One Award After Another: Oscars Recap. Plus, ‘Paradise’ Season 2, Episodes 4-6.

Summary

The Watch – Oscars Recap & “Paradise” Season 2, Eps 4-6

Hosts: Andy Greenwald & Chris Ryan
Date: March 16, 2026
Episode Theme: A deep-dive, day-after Oscars post-mortem and an enthusiastic, twist-filled unpacking of Hulu/Disney’s “Paradise” Season 2, Episodes 4–6.

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Main Theme and Purpose

Andy and Chris tackle a post-Oscars breakdown, dissecting broadcast choices, winners, industry implications, and the year’s best films. In the second half, they scrutinize Hulu/Disney’s “Paradise,” exploring how the show’s breakneck serialized style both honors and bends TV tradition, focusing specifically on shocking character twists and storytelling pivots in the latest aired episodes.

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Oscars Recap

General Vibes & The Telecast

• Oscars Rhythm & Pacing [05:25]:

  • Andy: "And you know what else didn’t want to rush? The Oscars. Yeah. Oh, boy, that was a lot."
  • Both hosts agree the program felt overlong, but the pacing avoided some pitfalls of previous years (“no movies tribute to movies” bits, etc).
  • Chris: “I thought it got off to a good tempo, and there’s just a lot of awards…” [05:31]

• Interstitial Bits vs. Awards [06:13]:

  • Chris: “I don’t need as much interstitial stuff... The awards are never the problem for me. It’s really like... ‘and now let’s slam on the brakes and do something else.’”
  • Andy appreciates that this year’s show mostly stayed on track, only dragging due to live issues like technical snafus and the tie.

Conan O'Brien as Host

• Conan’s Performance [09:06]:
  • Andy: “I thought his monologue was weaker this year... But his moves toward more seriousness were very well appreciated... Tonally appropriate for the night and the room.”
  • The hosts credit Conan with handling “serious” moments well, especially when history was made (e.g., Autumn Rakpal’s win as the first woman to take Best Cinematography) [11:15].

Technical Missteps & Chaos

• Andy notes several “loose chaos” moments: Melissa McCarthy’s broken mic, random applause, awkward audience cutaways, creating “a feeling of loose chaos in the room.” [10:12]

• On the K Pop Demon Hunters win: Andy’s daughter called cutting off the speech “the meanest thing I’ve ever seen. And her entire life is the Trump era.” [07:14]

The Legacy and Framing of Awards

• Split Successes: “One Battle After Another” and “Sinners” [20:23]:

  • Chris: “It’s a pretty decent and fair night... one battle after another’s night, and won six awards.”
  • Andy: “A really remarkably good year for movies and a very strong year for the nominees... Sinners and one battle after another... are both wildly original cinematic expressions and visions.” [23:43]

• Oscar Pool and Acting Races [22:17]:

  • Shoutouts for the depth of this year’s acting categories—especially Best Actor—and the strength of “secondary” performances.

• Historical Relevance of Current Winners [24:25]:

  • The hosts project that this year’s top films will age better than many Best Picture winners of the last 10–15 years. Andy: “...these are significant cinematic achievements that will last longer than this year or last longer than the King’s Speech...”

• Oscars as a Filmmaker’s Clubhouse [18:45]:

  • Camaraderie highlighted: “There was a moment when Jesse Buckley won. I think the cameras caught Coogler coming over to give Chloe a hug. And that stuff’s great... you want to cheer for not just Michael B. Jordan winning his first Oscar, but... him embracing Leo... welcoming him in…”

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Anniversaries and Presenter Choices [13:38]:

  • Moulin Rouge reunion with Ewan McGregor and Nicole Kidman: “That was really weird... did Nolan get caught up, like, cutting Odyssey stuff and so he couldn’t come to present Best picture?” [13:45]

• Bridesmaids Cast:

  • Andy: “They are funny always. And I was happy to see them.” [14:41]

• Screenwriting Awards Bit [31:06]:

  • “Was it a meta cruel joke commentary on the state of our business that the screenplay awards were given by Downey and Chris Evans... posting their way through an absolutely putrid non joke bit promoting an Avengers movie...?” – Andy

• In Memoriam Segment [32:28]:

  • “...the most memorable and the most crafted and the most intentional part of a show ostensibly celebrating the living art of cinema was the In Memoriam segment. And it was. Honestly, it was a sledgehammer.” – Andy
  • “I thought that the Rob Reiner thing was really, really moving...” [32:57]

• Barbra Streisand/Redford Moment [34:41]:

  • Andy: “It’s going to be about Babs.”

Industry Commentary and Box Office Discussion

• Originality in Big Studio Pictures [49:34]:

  • Chris: “Do you walk out of here... see, we can make these original stories? They can be box office, successful box office movies regardless of the reporting about what their budgets were... these original films are finding an audience.”

• Warner Bros. Winning Streak [50:28]:

  • Andy: "You see, they're not risky swings. They were considered swings."

---

“Paradise” Season 2, Episodes 4–6: Breakdown & Insights

SPOILER ALERT for all discussed episodes

Character Deaths & Twists

• Shailene Woodley’s Annie [58:44, 56:37]:
  • “Shailene Woodley here for a bad time. Not a long time.” – Andy
  • Andy and Chris praise Woodley’s energy and her departure as keeping the show “committed to its core principles of speed, story, and surprise.”
  • The Annie/Xavier outside-the-bunker storyline is cited as more “emotionally compelling” and dynamic than the silo/bunker plotlines.

Show’s Narrative Style

• Broadcast DNA & Maximalism [59:01]:

  • “...an inheritor of a very specific strain of serialized broadcast storytelling... This Is Us, like Dan Fogelman. It’s very similar DNA pitched in a different type of genre.”
  • Tiny amounts of screen time do heavy narrative lifting, especially for character relationships and backstory.

• Andy: “It does everything so, so efficiently... The show moves so fast. At no point until doing this podcast with you am I like, it’s remarkable that Gary packed changes of clothes and also showers and hair and makeup in that bunker.” [61:02]

Recapping and Memory

• Andy admits he must always watch the recap: “I honestly don't retain any information. I watch every show just like a happy baby seeing Teletubbies for the first time.” [61:57]

Character & Plot Highlights

• The Mailman Twist [63:15]:

  • Chris unpacks the “Mailman” episode: Gary (Cameron Britton) is introduced as a sweet new character—only for the twist to reveal he’s the true threat, subverting expectation.
  • Andy: “There are no wasted moments in Paradise because it moves too fucking fast.” [65:51]

• Comparison to Slow Prestige Dramas [65:09]:

  • Andy and Chris discuss the efficiency and density of “Paradise” compared to the slack, sometimes aimless pace of prestige cable.

Musings on Apocalypse Tropes

• Found Family vs. Cynicism [67:24]:

  • Andy celebrates the show’s occasional optimism about human nature: “I’m here for one where people come together and make it work. That is also a zag from what we’ve seen.”

• Bunker Mechanics and Bizarre Details [69:18]:

  • The show “yada yadas” through challenges: everyone looks great after three years underground, children neither age nor struggle.

Jane’s Showcase/Origin Episode [70:19+]

• Over-the-Top Backstory:
  • Andy: “...we have her from birth. Not just her from birth and her backstory with her difficult mother and her childhood. And then how she once wanted to help her mentor get a promotion so she cut her boss’s rival’s dick off and delivered it to her in a bag.” [72:12]
  • A highlight of the show’s penchant for unhinged, maximalist “trauma origin stories.”
• Possible Time Travel Element:
  • Chris (74:03+): Internet theorists speculate on a time machine plot device, nodding to the show’s “Lost”-like tendencies regarding intersecting timelines.

General Assessment

• Season 2 is seen as an improvement: “I like the show more this season... and thinking about it, it’s almost entirely because of the Annie and Xavier out in the world stuff.”
• Chris: “Every single thing that happens in Paradise is actually worth paying attention to. Yes or none at all. And you’ll just find out.”
• Both hosts value “Paradise” for leaning into the anything-can-happen energy and breaking away from prestige drama conventions, even at the expense of logic or believability.

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Standout Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Andy:
  “[Conan was] a professional funny man who can read the room... But I thought his steady hand on... not solemnity but more seriousness were very well appreciated...” [09:06]
• Andy (on memorability):
  “...these are significant cinematic achievements that will last longer than this year or last longer than the King’s Speech and particularly Sinners and One Battle After Another.” [24:25]
• Chris:
  “There are Transformers that I know more about than Barbra Streisand’s discography.” [35:07]
• Andy (on Paradise):
  “This is an inheritor of a very specific strain of serialized broadcast storytelling: This Is Us, Dan Fogelman—it’s very similar DNA pitched in a different type of genre.” [59:01]
• Andy:
  “I honestly don’t retain any information. I watch every show just like a happy baby seeing Teletubbies for the first time.” [61:57]
• Chris (on Paradise’s twisty energy):
  “...it’s nice to have it compact within the episode rather than be like in two or three episodes the season twist is that the mailman is bad.” [64:09]
• Andy:
  “There are no wasted moments in Paradise because it moves too fucking fast.” [65:51]
• Chris (time machine theory):
  “Maybe it’s not individually... but Alex and the other Sinatra shooter drop is like a time machine of some kind that would track with the lost tendencies of this show.” [74:03]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:23] Oscars conversation begins
• [07:34] Discussion of Conan as host
• [13:36] Reflection on anniversary presenters, “Moulin Rouge” reunion
• [17:22] Actor races, campaign fatigue
• [20:23] Best Picture, split between “Sinners” and “One Battle After Another”
• [32:28] In Memoriam segment deep dive
• [49:20] Original movies and studio industry analysis
• [55:37] Transition to "Paradise" discussion
• [56:37] Annie’s (Shailene Woodley) arc and death
• [63:13] The Mailman episode breakdown
• [70:19] Jane episode and time travel speculation

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Overall Tone and Language

Lightly irreverent, deeply knowledgeable, and packed with affectionate in-jokes—especially when skewering industry clichés or self-mythologizing. Both hosts mix heart and snark, always reminding listeners of their film and television fandom and experience.

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Final Verdict:
A robust, highly entertaining Oscars breakdown, celebrating an unusually memorable crop of films and a refreshingly smooth(ish) show, paired with the raucous, unpredictable pleasures of “Paradise.” Andy and Chris merge big-picture industry analysis with granular, spoiler-filled plot dissection, making the episode essential for fans who want the context—and juicy details—behind Hollywood’s biggest night and broadcast TV’s twistiest drama.

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

this episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else. But that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast from us, from vw, from the other outcasts out there. Take a chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then. Because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn [e-mail]. PAIN sports have to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio is accepting on behalf of Sean Penn, it's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you hear where he was smoking?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, in Ukraine.

[Andy Greenwald]

In Ukraine.

[Chris Ryan]

That's like, is that rumor? Did that get confirmed?

[Andy Greenwald]

Who would confirm it, do you think?

[Chris Ryan]

Zelensky. Oh, he'd be like, I am here with Sean Penn.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, your accent. Game remains supreme. He. I believe he's been weirdly silent.

[Chris Ryan]

He has been. Zelensky has been.

[Andy Greenwald]

Zelensky has.

[Chris Ryan]

He's got a couple things on his plate.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Sean Penn hanging out.

[Andy Greenwald]

He had Stellan Skarsgrd on his ballot. So he's a little.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, it's good to see you, man. Oscars Monday, the day after. You can feel a change in this town.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Finally we can exhale.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Andy Greenwald is right here. I'm Chris Ryan, this is the Watch. You can email [e-mail] you can follow us on Instagram at thewatchpod underscore, watch us on YouTube, the Ringer Dash TV channel. And watch us on Spotify where you're also listening to us. We're going to talk about the Oscars today. We're going to talk about the winners. We're going to talk about the broadcast. We're also going to talk about. About paradise, another property of the Disney Hulu empire. The umbrella we got last night, late. It was updated. The Jane episode went up. Yes, one of us has seen that and it might surprise you who.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's pretty thrilling.

[Chris Ryan]

It's great.

[Andy Greenwald]

Don't tell them. No, don't tell them. You have to.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, you think people would listen to 42 minutes of Oscar conversation just to find out which one of us watched last night's Paradise?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's like my children watching three and a half hours of the Oscars to see K Pop Demon hunters perform. You know what I mean? You don't put the one thing that people are excited about at the top of the show, bro.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel bad for parents on the east coast for last night. We're going to get to that. All right? So let's do. Let's do some Oscars and then we'll get to paradise later. Later this week. Pitt, Madison.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I might even talk about Marshall's brother.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow, you really riding with him into these.

[Chris Ryan]

My guy, Logan Marshall Green came back for his. For his quarter.

[Andy Greenwald]

My old. I knew him years ago. Logan Marshall Green is on Marshalls.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And what do you think the Marshalls in Marshalls is about now?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm more interested and you're the Greens today for those watching on video.

[Chris Ryan]

We did not. We did not. We're not covering DTF today. Perhaps we will revisit.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, do you want to save your Thoughts on Rooster EP 2 for the end of the show?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm waiting for everybody to see the conclusion, you know, where they find out that it's actually just a dream in Bob Newhart's head. Let's talk about Oscars. This part of today's episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It's easy to sit back back and follow the crowd. But all those award winning actors and directors didn't get nominated for making work like everybody else. They took chances and pushed themselves to create something uniquely their own. This is your sign to do the same from us, from VW and from the other drivers out there. Take control. Chase after your ambitions. Because honestly, what are you waiting for?

[Andy Greenwald]

Before we get into it specifically, do you want to clear the air between us? Because it seemed like you walked in here and you were like, you feel. Felt like I was. Well, this is just a fun one

[Chris Ryan]

because sometimes you live text your reactions to any given pop cultural moment to me, and sometimes I come in and I'm blind. And this is one of those. I don't know. I'm like, I'm. I'm. I. I don't know. If you thought it was a delightful broadcast, if you thought it was a tedious broadcast, if you thought Conan was incredible. If you thought Conan.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Failed to meet the moment. Tell me everything. You failed. Let's start with the broadcast itself.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you know who I was texting all night? Or do you want. Because I. I was live texting who? No, I. I was behind. I was watching it later that. You watched it like you were 4pm you were in your seat, ready to go west coast time. I was having a more leisurely afternoon, so I didn't want to, like.

[Chris Ryan]

You didn't want to rush.

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you know what? You know what else didn't want to rush? The Oscars. Yeah. Oh, boy, that was a lot.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought it got off to, like, a good tempo.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And there's just a lot of awards. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But there were also moments when you felt like they could have seen it coming. Now, introducing a new Oscar is a big deal, and the casting award people have been advocating it for a long time. I think it's an exciting addition. Okay. I don't know if it's an exciting addition, but I think it's a worthwhile and deserving addition to the broadcast. And of course, you want to highlight the fact that it's the first one, but do you think there was a moment in the booth when they realized that it had already been five minutes and Gwyneth hadn't started talking about her person yet, that they were like, oh, we misjudged this.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, here's my thing about these.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm pro. Awards. I like the awards.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. You don't like the. I.

[Chris Ryan]

The. The. I don't. I don't need as much interstitial stuff. You know, I think we could do a rule where it's just like opening monologue, whatever bit you want to do. Then I can imagine, you know, you need some. Pepper it a little bit over the course of the night. But I'm really like, the awards are never the problem for me. It's really like the like, and now let's slam on the brakes and do something. El.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you asked me about the broadcast. They didn't really do that this year, which I thought was good for the most part. Unless there's some trippy dance number I'm forgetting about. They didn't say. And now a movies tribute to movies. Don't we love movies. Like they've been doing for the last 15 years. Which I appreciated. So they mostly got about their business and it's not necessarily their fault that their business was delayed further by tie, for example.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

So they got, they got that back

[Chris Ryan]

when they gave K Pop Demon Hunters it's award that they had been like holding for three and a half hours and then they just kicked that guy off the stage.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was wild. Yeah, my nine year old was like, that was the meanest thing I've ever seen. And she's been her entire life is the Trump era.

[Chris Ryan]

So who is she talking about?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the meanest thing she's ever seen.

[Chris Ryan]

Who is the dude who couldn't speak, who didn't get his chance?

[Andy Greenwald]

We'll never know.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's been scrubbed completely from existence. He doesn't even get an Oscar now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So let's talk. Let's start with the beginning.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

What did you think of Conan this year?

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, show starts and I was reminded of my number one feeling, which is, man, I really wanted to try and watch Weapons before this broadcast. And I was like, ah, I guess it's about kids and a lady. Oh man, you don't know what Weapons

[Chris Ryan]

is about at all.

[Andy Greenwald]

At 2:38am a bunch of children go missing. Yeah. And you know where I learned that? The poster. So I am. Otherwise I am pure as snow.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you the kind of person that the second the Oscars ends, you're like, those movies now have been consigned to the dustbin of history and I will never engage with them again. Or are you like, okay, Weapons, like I should go see that the King's

[Andy Greenwald]

Speech is still on my list. I'm getting a circle back the artist. It's a good question. But weapons is something that I've been psyching myself up for.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I feel like I should engage with some of the post whitest kids, you know, oeuvre, you know, of the members of that sketch group, I should at least invest in one of their work. So no, I feel like this guy has an important become an important filmmaker and people look at him.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you watching his Resident Evil adaptation when it comes out?

[Andy Greenwald]

I Don't know. Maybe. I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

Look, I know. I was meaning, like, are you enthusiastic for that ip?

[Andy Greenwald]

We're at war, man. Like, anything's on the table for me now.

[Chris Ryan]

You can say that about anything.

[Andy Greenwald]

Now I'm gonna say it.

[Chris Ryan]

So when I'm like, did you watch the Madison? You're like, we're at war.

[Andy Greenwald]

How dare you ask me to say no. I have better things to do with my time.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks for listening.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, so the show starts and I am. I'm. I'm pro Conan.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought that as a host. I thought his monologue was weaker this year in terms of just like, here's a professional funny man who can read the room. But I thought his steady hand on the, on the rudder and also his moves towards some moments of not solemnity but of more seriousness were very well appreciated. I thought those were very tonally appropriate for the moment, for the night, for the room. And I was grateful that he was doing it.

[Chris Ryan]

Obviously, like a tumultuous year for him personally, like, for a variety of reasons. I think, you know, whether it's 12, 15 months, but fires, losing parents, Rob Reiner, like, just a really, like a lot going on. He seems like, you know, when I've. When I've watched his pod, he seems to be doing fine. But, like, I did note that when, like, you know, the three quarter or almost towards the end of the show, and he was just unaware that he was on camera and he was like, almost there, almost there. Which could have just been nerves, like, we're almost done. But it almost seemed like he was like, I can't wait for this to be over.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think that was him. I think there were enough technical glitches that there, there may be a little bit of an internal audit about the direction and things. There was Melissa McCarthy's microphone. There were other weird elements of sound where you could hear the room but not the people on stage. And they were hastily. There was a weird whip pan where they cut someone in the audience, but the camera wasn't ready. And then. Yeah. And then it cut. There were a couple explosions. Not explosions. Eruptions of applause or screaming. That was unclear whether it was just like very excited nominees.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

When Kimmel said something and was there just like a. Kimmel, like, mentioned something and there was like a huge, huge reaction.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. It was about documentaries. And think one of the nominee groups was very excited about it. And he was like, well, they won't invite you back if you keep interrupting. I think he was trying to Be playful. But there. But there was. You add up all those things, and there's kind of a feeling of loose chaos in the room. Not enough fun. Everyone's drunk at the Golden Globes and Tina Fey is making jokes sort of way. So when it cut to him and he didn't even know if he was on or not, I didn't put that on him. I think. I think, no, I'm not putting it on him.

[Chris Ryan]

I just meant, like, I couldn't tell whether that was a, like, mass drop. I'm like, I'm ready for this to be over.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a tough show. That said, I have seen other people point this out. This is not, like, a unique take. But one thing that we have criticized hosts of these award shows in the past for is not actually being responsible to the audience past the point of their monologue. And so when Autumn Rakpal wins for cinematography for Sinners, it's an exciting moment and a significant moment. And I think everyone in the room understood the significance of the moment. Because a woman has never won best cinematographer at the Academy Awards before. I thought it was appropriate and good that Conan mentions that to the audience at home, that there's a reason for the extra ovation there. So I think he was invested and engaged. And then I also thought that a few of the bits, like The Jane Lynch YouTube bit was funny and the closing bit, I don't know how many people stuck around for it after hour four or whatever it was. The lockjaw, where he just does the end of one battle after another was pretty good and did make me wonder, did he have alternate endings planned for at least four or five of the Best picture nominees, or was this always the way the show was?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, like a sinner's thing. Like, was he going to dance at Irish, like, folk dance if, like, that's

[Andy Greenwald]

not the end of the movie I saw. Is that when you. That when you turned off, Were you Dave Wasserman of Sinners? I've seen enough.

[Chris Ryan]

The Irish have won.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Irish win. That's incredible.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that's what I think a lot of criticism seems to be missing. The Irish is your headline.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're wearing common Irish. You're wearing green head to toe. You're like, between Jesse Buckley.

[Chris Ryan]

No, actually, Jack o' Connell today is in honor of Cougs. In honor of Ryan Coogler.

[Andy Greenwald]

All right. It's not because Jesse Buckley and Jack o' Connell and Sinners are the biggest winners of culture this year. That was fun.

[Chris Ryan]

What did you think of the seemingly I mean, they weren't arbitrary because they were actual anniversaries. But like, I. Let's start at the end and work backwards. Ewan McGregor and Nicole Kidman. Moulin Rouge is not a big movie for me. So it took me like a solid 20 seconds to be like, is this a Moulin Rouge reunion? And then I kind of got the sense that maybe like, they had to replace someone who dropped out. Because with all due respect to both of those people who I really like, Ewan McGregor and Nicole Kibbons work generally, that doesn't feel like proportionate to the best picture.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was really weird.

[Chris Ryan]

And so I was almost like, did Nolan get caught up, like, cutting Odyssey stuff and so he couldn't come to present Best pick?

[Andy Greenwald]

It was very strange. That was. Is anyone in this room a Moulin Rouge head? Is that like. Have you seen it, Kaya?

[Chris Ryan]

No, sorry.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm sorry. I've never seen that film. Yeah, you know what? I'm okay with that. It's below King's Speech on my catch up list. Yeah. Um, very odd and very, like, it's

[Chris Ryan]

like, now welcome Vin Diesel and Radha Mitchell from Chronicles of Riddick.

[Andy Greenwald]

But also, what was also weird about it was that they seemed like, when they just start singing as if this was some, like, moment we've been waiting for.

[Chris Ryan]

Very weird, very strange. That was why I was almost like, did you guys. Were you guys supposed to do Best song or something?

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, the other thing that I would say is I don't care about arbitrary anniversaries. Sorry, stereo gum.

[Chris Ryan]

But the Internet does.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Internet does. But when they are charming, funny people, like most of the cast of Bridesmaids.

[Chris Ryan]

Way to take Stereoguma down a peg or two.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, it's a brushback. Bitch, you come at me again, Brooklyn Vegan, you're next. We don't mess around here. We'll call people out if need be. But they were great. Like, having the Bridesmaids women on stage was funny. And at no point was I like, ah, the passage of time. Bridesmaids. I was just like, they're. They are funny always. And I was happy to see them.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you know what I'm starting to wonder about?

[Andy Greenwald]

Wig. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Because she's like undefeated at award shows. But it seems almost like the guy you only want to see at bachelor parties. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like an amazing one night thing, but you wouldn't really want to trust the whole wedding to him.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, in terms of like officiating the

[Chris Ryan]

wedding in your metal Like, I could see it. Like, there was a point where I was just like, how come Wig and Carell don't just host one of these things? Because they have such great improvisatory skills with one another and great chemistry. And I wonder whether just because. And that's why Feral hasn't done one of these, where it's just like, it would just turn into a long eastbound and down scene, you know, And I think that's right. And people would be like, actually, this is a very solemn event. We're going to pay tribute to Robert Redford.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I think that would be tough. I think that's right.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you watch these rooting for people? I think it's a mix of rooting, sometimes rooting interest, a lot of. Just like my weird anxiety, secondary anxiety for people not. Not to fuck up, you know, Like, I just don't want to see people get yanked off stage, go too long, do the. The things that are, like, kind of

[Andy Greenwald]

forget to thank their team. I hate that.

[Chris Ryan]

I hate when they do that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I gotta thank Gary, for what it's worth.

[Chris Ryan]

Gotta thank Mark.

[Andy Greenwald]

These are guys.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You want to. Do you want to say more about them? Gary and Mark, your golf coach? I. I mean, we probably should begin by saying that there was a little bit more intrigue than in some past years. Yes. There was nothing. It was not as absolutely chalk as it's been the past few years. Even though it did, I think, end up mostly aligning with what the savvier prognosticators were predicting. I think there was still a chance for enough upsets or wild cards to keep you leaning in.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, this was a particularly long award season. I think it got. I mean, I've definitely seen more hostile awards campaigns, but I think by the end of it, it was like, nothing good is going to come out of this lasting any longer, you know, like, it was. Yeah, it was pretty much like that. Whether it was pitting one battle against sitters or whether it was like the. The Icarus flight of Timothee Chalamet. It seemed like we were, with the exception of Jesse Buckley, like, just going to kind of tear it apart if it went on any longer. That's the nature of the beast. But I do think if this had been February 1st, it seems like Charlamagne would have won.

[Andy Greenwald]

That does seem true. You rarely act. I don't often give a lot of credence to the stories of sudden surges or surprise upsets. That does seem to be the case. Marty supreme movie I loved, dropped completely off any Radar for, For winning things. And it does seem that the, it does weirdly seem like his, his blindside against ballet really hit him.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I, I thought that happened after he, after the voting.

[Andy Greenwald]

I never fully understand when the voting happens. I'll. I'll say this about the, the, the long, the long campaign. There is a small case to be made that was on display last night that the brutally long just road that these movies all go on together, international road of promotion and then baftas and then back and then all the different various guild awards and things that it has forged, almost perversely forged a sense of community and shared artistry among a diverse group of creatives than might otherwise exist. Like I did think. And obviously there are connections between people that we don't know about. Like people develop projects together. People, people are put in contact and have meetings, have lunches, have Sundance relationships.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Cause Trier, Coogler and Chloe Zhao or did Sundance stuff together.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, they're all Sundance bros. And there was a moment when Jesse Buckley won. I think the cameras caught Coogler coming over to give Chloe a hug. And that stuff's great. And the relation and you know, and I don't think it's corny, especially in the spirit of what Conan was saying, to want to see and want to cheer for not just Michael B. Jordan winning his first Oscar, but the moment afterwards that camera's caught later of him embracing Leo for a long time and Leo talking to him and like in a sense welcoming him in, deservedly to a very exclusive club. Yeah, I like that. I like the relationship between these films and that they can support each other and not do what their publicity teams are doing, which is tear each other down. That said, it's way too fucking long. And it becomes abstract to the point where it is about bloodsport and competition and almost completely separated from the films themselves, many of which left theaters, if they were in theaters at all, half a year ago.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that's the thing about this particular crop of movies, is that Sinners came out late last spring. One Battle After Another came out late last summer. Marty was in theaters Christmasy Christmas, but had been screening pretty widely for a while.

[Andy Greenwald]

What had the run up in the film festivals. It's tough.

[Chris Ryan]

It's tough to be. In some ways, I think it's a testament to Sinners in One battle after another that they were durable enough to texts to support conversation for that long. Because I think if they had been maybe more traditional Hollywood fare like your King Speech kind of thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Like a Green Book or Whatever. We would have just like atomized it. It just would. I, I, I, I think what happened last night and we can get into the actual awards now is a pretty decent and fair I It's one battle after another's night and won six awards.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

But I feel like the broadcast almost allowed it to be a, a co winner Night of Sinners in one battle. It did because I think, I think that's right. You mentioned Autumn Doral, Arkhipa's win and Coogler's win. In both of those they pulled the Tom Cruise everybody stand.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

Autumn had all the women in the audience stand. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

Coogler had everybody who worked on Sinner's Stand and I thought it was like a good recognition. I always remember that Pulp Fiction win for screenplay when Tarantino was like, I think this is going to be the only thing I win tonight. And I think Coogler used original screenplay to be like, this is probably it. So let me do the real big.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought that was great. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And I thought MBJ winning was really cool. It probably is not my favorite of the performances that were nominated. I think mine would probably be Leo or Wagger Mora.

[Andy Greenwald]

But

[Chris Ryan]

I also like Chalamet. I mean it was a really, really, really good category. I like Ethan Hawke a lot in Blue Moon. So I, I thought each film got its moments and it was almost like for all the like weird like who voted for what and the, the, what do they call it when the ballots, when you can ranked, Ranked choice ballot or like because people get second place votes or whatever.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right. Like New York City mayoral elections.

[Chris Ryan]

It almost seemed like preordained where they were like we're going to give sentiment value its moment.

[Andy Greenwald]

It shook out the ballot.

[Chris Ryan]

We're going to give Amy Madigan a moment. We're going to give sinners a couple of moments. But OBAA is going to kind of be.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that not to, I wouldn't, first of all, I wouldn't presume to be Sean Fantasy here. Did you see his costume work last night in the bathroom?

[Chris Ryan]

It was really impressive.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want more of that from him. He's been a leading man up till now. But I think it's time to have a character actor bent, I think.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, you think Sean should step back from the spotlight?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I just think he should get a little weirder. You know, I think, I think that's really good.

[Chris Ryan]

Sean's pretty weird.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know, but his, but his on the, he's.

[Chris Ryan]

But I mean like he didn't get

[Andy Greenwald]

invited to interview Steven Spielberg last week.

[Chris Ryan]

Because he's just a freak.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because he's a fucking freak show. Okay? That's not how Steven gets down. Despite his belief in extraterrestrial life on the planet. Right now, I don't presume to be even worthy of a sixth chair on the Big Picture, but I will say from my vantage point, a really remarkably good year for movies and a very strong year for the nominees. You mentioned the five best actor nominees, all of whom were deserving of recognition, if not an award. And Jesse Plemons didn't even make the cut. And that may have been my favorite performance of the year. Definitely top three going.

[Chris Ryan]

You joint.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Damn. He's unreal in that movie. He's a freak show. He's great. But if you look. If you think about Sinners, one battle after another, Secret agent. Sentimental value. I mean, I think these are. And Marty Supreme. I think these are, like, significant cinematic achievements that will last longer than this year or last longer than the King's Speech and particularly Sinners. And One Battle After Another. I know. One Battle after Another is a loose adaptation of Thomas Pynchon's Vineland.

[Chris Ryan]

Still reeling.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. I was waiting for it, too. I was. I was, like, doing this because you

[Chris Ryan]

have to assume, like, we've talked about this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. He got it right.

[Chris Ryan]

He knows.

[Andy Greenwald]

He knows him.

[Chris Ryan]

How? Pynchon.

[Andy Greenwald]

Nope. I was doing the Simpsons meme. Say it. Say the name. When he got up there, I knew he was gonna get it right. These movies are so. It is an adaptation, but I think they're both wildly original cinematic expressions and visions. And they are both very much of this moment and of this year, and I think will remind us of the time in which they were released in a way that a lot of the last 5, 6, 7, 10 winners won't. I think that's very. I think that's exciting. I think that's good for the medium. In the same way that whether or not he was our favorite performance of the year or whether or not you and I would ever fucking see Hamnet. I think I saw Hamnet. Look at you. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I did my work.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was gonna reach across the aisle there and be like, we stand in blockade of this. No, that's. Cause we have different opinions about dead kids in movies.

[Chris Ryan]

I love them.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know.

[Chris Ryan]

I know why I sound like Lockjaw. I love them. You like dead kids.

[Andy Greenwald]

We've all got our quirks. I think we're at war. We can express our differences in ways that don't shame each other. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

That would be such a fucking amazing move.

[Andy Greenwald]

Fight.

[Chris Ryan]

If you just started being like, I'm sorry, we're at war. That's why I didn't watch Hamnet.

[Andy Greenwald]

If I just started. This is my get out of everything free card for the next one to 16 years, I guess. I don't know. No Hamnet shade. I just didn't really. There was never a moment where I was, like, going to fire this up. What I was trying to say is Michael B. Jordan and Jesse Buckley are emerging stars and who are stars who have charisma and also acting chops. And that's also very cool to see. It is. I know this is sort of a fool's exercise to look back on past Oscar campaigns where, you know, we sit here the next day and everyone talks about what it means and the significance, and this was elevated over others. But it is kind of shocking to run back 10 years. Birdman won Best Picture. When's the last time you fired that up?

[Chris Ryan]

I have not.

[Andy Greenwald]

That has not made the rewatchables Spotlight.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, you know, I've.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. Spotlight and Moonlight.

[Chris Ryan]

Taking a couple runs around the newsroom with that one.

[Andy Greenwald]

The lights one for a couple years. And then we get into the shape of Water and Green Book.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that was. That's a real. Like, I was talking last night with somebody about, you know, I have not always been an Oscars fan.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

There's like a whole run there, which I'll. I'll describe as late period Eastwood superiority. You know, like the. The Million Dollar Baby kind of.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Run there, where I was just like, oh, the Oscars are on tonight. You know, like, it was at that level of like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you have other plans?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, just being like, it's Sunday night in New York City. Let's go.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's Selection Sunday. That's all I care about.

[Chris Ryan]

Delonte Weston, Tamir Nelson, St. Joe's team.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sorry, Clint.

[Chris Ryan]

So, I mean, it's not always been that, like. And. And Green Book and Shape of Water were definitely like.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, that's not even. We didn't even say Nomadland Coda and every. Everything everywhere.

[Chris Ryan]

Covid was in there. Yeah, not Covid. Covid didn't win any Oscars. But, I mean, there was the COVID Oscars. The Soderbergh Union Station Oscars.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, you don't think Covid won anything? The COVID shutout.

[Chris Ryan]

I think Covid arguably won the decade so far in terms of being a story.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right. Anyway. Yeah. So what other specific Ones should we talk about? Like, I wonder whether or not the.

[Chris Ryan]

The scale or the proportions of OBAA and Sinners would have felt differently if PET had been there. Because really, it was the editing, casting, O, B, A and pta, for the most part, speaking on behalf of the film it was in. You know, if they. If it had. If Sean Penn had been there, for better or for worse. Yeah, because he might have gone up there and been, like, incredibly gregarious and, like, you know, humble. And he's not. Not humble. Or he might have gotten up there

[Andy Greenwald]

just with a dart in his hand and just.

[Chris Ryan]

Or just been. Or been like, let. I don't know if you guys have heard there's war happening.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, you know, that's yet another thing he and I have in common, which

[Chris Ryan]

I think really only Bardem directly referenced.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, there was a lot of. I thought, clever and delicate dancing around it, and everyone knew what we were talking about without talking about it. I think the Sean Penn thing is tough because the Oscars rarely deliver merit at the right time. And it's, you know, the multiple winners. There are some that you can quibble with, but others, especially people like Sean Penn, who have won over decades. It's like you're not taking. Maybe you take away the one that Bill Murray should have won for Lost in Translation. The mystic river won. But otherwise, like the Lockjaw is one of the most incredible cinematic creations of the last however many years. He deserves awards and recognition for it. But it's a kind of a bummer that he won because he's won before, because he wasn't even there and you don't even get the speech. And because I had Stalin in my Oscar pool, just like Vladimir Zelinsk.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you have an Oscar pool?

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you want Stellan Skarsgrd to win?

[Andy Greenwald]

I did. Just because that's my favorite movie of the year and I think he's incredible. I should own up to the fact that I rare. I don't know if I've ever made predictions on this podcast, but I did sit here and say that I thought Sinners was gonna have a late surge and sweep, and that did not happen. It didn't. You know, I'm all about accountability. So, yeah, this Sean Penn thing was kind of a bummer, I guess, in that case. But otherwise. Oh, the casting I wanted to talk about only because it's funny that in its first year, and there's nothing wrong with the casting of one battle after another, it's the best picture of the year, according to Many, including the Academy, ergo, it was pretty well cast. But I feel like that award, the spirit of that award was invented for movies like Marty supreme and Secret Agent, both of whom were not.

[Chris Ryan]

I know what you mean. I will say that I do feel like when Bluto comes to the door in one battle after another, he's just like, are you cool? And Bluto's just like, yeah, like finding that kid. Like they found people that.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it's incredibly cast.

[Chris Ryan]

But I know what you mean where it's just like the faces in Marty supreme are like, how the hell did you do that?

[Andy Greenwald]

And so much of it. And obviously a lot of this comes from Josh Safdie himself. But like many, many if not most of the parts in that movie are played by non professional actors. And that ability to like identify someone who can deliver this specific brief on camera is really, really challenging. And Secret Agent, which we haven't talked much about, but I know we both really liked just stunning production design and how every single person looks unique and memorable and period. And you know, is as transporting as the scenery and the vibe. Just the way that they look, it's just incredible. But yeah, I always like when screenplay awards are kind of like shadow. They're the real best pictures. But this time it kind of. It just tracks.

[Chris Ryan]

So for screenplay you would have. Was Trier nominated for screenplay?

[Andy Greenwald]

I was for original, but I thought like you said, like he didn't adapt

[Chris Ryan]

that from World War II.

[Andy Greenwald]

What's that?

[Chris Ryan]

Was it adapted from World War II in some ways or from Aren't all

[Andy Greenwald]

screenplays in a way? Speaking of World War II, I did like when paradise star Sterling K. Brown did the Casablanca bit with Conan.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And was like, was that the Hitler one? That was good. Do you think it was a meta cruel joke commentary on the state of our business that the screenplay awards were given by Downey and Chris Evans. Just like we'll just find it. And posting their way through an absolutely putrid non joke bit promoting an Avengers movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Tough bits.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that was tough.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem. I think that you would never go wrong with Reverence if you just have people come out who are like, I am here because of great screenplays. You know, here are some of my favorites. Here are some of my favorite lines. Whatever, let's get into it. I just think that they over overcook the pie by 10 degrees and 10 minutes almost every time. And there's always gonna be some person who comes out and is like, what the fuck are we announcing tonight? And it's just like, dammit, dude, you're Robert Downey Jr. Like, you're pretty much Jack Nicholson.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You should be the closest thing we have. You should be giving out Best Picture.

[Andy Greenwald]

You should be the mayor of this.

[Chris Ryan]

But it doesn't seem like they can kind of rely on you to just be like, read the fucking prompter.

[Andy Greenwald]

For to some extent, he has been, I would say, encouraged. Sure. To do this and has been enriched beyond measure. And so it'd be hard to stop him now.

[Chris Ryan]

I was just. For a second there, I forgot, and I was like, what's that guy up to now? I was like, oh, yeah?

[Andy Greenwald]

Who? Bob?

[Chris Ryan]

Bobby Downs?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Dr. Doom, man. We would be remiss if we didn't talk about the fact that the. In many ways, the most memorable and the most crafted and the most intentional part of a show ostensibly celebrating the living art of cinema was the In Memoriam segment. And it was. Honestly, it was a sledgehammer. It was devastating, I thought, to watch, and pretty remarkable.

[Chris Ryan]

Babs.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I want to get to that. We got to get to that. I thought that the. The Rob Reiner thing was really, really moving and that was expected, but I couldn't believe the amount of people that showed up for him. Sure like to get all these people, some of whom, like John Cusack, doesn't do events. He doesn't come to Los Angeles, as far as I could tell. He just sort of hangs out in Chicago and has strong opinions about stuff. He. Which, by the way, sounds like a podcaster and a sick gig. Yeah, he flew out just to stand on stage for a second, you know, to be a part of this. I thought that was as much a testament to someone's ability to be a good person as well as a good artist as anything else you could ever see in an award show like this. I really liked the way it was designed. So it went from. Was it the Princess Bride music they were playing? There was music from a Rob Reiner movie that went into the images and the montage of people. And then they paused for Diane Keaton, but in a very classy way with Rachel McAdams. Also made it about Claudia Cardinale and Diane Ladd. Diane Ladd. And I thought that was incredibly moving. And it's just like, I know this is one of the tolls of getting older when people who are always there for you artistically and just like in the crowd of these events, they start showing up on the screen instead of in the seats. And that's just where we're headed as Humans. But it really hit hard this year. And then, of course, it had to, I think, end with Redford. And I thought it was. I guess I got the sense that he would have enjoyed having Babs do it. I think that a hallmark of Babs is. It's going to be about Babs.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I had that kind of break screeched a little bit for me in terms of, like, this beautiful swelling moment that the whole show is built around.

[Chris Ryan]

And then she sang.

[Andy Greenwald]

Speaking of beautiful screeching moments that brought the whole show to a halt. Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I gotta say, I don't really have an opinion about her music.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's. That's where you draw the line. Your entire career is having takes.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a musical performer I have zero relationship with.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I feel weird about that. You know what I mean? Like, there are transformers that I know more about than Barbara Streisand's discography.

[Andy Greenwald]

Name. Name your top three.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I've always been a Megatron guy. I just think it's a cool name. And I know.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you like his worldview is that you like his politics. It's a cool name.

[Chris Ryan]

Megatron is the fucking sickest name.

[Andy Greenwald]

It is. It is.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you know what? Here's another thing. Just a little fun side note. Among the many reasons why I'm never quitting Facebook is one of the stories that was given to me randomly, almost as if it was predicting. This exchange was. It was like, happy birthday to Marvel editor Bob Budiansky, who on this day in 1982, named Megatron, and then bestow

[Chris Ryan]

that onto the greatest wide receiver of my lifetime, Calvin Johnson.

[Andy Greenwald]

Correct. And received, I would imagine, nothing for it.

[Chris Ryan]

But, you know, you know, you were talking about, this is. This is not germane to the Oscars. You know how you're like, oh, and you start seeing people in memoriam that you've grown up with. I am now realizing that the Instagram montages of, like, you know who was a problem? Julio Jones. Yeah, those guys in their careers have happened while I've been watching football.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, their careers have happened since you moved to Los Angeles. Yeah, their careers have happened since you started the ringer.

[Chris Ryan]

No, like, and they also now are really. What's really big is showing early 21st century lineup announcements from tournament games. Oh, and so, like, dejuan Blair's pit team. And I'm like, damn, I witnessed the entirety of Dewan Blair's career. Like, in my 30s, we should.

[Andy Greenwald]

There should be, you know, like, you know, these. The projects where, like, they go to interview survivors, and they're like, we need to record your memories, you know, before this generation passes, so future generations will know what, like, you know, horrific war crimes were like. Like, someone should come to your house and be like, chris, Chris, tell us about Dewan Blair's.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think dejuan bit flair was a problem.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is a beautiful take because you actually have no problem here. Like, so, okay, so Megatron was number one, or should we move on?

[Chris Ryan]

Let's go back to Barbra Streisand and the beautiful tribute they paid to the people's lives and work.

[Andy Greenwald]

What about Shockwave? He had little cassettes that played in him.

[Chris Ryan]

He was cool. Was he racist?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, he had some problematic tweets. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

But you have to think about it. With a lot of these Transformers, I just couldn't remember.

[Chris Ryan]

Shockwave was like, hey, brother, like, let's listen to rap.

[Andy Greenwald]

Keep going, Keep going.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you know what I mean? Like, it was like an 80s cartoon radio Raheem thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, you have to understand that in the 80s, it was. The culture was different. You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

I was there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Toys. You. And Duan Blair wasn't even born yet, and you were there. Oh, I see what you mean. Like, the commercials and things were, like, trying, right? Yeah. I don't think that was racist that Shockwave was trying to. I think, see, again, this is the problem with the modern mindset with, like, these. These, like, Gen Z types. The problem with Shockwave is he was trying to enslave the human race on behalf of the Decepticons. I don't really. I'm sorry.

[Chris Ryan]

Because appropriation wasn't the problem.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not the asshole that he didn't acknowledge who originally owned the land he was standing on. Like, the problem was what he was actually doing in the moment.

[Chris Ryan]

All right, I'm gonna let you lay out of that.

[Andy Greenwald]

So he liked a few tweets.

[Chris Ryan]

K Pop, right? I'm very happy for K Pop. Demon Hunter success.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is like a hostage video. Is there a gun to your head?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I think if you're gonna basically hold the entire awards show hostage to see these. These folks perform.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Golden. Is that the name of the song?

[Andy Greenwald]

You know that's the name of the song.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then. And then you're. It's. It's. It's inevitable they're going to win the award for best song. To cut that dude off.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like. Like, you're. Is there anyone directing the show? Is there anyone who could just be like, don't start the band. Like, let this guy talk. There's seven people on stage. Yes, obviously she's gonna do the big

[Andy Greenwald]

speech, but, like, come on, it's. It was very, very cruel. It's also not their fault that the show was running long up to that point and they decided to just bring the hammer down on him.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that's when you start thinking, like, oh, well, they have time for all these other bits, but they don't have time for this. Yeah, I felt bad, but I don't have anything to add other than, like, it is a pretty remarkable success story for a movie that Sony was. It's not that it was ever problematic, but Sony wasn't sure what to do with it or what its upside was, so they offloaded it to Netflix and it became the biggest movie in the history of Netflix. And such a big movie and such a surprise that it took Netflix almost a full calendar year to get the deals done for there to be a sequel that just got announced last week, which means the sequel won't come out for years. Four, five years.

[Chris Ryan]

And then all those kids who've grown up on kickpop Datum Hunters, they're gonna be. They're gonna be in their 20s.

[Andy Greenwald]

God, and they will never even have heard of Dejuan Blair.

[Chris Ryan]

No, we'll do the work. We'll make sure they know you'll do

[Andy Greenwald]

the work for the next generation. That gives you a four or five year window to watch K Pop Demon Hunters.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true. That's true. Any other awards that you wanted to hit?

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you remember ever seeing a tie? I read this morning that it has happened.

[Chris Ryan]

It's happened a couple of times. I don't know why he didn't announce. And these are the other people that also.

[Andy Greenwald]

Drama. Drama.

[Chris Ryan]

For best short.

[Andy Greenwald]

I. I agree there wasn't a ton of drama there.

[Chris Ryan]

Can you imagine if they tried to pull that with like actor and they were like, but first Michael B. Jordan will. Will accept his award.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but then they should have kept the other people on screen the whole time, just watching the entire time. I think that would have been excellent.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else. But that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast from us, from vw, from the other outcasts out there. Take a Chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then because if you don't do it now, then when. Learn [e-mail] I guess the only other

[Andy Greenwald]

thing to discuss is Paul Thomas Anderson, a enormously important figure for our adult film going lives, didn't just get his flowers, he got the whole bouquet. Yeah, that was exciting. And also I sort of alluded to this a moment ago. Kind of rare to see. I was thinking about how David lynch got an honorary one. You think about how Tarantino got two screenplays, screenplay awards and obviously has directed actors into Oscars in the past. But for him to have this, I mean his career is still very much ongoing, but this career capping moment with such an unambiguous triumph, winning writing, directing and picture and being relatively in his prime to accept it all and reflect on it, I thought that was really special.

[Chris Ryan]

When he won adapted screenplay and got up on stage and he said, you make a guy work pretty hard to get one of these. I thought that that was in and of itself like a pretty good advertisement for what it means, you know, like you can be too cool for school and you can be like I'm not going or you could be like, it doesn't really matter who, who remembers these things. But I think in the moment and for the people who have put so much blood, sweat and tears into making films and sometimes not under like, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson's movies are often kind of supported by like the luminaries who decide to be in them. Yes, but like are not necessarily commercial gambits up until point movies. It was just pretty impressive. It was pretty cool. As a longtime fan of his work, it was pretty amazing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Movies and Oscars and movie makers and Oscars is a different relationship than something like TV creators and the Emmys, like Oscars have always had deservedly so, this patina of importance and reverence and history. And you can't really be too cool for school with that. Like all of these people in that room, no matter what type of movie they make, whether it's weapons or a short or the type of movies that were inspiring PTA to do the work that he does, they watch the Oscars and they revere movies that have won them in the past. And so to actually have that moment, I think it would be impossible for it not to feel like a dream or an incredible capstone. When he was up on stage for the second or third time, I was still thinking about Andy Jurgensen, who won Editing for One Battle after Another.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I thought his speech was really, really beautiful because he said his thank yous, then he thanked his aunt, who he said was an archivist at the academy and was the person who taught him about movies and showed him movies and gave him this library and this sense of history and artistry. And anytime you can do that, especially in an award show where you can connect time through people who have done the work in different ways and different, you know, but all in pursuit of the same kind of artistic joy and celebration, is really moving and meaningful.

[Chris Ryan]

He talked about one battle after another in a way today. And I'm sure he's done this in other interviews. And, you know, it's. I'm in no way telling him how to speak about his own work, but I was almost like, a little bit frustrated by the fact that he put a kind of like a little bit of a bow on the movie where he's like, this movie is about our failures as a generation to leave the world in a better place and the hope that the next generation. And I get that. And maybe, maybe this is somewhat colored by reading Vineland and taking a much different message from Vineland.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I kind of wanted him to be like, it's not up to me or it's not my responsibility to explain one battle after another to people so that they feel good about voting for it. Do you know what I mean?

[Andy Greenwald]

Totally.

[Chris Ryan]

And there's a case to be made that it's like, really the last 10 minutes of one battle after another that, like, really thread the needle on that. That idea of, like, it's American Girl. It's about. It's about her, it's about this.

[Andy Greenwald]

And he said that as well, which is not necessarily my takeaway. Yeah, I think that's a very smart point to make. And it goes back to our criticism of the long awards season, because one of the things that the long awards season does is it just leeches away the electricity and the energy and the enthusiasm and the chance of unpredictability and surprise. Not just about the awards, but about how the people who have been campaigning for them and giving speeches and thanking talk about them.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

It reduces them into, this is a movie about hope for the future, when, in fact, what I think makes it worthy of the Best Picture Oscar is how riotously messy it is at times and how parts of that movie that don't work. But then you just keep going to the next part and you're completely. You're being driven over that very, very bumpy Road by a guy who knows where he's going and you're excited to be in the car. I totally agree with that. I mean, I think the. That said, we joked about it a lot over the last few months when and if I saw a movie, to talk about it with you. But the hashtag girldad thing in a lot of these movies is relevant and interesting, that it is a lot of things. Filmmakers at a certain point in their life, wrestling with the world as it is and what it means to try and have hope for it, like what Conan said would try for the next generations. And that's. That's sentimental value. That's Marty Supreme. That's one battle after another. That actually is Secret Agent, too, even though it is very much about a specific moment in the past. But it has that same sort of generational trauma and what we owe to people and how we get going. Who, Wagner. Oh, in the movie. Yeah, that's true. That's why I didn't initially name it. I was deeply less interested or moved by it in terms of its hope for the future. I find all that stuff kind of interesting. And when you said what PTA talked about when he thought there was a chance, that was his only speech, the first one. So he talked about his kids.

[Chris Ryan]

Coogler was very aware that odds are this is the last one I win tonight. So I'm gonna go up and I'm gonna do the whole thing. I'm gonna say sorry for being away to my kids and all that stuff. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But PTA also thanked his kids, I believe, the first time he went up. And I thought Joachim Trier, you know, he ended with the Baldwin quote about, it's the responsibility of adults to care for all children, whether they know whether they root for Megatron or whether they root for dejuan Williams or whomever. Dejan Blair Dewan. Oh, sorry.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Come on. This is power forward for Pittsburgh.

[Andy Greenwald]

Was he the one who didn't have knee cartilage anymore? Who am I thinking of? The guy that the spurs drafted.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that was Duan Blair.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it was, too. I just want you to know that I saw his medicals and they scared me off. But shout out to RC Buford and Coach Pop for sitting past that and seeing what you saw. You know, it's your responsibility to parent these kids, too.

[Chris Ryan]

There's intangibles.

[Andy Greenwald]

There are.

[Chris Ryan]

You can't find them on a scan.

[Andy Greenwald]

There are. I mean, it was cool. And I would imagine, as a cinephile and rewatchables guy, that when PTA was like, here's the lineup from 1975 and it was One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, Barry Lyndon, Dog Day Afternoon, Jaws in Nashville. That's. We used to be a society. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And I also think that people will watch the movies from this year hopefully long into the future, including a bunch of movies that didn't get recognition from this year. And I do think that having 10 nominees is at once, I think deflating for the eight that are really have no shot. But it is also good to keep those movies in circulation to have other nominees. Maybe the front runners say like, boy, I'm such a huge fan of Secret Agent. Boy, I'm such a huge fan of. It was just an accident, whatever, you know what I mean? Talking about even F1 and just keeping those movies in circulation. This actually leads into my last question, which is, you have a big night for obaa, big night for sinners, a nice award for weapons. All Warner Brothers movies.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Don't believe David Ellison was in attendance.

[Andy Greenwald]

He was in Ukraine with John Penn,

[Chris Ryan]

but he was on the other side.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Damn. Fuck.

[Chris Ryan]

It's so fast though. You're not gonna be able to answer this because time will tell.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you walk out of here? See, we can make these original stories. They can be box office, successful box office movies regardless of the reporting about what their fucking budgets were. $200 million, $400 million, like whatever it is, these movies made in domestic box office is really good. Marty Supreme, I think made $100 million. Like these original films are finding an audience. There is research to suggest that a younger generation of people are enjoying going to the movies. Yes, I do think we are not exiting but in some kind of twilight of the over IP franchise period of storytelling in Hollywood. But do you, do you, do you leap out of this Oscars into a great unknown of like, is there going to be Hollywood in three years?

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

Or are you like, they should look at this and be like, yeah, more of that. I let Mike and Pam cook.

[Andy Greenwald]

Truly though, I mean, again, this is not. I'm not. We're not the people to like really do the deep forensic dive as to why Mike and Pam at Warner Brothers had this absolutely generational run over the course of this year when their jobs were very much in jeopardy. But you could look at the fact that they felt either empowered or desperate enough or just, you know, fearless enough to take. You see, they're not risky swings. They were considered swings. Do you know what I mean? Like the sinners, like Ryan Coogler Developed Sinners, from what I understand and took it to market and was like, here are my terms to make this movie with you. And Warner Brothers said we accept. Even though the terms were very filmmaker friendly. President breaking, he owns the print basically right into the copyright will revert to him. And that was a deal that they had to be willing to take. PTA is beloved by people who look exactly like us. And that hasn't always translated into enormous box office success. And this was always going to be the most expensive movie of his career. So the play for this movie had to be what happened last night. That was the path to get this movie to being not just a profitability but to making it, quote unquote worth it. Got it done. And the weapons thing is, you know, taking a swing on a cheaper movie, but someone who you believe in, who can deliver in a genre that tends to overperform at the box office. I think that the difference between that and what other studios do, which is just either blind IP chasing or making swings, but kind of thoughtless ones, like I don't even see the path or I don't even understand the road that I'm trying to put this movie on. Not all movies, especially now, this is always the case. But there isn't just we're so far removed from that. Well, we'll start it small in the Midwest and we'll slowly platform it out. Like every movie's gonna have a unique path towards finding its audience. But there are path and I think that's kind of exciting and hopeful and the scariest thing about it isn't that the people who are taking over Paramount, who are at Paramount, who have taken over Paramount, who might be taking over Warner Brothers there are going to be smart, thoughtful, film loving, film educated people working and making those decisions there as well. There's no question about that. But the company, the combined company is going to be so massively in debt that will they be able to shout out over everyone else saying the only, the only thing we can bank on as a path to profitability is Megatron. The movie is Megatron's. No Megatron at Hogwarts, the trilogy. You know what I mean? Like that. Yeah, that's trickier.

[Chris Ryan]

When Shockwave came to Hogwarts, introduced them all to rap.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but I think everybody knows Muggle technology doesn't work at Hogwarts. You couldn't bring a radio, it just wouldn't work, you know.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, it's like an EMP went off

[Andy Greenwald]

it's like an emp, but the M stands for magic.

[Chris Ryan]

Should we get to paradise then?

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you have any other questions or do you want to wait for next year?

[Chris Ryan]

I'll wait.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'll wait. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Why did you plan on talking about Harry Potter next year?

[Andy Greenwald]

I plan on talking about it today, but I guess you want to move along.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you Oscars.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you Oscars. Listen to Sean and Amanda talk about it too.

[Chris Ryan]

Absolutely. That part of today's episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. A lot of these films, what makes them so great is seeing a character who is driven to achieve what they want. And you can do the same. Grab the wheel, be the protagonist you've always wanted to be in your own life. Learn [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like analyzing plot twists, TaxAct guides you step by step to make sure you get your maximum refund. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts or let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. This episode is brought to you by Brooks Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Hotels.com Save youe Way is a new feature on Hotels.com and it's as simple as it sounds. When you book a trip as a Hotels.com member, you decide how to use your savings. Take the instant savings now or bank the savings as rewards for later. It's your call only at hotels.com, save youe Way is available to loyalty members in the US and UK and hotels with member prices. Other terms apply. See site for details. Let's talk a little bit about Paradise. I have to admit I thought that the newest episode of paradise went up tonight at 9pm Tonight being Monday. Tonight being Monday. So I am. I'm sorry for being slightly unprepared. Although. And you know what the problem with paradise is? Like you could think you have a handle on it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

God damn it if the last five minutes those episodes, they twisted up bit of a twist. So we're going to talk a little bit about episode four. Five. And I guess we could talk a little bit about six, because that's Gene, that's Jane. Let's talk a little bit about. And here's the thing about Paradise. If you're not, quote unquote, up to date, it's just really hard to talk about this show without spoiling certain things

[Andy Greenwald]

or sounding insane or sounding completely out of your mind.

[Chris Ryan]

So let's say up front, spoilers, and feel free to spoil Jane. I think it's okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's fine. Okay. Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

Spoilers through last night's episode of paradise, but we're gonna be focusing mostly on Spotlight.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hold on, I just have to. Kaya, are you okay if I spoil Jane? The sixth episode of the second season, Paradise. I think Shailene Woodley's character.

[Chris Ryan]

No, no, she's Annie.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I'm gonna spoil that then.

[Chris Ryan]

Clearly it's fine.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

We're gonna spoil that too, though.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just like to think about everyone else in the room.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers. Let's start with RIP Annie.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Shailene Woodley here for a bad time. Not a long time.

[Chris Ryan]

Kind of a little bit of an extended Kyle Chandler vacation on this show for folks who don't know what I'm referring to.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're spoiling lanterns.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I'm spoiling another show, Friday Night Lights, where a big time actor is like, oh, shit, Shailene Woodley's in this movie. Is it Shailene or Shailene?

[Andy Greenwald]

I've never said it out loud before. Shailene.

[Chris Ryan]

Shailene. That's what I thought.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is why we need Kya's voice in our ears.

[Chris Ryan]

Or you just could listen to me because I said Shailene.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's Barry Keoghan.

[Chris Ryan]

She shows up on this show and I'm like, cool. Maybe this is like what paradise will do is as it goes and gets bigger and bigger. It will have, you know, guest star of the season join and perhaps they will stay, stick around. Or perhaps not. Shaylin Woodley's on this show for two. Two episodes. Graceland, the first episode, and then this fourth, and then the fourth episode where she, you know, hangs out with Xavier.

[Andy Greenwald]

She's in the other episodes, but they are briefly, like at the end of two. The Xavier plot line in the Annie. I mean, we mean a showcase.

[Chris Ryan]

Showcase her story. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, I'll allow it.

[Chris Ryan]

They shot her out. They like, they. I'm sure they did that.

[Andy Greenwald]

And forgive me. It's just that we're at war. So I want to get all the details right. You know, it's just like, maybe at a less.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Partisan time, we could just gloss over details. What if.

[Chris Ryan]

Then my response would be like, maybe you as a podcaster.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Should support me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

As the secretary of podcasting.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that would be great.

[Andy Greenwald]

I like it.

[Chris Ryan]

Have you seen his press conferences?

[Andy Greenwald]

They're great.

[Chris Ryan]

He's out of his mind.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Who.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who could have predicted that? Some people just wilt under pressure, you know?

[Chris Ryan]

Was I saying she has. Is no longer with. With. With us because she dies at the end of the fourth episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But what a run. And I thought she brought something. How do I say this nicely? Sometimes when I'm watching Paradise, there are people on paradise where I'm like, I've never seen this person before. They seem like a TV actor.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then Shailene Woodley is, like, kind of more of a star. You know what I mean? Like, I thought she had a little bit more energy around her performance and a little bit more, like, charisma and a little bit more magnetic kind of vibes. But what did you think of, like, her storyline ending mid season?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that the show's commitment to its core principles of speed story and surprise are unmatched. And as we say every time we talk about this show, you cannot and should not compare this to a prestige HBO drama or even a prestige HBO procedural. This is even more so than the Pit. Like, this is an inheritor of a very specific strain of serialized broadcast storytelling. This is us, like Dan Fogelman. It's very similar DNA pitched in a different type of genre. And I can't help but maybe. And maybe, like the first season, I think we joked about it more, about how absolutely batshit a lot of the developments were in the way that they were revealed. I found the storytelling this season to be more emotionally consistent and engaging than the first season. I also realized, especially after the episode that just aired, I find the outside world just a more compelling storyline than the inside silo world. Whereas the first season, maybe I would have been shaking my head that 90 seconds of screen time establishing Annie's relationship with her mother and her backstory, Is that really enough for us to understand how she survives three plus years alone in Graceland and then gets pregnant and lives alone more and then goes outside? And then, you know, who doesn't go with her baby daddy to Colorado because of her trust issues, but then learns to trust as she dies in a diner? Like, that's an impossible calculation to Earn all of that story second season. I'm like, well, it's kind of just like minimalism at its finest. Which is a weird thing to say about a show that is so maximalist in its aims. It does everything so, so efficiently and so like, the show moves so fast. At no point until doing this podcast with you am I like, it's remarkable that Gary packed changes of clothes and also showers and hair and makeup in that bunker.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's not what we're doing here, people. So long way to say it works.

[Chris Ryan]

The way that the first season unfolded. And you're right about identifying the difference between what it was like in the bunker versus what it's like outside of the bunker. There was like a Truman show element of unreality, especially that first episode. But a lot of it was the Sinatra character's elliptical way of talking because they were trying to hold off on revealing, like, who she was, what's going on in the bunker, and then also what had happened outside of the bunker and why people are the way they are. And that was a kind of almost the entire season long gambit of like, I don't think when you finally get to the episode that really turned us onto the show, which is seven, which was the real end of the world episode, that's when you find out about the EMP and the nukes and all the stuff that happened.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also. We should have led with this. I honestly don't retain any information. I watch every show just like a happy baby. Seeing Teletubbies for the first time. Like, this is the only show just

[Chris Ryan]

because there's a war on or just because

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm glad you're finally becoming aware of it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's not just business as usual for you. No. This is the only show that I religiously watch the recap without skipping.

[Chris Ryan]

Cause you're like, oh, right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

But also, Wildcat hit that emp. They were like, don't do it.

[Andy Greenwald]

The card. But I also. I know this seems counterintuitive, but, like, I kind of celebrate that. Sure. That I just. Okay, sure. Now we're zagging. Let's go.

[Chris Ryan]

Short term memory is like, what?

[Andy Greenwald]

Truer than you realize the way that

[Chris Ryan]

revelations have kind of been doled out over the course of this season. Not only because we've watched now, like multiple characters go through the last day on Earth Society. Last day of society multiple times now. I think also take the mailman episode, which was the last week's episode, which is kind of paradise. Maybe not at its best, but at Its most paradise in so much as it introduces a very kind seeming character. You are like, okay, so this is gonna be a new member of the kind of good guy gang to the extent that there is one.

[Andy Greenwald]

And do you recognize who this actor is?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Andy Greenwald]

Playing Gary Cameron Britton, who we adored Mindhunter playing Kemp. What's the name? Ed Kemper in Mindhunter. Wow, that's sick.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Good for him.

[Chris Ryan]

He's incredibly good actor. And the entire time you're like, this guy has like a sweetness to him that's really, really nice.

[Andy Greenwald]

Gentle.

[Chris Ryan]

As it gets further into the episode, you're like, that's interesting. And it's interesting that he's like, I'm in love with Terry, but like, really actually in love with her. Not just like, I love her. From AF as you get to the final twist, which is not that Ennis has betrayed everybody, but that the mailman isn't Gary. The mailman has in fact kind of lost it at the end y and killed Ennis. And maybe Terry is not with the okra seed coffee drinking militia or that

[Andy Greenwald]

she wasn't taken by them. Yeah, it's a good twist.

[Chris Ryan]

And it, it's, it's nice to have it compact within the episode rather than be like in two or three episodes. The season twist is that the mailman is bad.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's funny. Well, I don't know if it's funny. It's fun, I think to have been watching television a certain way long enough to see the game change in the same way that an offensive or like Vic Fangio is just like, ah, now I need to. Now this is what offenses are doing because they're highlighting inefficiencies. And now I must change what I do to counteract it. And the example we always use for years in the podcast, if you're drinking, if this is a drinking game, drink. Is John Landgraf at FX being like, ah, the miniseries. People have given up on that. And then he leaned into that world and it worked out really well for them. One of the things about the kind of the slowing down of television over the last 20 years, the, you know, we can tell every part of every story and we can really drill into these people's lives. Has been a kind of. It's not we've become less vigilant watchers. It's that we've been told that sometimes now there is room for moments in scenes that aren't crucial building blocks of plot that you could have a moment that could be more about how the characters respond to reflect on it and grow. The example I'm talking about is in episode five when Garry misreads the moment. He's built a radio so Terry could reach out, could try to contact Xavier. And he goes in for a kiss and she's like, I can't. I know an old school TV watcher watching Bang Bang Week to week 22 episodes is like, that's the most important thing that this scene is telling us. This guy doesn't get it. This guy wants something he's never going to get. My dumbass HBO brain is just like, oh, there's nuance to this. He wanted something, but he could express something else. When in fact there are no wasted moments in paradise because it moves too fucking fast.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what I'm saying. It's like every single thing that happens in paradise is actually worth paying attention to. Yes or none at all. And you'll just find out and like, it's. You can watch it in two different ways. When you go back and look at the mailman episode, in fact, the reason why you didn't think that that was an inappropriate and red flag moment for that guy is because Ennis is set up as the bad version of Gary.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

So the guy in the Georgia Tech hat who's bossing everybody around and has been like waiting all his life for the prepper moment and doesn't want anyone

[Andy Greenwald]

to leave and staring at one of the women that he brought into the bunker. Exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

Gary is saying that enemy. This is in fact what Gary is. He doesn't want people to leave. He wants to be with Terry. He's never had. He doesn't have anyone that he would have saved before then. And in fact now in retrospect, if I was like, damn, Gary and Terry really got along that way. They did not. I don't know that Terry would characterize Gary as her best friend and her partner for the last five years.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

She might have just been like, that was a dude I was in a bunker with.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's cold. I mean, again, and last week, this is not surprising. There was a little bit of a drive by on Last of Us. And I think what I was trying to express that I appreciated about paradise in the moments it has, which are not very many, towards sketching out different ways of dealing with an apocalypse. I'm here for one where people come together and make it work. That is also a zag from what we've seen.

[Chris Ryan]

For instead of having skin eating, inevitable breakdown of everything.

[Andy Greenwald]

That said, the ability of the show or maybe the willingness of the show or is it the necessity of the show to yada yada, Just giant swaths of potentially interesting material is remarkable and feels different now. The other thing about a Dan Fogelman show is that the past is never past. Like, they can always revisit, remind. I mean, James Marsden is still kicking around in the show, and his character dies in the pilot, I believe. So there's always stuff to unpack. That was also the essential backbone of this is us. We're just jumping through time, and we understand that some characters are no longer with us. But there's still history to learn from there. We're all gonna be in this room. The world has ended for three weeks. And then it's just like, we're out now we've got chickens. I'm like. I just feel like a couple. Probably a couple more speed bumps than we realize. Including the fact that they've brought in a young child who remarkably doesn't age.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Bean, that is. Well, it's only been three weeks.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but then it's three years.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, right, right. Well, we haven't seen what Bean looks like. We just see that Bean saw.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but that was a. Yeah, that wasn't three years ago. Okay. Unless they recast him.

[Chris Ryan]

Is there any Gary. Is there any Gary Bean. Terry stuff in the Jane episode?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, well, I believe we. See, I could be wrong. Cause I did watch the movie back to back. But I believe that when Garry turns on Ennis. Ennis.

[Chris Ryan]

Bean sees him.

[Andy Greenwald]

Bean sees him.

[Chris Ryan]

That's at the end of the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but that is in essentially the present moment. That's like two weeks before Xavier arrives, and Bean is still. Now, maybe what the show is actually telling us, that a three years of canned beans does not support.

[Chris Ryan]

It's the fountain of youth bone growth.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what I mean? Maybe it is a subtle dig at a vegan diet. Maybe that's what it's saying. I don't know. But that was a tough one to sort of plot around. Everyone just looks amazing after their three years in the bunker, just ready to start new lives. And it's like, nobody seems that bummed out about the end of civilization. I mean, if you were in the bunker and you could tell stories about the NCAA tournaments of the early 2000s, that would get me through the first.

[Chris Ryan]

That was when Kansas had Keith Langford.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, what if. What if the other version of paradise is like, you invite the six people who can help restart society, and you have your nurse and a mechanic, and then, you know, they were getting loose

[Chris Ryan]

at the end it was just like, she likes mushrooms. Why don't you come too?

[Andy Greenwald]

She likes mushrooms.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then you also bring in the guy that has, like, raging sleep apnea into the small room. Like, is that the moment when you're like, there is one flaw in my plan. That's a tight space, man. But I guess there was a shower.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm actually curious. I'm gonna ask you, because honestly, Jane's a little bit of a mystery to me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

What motivates her? What animates her? What's her trauma?

[Andy Greenwald]

The one thing that I am, the one thing I'm curious about, the beauty of the show and the reason why we enjoy covering it is it could literally do anything at any moment. And I think that's. Well, that's crazy. That's fun. And I. I definitely like the show more this season. And thinking about it, it's almost entirely because of the Annie and Xavier out in the world stuff. I think that's been more emotionally compelling, it's more interesting, it's more exciting. And like I was saying, it presents just a different way to tell an apocalyptic story. And at this point, that's as refreshing as anything else.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would say that the episode that you have yet to see is the weakest of the season so far, in my opinion, because Jane, no disrespect towards the actress who we should shout out, Nicole Bryden Bloom. If you're going to cast a willowy 30 year old as a savage, unhinged killer, she's doing a pretty good job. It's a tough beat, but she's handling it well.

[Chris Ryan]

And she shot Sinatra in the chest at the end of the first season.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

But now still works for Sinatra.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sinatra knows. Sorry, I just spoiled the episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, right. She was like, sinatra, do you remember?

[Andy Greenwald]

And she does remember.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

She tells her, I remember. But she's like, that's why I'm keeping you close, because you shot me.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what the secret to arcs is.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. But all this is to say the excesses of season one, which was just twist on top of twist on top of twist that the goofy young Secret Service agent who you're overlooking, she just loves Nintendo, actually is an unhinged psychopath responsible for much of the bloodshed. That was a good TV twist, but not a story. I really needed a lot of this is US level trauma unpacking about.

[Chris Ryan]

Do we have her like, before we do.

[Andy Greenwald]

We have her from birth. And not just her from birth and her backstory with her difficult mother and her Childhood. And then how she once wanted to help her mentor get a promotion so she cut her boss's rival's dick off and delivered it to her in a bag. Do you want to take a moment and watch that scene on who.

[Chris Ryan]

What was her mentor doing? Was she also a killer or was

[Andy Greenwald]

she like, she's in like special services, you know, she's trained, you know the one. The show has interest in seemingly everything and can seemingly do anything it wants. And one thing that I am less interested in in this second season is the subtle suggestion that there might be some deeper power connecting these people. That it's not just the magic of television, that everyone can intersect emotionally and plot wise at the right moments. And this is the scenes of like Xavier's visions of link. Who is the new character?

[Chris Ryan]

Thomas Doherty.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Who you know, as far as we know, they've never met and they've never been in the same room, but maybe this is. And it's even referred to. He's like, I keep having these dreams

[Chris Ryan]

and they're also having the seizures with the nosebleeds.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it's as if there is something, something more metaphysical happening.

[Chris Ryan]

Do I'm telling you what I think that is or what the Internet thinks that is?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, before you do, let me just say that the Jane episode begins with someone at like a best buy in 1997 getting a lot of emails and messages saying a killer will be born at 12 o whatever am you must deliver a message to this killer. And this guy then goes to the hospital and yells at baby Jane that you are a killer, but you can change. And the mom then hates her child because she's like, you're a killer, you're trouble. And so then Jane's just like, I'm a killer, I'm trouble.

[Chris Ryan]

I think I just want you to recap this show for me for the rest of the season.

[Andy Greenwald]

So tell me your theory.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe it's not individually, like I did not. I'm not the inventor of this. Maybe I am columbusing this. That Alex and the other Sinatra shooter drop is like a time machine of some kind that would track with the lost tendencies of this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm trying to be more accountable in this wartime, but also more. I gotta stand by what I say. And if I admire the show for being willing to do or try anything, I can't roll my eyes at that. Okay, you gotta go for it. But I thought you would actually have turned slightly on the show once it became Lone Xavier and Cub.

[Chris Ryan]

There's too many babies in this situation, too many babies. I mean, Bean's not a baby, but we got too many kids in the mix.

[Andy Greenwald]

And despite the foregrounding for that baby's

[Chris Ryan]

baby, he made a promise.

[Andy Greenwald]

And also the name of the baby is Annie's baby. But also the foregrounding of when he's like, well, babies are resilient. I'm like, maybe, you know, I've been a major player, a key player or a good supporting actor and raised 49%

[Chris Ryan]

shareholder, two of them.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I think that they were pretty strong and healthy, but I don't think I would have gone on a road trip on horseback from Graceland to the greater Atlanta metro area.

[Chris Ryan]

But if there was no devices, maybe that would be something you would do, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, you mean if I couldn't play subway surfers, I would take a baby on a road trip just to feel alive? What do you mean no devices?

[Chris Ryan]

See the country.

[Andy Greenwald]

The one thing that. Here's the other thing that I'm tracking that is kind of a bummer is like the hashtag girldadstuffinmovies that we were talking about. That really works for me. The had a baby once and then joined a TV writers room vibe from paradise where so much of everyone's actions and then explanations for the actions involved Xavier or another character being like, the moment you become a father is the moment you realize who in your life is going to betray you when an EMP goes off in a post apocalyptic event. You know what I mean? Like that whole thing where he's just like, I trusted this woman with the baby because Terry wouldn't let me read stories to my children. And she didn't let you do it either, Gary, like it's a little bit Park Slope parents message board for me. It is.

[Chris Ryan]

There's some next door qualities to it.

[Andy Greenwald]

And if it's rubbing me the wrong way, I can only imagine that, honestly,

[Chris Ryan]

I did not pick up on that. But that just goes to show you my childless home.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, because you're imagining a world where there's a time machine that can just make you forget all the parts of paradise you don't like.

[Chris Ryan]

We can wrap it up there. Okay, thanks to Kai and Kaya, we'll be back on Thursday where we will talk about the Pit and take a little spin around the Sheridan universe, which has come back with two shows, one on cbs, one on Paramount, plus.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, but do I have to watch both of them once again?

[Chris Ryan]

No, you don't have to watch Marshalls.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think you'd really understand what Casey's going through. Anyway, thanks for listening.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I say when we talk about the state of hbo.

[Chris Ryan]

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