characters react to suffering, change, and love.
  • “I hate to say this, I’m really not interested in the procedural stuff. I know an audience needs it, but the thing that gets me excited is writing characters.” – Brad (41:45)

9. Place and Community: Depicting Delco

• Delco as More than a Backdrop: Brad discusses the pressure and responsibility of representing Delaware County authentically, honoring the small heroism of everyday people.
  • “It’s incredibly important to me that I hope the people here appreciate these stories—that I’ve honored this place.” – Brad (69:12)
• Pastoral Visuals: The show’s move into woods and rural spaces (contrary to “urban thriller” expectations) comes directly out of character exploration, not preset genre ambition.

10. The Anchor Speech & the Finale's Climax (Courtroom Scene)

• Building to Tom's Speech: Brad talks about wrestling with writing a speech that needed to encapsulate the show’s themes. He and Ruffalo agreed it would be a written statement, not a memorized monologue.
  • “I felt it was important for him to acknowledge how hard it was first...then, say, but there was also so much joy.” – Brad (76:06)

11. The Possibility of Future Seasons

• Anthology vs. Completeness: Chris and Andy express love for the story’s completeness and question the wisdom of continuing, but Brad is open to more “Task” if the opportunity comes, motivated by the chance to write and spend time with new characters in this world.
  • “It's my dream to write these characters in this place...If there was an appetite, I would do it.” – Brad (79:37)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

On the Finale’s Emotional Power

• “I found this show to be magisterial...the ending was more or less note perfect...a balance between fate, justice, and real moments of sacrifice and grace...”
  — Andy Greenwald [02:08]

• “I wish I could chart the finale script and the episode like a piece of music...”
  — Chris Ryan [03:02]

On Themes of Forgiveness

• “Tom’s act of faith was letting Sam go...believing he was going to be okay. It wasn’t about going back to church. It was his act of faith—having belief that Sam would be okay.”
  — Brad Ingelsby [31:50]

On Subverting Crime Genre

• “It’s not about the drug trade, it’s about whether you can break cycles of misery and pain and being trapped in your own circumstances.”
  — Chris Ryan [07:06]

On Character vs. Plot

• “I’m always interested in a group of characters, and then the crime is an excuse to get them together. The procedural stuff is always hard to write, but the thing that gets me excited is writing characters.”
  — Brad Ingelsby [41:45]

On Delco & Authenticity

• “I have to live here, I have to walk these streets, I have to bump into these people. So it’s incredibly important to me that the characters do justice to them.”
  — Brad Ingelsby [69:12]

On Grasso’s Arc & Catholicism

• “The worst punishment for Grasso is to have to live with the consequences of his actions...That’s something I learned from my uncle, a priest.”
  — Brad Ingelsby [47:04]

• “There are so many things I love about the church and so many things that still make no sense to me. I’m always on the journey, and I love to ask the questions.”
  — Brad Ingelsby [49:45]

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• Maeve and Harper’s Farewell [04:16] — A poignant moment confronting memory, home, and letting go.
• Grasso’s Home Life & Motivation [05:45, 45:02] — Humanizing the antagonist, offering empathy not often delivered in cop/crime shows.
• Tom’s Courtroom Speech [75:41-77:59] — The emotional climax, a nuanced and layered articulation of forgiveness, struggle, and hope.
• Kids’ Second Acts [54:13, 55:01] — Finale imagery focusing on children beginning anew, emphasizing hope and the possibility of different futures.

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Segment Timestamps

• 01:09–13:01: Hosts’ first reactions: emotional, structural, and thematic breakdown of the finale.
• 13:01–28:27: Deep dive on the finale’s approach to crime drama mechanics, character arcs, and subtle subversions.
• 30:41–81:12: Interview with Brad Ingelsby: structural choices, faith, forgiveness, character focus, Delco setting, and writing challenges.
• 55:01–57:48: Discussing why kids’ perspectives matter, and the challenge/importance of keeping those scenes.
• 75:41–77:59: Insights into crafting Tom’s crucial courtroom speech.

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Summary Tone and Style

Throughout, Chris and Andy maintain their trademark mix of warmth, humor, and geeky intensity—frequently referencing regional in-jokes, dropping pop culture analogies, and honestly interrogating the series and its creator. Brad Ingelsby matches their candor with contagious enthusiasm for character-driven drama, gentle self-deprecation, and thoughtful exploration of the show’s spiritual and emotional core.

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For New Listeners

This episode is an ideal listen (or read) for anyone curious about how Task evolved from a genresavvy crime drama into a profound, character-driven meditation on loss, faith, and new beginnings. It’s also an exemplary study in how great writing and acting can transform TV, as well as a tribute to the storytelling power of specificity—geographic, emotional, and spiritual. Even without having watched the series, the episode unpacks its topics with clarity and depth, offering valuable insights about TV, faith, and the enduring struggle to do right by those we love.

Transcript

[Chris Rye]

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[Brad Inglesby]

I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Rye]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Rye and I am an [e-mail] and joining me on the other line, unselfish with his love, it's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's the nicest thing you ever said about me, Andy.

[Chris Rye]

We are recording this for Sunday night release after the Task finale. We have a wonderful, nice, long, healthy, thoughtful interview with Brad Inglesby to share with you guys. So we're going to talk a little bit about the Task finale and the, the series finale. We assume maybe series finale, maybe just season finale, who knows. And then we'll get into our interview with Brad where we got into a bunch of stuff from this last episode as well as how, how the, the whole thing made us feel, which was quite a bit. It's great to see you. I really can't wait to talk to you about this episode and sort of the end of this, this season. Let me just start here. We'll start broadly. Do you find it satisfying?

[Andy Greenwald]

I found it insanely satisfying. I mean, I feel like it's worth noting right, that like eight hour time delay between us. I'm watching this show these last few episodes perhaps in kind of an emotional transoceanic haze. I'm willing to accept that may be playing into it. But I found this show to be magisterial. I found it to be deeply, deeply affecting, deeply moving. I thought the ending was more or less note perfect in the way that it balanced fates justice, outcomes that were predictable in ways that felt acceptable and also some really, I think Surprising moments of sacrifice and grace, especially in the very end moments of the finale. So I'm really, really affected by the show, and I'm excited to talk to you about it.

[Chris Rye]

I wish I could chart the finale script and the finale episode like a piece of music, because I think.

[Brad Inglesby]

The.

[Chris Rye]

Things I felt like in the last 30 minutes, I. I have no doubt are somewhat shaped by, like, my personal experiences and maybe where my head is at right now. And I think that.

[Andy Greenwald]

That.

[Chris Rye]

That might be, like, an individual thing. I'm sure people could have critiques of. Of certain aspects of this show and certain aspects of the finale, but I think that there was some kind of, like, beautiful musicality to the. To the way this season ended and the way, like, the coda kind of took 35 minutes or however long it was after the last shootout occurs. And you kind of get this look into what these people's lives are like after. After, like, all the guns are done shooting and all the cuffs have been put on wrists and all that. And I just found it profoundly satisfying, but also, like, deeply moving. You know, the moment where Maeve and Harper are looking at Billy and Robbie's house for the last time and they're home for the last time and are like, you know, I'm worried I'm gonna forget all about this.

[Brad Inglesby]

And it's.

[Chris Rye]

She's just like, you won't. Like, I thought that too, but you won't forget it. And it's just Inglesby has, like, a real affection for the people he writes about. And I think, yeah, you could say in some ways that that's like. Does. Does he cut Grasso too much slack? Does he, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Does he create sort of safety zones for these characters where maybe they don't have to deal with certain consequences or that certain things don't happen?

[Brad Inglesby]

I don't know.

[Chris Rye]

I mean, like, I. At the end of the day, I get to the end of this season, and I just wind up feeling real gratitude for the show itself. There's a couple of things I wanted to bounce off of you, but what did you.

[Andy Greenwald]

You want to. I just want to respond to something specifically you said, which was you were talking about a moment that stuck with you of Maeve and Harper. Looking back on the house, the moment that stuck out to me is something that you just sort of alluded to, which is the end of the previous episode. There's a phenomenal. I guess, in a weird way, although we didn't expect it coming between these two characters, the closest task actually came to the heat diner scene between Tom and Grasso where he's like, I'm coming for you. And he's like, well, come at me then. Big dog's gotta eat kind of scene. We were on this podcast a week ago saying, oh, okay. So the show put one over on us two different ways. It's not actually a two hander, and that's something we talked to Brad about and you guys will hear it soon enough. But also, maybe Grosso is the big bad at the end of the. The tunnel. This episode. Crosso goes to visit his sister.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And we see him bantering with his nephews and we understand, you know, in beautifully drawn shorthand why he is the way he is.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Why he does what he does. And I find that to be very affecting. I think that Brad writes from a position not of judgment, which is a theme in the series, but one of the grace and giving people space to be fully alive. And again, this is something that we talk about when we have Brad on the line. But I find his incredible thirst similar to Tom's thirst for vodka in the first few episodes. His thirst for life, for more life, for more stories, for more context, for more richness, for more reasons to be really, really compelling and really moving, honestly, in a way that a lot of television shows just aren't these days. And I'm not trying to do a drive by on other TV shows. You can watch procedurals that will give you definitive answers and you can watch prestige television shows that are awash in very heavy questions. But what this show does is kind of quest and hope in a way that feels very relatable, if not necessary at this particular moment in time.

[Chris Rye]

I thought, you know, we talk a little bit. We talk quite a bit with Brad in the upcoming interview about God, which.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is sort of funny, kind of a first for us.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. And it's.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you, did you not do that with the guy from drug church last year? I haven't gotten back to it, but.

[Chris Rye]

It'S one of those things where I think it's a more useful reading of this TV show to think about it in almost these. Whether you would want to say biblical or mythological terms, to imagine this is about, you know, these. These people who are like kind of fallen and trying to redeem themselves. And if you want to look at the evil on this show or the heavies or the antagonists, they're not called the dark. They're called the dark hearts for a reason. You know what I mean? Like there is a demon to an angel. You know, there is a counterbalance. And I think it's a very useful way to view the show about. I think you would go into it and you'd be like, oh, it's going to be a gritty southeastern PA crime epic about the drug trade and how it moves from reading through the cities and, you know, the bike gangs vying for control of different. And it's like, no, it's not about that. You know what I mean? It's about parents and children, and it's about whether or not you can break cycles of misery and pain and being trapped in your own circumstances.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's a version of religion that I find from my other kind of church across the street, maybe in Gladwin. Like, very, very compelling. There is no room in the mythology of Task for an actual God or an actual devil, because look at the shit we have to deal with here. It's not really worth wondering about eternal damnation and hellfire when you can have the kind of experiences that Robbie and Tom have had in the last 18 months. Right. And I think it's worth noting that for as much as Brad shows this in Maraviestown are set in Delco. Yes, that is very, very, very much true. Maybe what's worth saying instead is these shows don't go anywhere but Delco and Pennsylvania. There is nowhere else. In the same way that I think, you know, Grasso expresses that view, that maybe there's no place other than this. We get views of quote, unquote, heaven and it's a bunch of trees in Canada. We get views of hell in terms of other people's behavior. But what the show is ultimately about is the choices we make. Right here. Right here happens to be in places like Radnor and other places where we spent birthday parties in our youth. So obviously, we're a little bit predisposed to be vibing with it. But I think that it's a very compelling vision of just how we fucking got to do our best. And the fact that it was so artfully evolved into. Well, it's not even. Right, I was going to say evolved into a show about one man's journey towards forgiveness. It was that from the beginning. Brad talks to us about that, but, like, the way that we came to accept Tom's journey as the primary focus of the show, I thought was just so subtly done and so artfully done.

[Chris Rye]

Well, it's the twist of the show, isn't it?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's the twist of the show. And yet it still had one last card to play with the Sam Business, which I think I didn't see coming. And I think that's interesting because you and I really, really vibe with the way that Brad Inglesby writes television. I think we probably both and many other viewers probably were like, oh, I see, maybe there's a Grasso redemption arc of sorts brewing here. I think last week I was patting myself on the back for saying, oh, Sam's going to get adopted by Tom. I wish I had seen it sooner. I also felt confident, even though it was quite stressful, that Harper was not going to catch a stray like that. In this world, there are certain rules, like awful things happen, but I did not think that was going to happen, so I felt comfortable watching it. The one thing that I did not think was going to happen, and I, and I want to know your perspective on this. Whether it is because of my pre imagined rules of television or my pre imagined rules of the television of Brad Inglesby, which I clearly got wrong, I did not see that we were heading towards the great gift that Tom is giving to Sam is letting him go. I did not expect, I didn't expect that.

[Chris Rye]

I didn't expect this being a show. I thought, I thought this was a show about two guys on opposite sides of the law, you know what I mean? And then I thought it was kind of like us. And then I thought it was a show about criminal organizations and law enforcement organizations being undone by moles and people working at cross purposes to them. And it then became about a guy who learns to forgive his adopted son by letting his other adopted son go have a life free from everything that kind of has any connection to his damaged parents and the, and the incredibly traumatic way that he came into his adolescence.

[Andy Greenwald]

It breaks the cycle. Yeah, right.

[Chris Rye]

And it's the same thing with Maeve and Harper going off to, I guess, Canada or wherever they were, six hours north or whatever.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, they go somewhere else, but they don't go somewhere else in this lifetime. And by this lifetime, I mean our lifetime of watching the show like it's off screen. It's beyond history. It's over. Yeah, it's such an interesting, it's such an interesting thing, this idea that he, that he would let, that he would let him go in a way. And I think there's something profound about the fact that Tom's ultimate acceptance, Tom's ultimate journey is not just towards, you know, sobriety or making amends or whatever. It is actually accepting life with the son that he has. You know, I think that that's kind of a powerful Thing because even the most, I don't know, empathetic viewers probably, like, what a beautiful thing to have a second chance. Yeah. But Sam was Tom's Canada, right?

[Chris Rye]

Absolutely.

[Andy Greenwald]

He has, he has to stay in. Yeah. Fortunately, like many of us, he has to stay in the United States.

[Chris Rye]

Let's talk really quickly about the crime stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's do it.

[Chris Rye]

Because I personally liked it, It. It all falls into place in a way that I think some people will find a little convenient, where multiple times in the last couple of episodes, everybody is converging on the same place at the exact same time.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's true.

[Chris Rye]

A lot of the, let's just say, like, narrative rushing attack where it's like, let's hand the ball off so that we can get 3 yards is progressed by. We've, we've triangulated his cell phone or a source told me that Shelly is doing this and it's like, who's the source? And like, what are you. What are you talking about? Did you find it too convenient or did you find it to be exactly what was supposed to happen? Because it's got to happen to have, like, the desired effect of. For the characters.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think the best case scenario in crime fiction, a subject you and I are very passionate about, is when you feel that inevitability of page turning, of plot advancing, but it also feels thematically relevant to the material that we're dealing with. So conceptually, the idea that you cannot escape these perpetually repeating systems of violence or fear of pursuit of money or whatever the case may be, you simply can't escape them. Everybody's living on top of each other in this place. That's one of the themes of the show. The idea that everything, literally, the chickens shout out, gertie, come home to roost is baked in. I mean, it was made evident the moment the show revealed that Maeve is not only the daughter of Billy who was in the Dark Hearts, but Dark Hearts, but was sleeping with Jason's wife. And everyone in the Dark Hearts remembers Maeve and Crazy Robbie. It's not that far fetched at that point to me that said, I am a proud, leather jacketed member of the Soft Hearts. And I proudly tell you on this podcast, proudly tell you on this podcast that there was a part of me in the previous episode where when Maeve sees the bag of money and I was like, thank God we won't see Maeve in the finale because it all worked out.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, I had a feeling that was going to blow up in Maeve's Face a little bit when they were just like just hide it in the one place Perry definitely seen you hanging out.

[Andy Greenwald]

For what it's worth, that was fairly good advice from her normcore friend.

[Chris Rye]

Oh, she's a ride or die. Was there her name Bridget? Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, she. For what it's worth, I thought that was a pretty savvy read of the situation because I think you and I due to the entertainment we consume have definitely spent considerable amount of Malcolm Gladwell hours just wondering how we might respond in certain situations or like what the only good thing to do if blank is you know. And head on a swivel. That one. I thought it was a good plan.

[Chris Rye]

What do you do? What do you think about my idea of we freeze time before everything goes wrong and we a spin off show of Perry and Jason. But it's like Waiting for Godot. It's just like they're stuck in that cabin making different trout preparations.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all I'm in London so I have to say waiting for God.

[Chris Rye]

Oh, sorry.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just FYI. Yeah, no, it's. I'll let you get away with it once. The second thing is a great poll by you. I thought of a different. Enter recent entertainment. It. I got real mountain head vibes.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

From that. That I feel like if this had had like a two hour runtime there could have been a lot of stuff similar like we are going to kill a guy in this house kind of comedy antics. But that is a well traveled boning knife. I will say that it is.

[Chris Rye]

And I and I just want to say for any motorcycle gangs that are listening, I would recommend that if you have bike chains not to put your initials on them.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was a. That is a really smart call.

[Chris Rye]

You know, I think in this day and age granted we live in a surveillance state. Perhaps we can find you in other ways. But you know, if it's. It didn't take a lot of. Of thinking through to find who's PD who might be in the dark hearts. Huh.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean it may have been as they say over here over egging the pudding a bit because I do think when they pull her body from the quarry and she has a bike chain like again I feel like there was. It was a relatively short path.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. I mean I personally just liked the idea and I was okay with the idea that everybody's sins, you can't wash them away. They're all following them around. Jason was going to find that out. You know, Jason and Perry on some.

[Andy Greenwald]

Level was I think okay with him finding it out.

[Chris Rye]

I Mean, yeah, because obviously he has, like, this father, son relationship with Jason. I just want to say briefly, with the Grasso thing, I had kind of in my head, if we didn't get a backstory to why Grasso was doing this, sort of written a Departed style. Grasso is always like a child of the dark hearts kind of friends, lifelong friends with Jason. Although I don't really know, Right. If that's a very rewarding relationship.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, I mean, I don't. Jason doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who has lifelong friends. Like, I think we all could imagine what he was like on the playground. And I can see Jason being a.

[Chris Rye]

Cool guy to hang and play Halo with, maybe, but, like, not as soon as you kind of introduce any, like, outside of influences, I think it's pretty bad. But Grasso has a very, I guess, understandable. You know, if I. I needed to move my mother into a nursing home, I needed to buy a house.

[Andy Greenwald]

Listen, this is the right podcast for that kind of conversation.

[Chris Rye]

And that in itself, you know, you can't forgive him for, like, Lizzie getting killed basically because of his actions. But, you know, at the end of the day, he's given this sort of a narrative that makes a little bit more sense as to why he would betray his fellow law enforcement. But what did you think of Frankel in his performance and the. The sort of Grosso arc here?

[Andy Greenwald]

I. I do want to say, I. Just before I forget, before we move on from the Perry and Jason and Aaron of it all, like, I think that, you know, sometimes people throw around when they're talking about a show, they're like, oh, well, it's just because it's hbo. It's blank. And often they're like, it gets a pass because of the starry actors or just even the way that it's shot. Like, yeah, the moment that stood out to me is, like, why this is an HBO show is the fact that they had the resources to do a splinter unit to film police divers retrieving Eren's body. Yes. Like, that is something in a script that 9 out of 10 networks and streamers are like, do you need it? Like, we. There's no way. It's definitely gonna just feel like they.

[Chris Rye]

Found Aaron's body and she has Perry's chain in her hand, and we're just.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, all right, exactly. Or you do it in the morgue or something. Like, it's an. It's an exterior shot, it's a location shot. There's no one in the scene that you Know, unless Margarita Levova really just, you know, lay flat for a couple hours. So. But, but it's, it's worth it. Like that's the time. Like that's worth the spend.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

To. I said this last week. I'll say it again. I owe Ser Criston Cole an apology. I was not familiar with your, the true extent of your game. I think Fabian Frankel was incredible on this show. I think he was completely believable. I think he was completely alive in the character. I think that he was playing the version that we saw in the kitch with his sister the entire time. You know, like it's sort of an abstract comment to make, but especially because often actors don't know what's in future scripts now I think all the scripts were written for this, so it's possible that he knew the backstory. But it's very rewarding as a viewer when you feel like the actor has been playing something, has been holding a card and makes sense if you track it through the performance, that he has people that he thinks about that motivate him. I thought the performance was really vulnerable.

[Chris Rye]

Me too.

[Andy Greenwald]

In a way that I thought was really, really affecting. I thought the way that he delivered before the bullets start flying, the speech about how he's going to turn himself in, it tracked to me. I loved the explosion of I don't know how you did this for 20 years. Like I, I can't, I can't sleep. My stomach's all messed up and I was like, buddy, fly to London seven times in a year. You know, it's like it's basically the same thing. I'm gonna go turn myself into the embassy.

[Chris Rye]

What embassy?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, Wind, Horse Fingers, I don't know. I heard there's some nice land up in Canada. What do you think of it?

[Chris Rye]

He was great. And it's, it's just really the idea of making an emo vulnerable sweet rat is a really cool wrinkle on that storyline, you know what I mean? Like there's other versions of this show where, you know, the twist is that he's been the bad guy the whole time and he runs fent in, in Philly, you know, or something. And it's, it becomes a little bit more demonic. It just felt like it felt consistent and in tune with and in the same key of the rest of the characters journeys. Even if it didn't feel like the most pipe hitting, hard ass crime shit that we like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look, there are, there are tropes are real for a reason. And some of our Favorite shows, including, in some. In certain ways, this one, like, fall back on them. You know, whether it's the. Just the mole or the, you know, the villain with the one Achilles heel of emotion or whatever the case may be. But there's a tendency, think in the TV shows that you and I like the best, that brings an almost, like, journalistic sensibility in, like, not in the sense of like, Seymour Hersh uncovering, like, WMDs, but like Joseph Mitchell or like other New York writers being like, what's your story, man on the street? Like, there's such a deep, deep well of curiosity within the writing of this show that, you know, in real life, I was about to say, in real life, people aren't just pure evil. But, you know, maybe I'm starting to reconsider that phrase. But, like, generally, people are the main characters of their own story.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And they have reasons for what they do that are not entirely Machiavellian. And it's difficult and sometimes not warranted to find space for that to be given voice in cop shows, crime shows, the TV shows that move the needle or get us talking week to week. I'm very grateful when we see that. And so whether it's. Whether it's Jason having real anguish over the discovery of Aaron's body or whether it's Kathleen downing opioids with white wine at 10am like, everybody has a little bit extra, and they found the room for it and they fought to have the room forward. And kudos to HBO for giving them the room for. Made it a richer. It made it a richer experience.

[Chris Rye]

Martha Plimpton, as the tool for this shit captain is. That's also an HBO hallmark, is like, hey, let's get. Let's get this incredible performer to do something that we've never gotten to see her do before and watch her slide into it like, she's been in Sidney Lumet movies for most of her life. You know, like, she has been in some. But I mean, like, I think there's.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's no. And just to put a bow on it, like, there is no better Avatar for the type of humanity that we're talking about here than. Than Mark Ruffalo. Like, do you remember. Do you remember the way people talked about him? When you can count on me came out. So that movie came out. He was relatively unknown. And anyone who saw that movie or anyone who read about movies fell in love with him. Right. In such a deep and intense way. Not necessarily because he was the character that he played in that movie, and he played him brilliantly, but because it was just like watching an X ray of someone's emotional system. He's completely alive second to second with the kind of emotions that usually just pass over people's face. Like, you know, like, fucking wind going through the wheat and Gladiator. And this isn't necessarily his best performance, but it. At least in my recent memory, it's the most Mark Ruffalo performance since then. Yeah. Because the other thing you and I didn't see coming was that it wasn't just about the steady drumbeat of his humanity, like, is a backdrop to all the crime shit. It was all building towards his scene of forgiveness and his speech. And we talked to Brad a lot about that, so we don't need to.

[Chris Rye]

Let's.

[Andy Greenwald]

We break it down again.

[Chris Rye]

We can talk about that because we get into the last shot. We get into the.

[Andy Greenwald]

The speech.

[Chris Rye]

A lot of stuff with English.

[Andy Greenwald]

Incredible shit.

[Chris Rye]

I'll talk to you next week. It's great seeing you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you wait. I got. I got to get you on the record for. I got to get you on the record for one more thing about this. We. Again, we asked Brad about it, but, like, do you want more Task at the end of Mayor, we were like, why can't we have more of this? And I think they went a little bit down the road, and I don't know the details, but I feel like the takeaway was it would have to top the first one, so maybe we just leave it alone.

[Chris Rye]

I want more Inglesby Delco stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

I am very open to ruffle. Like, Tom takes McGinty's job when she retires and runs a new task force or whatever. I do think that one of the things that is amazing about Mayor and Task is the completeness of the story. Like, I want to leave Tom in that bedroom. You know, I don't want him to then be like, emily's been kidnapped, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's legit.

[Chris Rye]

I want my own version of that story. And I feel the same way about Mary, honestly, for as much as I love it and, like, the things that happen in Mayor are the craziest things that would ever happen in somebody's life. I don't know if you want to do season two of that now. That being said, it's right there to have mayor and to have Winslet and Ruffalo in a show together and do a crossover of some kind. And if this is like a Delco crime universe, you know that we'll be the first ones in line.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I think you're right that maybe the actual way to do it would be Freddie is the guy doing the drugs. Because for as much as the word, during the rise of the prestige television era, there was a lot of talk about novels and books on TV or whatever. And it's like David Simon saying, each episode is a chapter, not the whole book. Okay. Task and Mayor are novels in a way that I really, really appreciate and that obviously resonate with us. And part of the beauty of a work of fiction at length, Right, is that the characters can go on journeys but have, like, symmetrical or complementary arcs. And what's beautiful to me about Task, among many things, is, like, Robbie's story is rich, profound, and, as you said, complete. It's also, you know, finite. I mean, he's dead. Yeah. Tom is not dead in the narrative, but his story is, is equally profound, equally complete and complete because of its relationship to Robbie's story. So I, I, I'm kind of talking myself into agreeing with you because they did it. They. Yeah. If I could quote a dormant podcast, they stuck the landing on this.

[Chris Rye]

Let's get into our interview with Brad Engelsby and Andy will be back later this week to chat with me, I'm sure. Thanks to everybody listening for our to our task stuff. It's been really fun talking about it. Greenwald, I'll see you later this week.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you want to just say overdose or homeowner one more time? No.

[Chris Rye]

Okay.

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[Andy Greenwald]

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[Chris Rye]

Andy and I are so honored to welcome Brad Inglesby, the bard of Southeastern Pennsylvania, the creator of Task, the writer of Task, one of Andy and I's favorite shows of the year. And you've just watched the finale, if you were here, because we are going to be talking explicitly about stuff that happens in the finale and the season of Task. Brad, thank you so much for joining us.

[Brad Inglesby]

Oh, my God, I'm honored to be here, guys. I always love talking to you.

[Chris Rye]

I want to. First of all, I just got to say I found myself pretty emotionally overwhelmed by the finale and in very unexpected ways. I went into this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Really, you.

[Chris Rye]

Know, obviously, like, expecting this amazing prestige kind of crime drama. And I think I walked away with something much different. And I wanted to kind of ask you about why did you do this show and what were the things that you were kind of working out? Cause, you know, obviously you like this kind of stuff and you love, like, crime TV crime stories. But it felt like there was something much deeper at play here for you.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah, I think I really started with, you know, the Tom's character, you know, the character of Tom and the journey of forgiveness and that. And. And that to me. And it goes back to Mayor. Guys, I really, really can say that Mare was the story in my head from the earliest, earliest seeds was about a woman who wasn't going to confront the death of her son and quite literally has to go up to the attic at the end. And that, to me, was what that story was about. There were a lot of other developments along the way, and it became a whodunit. But that to me, was really interesting and the same for Task. It really started with Tom Brandis. I had gotten into this idea of a caretaker and how hard it would be to take care of a child with a psychiatric disorder. And I started to go down that road and ask how it would question my faith and my ability to get out of bed every day. And so that was really what I was interested in. And then exploring how that character in some way, in this case through interacting with Robbie and the task force, has to let go of the anger that he's been holding inside and has to forgive his son. And that to me was like the simplest seed of a story. And that was my interest in it was a guy who's lost his faith at the end has to come back. And I always felt, which I don't know if you. I mean, I hope it resonated with you, but I always felt like at the end of the story, his act of faith was letting Sam go, that he was gonna. He allowed Sam to go and he had faith that he was going to be okay. And that was his act of faith at the end was letting Sam go and believing he was going to be okay. It wasn't that Tom was going back to church and kneeling at the altar or saying mass or any of that. It was his act of faith, was having a belief that Sam was going to be okay. He wanted to keep Sam, but he had to let him go. And so that's what really started the story for me. And then I had to fill in all the other action beats and plot beats along the way, guys.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, Brad, first of all, because my mic wasn't really working, I haven't spoken yet. So thank you for the show and thank you for joining us. I'm interested to hear you say that your relationship to the show was Tom's journey. And I think that one of the things that was really rewarding and surprising about watching the series week to week was the slow reveal that this really was Tom's story. That what we thought was a two hander ended up being a one hander, if you will. That the logline that, you know, that we got excited about this is Heat in Philly. A, wasn't really in downtown Philly and B, wasn't really about two guys running toward each other. It was about one guy moving forward. So since you've known that from the beginning, I'm curious what your log line was when you spoke to Mark Ruffalo about joining the cast, when you talked to Tom Pelfrey, how did you communicate the show to them in a way that you could tell us now that we've seen it all?

[Brad Inglesby]

Yes, well, you know, well, look, I did say to them, listen, it's a collision course of these two guys, but I always knew when Robbie was going to die. And I said that, you know, what always, you know, what I always felt strongly about was that a part of Tom's own journey to releasing the anger was meeting Robbie and seeing. And seeing Robbie's sacrifice, right? Realizing in the end, when he sees the picture that Kath gives him is like, oh, wow, he did have a plan. He knew what he was doing going up there along. He wasn't going up there to get away. He was going up there as a sacrifice in some way to better his family. And so I always said that to those two guys. I never shied away from the collision course. And I do think, and look, I'll also say this on the page, it was probably more Tom's journey on the page, but Tom Pelfrey was so good that. And I'll also tell you another story. He was so good that I got done editing the sixth episode and it always ended with Maeve, you know, with Maeve getting the money. And I thought, wow, we're missing something with Robbie. We have to give him a moment of triumph or something. And then I went back into the dailies and we found this random little 8 second clip of him laughing. I think Jeremiah, our director, was off camera, you know, making a joke or something. And it's why that episode ends, ends with Pelfrey instead of Amelia, was because I just felt like the audience had become so attached to him. And look, it's the same problem I had with Evan in Mare on the page. Evan's character was good, but it wasn't that good, I'll be honest. And Evan came in and was so charming that when we got to editing the fifth episode of Mayor, I went, dude, we're really in trouble. An audience is going to hate us. They love this character so much. And I felt the exact same way about Robbie, that he was a very compelling character on the page. But Tom just elevated this character and he was really in everyone's heart. And so I think sometimes, Andy, and you're a writer too, you know this, that a character, an actor is able to bring out a character in ways you can't expect or predict. And Pelfrey really did that. And so, you know, it's one of those worries that I had when I actually watched the episode six is like, Tom is such a compelling presence. What is an episode without him going to feel and look like? And how are we going to carry it through? And it's why I, I hope that ending sequence in the courtroom and the stuff with Maeve that there's still enough of that emotional investment and attachment to carry the audience through.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's also a testament to Mark Ruffalo's performance and just the innate humanity and humility that he brings to every performance. Because you watch those first few episodes and you're like, well, this isn't a movie star performance. This is the bass drum, the heartbeat of the show. And then it's only when the snare drum drops out of the mix that you realize that that's been keeping you alive the whole time. And you somehow coaxed that. I don't know if you coaxed that performance. You encourage that performance, or he just found the rhythm to realize that the star of the show has been here the whole time. The main character has been here.

[Brad Inglesby]

You know, I would always say to Mark, it's such a humble performance. I think if you look, as you said, if you look at the early episodes, he's really letting everybody else shine. Alison's, you know, all of her humor, and Kathleen and Martha, he allows them to shine in a way. And like you said, he's sort of almost very quiet in those early scenes. And then, only then does he rise up. I think only when I always said that, I think he's only activated, really, when he thinks he's going to die. And he says, I need to call my son. And I think if you look at his performance after that point, he's way more active in a way that we haven't seen. That's a turning point. When he thinks he's going to die, he then says, I have to call my son. I have to say something to him. And that's the turning point. And every. Every scene with him after that, he's more activated, he's more aware, he's more present. And so that, I felt like, was the turning point in his character. In those moments with Robbie when he, you know, he's starting to feel like he could die, he starts to get activated in a way that we haven't seen before.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, it's awesome, because I think a different performer. Well, I'm guessing, but I think a different performer might be like, I need to do something pretty cool in these first few episodes. And I don't know if he did this on purpose or if this is just a trick of the light and I noticed it or what, but, like, I feel like I may have even mentioned this to you when we did the event a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, he acts the first half of the season, up through five, really, with very heavy eyelids. Like, his eyes are almost closed. And it's like his eyes open After. And even the last shot of this show is him looking up and finally seeing, like, life again. I don't know if he was like, I have that in my back pocket. I'm gonna break it out for the last shot of this series. But it worked, man. I was like, holy shit, I can't believe this just happened.

[Brad Inglesby]

No, he said, you know, and I also think he, he acted with, like, just the, you know, I always, especially in the early episodes, could feel the weight of the world on his shoulders, the way he walked around. And like, he was able to bring all of that trauma and guilt and regret and pain into, into those scenes. And you, it's so every scene, even when he was, you know, even when it was a procedural scene, you felt all the family stuff on him. And that's what's so great about the release, I think, at the end is that it's, it's sort of he's able to let go of all that stuff. And as an audience, we've experienced it with him just in the way he walks around, interacts with people. And so I'm really glad you felt that way at the end, that there was some kind of release or letting go or, you know, I, I, that's what we intended it to be, was there. You know, I wanted it to be a hopeful ending.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, I mean, I, I was. So I wanted to ask you about 6 and 7, but especially the mechanics of some of the more crime fiction genre aspects of it, because I think one of the things that was liberating about watching this was letting go of, you know, being a little bit of a granular realist about everything and, like, what is the exact kind of, like, procedural doctrine these guys should be following? And, yeah, almost feeling like this was more like a bunch of people that were not in control of their own lives and something was pushing them to these locations and having them collide and.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

How much do you let what you want to say about human life dictate the crime stuff? And how much do you let the crime stuff dictate what you want to say about humanity?

[Brad Inglesby]

It's always, it's always the, I'm always interested in a group of characters. And then the crime is just an excuse. It's just an excuse to get them together. I mean, true. And I think every time I get to writing a procedural scene, I cringe and go, oh, my God, what can I do to possibly make it interesting? Like, these scenes kill me. I hate procedural scenes. And if you look at Task in particular, I think my Remedy is always to add some humor, like Martha Plimpton. So they're getting these procedural beats, but they're always a laugh or a joke. Because I'm really, you know, I hate to say this, Chris. I'm really not interested in the procedural stuff. I mean, I shouldn't say. I'm. I shouldn't say that. I know an audience needs to follow a story and they're. And you. And you need to move the ball down the field. But I'm really, really interested in the way these people interact and the way an incident changes their life or situation, how they react in the face of suffering, how they react in the case of Tom in the wake of losing his faith. Like, those are the things that get me out of bed every morning. The procedural elements, I'm telling you, they're always hard to write and yet I know there's a need to have them. But the thing that gets me excited and the reason I got into this business, it was to write. I wanted to write characters. I wanted to understand how they interact with each other, how they respond in the face of losing someone they love. Those are the things that get me excited. And the other stuff is just an excuse to spend time with them. And I really, truly feel that way. And I think that's why what you're getting at is that even we have those procedural scenes. They're quick and fast and we don't go into the computer screens or laptops or cell phones. We almost just quickly snatch the clue that gets us to the next scene of interacting with these people. I care about you.

[Andy Greenwald]

We get it. You love the beauty and the poetry of the game. You're not an X's and O's guy. You're like Kevin Petullo, right? You just like the assortment of players.

[Chris Rye]

The over under for Jimmy Petula references was seven minutes and Andy.

[Andy Greenwald]

You don't need to get them to run in the same direction or in opposite directions. So a lot of the conversation about the season obviously circles themes of forgiveness. The word penance comes up specifically in this finale. Tom does not judge Grasso. He leaves that for himself to do. He forgives Ethan. But Brad, you're the creator of the show and inevitably you doled out some justice, especially in the finale. Some fates. Felt like you're balancing the scales. Aaron's bodies recovered. Perry dies in the water as well.

[Chris Rye]

The dark hearts did not get forgiven. I would say that.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah, that's fair. No, we let them go.

[Andy Greenwald]

They had some heavy losses. I guess the specific question is in the role of creator and judge, jury and executioner. Why is Grasso left alive? Why was it important for you to give him that arc and even to give him the chance, give us the chance to understand him more this episode via the introduction of his sister?

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah, well, I thought that scene was really important, and that was one that we had planned. And Lily Kay came in as a wonderful actress, came in, and she. And she. And God bless her, she came in, did one day of work, and that scene was always in there. Because one of the things we. We talk about a lot on set is, hey, we don't have to agree with the decision these people make. We don't have to agree with Agrasso or Robbie. But I feel as a writer that it's my responsibility to understand why. And that's what that scene with Grasso and his sister did, I think, was to at least understand why, how he got in this situation in the first place, and the shame he feels about his decision. And I think, you know, one of the things. My uncle, he was a. You know, he was a priest, and he would hear confession, and one of the things he said to me was, I'd be in the booth, and the same people would come every single week, and they would say, you know, I cursed at my mom or I lied to my spouse. And he would say, you know what? I'm not going to give you any penance. I'm going to talk to God on your behalf. I don't want you to worry about these things. I'm going to talk to God. Well, they came back every single week with the same sins it was. They wanted the penance. Right. And the shame was so overwhelming and corrosive. And, you know, I grew up Catholic, and it's still something I deal with. And I feel like I was exploring a bit of myself in Grasso and trying to just understand things. I think that's a part of his journey. Along the way, he's asking Tom these questions. Along the way, he wants to believe again. He wants to have a faith.

[Andy Greenwald]

And.

[Brad Inglesby]

And I think what I was getting at with Tom is that almost the worst punishment that Grasso could have is to be. Is to have to deal with it on his own. You know, it's.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's.

[Brad Inglesby]

It's almost worse than death, in a way for Grasso is to have to live with the consequences of his actions. I'm not going to let you off the hook, Grasso. You know, I'm not going to give you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm.

[Brad Inglesby]

I'm going to let you sit with what you've done on your own. And I think that's something that I learned from my uncle, is that the people, you know, they were always beating themselves up. You know, it didn't require him to, you know, have any penance or dole out any pen. They were doing it themselves way worse than any penance he could give them. And that really resonated with me, and I felt like that was something. Grosso, who I felt grew up in the Catholic Church in South Philly, had that experience, that institution that he felt had let him go or had let him down. I felt like that would be a punishment worth. I think it would be worse than him actually passing away in that last scene. It's just the ability he has to go on with his life and deal with the consequences of what he's done.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I did want to ask you specifically about Catholicism because while I may recognize the Delco accents, that is not a church I'm familiar with, certainly growing up in. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about your experiences, like, young Brad, if you will. Like, were there elements of growing up in the church that excited you or surprised you or intrigued you in the same way that the comic books maybe you were reading did, or books like, is there something that lit you up with questions or the size of the world or the beauty in the world? Because. Yeah, I just love to hear your thoughts on that, because it's baked into the show in a way that's fascinating, Daniel.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah, it really is. I mean, it was something that, you know, that was the one role my father had. He wasn't a disciplinarian, but he's like, if you're gonna live under this roof, you have to go to church every week. I don't care if it's Saturday night or Sunday morning, you are gonna go to church. And so it was such a part of my upbringing. And what I loved about the church was the compassion, the inclusivity of the Bible. And yet what I couldn't understand, it just felt so inconsistent to me, right. That there were passages that I could understand as being this all merciful God. And then there was Job and this, you know, and then there were other passages that I couldn't make sense of, like, how can that ex. Exist and that exists?

[Chris Rye]

And.

[Brad Inglesby]

And I don't think I've ever got the answers. But I. You know what I always say to my uncle, and. And there's a great quote by a rabbi. I think it's Herschel. I may have mentioned it to you guys before, but he says I'm closest to God when I'm asking the questions, as opposed to when I think I know the answers. And that has been my journey is. I don't. I don't know. I don't have an answer. But there are so many things I love about the church and so many things that make no sense to me.

[Andy Greenwald]

And.

[Brad Inglesby]

And I think the older I get, you know, there's a distance between those things, but I feel like I'm always on the journey, and that's why I meet with my uncle all the time. So there were so many things about the church, Andy, that I loved. Oh, my God. This. There's a sense of kindness. Take the poorest among us and bring them in and care for them. And then there were other passages I would read and go, wait, but that doesn't seem like the same person, right? And that's the. And that's the magic and the torturous nature of the Bible. It's all interpretation. I could read a passage and think one thing, and it's actually a quote we used in Mayor. I think in the opening episode, the priest says, our idea of God, it tells us more about ourselves than it does about him. I think that's so true. Like, I want to believe that God is all merciful, and so that's how I think of it. But that, but. But I have a lot of friends and. And my father has a different view of things. And so it's just always really intrigued me. And there are so many things I love about it and so many things that still to this day make absolutely no sense to me. But I'm on the journey always, and I love to ask the questions. And I think in asking the questions, there's a reward there, you know, to keep it.

[Andy Greenwald]

If you did find the answer, would you. Would you announce it on the Watch podcast? Yeah. Could that be a Watch exclusive? I think that would be great for our numbers and our lives and our salvation.

[Chris Rye]

I don't mean to keep. Keep us in on God Corner, but I, you know, I wanted to mention to you that one of the things that early in the season we got an email from a viewer who talked about Richard Rohr to us in this. In this email. And, you know, I. I bought Falling Upward and started reading it and was obviously struck by the heavy use of the word task in the. In the opening passages of it. And frankly, like roar. Writing about storytelling. But also, you know, this idea of the. The two tasks in life and the Two halves of your life, I thought, served as, like, an incredible lens through which to view the series. I wanted to know if you could talk to me a little bit about Roar and whether or not that was kind of like a structural thing or was it just a reference? Because obviously a character brings it up.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I really know Roar. I really know his work, and it was recommended to me by my uncle. I really know his work through the universal Christ, which was my experience with roar. And I think I know what you're getting at. There's, like, the task of understanding your place.

[Chris Rye]

It's like you build up your identity and then you have to figure out what fills up your identity, like.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

What fills up your heart, basically.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yes, exactly. Well, you know, I think the reason we put Roar in there is because I. It's. It's. It's a conversation I've had with my uncle a number of times, is this idea of Christ as being almost like the love that exists between people. Right. And that's always really interested me. As, you know, as a kid, I was taught one thing. There's this.

[Andy Greenwald]

This.

[Brad Inglesby]

There's this guy in heaven who's waiting to judge you. The ultimate arbiter. Right. And what I found so appealing about ROAR was, wait a second. What if that's a very myopic way of viewing God? What if it's a much more inclusive, inclusive Christ? You know, and that. It's the. It's almost sort of the love force that exists between all these people. And I just found that to be such an interesting idea. And it's something that I've had many, many conversations about with my uncle. And I really think it's. It's sort of how he views God now. And he was raised in the church that believed, hey, if you sin, you go to confession and there's someone keeping track in heaven and you're going to have to face that person eventually. And so I've always been eager to learn about other ideas of God and see how it's. How it's. How it, I don't know, lines up with my ideas over the years. And so it wasn't that task was born out of roar. It was more that experience with roar, you know, was something I felt that Tom would have explored as a character, that. That I really felt like just given his identity as a priest. And I always thought he was a very inclusive and progressive priest. I felt like, oh, that's something that he would have read. He would have Read Richard Rohr, he would have listened to his things. And. And so it felt like it was in the zone of what Tom would listen to. And so that's why I put Roar in there. And so it wasn't as if Tas was born out of Roar, but it did feel. Feel like I felt strongly that Tom would know Roar's work and be. And be someone that read his books.

[Chris Rye]

I mean, it's. Either way, the best art is the art that makes you read other stuff and go look for other stuff. So I just thought it was really cool because the finale, to me, was as much about kids as it was about the characters that were having gunfights and going to jail. And you wind up at the end with Ethan, Emily, these very, like, obvious shots of these people, Sam and Maeve and the kids all starting kind of like a second half of their life in some ways. And I just thought it was really fascinating that even with, you know, Robbie going down and. And. And Lizzie going down and the dark hearts going down and Grasso's going to prison and all these people, but there is this, like, rebirth at the end of the episode.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah, well, I think that was like. I'm really glad you said it, because it was so important for me to have. It was really important to really give the kids a voice. And that was something that, like. And. And I can tell you there were many times just to give you a peek behind the curtain where I. I felt like, you know, we could have. In the edit, we could have gotten rid of some of those scenes, you know, that Emily with the guidance counselor and, you know, just. Just little scenes like Harper asking Maeve about the date. And there were so many little scenes that. That it. If I would have submitted the episode to hbo, they probably wouldn't have missed it. But I felt like if we're going to talk about the actions of the fathers, well, we have to give voice to the kids. That has to be a part of it. And they have to speak with honesty, and we have to see the impact these actions have on the kids. It's just so important. And so that was something really were constantly trying to keep in the show. So I'm really glad that resonated with you. And I thought one of the most meaningful scenes in the show was when Emily said, all I'm ever supposed to feel is gratitude. I'm never allowed to have an honest emotion. I'm just supposed to feel one thing all the time, and God forbid I feel something else. I'm not grateful anymore. And that was one scene that I really was. We have to keep this in the show. It speaks to what the show is really about. And I know the plot stuff needs to be there, but in the end, it's my hope that the aggregate of all these little things that we're trying to keep will have an impact at the end of the show. So we really, really, really wanted to keep the kids scenes in there.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think they're incredibly rewarding and they're incredibly important. And like, a moment ago, you talked about how you're torn between the prose of the investigation and the investigative beats and then the poetry of the deeper meaning. But let's make this a trinity. I don't know if you've ever heard of that arrangement of things before, but, like, I think the third piece is what you're talking about, which is that every time you set off on a journey as a writer, what I'm really responding to is that the car just swerves like a misaligned whatever towards more life. And I find that so rare in the way TV is made these days. Those scenes do get cut, and sometimes I feel like it's almost like it's like an extra course in a meal that, like, you can't help but introduce Sarah, the daughter, and, oh, we don't like her. Oh, but now she has a backstory, and now she has empathy, and now she has nuance, and now we. She's a part of the fabric of the show. Like, I think one of the most, if I may like Brad Beats of the finale is that the fucking magician kid is now babysitting. Like, it's. It feels good, you know, to see the depth of this. And I wonder. There's sort of like two parts, but you totally could have done it, wouldn't it?

[Brad Inglesby]

I know, but you get this.

[Chris Rye]

This lovely moment.

[Brad Inglesby]

Thank you, guys. That actually means a lot to me because I, like, there are battles we have, and I'm so. It makes my heart warm that you guys have picked up on the magician being their babysitter, but I just wonder.

[Andy Greenwald]

If in your writing, do you trace that to some innate curiosity, advice you were given once? Are you just a misaligned chassis that's driving off the road? Do you digress? In your office, like, giving us these, you know, writing back stories that even though we don't even see? I wonder how you calibrate that interest.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's always like, you know, one of the things I. That I like to say early in the process is why everyone needs to earn a seat at the table. Everyone needs to be here for a reason. And it can't just be a funny line or a funny scene like, if we're going to have Leo, he needs to pay off in some way. If we're going to have Sarah, she needs to pay off in some way. And so, and it's important to me that that payoff is unexpected. It's, you know, it's, oh, we thought you were one person. And then we learn a little bit more like you were saying, Andy, oh, we hate Sarah. She's so nasty in the second episode. Well, and we learn a little bit about her, we understand her a little bit more, and suddenly we look at her a little differently. And so I love just trying to. I love trying to understand or expect what an audience expects and then. And then subverting it in some way that isn't cheap, but subverting it in some way that feels earned and surprising. And it is important to me that at the end of the show I could make a case for every character having been in the show. Well, they weren't there just to give us a laugh. You know, it was like Leo was there to. And the reason I love Leo is because what I always said was important about him and why we fought to keep him was he lets us see Emily as a kid. Every other scene she's just with her.

[Chris Rye]

Looking, she's taking care of her dad.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah. Yes. And it's like she lets. He gives us access to what she might look like if she was a normal teen not dealing with all this crisis. She smiles, she giggles, she gets drunk, she throws up, she gets asked on a date. Like it allowed us the glimpse of side of her that is the what could have been if this family. And so I really want to be able to say at the end of the show, everyone had a reason. They all gave us something. And it's really important to me that I can say that at the end. And sometimes they do lose a bit in edit or, or the payoff isn't what you imagine. But I really try and I think it comes from a. A love of human beings. I really like. I really love these characters so much. And you know, I want more Leo. I wanted more scenes with Aaliyah, I wanted more scenes with Alice and Lizzie. And like, you know, ultimately I didn't get to have all those scenes, but if it was up to me, it would have been like 18 hour show and there would be scenes with Lizzie and Aaliyah hanging out and get to know each other, you know, I love that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I feel like you're. You're triggering. Chris. You keep saying more, Alice, and more. I'm watching him just bite his cheek. Chris, you just want to go ISO on this for a minute.

[Chris Rye]

I mean, she was just too beautiful for this world, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

She was too.

[Brad Inglesby]

It was.

[Chris Rye]

It is what it is. Like, you know, I don't think I could have handled it if she had found out Grosso was the mole, you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Know, but like Brad, legitimately, you have Emilia and you have Allison, and you have Fabian, and they are none of them. They're not just not from Delco. They're not from the United States of America. And yet these are three of the greatest. I don't even know the word. Inhabitations of people that we have all met or known that I've ever seen on the screen. The only question is how. And, yes, they are amazing actors, but if you could just talk about the initiation process, the hazing, the moment behind the monitors when you saw Alicent do that scene at the bar that Chris is now tearing up thinking about. It feels like some sort of wizardry.

[Brad Inglesby]

Well, listen, as you said, Andy, a lot of engagement, incredible talent there. But I think a couple things, and I think we talked a little bit about this when I was on the panel with you guys, is, you know, after we hire the actors, we immediately bring in the dialect coach, Suzanne, who they all know, and she's just wonderful. And so that process starts really, really early. And. And. And we usually identify one person or one voice, really, that an actor can attach to. And Amelia was able to. I forget her girl's name, but it was a woman from Ridley, and Allison had one, too. And the other thing I think is so important, guys, is, like, we shoot the show here. So Allison is here in Delco. She's driving around to bars. She's going with Fabian, and they're going to bars. And I think. I can't quantify how that. Know how much that means, but it means a lot. And so it's. It's a mix of incredible talent and, like. I mean. I mean, the crazy thing is, is that all three of them could speak in the Delco accent and for fab, like a South Philly thing. And then the minute you said cut, instantly go back to British, like, just. And that was Kate's gift, to just instantly go back. And I don't know if it's a part of their training, I. But it is. It is a gift. And, you know, I can Bring them into Delco. I can drive them to the bars or get them set up with people I have. But I think I. I just am always amazed that, you know, at. At the ability to switch on and off that quickly. I. I don't know. I mean, I. I love. I love them all.

[Chris Rye]

Well, now that he's come out of retirement, I would love to see Daniel Day Lewis in one of these shows, but not. Not turn the switch off, you know, and just be, like, walking around being a guy from Philly all day.

[Andy Greenwald]

Guy.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, I just. I'm just watching. Watching while you're answering, I'm just watching Chris. And I just feel like there's, like, the gears are turning that, like, there are intimacy coordinators now on, like, sexy movies. And, like, could there be a regional. Just, like, smoke one cigarette outside of Bad Brother like, once a week with these guys and, like, just to help keep them focused, you know?

[Brad Inglesby]

I got you, Chris. I got you covered, man. We're gonna bring you in the next.

[Chris Rye]

One, you know, we. This is a good, actually opportunity to ask you about this where, you know, it's a Philly show. It's broadly a Delco show. I think that when I've talked to people about this series or before it came out or when the trailer dropped, the one with. With GNR in it, like, there was this anticipation. At least I had this anticipation. Like, oh, this is gonna be, like, an urban thriller. Like, this is. We're gonna get. And it is pastoral, you know? Like, most of the. I would say second half of the season is in the woods, you know, and all of the most important moments happen in nature. Aaron's death, Sam's swimming lesson, you know, Robbie's quarry jump, and obviously the huge shootout up at the. At the summer home, the cabin. Like, that is an element of Philadelphia that I don't think people really know is that, like, you go down a block and you're in the middle of the forest. But could you talk a little bit about exploring the more rural parts? And then also working with Jeremiah and Sally, because I feel like they really leaned into the natural beauty of the city, but also, like, the poetry of, like, seeing wildlife, seeing foliage, seeing, like, all this stuff.

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah, so. So it's funny because I would always say, like, hey, it's a Delco show, not a Philly show. Like, I think, you know, I think there were, like, so many of these log lines I think were written, and it was like, it's Philly. And I was like, oh, boy. If people come into this thinking it's going to be like a urban thriller. Like you said, Chris, this is going to be a huge disappointment. But I always felt like, you know, again, it was born out of character, truly. I'll be honest and say I never really started saying I want to make a show about the woods in Delco. And in the same way, I never wanted to tell a story about vagrants in the fifth episode, it was born out of, oh, my uncle is an ex priest. He's a bird watcher now. Right. It starts with a character and grounding that character in. In. In a way I can understand. And then out of that character, only out of the character am I taking the themes and stretching them. And the same with Robbie. I felt like, okay, who is this guy? He's a trash man. He kind of lives out in the woods. Oh, he has a quarry he swam in with his brother. This was their place of heaven that's been snatched away from them that he's always trying to recreate in some way. And so it was only out of that idea, Chris, that all the wood stuff came into play. And I think I'm always operating out of. Out of a place of character. You know, again, I truly never said to myself, I want to. I want to make a show that's out in the woods. And it was like, where would Robbie go?

[Chris Rye]

That I believe?

[Brad Inglesby]

Oh, he'd have a little, like a little swimming hole where him and Cliff would go, oh, that's cool. Oh, it's a place of lost heaven. Well, that's where Aaron could die later. Right. And so everything is born out of. Of me trying to understand a character in a very granular way. And then only when I have that character in my head, then I'm stretching all these themes out. That's where the vagrant came from. Oh, what if Tom saw this bird? It wasn't supposed to be there. Oh, now I can use that as an entry point for him to bridge the gap between him and Robbie. And then I could use it again. And then it was the same with Robbie. Oh, I love this quarry. How can bring the quarry back? Oh, that's where he used to go with Billy. Oh, that's where Aaron goes to meet him. Right. And so I think when you're starting from a place of character, all those other elements kind of, it's like a snowball. They start to come into you, but it's all coming out of the character. You know, I rarely start from a place of, oh, I want to tell a story about this place. I always say I want to tell a story about this guy or this girl and then what's their life like and how do I use those things, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I do have a question about the place specifically because this was true in mayor as well. But it's something that I can kept noticing and thinking about while watching Task was you and Jeremiah and Sally's camera specifically really showcased the relative age of this part of the country. Right. Compared to certainly where, where. Where we live now in California and that the houses and the towns and the streets have a certain look that is almost unchanged. So like Ray and Shelly's house in California, that's like 1.2 million. Like that's a beautiful house. You know what I mean? Not that I've lived in California.

[Chris Rye]

Don't tell Shelly. She might have done some big stu place like Fentanyl.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just, just, just dress it up a little bit.

[Brad Inglesby]

Shelly.

[Andy Greenwald]

But yeah, just knock down these connecting walls and you've got to. But what's changed is the, you know, the to. To go back to the Richard War. The content of the vessel, right. Like the, like people are still yearning for community, still living in homes. But now there's fentanyl and now the middle class has been destroyed and there is a. Your camera doesn't flinch from showing that contrast. And you know, you in. I think you moved back home full time and you live there now. And so I wondered just what you feel or if you feel like a responsibility to this place, how to depict it and how you choose to depict it.

[Brad Inglesby]

100% Andy. It's, you know, it's, you know, honestly, people say, oh, did you have a, like a tough time doing a follow up to Mer? And I said yeah, because I'm telling another story about Delco. It's, it's not that I, I feel the, you know, there's obviously the burden of mayor, but also it's just a responsibility. I have to live here, I have to walk these streets, I have to, I have to bump into these people. So it's incredibly important to me. And I think what I, you know, truly what I, the most important thing to me when I write these stories about this place is that I hope the people here appreciate them. And I think what I'm always trying to do is give a, a voice to a very specific community of people that I don't think we often get to see on screen and to show the kind of the heroism of the day to day life here. What I always admire and it's really the character of Robbie is like, I just love this idea of he's living a life he never imagined, in some ways, hasn't asked for. But he's getting up every day. He's going to work really early in the morning. He's doing a job he doesn't love out of a sense of duty. And, like, I've always. That seems really simple, but I've always found that to be, like, incredibly heroic. Like, I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna tie my shoes. I'm gonna go to a job I don't love. I work with people I don't like. I'm gonna do something for the course of the. Over the course of the day, I really don't want to be doing. And I'm doing it because I love my wife or my kids, and I want them to have a better life, or at least a life that's a little bit. A little different. And, like, I've just always loved that idea. And I've always just. I've always found that simple idea incredibly heroic. And I've also always thought those lives are as complex as other lives that get depicted on screen. And I. I always want to try to try to give those lives the dreams and the fears, the anxieties and the complexity and the layering that I think they deserve. And so it's really important to me that I can. That I can give a speech here in Delaware county and not have, you know, and not get up and get, you know, in some way harassed or, like, I want people to feel proud of these shows. That is incredible. I think it's probably the most important thing to me. Truly, the most important thing to me is I want people to feel like I've honored this place and that the characters do justice to them. That's really important to me.

[Chris Rye]

I was wondering, you know, some of my favorite moments of this season of the series was moments that were unexplained or moments where I feel like you didn't overwrite it. And the thing that kind of haunted me was Aaron looking up at those kids partying up on the ledge. And obviously, like, it becomes a moment of, like, you know, I need these kids to recognize that I'm being attacked by Perry, so hopefully they'll hear me. But before that, it seems like she's remembering being with Billy and Robbie as a kid. And there are a bunch of moments like that where you don't have somebody go back and say, like, Sarah and Emily. Don't go right up, Tom. After the. The sort of sentencing Hearing and said say, well, what led you to that statement, dad? And how are you feeling about it now? Like, do you let these things breathe? But as a writer, is it hard to edit yourself? Or do you look to maybe cut and post and say, okay, like, this. This doesn't need this extra beat?

[Brad Inglesby]

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a. It's a great question, Chris. I think some of it is in editing and going, okay, I think we achieved it without having to say those things. But I also think some of it is like. Like, you know, setting yourself up in the. In. In the right way. Like, you were mentioning that scene with Aaron. Like, you're exactly right, that she's looking up and remembering a time that might have happened there and. And how much it's changed now. But I think so much of that emotion that you're.

[Andy Greenwald]

You.

[Brad Inglesby]

That you're so rightly getting out of that scene is that we laid in the backstory of these people. And if you've done the backstory and you understand how much Billy meant to her and to Robbie, and then you're able to get away with saying so little. And it's the same thing with Tom and his families. Like, it's. It's. It's the layering you do even before. Even before you bring the audience into the story. You know, like. Like, that's what I. I love about Task and Mayor is even before the story, even before you bring the audience in. So much of the story has happened, you know, in Mayor. Oh, well, it's. Dawn's daughter's been kidnapped. It's been a year. I haven't gotten any clues. The town that embraced me as a kid is turning against me. All that. That's already happened, and that's before we even jump into the story. And the same with Tom Brandis, even before we enter the story. Ethan's been in prison for, I think he says, like, you know, 12 months or something like that. And. And so I. You know, I think you can get those emotions if you've done the backstory and you've layered it in. And the interactions so far are packed with that. All that backstory and pain and trauma. So when you get to those moments. Moments. A look can say a whole lot, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, yes. And I completely agree with you. You do the work. We fall in love with these characters slowly and then, like, going broke then all at once. Right. And so that I don't even. So that suddenly Mark Ruffalo is making peanut butter. Right. In the case of certain. Certain cops, but so. So all of a sudden, Mark Ruffalo's making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and I don't know why I'm sobbing on my couch. Like, I don't know how you did that alchemy, but there is another example, just to bring this conversation back to the finale where you did lay down a marker, whether we knew was coming or not, in terms of how you set out to make the show. And at some point you must have realized, in order to pull off this thing, I'm gonna have to write this statement, I'm gonna have to write this speech for this actor, and it's going to have to anchor the entirety of the series. Let me step on your answer by saying, you fucking did it. Because that was awesome and it was incredible. And maybe, maybe I'm jet lagged and miss my kids, but that hit like a sledgehammer.

[Brad Inglesby]

Thank you, Andy. That means a lot to me, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

How did you prepare for it? Did you did it? Did you agonize? Did it flow? It's all heading towards a speech and you've backed yourself into that.

[Chris Rye]

Can I also just say, I always love the fact that. Fact that Tom reads it and doesn't have some prepared memorized monologue or pretend to throw away the statement and like, it's. He's a guy who would not be able to do a three minute monologue. Like, yes, did that.

[Brad Inglesby]

You know, that's.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well.

[Brad Inglesby]

And it's funny you say it, Chris. That's exactly what Mark said to me too. I would have. I would have written this down.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Brad Inglesby]

I said, oh, Yeah. I mean, 100%, you know, and so that was a decision we both made. I think it was. I mean, it was really hard, Andy, for all the reasons you said in that. You. As you said, I've been walking myself into a corner this whole time and now I have to pay it off. And I thought what was my way into it as a structure was that I wanted Tom to be. I felt like it was very important. It was important for him to acknowledge how hard it was first. That was the way that was my way in, was for him to be like, I'm going to tell you how incredibly hard it was. And I felt like because he was honest about that side of things and there were some really painful moments there. I didn't put the name tag on because I didn't want the parents to think I was Ethan's dad. And some of that was just reading testimonials from parents and snatching those things out. I Think there was another part of the speech where he says, the hardest part was the weekend. Weekend, weekend, or we had them on our own. We couldn't. We couldn't drop them off to anybody. And that was something that I read. And when I read it, I thought, oh, my God, of course, like, the weekend would be the scariest. All these parents are coming to pick their kids up and saying, it's Friday, guys, let's go home. And. And you. And then you get Mark Ruffalo going, holy shit, I gotta go home. Yeah, I gotta go home for two days. Like. And. And you read some of those things that just instantly hit you in a way where you go, oh, my God, that is like, I can never write anything that good that has to be experienced. And. And so I thought, for me, it was really important to be honest at the jump. And so that when he says. But there was also so much joy, that part he was able to resonate as well. And so I really thought, well, let's have him say how hard it was, and let's have him be really, really honest about the experience of being Ethan's dad. And we're going to get. And we're going to hear the truth in that side.

[Chris Rye]

So that.

[Brad Inglesby]

When he says, but it was also so beautiful that we also believe that equally. And that. And when I got that in my head, I felt like I could write the speech. And it was even longer on the page, if you can, because it's long in the show, but it was even longer on the page. But as you were getting at earlier, Chris, I felt like, well, let's do longer and let's get in the edit, and we'll see which pieces can be trimmed. And then you have an actor like Mark who's just so honest, who can get up and deliver a speech like that and be on camera for that long. And the whole scene's about him having to give this speech. And. But yeah, I felt like it was what the show was about, you know, that. That if I could. If I could. If I could ask myself, what is the show about? It's about a guy who can't let go of the anger that quite literally has to open the door to his house and let his son in. And that, to me, was what the. And that, to me, is what the show is about. So I had to land that plane in the last episode, and thank God I had Mark Ruffalo there to do it with me.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, the show taught us many things. I feel like we learned about Canadian real estate. We learned about how not to have your heart explode when you jump into a freezing quarry. The other thing that I did learn, I have to say, is I learned that task forces happen quite frequently. I mean, Grasso's whole, the whole, the whole betrayal is revealed because he was on another one. So inevitably, we have to ask you, is there a chance of another task force? I mean, they do get, they do happen, happen in the wild. We asked you this about Mayor, but we have to ask you again. Not even so much is HBO going to say, like, do more, but do you want to do more? Do you feel that there is more here?

[Brad Inglesby]

You know, I, you know, I, I do feel like I could tell another story of task I, I again. And I, I think it's as I was getting at earlier, it's less about the plot and me being excited to get to know another task force of people and getting to spend time with them and the, and getting to create new characters that I can go on a journey with. And the idea that, wait, I get to build another task force like Alison, Oliver and Fab and of course Ruffalo and Tucson and Martha. And the idea that I would get to bring them back is really exciting to me. And it's my dream to write these characters in this play. So if there was an appetite, like 100%, I would do it because it's my. As I was getting at her. It's why I get out of bed every day as a writer. I get to write characters. And this story specifically allows me to introduce another, like a completely new set of characters that we have to live with and experience a case with. And so that really gets me excited.

[Chris Rye]

Coming soon on hbo. Mother Club, the story of the dark hearts after they've been decimated by.

[Brad Inglesby]

I know they don't make it out too good here.

[Chris Rye]

No. Yeah, those guys. Because Vincent goes to. I don't even know what their, their leadership structure is like anymore. Brad, thank you so much for joining us, man. Thank you for this series. Thank you for, for Marianne, for. For Task because they've been really fun to talk about, really fun to interrogate. And even though Andy and I would have season tickets anyway because of where they're set, like, I think they're, they're some of our favorite television of the last few years.

[Brad Inglesby]

Oh, thank you, guys. I so appreciate you having me on the show, man.

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[Brad Inglesby]

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