Super Bowl Trailers: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Plus, ‘Industry’ S4E5 and ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Episode 4.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Watch – Super Bowl Trailers: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Plus, ‘Industry’ S4E5 and ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Episode 4 (Feb 9, 2026)

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Episode Overview

Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan, hosts of The Watch from The Ringer, break down the pop culture eventfulness of Super Bowl weekend—especially dissecting the barrage of movie trailers and commercials, critiquing the state of the ad industry, and celebrating/commiserating over the game. They then dive into recaps and analysis of Industry Season 4, Episode 5 (“Eyes Without a Face”) and A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Episode 4. The conversation is characteristically sharp, wry, and deeply informed by both hosts’ years covering TV and film.

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Super Bowl as Television: Ads, Trailers, and Cultural Commentary

Setting the Scene & Super Bowl Wrap-up

• The hosts discuss watching the Super Bowl together, mostly reflecting on its defensive nature and how it "hits different" when it's not their teams.
• There are playful asides about Andy’s choice of Oakland A’s hat (“correcting historical wrongs in Moneyball,” 04:00) and nostalgia for 1990s sports style.
• They note the Super Bowl's function as a television event, essentially “a showcase for American culture and commerce” (03:12).

The Trailers: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

1. The Adventures of Cliff Booth (05:02)

• Initial Reaction: Both hosts are surprised but excited by the trailer, which cements the team of Fincher and Tarantino (with Brad Pitt).
• Visual Tone: Andy notes, “The synthesis of Tarantino and Fincher. It looks so Fincher to me” (05:24).
• Cast Callouts: Excitement about fresh casting, especially Elizabeth Debicki and Yahya Abdul-Mateen.
• Platform Discussion: Acknowledgement that it’s a Netflix project, and both agree the “theatrical vs. streaming” debate is overblown for directors like Fincher (“Fincher’s been working for Netflix for years,” 07:55).
• Quote: “If you’re doing this [Budweiser Clydesdales for Mandalorian], you have no faith in your project.” – Andy (17:13)

2. Disclosure Day (Spielberg’s Alien Movie) (09:54)

• Spielberg is returning to “classic” material: “The idea of him revisiting this kind of subject matter is… very exciting. And I am that kind of Spielberg fan.” – Andy (10:24)
• The trailer seems to blend political-thriller aesthetics (The Post) with classic Spielberg alien awe and wonder.
• The hosts call out the “relevance” of the story—mixing government secrecy/whistleblowing with classic sci-fi spectacle.

3. Project Hail Mary (14:18)

• Ryan Gosling and Lord Miller’s new space adventure, based on Andy Weir’s novel.
• Andy critiques the marketing: “I would just encourage them to be a little bit more like Fincher when it comes to cutting your trailers … get a little bit more creative.” (15:39)
• The consensus: already sold on principle, not sure why the marketing feels like oversharing.

4. The Mandalorian and Grogu Movie (17:00)

• Andy’s impassioned take: “Fuck this movie, fuck this whole thing, dog … If you’re invoking Budweiser Clydesdales before the film comes out, you have no sauce.” (17:15)
• Chris agrees: nothing new in the teaser, “just cartoon slop” (27:27).
• Both express distaste for the nostalgic pandering and AI-driven ad avalanche.

The Adpocalypse: Tech Fatigue and Generational Malaise (18:20)

Key segment: The onslaught of AI and tech advertisements is dissected with alarm. Andy cites a Wake Up newsletter tally: “fourteen tech ads,” with OpenAI, Meta, Microsoft, etc.

• Generational Disgust: “Here we are, generationally cooked” – Chris (19:06)
• Surrealism of Modern Ad Culture: “What's up, man? Can we not get back to what we used to be?” – Andy (18:58)
• Celebrity Endorsement Fatigue: Andy and Chris wonder why major actors are still chasing commercial deals (“When’s it enough money?” – Andy, 20:30).

Disturbing Ads

• Crypto Ads: “Which one was more disturbing: the Backstreet Boys Coinbase ad or the disclaimer that crypto is volatile?” (19:35)
• Dunkin and Ben Affleck: “That was absolutely from an unknown gate of Dante’s Hell.” – Chris (19:57)
• AI Discourse: Extended digression on the perils and strangeness of AI in creative restoration (e.g., Orson Welles’ Magnificent Ambersons, 23:08), with Chris calling it “dork shit” but a “fascinating” debate.

Memorable Quote

• “All of this is gross. All of AI is trash. Sorry, it's trash. And yet we're all just like, oh, it's interesting. I guess it's propping up the economy a little bit.” – Andy (22:49)

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TV Recap: Industry S4E5 – "Eyes Without a Face"

Episode Fundamentals

• Harrowing, dense episode centered on unspooling the fraud at the center of the “Tender” company. The show merges financial thriller with espionage and character drama.

Harper & Eric: Ongoing Opaqueness

• Harper’s mother dies off-screen; the resulting character beat is not cliché “TV trauma.” Instead, Harper remains elusive, stating: “I wanted her to live long enough to bend the knee and see what a titan I have become.” (32:13)
• Chris praises the show's commitment to making Harper unknowable as both “deeply compelling and at times, deeply frustrating” (32:49). Andy finds the “challenge of thinking about television differently” exhilarating (31:05).
• Yasmin (absent from this episode) is praised for her more traditional, yet equally rich, character arc: “her backstory has gone from background to foreground and is now the text” (36:43).

Emotional Dynamics

• The hosts question how much “recognizable humanity” is present for Harper, worrying that “increasingly, everything with Harper is not just transactional, it is increasingly offscreen.” – Chris (43:33)

The Ascendant Espionage/Thriller Element

• Tension & Paranoia: Both recent episodes introduced an “unexplained sense of menace,” with hints of surveillance, assault, and double-crosses (“Sweet Pea gets assaulted in a bar bathroom after sharing her location with Tender’s CFO,” 44:28).
• The show’s genre elasticity earns admiration: “It’s been such a remarkable genre shift within the framework of the show itself that I’m just along for the ride.” – Andy (48:05)
• The global setting (Accra, Ghana) and visual vibrancy receive special praise for broadening Industry’s palette (46:05).

Other Notable Moments

• Eric’s hotel-room entropy—a man who sought power ending up “living in a bathrobe, eating BLTs, watching pornography, or seeing sex workers. Is he just trapped, or is this a commentary?” (54:44)

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TV Recap: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, Episode 4

Praise for Simplicity and Strength of Storytelling

• “What a fucking awesome piece of TV that was.” – Andy (57:24)
• Both hosts reflect on how not reading George R.R. Martin’s books in the past “blinded [them] to the strengths” of his storytelling (58:44).
• The show is lauded for its approachable, focused storytelling: “The simplicity of this show and the fixed perspective allows me to see, this guy’s a really good storyteller.” – Chris (58:44)
• The Dunk and Egg format—a small-scale, character-driven “short story”—feels refreshing after sprawling epic fantasy.

World-building Touches

• Targaryen family dynamics, the politics of knightly tournaments, and the show's ability to “undercut what we expect from this world” (64:48) are highlights.
• Andy: “We’re actually seeing this guy live the virtues of being a knight, learn and teach the virtues of being a knight, and bring out the best and worst in other characters.” (60:04)

Adaptation as an Art Form

• The hosts discuss adaptation, noting that showrunner Ira Parker is “doing a very able adaptation because he is like, I know why people like this. It’s not because I’m me… it’s because they really want to see the story they’ve read.” – Andy (69:01)
• The point is made that successful adaptation requires both fidelity and enthusiasm for the material.

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “The synthesis of Tarantino and Fincher. It looks so Fincher to me.” – Andy (05:24)
• “Here we are, generationally cooked. I'd like to apologize to Kaya and anyone else below Kaya's age… it's a wrap.” – Chris (19:06)
• “All of this is gross. All of AI is trash.” – Andy (22:49)
• “The challenge of making a show about people who ‘aren’t likable’ is that you shade them with degrees of recognizable humanity...” – Chris (42:46)
• “It’s been such a remarkable genre shift within the framework of the show itself that I’m just along for the ride.” – Andy (48:05)
• “What a fucking awesome piece of TV that was.” – Andy (57:24)
• “The simplicity of this show and the fixed perspective allows me to see, this guy’s a really good storyteller.” – Chris (58:44)

Key Timestamps for Segments

• [05:02] Trailer discussion: Cliff Booth
• [09:54] Disclosure Day trailer / Spielberg
• [14:18] Project Hail Mary
• [17:00] Mandalorian & Grogu
• [18:20] Ad commentary + AI/crypto/tech ad fatigue
• [29:28] Industry S4E5 recap begins
• [57:18] A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms analysis

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Tone & Style

The episode is playful, self-aware, and occasionally exasperated, mixing pop culture insider analysis with exhausted generational skepticism. The hosts are quick with jokes but also deliver astute, layered critiques—be it of celebrity sell-outs, the economics of streaming, or the nuances of TV writing.

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Final Take

This episode of The Watch is essential listening for fans of nuanced pop culture analysis. You'll get everything from a dissection of Super Bowl media strategies and the bleakness of modern advertising, to deep, writerly breakdowns of two standout pieces of contemporary TV—Industry and A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. Come for the recaps, stay for the existential crisis about AI and Ben Affleck’s commercial choices.

Transcript

[Host 1]

This episode is brought to you by the Focus Features film Hamnet from director Chloe Zhao and producers Steven Spielberg and Sam Mendez. AFI Hales. Hamnet lifts the audience high above humanity. And now the Golden Globe winner for best picture of the year has been nominated for eight Academy Awards, including best Actress Jessie Buckley and best picture of the year. Hamnet. Our stories live forever.

[Chris Ryan]

Ready?

[Host 1]

PG13 may be inappropriate for children under 13 now playing in theaters everywhere.

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[Andy Greenwald]

I need sports to have to clear the room.

[Chris Ryan]

Stand up and walk now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, coming off the bench in a full suit of armor, it's Andy Greenwald.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't know if you were talking about me or Patriots offensive lineman of Will Campbell. Back up.

[Andy Greenwald]

We can do game talk if you want. Andy, it's great to see you today. Industry and knighted seven kingdoms the episodes that came out on Friday, a little bit of super bowl talk because we got a lot of ads and trailers that we wanted to discuss and we spent it together. And we spent it together. I will say that my favorite thing that I've seen so far is there was a tweet that was Will Campbell quote that was like I will die protecting Drake May. And then it said Will Campbell. Now it's just a picture of a.

[Chris Ryan]

Remember the old don't get fired.

[Andy Greenwald]

You hate to see it.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I'll just say that we are all Cousin Sal.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think we're all Devin Witherspoon. I wish we were yeah, yeah. Good outcome.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Fine game, you know, like, very defensive. I. I had a feeling it was going to be like a. Like, Steelers Bearsy, kind of like very. Was that a Steelers Bears or was that Colts Bears that year?

[Chris Ryan]

The vibe is correct, even if the facts are wrong. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I can't remember what year Prince played a Bears super bowl, didn't he?

[Chris Ryan]

You're asking me, like I'm gonna remember more than you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I watched it at your apartment in Brooklyn.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but I was probably. I was probably stirring the chili or.

[Andy Greenwald]

Something at the time.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I mean? Not a metaphor. It probably was.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thewatchpify.com if you wanna email us thewatchpod. If you wanna follow us on Instagram, Ringer TV, on YouTube. If you wanna watch us there, you can watch us on Spotify as well, where you can also listen to us. Let's talk a little bit about the super bowl as a piece of television.

[Chris Ryan]

Can I just sort of do a quick check on you? Because people who are not watching us on video will be surprised to know you have switched it up again. Football season has ended. You're not.

[Andy Greenwald]

The first thing Kai said to me was just like, what's up with the A's hat?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, so I'm. So you're wearing an Oakland A's hat. Let me ask you questions.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's take it back to core principles.

[Chris Ryan]

Hold on.

[Andy Greenwald]

First principles.

[Chris Ryan]

All right?

[Andy Greenwald]

If the hat is cool, you can wear it. That's what we used to do in eighth grade. White Sox hats, Raiders hats. We weren't like, oh, I'm such a huge fan.

[Chris Ryan]

So this is the defensiveness of the Seattle Seahawks right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Ace hat is for this because Barry Zito erasure will not stand.

[Chris Ryan]

And I.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I'm correcting historical wrong in Moneyball. I also just like the A's hat. They're no longer in Oakland. Not that I care. I like Oakland.

[Chris Ryan]

But I feel like you're all, like, you really?

[Andy Greenwald]

And weren't the A's traditionally, like, historically a Philadelphia franchise?

[Chris Ryan]

That's all I was. You didn't even. Let me give you. Here's what I was going to do. I was going to create guardrails for you. I'm like a Republican senator. Just stop talking, stop tweeting and I'll make it normal. I was going to say the Philadelphia Athletics. Totally fine. Also, you believe in the normalization of steroids and professionals.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm tired of all these rules, man.

[Chris Ryan]

Bash Brothers. Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. So the A's hat. I'm wearing an A's.

[Chris Ryan]

Hat. It looks great. You're telling a green color story today.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, sure. Green with envy for Seattle's defense. Let's talk a little bit about the advertisements.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Andy Greenwald]

So let's do trailers first, because that. And then we can talk a little bit about being on Hell's doorstep with some of the other commercials we were presented. Number one, I want to talk about adventures of Cliff Booth.

[Chris Ryan]

Rare for a surprise ad drop.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think I had heard that that was coming.

[Chris Ryan]

Here we go.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I just.

[Chris Ryan]

I had heard gatekeeping the news again.

[Andy Greenwald]

I had heard in between our last recording. And when.

[Chris Ryan]

When you say you heard, it did. Like an industry parakeet whispered in your ear.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't give up my sources.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, okay. Great.

[Andy Greenwald]

More than I could have ever hoped for. The synthesis of Tarantino and Fincher. It looks so Fincher to me. We have not gotten. I do not think we have gotten a quality in terms of, like, the. The video quality update, like, upload that we deserve yet. So I think people are criticizing, like, a certain flat look to it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I do not think that these are, like, what it's going to look like. But the vibe, the cast. Carlo Gagguino on a beach in Malibu, staring out into the sun. Come on. Come on.

[Chris Ryan]

I was surprised to get the trailer. I was also surprised, although no reason to be surprised, that it 100% looks like David Fincher directing a Tarantino movie. Yes. Like, that's what it's supposed to be. I'm not. This is not a criticism, the trailer.

[Andy Greenwald]

But it is very Fincher. That's how Fincher cuts his teasers. Oh, look at you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just saying.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I mean, you are the third chair in a popular movie podcast. I will defer to you on this. I just mean that, like, it was interesting. It was cool to see it in his accent, so to speak. It was glossier, shinier, more. I mean, I know it's set in the 70s, I believe, but it still felt more futuristic looking with the way that he lights things than what Tarantino does.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. It's also cool when a couple of people who have not been in either Fincher or Tarantino projects, for that matter, show up. And Elizabeth DeBecky, great. Really commanding. Commanding the entire frame. Scott Khan, even though I don't really even think we get to hear him speak, looks awesome in this Yahya Abdul Mateen, big fave of ours. So do you think he.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think he did it? Was able to do a double day at the Highland Park Theater where He also shot Wonder man where Cliff Booth was shooting.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if they shot the movie theater sequence. It looked like the vista to me, the inside.

[Chris Ryan]

But they were shooting on Figueroa.

[Andy Greenwald]

That would be great if he was just like, I'm here.

[Chris Ryan]

That's theater Kristen Stewart bought.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That's exciting.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's exciting shit.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Investing. You know what? Honestly, a really big glow up this weekend for the Highland park region. You know, just shout out between Kristen Stewart buying the movie theater and Villa's tacos being in the halftime show.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right.

[Chris Ryan]

Can I just ask you one other thing about the Cliff Booth thing? No official title, no official release date, but one unmistakable ta dum sound and a big red end at the end. Did you have any emotional reaction to that? Just because it feels. It's like, oh, my God, Fincher, Brad Pitt, Netflix. Like, did that. Did. Are we past that?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I'm past it.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, Fincher's been working for Netflix for years.

[Chris Ryan]

True.

[Andy Greenwald]

And the back scratching that goes on between the two is Elite.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The movies that he has made for them, bank the Killer. The fact that they even let him do what he did on Mindhunter. And I don't think that they were like, no more Mindhunter. I think he was like, I just Simply can't make 10 hours of TV in meticulous period detail.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that's true. And also worth noting that, like, the idea that Netflix is somehow just resolutely anti art is not really the case. It's not borne out.

[Andy Greenwald]

I understand that. I would prefer that Fincher movies were in theaters for 45 days and then, like, an extended period of time.

[Chris Ryan]

But.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's antithetical to a lot of what Tarantino obviously preaches in terms of, like, the theatrical experience and also the shooting on film experience. But. But. But few places would fund this film in the manner in which it needs to be funded for Fincher to make it. They shot it in la. I know there's gonna be a lot of digital effects in it, like there are in many Fincher movies.

[Chris Ryan]

But, I mean, Netflix is. We were talking about it last week. It's semi unrelated, but David Lynch's last project, Unrecorded Night, was going to be made for Netflix. Yeah. It didn't get made because of his health. It was not made because Netflix decided.

[Andy Greenwald]

Netflix was like, can you put a.

[Chris Ryan]

Can some of this be cake?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

They didn't do that. Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, no, I don't have any reservations about it. If. If there had been a bidding war for this movie and everybody was like, we'll give you $200 million to make a shot in LA sequel or continuing adventure. Yeah, of. Of the Brad Pitt character. Like maybe like we could have a conversation about it, but it doesn't sound like there was much of a debate. And also Tarantino, not quite as kept, but has also worked with Netflix in so much as hateful8 was basically recut into a miniseries of sorts for Netflix. And I do think that there is an ongoing relationship there.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, well said.

[Andy Greenwald]

Disclosure Day, the Steven Spielberg aliens movie. Yeah, Well, I don't know. They didn't specifically say it's aliens, but I think we can.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you think is coming out of the cloud? Exactly? Sorry, like, did you. They didn't say, do you think that's the new JetBlue route that lands Long Beach?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think I've ever actually had like a very long conversation with you about the films of Steven Spielberg.

[Chris Ryan]

That seems like weird lacunae in our 30 year relationship.

[Andy Greenwald]

So. But for a certain kind of Spielberg fan, the idea of him revisiting this kind of subject matter is exciting. Very exciting. And I am that kind of Spielberg fan.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it fair to say, am I wrong to think that it's. Is this in the Close Encounters universe or is it just that anything about aliens that he does. Because the spaceship that again, we don't know it was a spaceship, I think that's. We don't know. That seemed. It looked a little. Close Encounters.

[Andy Greenwald]

Y. Yeah, I mean, you know, War of the Worlds.

[Chris Ryan]

Great movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

Close encounters. He's E.T. he has dabbled and engaged with the idea of extraterrestrial life over the course of his career. And in different ways, like. And sometimes in confusion and in mystery and in wonder and in innocence and sometimes with fear and trepidation and you know, what it would mean to the human population. This is interesting too, because the premise of this film seems to be Josh o' Connor's character, whoever he is, is in possession of a world changing piece of information that he decides he wants to share with everybody in the world, much to the chagrin of forces beyond his control trying to stop him. So obviously in today's kind of political moment and cultural moment, like whistleblowing and revealing the truth about things is pretty top of mind.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, and it felt very similar to the post in the sense. No, I'm serious.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're right.

[Chris Ryan]

I know. Like, I found that actually very exciting. It does. The movie's called do you like the Post? Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Also, I like the films of Steven Spielberg. Maybe I shouldn't say that. Sorry to be predictable. I am not zagging on that. I find them thrilling and always worth engaging with. And I think that Disclosure Day seems to have found an interesting new lane for this type of film. If it does combine the political conspiracy thriller with actual aliens emerging from the clouds. Exciting. Good cast. Relevant. Seems like democracy and other things may die in darkness in this film. Which is good because it's accurate.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great cast. Josh o', Connor, Emily Blunt, Colin Firth, Colman Domingo. E. Fuson, I think.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So very cool. I am ordering these in my levels of anticipation from most anticipated to.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought you meant the cast, which was a bad look for Eve Hewson.

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think she's ever heard your Bono impression?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but I'm sure she. There's a chance that she's aware that we talked about the Nick a lot.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because I don't know that when we were doing that there was a ton of people out there breaking down multiple episodes of the Nick.

[Chris Ryan]

What are the odds? And maybe a super fan could let us know that one of the episodes where we talked about Eve Hewson's performance on the Cinemax original program the Nick was also an episode where you did your Bono calling George Bush live on stage imitation from the Nick.

[Andy Greenwald]

I took that from you. I feel like.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but you. But at a certain point like when you. You ran and I never could run. So it's yours now. Once you did it for. For Colin Farrell, it's yours.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's hung around two times that I've actually just like really, really, really felt small in this world. Were when Bill encouraged me to do Wayne Jenkins for Glen Powell and he had no idea what I was talking about. And when I did bottom for Colin Farrell and he probably thought that was a racially motivated crime. Did you actually don't remember his reaction. But it didn't seem to be effusive.

[Chris Ryan]

Where did you go in your process when you realized that like you have been pushed onto the stage, you can't back out. It's going to go probably a certain way. Like how do you do that?

[Andy Greenwald]

It worked for Bill, not for Colin Farrell. So at the end of the day you gotta kind of like make sure the check gets signed.

[Chris Ryan]

Which is why you believe Drake may should have received Justin Herbert's vote for mvp.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right. Project Hail Mary. There have been a couple of trailers for this. I don't. I did not read the book. Andy Weir, writer of the Martian, huge fan of that story and that film. Did not read that book either. So I'm not trying to claim anything otherwise, but it certainly seems like they put the entire movie into the couple of trailers that they have released for this film. Yes, I. I hope it's not too disappointing because of that. But this looks fun and cool. And Lord Miller directed it. And Ryan Gosling in the sort of I'm alone in space role that Matt Damon so ably acquitted himself at. Are you excited for this one?

[Chris Ryan]

I have. This is one of those things, like you've said about trailers, where I'm like, you had me. Ryan Gosling in a charming space adventure. Okay, we're good. It is odd to me the degree to which its marketing campaign has been like Steve Jobs at an Apple Convention in the 2000s. Like, every trailer is like, and one more thing, there's aliens.

[Andy Greenwald]

It is Amazon.

[Chris Ryan]

Relax.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's an Amazon movie, I think.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it?

[Andy Greenwald]

I believe so.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. No way of knowing.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think they're great at marketing, and I wonder whether or not that might have something to do with it. Like, I wonder whether they're just sort of like, this is the same as the Tomorrow War to us, like, how we're pushing it.

[Chris Ryan]

It is Amazon. You're right. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And so I would just. I encourage them to be a little bit more like David Fincher when it comes to cutting your trailers and get a little bit more creative and in.

[Chris Ryan]

Terms of cutting your staff at your newspaper. You know what I mean? Just branded a little bit differently. Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. The thing I am least excited about, and this honestly includes a bunch of stuff that we didn't talk about, like the Minions. The bottom, bottom, bottom, bottom, bottom. Seed. Here.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm gonna let you do this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

But I do want to say it did surprise me. We were, I believe, in the kitchen when the ads were going at this moment. And you, like, Like a moth to a flame, you were like, oh, that's a minion. You seemed to.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's not what I'm talking about.

[Chris Ryan]

I know. We're not going there.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's not what happened. We were sitting there, and a minion appears from a distance like, like the sun in Lawrence of Arabia and a camel riding out of the. You know, the desert.

[Chris Ryan]

I've seen that movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

A minion appears. That's great. I see him every day when I'm driving on the 101.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't have any problem with Minions.

[Chris Ryan]

You just seem pretty. I didn't Expect a Minions phase. Thankfully, not a major one. Like, I've had to sit through some of those movies in the theater, which is quite aggressive.

[Andy Greenwald]

Despicable Me is also Minions.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Part of the Minions universe, right? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So, yeah, Despicable Me is the. Is the fr. Is the franchise. And the Minions is kind of the spin off.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'd rather watch Minions in an AI Version of a Michael Hanukkah movie than see the Mandalorian and Grogu in this at this point.

[Chris Ryan]

Go cook.

[Andy Greenwald]

Fuck this movie. Fuck this whole thing, dog. And it's not because I'm like, oh, you can't besmirch Tauntauns by making them Budweiser Clydesdales. But if you're doing this, you have no faith in your project.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

If you're like, we need the nostalgia of Budweiser Clydesdale's. Am I saying that right?

[Chris Ryan]

With Landman Sam Elliott narrating?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Then you have no sauce.

[Chris Ryan]

Which word were you worried about mispronouncing, Budweiser or Clydesdale?

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what, it's just one of those things where I was like, is it Clydesdale?

[Chris Ryan]

No, it's Clyde Clyde.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I thought Clydesdale's. If that's what you are doing before the film comes out.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you're like, let's see. And also, why are you invoking beer? This is a movie for, like, kids.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, right. And then the trailer that was shown is just the one that they showed before.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. With still no dialogue, no story.

[Chris Ryan]

That ad was absolutely consistent with the rest of the absolute end times. AI slop, garbage spilling downhill. That was most of the commercials.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sean McNulty, who does the Wake up newsletter, which is good through the ankler. It's an excellent way to start your entertainment news morning.

[Chris Ryan]

If you, as you drive under the looming shadow of a minion, he put.

[Andy Greenwald]

Together this list of the advertisements from last night. There were 14 tech ads, including ones from OpenAI, Codex, Anthropic, Meta, Oakley, Squarespace, Microsoft, Copilot, Coinbase, Google, Gemini, ring. The ring one was diabolical. OpenAI Farming, Alexa +Salesforce, gensparkai.com, base44. And then there were a bunch of like, you know, get your prostate checked, lose weight, get a boner ads. What's up, man? We used to. Can we. Can we not get back to what we used to be?

[Chris Ryan]

Here we are, generationally cooked. I'd like to apologize to Kaya and anyone else below Kaya's age like, it's a wrap. If you'd like us to steer more into content where we talk about how much fun we had in the 90s and early 2000s.

[Andy Greenwald]

Kaya buys her Food First House sponsored by WeGovy. This mortgage is brought to you by OpenAI Codex.

[Chris Ryan]

The ad, I don't know why Trillion.

[Andy Greenwald]

Coinbase points to have this house.

[Chris Ryan]

Which one was more disturbing? Like, really? I would like. Genuinely, I'm asking the question. There's the ad that's just the lyrics to a Backstreet Boys song. And then it's like coinbase.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then there's like the little disclaimer that maybe someone encouraged them to have, which is like, crypto is volatile. Have fun. Like the end of a truth social post. Have fun.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you for your attention on this matter.

[Chris Ryan]

The other one, the Duncan one, was absolutely from an unknown gate of Dante's Hell. And I don't.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was tough. You know, Affleck has been very articulate about AI and about its role in Hollywood and the things he is nervous about versus the things he's not nervous about with that. And I've really enjoyed his comments on it. I do wonder whether some of that was like, salting the ground for this commercial.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I am always like, you know what the big thing is? Like, McConaughey is doing this a lot. He's in a ton of ads. It seems like Bradley Cooper and him are doing an Uber Eats ad. When's it enough money that this is what I'm saying? What do you like? And also, let me put it this way. It would be one thing if these guys were like, I'm in an Uber Eats commercial, because then I turn around and I make sure that like, all community art centers stay open. And maybe they do, maybe they do.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe Affleck was in a bidding war for the Highland Park Theater with Kristen Stewart. Do you know what I mean? Like, he's really ready to give back.

[Andy Greenwald]

And he's running his company and sure. But like, the idea of like, one for them, one for me, it doesn't seem to be what's happening here.

[Chris Ryan]

I wind horse fingers. I feel like there's just something sometimes.

[Andy Greenwald]

When are you guys on the last train out? This is what I'm saying.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. It is so evident that it is last call at the Money Bar for Earth and no one's talking about this. Do you know what I mean? Like, remember when, for example, young innocent us ten years ago, watching True Detective season two the first time, and we're like, haha, how fanciful. A cabal of pedophiles Ah, well, that's.

[Andy Greenwald]

Why I rewatched it.

[Chris Ryan]

I know. I'm saying you were right about this. As was New Pizzol and we're like, anyway, Veep's back on. Great. No problem. We roll. We roll. 10 years later. I'm just saying at a certain point, maybe we should take things literally and seriously. Why do they need so much money all the time?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I just don't understand because like, it would just be cool if like that. Okay, you're going to go make an AI like Human Resources or like Office Solutions ad.

[Chris Ryan]

Like one. A funny one.

[Andy Greenwald]

Haha. Yeah. Like AI can help you book your trip, then, then go make like a cool indie movie and give, give director like $5 million to like get it off the ground. Or I mean, I may. And maybe they are doing that and not advertising that. If that's the case, you're doing a terrible job telling your own story.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because all I see is like you guys doing these commercials incessantly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I don't know. I mean, it's just weird.

[Chris Ryan]

It's DD stands for Duncan Dignity. Well, I don't get it, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

That I, I, I didn't hear that ad with the sound on. For all I know. It was really witty. I just, that looked, it looked demonic to me.

[Chris Ryan]

It's all, it's all. I mean, this is the whole thing, right? Like, all of this is gross. All of AI is trash. Sorry, it's trash. And yet we're all just like, oh, it's interesting. I guess it's propping up the economy a little bit. Like when, when are we going to speak up, Chris? If only we had a platform.

[Andy Greenwald]

I encourage people, if they're. There is an interesting, there's a, it's an amazingly well written article and really fascinating. This most recent issue of the New Yorker, Michael Shulman wrote an article, this is usually my corner, about the scion of the, you know, Saatchi family. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, the, the British advertising firm is a film obsessive. And he has essentially dedicated his professional life to restoring Orson Welles vision for the Magnificent Ambersons using AI and is like shooting actors on soundstages to then like basically deep fake them into Joseph Cotton's body to be in Magnificent. But it's an amazing piece because it's also about how the work that this guy is doing is drawing from the like, fringe historian, film historian obsessives who are like, I have assembled all the production stills from the Magnificent Ambersons.

[Chris Ryan]

So we know the intent and the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Production screenplay and the notes from RKO to Wells about, like, what's been taken out. So there is this weird act of scholarship that's going on and because, like, this guy does not have the rights to Magnuson Anderson's. It's for academic purposes, air quotes. But it's an interesting article because I think, like, most of the time we hear about AI and we're like, so you're going to bring, you know, it'll be like Anthony Bourdain hanging out in the field of dreams cornfield or something. And it's like, this is hell.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But this is an interesting discussion about, like, what, like, what it means to, like, history and film history, but not. I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't mean, like, respectfully, that sounds like dork shit. Like, that sucks. Yeah. But it's interesting.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I wasn't trying to shoot you down. Like, I.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's not my movie.

[Chris Ryan]

As someone who often references New Yorker articles I just happened to read over the weekend, like, this is a safe space for that. What's the Watch's coverage plan for Mando and Grogu?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'll tell you this, it has definitely crossed my mind not to see this film. I'm talking to my guys about it.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

What kind of feedback are you getting from your team?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, they're worried about what it means for us as a podcast because I think people know we're the truth tellers. That's right. When it comes to Lucasfilm.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. Yeah. I mean, it fit in. It looked like cartoon slop. It fit in with everything else.

[Andy Greenwald]

Last night, Halftime.

[Chris Ryan]

Halftime was great.

[Andy Greenwald]

Halftime was great.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought that was a Bad Bunny's performance. I thought that was incredibly beautiful, surprising. Oh, I thought you were good. I thought we each picked one to watch. I thought we just self selected into the categories conceptually, as a show, I was really impressed by it because I can't remember a previous super bowl halftime show that was as much of a, like, narrative, almost theatrical performance that was less about racing through the hits in a way that felt like cumulative or with some momentum. It was an incredibly smart approach, I think, to an opportunity where he's the most streamed artist in the world and is incredibly popular. But there's also a large swath of mainstream watching it on NBC. Audience members who probably don't even know if they know a Bad Bunny song. They might know one or two, but they don't have that connection with the artist. So in a way, he was freed from the expectation of proving his. Proving that he deserved to be there via recognizable tunes and put on just like a. Absolutely. I was shocked to say I found deeply moving, carnivalistic, expressive, exciting, inclusive celebration.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I thought it was awesome. It was awesome as like a musical performance, as awesome as a piece of theater. I thought it was actually awesome as a piece of television. The way that they kind of moved.

[Chris Ryan]

Through it was thrilling.

[Andy Greenwald]

The sugar cane, like the telephone poles with the electrical infrastructure issues obviously, like it was just the symbolism of it, but also just the actual fun and joy of it was just really palpable.

[Chris Ryan]

It was deeply political without having to do anything, which I think is also a testament to important and interesting art. And also all these fucking losers hating on it like it's. She's whiny bitches. Have fun, you stupid hater losers. Like, honestly, clip that. Clip this. Grow up. Just like the fucking the Vance is clapping along to Kid Rock screaming a hernia out. Except he's lip syncing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Was Vance there?

[Chris Ryan]

I think so. I mean, that's his.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought he was in Italy getting fucking booed.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, that's right. Well, they're all. Honestly, who can tell? They all look the same to me. Like you fucking wish you were invited to a party where people are having fun and loving each other. Jesus Christ. This take brought to you by Coinbase.

[Andy Greenwald]

This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like analyzing plot twists, TaxAct guides you step by step to make sure you get your maximum refund. Get tips along the way. Add expert assist to talk to tax experts or let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details.

[Commercial Voice 2]

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[Andy Greenwald]

Let's get into industry. So we're going to talk about these. Was there anything else you want to talk about with the game?

[Chris Ryan]

It hits different when your team's not in it.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean my heart rate was just incredible.

[Chris Ryan]

We had a lovely time, honestly.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean it's just very chill. A very enjoyable afternoon and evening that I did not spend Spitting blood out of my nose, you know, like, it was just. I guess actually that last super bowl that we played was. Was pretty awesome. But I also didn't even know what to do with myself because it was so awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's a real problem. That's a real relatable problem.

[Andy Greenwald]

Episode 5 of season 4 is Eyes Without a Face. It was aired on Friday night to get out from under the Super Bowl. Super bowl rush on Sunday, which I think was wise of the people I saw over the weekend. Many people were talking about this. This episode kind of a. I was gonna say like a side quest. I was gonna say I'm not a bottle, but like, you know, kind of a. I. I think the industry has now made a season of interesting. Like, basically like the episode is the sort of side quest episode is actually the main quest.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if that makes any sense. But anyway, the episode's called Eyes Without a Face. I thought it could easily just been called the Thing is Nothing, which is the exclamation Eric makes when he finds out that tender is indeed just like a ghost ship operating on false promises and scams.

[Chris Ryan]

That also is a great summation of the first 10 minutes of this podcast of us turning our gimlet eyes to the state of the American culture and economy, so the show is relevant.

[Andy Greenwald]

Turning our gimlet eyes to Eric Chavez and Miguel Todd. This is.

[Chris Ryan]

This is a great turn for me. You gonna go up to Sacramento to see some games in the.

[Andy Greenwald]

I wanna, I wanna obviously talk about Accra and the, The Sweet Pea and Queben trip to. To Ghana. But I. I want to start with Eric and Harper here. I think Harper is. Is probably the. The most challenging gambit.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

That the protagonist is unknowable in this way.

[Chris Ryan]

Well said.

[Andy Greenwald]

I find that to be awesome. Like, I like the challenge of thinking about television differently than I usually do. Where a character is acting from a place, whether it's trauma or, you know, an old wound that they're trying to heal, whether they are stating outright what is their motivation or just clearly behaving as such. Harper is just a mystery. Harper arrives on the scene. You know, she's described as like a world eater by Eric in the first episode of this series. She's a little bit chameleonic in that she can kind of adjust to working for like, Tory businessmen or being in like, you know, a kind of a German rave or something like that. She can do whatever, but she has a certain, like, quality that doesn't ever go away. But you know, this is an interesting episode for her because her mother passes away off screen. Off screen. A woman we've never met. We've met the brother. And Harper's relationship to Eric and her conversation with him about her mother is really interesting because it's. It's about, like, whether or not backstory matters to me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And, you know, there's like, kind of a little bit of a fake out where you're waiting for Harper to be like, I just wanted my mom to love me, and that's why I'm, like, the way I am. And instead, she's like, I wanted her to live long enough to bend the knee and see what a titan I have become. And I wanted to ask you about, like, geolocating a character, making that character consistent in the importance of that. And whether or not you think it is industry breaking a rule or following.

[Chris Ryan]

A rule here, it's such a good question. And I think you've identified something that is deeply compelling and at times, deeply frustrating about the show, which is that it is based around someone who is almost entirely opaque. And my sense of it is. And this is something hopefully we'll get to talk to the guys about at season's end. But I think that they are motivated by a challenge that they've laid out to themselves. I'm not saying it was a challenge they laid down in season one because they'll admit to anyone that they were just throwing their best up at this wall, not thinking they. There was no point in the making of the pilot of the first season where they thought they would be making the season of television that they are making now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Which is a good thing. But I do think over time, it has evolved into a challenge and like a marker laid down being like, we are not going to play the traditional television game of backstory and explanation, of emotional motivation with this character. There's a moment I don't think it was this episode, but when she says, my. My trauma was traumatic, she's insistent that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Her childhood does not explain her adulthood.

[Chris Ryan]

And she refuses it. And she shuts that down for the people in her life, including the people in her life who are the audience. Which is runs counter to the last 15 years of television storytelling, which I admire. But it's challenging when you say, we are going to make this character an ongoing exercise in denial and counterintuitive storytelling thinking when you are trying to move grease the wheels of narrative across episodes the way everyone who makes a television show has to do. And I will say that more so than in Other seasons, her stasis. And it's not just stasis isn't the right word. It's that we are stuck in kind of a doom loop with how she treats people, particularly people like Eric, is more frustrating this season than in other seasons. Now, one of the things that these guys have proven really skilled at is in the great mixing board of life, you know, putting up, moving the dials in a way that you don't even notice it all coming together. So Yasmine doesn't appear in this episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

She does not.

[Chris Ryan]

And she's had remarkable highs thus far this season that have moved her story ball forward in a way. So, though, to your point about, like, which is the A story and which is the B story, this probably isn't Harper's showcase episode. That's still to come. So I'm willing to take it in over the course of a season. But there were in the early going, when she just unloads on Eric in, like, ways that are so excruciatingly cruel and cutting, which she's very skilled at doing to the point of he's left wondering why I keep doing this. That is also a tough gambit where we in the audience are like, why are we still doing this? Circling this clearly destructive relationship. I don't. I think we're in mid process, so I'm not judging it. And I think that what the episode did to its great credit is that Myhalla got to play the other side of the point.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought she was wonderful in this episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Cause they gave her. Because it's not just the first scenes. She does come back and they have a moment.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also thought she was best in. And the show is best in the final moment when Kwabina doesn't come forward and tell her about Sweet Pea after Sweet Pea has told her. And her performance in that scene when she's reacting. Yeah. But doesn't say. Which is restraint that the show sometimes doesn't always show. They would maybe on another day have Harper dress him down and talk all about sex and relationships and business and what they're doing and what he should be doing. And they kind of did that in the sushi restaurant when they were going out on a date. And they've done it in bedrooms together where they've had these very explicit, internal, external conversations. You mentioned Yasmin.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

She, to me, is the most classically successful character on this show because she has her. Her sort of backstory has gone from background to foreground and is now the text, you know, like her when you first meet her, you're just kind of like she's gonna be the rich kid who actually shows that she's got something to her, you know. And what we find out about her and what we find out about her childhood clearly shapes what she has done and is doing both to the powerful men and the less powerful women in her life.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it all comes from her father. And that is like the, like that's how you do writing. It's like you show how somebody is shaped and what they then pass on to other people. But Harper is like a little bit more of like a, a sine wave or something where it's just like, oh, it's like this and now it's like that.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, like I think you're onto something there too. The very best shows and industries and our top three every year that it's on. So we consider industry to be one of the very best shows finds an interesting alchemy from the showrunner's perspective of ch things that they are interested in and things that they clearly know in their bones. And not just the creators, the writers, the creative half of the equation, the behind the scenes creative half of the equation. And it's hard not to come away from the last, not just the season but like the last eight episodes of the series and not think that these guys really have some deep and cutting and maybe even like experiential understanding of Yasmin, of Henry, even of Jim Diker in his final moments. Like that was coming from. That was coming from a soul, that speech. And I worry the Harper character and to a degree Eric as well. And I wonder if it's. Cause they're American. I'm not sure that it is. I don't know if they have had that same level of depth or rigor because they are often reactive or raging. And the level of complexity that Henry Muck's backstory was given, you know, in the grand Barry Lyndon style, reacting to.

[Andy Greenwald]

The fact that all of these people that you're describing have had. I mean even Rishi got to be so many different people on the show. Harper and Eric are largely doing the same thing that they were doing in the first season with each.

[Chris Ryan]

With each other, with each other, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also like business wise. I mean they don't work for an investment bank anymore like a large institution, but they are essentially bloodhounds for bullshit and addicted to the deal.

[Chris Ryan]

And addicted to chaos.

[Andy Greenwald]

And addicted to chaos and are still like kind of trapped in that hotel room, ping ponging off of each Other.

[Chris Ryan]

And Eric, even at that, you know, in this episode has a vision that I think is fairly like. Has a. In terms of like its empathy reaction in most people is fairly high of like even whether you're together with your spouse or not. But like people that you love or have loved and your daughter sleeping soundly and peacefully and his response is non traditional, let's say in that moment.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think also you mentioned Diker. The Diker speech is the thesis statement for this entire season.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a bunch of people who don't feel anything, who know what they're supposed to be feeling at any given moment and don't have that. And so that's driving them insane and they're self medicating with their phones and pornography and drugs and risk.

[Chris Ryan]

So do you think we are headed towards a moment this season where and this episode did some of this work? So I don't want to imply that it's not the case, but where Harper and Eric come to an understanding of recognition which exists in the subtext. But literally saying I don't want a father, I don't want a daughter, but this works.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, haven't they said that before?

[Chris Ryan]

They've said versions of it. And is that enough to fill in the blanks? You know, because I think that one of the things that makes the show perpetually restless and perpetually interesting is Mickey and Conrad are contemptuous of convention and they don't want to be boring and they don't want to be standard and that's fine. And sometimes when the show has veered not just fine, that's admirable. I thought that the Sweet Pea episode and we'll get into that, Miriam Pecci's performance and everything in a moment because I thought it was excellent. The coda of her storyline to me was conventional. That she was absolutely Harper esque and like undeniable. Punching me in the face and I will still destroy your world. But then once the doors closed on my like prefab fancy condo unit, I cry like everyone else.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I still found it to be ambiguous. Like what's she crying about?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what I mean. Is she crying because that's her body releasing all the stress of the last couple of days. Is she crying because she's thinking about how her mom won't ever bring up her onlyfans controversy? Is she crying because she's so happy?

[Chris Ryan]

You know, like the phrase ambiguity in it. I would just. I guess my question is more about. I think I'm more on. I. We don't we don't want that version of Harper, you know, behind the scenes, she cries like everyone else. I don't think that makes sense. But there is a worrying opacity to the character, especially this season, that has removed her from the larger machine. She was always driving the story with her behavior, but now she is completely driving everything and people are falling at her feet to go along with it. That it is starting to. To me, like, there's not a lot of recognition. I've never met anybody like this. Now, obviously, I haven't met a lot of. A lot of the people on the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Show, but we don't really interact with a lot of people whose professional life requires professional death on the other side of a negotiation.

[Chris Ryan]

It's well said. I. I don't like.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the thing that I think draws a lot of the. These characters are all damaged. One of the reasons why I think they're damaged is that they are drawn to something where there has to be a loser for you to win.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that's very well said. I guess what I'm trying to articulate is this is not a, frankly, I think, disqualifying argument that these people aren't likable. Like, fuck that. The challenge of making a show about people who, quote, unquote, aren't likable is that you shade them with degrees of recognizable humanity. So you don't endorse their actions, but on some gut level, you understand their perspective in it. So you do that on a show like this, by the Henry episode. You do that in a show like this with, as you said, everything with Yasmin's father or with the Claire Forlani Ant character. It's just a passing thing that you carry with you. And then when she behaves like a monster to Hailey, you're still carrying that. Everything with Harper is not just transactional, it is increasingly offscreen. So the card from her mother that she shreds and then the phone call that leads her to react in a way that is familiar to people who've been watching Harper. I guess what I'm saying is, in the practice of it on screen, maybe that wasn't enough.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

But it's episode five of an ongoing season. But I just am noting that disparity. But there were so many other worthwhile things in the episode that I don't want to harp on. That one thing that I think we.

[Andy Greenwald]

Walked away from it with into the across stuff. But the way I want to do it is to talk about the thriller aspect of this show that's been really introduced in this season, the idea of this corporate espionage thriller two episodes in a row where there has been a not totally unexplained sense of menace in the background of an episode. So with Diker, it's the guy who's in the flat with Rishi and him. And I've seen speculation online that he was either he was working, that he was not just a random guy at a pub that he, you know, obviously. And I think you and I engaged.

[Chris Ryan]

Speculation on this pod.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, we. We speculated that as well.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think there's been. People were writing to us saying, like, that's actually an actor we recognize. It's not just a day player. So.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then in this episode, Sweet Pea gets assaulted in a bar. A bathroom at a bar. And she gets assaulted after letting the CFO of Tender Tony Day know her exact location. Know her exact location. So you would have to assume.

[Chris Ryan]

He says the beach can get dangerous at night.

[Andy Greenwald]

You have to assume that either he ordered that or someone is listening to his phone.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because he does seem to think that his office is bugged.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Where do you think this is? Where are the breadcrumbs leading back to? Is this Whitney? Is Whitney, like, running, like, a crime syndicate under.

[Chris Ryan]

This is the Thing. The show is in a successful place right now because we don't know. And there's a sense of both paranoia, which is earned and exciting, but also a sense of, like, all of these people fly too close to the sun all of the time. And are they. Do they think they're in a movie? Do they. Are they're behaving like they're in some sort of dangerous thriller. But it's also possible that she was assaulted in a bar unrelated to it. So that's not a bad place, dramatically, for the show to be. With three episodes left, I'm curious where the cards are gonna fall, because the other option that I'm not as big of a fan of is that Whitney Halberstram is just a really bad, evil guy who is clearly running a fraudulent company and is willing to assault or murder people who get in his way. That's less interesting to me because it's less nuanced. The show is better when it lives in the in between space. When the Nathan McKay keys drop when they get to Accra and they're filming, and it's beautiful. And again, this is exciting to see the show take advantage of location shooting, of vibrancy and cultural differences in the actors that they found to play these parts. Was thrilling. And I can't help but intuit a level of excitement on the part of the creative team of the show towards this storyline. Maybe more so than what's going on back in London. Like the keys dropping and then being on this thriller and actually getting to write. Mickey and Conrad getting to write it and Joe Charlton who's credited with this episode getting to write this and the actors getting to play it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, they basically got to do the Insider.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, they. And I don't blame him. Who doesn't want to make a Tony Gilroy, Michael Mann type thing. There was a disparity, I would say, in terms of like what was really what was driving the episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

That felt like a much more of an interesting place. And I guess I'm curious about your perspective on the episode. Do you think it looks beautiful? It sounds beautiful. The actors played it really well. I'm still worried about the. What's there there because the as I said, like Tender is just so clearly fraudulent from Jump that I'm waiting for more nuance in the investigation. If it is, I want it to be more than. This is clearly corrupt. There is no there there. The thing isn't a thing. And Harper being like, why do we have to play by the rules? Like give me a little more.

[Andy Greenwald]

The first 10 minutes of the episode that we just did, we talked about a bunch of companies that have ingratiated themselves and burrowed in to the economy at such a depth that like their failure is not an option. Yes. And I think that if I had to guess, what were you talking about the patriots? What Tender is trying to do is to make themselves intertwined with the British economy or the global economy to a point where, yeah, it's malfeasance has to be overlooked because to.

[Chris Ryan]

You can't take it away, you can't operate.

[Andy Greenwald]

Would affect the labor government, would affect the, you know, the economic sort of health of a nation. I. I think because I can see the thriller happening from both angles.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

I understand, like Whitney needs this aristocrat to sell his bullshit as a bridge to the life that he always thought was way out of touching distance for himself. As far as like the thriller aspects of it goes. I don't know that I need a gunfight or a death at the end of this. And we've already had one.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

To make it count as a thriller. You know, I mean when you think about all the President's Men, when you think about some of the great political conspiracy thrillers of our lifetime, there's no dead Bodies. There's just people getting spooked in parking lots or, you know, thinking that their phones are tapped or, or whatever. It's, it's, it's interesting. I, I, I do wonder how they are going to bring all of the threads together. But yeah, like it's, it's been such a remarkable genre shift within the framework of the show itself that I'm just along for the ride.

[Chris Ryan]

No, the elasticity of the show is thrilling. Like this is, this is a week to week argument for a return to ongoing series. Because one of the arguments against them over the last few years in a much more like creator empowered version of the television industry, which has shrunk a lot, was that, you know, the auteurs got bored. They didn't want to be locked into the same shows or the same production budgets and the same network executives. They wanted to tell different stories and have more opportunities, which is fine. I mean people should be free to. I'm pro. Was it Kurt Flood who was the first free agent? Like, I'm pro. Workers rights. But there is something to be said for watching shows that, where the creators are like, no, we can do this here. We can stretch this in ways that you can't imagine. And if I'm being critical even of this episode, I'm excited by what I'm seeing. And if certain things aren't perfect, why would they be perfect? Two years ago it was an embryonic version of a show. Now we're watching something week to week that not just could be anything, could be almost anything that we love traditionally.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

So the best of industry in my opinion is Miriam Pecci showing up in a background role with a almost joke name, Sweet Peko Lightly. And then everybody seeing something in each other and growing and growing and growing until she is Erin Brockovich ing her way through Africa in this episode. Holding the screen beautifully shot like that shot of her on the beach was the kind of artistic flourish. The, the boys didn't direct this episode. But that felt interesting because that to me felt like a connection of the visual language of the Henry in the, in the Mansion in the Manor House episodes. The visual palette into a completely different world. I thought that was really cool. And the idea of journalism and detective work and financial whatever it is that they do all becoming one thing in this fraudulent global economy is rich stuff. No pun intended. I really liked that. But there's a lot these episodes are dense and it's been interesting to engage with the episodes particularly this season. Cause they've all been very, very dense to Digest. But the density of the Commander and the Gray lady is a fixed perspective.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

This is telling multiple stories in multiple locations, trying to advance them in a traditional narrative way, but then also getting really, really, really hooked in to certain. Certain parts and you start to feel the attention and what's being paid in different portions, different locations.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. It honestly probably bears a rewatch.

[Andy Greenwald]

The episode itself. Yes. And I think honestly also the season as like a statement, all the episodes together will feel different than the week to week experience of it.

[Chris Ryan]

I just want to call out the fact that when it hits the scene, when what's his name, when Tony Day is exploring pathways for me before the potential assault, and it's just so well put together because that is an example of a creative team just knowing the brief. It is beautifully performed, it's beautifully written, it's beautifully shot. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The fact that Diker's editor is still involved and is like. When she's just like Sweet Pea Golightly and he's like, you're what?

[Chris Ryan]

I know. But then like a minute later he's like, Ms. Golightly, let me explain to you. I'm like, wow. Everybody is. Everybody is just ready with the journey.

[Andy Greenwald]

I feel like we need to talk about the fact that Eric leaves his ex wife and his daughter in one bed after, you know, his daughter has been expelled from school for catfishing a colleague or another student. And he leaves them in that room to go to.

[Chris Ryan]

Alluded to this. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

An escort or.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he's. He's begins the episode by telling this hotel worker, so to speak, not to call him. But then she takes his call.

[Commercial Voice 2]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And she has a room and.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

He invokes. There's some language that's very like father, daughter.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, look, I know what you're asking me.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I wasn't asking you. As a girl dad.

[Chris Ryan]

I have said this has been quite a year for girl dads on screen. From sentimental value to one battle after another. It's really been a championship season.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Nobody goes 17 0. That's true is what I'm saying.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's true. Not even the Pats.

[Chris Ryan]

This is certainly not. That was a tough one for me. The Eric storyline is still so entwined with Harper, but Eric has been given more. Not just nuance to his struggles, which are clear, but more screen time for them than we've seen. And so it's hard to separate the two. Erryk's pretty much stuck in that hotel.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which as a character or.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, that's one of the things that this is a sign of a worthwhile show. Right. Because we could ask, is this budgetary? Like, did they have to shoot it all quickly because they were going to Accra? Or are they making a comment on the kind of purgatory that he is stuck in?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, that's the thing that's so interesting is that Eric, when we see him at the beginning of the season when he's like golfing and Trump is off on the green and he seems to have a beautiful girlfriend, he's living, it seems, in the Hamptons or something like. Or wherever he is. And now he has chosen to live essentially in a bathrobe.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And eat BLTs first.

[Chris Ryan]

Get to the bad parts and look.

[Andy Greenwald]

At pornography on his phone and. Or have sex workers visit him.

[Chris Ryan]

And pornography of his co workers. Right. Isn't he's scrolling, sweet pea?

[Andy Greenwald]

He is, yeah. So, yeah. Like, is he just trapped or is it a commentary of like, perhaps at a certain point people prefer that version of excess and yes. Pleasure than the version that's like, you get to golf every day.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, talk to people. It actually ties into what you were saying before of like, how much money is enough? It's a question of what you think you deserve and what you're doing it for. And that golf sequence was an illustration of, in theory, whatever drove Eric from his more humble beginnings in New York City to London was to become a person who can golf like that, have proximity to powerful people like that, have a girlfriend like that, whatever. And he didn't like it. What he liked was feeling like the.

[Andy Greenwald]

World was about to get swallowed up inside of like a black hole. Every day he goes to work.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And beating it, beating it back for one more day.

[Commercial Voice 2]

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[Andy Greenwald]

Let's talk a little bit about a Night of the Second King just before we get outta here.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

And not even a little bit.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm in no rush.

[Andy Greenwald]

What a fucking awesome piece of TV that was.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode was great.

[Andy Greenwald]

I never end these episodes like that was insignificant. You know what I mean? These 33 minute short stories that they tell or chapters of a story that they're telling are so beautiful, so detailed, so nuanced, so well performed, well shot. And this is, I mean, each of the last three episodes has been my favorite episode of the season so far. What did you love about this episode?

[Chris Ryan]

This was my favorite episode of the season so far. Without question. It's called the Seven. I'm gonna start with this. We used to get a lot of flack, maybe some of it deserved. Back when we were really the. We were the face of Game of Thrones commentary for a while.

[Andy Greenwald]

People close their eyes, think of Game of Thrones, they think of us.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. It's a beautiful thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Two little dragons flying over Philadelphia.

[Chris Ryan]

You're welcome. Or flying to LA to film an after show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And we got a lot of flack for not reading the books. Thus any time we would comment on, like, well, you know, clearly this is coming from George R.R. martin, or this is Benioff and Weiss's brilliant scaffolding of his story or whatever. We didn't full, I'll say, fully know what we were talking about.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that also likely blinded me to the Strengths of George R.R. martin as a writer and as a world builder. Because watching it purely as a TV show, you're really just engaged with that narrative experience. Yeah. This is a long and maybe unnecessary prologue to say the simplicity of this show and the fixed perspective allows me to say, to see, this guy's a really good storyteller.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

The A to B to C of Dunk's Long Night. Again, no pun intended from being in prison to suddenly about to fight next to the King to be the Hand of the King.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

He's not the. Is he the Hand or is he Baelor?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it's the Hand.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't know who's gonna be. You and Nal can explain to me the details of it. But being basically at the All Star game, the twists and turns are so grand and so natural and so not over thought or overworked that it's such a pleasure to experience them this way.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Does that make sense that this is like there is just such a beautiful flow to a story that is not inventing any kind of wheel, it's just rolling.

[Andy Greenwald]

There was a version of this. And again, talking about what a show could have been when it's based on hugely successful novellas that millions of people have read. But there is a version of this where it's just like a knight from nowhere that wins a tournament and gets renowned. What we're actually seeing is this guy live the virtues of being a knight, learn and teach the virtues of being a knight to others, and basically bring out the best and worst in other characters over the course of these episodes where I thought I was gonna get into it and it was gonna be basically like a George R.R. martin version of a sports movie where Rocky wins at the end. And now it's like, no, this is like this guy being entered into a whole political and military and interesting world of characters. And you know, like, I just think that this version of the Targaryens are so fucking entertaining and interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

So much more interesting.

[Andy Greenwald]

And the three brothers, like having such or not brothers. The two brothers and. And Aerion is there. Is Maekar's son. But like having such like, interesting relationships to the pomp and circumstance of the realm is like so fascinating. Like Baelor being like. It's all about history.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And respecting traditions and like understanding like all these little new aspects of it. And then Aryan's just like. It's about like dominating and oppressing people.

[Chris Ryan]

It's so much more interesting if you say or if people say about your work that you have created a, you know, an incredibly rich history, fictional history that suggests the possibility of telling a Howard Zinn version of that history.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Or a Brothers Grimm version of that history. And Star wars has struggled with that. Although that's the success of Andor is literally that like, if this really is a series of events that have shaped stories, then we can come into those stories at a different place. We can explore the parts of them that usually get overlooked by the quote unquote history books, AKA the blockbuster films and the fact that this show has been able to do that. Just sort of dip in and tell something. So small feeling but epic within a larger world. It's also kind of fun to think about, like in a. To relate it to our world and be like, made me. I've never wanted to be in Westeros ever in 15 years of covering the show. But you gotta hand it to a pre. Or maybe they'll never get smartphones world where, like you could just be at Ashford, like get drinking beer and all of a sudden the most interesting thing that's ever happen breaks out in front of you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Hand of the King joins like a hedge knights team to fight his own brother.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, that is so crazy that that's happening. And everybody in that crowd is gonna tell everyone about what they saw.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But the show communicates that sense of happenstance and grandeur in a way that feels pleasurable and also just like. Not to be corny, but like one of the talking points of Game of Thrones that was deeply successful. And it's reductive to say this was the show because the show was so big and so sprawling and so expensive and went on for so long. It contained multitudes. It had versions of every kind of story in it. Which is why it's one of the most beloved shows of all time. But, like, this is a nicer show. This is a show that has some room for reason or kindness or goodness within it. And sometimes play the hits, man. Like when. When little Raymond's like, make me a knight so I can fight beside you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, that stuff works for a reason.

[Andy Greenwald]

Again, another really good finbedded episode. I thought him cracking walnuts and being like, I have. I have the bylaws. So we can just get right into that.

[Chris Ryan]

Not the most efficient way of cracking nuts. But also then this is the cleverness and the visual cleverness of the show is he's smashing the nuts and the nuts are going everywhere. And then what's his. That other dude just goes to help clean him up.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's just like, go get me that. Yeah, go get that. Go pick that up.

[Chris Ryan]

Great stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

There was. I like the idea of. What's the line? Cowering behind 6,000 years of Andal foolery. That he's just like, no, this is actually what we're gonna do. Again, this is a. You understand? Or I get. I haven't read it, but I think I Understand the role these stories played and they are kind of fables. But you know, before you print the legend, people had to live the story. So the fact that everyone's rolling their eyes at this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And can't quite believe it.

[Andy Greenwald]

But then coming out of it, it's going to be like. But then Arion challenged him to so.

[Chris Ryan]

Smart about undercutting what we expect from this world. Because the. When the dude of the. The. The bracken stands up and I was like, oh, I guess I'm supposed to know who that is, right? And he just farts and he just rips one. Yeah. Like that's. It's funny in the moment, but it's also, I think, having a bit of good natured fun at. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

There is no halftime speech that.

[Chris Ryan]

But no. But that. There's no homework even to watch the show. Because my first thought was I am gonna have to text Mal and Joe to ask who this guy is. When in fact it's just that, you know, the diet of the time is just not agreeing with him. Which makes sense. Speaking of the diet of the time, you know, we've all had like in college and things, we had stressful all nighters. We had work to do. Like, do you. Do they have coffee in Westeros?

[Andy Greenwald]

Because. Oh my God.

[Chris Ryan]

Because those guys stayed up all night stressed and then they're supposed to battle now. I know. I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know. I mean, I don't. That's a great question. Thank you. Was there any caffeine or. Or stimulant?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, did they have like any like little leaf that they sniff? You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

Just throwing that out there. If they could just call Rishi from the time slot previous and just say, could you drop by? I don't know. Only because it's like, that's a lot to ask of some people who just.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just think a lot of those guys are steaming drunk all day long.

[Chris Ryan]

And they're young, you know, it's different. Like they're younger anyway. But like they. You just don't want to overlook just the little details. That doesn't. So the Daniel Ings character, he's a Baratheon and he's like, I just.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm doing it for the gram. He's. This hasn't happened in like a thousand years.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm definitely participating all time character and talk about like per. Like just. His efficiency rating is off the charts. But I think that even without being someone who reads and looks at scripts, I think audiences at this point understand in their bones when. When scenes exist because of notes after the fact to backfill the impact of something that happens in a later episode. What I mean by that is when he shows up in this episode, it's the culmination of every appearance he's made thus far from his. But it felt a. It feels natural. We're excited to see him. This tracks with the character we've gotten to know. But none of those previous scenes felt extraneous like that they were laying breadcrumb trails for this. They were enjoyable on their own merits. And so much of the TV that we watch these days is things that feel a little misshapen and disjointed because they've been noted.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

In the spirit of helping things along and greasing the wheels of story. But, like, I think that anyone listening to this podcast can notice a scene and be like you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would say that this is. Obviously, you speak from personal experience. I've been noticed as a professional writer, but this has been a consistent kind of fascination of yours over the course of Pluribus and Landman. And maybe now this of like, hey, did this person have too much freedom?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or was this person not allowed to express themselves in, like, the proper way because they were getting noted to death on something? It's kind of a fascinating. We can't really know.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I mean? It speaks to the fact that in the contemporary television moment, you can be incredibly successful as a writer, as a producer, and as a showrunner with very different skill sets. And I don't say this to diminish anyone or lift anyone up too far outside of their station. But like. Like what Ira Parker's doing within the guardrails of this book that I haven't read, but am praising, and the story and the actors that he was given and HBO's production expertise. And how we can do this at scale is what he's doing within all of that is amazing.

[Andy Greenwald]

It harkens back to Weiss and Benioff in the early seasons, and it might.

[Chris Ryan]

Be the best version of it on TV right now. Whereas I don't think. I think we'd be interested to see the Vince Gilligan or Matt Weiner version of a George R.R. martin adaptation, but let those guys cook.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Now, five years from now, when Ira Parker has his overall at Apple and is making his own show, and we're like, goddamn, this might be the best thing on tv. Fantastic.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or he's making the Romanoffs. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Or he's making the Romanoffs. Or he's continuing to prove that he is uniquely skilled. Not uniquely, remarkably skilled at adapting something for a larger audience. Like, that's no small thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I think that there's a narrative that the reason why Martin adaptations don't work is when the showrunners are like, I'm deviating from Martin. Whether it's like I am adding, I'm embellishing or I'm speeding up or doing whatever. And at least for now, I know that Ira Parker has added some things and changed some things. Not changed markedly, but like embellished and, and, and flourishes in this. But so far, I think he is, like, kind of doing a very able adaptation because he is like, I know why people like this. It's not cause I'm me. And it's not because this needed some sort of historical revision. It's like, because they really want to see the story that they've read.

[Chris Ryan]

Adapting things successfully is incredibly hard. And I think it requires a lot of different. It requires you to be successful in a lot of different areas. One of the areas is, and I listened to you guys talk about it, to get more insight into it, is how you. You're changing mediums. So you have to change them. You have to change the frame, you have to change the scope, you have to tweak things and bring things more into line. And hopefully you have some flexibility of. Well, that's really popping off on the screen. So that guy's gonna get a little more time. You have to do that kind of changing. But you also, at the core, you have to be able to communicate why you. The adapter loves this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

There has to be some beating heart of enthusiasm for something that you love. Now you can do a non traditional adaptation, I think, hopefully, and still communicate that love. And you're taking that love and you're building a different skeleton around it. But communicating that is part of the job. Disdain does travel.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Or frustration. Or not to mind read. In the case of the last season of Game of Thrones, just like, let's.

[Andy Greenwald]

Get this over with.

[Chris Ryan]

What are we supposed to do? We have to do the best version of it that we can.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or maybe they just felt like they were now stewards of a giant VFX project. You know, at the end, I mean, maybe the place where they felt like this story was gonna end really didn't have as much to do with what they were originally interested in.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it becomes the kind of project that we've talked about with the rise of, like, Marvel and comic book storytelling, which is. Are you making the best story you ever could make or are you making the best version of what this has to be? Due to the expectation audience IP financial network requirements being placed upon me? Right. And I think that, you know, we go back and I don't remember everything we said about that final season of Game of Thrones, but I think there was a lot of, like, full of praise. Were we?

[Andy Greenwald]

Sometimes I think you and I were probably a little bit of a lighter touch on it than.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Because it didn't. Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

It didn't betray us.

[Chris Ryan]

There were episodes like what Arya does and how the I'm not gonna spoil Game of Thrones, but like how the Night King storyline ends. I think we were like, that was it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But that episode was beautifully executed and exciting.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it was cool.

[Chris Ryan]

It was cool. But that was different than what it was at the beginning. And it's just. What do you think? You're out in these Internet streets. Are people liking this show?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Yes. I don't know. I don't think it's like a runaway blockbuster. We need to get a Lionel Baratheon spinoff going kind of show. But I think it's being very well received. I think there are some people who are like, this is fucking boring. I think they'll probably change their mind as they hit the second half of this season. But yeah, it's a smaller story. I think they ably communicated that and I think that the half hour episode runtimes are excellent in terms of a selling point for something that's new and different.

[Chris Ryan]

Treason by puppetry.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right. We can wrap it up there. Thanks to Kya, thanks to Kai, thanks to Andy. We'll be back on Thursday with some Pit and some other chit chat about popular culture. It's been great talking to you.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks to Clint Kubiak. Good luck in Vegas.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right, brother.

[Chris Ryan]

And to the A's.

[Andy Greenwald]

Good luck in Vegas. To them.

[Chris Ryan]

Well done.