Jason Mantzoukas on ‘Shoresy’ Season 4 and ‘SAS: Rogue Heroes.’ Plus, Richard Price on Writing ‘Lazarus Man.’

Summary

The Watch – Podcast Summary

Episode: Jason Mantzoukas on ‘Shoresy’ Season 4 and ‘SAS: Rogue Heroes.’ Plus, Richard Price on Writing ‘Lazarus Man.’
Date: February 28, 2025
Hosts: Chris Ryan, Andy Greenwald (The Ringer)
Guests: Jason Mantzoukas, Richard Price

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Overview

Chris Ryan and Jason Mantzoukas gather for an in-depth, raucously affectionate exploration of “Shoresy” Season 4, the trajectory and achievement of “SAS: Rogue Heroes” Season 2, and the new Steven Knight show “A Thousand Blows.” In the second half, Chris interviews acclaimed novelist and screenwriter Richard Price about his new book “Lazarus Man” and the craft of storytelling across mediums. The tone is lively, passionate, and irreverently insightful, with Chris and Jason’s friendship anchoring the critical, heartfelt conversation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. ‘Shoresy’ Season 4 – TV Love Letter

Main Takeaways:

• Season 4 is described as a shift: if Seasons 1–3 were “Bad News Bears” underdog hockey, Season 4 is a soulful “life after hockey” exploration.
• Emphasis on character over plot: “The mistake we've made is thinking that story matters for shows that are funny… it is characters.” (Jason, 08:34)
• The show’s unique “accordion” structure allows deep character moments to interweave with running jokes and episodic bits.
• Joyful praise for the show’s repeated callbacks, dense joke structure, and emotional intelligence: Shoresy’s evolution from irredeemable villain to one of TV's most complex, heartfelt characters.

Memorable Moments & Quotes:

• On Shoresy’s Growth:
  “Has gone from an unrepentant absolute villain to maybe like a character that has the most heart and has shown the most growth and the most interesting arc."
  — Jason Mantzoukas [06:09]

• On Comedy Television:
  “The mistake we've made is thinking that story matters for shows that are funny, and story doesn't matter. It is characters.”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [08:34]

• On Mentorship:
  “This entire season is essentially about Shorzy and Goody and Hitch and Michaels and Dolo mentoring these young like pretty high level prospects who are about to go off to national clubs...”
  — Chris Ryan [09:20]

• Accordion Structure:
  “It does this accordion thing… where the entire season is essentially about Shorzy and core guys mentoring youth, but stretches it over six episodes, drawing out meaning and jokes.”
  — Chris Ryan [09:19–12:21]

• The Kangaroo Court Bit:
  “They make you wait… then the gyms tattle and then they do this thing called kangaroo court where the hockey team in the locker room becomes a courtroom…”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [15:59]

Notable Scenes:

• The “Blueberry Buddies” shirts and five-minute riff on team names [22:46]
• Kangaroo Court—locker room litigation and a running grievance gag that pays off [15:59]
• Heartfelt moments: “You need to find a place to put your love” and Shorzy’s vulnerability [21:17–22:46]

Timestamps

• [04:28] – Season 4 as the beginning of “Part 2” for Shoresy
• [09:19] – Show’s ‘accordion’ narrative and mentorship storyline
• [13:23, 15:59] – The “Gyms left on the dock” and Kangaroo Court set-piece
• [21:17] – Emotional center: Nat’s advice to Shorzy about love

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2. ‘SAS: Rogue Heroes’ Season 2 – TV With War and Heart

Key Points:

• The show balances bombastic, stylized action with deep character trauma and moral ambiguity.
• Discusses the real history behind SAS, and how the show occasionally chooses narrative drama over perfect historic accuracy.
• Discussion of two main characters (Swindell’s and O’Connell’s) being separated: how this allowed secondary characters like Reg to shine.
• The Italian campaign arc is front-and-center, reminiscent of great ensemble war dramas.

Quotes and Moments:

• “Boy, does it? And it haunts me. You know, like, that's what. I think this show's so incredible because a little bit like, sh. Yes. It's a. It's a War show… but they are doing incredible work showing… how humanity is being wrung out of these men.”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [36:16]

• “Tonkin. So that you have like multiple episodes of just a single man behind enemy lines who is just trying to get back to his unit.”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [43:57]

Notables:

• Reg’s emotional journey is a central focus.
• The Italian village defense sequence is compared to “Saving Private Ryan.”
• The bold use of pop music (AC/DC, The White Stripes) in battle scenes for style and energy.

Timestamps

• [31:13] – Steven Knight background and show’s origins
• [34:13] – Dynamic and story choices between real history vs. narrative
• [41:15–42:14] – Deep dive on Reg’s arc and character devastation
• [44:07] – Tonkin’s escape story
• [44:29] – Background on the historical context (Geneva Conventions, POW treatment)

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3. ‘A Thousand Blows’ – A Steven Knight Period Piece

Highlights:

• The show is praised as “rock and roll period piece,” with a kinetic, “Deadwood”-like energy.
• Standout performance from Erin Doherty as Mary Carr, the “Queen of the Elephants,” compared favorably to major TV antiheroes.
• The show’s language, vibrancy, and focus on street-level, multiethnic London is lauded.
• Tie-ins to current and past British crime dramas (“Warrior,” “Deadwood”) discussed.

Quotes and Moments:

• “Aaron DY is essentially the centerpiece… She’s acting and doing something interesting in every frame of this show.”
  — Chris Ryan [45:30]

• “This is a performance that needs to be seen because she is electric to watch… We’re watching her watch, which I love.”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [47:33]

• “But like, it's almost like I would wonder whether or not the people who are in scenes with her are like, whoa, you're kind of like… you are cooking right now.”
  — Chris Ryan [48:48]

Timestamps

• [44:29] – Steven Knight’s rock-and-roll period TV approach
• [45:30] – Erin Doherty performance analysis
• [50:11] – Leads’ immigrant storyline and bare-knuckle boxing plot

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4. The Streaming Landscape Frustration

Chris and Jason lament that great shows like “SAS: Rogue Heroes” are hard to find in the US due to boutique streaming rights.

• “The bummer about Rogue Heroes, the only bummer is that in order to watch it here, you have to subscribe to mgm, which is absolutely stupid.” — Jason Mantzoukas [56:28]

5. Anime Recommendation: Frieren – Beyond Journey’s End

• Jason recommends the anime “Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End” [59:23].
• “It's about people who are learning how to care about other people. They're learning how to be, how to have emotional connections… it is an incredible show.” — Jason Mantzoukas [60:53]

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Interview: Richard Price on Writing 'Lazarus Man'

Overview: Chris interviews Richard Price, acclaimed novelist (Clockers, Lush Life) and screenwriter (The Color of Money, The Wire), on his new novel “Lazarus Man”—set in Harlem after a catastrophic building collapse. They discuss the difference between writing for print and screen, the New York literary tradition, and the interplay between nostalgia and city life.

Highlights and Insights

On Shifting Mediums:

• “For novelists, the most valuable thing you can buy is time.” [66:55]
• “Screenwriting is about… architecture. You got two hours, you got four characters, race to the top of the pyramid.” [67:57]

On TV Writing/ The Wire:

• “Every episode was written in a telephone booth. That's about as much wingspan as you ever have.” [75:59]
• “I love. My favorite thing is to write episodic TV based on material that I didn't write… sometimes freedom is a noose. I like to know exactly where I'm going…” [76:10]

On New York as Setting:

• “New York is a collection of New York's… There are writers that gave me a… way to write that was comfortable for me… Lenny Bruce, Hubert Selby.” [82:13, 83:05]
• “Every generation has its own nostalgia, you know, and in turn will be a source of nostalgia for somebody. And it's always half bullshit…” [85:25]

On Process and Growth:

• “You can outline this thing to death. The minute that you start writing, everything changes… outlining does not. Is not writing.” [77:55]
• “Every book… as the. You grow as a writer, so you bring new perspectives, and you can bring a new depth that you perhaps hadn't had or new insights that life has given you…” [88:18]

Timestamps

• [64:42] – Richard Price introduction
• [66:06] – Early writing and transition from novels to screenplays
• [72:50] – TV writing, The Wire, creative restrictions
• [81:12–85:25] – New York's influence and the persistence of nostalgia
• [88:18] – Returning to similar themes, but with new perspective

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Additional Quotes and Notable Moments

• Chris on emotional resonance of Shorzy:
  “It is definitely very therapeutic. I actually got, like, a wonderful email from a listener named Andre Cormier… We can only hope that our country never take itself too seriously, except when we're figuring out where to put our love.” [25:27]

• Praise for character games:
  “They are very good at creating character games that for me, do not wear out their welcome… There isn't. You feel as though there's nobody being like, hey, we gotta dig into the gyms. We gotta get gyms backstory. No, we don't.” [14:57]

• On friendship and TV discovery:
  “Isn't it great that even though we're consuming and like. And I feel like nobody consumes more than you do… there are still shows that arrive that are fucking great.” [55:30]

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In Summary

The episode stands as a vibrant, smart celebration of sharp comedy and bruising drama on TV, and the continued joys and pains of great storytelling. Shoresy is elevated as a singular achievement in humanist, laugh-out-loud television, Rogue Heroes is admired as a bombastic war saga with real emotional depth, and A Thousand Blows is championed as must-watch, performance-driven period drama. The conversation is equal parts affectionate roast, deep nerd analysis, and heartfelt appreciation for stories that surprise, challenge, and move us.

Richard Price’s interview serves as a masterclass in craft and perspective, offering an insider’s reflections on writing across novels, film, and television, and on what it means to keep returning to stories, places, and selves with fresh eyes.

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For Reference: Key Timestamps

| Time | Topic | |--------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:28 | Shoresy Season 4 narrative shift | | 09:19 | Accordion narrative structure and mentorship | | 13:23 | “Gyms left at the dock” and Kangaroo Court | | 21:17 | Emotional depth: “Find a place to put your love” | | 31:13 | Steven Knight’s career and Rogue Heroes background | | 34:13 | Character separations/history vs. narrative in Rogue Heroes | | 41:15–42:14 | Reg's arc and the cost of war | | 44:07 | Tonkin’s behind-enemy-lines journey | | 45:30 | Erin Doherty’s commanding performance in A Thousand Blows | | 50:11 | Immigrant story and boxing plot in A Thousand Blows | | 59:23–61:28 | Anime rec: Frieren – Beyond Journey’s End | | 64:42 | Richard Price interview begins | | 66:06 | Early writing, novels to screenplays | | 72:50 | The Wire—TV writing constraints | | 81:10–85:25 | New York’s identity, nostalgia, literary influences | | 88:18 | Writing growth and fresh perspectives |

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Essential Viewing/Reading from this Episode:

• Shoresy (Hulu)
• SAS: Rogue Heroes (mgm+)
• A Thousand Blows (Hulu)
• Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End (Crunchyroll)
• Richard Price’s “Lazarus Man”

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, it's Bill Simmons letting you know that we are covering the White Lotus on the Prestige TV Podcast and the Ringer TV YouTube channel every Sunday night this season with Mali Rubin and Joanna Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I.

[Chris Rye]

Will be sort of diving deep into.

[Rob Mahoney]

Theories and listener questions.

[Chris Rye]

So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.

[Bill Simmons]

Subscribe to the prestigious podcast feed, subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel. And don't forget, you can also watch these podcasts on Spotify.

[Rob Mahoney]

White Lotus.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Disney. Ares is coming only in theaters October 10th. When sophisticated AI soldiers arrive from the digital world to invade ours, one soldier, Ares, goes against his programming and starts to think for himself. I love when this happens. He might be the only thing that could save humanity. See Tron Ares in IMAX in 3D only in theaters October 10th. Get tickets now.

[Chris Rye]

This episode is brought to you by the all new ESPN app, All of.

[Rob Mahoney]

ESPN all in one place.

[Chris Rye]

Your home for the most live sports and best championship moments.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's the ultimate fan experience. Step up your game and get even.

[Chris Rye]

More than before with no annual contract required.

[Richard Price]

Level up.

[Chris Rye]

For more on the ESPN app or at stream.espn.com sign up now. I need sports to have to clear the room.

[Rob Mahoney]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Rye]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Rye and I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio to reset the tone, it's Jason Mansukas. Let's go. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Come on, boys.

[Chris Rye]

Guess what? We're talking about Shorzy again. Yes, Jason is here to help me talk about Shorzy Season 4, which dropped this week on Hulu. We are also going to talk about the second season of Rogue Heroes, which has concluded its run on mgm.

[Rob Mahoney]

Incredible. I cried during both shows. Every show we're going to talk about, I have cried during.

[Chris Rye]

And then we're going to talk about A Thousand Blows on Hulu. At least the first episode. Another Stephen Knight production that is just blowing my mind. I love it so much. At the end of this episode, of the second half of this episode, I have another guest, Richard Rice.

[Rob Mahoney]

Get this fucking guy out of here.

[Chris Rye]

Author of crime writer extraordinaire, screenwriter behind A Color of Money and the screenwriter behind the Night of Lush Life. Lush Life, my favorite novel. Maybe one of my favorite novels. Richard Price is here to talk to me about his latest novel, Lazarus DP Lazarus man, which came out in November. And you should check out it's about an ensemble of characters dealing with a building collapse in Harlem in 2008. It's an amazing novel. You should definitely read it. And I was just honored at Richard Price on. He'll be on the second half. I guess I have to deal with you now.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm a furious that you've double booked. I. I'm assuming this is going to cut into my time.

[Chris Rye]

This is a big thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have a lot of other shows I want to talk about.

[Chris Rye]

We always do this with Bill where there was a run where he would have an incredibly famous person, but then front load the show with like some three basketball Raiders. So he's like, oh, Coming up next on the podcast, I got Rob Mahoney talking about whether or not the Hornets are gonna make the lottery. And then former Secretary of State James.

[Rob Mahoney]

Baker, you know, like, oh, no, that is absolutely true. I mean, to have Richard Price like. I kind of want to just leave. I kind of want to just fast forward to that interview.

[Chris Rye]

You're not allowed to go.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, fuck. I almost did last time we talked about Shorzy. They sent me a shirt. Did they send me a hockey jersey? And I forgot to bring it.

[Chris Rye]

I didn't understand.

[Rob Mahoney]

I meant to bring a hockey. I also talked about it a bunch of other places.

[Chris Rye]

Okay, so maybe I accumulated.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe you'll get it. Hey, Shorzy. Hey, guys. Hey, Shore. Hey, team Shorzy. Get the fuck it. Get it together and send CR some swag.

[Chris Rye]

I asked for Kiso. I asked. I'm asking for jerseys. I'll wear the shit on camera. I don't care.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've been trying to talk to Jared Kiso for literally what's up years.

[Chris Rye]

Is he Daniel D. Lewis ing at us?

[Rob Mahoney]

He is just in his own world up there and it is. I've talked to other people inside of like that community, the Canadian film and TV community, and they are like, he has figured it out in such a way that he's just like, no, I'm doing my thing.

[Chris Rye]

Summer in Sud Vegas.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh my God. I mean, let's all go to Sudbury. Let's all go to Sudbury.

[Chris Rye]

Let's get into this. Because season four is actually the beginning of part two for sure. Z. Now, Jason and I talked about the previous season, season three, which culminated with, you know, the. The Sudbury Bulldogs winning this national championship.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sudbury Blueberry Bulldogs.

[Chris Rye]

Sudbury Blueberry Bulldogs winning this national championship of senior whale shit hockey. One of the great sports stories ever told on screen, if you ask me. Heart. Heart rendering, but also hilarious. And then, you know, they were like this is the end of part one of Shoresy. Stay tuned for part two. With all that, like the anxiety and headaches and can we do this? Can we could do that? I don't know of any other show that's just so graceful. Like, yep, we're now we're a new show.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're just not only not only that, but this, that this show, after executing at such a high level of exactly what you said, like one of the best sports stories put to film. One of these incredible, like an incredible underdog story that become. That is just relentlessly hilarious for them to just exhibit and then follow through on true curiosity for the emotional well being of these hockey thugs, these senior. Like this is recreational hockey for middle aged men.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

To be clear, that's what we're talking about. Yes. They coach a younger group. Yes, they're, you know, there are younger people, but this is, this isn't like a pro team or something. Like this is like a hobby team that is taken so seriously but that they are really investigating, interrogating specifically with Shorzy, who if you've been following since Letter Kenny is. Has gone from an unrepentant absolute villain.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

To maybe like a character that has the most heart and has shown the most growth and the most interesting arc.

[Chris Rye]

He's in Field of Dreams or some shit now.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, as Mal and Joe would say, we love a character on an arc and Shorzy is unequivocally on one of the most interesting arcs on television.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. So the first three seasons are obviously about the kind of Bad News Bears development of this ragtag group of veteran hockey players who come together and with the help of some ringers and some gyms, win the national.

[Rob Mahoney]

Promote the network. Please don't promote the network.

[Chris Rye]

The ringer's like, no, no, don't promote.

[Rob Mahoney]

The network like that. More like say it like this. Yes, they've got some Grant Lands, but you know, they've got.

[Chris Rye]

And then season part two, season four is Life After Hockey and it is essentially summed up. And Jason and I look like you should take this as two thumbs up. Siskel and Ebert. Oh, if you haven't watched Jersey Season 4, just put a, put a pin in it. I don't want to see our retention rate fall off. We're going to talk about some other shows. Jump ahead to whatever part of this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pod you want or listen to us joyfully discussing about this show and then come back and listen to it again after you've watched it. This is a show that I'VE watched multiple times all of the seasons. It's hilarious. I cry constantly during this show because it's catching me by surprise. And not for nothing, it's still dead funny that they're. That they're executing on something like Weird Sudbury.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

That they're doing Kangaroo Court. That they're doing all of these things that would be at home in earlier seasons of the show or on Letterkenny episodes where a bit is enough for a whole episode. You know, like the episode of Letterkenny that is just about the adult spelling bee. Or the one where the entire town tries to describe and figure out what's the best potato chip. It's a real episode of tv. That's what the whole episode is. Just chips reviews.

[Chris Rye]

I was just watching I got served something on Instagram the other day. That was. Who plays Toby on the Office? Paul Lieberstein.

[Richard Price]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And he was talking about the difference between writing television and film and what kind of maybe networks are getting wrong about comedy now and how sitcoms are about characters. And it just really does not matter what happens on sitcoms. If people like the characters, you can give them the just the least amount of plot going on.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. The mistake we've made is thinking that story matters for shows that are funny, you know, and story doesn't matter. It is characters. It is these people and watching them recalibrate, you know, piece by piece. What's funny about watching a show like 30 Rock isn't just, oh, this is so funny. This is clever writing. Blah, blah, blah. But each season watching them decide, oh, wait a minute, let's.

[Chris Rye]

Let's pair.

[Rob Mahoney]

Jack and Kenneth up in this. And like finding if you build good characters, then you can just mix them around into different duos and trios and it's dynamite.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. And what this show does that I think I kind of put my finger on as I was watching the last episode, which I did not intend to burn through season four in about 12 hours. I did.

[Rob Mahoney]

I did as well.

[Chris Rye]

Is it does this accordion thing where this entire season is essentially about Shorzy and Goody and Hitch and Michaels and Dolo mentoring these young like pretty high level prospects who are about to go off to national clubs in different parts of Canada and it's there like summer before essentially their graduation summer or whatever.

[Rob Mahoney]

So whereas the previous seasons have been about the hockey season. Yeah. This is about games, the playoffs, the. The urgency of a championship. This season is off season. This is summer break. This is the boys are doing too much partying. They're tubing they're tubing too much.

[Chris Rye]

And tubing's incredible.

[Rob Mahoney]

But. Yes, but you're right. Like the introduction of these younger players and them having to figure out what it means to have an emotional. Kind of an emotional impact on the lives of these kids.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

And that Shorzy goes from someone who is truly lost, you know, without hockey. Shorzy has now he cannot play anymore. He's had too many concussions. It is. It's done for him. And the struggle of shi over this season to find his place both as a person and in a relationship with Laura or to the team or to the players. He is just kind of. He's nowhere throughout the season. And it's. And Kiso is incredible at doing this.

[Chris Rye]

He's awesome. And they just basically open up this season. And you're like, in any other show, you would imagine that getting this kid Jack to do karaoke for a girl he's really into or.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, that was the most surprising thing to me is the introduction of these kids weren't just an opportunity for Shorzy and the other adults to kind of roast them or whatever. The latter half of the season and the season, we should say, is six episodes long. Each episode's a half an hour, so you can get through it quickly. And it rewards that. It's a very compelling, singular storyline. And what's interesting is starting halfway through, it becomes a coming of age story.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like a beautiful coming of age story. These are the moments that I cried. It's fucking so moving when the adults decide to forego their own pleasures, their own getting into the weird Sudbury orgy sex party, but then foregoing that in order to go and help their young charge do a choreographed dance so he can get the girl. Like, it all felt like a, you know, John Hughesy rom comy coming of age story. But the people that are actually coming of age are not the kids. It is the adults like. And that is. What a trick that is.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. I mean, I could see a different show doing the kids in one episode where it's like, today the hockey players are mentors, and then the next episode they do this and it's. Instead they're like, no, you're going to get introduced to these guys. This is a show with a pretty caustic relationship to children.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would say, oh, aggressively George and.

[Chris Rye]

Everybody else, like Corey and all the kids that shores, he's always talking about their mothers.

[Richard Price]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And the mothers do come up a lot in this season, but it's basically like they stretch this relationship out over six Episodes. And you're right. I would recommend you watch as much of this in one sitting as you can, because what I don't think I got the first time through Shorzy was the amount of jokes that just get echoed through episodes and the amount of callbacks. And if you're watching it in this sort of marathon, you will, like, find it a lot more funny and resonant because.

[Rob Mahoney]

Because it functions the way that you and your friends function. You know, it's like Letterkenny. Shorzy is a hangout show. A lot of the action takes place when the guys are at the bar, sitting at home. It's, you know, in the locker room. It's a. It's a shaggy kind of hangout show. Letterkenny really does that, indulges in that. But just like Letterkenny sh is interested in everybody doing callbacks to jokes that they've already done with each other. And as we're watching now, like, there might be a callback three episodes later just because it works for the moment, and that's what these guys would do.

[Chris Rye]

There's an incredible example of this where if you're watching the show and obviously Jason and I are talking about details of season four, I hope you watch it. I hope you're enjoying this conversation. But there is a moment early on in this. I think it's in the first episode of the season where a bunch of the players are partying on a lake. They're tubing. Tubing's incredible. And they leave the gyms on a dock.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Because the boat's full with broads with tens. And you're like, oh, that's a funny visual gag of the gym standing there.

[Rob Mahoney]

So. And just for people, in case you are wondering, the. It's basically the team. A bunch of guys on the team have taken a bunch of hot girls out on the boat and left three of their teammates behind, all of whom are named Jim. Jim. Jim and Jim.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

And this is a. A slight that goes un the three.

[Chris Rye]

Indigenous guys who basically won them the championship and are the big fighters on the team. They're basically the security guys for the rest of the players.

[Rob Mahoney]

And they are absolutely hilarious. They function in the show because the show, for the most part, everybody is like crackling dialogue, fast talking, just tons of stuff. And the gyms are laconic and laid back, men of few words. They just really answer, usually with one word answers or brief answers.

[Chris Rye]

And it's always the same two level joke. It's like the first two gyms, they'll ask the Gyms a question. And the first two gyms are like, yes. And the second gym's like yes. And then the third gym says the most emotionally intelligent thing in the flattest way possible. And I could watch it happen 7,000 times an hour. Like, I don't care how. How many times they hit that.

[Rob Mahoney]

They are very good at creating character games that for me, do not wear out their welcome. Mostly because they're not clobbering it over and over and over. They also have a rich enough bench of characters that you're just not being hit with the same jokes. But for the gyms, when they do pop up to participate in this same game is so funny and so rewarding. And it's just. There isn't. You feel as though there's nobody being like, hey, we gotta dig into the gyms. We gotta get gyms backstory. No, we don't. We just. We. All we need to know is their feelings were hurt, that they were ditched and they tattled and then they told. And then many episodes later they get their retribution. And what then happens which is so funny is they make you wait for that. And then the gyms tattle and then they do this thing called kangaroo court where the hockey team in the locker room becomes a courtroom and Michaels, the goalie is the judge and. And a whole episode is just.

[Chris Rye]

I think it's like an episode and a half.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's an. Yes, it is. It's just them litigating what happened.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why the gyms did told on the rest of the team. And then the reveal that their feelings are hurt because they were ditched at the docks and everybody has to like that lands with everybody because they didn't even realize they'd done it.

[Chris Rye]

Right. And you know, and then the gyms wind up hooking up with these guys, ex girlfriends who they cheated on with the chicks.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

With the moms of the. Of the team that they're coaching now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. One of the through lines of Shoresy is that Sudbury is full of the most beautiful women who only want to fuck hockey players.

[Chris Rye]

Tens everywhere.

[Rob Mahoney]

Tens non stop tens everywhere. Just chasing the hockey players. And the hockey players are always talking about this. But then whenever they are out in the world, it is born out like they are always being approached by women. And it's very funny. But the fact that the dynamic between these episodes is a romantic triangle of, Of. Of just bad behavior on everybody's part and that it all gets litigated in the locker room. Fantastic.

[Chris Rye]

It's also. There are two Central relationships, which is basically SH and this woman Laura, who is a journal, like a sports journalist, who is essentially. Got Shorzy in a kind of probationary period to prove that he's serious about a relationship. I think because she has a son. I can't. Yeah, right.

[Rob Mahoney]

She has a kid. She is. While the rest of the guys are out chasing, like, young women. That's how it's. You know, most of the women who are in and out of the hockey player house are like 20 somethings, let's say. And then the guys are also. They're also fucking the moms of the hockey players they are coaching. Shorzy is going after Laura, who is a more, I think, a peer of Shorzy's, you know, and she has a son and she demands to be taken seriously.

[Chris Rye]

So she's like, you got to like, go figure yourself out this summer and figure out whether you're ready for what we are. And so there's that really sweet thing in the middle of the, like the. The relationship SH has with Laura and the relationship he has with Nat are these incredibly emotionally rewarding pairings while around them everybody is getting tug jobs and, you know, like having sex with people's moms. So you get the sugar and the spice.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, there's also like the. The show is also shot through. Through with very long music sequences. Music montages. Letterkenny did this expertly as well. And when the show is in season, it's also hockey, it's also the sports footage. But off season, it's instead them partying or them dancing. In Letterkenny, there are great ones that are like four minute choreographed brawls because Kiso's character in Letterkenny is the strongest guy in Letterkenny. So everybody's constantly trying to fight him. So the fight sequences are relentless and so funny, but so hardcore. And I love that they are punctuating a lot of the. This again, a 24 minute episode with a 4 minute, like, music montage.

[Chris Rye]

You ever see a Shoresy that's like a 33 minute runtime? It's because there's like a seven minute montage.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[Chris Rye]

Of. Of tubing, hockey practice and nightclub.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I love it. And I never am like, oh, this is going on too long. I'm like, no, I love this. And what's. And what's great about specifically the Shoresy Laura romance is it infects the. The Jack, the Younger Jack's journey to finding love with the woman he's interested in because Shorzy is constantly in pursuit of Laura, trying to Prove to her that he is up to this. That he is. And. And he's relentless about it. He's. When he's singing her karaoke. It's great. When at the. One of the times that I cried in this season was in that last episode when Jack is reading the letter to Laura as SH enters. And it's heartbreaking. It's beautiful. And it's a terrific arc that he's on that you are invested in. The fact that I'm invested in SH Finding love with the single mom in Sudbury, the fact that I care and am so absorbed in that for a show that is mostly about are they gonna win?

[Chris Rye]

Are they gonna win the championship? Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, the fact that they can also just kill it on a storyline that is so small stakes and emotional based. It's great.

[Chris Rye]

The. The whole thing with Nat and sh. So Nat was like basically this cornerstone figure for the first three seasons. She remains so this year. But like I think the way that they were able to slowly pull Shorzy back towards the Bulldogs via Nat, who Nat has some of the same problem shores he does, which is that she only really thinks about life through the prism of this hockey club and whether or not this hockey club is successful in winning and because they hate losing all this stuff. Zeke and me finally talk Matt Nat into like chilling out a little bit, which is a great subplot in and of itself. But Nat and Shorzy wind up having this amazing conversation midway through the season or towards the end of the season where she's just like, look, I love my mom. She was my best friend. When my mom passed away, I needed a place to put my love and I put it into the club. And she's like, you need to find.

[Rob Mahoney]

A place to put your love.

[Chris Rye]

And I was just like, come fuck on, man. Like you shouldn't be able to have the best comedy on TV and then also have a part like this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not only. And I just got like goosebumps again when you said it. When she says it, it's so perfect. And it's also in a conversation again. Nat is the owner operator of a local hockey team. Shorzy is a middle aged, like also ran now is out of the league and. But they both have so much heart, but are both so stoic and kind of unable to show anything. And so when Nat just offers that up, you need to find a place. And that she's talking about it in the context of finding a therapist. My shrink told me I needed to find a place to put my love and that Shorzy interrogates both. You have a therapist? Yeah, because. And he's basically. Because I think of you as the tallest building in town. I think of you as solid, you know, and that. That there is a pro mental health message in here. And that then Shorzy comes back later and there's another time that I cried. And he says, I want to put it here. I want to put my love. You sold me to. You told me to find a place to put my love. I want to put it here. As a coach of the boss, as in I'm going to coach the team. And boy, like that just lands. You know, they are setting up beautiful emotional beats that then they pay off in a very simple way. It's a transactional, you know, it's coming. But boy, it works like gangbusters. Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

A couple of my other favorite moments of the season. The guys being presented with the Blueberry Buddies shirts.

[Rob Mahoney]

Incredible.

[Chris Rye]

A five minute joke about all the other fruits that they could be and all the other cooler names. The Blueberry Buddies, which is the name of the mentorship program. And while three men are making like, we could be the Pomegranate Pals. We could be this, we could be that. Bulldog Bros. Hitch just keeps being like, I didn't know golf shirts came in long sleeves. And just keep saying it. And like, that's one of the things that's so great about this is you can rewatch this show and realize there is a second or third joke happening underneath three other jokes.

[Rob Mahoney]

The show is very joke dense. And that is very rewarding to rewatch, I will say, because you sometimes, because there are this season maybe a little bit less, but there are often even more characters. Like, because it's a hockey team, because there's youth hockey as a part of it. Because there's a lot of moving parts. So it's very easy to be like, oh, I didn't even. Like I didn't even know Dolo's game for a while because a lot of times he's subtitled and I've missed it or ba ba ba like, or Hitch or whatever. And you find like, oh, there are sub games going on here. There are little, like you were saying earlier, little callbacks or little. They're just have. It's loose and they're having fun. And a lot of it feels like if you miss it, that's fine. Like that's okay. Like the show doesn't need you to get every joke to succeed.

[Chris Rye]

Another amazing. Just one one off footnote is during Kangaroo Court and then it Kind of bleeds into something else. Shorzy is talking about Brian McKnight.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And Dolo breaks the French thing and just starts going, did you say Brian McKnight?

[Rob Mahoney]

So good.

[Chris Rye]

He's like, yeah, I'm not talking about genuine.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And he's like, you're hilarious, bro.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, it's so funny that those are the bit. Those are the bits. Because it does feel like conversational bits are happening between friends. And that is. Letterkenny had that too. That is a delight. And that you get different little. You get the hockey players and how they riff and kind of roast each other. There's a lot of ball busting. There's a lot of. What's interesting is it's a show that is. That appears to be telling a story about these hockey players and about this league and blah, blah, blah. But it's really about helping these hockey players understand that they have emotions. And now also how to take care of those emotions, how to exhibit them, how to like they are. It is. I mean, when I say it's one.

[Chris Rye]

Of the most like humanist, affirmative things you can watch, it is definitely very therapeutic. I actually got like a really wonderful email from a listener named Andre Cormier who wrote Very Long Thing. A lot of it is about like Canadian identity and popular culture and Kids in the hall and SCTV and a bunch of other stuff. But I'll just, I'll just read the second half here just because I think it touches on some of the stuff that we're talking about. SH is different from different. The show is so filled with heart that it breaks me to think about how goddamn reflected it is of a sort of Canadianness I thought was gone forever. We can only hope that our country never take itself too seriously, except when we're figuring out where to put our love. And the whole display is effortless. The show interlocks harmonious diversity without attention seeking. It manifests self deprecation without the burden of colonial trauma. It celebrates tired nation building mythologies and yet has all sorts of time for exposing the hypocrisy of their exclusivity. Yeah, I was like, dude, this is also a fucking funny show. But that's right.

[Rob Mahoney]

And yes. Oh, that's absolutely right. And that is present in every scene of every episode. But also it's dead dumb funny. It's also interested in absolute silliness. And boy, isn't that awesome. You know, what an incredible show that appears to be just a nonstop blast. But boy, like I said, I cried a bunch. It has so much Heart.

[Chris Rye]

I also love that weird Sudberry is built up the entire season and we don't see it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I love it. I love that we don't even go. We get like, we get the warm up party and that's all. That's. We're not weird enough. They know we're not weird enough to see weird Sudbury.

[Chris Rye]

I got to say though, one of my favorite bits this year and one of the most heartwarming ones is the Michaels stuff. So Michaels is the goaltender, he was the former coach who gets fired and then becomes the goaltender of the club. And then basically the running bit through three seasons, three and a half seasons of the show is that every time Michaels talks shores, he says, shut the fuck up, Michael.

[Rob Mahoney]

Everybody just dumps on Michaels.

[Chris Rye]

I just like, I wish I wouldn't work with you so I never had to hear you talk. So two very funny things happen. One is that of the mentees that they. They're. They're shepherding through this process, there is another kid goalkeeper who in turn, Michaels is like, Caleb, shut the fuck up. Every time he talks.

[Rob Mahoney]

Also they give Caleb such good stuff. Caleb himself is so, so funny. They do a thing, you mentioned it earlier, where they do a thing constantly, which is they will repeat dialogue with subtle slight changes. And the one where they're trying to get all the kids to say their bit.

[Chris Rye]

A masterpiece.

[Rob Mahoney]

Crying, laughing. I was laughing to a point where I had to stop and catch. I got scared that I wasn't able to breathe.

[Chris Rye]

I'd say, your age. It's not a fucking dating profile.

[Rob Mahoney]

And then Connor says his age. And then the next guy starts and.

[Chris Rye]

He says, but Caleb's always kidding. I'm Caleb. I got to work on my game. And myself. All the Michael stuff also Michael's being left out and sh. Feeling like I can't leave.

[Rob Mahoney]

This guy's ex girlfriend runs. Or is the connection for weird Sudbury.

[Chris Rye]

And then, yeah, all the. I think that the hitch karaoke training scene is among the best things I've ever seen in my life.

[Rob Mahoney]

Incredible. Incredible.

[Chris Rye]

Him talking through it, but then singing. And then the gang vocals on it are just.

[Rob Mahoney]

And then, and then them going with Jack to the place and Jack singing and the way there is just such a palpable sense of emotion and camaraderie without having to like say it on, you know, say it with dialogue.

[Chris Rye]

Do I have to get into like Canadian pop country now?

[Rob Mahoney]

By the way, they are also const. It's just all Canadian music throughout the whole show. Have not heard Sloan yet, but I'm sure they're in there.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. All right, before we get to Rogue Heroes and Thousand Blows, Any Other Shores.

[Rob Mahoney]

Y stuff, you know? You know, I wrote a lot of that stuff too. You know, find a place to put your love is like, what a beautiful idea. What a beautiful sentiment, you know? Yeah. I'm just looking through the. I wrote notes just because I write notes. I'm watching both Shorzy and Reacher right now. And somehow, boy, do I want a Shorzy Reacher crossover. Because they're.

[Chris Rye]

Reacher got good again, apparently. Right?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, Reacher, I'm so sorry. Has Reacher been bad?

[Chris Rye]

Well, I saw Richson talking about how he was like, we didn't like, season two fans down with, like, the fight choreography.

[Rob Mahoney]

It felt like the action in season two wasn't up to snuff.

[Chris Rye]

What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, it's. I don't remember a lot of the action set pieces, so maybe it's unmemorable, but I don't remember watching it being like, this is bad. And in fact, bits that I loved when he, like, kicks the car and the airbag goes off, and there's things like that in there that I think are, like, iconic to the show.

[Chris Rye]

I will. We'll have to do some kind of Reacher reach around at some point, but.

[Rob Mahoney]

Season three of Reacher is pretty great.

[Chris Rye]

We can move on to the Stephen Knight verse now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, let's do it.

[Chris Rye]

Okay. So Stephen Knight is a very prolific UK Taylor Sheridan, incredibly accomplished screenwriter. Basically, the UK Taylor Sheridan. He's probably best known for Peaky Blinders.

[Richard Price]

He.

[Chris Rye]

Has done a bunch of stuff with Tom Hardy. He has done so much film, feature film, screenwriting.

[Rob Mahoney]

Was he on Taboo Island?

[Chris Rye]

He wrote.

[Rob Mahoney]

He was Taboo.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. So Chips Hardy. I was gonna say Tom Hardy brought Taboo to him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, I thought Chips wrote it.

[Chris Rye]

No. An idea and a character base that you thought of. And he also did the Dickens adaptation that I liked that came out last year. Great Expectations, I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep. He did Maria this past year. He did this Town.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. Which has not come out in the States yet.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've been trying to find it and get it. Very hard to get. But he is wildly prolific.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Richard Price]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

All. All the seasons of Peaky Blinders and now is doing the Peaky Blinders movie currently. He. I think he has his own. Not unlike Taylor Sheridan, his own sound stages now in Birmingham, where he's from, in. In England. So he is basically creating this, like, industry around the stuff he does. Rogue Heroes, I guess we'll talk about first. Great Love.

[Richard Price]

Love.

[Chris Rye]

Fucking love. Season one of Rogue Heroes So much, so good. One of my 10 best shows of the year. So excited that coming back this season is also awesome.

[Rob Mahoney]

I agree completely. Full stop. It's. I'm having a blast.

[Chris Rye]

With the caveat that one of the great things about the first season is this dynamic between Jack OConnell, who plays a character named Patty, who is this hot headed, ultra violent, tortured Irish soldier in the British sas, and then Connor Swindell's, who is this almost con. Manish gentleman. Like ambitious, like clever.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, like, like almost like a mischief maker, trickster kind of character.

[Chris Rye]

And their kind of sens clash, but also their friendship is this enormous part of why season one is so good.

[Rob Mahoney]

And they are kind of the de facto leaders of this, this rogues gallery of absolutely chaotic soldiers.

[Chris Rye]

And like you may remember in the first season there were some other like, I mean, it caught a bunch of upcoming actors like Tom Glenn Carney, who's now on House of the Dragon, is incinerated on House of the Dragon. But like, you know, this just does a really good job of putting together an ensemble. First season is set during the North Africa campaign and it's got. Follows the formation of the British SAS and now the second season. One of my favorite World War II campaigns is the. The effort to retake Italy.

[Rob Mahoney]

What are your favorite World War II campaigns? Let's run them down.

[Chris Rye]

Let's do your theater guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Because people are like, what's your top? Who's your top five rapper? Who's your top five what? But I would love to know. Cr. What are your top.

[Chris Rye]

Okay, so I, I can actually answer this sincerely. I. This is only in terms of not like what they actually accomplish, but what I like to watch stuff and read stuff. Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

How you like it, what you enjoy?

[Chris Rye]

The French Resistance?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Number one draft pick easily. People working like odd jobs in Paris, but also at night having like secret radio stations. It's my shit. Alan first wrote like 10 books about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, you're a sucker for anything with a secret radio station. I mean, you've got your pump up.

[Chris Rye]

The volume tattoo, I think I really love a bit of desert foxing. I love the North Africa stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

I loved all that stuff in season one.

[Chris Rye]

And Italy is just like the cool thing about Italy. They shot the second season in Croatia, but it does a decent job standing in.

[Rob Mahoney]

I thought it looks great.

[Chris Rye]

And I love all the, like, we got to go up the boot. We got to get.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

You know, we were trying to outflank these other armies and it was basically this wedge that they put in Europe so that they could really do D Day, which is how season two sort of culminates with them going off to do D Day. Did you mind the separation of Swindells and o'? Connell?

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, we talked a little bit about this on text. My presumption is that they. These are real stories about real people in history. Right. This is the formation of the sas, which is the British Secret. Not Secret Service. The British.

[Chris Rye]

Like, SEAL team.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. Like Special Forces, like Commando Unit. They are a. They are a wetwork commando unit that are sent in ahead of the troops to just cause as much damage as possible. And so they're. They are beholden to elements that are the history of this thing. So my presumption is Swindell's character just was truly in prison during this.

[Chris Rye]

I saw that, and I also saw, like, Swindells didn't know he was going to be on the show until Steven Knight was like, I need you back for a couple of things.

[Richard Price]

Oh, interesting.

[Chris Rye]

So I think it was supposed to be captured.

[Rob Mahoney]

I didn't mind that he was absent from the troops because I just was so into what was going on. And I felt like we got such incredible stuff from. From Reg. Yeah, we got. So we. Without Swindells there, we were able to get deeper into a lot of the other players, which I was very into.

[Chris Rye]

It's a strange thing because, like, the show itself goes to great pains to be like, this is certainly not historical.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

You know, this is not historically accurate.

[Rob Mahoney]

Playing AC DC while. While they're. While they're blowing tanks up with bazookas.

[Chris Rye]

One guy takes on 40 Nazis while the White Stripes plays, which is just. I guess I had that dream on Tuesday. But still, it's basically. It's still a really great show. And it's also really fun to watch o' Connell be put in this position. And he does fucking.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's incredible.

[Chris Rye]

And he's like this traumatized soldier who is gay and lost a lover during the first season and so is just still haunted by that. A lot of the first part of this season is about them invading Italy and doing something. I. I won't spoil this one part in case you're listening and you going to give it a shot. They do something on their way into Italy that haunts this whole squad for the rest of the season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Boy, does it? And. And it haunts me. You know, like, that's what. I think. This show's so incredible because a little bit like, sh. Yes. It's a. It's a War show. Yes. It is about the active campaigns inside of World War II, but they are doing incredible work showing the basically how humanity is being wrung out of these men. How by the end of this season they have been cumulatively decimated by what they've seen, done and lost.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

And that is evident in all of their performances. And I think this show, again, like shorzy, is a very rewarding watch in close, you know, proximity. Again, it's only six episodes.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

This feels like if you are inside of it, this is fantastic character based storytelling that happens to also have big, huge set p war set pieces.

[Chris Rye]

You know, I gotta say, man, like, I watch a lot of action movies, I watch a lot of contemporary thrillers in action. This show, despite some pretty obvious CGI and not using like real fire and stuff like that, does such a great job. The sort of centerpiece of this season is the taking and then defense of a small town in Italy where the. The soldiers basically take back a town from the Nazis and then have to hold off a Nazi attack.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And that's like classic Seven Samurai kind of like setup where it's like the. The few versus the many. How can we help the. How can the townspeople help us? How can we set ourselves up? Is there a spy? Is there any high ground that we need to. And you're like all of it. I understand physically, like where everything is coming from in the show. And it's like for a TV show, they honestly, most TV shows don't bother.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh no. This has like cinematic. Not aspirations, but a cinematic quality.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is. This is beautifully shot, beautifully constructed, gorgeous choreography. I'm never confused.

[Richard Price]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm never like, wait, who are those guys? Who are these guys? Where are we now? Like how much time has passed? They are really good at walking you through this without it feeling like they're holding your hand through this.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. It's an interesting conversation to have about like obviously like this whole like there's. There's the. Jack o' Connell's sas and then Connor Swindell's character, his brother starts a second group that's more buttoned up and is a commando unit, but is like we're doing things a little bit more by.

[Rob Mahoney]

Commando unit with good soldiers, with like the best soldiers. So the sas, the original SAS was basically made up of lunatics. Lunatics. Like the castoffs, the people who were. It's like the Dirty Dozen was turned into in the first season, guys who.

[Chris Rye]

Like being stuck in the desert for.

[Rob Mahoney]

40 days and guys who are very comfortable with Killing very morally gray, if not worse. So what's interesting is you've got all these interesting kind of crazy characters, but then you introduce now a lethal but very buttoned up version of it under the guise of. What's his name?

[Chris Rye]

Oh, William, I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Bill.

[Chris Rye]

Yes. So it's Sterling's brother. Now you could just say, well, if I was just making this TV show and I had Connor Swindells, I would have him be the commander of this other unit.

[Richard Price]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

Like, you just to keep these two around. But, like, obviously there's some adherence to some historical fact there. So Connor Schwanzel's character is imprisoned the entire season.

[Rob Mahoney]

The entire season.

[Chris Rye]

He makes multiple attempts at escape. It's pretty grueling. Like, he gives him, you know, he has this concussion, so he's having visions. But essentially it's just a pow. And not even like a cool, great escape Pow.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, it's not. He is. His arc is pretty static.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. I'm sitting in a room.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. Which I, again, I didn't mind because they. I think in a good way, they only go back to it every once in a while. You're not like, it's not given equal airtime to the rest of the show, which is at a breakneck pace for the most part. You know, there's a couple of episodes where they stop down for a rest or a meal or a this or that, but for the most part they are just like. Cause they give you dates. Yeah, they give you. They're constantly giving you dates. And the majority of season two takes place in like a couple of weeks.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. It's basically like their run through Italy and then the last episode, they get to go back to Italy and they're losing leave. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Dozens of members. You know, they also give you. Because it's historical, they're giving you information on screen there. There. There'll be title cards every once in a while that are like. Between October 15 and October 17, 21 members of the SAS died defending the town or whatever. You know, they. They give you information or whatever.

[Chris Rye]

The town.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Which is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Which I found very helpful because it helps you understand the stakes for these guys, you know, terminally is the town.

[Chris Rye]

Sorry. Yeah. And then I just thought I'd shout out a couple of performances outside of o', Connell, which is mostly down to Theo Barklan Biggs, who plays Reg.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, this. This is an incredible performance.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. This character is basically a behemoth. Like you'd think, oh, this is like the Jack Reacher of SAS and his whole Job is like kicking ass and taking names. And he has probably the most emotionally identifiable like arc in the season where he experiences this really dark thing in the beginning of the season and then is just basically pushed beyond, you know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Any human experience, shattered as a human being. He is the character that is kind of stands in for what they're all going through because all of them are going through. There are so many events that happen to them in such a brief period of time that are not just traumatic but devastating. That and everybody's feeling it to a certain degree. And you get peaks of it through other people. But Reg, you is really the stand in for the person who starts in one place in the beginning of the season. And by the end you are just looking at a hollowed out, you know, a man who is just wanting to die.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean.

[Chris Rye]

The Italian Village defense and fight is not on the same level, obviously, but it's very reminiscent of the sort of final battles in Saving Private Ryan.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And I really liked the interactions between Reg and Evements or the Sophia Patela character who's a French spy kind of working in conjunction with SAS, but is operating as a journalist. Any other rogue heroes. I mean, it ends very much like awaiting season three every.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. Which I'm thrilled and I have they announced. Do you know, I read something today.

[Chris Rye]

That was pretty convincing that Steven Knight can basically go to the beach. Like I will be doing.

[Rob Mahoney]

I hope so, because it's. I can't imagine it's a cheap show. These are expensive actors. The scope and scale of this show is large. This is an expensive show. So I hope they get to keep doing it because all I want is the next chapter. I want to do this. I want. Exactly. I want to see how this happens next. What was I going to say? We covered most of the stuff because really I really wanted to talk about just Reg. That Reg arc I think is unbelievable. But they also. Much like we were talking about before. One of the things that I appreciate sometimes I feel like the adherence to history may be knocking us off. What could be better storytelling, you know, or more easier story? Like you pitch like, oh, what if, you know, our guy instead of being in prison was head of SAS2? You know, wouldn't that be better storytelling? It probably would be, but we're not there and. But what that does give us. Whereas Swindell's is in prison and it's kind of fine. The guy who is captured and then escapes.

[Chris Rye]

Tonkin.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, Tonkin. So that you have like multiple episodes of just a single man behind enemy lines who is just trying to get back to his unit.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

And that we keep cutting back to that journey, which is much slower, much quieter, not as chaotic, but nonetheless super tense.

[Chris Rye]

And interesting too, because it's about like Hitler doing away with the Geneva Conventions of like, if somebody surrenders themselves, you're supposed to put them in a prisoner of war camp and they're like, if he's a commando, he can be.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. They're basically saying anybody from SAS can be executed, you know, at any time.

[Chris Rye]

All right, so let's talk a little bit about the other Steven Knight show that's on right now. Another rock and roll period piece. I would describe his. When Steven Knight is cooking, he makes rock and roll period pieces. 100% stuff from across history that he. That infuses with this kind of like back room of a pub sensibility, with.

[Rob Mahoney]

The music blaring and it's always music we know, it's always popular music of this era, or not this era. It's mostly of, I think, his era. So it's the Clash, it's the, you know, it's stuff that is. He feels connected to.

[Chris Rye]

I was blown away by a thousand blows so far. So I've only watched the first one and a little bit into the second one because I needed to see how the boxing match, in the end, the first one goes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Holy.

[Chris Rye]

This show is hitting all the TV benchmarks you want where you are introduced and. Or see a bunch of people that maybe you're vaguely familiar with, but they're now, like in starring roles. So number one, I have to talk about Aaron Doherty.

[Rob Mahoney]

Unreal.

[Chris Rye]

She's so good in the Crown. But in this smaller part of Princess Anne, Aaron DY is essentially the centerpiece of this show, or one of the. One of the central characters of the show. And she plays a woman named Mary Carr, who is the Queen of the Elephants. The Elephants are a female gang of pickpockets, con women, petty thieves in East London.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. This is a show that takes place in like the street level crime of.

[Richard Price]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Of London. So it is. It's pickpockets, it's bare knuckle boxers, it's bar owners, it's. That is the scene.

[Chris Rye]

I was gonna ask you if you've ever experienced this, like, acting in a scene with somebody, but I've noticed when I was watching her, the blocking or whatever of scenes are nothing out of the ordinary. Extraordinary. A lot of this show, like any other show, is two people talking in a room. She does not take a single Second off, no plays off for her.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, I like.

[Chris Rye]

She's acting and doing something interesting in every frame of this show.

[Rob Mahoney]

So I did not watch the Crown. Okay. Okay. So for all intents and purposes, I looked it up, and I have seen her in a few things, but she's in smaller roles and stuff that I've seen, and I didn't clock it as much. So for me, this is, like, her arrival for me, full stop. And I am, like, captivated by this. This is a performance that needs to be seen because she is electric to watch. She is so compelling. It's like. I'm rewatching Wolf hall right now because wolf Hall Season 2 comes out next month. And what you're watching on Wolf hall quite often is Rylance not talking, not having the focus, not being. And she's doing something similar in that she's not always saying the thing. But we're watching her clock everything. We're watching her put it all together. We're cutting to her a lot. Not because she has something to say, but to watch her make sense of the surroundings. You're watching her watch, which I love.

[Chris Rye]

So she has, especially in the episodes that I've watched, like, moments that are, like, not uncommon in Steven Knight shows. Not uncommon any television show. You better do this or I'll fudgeing kill you. Or, like, don't you mess with me, because this is who I am. The dialogue is really good. In fact, I would. I wouldn't put it up on the same level as. But it is giving me Deadwood vibes. Like, the density of the dialogue. And it's.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I keep. Because I. The. The bar that is the set, the setting where the. The boxing matches take place is so reminiscent of Al Swearingen's place. And there's. There's a lot of dead.

[Chris Rye]

There's even like. Like, the Hezekiah's character, who we'll talk about is, like, very, like, Seth Bullock arriving.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely. And no, this is. I. I also have. This is very Deadwood.

[Chris Rye]

But Doherty's doing, like, all this facial stuff, or it won't even be, like, big acting. It'll be like, I'm looking at this guy so you can feel through my eyes, I want to kill this guy. And it's much scarier or more involving than just even the dialogue. I. But, like, it's almost like I would wonder whether or not the people who are in scenes with her are like, whoa, you're kind of like, oh, yeah, you are cooking right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, she's. I mean, in A show of phenomenal performances. She is just. I mean, this show has Stephen Graham in it.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And she is just demolishing all over the place. And what's super interesting is she's. Because everybody is inside of this criminal underworld. Nothing is to be trusted or believed. We see everything. A lot of the action we see through the eyes of two Jamaican immigrants who. So it's an immigrant story as well, who have just arrived in London and are trying to get the lay of the land. And so we're also watching them. We're watching them watch Mary and the elephants do all of their pickpocketing and all of their. Their seat. Like, I love that scene in the beginning where one of them is giving birth on the street and while the rest of them are infiltrating the crowd and just picking their pockets while.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

This fake birth is happening. Just scams. Just like really street level scams. I love, I love that it's not big giant heists or something. It is just like scraping by street level stuff.

[Chris Rye]

And it's so awesome. The writing puts characters in these incredibly dramatic but very real situations. These two brothers or. Malachi Kirby plays a guy named Hezekiah Moscow. And then he has. Is it his cousin? Who's with him? Is Alec?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think so, yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Francis Lovehall plays Alec Monroe. I think that's his cousin. And they've come over from Jamaica to London, basically because Moscow has had a correspondence with a zoological, a zoo animal trainer guy. And he's like, I want to. This guy has a dream of becoming a lion tamer. Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

He wants to. He's going to come and learn how to be a lion.

[Chris Rye]

And the head of the zoo has been like, when you get here, I'll give you a job. It turns out that that job is incredibly racist and demeaning. But these two guys arrive in London and have five shillings.

[Richard Price]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And the show itself, the plot is basically hinges on what would you do if you only had two shillings left?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And what would you do if you only had one shilling left?

[Rob Mahoney]

What are your top five shillings.

[Chris Rye]

Kurt? Shilling, two bob, three pence. I actually don't even know what a shilling would translate to now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Couldn't tell you.

[Chris Rye]

But they run out of shillings pretty fast and then they have to basically earn money back with their fists. So there's a whole bare knuckle boxing plot. Steven Graham is sort of the center of that. He plays a character named Sugar Goodson.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who, like, just terrifying.

[Chris Rye]

One part Jake LaMotta and one part Paul Sorvino from Goodfellas and is essentially the swear engine of that area. But I want to shout out James Nelson Joyce.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who's the other guy?

[Chris Rye]

Treacle.

[Rob Mahoney]

Incredible.

[Chris Rye]

Awesome.

[Rob Mahoney]

He is awesome. Incredible. Is he a fighter? His fight. I don't know. His fighting stuff was so.

[Chris Rye]

No, he was in Shamelessness. The British Shameless. He's been in. He's a.

[Rob Mahoney]

He was such a good fighter just in the fights that I was like, oh, is this his background? Did you watch this? So all of this stuff, the bare knuckle boxing stuff, is fantastic and similar to Deadwood. It exists in a period where they're like, hey, Mary says to Sugar, she gives him boxing gloves. And she's like, hey, use these. It's like, this is a London that is still a frontier feeling, a lawless frontier. But change is coming. Order is coming. Boxing is being legitimized. It's being put up in hotels where you can make money. It's not in the back of bars, et cetera, et cetera. So this is again, like Deadwood, A story about a place that is about to be, like, civilized, but is now lawless.

[Chris Rye]

And the production design is so good on this show, but at the same time, it's an example of how great writing can do the work of, say, $10 million to build a set. So in the beginning of the first episode, Alec and Hezekiah are looking for a hotel. They're obviously having a hard time finding one because they're Jamaican and it's a racist city. But a cop tells them if you.

[Richard Price]

We.

[Chris Rye]

You walk east until basically you can't see anymore.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And you can't breathe anymore because it's so polluted and so hazy. And it's basically like the far it. He's like, you might find a hotel you can afford. And when they get out there, they find another amazing character, Mr. Lau, who runs this hotel and is gonna be involved, obviously, with the larger plots of the show. And it's just like, I feel like every time you walk into a room in the show, you meet somebody interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's awesome. It's fantastic. I cannot recommend this show enough. The bare knuckle boxing element of it and a lot of the other kind of frontiery, kind of chaotic elements of it. Lawlessness remind me a lot of Jonathan Tropper's fantastic show, Warrior.

[Chris Rye]

Warrior. Warrior.

[Rob Mahoney]

Cause Warrior has the fights.

[Chris Rye]

And that's in San Francisco, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

It is.

[Chris Rye]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I love that show. I love Warrior. I think it's fantastic. And there is a similar element to it which is there is a whole thing going on down here that exists outside of law and that the encroachment of government and law and order and all this stuff is like this threat that threatens everything, all the way of life inside of this area of San Francisco, or in this case, this area of London. Incredible. I love this show so much. All I want to do is I want, like, this to stop and for Rogue heroes to come back and then that to stop and this to come back. Like, I just want to be watching these shows.

[Chris Rye]

Isn't this the best, though, when you get. I in no way was like, in a kind of TV slump, but in some ways I almost like Severance and White Lotus are like known qualities.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Chris Rye]

And there's something about having all this new and also like, what a surprise.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, what a surprise. Because I asked you if you were watching A Thousand Blows, you said you hadn't started it. And then I woke up to a text this morning, all caps.

[Chris Rye]

You love it. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And that's. That is.

[Chris Rye]

Life loves it. It's just like. And she was like, we can watch like one a night. I don't ever do it.

[Rob Mahoney]

And it's, It's. It is. Isn't it great that even though we're consuming and like. And I feel like nobody consumes more than you do because you're watching basically everything I'm watching.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Plus more. Plus sports. Plus sports, which I'm never watching.

[Chris Rye]

Well, I don't have to watch that much sports because the Sixers suck this year, so. It's okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm so sorry.

[Chris Rye]

It's okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm sorry. That's football.

[Chris Rye]

No, that's basketball. The Eagles won the super bowl, so I'm fine.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, that's right.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. But like, it is. It's really cool. The Aaron Doherty part. Malachi Kirby, who I thought was incredible in small acts, the Steve Queen stuff. But to see people kind of like blossom right in front of you is really cool discovery.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's so fun that even though we're watching all this stuff, there are still shows that arrive that are fucking great. And I didn't know there was a new Steven Knight show. I didn't know this show was coming until it was on Hulu and I was like, oh, fuck, okay, I'll watch this. And then immediately obsessed.

[Chris Rye]

Interesting that the three shows we're talking about are all six episodes.

[Rob Mahoney]

That is interesting. Well, they are. I will say one of the things we have liked about all of them is that they are forward moving, singular storylines for the Most part. These are long narratives. These are. It's a. It's a movie, it's a miniseries. These are not formulaic tv. These are not episodic tv. These are narrative, heavily serialized stories that we're digging into. I think if they went much longer, it might get a little wonky. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I'm just loving this.

[Chris Rye]

10,000 Blows has already been renewed.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank God.

[Chris Rye]

I know Shorzy is definitely coming back for season five, obviously. And then I am just fingers crossed we get to see Rogue Heroes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, everybody. The bummer about Rogue Heroes, the only bummer is that in order to watch it here, you have to subscribe to mgm, which is absolutely stupid. This is where streaming is fucking us. It's making it such that shows that deserve an enormous audience literally can't find them because they do not have the subscribers. Because who on earth would subscribe to MGM Plus?

[Chris Rye]

I just don't understand why we're in 2025 and there's not just like a BBC America that is like, here's what's on BBC England. If you want us to wait for three months or whatever it is, that's fine.

[Rob Mahoney]

We can window all this stuff.

[Chris Rye]

But just put it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Put it on, but put it up. Why is it so hard for me to get this town? Yeah, that show has been out for over a year anyway. But. So that's the. That's the hard thing is, like, some of these shows just become. Become difficult to find and that makes people not pursue them.

[Richard Price]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Versus. If you could just opt into it. If I. If you could turn this off right now.

[Chris Rye]

This one was available on prime for a while. I don't. I mean, it was. It was really. It was just Prime.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Chris Rye]

And now it's switched over to this MGM Plus. Like, you have to pay 7.

[Rob Mahoney]

You have to. But you can't. What you can do is sign up for a free week, watch it and cancel it. It's only six episodes.

[Chris Rye]

Or maybe there's a ton of magic inside of the MGM plus library.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the bummer. Because there are. I'm sure there are good things, but I mean, like, those are the shows that, to me, get lost in the shuffle. Sas. Rogue Heroes is one. The gold was one you guys were big champions of.

[Chris Rye]

It was. I don't think it's actually on Paramount plus anymore.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, I think they took it off.

[Richard Price]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Perpetual Grace Unlimited. Steve Conrad. It was on epix. It was on epix's streaming service. So. Just truly bizarre to try and figure out And a phenomenal show.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Anyway, I'm gonna. I know we're wrapping up. I'm gonna give you a show to watch because it took me a long time to get you into Shoresy, but you're here. Welcome. The water is warm. Here we go. I know you will. Now, I wouldn't have said this in the past, but you will now watch animated things.

[Chris Rye]

Is this gonna be the Scavengers Reign new show?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, it might be. It's not Scavengers Reign in the same sense of like crazy.

[Chris Rye]

But didn't they do a new show?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, no. You know who did a new show? Oh, you might be talking about common side effects.

[Chris Rye]

Okay. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Which is incredible.

[Chris Rye]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

That show absolutely watched. That's on Adult Swim, I think. Boy. Yeah. I'm almost positive.

[Chris Rye]

I'll look it up while you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Which means it's Max. Maybe. I think dead. I think Adult Swim dead ends at max. But regardless, there is a show dead ends at max.

[Chris Rye]

What a world. It is on Max.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. Rip. There is a show that I have now watched multiple times all the way through within the year it's been available. It is an animated show called Frieren Beyond Journey's End.

[Chris Rye]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

And it's on Crunchyroll. It's an anime. It's an anime show. I watch anime now.

[Chris Rye]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm a 52 year old childless man with a Crunchyroll subscription. Watch out. It is incredible. It is absolutely staggering.

[Chris Rye]

Say the name again.

[Rob Mahoney]

Freeren. F R E. F R I E R E N. How. Hold on. I'm not trying to picture it. Frieren.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, that's. You have it.

[Richard Price]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

F R I E R E N.

[Rob Mahoney]

And then Beyond Journey's End. It's based on a popular manga series. And it's hard to explain what's truly incredible about it because it's one of those shows that what it looks like isn't exactly what it is.

[Chris Rye]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

It looks like a show that's about like a party of heroes who are fighting. You know, a mage, a warrior, a healer, a priest. The mage has an apprentice and they are. They see a dragon and they have to fight a dragon or whatever. It's all of these, the tropes and the archetypes of a fantasy show. But what it's really about is Frieren is the mage character, and she's an elf and she is essentially immortal. And what she is dealing with is the consequences of having become she. We're watching her and a hero's party on one journey. But we're flashing back to 80 years in the past when she was on a she was part of a different hero's party that was successful in fighting someone called the Demon King.

[Chris Rye]

Gotcha.

[Rob Mahoney]

And we never see that, but what we do see is Frieren wrestling with her. Immortality means she has trouble connecting to people and she starts to lose people that are important to her. Yeah. No, it really, it's very similar to Chorzi because it's about people who are learning how to care about other people. They're learning how to be, how to have emotional connections, how to exhibit emotional connections. It is an incredible show.

[Chris Rye]

You're in my cool book. If you recommend me, a bunch of people like watching the phone book, I'll watch it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's, it's exceptional storytelling and it's beautifully done.

[Chris Rye]

Free Rin all right, we have a recommendation from Jason. You are such a prince for coming.

[Rob Mahoney]

In and talking to me about nothing made me happier than your text saying where are we?

[Chris Rye]

I like the idea that Richard Price is just like quietly waiting in the lobby waiting for you to finish. But he's not. We already recorded that. I hope people stick around for my interview with Richard Price.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, please do.

[Chris Rye]

It's a real treat for me. And if you are looking for Richard Price novel to read, you can start with Lazarus man, which is his most recent book, or Lush Life, which is my favorite one. Incredible Clockers is also awesome. Jason, thank you so much for coming in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank you, Chris.

[Chris Rye]

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[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26, a favorite of my sons and me. All right, quick break. NBA 2K26 stacked this year gameplay, new motion engine, smoother catch and shoot. The rhythm shooting is dialed in. My team added the W so now you can get Caitlin Clark pulling up from deep. Larry Bird talking trash mid game, Jokic casually dropping triple doubles. It's absurd in the best way. My career has a whole new storyline. The city's tighter and you're on the court way faster. I've been playing video basketball games. I think the first one was early 80s. I'm stunned. Like when I go and my son's playing with his friends and I go in and I barge my wound and I start playing with them. I'm just amazed by how good, how detailed all the games are, how they really look like NBA players. 2K26 is finally here and yeah, it is absolutely loaded. If you care about basketball even a little, you're checking it out today. Ball over everything.

[Richard Price]

Your teen adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained, one who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen the new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you this episode is.

[Bill Simmons]

Brought to you by Bleacher Report. Football is back, and downloading the Bleacher Report app puts you in the middle of the action. Make Bleacher Report your go to this season for the fastest breaking news alerts covering NFL and college football. And don't miss a moment with highlights, scores and live reactions in the app. Get expert analysis on your favorite teams and the news that you want this season. Download the Bleacher Report app today.

[Chris Rye]

My guest today is one of my favorite writers, full stop. Richard Price is The author of 10 novels, including the Breaks, Clockers, Freedomland, and one of my favorite books ever, Lush Life. He is also an accomplished screenwriter and his credits include the Color of Money and Sea of Love on the big screen and the Wire, the Night of and the Deuce on tv. His latest novel, Lazarus man, was released last November and it's about a building collapse in Harlem in 2008 and it is fantastic and I'm honored to have him on the watch. Richard Price, thank you so much for joining us on the Watch. I'm such a massive fan of your work. I had asked, you know, if you might be out in Los Angeles anytime soon so that we could do this interview in person instead. I wasn't sure whether or not you made it out here very often.

[Richard Price]

Not not Hardly ever, unless it's related to something I'm doing, like a TV show or, you know, getting Nobel Prize or something. I used to go out a lot, but.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, you used to come out here. So when you were doing that sort of break between the breaks and Clockers and you were doing a lot of screenwriting out here, were you?

[Richard Price]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And beyond that, you know, because whatever movies I was doing or whatever TV shows I was doing, whether they happened or not, you know, but you know, the Internet just eliminated the need for all that.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, well, it's the sunshine. The Internet can't quite do the sunshine, but it's, it's definitely the traffic is better on the Internet. I wanted to ask you a little bit about that early part of your career or the earlier part of your career where, you know, you write four novels. I think that you've talked about them being very self referential and essentially autobiographical. And then you take this break for Hollywood and come back to Clockers years later, eight years later, I believe it was. And yeah, yeah, pretty much. But since then, you know, it seems like you've been able. The transmission is different where you're able to switch back and forth between doing some screenwriting work, going back to a novel, some screenwriting work. Was there something that. Is that just age? Is that just familiarity and, and reps or what was it that changed that made you feel like you could go back and forth a little bit easier?

[Richard Price]

Well, I just could because the reason why I could do novels is because I was making money from screenplays, you know, and you know, for novelists, the most valuable thing you can buy is time. You know, if you, you know, if you got a. Buy eggs, you're in trouble if you're just writing novels. But I had a facility for both. You know, when they asked me to start writing screenplays, they did it because they had read my earlier books and they liked my dialogue. But dialogue, I've often said this has nothing to do with how good a screenwriter you are. I mean, the actors will give you good dialogue. I mean, screenwriting is about, you got two hours, you got four characters, race to the top of the pyramid. You know, it's architecture. And it also helps if somebody, some guerrilla is involved.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Richard Price]

You know, then you could write Alphabet soup. It doesn't make a difference, you know, not really. But.

[Chris Rye]

But Paul Newman helps, right?

[Richard Price]

Yeah, yeah, but Martin Scorsese helped too. Yeah, more, you know, more so. Or just differently if you. The most elaborate calling card you can have is, is a. Well Received screenplay. It just, it has babies, you know.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Richard Price]

And then you're on your way when you make enough money and you feel like you found something that you don't want to give to others to. To manipulate. That's a novel.

[Chris Rye]

So that was, that's what Clockers was at the moment. Yeah.

[Richard Price]

It all came out of research for Sea of Love, which was a Pacino cop movie.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Richard Price]

Because they did ride alongs with detectives in Jersey City and they went to a housing. I grew up in a housing project in the Bronx in the 50s and 60s, but you know, it was basically a working class environment. But now it's like late 80s crack time and you know, to build the bricks were the same. Everything else was like, oh my God, what happened? Yeah, you know, because crack was. It's just everybody looked so dangerous or lost, you know, and the whole place smacked of doom. And because I had my own drug habit, I mean, but it was, you know, like middle class drugs, you know, sniffing. You know, they used to say coke is God's way of telling you you're making too much money. But you know, that just powder coke. And now here comes this stink crack. And it's a juxtaposition of my own drug history and housing project environment. And I just want to. What the. What happened here? Yeah, you know, and it scared the crap out of me, but at the same time, you know, it drove me forward, you know, like a burden snake. Sometimes the bird eats the snake.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. I remember very vividly being in I think high school, early high school, when the. I think Clockers was adapted or at least being talked about, adapted relatively soon after it was released. Am I right about that? Like.

[Richard Price]

Well, you know, the movie came out 90. I don't know when the movie. 95, I guess. Yeah. But I can't remember, but 92, the book was published.

[Chris Rye]

So right after the book, I was not a voracious reader. I read a little bit, but I was a big, big movie fan and I. I was really into the sort of then exploding independent film scene. Then I remember reading an interview with a director that I liked a lot named Nick Gomez, who had directed.

[Richard Price]

I know Nick. Yeah, I know Nick and he had directed. He was great. Jersey Drive.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Richard Price]

But he. What was the other movie?

[Chris Rye]

Laws of Gravity was the first movie.

[Richard Price]

He did Laws of Gravity, but both those movies knocked me out. He primarily does TV directing right now.

[Chris Rye]

He did some homicide episodes, but he had done an interview around Laws of Gravity and they were asking about what he was going to do next. And what is he hoping to do? And I think the interviewer said, well, what about something like Clockers? And he was like, well, Clockers, it's Richard Price. I mean, that's huge. That's huge. And I had never heard your name. And I all of a sudden, just voraciously sort of jumped into the bibliography, up to them. But it's interesting how the.

[Richard Price]

Wow. Thanks, Nick.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, thanks, Nick. But the film, I mean, that probably changed my life in some way. But even then, Even in the 90s, before the Internet, the way that the film career could inform the novels, and the novels could inform the film career. I'm sure you felt that yourself.

[Richard Price]

Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, things come out of things. So you learn things writing screenplays. And I learned things. I mean, each sort of informed the other. On the other hand, the best screenwriter in the world would make the world's worst novelist because there's no prose, there's no narrative, there's no consciousness. It's all 2D. And by a reverse, the world's best novelist will make the lousiest screenwriter because he's too wordy, he's too windy. You know, things don't move. You have all the time in the world to have a conversation in a book. You know, you could sit there eating a sandwich in a book. Fifteen minutes, 15 pages, as long as the talk is. Is good. And you try that in a movie, it's like, you know, it's like, okay, well, I wrote this scene, you know, and it goes on for two pages of talk. It. What's the director gonna do? Aim the camera, you know, push play, Go out and have a sandwich? You know, there's nothing. There's no movement. Yeah, we don't. You don't need movement in a novel like you do in film. You don't need. It's. One is kinetic, the other is static. It's on a page.

[Chris Rye]

Talk to me a little bit about writing for TV, though. So, obviously, had you done stuff before season three of the Wire? I know you had that. The NYC 22 show. Was that pre or post the Wire season.

[Richard Price]

That was afterwards.

[Chris Rye]

That was after. Okay.

[Richard Price]

The less said about that, the better. It was awful because it was a network. It's a network wants what the mainstream wants. The mainstream does not like anything that. That's different. You know, it's got to be something that reminds them of something, that reminds them of something before that.

[Chris Rye]

Right, right.

[Richard Price]

You know, if you want to do something different, you have to do independent film, I guess. I mean, the Budget has to be small, the expectations have to be low, but you're free to do what you want to do it. The minute as, as the cost goes up, the, the, the whoever's in charge of making money, it just clomps down on anything that smacks of like, well, people don't know about this. Well, let's try it. I can't afford to try. Do you know how much money is involved here?

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, but I was curious whether or not there were any moments in the, in that Wire writers room or in the times that you've experiences that you've had making long form television where you felt like you did have that creative freedom. Because if film is thought of as a director's medium and is perhaps more of an actor's medium, TV is at least advertised as a writer's medium.

[Richard Price]

Maybe the writer creator, you know, like, you know, whoever names a terrible, you know, the, whoever's in charge of the Law and order, endless franchises.

[Chris Rye]

Sure. Dick Wolf.

[Richard Price]

Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, somebody who had. The more you have under your belt, more, more control you have going forward. The thing, ironically, the Wire has zero control in a way.

[Chris Rye]

Sure.

[Richard Price]

I mean, it's a whole room of people, but you've got such a cast of characters and so everything somebody does has to resonate forward X number of episodes. And you have to know, you have to lock down every episode to the point of, well, we need this, this, and this to happen. This, this and this to happen and this, this, this to happen. So when you leave a meeting for one of the episodes that are wired out, you're supposed to write, you've got this, this handful of multicolored index cards coded for each character. And. Okay, now, okay, now I got to do a scene where Omar's on the phone and Omar's talking to this guy because whoever's doing the next episode past me, everything has to dovetails. I mean, you can't go off. I have a better idea. What if I kill Omar?

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Richard Price]

You know, or you know, what if we find out that McNulty's gay? You said. Wait a minute, wait a minute. This is an assembly line, right? The only wiggle room I had was in humor, you know, but every, every episode was written in a telephone booth. You know, that's about, that's about as much wingspan as you ever have.

[Chris Rye]

So do you have like a. Do you have a preference to what size room you're writing in then? If it's a telephone booth and is the novel then a wide open landscape? Do you feel like, you can do either. Do you like having the experience of moving?

[Richard Price]

You know, I don't know if you. Listen, I love. My favorite thing is to write episodic TV based on material that I didn't write.

[Chris Rye]

Okay.

[Richard Price]

You know, because I can see. Oh, the sky more. This woman more or less laid it out for me. Yeah, I'll take it. You know, but sometimes freedom is a noose. I like to know exactly where I'm going, and then. Then I'll go to town on where I'm going. You know, I'll make. I'll make the best of it. If I have to, like, create an original thing for tv, if I have to create a really original thing, I'll write a novel, you know, but I'd rather. If I'm writing something that's been adapted, like the Night of it was called Criminal justice on BBC, you know, then it's like, okay, I got it. I know where the stories go now. Now I'm going to Americanize it. It. The funny thing is, I watched Criminal Justice. It was six episodes. Great acting, and I really enjoyed it. But now all of a sudden, you say, okay, well, we're going to adapt this now. Then you watch it more carefully, and you go, that makes no sense. What the hell? Everything looks like crap to you. Yeah, because you. What do I do with that? I mean, what. You know, so you wind up having to invent. Invent, which is fine as long as I have that backbone of. Of, you know, progression of story. But, you know, that somebody else sure suggested. I'm good, but if it's original, I don't. I want to do tv.

[Chris Rye]

When you're doing novels, do you work from a really strict structure? Do you know where it's going to end? Do you do. Are you. Are you basically answering to your own adaptation in some ways?

[Richard Price]

Well, I give myself an elevator pitch.

[Chris Rye]

Okay.

[Richard Price]

You know, I mean, basically, because so much of it. I mean, you can. You can outline this thing to death. The minute that you start writing, everything changes. The minute you go, it was a dark and stormy night in your own handwriting, and you look down at it, you know, it's all better off, you know, because outlining does not. Is not writing. You know, it's like Lamaze class, you know, that's not giving birth. So, I mean, it helps to be organized. But you got to leave a lot of room for inspiration, or you got to leave a lot of room for how you feel after you've committed a character to a place and start being inside the character. And then realize, well, you know, point 812 doesn't make any sense now. You know, because character acts. You know, listen, why is this guy eating ham? You know, I mean, I learned that partially. I learned that from avoiding actors when I was writing movies, because actors will have ideas after the horse has left the gate.

[Chris Rye]

Sure.

[Richard Price]

And you don't. And, you know, what if. Is there a world in which. Blah, blah. But then at one point, I remember writing Ransom, Mel Gibson. And Gary kept haunting the production office. Every time he saw me, he slowed down. And I was trying to hide under the table because he's gonna come in. But at some point, I realized what he's saying actually makes sense because he is the character. He's been walking around in that. In that character's brain and clothing. And, you know, he would have as. Just as a valuable a take on what that character would and wouldn't do as. As myself. And that's. I still want to avoid actors, but, you know, I. I have respect for the fact that, well, I think my character's gonna do this, do this, do this. Okay, let's start writing. Oh, no, no, he's never gonna do that. You know. Yeah, the writing tells you what you don't know because the writing. Nothing happens until you write.

[Chris Rye]

Were you attracted to being on set just as a spectator, and did you find the process of making this stuff very interesting, or were you.

[Richard Price]

I hated being on set. It's the most boring thing in the world. You know, the reason why they. On the set, they're constantly passing around, like, food treats. Like a platter of tortillas will come out, or all of a sudden there's, like, you know, dipped Monte Cristo sandwiches are coming around or, you know, like, you know, little custards. And the reason why they do that is because they want to allay everybody's boredom.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Richard Price]

You know, so you feel like, oh, you know, if. You know, if I stand here and nobody asked me a question and I go into a semi comma, I get rewarded in 20 minutes with something else I'd never eat, you know? Yeah. You know, by the time. By the time the movie's done, nobody's close fits.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, I did notice that. And the few times I've been to set is the abundance of M and Ms. Is just outrageous.

[Richard Price]

Oh, God.

[Chris Rye]

One of my favorite. I mean, my favorite novel by you. One of my favorite novels is Lush Life. And I was living in New York when that came out. I sometimes. If my memory of New York is foggy at the time, I Almost refer to Lush Life as a kind of biography. I mean, I was not unlike the protagonist at that moment in my life. I was wondering whether or not you had authors that taught you what New York was. Authors that filled in, articulated what New York meant to you. Because obviously it's such a huge character in a lot of your books.

[Richard Price]

Well, New York, like who is New York? I mean, you know, if they say the five, let's just stick with film directors. Is it Martin Scorsese's New York? Is it Whit Stillman's New York? You know, is it Spike Lee's New York? Is it Woody Allen?

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, right.

[Richard Price]

You know, Greta Gerwig's New York. It's like. It's like New York doesn't exist. New York is a collection of New York's.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Richard Price]

You know, so I didn't. Nobody needed to tell me about New York. I mean, I lived here all my life. If I don't know it by now, I'm like encased in something. But I did have. There are writers that gave me a. Showed me a way to write that was comfortable for me. And it's a voice talk about. This is Lenny Bruce, because he. His spritzing. I just read transcripts when I was in high school of his routines and they, they paste. They used ellipses every time he paused and then he would free associate, free associate. Somehow get to get there, you know, and that was like my kind of like poppy kind of thing.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Richard Price]

And the other writer, I guess was. I always speak of Hubert Selby because Last Exit to Brooklyn, you know, it was basically. You could look at it as kind of like social realism, but it's social realism on speed. You know, it's impressionistic, it's fast, it takes all the, you know, the time honored. Social fiction is usually, you know, like an indictment and a demonstration to the court of. Of unfairness in the world. And it can read very solemn, you know, because the subject is solemn. But. But I didn't want to write like. Like I was writing with a hammer and tongs, you know, and I guess Selby, who roomed with. He was part of the Village. I don't know if it was the jazz scene per se, but he was.

[Chris Rye]

In that bebop, the beat scene kind of down there. Yeah.

[Richard Price]

And you know, he didn't waste a lot of time and the stuff was lyrical without, you know, being so poetic. He didn't know what the hell he was talking about. But it was kind of. It taught me how to write narrative with it. With a. With a jazz heart. You know, it was lighter. It was like social realism. I wouldn't say it's social realism light, but it's like there was music in the sentences. Yeah. You know, and that's me. That's. I want to. I want to write like that, sort of.

[Chris Rye]

I did certainly, is that. That very much resonates with me when I listen, when I. When I read your books, I actually hear them rather. You know, there are some writers that you. You're reading and you're sort of intellectually processing all the things that are happening. But with your books, I. I can hear these people talking, and it. It has a rhythm of its own with lush life and. And honestly, with Lazarus Man, I think one of the things I admire about you is that you acknowledge that New York City is in this constant state of transformation, that for whoever just moved to New York, there's someone there who misses the old New York. But you.

[Richard Price]

I'm still Harlem. I'm a white guy.

[Chris Rye]

But you write very nonjudgmentally about that. You know, I think you're very matter of fact about it, But I don't think you geolocate or chronologically locate a time when New York was at its best and since then has fallen.

[Richard Price]

Every generation has its own nostalgia, you know, and in turn will be a source of nostalgia for somebody. And it's always half bullshit because, you know, you say, oh, oh, oh, when Glenn Miller played songs that made the hit for, you know, that whole crap. Yeah. You know, you know, people were, oh, it was a nickel to buy a hot dog. Yeah, well, your. Your salary was $60 a week, so it better costs a nickel. I mean, they just remember what seemed more innocent. Yeah, but there's a lot of dirty around that. Innocent that is. It's selective amnesia.

[Chris Rye]

I find myself nostalgic for the Barnes and Noble in Union Square. Not Astor Place, the Astor Place. Barnes and Noble. That was.

[Richard Price]

Are you kidding me? I remember when the first Barnes and Noble went up and I said, you know, well, there goes the neighborhood, you know, because the whole thing, you're supposed to have small independent bookstores, and you didn't think of them as independent bookstores. They were just bookstores, you know, as Barnes and Noble that put in the word independent, AKA fighting for its life.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. When I was reading Lazarus Man, I felt like I could feel that book in conversation with other works that you've produced. Especially there were parts of Lazarus man that really reminded me of Freedomland in terms of the protagonist who has a Huge secret. Obviously, it's much more destructive in Freedomland than in Lazarus Man. It's more almost transformative, this new identity that this person comes through. But, you know, when you're writing these books, I'm curious how much you're conscious of your own bibliography of your own press works. And you're like, oh, that's in harmony with this.

[Richard Price]

You know, it dawned on me, you know, halfway through writing Lazarus man, one of the main characters is a Harlem funeral director, you know, you know, a Blackfoot. Oh, my God. The whites, which I wrote just before, had a black funeral director base. And. But I didn't. I'm not thinking, oh, I better not do Freedom layout or better not do Clockers again. I just. It's. Each time, it's like, what triggers me, yeah, what do I want to write? But. And if I wind up writing about a tight place, like geographical location, you know, you could do a thousand books about New York or a thousand books about anywhere, a village, without leaving the village, and still bring something to the party. Every book that wasn't there before. Because as the. You grow as a writer, so you bring new perspectives, and you can bring a new depth that you perhaps hadn't had or new insights that life has given you that you hadn't had when you wrote the last book. And it's gonna show up.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful place for us to wrap up. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Obviously, your work's meant an absolute mountain to me, so it's really honored to meet you. Thank you so much for doing this.

[Richard Price]

Oh, my pleasure. It was enjoyed it.

[Chris Rye]

Take care.