‘Industry’ Season 4 Is Here, and It’s Bolder Than Ever. Plus, the Golden Globes and ‘Landman’ S2E9.

Summary

The Watch – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Watch
Hosts: Andy Greenwald & Chris Ryan
Date: January 12, 2026
Episode Focus:

• ‘Industry’ Season 4 premiere – bold new directions
• Golden Globes recap and critique
• ‘Landman’ Season 2 Episode 9 discussion

---

Overview

In this episode, Andy and Chris dive into the highly anticipated fourth season of HBO's ‘Industry’, debate the relevance and execution of the Golden Globes, and cover one of the most controversial (and questionable) episodes yet of Taylor Sheridan’s ‘Landman’. Per usual, the conversation weaves sharp wit, deep TV criticism, generous pop-culture tangents, and personal riffs on the state of sports fandom.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. The Golden Globes: A Night of Predictability

Summary:
The hosts analyze the Golden Globes’ further slide into irrelevance, bemoaning its twin faults: uninspired, Emmy-mirroring results and a genuinely insufferable telecast driven by distracting play-by-play commentary and shallow production choices.

Discussion Highlights:

• Year 3 of “respectable” Globes: Once a chaotic, tipsy party with unpredictable results, the Globes are now “basically with a few one or two exceptions” a rubber stamp of the Emmys and Oscars. (11:47)
• Lack of innovation or surprise: “If you’re just going to run back the Emmys and preview and rubber stamp the Oscars, what’s the point?” - Andy (12:25)
• Broadcast woes: Both lambast the incessant presence of play-by-play announcers (Mark Malkin and Kevin Frazier), who narrated even the five seconds it took a winner to reach the podium, and the “overcompensating DJ” blasting awkward needle drops. (15:06–16:29)
• Notable exception: Ray Seahorn's win for Best Actress in Drama marked a rare departure from “pure chalk.”
• Industry self-celebration: The hosts note that the show is now “an extension of Penske Media,” muddying journalistic integrity and further blurring distinctions between press, PR, and awards. (12:45–13:01)
• Political silence: The noticeable lack of any political speeches at the event (“not a single nominee said anything remotely political all night”) stood out to both hosts. (20:54)

Memorable Quote:

“It was hideous television. Truly. And they talked more than any Nick winner talked.” — Andy (16:07)

Notable Moment:

• Congratulations to producer Kaia McMullen, whose podcast ‘Good Hang with Amy Poehler’ won the first-ever Golden Globe for Best Podcast. (06:16)

  “The right woman and the right podcast won. That was thrilling.” — Andy (07:45)

---

II. ‘Industry’ Season 4: A Fearless Reinvention

Summary:
The core of the episode is a deep-dive on Industry’s boldest transformation yet. Andy and Chris break down the audacious, high-difficulty hard reboot, its narrative structure, the introduction of new power centers (and new faces), and the show's shifting visual and emotional palette.

Discussion Highlights:

• The Big Leap: Season 4 is “a hard reboot”—upending the formula and refusing to return to comforting narrative norms.

  “The degree of difficulty for this premiere cannot be overstated. There is no safe word for this show. There really isn’t a home base to return to.” — Andy (39:43)

• No more ‘home base’: The old security blanket of the Peerpoint office is gone—the geography, structure, even the protagonist lineup is radically remade. (35:43–37:27)
• Comparison to ‘The Wire’: The only recent parallel is how The Wire’s Season 2 resets expectations; even that maintains its police centrality, whereas Industry throws out its entire status quo and supporting cast. (39:16–41:24)
• Character Dynamics:
  • Harper (Myha’la Herrold) now runs her own shop, but still lacks true power; Eric (Ken Leung) returns from retirement to partner with her at Otto Mawson’s firm.
  • Introduction of new tech/finance players Whitney (Max Minghella) and Jay (Kal Penn), their pseudo-PayPal-for-porn start-up, and intersecting UK government regulation.
  • Rishi emerges as “the ideal avatar for this kind of storytelling” — a loose cannon whose prowess is now put to use in colorful, ethically dubious corporate espionage (notably, stealing a phone at a politically charged wake). (51:30)
• Visual & tonal shift: The show is now “lush and sensual and baroque,” with ambitious location work, kinetic camera, and sensorial setpieces (reference: New Order remix club scene; the diversity of real London). (60:04)
• Dialogue: The sharp, weighted dialogue poses new challenges for American actors, but Max Minghella and Kiernan Shipka impress. (61:53)
• Recurring Theme: Season 4 is about “ethics or the abandonment of ethics”; old hierarchies are breaking, and the thing filling their absence is pure opportunism, “running right at the emptiness that is at the core of everything we do.” (48:54–49:05)

Memorable Quotes:

• (On the show’s core):

  “It is one of the few entertainments of our era that is willing to run right at the emptiness that is at the core of basically everything we do.” — Andy (49:05)

• (On character/plot evolution and overdog/underdog status):

  “Everyone is an overdog right now on the show—maybe with the exception of Kiernan Shipka’s Haley character, who is literally an assistant. Everyone else is… at the highest level now.” — Andy (55:14)

Timestamps for Pivotal Moments:

• [33:51–42:47] — Industry Season 4 "hard reboot," plot and character context
• [45:08–47:06] — New finance-tech storyline and work/power dynamics
• [48:54–51:30] — The central theme of eroding ethics in modern capital
• [60:04–62:38] — Cinematic language and directorial evolution

---

III. ‘Landman’ S2E9: When TV Collapses Into Self-Parody

Summary:
Andy delivers an (even for him) impassioned teardown of Landman, particularly Season 2, Episode 9’s “Pagan” subplot, blasting its muddled writing, paper-thin culture-war provocations, and the sheer shapelessness that has overtaken the show.

Discussion Highlights:

• Pagan subplot: The introduction of a nonbinary character named Pagan as Ainsley’s college roommate is derided as “appalling,” obviously inserted as a culture war shibboleth and written with zero authentic perspective. (66:37)
• Writing/production issues:
  • Taylor Sheridan’s “industrial complex” and single-author hubris (“the most charitable version… is that there’s a reason why almost no one successfully pulls this off”)
  • Plot threads and character motivations are threadbare, inconsistent, and obviously rearranged out of order (“even the performances don’t feel geo-located to where they are in the season”). (74:39)
• Aimlessness: Even the major arcs, such as Tommy’s firing, Sam Elliott’s character’s decline, or the unmotivated developments around Cami, feel functionally weightless.
• Wasted potential: Only a few fleeting philosophical moments offer a glimpse of what the show might have been—a funeral episode, a meditation on industry mortality, which is then abandoned amid farcical or empty subplots.
• Meta-commentary: Andy and Chris ponder whether Sheridan, knowing his own power, is deliberately detonating his own product. (79:32–79:46)

Notable Quotes:

• “This was a new level of dog shit in the history.” — Andy (66:52)

• “There is the most charitable version of criticism for this show is that there’s actually a reason why almost no one pulls this off… you need human perspective.” — Andy (71:02–71:25)

• “This entire exercise of this television show, this season, has been despicable.” — Andy (76:10)

Timestamps for Important Segments:

• [64:02–69:12] — The “Pagan” culture-war subplot
• [71:02–72:47] — Sheridan’s solo writing: a critical failure
• [75:23–76:10] — What the season is (maybe) about: mortality and missed opportunity
• [79:32–79:46] — Theory: Is Taylor Sheridan tanking the show on purpose?

---

IV. Other Notable Moments & Quotes

• On the Eagles’ NFL season flameout:

  “This was a miserable fucking experience for the last couple months and I’m not happy that it’s over and I’m not happy the Eagles lost to the Niners, but I’m glad I do not have to watch 19 points a game again.” — Chris (82:11)

• On sports and emotional self-defeating:

  “I don’t think I have a healthy relationship to sports. I think I have a deeply dysregulated relationship to sports.” — Andy (03:32)

• On literary diversions:
  • Andy extols the 800-page German novel Effingers as “the best book I’ve read in years,” a motif for history’s ironies and disappointment. (03:37)
  • A debate erupts about the pronunciation of Thomas Pynchon's name, prompted by a Paul Thomas Anderson Golden Globes speech: “Who’s the art guy?” — Chris (28:17)

---

V. Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “The degree of difficulty for this [Industry S4 premiere] cannot be overstated. There is no safe word for this show. There really isn’t a home base to return to…” — Andy (39:43)
• “If you’re just going to run back the Emmys and preview and rubber stamp the Oscars, what’s the point?” — Andy (12:25)
• “It was hideous television. Truly. And they talked more than any [award] winner talked.” — Andy (16:07)
• “This entire exercise of this television show, this season, has been despicable.” — Andy (76:10)
• “It is one of the few entertainments of our era that is willing to run right at the emptiness that is at the core of basically everything we do.” — Andy (49:05)
• [On character/plot status in Industry:] “Everyone is an overdog right now on the show—maybe with the exception of Kiernan Shipka’s Haley character, who is literally an assistant. Everyone else is… at the highest level now.” — Andy (55:14)
• [On the Rishi espionage scene:] “Those abilities he has in the workplace of Peerpoint are in no way separate from the degeneracy of his life as a gambler. And now what is left to him as a career is a sort of bizarre amalgamation of both.” — Andy (51:17)
• [On solo showrunning:] “You need human perspective. Not just to make the Pagan character work… it’s despicable and it’s gross.” — Andy (71:25, 72:51)

---

Section Timestamps

Golden Globes Recap: 07:00 – 33:51
Industry S4 Premiere Discussion: 33:51 – 64:02
Landman S2E9 Breakdown: 64:02 – 80:20
Eagles Post-Mortem & Sports Riffing: 81:31 – 86:41

---

Tone & Style

As always, Andy and Chris maintain a blend of caustic, insightful criticism and personal camaraderie. Their language is sharp and precise, with deep passion for television as an art form—and zero patience for mediocrity or cynicism (whether from the Globes, Landman, or the Eagles’ season). The mood runs from exuberant praise (for Industry’s reinvention and Good Hang’s win) to nearly existential despair (about Landman’s artistic collapse and the emptiness of modern finance, TV, and football).

---

For New Listeners

If you didn’t catch the episode:

• You’ll get incisive context on how Industry S4 is challenging what serialized drama can do, and why the Golden Globes might need to rethink their entire existence.
• The Landman segment is worth hearing as a full-throated indictment of what happens when one man’s empire loses all perspective.
• There are plenty of metatextual jokes, sports as emotional allegory, and a love/hate relationship with pop culture that is this podcast’s trademark.

---

End of Summary.

Transcript

[Chris Ryan]

Are you ready?

[Andy Greenwald]

Movies are a place of dreams. And this year, Song Song Blue captures that spirit like no other. Based on a true story, the New York Times raves, it is exactly the movie we need right now.

[Chris Ryan]

If you're there with me, I am not afraid anymore.

[Andy Greenwald]

And now Kate Hudson is an actor award nominee for best actress in the best picture of the year. Song Sung Blue from focus features rated PT13 may be inappropriate for children under 13 now playing only in theaters.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by tacky act like analyzing plot twists. Tax act guides you step by step to make sure you get your maximum refund. Get tips along the way. Add expert assist to talk to tax experts or let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. I need sports to have to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, he just threw into triple coverage. It's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thus ending my season.

[Chris Ryan]

What season? I'm here for Liverpool. I'm here for the Philadelphia Phillies. I'm fine.

[Andy Greenwald]

You just turned the page.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Andy, great to see you, man. Here we are on Monday. We're going to talk about the season premiere of industry. We're going to talk about the penultimate episode of Landman.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was the penultimate episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jesus Christ.

[Chris Ryan]

And we are going to talk about the Golden Globes. You can reach us at thewatchpotify.com you can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer-TV channel or on Spotify where I hope you're listening to us. Where you enjoy our all.

[Andy Greenwald]

Watch us on Spotify too. It turns out.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what I mean. That's what I just said.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like I said, I hope you're listening to us on Spotify.

[Chris Ryan]

You can watch us on Spotify where I also hope you're listening to us. I just kind of butchered that. And then you can follow us on Instagram. The watchpot underscore.

[Andy Greenwald]

We're both. We're both maybe. I mean, I think we have a lot to say today, but we're both struggling a little bit.

[Chris Ryan]

I know Jerome Powell and I standing by him today.

[Andy Greenwald]

You want to talk about the importance of an independent fiduciary policy for a nation. Yes, I just want to acknowledge that.

[Chris Ryan]

You'Re wearing Eagle's green. Vaguely eagle's green today.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I'd like. Can I take it off? Can I wave the white flag of my T shirt instead?

[Chris Ryan]

The problem is you have a Kevin Petullo T shirt on.

[Andy Greenwald]

It is funny because I was going to come in today and be like, if there's one under qualified buffoon whose job security I would like to imperil today in all of America. And I was gonna say Kevin Petulla, but then I realized in the scheme of things, maybe there are other people who should lose their jobs first and I should ratchet it down. But I do want to acknowledge the fact that last week I did predict the worst possible Sunday for your friend and the co host. But the thing about you is I got it.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, you see it coming.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And you don't avoid it. You drive right into it. Like I told you to watch Landman. I told you that you should like mix it up a little bit. I did. I didn't think it would be healthy for you to do nine hours of Eagles globes. Landman. No it and capping it with Landman. Did you do anything else after Landman?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, well, so I did. I did have a sense because I am trying to do some self reflection. I was like, the way that I.

[Chris Ryan]

Feel that you're not self reflecting other.

[Andy Greenwald]

Times never, never have.

[Chris Ryan]

So fucking.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is new. This is like the midpoint of life. I'm like, maybe I should just turn the camera inward for a second.

[Chris Ryan]

Should I try therapy?

[Andy Greenwald]

Critic, criticize thyself. Oh, I've tried it. I just want to perfect it, you know, I was like, I'm. I'm sensing some sort of like heart racing and like levels of stress because it could be again, could be. I don't know if anyone's ever going to foia my text to Sheil during the game yesterday, but they might reveal this to be the case. I don't think I have a healthy relationship to sports. I think I have a deeply dysregulated relationship to sports. And those on the other end of my text know this. So I was like, that plus that abomination of a television episode of Landman, plus a very dull globes that we're going to get into. Sure did put me in a place of like, I definitely need to wind down a little bit here. You know, maybe a little magnesium, a little tea, some quiet time reading. And you know that my. The greatest joy of the last few weeks has been reading this recently translated 75 year old German epic, Effingers which is like the best book I've read in years. And I was like, at least I have this 800 page tome. I'm nearing the end. I'm on page 700. But again, you can predict where this is going. The book spans life in a Jewish family in Germany from the 1870s to the 1930s.

[Chris Ryan]

Can't blame Kevin Badullah for that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, equal levels of not seeing the field, I would say. So I was like, I will wind down by reading these chapters of this wonderful book. And like the first chapter I read was 1930. And I was like, this is going about as well as the second half.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Didn't really take the edge off. History is a terrible spoiler sometimes.

[Chris Ryan]

I think we're underselling the return of one of our favorite TV shows of the last five years. So we can say that. Had you watched Industry last?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I saved it. I saved it. I mean, I saved myself. I watched Industry before Sunday.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I was slightly thinking, and we.

[Chris Ryan]

Are, we are going to be covering Industry episode by episode and we have not watched ahead, which is sometimes to the annoyance of, of the creators of Industry. I think they like to the whole picture to be seen. But you know, this is the way it's being released. So I think it like, it's a little healthier to watch it like the way that everybody else is, rather than be like, well, you, you guys just.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wait till episode four in Effinger's. The book I'm reading that would be called Being Volk, you know, like of the people.

[Chris Ryan]

I ain't saying Volk.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that what you were trying to say? I just wanted to like, relate it to my perspective, which is 1930s Germany.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you want to talk about the Eagles at all? Do you need to get anything off your chest? No, I feel like you have a lot today. Like I'm here to just throw bounce passes to you and then, and then screen away.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no, I think we should have started in a more healthy place.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which is acknowledging that one person in the room is an award winner today.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God. How could we forget kaia?

[Andy Greenwald]

Congratulations.

[Chris Ryan]

Kaia McMullen, one of the producers of Good Hang with Amy Poehler, which won the inaugural best Podcast award at the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Golden Globes, won it going away. If the branded polymarket content was anything to go on.

[Chris Ryan]

How much liquidity were you exposed to in that Polymart? Like, had you been betting on your own success or against it? Were you hedgin? What's a short that's how I feel. I'm shorting it. That's what Harper Stern would have shorted it, I guess.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

No, it was incredible. It was incredible. Amy getting up there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thanks, guys.

[Chris Ryan]

Shouting out Bill and the ringer and everybody, and, you know, a really, really amazing achievement.

[Andy Greenwald]

So congratulations.

[Chris Ryan]

I know. Seriously kicking them while they're down.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, by the way, the turnaround on the Globes, like, for the bit that Nikki Glazer did, which was funny and Mark Maron was a part of it. The clip they used from Good Hang was from the Gwyneth episode, which went up like five days ago. So they were on it. I know.

[Chris Ryan]

Current. Do you think that Globe should just start giving out awards for random other stuff?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, at this point.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

I felt like they had a little bit more dip on the chip for.

[Andy Greenwald]

The podcast awards and the standup comedy special award.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. But, like, maybe they differentiate themselves a little bit by doing like, getting a little, like, MTV Movie Awards kind of vibes of, like, best kiss kind of thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm ready to talk about this. I. And first of all, I, I, I thought, yeah, like, the way to spice it up would have been, like, if the smartless guys had kissed.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Then it would have been, we, we.

[Chris Ryan]

Can do the headline at the top.

[Andy Greenwald]

So the headline is, congratulations, Kya. The right woman and the right podcast won. That was thrilling. We can't believe you're here working with us again today. We're so sorry, but I guess that's life in Hollywood. You're the highs to the lows.

[Chris Ryan]

The subhead. Right. So it's like Jerome Powell being criminally investigated. Then it's like, oh, no, the money. Right. That's the subhead.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, no. Should I have my alerts on what's going on?

[Chris Ryan]

And then this. So the secondary head. We have nothing to talk about because this Golden Globes essentially mirrored the Emmys. With the exception of Ray Seahorn's victory for best actress drama, this was essentially chalk. It went Adolescence for best Limited, Adolescence won a bunch of the acting awards for limited series. Stephen Graham, Aaron Daugherty Doherty, Owen Cooper, all racked up victories there. The Pit won best drama, best actor, and the studio won best comedy and best actor. So all that stuff basically mirrored what happened in the Emmys several months ago. Yes, and I think that's fine. I don't really have a huge bit of arguing. Oh, Jean. Smart one for best comedy actress.

[Andy Greenwald]

Her date Casey Bloys looked great.

[Chris Ryan]

Was that her date?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no. Casey was at that table with the HBO gang. And he looked great.

[Chris Ryan]

So, yeah, congratulations to those shows. I think that this is indicative of how I believe that if you're going to do these TV awards, you should get a little bit more creative with the calendar.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. So I thought that was a relatively awful slog of a broadcast.

[Chris Ryan]

We couldn't do the broadcast. I just meant like the takeaways.

[Andy Greenwald]

But it would have been enlivened by some variety in the awards. But I also will circle back to this is year three, I believe, of the resurrected Golden Globes. And for those who haven't been paying attention at home, none of whom listen to this podcast, I imagine. But I don't know, maybe Kaya has a bandwagon or like, maybe maybe Travis Kelce's tuning in for the first time. It doesn't really know the history of the.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he was just hoping to hear about what happens to the Effingers.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think he's. Yeah, well, I'm happy to talk about.

[Chris Ryan]

It, but I think Travis Kelsey is like really mad that we didn't start with industry. No, he's.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's gonna. He. There's timestamps you can follow along. I do like this bit, though. What do you think Travis thought about that take? He. Anyway, so this is year three of the reboot at Golden Globes, and prior to the rebirth, it was an absolute dumpster fire of chaos, bribery and nonsense that often produced a relatively fun broadcast.

[Chris Ryan]

Product because it was skinny people drinking on empty stomachs.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well said. Yes, well said. It was a silly, drunken Hollywood party that no one took too seriously that also did have a chaotic energy because the six overserved Belgian journalists who voted for it would could be swayed in ways that created unexpected results at times. And I point to this constantly, but the benefit of its place in the calendar and its differentiation from the Emmys in terms of like its window of what it considered allowed for it to be at the tip of the, as they say, in terms of anointing the next big shows. Homeland winning when it had only been as best drama series when its first season was still fresh. It had been airing for like two months. I think. 2011, I think that was as an example. Everything has gotten much more chalk and in its new version. And the other reason why I think it's worth pointing out now is because when it was rebooted, there was a pretty disastrous broadcast that Jo Koy hosted. I'm not saying it was his fault. Nobody pointed to that as a particularly great night.

[Chris Ryan]

I had forgotten that, honestly.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Glazer came on Last year and to her credit stabilized it as a relatively like, okay, I recognize this as an award show. She did a good job. She did a fine job again last night. She's a very decent host of these things. She had her moments. But as we also know, hosts can't make or break an award show.

[Chris Ryan]

I am a fan of hers.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, this broadcast though and the awards, I don't understand what its purpose is if it has now become so respectable as to basically with a few one or two exceptions, Wagner Mora being the biggest one, they just seems to validate the poly market pre existing thinking of what the night is going to be.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then you pair it with an absolutely amateur hour broadcast which we can get into. It was kind of a giant shrug. I don't take any argument like adolescents in the studio were in our top five. Those shows are amazing. The people who won deserve to have won. But if you're just going to run back the Emmys and preview and rubber stamp the Oscars, what's the point?

[Chris Ryan]

I agree with you. Obviously there is the money to be made that it's on CBS and it is clear, really something that whatever reservations people had about its past or the fact that it is owned and operated I believe by Todd Boli and Penske Media, which is essentially like it's Penske Media.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, yeah. So who own, who own all the trades? Hollywood Reporter, Variety and Deadline are all owned by the same company.

[Chris Ryan]

And so. And now it's like basically an extension of that. I think it is still voted on a group of foreign journalists.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think it's necessarily foreign anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh really?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think, I think they've. They've made the Golden Globes great again.

[Chris Ryan]

They've got.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, they've brought the voter, they've brought the voting home.

[Chris Ryan]

Regardless. It's not a clear. I, I do not have clarity on like who is voting for Globes. Right. Like the way you do for, for the Academy Awards or for the Guilds. I agree with you. I think it kind of like if anything it's bad for the Oscars. I would say like having a show where broadcast on a major network where the contestants are all in attendance and for the most part, with the exception of like a few people like Ricky.

[Andy Greenwald]

Gervais, Michelle Williams and Bobby Cannavale. Not nominated but not there.

[Chris Ryan]

But Shop Wizard. Yes. Right. It just kind of like takes a little bit of the, a couple of miles per hour off the Oscars. Especially since the Oscars are running so late. They're in March.

[Andy Greenwald]

They haven't even. The nominations haven't even come out yet.

[Chris Ryan]

I know. Now we can get into. If you wanted to. I mean, I think Sean and Amanda are obviously much better qualified. Qualified to talk about Hamnet beating sinners and whether that means it's like an Oscar race now for Best Picture and what's going on there. But with the exception of Pluribus, I thought there was a lack of creativity now. I think it would have been sort of silly. I think the Pit and Adolescents and the studio did made a very good case to win all of those awards. So it's not like I'm upset about it, but it just does feel like we're watching the same show over and over again at a certain point.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it just seems. Starts to seem like a bizarre humiliation ritual for the people involved in severance to be drawn out.

[Chris Ryan]

That's exactly right.

[Andy Greenwald]

This fucking hospital show came out of nowhere. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Basically what you're left with is observations about that broadcast. Now, I have a couple of like, just news and notes here.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure, let's do it.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk a little bit about how the Globes made a choice to cram every inch and centimeter of broadcast space, both in terms of visuals and audio insanity with shit. With stuff. Yeah. So not only did we have, you know, you got your traditional awards set up, but then we also had playbooks by play announcers Kevin Frazier and Mark Malkin.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Narrating, I guess, the events of the evening so that there was no dead time in between somebody being named the winner.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And them getting to the stage. Now, I will just say that doesn't seem like any. An amount of time that is fixed. Like it could take no time at all. It could take a little bit of time to get up there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, like people need help getting up in their heels and stuff like that. Like, there's all this stuff and they always seem to nail the amount. Like, I was impressed with Mark Malcolm being able to say Leonardo DiCaprio, blah, blah, blah, and we'll see with. And then he would end as the guy got up on stage.

[Andy Greenwald]

Respect. But that's your clip because if you want to go viral, Chris saying, I was impressed with Mark Malkin last night, I think. I think you are alone with that take.

[Chris Ryan]

That is the extent of my being impressed. I do not know anything about him or Kevin Frazier for that matter.

[Andy Greenwald]

You don't watch a lot of.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, this is something that we do not need as a society. We do not need play by play for the five seconds it takes racyhorn to get up on stage.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was hideous television. Truly. And they talked more than any Nick winner talked.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

When they weren't talking, the same person who controls the aux cord at a senior center Jazzercise class in fucking North Hollywood was rocking the room.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stellan Skarsgard wins. And maybe they have announcers and they have an. Like an overcompensating dj because the Beverly Hilton's a relatively small, dense room and people have to navigate cause only the superstars are in the front. So that was a long journey for an older man who suffered. He's talked about. He's had a stroke three years ago. So it took him a minute. And he was in no hurry. He was being greeted, he was being celebrated. I do think, I do wonder if there was a little bit of like little. Little and little andor energy fueling that win just because people.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you mean?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, just that like people vote for Stellan Skarsgard because he's one of the great actors of his generation.

[Chris Ryan]

Sentimental value was like an andor appreciation vote.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I'm just saying I wonder if that moved the needle at all.

[Chris Ryan]

People were like, I absolutely don't think so.

[Andy Greenwald]

You don't think so? You don't think people are like. I have been reminded.

[Chris Ryan]

They would have nominated.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, we don't know who's voting on these awards. I don't know if the movie and the tv.

[Chris Ryan]

You're exactly right, man. That's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

We can't say clip when Chris says, you're exactly right, man. I'm trying to control this thing from the outside, the booth. Like Kevin Petullo on the sideline, you know what I'm saying? I'm going empty when I shouldn't be. Long walk. Little John's. Yeah. Is playing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like on repeat. Because it takes so long for him to get up there. What about when Jesse Buckley won? That was a lovely moment for a movie I promise you I will never see. Damnet. Yeah, no, thanks. Thanks. I'm good. I'm fine.

[Chris Ryan]

Just because of the content.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like watch.

[Chris Ryan]

Because you don't think before.

[Andy Greenwald]

Has there been a cinematic exploration of grief over child death like this? I'm like, I'll take your word for it. Congrats. I ain't reading all that. You know what I mean? I'm not on the big picture like some of us. I'm good. They're playing Isn't she lovely? She's walking up there. I thought that was incredible. But anyway, it was the.

[Chris Ryan]

I have to admit when the last 45 minutes. This show was honestly so irritating that after Kya's big win, my wife and I were like, let's get beers. So we went out and I just.

[Andy Greenwald]

Out for beers. Yeah. You didn't have any beers in the house.

[Chris Ryan]

We just decided to get out of the house. I had subjected her to a long day of me. She was like, this is the longest football game that's ever happened.

[Andy Greenwald]

It truly was my favorite. So they're doing the announcements. I just want to return to this everyone's favorite and Timothee Chalamet wins for my favorite movie of the three movies I saw last year, Marty supreme, you saw One battle.

[Chris Ryan]

Sinners and Marty Supreme.

[Andy Greenwald]

They didn't see Sinners.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, you saw One Battle.

[Andy Greenwald]

Half the Golden Globe voters didn't see Sinners. But proud of its box office achievement, I will see it. No, I saw don't write Yourself checks, you Kid Cash. I think that I can make it to seeing Sinners on my television at some point in the next four or five weeks. I saw K Pop Demon Hunters. You want to care to comment?

[Chris Ryan]

I haven't seen it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, they were like, this is a direct quote. Well, Timothy thanked his girlfriend at the Critics Choice Awards. Will he thank her again tonight?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I saw it when he said that. I was just like, mark, stay in your lane, brother. Like, don't, don't worry about who he's. Who he's thinking.

[Andy Greenwald]

What about when adolescence like one swept like one for series I don't remember was its final award and the comment was, wow, adolescence has swept these awards. Do we really have to wait two to three years for another one?

[Chris Ryan]

There is another one.

[Andy Greenwald]

They're making another one.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that was like, news to me. But then apparently he has said, like, yeah, we'll return to adolescence in a little while.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is it going to be someone else's adolescence?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I think it'll probably be following up with where I think they should.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just do someone else's adolescence. Someone with like a chill adolescence.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, somebody who's just like hanging out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Somebody gets really into the x men at 12 and it's just like, oh, it's interesting. It's a metaphor.

[Chris Ryan]

So you have a very specific idea.

[Andy Greenwald]

About whose adolescence I don't think it should be fucking hamnets adolescence.

[Chris Ryan]

It should be oners of you drinking a Diet Coke. Like, what is it?

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, I should drink Diet Coke. When I was a kid, it was the straight stuff. That's why I am the way I am. I'm saying it won't be hamnets adolescence. You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

From what I gather, yeah, that was awful. What did you. Did you enjoy as. As the podcast resident heated rivalry fan, did you enjoy the moment to celebrate the UFC before they entered?

[Chris Ryan]

That was cbs.

[Andy Greenwald]

What do you.

[Chris Ryan]

CV at Paramount has purchased the rights to the. The broadcast rights to the ufc.

[Andy Greenwald]

So that was just them, like, reminding.

[Chris Ryan]

Us, putting a little bit of Marmite on top of the toast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think they also use the UFC people to make sure that not a single nominee said anything remotely political all night?

[Chris Ryan]

It's a really good point.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was notable.

[Chris Ryan]

Gene Smart was the closest who got. I mean, if Hannah Einbinder had won, she would have.

[Andy Greenwald]

She just lit everything.

[Chris Ryan]

She would have let him know.

[Andy Greenwald]

She would have brought the contra fire flamethrower with her.

[Chris Ryan]

She also had to watch the Eagles game, too.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's true. So she was already in a foul temper.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I did note with interest that there was a real lack of sloganeering, a real lack of any kind of political rhetoric whatsoever.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought that R. Scott Gemmell, when he won for the Pit, made a very nice comment about how working on artistic projects brings people together, which is much like making a podcast, you know, much like the X Men. It's all basically one good time, bunch of guys hanging out, having a good time.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought that the heated rivalry guys were quite good.

[Andy Greenwald]

They were sweet.

[Chris Ryan]

They. I. I wonder whether or not that's a phenomenon that has permeated, say, the. The one battle after another table, you know, like, who. Who among the celebs were aware of that? Of that. That. The rocking, you know, superstardom that's happening to those guys.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think people. I.

[Chris Ryan]

One other note I had just here is, like, I guess, like, this Hacks bear thing is over now. The Bear still has more Emmys than hacks, but it does feel like it's been, like, two or three years nonstop of, like, hacks dubs. Listen, this is my least. I'm. This is the thing. I am least interested in the world. But I did note when it was like, oh, yeah, I forgot. Like, the Bear is nominated. Like, Jeremy Allen White's nominated. All this stuff is nominated.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, we should do a bit that's just, like, admittedly concern trolling, because I don't think either you or I care about this, and yet Jeremy Allen White. Are we sure?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I. I'm sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I'm sure because he's a wonderful actor and people love him. But I'm just saying he's had to, like, now sort of show up, get glammed up. To lose for the bear multiple times. And now to lose for the Springsteen movie, a movie which he poured his heart and soul into. That was not greeted with hungry hearts, let's say.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. I think that.

[Andy Greenwald]

And now he's gonna be a Hutt in your number one. 20, 26.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. Like, he didn't have to get into.

[Andy Greenwald]

He mocapped the worm suit. You don't think he did.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this in Grogu? It's Mandalorian and Grogu mng. Yeah, we can talk about that if you want to.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't want to at all. We're gonna have to at some point.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. That was really. I thought Wando Sykes was really funny.

[Andy Greenwald]

I got two other notes. Yeah, I thought I was awesome. Rose Byrne. One for Again, a movie I haven't seen, but I'd like to try.

[Chris Ryan]

You're gonna try. You're gonna watch. If I had legs, I'd kick you.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're not gonna watch beforehand. Well, which one do you. Have you seen either of these movies?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, so this is again, this is how you stay winning somehow. The terms of debate have been set by Mr. Cool over here. Wow, you're really gonna choose that movie I haven't seen over the other movie I've seen?

[Chris Ryan]

I haven't gotten to it yet.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, you've been going to parties. What have you been doing?

[Chris Ryan]

I've been watching fucking prestige television.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, that makes two of us. Anyway, I just. I like Rose Byrne a lot as an actor. I thought that was awesome. I thought it was very sweet because she was so surprised. It was a great moment on stage for, as she said, a smile movie. Winning these things is more meaningful. Similarly, like Bogdar Mora, who's a really good actor, winning for a movie that I also is on my list. Would love to see Secret Agent. I also really appreciated that Rose Byrne thanked her date, her brother, George Byrne, who's a great photographer. I have one of his prints.

[Chris Ryan]

Geez.

[Andy Greenwald]

Very talented photographer. Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

You contain multitudes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'd like to keep a couple things held back. Three things secret.

[Chris Ryan]

Little like, I'm an art guy. Thing is like. Is interesting to me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think?

[Chris Ryan]

Because you're not just like, I go to museums.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But you're like, I like to dabble in collecting.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. When I had an overall deal at Universal, I was dabbling. I bought one picture, but sometimes I'll like, post. It's not like I can go to Ford to go to Max and Helen's stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

And you'll be like, where did you. Did you purchase that? Where'd you see that?

[Andy Greenwald]

I never asked if you purchased that. Yeah, I asked like, if you went to see Helen Frankenthaler at MoMA. I didn't say, did you purchase one of the five artists works hanging in the gallery. Did you? No. Okay. No. Also, I led.

[Chris Ryan]

That's why I need Jerome palace to stand fair.

[Andy Greenwald]

I led a stacked podcast with a small Teehee admission that I've been enjoying an 800 page German novel from 1951. No one's like, oh, does he like art? Find a new slant. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, as someone who has also recently been asked to investigate the purchase or adoption of a bearded dragon for the household.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, what's up? Is that a new thing? Is that, like, why are kids getting into that classrooms?

[Andy Greenwald]

They are hardy pets for classrooms. So, like, you know, we used to have, when we were kids, we had like gerbils or like guinea pigs.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Now, at least in my, you know, however many years I've been a parent now, I should know that number 12 and a half. It's lizards exclusively. Lizards.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

And bearded dragons seem like fine lizards.

[Chris Ryan]

They sit there, party like they can be pet a lot or like hardy.

[Andy Greenwald]

They don't have to give the death talk too often.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So they should see Hamnet.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I'm saying. Keep it separate. Yeah, Hamnet. But about Hamnet's pet drag, bearded dragon.

[Chris Ryan]

We don't know for sure. We don't even know if Shakespeare actually wrote Hamlet. You know what I mean? There's some debate about that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

So who's to say that his kid didn't have a bearded dragon?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's lost to the mysteries of time. Too bad there's not an effinger's like, history of the life of the Shakespeare family. I thought that was very sweet, the Rose Byrne thing and yeah, like the bagner Mora winning best actor and Secret Agent winning foreign film.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, awesome movie, by the way.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's kind. You did see it.

[Chris Ryan]

I did see Secret Agent, yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is kind of what the Golden Globes used to do, both because of the international perspective or whatever it may have been and the kind of slight element of surprise. And I think that's ultimately good. So I think going into the Oscar nominations, like, oh, is Rose Byrne a player now? Is Wagner Mora a player now? Does Hamnet have the inside track over sinners in the what is going to be one battle conversation? Sure. That stuff's interesting to me, and one battle is awesome. That was really cool when Teyana Taylor won. And PTA giving very nice speeches.

[Chris Ryan]

Speaking of that. Speaking of that speech, the PTA speech, how do you say the last name of the man who wrote Gravity's Rainbow?

[Andy Greenwald]

I was gonna ask you this because.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel like I just. Like Paul Thomas Anderson would know, Unless.

[Andy Greenwald]

We'Ve been saying his name wrong, and it's Paul Thomas Anderson because he said Thomas.

[Chris Ryan]

I have been saying Thomas Pinchin for my whole life.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, Like Thomas Pinchin.

[Chris Ryan]

Pinchin.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But he said Pinchon.

[Andy Greenwald]

He did.

[Chris Ryan]

And I don't know whether that's, like, a valley thing or that was like, I'm just. I'm just letting it loose. Like, I. Like, I have. What do they call? Malapropisms or whatever? Like, sometimes I like, Missay something or whatever. But I feel like he would know. And that's a name that he is. Like, he might even have Thomas Pinchon's public dress.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's probably communicated with him at some point. Yeah. Also, this is. I just want to point out the man of the people thing. You're wearing a Liverpool sweatshirt, a Phillies hat.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you are. This is the most heated you've gotten so far in our podcast over the pronunciation of cult novelist Thomas Pynchon's name.

[Chris Ryan]

I just wouldn't want to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who's the art guy?

[Chris Ryan]

I wouldn't want to be mispronouncing the great man's name for this long. In fact, I was dapping myself up for reading Vineland last year.

[Andy Greenwald]

You mean Vineland.

[Chris Ryan]

And maybe it is. Maybe it is.

[Andy Greenwald]

We don't know. And frankly, we have no way of ever finding out. That was interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

There were people who were much more like, it's Grantland, not Grantland. Grantland. That's how I say it. But maybe that's like a Philly thing, you know? Maybe it's like a casual kind of. You kind of swallow the end of the word thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hmm. You think that, like, Californians are more confident.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Thomas Pynchon.

[Andy Greenwald]

What voice is that?

[Chris Ryan]

That's like, surfer dude.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

Like nasally, kind of California valley hanging out, reading Thomas Pynchon.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think a lot of surfers like Mason and Dixon. What is the Venn diagram of this particular character that you're creating for us?

[Chris Ryan]

You know a lot about Southern California.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know, but I just feel like you are micro targeting right now. I'm not mad at it. That's what I usually do.

[Chris Ryan]

That's all I got for The Globe. So Kya was there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Were there. Were there after parties for the podcast? No. Anything?

[Chris Ryan]

I had my own personal after party.

[Andy Greenwald]

At a sushi restaurant, but.

[Chris Ryan]

Nice. You had quite a weekend or quite like an extended weekend. Right? I mean, I worked a lot. No, I wasn't saying you didn't provide value to the company, to the shareholders. I just meant it was like a fun weekend. It was like, you know, there was the Globes party. Yeah. Chris and I partied it up at the Globes party at Andy's. Fine.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was the party that Chris cleared the lane. He made sure that I wasn't there dragging you guys down, which I respect. Tim Simon's like, are you here? I was like, talk to your friend Chris. I would have been. Must be nice. You didn't make the. The. The. The photo carousel, though, of, like, Starry Night at the Hollywood Reporter Spotify party. It was the front page over the weekend.

[Chris Ryan]

I did get. I got my picture taken with Tim at that party, and he was trying to give me tips about it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I think I just looked like a. A balding accountant at that party, so I'm not surprised I didn't make the Hollywood Reporter carousel.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sorry to go against the grain here, but the Hollywood Reporter ran a series of photos from the night. It was the headline over the weekend. They were very proud of their party. And it was like John Legend at the party. And then it was like, Chaka Khan at the party. Maybe there's one of the heated rivalry people.

[Chris Ryan]

The guy who plays Scott.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. And the kid from Sinners was there. So there's pictures of these people. Yeah. And then there was a picture of Tim. He looked great. He's the king of the red carpet these days. Looks amazing. Proud of him. And then it was like the circulation director for Hollywood Reporter and Penske Media on the couch, and I told him he was correctly placed in the carousel. But if the circulation manager got on the couch, I'm just saying, was Bill.

[Chris Ryan]

And did Bill make a carousel?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but I thought Bill was just doing a drive by.

[Chris Ryan]

He stayed a little longer than I think he thought he was going to. But that's just because, you know, his homies were there.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's nice. His homies Miles, Caden and Chaka Khan.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Without Internet, you wouldn't be able to hear my beautiful voice right now, and businesses wouldn't be able to stay connected the way they need. What if I told you that business owners can get free business Internet advantage forever when you add four or more mobile lines. Spectrum Business keeps you connected seamlessly with Internet, advanced WI fi, phone, TV and mobile services all in packages tailored to your business budget. No contracts, no added fees. All you have to do to find out how you can get free Spectrum Business Internet [e-mail] freeforlife. That's where you go. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Vuori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lat. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably going to see me wearing some Viori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to viori.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Vuori. V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons enjoy free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. This episode is brought to you by two Good and company Coffee Creamers. How do you take your coffee? Piping hot ice? Strong, frothy? Well, if you love rich creamy goodness and delicious flavor in every sip, try two Good and company Creamers. They're made with farm Fresh cream and real milk. Each serving has just 3 grams of sugar, 40% less than the leading coffee creamers. Two good creamers are available in sweet cream, roasted, vanilla and lavender. So which one are you trying first? Find two Good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. One of the most useful things in my life lately has been my Apple Card. Great for game nights, vacations, just life in general and applying was so easy and quick. You can apply, see your credit limit offer and if approved you can start using your card in minutes. Do it while watching a basketball game. You could start making purchases with Apple Pay before halftime even rolls around. I also love how I can get up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. That's more daily cash to use for game tickets. I feel like I scored big time when I started using Apple Card. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone. Start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com.

[Chris Ryan]

Let'S do industry do you want to let's Talk a little bit of big picture here.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's do it.

[Chris Ryan]

Among my favorite shows of the decade.

[Andy Greenwald]

Absolutely.

[Chris Ryan]

One of, I think, like the shows we've been most. If we could be proud of a show, I think we're proud of industry, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, this is something that we jumped on early on, like from the earliest days of its release. I, I was very curious about it. And it. To see it not only find a bigger audience, but also to watch this, like the swagger it has now is like really something pretty awesome. Like it. It is nothing to do with it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Rave reviews. Rave reviews. Universal. Not just a claim, but universal coverage, which was not the case for season one. And we were joking about that. And I would say that for as much as we've spent a lot of time talking over the last few weeks and months about how the Pit, which also returned over the weekend, over the last few days, represents something that we love about television and we have always loved about television in terms of just like the reliable clockwork, here's a setting, here's people you don't know yet, but you will fall in love with, and you can sort of set your watch to it, but you give yourself over to it. That aspect of TV that we grew up with, the other part of TV that keeps me fascinated, keeps me affectionate, keeps me passionate, keeps me wanting to work in and around it is the way that TV can grow and evolve over time. And especially combined with opportunity, with good fortune, with good casting, with good taste, and with a certain level, and in the case of Mickey down and Conrad K, as we're about to talk about it, quite a bit of fearlessness. These things can evolve beyond anything we, or maybe even the creators could imagine. And seeing that development over seasons is both exciting and rare. In a time when fear still does kind of dominate in the executive suite, where opportunities are fewer and where a lot of these streaming services either pull the plug early on stuff or cap things.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Two seasons, three seasons, stay in your lane, that kind of conversation with a network. So that also feeds us.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I think also there's a boldness to the, honestly, like the, for lack of a better term, the geography of the show. Because a lot of TV shows, even if they go through reinventions, stay rooted in, you know, Oz stays in the prison until the prison is no more and justified more or less bangs around the hollers and, you know, long running shows that like, are essentially like, maybe have good seasons, bad seasons up, seasons down seasons, or are relentlessly creative still kind of Keep to a baseline of experiences that you can have in the show. Now, there's consistency in industry in terms of the way people talk and what they're talking about, and maybe even the Nathan McKay soundtrack. Although I think that they have, like, obviously started to invest more in. In needle drops as. As the years have gone on. But the thing that really struck me about this one, and the creators have talked about it being kind of a soft reboot for the show or the idea of basically refueling the plane midair, is how I never know where the next scene is going to be. And that is still a sensation that I think is thrilling. Now it might be. It takes away a little bit of the quote, unquote reliability factor of television because you're just like, okay, now we're going to go to this place always in. In Mad Men, they're going to go back to the office at some point. There is no office in industry anymore. Now they may start one and there may be a pure point, you know, in name at everything but name.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but I think that, like, Sterling Cooper Draper Price. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The thing that excites me about the show is moments like Rishi's corporate espionage gig or political espionage gig that he's doing for Harper, and he shows up in a bar that looked a lot like the Devonshire, but I don't think was and is sort of kind of haunting the. The sort of outer edges of a wake that's happening there, and steals a guy's phone to get some political information to supply Harper so that she can short this company. We'll get into all of that. Just even going to that bar, like most TV shows would not scout a new place, find a existing bar. I do not think they built that on a set and go shoot there with a ton of extras to give you a sense of, like, London as a living, breathing place where shit like this is happening on a Wednesday or a Thursday. That's so exciting. Like, that's a quality that this show has that I can't think of another current show that has that right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Rishi scene may have been my favorite in the episode. And before we get into the specifics, I just want to follow up on what you said, which was creators have talked about it as a soft reboot. This is a hard reboot.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was trying to think of any other shows, contemporary or not, that have attempted to kind of speed race a completely new protagonist and a completely new status quo concurrently in a season premiere. Like, for example, with Mad Men, the show would evolve and the firm changed, but the principles stayed the same. The trappings and the circumstance changed. When we would talk about shows that really not just revolutionize transformation and evolution within serialized narratives, but shows that really set the template. The Wire, for example.

[Chris Ryan]

Season two.

[Andy Greenwald]

Each season, in a way, but season two certainly more than any other. But the one thing that the Wire did was it was expanding the aperture of its view of the city. So the police department was the police department, but there were different nodes connecting it now to city hall or to the docks or to the school system. And they would fold them in until they were all existing concurrently. Like McNulty, again, his circumstances and his sobriety changed, but he was. He was still a Baltimore police, as they say.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

This show is not doing that. And the degree of difficulty for this premiere cannot be overstated. And I think any hesitation I have in giving it a full throated five star review because again, we've only seen one, is mostly because I'm dazzled at the audacity of it and trying to keep up with the changes. There is no. And I feel like this is relevant to the characters in industry. There is no safe word for this show. There really isn't a home base to return to, to make the audience. And I will admit this is a kind of a basic asset on the couch kind of take here. Oh, okay. Well, we're in a place I've been before and I've seen it. I know what the stakes are here. They're not giving us that, which I commend, but takes a second, especially when we are giving so much screen time to so much new, so many new players, so much new content, and so many new levels of interaction. Can you think of anything that has attempted this or that it made you feel like. And I don't mean to put you on the spot, because I thought about it all weekend.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I mean, I think The Wire Season 2 would be the closest thing I can think of in terms of the season starts. I can't remember in my mind whether I knew that that was coming or not. I don't remember.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, the Wire, the infrastructure ecosystem was different.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. It wasn't like they were doing tons of short form video to be like, just so you know, this is what's gonna happen. You know, it was like, if I remember correctly, I was like, so where's Omar? You know, like, I think if you were watching this, you might be like, where's Henry Muck? Where's. Where's Eric? You know, like, you might be looking for people that you've become close to. You might be like, where's Rob? Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or you understand? And again, like, we have weeks to talk about this and unpack it and see where it goes. I think one of the, one of the things that made Industry season three not just the best season of the show thus far, but like, I think it was our number one the year that our number one TV show of the year, the year that it aired, was because Mickey and Conrad understood in their bones the rhythms of the show they'd created and that this had reached its end point, that there was nowhere else to go with this structure of peerpoint and everything that it entailed. So all in on that. But it is worth noting that one of the things that peerpoint provided was a structure for the viewer to understand, oh, the characters are out, out doing drugs and, and boning each other until dawn. That will have an impact on their workday. Thus, when I see them at work, I carry that context so I understand the stakes of all their decision making. Now that Harper is still, you know, a complete chaos agent and a heliocentric ball stopper, I would say, in terms of financial flow and also information flow. But she's the boss, but she's not quite the boss yet. Again, the episode had to remind us of that. Okay, well, she can behave this way in this context, but Hugo Masnessness still at least believes that he's pulling her strings. Thus the Eric thing. I'm not saying the premiere didn't give us the context. I'm saying we're starting from scratch.

[Chris Ryan]

It's just also moved incredibly quickly and it had a lot of moments that like, for instance, the opening sequence of the show features Charlie Heaton, who people probably recognize Some Stranger Things, playing a financial journalist who, when the show starts.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I haven't been a journalist in a while, but his behavior tracked with how I remember being a journalist.

[Chris Ryan]

But when the show starts, he is essentially stalking Kiernan Shipka's Haley character as she goes through like a night out, starting at a wine bar, going to a nightclub, he hooks up with her.

[Andy Greenwald]

This tracks with my experience in London too. Every austere wine bar with a beautifully steamed piece of hake ends with an all night nightclub where they exclusively play New Order remixes.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. I mean, a boy can dream. And then the next morning, he reveals that he is in fact a German journalist and that he is looking into Kiernan Shipka's character's boss's behavior.

[Andy Greenwald]

And her boss, he made her coffee too. So let's not.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean like, yeah, they cut away. We don't know exactly what happened. You know, he could have just been.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, she woke up fully clothed.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. He's like, why don't we just catch up on Landman.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's cuddle. Yeah. And watch Land.

[Chris Ryan]

Their eagles. Highlights are on. You want to check that out?

[Andy Greenwald]

Snooze.

[Chris Ryan]

Her boss is played by Max Minghaela who is a co leader of a company called Tender which is currently at the start of the show. Is basically like a Stripe or PayPal for porn sites.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And they are working for their primary client or one of their primary clients is this company Siren, which is like an only fans esque kind of user generated content place.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that is ascendant. It's like, it's like starting to devour the marketplace.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And concurrent with that, the British government is starting to get into online safety acts. Mentions Siren by name. There's in. In the House of Commons where they're talking about bringing a bill or, or making some new laws that would restrict the sort of access people have to this or whether or not it's even legal at all to do it. So that dovetails quite nicely with Whitney, Max Mihaila's character, who is looking to diversify war. What Tender does and wants it to not only be like that, he doesn't want them to just be money launderers for porn companies. He wants them to be like a 21st century financial institution.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like a post bank. Bank nimble for the world that is no longer show. They don't want to be the PayPal of Bukaki anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

And he's been going to Africa every couple of weeks to expand the footprint of the company. Meanwhile, Cal Pen, who plays a guy named Jay, I believe. Right, right. Jonah, what's his name?

[Andy Greenwald]

You're the one that takes the notes.

[Chris Ryan]

I just, I'm just, I'm just vibing. I mean he plays Atterberry I think is his name, his character's name, his last name. He just wants to party and hook up with girls and vape in the office and just. He's like, we've, we've iterated enough. This is an awesome life. We're rich.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. We, we have zip ups, quarter zips with our name on it, our company's name on it.

[Chris Ryan]

And so there's that tension now that takes up half the episode. Half the episode is about new characters, new companies, new ideas.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're right. His name is Jay, by the way.

[Chris Ryan]

Great. And we're being asked to understand a lot about English government, English laws, financial institutions that we've not familiar with, financial journalists investigating those financial institutions. All the while, in the sort of side is Harper, who is running, like.

[Andy Greenwald]

A new shop under Moston Asset Management.

[Chris Ryan]

The umbrella of Otto Mawson, who is the sort of, like, lord from the third season, who recognizes in Harper a kindred kind of outlaw spirit. And he has set her up with her own shop underneath his kind of investment bank or whatever he's got going on. And her job is to essentially find companies to short important. But what happens is she starts wanting to short companies that are run by friends of Otto, and they have a big showdown. He. They sever their relationship. And by the end of the episode, Harper has talked Eric into coming back from the Hamptons, it looks like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Or Jersey, because he's.

[Chris Ryan]

I. Oh, he's at a Trump course. Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's playing. I mean, I can't believe. I mean, first of all, kudos to Mickey and Conrad. They got. They got. They got a 45. I'm sorry, 45. 47 cameo.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

Huge. Can't believe the show's not moving to CBS. But he's on a golf course. Yes. Yeah. And he's not satisfied.

[Chris Ryan]

Trump or Eric?

[Andy Greenwald]

Both of the great men. Neither great men is really satisfied.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Eric doesn't like heaven. He's retired. He's playing golf. They go to get steaks and have sex with. With young ladies, and he's just like, the action is the juice. I gotta get back to work. So he goes back to England. He hooks back up with Harper. They're gonna start a new shop. And I think that what we're gonna get based on this first episode is seeing characters, see how far they can push things. Because I think, to me, this episode was about ethics or the abandonment of ethics. Oh, yeah, to some extent. Hmm. What'd you think of them?

[Andy Greenwald]

Where do you stand on. On ethics?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I think we're watching them erode, go away.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I think we're watching the. The slow degradation of an idea of, like, an internal moral compass. And it's because of the elevation of industries like finance, because they're like, look, the only thing that matters is, like, your margin of victory. So you could say, oh, it's always been like this. It was just dressed up like guys like Otto. But. But what is the moral compass of the people who are making these decisions, who are going after stories, who are going into Africa to promote financial institutions? Like, what is. What is guiding them, aside from Power and victory and wealth.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I think fundamentally, one of the reasons why the show is so successful is because it is one of the few entertainments of our era that is willing to run right at the emptiness that is at the core of basically everything we do.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I don't just mean like that we have a job just talking about stuff twice a week because I love our job. And, you know, now that we are recognized by the Golden Globes. Not us, but, like the category.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, hopefully we can continue to build, you know, equity. I don't know. But, like, you know, to watch. To watch football in America yesterday is not just to experience massive disappointment and embarrassment and shame. It's also to see that every commercial is either for drug, medication or AI. Yep. And the entire economy is just AI being propped up.

[Chris Ryan]

You do wonder whether any other company in the world has any money.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I mean. Yeah. And that the.

[Chris Ryan]

What, Harper, we literally can't get a Nike ad.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

No.

[Andy Greenwald]

And what Harper does and what all of the. You know, and we're like, oh, we don't really understand financials. That's because the product that they do is fanduel for corporations. Right. It is all betting and hedging and shorting on the potential growth of things as opposed to. And I mean, I'm not. This is not me on a soapbox, but like, instead of actually the company making something or doing something. Right.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, doesn't Whitney say something like that? He's like, we're just like taking things that people don't need to them a.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great speech about what capitalism is and what online stuff is and what the service they provide and how, like. Well, at least in these tough, you know, these uncertain economic times, like masturbation remains like a reliable engine of commerce and of interest. So what I like about the decoupling from the sort of at this point show, the perform, the performance based, like, old world security of a bank, is that all of these people are degenerates and they're doing the same things they were doing before under increasingly changed or compromised context. So I went from thinking that Rishi had also reached a natural endpoint with the extremity of his final scene in season three to realizing that he is maybe the ideal avatar for this kind of storytelling in season four. I thought that scene was phenomenal because the abilities that he has in the workplace of Pierpoint are in no way separate from the degeneracy of his life as a gambler. And now what is left to him as a career is a sort of bizarre amalgamation of both.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, now he's just like a hired gun. And it's not even like that he's a hired gun. To do the things that he was doing at Purepoint, Harper seems too risky is. Well, what Harper seems to have recognized in him is his ability to be multiple people at once.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, and to live these secret lives and to keep plates spinning in the air. So it's not really his financial acumen that she's going after. It's his ability to walk into a wake and pretend like he belongs there and then steal a guy's phone and then replace it and then immediately give that information to Harper. Or maybe I can't remember. I guess he didn't replace it. I think he just straight up stole it. He didn't?

[Andy Greenwald]

No. He brought the phone back.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, he did.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if he emailed it to himself and deleted the scent. I don't know. Harper ended up with the speech that was going to be delivered in Parliament, but he put the guy's phone back in his bag so he would find it later. And he finished his gin and tonic and then went about his day.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the button pushing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, just to say that sometimes the hardest things that season premieres have to do in ongoing shows is to walk back decisions that made that were very dramatically evocative in the previous season finale.

[Chris Ryan]

That would be one that you're talking.

[Andy Greenwald]

About bringing Eric back. And I thought this was done. I was gonna commend that because I think the show, and I think you agree with this, it really does sing when Ken Lung is back on screen, and particularly when he's paired with Myhalla. And I get that for marketing purposes and maybe for the long arc of the show, it's always been about Yasmine and Harper. But I think the Harper Eric dynamic is the beating heart of the show on a practical level. The Kyle Schwaber, if you will. I want it. If we're pivoting to baseball.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, he kind of makes the whole lineup work. So I liked the way he was brought back, and I liked their new dynamic as potentially, we see each other peers. But also, I don't care. Get him back. And that is the nuts and bolts of TV that I often enjoy. I don't care that he could not have been exiled further. We need him back. Let's move on.

[Chris Ryan]

And to the point that we were talking about earlier about the reinvention, but also There was a safer version to do this show. I mean, this show could have just stayed at Pierpoint for five seasons and season four could have been Harper has ascended to the top of peerpoint and Eric is now below her in the pick. You know, like the corporate pecking order. And they have each have, like, emotional and real blackmail over each other in the Game of Thrones. That's gonna happen within that. That, like, very specific physical context of we're on the trading floor, there's a C suite, but then they go out and get drinks and then they come back. Like there was a repetition happening. And now it is almost like much more run and gun. You know, I was going to call it guerrilla filmmaking, but they have obviously also. The other major development over the course of the series is Mickey and Conrad becoming more assured filmmakers and imparting a lot of their cinematic influence onto the show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, so wait, put a pin in that, because I do want to talk about that. I wondered, and I don't mean this to be under the category of concern trolling, but it's just something that I'm watching, is that this is a show that began again, essentially as a completely different show with completely. I'm not saying Mickey and Conrad were overmatched, but they were green. And the premise of the show, what the pilot promised, and we loved the pilot, was that these are. We're entering this financial institution at the lowest rung and seeing who is hungry enough, degenerate enough, driven enough, whatever, to ascend. And for as unconventional as a lot of the storytelling was in season one, you start at the bottom of the totem pole, looking up. That's conventional.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. That's Grey's Anatomy. It's the Pit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Exactly. I'm curious about the show's internal. What's the thing when you're gimbal, like the level in terms of where we are in relation to underdogs or overdogs. Because going into this episode, and again, in a consequence free, amoral universe, which is the show is now very confidently steering through. Maybe these are outdated terms, but everyone is an overdog right now on the show, maybe with the exception of Kiernan Shipka's Haley character, who is literally an assistant, everyone else is. We're at the highest level now. Harper's walking into these rooms as an equal.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll push back on that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that's fair. I think that she's still looked down upon for reasons that are cosmetic and racial and class and being an American and being an upstart as Hugo says to her, or she says to Hugo, like, you hired me because of what I look like. Right. And my attitude. That's fair. And I. And I overspoke. I. That was. I went too far on that.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I would just say that I think it's representative of the wild west feel that global finance has right now. You have these old storied institutions, Goldman's and. And, you know, whatevers. A lot of them got washed out in 08 anyway. I mean, some of those great big banks. I don't mean great like I loved them. I just mean like the big great.

[Andy Greenwald]

Banks of bank guys.

[Chris Ryan]

I was a layman guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

I kind of like Bear Stearns.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I got to go back and watch. Too big to fail to find. But think about how many household names did not exist five years ago now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, whether it's cryptocurrency stuff or whether it's AI stuff or whether it's just like, banks that get involved with the financing of the purchase of, like, European football clubs or how much private equity is out there where you're just like. So why is Redbird own this, like, now?

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, what about the. Like, I was reading the. The Times today and there was a comment about how David Ellison is seeking to become the most powerful executive in Hollywood history thanks to the backing of his father, currently the fifth richest person in the world.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And David Ellison was born in 1983 and started Skydance when he was 23 to make a movie called Flyboys because he was kind of into aerial tricks and was an amateur pilot.

[Chris Ryan]

Same.

[Andy Greenwald]

And now I know. But look how your careers diverge. You're still a better hang.

[Chris Ryan]

But we don't know. David could be an amazing hang.

[Andy Greenwald]

We.

[Chris Ryan]

We have to do the. Actually, David Ellison come on the pod, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

You want David Ellison to come on the pod.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, but no questions about the merger. Just. It's all just like a hang thing. Like, like, you know, like, it's just about, like, what are your. Who are your guys?

[Andy Greenwald]

Chris Ryan, the next anchor of the CBS Evening News. David Ellison, we salute you. You've made some bold choices, and we in America favor the vote.

[Chris Ryan]

Would you watch CBS Evening News? Was the anchor. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because I would support you. We've established there's a. And I was.

[Chris Ryan]

But you, like, don't listen to the rewatchables. Like, would you watch me every night as I reported the news?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I also watch Landman for you every week and you still have not seen a Miyazaki movie.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't.

[Andy Greenwald]

I Don't.

[Chris Ryan]

Don't blame me for Landman.

[Andy Greenwald]

You. You. You have on the hook for this episode.

[Chris Ryan]

All right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Episodes that most represented your own personal opinions about Woke in the workplace and what's happened on college campuses. Yeah, this is just.

[Chris Ryan]

I can tell you're chomping at the bit. Is there anything else you want to talk about?

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's go back to what you said.

[Chris Ryan]

Because we're still ambitions of the show.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was very notable in the opening particularly, which began just to bring it all the way back. You were talking about. Charlie Heaton is investigating and he's following two unknown characters circling each other, dancing in the club. And it was interesting to think about the transformation as the season was beginning. Again, what I love about the show is that evolution over time. But one of the things that the show started with and was it wasn't noisy. It was quite austere and minimalist. And also the way Lena Dunham directed the pilot was a lot about the lines, the coldness of everything. Nathan McKay's score did a lot of work. And it was also before they discovered what Cigar Radio was doing in the background as Rishi and how the noise of that became kind of the tempo of the show. But just think about it visually, from something that did seem rather austere and minimalist and cold and modern has started to turn under their directorial guise into something much more lush and sensual and baroque almost. And it wasn't. What's the Albert Finney eating movie?

[Chris Ryan]

Tom Jones.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. It wasn't Tom Jones esque like the season finale was last year. It wasn't the setting for that, but it was very visually different. Even the way the camera moved or didn't move in the Charlie Heat and Kieran Shipka like, table confrontation. I was like, okay, it's just a different show when visual style changes so much.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And also. But like, it's obviously something that they're thinking about a lot. And I thought that. I thought that they did a really great job of like, giving each new location and each new setting kind of a different visual language. Like, I thought Tender had so good at names, but it had a little bit more of like a. On its axis kind of like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Cause it's Canary Wharf dog.

[Chris Ryan]

I know. But then if it. When it's at night, it's so much more like the ecstasy is kicking in. And it's like everything is so lush and everything is kind of like the one perfect spotlight hitting Kieran Shipka as she's standing by the DJ booth. Because, like, the music Is promoting like this almost like fantasy land? Like it's just very smart filmmaking. It's accomplished filmmaking. I think they have like a long career ahead of them once they stop doing industry. But they can obviously take industry and make it into the movie of their dreams. Anyway.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you feel like it was a little too close to home? When there is the, you know, there's the dinner scene where lifelong friends who are about to have a. Frankly a rather dramatic rupture. Jay and Whitney go to dinner in London and one of them is just like sticking. Sticking to water and the other one like orders, let's say a second Murphy stout and the other. And one guy's. The other's like. I think you should be clear headed tomorrow. Cause we have a podcast. Did that remind you of anything from the fall?

[Chris Ryan]

It does remind me of your Dallas with na. Don't know if you want to talk about it.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but you know, I was just wondering if that struck any chords.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel like I have that stuff pretty under control.

[Andy Greenwald]

You 100% do. That said, we do have a meeting afterwards that has just recently popped up on your calendar and I do think that you should sit down for a while.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you mention about having two and a half beers?

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you have any other thoughts on the. The imports, the American imports of the show? We going to.

[Chris Ryan]

I think we can use that as a little bit of a time to talk about watching new people learn how to speak. Mickey and Conrad. So this is a very sharp, very, I think probably like weighty show when it comes to the dialogue. And it's like you're kind of almost saying things that feel like they could be written but they are the perfect things to say, you know, like they. I imagine like everybody needs like a little bit of like lead time to get used to the dialogue. And I thought Max Mihala was awesome at it, you know, and I thought. I thought everybody was actually quite good at it. You know, Cal Pen. I'll be curious to see where that character goes. Like if they keep him around or if that's kind of a. Hey, it's that guy. I know. But he was only in one episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, he was the Kyle Chandler in.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I didn't want to spoil.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't say which show.

[Chris Ryan]

How Friday Night Lights begins.

[Andy Greenwald]

Could have been home front.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Could be lanterns. I don't know. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And yeah, the newer characters. I was gonna say the newer characters. Yeah, I think the newer characters all sort of participate in some of the more, you know, oh my, oh my days. Moments of the show where it's like we got a dildo coming out. Kieran Shipka says some things I'm not gonna repeat while on Ecstasy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

About Bubblegum.

[Andy Greenwald]

She does.

[Chris Ryan]

And then at the end, I think.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was about bubblegum, but bubblegum played in too. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It was used as sort of the visual imagery. And then at the end, we have the return of Kit Harrington as Henry Muck, who is crushing up pills to snort off of a harpsichord that he's.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not supposed to touch.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I imagine that is just probably the way Henry Muck gets down.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's pretty cool.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So. Well, I can't wait for the next episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the best segue into talking about Landman would be A quote from Industry 401. I think this is. If you've done timestamps, this is okay. I don't think it spoils anything. But I do think that there was one line that really presaged my interaction with this episode, which was getting ready that woke shit no longer moves the needle in this new world.

[Chris Ryan]

So I am going to let you come hook.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no. I think you should defend yourself.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't have to defend anything. I've always been very, very clear that I do not agree with everything that. And I don't even know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like look for. Let me. Let me ref.

[Andy Greenwald]

You always said that you frequent Daily Caller because you like to open yourself up to a wide range of ideas.

[Chris Ryan]

Taylor Sheridan has a history of introducing characters to represent ideas in the culture wars that I think he is on the wrong side of probably.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that probably doing a lot of work. God.

[Chris Ryan]

So when the character of Pagan the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Talk about it let Kya know what she's producing when she's not winning Golden Globes.

[Chris Ryan]

Ainsley's non binary roommate at TCU has come down from Minnesota of all places. Great timing to be a sports medicine major at tcu.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. Like, we could look up if TCU has a heralded program, but yeah, I personally don't. Joel Anderson, an alumnus. An alumnus from TCU could weigh in. I. I would love to. To hear if Joel's got any thoughts on the horn frog.

[Andy Greenwald]

Say more about Pagan.

[Chris Ryan]

Pagan is. Is already all set up in the freshman dorms and they have a ferret and they have a lot of restrictions about what Ainsley can and can't do in terms of making noise, having animal.

[Andy Greenwald]

Products cook, using pronouns.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And so Ainsley then goes to.

[Andy Greenwald]

So Pagan uses a reusable water bottle, which is just appalling.

[Chris Ryan]

Don't you use a reusable water bottle?

[Andy Greenwald]

Physician, heal thyself. Go on.

[Chris Ryan]

So anyway, this is an opportunity for multiple characters in the show. Well, really just Angela and Ainsley to discuss people like Pagan and how they're. They're so unhappy about themselves that they take it out on other people by making them, you know, do gymnastics to figure out their pronouns and not play music in their. In their dorm rooms and stuff like that. I will be. I'm legitimately curious to see if Pagan is in the 10th episode and if there is any reason for this character's introduction. And frankly, way more time spent with. With Pagan and Ainsley's dorm roommate then Tommy's firing at the end of the episode and the collapse of his relationship with Candy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look, the Pagan interlude is appalling.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

The way the episode is constructed in which everything is given the same weight and nothing matters is disqualifying. This was a new level of dog shit in the history.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know why I wrote this. And it's my fault that you're watching it.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just. I didn't say you wrote it. I just think they probably send you drafts and you could be like, go a little further on this. It's a little subtle.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also think that Pagan gets all the headlines, but the things that occur around this character, such as Ainsley, who, as stated, is played by, I believe, a 39 year old woman.

[Chris Ryan]

She's not that old, but yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Playing a 17 year old.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who is, we are told in this episode, is not going to college, is going to stay in a dorm for one week of cheerleading camp. Why Pagan is there early?

[Chris Ryan]

Unclear during cheerleading camp. I supposed to. To soothe whatever other camps are having. Like she can, like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, no, the dorm is a safe space. So perhaps just want to just kind of like, you know, put down. Put down some roots. Roots, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Make the ferret comfortable.

[Andy Greenwald]

Angela, who is meant to be an adult human, behaves the way parents behave when they take their three year old to preschool for the first time. Yep. Complete and total emotional meltdown.

[Chris Ryan]

I think at least Tommy is like, what are you crying about? Yeah, because Ainsley's going to camp for two weeks or something.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Man up, woman. Basically, the only thing that makes Angela feel better initially is for saying goodbye to her daughter for a week, is calling her personal concierge at Neiman Marcus to shop it out. And then when Ainsley has a problem, swooping in like the fucking angel of.

[Chris Ryan]

Death and renting out like the Soho House of Fort Worth, basically For margarita parties.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, she had a great scene with my old classmate Miriam Silverman, who I'd like to remind people, one atonement and the reward that this culture gives stars of the theater is the right to debate pronoun.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, she was delightful in that scene, both with Ainsley and Angela.

[Andy Greenwald]

She had the right sensibility for that. I totally agree. But the other thing, and this, this will, this goes into my larger point, which is, despite how I've let off, not necessarily even a culture war point, because frankly, we may have lost that one. As a man who's been reading about 1930s Germany, you gotta know when to fold. Okay, it's possible.

[Chris Ryan]

We had a good run.

[Andy Greenwald]

We did have a good run. Having culture, remember the 90s. It was sick. Totally agree. The absolute inconsistent idiocy of a show in which Ainsley is written purely as a bikini wearing vessel for an angry, isolated, wealthy 55 year old man to pour whatever opinion he has that we is just frankly, gross and dumb. It's not the politics, it's that Ainsley is smart enough to say, oh, your name's Pagan, like the godless religion. Wait. And then Pagan is like, this is a ferret, a widely known animal. And Ainsley's like, what's that? And Pagan goes like a weasel. And Ainsley says, well, what's that? Make it make sense when Tommy gives her advice.

[Chris Ryan]

Stop pointing at me. I didn't write it.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're on the hook for this.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I'm not.

[Andy Greenwald]

This was my Sunday and Kevin Petullo's not walking through that.

[Chris Ryan]

I told you to watch this on Thursday. I knew what was going to happen on Sunday. I knew how it was going to feel.

[Andy Greenwald]

It makes for good radio. Tommy says, make his not bad advice to a grown woman who is cosplaying as a child. Make good choices.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And to him, good choices is don't have a fifth margarita when you're out on the town and on off campus. And Ainsley says, I don't drink margaritas, there's too much sugar.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

We fast forward to mom coming to save the day with a pool party. And the game being played by Ainsley is Margarita Marco Polo. So her abstinence policy lasted about as long as mine did in London. And it's just the inconsistency. So we talk about the impressive nature of the Taylor Sheridan industrial complex that like, wow. Like hate him or love him, this man generates a lot of television.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks for saying we.

[Andy Greenwald]

But there is the most charitable version of criticism for this show is that there's actually a reason why very, very, very few people attempt this, and almost no one successfully pulls this off. The act of solo writing an ongoing dramatic series. If you're Mike White and you're telling one story per season, one story every.

[Chris Ryan]

Couple of years, sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or Brad Inglesby with a task. These guys work alone and. And they do good work. The reason you don't do it for an ongoing series is because an ongoing series demands a multiplicity of points of view and perspective. And maybe voices being like. You might want to run that through the filter a couple more times to make it make sense or make it be funny or make it be entertaining or make it fucking have a point. Aaron Sorkin pulled off the solo practitioner act, and he had a debilitating crack addiction when he did it. Okay. I don't know what Taylor Sheridan's excuse is. You need human perspective. Not just to make the Pagan character work as anything other than as a strong non binary. We're not saying strong men anymore in this world. It's that for a character like Ariana, who exists on the show and is well played and, you know, is. In many ways, we've pointed to that relationship with Cooper as like. That's kind of the heart of the show.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought so.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And maybe what the show should have been.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

But having a second person in the room, maybe even a second female person in the room pronouns. Tbd could say there's probably more meat on the bone of this character than she could get engaged or she could get sexually assaulted and there's nothing else for her to do.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just lame. It's despicable and it's gross.

[Chris Ryan]

I agree.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

I agree.

[Andy Greenwald]

I won. This is like that show on the Internet where, like, Mehdi Hasan is, like, surrounded by 30 MAGA.

[Chris Ryan]

Nobody's arguing with you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but I just. Both of us.

[Chris Ryan]

This was a disappointment. I read an interview with Jacob Laughlin in the Hollywood Reporter. He's obviously very happy to be part of the show, so don't want to misconstrue what he was saying, but he was talking about how this season, the first season that they got all the scripts, they saw where their arcs were going, and they shot them in whatever order they shot them. But they understood the entirety of the story and that this season they would shoot things. Sometimes they would shoot episode six, and then they would shoot episode three. And it feels like that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I think he was saying, like, isn't it crazy that Taylor's just generating all this stuff but this feels like something that was written out of order and that there are scenes that are kind of, like, mildly trying to correct for certain things, like, earlier in this season, or even just ignored them, you know, like, even. I honestly, like, the. The more compelling thing is the idea of, like, we were talking about reinventions like, yeah, making Tommy poor or making Tommy into some kind of, like, giving him a new challenge rather than every week I just solve the biggest problem in Texas and then go home to my crazy wife. You know, now it could be, like, an interesting, like, obstacle. Now, I don't necessarily think you're going to be there for season three to find out, but this was, you know, the pagan stuff was reminiscent of things that have happened in Lioness, where Dave, Annabelle's character has spirited debates with his teenage daughter. It also reminded me of the Piper Perabo character from Yellowstone, who is a climate change activist.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, boy.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I think Taylor likes to get some characters in there and just throw some ideas around. You know, this season just feels, like a little bit. Bit, like, undercooked, like, or that, like, to your point, like, there was a deadline. There is, like, writing going on. There's filming going on. But even the performances don't feel geolocated to the point they are in the season.

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

C. Why. Why has Cami been rolling around on the ground screaming all year or getting into financial relationships with the cartel against the advice of Tommy? Like, there is a certain, like, kind of recklessness to the character arcs or an aimlessness that I think you're. You're also right to point out.

[Andy Greenwald]

What is this season about? What is the story of this season?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, you want me really to answer that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

My answer to that would be actually one that I am a little less interested in, which is the mortality. Like, mortality that.

[Andy Greenwald]

That.

[Chris Ryan]

The reason why they brought Sam Elliott in, the reason why they have been confronted with, like, multiple workplace deaths, and the reason why that guy's whole, like. Like, I made my 20 years. I get the watch thing is, like, the idea that this industry just, like, grinds you up and spits you out. That's, like, my.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's beautiful.

[Chris Ryan]

Most generous read of, like, what's been happening.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would like to reiterate, just in case, you know, parts are clipped or not clipped. I would just like to say that this entire exercise of this television show, this season has been despicable.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

That said, what is most frustrating. Wait, let me finish.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. All right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Every so often, a decent, no compelling idea wanders across the screen. Like when Fred Armisen would play former governor David Patterson of New York. That idea that you just talked about that was in that scene where boss gets his watch is compelling. The one good episode this season that I think was the funeral episode actually had some pathos to it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, it was quite good. The rest of it, it was also indicative of like. Like making all of those people be together anywhere else other than the kitchen at Tommy and Angela's house where seemingly nine people live now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And the fact that the great Sam Elliot, who looks great by the way, and does not look near death, Sam.

[Chris Ryan]

Elliot looks better than I do with his shirt off.

[Andy Greenwald]

Straight up the fact though. But he's being asked to play someone who is on death's door and playing the same, same seated note of resignation and regret for eight straight episodes until Cheyenne came along. Until a unlicensed physical therapist exotic dancer swims laps in front of him and instead of just letting that scene, which is entirely unnecessary to the plot of the season, just play out and be.

[Chris Ryan]

But there's no such thing as unnecessary to the plot of the season because nothing matters. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So maybe it is the perfect show for our time. But the fact that even within a just sort of nonsense spew of what life is or isn't there has to be just a little parenthetical for Taylor's sake, where the 20 year old dancer says to the 80 year old, I'd definitely have sex with you if the numbers just were a little bit different. And he's like, cool, I would have sex with you too. And everyone, they look at each other like, okay, we get it. Yeah, we get it. Yeah. Maybe that's the world that Taylor wants for us where people are honest about their sexual prospects.

[Chris Ryan]

If we're talking about being honest, I just want to say this. We have watched lots of TV over the last couple of years. There's been plenty that you would probably say is better than Landman that you give up on midway through. And somehow, some reason you have been coming back for more to the trough every week, drilling away to see if you strike one.

[Andy Greenwald]

I am not immune to the culture that we exist in. Okay, I'm aware of the first takeification of sports. I'm okay dabbling a little bit now that we're video stars, some of us more than others. So I was willing to engage in that kind of conversation. But if there's one thing that an 800 page book about the sweep of modern German history has taught me, it's that maybe it's time to Call it.

[Chris Ryan]

We've got one more. I need you for one more. We gotta find out how it ends.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, I mean, it's been renewed.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Here's what I would like. I would like the, you know, like the workplace drama I am most interested in right now is the executive suite at Peacock. Watching this season play out, thinking about the next five years of their life.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I would. Here's one version of that, which is. This is great. He's obviously not worried about these shows.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is smart. He's shorting his own shows and he's about to make a bigger split. Oh, he's saving all the good ideas.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just so we have it on the record, when you said that would be.

[Chris Ryan]

Amazing if he was like, I'm detonating this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So that, like, they don't even want it.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, Sicario, the series premieres on Peacock in 2028.

[Chris Ryan]

Don't tempt me with a good time.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. I'm just saying. I also want to be clear. I just want to have this on the record. Since we are on camera right now. When you say that you don't expect me back for the next season of Landman, do you already have a new co host in mind?

[Chris Ryan]

It's Sam Elliott, shirtless and Cheyenne.

[Andy Greenwald]

Guys, first of all, you both look great. Any updates in your relationship status?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Terrific. Yeah, terrific. Well, let's see Amy Poehler do that. Kaya. I mean, we really brought it home.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that your criticisms are all really valid.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think your criticisms are valid too. What were they? Was it more about roommate assignments? Like maybe just more thought or care should have been put into that.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks to Golden Globe winning producer Kai McMullen. Thanks to Kai Grady. Thanks to Andy Greenwald for always shooting from the hip. You know, can't help it. They can't say that you're bought and paid for.

[Andy Greenwald]

They will, but the evidence suggests otherwise. They will.

[Chris Ryan]

We'll be back on Thursday to talk a little bit of pit. Let me see. Actually, hold on a second.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is there anything other than the pit coming out?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it might be ponies o'. Clock. Oh, geez.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's hijacking ponies this week.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wednesday Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Chris Ryan]

That is next week. Next week.

[Andy Greenwald]

Tell the people some of us have already watched ponies. I'm good. I do the homework once.

[Chris Ryan]

Amazing performance by you to today. It's really a throwback.

[Andy Greenwald]

I got nothing left to lose.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks to Andy for everything he does for this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, so we're keeping the part where you open your computer and say, oh.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's fine. It's the end of the pod. Nobody cares. Right?

[Andy Greenwald]

This is when the real heads tune in.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you want to actually do five minutes after Dark right now about the Eagles or is she having you on the ringer Philly special?

[Andy Greenwald]

I already recorded. Did you? No, no. Do you want to talk about the Eagles?

[Chris Ryan]

Do you want to talk about the Eagles? What's your take that. For as much as I love them as an institution and for as much as I have historically enjoyed cheering for this iteration of the team, this was a miserable fucking experience for the last couple of months and I'm not happy that it's over and I'm not happy that the Eagles lost to the Niners, but I'm glad I do not have to watch 19 points a game against.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, this was a joyless slog.

[Chris Ryan]

I love the defense. I love men who are on the offense.

[Andy Greenwald]

They do.

[Chris Ryan]

But I did not enjoy how those men came together and worked together.

[Andy Greenwald]

Nor did I like the week to week gaslighting of we have to do a little bit of better job of communicating and do a little bit better in those situations and we're just ready to, you know, once we get on the same page.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I'm glad like the press conferences are over. I'm glad it's Howie season. Let that man cook. And yeah, I, I, I'm curious to see what happens with the offensive coordinator job.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who you got?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I, you know me, I'm a mad scientist. I love Mike McD.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would love Cliff and I'm just a vibes guy. So the fact that Vic Fangio just walked out of Miami rather than work for Mike McDaniel, the idea of them both being at the NovaCare complex is very fun.

[Chris Ryan]

Team of rivals, right? Works for Link.

[Andy Greenwald]

And who among us is more like Abraham Lincoln than Nicholas Sirianni? Just a man of great vision, of temperate spirit. It's really beautiful. I haven't watched now, now, Now. I have not watched as many Ken Burns documentaries as you. Yeah, I just, I am at peace. We won Super Bowl. That's awesome. If we had not won the super bowl last year and this was the.

[Chris Ryan]

Follow up, I have to tell you something. You're not at peace compared to what.

[Andy Greenwald]

I could have been been.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Do you feel that in, do you think that this was a classic post game podcast for me in terms of like, do you think my energy matched?

[Chris Ryan]

I, I do wonder what your Landman takes would have been if you had Watched Landman earlier in the week.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would have been like, ainsley makes some good points. She's just trying to have a good time. And Pagan's kind of a buzzkill. That's probably true. I. I just. I spend a lot more time, like when we text, you know, I think it's unsurprising. Like, our friend Zach is really. He's in the X's and O's. He's Crushing the All 22. He has a lot of points of view about under center play action, how it could be deployed. And I'm like, Fred Johnson and Jordan Davis seem like beautiful men. I enjoy when they play fun games on Instagram for the social media team. And I want them to be happy. Yeah. And the team let them down, especially Jordan Davis and Nakobe Dean.

[Chris Ryan]

We have to find out who's responsible for this. That's your vibe.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like Tim Robinson in the hot dog suit. Who's responsible for the way I feel? It's Kevin Petullo and Nicholas Honest Abe Sirianni. And I am. This has never happened in my modern sports fandom where I. I am actually so eager for next weekend. I actually was like, it seems so nice to have a psychologically uncomplicated weekend in my future. But it's frustrating because this whole thing was wide open. And if they had just been able to actually have a semi decent offense, I think we could.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, this is your opportunity to become a true Angelino. Get behind the Rams.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that where you're at? No. Who you got?

[Chris Ryan]

I think the Bears.

[Andy Greenwald]

You like. You like our new villain, Ben Johnson?

[Chris Ryan]

I just. That's. It's football, man. It's not the United Nations. Like, I don't understand. Why are people scandalized that he was like, fuck the Packers. Like, same. I don't have nothing against the Packers. I'm just like, it's football.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you feel like we have to be like that? Do we have to adopt a horse in the nfc?

[Chris Ryan]

No. I mean, I guess I do not like the Broncos. I. I guess I kind of like the Seahawks. And I. I want Mina to be happy.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's nfc. I feel like it is incumbent upon us now that we have actually had sustained success and we are not perpetual underdogs. I feel like Buffalo, they deserve it. I want Buffalo to win. I do. That's a town that you've seen.

[Chris Ryan]

You've always been a Kathy Hochul guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look what she did in nine days when she had a little pep in her step. Thanks to Gracie Mansion. New energy.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you mention Kathy Hochul? Because I mentioned former Governor David Patterson, and you wanted to prove your bonafides. As an upstate guy speaking.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you call it bonafides or bonafides?

[Andy Greenwald]

I say bonafides.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I say that, too.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you say niche or niche?

[Chris Ryan]

Niche.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, what do you say? I kind of read the room.

[Chris Ryan]

Niche or niche? Niche. All right, we can wrap it up. Okay. That's how we wrap it up if we're nothing if not niche.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great podcast. It's one of my favorites. My last one was. Was Memorial.