Oscars Recap, ‘White Lotus’ S3E3, and ‘Severance’ S2E7

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Watch (The Ringer)

Episode: Oscars Recap, ‘White Lotus’ S3E3, and ‘Severance’ S2E7
Date: March 3, 2025
Hosts: Andy Greenwald & Chris Ryan

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Watch features Andy Greenwald returning from abroad, joining Chris Ryan for a wide-ranging discussion covering:

• A recap and analysis of Hollywood’s biggest night, the Oscars
• A breakdown of White Lotus Season 3 Episode 3
• An in-depth look at Severance Season 2 Episode 7
  The conversation stays true to the pair’s signature blend of sharp cultural insight, self-deprecating humor, and friendly banter.

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Oscars 2025: Recap & Analysis

(Conversation begins ~03:25)

General Takeaways & Show Vibe

• Chris and Andy reflect on the Oscars telecast as television more than ceremony.
• Andy, who hadn't seen most nominees, admits he represents the average viewer this year more than usual.
  • “This is the first time I've ever been the late... I have seen three of the ten nominated: Conclave, Brutalist, and Dune Two.” (05:52, Andy)
  • Chris jokes that Andy is “more representative of the larger audience than we’d like to admit.” (05:16, Chris)

Tone and Set Design Critique

• Andy felt the ceremony’s physical set and atmosphere carried a “very, very, very Third Reichi” vibe, which he found overly formal and too intense. (07:49)
• “Everything felt so overly overwrought and formal. It didn’t match with the scrappy, ‘just come watch movies’ vibe.” (08:07, Andy)
• Instead of showbiz self-congratulation, there was humility—artists pleaded for sustaining theaters and a communal moviegoing experience amidst industry/gigacity instability. (12:50, Chris)

Memorable Moments

• Conan O’Brien’s presence: “I thought Conan was good... His jokes mostly landed, he had a good winning spirit, and I loved the blue tuxedo.” (07:00, Andy)
• Cinema Streams parody: The set as “a thousand smartphones stitched together” got laughs. (07:24, Andy)
• Emotional In Memoriam acknowledged as “very overwrought” with odd choral music. (07:55, Andy and Chris)

Notable Speeches & Historic Wins

• Sean Baker’s “charm and authenticity” invigorated the show—he “won more Oscars than Steven Spielberg.” (09:18, Chris / 08:58, Andy)
• Chris: “It is crazy. I think he has more Oscars now than Steven Spielberg.”
• Baker won for editing, directing, writing, and producing Anora.

Audience Experience & Winning Films

• Andy hadn’t seen Anora, though he tried (“...realized it would just be Naked Ladies...did a politeness check on the airplane...but stopped it. Doesn’t feel awesome.” (10:33, Andy)
• Conversation around the divide between films with real Oscar chances versus "big movies that had no shot...Wicked and Dune...outsiders like Conclave." (14:10, Chris)
• “Only a certain number of the nominees were relevant on the awards campaign. Most...were not going to win anything. And that was very clear from the beginning.” (15:26, Andy)

On Oscar Industry Trends

• Studios spent big on Dune 2 and Wicked, but “no real chance at major awards; the entire middle of an industry has been hollowed out.” (16:18, Andy)
• Chris reflects how cycles, COVID, and strikes contributed to fewer movie trailers and industry “entropy.” (11:22, Chris)

Notable Quotes

• On the No Other Land victory and Ukraine moment:
  • “Who spoke first, who spoke second...was beautifully choreographed and very effective in the moment.” (14:10, Andy)
• On Amazon/James Bond: “The weird juxtaposition of celebrating James Bond that had just been basically like taken over by Amazon while also making Amazon jokes.” (12:50, Chris)
• On Oscar humility: “It definitely seemed to be a show with a little bit more of a raised middle finger this year...not an overtly political or grandstandy night.” (13:51, Chris)

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Deep Dive: White Lotus Season 3, Episode 3

(Begins ~28:01)

Early Season Pacing & Character Threads

• Both agree the season has been “a slow but incredibly pleasant start,” with narrative momentum picking up at the end of episode three. (28:31, Chris)
• Chris: “A couple of balls are rolling downhill now, narrative-wise. I'm here for the hang...But I do think the information we got...could have been in an episode and a half.” (28:31, Chris)
• Andy: “Haven’t been bored once, but three hours have elapsed and no variation in conflicts since the pilot.” (29:23, Andy)
• The Ratliff family’s narrative inertia noted; character journeys playing out with “no variation in conflict.” (29:43, Andy)

Thematic Motifs & Character Performances

• Chris points out themes of “trying to pay to heal” and performative wellness. (31:08, Chris)
• Andy draws attention to “capitalist malaise”—rich men “taking no pleasure in anything, living life on defense.” (33:21, Andy)
• Walton Goggins’ performance is “God tier as always.” (33:06, Andy)
• Standout scene: the “Trump conversation between Jacqueline, Kate, and Lori” is called one of the best in the series.
  • “The way she nailed, ‘I’m an Independent’ was so good.” (36:25, Chris)
• Friendship fault lines: Female trio “are best friends but kind of loathe each other; don’t want to know or don’t like what they discover.” (34:32, Andy)

Overlap & Interconnectedness Across Seasons

• Mike White’s “entertaining, not overbearing” approach to overlapping characters (Belinda, Greg/Gary) is lauded—“it’s icing, not the cake.” (43:39, Andy)
• “Maybe at some point there will be some grand connected narrative...but for now, the overlaps are fun.” (45:30, Andy)

Quips & Notable Banter

• Posture jokes, White Lotus boat plot (“things go really well when characters go on boats”), and a running bar/bat mitzvah anecdote about “short kings” and slow dances to ‘Stairway to Heaven’. (32:12–42:00)
• Return of the “CR Bucks” crypto bit and the idea of a “Chris, Goggins, and Drake” trinity on the mythical currency. (40:37, Chris & Andy)

---

In-Depth: Severance Season 2, Episode 7

(Begins ~47:43)

Authorship and Direction

• Chris opens by highlighting Jessica Lee Gagné’s “virtuoso” direction and cinematography in the episode, especially the practical, non-CGI visual effects.
  • “One of the more virtuoso directorial performances you will see...in the last couple of years.” (49:43, Chris)
  • Andy: “The star of the show is the camera...there is a consistent visual language...a real inspiration.” (50:23, Andy)
  • “A celebration for that kind of work...the possibility and the potential of that kind of work on the small screen.” (54:23, Andy)

Visual & Thematic Influences

• Connection drawn to Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind: “One of the most influential films of the 21st century...the idea you could play within your own mind.” (54:34, Chris)
• Stiller’s “clinical, precise” direction is contrasted with Michel Gondry’s “messy, handmade” filmmaking. (56:32, Andy)
• Chris and Andy riff on how Severance is about not just delving into but actively severing memory, trauma, and loss.

Narrative Structure and Emotional Backfilling

• Both scrutinize the episode's heavy narrative lift: revealing Mark and Gemma’s history for the first time, requiring Adam Scott/Dichen Lachman to evoke a deep relationship in only a few pages of script.
  • “Can you retroactively inject a relationship with enough emotional juice to earn what you’re going to do with them? I think for the most part, they succeeded.” (66:05–66:48, Andy)
• Andy, self-professedly uninvested emotionally in Severance, nonetheless praises the acting and aesthetic achievement.
• Chris notes emotional complexity:
  • “The entire time we’re watching this very heartbreaking story of a relationship, I was also thinking about the fact that this dude is in love with Heli...One soul can love two people.” (68:28, Chris)

Critiques & Standout Moments

• Both hosts disliked the Devin–Rigabi scene (“neither of you are making any sense in this scene...just a very disorienting scene.” (63:40, Chris))
• Chris wanted the show to “go up a level” and show who is really in charge of Lumen, asking, “Who is the governor of the state where Lumen is? Does anybody give a shit?” (62:12, Chris)
• Warmly-lit past scenes (“a breath of fresh air”), clarifying that the “grey” world isn’t literal reality but a stylistic choice. (61:01, Chris/Andy)
• Andy: “I don’t understand the playing field of the game we’re playing—the parameters of the stadium...I need that stuff to ground myself.” (61:52, Andy)

---

Notable Quotes

On Oscars Telecast:

• “Sean Baker is an unnaturally charismatic and talented and funny guy...he has more Oscars now than Steven Spielberg.” (09:18, Chris)
• “Everything felt so overwrought and formal...didn't match with the sort of scrappy, we’re kind of the independent spirit now.” (08:07, Andy)

On White Lotus:

• “Walton Goggins is doing God tier work as always.” (33:06, Andy)
• “The Trump conversation...the way she nailed ‘I’m an Independent’ was so good.” (36:25, Chris)

On Severance:

• “The star of the show is the camera...there is a consistent visual language that is really nice.” (50:23, Andy)
• “Eternal Sunshine...I feel like the way Gondry brought that to life...is a huge influence on this show.” (54:34, Chris)
• “I don’t understand the playing field of the game we’re playing...I need that stuff to ground myself.” (61:52, Andy)

On Industry Trends:

• “The entire middle of an industry has been hollowed out. The big studios are proud...then they go to these awards and they win the technical awards and they sit there being like, ‘what do we have to do?’” (16:18, Andy)

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Segment Timestamps (Approximate)

• 01:16 – 28:00 | Oscars Recap & Analysis
• 28:01 – 47:43 | White Lotus S3E3 Breakdown
• 47:43 – 74:07 | Severance S2E7 Deep Dive

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Final Thoughts

Chris and Andy maintain their familiar, candid dynamic as they oscillate between critical analysis and personal anecdotes (midnight tortilla chips, bar mitzvahs, and posture anxiety). The discussions are framed with humility—especially regarding the Oscars—and keen to highlight the evolving power dynamics in film and TV, the achievements (and failings) of contemporary storytelling, and the subtle threads connecting ambitious shows like White Lotus and Severance. Their playful, occasionally digressive energy ensures the podcast remains entertaining and illuminating throughout.

Transcript

[Chris Ryan]

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[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Chris Ryan]

I need sports to have to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio with his dog eared copy of All Quiet on the Western. Blunt. It's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Good to be back. Look at this energy level.

[Chris Ryan]

Hollywood's biggest night is in fact whatever day you come through. Lax fan. You know what I'm saying?

[Andy Greenwald]

Should we. First of all, thank you. Nice to see you. Should I talk about the funniest thing that I should have done which is I did return.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

This weekend.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

From a fortnight abroad. And as I was exiting I did notice one of the ride drive not Uber drivers like the limo drivers with the names. Was the person there to pick up the esteemed French director Jacques Odillard for his time at the office.

[Chris Ryan]

But you guys could have rapped about the last episode of the Bureau if you jumped in the car with him.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or what if they cut like if I had just gone up to him and said bonjour, I could have been at the Oscars.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I think they would have. You have the exact same hairstyle as Odard.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think Well, I would have worn a hat like he did. I think the level of interest Hollywood showed in Emilia Perez would have meant that I could have just sailed through Greenwald.

[Chris Ryan]

Before we get started, we're going to talk about the Oscars. We're going to talk about severance, we're going to talk about White Lotus. We might do a little 1,000 blows. I. You're cagey. Chatted a little bit about it with Manzoukas.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I'm not cagey about anything that's non canon. I know if we talk about things.

[Chris Ryan]

If you were not there, it didn't happen. I understand.

[Andy Greenwald]

But similarly, when I talk about things when you're not on the show, I don't care. I know. So sorry.

[Chris Ryan]

Housekeeping. You're watching us. If you're watching us, you may be doing it on YouTube at Ringer Dash TV. You can also do it on Spotify now, where you listen to our show. And you can also just watch it right there on the player on Spotify. Please follow us on Instagram @thewatchpod and email [e-mail] do you watch yourself on Spotify? Yeah, I mean, just to do a tech check, keep everybody here in line, make sure performance is at the levels that I'm accustomed to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Whoa.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

Octane, baby. Yeah. Cool. Welcome back.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

From one NATO country to another.

[Andy Greenwald]

For now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Let's talk about the Oscars. Unless you want to do some opening, kind of like just.

[Andy Greenwald]

You want to get loose?

[Chris Ryan]

You want to talk to me about England?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I mean, I just want to say I, I may. I am a little loose because I. I was just saying to Kaya that like, flying there, I'm great.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't understand this.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm a pro on going there.

[Chris Ryan]

I cannot go east.

[Andy Greenwald]

I coming west.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm like, who wants to? Let's play two.

[Andy Greenwald]

God, that's funny. That's the same advice that the Third Reich got, you know, that is funny. It's true.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

They didn't listen, thankfully. Yeah, I can go east, no problem. I get there, hang out, have dinner, wake up, I'm fine.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't understand.

[Andy Greenwald]

I come back here, I am destroyed.

[Chris Ryan]

You don't wake up at 1am and just start like. And you're not like shocked awake there? Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow.

[Andy Greenwald]

Here. Yes. Yeah. So you're seeing me. I think that if we had done this pod, I think my sweet spot probably would have been around 4:45 this morning. I think I was pretty locked in.

[Chris Ryan]

That's where all the severance takes are coming from.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was up. Here's the way the brain works at that hour. Because the thing is, you're just like. Your body does become accustomed to taking coffee at a certain point. And so for me, that point is midnight LA time, when I'm like, boy, I really need that first coffee. So when I did wake up at four four, four, I was having really, really strong thoughts about, well, that television. I really thought I could have podcasted, but I was also like, I'm a bit peckish. And then I was like, you know what would be a good idea right now? Crack that bag of tortilla chips.

[Chris Ryan]

You had tortilla chips at 4 in the morning?

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't. I'm just trying to explain to you what's going on in here.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. All right, well, we're going to take care of you. We're going to treat you gently, we're going to teach you with kid gloves.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure. No, I could bare knuckle like thousand blows.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, let's talk a little bit about the Oscars. Obviously, Sean and Amanda have done the Lord's work.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sean was dressed like he was doing the Lord's work. That was amazing.

[Chris Ryan]

I still had truly the greatest day in the anora verse. Sean and Amanda did a pre show, they did a post show. You should definitely be listening to them. When it comes to actually analyzing what this all means, what it means for the Oscars, like how we got here in terms of this awards race and just their wonderful thoughts on the films themselves, I wanted to hear from you as someone who I think, sadly, to be honest, is probably more representative of the larger audience than we'd like to admit.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is the first time I've ever been the late, which is that you.

[Chris Ryan]

Have not either had a chance or the opportunity or the desire to see a lot of the films that have been nominated.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right? That's correct.

[Chris Ryan]

So you probably can't weigh in too strongly outside of like, personal preference, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

What?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, nobody's gonna stop you. You know, it's a free country.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but you are, you are right. I think that I have seen three.

[Chris Ryan]

Of the ten nominated Conclave, Brutalist and Dune two.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, that's right. And Wicked Kids saw it without me, then they keep watching it without me, which is fine, by the way. I'm cool with it. My kids were so mad that Ariana got robbed, in their opinion, like, really upset at all.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, if they were listening to the big picture, they would have known what was happening, what was coming.

[Andy Greenwald]

I Was like, guys, Gamora won. They were like, no, no, Anora won. I'm like, no, no, guys, lion is.

[Chris Ryan]

Joe won.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wait, by the way, that's right there, the Gamora move. Like we could, you know, like. But it's an aura. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm pitching like that. That's good.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, she's just. She's just a.

[Andy Greenwald]

A girl, you know, but she's green.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

But it's not wicked. See, everything's working for me. Yeah, I agree with you.

[Chris Ryan]

I want to ask you, though, what you thought of it as a piece of television.

[Andy Greenwald]

As a piece of television. It was a little perplexing. There were very entertaining moments. I thought Conan was good. I'm happy to see him having a good time and laughing and I thought his jokes mostly landed and he had a good winning spirit. And I loved the blue tuxedo.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have to say that was really sharp. I also really liked the cinema streams bit. Yeah, I thought that was very good.

[Chris Ryan]

We bring you this salty snack. Yeah, that was good.

[Andy Greenwald]

What did they say the screen was? A thousand smartphones stitched together. Thought that was good. I thought what was particularly. Well, there are a couple of very strange things. Like there are every Oscars. One was that the set and kind of vibe was very, very, very Third Reichi to make the second reference.

[Chris Ryan]

Really.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, I thought it was very, very intense and serious looking and similarly like the In Memoriam segment with those.

[Chris Ryan]

The music was weird for that. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Choral numbers. And the whole thing felt very. I'm not here's. I'm not saying that the Oscar should ever be business casual, despite what Adam Sandler was wearing. It's just that it felt. Everything felt so overly overwrought and formal. It didn't match with the sort of scrappy. I guess we're kind of the independent spirit now, you know, and that we kind of want people just please come watch movies in the same way that TV the Emmys used to be like, well, we're not movies, but we're trying here. Like, that used to be the vibe of a lot of Emmy shows. So I thought that that overall sense of, like, portentousness felt a little at odds with what could have been a little bit the set.

[Chris Ryan]

The physical set.

[Andy Greenwald]

The physical set and the staging of a lot of it. But then again, like, considering how these things can often go, I thought there were a lot of good speeches, mainly powered by the fact that Sean Baker is an unnaturally charismatic and talented and funny guy to Be. Especially someone who won. He won four. Like, personally, did he win four Oscars last night?

[Chris Ryan]

He was editing, directing, writing, and he's.

[Andy Greenwald]

A producer, so he won picture too.

[Chris Ryan]

And picture. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So.

[Chris Ryan]

And then he would have, I guess he was the casting director of the movie. So next year, as Sean was talking about, they have casting as next year and he probably would have won that as well. But he. It is crazy. I think he has more Oscars now than Steven Spielberg.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's. I'm just sort of sitting with that for a second.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I. So, so this. But speeches were good that, you know, and, and generally I thought, I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

Know, how was it watching it, not having seen the movies though? I mean, typically you probably get closer about half six, seven. You've been in and out of the country.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, I. I've gotten closer to nine or ten.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And so what was it like watching and just having seen just a couple of things. Like, did you find yourself cheering for Anora having or not, like dg?

[Andy Greenwald]

The worst. So just full disclosure, I've been desperate to see Anora for months and have not made it happen for various circumstantial reasons. I did finally, on the flight back, decide. I'm like, okay, enough is enough. Because I thought I would be able to watch it while abroad, but I forgot to download it in any capacity in American airspace. So it is not streamable in the uk. It is in theaters still. So I had no choices. And so then I was on the 11 hour flight and I was like, I gotta rip the band aid. I know this is not how Sean Baker intended for me to see this film, as he said last night, but he also made an entire movie on an iPhone once, so. Really? Come on. So I did fire it up and pretty clearly realized that it would just be Naked Ladies.

[Chris Ryan]

It's about the first hour. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

For a long time. And I did, I did do like a politeness check to see if there were any babies around me, and there weren't. But I still was like, this doesn't feel awesome. This just doesn't feel. And again, in the scheme of things, like, why should I be prudish about a film about sex workers when the man across from me was just absolutely unabashedly watching Kraven the Hunter? Like, I feel like he had more to be embarrassed about, but I stopped it. So all of that is to say I still haven't seen Anora, even though I feel pretty strongly that I would be. I will be retroactively pro honora I.

[Chris Ryan]

Can'T tell with you anymore. You know, the ones that you have seen, your takes have been spicy. I thought that to your point about the Indie Spirit Awards, you know, I think these things go in cycles. I think that there's probably still some residual Covid and strikes.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's true.

[Chris Ryan]

Sort of entropy happening within the industry. Where even last night, as Sean and Amanda pointed out, I thought wisely, there was just not even a lot of trailers for movies. You know, like I thought.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right.

[Chris Ryan]

The big. The most gasp, this is great to see trailer was. Andor which we haven't really talked about on this.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, we haven't. Because it dropped as we were recording last Monday.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. Which aside from whether or not I think it's pretty divisive that the Steve Earle pick. Because it's just like a little bit more like the fucking real ones, know. Yeah, but it's not. Let's go Thunderstruck by acdc, which is what I think it starts out as, you know, as a riff is it looks better than anything Star wars has done since the JJ Abrams. Like since Force Awakens and the Rian Johnson film. Definitely. Honestly, it looks like some of the visuals in that show look astonishing this year. And I wonder if it's going to be much more action packed.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, should we just talk about that instead of the Oscars?

[Chris Ryan]

I was just going to say that there was.

[Andy Greenwald]

Chris. Chris Andorra. These ideas are free. They're just coming off the dome. I'm going to go to bed in 90 minutes, so take what you can.

[Chris Ryan]

This is good. Usually I think you have made fun of the Oscars for being like my movies, like the movie exceptionalism and Hollywood and stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, not. Not feeling so smug.

[Chris Ryan]

It was a show with a lot of humility, I think acknowledging both the tough time LA has been through, the tough time the industry has been through. I thought there were pleas from the artists to go see these films in the way that they have intended for them to be seen, to keep the theatrical experience alive, to keep the communal aspect of movie going alive. The shots at Jeff Bezos, the shots at Amazon, like the weird juxtaposition of celebrating James Bond that had just been basically like taken over by Amazon while also making Amazon jokes. Like, it definitely seemed to be a show with a little bit more of a raised middle finger this year, which I kind of thought suited it for the time. But it was not an overtly. At least from the Conan perspective. And for a majority of the speech is not in an Overtly political or grandstandy night, which may have worked for some people and may have disappointed others.

[Andy Greenwald]

So when you say political in that sense, do you mean in terms of the politics of the business Business or just.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, Daryl Hannah and Robert Jr. Obviously spoke about Ukraine. The no other land victory was. It was momentous and obviously was incredibly, like, touching moment of people pleading for. For recognition not only of this conflict, but also of their film.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also thought, just as a note about that, that it. It actually. I know we love spontaneity on. At award shows and on the stage. I thought that was a really lovely example of some forethought in the sense of, like, who spoke first, who spoke second. What they spoke about and how they spoke together was really beautifully choreographed and very effective in the moment that they had on stage.

[Chris Ryan]

So, yeah, I just thought this. This Oscar show just to me felt. Even though Anora had this historic night Honora sized, in a weird way, like, it was kind of like. Yes. I think that's like, there are these big movies that had no shot, right? Like Wicked and Dune had no shot. And there are movies that feel very Hollywood, like Conclave or Complete Unknown that were outsiders. And I just. I kind of. I thought it was interesting that this was a celebration. This. This mood. This came down essentially. I know Conclave was a late breaker with BAFTAs and that in the betting markets it was getting closer. Before that, Conclave had kind of replaced the Brutalist, which had been the kind of, you know, like the other competitor for Nora for Best Picture and Best Director and stuff like that. And like, those two films are two of my favorite movies of the year. They're both in my top five. Yeah, they are not Barbie and Oppenheimer, ultimately.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I mean, that's the thing. You asked how it felt watching the show, having only seen a certain number of the nominees. The truth is, only a certain number of the nominees were relevant on the awards campaign. Like, as you said, most of these movies were not going to win anything. And that was very clear from the beginning. What's odd is, as you just said as well, when it came to the major awards, not the technical awards, Dune Part two had as much of a chance as Nickel Boys. Now, again, that's not a quality comment. I look forward to seeing Nickel Boys, and I really like Dune Part 2, but it is a very strange moment, although one that kind of mirrors the American economy, that the entire middle of an industry has been hollowed out. So the big studios, I mean, Warner Brothers spent a ton of money doing FYC stuff for Dune Part 2. Like, it was everywhere. Posters and. And obviously there's going to be a Dune Part three. So it's. It's just. It's not like a. There's still something to do with that.

[Chris Ryan]

But I continue to say this, which is that the third Dune story I would not describe as the return of the King.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, that's. I've heard this as well. Yeah. Is it the fifth one where there's the descendant who's part worm? I feel like that's the one I'm ready for.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel like he. He gets pretty wormy himself in three, but I will see what Denis cooks up.

[Andy Greenwald]

But it is odd that nobody, like, what is the target? Are people trying to hit the target? Because the studios, in the case of Warner Brothers and Universal, are doing their best. They're like, look what we did with Dune. And they're proud of it and rightfully so. And Universal's like, look what we did with Wicked, where we developed this over a long time, this beloved musical. And we nailed it in the sense of, like, the fans love it. Broadway people love it. It made a ton of money. There's a sequel. It's launching, you know, Cynthia Erivo into a different level of stardom, and then they go to these awards and they win the technical awards, and they sit there being like, what do we have to do? It's a little bit strange, and it feels odd. I thought. I mean, I know nothing, and I am not really qualified to be commenting on this, having not seen most of the movies. But I was texting with Sean and Amanda because I saw that they both had picked Anora to win big. To win. To win big Picture. To win the best.

[Chris Ryan]

Sean and Amanda. Huh?

[Andy Greenwald]

I was waiting for that. Well, first I texted them the Jacques Odillard sign at lax. Like, I texted you. I'm going to be honest.

[Chris Ryan]

You do a lot of copy paste. Send out a.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, no, I sent it to you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I've been on the plane for 12 hours, and I got a laugh from you, but I wasn't fed enough. Like, I wanted more laughs. And I realized I should have sent it to all of you. And I did think about adding you to that thread, too, and asked you to just sort of play along.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like, I know exactly what you mean, where you're just like, that. Didn't get the response that I needed.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I was like. So I tweaked the language a little bit, and I got nice reactions from Them, which I appreciate.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm glad they were there for you.

[Andy Greenwald]

But my secondary reason for texting them was that I saw that they had picked Anora, and I was surprised by that because I just thought, again, based on nothing, just a lifetime of watching this stuff, that Conclave was likely to be the winner because it was the most okay of it all in the sense that it's, like, relatively crowd pleasing. It looks beautiful. I think it's an incredible looking film. And coming off of BAFTAs, I was like, this just seems like a more genial consensus Oscar movie. Again, I'm not saying that pejoratively. It just felt like, given the competition, that that seemed the likely winner, that Nora was a little too indie, a little too spiky to be the runaway favorite. I was completely wrong about that.

[Chris Ryan]

Sex worker, is what you're saying.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I stand with sex workers and always have on this podcast. I'm not sure you're very silent on this subject.

[Chris Ryan]

I stand with them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, great.

[Chris Ryan]

I do.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. But I thought. I thought. I thought that was interesting that it went that way. And I guess it's nice when they. I mean, Sean Baker's a great filmmaker. I like his movies always. So I think that's pretty exciting that he has such a big night. I was going to talk about the Brutalist, but that's fine.

[Chris Ryan]

You see Real Peyton.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I saw that one. That's another one I saw.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that four that did not get nominated for Best Picture. It was up for best supporter. I just wanted to talk about Kieran Culkin for a second.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great speech.

[Chris Ryan]

As a father, how did you feel about him being, like, about to throw another baby in there?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I mean, I was interested. I feel like. I'm sure that the Culkin family is very close, but, like, traditionally, the story of their childhood is not one of, like, it's not really.

[Chris Ryan]

I think he's.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, he's trying to reconsider that.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not trying to psychoanalylize Kieran Culkin on the watch.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, no, he. I. He. I really enjoy him on the award circuit, and I thought he gave a great performance in a movie that I thought was pretty good. Yeah, I didn't feel much more about that movie. Did you. Did you have strong feelings?

[Chris Ryan]

I was very. I loved that movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you?

[Chris Ryan]

I did not. I don't. I no longer understand, like, if it's the best script of the year, like, if it's one of the best scripts, I. It feels like it should be one of the best Pictures like, sometimes I understand that Oscar's kind of annoys things and says it's at this level, but we want to give you recognition. I thought he was very good in.

[Andy Greenwald]

The movie or on the circuit.

[Chris Ryan]

I guess the question I ask myself is when I really want to see Ciaran Culkin and Glengarry Glen Ross? Because I want to see him in an environment where the rhythms and the language of Mammon is very precise.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you ever see him in Lonergan? Have you seen him on stage before?

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't. I've never seen him on stage, but I. I feel like every time I've seen Kieran Culkin. He is a character actor. He's doing Kieran Culkin.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's doing a particular character.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. But Ricky Roma, who he is playing in Glengarry Glen Ross, which has been.

[Andy Greenwald]

Played by Al Pacino and he's playing Ricky Roma.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is a production with him, Bill Burr, Bob Odenkirk, that is coming to Broadway soon, imminently in like a week.

[Chris Ryan]

So I really want to see him in that because I want to see him play between the Hash Marks.

[Andy Greenwald]

I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. I mean, I think my. My feeling about that movie was a little bit schizoid because I thought the script was great and I really liked. I liked Jesse Eisenberg's approach to the subject matter and the tone of the movie. And I thought that in a vacuum, I think Kieran Culkin was very moving and very invested in the character and very alive. I didn't always feel like he and the movie were in tune with each other, if that makes sense.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that Kieran Culkin performs a very specific kind of Kieran Culkin neuroses that, in my experience, in a lifetime in an Ashkenazi neurotic body, doesn't really. Doesn't really match. But it was good. Yeah. I think that's sort of a very, like, tightrope walking way of saying, I agree with you. I'd like to see what else he can do.

[Chris Ryan]

A huge fan of Mikey Madison's performance in Anora and her in general. Loved her in Scream, the reboot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, she's in that as well?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. She was part of the. I believe she's in the one that's the. In between the new trilogy. There was one that came out with, like, Emma Roberts and I think another Culkin, Rory. Yeah. And so that. I think Mikey Madison is in that one, if I remember correctly. And she's quite Good.

[Andy Greenwald]

She was very good in a show we never really talked about.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe she is in the first.

[Andy Greenwald]

She was in better things. She is in very good things.

[Chris Ryan]

But I'm a huge fan of hers. Sorry. Sorry. To do me more. You know, She's. She's had a great awards season.

[Andy Greenwald]

Listen. She's going to be running an oil company soon on paramount.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean. Dude. S2. I. I expect big things from Cammy.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's. Let's get off the Oscars. I thought I had a nice time.

[Andy Greenwald]

Watching it last thing. What. What did you feel? Actor. Best actor. Did you. I know you had some Timmy stock.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought Chalamet should have won. I think Brody is very good in it. In the Brutalist.

[Andy Greenwald]

Does he get points for being on this podcast? I think so.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I think that. But I'm not. I. I don't want to. I don't want to. Overweight appearances on the Watch, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Really?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's all I want to do.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought Chalamet was. I would have loved to have seen Chalamet win. I guess that's what I mean.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's where I wanted Rafe for. Whatever misgivings I had about Conclave, I just think he's incredible and he deserves an Oscar.

[Chris Ryan]

I would love to hear your thoughts on a complete unknown.

[Andy Greenwald]

Honestly, I still haven't seen it.

[Chris Ryan]

You'll either. You'll either have the best time or you will walk out. 20 minutes in.

[Andy Greenwald]

Walk out of my own home?

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Walk off of an airplane. I. Goodbye, sir.

[Chris Ryan]

You, sir.

[Andy Greenwald]

With the Kraven the Hunter on I did. I really like Adrien Brody as an actor, and I think that he. I thought the Brutalist showcased the things that he is just unmatched at in terms of intensity and emotion, like performing with his whole body and self. But I didn't think the movie set him up to success and kind of left him. I think it left him a little exposed sometimes. I don't think. I don't think that. You know, I had some issues with that movie, but one of the things that I didn't love about it is that other than Guy Pearce, I did not think it had a lot of good performance. And I think it came from the direction, which I did not think was necessarily flattering to actors because Brody was giving everything of himself and everything that he gave made it onto the screen. And I feel like it seemed like too much.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm fascinated. I want to talk to you about this.

[Andy Greenwald]

I felt that way about Felicity Jones performance, too. But go on.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. See, I think I was way more into Felicity Jones generally than it seems. It was generally received. Although she did get an Oscar nomination. I think a lot of people were like, that did not work.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was me. I was that person.

[Chris Ryan]

As far as Brady Courbet setting them up for success, I think maybe that is a little bit of how much you liked the movie or not. Because I think he actually exposed them in an intentional way. I don't think that they're supposed to be necessarily like heroic or villainous people, I think.

[Andy Greenwald]

But my comment has nothing to do with the characters. It's just, I think that they're. I mean, actors will often tell you that, like they don't. The director and the editor are in charge of their performance. They will give. They'll give takes, they'll give options. They'll give.

[Chris Ryan]

It's funny, they don't really say that when they win awards, do they?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a great call. But they will generally give you like.

[Chris Ryan]

Nobody'S like, oh man, I didn't do shit. This is all the director.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you for finding me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, right.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, but it's true. Like you could craft very different performances out of the raw footage that usually is collected on a film set. And I feel like they. That that the Brutalists showcased the Spinal Tap. This performance goes to 11 takes of these. Of these actors. Gotcha. When I think there were probably more subtle variations on some of the scenes, basically I feel like it should have been longer and shown more variations. I didn't like the movie.

[Chris Ryan]

One day we'll discuss it.

[Andy Greenwald]

One day we'll talk about it.

[Chris Ryan]

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[Andy Greenwald]

Do you notice that about yourself?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I do. I do. I did think. I have been thinking about my posture generally, because I can't tell whether it's age or, like, phone, but I do feel, like, a little bit more hunchbacky or slumped or kind of like, oh.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you're thinking about Lachlan?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, and I was thinking about that kid and the homie who was like, you got to do this, you got to do that, and don't cross your legs and everything. And I was wondering whether or not I would enjoy that kind of session. I have to say that the season of White Lotus, we're talking about episode three now, unless you wanted to do any more Oscar stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I feel good.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I would generally say has gotten off to a slow but incredibly pleasant start. Yeah. I do feel like now that we are at the end of episode three, a couple of balls are rolling downhill now, narrative wise. I'm not. Hey, I'm here for the hang. It's okay. I'm not making a big complaint. But I am saying that I do think that this information that we got out of the first three episodes and the overall feel that we got out of the first three episodes probably could have been an episode and a half. Maybe that's being cruel or not fair. But I do think for me, I was just like, a lot of shots of water, a lot of shots of, like, monkeys. Yeah, a lot. Like, I just feel like there's a lot of interstitial kind of, like, vibe setting which I get. And. And I'm still very into this show. I was just saying I was happy to get to the end of the third episode and be like, I Get. I get where Rick's going next. These gals got some conflicts. Like. Let's go.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. I think I. I completely agree with you. This is how I feel about the show. I have not been bored once, but I did note that three hours have elapsed and. No, there are no.

[Chris Ryan]

Are they saying still the same people that they were when they checked in, is the question you're asking yourself, basically, when you're watching?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it's that there's. There's no variation in any of the conflicts that were laid out in the opening moments of the pilot thus far. Right. That when the Ratliff family arrived and Jason Isaacs is, you know, clinging to his phone. And then there's some. Something that's worrying him that has continued to worry him. And now the FBI is in his office. Yep. His sons are on the same journeys they were on at the beginning. His daughter has gone to the monastery twice.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Andy Greenwald]

And not.

[Chris Ryan]

Parker Posey. Keeps taking lorazepam.

[Andy Greenwald]

Keeps taking them pills and.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that what she's taking?

[Andy Greenwald]

They don't really say. I think it's. It's possible.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought there was, like, a.

[Andy Greenwald]

She seems to have a couple options.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, well.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think she just wait. You think that would help with your posture?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it would send it the opposite direction.

[Andy Greenwald]

Slump it out. But. Yeah, but, like, I. I do think that we generally, especially because of the tenor and vibe and pace of a lot of television these days, we probably overrate strong zags as opposed to the unsexy work of, you know, it's like offensive line play. You know what I mean? Like, that's really where the game is.

[Chris Ryan]

One television is one in the trenches. Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. So now next week, if we're talking about episode four, and we haven't really moved anything in any direction, we might revisit that. We might want to dial up some explosives.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I wonder whether or not also just personally healing, if that's what there's ideas of. Like that you can pay to heal, which I think is sort of an underlying idea and theme of this season. And that you can try all this different stuff. You know, you can do the stones and you can do the classes and you can do digital detoxes and all these things, but you're still you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is interesting, but maybe not as interesting as some of the clashes of characters. I also feel like in the first two seasons, like, there was already more overlap between the disparate groups.

[Andy Greenwald]

The groups. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Which I think is sort of the. The spice of life. When it comes to White Lotus, is Daddario being confronted by Sweeney, you know, like vacation friends. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not friends.

[Chris Ryan]

Or just like the beef around the pool and stuff like that. So I was happy to hear that Patrick Schwarzenegger had gotten himself a yacht invite, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, that's good for him.

[Chris Ryan]

Just like, let's get some folks talking to other folks.

[Andy Greenwald]

Things go really well historically on the show when characters go on boats. I do want to just respond to your comment about paying for healing. I don't really know how our Walmart branded holiday segment was put out into the world if people listening saw it where we got gifts for each other. But whatever. You paid in real life, CR or Walmart bucks for that portable theragun that you got me.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you implying that there is a CR Bitcoin now? CR Bucks.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would invest. And I'm glad the government is finally strengthening that marketplace. You got me a little portable theragun, which, by the way, that healed me on this trip. That was really a kind gift. That really helped. Yeah. I think overlap would be good, but I also don't want to look past the things that we are getting and the. Through three episodes and I think really.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm just making content. I love the way it looks. No, I know, but I'm just like. I'm just talking, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, let me throw this on the fire.

[Chris Ryan]

Allow me to retort.

[Andy Greenwald]

The third episode really underlined that Walton Goggins is doing God tier work as he always does. And I think that there may have been a little bit.

[Chris Ryan]

So.

[Andy Greenwald]

What the show is saying this season particularly, or might be starting to say about a certain kind of capitalist malaise. Masculinity is kind of interesting. Like Rick and Greg. Greg, Gary. We talked about this last week just sort of staring into space as their.

[Chris Ryan]

As they lose their hair and pay for younger women to date them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And just take no pleasure in anything because their entire existence is just maintaining whatever it is they've been able to accrue. So they're basically just playing a life of defense, you know, against everything, including the ravages of time or potentially Belinda.

[Chris Ryan]

Coming up to him and being like, I know you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, yeah. And then particularly this episode where we see different sides of Rick because we see him go up to Sitala and, you know, and be charming or at least change. Put on a performance for that. And then we also see him get super hot. That was an aggressive. Those were some aggressive pulls on the joint that he took.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was pro level stuff. And then seeking Freedom for snakes.

[Chris Ryan]

Go into a tree.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I mean, that was. That was really good. And I kind of. I'm just. What I'm watching. And this speaks to your point, too, about potential overlap between the various groups. The way that the three friends, the women, are behaving. You know, in some ways, that's the most White Lotus storyline so far, where everything seems perfect when they get there, and then immediately the fault lines are exposed, and then now they're noticing them, and it's starting to get a little toxic. I was thinking about those relationships. They are best friends, but they kind of loathe each other.

[Chris Ryan]

They don't know a whole lot about each other.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And they don't want to know or they don't like what they discover. And then I was thinking about Rick and wait, why am I forgetting Jason Isaac's Mr. Ratliff. What's his name?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, you know, I just called him the Ratliff. So let me look it up while you're sitting there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Ratliff Sr. I'm sorry, I'm blanking on it. Oh, Tim. Tim Ratliff. I keep wanting to say Theo Ratliff, but that's just my Sixers fandom talking. Okay. Better or worse, Season three, if Theo Ratliff is married to Parker Posey, honestly, I would say pretty good.

[Chris Ryan]

I would take Theo Ratliff back of the Sixers today.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, my God. Defense would improve at any age.

[Chris Ryan]

No text from you about that, by.

[Andy Greenwald]

The way, about the Sixers. Yeah, I'm shutting myself down for the season, too.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. You're severing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you. Thank you for asking. The Tim and Rick thing, where they just, like, instantly, even though they probably on some level have an enormous amount in common in terms of just trying to maintain something even when the. Long after the thrill is gone, they just instantly hate each other and then just the only things they say to each other is off, basically, that relationship compared to the women kind of being in a similar place. But saying we love you, we love you is an interesting through line to us.

[Chris Ryan]

The Trump conversation between Jacqueline, Kate, and Lori was one of the best scenes in this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Totally agree.

[Chris Ryan]

The performance, especially Bib, the way she nailed I'm an Independent was so good.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was an amazing line.

[Chris Ryan]

And I thought that the turn of her seeming, like, air of kind of like moral superiority, like kind of like, you know, enlightenment that she's having when she's drinking that glass of wine and. And kind of her strong posture to juxtapose that with the way that the kind of shadows fall on her when she sees Jacqueline and Laurie talking without her and obviously talking about her. I'm unclear exactly like, what the auditory prowess of everybody on this island is. There's a lot of hearing things from distances that I personally could not.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think they spent as much time in rock clubs as we did in their 20s.

[Chris Ryan]

She should have seen hot snakes three times. She wouldn't have been able to fucking hear a thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

And she would have been happier, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, because you would.

[Andy Greenwald]

What are you guys talking about? You talking about Hot Snakes concerts?

[Chris Ryan]

I saw a couple, but that was my favorite part by far. And just, like, there is something about the cadence. Mike White definitely has been in those conversations, has had those conversations, and has got the cadence of the. The dance of, like, who have you voted for? What have you done? Why, like, you know, the way it starts with the conversation about church, I just thought it was incredible.

[Andy Greenwald]

By the way, Wikipedia seems convinced that it's lorazepam. Wikipedia is like, yeah, the reason I.

[Chris Ryan]

Brought it up was. I think it was people, but it doesn't really matter. Felt the need to. I guess there was like, a concern troll about, like, are people going to watch White Lotus and start doing lorazepam for fun?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, that's seems like a very genuine concern to have.

[Chris Ryan]

I honestly, at this point in this country, it couldn't hurt take the edge off.

[Andy Greenwald]

Everybody. Let's just chill out.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe we need to bring lewds back. Someone needs to give headsets. Some lewds.

[Andy Greenwald]

Why are you burying the spiciest stakes in minute. Whatever this is, that's great. Do you think. Well, do you think it's evidence of lorazepam in this country or a sign of the need for it that the New York Times ran a Maureen Dowd column called he's rooting for Putin? Like, what? Like, do you think. Where are you on the Roosevelt? There you go.

[Chris Ryan]

There you go.

[Andy Greenwald]

You just made it relevant.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's nice.

[Chris Ryan]

The kids, the. The Ratliff kids. What's up with Piper's spiritual journey? Hmm?

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think it's. Do you think she's doing it because of something that had happened to her?

[Chris Ryan]

I. You know, it's. It's maybe a consequence of two seasons of White Lotus where people do a lot of theorizing, but I also think it's a result of the way Mike White is telling the story, where there is a blank spot either in the emotional motivation or actual biographies of a lot of these characters. What did Tim Ratliff do? You Know, like, what is this? I mean, we. Obviously, it's some sort of financial crime or whatever. Why? Or what? To what extent are the Ratliff kids touchy feely with each other? Why is Parker Posey's character pretty much like in a sarcophagus of her own pharmaceutical design, but also like, weird, whenever she peeks her head above the parapet, like when Kate comes up to her and she's just like, that was so weird. Like, what's up with that? Why is Rick so pissed? You know, why is. Why is Chelsea with him?

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, they're soulmates. Remember? They're soulmates, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

But like, I don't even know how long they've been together, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

What does she say? We're soulmates. And he says our signs don't even.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, right. Scorpio. And what is she?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't remember.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't remember. I. I also don't know anything about astrology.

[Andy Greenwald]

What's your sign?

[Chris Ryan]

Scorpio. Oh, me and Goggins.

[Andy Greenwald]

You and Goggins and Drake, I believe. Right. The Holy Trinity guys have a lot in common.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. On the CR Bux, it's like the pyramid, but it's like me, Goggins and Drake.

[Andy Greenwald]

Are you all holding, like, your arms are touching?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, we each have a third eye.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's beautiful.

[Chris Ryan]

Sorry. Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Are you worried that a listener is going to be like, taurus and Scorpio should never podcast together.

[Chris Ryan]

Too late. We've been doing it for like 12 years now. Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's a full Chinese zodiac cycle since the last year of the snake.

[Chris Ryan]

You like the. The connective tissue across 13 years. Okay. Our podcast has been bar mitzvahed.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I know.

[Chris Ryan]

What do we get?

[Andy Greenwald]

You were hopefully some CR bucks in our crypto wallet.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I used to fucking really be that dude at bar mitzvah's. You know that, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Would you. Would you like, show out to like 3?

[Chris Ryan]

But I feel like the. Well, it was bat mitzvahs. The girl whose bat mitzvah was only invited. I went to a couple. There was bar mitzvahs. Bat mitzvahs, as you may be aware.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

I got asked to dance first by the birthday girl at two different doc. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

What?

[Chris Ryan]

And it was like back in my Parker Lewis can't lose rayon shirt.

[Andy Greenwald]

Holy shit. Wait. Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And I just fucking slow dance.

[Andy Greenwald]

You got asked to do.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, now, once was to Stairway to Heaven. So, you know, obviously, like, there's a shift.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's a tough one. My main memory and the other One.

[Chris Ryan]

Was if I have in my mind, it was Crazy for your by Madonna, but I don't know if that's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's probably right. My first slow dance at the middle school dance was to Wham's Careless Whisper. It's a nice one. Really felt the saxophone solo I thought was a nice time.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm an Ashkenazi jewel.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I didn't need to lead with that. Nor do I now. The main issue with the dancing at bar and bat mitzvahs is that they usually hit right in the sweet spot when all of the girls are three feet taller than the boys.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I know.

[Andy Greenwald]

So there's a lot of like, they're.

[Chris Ryan]

Still three feet taller than me.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you were just. So you were a short king before you were a king?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I was like, I was a pretty short kid and now I'm a short man.

[Andy Greenwald]

But you punched above your weight.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, right. I'm not getting any kind of like, experimental hip breaking surgery to like, make myself five, ten.

[Andy Greenwald]

You can't. You can't buy confidence.

[Chris Ryan]

I want to get back to the text here.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't. I'm loving this digression.

[Chris Ryan]

What is your reaction to the interconnected plot lines of the three seasons? So we've got Belinda from season one back in season three on this retreat to the White Lotus. Phuket.

[Andy Greenwald]

Where.

[Chris Ryan]

Where are we?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, we're in Thailand. Phuket.

[Chris Ryan]

We've got Greg slash Gary, who was Tanya's strange con man paramour.

[Andy Greenwald]

They met in season one and he had her killed in season two and.

[Chris Ryan]

Now he is in season three. I saw some speculation online that season three was in fact taking place at a different, like in between one and two or whatever. I don't think that's happening.

[Andy Greenwald]

Definitely not the case.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you like it?

[Andy Greenwald]

The, the, the overlaps?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Just curious, like, is this. Is this something that you thought this show, this is giving it to show kind of like a ballast that it didn't have?

[Andy Greenwald]

For me, it is another sign of Mike White very successful, which is that he has. He has a lot of thoughts about identity and wellness and your worth as a person and how you express yourself in the world and how you can never escape yourself. But he is also an entertainer. And to me, I mean, sometimes you can't point to Eureka moment for successful TV shows, but it does seem like the origin story for the, for the White Lotus and for Mike White's career. It's not even a resurgence, but this was leveling up to a different, completely different degree. Can be traced to kind of one of those moments. And it was just like everything that he likes, but with very strict guidelines. In the case of, like, during COVID era, it's like these characters in this place and they can't leave. But also just the very simple conceit of I'm gonna show a body in the first few minutes. You know, like season one.

[Chris Ryan]

A crime.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, we're gonna show a crime. Like both seasons. I think all you need is a.

[Chris Ryan]

Girl and a gun. Somebody said that about what it takes to write a good screenplay or a.

[Andy Greenwald]

Good makeup and a bat mitzvah in the 90s. I think white Lotus would be a successful and entertaining and thought provoking show without the central crimes of the first two seasons. I still think it would be good, but in terms of hooking people, in terms of getting people talking, redditing, obsessing, those were essential decisions to have made and to have put into the show. I say that because to me, that's what the overlapping stuff is. It is not. It's icing. It's not the cake and it's fun. And maybe at some point there will be some grand, you know, grand connected narrative about what the show is actually saying. And it's all about Belinda, but we'll see.

[Chris Ryan]

These are. Each hotel is a room that the macro data refinement team are refining.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that a sign that we're going to. We're turning the page.

[Chris Ryan]

That's. That was a. That was a suggestion that we could. I was going to ask you about Guy Talk and Mook.

[Andy Greenwald]

I love Guy talk.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that guy's. I feel like that guy might have a great season.

[Andy Greenwald]

You think things are going to go downhill for him?

[Chris Ryan]

I think he's too pure for this world.

[Andy Greenwald]

He is pretty pure.

[Chris Ryan]

So I don't think he's going to die necessarily. He's very sweet, but I am worried about where his character is going because that dude just has like. He's just like, I love. I love standing right here.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is fine.

[Chris Ryan]

And flirting with this woman.

[Andy Greenwald]

He likes going to the fights.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know why he wants to be a bodyguard, but I guess that's just like, you know, that that would be a step up financially. But like, who. Who really wants to be.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, he just wants to be the guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Heavily armed bodyguard.

[Andy Greenwald]

He wants to be the guy behind the guy or in this case, in front of the guy.

[Chris Ryan]

But it seems like he has actually a relatively easy gig if nobody is trying to bum rush the hotel to rob it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but isn't it fundamentally that Mook just sees him as the nice guy who's just opening the gate. And if she's. Maybe he thinks that if she saw him.

[Chris Ryan]

This is why you're the writer. I'm just a, I'm just a proletariat who's like, show me more.

[Andy Greenwald]

More sunshine guy, throwing on a rayon shirt, being like, let's go ladies. Electric slide in five.

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[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by the all new ESPN app. All of ESPN all in one place. Your home for the most live sports and best championship moments. It's the ultimate fan experience. Step up your game and get even more than before with no annual contract required.

[Andy Greenwald]

Level up.

[Chris Ryan]

For more on the ESPN app or at stream espn.com Sign up. Now. Let's talk a little bit about Severance. Okay, I want to open with this thought. Severance's authorship, the author, the author of Severance has been something that kind of has, I think changed in the course of, of the last two seasons and the development and production of this show. Where Dan Erickson wrote this script, right? It's his concept created by, I think Ben Stiller has been the public face of the behind the camera work that's been done so at Nick's games, on podcasts, tweeting, just doing, doing it all. He is like the voice of the show and the face of the show and I would assume a lot of what's happening on this show is, is down to him. But that being said, I just want to give a shout out to the director of this episode and the director of photography for many of these episodes of Severance, Jessica Lee Gagne, who I thought shot the shit out of this thing. And it is one of the more virtuoso directorial performances you will see on the small screen or the big screen, honestly, in the last couple of years. And I have really enjoyed reading about all the practical ways they did certain shots in this episode. Chikai Bardo, using no cgi, doing like crazy production design and moving sets and moving the camera through things. The. The one that a lot of people have noted is. And spoilers for this episode is immediately after the reveal of. Of Gemma's miscarriage. There then is this sort of like layered nesting doll of who's watching who. It goes to a scene where Mark and Ms. Hayes are talking. And then it jumps down to another level of the Lumen, you know, maze, where a older but still Mark looking. Although I doubt that that's really in any way Mark. But an older man is mdring or.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like watching a computer while coming from the inside. Right. The suggestion that they're being watched through the screens.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And that Dr. Maurer, who is also the dentist and the fertility doctor and the weird captor husband of Gemma in these different rooms, is standing there with the guy with the frolic tattoo. And I thought that that was a great moment. She just. She kept me like. I thought she did an incredible job directing this episode. So I wanted to start with that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think if I could, like. I also have a bunch of positive things to say, and one of them is the star of the show. I mean, you're saying who the author is and who the star is could be debated, but I think the star of the show is the camera. Even though Ben Stiller, he's directed some of the episodes, others have come in. There is a consistent visual language. And some of that has to go to Jessica Lee Gagne, who's shooting every episode, not just the ones that she directed. As the director of photography, there is real inspiration and beauty in some of the most simple things, like the match cuts of rooms that resemble each other, especially as Mark is coming undone, that like the, you know, a room on the severed floor will suddenly crackle and basically be a room above, but with different furniture, different color scheme, different lighting. Like that stuff is very, very. Seems simple, very challenging and very consistent. Which is really nice, I think. Yeah. I mean, I. I don't watch stuff for camera movement, but I recognize excellence when you see. When I see it. You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

So where Brady Courbet is like God.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not to. I mean, that's the correct count. I mean, that's. You're right. Like I. When I watched this episode. And I'll let you keep going. Cause I have other positive things to say too. I was thinking A lot about our friend. And despite what many of our listeners may think he is our friend Sam Esmail would say, like, he is a director himself. He's a filmmaker himself. And aesthetically, this is unimpeachable. It's stunning to see this done on such a level. And often when you're. When, especially for other filmmakers, when they see creatives and enormously talented creatives, given the time, space and priority to do what they do best and what they love to do, it can be. It's not just dazzling. I think that can be really affirming. And this is a absolute. This episode is a masterclass in how to make things visually just excel, Shine.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I was watching something last night. It actually doesn't matter what it was. It was a screener for something that's coming out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Was it the brutalist 2?

[Chris Ryan]

It was the brutalist 2.

[Andy Greenwald]

The deleted scenes, just extra content. Doylestown After Dark.

[Chris Ryan]

We got that. Yeah, we got that in Brutalist. We got Doylestown Jazz Little smack.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. Did you know that that was just near our homes?

[Chris Ryan]

I was watching something and it's actually a good show with a very good reputation. But I'd watched it relatively soon after seeing Severance and it struck me just even 85% of other television kind of looks like shit, you know, like it just, you know, the light has nothing to do with the drama. You know, like the sets all feel like you're shooting this in Vancouver or.

[Andy Greenwald]

And for what it's worth, that is. That's time and money.

[Chris Ryan]

It's an economic reality. I completely understand that. I'm just saying that, like, I sometimes want to, like, say Severance is doing something very special visually. And I think that that honestly is enough. I will watch probably every episode of the show because of that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think. I'm sure I've said some version of this before, but, like, where people have gotten into a lot of trouble. Not trouble, but. Well, although maybe trouble. And they end up in like TV jail. But during especially, I think the now ended super, super premium prestige bubble that we had for about a decade was everyone thinking everything should be cinematic, but then having the budget of a basic cable show or whatever. And then so you have people coming in with big hopes and big dreams to do even a fraction of what Ben Stiller and his team do on Severance, and then they come crashing into the reality of Eight Days to Do it. And you end up kind of in the mushy middle where you see the intent for, like, grandiose execution of visual ideas. And then you just can't actually execute it. So seeing it done, I think, is the judgment of the show aside, is a celebration for that kind of work, the possibility and the potential of that kind of work on the small screen.

[Chris Ryan]

I also just thought I'd throw this out here. I don't know when otherwise I would mention it. It is occurring to me that Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is one of the most influential films of the 21st century.

[Andy Greenwald]

Totally.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know that I would have thought that, but, like, I feel. I would not necessarily have thought that 10 years ago, but I feel like visually and also the ideas that that film played with, this idea that you could basically play within your own mind and go around and interact with your own memories in this way. The way it's visualized, I think, is a huge influence on this show, a huge influence on this episode specifically. And the ideas that the brain is somehow like this landscape that we can traverse is not first time. It's not the only time it's ever happened, or the first time it's ever happened is Eternal Sunshine. But I feel like the way Gondry brought that to life and the. The things that people were trying to heal from inside of their own minds.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Are very similar and are very resonant in this show. And I feel like I just don't have anything at the fingertips. I have to. Internal sunshine. My own references here. But it does feel like it's worth noting that there's a huge, huge influence on a lot of stuff that's come since there.

[Andy Greenwald]

I totally agree with you. I think it is also interesting to note, though, that I think Gondry would be the left hemisphere version of the.

[Chris Ryan]

Brain, though, and Charlie Kaufman would be the right.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, Stiller is the right. Right. Left is the creative one, the artistic one. Like, there's something that is just fundamentally messy about Michel Gondry's filmmaking. I mean, a lot of it is handmade. You see beautiful ideas, and then you see some just misses and mistakes. And Eternal Sunshine is the best example of it all coming together. Although if you talk to anyone who worked on the making of that film, everyone was like, we are a day away from a catastrophe. They did not think they had a masterpiece. And sometimes that happens, and that's a beautiful thing. But not until, like, way into the edit do they think, oh, oh, it works.

[Chris Ryan]

This works.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stiller and severance. And this is an aesthetic choice. This isn't a value judgment is much more clinical, it's much more anal. It is Precise. Everything is straight lines.

[Chris Ryan]

And I set up this binary. So I don't expect. I'm not correcting you, but I will say Eternal Sunshine is about kind of going into your memories to try and keep or lose, like this heartbreak that you have, but is in definite conversation with that. This is about cutting that fucking stuff out. The reason why these people presumably thought they chose to do severance. It may become evident that severance chose them as we keep going. And that's certainly what this episode suggested, was to cut out the durational experience of loss, right? Or grief or whatever it is that the feeling that they want to get away from is. So I think that that is like the main difference. They're trying to get away from their memories.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it's totally right. And I think it is a. I think this conversation is really interesting in terms of different ways that you can express aspects of the human condition, particularly through. Can we ever separate parts of ourselves? Can we ever become different people? But I do think, again, this is not a judgment thing, because we do not. And the judgment things are coming. But I do feel I bristle against comparisons of severance to things like Eternal Sunshine or other, you know, interesting boundary pushing stories about. About the self, like. Like Lost highway or something. Because Eternal Sunshine and Lost highway come from a place of real messiness, risk and danger. Like, you don't really understand intellectually what's happening, but at times you emotionally.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't intellectually understand what's happening on Severance.

[Andy Greenwald]

I feel it. But I feel like Severance is set up for there to be an intellectual answer.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that we'll see how that resolves. Maybe that tension is the text. Like, maybe that's ultimately what it's gonna be about, that you cannot do that. And thus there are these verdant goat covered hills of humanity that just exists spilling outside of the. You can't contain it in this white box at the Lumen headquarters. I'd be really interested in that. But they are very, very different ways aesthetically to tackle an intangible idea.

[Chris Ryan]

There's a moment in this episode where Gemma is going through her sort of various. Maybe actually towards the beginning of when we're getting introduced to her doing this. But like the dentist's office, the whatever is happening in these rooms. She's getting inspired by Sandra Bernhard, Cecily character, the nurse, and Robbie Benson's doctor character, Dr. Maurer.

[Andy Greenwald]

By the way, kudos to Stillers Rolodex.

[Chris Ryan]

Great, great casting.

[Andy Greenwald]

Phenomenal casting. Like people who are known and out there with careers and successes. But I wouldn't say Bernhardt or Benson are, like, on the bench, but I don't know if they're at the top of anyone's guest star list.

[Chris Ryan]

Smart places to put those people.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it's cool.

[Chris Ryan]

Sandra Bernhardt could easily have been Devon, but it's something very creepy about her as a Nurse Ratchet. Or maybe a slightly more sympathetic nurse. Not that there's only one nurse. You know, like, do you want to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Talk about your feelings about nurses? I feel like there's something here.

[Chris Ryan]

Nurse Dana among my favorite people in the world right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

God bless her.

[Chris Ryan]

There's a moment where Gemma says to Dr. Marrow, can you please just talk like a normal person?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That was one of the highlights of the season for me too, because I. I can only be me. And I. I do ask these questions, and I do want to know what level of artifice we're living in, what normal people in this world are like. Because the only people we really know are characters who are obviously, like, totally obsessed with what's happening with Mark, you know, and what's happening.

[Andy Greenwald]

Very invested in it.

[Chris Ryan]

They're not. There's not like another even. And even when we get to see the Door Company or, you know, whatever, like, you're like. This is highly stylized and very clearly like, about mirroring Dylan, you know, and there's stuff going on in that. Gemma and Mark marking their papers while donating blood. Probably also the point where Lumen started analyzing who they were in the first place.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Was this, like, breath of fresh air for me, as was. And I think it's supposed to be. It's all lit warmly. It's all lit like normal life.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to talk about that. Yeah. I feel like that was in many ways the first crucial piece of information that we've been given this season. And maybe it's subtle, but because the show is such a tightly siloed box of aesthetic choices, it was, to me at least, deeply unclear whether the color palette of the Audi world was a stylistic choice to mirror the inner emotional lives of people like Mark and to be a contrast with the bright or.

[Chris Ryan]

A physical reality kind of thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Exactly. So the fact that the world, at least the way the world was lit or the way the seasons work was suggested to be, quote, unquote, normal by this episode was. Was enormous. That prior to all of this going south for him, he seemed to exist at least in a world that looks more or less like our world.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's crazy that that's where we're at. We are with these things. But that. But that's. These are the little things that I've. I don't think. I don't know if I've ever. If I've always articulated it clearly, but, like, I don't understand the playing field of the game we're playing, the parameters of the stadium or the conditions on the field, or if this is a unique. I need. I need that stuff to ground myself.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that there's just. The show has. Is so expansive and it's so capable of going down levels in Lumen. Who's refining the refiners, who is. Who is minding the goats like you. You can keep dropping down levels. And I find myself wanting, maybe wrongly, for the show to go up levels and be like, yeah, who is the governor of the state where Lumen is? And does that person care that this is happening? Like, does anybody give a shit?

[Andy Greenwald]

Does that person have to answer to his constituents in town halls? Is that what you're wondering? That's right.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. God, there's a lot to unpack here. I. I guess I would. I would say that the. I loved a lot about this episode and deeply, deeply disliked the Devin Rigabi scene at the end. Oh, yeah, towards the end where Mark has been discovered, obviously. And I guess any scene where Devin and Regavi are kind of like, talking about harmony, what to do next. Take my word for it, he'll be fine. But I have done brain surgery on him. But I'm also very quick to leave him. Her kind of vagueness as a character and to the extent to which she is really there only to push the ball forward about Mark's reintegration and Mark becoming fucking Neo in the Matrix or whatever they're gonna do with him.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, she's.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm like, neither of you are making any sense in this scene and that. That you can only have one person who's not making any sense.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, the. What's your name? Rigabi. Like that. That's not a character. That's a. She's a plot point. And I find that very frustrating and particularly to your point like that in that scene, Devin is like, I. I get out of here. I. You can't touch him. You're hurting him. I'm gonna call Cobell. And then the doctor's like, fuck this, I'm outta here. And then she goes, you can't leave him. You just like, she. The doctor explained what her terms were. Don't call her. So now they're arguing about it.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Even though she could just behave differently to get the outcome she wanted that that was.

[Chris Ryan]

It was just a very disorienting scene that I think was essentially there to get Rigabi out and get Colbell back in.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And sometimes you can feel that the. The marionette strings.

[Chris Ryan]

I haven't. I haven't seen a head. I mean, I assume Patricia Arquette is coming back to the show at some point and having a sort of.

[Andy Greenwald]

She's an EP this season.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So it's weird that she has been in like eight minutes of it so far.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm fine with that, personally. I had a question, so, I mean, people who have been listening know this, like. And I will just be upfront about it like this. This show is an emotionally closed box to me. It doesn't work for me. I don't get it. I don't feel for these characters and I. I'm not really moved by it. I wish I was. So that's why I'm trying to focus on more of the aesthetic things that I think really are remarkable. That said, this episode clearly worked for a lot of people who consider it to be, I think, the best of the season, if not the series so far. And I was wondering your feelings about the show's the goal of the episode, because it was, again, it was forced to do something that is quite, quite challenging. And I say that with, again, the caveat that the majority of viewers think that it did it successfully. The challenging thing is, can you retroactively inject a storyline, characters, a couple, a relationship with enough emotional juice to earn what you're going to do with them? This was the first episode where we ever saw a glimpse of Mark and Gemma Scouts if she changed her last name. I don't know. I'm not judging their life together. It's a remarkably heavy lift on a number of levels. First, it's a really hard lift on an acting level because Dykan Lachman and Adam Scott have only ever played Mrs. Casey and Mark S together. I believe on screen, I believe you're right. So to suddenly have to flirt and have this warm relationship that in just a few pages of script has to convey great depth of feeling in history. That's really hard. And I think for the most part, they succeeded. I think Adam Scott was really outstanding in this because he got to play some notes that he's been known for in his career that he doesn't always get to do on the show. And I know that he's spoken about what a great opportunity the show is. For him to show the other parts of himself and the, you know, the dramatic. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Cause he's been dramatically doing comedy for a long time. But he was more or less a trained dramatic actor until like he shows up in Stepbrothers and everybody's like, well, you're one of the five funniest people to put in a movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

But he's also super, super, just effortlessly charming and has good chemistry with people. And that was nice to see on the show, especially with the sunlight. But so. But it's not just challenging from actors, it's challenging from a writing perspective and then a directorial perspective because it just has to do so much heavy lifting. And I wondered A, if you thought that it was effective in terms of your viewing experience. But B, and I kind of, maybe if I wasn't super jet lagged, I would have done more research on it or I should have done research on it while I was awake this morning instead of thinking about eating corn chips before the sun came up. But I'm glad about that decision. By the way, I wondered how many examples of this we have of being done. Well, you know, of backfilling something. I think I was thinking Lost attempted versions of this multiple times per season. You know, of like to understand what a character is.

[Chris Ryan]

But if I remember correctly, like the. The flashbacks in Lost were essentially thematic foundations for what the character was going to be doing in the episode in the present.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it was just like a moment from the past that illustrates why. With their current predicament or why they behave as well.

[Chris Ryan]

Why said it's going to do this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I guess I wondered if you had a lot. Any mem. If you had anything on the top of your head of this being done particularly well or if you would say this did it.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, do you know what's making this. That stuff actually work for me a little bit is this show is maybe a little bit more emotionally complicated than I thought it was because. Not that I thought it was, but that I was giving it credit for because the entire time we're watching this very heartbreaking story of a relationship, I was also thinking about the fact that this dude is in love with heli.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Right. So part of him is. Well.

[Chris Ryan]

But the bifurcated part of him is.

[Andy Greenwald]

About to unify that.

[Chris Ryan]

That. Yeah. So like when this dude wakes up on the couch with tears in his eyes saying, sir, sir, where is my girlfriend?

[Andy Greenwald]

President or wife?

[Chris Ryan]

Who's president?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right.

[Chris Ryan]

Sorry, sorry. What happened with NATO?

[Andy Greenwald]

He's an independent. He's an independent.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that that is. That is what I'm most interested in seeing, is that, like, you know, one soul can love two people. Or maybe he doesn't even love Heli. I don't know. I mean.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but that's.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe that's just, like, literally his work wife.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or maybe I'm just a simp, but, like, I'm into that story.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I'm into Helena.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Being like. More dim sum, please.

[Andy Greenwald]

She didn't order that much.

[Chris Ryan]

She didn't order anything.

[Andy Greenwald]

He ordered everything.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

There was no food left is the issue there. Yeah, I. Yeah, it's just. It's a forest and trees thing, and these trees. And in this case, I mean, like, the different sort of banal torture rooms. I say banal because it's like the dentist turbulence. Like, these are real, everyday things. These are just sort of amplified, horrific versions of them are so wild, unexpected, and so beautifully designed, but also the.

[Chris Ryan]

Kinds of things that you would want to forget or be severed for.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's a great point. But also, like, I find that entertaining. I didn't feel anything for the Gemma character, like, other than that sucks. It's tough. Do we feel like there's something. I mean, you're on the boards is the sense that Gemma's doing this to save Mark, to have a baby, because that was the goal.

[Chris Ryan]

I definitely think that the amount. One of the things I really liked about this episode is the amount of biological surveillance these two people were under from giving blood to the fertility clinic, where. There is a quick moment where Dr. Maurer is in the clinic, walking by. They're. They are being watched. They are being surveilled down to their bloodstreams for a long time.

[Andy Greenwald]

Now, I should say that you're saying this as someone who wants that in terms of, like, just making your flights easier, because I was just like, anything they want. That. That is one of my favorite things about you.

[Chris Ryan]

Literally. Bradley X Delta may have, like, my.

[Andy Greenwald]

DNA, as long as it reduces your wait time in certain lines at la.

[Chris Ryan]

Just let me get my uncrustables faster. You know, I just think that. What I don't understand is, did Gemma volunteer for this, or was she taken for this? And if she was taken, I don't know what that means. I mean, obviously, there's a criminal aspect to what Lumen is doing, but, like, I don't. Did she go down there because, like, they've talked about the world you will sire. Were they gonna make her fertile? I don't. I just. I just don't know. Where that's at it. I. I feel like I've. I've, like, picked up, though. I've like, this was. This was an episode where I was like this. There's a little bit more coming together for me. There are still parts that bother me a lot, but I think I am looking at much more enjoyably as a puzzle to solve rather than. I think where you're coming from is like, I'm not emotionally connecting with this. And I also. While I respect the virtuousity of the filmmaking, that's not enough for me to be, like, on board with what's happening.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but it is. But it is enough for me to be impressed. Like, I like not to sound completely bloodless about it. Like, I think it was. It's. It's a dazzling. It's dazzling. And it is a triumph in the ways that aren't always my priority in viewing experiences. And the other thing that I really do appreciate about the. The show, though, for as much as my criticisms over the last few weeks seem to be pointed at it being just nothing but a mystery box show, it churns forward. It may not turn forward at the schedule that I want or the types of revelations that I'm more interested in.

[Chris Ryan]

We're not maybe arriving at any recognizable ports of call where you're like, ah, okay, so then this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. That said, it did a flashback episode. It did do the backfilling that I was saying is challenging. And it went for it and it tried to do it in a way that was narratively and aesthetically consistent with what has come before. And that's not nothing. You know, it is not running from stuff I continue to say, like, for. And I feel like this is the one point that people who listen to the podcast and disagree with me will agree with me on. I think we are united in saying that the finale is gonna be super wild and important. The season finale.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, and important.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, they are not scared and they.

[Chris Ryan]

I gotta say, one of the other things that fucked me up this episode in a bad way was I do not remember anything about Devon at the birthing retreat from an episode in the middle of the first season three years ago. And that was apparently an important thing about why she knew how to get in touch with.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, she was. Harmony was cosplaying as her.

[Chris Ryan]

But I just.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't remember and seems to be super interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Obviously I don't remember the constant and what happens in that baby slick.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but you've been doing a great job bluffing here. I'll say that I did find the whole episode more understandable and enjoyable when I realized that it was just a metaphor for jet lag and that that Mark experience of being like, I'm in my kitchen. I'm on the kitchen floor. I was like, finally, I'm seeing your.

[Chris Ryan]

Version of that is just like. You have like a mouthful of Tostit.

[Andy Greenwald]

It just crumbs everywhere.

[Chris Ryan]

Here's what we're going to do.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

We're going to complete the podcast there. Because we had such a lovely conversation.

[Andy Greenwald]

You knew. You have such an innate sense of timing. You were being real cagey about Thousand Blows, and you knew. We just were just didn't have the Runway for it today.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not even that. It's just I want to gauge your level of engagement. And also, we have the pit. We have A Thousand Blows and maybe Daredevil. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. Well, I think we can do all of it. I'm engaged by a Thousand Blows. I'd love to talk to you about it. I'd like to talk specifically about how it mirrors my own experience as a newcomer to London. You know, how dangerous it is to.

[Chris Ryan]

Dodge horses as a guy who likes taming lions. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, metaphorically.

[Chris Ryan]

Greenwald, it's wonderful to have you back, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm back. I mean, I'm back.

[Chris Ryan]

And thanks to Kaya and everybody behind the scenes for making the show today. And we will be with you again on Thursday.

[Andy Greenwald]

Adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Team the new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you.