HBO’s Wave of Renewals. Plus, ‘The Beast in Me,’ ‘The Chair Company’ E6, and ‘I Love LA’ E3.

Summary

The Watch – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Watch (The Ringer)
Hosts: Chris Ryan & Andy Greenwald
Date: November 20, 2025
Episode Title: HBO’s Wave of Renewals. Plus, ‘The Beast in Me,’ ‘The Chair Company’ E6, and ‘I Love LA’ E3.

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Overview

In this episode, Andy and Chris discuss major industry news—HBO’s flurry of show renewals amidst potential corporate sales and streaming mergers. The conversation then pivots to reviews and impressions of recent TV series, including Netflix’s The Beast in Me, All Her Fault, Down Cemetery Road, The Chair Company, and I Love LA. The duo reflect on the changing rhythms and health of the TV industry post-strike, the current glut of “pretty good” shows, the machinery of renewals and streaming strategies, and the joys and quirks of character-driven comedies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Industry Upheaval: Warner Brothers Discovery & HBO's Future

• Corporate Bids & Streaming Takeovers

  • Chris and Andy break down rumors of outside bids for Warner Brothers Discovery from Paramount (possibly with Middle Eastern investment that was later denied), Comcast/Universal, and Netflix.
  • They discuss how these bids are for various pieces of the company (linear TV vs. streaming vs. studio assets) and speculate on the odd scenarios possible if the company is broken into parts (e.g., HBO content separated from the Warner Bros. library it draws on).
  • "So much of HBO's agenda and schedule is defined by proprietary IP coming from Warner Brothers. What would happen? Would future seasons of the IT show be on Netflix?" — Andy [09:46]

• HBO’s Programming Changes & IP Focus

  • Kasey Bloys (HBO’s chief) made key renewal announcements, which the hosts interpret as a signal of ongoing stability despite corporate chaos.
  • The shift to mostly IP-based series (e.g., from the Warner Bros. stable) is partly because studios now keep their movies, eroding HBO's old model of movie premieres.
  • "He said that the old version, the previous iterations of HBO could rely on a robust post theatrical slate... Now, it's almost all original program..." — Andy [11:05]

2. Renewal Announcements & HBO Programming Cadence

• Major Renewals Confirmed

  • Task is coming back with Brad Inglesby and Mark Ruffalo, rewarding its breakout success.
  • Chair Company and I Love LA, two comedies, both renewed for season 2.
  • Knight of the Seven Kingdoms gets a season 2 before season 1 airs.
  • House of the Dragon is renewed for a fourth season (possibly final), and White Lotus is officially set in France.
  • "Today's... batch of announcements from Kasey Bloys suggests there will be an HBO going forward." — Chris [10:30]
  • Discussion on why shows like Task and True Detective sometimes struggle with follow-up seasons and the anthology format.

• Programming Rhythm & Audience Trust

  • Andy praises the strategic value of early renewals: "It's about building in some continuity, giving them creatively a chance to figure out what's going on, but also to just be back on the air..." [21:52]
  • There's nostalgia and hope for the pre-pandemic, pre-strike rhythm: "This feels like a real return to pre-strike, almost pre-Covid behaviors... there is stability. We're building from a place of strength." — Chris [21:56]

3. State of TV: The "Pretty Good But Not Great" Era

• Volume Without Standouts

  • Both hosts note an abundance of quality shows—Death by Lightning, Down Cemetery Road, The Beast in Me, All Her Fault, The Chair Company, etc.—but few new “headliners.”
  • Andy notes: “I feel like I like a lot of stuff and don't love anything... a little bit overwhelmed by the sheer amount that kind of got dropped out at once here.” [24:20]
  • Yet, Chris feels there’s a healthy “cadence” and admires that Netflix is producing varied and worthwhile genre TV: “This is what I want Netflix to be doing.” [26:28]

• Format, Pacing, & Structure

  • Both confess to falling asleep or drifting during shows—sign of both age and viewing glut. There’s praise for shorter series (e.g., 4-episode Death by Lightning) over unwieldy 8–10 episode “limited” dramas.
  • "When we're budgeting our time as viewers... eight episodes... for a story that's moving only in one direction, towards an ending—eight is a lot." — Andy [48:18]

4. Show Deep Dives & Critiques

a. All Her Fault [30:04]

• Based on Andrea Mara’s novel, starring Sarah Snook, Jake Lacy, Dakota Fanning.
• Described as a “female-led crime show” with true crime vibes.
• Chris’s wife “compulsively watched it”—“She thought it was a bit silly in places, but it was like, I must get to the end.” [31:33]

b. The Beast in Me [33:41 - 48:18]

• Netflix drama starring Claire Danes (Aggie Wiggs, a New Yorker journalist rocked by tragedy) and Matthew Rhys (her enigmatic, possibly dangerous neighbor Niles Jarvis).
• Satirical elements, slight camp tone; touches on highbrow NYC media, true crime tropes, and dark suburban secrets.
• “It is pitched at a degree that is perilously close to camp... it's tough. There's so many cooks in the kitchen here.” — Andy [39:03]
• Uneven but stylish, the hosts question if the show is knowingly commenting on our appetite for streaming thrillers.
• “Tonally, Danes is doing Claire Danes... and Matthew Rhys is doing something very different… they're not always in lockstep.” — Chris [42:45]
• Both are curious but cautious about investing in all 8 episodes.

c. Down Cemetery Road [50:42]

• Oxford-based drama (drawn from Mick Herron’s books), strong on atmosphere and main characters.
• Some viewers have noted a drop in quality/clarity after episode 2 as the plot gets busier and more convoluted, but Andy and Chris still find it enjoyable for the solid leads and character work.
• “The two leads are so good. And I just. So far, I don't find it cloying that the show becomes charmed by ancillary characters.” — Andy [52:25]

d. The Chair Company E6 [54:36]

• Chris and Andy are full of love for this “weird, weird comedy” that’s reminiscent in part of Twin Peaks for its blend of mundane absurdity and sudden horror.
• Praised for: wildly inventive tone, specific comedic voice, standout supporting turns (e.g., Lou Diamond Phillips).
• “I have no fucking idea what's going to happen on this show and I honestly, honestly don't care. I'm delighted by it.” — Andy [56:41]

e. I Love LA E3 [56:44]

• A satire of Gen Z/young millennial influencer culture starring Odessa Zion, Rachel Sennott, and Josh Hutcherson.
• The hosts grapple with connecting to its humor and meta-ness, though Chris especially praises Odessa’s performance: “The Odessa Zion character can go in a lot of different directions, and she's phenomenal, and she's a dynamo, force of nature.” [63:06]
• Andy finds it too "meta" and lacking a clear emotional anchor, yet both see potential as it finds its footing.
• “Think of this more like Entourage and How to Make it in America than girls.” — Andy [60:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On HBO’s Renewals Amid Chaos:
  "Not only that, all of these moves really feel like a... reasonable and respectable attempt to put some order around an industry and perhaps even a company that is in chaos. This feels like responsible stewardship." — Andy [19:55]

• On TV Glut:
  "This is a funny time where I feel like I like a lot of stuff and don't love anything." — Chris [24:20]

• On Streaming Algorithms & TV Formula:
  "There is an algorithmic formula, obviously. And so anytime anything deviates a little bit from it... that's good... for the industry." — Andy [26:52]

• On Modern Streaming Structures:
  "When we're budgeting our time as viewers... the shape of this for seven more hours feels unwieldy... more promising than if it was four to six." — Andy [46:58]

• Comedy Praise:
  "I love this show so much... Because the thing about Twin Peaks is that it's fucking hilarious, and it always was. And David Lynch's stuff is all funny until suddenly... it's horrifying. And this show exists on the same frequency." — Andy [55:13]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [06:24] Warner Brothers Discovery bids, streaming industry shake-ups
• [10:13] HBO's new IP-heavy strategy; programming challenges
• [13:24] Confirmation of Task renewal and discussion on True Detective
• [18:21] More renewals: I Love LA, Chair Company, Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, House of the Dragon, White Lotus
• [24:18] “State of TV” discussion—industry is flooded with “pretty good” but not great shows
• [30:04] All Her Fault impressions
• [33:41] The Beast in Me detailed discussion
• [50:51] Down Cemetery Road analysis
• [54:36] The Chair Company E6 review
• [56:44] I Love LA E3 review

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Conclusion

Chris and Andy bring characteristic wit and critical acumen as they traverse a complicated, changing TV landscape—one where streaming titans, beloved HBO originals, and offbeat comedies not only coexist but shape-shift amid corporate chaos. Their reviews balance honest critique with affection, drawing on decades of fandom and professional critique. At the heart is a shared yearning for rhythm, creativity, and surprise in TV—whether it’s the next big drama or a weird, beautiful comedy about chair salesmen.

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Selected and accurate to conversation. For a full breakdown, listen to individual show discussions using the timestamps above.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Salty Cheezy. Cheez It Crackers. Should this whole podcast just be me eating Cheez It? That would be a top notch podcast. You could hear them crunching in my mouth. You could think about how salty and savory and delicious they are. You could just get Cheez it on the brain. Oh, man, those Cheez it cravings, they get you. Anyway, what was I talking about?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, Cheez It. Yeah, Cheez It Crackers. Go check them out. As a raider scavenging a derelict world, you settle into an underground settlement. But now you must return to the surface where arc machines roam. If you're brave enough, who knows what you might find. Arc Raiders, a multiplayer extraction adventure video game. Buy now for PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X and S and PC rated T for teen. I need support staff to clear the room.

[B]

Stand up and walk now.

[A]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio preparing his bear hug for Warner Brothers discovery, it's Andy Green Waltz.

[B]

Have you talked to our guys, our finance guys?

[A]

They're working. They're moving some things around.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you ever move things around? Do you have to move things around?

[B]

I'm not liquid like you. Yeah, no, I. I've been told that there's a thing waiting for me in some unknown point on the horizon called retirement. I guess that might be there for me. And my assumption is when I get there, I can maintain my lifestyle in Los Angeles for six to nine weeks. Okay.

[A]

You can go to Courage Bagels twice.

[B]

And then that's it. And that's a wrap.

[A]

And Chris Ryan, the Tommy and Tim John, this patch today on the Watch, we're going to be talking a little bit about the Netflix series the Beast in Me and some other stuff. I love LA Chair company.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'll have a. A little bit of a note about all her fault series.

[B]

I thought you were going to say I have an interview with. And I got so excited that you were going to.

[A]

I have an interview with Christian Bale and Leonardo DiCaprio. They're. They're just waiting outside. They wanted. They wanted it to be a surprise.

[B]

No, I get that.

[A]

Many people are asking how I feel about Christian Bale's apparent imminent casting in Heat two. I approve.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Yeah, this is good.

[B]

What good? What role is he playing?

[A]

This is the thing. I still think that there are shoes to drop, twists to be experienced, turns to be made in, like, how this all shakes out. With who's playing what in what timeline, whether they're going to like, is Pacino coming back and being de aged. Who's is Bradley Cooper in this movie? Who's playing young Wingro in the flesh?

[B]

You've called me that on occasion.

[A]

I think I have, but I'm keeping my eye on it. Obviously. A lot of things to keep our eye on today. There's a lot of news.

[B]

Do you think is there a chance that Heat 2 is going to be done rep theater style where they're going to switch parts? Like they're going to do one version of it with everyone playing one part and then when Philip Seymour Hoffman and John C. Reilly did True West.

[A]

Yeah. And they would trade off parts every other week.

[B]

Which one's better as Austin? Are they going to do it like that?

[A]

So then one night, Austin Butler is Cherles and then that other night.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, that'd be good. I dig that.

[B]

That would be. That would be kind of like an afterlife scenario for you where every decision.

[A]

Would be made before we start.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But like every day, wild variations on this.

[B]

It's kind of a beautiful thought that that's how maybe you would know after like two weeks that you are in some sort of beautiful, lost, esque final chapter, that you just show up every night at like Vista with your beautiful wife next to you and some popcorn and the popcorn never runs out. And there's heat three and Heat four and heat five. You're like, this is so sick.

[A]

Just come on.

[B]

Yeah, that would be nice. It's okay to get emotional when we talk about things that matter to you.

[A]

I'm getting a little choked up.

[B]

Can we. Before we get into the TV stuff, can I. Can I just address one other elephant in the room?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Which is our social media strategy.

[A]

This is like the fourth time, fifth shows that you've done this.

[B]

Well, I'm just noticing some trends. Okay. I'm just noticing some trends now. I am. What's the word? Punching bag. You know, if I go anywhere, like, deviate from conventional wisdom.

[A]

This is very trumpy of you, by the way. Thank you.

[B]

It's working. There I am on Front street, just slings and arrows right now, hypothetically, let's say my best friend and co host sits down in front of a live camera and a live mic and says that he had played Legend of Zelda on a PC.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let's just say he did that. I'm not naming names. Okay. A lot of people thought he was a very bad man. You know, there are many people who weren't fans of that man. You know who said that? I don't know his name.

[A]

Wait, they thought Legend of Zelda link was a bad man? Or me.

[B]

No, I was. I was doing full Trump, okay? Talking about a murder journalist. But perhaps maybe I'm veering too far from the agenda, which is to say this section was clipped. The part that was clipped was you saying you've played Legend of Zelda. You're fucking boss mode at shinobi. And when you travel the streets of Japan, whether it's Shibuya or all the way down to Okinawa, people come up and bow to you recognizing your ex.

[A]

How could I have a shinobi?

[B]

What was clipped? And I don't know whether we're looking at Kaya or we're looking at who's not here today to defend herself or Kai.

[A]

Kaya got the social media flu. She was just like, I'm not coming in today.

[B]

So Kai just cleaned it up a little bit for you? He sanewashed it. Now what I want to know is how do I get a relationship like that with Kai? Because I thought we were cool back from sticking the stick the landing days.

[A]

And yet I don't know what to tell you, man. I mean, as far as the record goes, that's what I said, you know?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Speaking of our social media, you can follow us at Instagram, at thewatchpod, you can email [e-mail] you can watch us on the Ringer-TV YouTube channel, and you can also watch us on Spotify, where I hope you're listening to us, but you can also listen to us on a number of other platforms. Pirate radio in East London, you know, we're part of the shipping news right now. We're part of the shipping forecasts.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

I have a bunch of news for you today because it's a strange day for Warner Brothers Discovery. Not only is this the deadline for the first bids for Warner Brothers Discovery from. From outside networks, so we're expecting bids from Paramount. Paramount was rumored to have been involving some. Some Middle Eastern sovereign wealth.

[B]

I saw that. Wow.

[A]

They have since said some Gulf sovereign wealth. And they have said, hey, that's actually. That's not. The reporting is off on that one. There's Paramount. I think they're going to try and buy the whole thing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then there's Comcast, Universal. Our boys, we're big. We're big Xfinity guys.

[B]

Oh, because of Philadelphia.

[A]

Just.

[B]

They're just some dreamers from Philly like us. You Think, think Brian Roberts goes by Bad Brother.

[A]

Do you think Brian Roberts listens to our pod? Is like, they fucking did it, these guys. I knew. I always believed in him.

[B]

Yep. I'm going to say yes, Comcast is.

[A]

Going to be apparently making a bid, I would imagine, for the streaming service in the studio. I don't think about the linear. The linear assets. And then there is this Netflix offer, which is apparently incoming, which is for, I would imagine, the same, the studio and the streaming service. And today there was some reporting that Netflix would maintain Warner Brothers theatrical presence.

[B]

That's what they told Rian Johnson.

[A]

This would be different. I don't know why they would do this, I guess, but I.

[B]

Is it like Amazon with mgm, which they've also claimed they're doing the same thing?

[A]

Well, they are doing that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They are also putting a lot of stuff on streaming. But anyway, while all this is happening, Casey Bloys made some. Made some renewal announcements today.

[B]

Before we get into that, just on the previous point, and I don't have any insight necessarily, but I have a podcast. So let's see where this goes. There is a. I don't know whether it's a rumor or whether it's a prediction or whether it's a real possibility that some of these assets may be split. Right. Do you want to talk through that? You sort of. You alluded to it.

[A]

Yes. Well, okay. So initially, Warner Brothers had talked about how they were going to split the company up in the first place. That there was going to be.

[B]

That was their 26.5.

[A]

Like, yeah, there was going to be. The linear networks were going to be split off. I believe your boy Gunner was going to be running that. And I don't know what you do with a bunch of linear cable networks in 2025, but I'm sure that they probably would figure something creative out with that.

[B]

Sure. I mean, I think there's, there's.

[A]

That's the discovery stuff. Right. That's all their.

[B]

And the, the cynical spin on that is that it. That was a perfectly legal within the financial markets attempt to decouple the more valuable parts of the company from the crippling debt of the other parts of the company.

[A]

And would you say arguably get out from under some of the more politically volatile things like having cnn.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

In terms of getting a merger to go through or getting a sale to go through?

[B]

I don't know. Because initially the split had nothing to do with another takeover. Initially, this was a plan that.

[A]

Yeah. Make us more financially nimble. Spruced.

[B]

Yes. And now. And so now, ahead of that actual division happening, suddenly it's open season. Yes. And it's unclear whether some of these bids are for parts or for the whole. Meaning there could be an outcome potentially. Right. Where let's say Comcast Universal buys HBO and Netflix ends up with the movie studio. Right.

[A]

I suppose, yeah.

[B]

And in that version, one of the many things that seems confusing and complicated is. And we'll get to it now when we talk about what Kasey was saying in New York today. So much of HBO's agenda and schedule is defined by proprietary IP coming from Warner Brothers. What would happen? Would future seasons of the IT show be on?

[A]

Very good question.

[B]

Netflix.

[A]

I hadn't thought about that. He said something about IP shows, but in a different way.

[B]

Yeah. So today. So that we can. So we don't know what's going on with that. But bids were due today. Kasey was speaking in New York and had a lot of news about renewals in the state of the company that he is currently employed by.

[A]

I gotta say, everything about both we talked about this when Peacock or when Universal Comcast made their big play for Taylor Sheridan. Is that today's list, like, you know, batch of announcements from KC Boy suggests there will be an HBO going forward.

[B]

Yeah. I mean one, he has to behave that way because as we know and he's talked about even on this podcast, like his job is scheduling for 2028 and beyond. So as far as he's concerned, there's a plan in place and he can only work with what's in front of him. I thought the most interesting thing about their current strategy, separate and apart from the financial shenanigans going on behind the scenes, was that point about why so much IP programming. And I thought it was a really. Whether this was a market tested answer, 50% true answer, or a genuine hundred percent true answer, I thought it was compelling. He said that the old version, the previous iterations of HBO could rely on a robust post theatrical slate because they made deals with studios to debut their movies on television.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They had a deal with Universal for a long time and that the Saturday night new movie that they would broadcast was a big deal for their program.

[A]

That there's actually an arc of time where you can watch their coming soon on hbo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there would be a time where it was like here's this Batman movie or whatever and now it's almost all original program with maybe like one or two movies. Yeah.

[B]

So I thought that was pretty interesting. And those movies were not Cheap. I mean they were not the same as like a season of House of the Dragon, but they were not cheap to have those output deals. And so he was saying that having guaranteed having the movies coming only from Warner Brothers and then they have a deal with A24 having the IP movie, sorry, the IP series drawn from Warner Brothers helps sort of shore up their schedule in a way in terms of familiar, familiar images on their screen being able to maximize the deals that they are now able to do. I hadn't really thought about that in terms of what was no longer available.

[A]

To me that he mentioned is I wonder whether the cable, the streaming networks are actually or the movie, the traditional movie networks, you know, like your Showtimes and Your and your HBOs were damaged at all by just the sheer lack of volume on movies. You know, like the fact that there weren't that many programmers coming out from studios anymore, to use an old fashioned term. But you know, you're like kind of 98 minute genre movie that you know, would become a rewatchable 10 years later. There's those aren't going to cable anymore because they're either made straight for streaming or there's such a wide variety of streaming networks competing for the rights for whatever movies there are out there. Or most studios have a streaming deal with the exception of like I guess Sony, which usually I think had like a reliable partner. I can't remember who it is off the top of my head. In any case. Yeah, I think that that that changed their business significantly. There were a lot of other announcements. The biggest one for our purposes is probably the fact that we got confirmation that task is coming back.

[B]

We, I think we, we knew this a little bit, but we didn't know it when we talked to Brad Inglesby a month ago.

[A]

No, but I will note that many people saw that it said season Finale.

[B]

Not series finale and that they never use the language of limited series intentionally. So this was baked in a little bit. Although I' sure if this show hadn't taken off ratings wise the way that it did and Casey gave some data about how it's the fastest growing blah, blah, blah, they could have been proud of one season and moved on. No question. I'd like to think I never want to overstate our, the volume of our voices within the industry. But I do like to think that the incredibly compelling case that I made on that podcast as to why this show should never ever be brought back was kind of in the same way that my negative criticism of the first season of the Leftovers really inspired Damon Lindelof. I feel like me saying definitely not just lit a creative fire in Brad or in Casey.

[A]

Dude, when you're driving around and you're in traffic or you're like, this whole town got em.

[B]

Yeah, that's me. That's me. So where are you? How are you feeling about this? So task coming back. Brad Inglesby writing, creating, same production team, Mark Ruffalo coming back. That's all we know.

[A]

Yes. Do you think I'm very pro this? I'm very pro. The continuing adventures of Tom Brandis I am curious whether the next iteration of this series, I assume that Inglesby has pitched some story, you know, because I don't think HBO would be like, yes, no matter what. They've turned down bigger properties, you know, they've turned down chances to revive other things.

[B]

What I imagine is it's similar to Dave Dombrowski at the winter meetings being like, there's a path to success if we re sign Schwaber. A path to success if we re sign Schwaber and real muto. And then there's just like Kyle Tucker, I guess. I don't know. You know what I mean? Caution to the wind. So I feel like that's, that's like.

[A]

Casey Bloys looking at like the Jon Snow show. It's like Kyle tucker, who knows?

[B]

$400 million probably equivalent, I would hope.

[A]

I guess is the right word to say that tonally or at least emotionally, they mine different territory. Because I, I think that this happened with True Detective a little bit where the second season, which is much maligned, although I have kind of a soft spot for it.

[B]

I'm with you.

[A]

I actually like, you know, the first three seasons are True Detective. I have no notes.

[B]

You like. I know that was cute the way you tried to pretend that.

[A]

Part of the problem was that like you were trying to get other characters to speak in the voice of Matthew McConaughey. Right. Like that that sort of intellectual, philosophical landscape was being transported onto these other people. The Vince Vaughn character, the Taylor Kitsch character. There was some cool shit. But I'm just saying, like, it doesn't go one to one. And I would even be into task not having like a Heat esque adversary for Tom. And look, I also, I, I was joking about this before, but the mayor crossover is sitting out there.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And you know, I don't know anything about that. People have obviously asked Brad Inglesby about that and I think they've asked Kate Winslet about that.

[B]

And what did she say?

[A]

I think she was like, I'd love to come back and play her.

[B]

She's like, I would break that news only on my favorite podcast.

[A]

Good hang.

[B]

Good Hang with Amy Fuller.

[A]

I trust them to put together an amazing cast and a cool story.

[B]

Yeah. And I think you're right to bring up True Detective as a concern for anthology series, especially with that show. What became not just famous, but what I think the expectation that was created was, was a similar dynamic between two stars. And then there was the. There was the meme on Twitter that was really fun about, you know, any picture of two people together was True Detective season two or season three or whatever. This has the correct chemistry, I think, in that it is a returning show with a format that invites ensemble and different styles of storytelling. It feels anthologized and that it won't necessarily be the Dark Hearts or a similar setup. But you have Ruffalo playing.

[A]

Do we have any. We have the. We have no. Like the Dark Hearts are like Dark.

[B]

Hearts are in disarray. You met the New York Times headline by Maggie Haberman. Dark hearts in disarray.

[A]

The Star Wars Crawl, Episode two.

[B]

Somehow Perry has returned.

[A]

Somehow Perry.

[B]

He's so sick. All right.

[A]

Yeah, the Dark Freddy's still out there. It would be cool if Inglesby cast his eye on urban Philadelphia like the.

[B]

I think you're missing something. I think the real red herring in season one is the little magician kid. Like he has access to all kinds.

[A]

Of dark magic with the Potter crossover.

[B]

I'm about to say as someone who's working on a show that is just rife with dark magic, it's all hbo, baby.

[A]

A couple of other renewal announcements from Casey Bl today at the HBO Was this just like upfronts? What were they doing?

[B]

I didn't even notice a media event. Just making a media announcement.

[A]

I love LA and the chair company to comedies. You laughed when I said that. I guess we'll get into that later.

[B]

Two 30 minute things.

[A]

Both renewed for their second seasons. Typically that that usually happens like the day after or the day of their finales or around the finales. The renewal announcements. But he made those announcements. Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is also going to have a second season. That's before it's first obviously a layup. We are getting a fourth season of House of the Dragon. Ryan Condal has said previously that the fourth season would be the last season. Casey Bloys said we'll talk about it. He also spoke like you said about that down market impact of fewer movies.

[B]

What about White Lotus.

[A]

Is White Lotus coming back soon?

[B]

Well, no, he officially confirmed it's set in France. Oh, yeah, that had been reported, but he confirmed it.

[A]

I also, there was one other really interesting tidbit that he even. I thought it was interesting. They commented on the fact that they have had the meeting about Poker Face.

[B]

They had the conversation. He said that they had the initial meeting when it was Natasha Leone. They took the meeting on that show and that they've chatted about it.

[A]

So you're making a distinction between meeting and conversation? Yeah, Well, I didn't say who he met with.

[B]

Oh, you're saying he. Like a Quaker meeting, perhaps he stood up and said only Peter Dinklage, in the spirit of the light within us, can take on the iconic role of Charlie Kail.

[A]

There is that of Dinklage in all of us.

[B]

Beautiful. I'd like to think that's true. I think that all of this is interesting in the spirit of the way you initially framed it, which is Casey's up there acting like there's still going to be an hbo. Yes. Not only that, all of these moves really feel like a no shade. Like an. Like a very reasonable and respectable attempt to put some order around an industry and perhaps even a company that is in chaos. Like this feels like responsible stewardship in the sense that the early renewals for the Game of Thrones shows creates a world in which there will be a Game of Thrones show on every year for the next three years, which was the mandate that was declared way back when the aborted Naomi Watts prequel series was filmed.

[A]

What was that called again? Bloodmoon.

[B]

No, there were a bunch of. I don't know if we ever heard the official title. I think that may have been the working draft title. But was it. It went away.

[A]

Well, they shot it.

[B]

Yes, but I'm saying. But it never went to the phase of. So Night of the Seven Kingdoms coming January and House of the Dragon coming in the summer and then Night of the Seven Kingdoms coming back quickly in 27, which means they've clearly already well down the road of second season production, or at least pre production. And then House of the dragon in 28. So that guarantees that kind of repetition. Similarly, like Chair Company, which I fucking love. Wildly robust numbers, which kind of surprised me because that felt much more in the. Like somebody somewhere, something for us kind of.

[A]

I think. I think you should leave is like pretty popular. It's. I think for a certain cohort out there, it's like that. This is like if Anchorman was on every week.

[B]

That's how I feel. I love it. So early renewal makes sense. I love l. A super early renewal. But again, I think it's about building in some continuity, giving them creatively a chance to figure out what's going on, but also to just be back on the air to give these shows.

[A]

I think this feels like a real return to pre strike, almost pre Covid behaviors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, let's just like, let's. We have a roster of things. There is stability. We're building. We're building from a place of strength. Like you said. Like, we have these cornerstone shows. We know what's coming.

[B]

And I think there's just like. That's the word I want to say again is cadence. Like, there should be a cadence to. It doesn't have to be in the fall new shows, but people's relationships to shows should have a slightly dependable rhythm to it. And nothing is going to be as dependable as the pit, which, you know, we're two months away from having back in our lives. But.

[A]

And industry.

[B]

And industry. But. But. But even industry is like a big gap between some seasons and then an opportunity to get back on the air quicker if they rush scripts and they do it and you know what I mean? Like, it's. We don't often, Often have a window into how, like the wink, wink renewals, like, get the room going.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Versus dead stop. Let's fire up the engine again.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it is nice to see the passion in my voice comes not just from the HBO of it, but, like, I am hoping that a lot of these other streamers do deeply understand the need for that and are responding accordingly with their internal reviews.

[A]

Did he say anything about true detective Momdani country?

[B]

Oh, oh, right. Supposed to be there, right?

[A]

In Queens? Yeah.

[B]

Oh, so you think that the two things leaving New York are Bill Ackman and the true detective franchise? Like, that's.

[A]

He's staying, dude.

[B]

Ackman. Ackman staying.

[A]

I think he was like, what didn't.

[C]

That was.

[A]

All those guys bent the knee. Like, after, when, like, he won. They were like, I'm ready to work with you, brother.

[B]

I think it's more than. From what I understand, from a distance, it seemed like Ackman, you know, his thoughts turned inward. And that's when he started posting about, like, gentlemen, here's how to meet a nice lady in the world.

[A]

He was doing the secret.

[B]

You approach them and you say, would you. Would you permit me to meet you?

[A]

Wait, it's not the secret. What was the big pickup Artist thing.

[B]

The game.

[A]

The game, Yeah.

[B]

I like you pretending you don't know about that. I remember you and Mystery cruising the weho bars.

[A]

I never was good at picking up girls. I never had pickup lines. I never had game like that. I was just like, I'll just be myself.

[B]

You'd just be like, would you like some of these cigarettes? I'm smoking six at a time, basically. Well, I believe believe the game was all predicated on negging, which is not our vibe.

[A]

No, no. I'm an ally.

[B]

Certain television shows perhaps I could turn negative on. I have no updates on the new true detective.

[A]

Okay. I wanted to ask you about the state of television. Right. Right at this very, very instant.

[B]

Get a drink of my green tea.

[A]

So you and I have talked about in the last couple of weeks, Death by Lightning, Down Cemetery Road, the Morning show.

[B]

Oh, yeah, we gotta talk about Down Cemetery Road.

[A]

I love la, the Chair Company, Landman, lots of different. Apple, Paramount, Netflix, all of these things kind of. With the exception of, I guess, Morning show, which has been on for the last couple of months. Apple is like, really more behaving more like an HBO where they. They put their stuff out weekly and everything. This is a funny time where I feel like I like a lot of stuff and don't love anything. And I a little bit overwhelmed by the sheer amount that kind of got dropped out seemingly at once here. Obviously, Pluribus, we forgot to mention, but I almost put that in a category of its. Of its own.

[B]

Did you say Lowdown too? We were. We were all over that. Low down.

[A]

We know. I mean, like, yeah, I'm talking right now since. Since Lowdown, I guess because we were doing Lowdown and a couple of other things pretty. Pretty faithfully for task.

[B]

Right?

[A]

But this moment of, like, pretty good. And we're gonna talk about the new shows that we just. We just chucked out the. The beast in me and I'll mention all her fault. But, like, I was wondering whether or not you almost would prefer an easier separation of wheat and chaff. Like, when it's all like, oh, do I keep watching Death by Lighting? Do I keep watching Beast of Me? Do I keep watching, like, this stuff? Is it easier for you to sort through it when it's like, oh, clearly this is not for me.

[B]

Like, clearly, here's the headliner of the moment.

[A]

Well, I guess that's up to us to determine what the headliner of the moment is.

[B]

I would say without stepping on the conversation we're going to have about some of these shows. I feel. I actually feel the opposite. I actually feel good about the relative health at this snapshot of the industry in which Just stay on Netflix, that at this moment, there's nobody wants this Death by Lightning and Beast in me. All of which are worthwhile. All of which are interesting in ways that can surprise and some. And. And. And one of them. And we're going to talk about today. It's kind of not for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think it's well done and I think it has a lot of the things that I root for. And the broad is like 20,000 foot above the. Above the. The tree line. Like, this is what I want Netflix to be doing. Because Netflix can. Netflix can turn their alchemists. They can turn a lot of things into at least ratings gold for them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And there is an algorithmic formula, obviously. And so anytime anything deviates a little bit from it with some sense of Ghost in the Machine or style or a piece of casting or whatever, like, that's good broad. That's just good, I think, for the industry. So I don't mind it. And I've actually kind of enjoyed the rhythm of the last few weeks of being like, oh, check back in on this. Or Down Cemetery Road, which I think has some. It has some evident wobbles as it's gone on. But maybe the flip side of like a Beast in Me, where I'm like, I just kind of like it and I'm enjoying it. That's different than there have been periods in our last few years post Covid. Post strike coverage where there have been. There's been such a disparity between the things that really, really motivated us and got us so fucking excited.

[A]

Versus define the first half of the year. Like, a lot of the shows that I think are gonna be on my top 10 were breaths of fresh air or like, felt radical. Even if they were traditional, like the Pip. You know, like, there was. There's elements of the Pit that are as old as TV itself. And then there are things that you would never be able to do before 2025.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The Pit. Adolescence is a good example of something where it's like, that's the same streaming network that did all the shows that we're just talking about, like Death by Lightning and. And Beast and Me, but felt and looked and communicated something unlike anything else on television.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So it's just an interesting moment where earlier in the year I was like, man, like, there's just like some clear cut Drop Dead Heavyweight Champion shows.

[B]

It seemed like at the midpoint of the year and we didn't do a midpoint list. I was like, my. My top four to six is already locked.

[A]

Locked. I think it still is to me. And it's still from that period.

[B]

Is it? Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

Maybe, maybe not. But this is like, maybe objectively a better television watching in the traditional sense of, like, you could watch something any night and you could have your stories and you could have, like, you could check in and maybe it's a nice respite, I guess. You know what I mean? It's two different ways of doing tv. Do you want to get into Beast of Me?

[B]

Well, what do you want to. All her fault. All Her Fault in Beast of Me seem to be they drop around the same time. They seem to be doing very well.

[A]

Yes. All Her Fault sounds like it's a giant hit to the extent that I can understand minutes watched as a metric.

[B]

As a metric. And again, like, we can be critical on the show, but I am still very much like Rising Tide lifts all boats. Like, I think it's good for distinct services to have hit shows before they all start buying each other and cannibalizing everything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's good for Peacock. But I've not engaged with the show. Do you want to. Is there. Are there common threads? Because they seem.

[A]

I would say that there is an element of it that is first both female lead crime, but I would say closer to feeling true crimey than they feel like crime fiction.

[B]

Could they plausibly switch titles and still exist as a show? Because I do think having watched One Beast in Me, All Her Fault could be the name of it.

[A]

There is an esthetic.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

A shared esthetic. I think they're both about. Well to do pockets.

[B]

Say more, you know.

[A]

No, I mean. And all her fault is a. A little bit more. And this is based on a novel by Andrea Mara and it stars Sarah Snook in her first big post succession role. And Jake Lacey's in it. Dakota Fanning is in it. It's got a really good cast and I think it is grabby. I would put it that way. I will not swear on a bible that I have been attentively watching. To be honest, this is something my wife watched and I've kind of walked in and out and checked in on it and then watched the end of it, you know, which.

[B]

So, by the way, that is also like what parenting is between the ages of like 4 and 9. You know what I mean? Like, you're not in the. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Be careful of the edge of the coffee table.

[A]

You're chainsaw man conversant. But not necessarily like, well, so you.

[B]

Don'T need to be in the room the whole time.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You just need to keep an eye on it.

[A]

That's how we were raised.

[B]

I mean, beyond.

[A]

Yeah, I thought all her fault, like, to the extent that I was studying. It was. Was really well done. But a little bit, I don't want to say convoluted because we also just spent 40 minutes talking about Landman the other day.

[B]

Also, you have already prefaced this by saying that it did not have your full and undivided attention.

[A]

Exactly. So, yes, there are some connections between that and Beast of Me.

[B]

Would you recommend it? Or what's the. What's the Phoebe word on it?

[A]

She compulsively watched it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I think she thought it was a bit silly in places, but it was like, I must get to the end. Which is really, like, probably a good recommendation for a show because there are lots of series where I'm like, I don't care.

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[C]

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Exactly. So now I have to get him a gift, but I haven't gotten my bonus yet. So if we can make it something really nice but also. Also not break the bank, that'd be perfect.

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[A]

Interesting pedigree on this one. So this has been kicking around for a little while, I believe like I saw it was like seven or eight years ago. Gabe Rada wrote like this, wrote the pilot or you know, started working on this. But this is kind of now become in this iteration of whatever it was going to be. A hybrid of some people who used to work on 24 and and Homeland in Howard Gordon.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So clearly Howard Gordon had a pre existing relationship with Claire Danes, her seminal role as Carrie on Homeland. They bring in a star heavy TV star heavy like top of the line acting crew of Danes and watch favorite Matthew Reese.

[B]

The best.

[A]

You may remember our side podcast, AM to the PM about Perry Mason.

[B]

Now it would be AM to the BM for Beast and me, but that sounds real bad. So we're gonna take that back to the lab. Bill is really good at coming up with better podcast names. Yeah. So maybe I'll run it.

[A]

That makes it sound like it's about digestive regularity.

[B]

100%.

[A]

That's not what we're podcasting about. Matthew Reese, Brittany Snow and Natalie Morales are also in.

[B]

These are TV allstars.

[A]

Yeah. And there's some really good directors working on this. Antonio Campos, who did a couple of movies I really like, including Christine and then did the HBO series the Staircase. And then Lila Ne NER Bauer who did the Jennifer Lawrence movie a couple years ago, Causeway. And I was also directed like on Secret Lives of College Girls, but has done a ton of New York theater. So there's like a lot of talent here. It's about a New Yorker writer.

[B]

I mean just pause, pause. Did you. Sorry, this is in my head. This is one of my favorite factoids that just. We're talking about Howard Gordon and Claire Danes in Homeland and we'll get into the New Yorker writer part. I just want to leave people on a cliffhanger about that because they're probably pretty leaning in. Do you know this as this little factoid has this come up on the podcast that when Howard Gordon and Alex Gonzo were writing the Homeland script, they wrote their main characters with the names of the actors they wanted to cast.

[A]

And did they write it as Claire?

[B]

They wrote it as Claire Matheson and Brody because they wanted Claire Danes and Adrien Brody.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And Claire had to become a.

[A]

What a sliding little door that was.

[B]

It was Claire Danes. Yeah.

[A]

The Beast of Me is about Aggie Wiggs, who is a famous New Yorker profile writer.

[B]

Such a.

[A]

The name and memoirist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who is living in the shadow of a personal tragedy. The death of her young son in a car accident caused, she believes, by a drunk driver.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This incident ended her relationship with her wife Shelley, played by Natalie Morales, and seems to have triggered a massive case of writer's block and financial slash emotional distress for Aggie. She lives in Oyster Bay, New York, Long Island.

[B]

Seems like it.

[A]

Enter Niles Jarvis.

[B]

These names pretty good.

[A]

Played by Reese.

[B]

Do you think they did the same thing where they wanted to cast Jarvis? The Jarvis Cocker. Either Jarvis Cocker or the automated AI that later becomes Vision in the Iron Man Vision.

[A]

They're not calling it White Vision, Right?

[B]

You could call it that.

[A]

But he is playing White Vision.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Vision goes. Is white.

[B]

Now listen, this is more.

[A]

His outfit is white.

[B]

This is more for the Midnight Boys to talk about. If you would like to use this podcast as a platform to articulate your own personal white vision for how you want the superhero stories to go.

[A]

Do you think the conservative podcast space will be really all in on White Vision?

[B]

A billion percent. I feel like they think it's ascended.

[A]

I saw some dude getting roasted because like it was like some. Some right wing guy who was like getting extra mad about the beginning of Ken Burns American Revolution series.

[B]

How does it start?

[A]

I think being like Ben Franklin was like a. Or in the. In the words of. Of Bob Ferguson, fucking slave owner, man. The grand wizard.

[B]

He said. So someone was mad.

[A]

That someone was mad at the depiction.

[B]

Of our founding fathers as Christmas adventurers. Yeah, look, we are. We are.

[A]

It is what it is. So Niles Jarvis comes on the scene. He moves in next door to her in the Tony neighborhood of.

[B]

And Chris, he's trouble.

[A]

He's trouble. He's a master of the universe. Real estate magnate slash developer who says things like yimby socialist fucks and who has been accused of murdering his first wife. He's moved on.

[B]

Nobody's perfect.

[A]

He's married to Britney Snow now. But you know, there is a. There is an air around him that's like this guy got away with murder. Literally. Aggie going through it, trying to find something to write about. She owes her second book. She's two Years late.

[B]

Say what? She's writing her book about Scalia and.

[A]

Ruth Bader Ginsburg, their friend.

[B]

Unlikely friendship. Yeah.

[A]

Strange bed follows.

[B]

So here's the thing about the show. It is pitched at a degree that is perilously close to camp. The way that the characters talk to each other, the way that Niles interacts with the world. The fact that it is about a famous New Yorker profile writer named Aggie Wiggs.

[A]

I took it to be like, she's a little bit Mary Carr, a little bit Joan Didion.

[B]

Sure, there are. This is a safe space podcast for famous New Yorker writers. Or honestly, even not even that famous New Yorker writer.

[A]

But it's hard to imagine, like, Bill Ackman being like, holy shit, is Rebecca Mead at this party.

[B]

Right. See, you just pulled that. And that's exactly it. So that said, there is an archness, not just in Matthew Rhys's performance. Cause I think he's incredible in everything and is just. Always, always seems to just intuit the tone even before the director gets his hands on it in the edit. But these little details, like the fact that she is devoting all of her time to a niche book about the unlikely friendship between a liberal and a conservative. And then Niall Jarvis is, like, falling asleep at the table. Being like, that's boring. Makes me think that there might be a kernel of necessary satire within this construct. It's tough. Like, there's so many cooks in the kitchen here, including, I think Conan o' Brien's company is somehow a producer of this as well.

[A]

He's quite busy these days.

[B]

Have you seen that? If you had legs, I'd kick you movie.

[A]

I have not.

[B]

I'm interested.

[A]

I have not.

[B]

So there's just so many cooks in the kitchen. And then when you get to Netflix and you have and they have their mandate for the type of show they want to make, and then you have Antonio Campos, who is a director with real style. And I was drawn in immediately from just the way the show does. The title cards.

[A]

Title cards are awesome. And there's a lot of voyeuristic surveillance state, kind of long zooms and lingering looks. There is also a lot of what seems like Netflix house style, shallow depth of field. Like, here are two people. They are in perfect focus. Everything around them is basically, it looks like it could be a slate behind them. So I vibed with some of the style. I hit my head on some of it.

[B]

And then some of the content too, of like, are we hiding the ball about this guy or are we celebrating it? This is Always a tough tonal one. Like before, he. As he's moving in, his wild guard dogs attack Aggy's house and menace her tiny dog. And I actually, in that moment, made a promise to myself that I almost don't want to admit here, which was, if this episode ends, as it inevitably will, with her dog, or actually her late son's dog Steve, dead because of these big dogs, I'm out. Not because I particularly care about Steve, but I was like, but that's just been telegraphed. The show ended with a different death, so now maybe do I have to watch another one? But I am curious just because I don't know if I'm articulating it right. But, like, the basic outlines of this show, it's just fucking Netflix catnip. Like, it makes sense. And then it gets chefed up a little bit in the kitchen with a Claire Danes, with a Matthew Rhys. Jonathan Banks is showing up in future episodes as. As Niall's dad. Like, it's classed up. Is it slyly commenting on our. Our appetite for this type of programming. Is it. Does it have something new to say about it?

[A]

No, I don't. I don't know.

[B]

It doesn't need to. So one way to find out would be to continue watching it. I'm not ready to commit to that because fundamentally I was like. I watched this and I was like, it's a little bit like cantaloupe or something, where I'm like, I recognize this is probably a very, very fresh example of the form, but I don't love the.

[A]

I think you're identifying something interesting where the thing that's kept. So I watched, like, most of the second episode, and there's something about. Tonally, Danes is doing Claire Danes. Like, there. There are no normal. There is no easygoing Claire Danes performance. Right.

[B]

Like, I thought she was a little bit modulated from the last time we saw her in. Fleischmann is in trouble.

[A]

Yes. There are different parts there, but I thought, like, you know, there's a core intensity to Claire Danes parts.

[B]

You know what you're getting.

[A]

And usually her characters are in the throes of a great personal crisis. She is doing one thing, and Matthew Reese is doing something very different. And they're. They're not always in lockstep. And I think it is at once weird for the show. So sometimes when you're watching, you're like, what the fuck is he doing? Like, in a cool way, like, in the lunch scene, he's hamming it up. Like, every scene is like, I am. I am like. I'm absolutely chewing it up here.

[B]

Yeah. And it's borderline. I'm like, why is she a passive participant in this? Yeah. I mean, like, why does she sit there?

[A]

And he's. And. And yet, I think they are starting to scratch at the. You. You and I, we're not so different. Thing about, like, Bloodlust, they talk about in the first episode and about. I think there is an implication that as a writer, there's something cold and calculating and that you would go through your own personal life. Her big memoir that she wrote was basically not an assassination, but like a takedown of her father and her life with her father. It's called Sick Puppy. And the idea that you could write something and expose family secrets is like this kind of, hey, well, I'm a killer, you know, Like, I'll kill my own family metaphorically. And so I think that they recognize something in each other. But there's. There's something interesting going on both, because, like, I don't know, scene to scene, exactly what I'm gonna get. There's a lot of. You know, they add on a lot of. Not filler, but there's like an FBI agent. You know, there's like all. There's like, the money troubles, the book delivery, like, all this stuff.

[B]

There's a running path.

[A]

This running path. Are they gonna get this figured out? I don't quite understand that.

[B]

Does you think he's interested in maybe he could be convinced to try trail running?

[A]

Well, I think he wants to be. Have a paved jogging path for himself and for his neighbors. But she's like, what about a walk in the woods, you know, which one do you go with?

[B]

Inside of you, there are two wolves. One likes a paved path.

[A]

I gotta admit, the older I get, the more I appreciate a graded. You know, like, just, like, flattened piece of pavement.

[B]

I'm also sorry. I'm just really hung up on the. Ed, you said you checked out some of the second episode, and I am picturing you. Yeah. Okay. I appreciate the honesty. I thought you were walking in and out a little bit.

[A]

No, no, no. I started, like, you got to the end of one. I. I'm pretty compelled. And I started, too. And then I think I got midway through and fell asleep.

[B]

I'm just picturing you with the Dan Campbell glasses, you know, just, like, wandering in, like, looking over the edge of.

[A]

Them, being like, no, Dan Campbell's calling the plays, brother.

[B]

I know. That's why he's got a lot in his mind he can't just watch the second episode of some shit.

[A]

The culture is failing in Detroit because Dan Campbell's too busy calling those fucking Hitch patterns.

[B]

Do you think, do you think it's falling apart?

[A]

You can't do everything. Trust me, I've tried.

[B]

You truly have. I. I think you've also. You may have broken a seal here because I don't know if we've ever actually confessed to falling asleep during television shows on the podcast. If.

[A]

So I watched an hour of it and then I got like a 90 minutes into it. So I, you know, yeah, I'm doing the work.

[B]

I mean, I definitely. We could just like use a different filter on my face when I'm. When like I've told I shouldn't give Kai ideas, but like, I'll put it this way. Like, as you know, like I'm currently zooming to work on England hours. So my attempts to watch lots of television to catch up last night did was really cooking. And then I woke up, like really worried and shocked and like, you know, like almost like body horror. Like, where am I? And on the screen was chair company 106 where his like teenage sons are demanding that he do the Pee Wee Herman dance for them at his birthday party. And I guess the punchline of the story is it was 7:16 at night.

[A]

But you gotta watch out, man, you're gonna flip your schedule. It's gonna be dark. Anyway. I am going to keep watching this. I understand if it's not for you, but this is kind of where we are. We have a bunch of shows that we've sort of like started with. I think you're maybe a little higher on Down Cemetery Road at this point than I am.

[B]

Last thing on Beast and Me. I think the other piece of it is when we're budgeting our time as viewers. Like this is eight episodes and I watched. Tell me what you think about this. But after watching the one, I feel like I now have enough. I have. You have. We've all watched enough TV now that the shape of this for seven more hours feels unwieldy to me and less promising than if it was four to six. Yes. Just because of the things that it's going to have to do to fill the space to keep these characters apart from together, apart together, et cetera. Yeah. When you have a two hander like this, there's, there's certain cards you can play. And we have seen. I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but we have seen shows like this drawn out to 8 and 10 and it's challenging. Sometimes. It works.

[A]

You know, it goes back to our task conversation, where obviously that show ended so, so successfully. Like, there was just such a profound period at the end of the. Of the sentence there. And the fact that it's coming back for a second season is fantastic. And I think what it'll be is a new paragraph, but this. It's difficult when you're like, I know we're not gonna have the continuing adventures of Aggie Wiggs kind of like. Do you know what I mean? Like, you. You like, you're right. There is something about, like, eight is a lot for finality.

[B]

Eight is a lot for a story that is moving only in one direction, towards an ending.

[A]

Yes, that's.

[B]

That's a better way of putting it. It not. Not always. I mean, there are examples that I don't have access to at this moment because, as I just said, I've been up and working since five. But there are examples of that. But there is also an incredible feeling that I feel like we should coin a phrase for a term for the feeling of watching one episode of Death by Lightning and loving it and realizing there's only three more. That was a high.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And we will talk about. We should circle back and talk about it, but that is a very specific thing. And by the way, just want to do a small shout out while we're talking about, like, structure. I thought Katherine Van Arendonk had a really good piece on Vulture this week on New York Magazine, saying, enough already with the penultimate flashback episode, which was really overdue, I think, but, like, in the same way that we've talked about how the starting a show with a really heightened.

[A]

I mean, like, do you think people are really making, like, the creative decision to do a flashback episode simply as filler?

[B]

It's not as filler. It's just that I know from being in rooms that it can feel. One thing that is true, I think, across all writers rooms, no matter how much TV people in the room watch or consume or how much they think about the industry, is that they become very insular. And you, for probably good creative reasons, think pretty much only about what's in front of you in terms of problem solving or what's on the whiteboard. And you don't think about what. What the show is gonna be released into, what the ecosystem or the context will be like, or even how it might be in dialogue with other shows one day. And so I think that feeling of, we've known what happened this whole time, and we are so Excited to tell you. When would it be cool to tell you? And it will be right when our hero has made it to the precipice. And then we next episode yoinks. Now you see how we got here from the full perspective. That's sound. That is sound. Interesting storytelling logic. The problem is these shows are all being created in relative vacuums. And it's not their fault that every other show had the same idea at the same time. Yeah. So actually pieces like that, for as much as any criticism can be meaningful. Like I think things like that do. I think things like that are noticed. So I think there should be also let 10 think pieces on the starting a show at the most interesting moment and then saying five months earlier, like, let's end that right now.

[A]

Let's kind of run through these comedies.

[B]

Wait, did you want to do Down Cemetery Road? Do you feel I have not watched. I realize now we're talking on Thursday. The fifth episode has posted and I have not watched it yet.

[A]

No, I think we can. We could actually do a little bit of a Down Cemetery Road and I'll do my report card on the morning show finale on Monday.

[B]

Yeah, I'm ready for that.

[A]

Because we have Pluribus and Lamb man, but we can also mix it up with some of that stuff too.

[B]

All right, fine. I like the show though.

[A]

Just make the case.

[B]

Well, no, I mean, you said we're gonna talk about it on Monday.

[A]

No, but you can, you can, you can kind of talk about like how I think that there has been some public kind of grousing about like the there. That there is a fall off after episode two. Do you agree with that?

[B]

Well, I think yes, but I, I don't know if it's entirely a quality fall off. It is like a. Wait, what's the show? Because the show did such beautiful work in two episodes creating Oxford as a living place and these two characters in an orbit to each other and to like wigwam squat and to the university and to the larger world of government in London. That made sense and we were very excited about being oriented in that world. And then in episode three, suddenly it's like a not lovers on the run conspiracy thriller about wronged military veterans taking experimental medicine to stop the screaming shakes in their bodies. Yeah, that's not the show I'm talking about.

[A]

It reminds me a little bit of the second season of Vigil. The first season very much contained on the submarine, but the second season kind of like skipping across. Like it's, you know, like all this different Stuff. And a lot of, like, every time you get to the end of an episode, you're like. And now there's like, a whole other plot that's been opened up.

[B]

It's very busy and it's very messy and.

[A]

But the two leads.

[B]

And the. The two leads are so good. And I just. So far, I don't find it cloying that the show becomes charmed by ancillary characters. Like in the. I think in the fourth episode at the motel, there's the desk clerk who is. When you meet him, you're like, oh, well, he's playing this way too much to be just someone passing one scene. Yeah. And then he comes back, five more scenes. Yes. I appreciate that generosity of spirit. The logic of Ruth Wilson's character being like, 24 hours ago, I saw a girl on a bike, and now I am a single vigilante on the run, hunting for cars and guns does jive with how I thought the world worked in my 20s. Sure. Maybe that would have been a successful pickup line for you at LA bars and hotspots.

[A]

I mean, sometimes I actually think this about the Mc Heron stuff, which is. He's obviously the author of the Slow Horses series, and he's the author of. I believe it's a series of Zoe Bohm books.

[B]

I think there's more than one.

[A]

Is that they.

[B]

Yeah, there's four.

[A]

The shagginess of them as a novel does not actually translate one to one to tv. And that you do get this sort of more. I mean, I think they've done a really good job of pairing Slow Horses down to its bare essentials.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And keeping the things that they really want, like Jackson and Rivers relationship or whatever. And obviously, Standish is like, they. They do a really good job with the book to TV highway. But this one, I'm almost like, this feels like it would almost be a fun page turner. And I wouldn't be like, why are we on the run now? But on tv, you're almost like, I want a kind of repeatable experience.

[B]

Yeah. And so I. I guess we'll see. I mean, I'm enjoying it enough to see, but to your point, I wonder if it would have been less thrilling in two episodes but more rewarding over four seasons if they had just made the decision that it's Zoe and Sarah as unlikely investigators in this town and left it at that and let the plot run through them. That's not what's happening.

[A]

What's happening on the Chair company.

[B]

I mean, I feel like I gave a lot of it away to you by saying that there is a Ron's son's birthday party in which Ron is asked to do the Pee Wee dance. And then he doesn't do it. And his son is so upset by that, he binge drinks. And then as they're singing Happy Birthday to the cake, he vomits because of alcohol consumption. And a large man picks up the cake, places it over the pile of sick, and says, don't worry, it's covered. You don't have to look at it.

[A]

One of my favorite things about you is how much you like weird, weird comedy.

[B]

I love this show so much, and I love.

[A]

This is kind of how you used to talk about Twin Peaks, because it is Twin Peaks.

[B]

Because the thing about Twin Peaks is that it's fucking hilarious, and it always was. And David Lynch's stuff is all funny until suddenly he just moves the needle a little bit and it's horrifying. And there's a moment, and this show exists on the same frequency. It's just pitched a little bit different. There's a moment when Ron comes home from a long day at work. I think it's like, even he says, it's like one in the morning. And he walks into the kitchen and there's a large bearded man with a bowl of popcorn standing there. And he turns around, he says, hi, Ron. And then he's like, who the fuck is that? And his wife's like, oh, that's our son's friend. They're working on a project in the basement. But it's in the same place as horror and everything else. And it's so mundane and crazy and weird. And it's also this episode. Ron. In order to try to jazz up their development pitches, Lou Diamond Phillips how not only should it have, like, terracotta color scheme, it should have a CBGB zoning from when things were, like, really cool. It's so good. I'm so happy.

[A]

Lou Diamond Phillips on this.

[B]

I'm so happy it got renewed. This is a big Lou Diamond Phillips episode.

[A]

Do you think that there will be another mystery next season or do you think they will just continue to chase this?

[B]

Wow. I mean, first of all, what a great substantive question. Thank you for it. I would like to say I have no fucking idea what's going to happen on this show. And I honestly, honestly don't care. I'm delighted by it.

[A]

What do you think of where I Love LA is right now?

[B]

I need you to make the case for me with this because I struggled with the third episode.

[A]

I find it Pretty easy to watch. Like, obviously it makes me feel incredibly old in some ways. And in some ways, sometimes I feel like even the characters on the show or the people playing the characters maybe feel the same way.

[B]

That's right, yeah.

[A]

All right. There is like a kind of. I wouldn't say there's not like flop sweat to be relevant, but there is like a kind of yearning to be like, contemporary that I think TV shows have a hard time with when they are doing it knowingly. You know, like, where it's like, we want to have these references hit in a way that if you've been on Instagram in the last 24 months.

[B]

Sure. Or if you've been in Echo park In the last 24 months, you know that there's occasionally a line, although not a line that big, at Canyon Coffee.

[A]

Right. But I am finding myself like, I think the. The initial criticisms that we had of it that it was going to be. There's like a little too much influencer mechanics. Drama. Yes. I am really just not that interested in that. I did find the. The Coke Larry stuff with Josh Hutcherson to be really, really funny. And I am enjoying his. His sort of performance. And I'm starting to, I think, get the rhythms of Rachel Sennott in this show.

[B]

No better expression of your own white vision than you being like, the hero of the show is Josh Hutcherson, the slightly older, normal guy who doesn't want to get embarrassed at work for being Coke Larry. Like that is. I see the white vision.

[A]

I just really liked it when she's like, I'm not on guy Twitter. I don't know what this is.

[B]

That's fair. Like the Michael Jordan meme. I don't know. This feels like concern trolling. It's unnecessary to say it, but I can't tell where the floor is on the show yet because it feels like it is a bunch of people making satirizing aspects of life in 2025 and. Or in Los Angeles, but also satirizing themselves for satirizing it. And that is a level of busyness and meta ness that I find hard to just sit with. And ultimately I need an anchor. Like I do. I am Josh Hutcherson. I have a 9 to 5 job and I drive a Dodge Stratus. So the show is not for me. It's an electric Stratus though, by the way, so you're welcome.

[A]

But I enjoy it while you can, man.

[B]

Well, I get no benefits anymore. I know other than moral clarity and slight smug superiority. I do need an Anchor of, like, where am I oriented in terms of caring for people? Caring for people.

[A]

Why do you not need that in Chair Company?

[B]

Because I think Chair Company is profoundly funny and creative and skewed and aesthetically so specific that it is kind of art to me, and it just reliably makes me laugh. It is pure comedy. And I think that if this show, if this show and this spirit and this aesthetic was a 6 minute Funny or Die sketch or 90 minute movie satirizing influencer culture in LA, it would succeed on the current terms. But as a show that is now going someplace over two seasons. I mean, it's three episodes, so there's plenty of time for it to find that anchor. I'm just curious what it is.

[A]

I think it was probably the Vulture review, but I can't remember who said this show is more. Maybe it was Alison Herman. I can't remember. But it was like, think of this more like Entourage and How to make it in America than girls. And that was very helpful for me to kind of be like, oh, yeah.

[B]

I think it's helpful. But also, two of those shows I bailed on and one I stuck with. And I was hoping.

[A]

You bailed on Entourage?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Damn, dude. So you don't know what happened with E?

[B]

Did he make Aquaman?

[A]

He gets fired from Aquaman, doesn't he, E?

[B]

Well, what about Queens Boulevard?

[A]

It's Queens Boulevard.

[B]

Ian Sloan, and then they want to.

[A]

Make the Pablo Escobar movie.

[B]

They do Medellin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This would be.

[A]

By the way, apparently somebody didn't quite.

[B]

Feel this podcast would do. Numbers of two guys just struggling. They wear glasses now. Their white vision isn't what it used to be like just to remember plot points from a show that one of them claims to have not.

[A]

You know how when. If any rap song released from 1989 to 2002 comes on, I'm like, I know all the lyrics to this, everyone. Yeah, that's how I feel about Entourage episodes. Oh, I don't. I could not. But if you were like, do. Do, like any number of Big L songs off the top of your head, I would be like, I could not. But if I heard two beats of it, I'd be like, here's all the verses. That's how I feel about Entourage. I could not tell you a single thing off the top of my head about Entourage, except for the fact that I know every episode of Entourage by heart.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What were the. Open the computer back up. What was the Entourage era from when to when?

[A]

96 episodes of this Bad Boy.

[B]

96 episodes. God. Talk about how to make it in America.

[A]

It ran to the glory years.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

04 to 11.

[B]

Those are the best years of our lives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Those are the years where you're just standing next to women at bars smoking cigarettes until.

[A]

Well, no, because Mike Bloomberg banned it.

[B]

The smoking.

[A]

Yeah. Inside.

[B]

So you were just sidling up to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

First of all, you weren't doing this.

[A]

I was saying, do you want to go outside and have a cigarette?

[B]

Like with increasing levels of intensity and sweat.

[A]

That's true, actually.

[B]

That is very true. 04 to 1190.

[A]

18.

[B]

God damn. I respect it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You would never have thought that Doug Allen and the Brain Trust could have.

[A]

Mined 96 episodes and 96 episodes of Entourage in. And Stranger Things is like, try to get the last boulder over the mountain.

[B]

She's just a three hour boulder up the hill. What are your. For I love la. What are your. Put on the Dan Campbell glasses. Except now I'm gonna switch sports. No, you're the Combine.

[A]

He's like the slicker call sheet. Yeah.

[B]

Because he doesn't want up here. He doesn't want them to be messed with, but he needs the. His readers. Yeah. Okay. You're at the Combine and you're watching I love la. Do the weird, like, jumps and shit. What are the traits that give you some confidence? Not that it's gonna go eight seasons, but that it is going to smooth its journey into something that is like a dependable player in this league?

[A]

The Odessa Zion character can go in a lot of different directions, and she's.

[B]

Phenomenal and she's a dynamo, force of nature.

[A]

And I think that they could. She could be in an A24 movie.

[B]

The character. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

She could be Charlie XCX. Like, she can go and do a bunch of different things and they could get into a lot of different pockets of the entertainment business. I hope. Actually, I understand why the influencer thing is like, actually probably more authentic to these characters and probably more authentic to 2025.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

You know, I think it's hard. I was talking with Fantasy the other day about how, you know, there's, you know, a lot of anxiety around the media business now and nobody's sure. And I was like, he doesn't have that as video games.

[B]

True. Like shinobi.

[A]

No, but just like in general, like, video games. Like, we've always had this experience where, like when. When whenever everybody is like, God damn it, where am I going to string two pennies together?

[B]

Video.

[A]

How about $25 million.

[B]

Oh, like, how much these are making?

[A]

Yeah. And I was thinking, like, that probably makes sense. Like, influencers. When everybody's just like, is Sydney Sweeney actually a star? And it's like, these influencers, like, I make $9 million a year.

[B]

You know, I think the most. But I also think this is.

[A]

And we understand why they're doing that, but I wish they would put her in some other stuff.

[B]

I also feel like this is copying to our. Like, look, this. You guys are listening to a podcast hosted by people who should just be reading Robert Caro novels by a fire.

[A]

I finished Vineland, bro.

[B]

I know. Respect.

[A]

You know what I did?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I finished my land, which is, like, hard for me because. Because your brain is shredded mozzarella now. I finished it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And much like Coop in Interstellar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I used the fucking momentum of the black hole, swung around, and I immediately started an easier book and read, like, 45 pages.

[B]

That's smart. I thought you were gonna say Barry.

[A]

Bonds with the donut on his bat, takes it off or juice.

[B]

You know, you have injected yourself with fucking so much test. This is really. This is really. I do want to finish the other point, but I want to say this is elite reading advice.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because I did something similar where I finished a more challenging book and then I flew. By the way, I also want to address, for the record, people were commenting on this. Why didn't we sit together on the flight home from England? First of all, different flights, different flights. Done. Second of all, intentionally different flights. Because I love you and I have no. I hide nothing from you except my airport self. I do not want to see anyone at the airport or on an airplane ever.

[A]

I don't want to talk for 10 hours. Yeah, but I'd hang out with you.

[B]

Like, in the back of the plane.

[A]

I mean, Virgin, first of all, Virgin has those, like, little bar areas. I'd love to just get a little chin wag with you mid flight, talk about some of the turbulence.

[B]

I'll just text you from the left side of the plane. You don't want to see me in turbulence.

[A]

What do you like?

[B]

What am I like?

[A]

Yeah, you make it sound like you're like a cave troll. What's wrong with you?

[B]

Well. Well, first of all, it's tired, like, because I take the early flight. You took a later flight. But also, like, it is peak, like, hood up. What have you just handed me? This appears to be some sort of, like, Stouffer's pan. Doesn't matter. I ate it. Like, I am Definitely.

[A]

Just like, can I say this to you? And now I'm remembering that one of my flights when I went to England a couple years, like, a year ago, I was flying back and Jesse Armstrong was sitting in front of me.

[B]

No.

[A]

And I think I was texting you and you're like, you should say hi. You should say, what's up? Yeah, here's the difference. I was like, full. Full sweatsuit. Like, sweatsuit to the point of, like, rules don't matter. Yeah. There's no part of my body that's not suited in sweat.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I'm watching, you know, a cricket documentary and rolling around, trying to get my back feel good. Jesse Armstrong sat straight up.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And read the Financial times for, like, 11 hours.

[B]

Yeah. Look, this is what kids.

[A]

And I was like, I'm a. I'm. I'm not. I'm not ready to see him. I'm not ready to have the awkward, like, hey, I don't know if you remember me, we had two podcasts together. But, like, I keep.

[B]

Now, these are not people that I personally know, but I keep flying with. Like, Andrew Scott is on the flight, and he just looks so tussled and rumpled. I'm like, let's see you in 11 hours, pal. Fucking looking amazing. Hugging the stewardesses afterwards, you know? I have now flown from LA to London multiple times with Theo James. Let me tell you something. That guy ages. Like wine on flights. Exactly.

[A]

He's probably going back in age just because of the time difference.

[B]

He looked. You're right, he looked better when we got there.

[A]

That's why those guys do that flight.

[B]

He just never puts his feet on earth. So he's actually only 29 years old. Very humbling. Last two points that we were talking about, that is elite reading advice. If you read something hard, it is. Like with the weights, then you read something easy. Coming off that flight, I was like, I'd like to read a book, but also, I'm completely jangled. Picked up an old Don Carpenter novel. Had one of the best reading experiences of my life.

[A]

Which would you do? A couple of Comedians.

[B]

Comedians is a perfect book. Okay, brother, come on. Second, back to. I love la for the people who are really hanging on. For the last observation, I don't want to bring this part of myself to it, but I must. Which is to say that it is incredibly accurate to Los Angeles and the state of the entertainment industry. That it is just like. Like. It is like panhandling for crumbs from Tresemme or fucking Balenciaga. Is Going to email you and a message about maybe sending you a bag and then 10 seconds on TikTok have to be answered to. And at Chifa, where you have to order the whole menu and it's going to bankrupt you. Very accurate. I also find all that so deeply depressing.

[A]

Who's that accurate for?

[B]

Life in LA and the entertainment industry is down to these kind of, like, crumbs of influence and branding and selling out. Like that is the entertainment industry, basically.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Season three of man on the Inside Apart, but like, that is basically the entire entertainment industry. Season two. That bums me out so much that I don't want to necessarily find the humanity in it. Ah. Do you know what I mean? I see. I don't know if the show wants to either. I think everybody realizes that we're just like, you know, we're just last orders. You know what I mean? But last orders in Chifa, last orders is Chief. The rabbit is to die for.

[A]

Do you think we did a good pot today?

[B]

I think there were moments when I was worried, but then you started talking about White Visions and I was like, let's cook.

[A]

Thanks to Kai.

[B]

I thought it was good. I think Kai has a lot to work with and I think he's gonna slant things a little more wide because Kai, I'm working the refs.

[A]

The most excited Kai was was when we were talking about Key Glock before we started recording.

[B]

When you and he were talking about Key Glock.

[A]

Yeah. I said, have you listened to Key Glock? And Kai is just like, keylock's the fucking amazing. I think I'm coming back for rap. I feel it.

[B]

This is exciting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is a good zag for you. Which camera are you saying that into? You. You're like, hello, rap caviar playlist. Would you like to hear my White Vision?

[A]

No, no, no, no. I do my own research. I am going to start a rap playlist called White Vision now.

[B]

You should.

[A]

Then I'm going to use Betany.

[B]

It's just all tracks.

[A]

Bettany from Margin Call, not from Vision.

[B]

No, of course. And it's all tracks by that dude Russ. That's it. Great.

[A]

Thank you for listening to the Watch. We'll be back with Pluribus Episode four, Landman Episode two.

[B]

The People have Spoken. I have to watch it, Landman. Yeah.

[A]

You can do what you want. It's free country.

[B]

That's what Landman says. Yeah. And I believe it. Yeah, I'll watch it.