The Watch – Podcast Summary

Episode: Jason Mantzoukas on ‘Shoresy’ Season 4 and ‘SAS: Rogue Heroes.’ Plus, Richard Price on Writing ‘Lazarus Man.’
Date: February 28, 2025
Hosts: Chris Ryan, Andy Greenwald (The Ringer)
Guests: Jason Mantzoukas, Richard Price

Overview

Chris Ryan and Jason Mantzoukas gather for an in-depth, raucously affectionate exploration of “Shoresy” Season 4, the trajectory and achievement of “SAS: Rogue Heroes” Season 2, and the new Steven Knight show “A Thousand Blows.” In the second half, Chris interviews acclaimed novelist and screenwriter Richard Price about his new book “Lazarus Man” and the craft of storytelling across mediums. The tone is lively, passionate, and irreverently insightful, with Chris and Jason’s friendship anchoring the critical, heartfelt conversation.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. ‘Shoresy’ Season 4 – TV Love Letter

Main Takeaways:

• Season 4 is described as a shift: if Seasons 1–3 were “Bad News Bears” underdog hockey, Season 4 is a soulful “life after hockey” exploration.
• Emphasis on character over plot: “The mistake we've made is thinking that story matters for shows that are funny… it is characters.” (Jason, 08:34)
• The show’s unique “accordion” structure allows deep character moments to interweave with running jokes and episodic bits.
• Joyful praise for the show’s repeated callbacks, dense joke structure, and emotional intelligence: Shoresy’s evolution from irredeemable villain to one of TV's most complex, heartfelt characters.

Memorable Moments & Quotes:

• On Shoresy’s Growth:
  “Has gone from an unrepentant absolute villain to maybe like a character that has the most heart and has shown the most growth and the most interesting arc."
  — Jason Mantzoukas [06:09]

• On Comedy Television:
  “The mistake we've made is thinking that story matters for shows that are funny, and story doesn't matter. It is characters.”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [08:34]

• On Mentorship:
  “This entire season is essentially about Shorzy and Goody and Hitch and Michaels and Dolo mentoring these young like pretty high level prospects who are about to go off to national clubs...”
  — Chris Ryan [09:20]

• Accordion Structure:
  “It does this accordion thing… where the entire season is essentially about Shorzy and core guys mentoring youth, but stretches it over six episodes, drawing out meaning and jokes.”
  — Chris Ryan [09:19–12:21]

• The Kangaroo Court Bit:
  “They make you wait… then the gyms tattle and then they do this thing called kangaroo court where the hockey team in the locker room becomes a courtroom…”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [15:59]

Notable Scenes:

• The “Blueberry Buddies” shirts and five-minute riff on team names [22:46]
• Kangaroo Court—locker room litigation and a running grievance gag that pays off [15:59]
• Heartfelt moments: “You need to find a place to put your love” and Shorzy’s vulnerability [21:17–22:46]

Timestamps

• [04:28] – Season 4 as the beginning of “Part 2” for Shoresy
• [09:19] – Show’s ‘accordion’ narrative and mentorship storyline
• [13:23, 15:59] – The “Gyms left on the dock” and Kangaroo Court set-piece
• [21:17] – Emotional center: Nat’s advice to Shorzy about love

2. ‘SAS: Rogue Heroes’ Season 2 – TV With War and Heart

Key Points:

• The show balances bombastic, stylized action with deep character trauma and moral ambiguity.
• Discusses the real history behind SAS, and how the show occasionally chooses narrative drama over perfect historic accuracy.
• Discussion of two main characters (Swindell’s and O’Connell’s) being separated: how this allowed secondary characters like Reg to shine.
• The Italian campaign arc is front-and-center, reminiscent of great ensemble war dramas.

Quotes and Moments:

• “Boy, does it? And it haunts me. You know, like, that's what. I think this show's so incredible because a little bit like, sh. Yes. It's a. It's a War show… but they are doing incredible work showing… how humanity is being wrung out of these men.”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [36:16]

• “Tonkin. So that you have like multiple episodes of just a single man behind enemy lines who is just trying to get back to his unit.”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [43:57]

Notables:

• Reg’s emotional journey is a central focus.
• The Italian village defense sequence is compared to “Saving Private Ryan.”
• The bold use of pop music (AC/DC, The White Stripes) in battle scenes for style and energy.

Timestamps

• [31:13] – Steven Knight background and show’s origins
• [34:13] – Dynamic and story choices between real history vs. narrative
• [41:15–42:14] – Deep dive on Reg’s arc and character devastation
• [44:07] – Tonkin’s escape story
• [44:29] – Background on the historical context (Geneva Conventions, POW treatment)

3. ‘A Thousand Blows’ – A Steven Knight Period Piece

Highlights:

• The show is praised as “rock and roll period piece,” with a kinetic, “Deadwood”-like energy.
• Standout performance from Erin Doherty as Mary Carr, the “Queen of the Elephants,” compared favorably to major TV antiheroes.
• The show’s language, vibrancy, and focus on street-level, multiethnic London is lauded.
• Tie-ins to current and past British crime dramas (“Warrior,” “Deadwood”) discussed.

Quotes and Moments:

• “Aaron DY is essentially the centerpiece… She’s acting and doing something interesting in every frame of this show.”
  — Chris Ryan [45:30]

• “This is a performance that needs to be seen because she is electric to watch… We’re watching her watch, which I love.”
  — Jason Mantzoukas [47:33]

• “But like, it's almost like I would wonder whether or not the people who are in scenes with her are like, whoa, you're kind of like… you are cooking right now.”
  — Chris Ryan [48:48]

Timestamps

• [44:29] – Steven Knight’s rock-and-roll period TV approach
• [45:30] – Erin Doherty performance analysis
• [50:11] – Leads’ immigrant storyline and bare-knuckle boxing plot

4. The Streaming Landscape Frustration

Chris and Jason lament that great shows like “SAS: Rogue Heroes” are hard to find in the US due to boutique streaming rights.

• “The bummer about Rogue Heroes, the only bummer is that in order to watch it here, you have to subscribe to mgm, which is absolutely stupid.” — Jason Mantzoukas [56:28]

5. Anime Recommendation: Frieren – Beyond Journey’s End

• Jason recommends the anime “Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End” [59:23].
• “It's about people who are learning how to care about other people. They're learning how to be, how to have emotional connections… it is an incredible show.” — Jason Mantzoukas [60:53]

Interview: Richard Price on Writing 'Lazarus Man'

Overview: Chris interviews Richard Price, acclaimed novelist (Clockers, Lush Life) and screenwriter (The Color of Money, The Wire), on his new novel “Lazarus Man”—set in Harlem after a catastrophic building collapse. They discuss the difference between writing for print and screen, the New York literary tradition, and the interplay between nostalgia and city life.

Highlights and Insights

On Shifting Mediums:

• “For novelists, the most valuable thing you can buy is time.” [66:55]
• “Screenwriting is about… architecture. You got two hours, you got four characters, race to the top of the pyramid.” [67:57]

On TV Writing/ The Wire:

• “Every episode was written in a telephone booth. That's about as much wingspan as you ever have.” [75:59]
• “I love. My favorite thing is to write episodic TV based on material that I didn't write… sometimes freedom is a noose. I like to know exactly where I'm going…” [76:10]

On New York as Setting:

• “New York is a collection of New York's… There are writers that gave me a… way to write that was comfortable for me… Lenny Bruce, Hubert Selby.” [82:13, 83:05]
• “Every generation has its own nostalgia, you know, and in turn will be a source of nostalgia for somebody. And it's always half bullshit…” [85:25]

On Process and Growth:

• “You can outline this thing to death. The minute that you start writing, everything changes… outlining does not. Is not writing.” [77:55]
• “Every book… as the. You grow as a writer, so you bring new perspectives, and you can bring a new depth that you perhaps hadn't had or new insights that life has given you…” [88:18]

Timestamps

• [64:42] – Richard Price introduction
• [66:06] – Early writing and transition from novels to screenplays
• [72:50] – TV writing, The Wire, creative restrictions
• [81:12–85:25] – New York's influence and the persistence of nostalgia
• [88:18] – Returning to similar themes, but with new perspective

Additional Quotes and Notable Moments

• Chris on emotional resonance of Shorzy:
  “It is definitely very therapeutic. I actually got, like, a wonderful email from a listener named Andre Cormier… We can only hope that our country never take itself too seriously, except when we're figuring out where to put our love.” [25:27]

• Praise for character games:
  “They are very good at creating character games that for me, do not wear out their welcome… There isn't. You feel as though there's nobody being like, hey, we gotta dig into the gyms. We gotta get gyms backstory. No, we don't.” [14:57]

• On friendship and TV discovery:
  “Isn't it great that even though we're consuming and like. And I feel like nobody consumes more than you do… there are still shows that arrive that are fucking great.” [55:30]

In Summary

The episode stands as a vibrant, smart celebration of sharp comedy and bruising drama on TV, and the continued joys and pains of great storytelling. Shoresy is elevated as a singular achievement in humanist, laugh-out-loud television, Rogue Heroes is admired as a bombastic war saga with real emotional depth, and A Thousand Blows is championed as must-watch, performance-driven period drama. The conversation is equal parts affectionate roast, deep nerd analysis, and heartfelt appreciation for stories that surprise, challenge, and move us.

Richard Price’s interview serves as a masterclass in craft and perspective, offering an insider’s reflections on writing across novels, film, and television, and on what it means to keep returning to stories, places, and selves with fresh eyes.

For Reference: Key Timestamps

| Time | Topic | |--------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:28 | Shoresy Season 4 narrative shift | | 09:19 | Accordion narrative structure and mentorship | | 13:23 | “Gyms left at the dock” and Kangaroo Court | | 21:17 | Emotional depth: “Find a place to put your love” | | 31:13 | Steven Knight’s career and Rogue Heroes background | | 34:13 | Character separations/history vs. narrative in Rogue Heroes | | 41:15–42:14 | Reg's arc and the cost of war | | 44:07 | Tonkin’s behind-enemy-lines journey | | 45:30 | Erin Doherty’s commanding performance in A Thousand Blows | | 50:11 | Immigrant story and boxing plot in A Thousand Blows | | 59:23–61:28 | Anime rec: Frieren – Beyond Journey’s End | | 64:42 | Richard Price interview begins | | 66:06 | Early writing, novels to screenplays | | 72:50 | The Wire—TV writing constraints | | 81:10–85:25 | New York’s identity, nostalgia, literary influences | | 88:18 | Writing growth and fresh perspectives |

Essential Viewing/Reading from this Episode:

• Shoresy (Hulu)
• SAS: Rogue Heroes (mgm+)
• A Thousand Blows (Hulu)
• Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End (Crunchyroll)
• Richard Price’s “Lazarus Man”

[End of Summary]