‘Severance’ Season 2 Ultimately Existed Only to Serve Itself. Plus, ‘The White Lotus’ E6.

Summary

The Watch – March 24, 2025

Episode: ‘Severance’ Season 2 Ultimately Existed Only to Serve Itself. Plus, ‘The White Lotus’ E6
Hosts: Andy Greenwald & Chris Ryan
Main Topics: "The White Lotus" Season 3, Episode 6; "Severance" Season 2 Finale

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep dive into two buzzy, prestige TV juggernauts: the sixth episode of "The White Lotus" Season 3 and the season finale of "Severance" Season 2. Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan explore broader thematic questions around the journey of self, storytelling craft, and the emotional engagement (or lack thereof) of each series. The conversation is animated, skeptical, and self-aware, as the hosts volley between admiration for technical prowess and frustration about substance.

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"The White Lotus" S3E6 Discussion

Peak or Plateau? (13:10–14:24)

• Chris admits uncertainty whether the season is peaking or just priming for its climax. He finds the viewing experience enjoyable on a “scene-to-scene” basis but observes that the show’s memeification threatens to subsume its narrative.
• Quote (Chris, 13:42):
  "Piper Ngo and Leslie Bib smile and Walton Goggin's confused face almost are almost outsized compared to what is the show about this season?"

Episode Structure & Manipulation (16:54–18:23)

• Andy sharply critiques the episode’s opening, which depicts a character shooting himself in a scene quickly revealed as fantasy:
  • Quote (Andy, 16:54):
    "The opening of this episode... begins with Tim shooting himself and his family discovering it was. Was bullshit and was manipulative bullshit and the worst kind of manipulative bullshit. Because at this point in our collective T prestige TV viewing, we know it's not real."
• Both agree the fake-out was drawn out and somewhat indulgent.

Character Journeys & Spiritual Themes (18:24–24:31)

• Andy praises the episode's earnest exploration of self, specifically highlighting the internal, spiritual quests of Tim (Jason Isaacs), Rick (Walton Goggins), and Saxon (Patrick Schwarzenegger).
• The Tim/Monk scene (around 20:00) is singled out as a highlight:
  • Quote (Andy, 20:32):
    "That's the best scene of the season so far...suddenly his two to three episodes of Lorazepam Hayes felt like steps, sloppy stumbling steps on a path towards this moment."
• Chris draws attention to the effects of drugs on self-discovery and fraternal boundaries, with much of the cast undergoing transformations while under the influence.

Incest, Spiritual Malaise, and Societal Decay (22:16–25:19)

• The conversation candidly tackles the episode's incest subplot between brothers Saxon and Lachlan, interpreting it both as identity exploration and a metaphor for “the inevitable next step of a truly debased society.”
  • Quote (Andy, 24:06):
    "What the monk says is, you know, there's a spiritual malaise, there's. You've lost connection with the spirit. So what is left? Self identity, chasing money, pleasure. Everyone runs from pain towards pleasure. And...for certain class of people, the people who can afford the White Lotus, anything is possible as...everything is permissible."
• The hosts reference echoes of taboo relationships in previous seasons, connecting it to a larger theme of boundaryless privilege.

The Ladies Trip & The Nature of Fun (26:04–29:17)

• Chris fixates on the adult women's plot (Carrie Coon et al.) and the question of what constitutes "fun" on such lavish getaways. He singles out Coon’s performance for transforming even mundane actions into social commentary.
  • Quote (Chris, 26:30):
    "Carrie Coon should win an Emmy simply for eating fruit...she does such a wonderful job."
• Andy observes this plot is most reminiscent of previous "White Lotus" seasons and contains the “best emotional tension.”
• He also notes men’s crises are the main focus this year.

Dissolution of Self & Self as Prison (29:18–31:04)

• Walton Goggins' Rick is described as addicted not just to substances, but to the “armor of self”—actively choosing a path to self-destruction as it’s what is most familiar to him.

Chekhov's Gun and Narrative Padding (32:47–33:07)

• The hosts critique the gun subplot, noting its setup and unresolved status, and linking it to the show's mixture of carnal and criminal elements.

Belinda/Greg Storyline, Cultural Dissonance (35:40–39:08)

• The reappearance of Greg and Belinda’s son is acknowledged, with predictions of danger and reckoning in the season’s remaining episodes.
• Andy articulates "White Lotus’s" preoccupation with the impossibility of truly aligning Western and Eastern worldviews, with vacation becoming a fleeting “if only.”

Summary & Transition (39:10–42:06)

• The discussion wraps on the sense of looming collapse, or at least reckoning, for the show’s core characters.

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"Severance" Season 2 Finale: 'Cold Harbor'

Technical Prowess & Visuals (42:39–44:38)

• Andy insists on crediting the entire creative team:
  • Quote (Andy, 42:41):
    “Say other names...the production designer is Jeremy Hindle...costume designer Sarah Edwards. These guys are doing God tier work.”
• He singles out the marching band sequence as a highlight: “It was a Bravura visual experience and it was cut together so beautifully.”

High Concept, Low Payoff (44:38–47:09)

• Chris:
  • Likes the ideas and broader strokes (Helly’s “Luke, I am your father” moment, Mark vs. Mark, Milchick’s awakening to race), but feels “the way in which we build to these...I find myself just getting too frustrated.”
  • Observes the plot is often moved not by organic character decisions, but by the needs of the story.

Logic Holes & Low-Stakes Rebellion (47:09–50:38)

• The hosts critique the show’s convenience and lack of internal logic:
  • Why are security and oversight so lax in this all-powerful company?
  • Why is only one refiner “special”?
  • Why does Zach Cherry’s character exist other than to ask, “What the fuck is going on?”
• Andy:
  • Quote (49:03):
    "It is the nature of entertainment for it to be convenient. But the art and the challenge of writing is to obscure the convenience so it doesn't seem easy."

Marching Band as Metaphor for Absurdity (50:38–51:49)

• The marching band of severed workers is seen as performatively clever but logically absurd:
  • Quote (Andy, 51:09):
    "The implication is that every single one of these incredibly virtuoso young horn players is severed...So you can have A life year gear. And then every so often, you'll come play the horn here, but you won't remember it."

Severance as a “Closed Loop” (51:49–53:07)

• Andy’s central critique:
  • Quote (Andy, 51:49):
    "Severance as a show exists only to perpetuate severance. It's a closed loop...It's a puzzle coffin. Because all of the solving only leads to more of itself."
• The show is described as “about the act of being on the show,” full of “plot beats [with] a problem and a narrow solution…oppressive.”

Emotional Detachment & Importance of Craft (55:56–57:31)

• Praise for Adam Scott’s dual performance and the technical achievement of one character talking to himself via camcorder.
• Andy:
  • "What’s missing for me is that actual emotion is severed from the show in pursuit of its own mystery and in pursuit of further adventures up its own ass."
  • Questions whether the supposed core relationship (Mark and Gemma) is even meant to be moving.

Intriguing but Ultimately Hollow? (58:46–61:48)

• Chris admires the writers for painting themselves into a corner but finds the show less urgent or affecting than its influences.
• Andy sees it as more interested in its own framing than “the richness of one guy being split between the women he loves.” He suggests White Lotus, even at its most flawed, is ultimately earnest and engaging in ways Severance is not.

Criticism, Fandom, and Creative Resources (64:29–66:09)

• Both grapple with what it means to dislike a show that’s “so well-crafted, so indulgent, so expensive.”
• Andy:
  • "I genuinely do celebrate this show. I think it's awesome that they are able to do this. ...But as a viewer, I find it a frustrating and frustratingly expensive cul de sac."
• Chris admits to remaining “disappointed in the project, but curious about the response to the project.”

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Notable Quotes—Summary Table

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 13:42 | Chris | "Piper Ngo and Leslie Bib smile and Walton Goggin's confused face almost are almost outsized compared to what is the show about this season?" | | 16:54 | Andy | "The opening of this episode...begins with Tim shooting himself...was...manipulative bullshit. Because...we know it's not real." | | 20:32 | Andy | "That's the best scene of the season so far...suddenly his two to three episodes of Lorazepam Hayes felt like steps, sloppy stumbling steps on a path towards this moment." | | 24:06 | Andy | "You've lost connection with the spirit. So what is left? Self identity, chasing money, pleasure. Everyone runs from pain towards pleasure..." | | 26:30 | Chris | "Carrie Coon should win an Emmy simply for eating fruit...she does such a wonderful job." | | 42:41 | Andy | "The production designer...costume designer...God tier work. The show is a marvel to look at week to week." | | 49:03 | Andy | "The art and the challenge of writing is to obscure the convenience so it doesn't seem easy." | | 51:49 | Andy | "Severance as a show exists only to perpetuate severance. It's a closed loop...It's a puzzle coffin." | | 55:56 | Andy | "What’s missing for me is that actual emotion is severed from the show in pursuit of its own mystery..." | | 64:48 | Andy | "I genuinely do celebrate this show. I think it's awesome...But as a viewer, I find it a frustrating and frustratingly expensive cul de sac." |

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Final Thoughts from Hosts

• Both are still willing to discuss "Severance" due to the cultural conversation it generates, even as they find themselves emotionally uninvested in its mysteries.
• They are more enthusiastic about "The White Lotus’s" ambitions and character work, even if they occasionally falter on plot.
• The hosts end with a reminder that loving or hating a show is legitimate—what matters is engagement and curiosity as a viewer:
  • Quote (Andy, 66:09):
    "If you love this show, that is fucking great...The desire to be engaged with something like that is a good sign that it is not all meant to be, you know, just ephemeral. Second screen…"

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [13:10] — White Lotus S3E6 Breakdown Begins
• [16:54] — Critique of Episode Structure/Manipulation
• [20:32] — Tim’s Monk Scene and Spirituality
• [22:16] — Incest & Societal Decay Discussion
• [26:04] — Women’s Trip/Performances/Fun
• [29:18] — Race, Self as Prison/Themes
• [35:40] — Belinda/Greg/Western vs. Eastern Culture
• [39:10] — Summing Up White Lotus
• [42:06] — Severance Finale Begins
• [42:41] — Technical Praise
• [44:38] — Season Structure/Philosophy
• [47:09] — Logic Holes and Character Motivation
• [50:38] — Marching Band as Absurdity
• [51:49] — Closed-Loop Critique
• [55:56] — Performances & Emotional Detachment
• [64:48] — Final Thoughts on the Episode and Fandom

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Closing

An episode rich with critique, admiration for craft, and a recognition that emotional investment goes beyond logical plotting. "The Watch" continues its blend of pop culture obsession with critical skepticism, inviting listeners to wrestle with what they value in TV.

Transcript

[Chris Rye]

This episode of the Watch is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard the new season of HBO's original series the White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavored creamers. Thai iced coffee and Pina colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only, so for the love of coffee, go try them now.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Disney. Tron Aries is coming only in theaters October 10th. When sophisticated AI soldiers arrive from the digital world to invade ours, one soldier, Ares, goes against his programming and starts to think for himself. I love when this happens. He might be the only thing that could save humanity. See Tron Ares in IMAX in 3D. Only in theaters October 10th. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Paramount. Sylvester Stallone is back as the ultimate kingpin, Dwight Man Freddy, in the original hit series Tulsa King, streaming September 21, exclusively on Paramount. This season, as Dwight's kingdom expands, he faces his most dangerous adversaries in Tulsa yet, forcing him to fight for everything he's built. Stream the new season of Tulsa King, Sunday, September 21, exclusively on Paramount. Learn [e-mail] I need support staff to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Rye]

Hello, and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Rye and I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, chanting any liberation now, it's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

Campuses are cracking down on that sort of talk.

[Chris Rye]

You know, you could lose your funding.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. If you start talking about the plight of the innies.

[Chris Rye]

Andy, beautiful, beautiful friend. Welcome back.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm back.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. And we're going to do this show today on Severance and White Lotus, a couple of housekeeping things.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Rye]

You can email [e-mail] you can watch us at Ringer TV. That's the channel on YouTube. Or you can just watch us on the Watch feed on Spotify. You can listen to us wherever you get podcasts, you watch us if you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just touch a podcast.

[Chris Rye]

I prefer you listen to us on Spotify. You can follow us on Instagram thewatchpod. Guess what?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I'm going to Boston.

[Chris Rye]

I am going to be doing a rewatchable show on Thursday night for Good Will Hunting at House of Blues. But then me and Bill and Sean are gonna be kicking around the Coolidge theater all weekend. Coolidge Corner, baby. Brookline. We're gonna be there for a rewatchables film festival that we're curating and there's still some tickets available for some of the screenings. It's honestly all killer, no filler. Goodfellas, Heat the Town, the Verdict, Friends of Eddie Coyle, Spotlight Departed. Please come through. Please say hi. And that is all of my announcements.

[Andy Greenwald]

So like a men's rights weekend.

[Chris Rye]

I.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do. People don't realize, by the way, that you have real history in Boston. That's not just Bill City. No, I was going to let their rights. I was going to let that one lie. No. History's pendulum swinging back your way. You're good.

[Chris Rye]

Let's just.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, you have a history in Boston. It's not just Bill City that you live in.

[Chris Rye]

I lived in Boston for five years. I even liked a Trot Nixon, Troy o', Leary Leary era Red Sox team quite a bit.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was fun. I used to visit you there.

[Chris Rye]

I was thinking about the politics of wearing a Sox hat at any of these events. If I wanted to.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that would be bad for the brand.

[Chris Rye]

Well, okay. I think that some people do have American League teams.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. And I know several people who have their hometown team have now started to adopt soft adopts. The Dodgers.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm okay with it.

[Chris Rye]

Not me.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, not me, people. Because you and I believe that believe in the power and the beauty and the agony of local sports fandom.

[Chris Rye]

Birth. You were assigned a fandom.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. So if you are raised raising children here and they become Dodger fans. A way to be born on third base. 10 year contract for the college payments. But I then would get it. If you saw your child taking joy from a local team and you took them to games and you'd want them to share, I'm okay with that. Now that's not a problem I have because my children hate sports and love to tell me that and they also love denying me joy. But I'm largely okay with it. And also in case there actually were no CCTV cameras at the time. But we and many of our friends did adopt the 2004 Red Sox when they were beating the Yankees.

[Chris Rye]

If it was a choice between. Between two ferns, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Totally. Can I just one small bit of something or other. You know, I used to do a segment. You know, I love doing segments because I love an organized podcast. But we did used to do plane movies when I was flying a lot.

[Chris Rye]

I remember.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, we've kind of let that go. But I did want to just comment on this.

[Chris Rye]

Did you let go of the movies or did you let go of.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just. Raw dog now Just whenever I'm on a plane. No, I was flying back from Creature from the East Coast. You're the color God these days. Look, we can have these conversations. We're on video every day. I meet, like, I see you in the parking lot and I'm like, look at this guy. He's just killing it. Thank you. I was flying back and, you know, don't want to be a whiner, but it was quite a turbulent flight. Luckily I had some text messaging ability to reach out to my friend Steady Eddie here on the ground, talking me through it. But it was the most severe turbulence that I've experienced in quite some time. So turbulent that when, you know, there's like the. Look, we've let things slip a little bit in this country, right? Like the seatbelt sign is on and people are like, well, I still gotta go to the bathroom. And people just like get up and like, like to move around anyway.

[Chris Rye]

I kind of do that sometimes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sometimes you gotta read the room. And the room being the metal sky tube that's hurtling through wind shear. And it was so bumpy. This woman was trying to get back to her seat and it was rocking and rolling. It was doing. It was basically that flashback scene in Paradise.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

No spoilers. But on the plane that survives. And what the flight attendant said to the woman that I'd never heard before as she was sort of barely making it, clawing her way back to her row, and she was right next to me, and the flight attendant came up behind her and said, sit down, sit down, sit down. Right here. There, there, there. Because it was not safe for her to return to the row.

[Chris Rye]

It's probably a liability thing more than a we're going down thing. Right?

[Andy Greenwald]

So it's the point of the story, though, it's a little bit of a misdirect. It's not just that there was a woman forcibly instructed to squat on the aisle next to my row, which was great for the nerves. The zannies were kicking real good. It was that the person next to me on the flight, no matter how bumpy it got, could not be swayed from her plane viewing, which was episodes three and four of Adolescence.

[Chris Rye]

What I'm hearing is that one person on that flight was committed to this project, to this podcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

For what it's worth, I got through Severance. I got through Daredevil. I got through my favorite new show, Dope Thief, which we're not even talking about today. But I want to talk about the constitution of someone. Like, cause adolescence, even for people we're not gonna spoil it here for people who haven't watched it yet. We think it's the best show of the year. It is an incredible watch. Yeah, it is harrowing. It is hard to watch on furniture that is on steady ground.

[Chris Rye]

Second screening. Anything. Was she, like, also doing other stuff, or was it just like, I'm locked in?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think she had a mindfulness app also going. No, she was locked in, and she was just, like, doing the work. She was watching episode three, then she was watching episode four, and right around that moment when I was like, I will pay anything for this cursed WI fi just so I could send a final message to my friend and loved ones, I turned to see how she was doing. You like to see how other people's faces were.

[Chris Rye]

I love you, but can I just. Can I give a outsider's perspective on how this flight went?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

You announced to me that you were, like, not signing up for wi. No, not paying for WI fi on this flight. Talk to you in six hours. We can figure out our schedule then.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I won't name names, but I'll say these guys are no longer that friendly.

[Chris Rye]

55 minutes later.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, there's free Wi Fi for 20 minutes.

[Chris Rye]

I have signed up for free Wi Fi to tell you my severance takes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't tell you my takes. I just sent you a series of emojis that I will now turn into takes on this podcast.

[Chris Rye]

Then you seem to. Did you get, like, another free 20 minutes after an hour or two? Like, because you jump back on to be, like, very turbulent on this flight.

[Andy Greenwald]

I jump back on. I'm not shitting you. I jump back on because it was so turbulent. I was like, I should compose some thoughts to my daughters.

[Chris Rye]

But you texted me.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was text.

[Chris Rye]

Oh, you're texting a lot of people. Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

I throw a wide net in the last moments of my life, as it turns out. But in that moment when I was looking for comfort and looking to my fellow man and woman to be like, how should we feel about this? All I saw was Eddie and Manda's tearful scene in the bedroom in adolescence 104, Stephen Graham just weeping into a pillow. Like, that's me right now.

[Chris Rye]

You know, I don't want to get carried away with plane stories, but if I told this story before, about the last time I thought I was going to die, I was on a flight from Chicago to Philly.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And we were just going. And I was seated. Seated next to a guy. Was. Aisle, aisle. Seated next to a guy. Who had like five transfusions. You know, like vodka, grape juice, or whatever drinks.

[Andy Greenwald]

They're called transfusions on the golf course.

[Chris Rye]

They are. And otherwise it's like Welch's and vodka, I guess.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Rye]

And this guy was playing video games. He's older. Like my age. Younger.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was a. That was a journey.

[Chris Rye]

Well, no. Playing video games the entire time and just kind of like listening to tunes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Drinking vodka.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sick.

[Chris Rye]

And then we fucking dropped 90ft straight down, like Tower of Terror style. And he started crying.

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Rye]

And the kicker is he was a huge Arizona Cardinals fan. I guess he was wearing all Arizona Cardinals gear. And the only thing I could think about is just like, I can't believe I'm about to die next to an Arizona Cardinals fan. After all the pain they've caused the Eagles over the years, I thought you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Would turn to him, be like, I guess you'll never really know about Kyler, huh? Like, I guess. I guess we'll never be sure if he's a Max guy or not.

[Chris Rye]

I know. Is he elite? All right. Painful. Should we get into the television shows that dominated the weekend?

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to do Lotus first. I don't know if you had an agenda.

[Chris Rye]

That's fine, man. We can do Chekhov's hand job.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, do you.

[Chris Rye]

You think that's gonna come up again? Think that might bode bode for the future.

[Andy Greenwald]

You think Saxon's gonna come up again?

[Chris Rye]

We can definitely do White Lotus before severance, if you'd like to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, last thing. Do you wanna mention the Andor trailer that drop today?

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, I had a little bit of a philosophical crisis because I think we should only have one trailer for any given piece of content. I almost don't even want another one. Battle after another teaser. Yeah, which the teaser for the teaser, to me is enough to know that that movie is worth $500 million. I don't care how much zazzle I've had to pay for it. And I feel like that first Andor trailer was cool. The behind the scenes making of was cool. The third is basically everything you expect from Anador trailer. It's shots from behind of people walking. It's people talking about revolution, and it's people staring up at the sky at stuff going past them. The only thing you need to know is that, you know, there's a lot of Death Star talk in this one. Any thoughts on it? April 22nd is when the.

[Andy Greenwald]

I missed Steve Earle. No, I thought. I think this trailer is fairly perfect. And we couldn't be more excited about the Show. They had us at rebellion. They had us at andor we were already there. Yeah, I think that we are going to be saying variations of this for the next few weeks and months, but this show continues to be everything that we ever wanted from the evolution of our childhood entertainment. Truly, it truly is. We have spent a decade not even talking like relitigating the Amblin movies or Star wars movies of our youth, but also talking about this next generation of blockbusters and going through the Marvel Universe, the highs, the lows, the Sokovias. And throughout, we continue to bump up against something that these movies just haven't. They're. They just are unable to grapple with, which is that if you lift an entire Eastern European country off of the earth and drop it back down again, the body count and the lasting generational trauma is probably serious. But this movie is about making Scarlet Witch the hero that she needs to be. So we move on. This trailer alone is decades worth of emotional spackle from our original Star wars experience. They're like they are building a weapon in a rising fascist state. What can any one person or droid do about it? Yeah, and certainly not relevant to today, but I think it's. It's pretty fucking exciting.

[Chris Rye]

It looks great.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I wonder what the. I am too. I respect myself too much to look, but I do wonder what the die hard Star wars redditor people think about this, considering I think they're all out.

[Chris Rye]

There and they're like, why did you guys abandon the no depression alt country genre and not have a Gillian Welch song or something playing over this trailer?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what the Arizona Cardinal fan who might be older than you thinks.

[Chris Rye]

Okay, so let's get into White Lotus. Yeah, it was the sixth episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

One funny bit is we never know how many episodes there are. I think our listeners love it.

[Chris Rye]

It's the sixth episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no. But of how many?

[Chris Rye]

I have no idea.

[Andy Greenwald]

See, we have no idea.

[Chris Rye]

One of the reasons I have no idea is that I can't tell whether or not this show is peaking or getting ready to peak. I think it's the latter. I think it's getting ready to peak. I remain kind of steadfast.

[Andy Greenwald]

In my opinion, there is eight episodes. We do know that.

[Chris Rye]

So two more left. I am very much enjoying the experience of watching it on a scene to scene basis. I will note that I feel like this season it's almost feeling like the memeification of the show seems to be subsuming the show itself to the extent that you care about that and that you're engaging with that kind of stuff. But Piper Ngo and Leslie Bib smile and Walton Goggin's confused face almost like are almost outsized compared to the what is the show about this season? There are certain parts of it that I find quite moving. There are certain parts of it that I find a bit dull. What was your take on the sixth episode?

[Andy Greenwald]

So I, you know, we talked about the fifth episode which was paced as if it was a rip roaring edge of your seat thriller, but I found kind of lacking in the concrete details of it. Like it almost didn't earn the quick cuts and tension builds. You know, as we talked about last week, I'm like, I just sort of reject the stakes of Piper's gap year being so crucial. This episode I thought was really interesting because I think others have already said that it felt like kind of.

[Chris Rye]

Is that because you don't think young women should take a year off from college and just decide what they want?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think young women should get as far away from America as possible, to be honest. Girl dad. But this episode was in some ways like a B side or the denouement of the previous episode. I found it strangely compelling, the most compelling episode of the season so far. So much so that I did something that I rarely do or rarely have time to do, which is rewatch parts of it. And I found it very, very rewarding. And it made me think that I.

[Chris Rye]

Have a new lease on life.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was reborn. You should have seen me in the laxic.

[Chris Rye]

You are the daredevil reborn. Did you watch White Lotus with a visor on just to hear it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Right? Yeah, I don't. I take it in with all of my senses. I think that I felt more attuned with the project of the season, which I think has a higher degree of difficulty than it might be getting credit for and is pretty subtle. And thus it's not it's definitely not hitting the way previous seasons have in terms of reward on plot investment or twists and turns at this point of the season. I also want to begin with a slight criticism before we get into these larger projects that I'm alluding to, which is for all the praise we give Mike White for just really being a pros pro and knowing how to deliver action plot character with economy and efficiency with like a winking knowledge of the medium that he's working in the original time we started talking. We've been talking about that way since the first shot of the first season where you see a body and then you flash back and you're like, well, now it's just injected, you know, it's like, it's like. What's the phrase I was reading about how people who like to put a zin in their mouth and chase it with a Celsius.

[Chris Rye]

Oh, they gave that a name.

[Andy Greenwald]

Transfusion.

[Chris Rye]

Somebody gave that a name.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, yeah, I just saw that. So like that, that's, that's what that did.

[Chris Rye]

But they were almost acting like it was like a level, like a speedball. And I'm like, it's just speed. Like a Zin and a Celsius will just take you out.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's speed and having a ball.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. I think a Zin and a beer is where you want to be.

[Andy Greenwald]

You said that with such conviction. That's just you in Boston. Anyway, I have to say that, like the opening of this episode, and it begins with Tim shooting himself and his family, discovering it was. Was bullshit and was manipulative bullshit and the worst kind of manipulative bullshit. Because at this point in our collective T prestige TV viewing, we know it's not real. Well, and we know that he knows that we know it's not real.

[Chris Rye]

He let it go on a little long for it to be. I, I never for one second thought it was real, but I, I thought he let it go on. He played it out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Really let like, let everyone have their reaction.

[Chris Rye]

Scream had Piper run over. I felt like it was like, oh, you're pushing this to the extent that.

[Andy Greenwald]

You can and giving us a artificial hit of what the show is not giving us, which is blood and guts and screaming and like more bass. Primal plot.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, we're changing a lot. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Careful, careful, comma, brother. So I thought that was weirdly manipulative and maybe an example of him, of Mike. Can we call him Mike at this point, not trusting, maybe getting a little squirrely about his project here, which to me is suddenly a really, really interesting and really, really earnest investigation of the journey of the self.

[Chris Rye]

Uh huh.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is so fucking hard to do in a television show for any number of reasons. One of which is that a journey of the self is essentially internal.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And two, television is a medium that really happens in scenes with dialogue in them. So to watch this episode again and see certain aspects of it, particularly the disillusion or the slow disillusion of three of the primary main characters over the course of this hour, and that's Jason Isaacs as Tim Radliff, that's Walton Goggins as Rick, and Patrick Schwarzenegger as Saxon. I found it really, really earnest, if flawed, but really compelling. And I was more drawn into this episode and the season because of it, watching it that way.

[Chris Rye]

You know, I was trying to think about the conversation that Greg and Tim have earlier in the season on the boat where I think. I can't remember actually whether Greg or Tim. I think the idea of, like, people only come to Thailand because they're running from something or looking for something. Right. And whether or not you can apply that to all of the characters on the show, you know, like, what are each one of these people doing? I think it works for some individuals and then probably broadly for some groups, but the tension of the show and perhaps sometimes the frustration of the show, but also I think the success of White Lotus as a project is the balance of the, like, melodramatic Greg finds Belinda on a pathway, or, you know, Kate sees Jacqueline Valentin leaving Jacqueline's villa or whatever. That kind of stuff combined with Piper, Rick, to some extent, Chelsea, they're kind of questing on an almost, you know, kind of spiritual level. And I don't know that necessarily for me, it's all coming together the way other seasons did. But I do think that you're right. There is something in this season that is actually pretty profound. And I did really like the scene, even with Tim in the Monk.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the best scene of the season so far. I thought. I thought that scene was incredible. And so much of it is about Jason Isaac's performance. And I don't know how the White Lotus works. There are some shows that famously only give their actors a script at a time, both because maybe they haven't written the other scripts yet, or because they're like, we want you to play the moment, not the future of the character. But I can't help but think, I mean, Jason Isaacs is an elite tier actor, but I couldn't help but think that he has been checking his own internal journey because suddenly his two to three episodes of Lorazepam Hayes felt like steps, sloppy stumbling steps on a path towards this moment.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

It felt absolutely cumulative and reasonable and understandable that from everything from the look on his face to how few words he had to offer and how much he needed to hear what came back at him relatively pro drug season.

[Chris Rye]

Because when you think about it, I mean, okay, my point is this, that the drugs being imbibed on this season are leading people to the place where they needed to go. You know, like Saxon and Lachlan. Pretty, pretty handsy. Anyway.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Rye]

That was obviously, like, confronts Saxon with, we don't have to change the subject from what you were talking about, Tim. No, but, you know, obviously, I think the thing that everybody's gonna be talking about or is talking about after this episode is the fact that Lachlan gave his brother a hand job.

[Andy Greenwald]

You keep wanting to talk about that, but yet you also talked about edging. So, like, do you want to. Do you want to see?

[Chris Rye]

You just can't pin me down.

[Andy Greenwald]

Ye.

[Chris Rye]

But, you know, those guys are. You know, you could blame the Molly, or you could just say that, like, there's something like this guy was rubbing one out in front of his brother a couple days ago.

[Andy Greenwald]

So a couple. Like, I do want to talk about the spirituality in the Tim part, but let's. Let's go to where you most want to talk about, which is just two boys in bed together, two brothers. I think that there are a number of ways of looking at the scene, and I do think that there. That Mike White, the director, deserves a lot of credit for the way that he did something. Again, subtle but artful, which is. Made us understand how each of those characters was remembering and when and in what capacity they were remembering it. Like that that was. That was doled out effectively. I think that there is a way of looking at it that is relevant, that is related to the Sam Rockwell monologue, which is about, you know, the armor of self and having to give up the things you think you want versus the things you want to be, what you want to do and what you want. And so in that version of it, yeah, we saw in the pilot, Lachlan was. He wants to know how to be his older brother. Like, to be a man in the world. The way that he is.

[Chris Rye]

Inside of him are the two siblings. You know, he's. There's part of him that has the very, like, sensitive, caring side that Piper is, and then there's part of him that wants to impress the Alpha Saxon.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or see what it would be like. He's trying these identities on for size because he, you know, is he going to go to UNC or Duke? That's the real fundamental choices. And so in that version of it, when they are out of their heads and they're in a place that doesn't matter, and they're literally unmoored and they're on a boat and it doesn't count. It's just then he is trying to see what to be both of these people in that moment. I think there's also an interesting angle to look at this definitely the season as a whole, which is just incest as the inevitable next step of a truly debased society. When the monk says things like that.

[Chris Rye]

You'Re talking about our society.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm talking about the podcast community. No, like what the monk says is, you know, there's a spiritual malaise, there's. You've lost connection with the spirit. So what is left? Self identity, chasing money, pleasure. Everyone runs from pain towards pleasure. And. And you know, for certain class of people, the people who can afford the White Lotus, anything is possible as. What's the guy's name, the German guy who's going to sing next week?

[Chris Rye]

Fabian. Fabian.

[Andy Greenwald]

Everything is permissible. Everyone has questionable pass. Right. And you know, at this point you were talking so. So it's like failed, failed state. Like end of Rome, Caligula like. Or royal family. Just like what else is there to be done and experienced? These people are so removed from day to day concerns and day to day people and also day to day restrictions of what's allowable, permissible. And I was seeing this. I did not remember this, but that there were. I saw a few other people writing online about echoes of incest in previous seasons. I'd forgotten that the. The Tom Hollander Leo Woodall relationship.

[Chris Rye]

They were supposed to be. It was supposed to be his uncle.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

He's like, you fuck your uncle?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Turns out he didn't. But that was the suggestion of that. And then even like smaller echoes that like Imperioli and his son both sleep with the same woman.

[Chris Rye]

And the father. Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think he does. I think he has a lot of comments about it. Do you think. Does he sleep with all members that night?

[Chris Rye]

I can't remember. Yeah, I don't think so.

[Andy Greenwald]

Seems like something you'd remember, Chris. Seems like something you were dialed in on.

[Chris Rye]

The idea of fun is also something I've been thinking about and you know, because why do people go on these trips? You know, and they. There's usually a stated reason early on in the season. Like we came here to get more in touch with our family's heritage or we just have money to burn, so we decided to come here.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or I want to be with my friends from childhood.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. Or we're so busy, but we want to bring the family together for these things.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Unplug. And then what people do to facilitate that. Which, you know, for I. The Jacqueline Kate and Laurie plot, it hasn't fully connected to the rest of what's going on yet. Maybe. But just because they have not done a lot of Greg stuff, you know, and they have not been on the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Greg boat or done or invited necessarily to the party that's coming.

[Chris Rye]

And they remain my favorite characters. Carrie Coon should win an Emmy simply for eating fruit. Because the way she eats fruit and specifically the way she holds her cutlery is such a reflection of that character. It's such a great choice. I actually, not to be weird, would love to know how Carrie Coon eats fruit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Ordinarily call you, like, call her husband your friend?

[Chris Rye]

I could, but I don't want to be inappropriate, but I would just say she does such a wonderful job. I love Kate Leslie Bibbs performance this year. Even her phone acting when she sees Jacqueline. Yeah, like some great little facial expressions, but they have. They are kind of like searching for what does it mean to be on a trip together with people that you've been friends with since 10th grade, but also been like kind of betraying since 10th grade and disappointing since 10th grade. And do we go out and get fucked up and go into like a water gun fight in town? Do we just sit by a pool constantly? Like, what is it? Do we. Do we achieve Zen through wellness? Like, what is it that we're chasing? I like that idea a lot. Like, and I think a lot of the characters are doing that. I think the idea that Saxon has that his body is a temple and that he is the drug.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

And what happens to him when he lets something into his temple.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Rye]

Did the real Saxon come out? I don't know. I mean, like, you know, there's always that debate about do chemicals and intoxicants. Are those. That's not me. That was that that was the drug or is it. That was always inside of me. The drug just let it out.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that the ladies trip plot individually or like just, you know, just if you just zero in on that and blot everything else out. I think has some of the best scene to scene acting and some of the best jokes and best emotional tension. I think it's also arguably the most white lotus plotline in that that plotline feels like it could have been played out in season one or season two if they had been like, you know, super sized episodes or something. It seems to me that the real focus of this season is not unlike adolescence, what's wrong with men? And so that storyline so far does not have as much to say about that.

[Chris Rye]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I think that like Walton Goggins journey and I. And I saw an article the other day saying that like he, he has been saying in press that like how.

[Chris Rye]

Hard he Found a pleasant experience for him.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's so committed to the hollowed out nature of this character. He's. You were talking about drugs, like, so far through this season, he's the biggest drug addict to me because his addiction is to his own sense of self.

[Chris Rye]

And pot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, there's pot. But every single thing that he does is a choice. When he keeps saying, this guy killed my father. I have to find him. Maybe I won't kill him, but I have to have those 10 minutes. You understand that, right? I need to confront him. I need to do these things. He doesn't. That is the version of himself that, though uncomfortable, is the most familiar and feels the safest. So he is actively putting one foot in front of another on what might be a slow walk to hell. It might be his doom. With Chelsea, it's like a reverse Orpheus and he's Eurydice, and Chelsea's just sitting up on top being like, okay, bro, I'm waiting for you. I'm not ashamed. I told you, I'm letting the big dog out today.

[Chris Rye]

You're like, I lived.

[Andy Greenwald]

We haven't even gotten to severance yet. This is. This. I should have said this at the top. My performance on today's podcast, my dream is that I am Bugs Bunny holding the gun, going back to the old me. Lord, forgive me. Time to go back to the old me. So just heads up, Heads up on that. But do you know what I mean? That, like the idea of self as a prison and that. That gets echoed by reverse Orpheus. Yeah, you didn't. It sounded worse if I keep saying it, but yeah, um, self as a prison and everything we do is a choice. I mean, that is echoed by the monk. Um, Tim is certainly feeling it, and I. I think it was. And I. And I really, for the first time, felt the arc of the Saxon character because he is. He is losing every single thing about his own definition of his self. And then he's. He's inevitably about to find out that he also has no money.

[Chris Rye]

Well, also, this man that he's.

[Andy Greenwald]

And his idol, his false God, basically is empty.

[Chris Rye]

What does he turn to? Do you think Saxon winds up going to the monastery?

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, it's interesting that Lachlan's going to spend the night there. That it will be comfortable that this is, you know, in Piper. What's her line like? She would rather die than be without. She just doesn't have it in her to struggle. She says. I think it's. Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Is she just talking about herself there, though?

[Andy Greenwald]

You know she was. Yeah. Who do you think she was talking about?

[Chris Rye]

No, are you talking about Piper Talking about her or.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm sorry. They didn't mean Piper. I meant Parker.

[Chris Rye]

Parker Posey.

[Andy Greenwald]

Parker Posey, whose character's name is Victoria. God, this is so hard to keep up with. We're watching a lot of TV right now. No, no. When she says about herself, she says she hasn't. She's like, but you won't lose everything. Tm.

[Chris Rye]

Oh, right. Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

She said, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't.

[Chris Rye]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think I'd have the struggle. Which led to the second fake fantasy of him shooting her and then shooting him, as if that was some sort of kindness. Like, to be clear, like, I am now, I'm more locked in to what the season is doing than I have been at any other point. That said, there is some soft padding that I think that I still bump on a little bit. And I wonder if there are people who are finding the season, you know, so demonstrably inferior to other seasons, are so frustrating in terms of how it's using its real estate that this would matter more. But, like the arc of the great playwright Guy Talk's gun, like, if you just pull it. Pull it out of the season thus far, they give him a gun, he loses it immediately when Tim takes it. Tim holds it for a while, has.

[Chris Rye]

A couple of fantasies.

[Andy Greenwald]

Has a couple fantasies, puts it in a drawer, and Guy tucked, goes and finds it, and no harm, no foul.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. Well, I. I would imagine that the gun will come back. I would be kind of stunned if the gun does not come back into play, especially since gun violence, apparently, that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Gun will be discharged.

[Chris Rye]

And also, if you look at it and it's like all these little plot lines and subplots are on a mixing board. I think that he has been emphasizing the carnal pleasures of the. Of the. Of the resort for the first two thirds of the season. And now I think he's probably gonna have to dial those down and push up the crime element just because otherwise, like, you know, that's two episodes where it's like, well, what are Belinda and Greg? How does that resolve itself? How does Rick get what he wants?

[Andy Greenwald]

And from Scott Glenn, by the way, is playing that part.

[Chris Rye]

Scott Glenn is playing the husband Kun, Jim. Yeah, Scott Glenn, famously, you know, when he goes to Asia for projects, he's not. He's, you know, in Apocalypse now, for instance, he's supposed to be the guy who first goes up to find Marlon Brando.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

And they cut him out of the movie, kind of.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was about to say, did I not see Scott in one scene?

[Chris Rye]

I think in the theatrical cut and I think there's a little bit more of him in a director's cut. But it'll be interesting to see, like, how much Scott Glenn do we get? I didn't see the scenes from next week, so I don't know if it's the two of them talking. I love Scott, but when Scott Glenn goes to Asia, things, things get a.

[Andy Greenwald]

Little nutty when he goes to Australia too, if you remember in the leftovers. So anything.

[Chris Rye]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

10 hour flight. Get ready for a different kind of Scott Glenn.

[Chris Rye]

Anything else about this episode before we move on to your beloved severance?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I feel like we should probably. Well, two things. I mean, I say this, there's no way that this isn't going to end with some potential, some jokes. But I, I, I know week to week we're like, as only children, we don't really get it. Yeah. But even as, like, I do wonder, like, so what is, like, what is the benchmark moral response to brothers giving each other handjobs? Is that like, you could tell me, like, you could be like, oh, there's, there's a, there's a whole line of literature about how that happens in some households.

[Chris Rye]

I'm not saying whether or not I've ever done Molly, but had I done Molly, I think the craziest thing that ever would have happened is I tried to get a girl to open a bar with me in the Bahamas, you know, and so getting into a devil's threesome with your brother.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Rye]

Is a little bit beyond my realm of experience. And so it's hard for me to comment. I also just don't have a brother. So you know what I mean.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hey, Kaya, could you be our sibling correspondent for a second here?

[Chris Rye]

This is inappropriate.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is all on record. So Spotify HR can vouch this. I just want to know if you as a sibling haver, have any thoughts about this interaction. Yeah, Big.

[Chris Rye]

No go for me on that one.

[Andy Greenwald]

See, Big. That's, I don't know how they do it in that family, but there you go. See, it's. We're all just Ed Rooney. We're all just watching. The last thing is the Belinda storyline, which the two things we were sort of waiting to happen have now happened. Her son has shown up at a inappropriate but sort of cute time. He's supportive of his mother's romantic entanglements. And Pornchi seems like a pretty decent guy. Yeah, seems like it. I mean, he's not the first person to offer to open a spot with Belinda, so she's not necessarily going down that block again, but I thought that was sweet. And then Greg Gary hops out of the bushes, as you alluded to earlier, and invites her up to the big house on the hill.

[Chris Rye]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Common sense would say, don't go. The laws of two episodes left in a television season suggest that she probably will be going.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah, I mean, it seems like he's inviting as many people as possible. I don't know. It depends on what she's. Again, what are these people in these various places for? Like, why is she here? Is it really just to learn healing techniques? Is it to spend quality time with her son? Is it to get closure on a chapter of her life? You know, and obviously that would endanger her, but at the same time, you're curious, like, what. Can she just move on from this without knowing what happened to Tanya and actually understanding, like, what happened to that whole experience that she had?

[Andy Greenwald]

The thing that. This is hard to articulate, but, like, this idea that's really encapsulated not just by this episode, but by the monk that just Western society and Western thought is pain and pleasure is. I mean, I don't want to. I'm not even trying to say this as if I have some wisdom or like, I don't want to make a pejorative, but is degraded in some way or at least so wildly aligned away from Scotland. Listen, when I was reading ancient Greek myths back in Providence. No, but. But. But that it is. It is almost impossible to have two. A tradition, stereotypical in some ways, traditional Western worldview and Eastern worldview. It is incredibly hard for them to align. And, you know, I think anybody who travels in Asia, particularly for a vacation, is blown away by the enormity of the difference in experience and perspective and worldview, and you can barely even scratch it. And then you're suddenly back, you know, watching adolescence in the sky with someone crouched in the aisle next to you, and then you're. And it's over. And it's an idol. It's an idea. It's like a tantalizing if only. Right. I think that this season of the show is smartly running towards that dissonance and is really taking characters who are puffed up when they get off the boat because of every single thing that they cling to to make them feel important or worthwhile. And even for a character like Laurie, it's even though she would never say it, it's her friendship with Jacqueline that gives her some status or some opportunity to escape the drudgery, to have luxury. Sure, right. But. So we're headed towards a moment of reckoning for all these characters with their journeys of self or their denial of self or whatever. But it's gonna wrap up and they're gonna go home. So what's interesting about the White Lotus to me is that it does the project itself is the limited nature of these encounters. And it's almost again, it's almost too big for six episodes. It's like it's been both too long with padding, but also somehow this isn't long enough.

[Chris Rye]

I hear you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like when Sam Rockwell agrees to he agrees to Bugs Bunny meme and do something for his friend. He takes off his, his bracelets, you know, and he says, like, fuck it, let's go. Yeah, like there. Lord forgive him. He's about to go back to the old hymn.

[Chris Rye]

At least he's not on the sauce again.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's two episodes left.

[Chris Rye]

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[Andy Greenwald]

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[Chris Rye]

You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh.

[Andy Greenwald]

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[Chris Rye]

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[Andy Greenwald]

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[Chris Rye]

Season finale of Severance.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. We've had a couple days now to let it marinate.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. Cold harbor directed by Ben Stiller. Essentially Mark versus Mark with some other stuff going on, you know, and I want to just kind of let you cook for a second.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no, no.

[Chris Rye]

Well, okay, I can guide you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I. I can start with a couple.

[Chris Rye]

I have a lot of notes. I don't have a lot of like. I mean, I thought maybe we could start at the ending.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, can I do one broader thing first?

[Chris Rye]

Why? I said I just want to let you cook.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, I appreciate that. But this is even regardless of the episode, like you said, Ben Stiller the director, Jessica Lee Gagne the cinematographer. Like, I feel like it is really important when talking about the show and at the start, before we talk about any criticisms we may have and I feel like you and I may have some to say other names that I'm pulling from the always correct IMDb.com, but the production designer is Jeremy Hindle. The art directors see a lot of Chris Shriver and Bartek, Frank Duran, set decorator David Schlesinger, costume designer Sarah Edwards. These guys are doing God tier work. The show is a marvel to look at week to week. And I have issues before, I have issues after. But the scene, but the marching band scene, which I'm sure we're gonna get to, was a Bravora visual experience and it was cut together so beautifully. Jeffrey Richmond, I think, is the lead editor on the show. Even, like the subtle things, like Sandra Bernhard's line of let's go just as the drums hit. Tramell Tillman, like, I reject and really get actually honestly exhausted by the knee jerk. Like, give that man an Emmy. That happens when anyone likes anything.

[Chris Rye]

Get a lot of that on your Facebook feed.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, yeah, but he will get nominated for this, and he may deserve it. I think he's a beautiful performer. I think he's great. And he was amazing in that scene. It is impossible to be critical of severance without. And it's irresponsible to be critical of severance without, I think, talking about the craft that goes into it, because I thought that was dazzling. And I really, really liked the experience of watching that long sequence.

[Chris Rye]

So I have some things I liked as well. I think that if I had a unifying statement or theory of severance this season, it's that I, I like where it ends up. And I. And I, I. I don't like the journey to get there. So conceptually or philosophically or in terms of thinking about the show, I like the idea of Helly having a Luke Skywalker, I am your father moment with Jaime, you know, that kind of pose with the pen and her being like. But I see in you here, you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Know, like, so that he is. He loves the innie daughter more than the Audi daughter.

[Chris Rye]

The spunk of the innie daughter more than the kind of company woman. Yeah, I like the idea of market war with himself. It's just a good. It's a. It's a good thing. And I never really saw it coming, frankly. Maybe I wasn't thinking about the show hard enough, but as the reintegration process was being kind of, I would say, vaguely discussed with Rugabi and. And then Cabel, who. Part of that plot feels very like we don't really know what's going on because of the. The way that they kind of made a call to the bullpen midway through to get Rigabi out and Cabela in. But, like, Cabela isn't actually on the show this season. Like, she's in two, two or three real scenes and then has her own episode. But I like the idea of any mark who is at a different place in his even, like, psychological and emotional development than Audi mark, Outy Mark, manipulating any mark to get what he wants and vice versa. And any mark eventually making this, you know, sacrificial choice, both in terms of sacrificing what Gemma will experience. In the outside world, but also possibly committing himself to a life of whatever he doesn't know as he and Heli run off down the red light. I think that's a cool image and it's a cool idea. I like the idea of Milchick rejecting decades of indoctrination because he can no longer ignore the racist overtones of the institution which he finds himself. I like the idea of a massive corporate complex with hidden doors and elevators that only go in one direction, but the way in which we build to these. I like that idea. Like the steps we take to get there. I find myself just getting too frustrated with. Too frustrated with the questions not asked, or too frustrated with the preponderance of questions that do get asked. I mean, most of Zach Cherry's dialogue this year is, what the fuck? What the fuck is going on? Where the fuck is this person?

[Andy Greenwald]

Except when he is inexplicably writing a letter saying, it's important to me because I like you being there, which seems to be a sentiment that exists solely so that he can be there. Do you know what I mean? That's.

[Chris Rye]

That's what I'm getting at.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's sort of a.

[Chris Rye]

Like that. And that's a tautology of, like, Devin going from being very kind of skeptical of this entire enterprise to just kind of being like, I stand next to Harmony and. And facilitate experiments on your brain.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, there are.

[Chris Rye]

And also now, like, we can do severance outside. So, I mean, I guess we could always do it at the birthing center, but, like, sure, you can just jump.

[Andy Greenwald]

In and out, have a little chat inside, outside. It's how we want to live in California. There are moments, and there's also, like, moments of wit that are still welcome. Like, I thought, oh, my God, I don't have his name in front of me. My Icelandic homie, my big Guy Drummond plays Mr. Drummond, but I feel like I should give the guy a shout out. Olafur Dari Olufsen plays Mr. Drummond. As soon as he took the Anton Chigurh weapon from the wall, I knew where it was ending up. But I thought that the performance was memorable and menacing, and the physicality of the fighting was well conceived and well shot. And then the visual absurdity of him dying because of the severance procedure because of an involuntary muscle spasm was very funny. Hideous, but good.

[Chris Rye]

The only thing I didn't like about the fight and the thing that I just guess I don't understand is if Lumen is so dangerous and evil and all seeing there's Just so much permissive behavior going. I mean, unless. Unless you subscribe to the idea that the rebellion is somehow part of the experiment.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's a. It is the nature of entertainment for it to be convenient. But the art and the challenge of writing is to obscure the convenience so it doesn't seem easy. And you can lay a map over any of our favorite movies or thrillers, and there's a way to diagram them that seems incredibly lucky or a lot.

[Chris Rye]

Of things go right for John McClane in the Nakatomi Plaza building.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's very well said, but the spirit with which it is performed and shot and the tone of it like that helps you the challenge. And we don't need to reiterate this because we've said it almost every week of the season. I really do think comes down to that point that I keep banging on about, which is that it is an incredibly difficult lift to. It's a mixed metaphor. But to unpaint yourself out of the corner that the very, very evocative ideas of the first season put them. So the idea that there are these baby people who are. Every single thing they do is monitored and controlled to get to a second season where only one of them has to do any work, only one of them is special, and they pretty much can do and go anywhere they want. And there are only three people watching them, you know, in the moment of great triumph for this company. It's a little tiny town and it's convenient. And it's similarly like Dylan quits. So he gets his Chewbacca moment, which I feel like I want to keep coming back to, since you made that famous on the Big Picture the other day. But he also goes back because he needs to be there to propel the plot forward. Well, to hold a vending machine.

[Chris Rye]

A vending machine against the door.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, for long enough. You then get into the other dissonance, which I think keeps a lot of people well. Definitely keeps me at arm's length, which is. The show does prioritize cleverness and its own sensibility above all else. So I think that's best expressed in, as I said, a bravura sequence of a marching band, which then.

[Chris Rye]

There's a lot of marching band business in the Lumen building.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, that's the thing. But the implication is that every single one of these incredibly virtuoso young horn players is severed. That they were like, I know you were really good at Auburn, but there's not a lot of, like, future for you with the French horn. So you can have A life year gear. And then every so often, you'll come play the horn here, but you won't remember it.

[Chris Rye]

But what do they do the 360 days of the year that they're not doing marching band?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the sort of question that the show doesn't really want us to linger on. Answer.

[Chris Rye]

But the thing that's weird is that it's not just a psych gag. Heli actually addresses them like, you've lost friends, too.

[Andy Greenwald]

They become Dylan's army.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I also think the most severance thing about that sequence that might be a nice segue into our frustrations is that it culminates in the sort of card stuff that they do at college football games, where the celebratory cards for Mark are pointed upwards at a drop ceiling that no one can see. The reason I feel frustrated by Severance and fundamentally unmoved by it is that severance as a show exists only to perpetuate severance. It's a closed loop. I think that people. We have gotten into calling it this, and a lot of people call it this to get people excited, like, oh, it's a puzzle box. Everybody loves puzzles. It's a puzzle coffin. Because all of the solving only leads to more of itself. It's like, I watch it and it just feels like nothing. I feel like nothing goes in and nothing comes out. It's a show about. I've said this before about the act of being on the show. I struggle to see anything recognizable or relevant, like our world, our emotions, our humanity, our experience. Every plot beat is a problem with a narrow solution, like Dylan being there that allows it to continue. I find that kind of oppressive.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. I think that you really scrap. You. You identified something when you were like. Say that again about, like, it's art's job to basically distract you from the seams of its own storytelling. Like. Like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I think you said it better than I did.

[Chris Rye]

I think that when. I always get very suspicious when this happens on movies or TV shows. But it's pretty. It's pretty common and especially contemporary stuff. When Cabela's setting up, like, the mechanics of what Mark has to do.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, it's a heist film.

[Chris Rye]

But at the end, I realized, obviously, it's all made up anyway. But the specific mechanics of what he does is really just there to set up the choice that he has to make.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Rye]

You know, it's like, once you finish Cold harbor, there's then, like, a clock on it before she is going to be evaporated or Whatever.

[Andy Greenwald]

You will too. Maybe.

[Chris Rye]

And I guess possibly you will too. But there are heretofore unknown secret passageways that you can run down. You follow the Irving's directions, and Cobell.

[Andy Greenwald]

Goes, what the thought that Irving might know about it.

[Chris Rye]

Irving's directions to the testing floor. And then you guys have just a little bit of time to get to a secret door where you won't. Or will I. They get severed when they go into an elevator and then when they get to the secret door.

[Andy Greenwald]

So that both versions. It's going to be a handoff between them. Yeah, that's. That's a great. It's cool.

[Chris Rye]

But if you. I. I think it's okay. And it's not mean to the show to just be like, why? Why? Like, why is that the plan? Why? What's to say that Gemma is not automatically destroyed when Cold harbor is completed? Like, why. Why is there all this? Why is there only one security guard in the entire building? If this is the single most important day in the history of the corporation.

[Andy Greenwald]

If all of the refiners have been working on projects, who are the people who were taken from them? Who's who for whom?

[Chris Rye]

They are they all working on Gemma?

[Andy Greenwald]

Multiple different realities and to what end? And again, I feel like it really summed up with. I find it really. It's indicative that when Cobell does say the numbers are the emotions, woe and frolic. Of the 25 identities you've severed versions of her that you've created. I'm like, whoa. Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

What?

[Andy Greenwald]

Huh? So.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. I mean, that again, that allowed you to create that. That kaleidoscope of horror that was episode seven, I think. Or eight, where we see her spend a day at the dentist. Spend a day writing thank you cards. I mean, these are nightmares. Right? And that it was evocatively constructed and.

[Chris Rye]

Shot with dental hygiene and being a thoughtful friend.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow. I think you should cape for Lumen and be like, actually, this all seems pretty reasonable. The show is masterful at making elegant solutions to problems that it creates. An example that I also wanted to praise is having the two marks talk to each other through the medium of a Handycam. That whole sequence was shot and edited brilliantly. So it felt like they were having a conversation, but with just the right amount of, like, the. Like the. Like even the Foley operators. Like the sound the camera made when they slammed it shut in frustration.

[Chris Rye]

And as they get. As the experience changes for both characters. Yeah. The handling of the camera became more aggressive. That's a really good observation.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Adam Scott's performance is remarkable. I don't know necessarily how to describe the differences between the two marks as a viewer of the show, but Adam knows it in his bones and can switch like he's stepping in and out of a building to be both of them. That's incredibly precise acting and that's, that's awesome. But I just think that what's missing for me is that actual emotion is severed from the show in pursuit of its own mystery and in pursuit of further adventures up its own ass. To be honest, I don't find the emotional storyline of Mark and Gemma to be that gripping. What if that's the point?

[Chris Rye]

Okay, what if that's why.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's why people keep watching? Because I think there is an investment calculator here where people are like, I have invested in a show that I feel is smart and will reward me. It's kind of like, it's like, it's like being at the table too long in Las Vegas. Something I only know about from listening to the Bill Simmons talk.

[Chris Rye]

I was making a different point, which is that for whatever reason, let's just. I'll use I terms. But watching this season, despite how excellently put together the seventh episode was, where it's the flashback of, of, of Gemma and Mark's life together, the relationship between Mark and Heli has a certain urgency now. They've really leaned more innie and inside Lumen this season than the first season was a little bit more bifurcated.

[Andy Greenwald]

And certainly our empathies are meant to be with the struggle of the Innies more this season.

[Chris Rye]

Yes. Yeah. Although now you'll start season three and you, you would be well within your rights to say, well, like this. This version of Mark betrayed not only his outside version, but the woman who had sort of been condemned into this life. Now we actually don't. I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, to be fair, we'll all be dead of measles by 2028. So it's fine. Let's just, let's let them have their graduate, like, ending.

[Chris Rye]

I, I was, I. This is all a way to get to the where I wanted to, which is to ask you that choice, to make it like this hero of the show actually does something that's 50% anti heroic and 50% heroic or romantic. What did you think of the place that they ended it? Because I admired it. Because I like watching writers write themselves into corners.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, I just think so. If you can look at it that way, then it is a bold way to leave people hanging. How are they going to get out of this one for me, I'm frustrated slightly because I think that it is of a piece with all the smaller examples of that that I've been talking about today, which is it got you an incredibly dramatic moment and a cool image. It was shot really, really well and it is that kind of that graduate feel. And there's the Mel Torme song. And they're running and they're running. But these are not full people. These are the baby people that we're supposedly rooting for. And can't they just be shut off by Milchick flipping a switch?

[Chris Rye]

I know.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that's. And that's it. Like, isn't it still Mark at the end of the day?

[Chris Rye]

That's why I think there's something about the. What these innies need to do that they are on some kind of secret track. Obviously Jaime being like fuck would suggest that it did not go his way. Drummond's dead. Milchik's not happy with his. What?

[Andy Greenwald]

Your imitation of James reminded me a little bit of Saxon when he was getting an hj. Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

When he was all coming back to him.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Rye]

Come on, man. What's the big deal, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Just. Just brothers or just friends you haven't met yet? What's your version?

[Chris Rye]

That's my vibe. But like, what the hell, man? Who am I to say?

[Andy Greenwald]

I've never been on a boat like that.

[Chris Rye]

Exactly.

[Andy Greenwald]

Things are different. Maybe you get severed when you step onto the yacht. The Lotus comparisons are important though. I think today.

[Chris Rye]

Do you think Cameron and Mace are going to be talking about that episode of White Lotus?

[Andy Greenwald]

Just pause the tv. Their TV recap show. Yeah. I think they're going to talk about it maybe less delicately than we have and we have not been very delicate. I found the comparison, or at least the contrast between Severance and Lotus, which I watched them both. I ended up watching them both yesterday. I found it pretty stark because I think that there's on some level they are both attempting to ask questions about the nature of self. And I think that White Lotus is earnest and self aware and self aware in its flaws. Style of questioning, like, what do I want? What's it gonna mean? I find that just more compelling than Severances, which again, if you're go on Reddit, talk to your friends, write a theory, read some theories. There's a richness there that springs from this and that's not nothing.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But the richness of one guy being split between the women he loves and who does he love and why. That's Powerful.

[Chris Rye]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the source of a lot of great drama throughout history. That's literally all the novels we like.

[Chris Rye]

Philip Roth still eating lunch off that one.

[Andy Greenwald]

Fell in love with someone at work. Sorry, honey.

[Chris Rye]

Keep.

[Andy Greenwald]

Keep dissembling that crib. But severance, again and again now through two seasons, I think is. I keep using this word. I don't think it's really that interested in the emotional stakes of it. I think it's interested in the poses and framing.

[Chris Rye]

That's the poster.

[Andy Greenwald]

And so it's about the innie revolution of an evil company where people talk like dipshits hiding underground, clear. Shh. Quiet for a second. You know what I mean? Like, shh. Let these people have emotion and let them want something or think something and chill out. Just stop. Stop.

[Chris Rye]

Or we have three years to chill out.

[Andy Greenwald]

We certainly do. I think the. The worst case version. Read on this. And this is the Bugs Bunny kissing his revolver. If I was still writing columns for Grantland, like, I think, you know, people will and probably already have since the finale aired, written pieces about, like, what severance has to say about our unhealthy work life balance. And I'm like, fuck that.

[Chris Rye]

That was the first season.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's not saying any of that, you know, or about our obligation to ourselves and each other. It's not saying that. I think that for me, the only, like, relevant portent to use the real Seth Milchick kind of word on display is kind of a sad future. Or maybe it's just our dystopian present where only the richest and the most siloed and the most indulgent have access to the machinery to make art at this level. Like, it is just. It is two brothers on a boat, J and O, you know, because it's incredible and it's awesome and it's beautiful, and they can spend untold millions being like, now we want to go to Newfoundland for this, you know, and it's. And it's to make a show about people with little chips in their head running around and goats. God bless.

[Chris Rye]

But when Tim Cook dropped masters of the air, you were like, hard pass. When he made a show about the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Heroes, I think that it's that thing that sticks in my craw a little bit. And similarly, to have Heli suddenly start using the language of revolution, you know, of, like, workers revolution, only, you know, she's not AOC and Bernie out in Denver. She's, like, trying to cheer on trombone players so that she can go to the equator. Do you know what I mean? That's wild. It's wild to me. It's just, it's just that there's something, Look, I'm not, I'm out the game.

[Chris Rye]

You seem very in the game.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm out, I'm out the game stuff. This is the specially I and I. Let me like if you get the chance to make anything in this, in.

[Chris Rye]

This, it's crazy little world of ours.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is this cursed world. Make it and chase your dreams and everything.

[Chris Rye]

Just jerk your brother off.

[Andy Greenwald]

Whatever it takes, whatever it takes to get there. But I do find that as a viewer, as a person with creative interests and a creative career, I genuinely do celebrate this show. I think it's awesome that they are able to do this. And we are seeing what happens when talented people get to turn everything on their board up to 11. Right? Like just go for it. But as a viewer, I find it a frustrating and frustratingly expensive cul de sac.

[Chris Rye]

I can't top that. Let's wrap it up there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you like it? Did you like the season?

[Chris Rye]

I thought it was an interesting experience talking about it every week. You know, typically when we don't love something, we'll let it go. But I think we, obviously there was enough there to engage us even if it was engaging in the negative space. I, I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

I, I, I find I, I, I.

[Chris Rye]

I remain sort of like disappointed in the project, but curious about the response to the project.

[Andy Greenwald]

I guess the response too. Maybe we'll take a few weeks and then think about it a little bit. But I, it, it is very meta and I think that talking about the, talking about it has become part of the show, of course. And I find the desire, I did.

[Chris Rye]

That with True Detective, though I can't, you know, I let ye without sin.

[Andy Greenwald]

But also let me say one other thing. And no one who feels this way is still listening to us unless it's pure hate. Listen. But like, if you love this show, that is fucking great. That's awesome. Like that is what the television or the laptop or whatever you're watching on, that's what it's for. And I think that's great. I also am really, I find it really compelling and hopefully that even that people want to love something this much and want to lose themselves in something. And I don't find it worthy of that adoration or like a misshapen vessel to pour all that into. But the desire to be engaged with something like that is a good sign that it is not all meant to be, you know, just ephemeral. Second screen. Just water off a duck's back or a goat's back in this case. You know, I think that's a really, really good thing. The other thing that we won't talk about now, but then, like the response to people questioning it or disliking it or what we used to call criticism has been that's your personal hell.

[Chris Rye]

I know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Curious.

[Chris Rye]

But we'll wrap it up there. I think we have this coming week. We were going to do Dope Thief, the Pit, maybe some Deli Boys.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, we didn't talk Daredevil.

[Chris Rye]

I will just say I loved Bernthal's energy on that episode. You.

[Andy Greenwald]

I like the show and I like two energies. I like Bernthal and I like the young Gandolfini.

[Chris Rye]

I love young Gandolfin.

[Andy Greenwald]

We'll talk about it. We don't need to short shrift it. But I agree. I think all of us need to walk into a warehouse in New York at least once and have a bearded Jon Bernathal there to slap us around.

[Chris Rye]

Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to everybody for making the show today. We'll be back with you on Thursday.