‘Pluribus’ Episode 6 and ‘The Chair Company’ Season 1 Finale

Summary

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The Watch – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Watch
Hosts: Andy Greenwald & Chris Ryan (The Ringer)
Date: December 5, 2025
Episode Title: ‘Pluribus’ Episode 6 and ‘The Chair Company’ Season 1 Finale

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan dive deep into two standout TV series: the midseason arc of Pluribus (specifically Episode 6) and the season finale of The Chair Company. The hosts also discuss recent entertainment news, their personal influence on TV trends, the deluge of espionage content, and the evolving television landscape as the year draws to a close.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Entertainment News & Industry Banter

• Spy Genre Resurgence
  • Chris shares excitement over new casting for the upcoming George Smiley universe, with Charlie Hunnam as Alec Lemis and Daniel Brühl as the East German counterpart, Jen Fielder (04:24).
  • Andy and Chris reflect on the glut of current spy shows compared to past years.

    "There's so many spy shows on the air. Like, really, there's very little time of a calendar year where we don't have a cool espionage show on." — Chris (04:12)

• How Much Have Andy & Chris Influenced TV?
  • They joke about their impact, claiming small credit for Industry's renewal and Colin Farrell’s Penguin casting.
  • Notable bit:

    "I think Casey Bloys and the folks at HBO Warner Brothers listened and they were like, let's get this guy in the penguin suit." — Chris (06:53)

• New Shows and Industry Rumors
  • Brian Koppelman and David Levine’s new Las Vegas-set series for Netflix, possibly joined by Martin Scorsese.
  • Industry chatter about Warner Brothers' sale and the complex media bidding landscape (12:25–14:48).

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2. TV Year-End & Viewing Habits

• Selecting Best of the Year
  • The hosts tease their upcoming year-end Top Ten lists.
  • They confess to catching up on potential contenders, referencing obscure streaming titles and perennial British hits.
  • Andy notes the abundance of quality, pushing some old favorites off his list.

    "There's no space for that this year... A show that we have talked about on this podcast will not make my list this year, which is a sign of good health for the industry." — Andy (16:32)

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3. The Chair Company Season 1 Finale

Viewing Experience and Structure

• Chris gained deeper appreciation by bingeing the final episodes:

  "Storing up several episodes and then watching them successively helped me feel like I was in the rhythm of the show a little bit more." — Chris (19:38)

The Show’s Comedic DNA & Surreal Style

• The hosts compare The Chair Company's structure to I Think You Should Leave but stretched over longform narrative.
• The finale’s outrageous opening — a child shooting a man in a hotel lobby — typifies the show’s commitment to absurd escalation.

  "There will be five minutes where I'm like: what the fuck am I watching? And then he'll just do one thing... and I'm irl lol-ing." — Chris (23:27)

• Andy argues it’s more than comedy, comparing its odd vibe and emotional undertones to Twin Peaks: The Return:

  "I think that this is the closest television has ever gotten to having the spirit of Twin Peaks just full stop." (24:10)

Commitment to the Bit & HBO’s Legacy

• Both hosts praise the show and HBO for nurturing unconventional talents:

  "They're making a show that they are doing — they are fully committed to." — Andy (27:41) "I just think that, like, we are on a different kind of ride." — Andy (27:05)

What’s Next?

• They wonder aloud if Season 2 will reset or develop ongoing weirdness, noting the show's unpredictability.

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4. Pluribus Episode 6 ("The Big One") – Deep Dive

Mastery of Expectation & Cliffhangers

• The fake-out cliffhanger ending of episode 5 sets up big reveals, but sidesteps traditional television clichés:

  "One of the more perfect executions of a fake cliffhanger that I've ever seen." — Chris (34:19)

Plot Recap & Thematic Analysis

• Carol’s Discovery: She finds a massive freezer of human remains; initial horror gives way to a rational, if unsettling, explanation from Diabate — a community leader thriving in the post-apocalypse.
• Philosophical Dilemmas:
  • The show interrogates what counts as a dystopia or utopia, and the lack of shared social responses in crises.
  • Modern apathy and fractured collectivity underpin Carol's fraying sense of purpose.

  "One person's dystopia is another person's utopia... we've shattered this idea of a collective response." — Chris (36:34) "One of the great communal fictions of post World War II culture has been we are just one crisis away from a rallying cry." — Andy (38:18)

Character and Performance Praise

• Rhea Seehorn ("Carol") impresses with her near-solo performance:

  "I'm starting to be mesmerized by the littlest things that this person is doing on screen." — Chris (40:47)

• Andy highlights the show's willingness to linger on small lived-in moments for big emotional payoffs (42:07).

Subplots: Paraguay & Human Connection

• The "B" story of a character (possibly Carol’s counterpart) in Paraguay draws parallels to Carol’s journey, emphasizing trauma, skepticism, and alienation.
• Questions about shooting locations and production craft — Andy and Chris in awe of Pluribus’ cinematic scope on a TV budget.

The Gilligan Touch: Show Structure and Tone

• Vince Gilligan’s methodical pacing, refusal to indulge in high-concept sci-fi twists for their own sake, and focus on character-driven storytelling sets Pluribus apart.

  "It keeps surprising us. Like, what if there are the people who are the wrong people to be the heroes of a story? What if this is a story that doesn't require heroes?" — Andy (46:12)

Comparisons to Other Prestige TV

• The hosts compare Pluribus’ organic approach to Severance, noting Pluribus’ elegant, character-first mysteries over puzzle-box plotting (51:31).

On Artistic Risk and Medium Potential

• Closing thoughts celebrate Pluribus as a TV work that makes the hosts excited about the medium’s possibilities:

  "This is different. This makes me feel like there's still a lot we can do with this medium." — Chris (53:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chris, on the spy genre resurgence (05:23):
  "We've never had it better in so many ways in our life. I mean, train commutes aside, we've never had it better."

• Andy, skeptical and philosophical about media mergers (13:18):
  "I am really on the wrong side of a lot of Saudi wealth funds, so I'm not the right person to ask about this right now."

• Andy, on The Chair Company’s finale (25:58):
  "I loved every second of it. I was glad it got the early renewal because there was no resolution whatsoever. There is very weird pathos."

• Chris, on Pluribus’ sophisticated use of cliffhangers (34:19):
  "One of the more perfect executions of a fake cliffhanger that I've ever seen."

• Andy, on dystopian storytelling (38:18):
  "One of the great communal fictions of post World War II culture has been we are just one crisis away from a rallying cry."

• Chris, on Rhea Seehorn’s performance (40:47):
  "I'm starting to be mesmerized by the littlest things that this person is doing on screen."

• Andy, on Pluribus’ character-driven writing (46:12):
  "It keeps surprising us. Like, what if there are the people who are the wrong people to be the heroes of a story? What if this is a story that doesn't require heroes?"

• Chris, on the creative state of television (53:56):
  "This is different. This makes me feel like there's still a lot we can do with this medium."

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Important Timestamps

• 03:37–05:08 – Spy genre news, casting, and the hosts' personal industry influence
• 09:32–12:06 – New series announcements and Hollywood dealmaking gossip
• 15:55–16:57 – Behind-the-scenes looks at constructing year-end Top Ten TV lists
• 19:23–27:45 – The Chair Company Season 1 finale analysis, beginning with binge-watching (19:38) and ending with thoughts on HBO’s legacy (29:04)
• 31:17–53:56 – Pluribus episode 6 deep dive, including cliffhangers (34:19), character study (40:47), and Gilligan comparisons (46:12)

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode of The Watch is a lively and insightful exploration of two of the most distinctive TV series of the year, blended with sharp industry banter and reflections on the current state of prestige television. Whether it's their admiration for Tim Robinson's bizarre world-building in The Chair Company or their awe at Vince Gilligan’s restrained, philosophical dystopia in Pluribus, Andy and Chris bring humor, honesty, and depth. This episode is essential listening for anyone following the best of 2025’s TV or interested in how great shows are changing the medium — and for fans who love hearing two friends riff on the weird, the brilliant, and the industry insiders’ perspective.

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Transcript

[Chris Ryan]

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[Chris Ryan]

Paid support staff to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and and joining me on the other line from the Westgate Casino, it's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm actually on the Eastgate Casino. I'm far to the east of you, my brother.

[Chris Ryan]

You finally went home to Mother Russia.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, it's on the table. You know, as I've said to you before, my colleague with whom I commute from my job here often says that when the trains go awry, it's Putin's fault. And let me tell you, the great game has never been played like it was played today. You're catching me on a real heater today, Andy.

[Chris Ryan]

We're going to talk Pluribus and we're going to talk about the chair company. But I'm really glad you brought up Putin because I have another bit of news for you at the top which is Cold Ward related. Before we do that though, is it back on the Cold War? It's never, it's never been over. That's. I have been sleeper selling this whole time. Before we get started though, the [e-mail] to email us. Rare-TV is a channel on YouTube where you can watch us. You can also watch us on Spotify where I hope you listen to us and you can hit us up on Instagram @thewatchpod. Andy and I are still remote for this week and next week, but we'll be back in person after that. When we'll be doing our end of the year spectacular including our best of the year TV shows. Best TV shows of the year. And I and I would imagine our best episode of TV for the year.

[Andy Greenwald]

Where does Rachel Reeves fall on your top 10 list?

[Chris Ryan]

You mean the Chancellor Exchequer of England?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And what is she doing wrong? She did stamp.

[Andy Greenwald]

People aren't happy. People are not happy. She was basically like, it's gonna be cool. Read my lips. No new taxes. And then someone leaked her draft budget that was like lots of taxes. And it's really interesting because people don't.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that like the hair?

[Andy Greenwald]

It was a strike through and it was like no bad ideas in a brainstorm. What if more taxes and let me tell you, they're not happy about it. Here I'm. This is our reporting that our podcast has lacked and I'm here to bring it.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, Andy, what if I told you I had some entertainment news that might cheer up our British listeners and really any listeners who are affectionate about the military industrial complex and espionage say less.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's go.

[Chris Ryan]

We've got some casting news in the George Smiley expanded universe that, you know, we talked about a little bit when Matthew McFadden got announced as the next George Smiley in John Le Carre's son's efforts to take his novels and fully take them to streaming television and blow out the whole world of that. The first series is going to be Legacy of Spies and it's going to be on BBC and mgm. Plus it will adapt the Spy who Came in from the Cold along with the 2017 novel Legacy of Spies which is sort of a prequel sequel to Spy as well as got some Tinker Taylor in there. McFadney obviously is playing George Smiley, but they have cast the role of Alec Lemis with Charlie Hunnam.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. A little bit beefy.

[Chris Ryan]

Cast the role of.

Of Jen Fielder, who is the sort of East German counterpart to these guys as Daniel Brul.

[Andy Greenwald]

Love it.

[Chris Ryan]

And only announcements on the behind the scenes side. You know Stephen Cornwell, who's David Cornwell, which was John Ler was David Cornwell's pen name. Stephen Cornwell is co writing the series with Clarissa Ingram. But I did notice that Graham Y, who we folks will know from Justified, from Silo, from the the screenplay for Speed, lots of movies and television over the last 30 years, is working as an executive producer on this series. So I'm very excited. I hope this works out. I was thinking today about how we've never had it better. There's so many spy shows on the air. Like, really, there's very little time of a calendar year where we don't have a cool espionage show on.

[Andy Greenwald]

We have never had it better in so many ways in our life. I mean, train commutes aside, we've never had it better. No, it's true that the spy genre, like, a few years ago felt a little fallow. Do you think we had anything to do with this resurgence? Would you like to get your flowers? Would you like to do a laugh?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I mean, I, you know, I did. There are times where I feel like we've had an impact on. On, you know, decisions to renew series or, you know, maybe like, the people getting, like there's a little bit of uptake on a series. I think we. We can take credit for some of those things. Obviously. I know you dine out on. On Leftover season two, taking a huge creative leap because of your criticism.

[Andy Greenwald]

I do not. Okay, okay. Sidebar. I do want to talk about your spy question, but, like, honestly, we are now. It's coming up on January, which is shocking, which will mean 14 years deep in this game. Okay, what do you think we can point to tangibly as things that have happened because of us in the industry? I will give you two. And one of them involves the word industry, and that's it. Okay. I think that unquestionably we are credited with the absolutely infuriating opening to The Leftover Season 2. Proud of that. I do not take any credit for the creative resurgence of the show. Second, I believe that we played a small part in industry getting renewed for season two. I feel like that is canonical. Beyond that, what can we really point to? Do you know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

I can give you a great example. If people go back to the archives, they'll hear us often talk about our love for Colin Farrell, but our exhaustion at seeing how good looking he is. And I think Casey Bloys and the folks at HBO Warner Brothers listened and they were like, let's get this guy in the penguin suit. Let's get this guy, make him a disgusting brother.

[Andy Greenwald]

And good.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I. I'm happy to help Colin Farrell. You can't be so charming and so goodlooking.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think that there would have been a the slap expanded universe if we had just pulled our punches a little bit? Pulled our slaps, if you will? Do you know what I mean? Like, do you think that we made a little, little too much of that thus ending? Because it's not just the slap. I do feel like that there was a small cottage industry 10 years ago of entertainment spawned by uncomfortable collisions between adult hands and children's faces on playgrounds. I feel like that that was a genre of play, and everyone's like, oh, it's quite thought provoking. You know, it wasn't just the slap. I feel like there was a play on Broadway around that point. Maybe I'm. Maybe I'm mistaking things, but, like, I.

[Chris Ryan]

Feel like now, if the slap has been out, it would have to have much more of a true crime bent. You know, it's like the kid gets slapped, and then the father of the kid who gets slapped goes on a killing spree in a suburban town where nobody expected something like that to happen.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no. Or that, like, the origins of the original slap was like a Lovecraftian, like Cthulhu kind of like, deep dive. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's something to. I wish. I don't know. I'm starting to feel maybe I'm just reaching that stage of life. It's a little autumnal. Like, I want to know, like, what we did, like, other than had a good time with each other. Like, yeah. I mean, that's the only thing the Lacari shit. Like, you should just tell people that you got Night Manager renewed. So you were like, there is another night that needs to get.

[Chris Ryan]

I want a nightmare. Night Manager is longer. A longer break than Stranger Things, you know, I guess they were just waiting for that Loki schedule to clear up.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I don't think it's the same because I think Tom Hiddleston has remained roughly the same size, so I feel like there's not any night surprises. Anyway, back to your point. Very exciting. Lucari Expanded Universe is fantastic. I do feel like that you could probably, if you took all of the actors in roughly our generational cohort, you could basically, you could create like, a little desk, and they could approach the desk and you could say McMurtry or Lucare, and then you would just, like, hand them a ticket and then they would just.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Agree. They would agree.

[Chris Ryan]

You get Streets of Laredo. You.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, you can get yeses. You can get to yes very quickly. If you do the things that you and I and people who are like us like. So great. It's good for our podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't really have a lot of other headlines for you. Just before we started recording, it was announced that Brian Koppelman and David Levine sold a straight to series order to Netflix, basically making a show about a Las Vegas casino. And that Martin Scorsese will be involved, presumably as an executive producer. It is. I think this will be cool. They haven't made a series since Billions. I'm a big fan of Kaplan Levine's writing as well as Brian personally and David personally, like in the times that I've met them. I will say it's very funny when.

A streaming show basically has the same conceit as an old TNT or network show. Like Las Vegas. Yeah, exactly. And this is just, you know, if they make Boardwalk Empire but set in contemporary times, I'll be pretty fired up. If they make any, any part of the history of Las Vegas, I think it would be very interesting. I'm not sure if contemporary Vegas.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, really fascinates me as much as 70s or 60s Vegas contemporary.

[Andy Greenwald]

Present day Boardwalk Empire was Jersey Shore. Like you have to be careful what you wish for. So this is, this is confirmed present day Vegas.

[Chris Ryan]

It hasn't been. I. It didn't get confirmed that. But that was the implication. It's about. It'll probably be. It seems to be about a casino president who's, you know, fighting off, you know, putting out fires left and right. But I don't know what. Like, is it vacancy rates of hotels post Covid. Like what are.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no, here's the thing. Here's my pitch. It's all about a loosely fictionalized version of the independent journalist John Ralston, who every four years gets. Gets libs super libbing out about like where the union vote is trending in the, in the, in this. In the state. Right? Yeah, like, that would be gold.

[Chris Ryan]

I love how you said gets libs super libbing out. Like, look, look at the man in the mirror, brother.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm wearing all blue today, baby. We only lost that Tennessee district by nine. Let's go. Vibes are elite.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you donate to that lady's campaign?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but I did delete a number of emails, so I did feel involved. Yeah, I mean like they still, somehow they've still got the digits after all this time.

[Chris Ryan]

So we have that DiCaprio did an interview with Deadline and did confirm his participation in Heat too. Kind of like I'm fairly certain that's. That stands as a confirmation. No confirmation on which role he's playing, whether it's Christian Hurlis or. Or Neil McCauley. So we continue to, to wander around in the darkness on that one.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I ask you for an update? Because you're again your boots on the ground in, in Tinseltown. Like you're reporting on the industry. It's true, Chrissy.

[Chris Ryan]

Supreme over here.

[Andy Greenwald]

Any movement on the various Saudi wealth funds and how much they're going to pony up for David Ellison to buy Warner Brothers. Like, where. Where is that shaken out, really?

[Chris Ryan]

Can't say, man. I mean, I was. I was potting with Sean yesterday, and he was getting. Getting texts, being like, it looks like this, it looks like that. But, you know, was he really? Yeah, I mean, I. I feel like it's actually now it's being talked about within the industry pretty. Pretty openly about, like, the different bids and the different permutations. Did you. Have you decided who you're rooting for? I know you need a passion point for your, you know, any story, you have to have a rooting interest, a fandom.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, look, I mean, you guys know that, like, there's conflicts of interest in the Olivia Nuzzi sense, and then there's conflicts of interest like your boy. You know what I mean? Like, I'm out here in England working for Warner Brothers. I have something with Universal. My parents have Comcast, Xfinity, and frankly.

[Chris Ryan]

I've refused to cancel my mom's Xfinity service.

[Andy Greenwald]

And frankly, I am really on the wrong side of a lot of Saudi wealth funds, so I'm not the right person to ask about this right now. That said, I do find the entire thing so distasteful. I don't know if that's just me holding my nose about contemporary capitalism, but I find the whole thing so gross that I kind of feel like the more interesting path. Our buddy Shield Kapadia, always says he's not an Eagles fan. He's team content. I do think one of the more interesting paths would be if somehow the Universal bid wins out. Because the Universal bid is very, very explicitly like, we don't want half of this business.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, we want.

[Andy Greenwald]

We want the studio. And basically, not to reiterate for people.

[Chris Ryan]

Who are, it's Eduardo from the social networks coming for everything.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it's the opposite. It's the opposite. Saying that the current version of Warner Brothers Discovery was going to split, and now they've decided to sell. And what they were going to split was the basic cable channels from the more profitable studio. And HBO and Universal bid is, we want the better half of that split. We don't want the cable channels. Right. We just want streaming service in the studio.

[Chris Ryan]

Cable channels to worry about. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And so then the other thing is that, you know, it's possible that our very straight and narrow Justice Department would not like that. Which would. Which would. Which would tie it up. It might Tie it up in the courts. And if there's one thing that these last few months have proven is that the courts are really respected. So could be interesting. Could be interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, well, we'll keep our eye on that developing situation. Any other news, like Talk of the Town type observations you've got from the UK while you're over there?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I'm totally useless. I did turn on the television in hopes of seeing one of my two favorite shows. My first favorite show, as you know, is Canal Boat Diaries. It was not on. My second favorite show is when Jamie Oliver does anything. Except from November 10th through January 3rd, it's just episodes of Jamie's One Pot Christmas.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. Where he just says the word courgette over and over again.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, that's every episode. But this time it's like festive courgette for the festive season. So that's uninteresting to me. I did find an episode of Great British Baking show, which was so niche. It was a holiday special from 2021 in which the cast of the series It's a Sin. Oh yeah, we love that show. But it turned on and I was like, is this a show that we liked on the Watch? Are these actors from a show we liked on the Watch or is it just England? Couldn't tell.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I wanted to ask you about because It's a Sin reminds me that we, I think we both had that on our top 10 of the year. It came out for this last 10, 10, 15 days. Before we do our top 10 of the year, do you feel like there's any one series that jumps out that you're like, I really do want to get a couple of hours in on that before I do my list.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm doing that. I wasn't going to tell you because I was going to because we're definitely, again, people know this. We're doing our top tens, I guess, in a week and a half, probably. Right. Two weeks from. And it's a little chalk. Like I think you and I will.

[Chris Ryan]

Likely have six or seven are like non negotiables.

[Andy Greenwald]

Absolutely. More so. And I was comparing it to last year when last year when I threw 3 body problem on there for Lulz. There's no space for that this year. Like a show that, that I love, that we have talked about on this podcast will not make my list this year, which is a sign of good health, I think, for the industry. But there's a show in particular that I have, I ran it back and I want to surprise. I'M going to hit you with it. But it's real high on my list.

[Chris Ryan]

Have talked about it. But you visited.

[Andy Greenwald]

We didn't finish it. We didn't finish it. And I'm all the way back in and I can't wait to talk about it. But I've also done other research projects on the plane. Like it's like this is a perfect time to watch the paper and ready for my review. Sure, it's fine.

That's my review. I have very, very good will towards it. But I do find it interesting that this is the third series separated by decades, of course, in the sort of the Greg Daniels mockumentary Family Tree. And for all the good things about it, especially casting and stuff and all the things that they've learned from making the Office and Parks and Rec. The main character modulation problem is still such a thing because I'm now eight episodes into the 10 episode first season and they do not know what to do with Donal Gleason's character Ned, like do not know what to do with him in the same way that Michael Scott was really tough to nail in the beginning. And the same reason why the first six episodes of Parks and Rec are generally almost considered non canon because Leslie was kind of annoying to people. So I do find that interesting that they haven't been able to figure it out. The track record suggests that they will figure it out. But I found that currently airing on.

[Chris Ryan]

NBC, I think, which is interesting. I wonder how it's doing on terrestrial television and whether that's something that's helping it or giving it a little bit of a second life. And the second season I don't think is that far away.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think the Saudis are sweating it? They're like, oh, they've got the paper that's going to help the universal bid.

[Chris Ryan]

For me. I think I've been trying to go to some of the more far flung streaming services that we don't often discuss the work from. So yeah, checking out Cooper Rafe's Helen Harper on Mubi as well as Joe Wright's Mussolini Son of the Century on mubi.

[Andy Greenwald]

I literally think you're making this stuff up.

[Chris Ryan]

I know he just did a series about Mussolini on mubi.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which side did he fall on that question?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, we'll have to wait for our best of the year to find out. And also just checking out some of the Britbox stuff, which is ironic since you're in England. But you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

I really could have used a little bit of Mussolini on my, on my commute From Watford today. I gotta be honest with you.

[Chris Ryan]

Feel free to cut that just a little bit.

[Andy Greenwald]

He famously was pretty good with rail transit. Okay. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Dealer's choice today, Andy.

[Andy Greenwald]

I am.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't wait to talk to you about Pluribus. But I also, you know, I would be remiss if we didn't discuss the end of Chair Company And I was discussing with Kai before you signed on.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That I had a late breaking Chair Company.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I found that storing up several episodes and then watching them successively helped me feel like I was in the rhythm of the show a little bit more.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. I'm glad you did that. I. Can I just also just lay down a marker. I know that you talked about Landman already this week with Mallory. I didn't. I know.

[Chris Ryan]

With Bill Simmons.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Did you? Who had a spicier take on Roadhead between the two of them.

[Chris Ryan]

It shouldn't surprise you to know that it was Mallory.

[Andy Greenwald]

It does not. Here's what I. Here's what I think. And I know that us talking about Landman Weekly is potentially controversial with some of our listeners. I don't think it's as controversial as it is for me. Who has agreed to watch Landman, who's.

[Chris Ryan]

Trying to turn Tennessee blue. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm trying to understand the other side. Trying to get Afton over the finish line.

The point is, I put in the hour to watch this episode, and so I feel like I need to turn it into content like we need to.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not transactional, man. You can just watch TV because you love it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Chris, I didn't want to bring this up, but I understand that you spent three and a half hours watching an Avatar film yesterday, and I still can't get you to fucking watch a Miyazaki movie. So all I'm saying is. All I'm saying is some people are out here. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Doing the work.

[Andy Greenwald]

Trying to do the work so we can save it for the end. I think you set us up nicely with a little Chair company. So why don't you explain to me more how you set the mood, set the tone, as your friends in Shorzy would say, in order to get yourself back into it.

[Chris Ryan]

You're not watching Shorzy, are you?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I would save it for a viral moment in person if I was.

[Chris Ryan]

I let go of the string on Chair Company, which, you know, nobody needs my, like, recovery documentary here with the show. It's beloved. It's very popular for what it is. It's been renewed. Tim Robinson obviously, is kind of a unique and inimitable voice in comedy right now. And I think it just took me a little while to adjust to those jokes being stretched out over the course of a 30 minute episode rather than in the more.

The more sort of in the fractions of it. I think you should leave. And when you let go, you know, when you put the blast shield down.

[Andy Greenwald]

On it, hands up on the roller.

[Chris Ryan]

Coaster, you're just like this little kid. Shooting this old guy in the hotel lobby is really funny, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

See, I'm interested in you saying this because you ruined my dad's life.

[Chris Ryan]

And he pulls out a 3D printed gun.

[Andy Greenwald]

See, but what's interesting about this, this is why I love your brain here and you're zagging. Because I actually, when watching the finale and I love the show.

Kai made me Internet famous for loving the show and I respect him for it. Yes, I thought that the opening of this episode, and this is a season in which our main character Ron has been planning his daughter's wedding. And then we open at a wedding that we of people we've never seen before, and then a drunken man being told that he should become a professional songwriter. And then the man who encourages said drunken man gets shot by a child. I was like, I kind of see Chris's point. This may be a bridge too far. I thought that may have bumped you because it was just more and more and more and more.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, no, because it is kind of like the. I hate talking about comedy in this way because it just sounds so mechanical. But when. When you're describing a comedy show, aside from just listing the jokes that made you laugh, it's hard not to sound a little bit schematic with it. But I think that it's the Will Ferrell Austin Powers joke where he gets thrown into the fiery pit, but he just keeps going like, please, somebody help me.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's like, I'm very badly burnt.

[Chris Ryan]

Then it's not funny, then it's really funny, then it's not as funny and then it is hilarious. And that's kind of how I feel about some of the rhythms of this show where it's like there will be five minutes where I'm like, what the fuck am I watch. And then he'll just do one thing. He'll react to Barb in one way or like make a face and I'm irl lol ing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Here's the thing that I might even suggest to you. And we've talked around versions of this. What if the show isn't really totally a comedy?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, this is What I think I was worried about earlier in the season where I was like, I think they think that this is like.

Well, this is like Twin Peaks the Return or something.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, you brought that up. I think it's the best comp. I think that this is the closest television has ever gotten to having the spirit of Twin Peaks just full stop. I think because of the comedy, I think because of the extremity of the oddness. I think because of the underlying sense of horror in the banal. And in terms of a absolutely unwavering aesthetic vision that Tim Robinson has with Zach Canan, Aaron Trimberg, who's directed a bunch of the episodes, clearly in on it as well. The degree to which they. Like in the scene in this finale when everyone at the. Not the chair company, at Ron's company, they're sitting around the table talking about what to do about Ron.

[Chris Ryan]

It's so fucking funny, dude. And Lou Diamond Phillips is just getting more and more pressed. It could have really hurt him.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's eight absolutely weird randos who are not necessarily, quote, unquote. And I say this with love and respect. Traditionally good actors, but they're not bad. And then there's also Jim Downey from Jeff Epstein with the island fame, by the way. Fun documentary on Jim Downey on Peacock right now that I watched again, that.

[Chris Ryan]

Would have been better if you had been a documentary about Jeffrey Epstein that I just watched.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I heard Joe Wright has an Epstein series coming on Mubi, and you don't really know which side of the island he's landing on. And Lou Diamond Phillips. And it's just. Just watching aesthetically what they have done with this casting, with this tone, with this rhythm. It is. There's such commitment to the bit. And, like, I would. I would love to talk to those guys, for example, but I don't know if you noticed, they did no press. They went on Seth Meyers together, but otherwise they're like, look, this is what we. This is what we do. It's like. It's like underdogs winning an NBA game and just pounding their chest and leaving the court. Like, we really do this. Yeah.

I don't know. I just. Definitely. I loved every second of it. I was glad it got the early renewal because there was no resolution whatsoever. There is very weird patos.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like, I don't even know. Are we still talking about the chairs now we're talking about a telekinetic woman in his office and her boyfriend who.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wears a baby mask at their old high school. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's revenge for something Ron. Like some basically, like, unremarkable thing that Ron did when they were in high school where he spit a gummy bear up in the air and it landed in her cleavage.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Mike is a troubled, if sympathetic man who has.

[Chris Ryan]

The mic thing killed me. The Mike trying to get with the daughter. Like, the girl who has his heart. Or is it the heart?

[Andy Greenwald]

He has the heart of a man who died, and he showed up at the girl's wedding so that her father's heart could hug her. And then he hit on the mother and then he hit on her, and.

[Chris Ryan]

He was like, the heart doesn't count.

[Andy Greenwald]

I love it. I love the commitment to the bit so much. And I just think that, like, we are on a different kind of ride, I think. And I don't think any. I don't know if anyone who's not watched the show is listening to us rave about it, but I'll say if there's even a percentage of you who are like, it'll be like, when Detroiters hits Netflix. We'll just catch up with it. And it's a funny hang. Or even, I think you should leave. It's just a collection of really good jokes Or. Or even friendship, which I loved, which is an extended bit. They're doing something that is so completely different. They are not trying to stretch those bits into a show to see if it works. They're making a show that they are doing they are fully committed to.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder whether the second season. So, like, another show that I think, you know.

Might show up in some people's 10 best lists. I don't know if anybody on this podcast, but the rehearsal season two, which had, like, this you central premise, was still the same, but was about a completely different thing. I wonder if that's where this show goes. Is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is.

[Chris Ryan]

Will Ron just get into something else, or are we gonna stay in this kind of world of anonymous, benign office drones and Ron kind of getting obsessed with something for five minutes, you know, like, how much of what's in the first season, like, the dog.

How much is transporting over to the second season?

[Andy Greenwald]

What about Asher with the face mask?

[Chris Ryan]

Is Seth gonna get into risd?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's expensive. It's expensive. When is Wendy's gonna introduce its carvery concept for him? Like, there are a lot of pressing questions, but, like, I don't think it's hyperbole to say that the HBO that we love that will soon be relocating to Riyadh, Is it historically been at its best when it's been in the business of, hey, we are finding you at the right time when you are ready to grow with us. And whether it was like, you know, a David Simon on the drama side or a Danny McBride.

[Chris Ryan]

Brian, Ben. Ben on the comedy side.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, you might want to call a couple of those plays back. But I'm just saying, like, we're investing in you and you go and run with it. This is one of those. It really is. I love the show.

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[Chris Ryan]

Okay, let's talk about A show that I'm fairly confident will be on both of our 10 best lists at this point. Pluribus, which we haven't really had a chance to discuss in. I think we missed the previous episode. So the last time that we talked about it, was it Carol, please? Was that what that episode was called?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right. We didn't talk about the fact that the voicemail box is Patrick Fabian, who played Howard on Better Call Saul. And it was a nice little Easter egg for fans as well as for Rhae Seehorn. The other Easter egg that I didn't know from that episode was that the woman who says, may we save her life about Sioscha at the end of the episode apparently is the real life EMT who saved Bob Odenkirk's life on the set. Better Call Saul. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, that's so funny. I just watched Marin do video about, like, not do a video, but he was clipped when he was on a talk show talking about, like, talking to Odenkirk right after his heart attack.

[Andy Greenwald]

Odenkirk sending Joe texting jokes from the hospital.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Anyway, let's talk broadly about where this show's at and then we can get into the specifics of this episode that just aired. And also like the. The previous one, which are kind of tied together because it's Carol's discovery.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, I love the show. I am completely dialed in. I think these past two weeks have been among the best episodes of the season far, and in fact, it really hasn't been a dip.

What I particularly loved, and we can sort of zero in on this before we get into any bigger details, but I love the way when you're watching a show made by one of the masters of the form, infince Gilligan, but also.

Just a master of tempo and expectation that the end of the previous episode, which is really like a hard cut from a gasp of horror or fear or discovery there is the anticipation. Right. And you were texting me about this, that, oh, next week is quote, unquote, the big one. That the way that we engage with these prestige shows with limited season lengths, eight to 10 episodes, is that inevitably there will be, quote, unquote, the one that explains things or flashes back or turns everything on its head. And it was all set up to be that. And what I loved about this episode, this week's episode, is that it gave us that it was a legitimately horrifying discovery. You completely understood Carol's reaction in the immediate term and then also in the longer term of just Immediately driving with this information to Mr. Diabate in the casino. And then it does what this show does, which is subvert our expectations, which is turn down the temperature, which is to cause us to consider things from a perspective we haven't, Knowing that we are a students of prestige television and how it works, but also be students of dystopia. Right. That there has to be a horrific twist in order for her quest to feel heroic or in order for us to have something to root for. And it wasn't. It was John Cena being like, look, we know it's a little bit gross, but we don't have any other. We don't have any better ideas.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought every turn that we eat.

[Andy Greenwald]

People, we should just say, sure, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I think everything that happens in six is a, like, one of the more perfect executions of a fake cliffhanger that I've ever seen. So often. What will happen, especially in the era of binge streaming, when you have. You want people to stay engaged with the season, is that you throw something in there. And this has been the same. Same as it ever was since we've started botting that. You throw something in there in the last 10 minutes of an episode so that people click next episode on their streaming service. And Pluribus is not too good for that behavior. They put things at the end of episodes that are certainly like, I cannot wait till next week. And at the end of five, Carol discovers this giant locker, this giant freezer in an agricultural goods facility, and she looks underneath a tarp, and we are left to wonder for a full week what could possibly be under that tarp? Is it an alien carcass? Is it her? Is it Helen? Is it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, what is it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Where were you with it? Like, I think the most. The most obvious, I think I was.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, is it aliens? I really was like, is there a being that is running this kind of thing? That's just where my sci fi brain took me, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or, like, not to step on. Well, there was another show that we liked a lot this year, Sci Fi that might end up on our list, in which there is a discovery that the people we see might be replicants, basically, that, like, maybe everyone is on ice and the. The others are recreations of them. Something along those lines.

[Chris Ryan]

The fact that the next episode, the sixth episode, picks up right afterwards. So we're not gonna pretend, like, we're not gonna do a flashback. We're not gonna do somewhere else in the world. Like, it's really Carol bursting out of this the door of this freezer and then going right back in to film it. And then this whole mid season gambit they've adopted of Carol as a vlogger, I think is ingenious because it's obviously like learned behavior from YouTube without explicit, explicitly referencing YouTube and the Internet. But we get to kind of come to grips with it. And the funny thing was, is that when she did the reveal, and as like, I was like, I wonder what this is going to be, because I can't really think of what I would myself be scandalized by at this point in Carol's journey.

And she reveals that it's human body parts. And I noted the care and cleanliness with which they are restoring these people and their remains. And I think what this show is asking and what the show is sort of somewhat about is that one person's dystopia is another person's utopia, you know? Right. Especially this past episode with Diabate reenacting Casino Royale in the Westgate and living in a harem of women and really obviously, like, having the time of his life. Whereas Carol is at this kind of end of her rope state of loneliness and despair and alienation. And what Carol thinks is this, like, gotcha moment is in fact, like, this guy's like, yeah, I find it troubling, but they. They do have a pretty good explanation for it, you know, and this show is kind of about how. Well, I think what we used to think of as these sort of, like, universally agreed upon occurrences, like, what would happen if there was an alien invasion? What would happen if, you know, there was an outbreak of a virus in this world and we all had to deal with it. What happened in the last couple of years is I think we've shattered this idea of a collective response. We've shattered this idea of a collective experience. And this show is very slyly showing us how that happens. Even without the distortion of social media and the Internet, it's like, well, I don't know. I'm actually enjoying myself in this experience. So it's not my obsession to reverse this.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that's really brilliantly observed. I feel like one of the great.

Communal fictions of post World War II culture has been we are just one crisis away from a rallying cry. Do this again. We can roll up our sleeves and make Rosie the Riveter posters and defeat evil again. And it's like, if we had to.

[Chris Ryan]

Make jeans in this country, we could do it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, no problem. Independence Day would happen if given the right spark, I guess in that case, the destruction of the major cities and Bill Pullman elected president. We could take care of this stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

I could get behind that. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

One of the many things that the last few years have proven to us is that none of these.

[Chris Ryan]

This is.

[Andy Greenwald]

These are all complete fictions that, like, we are always going to be ourselves and our worst selves, and maybe sometimes we stumble towards shared moment of enlightenment, but increasingly that's harder and harder to come by. We all know people or maybe even parts of ourselves that didn't mind aspects of the pandemic. Like, there are parts of that that. That ring true that are so well represented in the show. I think the other thing that is so compelling about this past episode in particular was that Diabate isn't just. He's not written as a hedonistic lothario who is taking advantage of. Who's only taking advantage of a situation, because, let's be clear, he is 100% taking advantage of a situation. But the. The underlying text of it that we see when she spends more time with him is that he does seem to understand the rules of the game. He's chosen to play like, he talks to them. He also has sex with many of them, but he also listens to their point of view and treats them as a collective, which is relatively advanced, I would say, you know, much more so than a hastily written version of that character ever would be.

[Chris Ryan]

A couple other points I wanted to make about these last two episodes, specifically six is the old Aristotle Chestnut actionist character. And the idea, you know, obviously Gilligan has always been obsessed with process, has been delighted in showing the minute movements of a character as they put post its on a wall or make meth or whatever it is that they're doing. But I don't know that I've ever seen him tie character to behavior in a more successful way than he is with Carol. Because we have to talk about this Seahorn performance. I was talking with Kai before we started the show. He was like, I cannot believe how much of this show is just her on her.

[Andy Greenwald]

On her. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And is on her. And I'm starting to be mesmerized by the littlest things that this person is doing on screen. You know, how she exits her house, how she packs, how she waits for that phone message to be over. The look in her eyes when she finds out that the other survivors have been meeting on Zoom without her.

Her reaction when the Westgate billboard flashes that they understand and hear her and they don't. They won't be doing stem cell Research on her without consent. You don't need any flashbacks with Carol because you kind of understand everything about her from her movements and her actions and from, like, the little. You know, it's been interesting to go along this journey with her about her substance abuse issues and, like, her invoking heroin when she drinks, how she drinks, like, what happens to her when she drinks. But everything that they're doing with her is such a masterclass in writing in.

[Andy Greenwald]

That way and in performing. I think it's beautifully said. I think that the point you make about the voice message, one of the luxuries that being Vince fucking Gilligan buys you is that you see her calling again and you're like, well, they're not gonna play the message.

[Chris Ryan]

They cut away from this, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but he's like, no, we're not gonna cut away from it. And one of the reasons you don't cut away from it is because he can tell Apple what he wants to do with the show. But the other reason you don't cut away from it is because of the actor reacting to it. And one thing that I. I'm glad I. I'm glad I have an opportunity to circle back to that we didn't mention two weeks ago, is that when she does the. When Carol tests the sodium pentathol on herself, it is a masterclass in comedic acting that we have not seen her do, I think, since Rhea Seehorn's glory days on the sitcom Whitney, which is when I first became aware of her talents. Sure.

She'S super fucking funny. And again, it's just. She has a camera on herself, but we just have a camera on her.

It. What. What do you. Where are you. Tell me about your feelings about Paraguay and that journey. Because now these stories are clearly headed towards an intersection.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, so that's a really good example of the A B test of it's okay when racy horn does it, but when in another performer.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not even. It's not even about the performer. Let me re. Rephrase what I'm saying. Although I, you know, don't cut this. But I just. I mean, you sit there watching him go through these dials, and there is a little bit more of, like, an urgency of like. Yes, but you will hit something that you can't explain or that will be like, a radio signal, even though we don't understand what that radio signal is going to be. I felt fine about it. What I'm really marveling at is, did they shoot in Paraguay? Is this Albuquerque? But, you know, with Tile. Like, are they shooting on plates? Like, how do. What are they doing? Like, where are they shooting the show? And I want to get to that in a second. But the final moments of episode six.

And this guy, I think that's his mother, has been bringing him the food the entire time. But maybe he couldn't quite see that it was her, or maybe he did know that it was her. But his mother comes out of the shadows in Paraguay and tries to stop him before he drives off in his car. That I do not think is going to make it to New Mexico.

[Andy Greenwald]

It does. It seems unlikely. Although he does have some maps.

[Chris Ryan]

She's just like, what can we do for you? Just tell us.

[Andy Greenwald]

And can we answer any questions?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And his reaction is, you're not my mother. My mother was a. And that, first of all, like, on a character spectrum, locates him right next to Carol. These are two very.

Hurt people.

And the skepticism that he has about this project, that he's seeing, this idea of a collective, peaceful, harmonious society of people who are operating under one consciousness, even if they can represent themselves as loved ones or whoever. You know, Carol doesn't have the benefit of having Helen showing up at her door. Who knows what her reaction would be if Helen was there. But this is the example of, like, maybe be careful what you wish for. Because he's just like, my mother was meaner. You know, like, this isn't the same.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's wrong.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, this is wrong. And I thought that those closing minutes were just sublime, you know? And also, let's just say this show looks fucking exquisite. Like, they obviously have been getting so dialed over the last 15 years with how they want to shoot things in the Gilligan world and how they're gonna look. And he's got in house directors and talent that he recruits to do these things with him. But this show uses its budget in such a wise way, where the sets that they build or the locations that they choose to film in, they let their actors fully explore. And so they feel huge. Like, maybe they got to shoot at Westgate, I don't know, or a different casino or however they did that. But it felt like they could have gone into one of a hundred rooms in that casino. I felt like we could have followed that guy all over whatever city he's in in Paraguay. And it's just like, it's such an incredible use of, like, money for the point of creativity rather than just like, well, we'll. We'll just make some huge set piece soon.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also just continue to be in awe. And I think we're going to talk about this in the year end episode as well. Inevitably. But like, what he's choosing to show us and the vessel that he's chosen to deliver his thoughts and observations and story within. You mentioned the leftovers. We were joking about the leftovers at the top of the show. And how, as Damon Lindelof says it, and he said it to us, the change between season one, which has its fans shout out Mina Kimes. People love season one. But Daemon says that the difference to him between season one and season two is that he remembered that people sometimes laugh at funerals. Sure. And that there is a different way to react to even extreme situations that can be both surprising but also ring emotionally true in our human experience. And so much of the more expensive television of the last few years and decades has been about, well, how. What would be the most human way to react when your family is burned alive by a dragon or whatever the case may be. And it's generally because of the necessities of plot or the limits of some creative imagination. So I'm not trying to, like, do a drive by. I just mean it's hard to make this shit. It's often the most expected reactions, often done exquisitely. What I love about this scenario is what you were saying. It keeps surprising us. Like, what if there are the people who are the wrong people to be the heroes of a story? What if this is a story that doesn't require heroes? What if. And I'm thinking back to Jeff Hiller, Emmy Award winner Jeff Hiller's cameo a couple weeks, two weeks ago.

When he's saying what Helen thought about her books. Are you saying what he thinks? What they think about all books or all art? Or is Carol as good a writer as Shakespeare? And I'm like, yeah, this is the Internet. Yeah, the Internet is hateful and mean, et cetera. But it is also responsible for this, I think, pretty toxic flattening of criticism and understanding and appreciation of art. And we're saying this during, like, rapt week, when everybody's being told, like, good job. You listen to the same thing as everybody else. It's like, that's also part of our culture. And it's easy to pillory something for all the more obvious negative characteristics of it. But I love that the show is also willing to look at the potentially positive things and look at them a little bit sideways and to continue to be like, maybe, as you said a moment ago, maybe the end of the world isn't the worst thing for some people. Okay, then what, what do we do then?

[Chris Ryan]

I thought that the, the diabate scenes were excellent uses, excellent executions of what in a sloppier set of hands might be exposition dumps. He's privy to information that she's not. It's obvious that he's getting this information because he's simply more adept at talking to the others or the them. The they. And so it didn't feel like somehow he was like a scientist all of a sudden. He was just like, yeah, I just asked. You know, they're not happy about this information, but it is the case.

Carol's relief that she would retain bodily autonomy was interesting to me. There's an element of physicality, there's performance. I'm very curious about. I mean, I, I'm watching the show.

So delighted. I'm not getting ahead of myself to figure, try and figure out like where it's going or what it's doing. It feels very organic. Like it does feel like we're obviously on the path to these two characters meeting at some point. These two people who are, are, are the, the only two who are against what's happening in the world. But I like how moral and philosophical it is and the idea that we can't do anything unless you give us their permission. You give us your permission.

[Andy Greenwald]

I really like how anti Reddit it is now. I personally am not anti Reddit. Like I'm learning a lot about London food and also trains when I log on these days. So, you know, that's great for me.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, you mean like anti fan theory?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. What I mean is the questions here are very simple and the answers are also, so far relatively simple. Not saying that a great joining of human consciousness is not complicated. What I mean is, oh my God, they're eating people. Well, yes, here's why. What else could they do? And then we move on from there.

[Chris Ryan]

We're eating people because we can't harm anything.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And try and find fault with that. And I just think that it is such a rare. Let's talk about this more in year end. And if you believe this already about us, you're right that like sometimes we are rooting for and getting maybe overly excited about things that speak to a larger trend or anti trend in an industry that we care about and that we cover. But this show feels organically built from questions about character, about emotion and about humanity and about our moment. And I am going to do a drive by now. It is not a fair one. And I don't. Kai, don't Clip this the wrong way, but like, compare the elegance of this show so far to Severance, which is another Apple show that has its partisans, that is complicated, that is asking big questions, that is beautifully shot.

[Chris Ryan]

An element of science fiction as metaphor for contemporary dislocation.

[Andy Greenwald]

And yeah, and all I mean is just think about the development process and what it's become. I'm not even going to argue the collective use feelings about Pluribus season one versus Severance season two because they have their merits. And I'm not even interested in a one to one AB comparison here. What I mean is Severance was a brilliant spec script that was retrofitted into a 3, 4, 5 season spanning Odyssey driven by an aesthetic madman in Ben Stiller. And there's a lot of labor, and we've talked about in episodes that we've liked and didn't like about the actual storytelling labor to get to a place where Mark and Heli running mean something both in terms of the season and in terms of the series going forward. And look, no one can walk into the streamers and be like, I want to do this and get it green lit like Vince Gilligan can at this point. But I got to respect how elegant it is because of how he did this.

[Chris Ryan]

He's had a long term partner with Sony, right. He has.

Decades of experience across multiple eras of television. At this point he tells stories and now is partially, I think, if not fully responsible for the visual as well as the, you know, the, the written side of, of for sure of what we're seeing on screen. And like I, I think has the right instincts in that that he bet big on Ray Seehorn, that she could be what Bob Odenkirk was in the early seasons of Better Call Saul. Bob Odenkirk has talked about. He's like, I had no days off. I shot every day. I was in every scene of Better Call Saul except for the episode I directed, you know, and Racy Horn is essentially doing that here. She is, she is creating like a probably pretty indelible television character right in front of our eyes. And it's, it's really cool. It's really cool that I think that you can go through a year of television and we've, you know, we'll talk about this, but like you can have things that are good for what they are or nice executions of previously experienced material and oh, they did a nice little twist on that or I didn't. This was way better than it had any business being. This is, this is different. This makes me feel like there's still a lot we can do with this medium.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think you said it brilliantly. That said Landman 203. No, we don't. We. We can. We can circle back next week. I actually did have.

[Chris Ryan]

I just want to. Did you like Andy Garcia's finally getting to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Also, I really. You know what I really respected? They made him Cuban. They let him be Cuban, which is true to Andy Garcia's life. And I think that was nice. And heritage.

I do have a nice thing to say that maybe is a segue to what you were saying, which is that when the show does things that are maybe to a 4D chess player like Taylor Sheridan, kind of obvious and basic. Like have many of your cast members share a scene together and I'm at the Castle Club.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm like, there's a reason why TV shows do that. It works, it's charming, it's interesting, it's moving things forward. But second, the other thing that I have to say, and I mean this with no snark, when the show commits itself to showing us the process and peril of work in a field that I have absolutely no knowledge of.

[Chris Ryan]

Chemical spill was gripping.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was the Pit esque. This show is not as good as the Pit, but in the sense of here are people who are trained to do something, reacting to something that hope to God I never, ever, ever encounter. I found that incredibly compelling and gripping. And you can't have a chemical spill every week. Although I can't ever tell him what to do. It did remind me that there's still just like there's stuff here that is of interest. You just have to wade through so much shit to get to it half the time.

[Chris Ryan]

I agree with you that there is a procedure procedural show about just Tommy fixing stuff every week that I would still watch. It did and it didn't. Doesn't even need all of the family soap operatics Cooper inheriting things, whatever trip the Michelle Randolph character is on. Like, I. I would just be there for the like Tommy fixes a well this week.

[Andy Greenwald]

Somehow great with boss. I like the extra stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

Is the extra stuff. And sometimes it hits and sometimes it misses.

[Andy Greenwald]

You famously are much more liquid than I am. So maybe you can answer this better than I can. But like, if you are over leveraged. Like, like, Like Monty was. Yeah, like Monty was.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

On a scale of like 1 to 10 in terms of just like fiduciary savvy, how smart is it to walk into a public place, break a beer bottle over the head of your financial advisor and say, where's my money? It's all gone.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, Tom, it's not Tommy's money. It's Cammie's money. You know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, he's like, I know, but I'm.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, that's just how they shouldn't get that around. Like, that's how they solve problems for me. If I'm Monty, I just start to lose track of the Shell corpse, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think that's what David Ellison is doing in Riyadh right now? Is he in the Cattleman's Club? I just. He's shaking down Saudi wealth. I don't know. Where's my money?

[Chris Ryan]

It was great to see you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'll let you find out what happens in season two of the Chair company.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll let you go. Let you dry off. Thanks to Kai for recording us today. We'll put this up on Friday and then we'll be back. Day to discuss, I'm sure. More Landman. Whatever. Whatever. Tems boat.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thames.

[Chris Ryan]

Talk shows. Yeah, Tems talk. Thanks to everybody for listening. We'll talk to you soon.