‘Stranger Things’ Season 5 Is Finally Here. Was It Worth the Wait? Plus, ‘Landman’ S2E3.

Summary

The Watch (The Ringer)

Episode: ‘Stranger Things’ Season 5 Is Finally Here. Was It Worth the Wait? Plus, ‘Landman’ S2E3
Date: December 1, 2025
Hosts: Chris Ryan & Mallory Rubin
(Guest host Mallory Rubin stands in for Andy Greenwald)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the first four episodes of Stranger Things Season 5, reflecting on the long wait, its impact as a piece of “monoculture,” and how the storytelling and character development have evolved as the beloved Netflix series nears its end. The second half explores the third episode of Landman Season 2, with equal parts amusement and disbelief about the show’s escalating absurdities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Stranger Things Season 5 – The Return of a Monocultural Event

The Zeitgeist Factor

• Shared Experience: Despite fragmented streaming culture, Stranger Things retains the rare ability to bring people together for a collective viewing event, especially with its holiday-season drop (06:00).
• Mallory Rubin: "It didn't occur to me that I was talking about Stranger Things. Even though obviously that's like a zeitge animating rare bit of monoculture." (03:47)
• Chris Ryan: Reflects on the joys of watching with others, especially kids, who bring energy and emotional immediacy to the viewing (07:03).

Binge-ability and Release Structure

• Discussion of Netflix’s Three-Volume Drop: The release, spread over the holidays, creates both opportunities for group binging but may dampen the old-fashioned “everyone watches at once” moment (06:02).

Plot and Episode Breakdown

• Season 5 Context: The new season picks up a year and a half after Season 4, following Hawkins’ apocalyptic rupture and with the return of Vecna/One/Henry.
• Episode Titles in Volume 1:
  • The Crawl
  • The Vanishing of Holly Wheeler
  • The Turnbo Trap (directed by Frank Darabont)
  • Sorcerer (the “big one”)
• Direction: Mostly by the Duffer brothers, one by Frank Darabont (08:00).

Evolving Tone and Structure

• Shift Towards Action and Task-Oriented Storytelling:

  • Chris observes a move away from the coming-of-age warmth and 80s hangout charm toward plot-driven, action-heavy sequences (14:10).
  • Mallory notes the “on the clock” nature might come at the expense of quieter moments but is logical for the final season (16:31).

• Monoculture Nostalgia & The Ringer’s Shared History:

  • Mallory reminisces about the early Ringer days (Barb debate, first blog, mall talk, pool scenes); the pop culture touchstones the show both references and creates (10:14, 11:15).

Thematic/Pop Cultural Callbacks

• Overt References:
  • A Wrinkle in Time (“Camazotz” and Mrs. Whatsit), placed front and center (09:40).
  • Harry Potter (Will and Vecna echoes of Harry-Voldemort) (09:40, 42:48).
  • Ongoing 80s nostalgia—music, bikes, latchkey kids, “Goonies,” etc.

2. Character Arcs and Relationship Dynamics

Task vs. Heart

• Characters now engage more in "describing an obstacle, scheming a way to get around it" than in hangout scenes or organic character beats (14:39).
• The party is mostly trapped together in Hawkins, reducing the cross-country group splits that both helped and hurt previous seasons (17:23).
• There is still chemistry and opportunity for growth—Mallory wants more heartfelt Steve & Dustin moments (26:08).

Specific Character Notes

• Will Byers:

  • Season 5 finally re-centers Will as a major player, culminating in his new powers in episode four (“Sorcerer”) (41:07).
  • The show doubles down on his psychic connection to Vecna/the hive mind, likened to Harry Potter’s link to Voldemort (43:40).
  • Will’s sexuality and coming-of-age storyline intertwines thematically with his supernatural arc (44:31).
  • Quote (Mallory, 41:07): "I think something that Joe and I talked about a lot in the run up to season four was a real desire to see Will more centered in the story again…"

• Max Mayfield:

  • Her mind-trapped state inside Vecna’s “mind palace” draws on fairytale motifs, anxieties about agency, and echoes season four’s “power of music” solution (46:13).
  • “It was cool… I don't know if I get it, you know, And I'm curious to know what it is about the caves that Vecna can't go into and get scared off by.” (Chris, 46:13)

• Steve, Jonathan, Nancy dynamics:

  • Love triangle persists but is less important than the characters’ relationships to themselves, their friends, and their futures (23:22, 25:27).
  • The authenticity of friendship pairings (Steve/Dustin especially) remains a highlight.

• Dustin Henderson:

  • Carries the torch for the “party stays together” ethos, grieving for Eddie and Hellfire Club, pushing for loyalty (24:39, 25:03).

• Vecna/Henry:

  • Bulkier this season; the creative team aims for a "Vader in Rogue One" kind of threat (34:05).
  • His entrance riffs on Game of Thrones (Hardhome/Army raising), with the Upside Down taking on “wall” iconography (34:23).

• Eight/Kali’s Return:

  • The return of the controversial “Lost Sister” is both “chutzpah” and potentially a redeemer for a previously failed plotline (31:13, 56:38).
  • Eight’s unique powers and uncertain role in the series resolution are openly debated.

• Secondary Characters:

  • The Wheelers (Holly, Karen, Ted) are unexpectedly central as Holly becomes a key player within Max's mental storyline—a twist lauded for using existing "background" faces rather than introducing new ones (48:33).
  • Dipshit Derek is a divisive addition—some find him unnecessary, others enjoy his levity (48:32).

3. Critique: Stakes & Death Fakeouts

• The show repeatedly employs fake-out deaths (particularly Hopper and Karen Wheeler).
• This “Wrath of Khan” routine frustrates Chris, who suggests it undercuts stakes and emotional truth (50:27).
• Mallory prefers emotional stakes through parting, transformation, or growth rather than just character deaths (52:13).

4. Mythology, The Government, and Big Ideas

• Chris is drawn less to the magic/mind palace than to the show's depiction of government overreach and cover-ups in Hawkins—a thread he wishes the show would pull on more (33:05).
• There’s skepticism about the military subplot, though Mallory thinks the “government as an antagonist” is conceptually interesting (35:19).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "I've never seen someone more excited to talk about Ali Larder giving roadhead than you."
  — Chris Ryan, teasing Mallory’s Landman enthusiasm (03:05)

• "I have recently been thinking about… how much time is left to, like, read books and watch new shows versus rereading books I love and rewatching…"
  — Mallory Rubin, musing on time, rewatching, and anticipation (02:41)

• "But you know, I was watching this Stranger Things this weekend... I got the experience of watching it with a 10 year old... and a 15 year old..."
  — Chris Ryan, on the joys of communal, intergenerational viewing (07:03)

• "One thing Stranger Things has always done really well is balance those elements..."
  — Mallory Rubin, on the show’s blend of coming-of-age, nostalgia, and horror (21:44)

• "When you have task after task after task, you can kind of lose the warmth."
  — Chris Ryan (14:39, paraphrased sentiment)

• "Will becoming Jon Snow, Luke Skywalker, and Harry Potter at the end of episode four..."
  — Chris Ryan, on Will’s arc in Episode 4 “Sorcerer” (40:38)

• "I think the overt 'The Shire can be saved, but not for me' conversation that Mike and Elle had… is definitely setting up the Frodo outcome."
  — Mallory Rubin, discussing how emotional endings don’t have to be mortal (52:13)

• "Dipshit Derek is in season five… not a fan."
  — Chris Ryan, on new character fatigue (48:32)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Stranger Things monoculture & family viewing anecdotes: 04:10–07:32
• Season 5 release/debate on binging vs. group drops: 06:02–07:50
• Season 5 timeline recap, episode directors, plot set-up: 07:50–10:03
• Ringer history, Barb, nostalgia, coming-of-age: 10:14–12:28
• Task-oriented shift in show structure: 14:10–15:26
• Discussion of the “mind palace,” themes, and 80s references: 29:03–31:13
• Eight/Kali's return, mythology expansions: 56:38–61:56
• Fake-out deaths, Hopper, stakes discussion: 50:26–55:09
• Will’s powers, Sorcerer episode breakdown: 40:38–45:43
• Max, Holly, fairy tale mind-trap, and Wheeler family focus: 46:13–49:07

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Landman S2E3 – Batshit Energy in the Oilfields

Tonal Chaos and Absurdity

• Chris and Mallory revel in the show’s willingness to bounce between massive chemical spills and raunchy sexual humor (62:38–65:00).
• Ali Larder’s Angela: The sexual bravado is both hilarious and bewildering. “Angela didn’t get where she is by not knowing how to give a blowjob. I don’t buy that at all.” — Mallory Rubin (64:42).
• The “your job is to achieve the impossible, mine is to motivate—that’s why God created tits” quote (65:00) stuns both hosts.

Taylor Sheridan’s Approach

• Andy Garcia’s cartel-backer character brings unpredictable energy; his scenes with Tommy are highlights (65:49).
• Landman is dubbed “not the best show on TV, but possibly the most entertaining for its runtime” (65:20).
• Discussion of Sam Elliott, oil plots, and the show’s willingness to introduce countless threads and sidebars.

Minor Characters and Subplots

• Mallory doesn’t care about bartender Ariana.
• Chris finds the Yellowstone-ification and endless father-son drama both familiar and amusing.

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Final Thoughts

• Both hosts praise Stranger Things Season 5’s ambition and entertainment value, while wishing for a little more breathing room and focus on emotional closure.
• They remain invested in the relationships (Will-Mike, Steve-Dustin, Max-Lucas) as much as the larger plot twists.
• Both take glee in the wild genre-mashing of Landman, even as it makes almost no logical sense.

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Summary Table of Key Quotes

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | | ----------| --------- | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | 03:47 | Mallory | "Even though obviously that's like a zeitge animating rare bit of monoculture." | | 07:03 | Chris | "I got the experience of watching it with a 10 year old... and a 15 year old..." | | 14:39 | Chris | "Characters spend 90% of their time describing an obstacle..." | | 21:44 | Mallory | "Stranger Things has always done really well is, like, balance those elements." | | 41:07 | Mallory | "A real desire to see Will more centered in the story again..." | | 65:00 | Angela | "That's why God created tits." (quoted by Mallory from Landman) | | 65:20 | Mallory | “Landman...not the best show on tv. Of course not. But is it the most entertaining?” |

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

If you love TV that sits at the intersection of nostalgia, emotional resonance, and mind-bending genre storytelling, this Watch episode is essential listening. It delivers high-intrigue discussion, passionate debate, memorable one-liners, and that singular Chris-and-guest camaraderie—while also serving up a heavy dash of Taylor Sheridan mockery/lovefest to cap it all off.

Skip the promos—dive straight into the fast, funny, and warm deep-dive that celebrates what remains special (and occasionally absurd) in modern pop culture “event” TV.

Transcript

[Chris Ryan]

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[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Chris Ryan]

Paid support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, my sorcerer, it's Mallory Rubin.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought for sure you'd open with a Landman reference.

[Chris Ryan]

I really don't think that would be appropriate. Mal, thank you so much for joining me in the studio today. No Andy today, but we are going to be talking stranger things. We are going to be talking our beloved Landman. It's so great to see you. I know that you guys always are really good about housekeeping on House of Ari where we can find you. I will just say that you can email the [e-mail] and you can watch us on the Ringer TV YouTube channel or on Spotify where I hope you're listening to us. And please Follow us and DM us at thewatchpod_ Instagram.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm an admirer of the Instagram.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks.

[Mallory Rubin]

As you know, I'm a longtime fan and admirer of the pod.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I think Andy's really working the refs on the Instagram stuff. We don't have to get into it. Interesting. Yeah, just I think he's just setting himself up for a lot of success.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. Do you think he understands the algorithm better than you do?

[Chris Ryan]

He might. I think he has a much more a sublime experience on Instagram. I think he doesn't get tempted by Ponzi schemes, unlike you. Yeah. Life extension techniques.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Dead weight.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you Want to live forever?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. You've never struck me as somebody who would be, like, honestly, I mean, tempted by immortality.

[Chris Ryan]

Things are going. Do you.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, not particularly. I have recently been thinking about, like, how much longer do I have, though? I'm thinking a lot about how much time is left to, like, read books and watch new shows versus rereading books I love and rewatching shows I love, et cetera. I think to myself, how many more times do I have to text my good friend Chris Ryan on Saturday afternoon and say X number of hours and X number of minutes left until Landman?

[Chris Ryan]

It's funny that this is. I brought you on specifically because I wanted to talk about Stranger Things with somebody, but I can tell I've never seen someone more excited to talk about Ali Larder giving roadhead than you.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's why I'm here. It's why I'm here. Even though Joanna and I over on House of R have spent months revisiting Stranger Things, we have done a deep dive into the first two episodes of season five. They're available for you to listen to now.

[Chris Ryan]

Watch.

[Mallory Rubin]

We'll be deep diving into episodes three and four tomorrow.

[Chris Ryan]

And I apologize to Joe if I'm about to get dibs on any of your early takes here.

[Mallory Rubin]

The reason I mention that is in addition to, you know, I hope everyone checks out those episodes is because I have to be honest, when you texted me yesterday and said, would you join me for the watch, you thought it.

[Chris Ryan]

Was gonna be lame.

[Mallory Rubin]

It didn't occur to me that I was talking about Stranger Things. Even though obviously that's like a zeitge animating rare bit of monoculture. And of course that's what you wanted to talk about. I just assumed it was extremely the.

[Chris Ryan]

Catch up on Andy three times. And he just is like, very good about being like, I'm just not. I'm not current with that show. And I kept being like, maybe your daughters would like to watch it. And he's like, maybe they won't.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, okay. Well, everyone's missing out.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, everyone's missing out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not us, though.

[Chris Ryan]

Not a lot of people missed out because it was a huge thing I think went on to start here, which was that, you know, you made the joke kind of about it being a monoculture experience. It's something that we eulogize a lot on this show. I know that you guys talk about it a lot on your shows. The idea that basically, like, everybody will participate in the same thing in the same weekend and that then there would be like, A kind of shared conversation. A lot of that stuff happens online. It happens in a very jagged kind of pockets of fandom, pockets of anti fandom way. So it's kind of hard to ever feel like you're back in the glory days of being like, what about this Jon Snow kid? I think he's got something to him, you know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Kind of the Max Bosmer of. Of Westeros.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is that so?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tough.

[Chris Ryan]

But you know, I was watching this Stranger Things this weekend. So here's what happened. I went up to Portland for Thanksgiving.

[Mallory Rubin]

How's the foliage?

[Chris Ryan]

Gorgeous up there. And I was staying with my. My wife and I stayed with her best friend and her family. She has three daughters. And we walked in and I mentioned that I think it was on Wednesday. I was like, oh, and you know, you know what happens tonight?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Volume one, Stranger Things comes out at like five. And they were like, they were so laser focused as soon as I said that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That they were just like, what time can we start Stranger Things? What time can we start Stranger Things?

[Mallory Rubin]

But does this imply that you broke the news?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's like indicated. It's indicative of the, like, the both the passion with which, like, they think about the show, but also like most people in the world are not looking at a countdown clock for when it goes up, I think.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. And this is one of the things, of course, about like airing your show in a non weekly capacity. You don't have that. We're looking at Thursday at 8 or something at this.

[Chris Ryan]

But even with this, eight episodes with.

[Mallory Rubin]

A three volume drop is as close to weekly as we're gonna get though all three of these drops are of course over the holidays, which I wanted to ask you if you thought that dampened the sense actually of a shared conversation simply because on the one hand it's like more opportunity to immediately binge four and a half hours Stranger Things for volume one because you don't have to go to work the next day. Amazing. Is everybody doing that on day one when they have a pie to eat and some football to watch and a weird uncle to engage at the table? I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

Weird uncle was the lost sixth episode of this drop. Lost sister, Weird uncle.

[Mallory Rubin]

Spoilers today, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Uh, yeah. Spoilers for these first four episodes of season five. Um, I will say that, like it felt. It felt fun. And I think actually the, the kind of almost the, the like it being a Stranger Things vacation, which is kind of now how I look at it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Really dulled whatever critiques I had of the show. Do you know what I mean?

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, it's just so fun.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. But like, I got the experience of watching it with a 10 year old who's like stopping every five minutes to be like, is Steve gonna be okay? And then a 15 year old who's like, so they in the upside down now?

[Mallory Rubin]

The whole base?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dr. Kid got that base up in a hurry and.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So it was fun to like engage with their brains about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

And it was fun. Like every time we would stop, like, the younger one would be like, Chris.

[Mallory Rubin]

So did you end up binging them all in a row?

[Chris Ryan]

No, we watched them over two days.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. One Wednesday night and then the other three on Thursday, I think, or something like that. And we finished it Thanksgiving night. And I had a lot of fun. It's. Look, I like, we can. We can get into it.

[Mallory Rubin]

The.

[Chris Ryan]

The four. The four episodes that dropped over Thanksgiving weekend were the Crawl, the Vanishing of Holly Wheeler, the Turnbo Trap, and Sorcerer. Sorcerer will be the big one everybody's talking about, I think. And these episodes were largely directed by the Duffer brothers, except for one. The Turbo Trap was directed by Frank Darabont, which is pretty crazy. The show, Retirement, the Mist, Walking Dead, Frank Darabont. It picks up a year and a half. That's right after season four, which involved Russia, Kate Bush, and a demon named Vecna. And, well, he has many names.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are you gonna go with Vecna? You gonna go with one? You're gonna go with Henry? Of course. This has become a running joke on the show. Too many names.

[Chris Ryan]

I think we could add more, you know.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do you want to throw out there?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, Mr. Whatsit is now another one that he's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are you a big Wrinkle in Time head?

[Chris Ryan]

No. Is that. Is that Mr. What's it guy?

[Mallory Rubin]

Mrs. Whatsit is a Wrinkle in Time character. And Holly Wheeler has been holding a copy of A Wrinkle in Time throughout these episodes. She talks about Camazotz with Max. Again, full spoilers. Max is here in the mind Palace. So they're. Camazotz is a realm from a Wrinkle in Time. So they're doing a. There are a lot. I mean, Stranger Things is always not just engaged with, but actively courted, owned, worn on its sleeves. It's pop culture references and influences. I think there are even by the standards of Stranger Things, a number of, like, really overt ones in these four episodes of season five. I think that the Harry Potter comps are inescapable to me. They have been since season two, but they're just so present here with Will and Vecna in a way that I don't know if you have any interest in discussing with me, but I will be getting into that on House of R. But Wrinkle in Time is one that they are really putting out there and inviting us to think about. One of the subsequent episodes not in this drop is named after a Wrinkle in Time reference.

[Chris Ryan]

So the Camzotz. Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

So that's. That's on. On my mind. I've been revisiting the text, which I had completely, basically forgotten every detail about.

[Chris Ryan]

Just thinking about the words you just said.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me. Yeah, which. Which of the words?

[Chris Ryan]

If I took you. If I showed you a video of this podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

To you and me in 2016 when this show came out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Would you be like, what the fuck are they talking about? Like that. That's not what this show is about.

[Mallory Rubin]

No. I would have thought, okay, on the one hand, in terms of the substance of the conversation, I would've said, this feels exactly right. I think the only surprise is these.

[Chris Ryan]

Guys look even better.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's.

[Chris Ryan]

They've gotten even sharper.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's what I would have said. The kids are all four feet taller, and then we have a lot more, like, gray hair in one of our cases and just less hair in the other case because a decade has passed. This is actually, like, I had a lot of fun with the first volume of season five. I've really been anticipating. I love the show. I kind of can't believe how much time has passed. And so one of the things that's been enjoyable for me about just Stranger Things returning in general and spending a lot of time revisiting the show, but also thinking about the conclusion of this great shared experience is actually kind of plotting it against the lifespan of the ringer. So one of the things you're saying, like, back in 2016, the season one Barb blog that you wrote on the ringer.com, which people can Google and find right now, is one of my favorite weird bits of, like, ringer lore and a moment in ringer history where everybody in the newsroom was talking about Barb. Everybody in Slack was talking about Barb, and you were like, I've got a blog. And just basically, like, wrote a reported story from the newsroom about the Barb debate. And then I was thinking about season three, which we actually covered together. We potted about season three, just like seeing Infinity War.

[Chris Ryan]

I Remember it like it was yesterday.

[Mallory Rubin]

You don't remember this at all to me.

[Chris Ryan]

Do we do it on a separate feedback or were you doing the watch?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I think we did it on the watch and we did it at the chapel at the old Sunset Gower offices, in person. And the thing that I. I have, like a great affection and fondness for season three. You don't remember this at all?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, like, I love the Starcourt stuff.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

The mall. Yeah. And so, like, talking with you not only about a new season of Stranger Things, but about, like, being a young person at the mall and what that.

[Chris Ryan]

Did for your first taste of independence.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, there's been something like that in every season. You know, going to the pool or. What's your equivalent of playing D and D in the basement with your friends? Ye. And I just like. I've always liked and been intrigued by the mythology and the lore of Stranger Things, but to me, it has always been just a great, great, great coming of age story and story about a bunch of nerds who felt like outsiders finding their confidence through their friendship with each other.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it's like a beautiful. A beautiful show in that respect.

[Chris Ryan]

It's basically. It's gone from, I think when I was initially sort of enamored with it in that first two seasons, it was because it was obviously playing a lot of hits for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Not only in terms of its explicit references, but I thought that they did a really good job of capturing a anonymous Midwestern suburb 80s vibe and the idea of riding bikes freely. The keyhole, the latchkey kids of parents that are distracted or parents that are working too hard.

[Mallory Rubin]

Kids never have any idea where the kids are.

[Chris Ryan]

Never have any idea except for Joyce. And it's the days before, you know, they expand the cast massively and there's all this, like, kind of almost science fiction and fantasy involved pulling the kids into, like these bigger, big, kind of complicated adventures. And so I just really enjoyed it as like a hangout show. I liked the music, I liked the kids. Had a lot of charm. I mean, these things basically live or die based on the casting, you know, and they really did a great job. I mean, regardless of like, Millie, Bobby Brown doesn't really talk that much in the first couple of seasons of the show, but is quite effective. And Wolfhard's obviously got a lot of talent. Like, there's. There's a lot going on with this cast. Yeah, I think that I will. I am obviously seeing it through. And I enjoyed watching season five, but it really struck Me how much the last two seasons in particular, but this one specifically has become task oriented. And it is characters talking about. They spend 90% of their time describing an obstacle, scheming a way to get around it, and then an extensive set piece executing that plan. And you could say that's most storytelling. You know, that could be Ozark as well. Like, I found they were very, very, very kind of almost trapped in what is the next thing that we have to do. You guys have to run over here while we run over there, and then we'll meet in the middle, but of course we're gonna get distracted along the way. That's really, like, what the show is about now. And obviously the duffers have gone all in on the mythology and the logic and the reasoning behind the Upside down and behind, like, Vecna and what the Hawkins lab was really doing. And what, like, is there a black hole in Hawkins or something like that? And I think all that's kind of fun and cool, and especially if you're watching it in this kind of eventized way, you forget about how long it is. You forget about, like, whether the CGI is always perfect or whatever, and whether or not, like, despite all these rules, like a Kate Bush song can break through time and space to bring someone out of it. But I can't help but kind of be charmed by, like, whatever remnants there are of the 80s references and just the. The people generally cast on the show.

[Mallory Rubin]

I really agree. I think that, like, my one note on season five, Volume one, a note.

[Chris Ryan]

In terms of a critique or just.

[Mallory Rubin]

A note, something that I was like, huh? When I watched it for the first time. But I will say on a subsequent watch through the episodes, I felt this way less to your point about how task oriented it is. I think every season, if you actually just broke down the core propulsive engine of each season and, like, what each character is doing and focused on and what the mission is, they're all pretty contained to a certain period of time. There is, like, an objective inside each of them. We are like on a journey, right? These four episodes felt one degree too. Like we're in an action movie and just missing a little bit of the, like, slower, quieter moments that I really cherish inside the Stranger Things stretch. Now that makes sense to me because it is actually genuinely the end game, like it is the final season. We only have eight episodes, albeit far more hours than that left to get to our conclusion. I think there are a couple exacerbating elements. Eight.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought we had like three. Three or four at Christmas.

[Mallory Rubin]

There are eight total in the season. So it's four in this first draft.

[Chris Ryan]

Three at Christmas, one more at nears Eve.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think, like, the fact that we are operating even by the standards of a Stranger Things season on a really tight clock heightens that. So this season, obviously, we're getting some flashbacks, we're moving throughout time, we're moving throughout Vecta's memory palace, et cetera. We start on November 3rd. We're marching clearly toward this anniversary, November 6th, the day that Will was taken in the Upside down in season one. That is the date we learned in season four that the Upside down is frozen in time on that date because Nancy, when they went back to the Wheeler's house in her room, looked at her diary. It's like the Upside down is frozen in time. When Max is taking us and Holly through the memories, through Henry's memories, and we see, like, young Joyce, the kids in high school.

[Chris Ryan]

Hopper's in it too, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, and Hopper we see, and young.

[Chris Ryan]

Joyce is in the stage play. Like, I know that there's some, like, connection there, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oklahoma. And it has the same date, November 6th, this key date that everything is orienting around. Obviously crucial, but more germanely in terms of just like, how did these episodes feel? If the entire season potentially takes place inside of three days, it's gonna just have this really, like, we are definitionally on the clock feeling. And I think the last thing is just like the characters are all. They've all been working as a team throughout the entire series, but they're like, all in the same place now. They're trapped in side Hawkins. They're in this quarantine zone. They can't get out. And so there is just a little bit less of the separate groups in separate places, which, to be clear, I think has not always worked well for the show. When A11 was off on her own in season two, the. The balls of bringing eight back this season is, like, astonishing to me. I kind of can't believe they did it, but I can.

[Chris Ryan]

I respect it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Me too, actually. But, you know, like, the. The California crew in season four, you know, Mike and Jonathan and Will and Argyle being separate, Elle and then going to Nevada, et cetera, like, that hasn't always been to the show's benefit, but I think when everybody is like, is your telemetry tag, like within the right distance? We're that close together. There are fewer moments where it feels like we're pausing. When we do pause, and you have Mike talking to Holly about Holly, the Heroic. Or the conversations between Robin and Will about identity and embracing who you are. Those are just such lovely moments to me. And I'm, like, really excited to see how they find room to incorporate those moments in the final four episodes while we are so on the clock.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, let's say this wasn't the final season.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Or let's say this had been more of a. It might be the final season or after this, like, everything is going to be different. Maybe there's different cast or whatever like that. The most compelling aspect of this season to me is definitely in the first five minutes when Maya Hawk is doing this really delightful DJ exposition dump. And so the setup for the episode the season is essentially that after the events of 4, which I have to admit, I have not rewatched 4. Russia running up the hill. Like, I do remember it. But the actual, like, what happens at the end? Hawkins gets split in half.

[Mallory Rubin]

VNA has opened his four gates. The earthquake, the. The. The veins, like, burst through town. The town explodes.

[Chris Ryan]

As Robin gets into. As in her new job as a dj. She has been an ice cream scooper.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And then family video.

[Chris Ryan]

Family video.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. They worked at Scoops Ahoy in season three. Family video in season four.

[Chris Ryan]

I've met her career trajectory really mirrors mine.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. When will she be working at a comic shop? And when will she become a comic record store?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Expert blogger.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe she could invent the Internet and just.

[Mallory Rubin]

I could see that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I could see that.

[Mallory Rubin]

She would be a great podcaster. Well, no question.

[Chris Ryan]

The early parts of the first episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Are the most interesting thing to me where I love the first episode. First of all, it's a. I don't know if it's. I imagine it's intentional. There is. This show is made over the last couple of years. It went through Covid shutdowns and strikes, so there's been a lot of, like, kind of stops and starts to the actual series itself. But you don't have to be a brain genius to see the correlation between a bunch of people living in quarantine and wondering whether or not they have a lab leak situation on their hands is sort of, like, relevant to our reality. But beyond that, I think it just would have been fascinating to have a bunch of different characters who are, like, maybe having different reactions about being trapped in this same town they've always lived in or being trapped in with each other. What kind of jobs? How does the economy work? Like, how does, like, policing and all this stuff in town work? And instead they've kind of settled on. These are the Ghostbusters, and they're just always on alert to go to war with a demon in a parallel dimension rather than, man, am I ever gonna get out of this town? Or, like, kind of like some of the more universal themes that I think it. The show did much better in the first three, but mostly the first two seasons.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm anticipating that that element returns to the fore in the back half of the season. I see.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know, like, are they ever gonna stop having. Every episode has, like, a massive throwdown, I think.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know. I think one of the things Stranger Things has always done really well is, like, balance those elements, you know? Season three is, I think, in some ways, the least consequential season in terms of advancing the myth. That was like the season of the flayed.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it's one of my favorite seasons, not only because I covered it with you, even though you don't remember. I do remember because of the pooh.

[Chris Ryan]

Young Billy, man.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, young poof Billy. But, like, because of that blend. You know, you have Robin and Steve and Dustin and Erica trapped in an elevator down to a secret base, trying to work their way out. That is very action oriented, plot oriented. But the bonding and the conversations that happen in those sequences is, like, incredible. You build towards something like, after Robin and Steve have been tortured by Russian doctors and scientists that, like, incredible conversation that they have while still high on the floor of the bathroom, sneaking in and out of Back to the Future. I think the show is expert, actually, typically at maintaining that balance. So something like, okay, Nancy and Jonathan in season four.

[Chris Ryan]

Great fall T shirt on Jonathan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Jonathan is crushing it on the not.

[Chris Ryan]

A Steve guy, but generally speaking, team Steve always.

[Mallory Rubin]

Joanna noted in our first house of our deep dive that the Jonathan cardigan this season is really worth, like, toasting and admiring. Nancy and Jonathan in season four were kind of experiencing a little bit of a rupture in their relationship. The idea of where they would go to college, who was gonna end up presenting whom. They had sort of worked themselves into the same point that they initially bonded over out in season one on the shooting range. Like, we don't want to end up like our parents.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

Now they're trapped, like you said, by the necessities and the realities of this quarantine in Hawkins. And so that conversation is on hold to me. It doesn't make sense to end the show, though, without those issues coming back to the fore. I find the, like, dick measuring contest between Steve and Jonathan for Nancy's affections and Robin's reaction to it in particular. Really amusing and very compelling. That's not the same thing as those characters actually confronting the question of, like, does their life make sense to live together?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think the best example of what I would anticipate being a slight shift in energy, pace, and focus in the back half of the season, which, to be clear, no one alive has seen and certainly we have not seen. So I have no idea. Steve and Dustin finding to your point about, should the characters be having a different response to what has been going on? I think they are having that as just a little subtler. So Dustin going into school in his Hellfire T shirt at the beginning of the season because he insists on honoring Eddie and remembering Eddie and, like, what Hellfire meant to him and basically saying to Mike and Will and Lucas, like, will was of course not a part of Hellfire because he was in California. But, like, guys, what the fuck? Like, why aren't you doing this, too? That's the whole thing. The party stays together.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he at least is going through, like, there's a couple of characters who are going through arcs. Like, Dustin is obviously going through something where he's found, like, a couple of people that he, like, has located in the world that he's like, this person got me or I got this person.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, and that. That is, like, I appreciate the fact that a couple of the characters seem to have gone through, like, arcs.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

There are some who are, like. I don't know whether they were gonna just kill Steve in the second season or something. And they were like, first season. Yeah, he's just too.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's the best.

[Chris Ryan]

We gotta keep him around for 10 years. So he's just like, kind of like a mascot now at this point. Like, he is very, like, lovable, but, like, is never really, like, has not changed much over the course of. I know you can say, like, he, you know, doesn't want to be his dad or whatever. Like.

[Mallory Rubin]

But wouldn't you say that his. However, like, consistent. Steve himself is. I think he has experienced positive change as a result of being friends with people that previously, like, the cliques of high school, would not have allowed him to engage with. Right. But I think, like, something like the relationship between Steve and Dustin is my favorite example in the history of the show. And then you add, like, Robin to it, Eric, etc. Of just the show's capacity to surprise us with the alchemy of these pairings and to have the characters really authentically experience that surprise too. So, like, Dustin's in a place of grief and resentment. That makes sense to me. He's not necessarily, like, able to express that.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

That also makes sense to me. Steve and Dustin fighting, but not talking about why they're fighting, I find very sad to watch in a way that feels like, true to life, but not something I want to see for like, eight episodes. So by episode, like six or seven, I need those two to have a real heart to heart about what is going on, which is obvious to us as viewers. But they have not been able to completely unlock with each other. And I just believe that the show will make space for that.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, here's a. I guess this is a good way of putting it. And I'm not gonna get into spoilers for Landman, but when I was watching Landman this weekend, I was like, the reason why Landman always feels so weird to be watching is because so much of the television that I watch is on a runaway train track towards the ending immediately, like, it's just like, watch Beast in Me. And it's. You're like, when is she gonna find out what the truth is? And what is he gonna do if she finds out? You know, like, you know, you just are going on this, like, speeding bullet towards the end. And yeah, you get distracted by side characters or whatever or new twists, but that's, like, kind of where the show is going. Most shows now are programmed to do that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Landman is like, now here's 10 minutes about these guys coughing. You know, it's like, it'll just come up with ran outs. And I was watching it this weekend and I was like, oh, right. Because that's how you make five to seven seasons of a TV show.

[Mallory Rubin]

Lamb man could go on forever.

[Chris Ryan]

Right? Exactly. Like, they have no pretenses. It's half a sitcom, half, like, workplace drama and half an action show. So when you're watching Stranger Things, you can see if they were just like, look, we've got solid gold here. And all we have to do is we can have 45 minutes of something like, that's basically these people having, like a little, like, kind of mini crisis drama or, like, adventure over the course of an episode, but really having a lot of fun. And then as long as something spooky happens at the end, they've changed the dynamic of that. They've made this into much more of an action sci fi show. And all the characters need to be in service of that. And I think, sadly, when you've got people who are as talented as, like, Honestly, Maya Hawk and Sadie Sink are. And I love, like, a bunch of the performers on this, but like, Sadie Sink in this batch of episodes, I would say is largely wasted, where she has to explain to Holly Wheeler and the audience what the fuck is going on. And even in her very nicely rendered explanation, it is still like, we say the words mind palace, like, as if that's a thing, you know, like, mind palaces are what we say to explain when show creators and film directors decide it's just happening in this guy's brain and he can go into like, all these different worlds and all these different rooms. But mind palaces are kind of hard to visualize.

[Mallory Rubin]

Totally. But do you have more specifically in these episodes, but also, I guess generally in a show like Stranger Things, do you have more room for that in your heart? Because that is like, core to the concept, right? Yes. So, like, yeah, you know, Eleven's powers, Vecna's powers, their psychic powers, like when Max.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like the never ending story. It's like these. The person reading their touchdown.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Another touchstone is the. As the ref. As a reference in the. In the. In the universe, of course. And like, you know, obviously something like the Kate Bush running up that hill has become so iconic and inextricable from the show. And like, what was that used for? It was the. On the Pottercom front, like the Patronus to pull Max out of Vecna's mind palace, this other realm that she had infiltrated. And obviously that's very core to the text of season five so far with like, Will and the. The hive mind connection and the demo, the Demogorgon cam and seeing through Vecna's eyes and this idea of, like, have you penetrated deeper than somebody else knew you would or meant you to? And like, I do think it's interesting. I'm so curious to see, like, what they land and how effectively they land, some of the mythology stuff. But for a show that really oriented initially in its early years, around the Upside down and the right side up, you have Hawkins and you have the Upside Down. We have like, you know, the fabled Mr. Clark explanation of the. The flea and the acrobat to help us understand the jump. And like, we have, we're operating ultimately in the endgame here in dimensions outside of that. You know, this, like, memory scape is a different, obviously related, but like a different thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

The visual distinctions of the place that El cast Vecna into in season four in the 79 Maskard, Hawkins Lab flashback, et cetera. Like, we're not ultimately just in this upside down, right side up place, though of course, the finale is called the Right side Up.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I just think that's interesting. Like, the. The return of Eight is also kind of, like, emblematic, I think, in that sense, because that was, I think, unequivocally, and I think it's not a controversial statement to say that's one of the great failures of the show so far to date in season two.

[Chris Ryan]

To do that episode in season two, just.

[Mallory Rubin]

It didn't work like that. I don't think that standalone episode with Elle and eight and just the. At that moment in time, attempt to widen the mythology. But in season four, saying, okay, that didn't land, but that doesn't mean we're not gonna do it. We have something we want to explore here with the other kids now. Henry's one. Who are all these other kids? And I thought that in season four, the stuff at the lab, the flashbacks, like, El having to kind of unearth these repressed memories of what happened at the lab with all these other kids. You have two as a little mini villain, et cetera.

[Chris Ryan]

Can I ask you just a procedural question? There's 11. L was the last one of the kids. Yeah. Of the. Of the kids in the initial lab thing was. It was.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I don't. I mean, I think that what happens at the. In the massacre in 79, was there.

[Chris Ryan]

More than, like, 11 kids there? I'm asking because he's got 12 gates that he's trying. He's got the 12.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's looking for his 12 disciples.

[Chris Ryan]

And I just didn't know if there were 12 or 13 or whatever it is, like, in the initial lab. Like, is he trying to replace, I don't know, the ones that he killed.

[Mallory Rubin]

That we ever have gotten definitive, like, without question. Brenner had created in his program this many kids. I think, like, after what happened with the massacre, it's obviously from what we know and understand, kind of reoriented around 11, specifically as, like, a focus of his training because all those other kids are dead. What are you most interested in at this point? Like, do you care about all of the Vecna and upside down centric mythology? Or are you, like, I'm here for the Super 8 flashbacks to Will and Mike and Joyce and Will and Jonathan and Will and those relationships, or is it a mix?

[Chris Ryan]

I think I'm actually. There's a third thing that I'm interested in, which is the, like, they're sort of in, you know, flirtation with, like, what did the government have to do with this?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And not like. I don't mean that. I don't mean that. Like, I've been listening to too many podcasts. I just think I. I think Linda Hamilton's cool. You know, obviously she's getting used to being in Stranger Things to some extent. But I'm curious about the idea that of, like, what is the. This Hawkins Lab and what is.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, how does the government, like, take over a town? And. And it's not like, on cnn, you know what I mean? Or, like, is there any attention being paid? Is the president involved? I am curious about that stuff, but, yeah, Like, I think my concerns are a little bit more terrestrial.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Okay. I'm.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I'm.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I feel like Vecna's taken a couple Ls over the last couple of seasons, and he seems beatable. You know, on a. On a neutral field, he definitely seems beatable.

[Mallory Rubin]

No question. Did you like that? He, you know, he bulked up. It's bulking season for Vecna. He came out. You know, the duffers have said, yeah, this is like a Vader and Rogue One kind of entrance.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, at the end of the. Yeah, at the end of the.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's got the kind of like, spiky Groot tree shoulder pads.

[Chris Ryan]

There's also very hardhome.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I mean, he literally did the hardhome, like Night King raising his army, no question. And I think a very Thronesian few episodes in general because obviously the wall in the Upside down, though, we learned it as a circle thanks to Dustin's math. Steve was like, we don't need to see your work. I'm like, I would love to understand this better. I was never much of a math kid, honestly. You know, the rock face that Max and Holly are in that Henry is afraid to go into, won't go into, obviously a key moment in his past being alluded to there also just like a wall. Like, neither of these walls are made of ice, but they're very Thrones again. And then you had. Yeah. The overt hearthome reference. So that's very fun. I'm definitely interested in all of it. I think the weird to me, the military stuff and the government involvement. I think when you go back to the Hawkins lab and Brenner Papa and all that, that's super interesting to me.

[Chris Ryan]

But when they've kind of like, just sort of kept it going, even though there's not really a logic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sullivan crew in season four and now the case he's. Sullivan is still in It. He's the lieutenant colonel now. K is. We're like, oh, he has a boss. Right, Right. That's been the least effective aspect of these past two seasons to me. I think conceptually it's really interesting. The idea that, like, it should be this battle of good versus evil and, like, can we preserve our. Not just town, but reality? And instead there are people in the military or government around you who are like, actually, are you the problem? I think conceptually that's really interesting. And the idea that then you have this other human obstacle also very interesting and very like, kind of like last of us to me, that the people end up being, you know, a real consistent threat and foe. I like that idea. I just don't. And I was like, damn. They put up a base in the upside down with a quickness. And they do not seem nearly concerned enough about inhaling these particles.

[Chris Ryan]

There's like a work from anywhere option there. What do you think the deal is?

[Mallory Rubin]

Do they have distributed seating?

[Chris Ryan]

Is there, like a cafeteria? Do you take your meals in the right side up? Like, great question.

[Mallory Rubin]

How does the temperature. You know, we're very. We text pretty often about, like, what's the temperature at the office? Very temperature sensitive, I'd say, given that the wall vine that chokes Hop, you know, we learn from K. Like, and obviously fire has been a big part of controlling and sending pain waves through the hive mind. The heat, the impact of the heat, the impact of the cold, is that bleeding into the rest of the workspace. Like that scientist who Elle and Hop accosted. And then Hop basically propped up as, like a shadow dummy in the closet. And that guy just got annihilated by a spray of bullets. Tough day at work for him.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I was kind of going to ask you, like, there is a degree of like,'80s action mov movie, like, people just getting shredded by M16s in this season that I was like, I wonder if kids are like, so. Because the kids I was with were like, huh? They just killed all those scientists.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's funny, I, Like, I thought that season four in that respect was, like, super violent and that the horror ratcheted up just because we were seeing teenagers. Yeah. Brutally murdered. Like, their bones snapped and their eyes crush and their jaws dislocated and everything else.

[Chris Ryan]

Eddie's girl, Chrissy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that was very tough in season four. In this season, like, Vecna going like finger branch knives through every orifice in someone's face. I'm like, I would have nightmares for a really long time if I were a kid and I saw that. But then I was thinking back and actually this memory was helpfully sparked by seeing when El, you know, she times the first jump perfectly, right? The seven seconds to the thunderclap.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah. Ms. Times the second jump in her Josh Brolin outfit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, Brolin. Yeah, it's a fun mix of the Goonies. Certainly some Rambo and like obviously a.

[Chris Ryan]

Little bit of Red Dawn. Yeah, sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just like, all right, I missed time. I jumped. This guard in the Watchtower knows I'm here. Sorry. Snap in the neck. Really took me back to 11. Brutally murdering a number of assailants and opponents. But like Brenner's crew, who she just like eye bleeds at the end of the season one finale. I'm like, we've been casually killing people in Stranger Things from the jump.

[Chris Ryan]

It's true.

[Mallory Rubin]

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[Chris Ryan]

Let's hit like a couple of the big, big moments. And you don't have to go too deep. Cause I know you're gonna talk about this with Joe. And now, like, seriously, if you've just been enjoying our conversation for some reason, we will be spoiling basically the things that happened in the fourth episode. So Will becoming Jon Snow, Luke Skywalker, and Harry Potter at the end of episode four. When you saw that it was called Sorcerer, did you have a feeling he was the Sorcerer? Oh, do you have a feeling something was coming with Will?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And I think something that Joe and I talked about a lot in the run up to season four was a real desire to see Will more centered in the story. Again, he's so crucial in seasons one and two. And then really, it just kind of lost.

[Chris Ryan]

He's just like, you guys aren't my friends as much as I'd like you to be.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love that scene actually in season three when he says when he and Mike have that fight in the rain. It's like, you thought it would be like this forever and was like, yeah, I did, actually. And I really love that beautiful conversation between Will's reaction to the conversation with Mike in the Surfer. The Surfer Bros. Pizza van in season.

[Chris Ryan]

Four, and then Jonathan's conversation, the California, like, surfer stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Argyle ruled. I still say Argyle ruled. So Will gave us. We got some lovely Will moments. But in terms of, like, how crucial he is to the core mechanics of the story, it just had shifted so far away from him in seasons three and four. And so it felt really important to recalibrate that in season five. I think the trailers made it clear that would be happening. His position even in the poster made it clear that would be happening. So not surprised in that sense. I think that the conversation that Robin had with him about finding, like, realizing and embracing that what you need is already inside of you. And then this is just like, I'm sure you're rolling your eyes. This could not be more my shit. Like, I just like, really loved that. And I think specifically the idea of Will tapping into the hive mind and kind of accessing his powers that way. I will try to keep this part quick for your sake and your audiences. But, like, since season two, on the Potter comp front, everything with Will in season two, with. Remember the idea of, like, this is the spy.

[Chris Ryan]

I think there's quite a few hotter, curious people listening to this.

[Mallory Rubin]

The idea of Will as the spy in season two. Since season two, I've been talking about this. It just was so Harry Voldemort, Horcrux, not even coded. That's just what they were doing. What happened in season two of Stranger Things was the Order of the Phoenix, Department of Mysteries. Like, who's spying on who, really? And what is this connection between. You allow the villain to do everything with Max in the music is so Patronus coded. You don't know what a Patronus is. That's okay. You don't need to. But happy to tell you if you're interested.

[Chris Ryan]

Off mic.

[Mallory Rubin]

So this idea of, like, opening season five, reminding us that Will was first.

[Chris Ryan]

And that he's had, like, very physical, almost medical, procedural connection to Vecna, this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Literal connection to the hive mind, in addition to this deeper, I think, emotional and kind of, like, existential connection to Henry Creel. And, like, why did Henry choose Will? Which I think, I assume we'll be spending a lot more time on in the back half of the season. There's such a. Like, mark him as his equal. Again, like Harry Voldemort. Comp. If you're interested in more of this, we'll be talking about this for a while in House of R tomorrow. And so this idea of, like, actually a power from that connection makes complete sense to me. I am curious to see what the balance is in the back half of the season, then, between El and Will and this fight. But I kind of.

[Chris Ryan]

Because obviously the nosebleed would suggest he has the same powers as El or whatever, but he's kind of like the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Powers through the hive mind, right? Yeah, but, yeah, the wipe of the blood from those. Just a great. I thought a great touch. Really great.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

The fact that, like, El is created in a lab. You know, Mike has this kind of setup speech to Will about, like, but your powers are innate. Like, you're a sorcerer, you're not a wizard. And then Will and Robin has this message to him about what's inside of you. And then, like, the memories of. And obviously this is like. Like, of course, especially in the Robin conversations, like, deeply connected to Will's sexuality and Will discovering who he Is and embracing who he is and, like, figuring out when he is ready to say that to the world. Right. The idea that, like, his friends and family, his mom being in peril is when he taps into and unlocks that power. And that. That is actually really different from Eleven's power source, but still, like, so much of Eleven's powers are connected to, like, parsing her mom's memory of what happened.

[Chris Ryan]

There and getting in a bathtub.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gotta get in that bathtub. You need the sensory deprivation. All the throughline across the seasons of the conversations that Mike and 11 have had. I'm like, am I the hero or the monster? Right. Yeah. Like, all of this feels very connected to me in a way that I think is really satisfying in the final season. So when I saw the word sorcerer, did I know it would be Will? I don't know that I thought about it that actively, but, like, did I think for sure Will would have powers? I don't know. But this feels.

[Chris Ryan]

He wasn't just gonna be like. Like the chump at the back of the line, being like, nobody's paying attention to me anymore.

[Mallory Rubin]

This feels right.

[Chris Ryan]

The revelation that Max is trapped inside of Vecna's mind palace, which is. I. I'm glad that they came up with something, because otherwise, you've just got Sadie Sink in a coma, and it becomes, like, Rocky 2. Basically, like, you're just like, when are we gonna get this really great performer to join the. The crew again? It was cool.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know if I get it, you know, And I'm curious to know what it is about the caves that Vecna can't go into and get scared off by.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I thought her scenes with the performer playing Holly were, you know, sweet and obviously a lot of, like, very fable, oh y. Red Riding Hood kind of stuff going on. And that whole kind of setup of you live in this house and you can have any breakfast and anything you want, but don't go in the woods. And in fact, you are being held up in the upside down with, like, a tube down your throat this whole time.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Very interesting. But obviously, like, this is where I think you build up all these rules and guidelines to a world, and then you're just like, put the power of music, man.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

That's.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what'll save you, you know? And it's like, all right, well, sure.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

You know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's funny because, like, my stranger things theory brain starts to really activate when I see Henry guide Holly to the mailbox. And there's a Tiffany tape. There's a Tiffany tape and a way to play it. And I'm like, but music is a shield against fecna. Interesting. I think there's a lot still to unravel and parse there. I was thrilled to see Max. Max is one of my favorite Stranger Things characters. You could never. There was not a scenario where I would have predicted that the Wheeler family was this central in season five. Obviously, Holly is like maybe the main character of these four episodes so far. And then of course, your beloved Karen Wheeler and my beloved Ted Wheeler.

[Chris Ryan]

Ted absolutely puring irons.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, if you have that kind.

[Chris Ryan]

Of yard and he's playing. This is before, like some of the new golf technology. You know what I mean? Like, he's just absolutely.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you feel really striping it? He was like, I passed the bacon. The bacon gets to him. It's gone. Right. He and Karen are having arguments. He's like, how many wine. How many glasses of wine deep are you? Gotta go relieve the stress out in the yard. Just get a couple strokes in really cr. Coated. But I think it's great. I think it's great that the Wheelers are this central because like every season of Stranger Things, there's some really new central focus. You know, we've got Max in season two, obviously, like Billy as well. Robin comes in in season three. Erica takes on a bigger role.

[Chris Ryan]

Dipshit Derek is in season five.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, we haven't talked about dipshit Derek.

[Chris Ryan]

Not a fan.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love him. You're not a fan?

[Chris Ryan]

No. We did not need another character, but.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is the perfect. Okay, on the one hand, we don't have to get. We didn't need another character. Connects to what I was going to say about the Wheelers, which is like, it's smart to me to use characters who actually have been there the whole time and aren't new characters and say, wait, isn't it actually fucking crazy that in basically half a decade of their family members being directly, centrally embroiled in a battle for the sanctity of our dimension are just kind of a fucking idea?

[Chris Ryan]

They're just like, weird, huh?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And Holly just live, right for a year and a half. Holly in particular, who has witnessed, like the Demogorgon coming through, pressing the wall in the Byers home in season one on through all the other horrors that she has seen. You know, the flayed moving through the. The treetops in season three at the state fair, et cetera. I like bringing them more to the fore. I'm glad there aren't a ton of new characters. But Derek, the Derek thing is really working for me, first of all, because he's just. I think that kid is really funny and we need a little levity. So much of the levity and Stranger Things in the past has come from Steve and Dustin and they're both in a mood. They're in a funk. We need some laughs.

[Chris Ryan]

Definitely. My favorite sequence of the season is the Great Escape stuff is Robin explaining the Great Escape.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very good.

[Chris Ryan]

And Tom, Dick and Harry, the tunnels from Great Escape. And just like those guys doing the whole like, we have to dig a tunnel, get these kids out. This kid's doing guided meditation. That was very amusing. But I just was like, this is. We just like, are we need to be shrinking the roster and focusing on the people who matter rather than like calling up guys from the minors?

[Mallory Rubin]

Fair enough.

[Chris Ryan]

In August here, do you.

[Mallory Rubin]

On the shrinking the roster front, what do you want the death toll to be here? Like, do you think we need to see.

[Chris Ryan]

Let me talk to you about this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me when Hop walked into the vault again and then didn't die again.

[Chris Ryan]

We're doing Wrath of Khan ending 15 times in this show. And I've talked about this a lot on various episodes about various things. This goes back to the first time I was really like able to articulate it to myself. Was the fake out death of Chewbacca in. Was that Force Awakens or Rise of Rise of Skywalker. Rise of Skywalker. And the idea that you're going to take a beloved character, basically go right up until the point of death, show their quote unquote death, have everybody have the emotional reaction. And then it's like, oh my God, he's still alive. You know, for whatever reason. And I actually was just like, why? You know, mostly he was thinking about this in terms of Karen Wheeler. But you're right. Hopper's death procession full Bruce Willis and Armageddon. Seeing his life pass before his eyes. Only for it to be like. Like, hey, I found something else besides behind this door.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Was just like, you guys can't keep doing this. And then if you do kill him, it's. I don't know if they're giving it themselves optionality or like what the deal is with this. But it is a note that I think they play a little too hard. Like Karen Wheeler was dead.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was like a full on episode of the.

[Chris Ryan]

This is a 1980s hospital living under medical quarantine now. Now, sure, they could get some military assistance in their in their trauma surgery.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a really deep neck wound, but she has a Demorian claw to the.

[Chris Ryan]

Thoracic area of her and she's dead.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's. She was the ability to just write. To carry on a complete conversation. On a note.

[Chris Ryan]

Where's Ted? Ted just.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nobody has checked on Ted anyway.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you think of the. Like we're going to keep doing fake. Fake out death.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm a little like I'm experiencing some conflicting conflicted feelings about it because on the one hand I really love these characters and I want them to be okay. I am not in general somebody who relates to the idea of stakes in stories by thinking that can only mean death. I think there are a lot of ways that you can feel the stake and I think the. Joe and I talked about this for a while, but the overt. The Shire can be saved. But not for me. A conversation that Mike and Elle had on the rooftop just feels like it's definitely setting up whether it's for 11 or other characters. The Frodo equivalent of like, I actually can't go home again. And I think there could be a parting of the ways that is not just like literal mortality. That would be very emotionally go back to Chicago.

[Chris Ryan]

Not interested in incredible time in music in Chicago.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I would. A return to like the. The heavy eyeliner and the bitchin would be. Would be good. So. So I don't need people to die, however. And like, we have lost characters. We lost Bob, we lost Eddie, et cetera. More than that. But like we've lost people.

[Chris Ryan]

A lot of scientists.

[Mallory Rubin]

Many scientists. Many scientists and many a lab. The Hopper one got me because, like.

[Chris Ryan]

But that's like the third time it's happened with Hopper.

[Mallory Rubin]

The end of season three. Like, we said goodbye to Hop now immediately. And obviously time travel is a huge part of this show. In general. They've been setting up massive time travel endgame stuff for many, many seasons. They're playing with it. Characters have said the words time travel out loud in these episodes so far. Like some of that is we're going back in time through these memories and maybe that's the format we'll take. Maybe there will be a more literal hour. Characters go back into this locked date of the Upside Down. None of that would surprise me. The end of season three, when we thought Hopper died. And then we go through this like, very fascinatingly edited sequence where we're moving in and out of time and we're talking about time and Hop's letter. El is reading his let and I'M sobbing, I'm weeping. I'm so moved and sad. Theory brain right away is like, are they gonna go back in time and save Hop? Did Hop get out? We had this whole sequence showing us, like, the. I was thrilled he was okay, but, like, we went through that with that character, and then he was okay. So to kind of play with that again, I didn't love.

[Chris Ryan]

I just. I hope they don't do it again.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then came back. I'm happy Max is here, but. Yeah, I think the. I don't need characters to die, but I. I think they need to be careful with the fake out death stuff because then it starts to. You do risk that it starts to feel cheap or like a taunt rather than. Yeah. So, like, I don't know who's gonna actually die.

[Chris Ryan]

You can have character be in peril and get saved.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I think if you do the, like, death montage for a character more than once, it's cheap. So, honestly, Hopper would be one of the more logical people to go on the. In this cast. Yeah. But they have. They have really memorialized this guy. This would be the third time, I think.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. It almost made me think for the first time ever, I was like, is he safe? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I like what you have to say, though, but stakes doesn't have to mean death. Yeah, but it would be. It would. But, like, there aren't a lot of options when you're talking about a demigorgon chasing you. The last thing I wanted to talk to you about, we've mentioned it a couple of times. Is the Lost Sister coming back.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That they thought it was Vecna behind the door. It's, in fact, Callie. I have not gone back to watch the Lost Sister. I remember when that episode aired being kind of intrigued by it, and I liked the creativity to imagine what else could we do at this time period and where could we go? And, like, theoretically, these people would, from time to time, try to run away from Hawkins, try to get away from this shit. And there would be all sorts of different, like, fun executions of this that could happen. And I think they tried that with sending them all to California.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But it didn't have the same kind of. Because they send them as a group. Because they sent, like, a bunch of characters to California.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It never really felt like it was as gutsy as, like, what if we, like, did, like, a backdoor pilot of, like, other kids out there that are like. L. Obviously, they.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

They.

[Chris Ryan]

They backed off of that, if that was ever an idea. But they have not fully cashed the chip. Like, they. They brought her back, and they've brought her back and set her up as a very crucial, like, element to the last couple of episodes of the series. So you're largely pro.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I guess I would say I admire the chutzpah, and I also admire, just like, I think embracing what TV is medium allows you to do, which is tweak and refine and not just say, all right, that didn't work. But, like, why didn't it work? Let's try to make it work this time. I think that because the stuff with the other kids at the lab was so strong in season four, trying to make eight work again is, like, a noble intent, I would say. So there's some power. And, like, how could Kali's powers work in the story? Questions I have that are, like. Like, interesting. Right. In season two, her powers are different. She basically can, like, make people see things that aren't there. Right. There's, like, the butterfly, the spiders crawling on hands, making the cops who are pursuing them think that there's, like, a collapsing rock face in front of a tunnel so they can get away. Then in season four, we're in the 79 flashbacks in the lab, and they do kind of just very quickly, like, nod to. And lampshade. Oh, yeah. But, like, before 8 left, like, she's not there for that. Right. But all the other kids appear to have the same powers as Alan won. So they kind of, like, said, no, this is like, the power set. They're not. Maybe different kid to kid now. Could they change that again? Sure. I'm sort of interested to see where that is, depending on what kind of.

[Chris Ryan]

Music you're listening to at any given moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. Like, can El. Can Elle and eight team up? Basically. That's intriguing. What I'm more interested in and what I am kind of assuming the purpose of bringing eight back is, is to take 11 back to a place of, like. Oh, yeah. One was one of, like. He also was a kid who Brenner turned into a lab rat. And so is he a.

[Chris Ryan]

To be fair, it was somewhat disturbing before he got into the lab, though.

[Mallory Rubin]

He did have a. There was the Creel massacre. He killed his mom. He killed his sister, and he left his father to be tormented in psychiatric ward. A little bit of a ratchet tormented by his demons.

[Chris Ryan]

For it wasn't just like, hey, take my baby. It was like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, as you noted with the moment with Max saying, like, he won't come into this cave, and the look on his face Pure terror. Like, there's stuff we're going to learn about Henry's past and. And his kind of further origin story. But in season four, 11, he was obviously trying to, like, actively recruit her. And he was like, let's do this together.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

Then she saw what he did in the massacre and was like, throw him out. Sent him. Sent him down, sent him through to the other dimension. But she was very much like, papa did this to both of us. Sure. And so I'm wondering if Eight coming back into the story sends Eleven into a little bit more of an empathetic headspace again with Vecna, or are they.

[Chris Ryan]

Bringing her back Cause of her specific skill set of being able to, like, give people this illusion of a world that they're seeing? And, like, is that gonna be the. Is that gonna somehow be, like, how they defeat Vector or something?

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think it also could connect just more directly to what you were saying is interesting to you, which is, like, the military government aspect, because there's that line from Dr. K to Hopper, like, the. The other. The other one. Like, why are you. Wait, you brought 11 here? Like, why do you. We don't know at that point who's in the door, behind the door. We just know it's not Vecna, which I did think made 11's like, it's definitely Vecna thing. Like, kind of inert as a storytelling device. I don't love. When we're that far.

[Chris Ryan]

Sometimes it feels like they've written themselves into corners and think of that as, like, an exciting, stimulating exercise.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

But then it's like you just threw away, like, nine scenes of tv because they're so convinced Vecna's just behind a door.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, like, it's like, do you. Or like, they're like, henry's behind the door, but Vecna's on. I'm like, but you blew Henry into pieces. So, like, you know, so then there's the like.

[Mallory Rubin]

But then there's the question of, like, well, what. Why do they have eat there? Is it because they're trying to take something from her powers and create other power people the way that Brenner did with one?

[Chris Ryan]

Are they still is, like, all of her powers. What's creating the Upside Down? Like, I have no idea.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, is she like those hedgehogs, those sonic cannons that were destabilizing 11? And now we've seen, like, many devices over the seasons. You had, like, the collars that Brenner was using. You had the pill in his neck. That 11 takes out. Now we have these cannons, like, they seemed to be surrounding eight, so that they were, like, stifling her powers. Are they using her to power other things that could combat 11? Like, you know, there are all sorts of questions. I'd say, like, I don't need a ton of eight in the final four episodes is sort of how I feel to your point, about other characters. I want time for, like, Max to come back and be with Lucas. I want them to go see their movie, like, in the little draw. I am really invested in Will and the new relationship with Will and Robin and everything with Will and Mike and their friendship. I'm very deeply invested in Steve and Dustin having a breakthrough again and reconnecting emotionally. I just love the two of them. I'm completely fine with, like, Nancy and Jonathan saying, maybe let's, like, go date other people. I would be okay with that outcome, you know, I'd like the Wheelers to be okay, I guess, as a family, you know.

[Chris Ryan]

That's his ringing endorsement for Ted's medical status.

[Mallory Rubin]

I hope Ted makes it. I hope Ted makes it.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, the good thing is, is that we only have a couple of weeks to wait. I think that this is actually. I was skeptical about it. I thought they were milking it. I know that I don't really know how the finale in movie theaters thing is gonna work.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Will you go see it in a theater?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

You'll watch it at home. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Isn't it, like, two and a half hours?

[Mallory Rubin]

It's quite long. Yeah, it is. On New Year's Eve.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not going to a movie theater to watch the finale of Stranger Things on New Year's Eve. Are you. You hope they screen it. They're not gonna screen it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I feel like no chance they're gonna screen the finale. That just seems very unlikely to me. Will I see it in a theater? Maybe.

[Chris Ryan]

Can I run through some hits from this episode of Layman with you just really quickly? I would love it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love this show.

[Chris Ryan]

This show's fucking batshit now. Like, not now. The tonal jumps in this. This was a very kind of taught episode of television in some ways because the scenes don't run as, like, mindlessly long as in the first episode where, like, the dinner is just 13 minutes and stuff. So you get these disparate elements.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Any one of which, I guess, are pretty interesting. I. I have to say, I. I love Ali Larder. I. I do think that it's absurd, what, her just blowing him, like, multiple times in this episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right. I don't agree.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not here to legislate. Or body shame. Of course not. Or sex shame, anyone.

[Mallory Rubin]

I wouldn't expect you to. The only note I have on this, there's not a single part of me that needs convincing that Angela would try to suck Tommy's dick in the car not once, but twice in one day.

[Chris Ryan]

But when they juxtapose it with a chemical spill, it's kind of off putting both. Both in terms of taking the chemical spill seriously and any kind of horniness that you could get from Angela to me.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is why the show is perfect. To go from an opening of a bunch of wild boar and hunters have dropped dead from a toxic noxious gas that over the course of the episode, Dale will sort of, but not really, help us understand. Multiple times I'm like, why are they telling trail he can't come down? The thing's not. I think because it's like they said, the gas is heavy, but, like, there on the ground, Couldn't he just run to them? And then they all. They have cars and keys. Can they just leave? Like, waiting seems so much more perilous. Batshit. The only actual thing that didn't make sense to me in the entire episode, the only one, was it the cop who, when Angela was given her citation, a blowjob, was like, I could give you a citation, but I won't. No, it wasn't that. It was that both times, Tommy was like, what's up with all the teeth? And I'm sorry. Angela didn't get where she is by not knowing how to give a blowjob. I don't buy that at all. At all.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't really know if I have a comment on that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think you. You probably do. What is she saying?

[Chris Ryan]

She's driving 80 miles per hour. It's Texas. There's basically no speed limit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Here's the thing that she says in this episode. Your job on this planet is to achieve the impossible. Mine is to properly motivate. That's why God created tits.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I. I noted that line as well.

[Mallory Rubin]

That woman knows how to give a blowjob. I thought this episode was so wonderfully entertaining, and it crystallized for me something that I already knew, but now am prepared to say out loud. Is Landman the best show on tv? Of course not. But is it the most entertaining?

[Chris Ryan]

It is definitely for its runtime, because you just really don't know what you're gonna get in any given scene, you know, and so the way that this episode Ends which. I'll spoil this third episode of Landman for anybody who hasn't watched it. It which is seeming. Well, no. A seeming union of both financial resources, but also just like hearts between MTEX Oil, the Norris family.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

And Andy Garcia's cartel funded investment fund or investment group, Danny Morrell. And I'm like, I can't quite tell whether Taylor Sheridan's like, no, this guy is a good guy. This, the cartel accountant is like a decent dude or not. Like there is a moment where I'm like. When he's like, trust has to be earned or friendship has to be earned. I'm like, but like he owns your family. Like, what are you talking about?

[Mallory Rubin]

I. So I thought that both of the really long, like the really long. We're in the gentleman's club sequence with Danny Morelli, Andy Garcarus, the Cattleman's Club. Cattlemen's Club. And the initial scene where Tommy goes to his office because he's basically like, don't fuck over my son. Right. I thought both of these scenes were just like breathtakingly magical.

[Chris Ryan]

Andy Garcia is Andy Garcia.

[Mallory Rubin]

He should definitely win an Emmy for this role.

[Chris Ryan]

He's been on screen for 80 seconds, Val.

[Mallory Rubin]

Then give him 80 Emmys as far as I'm concerned. Because each second is just resplendent. When Tommy initially walked in and Andy Garcia walked around the desk and shook his hand and introduced himself, I was like, wait, what is happening? Why do these characters, why are they acting like they don't know each other and didn't have this like life altering moment?

[Chris Ryan]

Tommy was gonna be killed by the cartel and Danny saves him, intervened, which then. Which obviously is to blackmail him. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is the whole point. Right. It's not that they don't remember meeting. Of course Tommy saw him on the paper and was like, oh, no, I know who this guy is. It's from Danny Morrell's perspective. Now we become new people to each other. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Calls him Thomas. I loved the way the mind fuck of how he talked to your point about like, wait, does Taylor Sheridan actually think he's like maybe a stand up dude?

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe.

[Mallory Rubin]

I loved the way that he talked about to Tommy about Cooper and it consistently was just like he's. Do you think what's really going on here is that you're embarrassed that he identified a market and efficiency and you're not. You're Billy Bean and you're fucking not.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like also, why can't you just be.

[Chris Ryan]

Proud of your son just like this. Well, hits homers. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

All of that is incredible. And then. Yeah, the moment at the end where he basically like makes the. The appeal, the pitch to. To Cammie, he's like. Like, I invest in people, you know? Which of course is something that Tommy is not going to support and not going to want. Or is he eventually, because they have this $400 million lawsuit. They've got to drill this offshore gas well. They can't find the money in general. Allan, the Allen just. Friday afternoon happy hour. Where's Monty's money? They're actually like this whole. They took 60%. They can take over the lease. Dale tells us that the. The oil. Yeah, it's everywhere. It's all. It's at the pooling on the ground, the gas is everywhere. You should tails line. To me, I would probably just increase our wrongful death.

[Chris Ryan]

That was great. Okay. The oil company stuff, the oil drilling stuff. I found the chemical scene, the chemical spill scenes, like, gripping. I actually think Demi Moore is doing quite good work this season and would love her to get out of. I have my glasses on and I'm reading emails and out in the world a little.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Little bit more.

[Mallory Rubin]

What about just out on her back patio wailing on the slabs with the coyotes meeting her howls.

[Chris Ryan]

It's basically like a Pluribus episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

And the.

[Chris Ryan]

The Norris, specifically the Norris male lineage is interesting to me. I love Ali Larder.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Angela is my favorite character. Ainsley and Angela are ridiculous creations. Do you care about Ariana's career as a bartender?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't. I was.

[Chris Ryan]

This is so Yellowstone, though, to be like, now the Patch is a thing and like the bartender of the Patch is actually the greatest bartender of all time.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is what I was exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

That guy's been getting called an. For like Barney.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is that his name? I was like, oh, he's just like kind of a rip. Yeah, like a little bit. He's just kind of rip. That was a real Yellowstone sequence. I agree. I am not invested in the slightest in Ariana. So when she broke up with Cooper, even though I did not really allow myself to believe that that meant the end of that storyline, I was content for it to be the end of that storyline. It does not seem that is the case. And that's okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you invested in Rebecca's wellness journey and her ability to. To lift?

[Mallory Rubin]

I am definitely invested in Tommy, who takes more calls in his car than any person in the history of the world.

[Chris Ryan]

Tommy does is knowing to hang off across. Actually, while we're here, I'm going to.

[Mallory Rubin]

Look up the drive I'm talking for at least an hour after a botched blowjob. My head's so fucked up right now. And then Rebecca cuts in. I'm still on the phone.

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All right.

[Mallory Rubin]

How does Tommy not know to hang up that call? I guess he says, he explains it right there. My head's so fucked up right now.

[Chris Ryan]

Now Midland to Fort Worth is four and a half hours. The way Tommy drives, call it 3:50.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, that would explain why he was like, I have a noon meeting every episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Tommy is doing an eight, eight hour, eight hours a day of driving.

[Mallory Rubin]

At least you know, Cammie is not wrong when she's like, it would be good to have you in Fort Worth. They do, they use the plane a lot.

[Chris Ryan]

They use the plane a lot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Now. I know there's a note on the plane. So that's worrying.

[Chris Ryan]

The other thing that I think is hilarious about this is while Tommy is doing all this driving and taking all these calls, Cooper cannot get a phone call. Like, Cooper always has to wait somewhere weird or show up somewhere in a jacket to get a conversation with his dad, even though Cooper's sitting on a billion dollars worth of oil.

[Mallory Rubin]

I quite enjoyed when Heinsley said that Cooper smelled like hot dogs in this episode. I thought that was great. That made me chuckle.

[Chris Ryan]

I, I, I'm so Stranger Things pill that I was like, oh, I wonder what the story is with Ainsley and Cooper. Like, what did he do? Like, like nothing.

[Mallory Rubin]

DND campaign was interrupted by Lady Applejack when I found the, the heart to heart about fatherhood and what you pass down to your sons and cycles and how they repeat between Tommy and Cooper in episode two.

[Chris Ryan]

Tears.

[Mallory Rubin]

To be more emotionally impactful than I was quite prepared to confront. I am so interested to see what happens next week because it's the funeral. We know it's the funeral.

[Chris Ryan]

Finally get some Sam Elliott. I gotta tell you, being a guest star or a, you know, a season arc on Landman seems like a great gig because.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So far, Sam Elliott hasn't gotten out of a wheelchair where he's just looked at the sunset. Yeah, he's just at the sunset. Andy Garcia has gotten to wear cool suits.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And sit down.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, he's sitting at the Cattleman's Club.

[Mallory Rubin]

Smoked a cigar, had a couple drinks, has a hot wife.

[Chris Ryan]

It just seems like what Andy Garcia does. Anyway.

[Mallory Rubin]

Awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

All right, Mallory, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for breaking down Stranger Things with me. I really appreciate it and pleasure as always, man. I'll be back later. In the week, probably with Andy. We are going to be talking Pluribus. We'll talk some other stuff and then we're getting ready for best of the year year. So we're doing our. Our late crash crashing in some like how. And Harper, I'm trying to just get everything done before I get door at the top. No spoilers. Okay, bye, guys.