HBO’s Upcoming TV Slate, the Many Ghosts of ‘Industry,’ and ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ E3

Summary

The Watch – February 2, 2026

Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald
Episode: HBO’s Upcoming TV Slate, the Many Ghosts of ‘Industry,’ and ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ E3

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Episode Overview

This episode revolves around three main themes:

• A deep dive into HBO's upcoming TV slate, focusing on network strategy and recent executive interviews.
• An in-depth and impassioned breakdown of the latest "Industry" episode, praising its storytelling risks and exploring its "many ghosts."
• A lively discussion on Episode 3 of “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms,” highlighted by speculation, meta commentary, and the joy of good "telly."

True to the podcast’s signature style, Chris and Andy blend industry insights, critical analysis, playful banter, and thoughtful digressions, all while dissecting TV’s current landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chris’s Boston Trip & Live Shows

[01:35-04:00]

• Chris recounts his time at the Something in the Way Fest in Boston, presenting "Repo Man" to a younger crowd at the Coolidge Corner Theater alongside Yassi.
• “I get older. These dudes keep discovering Heat at exactly the same age.” – Chris, on staying culturally current ([03:01])
• Andy reflects on Chris and Yassi’s dynamic—“the dawn of my new favorite buddy comedy”—highlighting their chaotic energy and adaptability.

2. HBO TV Slate & Casey Bloys Interview

[07:35-18:44]

White Lotus Season 4 Casting ([07:57-09:57])

• Helena Bonham Carter, Alexander Ludwig, Chris Messina, Steve Coogan, Aly Michalka headline the new season.
• Andy marvels at Mike White’s uncanny casting talent:
  “No fun faux casting can ever do it as well as Mike White actually does it. Like Steve Coogan and Helena Bonham Carter is elite.” ([09:15])

HBO Programming & Strategy

• “The Pit” will remain annual; "House of the Dragon" likely ends at Season 4. “Night of the Seven Kingdoms” is shooting S2.
• Casey Bloys discussed HBO’s approach to budgeting—prioritizing savvy, efficient investments (i.e., licensing from Crave, cost-effective locations).
• Chris: “It was really interesting to watch Casey do Moneyball throughout this interview...” ([11:45])
• Andy observes tension between HBO’s creative leadership and the pressure from streamers, drawing a contrast with the Marvel model (avoiding “flooding the zone” with franchises).

HBO Max’s New Cop Show – ‘American Blue’

• Reminiscent of HBO’s push into broadcast-style genres: doctors, cops, family dramas.
• Milo Ventimiglia cast, David Ayer to direct pilot.
• Playful ribbing about the “nickname guy” archetype in TV procedurals.

The Future of HBO Within Netflix? ([16:55-19:52])

• Chris contemplates the challenge for HBO to maintain its identity if merged with Netflix, especially with release models (batch vs. weekly).
• Andy notes: “I do have a feeling ... that Ted Sarandos does appreciate the uniqueness of the things that he is attempting to acquire … and I think he understands that the release model is part of that.”
• The release cadence—weekly vs. all-at-once—is credited as crucial to HBO’s “cultural conversation.”

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3. Industry S4E4: “Many Ghosts”

[23:08-54:45]

Episode Structure & Cinematic Risks

• Chris: “The show has now kind of gotten into that like the breaking of the rules is the rule zone...” ([23:11])
• The episode’s climax: intertwined fates of Jim Diker and Rishi, both experiencing catastrophic falls—literally and figuratively.
• “Industry can be like... I know the rhythm. I know what's happening. I know the beat. And then something will come up...” ([25:07])

Heaton’s Performance & The Power of Downbeat Monologues

• Praise for Charlie Heaton’s “arresting and blazing” performance as Diker—his breakdown is both harrowing and weirdly lyrical.
• Notable quote (Heaton as Jim Diker, via Chris):
  “We age without getting older. Stuck on a wheel of prediction and consumption ... We built an interface with the world that gives us what we want, but not what we want to want.” ([31:53-32:12])
• The Ultravox needle drop at episode’s end is hailed as “an all-time needle drop.” ([32:23])

Ghosts & Spectral Figures in Industry ([32:34-36:07])

• Chris floats the idea of revisiting “ghosts” across Industry’s run—mentor figures like Clement, vanished superiors, dead trainees, and the persistent sense of hauntings.
• Andy: “We're on a ghost ship. I thought that was industry at its best.” ([53:07])

Absence of Middle Management & The “Hollowed Out Middle”

• Andy: “Everyone in this show this season is playing dress up ... the only authority figures left ... are dinosaurs.” ([36:41])
• The show critiques both finance and contemporary society; the middle is gone, the young are overpromoted, and only oligarchs and figureheads remain.

Henry Muck & The Love Square ([42:13-47:57])

• Kit Harington’s performance praised for both intimidation and vulnerability—“like Allen Iverson in the paint.” ([42:21])
• Dynamics between Henry, Whitney, Yasmin, and Haley dissected, particularly the transactional nature of relationships and who’s using whom.

On Writing, Risk, and Creative Courage

• Andy: “Not many shows have the courage of that conviction...” ([26:26])
• Appreciation for the show’s willingness to “paint themselves into story corners,” taking big narrative risks.
• Rishi’s arc—plummeting from hopeful redemption to attempted self-destruction—illustrates this narrative boldness.

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4. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms E3

[54:45-64:58]

Egg’s True Identity and the Art of the Reveal

• Andy and Chris agree the show’s pacing and timing with the “Egg is Aegon Targaryen” twist was expertly handled.
• Andy: “So much of what makes showrunners elite is this innate sense of tempo and timing and how to play ... when to call certain plays…” ([55:58])
• Andy: “It was, as my friend Martha says, just good telly.” ([58:08])
• The reveal’s placement—midseason rather than finale—keeps viewers on their toes.

Atmosphere, Performance, and Food in Westeros

• Finn Bennett praised as “an ace piece of shit” ([59:47])
• Discussion about world-building details, like breakfast food realism, seasoning speculation, and Game of Thrones’ ribald humor.

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5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Banter

• On Staying Young:
  “I get older. These dudes keep discovering Heat at exactly the same age.” – Chris ([03:01])
• On the Value of Week-to-Week TV:
  “I think the week to week releases really do help create a world of conversation around HBO shows…” – Chris ([17:23])
• On Industry’s Creative Risks:
  “Not many shows have the courage of that conviction ... writing yourself into corners and acknowledging ... when you commit to doing something, deal with the reality of it…” – Andy ([26:26])
• On the Episode’s Ghosts:
  “We're just steam on a mirror. We built an interface with the world that gives us what we want, but not what we want to want.” – Charlie Heaton as Jim Diker ([32:12])
• On Industry’s Theme:
  “There's purpose in the soullessness and it's attempting to comment on that in a way that I find pretty compelling.” – Andy ([54:33])

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6. Timestamps for Key Segments

• Chris’s Boston/Livestream Recap: [01:38–04:00]
• Casey Bloys/HBO Interview & Strategy: [07:35–19:52]
• The Week-to-Week Model vs. Netflix Model: [16:55–19:52]
• Industry S4E4 Deep Dive: [23:08–54:45]
  • The Diker/Rishi Pub Scene & Finale: [24:33–32:26]
  • Discussion on “Ghosts” in Industry: [32:34–36:07]
  • Critique on HBO Max’s genre shift: [13:33–15:13]
• Knight of the Seven Kingdoms E3: [54:45–64:58]
• Final Segments/Loose Banter/Recommendations: [65:03–76:00+]

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7. Extra Chatter: Gaming, Parenting, and Peccadillos

• Discussion on parenting and video games: “What Remains of Edith Finch” and the surrealism of watching/simultaneously streaming multiple things ([68:03–72:56]).
• Gripes on LA dog walkers and stop sign etiquette ([74:45–76:13]).
• Quick takes on the Grammys, TikTok musicians, and random streaming algorithm recommendations ([72:05–73:44]).
• News break: Nancy Meyers's new film with Penelope Cruz, Kieran Culkin, and Jude Law ([79:03–79:52]).

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Summary Takeaways

• HBO remains a unique cultural force by marrying artful programming with laser-focused business sense, trying to preserve its identity amid shifting streamer dynamics.
• Industry continues to distinguish itself with narrative audacity, complex characterization, and a willingness to push characters—and viewers—into uncomfortable territory.
• The “ghosts” of Industry highlight not just the past, but the show’s meditation on ambition, alienation, and a world in which the middle is missing, leaving only the young and the dinosaurs.
• A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms delivers masterful TV pacing, with its pivotal “Egg” reveal demonstrating showrunner confidence and skill.

Throughout, Andy and Chris maintain The Watch’s signature tone: sharp, irreverent, insightful, and deeply engaged with pop culture’s shifting landscape.

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

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[Andy Greenwald]

Room Stand up and Walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio turning Ultravox up way too loud for this time of night.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was nice.

[Chris Ryan]

It's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

I love your energy. We're coming from different places right now.

[Chris Ryan]

It's spiritually 1pm in the afternoon. Afternoon for me. Maybe this is when I should be potting Greenwall. Great to see you. The [e-mail] thewatchpod underscore on Instagram. You can watch us on ringer-tv on YouTube. You can watch us and listen to us on Spotify. I'm back from Boston. My hearing is intact. Had a great, great great weekend at Something in the Way Fest. Yassi and I went to do a live show with Pat Flynn from Fiddlehead and his new band How Much Art who played over it. Something in the Way Fest is awesome.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a good band name.

[Chris Ryan]

You gotta check that band out. We did a live show with him. We did a live bands Playing. And then Yassi and I presented Repo man at the Coolidge Corner Theater, which is one of my favorite movie theaters in the country. And so great. So many people seeing Repo man for the first time. Young faces. Yeah, the CR demo. Getting younger, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great. That's really good fun.

[Chris Ryan]

I was worried, you know, you wonder whether you're gonna. It's your audience and you guys are just gonn die together, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, you are like the Wooderson of podcasting.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. I get older. These dudes keep discovering heat at exactly the same age.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's really worked out for you.

[Chris Ryan]

No, it's great to see everybody. Boston was very friendly and very cold. It was really awesome to just go to a music festival. 8 degree weather, but it was. It was great.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also loved this because I got right. When we finished recording last week, I got a little bit of insight into what the weekend would be like because I was there for the dawn of my new favorite buddy comedy, which is you and Yasi, travel companions. It was awesome. You famously can roll with just about anything as long as you have your nicotine. I was going to say uncrustables, but basically. And then Yazi just had a really beautifully chaotic energy. She was carrying a fur coat. She had sent an Uber to get her sunglasses.

[Chris Ryan]

She had never been to Massachusetts before. She was quite worried about the cold.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, no, I think it was modeled on a tauntaun, but it was fake. And. And you guys, from what I understand, spent every second together and I love it.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I mean, like, it was the flights, it was the meals, it was the shows. And then we would take a, you know, an appropriate break to. To go read about Jeffrey Epstein and, And come back together and share your thoughts, share our learning.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think that we should promote, like, in the same way that, like, maybe some companies allow people to like. Oh, no. How about like a professional kitchen when you can. You can stage at other restaurants or you can like, if you usually work the grill station. I couldn't afford. I don't know. It couldn't be me. Yeah, the grill station. Then you work vegetables or mise en. Like, should we do that with the podcasts where, like, because you just had your band playing excursion. What, like, could we swap it up? Could we do like a fun freaky Friday week when everyone's on different.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, we've talked about that before. You know, your contract is very complicated. You know, there's a lot of performance based, incentive based, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I would just go on Philly Special for 20 minutes.

[Chris Ryan]

Exactly.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I'm saying everyone else would have a lot of fun.

[Chris Ryan]

Exactly. The Sean Manion Chronicles.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I ask you another thing? But we're going to get into our normal.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I do want to talk about Night of the Seven Kingdoms eventually. And I went on. I mean I went on. I did talk the Thrones this weekend with Mal and Joanna and we had a reaction to that. You can find that on House of R. But industry is going to take up, I think the majority of the industry.

[Andy Greenwald]

We're talking about industry. We are coming. You were just across the country. You were in cold weather. I'm coming off. I would say roughly two and a half, three hours of sleep and then four hours of international zooming. So I might be in a different place. But you did mention everyone's favorite reading material from the weekend. The files. The E Files. And I just want to say one thing. I just like this is the one. Obviously my first through 70th thought were increasing levels of horror. Did you think that when you saw the emails that were like, so sorry, I have no time to waste with diplomats. I'm currently running three companies and like, you know, whatever about to launch things. Did that remind you of texts that maybe I would have sent you like in the early 2000 and tens when you'd be like, do you want to get dinner? And I was like, actually, the NBC Thursday night lineup is quite stacked up. All night is premiering with Will Arnett and Christina Applegate. Thus I must decline your invitation.

[Chris Ryan]

You mean when you first started getting into like. I just was worried TV criticism.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not even. I just worry that there may be a strain and you would be the one to call me on this. Throughout our friendship, have I ever frontloaded my righteous reasons for not doing something cool? No. Yes. Yes. Not that what he was talking about was cool. I want to tread carefully here. But there was a kind of tone that you recognized. I worried it's definitely. That reminds me of when my father had an AOL account. So I did understand the sort of like actually.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I worried that I've done that for you. Maybe I've missed out on some good times like music festivals in Boston, possibly.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I mean? Sometimes you just to say yes, that's really. To music festivals in Boston and that's it.

[Andy Greenwald]

No other sort of travel.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I spent a lot of time. You know, you're just basically, I was just in a hotel room because it was so cold. You couldn't really like gallivant around Boston And I. And I did. I did imbibe in reading deep into the the lore.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you.

[Chris Ryan]

And I got to say after doing that Charlie Heaton's speech at the end of industry last night made a lot more sense to me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you for connecting the dots.

[Chris Ryan]

It felt like not that co.

[Andy Greenwald]

It felt pretty lucid. Yeah. Honestly.

[Chris Ryan]

We're going to talk about industry 1000 ute's.

[Andy Greenwald]

No other notes from no other news. Like you don't want to.

[Chris Ryan]

My bad. Yeah, we'll talk about that episode in a second. We did want to do a little bit of a recap of Casey Bloys.

[Andy Greenwald]

Kai liked it. Kai wants to talk about Melania the height. What a great gross for a doc. First of all, can we all just agree on that?

[Chris Ryan]

That was. I'm glad everybody sung that note.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the headline. Really? What a gross doc is what we're saying.

[Chris Ryan]

We were going to hit on Casey Boyce's deadline.com interview and talking about kind of some HBO stuff. You know what this was like? Casey was asked 400 times about game of Thrones shows and he volleyed and sort of parried away from a bunch of that stuff. I think those shows will come and go as they are ready to be done. But here's some headlines we had. Obviously we haven't really even commented on this, but the White Lotus Season 4 casting is pretty much locked up, I think. And it's Helena Bonham Carner.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is. So how does he do this? How does I mean, talk about an artist.

[Chris Ryan]

Let me finish.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who it is who is in control of his instrument.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's Helena Bonham Carter.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Alexander Ludwig, who you may remember from Vikings. No show that you definitely rock.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

Chris Messina, Steve Coogan, Ali Machalka from.

[Andy Greenwald]

AJ and Ali, which I've never watched.

[Chris Ryan]

And a couple of other folks who I am not. I'm not as familiar with their work. But those are the big names.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's more to come.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, you think so?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I mean the cast generally have a few more people.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder if it's a tighter cast this year. I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Budget cuts.

[Chris Ryan]

No, but it was an unwieldy brood last season.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know. It's true.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it felt like it was in a couple of different.

[Andy Greenwald]

The various nodes of the polycule of the cast. Each one had multiple people in it.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you remember that there was a. Maybe the last Good time on X.com, the Everything app was when everyone was like posting pictures and they were like True Detective Season 2. No fun faux casting of the White Lotus can ever do it as well as Mike White actually does it. Like Steve Coogan and Helena Bonham Carter is elite. Yeah, it's incredibly exciting. This guy just understands market deficiencies.

[Chris Ryan]

And I hope Steve Coogan is just doing Michael Caine from Dark Knight. He's just talking about how he won't bury another Batman.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want him to be doing Philomena.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah, Is that your shit?

[Andy Greenwald]

I prefer a serious Steve Coogan. No. I can't wait to see this. Sorry, I'm interrupting you. Go ahead.

[Chris Ryan]

No. And then so there was a little bit of that. The Pit is going to stick to its annual. But maybe not like January to January schedule. But KC said that he expects the Pit to be an annual season and that they're starting to generate ideas for season three. House of the Dragon is looks to end on season four in case he got into a little bit of the fallout between George R.R. martin and Ryan Condal, the showrunner for that show. And he was like. He was just like, hey, you know, families fight. Families fight. Just ours. This one broke out into the open. Night of the Seven Kingdoms is currently shooting season two. Wild Euphoria, which is coming on for its third season in the spring, could do a fourth season. There are now rumors that Sam Levinson has a couple of ideas for it and then it. He didn't say this, but I would guess by the numbers, the enthusiasm and the trajectory and his comments, which were vague but leaning positive, is that they will renew industry for season five.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I mean, I think he's clearly very pleased with it. I think he feels he and the entire team there feel very invested in it. And then you can see now the almost. It's almost quaint. Like the old school marketing machinery that HBO still has access to sort of rumble to life for something that is.

[Chris Ryan]

Rolling downhill when they get some momentum with it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well said. Obviously it was Covid, so I don't think there was ever going to be a big premiere. But there haven't been a lot of co brands of the industry leading into the season. There have been so many that the entire cast were ringing the bell at the stock exchange and then having an all nighter at Boiler room like the show with the young cast who actually like each other and like to go out, present a lot of opportunities for this sort of thing. Sure. So I feel like they're enjoying that.

[Chris Ryan]

I had one sort of broader observation from this entire interview.

[Andy Greenwald]

I had an observation too. Why don't you go First. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

It was really interesting to watch Casey do Moneyball throughout this interview and talk about in a way that I think many people who lead networks or. Or run programming departments, and I'm sure they're all conscientious of their budgets. But whether it's because they have to keep up with the Joneses or because they work for technology companies that are like, there is no limit. You know, if you need to spend $80 million on a show that never comes out or whatever, go for it. Several times in this interview and we'll put the link to the interview, the Deadline interview. In the show notes, he refers to like just basically like savvy business decisions. So whether it's a lot of heated rivalry, efficiency of making the Pit in California and being able to turn it over in that sense, there's a really interesting conversation about them licensing heated rivalry from Crave, which is the Canadian network having the rights to it for several seasons, I believe, but not being on the hook to renegotiate with this cast that has now reached I'm hosting SNL levels.

[Andy Greenwald]

But the implication was that Crave is going to have to renegotiate.

[Chris Ryan]

Can Crave afford to do that?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know what the loony is doing right now. Look, Mark Carney can work wonders on the global stage.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's true. That was very interesting. Clearly something that he was very involved with, which we know to be the case and is very proud of that. That is just.

[Chris Ryan]

And then he talked about Night of the Seven Kingdoms being a very affordable, within the context of Game of Thrones, affordable show to make. Although it sounds like season two, they have to shoot it in more of a desert climb.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, that's exciting.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The other thing that broke concurrently is HBO Max's long rumored, not rumored. I mean, they've been talking about it that they have a cop companion show for the Pit called American Blue.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I did not know about this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, this was in the interview. No, it's not. It broke also on Deadline the same day. This has been in development for a while. Comes from Supernatural showrunner Jeremy Carver, basically as part of the pidification, the networkization, broadcastivization, whatever of the Max platform. HBO Max platform. They were like, let's see if we can do this in the three spaces that traditionally broadcast networks operated in doctors, cops and family dramas. So the family drama is still forthcoming, or at least in development from the Berlanti universe under his overall at Warner Brothers. But American Blue was the one that kind of took the pole position for the cop show. Interesting. And Milo Ventimiglia was just cast as the lead. And David Iyer is going to direct the pilot.

[Chris Ryan]

David Iyer knows his way around a cop drama.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's another. I mean, the Logline is about a native son returning to his hometown of Joliet, Illinois to rescue a beleaguered police force while seeking redemption of his own. The character Brian Milk Milkovich, much like Robbie. That's the thing. I kind of. You remember when we used to do like.

[Chris Ryan]

I can tweak that.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I'm saying. When we used to do like the Jonas Erica glasses off Hollywood fixer thing. I just feel like the nickname guy like you, Jeremy Carver and everybody at hbo. Max, you're busy.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think he'll have a sassy desk sergeant named Lana instead of Dana?

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, and it's gonna do like 15 hours.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think it's. There's no insinuation that it's going to be the 24 style like, like in real time. But yeah, but yeah, just it's interesting and it's savvy both to be making these moves behind the scenes to get costs down and get a bigger return on investment. And it's very smart to be forward facing about that as he, as Kasey is in the interview, I would say, and I'm not here to do any kind of like media critique. I'll save that for my appearance on the press box, which is being negotiated right now by a lot of teams. Yeah. So I don't want to criticize any media reporting. And Nelly has been doing this for a very long time. But I was to note that the much of her interview was kind of like you said, it was kind of just like serve and volleying of her trying to get him to crack about release dates and renewals, which obviously are headline drivers. And there's a lot of curiosity. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You just get scoops out of that.

[Andy Greenwald]

But there's so much more to the story here. Kayce pushed back really hard on the development stuff because he doesn't want to a give them headlines that they can't back up. But also it seems to be very important to him that there really have been only two Game of Thrones shows that this isn't flooding the zone like Marvel in 2020. So he didn't comment on Sea Snakes and Aria or whatever the other things in development were. But I just felt like it was a missed opportunity to kind of ask more about the philosophical programming decisions. That they're making to stay distinct and to stay relevant, which has become almost existential, not just for Casey, but for hbo. Meaning how do you cut through the noise? That's what they've all been dealing with in this world of, you know, 400, 500 scripted shows, although that number is going down. But particularly, how do you stay like essentially a killer app when you are potentially about to be subsumed into Netflix?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, how do you work.

[Andy Greenwald]

How do you continue to do what they've done, which is work? The very high level end stuff, the prestige stuff that wins awards, the popcorn stuff, and now the sort of cost effective stuff and the one for us, like as he mentions in the story.

[Chris Ryan]

Like somebody somewhere else.

[Andy Greenwald]

How do you continue to make the right choices on all of those different playing fields all at the same time? I think that's interesting. And how, how the market forces and the upcoming market forces may have changed or affected their decision making.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, I think that the. It wouldn't be a nightmare scenario because FX obviously does really good work within the context of the Disney infrastructure, but it would be a strange experience to kind of evaluate HBO as a vertical within Netflix, you know, and to not think of it as something that was sort of on its own. And then frankly, like, I think the week to week releases really do help create like a world of conversation around HBO shows, because that's what people are watching. We're currently covering three broad, broadly HBO or HBO MAX shows on the pod and almost to the expense of everything else. And that's because we can do so for two months. If these sh. If the pit went up over the course of a weekend, we'd probably be done with it, you know, in three or four days to, you know, in terms of covering it. So I think that the biggest question I have about the potential merger or the potential acquisition of HBO in the Netflix world is like what happens to the release model? Well, you know, they have not moved off of that, you know, for as much as they're talking about theatrical, for as much as they experiment with live, for as much as Stranger Things was parceled out over the course of. Of three holidays, which was obviously to eventize it. I haven't seen anything that would suggest that they wouldn't put the pit up entirely in one weekend.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a great question. And would they treat the traditional A list brand HBO shows like White Lotus differently than they would treat these newfangled 15 hour HBO Max shows? Now that's a way down the line conversation because they haven't even. Sure this hasn't even gone through yet. I keep coming back to this and I don't know. And maybe our listeners and emailers will. Will give me their perspective on this. People who might know more than I do about it. But I do have a feeling, and this is not just like my vibes. I mean, people have said as much to me that Ted Sarandos does appreciate the uniqueness of the things that he is attempting to acquire that he does. Like what DeLuca and Abdi are doing with Warner Bros. Theatrical. And he likes going to the movies sometimes. I think he also likes and admires HBO and what they've been able to do and why they still are considered the crown jewel. And I think he understands that the release model as part of that. The question is appreciation versus stewardship and how long it takes because what is the TV equivalent of what many people are predicting, which is that he will respect theatrical windows. They're just going to get shorter. Right. What is the TV version of that?

[Chris Ryan]

I thought it was a different thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

That these shows become like what he's doing with Bridgerton, where it's like half and half seasons.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, but those are when those shows are up in the top the 99th percentile of Netflix shows.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I thought it was interesting. I'm sure Sean and Amanda will comment on this in more depth. Christopher Nolan made his first comments as his. In his role as the president of the DGA and had a lot to say about Theatrical windows.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And was sort of like the only thing that distinguishes this basic. Basically, like Sarando's real, like, attitude towards Theatrical windows will be a huge, like, indicator of where this industry is going and whether or not theatrical is just sort of like a quick exhibition to qualify for something or to like, have something in the theater for, you know, a week. Or whether it's going to be like we're going to keep using the movie theater as like, the primary way people are experiencing this art form.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, thank God for Jeff Bezos and Amazon committed to the theatrical model even for just sort of scrappy docs, you know what I mean? Like, they believe in that, like getting people out to the theater. Do you want to weigh in?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not scared to weigh in. I just, I think almost like your.

[Andy Greenwald]

Silence is deafening on this platform.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it's deafening because I lost my voice screaming while I was reading Epstein Evil. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee or it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a 2 percenter. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward/activecash Terms apply.

[Sponsor Announcer]

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[Chris Ryan]

All right, let's get into industry. How about that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

This is a really good episode of television. The show has now kind of gotten into that like the breaking of the rules is the rule zone where, you know, the last disruption. It's not even that. I'm not even trying to like give it tech keywords or anything like that. There is something really exciting about not knowing what's going to happen in the last like as. As we kind of like approach the last stretch of this episode and you've got Whitney and Henry having their kind of Edie and Neil Heat moment staring out over the landscape.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sorta. Yeah, sorta. And I Didn't remember that part of.

[Chris Ryan]

The movie, but that felt very Michael Mann to me. Like the two guys staring out into the city.

[Andy Greenwald]

More like Michael Mann on Man.

[Chris Ryan]

Michael Mann.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, Michael Mann. Men who love men.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, that's the conclusion of the episode in a lot of ways that you've got the Haley and Yasmin moment in the elevator. You've got the boys in the office.

[Andy Greenwald]

Got some other boys.

[Chris Ryan]

And then. And then it keeps going. You know what I mean? And you get Jim Diker's colossal, kind of like public scandal breaking with his relationship to not only Harper, but his inappropriate relationship with Haley. It gets to his editor. His editor is recommending his termination. Jim, spiraling, goes to a pub, gets a bag, has a bag, whatever.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's bags.

[Chris Ryan]

The bag man is also at the pub. Rishi. It turns out these two have been circling each other. It turns out Rishi is the one who broke into Jim's flat earlier looking for himself an edge on something that he could get involved with to, like, make more money in the market. The two of them recognize each other as lost souls and have.

[Andy Greenwald]

And pawns in a way. Right?

[Chris Ryan]

A dark knight of the lost soul. And that can get pretty fucking dark.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And what transpires is a quiet, like, arresting and blazing performance from Heaton.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And just that eerie, like, industry can be like. It'll be four on the floor and you're like, I know the rhythm. I know what's happening. I know the beat. And then something will come up, like the weird pub barfly.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was great.

[Chris Ryan]

Who's standing in the back turning the music up all the time and kind of amping up the drama. And the episode ends with Diker oding and Rishi flinging himself off his own balcony as the cops are coming into his flat. But not dying.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Breaking at least a leg, I imagine. Might have some ACL problems in the other one.

[Andy Greenwald]

What's our God's name? Dr. James Glashette. What's his name?

[Chris Ryan]

James Andrews. And there is a James what, the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Dude who built a new Joel Embiid.

[Chris Ryan]

Right?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's who works for the Jonathan Flash Out. He doesn't. But he works for the city of Philadelphia now. We're gonna put up his. You don't know about this. We're gonna hang his jersey.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought it was like some guy who works for the Sixers who just like, knee whispered him.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, he's an NYC orthopedic surgeon. Dr. Jonathan Glashow. We're gonna hang it.

[Chris Ryan]

All right? Relax.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know this is the most excited I've been all pot. All right, go on. Let's go back to episode of the year. Yeah, Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't say that. I just. He's like, it's really, really great. And. And you've talked about this really much more eloquently than I did. But just them writing themselves into corners.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, it's both writing yourself into corners and acknowledging not throwing, in gambling terms, a subject I know nothing about, but not throwing bad money after good, meaning when you commit to doing something, deal with the reality of it to the extent that you can, and then if you have to walk away, you walk away. And not many shows have the courage of that conviction. So when you introduce a character like Big Jim Diker and the first two things he does are sketchy at best and fireable and amoral at worst, how are you going to square that? Like, how do you prepare? And I think some shows would be like, oh, interesting. How will I kind of. I want it to shock with the introduction, but I now must make some sort of character wise to make it worth it or make us understand it. And with some of the additions to the character, even within this episode, you could maybe think that that's the. Those guardrails are being placed. Yeah, well, he's under a lot of stress. He's a girl dad. Or maybe he had a boy. I don't remember. But point is, dad, we don't.

[Chris Ryan]

You gotta take the bad girl dads with the good girl dads. You know, you can't have Marty Supreme. I think I was a boy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. I'm pretty sure based on his behavior, it was a boy. And you're thinking, are these guardrails for a potential salvation arc? And. No. No, it's not. Same for Rishi and. Although same for Rishi, I think. But the descent might be longer because I think Charlie Heaton.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it was pretty quick when he jumped off the charity.

[Andy Greenwald]

The ground came up real fast. I mean, Charlie Heaton, this is where obviously we're spoiling already, has done the round or before this episode aired, had done his round of interviews to go on to go up after and said that he knew he was doing a half season arc and everything and left all off the floor, quite literally. Yeah, but.

[Chris Ryan]

But you can see why. Yeah, you know, like, you can see why he would do something like that because, yes, in the first couple of episodes, the first three episodes, he's largely like, you know, staring at a computer screen and, you know, begging for more time on his. On his Story deadline. But, like, that's. That's why you would. Any actor in the world would sign.

[Andy Greenwald]

Up to do that, especially if you want to change direction from what you've been doing.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll say this as someone who is somewhat of a connoisseur of. Of cokey performances in movies and tv, I thought he did.

[Sponsor Announcer]

He.

[Chris Ryan]

He had, like, an energy that I don't think I. It wasn't like he was doing Sean Penn or doing Ray Liotta. Like, he had a very specific energy to him, like, when he was doing that. And I thought, like, his inability to hear Rishi was actually, like, the. The funniest part. Not funny, but, like, it was like, this is very dead on of this guy's. Like, I'm ranting and, like, this other dude talking about how he might want to kill. Kill himself and is never gonna see his son. And Diker's just like, no, no, no, man. I'm on. I've got, like, I see the guy. I've got the sheet music, brother. Like, I got it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, also, there was the way that anger, confrontation, fighting, disagreeing was part of the rush, that it was not actually for him, at least that it didn't seem like there were actual stakes to it. But to your point about, like, mitigating everything through ego and through personal experience, I thought that was one of the nicest things about the episode. Nice. Very little about the episode, but in terms of, like, through lines that almost every interaction was. There was always an extra element on top of it. So that when Jonah is talking to Sweet Pea, he is on the phone at a strip club. He can't even do either without. He can't enjoy vice or work separate and apart from each other. Everyone is basically staring into a private abyss. And, you know, in their conversations are feedback loops with whatever it is they already want to say.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I think one of the reasons why the show feels different than other shows is not only because of the music and not only because of the performances, but the performances are not. This is not like a marked base set. I don't think people have to stand still as they do, you know, single. Single master for these. For these actors. And there's a lot of, like, movement within what feels. When they're sets, they look like the real world, and then often it seems like they are shooting out in the real world. And that flat looked like a dingy prefab. Not dingy, but a prefab flat on Canary Wharf somewhere. You know what I mean? Like, wherever Rishi had sort of washed up.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to go back to the top of the episode before dwelling too. And then maybe we'll return to the end. But when you were talking about, like, cinematic references and the show feeling its oats more in terms of drawing from things, I don't know if it was subtle, but when you talked about Cokie Energy and the guy with the volume, I mean, that is straight out of the Boogie Nights playbook. That's the firecrackers.

[Chris Ryan]

I have two more things about the end before we go back to the beginning. Can I just bounce two things off of you? One is that I liked the idea of Jim's monologue as the piece he would never get a chance to write.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's well said.

[Chris Ryan]

I like the idea that he was tender and siren and, you know, payment processing platforms and the legality of what they're doing in Africa is all just like a kind of. It's like a chimera of like, this is what I really want to say about the world.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And so he gets it out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

And dies. Like it's his last will and testament, kind of.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, when he said. What did he say? We age without getting older. Stuck on a wheel of prediction and consumption.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I have. I have some other dogs.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was both ready to stand up and salute. And I was also like, ah, Conrad, I hear your music playing. I mean, it was kind of nothing serious.

[Chris Ryan]

We're just steam on a mirror. We built an interface with the world that gives us what we want, but not what we want to want. And, you know, and then goes out. Goes out like a champion, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

With Ultravox playing an all time needle drop.

[Chris Ryan]

I also wanted to ask you. I know that the man who was in the room with them was real.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I would like to go back through industry and spot the ghosts.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's very interesting. So wait, this is great. I'm not gonna take you off of this. But I also felt that it was a brilliant inclusion in the scene because there's also a strong. Strong. It's not even a whiff. It's a presence of paranoia. This episode, even before the Charlie gets broken out. And the idea that these people were, as you said, circling each other. But maybe more than that. That this was not a casual encounter.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. That Rishi has been prying into Diker's life and vice versa.

[Andy Greenwald]

But how high does this thing go? And is Whitney capable of having.

[Chris Ryan]

Or is he hasn't been capable.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right. Of having Diker killed or having it set up to look like he was killed. Is Rishi collateral damage? In a good way.

[Chris Ryan]

Let me just pull up Justice Gov.

[Andy Greenwald]

Would you mind killing this bloke? Whoops.

[Chris Ryan]

But.

[Andy Greenwald]

But the. The. The. The cleverness of the episode is, like. Is in the small details. Like the guy who ends up being their best mate, who has kind of big aging bez energy.

[Chris Ryan]

I felt. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Shout out. Happy Mondays.

[Sponsor Announcer]

He.

[Andy Greenwald]

His encounter with them is chasing off someone else. Right. To earn their trust. Which is actual classic spycraft. Right. Like, you set up both sides of that.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, to, like, engender their trust. Yes. I mean, you could argue that Rishi and Diker are gonna have that night regardless.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the thing. They don't really need to be pushed. They're jumping.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not literally like a ghost. It's just spectral figures throughout the series.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, who else are you thinking of?

[Chris Ryan]

Clement. You know, in the first season, who is obviously a real person, but is almost like future Rob. You know, kind of like talking him through his class crisis.

[Andy Greenwald]

Remind people I wanted to talk about Clement.

[Chris Ryan]

Clement is, like, one of my favorite inventions of the show, which is the. In the first season, Rob sort of assigned mentor who has one client and has been masking his Scottish heritage. I mean, his identity.

[Andy Greenwald]

One other thing, too.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And his heroin addiction.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And who essentially acts as, like, Rob's benefactor posthumously. And it's just this lovely. In half of an episode of season one, they go on this trip to Amsterdam, I believe.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't remember.

[Chris Ryan]

Or Antwerp. I think it's Amsterdam. And go to a tailor and have this experience. And it's just this incredible. If industry was a series of short stories, it would be one of my favorite ones.

[Andy Greenwald]

Absolutely.

[Chris Ryan]

We obviously had the Commander from earlier this season. So I was like, I kind of want to go back through and think about people who kind of hovered over these characters and then vanished, whether even Adler. You know what I mean? Like, the idea of these characters kind.

[Andy Greenwald]

Of think about the show began.

[Chris Ryan]

The show began with the trainee dying in the bathroom.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And it presents him. I don't have his name in front of me because he was brilliant in station 11 too, the actor. But, like, people were being picked off before they even started. And that shadow, I guess, falls emotionally on the characters, even though he's never really mentioned.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. Naban Rizwan. Sorry.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's fantastic.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Frank in Station 11.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was thinking a lot about the role Clement played and the lack of Clements going forward, and I think that there's two different ways into a conversation about it. In the show and I want to try to present it in a value neutral way because I'm curious your thoughts about it. We've talked about a lot so far this season about the lack of familiar settings. We've lost Pierpoint, although weirdly, purepoint is back.

[Chris Ryan]

I was gonna ask about this.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Succubus of the company is back haunting these characters. But outside of Eric, they've also lost all middle management. The only everyone in this show this season is playing dress up. No one more so than Yasmin, who is wearing an almost cartoonish Grace Jones power suit with the shoulders as she's play acting. And it's not a coincidence, it's a sign of, I think, cleverness and intent that. That it's as extravagant a period outfit as they were wearing when they were all dressed up for Henry's birthday.

[Chris Ryan]

My favorite outfit in this episode is definitely Henry's. Henry's relatable.

[Andy Greenwald]

His shirt open just a little bit.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. But tucked in Chelsea boots and is just kind of like, hey man, need some more layers. I know I'm aristocratic, but we're all friends here, you know, we all have.

[Andy Greenwald]

Our mental health struggles. Yeah. So basically this season the kids are playing dress up and the only authority figures that are left for them are dinosaurs. The people who run the newspapers, the people who have held the entrenched power. And I think that there is a critical weigh in of that where there are moments this season that I've bumped against where tender is going to completely revolutionize finance and government and banking, everything in this country. And it's being masterminded by these three dopes basically by the end of this episode. And that feels. Sometimes I question the reality of that, even though it's in the purpose of drama.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

There are other times when I'm like, oh, this is actually a withering and insightful exploration of the world of a hollowed out middle that exists where like we're gerontocracy politically and no middle. Like I'm not saying this to big up our pathetic generation, but like people in our generation have never held power in the country because the baby boomers didn't give it up. And then the younger people are like, what the fuck? Let's just go on onlyfans, I guess, or sirens. That seems to be the extent of it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So. And in the light of that binary, like what James speech is is quite telling. And there's an emptiness at the heart of this. People are play acting at responsibility when really everyone is just, you know, auto looping Their sonar pings into their own screens.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you ever feel, though, a lack of. Not that Clement was a great mentor, but in a way he was a guide. Not necessarily all positive. He was like a. Almost even when he was alive. He was like a Christmas Carol type figure.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what I. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

For Rob, do you feel the lack of any.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that there's like, you know, I don't feel an absence, I think what I'm saying, experiencing watching, you know, this, this show opens. This episode, opens with crisis talks at two different companies.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So Sterntau, which is essentially, you know, two, two, three people at four people at this point with Kenny banking for them. Kind of freaking out because Diker's not published a follow up yet that exposes these Sunderland, you know, drop sites where. Yeah, people are doing like, you know, whatever they're doing for Tender.

[Andy Greenwald]

They need to tarnish the. The reputation of Tender quickly in order.

[Chris Ryan]

To secure their shorts or whatever. And then at Tender, they're talking about their new app now. While I was watching those first two scenes, I was kind of like really distracted by a thought I had of industry with normal music. You know, like, like what would industry feel like if it was just like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Bump, bum bum bum bum, bum bum bum. Oh, if it was like Tina Fey's husband's circus, like score from like 30 Rock or Kimmy Schmidt, someone could drop that. I'm with you on that because when.

[Chris Ryan]

I was watching it I was like, these two companies are quite likely lawless. You know, I mean, like we're watching that. But open up Bloomberg companies.

[Andy Greenwald]

You pay for that subscription. Must be nice. That's great if you can kick me a free article link sometime. It's really hard being you to the point of music. I do want to say that it really absolves all sins because I was more critical of last week's episode certainly than you were. And then to have this episode begin with a classic contemporary drama, construction of an around the Horn, where we're checking.

[Chris Ryan]

In what's going on, how much money do we have? What are we doing?

[Andy Greenwald]

And everybody's a little agitated for reasons that are interlinked. And then the Nathan McCabe the keys dropped and I was like, let's go, let's go. That it's really, really just smart asset management to be like, we are taking some risky positions, but we are still the same company.

[Chris Ryan]

But this is, this is why what happens is like in the same way that you're talking about these experienced veterans moving off the stage both in terms of like, like characters on the show, but in the world of finance, if it's all upstart cowboys with short plays or crypto and I guess we're gonna start sounding like Jim Dyker here in a second, like, then this is what's gonna happen. You know, you basically have two rebels, like, fighting against each other in this show, instead of like an old guard and a new guard, and then only remnants of the old guard are actually like these hollowed out storefronts. Like peerpoint.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Which is up front now, which is.

[Chris Ryan]

Basically like, oh, it has some name recognition. So it's like basically a piece of financial IP that we're resurrecting. And then at the end of the episode, you know, they basically take a stake in PeerPoint to offset the risk of PeerPoint taking a stake in them, which is, you know, if you can wrap your head around that, you're kind of like, we're so fucked. Did you want to talk a little bit about the love square developing between Henry, Whitney, Yasmin and Haley? Although I would not put love central into this square there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's talk. Let's start with the Henry stuff because I think Kit Harrington continues to add to his Emmy FYC reel.

[Chris Ryan]

He's fucking awesome in this show, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you know what he's really, really good at? I mean, many things as we're learning, but something that I think he was also good at in Game of Thrones. And I wouldn't say, I mean, he's a talented actor and, you know, you're always honing your craft. But there's a specific thing that I think you can trace back to Game of Thrones that I love seeing here, which is that he is. And I know we keep harping on this in the. You know, he is not a particularly tall man. However, physically, he is elite at menacing people who are even on screen clearly bigger than him. Yeah, it's like. It's like. It's like Allen Iverson in the paint, basically. He's just like. He understands that the way to be bigger and to intimidate people, whether it's. Whether it's Whitney, I think in one scene or anyone else is. He doesn't come over the top. Like, he is bigger. He goes low, like a wrestler about to take them down. And it is intimidating. It's a physical performance, not just a clever verbal performance.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't imagine having to act and give emotional intent to the dialogue that Mickey and Conrad write for this show and how it's so acrobatic and it's so dense. So it's really on the performer to imbue it with the emotional intent of each moment. He's the. He might be the best at it. You can see, like pain in his eyes as he says certain things that. Cause he's not getting his way about how he wants something presented. Like, he's the one where you're watching and you're like, if I don't. Even if I don't understand the concept of what he's saying, or like the real interaction between. Like, if we take a stake in them and they take a stake in this, I can see. I understand emotionally what he wants because of the way he projects it. And honestly, you're right. He was like that in Game of Thrones. He was able to, you know, even if it was dense fantasy ideas, like communicate a very clear emotional kind of reality to the, to the audience. It's not. It's like kind of like watching, you know, you can watch tons of people do Shakespeare and then you watch Emma Thompson do, and you're like, oh, I kind of understand Shakespeare now.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's also a much more complicated journey. Cause I think broad, broad, broad strokes, the journey of Jon Snow is he's nothing. He's the bastard. He's a pawn of history to having agency in it. And what's fascinating about this performance is it's someone who is incredibly privileged, who is used to having things his way, in a certain way, and has no issues indulging himself in almost any direction. And yet you see him repeatedly, almost buck against the handcuffs that he suddenly finds himself in. Most of them are emotional psychosexual handcuffs. Like when he says to Yasmin, you're meant to talk me down. You're doing this wrong. This is not right. I'm afraid of you.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, he tripped. He traps her. You know, he's like, give me a lorazepam. And she's like, I can try and find one. He's like, God damn it. That's like, you know, you did it wrong.

[Andy Greenwald]

And what was interesting. And again, I think the show has been very smart about. Is it too much to keep making these financial analogies, keep backstopping its position?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, we may not even know what I mean.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have no idea what that means. I'm just gonna try it. Because you could watch the season up to this episode and you could say, I understand why Henry is being made the CEO of this company for the purposes of an eight episode season. Beyond that, I'm not Entirely clear on it. I'm not entirely sold on it. Then you see the way Whitney looks at him and puts his hand on him, and the talk about, like, building on the conversation from, I believe, the previous episode, where he talked about second acts and where they are possible and where they are not, and the way he talks about, much like Yasmin does, pouring his hopes and dreams for what Henry Muck could be into the very flawed vessel known as Henry Muck. You start to understand it on multiple levels, not just on a plot contrivance level, which is really helpful.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, in the same way that they're using PeerPoint. Is it PeerPoint powered by tender or tender powered by PeerPoint? I can't remember which.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think by the end, Tender has the upper hand.

[Chris Ryan]

It's almost like a guy like Henry is better than nothing. You know, it's like you basically have some name recognition. You have some aristocracy or, you know, he's a. He's a landed gentry.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

So you're building up from that. And it's better. Even if he has failed publicly with Lumi and had mental health and drug problems in the public, you're still. You know, it's like, hey, we'll just make a. We'll go back into the 1980s and just grab this title because it has a higher baseline name recognition than anything else. So I really like the idea that all these people have sort of convinced him that this is King Arthur, you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Know, and that he has.

[Chris Ryan]

For giving a fucking speech.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but he has his Saint Swithin's Day speech. He goes off book and he moves people in an unmovable room.

[Chris Ryan]

Then he blows right by his beautiful wife.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was awkward. But his beautiful wife is. What's the word? Maybe a monster.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yes. Reminiscent of the. The succession sequence with Shiv talking a sexual abuse whistleblower out of coming forward. Yaz gets Haley, played by Kieran Shipka, promoted at. At Tender as a kind of reward for participating in a threesome with her and Henry. Slash.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also potentially another. She's someone on her side. I mean, she is. I mean, it's intentional. She is completely out of place and in, you know, in front of her. Out in front of her skis.

[Chris Ryan]

I think she. She's presenting it to Hayley as, like, I recognize, like, great talent in you professionally. And Haley's like, let's be honest, like, about what that was.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And now I have something on you as well.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the arc of the episode. Yes. Did you feel we're talking about how, like, One of the smart things that showrunners can do is have certain people on an innings count. You know, the James Diker story served a purpose and they gave Charlie Heaton enough real estate to make a character have opportunities and then also to have it surprise. Were you surprised that the Haley character is going in this direction or is having the prominence that she is thus far not saying that she couldn't be gone after next week? I mean, that's part of the fun of watching the show now.

[Chris Ryan]

I also think that, like, the characters can change week to week. And I didn't see scenes from next week. And we should mention that both industry and Night of Seven Kingdoms are going up on Friday this week because of the Super Bowl. I don't know how she is going to react to the news that Diker has died or that, you know, like. Like, I don't know how she's going to feel next week. She's a. She's a young person, you know, like, I think there's a liveliness.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And this is now not like she's not Lena Headey in Game of Thrones. She's a person who's like, maybe got more to her than what Yasmin thought, but I don't know that she's like, soulless or anything like that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm curious where. It's a very intentional choice at this. Like, having Ken Lung and Mahala be in the show is incredible for the show. I don't know how much conversation, although there may have been some. There was at the genesis about the importance of them being American, you know, in terms of the story, as opposed to we need some Americans in here. Cause it's gonna be an international show. At this point in season four, bringing in these American characters is more significant. And there was some thought to it, as evidenced by that second acts in American Life or English Life thing. So I'm very curious what. What is going to be said about that. Not just because as an American who's been in England recently. Yeah, as are you. I mean, I don't want to step on your experience as well. Thanks. I want to hold some space for it. I will say the only time that I really was out on this week's episode was when Calabasas said that I don't rate that at all.

[Chris Ryan]

But if she's been in England for five years, maybe she's started picking up some.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what I say when I accept my pint of Na Top? Cheers.

[Chris Ryan]

That was really it. That was all I had for industry this week. Do you have anything else?

[Andy Greenwald]

The Rishi stuff was excellent. I think Cigar Radia is giving just a great performance. I think it is also another example of playing with timing and expectation. Because last week we were talking about how much more. This is probably the right way to phrase it, Rope the character had and how the repercussions will be doled out. And clearly we were expecting more repercussions than sweet pea being like. Like, get this guy away from me.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

That came this week in the form of, oh, that was the other screen mitigating experience when he's getting roadhead from his underage drug dealing.

[Chris Ryan]

Hey, I forgot about that.

[Andy Greenwald]

But again, it's all on a screen. We have that scene, we see how far he's fallen in a way. Although, you know, probably someone in the New York Review of Books is just like, Rishi's job remains the same across these.

[Chris Ryan]

Does New York Review of Books do industry recaps?

[Andy Greenwald]

I. No, but, you know, I renewed my subscription when they had a big takeout on effingers. So I feel like now they are. We're really setting the agenda for the elite publications in this country, for Bloomberg.

[Chris Ryan]

And the New York Review.

[Andy Greenwald]

Finally, our generation is taking power when it matters. The scene with his surprisingly religious ex mother in law, with his son, there was a devastating scene. But what's interesting and compelling about the show is the way that they do switch up the tempo. So with those scenes coming in short order and then him showing up, you know, clearly intentionally with James, I thought, ah, I see. So the Rishi story is now going to be onboarded, like mainstreamed into Sterntau and everything. And this is just the beginning of it. And I'm fine with it. It's great. I'm ready for him to come back and be the, you know, dirty investigator or whatever it is that he's gonna be doing. And then he throws himself off of a balcony, which was surprising. Not that he did it. That episode was clearly headed that way. But then in terms of. They keep putting. They keep painting him into story corners and it's risky and it's interesting. And I don't. I'm purely curious to see where it goes, because I. That outcome for him is not unexpected. But it was unexpected at the end of episode four.

[Chris Ryan]

It was. And it was not unexpected given the way that the. The way that he had kept running into basically dead ends, cul de sacs, professional rehabilitation, personal rehabilitation, you know, and then he finds himself like the guys that. And the people that he is going to be like leveling out with are like coked out people at afters, you know what I mean? And that he's never really going to get a license to do what he did before. He's essentially a drug dealing father of a child that he will never be allowed to see alone again.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. His name is being changed and people.

[Chris Ryan]

Are frequently calling him murderer or at least publicly calling him a murderer.

[Andy Greenwald]

And he's infamous in a way that I don't think I understood. Yes. Yeah. Coming off of last season. That people would know about it. Yeah, we're on a ghost ship. I thought that was, I thought that was industry at its best. And I also just, you know, obviously we, we know the guys who make it. We've talked to them many times and I am always looking for convergence between, you know, the meta story of things and, and the idea of like the middle managers being gone and only dealing with the sure oligarchs while you try to make something creative that lasts is relevant. I just thought that that speech was so nicely twinned with the feature that the New Yorker ran about them, which is back in December. And it's a great story. They explain everything behind the scenes, but the fact that it ends with Mickey going home to be with his family, the story and Conrad talking about why people are fucking miserable while waiting for his friend who works at Goldman to arrive. I'm like, everything is copied. But it is a. You can't watch this show.

[Chris Ryan]

It feels personal.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I'm saying. That is always the secret sauce to almost anything that we respond to artistically and not just us people. And I love that the show is. There's a seriousness of purpose to the show that earns it its stripes. There are moments even the season where I'm like, is it veering into. I said this last week. The more sensationalist chaotic elements.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

That get headlines or get go viral or, you know, or. But it, it knows what it's doing and there's purpose in the soullessness and it's attempting to comment on that in a way that I find pretty compelling.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that on a week to week basis there's like just lots of gifable moments and kind of. There's an almost like probably built in viral quality to it. I wouldn't say that that's something that they're thinking about when they're writing, but it just feels that way when it's like, oh, you know, Kieran Shipka throwing up her mini dress is really gonna like blow people's minds. But when you look at, like, the four episodes together, when the themes of this series and seasons start to emerge, and when you kind of think about all the flourishes that happen as writers, as directors, it's really. This is why we spend so much time talking about it. Let's spend a little bit of time talking about a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. I talked about this with Mal and Joe. A lot of what we talked about actually, at the top of that episode, and I wanted to get your thoughts on it, was the twist and the idea of. Was it a twist? Was it a thrill for you as somebody who obviously didn't read the books, but I don't know how much you read about the characters going into it. So spoilers for this third episode of Night of the Seven Kingdoms. But what did you think of the reveal at the end? That egg is, in fact, Aegon Targaryen.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was thrilled.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you know it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

I still don't really know what that fully means. And I was going to ask you to help talk me through some twisted Targaryen history, but just listen to that fortune teller. But yeah, exactly. But she's good at her job. She should definitely get a raise. So much of. I say this constantly for almost every major show. We talk about for the many years we've been doing this podcast. But. But much like play calling in the NFL, so much of what makes showrunners elite is this innate sense of tempo and timing and how to play. You know, when to call certain plays, let's put it that way.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And the reason why. I know.

[Chris Ryan]

I wish there was, like a heat map for, like, what you mentioned, and it's definitely offensive coordinating. And the effingers are just like, fucking redder than the sun.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, this podcast is personal, much like industry. We have to bring our whole selves to it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but jokes aside, I was aware of that reveal, and we made some passing jokes last week about how they were kind of laying a little bit thick with the edit. But one of the fun things about watching the show regardless. Well, the main fun thing about watching the show regardless is that this show is very fun to watch, and that's enough. The second fun thing was, knowing what I know, how will they choose to share this information? And this episode through the first half was. I mean, there was jousting, but it was relatively slower and more contemplative and gave me the thought that the reveal was coming at the end of the season, that it was going to be a long throat clear before we get there. What they did that I love. And again, this is probably. If not, you can tell me probably because of your experience with. With. With Joe and Mal, like from the text or not, like a huge creative leap on the part of Ira Parker. Making the circumstance in which it's revealed the most dramatically fraught and put it at the exact midpoint of the season.

[Chris Ryan]

Is just that isn't that is as it is in the novella. But I thought that whole sequence was beautifully staged.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was so good. And it was, as my friend Martha says, just good telly. Because you see, we've watched it plays on so many things. Our expectations, our spoiler potentially having been spoiled or not, our surprise. But also in a very subtle and clever way, it plays on our many of ours, decade plus of watching Game of Thrones where we know if you punch a prince in the face, it's not gonna go great. And there's only maybe one thing that can save you. And so they pulled it out of the hat at the right moment.

[Chris Ryan]

I was thinking about this. Cause these guys, these two characters, the main characters are obviously teaching each other so much both. You know, Egg obviously has this kind of insight into the mechanics of when he come. When Dunk comes back and is like, this guy says that he was a lowly crabber and he's like, no, he was actually the son of the guy who ran all crabbing. You know, Dunk is teaching Egg about being kind and. And stepping up for people who need help. It is a lone wolf and cub type relationship. And sometimes I think I've kind of resented those because plot armor dictates that the cub can't really get hurt, you know, and.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or in the case of Mando, the cub can't even talk right, this cub.

[Chris Ryan]

But when you put that in the Game of Thrones world, yeah, I wasn't like, this dude's gonna get curb stomped. But I wasn't not like that. I wasn't certain. You know, I was like, this is gonna be a tough scene if this dude is acting with no teeth for the rest of this series.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. But I thought Dentistry in Westeros, I.

[Chris Ryan]

Thought that the way that they did that whole sequence, I mean, first of all, I'm a really. I just. I've said this a lot. I think Finn Bennett is like, really good actor and also like an ace piece of shit on this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Huge Cobra Kai energy to it as well, which I loved. Super, Super Johnny. Yeah, the whole thing was really well staged. Sarah Dina Smith, who's a really talented director.

[Chris Ryan]

The low angle shot of like egg kind of with the classical music, the surging music, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought it was excellent. And again, the 30 minutes you're enjoying it and then to land and leave us on a place that flips the entire series was really, really expertly done. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Because I think if you're not reading the books or if you're not really reading any spoilers or anything like that, you're like, oh, right, this is probably gonna build up like a sports movie. And then Dunk is gonna learn all these lessons from the characters around him and win or come in second. You know what I mean? And it's. Yeah, it's different.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I ask you a real house of our question?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is anyone in Westeros, like, white blonde, other than Targaryens or Bastards of Targaryens? Is the hair that much of a giveaway? I don't remember one way or another.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I think that that is their signature thing from piles of incest.

[Andy Greenwald]

Piles. Evocative. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, those two, they. I think now what has happened over the years is that Targaryens at this point.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Have started marrying other families elsewhere to. For political purposes like do.

[Andy Greenwald]

To retain power because they no longer have.

[Chris Ryan]

Jlore doesn't have blonde hair.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Etc.

[Andy Greenwald]

But that. But that was because. That was in a. That's because, as you educated me last week, this is the era.

[Chris Ryan]

No dragons.

[Andy Greenwald]

No dragons. But still Targaryen rule before things start. No.

[Chris Ryan]

I guess Aryan thinks he is a dragon.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. His name is Aryan.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And he wants to rule a nation.

[Chris Ryan]

He was one of five people to see Melania this week.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I was gonna say. He would. He's met his moment. A couple other details about the. About the episode before we get into the plot. Just another, like, sort of meta observation. Like the two things that you're not supposed to do in show business if you want to have a successful or a long career, is work with children or animals. And the entire first section of this episode is a young boy yelling at a horse who is just nodding along and giving honestly, good performance. Really good performance.

[Chris Ryan]

By thunder.

[Andy Greenwald]

Good horse performance. So is there anything that these guys can't do? Very remarkable. I wanted to shout out Dan Roemer, who.

[Chris Ryan]

He's jamming.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who's jamming? He's a great, great composer. Station 11. Many other things.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you teach your kids the Alice song after you watched this episode?

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't. I didn't. No. They're. Luckily, they're now more down like Gilmore Girls at The moment. Which is funny because Gilmore Girls is just. This is not a spoiler, really. Rife with early 2000s pop culture references. Children are at sea, but guess who's there to pick them up in the great big boats of trivia knowledge?

[Chris Ryan]

Mr. Phantom Planet.

[Andy Greenwald]

Exactly. But yeah, like the fiddle in the opening of this episode, he's doing really fun creative work that again, is like a subtle indication of how the show is not Game of Thrones. Yes, the music is of a world, but they're being creative and creating a different atmosphere with it. It's just very thoughtfully done. A lot of shitting on the show.

[Chris Ryan]

A lot of crapping, a lot of ribbled jokes. But I mean, like Game of Thrones itself. Tossing kids out of windows and brothers and sisters having sex. You know, it's like. It's a pretty racy world.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

As is the one we live in. Apparently.

[Andy Greenwald]

Apparently. As we've learned. Yeah. I guess the only other.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a 30 minute show. So it's like, it's kind of like they eat bacon, egg and cheese sandwiches and hang out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but I had a question about that, too.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

I love. You know, we spent a decade.

[Chris Ryan]

Joe had a problem with the bread to protein ratio.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah. Well, she's. First of all, she's right. But Second, we spent 10 years covering game of Thrones and all I wanted to do was just linger in the spice markets of Essos. I really wanted a little more like a hot pie. Like. So you said bring him back.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know. Do you think they have salt? They have salted. All the salt that I know that they have goes on the beef in order to have a single thing to eat most days. But then when they were cooking those eggs and like in the bread, like, I think it just needs a little. Do you think they're seasoning it?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. I doubt it. I don't know like, what that protein, like, what that meat was. I assume, like Westerosi ham.

[Andy Greenwald]

It reminded me a lot of what I was. An article I read this weekend about Dan Orlovsky's diet.

[Chris Ryan]

It's just chicken tenders, isn't it?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just. It's just chicken tenders and no fruit flavored anything other than fruit.

[Chris Ryan]

That's. I mean, he looks great.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. He looks great. Also, maybe his life's simpler, you know, Like, I don't think he had to.

[Chris Ryan]

Line up to never have to think about what you want to eat. I mean, except when you go to a nice restaurant and you're like, can you make me chicken tenders?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think he goes to a steakhouse. Every restaurant. A lot of restaurants have kids menus. I think that's fine. I don't think he was worried about. I don't think he had fomo. When he saw the pickled nasturtium flowers on the Noma courage bagels pop up. You know what I mean? I think he was like, I'm good.

[Chris Ryan]

Deep crap. You dug that one out. That was great.

[Andy Greenwald]

I made it. I don't think that's what it was, but it probably was.

[Chris Ryan]

So the new episodes of these shows will be going up Friday. I don't think you and I are going to be doing a special emergency episode to cover them on Friday. We'll cover them on Monday after the super bowl. But we'll be back on Thursday to discuss the pit it. And I might ask you to check out Steel.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I've been hearing, hearing talk about this.

[Chris Ryan]

That was pretty good.

[Andy Greenwald]

I watched.

[Chris Ryan]

I watched the first two episodes and I'm like, this is kind of what I want from tv.

[Andy Greenwald]

What is it?

[Chris Ryan]

It's Sophie Turner plays a woman working at like an investment bank that gets robbed in a very spectacular way.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's fun.

[Chris Ryan]

Opening episode is a really great heist. And then there's a sort of spiraling out conspiracy of sort of bad guys and good guys in it. It brings in the government, it brings in cops. It brings in. But she's sort of this central, like Hitchcockian in over her head figure in.

[Andy Greenwald]

The whole thing and what services.

[Chris Ryan]

It's on Amazon prime, which I think has been doing some great programming recently.

[Andy Greenwald]

Theatrical and at home.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

We should tell the people. I think this is smart by you. I mean, you are generally, you know, you're pretty private about your portfolio and your holdings, but I do believe you were well positioned in Sophie Turner stock. I feel like you bought early. And you know what it was.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't really. I just thought she was fine, that's to be clear. Yeah, her reviewing sausages on Instagram, which she only did briefly, but she discussed on the dish with Angela Hartnett, the chef. She has a show on in England, a podcast, but it's basically a TV show. Aren't they all? Where Nick Grimshaw and Angela Hartnett, like, they prepare a meal as sort of requested by a celebrity and then they interview them while they're eating. It's quite charming. Sophie Turner is hilarious on it. Like, she just seems like a great hang. Yeah, she does. She is super English in that she's just Like, I like a Bolognese and otherwise just like a spag bowl. A spag bowl and a curry.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, that's all right. Yeah, I rate that.

[Chris Ryan]

That's her Dan Orlovsky menu.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just think. I just am. I am. I'm genuinely like. I think it's impressive when you commit and then you hold your position. You don't get wavered.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. I don't really know much about her other than, like, I enjoyed her in this show. And.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you're in. And Tomb Raider.

[Chris Ryan]

And Tomb Raider, yeah. Obviously, Lara Croft's a huge character for me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Always has been.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Back to the original consoles that she was on. Right. You were like, finally. I've never played Tomb Raider, my representation of both womanhood and archaeology.

[Chris Ryan]

I was too busy with Max Payne, my brother.

[Andy Greenwald]

You play like, oh, right, Max. That was your solo journey when you were just like. We didn't, like, call each other then. We didn't have cell phones. But the next day at the bar, you'd be like, I was in the dark and a baby was crying.

[Chris Ryan]

That was the closest I've ever come to the McConaughey smoking introduct. Because I was actually smoking. Looking for the sounds of a baby in a dark room in Max Bay.

[Andy Greenwald]

And did Rishi stay with you the whole time?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but he may not have been there. You know what I mean? Who knows?

[Andy Greenwald]

We should have a name for this part at the end of the podcast where we just talk about what we want to talk about.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, we could call it the Watch After Dark if you want.

[Andy Greenwald]

Freestyle five. I don't know. I picked up my older daughter from a sleepover, and I was asking, what'd you guys do? She was like, we had the best time. We watched Play Max Payne. We watched no Close. She was like. She was talking about her friend being further along in Animal Crossing for Nintendo Switch. She's like, I gotta spend more time playing video games. And I was like, you are my child. And then she was like, oh. And we also played this other game that her friend is really into. And she said the name of it, which escapes me. And she's like, let me tell you about it. And I was like, great. We're alone in the car. We got 11 minutes before you go pick up your sister. And she's like, so you play this woman who goes back to her hometown. And I'm just sort of half listening. Cause I was trying to check, make sure I was going the right way. And she's like. And then the family, your extended family who live in the house. Well, the baby falls off a cliff, and you play as the baby going off the cliff, and then the next thing you know, you wake up, and then you're playing the mom who's reacting to the baby who went off the cliff. And then she goes into a closet, and she dies in there. And you play it while she dies. And then I slowly start to turn to her, and I'm like, what is the tenor of this conversation? Because I began the conversation being, like, cool. It sounds really creative.

[Chris Ryan]

But what was the game?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's some, like.

[Chris Ryan]

Cause I. Because here's the thing, because Phoebe plays. My wife plays games where it's like you go. You are solving mysteries inside of a house. Kind of like, there's a few independent ones that are really cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

What was there one called? Like, Gone Home or something like that. But what was this one called? You don't know?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm Googling. Oh, I found it. It's called what Remains of Edith Finch.

[Chris Ryan]

And this is. You google this by being like, through a baby, off a cliff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Video game, Nintendo game, Edith Dead Family.

[Chris Ryan]

What's it rated?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm the king of Google, by the way. That was elite. What is it rated?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Are you concerned about your morals or the morals of my child?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm just wondering how they got access to it or, like, if you have to, like, was it in the. Just a regular Nintendo Stream store or whatever?

[Andy Greenwald]

Stream store. It's made by Annapurna. Shout out the elephants. They got their finger in every piece. It's rated teen for blood, drug references, language, and violence. So it sounds like she's.

[Chris Ryan]

She's got stronger. Made of stronger stuff than you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just can't.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe I can start programming some of her movie nights.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think, honestly, you should. But ever seen Green Room? Like, ever seen. And I'm like, ever seen Greenberg, like, do a double feature? The other thing, this is from my parent corner that I want to run by you. That really blew my mind. And I know for people who have older kids or people who maybe are. Are parenting better, they may be aware of this already. But my younger child was, like, looking at YouTube, which is already a slippery slope, and I realized that every video that she watches has a, like, joking, interviewing the cast of Stranger Things component, but is generally then a split screen of someone playing Roblox, like, turning into squirrels and walking into walls.

[Chris Ryan]

Wait, so.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I was like, so are they commenting on each other? And she's like, no, it's just something different. To look at while I listen, listen.

[Chris Ryan]

Listen to the Stranger Things.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like both they are now, like future generations are going to have wonky eyes because Most of their YouTube content is. We're so doomed.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

That said, maybe on Netflix they could run the rewatchables on half of the screen. Press box on the other half of the screen.

[Chris Ryan]

How often, though? Like, for instance, when you're doing something or watching something or having conversations with your daughters about their video game content, are you also looking at game.

[Andy Greenwald]

You really know how to hurt a guy. I think looking at a beautiful new edition from the New York Review of Books, different than the newspaper, of course, publication. How often am I looking at gamecast?

[Chris Ryan]

How often are you second screening your.

[Andy Greenwald]

Life to the degree to which I no longer remember anything, as evidenced by, like, the. The In Memoriam segment of the Grammys last night where I was like, oh, damn. About people who left us, like six weeks ago.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would say I'm probably doing it to a worrying degree.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You check out any Grammys? No.

[Chris Ryan]

Couldn't care less.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's not for you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was amazing that the best new artist category is just all TikTok turnstile one.

[Chris Ryan]

I saw that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not Best New artist Rock album, right? Yeah. They don't show those during the broadcast.

[Chris Ryan]

That's great. Why would you.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's because all the wheelheads are in Boston. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Much fucking angel dust.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow. This. Kai, what's the oldest sounding segment we've ever done on this podcast?

[Chris Ryan]

This is what you're fucking cutting edge. We're talking about indie gaming.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but we're talking about.

[Chris Ryan]

It's hardcore music.

[Andy Greenwald]

But we're talking about it from a perspective. I'm sorry. I'm talking about it from a perspective of what are they doing? What is this, poison Entering my kids. Not that it's not a beautiful game, but I'm like, I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

In three years, you'd probably be like, I'd play that with you. You're just not ready for her to grow up yet.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's beautiful. Wow. Damn. Just hit me in the heart.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm just saying. But you could go full Simmons, listen and be like, if you're into that, let's watch Poltergeist. Let's watch Halloween.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I don't want to watch this. But that said, this is also the same child who, first of all, they're gonna get into what they're gonna get into as we are evidence of.

[Chris Ryan]

And it works out, as Jim Dyker explains.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. We're all on a Ghost ship might as well have some fun. It was a very memorable hike, which is something we do here in California for those not here and we like on a holiday. And my daughter was like, I finished the book series that I've been reading. I loved it. And I was like, oh, tell me about it. And she's like, well, it's called the Hunger Games. And I was like, cool. And then she went on to tell me, like, I kind of knew the talking points, but I didn't know the detail to which every person is savagely killed in the book. And I think she was eight. She refers to the last Harry Potter book as the one where 54 people die.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you notice experience death as a child? Like in terms of like what you read? Didn't you read comic books? Like Ganosha Happened, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Look at you. Look at you. This is your fucking secret.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not a secret. You want to talk it out? I'm almost done. You. But yeah, but you play have some powers, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

You play the comic book video game stuff very artfully.

[Chris Ryan]

Look, man, honestly, after reading Epstein emails for most of the weekend, I might just go back to Red Dead Redemption and reading X Men.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it's a. I think it's a better choice tapping out. No, I am with you in the sense that I actually don't feel they're going to experience culture and it's within limits. It's okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And they seem fine.

[Chris Ryan]

I try to think if I have anything like equally amusing to share with you about just like life observations.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm getting pretty frustrated with dog walkers in Los Angeles.

[Andy Greenwald]

Whoa.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I feel like we've really like. Like there's just such like a. We've just hit such a huge problem with like just the volume. Like every person has a dog now, it seems like. And they all basically walk down my street. And I don't know what I hate more like the half hearted attempts to pick their shit off of what is constitutes my lawn, which is like the piece of green that is outside of my house. Or the fact that every single one of them walking their dogs is completely ignoring stop signs and will just like walk into intersections no matter what while looking at their phone. And I just need you guys to do better. Help me help you not hit you by my car.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is again incredible because the pivot from I went to a hardcore festival this weekend to yelling at pedestrian corners. This is why, like, you know, you can tame multitudes.

[Chris Ryan]

LA also makes me feel empty. It's this like the quotidian problems that I have when I come back here versus, like, like, you know, I fought the cold to go see Tiger Shaw, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but you don't like people. Long term listeners know that. You have an issue with people running wild in your neighborhood, driving too fast. That was the whole thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Once I got in trouble for that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, right.

[Chris Ryan]

Guy chased me down because he said I blew through a stop sign. I was like, I slowed down. It's a California rule.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that. Is that allowed?

[Chris Ryan]

Like the California stop? Yeah.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

You.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is it like California sober?

[Chris Ryan]

Come on. You know what this is? I've gotten a traffic ticket for California stopping.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

They got a lot of stop signs here, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

With good reason. Society keeps telling us to go, go, go. Why not use that time?

[Chris Ryan]

That's what Karen Bass is doing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just slow down. Put the second screen away, man. Just be present in your life. Think about that, Malcolm. Jamal Warner was the first.

[Chris Ryan]

You never know. There might be another Giannis podcast out there that you haven't listened to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Don't get me started on that.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah, we didn't talk about pg.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. What do you think?

[Chris Ryan]

I. I can't comment. I can't comment because you.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know this.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I don't know. And I just feel like it's just. It's all too vague. You know what I mean? I wouldn't want to be like, how dare he betray us?

[Andy Greenwald]

So you're speaking about, for people uninterested.

[Chris Ryan]

An important piece of the Philadelphia 76ers renaissance that we're experiencing. He was good the other night, which.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is why they immediately drug tested him. Yeah, but like he said, I was questioning renaissance. But yes, he has been playing well.

[Chris Ryan]

Paul George got suspended for 25 games for taking an illegal substance. And in his statement was just like, I have been working on my mental health.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And was not diligent in checking certain things, and I accept full responsibilities for my actions. You can speculate all you want about what that means in relationship to getting a drug violation, but yeah, there's a lot of conspiracy thinking about this because.

[Andy Greenwald]

It saved the money in the luxury.

[Chris Ryan]

Tax, but it also takes Paul George relatively off the board as a trade piece. I don't want.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't want those trades to happen. I. I just think that it's a. It's a relatively relatable mistake that he didn't read the fine print on the back of the mojito flavored Zins, so. Which is also why you're not playing in the league anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm getting served like, some. I. Obviously, I know why I'm getting served this, but it's like pouches that are not nicotine but are, like, pure focus.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I'm like, what's in them?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Right. Should I find out?

[Andy Greenwald]

The slippery slope I'm on is that now 70% of the reels that get suggested to me are just fully Italian cooking videos. Not like, here's how to make pasta, but they're in Italian.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I imagine four Italians, which I'm really enjoying. Like, I'm kind of getting the vibe.

[Chris Ryan]

She'S sighing over there.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think she's loving, but. But now this isn't. You can cut. We can end the podcast. I just wanted to tell you that they're starting to get. They're starting to veer a little, like, Turkish. Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I know what that means.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't either, but I'm like, where.

[Chris Ryan]

Else is this like. Like, hair transplants or, like, just, like, Turkish food?

[Andy Greenwald]

I just want to know if. Yeah, they're like, ah, this is like a beautiful lamb skewer, I imagine. I don't speak Turkish, but, like, give me time.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I wonder what it's the gateway to. Like, what's next?

[Chris Ryan]

Is it having 34 cats?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Or is it soft authoritarianism? I don't. I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

Next time on the Watch, we'll get to the bottom of all of that, thanks to K. Could we make, like.

[Andy Greenwald]

A skinny bundle where people can listen to the podcast without this?

[Chris Ryan]

Can I add something?

[Andy Greenwald]

Jesus.

[Chris Ryan]

New Nancy Myers movie with Penelope Cruz. Kieran Culkin, Jude Law. Are they actually. They're shooting this this spring, right? Like, announced Christmas Day 27.

[Andy Greenwald]

Have they.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow.

[Andy Greenwald]

This all just happened while we were.

[Chris Ryan]

Recording Kieran Culkin, Penelope Cruz and who? Jude Law.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jude Law back. Is it Flow Day two? Were there any plot?

[Chris Ryan]

No, it's like she's. She's. She has, like, one last. I think it's a very.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's Bildungs roman, like, Ella McKay kind of vibes. Like.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, no, I think it's like a. It's like a. There's something about. I thought it was Emma Mackie is in it too. Hell yeah, brother.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Macy Sans.

[Chris Ryan]

I like her.

[Andy Greenwald]

I do, too. Yeah, she. It's not her fault. You know she made that movie. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Who could have known?

[Andy Greenwald]

Who? Who among us?

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you, kya.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you, kya.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks. Chime in whenever. Especially when we're, like, in the ninth inning like this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you have anything you'd like to say about, like, video games or the mutant massacre from the early 90s, X.

[Chris Ryan]

Men comics or what you're reading or what you're eating or how you're driving.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or how he's driving.

[Chris Ryan]

I just finished over this weekend Among Friends by Hal Abbott, which I did not love. Okay, so. So no strong wreck. That is a perfect 110th minute of the podcast. It was okay to be like, didn't quite like it.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a book.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hey, thanks, brother.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks to Kai. Thanks to Kai. Thanks to our listeners. We'll be back on Thursday once the pit drops. We'll be up after that, and we'll have some other stuff for you that night.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can't wait.