‘Euphoria’ Season 3, Episode 4 and ‘Star Wars’ Streaming Numbers. Plus, Pitching Literary Classics as TV Shows.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Watch – ‘Euphoria’ Season 3, Episode 4 and ‘Star Wars’ Streaming Numbers. Plus, Pitching Literary Classics as TV Shows

Hosts: Chris Ryan & Andy Greenwald
Date: May 4, 2026
Podcast: The Watch (The Ringer)

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Episode Overview

Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald reconvene for a classic episode blending deep TV analysis, pop culture chatter, and playful creativity. This week, they break down Episode 4 of Euphoria Season 3 ("Kitty Likes to Dance"), dive into fascinating new Star Wars streaming data, and embark on a spirited brainstorm: How would they reboot 20th-century literary classics as premium TV? The conversation wanders, as always, through rich observations on storytelling, trends in media adaptation, and personal anecdotes — with quotes, moments, and analysis you won’t want to miss.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Euphoria Season 3, Episode 4: "Kitty Likes to Dance"

Timestamp: [46:57]–[73:19]

General Impressions

• Andy: "I thought this was the best episode of the season. It was the most engaging and also…the most cohesive as an episode of episodic television that was attempting to move multiple balls forward at the same time." [48:01]
• Both praise the structure of this episode—how character storylines are intersecting more organically, reminiscent of classic ensemble TV.

Standout Performance: Zendaya as Rue

• Chris: "She is playing this part and it feels like someone I know…It’s a really remarkable availability and like being, being open and being—yeah, it’s vulnerable, but it’s not like performative." [52:03]
• Andy: "One of the best definitions of good acting is being present and alive in any situation, moment to moment. And it is a masterclass in screen acting." [53:06–53:14]

The DEA Plot and Directional Style

• The pair break down the high-tension interrogation scene, Zendaya’s layered resignation, and how the direction is morphing Rue’s perception from club-glamour to harsh daylight.
• Chris: "Levinson does a little bit…he’s starting to d Michael Bay-ify Rue’s POV of her own life." [55:10]
• Andy: "There’s a filmmaker telling us what he wants to tell us emotionally on screen through what the camera is doing. But then there is the Rue storyline, in which not only is it giving space to have her performance…But then to your point, that’s when the direction comes over the top as the third heat." [60:59]

Side Plots: Cassie, Maddie, Nate, and Jules

• Chris likes how Cassie & Maddie’s heist-centric influencer subplot interestingly parallels traditional social mobility schemes with modern Instagram clout-seeking. [61:51]
• Andy is less engaged with Maddie’s character arc but appreciates moments where the show lampoons status chasing and the mechanics of influencer culture. [62:32]
• On Jules' baffling subplot: "I couldn’t tell, honestly…does what Jules does to the painting is like an artistic breakthrough for her?…Or where she’s just like, I’m gonna ruin this painting with red paint and then walk away?" [68:49]

Thematic Depth

• The hosts talk at length about the broader theme of young adults drifting post-high school, now grasping for identity and meaning in LA’s intimidating and exploitative landscape.
• Andy: "That idea of people who were special in high school one way or another, and then wanting to make it, and then what are the options of doing that?" [69:37]

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2. Star Wars Streaming Numbers and Franchise Future

Timestamp: [07:47]–[24:32]

New Data: What's Actually Popular?

• Disney/Nielsen’s data reveals Andor is the #1 most streamed Star Wars title—closely followed by legacy films, with the sequels notably absent from the Top 10. [08:35]
• Chris: "Andor remains number one even if you open it up to 1Q26…maybe people being like, wow, I guess it’s finally time to check out Andor." [09:32]
• Both hosts agree Andor’s accessibility (not requiring deep canon knowledge) and its critical acclaim have led to lasting, organic interest.

A Fading Empire?

• Andy: "I think they're in enormous trouble…my kids have zero interest in anything coming out of a galaxy far, far away." [13:44]
• Chris highlights the sharp generational split: Star Wars now appeals most to young children and older adults, with diminishing teen/young adult engagement. [14:09]

Franchise at a Crossroads

• Andy: "It’s in kind of a boomer bubble…The floor’s not that low…but it’s more of an indictment—it’s Star Trek. This is a reliable franchise you can continue to mine."
• They debate Disney’s strategy — should it maintain tight control to protect the IP, or loosen up and invite bolder new voices?
  • Andy: "Did they bring in the younger generation of people who didn’t grow up on it and give them a pathway towards it?…All these legacy franchises are starting to founder against those rocks." [17:38]
  • Chris: "I think Star Wars is not quite in danger of…but it faces the possibility of becoming classic literature…" [18:15]

Notable Moment

• Chris: "Can Star Wars make you feel this way?…Can Star Wars make you think about this?" [18:48]—discussing Andor and The Last Jedi’s attempts to transcend fan service.

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3. Literary Classics as Source Material: TV Adaptation Draft

Timestamp: [25:23]–[46:43]

Framing the Exercise

• Chris: "I have like a weird way into this project…classic literature as intellectual property, as debased as that is…" [07:43]
• Andy: "At no point did I look at the potential of adapting these books as an opportunity to recreate them in amber as they were…Which of these is ripe for some relevance?…Otherwise why would you do it?" [26:18]

Picked Titles & Creative Pairings

Chris’s Pitch: Henry James’ The Ambassadors

• Contemporary setting, showrun by Noah Baumbach.
• Casting: Noah Wyle as the uptight American, Chris Briney as the flourishing young man in Europe, Léa Seydoux as the enigmatic French woman.
• Chris: "...This is about Americans abroad…what that means in 2020-whenever…” [32:31]

Andy’s Pick: Appointment in Samarra (John O’Hara)

• Move setting to a Hudson Valley/Brooklyn suburb to reflect modern social climbing and malaise.
• Francesca Sloane (Mr. and Mrs. Smith) tapped as showrunner for a contemporary sheen and edge. [37:39]
• Chris and Andy both agree John O’Hara’s study of self-destruction, status, and conformity would feel timely again.

Wild Cards and "Executive" Assignments

• The Magus (John Fowles): Needs a Lynchian TV mind, suggested Amy Seimetz, possibly Tim Robinson or Zack Cregger.
• Day of the Locust (Nathanael West): Hollywood satire in the present day, with bold, surreal showrunners.
• The Secret Agent (Joseph Conrad): Reunite Soderbergh and Clive Owen for a dual-era, high-stakes drama.
• Multiple other rapid-fire assignments: Phoebe Waller-Bridge to House of Mirth; Joe Barton to Secret Agent; Sterling Harjo to The Moviegoer; Tracy Letts to Augie March, etc.

Notable Moment

• Andy on updating classic novels: "Everything contemporary. Do you understand? I do not have the budget or the discretion to greenlight period cars, period." [46:02]

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4. Personal Anecdotes: Weekends, Hardcore Shows, and Sports

Timestamp: [02:29]–[06:23], [73:48]–[78:19]

• Chris recounts an epic Saturday of Adam Scott’s "Hokum," Sixers winning a playoff series vs. Celtics (“First time since 1982!” [03:23]), and seeing hardcore band Basement ("Did you go in the pit?" "No…"). [03:42]
• Andy and Chris bond over their aging fanhood ("Did I ever have it? Question for another pod." [04:19])
• Sixers recent playoff success brings genuine joy and sports mourning.
  • "That is a legitimately beautiful sports moment…watching Joel Embiid get his entire body stretched out…" [73:51]
  • Andy: "I felt like the crater open inside of me as I was sitting down to watch game seven of how badly I wanted this." [75:24]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Classic literature as intellectual property, as debased as that is…" – Chris Ryan [07:43]
• "I think Star Wars…faces the possibility of becoming classic literature…stuck behind glass in a museum soon if they don’t do something drastic." – Chris Ryan [18:15]
• "The more dramatic and foolish it sounds…even Mandalorian and Grogu…is going to make half a billion dollars globally just by being Star Wars." – Andy Greenwald [15:44]
• "One of the best definitions of good acting is being present and alive in any situation, moment to moment." – Andy Greenwald on Zendaya [53:06]
• "Did I ever have it? A question for another pod." – Andy Greenwald (musing on mosh pit days) [04:19]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Banter / Weekend Recap: [01:42]–[07:43]
• Star Wars Streaming Data / Franchise Analysis: [07:47]–[24:32]
• Literary Adaptation Brainstorm: [25:23]–[46:43]
• Euphoria Season 3 Episode 4 Deep Dive: [46:57]–[73:19]
• Sixers Playoff Talk: [73:48]–[78:19]

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Tone & Language

• The conversation flows with the duo’s characteristic wit, gentle self-mockery, and passionate but approachable critical reasoning.
• Jokingly refer to themselves as industry “buyers” and “executives” when assigning titles, keeping things lively during the literary segment.
• Earnestly appreciative of good acting and risk-taking in mainstream franchises.
• Gently self-aware crossing generational/fandom divides—especially noticeable in Star Wars discussion.
• Maintain playful, insightful, and slightly wry tone throughout.

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Useful for...

• Fans wanting a "director’s commentary"-style breakdown of Euphoria S3E4
• Listeners curious about the state and direction of Star Wars on streaming
• Anyone interested in the adaptation process for classic literature to prestige TV
• Pop culture lovers who appreciate smart, funny, and highly informed banter

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For references, the Modern Library list of the Top 100 Novels of the 20th Century will be in the show notes, as promised by Chris.

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

Foreign. This episode of the Watch is presented to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime Same day Delivery has your back getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably. So you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. I need support staff to clear the

[Andy Greenwald]

room, Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, his pinky toe is a metaphor. It's Andy Green Waltz.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was a good Euphoria reference.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you, brother. Today we are going to talk about Euphoria episode four. We're going to talk a little bit in a roundabout way about Netflix's Lord of the Flies.

[Andy Greenwald]

For those not watching, you're doing the wind horse fingers.

[Chris Ryan]

Those boys are on an island. Why is that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Wait, what are they eating?

[Chris Ryan]

We're going to talk a little bit about Netflix's Lord of the Flies. Not the actual show, but the text elite and some things around that I had a fun little project for us to do on a. On a sleepy little manic Monday. You look great.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow, thanks.

[Chris Ryan]

One of one of my best weekends in a minute least one of the best Saturdays.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to talk to you about this. This is important. Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

[Chris Ryan]

Every once in a while, you know what, like I just stretch the arm out and I can still hit 90 on the gun. You know?

[Andy Greenwald]

God damn it, you're the best.

[Chris Ryan]

Saturday Adam Scott in Hokum, the movie. Pretty good.

[Andy Greenwald]

Meaning you saw the movie? Adam Scott didn't know, come to my

[Chris Ryan]

house and show me Hokum and then talk to me about severance.

[Andy Greenwald]

Approachable guy, though. It's.

[Chris Ryan]

He and I would have plenty to argue about in the REM Replacements Wars. Exactly. And then I went to go see some Sixers on my TV at my home.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're phrasing all this super weird.

[Chris Ryan]

I know. Hold on.

[Andy Greenwald]

You sound like Steve Carell at 40 year old Virgin talking about having a good time.

[Chris Ryan]

This is those bags of sand you.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you watch the Sixers?

[Chris Ryan]

I watched the Sixers beat the Celtics for the first time in a playoff series since 1982.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was un. It was surreal.

[Chris Ryan]

We're gonna talk about. I want to get into, like, everything about it. And then I went and saw the band Basement play in El Serino in basically a parking lot, and it ruled.

[Andy Greenwald]

So now do you go in the pit? Still?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I. Still no.

[Andy Greenwald]

Still.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't. First of all, like, there was. It was really funny. I saw a guy, like, before him, me and my buddy Jeremy were talking to his dude, and he was just like, I got two kids and.

[Andy Greenwald]

And they're in the pit somewhere.

[Chris Ryan]

No, he was just, like, being a dad, you know? And, like, he was really nice guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

And, like, sounds like me 40 minutes later.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I just watched that man get his head knocked off by a guy doing a somersault off the. Off the stage.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And he took that L and then just started screaming the lyrics back at Basement. And I was like, this guy's still got it. I have some semblance of it. You've got none of it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Zero. Did I ever have it? A question for another pod.

[Chris Ryan]

What's the most insane you've gone at a show?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, one time, Belle and Sebastian played a deep cut from Tiger Milk at Town hall. And I was seated already, because we all were. But when the violins hit. Yeah. Makes me take a deep breath, just like I did then. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Have a cup of mint tea.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh. For digestion. Yeah, sure. Sorry. I just got lost in memories.

[Chris Ryan]

So, yeah, that was what I got down with.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is why. I mean, there are many reasons why you're undisputed, AKA the King. But, like, we were texting, as we often do generally, but particularly during sporting events, but for such a momentous occasion, you were relatively understated and quiet during game seven. And I wasn't sure if it was nerves or if it was, you were busy and then I didn't hear from you for a minute and then I fired up the old Instagram machine and the stories from cr. It's always an adventure. Actually, no, it's rarely an adventure because almost invariably it's you being clever and charming on a podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I usually keep. Keep that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Unless life is for the living. Unless you've had the second modelo. And then he'll be like, here's a song by the band Karate that I'm listening to right now. And I'll be like, he's having a good night. Ye. But you posted a mosh pit in El Sereno.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was like, man, that's awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

It was a good weekend.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you feel good Sunday morning still? Yeah. Yeah, brother. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't really even get after it on Saturday night. You know, it was clean living. It was victories after victory after victory. I didn't feel the need to like,

[Andy Greenwald]

cloud it all up with a victory is winning. I was like, is Victory a new non alcoholic beer brand that you were crushing?

[Chris Ryan]

There's Victory Ale, isn't there?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but I think that's alcoholic. I was thinking of, like athletic or whatever that's called. John Mulaney's N A.

[Chris Ryan]

What's up with that? Is there a John Mulaney cocktail, like mocktail thing?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no, he is. I don't know if he's co owner, but he promotes a non alcoholic beer brand.

[Chris Ryan]

Good for him.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think so. Yeah. I like a little wheat soda now and again.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I have like a weird way into this project I wanted to do so today. Here's what's on the agenda. Lord of the Flies came out weirdly today. I don't really remember many Netflix shows dropping on Mondays, but here we are, four episodes written by Jack Thorne, who did adolescence. So I'm very excited to check it out. Although I would say, say if 100%, obviously would be the most excited I could possibly be to watch a show. I put this at about 70 just because Lord of the Flies is something I'm very familiar with.

[Andy Greenwald]

Obviously the early years of Grantland.

[Chris Ryan]

No, but you know, everybody, most people read Lord of the Flies at some point.

[Andy Greenwald]

You all talk about holding the con

[Chris Ryan]

between sixth and ninth grade. It's an introductory text when people are trying to teach you about characterization, foreshadowing metaphors, allegories, and not to hang out with boys unsupervised. It got me thinking a little bit about classic literature as intellectual property, as debased as that is and some of our bigger titles out there both, you know, the more sensational box office smashing things like Star wars, happy May 4th and literary classics that still hold some sort of market share of imagination for people where when they see Howard's End or this like they'll be like, sorry,

[Andy Greenwald]

I just leaned in. Yes, I'll check it out. So most alive I've been in weeks.

[Chris Ryan]

Something really funny happened as we were about to start recording as Hollywood Reporter published some numbers about Disney streaming in regards to Star Wars. And I just had this conversation with Sean. We did some Star wars rankings. This is going to come out on the big picture today, I believe. And we had a long conversation about the state of Star Wars. But I wanted to bounce a couple of things off of you because from this data and you can find it in the Hollywood Reporter.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is before we get into the classic literature.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I'm going to get there in a second because I think that these things come together. I hope. There's some numbers I wanted to talk to you about with the Star wars stuff. First of all, the number one, I guess how would you describe the they put out a top 10 most streamed Star wars title as of. Of 2020 25.

[Andy Greenwald]

They is Disney.

[Chris Ryan]

Disney, yeah. And well, Neil Nielsen. Nielsen and Andor is number one.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

Now that would make sense because. And or is sort of the freshest newest thing that they put out in some ways.

[Andy Greenwald]

And the only good thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. It's also the most critically acclaimed thing. So if people are looky lose with Disney plus subscriptions they might check out Andor you can watch Andor and not really know a lot about the sequels or the prequels or a bunch of other Star wars stuff. You can get into it without being a Star wars completist.

[Andy Greenwald]

You may not know the answer to this, but do you? Because I didn't see this article. Do you think Nielsen's numbers are skewed in any way in terms of dynamic engagement? Because I would have thought it wouldn't surprise me if Andor is up there just in terms of recency. And watching one probably means you're watching 16, which may add. Which may be a larger engagement number than everyone who has Disney watching Empire Strikes Back once, if that makes sense.

[Chris Ryan]

I do understand what you mean and I'm sure that there are reasons for all of this. There are a couple of interesting factoids that come out of it that Andor remains number one even if you open it up to 1Q26, which I suppose is also like maybe End of the year, hosanna's thrown at Andor and maybe people being like, wow, I guess it's finally time to check out Andor. In fact, Sean did check out the second season of Andor to, like, complete it and was blown away. And I was like, does he know

[Andy Greenwald]

that we liked it? He does.

[Chris Ryan]

He does. The other thing that was shocking about this list was how poorly. Not poorly. But there are no sequels in, you know, in like, the top ten here.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, seven, eight, nine. Not the previous.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, no Force Awakens, no Last Jedi. No. No Rise of Skywalker, which might have something to do with their recency, so people may feel less compelled to rewatch. We've done a couple of pods on the Big Picture recently about Star Wars. We did a Star wars draft and then a Star wars ranking. So I went back and rewatched some of the sequels, and I was struck by how they're very, very modern storytelling style of, like, constantly running into a room and trying to solve a puzzle. That's J.J. not quite.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Doesn't really lend itself to re watching. It's not a great observation. Not a lot of moments that I feel like they breathe. The Rian Johnson movie obviously has some of that. It's a. It's good. I. I really, really like the Last Jedi. There is a large sequence in it that I find unwatchable, which is the, like, Casino Resource Bizarre segment. But for the most part, like, you know, those. Those movies were enjoyable enough to watch in the theater, and I don't really feel super compelled to revisit them. I think those numbers kind of. They kind of pan out that way. Like, they. They support that. That idea.

[Andy Greenwald]

Generally, if you have children in America, probably including the guy who is concussed with the hardcore show, like, you have a Disney plus subscription for the child pacification purposes. Andor is something that mom and dad might want to dive into as a. As a perk. Yeah. If they have the service.

[Chris Ryan]

Here's where I want to go with this, though. Mandalorian and Grogu is coming out at the end of this month. Starfighter next year. These are like the two major Star wars things on the books.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, Kai clipped you talking about how you'll probably go see Mando and Grogu. And I did look at the. The first comment on it within, like an hour of it posting was someone wrote cr, please see it on opening day. And I was like, is this Josh demero's Burner? I just. It's just an incredible. And it's still I don't know why I'm surprised, but that is a wild level of specific fandom.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

They're like, you person on the Internet. You must support this franchise on opening day with your dollars.

[Chris Ryan]

There's not as much volume, obviously. Like, there was a point on this podcast where I felt like we had a Star wars news story to talk about every day.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know that was good for our numbers.

[Chris Ryan]

And there was trail to talk about and there was new shows to talk about, and obviously there was a little bit of like, fatigue with that. Aside From Ahsoka Season 2, I don't think I know of any TV series that they're currently working on.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, no second season of Acolyte, no second season of Skeleton Crew. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Andor is complete. So we're kind of at this weird crossroads with Star wars where I think they're going to see how viable Mandalorian is as an ongoing project. And they have finally ate the first new piece of like, here's some new characters. At knowing Star Wars, I'm sure that there will be echoes, if not actual straight up cameos from older characters. Here's what I want to talk to you about.

[Andy Greenwald]

You mean in Mando or in Starfighter? Starfighter, yeah, Starfighter. That's the hope. That's the new hope.

[Chris Ryan]

It is the new hope. How viable is this stuff at this point? Do you think the window is at all closing on let's revive Jedi Knight stuff? Let's bring back, like, the Skywalker name, like, or do you think that this is something that's just always going to be, like, in the background or foreground of culture, and they're always going to be, like, pumping something out?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think they're in enormous trouble. And I say that as someone who's worked inside the building. I say that as someone who engages with the content still, both in the podcast and as a fan. And I say that as someone who's the parent of two kids who have zero interest in anything coming out of a galaxy far, far away, like, cannot be bothered with any of it. Even, like, bespoke pieces of entertainment that, that. That might appeal to them or that might be culturally resonant.

[Chris Ryan]

They have demographic numbers on Mandalorian, and they said Mandalorian shockingly, like, the two most interested groups were people age 2 to 10 or people aged like 55 to 70. It was just like these two, like, old people who, like, used to watch gun smoke and babies.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, is it like the beginning of international football matches when they walk out holding hands with the Children just like, let' walk into the movie theater or that's actually what the movie's about.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Although we don't know how old Grogu really is. I think he's actually a contemporary of us.

[Chris Ryan]

You think he's in his late 40s?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think so, yeah. Can you tell? I mean, I think I have the same joyful attitude towards the world. It's tough for us to find a unique way to have the broader version of this conversation, which is that we, the things that we love and the things that we obsess over and the mechanisms with which we engage with them are wildly out of step. From the same answers to that question for a generation 20 years younger than us. The degree to which something like one Piece, which is, you know, manga and a Netflix show that I know nothing about and probably will never know anything about, but the degree to which that is the most popular franchise on planet Earth and dwarfs anything Star wars related in terms of active engagement and probably merch and all that. At this moment, I don't have merch because there's the theme parks, but. And legacy people buying that stuff. But. So when we talk about Star wars becoming relevant again, and we talk about it being like, oh, maybe they'll have an amazing TV show, or maybe there'll be a trilogy that resonates again, it's actually already, I think, in kind of a boomer bubble of like, for whom? And how big can it go? The. The floor, I don't think is that low because of the millions and tens of millions of people who will always love this stuff and give it a shot. The Floo or, and this is actually, I think, more of an indictment, as I say it out loud, is Star Trek in that this is a reliable franchise that you can continue to mine and there will always be a certain number of people who engage with it. Now I know how dramatic and foolish that sounds because even Mandalorian and Grogu, which is, as we discussed last week, likely not to set the global box office or the imagination of a generation on fire, is going to make half a billion dollars globally just by being Star Wars. Like, probably, maybe, yeah, million, 400 million. Like it's going to make a lot of money.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, well, I think the big question is, is it going to outperform Solo?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know. I wonder, though, if the tight, the terror, the white knuckle grip on the franchise that Disney has had and that the various stewards of it have had over the last 10 years may have been not fatal. But may have been like ruinously damaging to the franchise because what it may have done, and I'm not saying I would have argued for this, I don't even know how one would have done this. But if they had loosened the grip a little bit and they met with, when they say they met with everyone to make Star wars content, they did, like, sure. You know, I think it's now officially reported, like Vince Gilligan was in there. Like all the great creators of stuff that we like went in there for a meeting. Fincher, all these people have had serious, more than serious conversations about it. But did they bring in the younger generation of people who didn't grow up on it and give them a pathway towards it? You know, how do you keep it fresh, keep it new and keep it feeling like something that is vital? I don't know the answer to that. And I think all these legacy franchises are starting to founder against those rocks.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime's same day delivery has your back, getting you exactly what you need faster and reliably so that you can actually join in on the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. The reason I'm trying to make this connection between classic literature and Star wars is because I think Star wars is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I see what you're doing. Sorry it took me a second.

[Chris Ryan]

Not quite in danger of. But it faces the possibility of becoming classic literature when it comes to being. It's. It's going to be kind of stuck. Stuck in behind glass in a museum soon if they don't do something drastic. And I think Andor was drastic and Andor was a, you know, project that lasted, you know, in terms of like the actual creative act of. It was like a six, six year project or whatever.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I think, I think Tony says it's almost like a decade of his mind, but I think he puts Rogue One into that in there.

[Chris Ryan]

If you don't really look, I understand why they don't. Because it's like the bets are too big to not pay off, right? And you can't make a losing bet that then everybody walks away from the table permanently because of. You can't. You can't have them all be so, like, I'm so disappointed with what you've done that I don't want to experience that I'm not going to give you another chance. But the thing about Andor. And the thing about the Last Jedi was that it actually tried playing with different storytelling colors and painting with those colors and. And saying, like, can Star wars make you feel this way? Can Star wars make you think about this? Is Star wars just the frame, but the house can be different every time. What I think they decided was, no, that we don't like that experience. We need to make a replicable. Everybody comes in. We do the same thing. There's a kid, there's a. There's a master. There is. Then there is like a familiar story beats.

[Andy Greenwald]

You can go in and you can relax as opposed to. You can go to the theater and lean in. And I, you know, I don't even remember what the NDAs were, and I don't even think it's my place to say anything. But the project that I was lucky enough to work on with our friend Damon Lindelof and Justin Britt Gibson was about the act of a radical act within the expected hierarchy of a Star wars universe. Right. It was essentially running at the thing, both on a meta level. You could see what he was playing with, but also the characters were saying, why does it have to be this way?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it was super biased, I thought, very, very, very exciting. And, you know, in the fullness of time, like, I. Am I extremely disappointed that that didn't happen for personal, professional, and fandom reasons, hell yes. But to the point you're saying about, like, being a steward of this and the risks you take. I understand, but that felt like a big moment of a decisive moment.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I would love to get Bob Iger's version of the Steven Soderbergh pitch for Ben Solo, which in the vacuum of nobody from Disney really commenting on this, has kind of taken shape as. What was it? Who was the writer on it? Oh, it was. I think it was Jules Asner with. With Soderbergh.

[Andy Greenwald]

And.

[Chris Ryan]

And like Scott Burns or.

[Andy Greenwald]

I can't remember, it was one of his dudes. It was. It was Ed Solomon or Scott Burns. It was one of them.

[Chris Ryan]

It wasn't Ed Solomon. So it was probably Scott Burns. And, you know, this story has taken shape that Soderbergh was like Adam Driver was in. We had a really, really good idea that was rounding into form as a script if it never actually became the first draft. And the enthusiasm of Lucasfilm, most importantly,

[Andy Greenwald]

it Says along with writer Rebecca Blunt, that's Jules Asner. I believe that's Jules Asner.

[Chris Ryan]

And then it got to. Because Steven Soderbergh uses all these pseudonyms for different things, I believe Rebecca Blunt is Jules Asner.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is Emily Blunt also Jules Asner? No.

[Chris Ryan]

And then it gets up to Iger, and Iger is just like, you gotta be kidding me. Like, Ben Solo is de.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Now, I think what he really meant was, there's no way I'm reopening the can of worms. That was the toxic fandom that surrounded all of those characters. And after getting pilloried for bringing Palpatine back, I'm not now bringing Ben Solo back. That's my argument on behalf of Bob Iger. I'm happy to appear in public as his defendant.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great.

[Chris Ryan]

As his defense attorney.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what we do on the show. We give voice to the voice full. The people who have the loudest voices. We amplify those voices.

[Chris Ryan]

Who runs the Annenberg Center. But, you know, that is the. That is the perfect example of what we're talking about where, like, a really inventive filmmaker, a really interesting actor, a really cool idea, but would obviously be playing with, like, completely different tonal ideas than most Star wars stuff right now. And they're like, yeah, we're not making that bet, dude.

[Andy Greenwald]

One thing that we say when we talk about TV is we constantly hold up HBO and FX as being unique unicorns in terms of having an entrenched development power structure that has been working together and developing things for a long time. And one thing that is, I think, under discussed when we talk about the last five years of Star wars is the tumult of who's left holding the bag. Because this spans a time not only of a massive industry upheaval and industry repositioning in terms of where you're pouring the content money, TV streaming. Oh, no, we gotta get back to movies. But it's the Iger Czapek Iger era and The Iger era 2.0 contained within it one, the constant sense that Kathy Kennedy was going to be retiring at some point and stepping down and what the succession plan within her company was. But then also Iger stepping down, who was taking over his role and what that person would feel about it. So I do think that when you're talking about such a valuable property and the amount of time it takes to develop, produce, and release a film, you need five years of continuity to decide on a plan and then to be able to stick with the plan. The worst Case scenario would have been projects that Iger or, God forbid, Chapek had approved or the Cathy had approved. And then the incoming leadership structure is like, actually this. We think this is kind of whack. And then pull the plug on it. I think there was a cycle of that happening. I'm not saying I'm more optimistic about the next five years, but theoretically there will be consistency.

[Chris Ryan]

I just wonder whether or not, say, Mandalorian and Grogu does fine, but winds up being maybe slightly better performing than Solo, perhaps just because it doesn't have the cynicism around an Alden Ehrenreich type figure in it and doesn't have the chaos of switching directors mid shooting. So let's say it does okay. And then next year, just off of Project Hail Mary Vibes alone, Starfighter does pretty well, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

It very well may. I mean, also, let's throw this out there. What if it's good?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. I mean, it's entirely possible. But what I wonder is, like, if you guys. If there isn't like, a new story to tell on a franchise level where you're like, it's gonna take multiple films to complete the arc of what we're trying to do here. And we've introduced these new characters that are gonna change over the course of these movies. Like, does Star wars ess then become a very expensive modern version of things like Lord of the Flies where everybody just broadly, even if you haven't read it, probably knows it's kids marooned on an island. It's an allegory for society. One of them is named Piggy and he has glasses. Right. Like, I bet most people could probably dial that up, even if they haven't. If they don't remember William Golding's novel, you know, line for line.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

What stories that we sort of hold as central, like, of course. Well, this is canonical. We'll always have Star Wars.

[Andy Greenwald]

You sound like my dad are going

[Chris Ryan]

to in 20 years look like east of Eden or E.M. forster or what have you. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I think it's very possible. I think what's interesting, though, is that for the. So you suggested we do an exercise where we look at the. Whose list is it? It's the Modern Library, the MLA list of like, 100 greatest novels. And, like, thought about ones that were ripe for adaptation. But in so doing, I was like, at no point did I look at the potential of adapting these books as an opportunity to, like, recreate them in amber as they were. Like, what they Are you look at it. And it'll be fun to go into the list and think about it. And I was like, which of these is ripe for some relevance? Which of these is ripe for reimagining or some sort of modern take on it? Because otherwise why would you do it?

[Chris Ryan]

Right?

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, and, and so that, I mean, that's ongoing. Like, there's a, there's a, it's highly controversial in my household because the 2005 version is my daughter's favorite film. But Netflix has a Pride and Prejudice adaptation coming out next year.

[Chris Ryan]

Jack Loudon. Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jack Loudon and Emma Corrin and Olivia Colman. And. But like, so my question is, why? Not in a negative way, but show me why. I'm curious why.

[Chris Ryan]

But when you see, especially coming out of England, the, the maintenance, the classics maintenance that they do over there, where they're like, it's been 10 years, it's time for this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Totally.

[Chris Ryan]

Now, funnily enough, I went through a bunch of these books in the. So this is the Modern Library's list of the top 100 novels of the 20th century. So.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's a pretty fairly stodgy list, I would say.

[Chris Ryan]

Very, very much so. And so we're not in the 21st century. We're not talking about no country for Old Men.

[Andy Greenwald]

And so we're also not looking at the 20th century with a particularly non Harold Bloom 21st century view. There are a couple wildcards in there. Very few, but very few. And the sheer number of books that are about a guy finding himself in Africa was shocking. Like, genuinely, like, I didn't even know. I've read a bunch of these books, not even as a brag, but I didn't know. Even Saul Bello was like, what if this middle aged man found himself in

[Chris Ryan]

darkest Africa and they treated him as a prophet?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, like a lot of that. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But, you know, I was looking at this list and we'll put the list itself in the show notes. I can't even tell if I'm connecting the dots between the Modern Library 20th century novels and Star Wars.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think you got big brain from this weekend and I love it.

[Chris Ryan]

You're on this wave with me, though.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, this, this is like doing a podcast with the fourth square and the Vince McMahon meme.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what, it'll be funny if in 20 years you and I are doing this podcast at age 68 and we're like, what are some Star wars stories that could use a TV adaptation?

[Andy Greenwald]

That how you're going to talk?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Ever Since a guy fell on me at a basement show at age 58. Going through this list, some of these titles are so, I don't know, memorable. They're so present in my mind, even if I haven't even read them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That I. In my. In my head, I was like, there has to have been seven or eight Lord of the Flies adaptations.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right?

[Chris Ryan]

There's four on screen.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

There's a 60s movie, there is a foreign film. There's the 1990 movie, which is sort of, in my mind, the Balthazar Getty one, the one that I know of. And now there is this Jack Thorne adaptation, which, by the way, is getting wonderful reviews and sounds excellent. It just also sounds like it's very dutifully, like, captures what's on the page.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not to add too much to what may already be a creaky bit before getting into it, but I think that the more relevant comp in this is something else that I worked on, which is Harry Potter, which is. People are like, why? I'll explain it to you. It's about a wizard. You leaning in or out?

[Chris Ryan]

Literally at 50%.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. What if I told you he was a special little fellow?

[Chris Ryan]

Undecided voters, Janet Mills, Graham Platner, you're the one. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Many people. Many people. But this is not a strawman argument. Are like, why? Because the movies already exist. And I think there are many reasons for it. And hopefully the show will speak for itself. But that is more in the line of the. There isn't going to be a lot of iterating within the world or within the IP or within the space because the IP is very tightly controlled. So is it more along the lines of every 20 to 25 years we get a new Howard's End or we get a new sense and sensibility, but

[Chris Ryan]

what if every 15 years we get a new hope?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's beautifully done.

[Chris Ryan]

No, but like.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I'm saying, like, maybe if that's

[Chris Ryan]

what you guys want, if we all just want Luke and Leia, let's just get two new cool people to play them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And use new effects that we have.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who you got?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I'm not going to get into that game right now because I spent way too much time in James novels.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure. All right.

[Chris Ryan]

So Andy and I gave each other this little project to.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't do a lot of casting, a lot of showrunning, but okay, I. I did.

[Chris Ryan]

I did some casting. I. Hot out of the. The door. I have. I have my cast. But then hot out the door.

[Andy Greenwald]

Classic Baker's Talk gone.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel like I'm having a mild stroke because I keep replacing words. I like it cliche.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're like, I healthy living, brother. No. No ill effects from the hardcore show.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, I'll go first with an idea. So like I said, we are taking from the Modern Library's top 100 books of the 20th century and we're thinking about what of these old titles could use a fresh coat of paint. My number one draft pick here is Henry James's the Ambassadors.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look at you. By the way, we are covering the new episode of Euphoria in this pod and we are leading with Chris's imaginary adaptation of Henry James, the Ambassadors. So this SEO shit, don't put it on me anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

Show run by a man who has never run a show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great.

[Chris Ryan]

Named Noah Baumbach.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

This is a novel about a guy who. A widower, I believe. I can't camera if he's a widow or not. Lambert. I read it in college.

[Andy Greenwald]

Should we step down?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I don't want to. Because, yeah, he's a middle aged widower and his new fiance, who's pretty paid, is like, you got to go to Europe and find my ne' er do well son. So Lambert, the sort of main character, he's in his late 50s, this ne' er do well son is in his late 20s. And she's like, you gotta go to Europe. This is like 1903. Find my son, bring him back. He's gotta start working at the family factory, to running the family factory or whatever. He's gotta inherit his family kind of mantle here. So, you know, this American goes off to Europe and finds this young man and instead of finding a ne' er do well finds a guy who's blossoming. And then this man himself, the. The widower Lambert, blossoms himself and learns a lot about himself as he discovers, you know, new things about the old world.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is this in any way similar to when I started working at Spin in 1999 and you were still in Boston and you called me and you were like, how is it? And I'm like, it's pretty cool, man. And then you showed up and you were like, which one of us is

[Chris Ryan]

the ne' er do well younger son in this case? So I have Noah Baumbach making a series about. About these people. And I have it set in contemporary times because I think there's something really interesting to be done with America's perhaps diminished role in the world.

[Andy Greenwald]

Perhaps diminished.

[Chris Ryan]

To talk about Americans abroad and what, what that means in, in 2020, whatever whenever you want to set it, it said it. This 58 year old man. I'm mixed on this because I, I have an easy one which is Billy Crudup, who's done Noah Bombach work before, has led if, or appeared in several big series before. But Billy, credible. It's like if you're asking somebody to go from being straight lace to free Billy credits. We know he can be free. There's no surprise there. So what about, okay, if Dr. Robbie's sabbatical just lasts a little longer?

[Andy Greenwald]

See, I was wondering where the juice was coming from.

[Chris Ryan]

Where's Noah Wylie? Like, let's get Dr. Robbie on, on the bike to Europe.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is good. He would drown.

[Chris Ryan]

And when he goes over there, he finds this young man. And the young man should be played by, by the way, his name is Chad. He should be played by Chris Briney from Summer I turned pretty much just appeared in Hacks recently. Is obviously trying to like break out of like teen dream stuff. So let's put him in a Noah Baumbach.

[Andy Greenwald]

You had me. I'm doing the Jonas era now. Because here's the thing. When you started with this, I was leaning out. No offense.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I was like trying to get in the mindset of a contemporary buyer in this town.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I was not enough. You know, I can't say there's a lot of heat for the Baumbach vision right now in terms of like, well heeled takes age. Well, okay, But CAA is not saying, Noah, you've been mismanaged all this time. What you need to do is a Henry James is a Henry James adaptation. I think UTA could have managed that for him just fine. But when you start populating it with contemporary people that have a fan base who are people who are wanting to see their next step, this is why it's going to work.

[Chris Ryan]

One of the joys of this cast of characters is you've got a guy in late middle age, you've got a young man entering real adulthood that's played by Chris Briney. And then they're both equally sort of smitten with this late 30s French woman, Madame Viennette. And in this adaptation, she's played by Lea Seydoux.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, okay. Now, are you taking that meeting yourself? No, no, she's. Leah Bienvenue. I'd like to speak to you about some.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you, Henry James.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'd like to speak to you about some opportunities.

[Chris Ryan]

So that's, that's my.

[Andy Greenwald]

Have you heard Basement, I believe is the way you say the band's name.

[Chris Ryan]

That's my pitch for the episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's pretty sick. Yeah. How many episodes? Who are you trying to sell it to?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I'd love it to be six. And I do wonder whether or not Apple TV is the only one who'd be like, hmm. Although they actually like ongoing series more than one day.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's a second season. They find another younger ne' er do well a little bit further east and they go to like lots popping in Belarus in a lot of the shows we've been watching.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

You think about that.

[Chris Ryan]

You give me one.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't have a ton, so. Did you ever read the book Appointment in Samara?

[Chris Ryan]

I have this down too.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But this is like, let's chop it up. So this is John O'. Hara.

[Andy Greenwald]

John O', Hara, 1934 novel. Like, I read it recently. I don't know if you read it back in the day, but like the book that people, the book that everyone thinks Fitzgerald wrote, but actually they're thinking about Fitzgerald's life. This is that book. It's about like one night in a Pennsylvania suburb among us where a guy basically wildly circles the drain and drinks himself to death. It's a snapshot of a social class and culture and just ruinous mistake making.

[Chris Ryan]

This is what your friends and neighbors should be.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, this is right. This is right. And I think that when I. So it's in like Gibbsville, Pennsylvania, which, no disrespect to our neighboring towns from where we grew up. I think what would be interesting would be to put it in a place like Beacon, New York, or Maplewood, New Jersey, where the people.

[Chris Ryan]

Is John o' Hara out of Pennsylvania? Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, I can do what I want. He's dead. Sorry. But the reason being the idea of this like, well heeled but entrenched demimond, like, again, no disrespect to the great work Governor Shapiro's doing. Like, I don't know how much of that is in Pennsylvania right now. Whereas I think it's interesting to explore these towns of people who have left the city and are very pleased with themselves. Listen, I'm among them for like being able to now have a yard and neighbors and like, look, we're performing America, but we're being cool and maybe polyamorous or whatever.

[Chris Ryan]

In this house, we believe in Michael

[Andy Greenwald]

Clayton 1 million percent. You said it. Among those lawns. And then I. But then what was interesting, you actually helped me with this one. I don't know if you Had a different setup, but I was trying to think of who are our best interlocutors and examiners of long term relationships and the cracks that can appear in things. And first I was like, is this an opportunity to hire one of the savage Brits, like Jesse Armstrong or something? Or like one of the last great shows about marriage was the Americans. So I was like, would Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields come off the bench for this? But you gave me the right answer, which is Francesca sloan off of Mr. And Mrs. Smith. Because I think maybe, and I don't know how you feel about the project writ large, but I was excited about the chance to inject some youth into this.

[Chris Ryan]

Fairly stodgy because this is Matthew Weiner cult coded, you know, like it is very much, I think, Mad Men pulled from o'. Hara. You know.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right.

[Chris Ryan]

And Cheever and a lot of these. These sort of like poets of middle aged alcoholism.

[Andy Greenwald]

Malays.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that's really cool. Any ideas of, like, who could play the main character?

[Andy Greenwald]

Who's the guy from Christopher Briney? You want to cast him again? Should we put him in all of these?

[Chris Ryan]

You know what? My next one was the Magus by John Fowles. And it wouldn't be bad if he had an English accent as a grad student teaching English in Greece, who comes under the spell of an eccentric rich man and plays a series of games with him where it makes him question reality. And there's a lot of stuff about World War II in there. I need a. I need a Lynchian showrunner. I need not Lynchian that runs the show like David lynch, but someone capable of atmosphere and dream worlds.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have a piggyback for that. So who I think would be the right showrunners for this? Okay, so I picked Day of the Locust Nathaniel west book about being down and out in Los Angeles. And turns out there's a magnet that attracts all the evil people here as Sam Levinson.

[Chris Ryan]

Wait a second. Let me back up for a second. Appointment in Samara. Are you updating that? Are you, like, is it contemporary times? So for the Magus, you could get into a lot of things about how the digital world makes us not really understand what's real and what's not. So for your. For your Nathaniel west adaptation?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Would that be current?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I think. I'm not interested in period pieces, brother. Like, I'm a buyer right now. You know what I mean? Like, I'm trying TO program for 2028, 2029, assuming we can I get Budapest

[Chris Ryan]

to Look like Gibbsville. Can't.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I afford to gas up the Quixote trucks to get them anywhere in 2029? Probably not. So, yeah, Hollywood is hard. Hollywood is difficult. Hollywood is a nightmare place, et cetera, et cetera. A tale told many times, often. Well, but the main thing. So my first thought was, like, Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg are kind of doing this with the studio, and I'm curious if they have a desire to play with a different gear. And I kind of don't think they do because they have been slightly like Preacher and the Boys. Other things they produced have flirted with topicality, but they do like heads exploding. The single most David lynch creator working today is my guy, Tim Robinson.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think you should leave the chair company. Tim Robinson and Zach Canaan should do Day of the Locust. I think they should do the Magus. I think they should just expand their footprint in this town.

[Chris Ryan]

I had Amy Seibitz.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, good.

[Chris Ryan]

Who obviously had a negative experience working on the Idol, where she was replaced midstream by Sam Levinson.

[Andy Greenwald]

Lucky. I had a negative experience working on

[Chris Ryan]

the Idol too, and I had to

[Andy Greenwald]

do the whole thing.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, is currently on the Testaments, but hasn't directed tv, if I'm. Well, she does lots of TV directing. I mean, she did episodes of Atlanta and stuff like that. But I would love to put her in charge of something like this, and I think that the material would suit her in a lot of ways.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's good.

[Chris Ryan]

I have one more throw at you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hit me.

[Chris Ryan]

This is a pretty good layup. It's the Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad.

[Andy Greenwald]

I had that, too.

[Chris Ryan]

So this is a story about a relatively successful London businessman.

[Andy Greenwald]

Genuinely tell the story. This is the most ripe for adaptation and for reinvention and for updating, I

[Chris Ryan]

would think, of the whole list. It's about a guy who's a business owner in London, who is, in fact, a spy on behalf of what is supposed to be Russia, essentially. But it's unnamed. Yeah. And it jumps around a lot chronologically in the novel, around a bombing. And you could do it now, you could do it then if you wanted to. But one of the great unrealized projects is the prospective third season of the Nick. Whoa.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look what you're doing.

[Chris Ryan]

Remember when he was like, it's just going to be the hospital, but it's jumping ahead like 50 years. And wasn't Barry Jenkins or somebody going to direct it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. The idea was that the real star of the Nick, kind of like with er, after many years, the Real star of the Nick was the hospital.

[Chris Ryan]

The Nick.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that while Steven Soderbergh, who directed every episode, and Clive Owen, who was the star, may recede from view, someone else could pick up the mantle and tell the story of the same hospital in a different era of New York. And there were versions of it where. Oh, my God, why am I blanking on my beloved actor's name?

[Chris Ryan]

Andre Holland.

[Andy Greenwald]

Andre Holland was going to continue playing the part that he played so brilliantly. And there was talk that Barry Jenkins was going to get involved. Going to jump forward 20 years.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I have the idea of. Of reuniting Soderberg and Clyen on this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Nice.

[Chris Ryan]

But I wonder whether or not you do. One half of it is the, you know, basically turn of the century tale, and the other is like, modern times. This is good, but it's like maybe two different directors shooting the same actors or it's like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So to work shooting both, but you're dressing because, you know, you could shoot London. There's parts of London that do look exactly like it did in the beginning of the 20th century.

[Andy Greenwald]

And there are at least two people in this room who'd be willing to scout it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

No need to name names.

[Chris Ryan]

Honestly, there's probably five people in this room that would scout.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's quite possible. So you get Soderbergh and Owen in the past, and you get Briney and Zack Kreger or one of your other kids that you like in the. He's our age, isn't he? Like, in the present day, we are

[Chris Ryan]

not Chris Briney's age.

[Andy Greenwald]

No. Isn't Zach Kreger more of our contemporary?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. But still younger than us.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, so is everyone. But I just mean, like, he's.

[Chris Ryan]

A couple other ideas that I had, like Naked and the Dead, the Norman mailer, World War II novel. I just. Let's make World War II stuff and equally a bummer with Appointment in Samara would be An American Tragedy, the Theodore Dreiser 1925 novel. But, yeah, like, it would be pretty bleak to do American Tragedy. It's kind of in the name.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. What if it was Ryan Murphy's American Tragedy?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sells itself, dude. All right, I'm just gonna assign a few more works to showrunners where you don't even have to talk about it.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Secret Agent. I had also want to give it to my friend, Joe Barton. Black Doves.

[Chris Ryan]

Your personal friend.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I'm giving it to him because he makes good television, but he's Also a lovely guy. And look, spurs are struggling this season.

[Chris Ryan]

It's all a network.

[Andy Greenwald]

So this is how we're. Yeah, you're here pitching, like, more World War II content, and they're like, we will not be validating your parking. I'm trying to make this stuff happen. You know what I mean? I got kids to feed. Walker Percy's the moviegoer.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sterling Harjo. Go take it.

[Chris Ryan]

Interesting.

[Andy Greenwald]

See what you want to do with it. A nice walking around, ambling kind of vibe.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Edith Wharton's House of Mirth.

[Chris Ryan]

They mirth it up, though, don't they?

[Andy Greenwald]

They're constantly mirthing. However, Phoebe Waller Bridge should be making something like that, not Tomb Raider. You know what? Bring your. What does she.

[Chris Ryan]

Why can't she do both?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I'm saying. You know who else could do it? Sophie, what's her name could do it with her.

[Chris Ryan]

Sophie Turner.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sophie Turner could do it with her. Like, they could do both shows simultaneously.

[Chris Ryan]

Happens all the time.

[Andy Greenwald]

Happens all the time. Quite easy. Everything's being made in London anyway. And then finally, Saul Bellow's Adventures of Augie March. I think we just hand it to. Speaking of. This is all. It's all about who you know. So I think we give that to our friend and listener Tracy Letts and the Steppenwolf Players and be like, go

[Chris Ryan]

make your Chicago cars a contemporary, Augie Marsh. Okay?

[Andy Greenwald]

Everything contemporary. Do you understand? I do not have the budget or the discretion to greenlight period cars, period. Ps. Every car in it, by the way, is going to be one of those, like, vinfast, one of those, like, it's an electric car company owned by Saudi Arabia, maybe, that you see on the road. Now they're sponsoring it.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't wait till you get your byd. The Chinese electric cars.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And everybody's like, when are we gonna get Those? They're like $20.

[Andy Greenwald]

Listen, I hear gas prices are problematic right now. Couldn't be me. Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull, Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer.

[Chris Ryan]

You tell yourself no one wants your college era band tees, but on Depop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on Depop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money making machine? Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop. Where taste recognizes taste. Let's talk about Euphoria. Kitty Likes to Dance is the episode. It's episode four of this third season. We've seen stuff online now about this not being the last season of Euphoria. I would imagine if in any shape or form this show goes on, it's not going to be with the same actors, or at least not all of them. I think this is going to be the end of this group of characters together. This high school class has moved on. I say that without having watched ahead. I just don't know where you would take them in their 30s or whatever. How did you feel about this midpoint episode?

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought this was the best episode of the season. I thought it was the most engaging and I thought it was. Also, I feel like this is sort of my default role because again, I can't speak to the arc of the series as a whole. But this felt the most cohesive as a episode of episodic television that was attempting to move multiple balls forward at the same time.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, the cross cutting was noted.

[Andy Greenwald]

The cross cutting was notable. And also tonally, the stories fit better together. And there were moments like when Rue visits the Melrose Place esque apartment building where all the characters are now living. What I was like, oh, this is what characters do on ensemble television shows.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Their storylines intersect with each other, inexplicably live together, and they share the screen sometimes. Or one person's problems in this case is Rue's desire to find another person to sell her hard drugs would maybe bring her in contact with characters who are in the midst of their own storylines. Like Maddie photographing Cassie with a leaf blower. Yeah. So I do have positive things to say about this episode. I also want to say, and I'm curious if Kaya wants to weigh on in this as well. This morning when I was driving the girls to school, I mentioned that I'd be talking about the show today. And my older daughter said, oh, I know everything that's going on on that show. And I said, really? I don't think that's a good idea. And she said, bro, this is what they say. There are so many fan edits right now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And she said. And then I was like, really? You know what's going on this season? And she said, some marriages weren't meant to last.

[Chris Ryan]

That's one way of looking at it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Less than 12 hours after this episode ends. She also said that he, meaning Nate, treated Maddie unkindly.

[Chris Ryan]

It's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I was like, you now know more about the canonical arc of this show than I did.

[Chris Ryan]

She's watching TikTok fan edits of Euphoria. Does it have, like, anything from the Silver Slipper in it? Like, are they.

[Andy Greenwald]

Here's how I know the answer is no. Because I was saying something about, like, rated PG Euphoria. No. She's like, I heard last night was about dancing. You know, people like doing it. And I was like, that's what it's about. No, I say, I was saying something about how. And I'll say it again on this podcast, how amazing Zendaya is in the show. And I was. Something that I was talking about. I don't know, maybe I said something about there's a scene where she's driving or something. She's really. She's just so alive in every moment, even when she's driving or something. And my daughter said, she shouldn't be driving. She's a drug addict. And I said, no, she's not. She is currently a DEA informant trying to snitch on two competing drug gangs who are heading for a massive violent war. And she said, oh, I didn't see any of that. So thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

Google's age setting also, like, what's the deal? Dea.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great. Hold on, I gotta make a quick phone call. So. So that's where we are with the culture.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk about the Rue part first, because, you know, you can. You can sort of split this show into different buckets because they aren't always coming all together. Right? Like, there is, like, brief moment where Cassie, Lexi, Maddie and Rue share the screen. There isn't a ton of interaction between Zendaya and the other actors. Like, there it is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Similar to, like, Industry Season four, Episode two, where you might watch that episode and be like, that one guy's not talking to any other characters. We won't spoil it too much.

[Chris Ryan]

But, yeah, she's just extraordinary, man. Like, I. I'm trying to think of a. Every week coming up with a different description of her. And it's really been, I guess, at the forefront of my mind just because she's so incredible in the drama. So she's really. I've been watching her on screen pretty much all year now. And the, the scene with the two DEA agents in the interrogation room as they kind of play her with being like, all we found was like a joint in the car.

[Andy Greenwald]

So good.

[Chris Ryan]

Her resignation, both when the dog, the drug sniffing dog starts barking and then when they're like, you're fucking going to prison for the rest of your life unless you help us, is so, I don't know, it's just so approachable. Like she. For somebody who's so famous and so kind of larger than life, she is playing this part and it feels like someone I, I know. Like, it feels like someone I see at coffee shops. It feels like somebody I've been at bars with. And it, it's. It's a really remarkable availability and like being, being open and being. Yeah, it's vulnerable. Yeah. But it's not like performatively like I, I'm dirty, you know, or anything like that. It's like really present. And she does movie star all. Every episode. She does like her blood splattered face and her eyes moving from the safe to the guys holding the gun on Big Eddie. It's just like that's how she's her.

[Andy Greenwald]

One of the best definitions of, of good acting is being present and alive in any situation, moment to moment.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it is a masterclass in screen acting. Like I, maybe she's great on stage two. I wouldn't doubt that she can do anything. But the way that she can be so outrageously, exquisitely, intricately alive every second that the camera is on her where she's showing us something, she's showing us thought process. She's showing emotion, she's showing history. That as I keep saying, I'm not, I don't know her history, but I can read enough of it emotionally on her face to be engaged by it. It's astonishing. And that scene, I mean the first 10 minutes of the episode absolutely rip, because that's what it's about. And she elevates everything. Yes. But I'm not withholding flowers because that scene in the interrogation room, the way it's lit, the way it's shot, the way those two dudes are those specific two dudes. One who is also meeting her with his presence and the other one is basically dead face. Which is a choice, you know, because there's other kinds of good screen acting. Like I was thinking about why I like Marty supreme so much. And one of the things that Josh Safdie's so good at is non professional actors who are not necessarily vibrant and alive and processing no, they just look like real people and they behave like real people minute to minute. So you're like, I'm seeing someone. So it's like we're praising people who I see that they are acting or I see that they are not acting. And when you get the right recipe of those two things together, it's something else.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. That whole exchange in the interrogation room

[Andy Greenwald]

where, you know, it was funny, it was well written.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Like, have you been to Mexico? Is it nice? And he's like, some parts nice and all that stuff of like, if I've been to the moon. If you asked me if I've been to the moon. And I was like, hell no. And they were like, I have a picture of you on the moon. It's like, no, you don't, because I've never been. And that's not how you're answering the Mexico question. I love, I love that sequence. Her, I think, after she gets out of that interrogation room. One thing I noticed that Levinson does a little bit is he's starting to d Michael Bay ify ruse POV of her own life.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, that's right.

[Chris Ryan]

Because for a couple of weeks there, you know, it's basically been like Hype Williams videos inside of like the. And I mean, that is a giant compliment inside of the Silver Slipper. And it's starting to get a little bit more daylight and a little bit more overhead fluorescent lighting and a little bit more like this person's waking up. Not necessarily like she wasn't aware of what she was doing, but sexual violence

[Andy Greenwald]

on a cc, black and white cctv.

[Chris Ryan]

But it's the, it's the series of events that leads up to that. It's like she's. She knows that she's now got a snitch jacket. She's in this card game and she knows Alamo is looking at her in a different kind of way. And she either has to like pretend to be falling off the wagon or try to obscure the fact that she's like running a game on him. And obviously, obviously Bishop is starting to

[Andy Greenwald]

notice that Darrell Burt Gibson is phenomenal in this episode. He's been great the whole season.

[Chris Ryan]

He's fantastic.

[Andy Greenwald]

But his non verbal performance in that scene and across this episode, he's building something, you know, that could be in lesser hands, could just be a cliched or recognizable architect.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, you would have. He's like, oh, I've got. I've seen this guy, like sort of idiosyncratic. Hitman is somebody who's been in movies and TV shows for 30 years now since Pulp Fiction. And then you get to that CCTV footage of Kitty, of Kitty with basically being assaulted.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Kitty is played by an actress who's the sister of the lead of your show, Tell me Lies.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not my show, but yes, I've watched it. It's Grace Van Patten's sister.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, yeah. That's not your show.

[Chris Ryan]

I like it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

It was just, we're, we're, we're really saying like, it's like I don't take possession of it. You know what I mean? It's a, it's a show for everybody.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're like Leah again, I welcome. How was the flight from Paris? What is my vision for the ambassadors? I'd like you to watch the show of mine, Tell me Lies.

[Chris Ryan]

And then, yes, by the end, you know, covered in blood, sitting next to

[Andy Greenwald]

Rosalia as one is.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Rosalia. Like, this is a much bigger part than I thought it was going to be. It's also like fantastic. She plays magic, the girl with the neck brace.

[Andy Greenwald]

But also it's like, I don't know, I mean, I, again, I don't frequent many silver slippers. Silver's Slipper strip clubs. I don't know how many Catalan exotic dancers there are in the Southland. Maybe it's a thing. Maybe it's like, you know, it's like, it's like a pipeline. Yeah. The way like Beef taught me that you should look for the Filipino nurses. Like, maybe you should look for, you know, Spanish separatist strippers. I am fascinated if one day the story is written about like, yeah, we got Rosalia on the show because we are filming the entire Silver Slipper sequence in seven days. Do you know what I mean? Because I don't think she was there for like a 10 month block shoot.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, if you just do magic stuff, I wonder if it's just a couple of days. But you're right, I mean, now she's sort of getting a bigger part because she's a little bit more partnered with Ru against all odds.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm also so broken brained about the show that I did start noticing things like, like Rosalia is in a scene at the Silver Slipper when all she's required to do is have Rue walk past her on the way to the office. And I was like, well, okay, that's not a good wife situation. No, she was there that day to film that one walk by and she didn't need to be.

[Chris Ryan]

And then the episode ends. The rue part of the episode Ends with the reveal that the getaway driver. There's a robbery at the Silver Slipper. It's pretty obviously Laurie's guys to viewers, but for the characters, they're not so sure until they see phase signature. Very plump lips. You're right. This was the most TV satisfying TV episode of the season. And I thought it was the one where it was like, okay, now we've left the garage and now a story is developing.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think generally the reason why I've responded to the RU storyline this season isn't just because it's anchored by Zendaya's performance. It's because in those scenes, I can feel a filmmaker having fun with convention and with tropes and cliches in a way that feels active and engaged. Like, you mentioned Tarantino. And some of it can feel like Tarantino light, but when it's edited so well, like the card game was, and everyone's giving it their best and there's these little, just. There's an edge to it. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But even, like the shot of her as she's sort of watching behind the glass.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

As Eddie starts to negotiate with the group of guys like, that they're gonna have sex with with Kitty, it's like it's starting to look more and more dark and nefarious.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is the thing I. I want to like. I. I think it takes me a while. Generally, I am. I'm more drawn towards things that are, you know, interior or written in a different way than things that are told predominantly through the cinematography and the camera work and the direction, for lack of a better word. And so some of the episode and some of the storylines have left me cold because the real passion is in the camera movement. And there was a lot of camera movement in this episode, and some of it was quite striking. And I appreciate the technical difficulty of that. And I also appreciate the fact that there's a filmmaker telling us what he wants to tell us emotionally on screen through what the camera is doing. But then there is the Rue storyline, in which not only is it giving space to have her performance, to elevate it, to give space to the writing, to be a little bit crackly and fun and surprising. But then to your point, that's when the direction comes over the top as the third heat to also surprise us with how we feel about what we are seeing. It's such a smart observation about a show that I'm often too quick to discredit that her experience of the strip club is an aesthetic choice that is now changing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, And I think that in the hands of another filmmaker, they might just be like, we've settled on a look for the strip club.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And it's cool. We've lit it this way.

[Chris Ryan]

And now it's like, no, this is. This is a place they'll give you migraines. Everybody hears on ketamine, sexual assault is pretty common. People are probably being human trafficked. Like, this is hell, you know? And this guy Alamo is not a cool pimp reading history books like, he's a menacing, malevolent force. And I think we're starting to, like, that stuff is all starting to merge. I actually also thought, call me crazy, that the Cassie Maddie stuff was equally compelling on, like, a heist level where they're going into an influencer's home to essentially stage a moment that's going to break Cassie wide in the world of influencers and only fans.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And the orchestration of that and Maddie being like, you have to, like, get noticed. Get into bed with him or get him at the precipice of getting into bed, but do not him.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And the. The sort of, like, comic sight gag of, like, no, do coke out of my belly button. No, do coke out of my belly button was, like, pretty funny.

[Andy Greenwald]

Could you imagine that same setup in the Ambassadors if we could get there with Henry James?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, Europe. Europe is a playground, my man. You know? And that was the girl who. The girl that she goes upstairs with is the girl that Maddie was originally managing at the beginning of the season. So. So it's all coming together again.

[Andy Greenwald]

That worked less for me because I am less compelled by coming in cold. Maddie and Cassie generally. And I was confused by Maddie's shifting status in that it seems like she's kind of a hanger on who's struggling. And yet she plays this entire party like it's Stradivarius, and her presence in it is understood, is respected. She's able to maneuver people, and maybe she's a master manipulator.

[Chris Ryan]

She's everybody who she needs.

[Andy Greenwald]

And now that's convenient for the story. But that seemed confusing for the version of the person that had been introduced to me two weeks ago that said, this sounds crazy, but, like, what you just sketched out that the way to do a heist on status and attention

[Chris Ryan]

would revolve around payoff is the notifications.

[Andy Greenwald]

Camera phones, notifications, social media, hard drugs, Hollywood Hills parties. Like, that is a war Euphoria was designed to win. Like, this is the new class battleship that we want unblocking this Particular strait. Am I losing the metaphor? No, I just mean that, like, even from a distance, my perception of what the show was doing, that separate. Apart from the quality of it, that it was effective at Washington as engaging with contemporary culture.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And contemporary fame, economy or young life. Like this. This is. These are the ones we want on this.

[Chris Ryan]

And, you know, for as much as people have questioned how he is depicting Sydney Sweeney and to what extent she's in on the joke.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And what the joke is necessarily.

[Andy Greenwald]

And what is a joke.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought it was pretty funny to have Sydney Sweeney show up at a party and everybody be like, she's the new. The new kid in town at this, like, influencer party, basically. And there are, like, people eyeballing her, but she's gotta, like, do the Footloose dance to get everybody's attention. Yeah. Up on stage. I like the way that they are playing with her public Persona. So I suppose the less successful elements of this episode for me personally were the Jules and Nate stuff. Nate. Just because I can't help but watch the show somewhat from your POV at this point and wonder whether or not how cr. If you understand, like, Nate saying at this zoning meeting, you know, you know,

[Andy Greenwald]

I. I was interested at that point.

[Chris Ryan]

But if Nate not being able to build leads him back to dark Nate, it's going to be really funny. And it's a. Quite an interesting commentary on the state

[Andy Greenwald]

of Los Angeles and why we can't build things anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

When he's begging the guy and saying, like, I'm trying to be good, I'm trying to be good, trying to do good thing. That is because he has done so many bad things.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I didn't know that. But my daughter did tell me about that this morning.

[Chris Ryan]

Did she tell you any of the details of his nefarious deeds?

[Andy Greenwald]

No. Apparently he was a bad guy, she said, and maybe an abusive guy, for sure. But that's the extent of it. Yeah. Now maybe I need to have a more serious talk with her to unpack some of this, but also so she can help me out with my coverage of the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, yeah, I don't. That is the storyline that is clearly the most beholden to past baggage. And not just the beautiful Barbie Dreamhouse luggage set that Cassie threw from one floor of the house to the other in her grand escape.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, yeah, I agree with you. I continue to think that some of the best filmmaking is in the Nate and no longer Cassie stuff, just the colors and the framing and the lighting. But I am uninterested he is in

[Chris Ryan]

a similar situation to Rue where he's being put into an impossible position, and it'll be interesting to see how he reacts. I think that Rue is starting to, like, every time she looks at that safe and, like, she's looking at that

[Andy Greenwald]

safe, she's been looking at it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And the same thing goes for Laurie's basement of illegal pleasures full of drugs and guns and money. But I feel like those two characters are being. Having the most pressure put on them in a lot of ways, and how they react will kind of define the rest of the season. The Jules part, I don't really know what to say because it doesn't really seem like it's in the same show as everybody else. I thought we were gonna get a little bit more coherence out of. Or cohesiveness out of the plot lines once they reintroduced Jules and introduced this idea of her being a sugar pig meat and introduced this plastic surgeon and introduced all this stuff. And now it's like Jules is kind of hanging out at Lexi's workplace and putting a bunch of dicks on a George Seurat painting, and it's not successful.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is a radical reinterpretation of Sunday in the park with George.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Now, they contrast that with Cassie at the party. Right. Like, isn't that during that sequence, it's like Jules painting. Is Cassie painting over it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I mean, I think if you squint, there may be some loose commentary there about the old ways to become famous and the new ways to become famous.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

And how hidebound the old ways are. And I do think that those scenes with the Sharon Stone scenes with the, you know, the necessary din Tai Fung takeout containers in her office are meant to be satire.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

They fall flat for me, even though I'm enjoying Sharon Stone's performance quite a bit.

[Chris Ryan]

Also quite funny. I wonder how the homies at HBO felt about a studio executive being like, do you know what your day of missed shooting costs?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, that's a little bit of, like, we're all laughing here. Right, guys? Right. I. But the naivete of everyone involved was discordant to me. Not just that, like, what a great opportunity to have my friend come do a painting for a television show that has 8 million people watching it every week. Which is like, okay, buddy, good luck. I wish.

[Chris Ryan]

What is this? Mayor of Kingstown.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. But beyond that, then the reaction to it, and then the idea that she somehow her dreams have been crushed because this insane painting that she's hung on the set of a television show is somehow being rejected. I don't understand this character at all or what her point of view is or what we're doing with her.

[Chris Ryan]

I couldn't tell, honestly. I think the thing that you have to ask yourself is, do you think that what Jules does to the painting is like an artistic breakthrough for her? Because it happens wordlessly in comparison to Cassie painting her masterpiece, you know? And so I'm wondering whether or not, like, through this rejection of her expression of sexuality, did Rue find a more abstract but more powerful way of expressing herself? Sorry, Jules. Find a more abstract and powerful way of expressing herself, or where she's just like, I'm gonna ruin this painting with red paint and then walk away. And we'll pick my story up next week.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think what's frustrating, and I wanna be careful when I say this, because I actually, Big picture thought, I do not have a prescription for this show. There is not a version of season three that I'm just gonna get sick.

[Chris Ryan]

Doesn't need one.

[Andy Greenwald]

Fair enough. But I'm not sitting down here being like, ah, if only. Here's how you'd fix it. Like, this is such a unique convergence of events and celebrity and vibes and aesthetics and all of it that it is. It just is what it is. So. But here we are covering it every week. That said, a minor frustration of Woodakutta is that genuinely an idea of how limiting and how unpleasant and how surprising and occasionally depraved the opportunities are for people five years out of high school in quote unquote, this town or maybe America, like, that's a fairly fertile landscape to explore. And again, if you squint that the former addict is now giving drugs to people and trying to go legit, but also is now completely enmeshed in an impossible, never ending drug war with pigs and dead birds surrounding her. But specifically, that idea of people who were special in high school one way or another, and then wanting to make it, and then what are the options of doing that? Can you marry a conservative businessman? Well, no, because everyone's leveraged and no one can do anything and everybody's in debt to somebody else. Like, can you become. Can you. Can you get a job in Hollywood while you can unwrap someone else's dumplings to work on something that is already failing.

[Chris Ryan]

Pounding away on final draft.

[Andy Greenwald]

Something's coming. Well, xoxo.

[Chris Ryan]

She had quite a dramatic debut last year, last season with her play.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'll ask my daughter about it. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, there's There. And maybe this is what you find an element of what keeps you coming back isn't just that it's not boring, but like, you see these things, these potentially amazing things just sort of tossed out and then we move in a different direction. There's a lot, there's no shortage of stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

And some of it is working and some of it isn't, but it was, I thought, broadly speaking, a entertaining and surprisingly cohesive episode of TV and suggests an endgame of sorts that we're moving to. Potentially not a series endgame, but a season endgame that will be compelling in a different way, in an old fashioned way, in a. Oh, I'm engaged and curious what's going to happen next.

[Chris Ryan]

I think the thing I'm most fascinated by is, I mean, I remain entertained by it on episode to episode level, is to what extent will the main characters influence the outcome of the other main characters? Or are they all going to have like personal epiphanies, catharsises, endpoints at the end of the season that don't have a ton to do?

[Andy Greenwald]

What is the history? I will ask you this, like, what is the history of the show in terms of its finales? Like, have the storylines overlapped? Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, they were all in high school together.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So that was the thing, is that like now Los Angeles is their high school. So it's. To what extent is Rue gonna get a drug connect through Maddie?

[Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator]

Is,

[Chris Ryan]

you know, is she gonna start selling to like the guy that Cassie was just seen with this week? I mean, like, they'll have to pull things together. And to what extent does Nate put down his shovel and his ideas of building homes for the elderly and get back involved in some dark shit?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's also interesting to watch it with a old fashioned TV brain. An example of that would be when the superstar influencer asks if the coke has been tested and she's like, no, I get it from my usual plug, it's fine. He's like, okay. And then what does Cassie say? I love coke. She got me on that one. That in a more conventional television show would be laying a trail towards fentanyl laced cocaine entering this milieu too. And the world's colliding.

[Chris Ryan]

It's possible that it might. I mean, there's.

[Andy Greenwald]

But it's also euphoria that may never come up again. It's just that we're watching an influencer and that is a accurate reflection of how hard partying people on camera all the time have to treat drugs.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought it was Also an interesting commentary on, like, you know, we've moved on from, like, the safe sex era and into the safe drug era.

[Andy Greenwald]

We?

[Chris Ryan]

America.

[Andy Greenwald]

Mm. Well, again, when Leah Seydoux arrives at lax, you're gonna have to explain all of this to her. You may feel a magnet below the city. Trust me, it's a metaphor.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you want to talk about the Sixers before we go at all?

[Andy Greenwald]

You want to swap the lights? What do you want to say?

[Chris Ryan]

Let's get a little tender here? That is a legitimately beautiful sports moment, and I'm really, really, really, really happy for those guys. They don't need me to be happy for them. But I just want to say, like, watching Joel Embiid get his entire body stretched out and just watching him and being like, do you have to stretch? Snap. And ectomy surgery? Like, I don't really know what. What's happening here. Like, did you rip your stitches? Like, what happened? And watching him on the ground and, like, everything that he's put his body through. Yeah, it's just the first round. It's It. But it is Game 7 in Boston, and it just. It meant something. That was fucking incredible.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to be careful here, because I'm worried. This is a little bit like when, like, Pete Buttigieg goes on, like, Fox News, and they let him cook for, like, 10 minutes, and then the feed gets pulled, like, how much can we talk about this series?

[Chris Ryan]

We're free to. We're free to.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're sure? Yeah. You've been given the green light.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

We can't just be, like. Mostly my first reaction about the Sixers winning Game seven over the Celtics was, I felt bad for Derek White. He didn't have the series that he wanted, you know, and so put the camera on him. He's laughing at the bit.

[Chris Ryan]

That was what Bill saw in Game five.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right. Genuinely, this has been a rollercoaster for me, because I have not been.

[Chris Ryan]

You didn't make yourself available emotionally to this?

[Andy Greenwald]

No. But what was terrifying, although not. Not probably surprising to you, was, like, I. I felt like the crater open inside of me as I was sitting down to watch game seven of how badly I wanted this.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And how wonderful it was to finally actually win one of these. Like it. I know we've had a lot of citywide success over the last few years, but specifically this team and specifically against that team.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You just need to get those guys. Like, I. Honestly, I. I hope. I. I obviously hope we beat the Knicks.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. A lot of nice Knicks Fans in my life, happy for them.

[Chris Ryan]

Don't have my hopes up very high for it. I'm. Anything is possible. I'm pulling for us. But, like, I just beating Boston was in and of itself, like, worth it.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I also want to say I understand how funny it is when there are people like, their fan bases and things are, like, want to put up in the rafters that they, like, came in second in the play in tournament or whatever. It's like I would legitimately hang. Hang a banner that we advanced out of the first round into game seven. That's fine. I will always remember where we were. Can I ask you a sports thing about this game that just your general take on this one thing after this game, which was thrilling and we won, and Tyrese Maxey was the best player on the court, and that was awesome. Was. As soon as it's over. This is not unique to the series, but everybody is so buddy, buddy. Like, everyone. Immediately, Joelle goes over to Jaylen Brown and they have some hugs, and everybody's dapping up everybody.

[Chris Ryan]

Don't you love that? Don't you love everybody being friends?

[Andy Greenwald]

I like everybody on the same team being friends. So I can fall asleep at night.

[Chris Ryan]

Typically at the end of series, people really dab each other up.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think there's a version of it that is, like, respect.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I feel like it was a little too.

[Chris Ryan]

Jaden McDaniels essentially was like, every nuggets is a marshmallow, and, like, every nugget is, like, not worthy of being on the floor with me. And then at the end of this, at that end of that season, he like, Caesar Sears. He hugged yoga.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it's a switch. You can flip it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. That's like you and me. It's all love in here.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then once.

[Chris Ryan]

And then we get out there, I'm like, you marshmallow.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I'm like, I am a marshmallow.

[Chris Ryan]

It's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was cool.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't believe we have to play again. I'm tonight.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but you can't. I did Google it. You can't have a second appendectomy. That's what's cool about it, is that, like, every time someone rolls into his knee, I'm like, same fucking knee, man. That's crazy. You can't just tick it off. It's not like the game of Operation where it's gone. I did double check this. You cannot regrow the appendix, and it cannot burst again.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, good.

[Andy Greenwald]

So that's in our favor.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't think that that was gonna happen. I am worried about his hip contusion and his knees and everything else. And Maxi's hand and the Knicks fans and all that stuff, like in the intensity of the Garden. But if we punt game one, it's okay. It's a long series.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a long series. Yeah. Anything can happen.

[Chris Ryan]

All right. Thanks to Kai, Kaya and Sarah, we will be back on Thursday to talk about Widow's Bay and Top Chef and some other stuff. We'll put the Modern Library list of 100 books in the show notes. Oh, yeah, I'll send that to Kaya.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is a safe space to do those things.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I don't know if I necessarily landed the plane, but, you know, we'll see.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the Air France plane is on its way.