‘Survivor’ Season 50 Finale, ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 5, and All-Time Episodic Runs With Joanna Robinson

Summary

THE WATCH | The Ringer
Episode: ‘Survivor’ Season 50 Finale, ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 5, and All-Time Episodic Runs With Joanna Robinson
Date: May 22, 2026
Host: Chris Ryan
Guest: Joanna Robinson
[Andy Greenwald out this week]

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Episode Overview

Chris Ryan welcomes Joanna Robinson to break down and deeply discuss:

• The dramatic Survivor Season 50 finale, including its gameplay, production blunders, and narrative editing.
• Early impressions of Netflix's new genre series The Burrows.
• A glowing examination of Widow’s Bay Episode 5 and ongoing “elite runs” of television episodes, including a raucous conversation cataloging the best multi-episode runs in TV history.
• The episode is rich with anecdotes, behind-the-scenes insight, and playful banter about the current TV landscape.

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Section 1: Survivor Season 50 Finale

Discussion Timestamps:

• Survivor begins: [03:45]
• Finale format issues: [08:05]
• “La La Land-Moonlight” moment: [09:14]
• Winner talk / Aubrey discussion: [11:15]

Key Points

• Viewing Habits:

  • Chris admits to skipping physical challenges for a “social game” watch style:

    "We started really watching it in earnest in my household during the pandemic... may have gotten a little bit quick with the trigger finger when it comes to skipping the physical challenges." – Chris [04:25]

  • Joanna watches Survivor as “appointment television,” referencing a sense of nostalgia and urgency to watch live to avoid spoilers.

• Finale Party Vibe:

  • Joanna attended a Survivor finale party:

    "So once Tiff was out, which was a huge bummer for the room, everyone except for one person was team Aubrey... I have not watched Survivor in that way. It felt like I was in a bar... everyone's blood was up." – Joanna [07:00]

• Production Snafu (the “Fire Making” Disaster):

  • Jeff Probst spoiled the outcome by sending Rizzo to the jury before showing the fire-making challenge.
  • Massive confusion in the live audience:

    "Every single pa, every single producer, every single person just like let this happen because they play the episode in the room on the big screen... it was clear they had not shown fire making yet." – Joanna [10:17]

  • Chris likens it to an awkward "La La Land–Moonlight moment" for reality TV [09:14].

• Winner Analysis:

  • Aubrey wins. Both Chris and Joanna were rooting for her.
  • Joanna breaks down how Aubrey’s win was “edited” for the audience, noting early clues that pointed toward her win and how editing subverted or telegraphed outcomes.
  • Keen insight into “Survivor edit reading”:

    "We picked Aubrey only because in the very first episode, there was that extremely weird Genevieve and Aubrey conversation that just stuck out as so bizarre." – Joanna [14:17]

• Editing & Character Narration:

  • Shows like Survivor are built around engaging narrators—a key trait the casting looks for.
  • Tyson’s advice for Survivor hopefuls:

    “If you're auditioning for Survivor, the number one thing you need to be able to do is exactly what you're saying is tell a story... that narration is something they need from everyone in the group.” – Joanna [16:59]

• Cultural Impact:

  • Both reflect on how Survivor has become a fixture in their rhythm of TV-watching, similar to following major sports.

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Section 2: Netflix’s The Burrows

Discussion Timestamps:

• Burrows introduction: [20:51]
• Cast discussion: [23:47]
• Themes and structure: [24:33]

Key Points

• Premise & Creative Team:

  • Set in a Villages-style retirement community threatened by “otherworldly” forces.
  • Created by Jeffrey Atlas & Will Matthews, EP’d by the Duffer Brothers, who bring their signature genre-mixing.

• Cultural and Aesthetic Vibes:

  • “Stranger Things meets Cocoon” (Joanna [24:33]).
  • Both praise the older, starry cast—Alfred Molina, Alfre Woodard, Geena Davis, Bill Pullman—and muse on generational TV feels.
  • The setting (New Mexico) and the combination of Amblin-style adventure, quirky humor, and heartfelt drama stand out.
  • The “binge drop” format creates a different anticipation compared to weekly episodic TV:

    “This is the perfect kind of fun theory show... but it's a binge drop. And so by the time some listeners are listening to this, they've already watched the full season... We're still like, what's in the walls and where is the key and what's happening?” – Joanna [25:40]

• Mystery Structure & Themes:

  • Both express appreciation for the show’s focus on “unbelieved” and overlooked populations—elderly as main characters, a parallel to kids/teens in genre stories.
  • Compliment the domestic drama aspect, though Chris notes repetition in the domestic scenes.

• Cultural Commentary:

  • The show’s blend of genre, heart, and older protagonists prompts a “rich vein” of possibilities for how stories about the elderly can matter:

    "A population that no one's going to believe or is easily dismissed..." – Joanna [27:48]

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Section 3: Widow’s Bay Episodes 4 and 5 — “Elite Television”

Discussion Timestamps:

• Widow’s Bay focus begins: [31:00]
• Chatter about rising word-of-mouth: [31:26]
• Deep dive into storytelling, comedy, and staging: [32:05–35:12]

Key Points

• Critical Praise:

  • Both declare Episode 4 “the best episode of television I’ve seen this year.” – Joanna [31:12], echoed by Andy via Chris [31:16].
  • The show is gaining “heat in the streets” (Chris [31:26]) as more viewers and tastemakers pile on acclaim.

• Show’s Strengths:

  • Exceptional comic timing, three-dimensional sense of place (“the town feels three-dimensional already” – Chris [32:05]), and “miracle” ensemble performances.
  • Admiration for throwaway jokes and intricate set/prop work; cited via Katie Dippold’s “Scriptnotes” interview:

    “Do you know how hard it is to shoot that much at night? Do you know how hard it is to... make the teeth game and it's gonna be a one second throwaway joke...” – Chris [34:02]

• Comedic Brilliance:

  • Shoutouts to Chris Fleming’s performance, especially the “door mirror” gag [35:12], and Dale Dickey’s enigmatic town character.
  • Highlights show’s balance of "obvious joke" and "throwaway joke"—rewarding acute viewers.

• World-Building & Lore:

  • Both note subtle but confident layering of the town’s secrets—never letting exposition crowd out character comedy.
  • References to classic “horror trope of the week” structure while maintaining deep ensemble investment:

    “I would want to hang out with these characters for seasons and seasons of television.” – Joanna [39:37]

• Comparisons & Influences:

  • Comparisons to X-Files, Buffy, Parks and Rec.
  • Praises for how the show weaves character backstories, relationships, and genre mystery together fluently.

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Section 4: All-Time TV Runs — “The Best Stretches of Episodic Television”

Discussion Timestamps:

• Launch of the episodic run “exercise”: [41:24]
• Buffy the Vampire Slayer deep dive: [42:26]
• Succession, Doctor Who, Better Call Saul, Fargo, Watchmen, Andor, Lost, Thrones: [46:24–62:16]

Key Points & Selected Notable Runs Mentioned

Buffy Season 2: Surprise → Innocence → Phases → Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered → Passion

“That run to me... in terms of what you can do with continuity, with character development, and with breaking all the rules, that is just an incredible [run].” – Joanna [44:10]

Succession Season 2: Valter → Hunting (Bore on the Floor) → Safe Room

“It is the episode that I think is peak Jeremy Strong.” – Chris [46:52]

• Includes famous “it’s not going to be me” Kendall/Roman scene.
• Turnhaven (Ep. 5) gets love for ensemble work, but small critique for not following up on big revelations.

Doctor Who (David Tennant Era): Silence in the Library → Forest of the Dead → Midnight → Turn Left → Stolen Earth → Journey’s End

“They brought back all the characters from all the seasons for this incredible two-parter... I think Tennant is the best Doctor we’ve had. And they just gave him banger after banger.” – Joanna [50:08]

Better Call Saul: Closing run of the final season (end of Howard, Gus v. Lalo, Kim/Jimmy breakdown)

“The end of Howard is so tragic... she's just self-aware enough to be like ‘my soul died here, so we can't be together anymore.’” – Chris [52:03]

• Joanna highlights prior run: Wexler v Goodman → JMM → Bagman → Bad Choice Road → Something Unforgivable.

Andor (S1): Prison arc (Narkina 5: 8–10); Alternately “Gorman Arc” in S2

“The Narkina arc is where we realize what we had in Andor. Right? And you get the Luthen speech and [Andy] Serkis' speech in the same episode.” – Joanna [53:13]

Fargo S2: Loplop → The Castle → episode with Flying Saucer at the Motel

“That’s when you get the reassurance. …When you’re like, ‘Oh, they know they’re cooking. They know what they’re doing.’ That feeling is so satisfying.” – Joanna [57:31]

True Detective S1: Locked Room → Who Goes There (tracking shot) → Secret Fate of All Life

Watchmen: This Extraordinary Being → An Almost Religious Awe → A God Walks Into Abar

Lost: Greatest Hits → Through the Looking Glass Part 1 & 2 (“We have to go back.”)

“I don’t think you beat it. It’s so good.” – Joanna [61:35]

Game of Thrones: End of Season 4 (The Run-up to “The Children”)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “I think [Widow's Bay] is, it is… so, it’s a miracle of a show is how it feels.” – Joanna [32:05]
• “The miracle of episodic television is that I can name you isolated, standout episodes…but in terms of like [a run]...I don’t think you beat it. It’s so good.” – Joanna (on Lost) [61:35]
• “Tyson’s advice…if you’re auditioning for Survivor, the number one thing you need to be able to do…is tell a story.” – Joanna [16:59]
• “When you watch Fargo season two…you’re like, ‘Oh, Fargo season two rips!’” – Joanna [56:52]
• “Andy and I taking Memorial Day off. I’m sorry to Sydney Sweeney. I hope that whatever happens to you on Sunday night will hold until Thursday.” – Chris [63:32]

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Highlighted Timestamps for Key Segments

• Survivor Finale Deep Dive: [03:45] – [18:51]
• The Burrows Netflix Series: [20:51] – [30:56]
• Widow’s Bay Episode 4/5 Analysis: [31:00] – [41:24]
• TV’s Greatest Episode Runs: [41:24] – [63:09]

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a showcase for high-level television criticism and joyful fandom. Chris and Joanna blend in-depth critique with delight in TV’s narrative power, unpacking not only the intricacies of new shows (SurvivorS50, Widow’s Bay, The Burrows) but also situating them amid the great moments of television history with enthusiasm, deep knowledge, and friendly comic rapport.

For listeners old and new, this is both a primer on what’s great right now and a roadmap to TV’s finest stretches—delivered with the wit and excitement that defines The Watch.

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

This episode of the Watch is presented to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime Same Day Delivery has your back getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same Day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms Apply pain support staff to clear the room, Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the Peace Center. Yes, it's my shaman, Joanna Robinson.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hell yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Joe, thank you so much for doing this. You're coming right off of a prestige TV recording.

[Joanna Robinson]

Please look out for my lizard. She's on a walkabout.

[Chris Ryan]

I just like what you've done with the place here. We're over here in the Sycamore Studios. Joe's joining me today. Andy will be back next week. We're not gonna do a recording on Monday. I'm giving Andy Memorial Day off from Euphoria.

[Joanna Robinson]

What a kind boss you are.

[Chris Ryan]

I want to clip that for him. But we will be back. I maybe, you know, if something really super significant happens on Euphoria, maybe Andy and I will record on Tuesday.

[Joanna Robinson]

Define significant. Rudes.

[Chris Ryan]

Multiple plot lines converge.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, Jacob Elordi has something to do.

[Chris Ryan]

Jules and Jacob Elordi show up like a similar scene. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, Jules has lines. That makes sense.

[Chris Ryan]

Exactly. But today we're going to talk a little bit of Survivor, a little bit of the Burrows, which is a new show on Netflix that I checked out two episodes of. I Good. I want to talk to you obviously, about Widows Bay. Andy and I will hit it harder next week, but I had a fun idea for us where I think episodes four and five are Elite Television. Two of the best episodes I've seen this year and it got me going down a little bit of a best episodes run of TV series. And let me tell you, that was a fun little list to look at. I don't often think of things in terms of like the runs that they're on. That's more of like a Bill mind thing. But I've. I really enjoyed thinking about these and there were some really obvious, like ones that jumped out. And we're going to talk a little bit of Survivor, in fact. Just good for the sake of newsiness. And you can hit us [e-mail] and you can follow us at thewatchpod on Instagram ringerdash tv, where you can also watch PrestigeTV on YouTube and listen to us on Spotify or wherever you like. Honestly, Transistor radio, maybe. Andy and I are still broadcasting from a far away time. How are you? Are you good?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm great. How are you?

[Chris Ryan]

I just had to do my spiel. That's great. This is my first fifth podcast of the week, so I'm feeling in the groove. I know that you're probably there too, but we've both found time to watch a little bit of Survivor, so spoilers for anybody who hasn't watched the finale yet. I guess I had to stay up quite late to watch it because it did not go to Paramount plus until the wee hours. You guys just did a house of our crossover with Tyson and Riley earlier in the week, so I know that you're. You're locked in. What did you think of the finale? Were you a fan of how things were executed?

[Joanna Robinson]

How do you usually watch Survivor? That's a question I have for you.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I usually turn it on at 10pm on Paramount Plus. And then I will be completely candid with you and our listeners and say that after about 12 seasons that, like, we started really watching it in earnest in my household during the pandemic. Yeah, after about like 12 or 13 or 14 seasons, we may have gotten a little bit quick with the trigger finger when it comes to skipping the physical challenges.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So we get it down to about like 40 minutes an episode by just being like we're, we're social players. I'm interested in what happens before and after the challenges.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do I need to unlock like maybe I don't have the elite tier of Paramount Plus. Cause I thought it was like it only hit. I thought I had to watch it on like Paramount lie tv but maybe it's just I needed to wait for east coast after midnight for it to pop.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I think it goes up at like 10, 10, 15 on Paramount Plus. But many nights I have been sitting there like refreshing, like it's getting too late to start. It's getting too late to start.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. I thought when they said it will post the next day, they meant like the next day. So I've been, I've been watching it as appointment television on Paramount plus like starting it up right at 8 o'. Clock. I have to be home and I've been like watching commercials.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. Do you have cable?

[Joanna Robinson]

No, I'm like, I. No.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I don't. I have just this very stressful.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, wow. That I still have cable. I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, like I watch. I don't know. What. Yeah. Because I don't watch a lot of network stuff and if I do I'll just like watch it next day on Hulu.

[Chris Ryan]

That's how I watch Marshalls.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, this is the only thing is like you don't want to get spoiled for Survivor and stuff like that. So I've been watching it like old school, like before VCR television. I've just been. Because you can't record off Paramount Plus. So I was just like, I have to be home at 8 o'.

[Sponsor Voiceover 1]

Clock.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you grow up in a the channel stays on one channel all night Family Kind of.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I mean they used to block the program in a way.

[Chris Ryan]

National news.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like did you guys a one one

[Joanna Robinson]

news like Jeopardy into. Yeah, absolutely. But we. But for this I went to a finale party at someone's house. Lovely. And it was like, I don't know, a room full of people and I knew two people. But the point you were making about skipping through physical challenges. Survivor. I don't think you need to watch every single second with all of your attention. I agree. And so to watch it with a rowdy room of people where they were talking over. Usually talking over television bothers me. In this case it did not. Because I don't need every single second. Especially in the Jeff patter in the live finale interview stuff. And you know, spoilers for what's happening. Right. We were all very invested, specifically in certain people not winning.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So once Tiff was out, which was a huge bummer for the room, everyone except for one person was team Aubrey. So, like we were yelling and very excited. And I have not watched Survivor in that way. It felt like I was in a bar or something like that where it's just sort of like everyone's blood was up and they were really excited.

[Chris Ryan]

No, because a couple. I feel like there's been. I'd have to like, look at the actual champions over the last couple of years, but it does feel like there have been a lot of. Even if going into the finale you thought there was more of a debate, like people running the table, like people winning, like, you know, 8, 10, whatever it is, 10 nothing in the final jury. And this one felt like a little bit more like I didn't think Aubrey could lose to Jonathan and Joe, but I also wasn't certain Aubrey was going to win, if that makes sense. I feel the way about Survivor finales that I feel about the super bowl, which is if my team is not playing, I treat it as like sort of a grand piece of entertainment, but not as something I'm as invested in. And I get a little melancholy during Survivor finales. Cause I really like having like a regular Wednesday appointment of television. There's two things to talk about. There's the actual gameplay and who won.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then there is the snafu that occurred that basically happened when Survivor finales often cut back and forth between the game that has been taped in Fiji or on Fiji. And then 10 months ago, whatever it was. And then the live LA studio finale show that Jeff is hosting. So was that like a Paramount or something? I mean, we're.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it was the Paramount.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And this year, this season, season 50, which has been this sort of coronation for the show. Jeff screwed up. It seems like Jeff screwed up. I don't know whether.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, he definitely screwed up.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I don't know if somebody was in his ear being like, and now tell him, send Rizzo to the jury or whatever, but we were about to get our fire making competition. I hate fire making. I think it's a really unfair way of deciding who goes to Final three, but it's tradition. It was going to be Rizzo versus Jonathan. I think everybody imagined Jonathan was going to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Probably when Jonathan could like start a fire every single day.

[Chris Ryan]

His friggin Homelander.

[Joanna Robinson]

Someone I was watching with was like, Jonathan should start his fire. At the fire making. Just like looking at Rizzo and just like, because he doesn't need to concentrate at all. He can do it.

[Chris Ryan]

But Jeff does a little stand up interview with Rizzo and then in the middle of it, before the fire making takes place, he's doing a, like, we're about to see fire making. And Rizzo, why don't you join the jury? Right. And it, it was described to me as a. In a text before I saw it was make sure you watch tonight. There's a La La Land moonlight moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Now I thought what that meant was like, Jeff got the count wrong and the final vote, which obviously would be very difficult. But what did you. What was kind of going through your mind when you saw this happen? Were you like, is this a technical problem?

[Joanna Robinson]

So the people I was watching with, so that we could fast forward through commercials and the person who was on the fast forward, everyone in the room started accusing him of like missing the fire, you know, because it was like clear. As soon as Rizzo comes out and there's an empty stool with the rest of the jury, you're like, okay, but like, what did we miss? I was talking to Tyson and Ashley. Cause they were here recording Pot has spoken. And I was like, what was it like in the room? You know, and basically. Cause so many people had to do their job incorrectly for that to have happened.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Every single pa, every single producer, every single person just like let this happen because they play the episode in the room on the big screen. So like they're, they're watching it. It was clear that they had not shown fire making yet. Tyson said he was sort of zoning out because they had already watched the finale. So like, he, he was not even. He was like, he's like, wait, didn't they not show fire making yet? He said Ashley and Tyson said that Dee, who we couldn't see on the camera, she was like the far left of the jury, that she was like gesturing to Jeff to be like, cut it. That Rizzo kind of tried to say, like, did I? Whatever. But yeah, they. I guess they cued Jeff too early. But I, But I still don't understand how it was allowed to go. Like, no one stopped him.

[Chris Ryan]

It's also funny that it's not like a Saturday Night Live, like, we'll catch it for the west coast thing. I guess once the cat's out of the bag. The cat's out of the bag.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, he did so many bits about it throughout the rest of the evening.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I guess that would have Killed it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

But, yeah, as far as the winner, so spoilers again. Obviously, we're into this, but Aubrey wins.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wait, so who did you want to win? Aubrey. Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, Entirely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I was like, was this a super point? I was really hoping Siri would win because I wanted to see, to me, her gameplay is the other side of being a physical.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Beast and camp beast.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And she's just, like, one of the reasons why I skipped challenges. I'm like, I don't actually think people. Cerise never really held accountable for not being good at challenges. You know what I mean?

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, Rizzo either.

[Chris Ryan]

Rizzo lost everything. If there's really no, like, hey, you're holding us back now, every once in a while in the beginning of seasons, you'll be like, hey, we need to win some challenges. We need to win some food.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, you're out.

[Chris Ryan]

But as it goes on, I feel like the physical challenges are really just for the immunity necklace. So it's like, I'll find out who won, but it doesn't matter how people performed. So I was cheering for her. I think she obviously ceilinged out because at a certain point you have to sort of say, like, if we go to the final three of Mr. Rishi's gonna win.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think she got out on, like, not an unfair twist, but the two twists of the game where they randomly divided the tribe into, you know, mini tribes. That's what, like, screwed Genevieve out of the game earlier this season when they did it. And that's what screwed Ceria out of the game, because if she had had access to everyone to weave her spell, of course, which she used to protect Ozzie, her ride or die all season. Yes, Ozzy would not have been voted out. And if Ozzy wasn't voted out, then Suri is less vulnerable, you know, and, like, the Rizzo, like, Rizzo didn't want to go to the final three with siree, but Ozzy genuinely did. And so I kind of. And, you know, she had tiff. So I feel like if Ozzy hadn't been so dumb and if they hadn't divided the the tribes the way they did, like, there was a path for her to the end. It was a narrow path.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder if she's, like, ever, like, practice fire making, like, if you're cereal and you're like, that good at social, do you think you're even, like, okay, so, like. Cause she's always go be like, who's been running this game? Oh, like, me. So I was cheering for her. I was happy For Aubrey.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And, you know, in retrospect, I think it's useful to ask you about this. Like, we can watch television sometimes and lose ourselves in it, but then a lot of times we'll watch a show and we'll kind of be like, I kind of see the seams or the stitching and where we're going with this. It's actually kind of a useful way of looking at the Burrows. And, you know, now that, you know, Aubrey won, it's been obvious, I guess, for like, six episodes that she was going to win because they really started giving her.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, she kept saying, now is when my game begins. She said that, like, four or five episodes in a row. I will say this. And. And I. We do have proof of this. Mallory and I entered a Survivor pool this season. The same pool I entered it last season. I did win last season. We did not. We did not win this season. We got second place, though. But part of, like, the pool is you have to pick your, you know, your final champion.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

We picked Aubrey only because in the very first episode, there was that extremely weird Genevieve and Aubrey conversation that just stuck out as so bizarre.

[Chris Ryan]

It was like, it can only be one of us.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And it was just sort of like, we thought it had to be one of them. We were like, it's either Genevieve or Aubrey. Otherwise, why is this scene in the world?

[Chris Ryan]

Socially minded, Like C Suite denizens.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I was just sort of like, play from the middle. There's just, like, no reason this scene is here because it was just so awkwardly shot and edited that unless they were trying to seed something from the very beginning for one of them, and we weren't sure which. We picked Aubrey. We also picked Genevieve to go far. She didn't. But, like, so that's why we didn't win. But that was my only editing clue early on. But otherwise, Aubrey wasn't getting, like, a great edit early on. So I don't know. In terms of, like, for a while we were like, oh, is it Christian? Because they're focusing so much on Christian.

[Chris Ryan]

He's just such a good narrator.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think he gets Evans, you know, because he's so entertaining, et cetera, et cetera. I was worried it was Jonathan, but, yeah, it's complicated in terms of. I really loved analyzing a reality show edit to try to, like, see what stories they're trying to create. It was especially challenging, I think, with Survivor 50, because they were really trying to craft these. Rizzo, remember when you lost a fire making and you're about to, you know, like, they're like, what can we craft where we can use archival footage to really, like, stitch together the history of Survivor and make this person's downfall feel like connected to their previous games? So they were working overtime to craft certain sub narratives inside of the winner narrative. Do you know? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

They maybe spent to my taste, a little too much time indulging, like, some character work that wound up not really paying off. Like, the coach thing kind of wore out. Its welcome for me pretty quickly. I feel like, yeah, like, Christian's an amazing player who I just think is a great play by play guy for Survivor, but, like, ultimately got so much camera time, but then it's like, how early do you want to start tipping your hat towards Aubrey? It's almost better that they did it this way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, and I think it's interesting because one of the complaints, especially after the Zach Brown episode is when people were sort of ranking confessionals. They're like, zach Brown has more airtime than Tiff.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then. But Tiff was someone who went a long way in the game, so they saved a lot of the Tiff stuff for later.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And that's a strategic edit, but it also, you know, pissed a lot of people off because they're like, why aren't you showing these various players at all? And get Zach Brown the fuck out of here? Which I agree.

[Chris Ryan]

Get Mr. Beast gone.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Tyson's. Over the course of the season and advice that Tyson has given again and again on his podcast is if you're auditioning for Survivor, the number one thing you need to be able to do is exactly what you're saying is tell a story. So if you can convince them that when you sit down for a confessional, you'll have a really fun and dynamic way of describing what has happened or what you're thinking. That's the number one thing they're looking for. Yeah, they're looking for, like, people who look nice, like in a swimsuit. Yeah. They're looking for people who are good at challenges. Yeah. They're looking for, you know, quirky characters, but that narration is something they need from everyone in the group.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Especially I think also part of the problem was that they had such good orators on this season, was that Tribals wound up being dominated by, like, the same four people, like, in a good way for television, but probably at Tiff's expense. Maybe a little bit.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So, yeah, I mean, I thought it was a really entertaining season. Like I said, like, there's always, like, A little bit of a. Like, the finale is not actually Survivor, you know, to me. Yeah, I guess it's been a while since we've had just like a gobsmacking. Amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I will say the way they edited Aubrey going into her final immunity challenge where she's just sort of like, these guys don't want me to go to the final three, so I need to win this immunity. And then as soon as the room I was watching and saw what the challenge was, people were up off their

[Chris Ryan]

feet because they were like, she could win this.

[Joanna Robinson]

She could win it. Yeah, yeah. That's not something that Jonathan's gonna dominate at. So it was just sort of like. And did production do that? Cause they wanted Aubrey to go far. Who knows? But, like, that was, to me was the most exciting. Like, Tiff losing the biggest. Like, oh, man, now we're stuck with these chuckle bucks. And then. And then Aubrey getting a challenge she could actually win was.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't believe Joe is like, I never lied until I lied once.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know.

[Chris Ryan]

Then he made his whole story.

[Joanna Robinson]

Then he made his whole thing. Like, I lied when I needed to. And I was like, where did the honor integrity thing go?

[Chris Ryan]

Joe, you were sitting on a boat the entire season being like, don't lie to me.

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[Chris Ryan]

All right, let's talk a little bit about the Burroughs because this is one that's been kind of looming and I was waiting for like maybe a huge drumbeat of press and trailers and hype for it. And you know, I have this long running confusion with how Netflix chooses to like announce itself. And I think they don't need to do that really because they have the platform. So shows wind up just becoming wildly successful with or without like a traditional promo. This is from Jeffrey Atlas and Will Matthews who did a very well regarded Dark Crystal.

[Joanna Robinson]

I liked it.

[Chris Ryan]

Reboot. Like spitting off. How would you describe it? Imagination called. What was it called? Oh, the Age of Resistance. And they created this series. It's executive produced by the Duffer Brothers who this is their second series that they've EP'd for Netflix this year. The other one being Something Very Bad is About to Happen. About to or going to I can't about to happen. Which I loved. And so they've shown themselves able to guide shows. I think they definitely have like, I

[Joanna Robinson]

think more successfully in some of these like you know, the Weiss and Bedioff deal or whatever. Like there is just a real Duffer Brothers ethos that seems clear inside of these shows. It feels.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I was almost surprise watching these first two episodes. So just as like a brief the Log Line is in a seemingly picturesque retirement community. A group of unlikely heroes must band together to stop an otherworldly threat from stealing the one thing they don't have. Time. This is basically set at a Villages esque retirement community, but with maybe few MAGA inclined seniors who are trading STDs. I don't know if anybody has ever seen the Villages documentary, but it's quite a thing. The show opens with a very like, amblend out set piece with Dee Wallace, who people will know from E.T. yeah, and Ed Begley Jr. And what seems to be an alien and lots of hints and lots of Easter eggs and stuff. And then turns into a really well observed, occasionally amusing, really well acted, given the cast show that is basically like fine for 45 minutes and then has in each episode like a pretty.

[Joanna Robinson]

What the fuck?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, last five minutes. And so the duffers know what they're doing. Alfred Molina plays the main character, Sam Cooper, who's a widower who's just moved to the boroughs. Alfre Friggin Woodard plays an ex investigative journalist who is living there with her husband Art, who is played by Clark Peters from the Wire, who plays like a stoner who's kind of just doing yoga and playing golf, but also some other stuff. Denis o' Hare plays a terminally ill resident of the facility. And then Geena Davis is somehow qualifying for senior citizen now.

[Joanna Robinson]

So they keep iterating like we're in our 60s, we're spry young, we're just

[Chris Ryan]

getting ahead of the curve here. What did you do?

[Joanna Robinson]

Bill Pullman also inside of this? Yeah, to your point, the ca. Like, you know, when I watched the trailer, I was like, wow, this incredible cast that they've assembled. And also like, do I feel my age that, you know these actors, especially when you see like Bill Pullman and Geena Davis and you're just thinking about A League of Their Own or something like that. These actors who we grew up with were like, oh, they're populating the retirement community. Is this what people felt like when they watched cocoon in the 80s or whatever? This is very Stranger Things meets Cocoon Energy. The Amblin swing that they're making, which they obviously made with Stranger Things stuff

[Chris Ryan]

rattling on the shelves.

[Joanna Robinson]

All of that stuff is here, the cul de sac, et cetera. But it's so well acted. Yeah. And I was just sort of like. I was thinking, I was like, if this show were a bunch of 60 somethings that I've not seen in other things, I'd be far less interested.

[Chris Ryan]

A bunch of 60 something influencers who

[Joanna Robinson]

just popped in, popped into TV. Oh my God, the tiktokers are gonna get old, man. That's that stuff. But. But Alfred Molina's so good. Bill Pullman's so good. Ed Begley Junior's so good. Geena Davis, Alfre Witter, Clark Peters, fantastic. And so it's just, you know, it's Just really well done and a script that I'm not sure is. And the other question I have, we've only watched the first two episodes, but this is the perfect kind of fun theory show. There's just a lot of mysteries. It's very like, don't worry, darling, what's happening here sort of thing. But it's a binge drop. And so by the time that some of your listeners are listening to this, they've already watched the full season and they know what happens in the show. We still are like, like, what's in the walls and where is the key and what's happening? You know, that's like.

[Chris Ryan]

I was kind of thinking about that because we're about to talk about these two episodes of Widow's Bay that have been coming out once a. It's a weekly episodic drop and the way in which one episode can build on another. And now, like, I think anticipation for the sixth episode of Widow's Bay will be at like this fever pitch after these last two. And you just don't get that with this. And in some ways, I feel like they almost write these shows knowing that I'm. I'm not sure some of these things get sold to Netflix and may get recut lately. But like, this was probably, I think if it comes from the Duffers, like, brought through the Duffers deal that they had with Netflix for the pre existing ones.

[Joanna Robinson]

Guys who worked for Netflix.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. It really does feel like if you cut together all of the domestic Alfred Molina scenes of him having, like, reveries of his late wife, played by Jane Casamarec.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is that Kazmarick? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Who people know Malcolm.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Or Alfre Woodard sitting at her breakfast nook, kind of thinking about stuff like that's this domestic drama that I don't know if you would be able to distinguish necessarily episode one from episode three, because there's a lot of repeated kind of gestures and scenes. Yeah. But then all the stuff that's like, lore and the weirdness of this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stealing the rose quartz.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And all of Geena Davis's stuff from her arts and crafts studio is getting stolen. And there is, like you said, don't worry, darling, like a little bit of a Stepford Wives element to what's going on with the guy who runs this place.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

All the stuff with Seraphim, which know is a like, basically alien presence. Angels, which is what they call their Alexa in this place. And all of the condos are kind of hardwired with this.

[Joanna Robinson]

But Alfa Molina very Specifically ripped his out of the wall.

[Chris Ryan]

He is an engineer. Everybody's got their little special skills thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

We've got a doctor, we've got an investigative journalist, and we've got Gina Davis, who's into crystals, which she'll will come in handy, you know, so, like, everyone having their occupation, that will be helpful. But also, I agree. Something I really do appreciate is this idea of like a vulnerable and. And you get this with kids, but a population that no one's going to believe or is easily dismissed or they

[Chris Ryan]

can be like, you're having, you know, dementia.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Ed Begley, jr's character in. In the first couple episodes here. But yeah. So watching Alfred Molina, who. Who. Something I do appreciate about these episodes, and again, I've only seen two, is like. Like, how we're not so far ahead of like, he's quick on the investigative date, you know, and he. He will probably draw the rest of them into this as they go forward. But, like, you know, he's already like, I saw something and I'm not believing the story they're telling about.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, I'm not even supposed to. I'm not even like, so old that I need to be here. So I know I saw something.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know I saw something. And so he's already investigating. So it's not like we saw the thing which we did in the. In the cold open and we're just waiting around for people to figure out that there's like, aliens in this show there with us. But how quickly. Like when he talks to his daughter, the great Jen Malone is here. Like that. How quickly he sounds unhinged and how easy it's going to be for him to be discounted. And so like that, you know, the commentary that the show can make about how we treat our elders and how we dismiss our elders is a potentially rich vein inside of the show.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, this is also, I'll say, set in New Mexico. Shot in New Mexico and like the Vince Gilligan universe. I think it's always nice when a show is just like, yeah, this is where we're shooting it. So, like, we're gonna have not elements of New Mexico culture, but, like, it looks like the kind of place where you're like, how, like, where is this village? And it's like New Mexico is the kind of place that those places pop

[Joanna Robinson]

up in the middle of the desert. Like, Area 51's over here and then right next to this. Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

And yeah, I think it just like, looks really good. I have this weird thing with shows like this, which I would describe as like a B tier Netflix show where the binge is almost like, if I don't keep watching this right now, I may just stop, you know, But I enjoyed what I watched and I'll try to give it some more to your

[Joanna Robinson]

point about the launch. I watched it a couple days ago. I started. We had the screeners for it. I started the screener. And then you're like, hey, I want to talk about the show. And I just open up Netflix and realized it's now out, you know, like, and. And there was just no fanfare between when it moved from my screener row to, like, it's just a show that's out there. But I'll be curious. I. I remember watching the trailer when it came out earlier this year, and I was like, this could either really be something or just a lot of

[Chris Ryan]

older people have Netflix. Also, I will say that there's a lot of really good details, especially in the first episode of, like, the D. Wallace character, like, watching Jeopardy and answering all the questions and then kind of watching Golden Girls and like, there. There's some really, like, good understanding without

[Joanna Robinson]

being the CPAP machine. Condescending machine being like, and Bill Pullman's great in. In what. What we get from him. Have. Have you watched the trailer of this?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, then I won't. I won't say what I said.

[Chris Ryan]

Does it give further?

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, it gives. It gives an indication of something is going to happen that I am uninterested in having. So you let me know when you get there.

[Chris Ryan]

We'll have to know what it is. I will. I want to talk to you about Widow's Bay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

We can do this one of two ways. We can do the episodes thing first and talk about Widow's Bay second, or we can just chat. I know you. You've been discussing it with Rob, so I don't want to make you double dip too much.

[Joanna Robinson]

Episode four is my favorite episode of television I've seen this year, so I'm happy to talk about it as much as possible.

[Chris Ryan]

Me too. And I will spoil Andy's takes where he is like, this is probably the best thing I've seen this year. Like, yeah, like, by far.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I have also started to notice anecdotally, more and more people being like, holy Widow's Bay. Like, so it does feel like it's starting to get, like, a little bit of heat in the streets.

[Joanna Robinson]

Have you noticed that Van was just in here and I had been hammering him to watch it and he was like, yeah. And then I was on the phone with Chris and Chris was like, hang up the phone and watch it. I was like, oh, I see. When I told you to watch it, you didn't, but Chris told you to watch it and you did. He's like, no, both of you are equally important. Anyway, you got Van to watch Devil

[Chris Ryan]

and Angel on his shoulder. Actually, Van is the devil on both of our shoulders, but, yeah, correct.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct. Yeah, absolutely. It's kicking up in the conversation, which is great. It deserves it. Like, it is. So it's a miracle of a show is how it feels.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I was reading a recap of it on Vulture, and I realized that I am not actually, like, I'm so blown away by a. That comic performances and just the staging of the whole thing and how for me, even just watching on my screen at home, three dimensional, the town feels already where I'm like, oh, yeah. And I kind of know where this is. And now they have to drive here. And I've already settled so into the landline technology and like, all these things about it that I have not really been like, hardcore clocking. The. The underlying lore of the town that I think is going to become increasingly important over the second half of the season. And we get a little bit of this at the Historical Society in this most recent episode, Shout Out Jerry. It speaks to the wonder of the show where it's like, it's there, it's gonna matter. But it is in so many shows that would be foregrounded. There is a lesser version of this show that is like, what do you mean? The mayor's wife? You know, like, from. Like we're piecing together all this stuff and this is so confident in the moves it's pulling and the characters it's developed that they can have that kind of like down in the. Down in the faders.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree with you and I think there's confidence across the board, like, with their. You know, something that Rob and I are tracking in our coverage is like, you know, we're doing sort of. It's hard to talk about comedy in a week to week kind of way.

[Chris Ryan]

Tell me about it. It's comedy month of rewatchables.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's difficult, but, like, the categories that we're sort of trying to frame this around, we have something that's like, obvious joke, and then we have something that's throwaway joke. And those are kind of hard to distinguish on this show. But there's just so many little jokes of, like, something written down somewhere. And the camera doesn't zoom in on it and make sure you saw it. It just rewards you if you took the time to look at it.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you see Katie Dippold on script notes?

[Joanna Robinson]

Script notes, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And so this is John August and Craig Mason's podcast where they talk a lot about, like, the very fine details of, like, screenwriting and production. And Mason is just like, I am in awe of this show. Like, you guys, do you know how hard it is to shoot that much at night? Do you know how hard it is to, like, get your production design team to make the teeth game? And it's gonna be a one second throwaway joke, but it's like, it's just

[Joanna Robinson]

some pliers in a box.

[Chris Ryan]

Someone. And I know from talking to Andy how hard that stuff is. Like when he was working on Briar Patch and he was like, yeah, like, I want, like, he was like, we wanted to do this beer label on our beer bottles, but we couldn't, so we have to do. You know, it's like. And he's like. And that took like a week. A week of, like, cumulative meetings about this beer bottle that's going to be in the back of a scene. And to see it get like, I'm picking up on those little things. And it's just. It's encapsulated in the Chris Fleming performance in this most recent episode. To speak to your point about obvious joke and throwaway joke, where I mean, the funniest thing of that I've seen this year is him being like, just don't look at a mirror. And then he closes the door and there's a full door mirror. It's just really fucking good.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just also really love the delivery of, like, When Patty Reckoned and she's like Todd o' Connor. And he's like, hey, Patty, you know, just like a real throwaway. Is that coke? Yeah. You know, or like, I have to go because my girlfriend's cat absconded or whatever. It's just so funny. Chris Fleming is so good in this episode, but also just like something that Rob and I did in our coverage of episode five is we went through, like, drug trip episodes that have been, like, really great throughout TV history. It's a formula that, like, almost always hits for me. But I really appreciated, you know, going back and looking at, like, Mad Men episodes or that Roseanne episode, et cetera, et cetera. I love the artistry of Alex P.

[Chris Ryan]

Keaton on caffeine pills.

[Joanna Robinson]

There you go. Yeah. I love the artistry of the lights going out and Coming back up as Tom Bliss at the time. And it's just sort of like, especially when he's. When you come up on the gas station and the car is just sort of like, you know, off kilter and just like all the lights come back on on the set as Tom is waking up and it's just like it looks incredible.

[Chris Ryan]

Who. I always forget her name. Who's the actress who plays the woman who's with him at the gas station?

[Joanna Robinson]

Rosemary Dale. Dale Dickey.

[Chris Ryan]

Dale Dickey, Yeah. She has now been present for two. Like the fact that she is there for Patricia's witch ceremony.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Burning Man.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then also for Tom's gas station and is completely nonplussed by either Unbothered

[Joanna Robinson]

knew about the hag heckled Tom into the hotel. What does Rosemary know? I'm. What has she seen that this is just like completely unbothered.

[Chris Ryan]

I hope that that's the thing. Also about this series. I've been thinking a lot about X Files just because I know they are going to. They're obviously rebooting it with Ryan Coogler and Daniel Deadweiler. But. But I saw that there's like a Chris Carter director's cut coming of I Want to Believe on dvd.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh my God.

[Chris Ryan]

On Blu Ray. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

So I've just been thinking about like maybe what a miracle that show is. But also like those were. We had something where it was like you can make something that flits in between the monster of the week and the season long story and the larger conspiracy. And I don't know that they want to make this show for eight years and ever put up episode numbers like, like X Files. But there's no reason why this couldn't have like a slow horses run where they are like I'm curious about that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like how long they can sustain the mysteries in the lore. Like how much is going to be wrapped up at the end of this season? How much do they have? Does Katie have the mentality of that A lot of TV creators have now, which is like put everything on the board because you don't know if you're going to get another season or how much is she thinking about it in a long term kind of way.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, it's so funny you should mention that because when I was looking at episodic runs in great TV shows and maybe even not all time great TV shows, but great episodic runs and I in so many of them. You can see the way TV changes as you go through the years to, you know, we have to go back. Probably be in, like, the first season if they were doing Lost today, like, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

But also, they wouldn't even, like, by the time you get to. We have to go back, you're 60 episodes into loss.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

To go back to your X Files point, I was actually just talking to a friend of mine who's watching it for the first time right now, X Files. And she's like, I don't know that I. I don't know that it's as good as. Everyone was hyping it for me. And we were talking about why. You know, I was like, you gotta get to the Darren Morgan episodes. And she got to the Darren Morgan episodes and she's like, okay, sometimes great, but there's a lot of stretch. And so. And she's a huge Buffy Vampire Slayer fan. So they're running similar at the similar time with similar episode counts. So why does that show work for her and this one doesn't? And we were talking about the depth of the cast because in Buffy Vampire Slayer or in Widow's Bay, we have a whole town of people that I am invested in. And with X Files, it's just Mulder and Scully. Like, you've got some other characters, but

[Chris Ryan]

it's always meeting these people.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's really just Mulder and Scully and. And the beauty of a 2224 episode season. The example I always love to bring up is from Lost, which is the season three episode, Trisha Tanaka is Dead, where they just. Hurley and JYN and Sawyer and Charlie get a VW Van restarted. That's the episode, basically. And a lot of people think it's a throwaway, but it's not. Because you're just investing in characters and you're spending time and they get to

[Chris Ryan]

interact with each other.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so those 2224 episode season, the Pit does this really well, where we're just. We have, like, a broad swath of characters. It's inviting us to just hang with them and spend time with them and emotionally invest in them. And that's what Widow's Bay is doing really well. Like, the sort of horror trope of the week thing that they're doing is really funny. But also, like, I'm invested in Patricia being shunned by all the girls she went to high school with. I'm invested in Tom's relationship with his son. You know, like, I care about Wick and Jerry's, like, dating background, you know, and, like, I'm interested in what's going on with Rosemary and what's really, Ruth Steele and what's happening with Dale, you know, and this is the Katie Dipple park and Parks and Recreation DNA that's inside of this show. But it's just created such. I don't. I would want to hang out with these characters for seasons and seasons of television.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, this script has been around for a long time. Like the Widow's base script. I'm curious. I would love to read earlier drafts of it, and I would love to know, because to me, the iceberg is nobody born on the island can leave the island. That's obviously why he's been keeping his son on the island. Whether or not he. The son is truly, like. Because I. In my house, we've been debating, like, if this kid's so naughty, why hasn't he tried to get onto a ferry yet? So does he know? Maybe intrinsically he shouldn't. That's, like, the one thing he shouldn't do. But if you were to save that for the cliffhanger of the end of the first season, that would be kind of a little bit more of what traditional TV would do. But instead, that's introduced, I think, in the middle of the second episode or something.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like we're getting a lot of lore really quickly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And that's great because, you know, that's something. Of course, that's something like Lost, a show that I love, but was accused of withholding answers. More. And answers. So, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, so I want to do this little exercise with you here. Widows Bay is on episodes four and five. Pretend like you have not seen any more Widow's Bay. I know that you guys just recorded. They are dropping six and seven together next week.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this a Memorial Day thing?

[Joanna Robinson]

No, I don't think it's a spoiler to say, because they've been leading up to this. Episode 6 is titled Our History. So it's like a flashback sort of thing. So I think they want to drop a more standard episode along with it to make it, you know, to not make you feel like I have to wait another week to check back in with. With characters I care about.

[Chris Ryan]

So they've begun this kind of like, I would say episodes four and five. Especially four. Everybody kind of responded to. I loved five as well.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I mean, you could say three is the hotel episode, and you could say they've already gone on a run in this. For the sake of our conversation, I'm classifying a run as three episodes or more. Two episodes is good. Three episodes is a run. And so now that we're watching Widows Bay do this, I wanted to like talk a little bit about. When I asked you this question, did you have an immediate response?

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, so sometimes, you know, whenever I get to go on the watch and you give me prompts, I get excited because I love talking about the history of television. I had already done the homework for this because a year ago when Mal and I were doing like our Buffy rewatches in Buffy Vampire Season 2 is my all time favorite run of episodes of television. And then I like, I tweeted it out, I said, is this the best run of episodes of television?

[Chris Ryan]

And some people.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then I got a bunch of responses. I was like, I already did my own,

[Chris Ryan]

so that's why it became prompt. Twitter. Yeah, exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Exactly. But Buffy Season two, which is. And normally I would hesitate to bring my nerdier genre stuff to the watch, but this is Widow's Bay. So here we are, Buffy season two, which is Surprise and Innocence, which is widely regarded as one of the best sort of turns of a plot that has ever happened in a show where our love interest on the show, angel the vampire loses his soul and becomes the villain of the show. And this is just like early Joss Whedon, we didn't know you could do this on television sort of stuff. So that's a two parter. Surprise and Innocence, incredibly good Phases, which is this great Seth Green werewolf episode. Just like Seth Green finds out that he's a werewolf. Incredible Bewitch, Bother and Bewildered, which is Xander fucks up a spell and all the girls of Sunnydale want to tear his clothes off.

[Chris Ryan]

Kind of like obsession.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And then Passion, which happens to be my favorite episode of all time of Buffy Vampire Slayer, which again is another. Spoilers for season two of Buffy, which aired 20 plus years ago. A major character dies in the first time that Joss Whedon ever did that in a way that I was 16 when I saw it. And I was like, I didn't know you could do this in story time.

[Chris Ryan]

Don't think my wife has recovered yet.

[Joanna Robinson]

So that run to me, starting with Surprise and Innocence phases and bewitchment, Bother. Bewildered though they are the kind of like quirky standalone. There's a werewolf episode, there's a Witchcraft episode, they're incredibly good. And then passion is just an all timer. And that is just like an incredible.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you watch it when it was on?

[Joanna Robinson]

I did.

[Chris Ryan]

And do you remember being in the throes of like, I can't. I like literally can't wait for Buffy to be on. This is so incredible. Did you even subconsciously understand that you were watching like a successive episode run? Kind of.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know about. Well, so. So I'm the exact same age as Buffy. So I was 16 and this was airing. And I think I told this story.

[Chris Ryan]

Grew up in a hell mouth.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, we're in County, California. But like, I wasn't allowed to watch TV on weeknights when Buffy was airing. I think I probably had gotten in trouble and that was my punishment or something like that. So I had a friend who would tape it and bring it to school for me.

[Chris Ryan]

So clutch.

[Joanna Robinson]

And she brought me passion. And she was just like. Like, if you can watch this before the weekend, that would be great. And I found a way to do it and I was just. And. But that was before, like, the Internet couldn't ruin it for me. We weren't online in that way. So it's not like I was gonna get spoiled necessarily. But she just really wanted to talk to me about what happened and passion. Very specifically. That's when I knew I was watching something incredibly that you'd be thinking about

[Chris Ryan]

for a long time.

[Joanna Robinson]

The rest of my life. That's my number one TV death of all time. I think, just because of when it hit, like, who I was, how it changed, how I understand how television works.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, I think that was the thing that was sort of awesome about that nascent period of TV going into what we consider golden age and prestige, where there's all this rule breaking happening. But because I. I don't even know if the executives in charge knew what was they had on their hands. So, like, obviously, like, I know that Buffy had like, like plenty of budget and, you know, headbutting going on behind the scenes with like, their. Their network execs and stuff like that. But, like, sometimes you would just be like home on like a Wednesday night watching something and you'd be like, is anybody else seeing this? Right. This is crazy. Yeah, I felt that way when I watched Battlestar season one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I was just like, this. Is this happening? Like, you know, my number one pick for this run that I felt pretty immediately was Succession Season 2, Episodes 2 through 4. That's Valter, that's Hunting, which is Bore on the Floor Safe Room, which is one of my favorite succession episodes of all time.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it because of how often you love to throw water bottles at Andy?

[Chris Ryan]

It's just. It is the episode that I think is piqued. Jeremy Strong.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought that was the Best. And he. And he and Shiv are just like in like another like planetary atmosphere in that episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's the hug.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not going to be me. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah. And then actually I love Turn Turn Haven.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's one of my favorite.

[Chris Ryan]

The only reason why I sometimes give Turnhaven a demerit is it is also the first time that I got mad at Succession because I did not think Shiv and Kendall were sufficiently acknowledging what had just transpired. Now you can say, like, that's just that family and this is also TV and all these other things. But I'm like, they had like this insanely vulnerable moment and Shiv got this incredibly important piece of information.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

That obviously Kendall is being blackmailed not to put himself forward as CEO.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

And so why is that not ever even acknowledged in the next episode?

[Joanna Robinson]

But I like a real Glee moment where like from episode to episode.

[Chris Ryan]

And it also felt like they reset and just became like banter. So Turnhaven is awesome though. But those three I especially love.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, hunting Incredible Valtor are very good. The thing that Turnhaven does that showcases what Succession does so well is just introduce you to a whole new cast of characters that you have mere minutes to sort of get. Learn who all these Pierces are. And it's just. And it feels very theatrical. And they got a bunch of theater talents in to play these roles. And I just.

[Chris Ryan]

It's so funny to go see he plays in the intervening years. How many Pierces are just like in a play?

[Joanna Robinson]

Exactly. Yeah. They just raided Broadway for this episode. But yeah, I love Turnhaven.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like the Pierces and all of Gilded Age. What was another one that you liked?

[Joanna Robinson]

You already claimed some of my favorites, so I will let you get to those. But I'll do another genre one Doctor who. I talk about this one all the time. Silence in the Library. This is the end of David Tennant's run as the tenth Doctor. So Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead, which is an all time two parter set in a library on a planet somewhere. And then Midnight, which is my favorite episode of Doctor who, which is like a standalone David Tennant with a bunch of random characters on a train and it's just this bottle episode. Chamber horror, like essentially like an Agatha Christie horror thing that happens on the space train. I love Midnight Turn Left, which then showcases the companion of that season. And then Stolen Earth and Journey's End, which is they. It was like Endgame before Endgame. They brought back all the characters, all the Characters from all the seasons for this incredible like two parter that is, you know, and I think Tennant is the best Doctor we've ever had. And they just gave him banger after banger. And. And Steven Moffat, who, who wrote Silence of the Library, Forest of the Dead, like this was a real audition for her to, for him to take over, which he did when Matt Smith started as the Doctor.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it widely regarded by other Doctor who fans as like peak Doctor who? Or is that like a. I will say.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or is this a joke? I will say Silence in the Library, Forest of the Dead is widely regarded as like an incredible two parter. And then the two parter at the end of the run, midnight in turn left because they are so odd. But I, I think in these side of these runs, and this is, this is a good case. I'll be curious what you think of Widow's Bay episode six. Like, can you have a run of like two episodes that are very much in keeping with the show and then. And then. Yeah. One that's like sort of off that. If it's incredibly good, does that just prove what the show can do even more?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, and it's funny that I, I picked succession and I was looking at some of the big blockbuster shows that we've covered over the years and I was going through Thrones seasons.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The run up to the children is like incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree.

[Chris Ryan]

But then you also look at the five episodes before that and you're like, those are pretty good too.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I just do all of season four?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So that's with genre shows and especially with shows that are adapted maybe like,

[Joanna Robinson]

or 10 episode seasons, you know.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. My next one was. I just, I forgot that this was the case the last three Better Call Saul episodes before Breaking Bad time takes over. And this is basically the end of Howard. And Gus is locked in chess maneuvering with Lalo about the meth lab. Holy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, holy.

[Chris Ryan]

I was watching clips from this last night to refresh my memory and like Kim with Lalo and all the stuff that Mike is trying to shows up at their.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. At the apartment. And also we were just so locked in because they had their plan in post its. And so we were just sort of. I was like poring over the post its and like. And the end of Howard is so tragic. And what's happening to Kim in that moment is so hard to watch, but irresistible. And you want to root for Jimmy and Kim, but you're like, what are we doing?

[Chris Ryan]

She's just self aware enough to be like I've. My soul died here. So, like, we can't be together anymore.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's so good.

[Chris Ryan]

And then, not for nothing, they just do more episodes of Breaking Bad after that, which is fucking crazy.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, yeah, I had a better Call Saul run from the previous season, which is Wexler versus Goodman.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

JMM Bagman. Bad Choice Road. Something unforgivable.

[Chris Ryan]

That might be better. That might be better.

[Joanna Robinson]

Call Saul was just unbelievable. Unbelievable television.

[Chris Ryan]

Let me ask you one. Did you have. So I put down on Andor, the prison arc 8 through 10, season 1. Did you have a different Andor arc?

[Joanna Robinson]

I do. Only because I saw you put the prison arc on there. And the Narkina arc is so good, but the Gorman arc in season two, I think also. And, like, this Andor is the perfect show because you have these three episode chunks. And I was like, does the Gorman arc beat the Narkina arc for me? And I. I don't know what does. Only because the Narkina arc is where we realize what we had in Andor. Right. And you get the Luthen speech and you. The Loy speech, like, in the same fucking episode.

[Sponsor Voiceover 1]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's also, like, the peak of, like, oh, Evan Moss. Backrack's gonna come on for three episode. It's just like, you can't really feel too safe with anyone because your favorite character might get killed in two episodes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. Nemec, our guy. So, yeah. So the Aldhani arc into the Narkina arc of season one are just incredible. The Gorman arc. I think that Gorman arc, at the end of the day, might be stickier for me because I know you and I were, like, really into tracking all of the French Resistance comps in season two. And then the end of the Gorman arc, which we have the Cyril Cassian showdown, which is one of the best moments in all of the history of television to me. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then also the feeling we all had that we're almost out of Andor.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And then Mon Mothma's escape is the next episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's the next episode after that. Right. And then we only have two more, you know, like.

[Chris Ryan]

And then it's Clea and Lonnie Time

[Joanna Robinson]

was just running the fuck out. And so, like, that was part of it too, where it was just, like, it was just slipping through our hands as we were watching it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Oh, man.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cause, like, when we watched. When we watched season one, we were like, maybe we'll get five seasons of Andor. And then by the time of season two, you're like. Tony's like, this is it.

[Chris Ryan]

When I did that pod with Sean, I was watching, I just kept watching the conference room scene of them putting down the shades and being like, calcite. You know, we just gotta get it out. What are we gonna do about these Gorman people? And I was like, I don't know. This. This might just be like a top five show for me of all time. Now, what to do about limited series or anthology series here is interesting because I. I think there's a lower degree of difficulty if you're just gonna do six episodes for your middle block to be really good. Good. You know, like, first episode, it's like, okay, meeting these people. Last episode. There's often a little bit of a kind of like winding down clunkiness to it usually. I think you and I both have a couple of shows that either intentionally or not intentionally wind up only being one season. I threw out. I threw out the middle three episodes of Chernobyl. I don't even in my mind, have like a. And then this happened. And then this happened. I just remember the vibe of it. But I also watched Chernobyl way after the point. Yeah. And I thought the end of Chernobyl was a bit not. Not my speed. But, like, the middle is just really great. And then I have episodes three through five of the first season of True Detective, which is Locked Room, who goes There? Which is the famous tracking shot and secret fate of all life, which is not. So if you have any limited or one season ones, we could talk about those.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. So Fargo season two, episodes seven through nine. So did you do this? No. You did it. Lop. Lop in the castle. The castle is Flying Saucer at the motel. Part of it is like, are these three episodes in isolation really good? Yes. But part of it also is the experience of having watched Fargo season one and saying, what is it? This incredible episode of television. Is Fargo the best show that's ever happened? That's how far season one happened to, like, felt to me at the time. And then Fargo season two happened and another incredible cast. But at first I was like, I don't know that they have it, and I'm unsure about Kirsten Dunst here. And, like, is what I want from Jesse Plummons and et cetera, et cetera.

[Chris Ryan]

Allison Tolman in season one or two?

[Joanna Robinson]

Two.

[Chris Ryan]

Two.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And. And then. No, she's. She's season one.

[Chris Ryan]

Sorry, Season one.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's season one.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cause season two is when you have Patrick Wilson playing Keith Hardy, but Chris Emiliotti's here. Like, it's incredible cast. San McLarnon is here, et cetera, et cetera. But when you get to the motel and it's just like flying, you know, Kirsten Dunn saying to Jesse Plemons, yeah, it's a flying saucer, and we gotta go. You're like, oh, bargo. Season two rips, you know? And so that's when you get the reassurance. The same thing happened with Andor, because I remember the first three episodes of season one of Andor, we were all like, we're not entirely sure of season one of season one, and then the Aldhani and Arcana. So, like, when you're like, oh, they know they're cooking. They know what they're doing. Like, that feeling is so sad.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. For Andor, it's very specific because we didn't have the preexisting. Even if it was, like, in the press notes, you didn't really understand how it was gonna feel to do. It's the three episodes, and then there's gonna be a time jump and a location change and a character ensemble change. With Fargo, I remember feeling, like, so cynical about the TV project in general, you know? And then by season two, just being like, this is actually, like, an incredible proof of concept that TV can do stuff that's just truly, truly remarkable when it comes to adaptation and riffing. I couldn't decide what my Watchmen run was. You put this down, but I knew it was in there, and I think you nailed it. But this is another good example of. I know it was in the middle for me somewhere, but I think you're going towards the ending, right? Or the second half.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's close, right? Little fear of lightning. This extraordinary being in almost religious awe, God walks into a bar and see how they fly.

[Chris Ryan]

That's, like, half the season.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. You could trim little fear of lightning and see how they fly off and just do this. Extraordinary being an almost religious awe, and God walks into a. And just sort of absolutely crush it. I mean, Watchmen is so special.

[Chris Ryan]

It's really cool that when. Because if you ever listen to Damon was on House of Horror. Damon Lindorf went on House of R. It was an awesome, awesome podcast.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

Now being aggregated to death, but that's okay. But I still kind of freak out. Like, sometimes I'll be talking to him, and I'll just be like, God damn, dog.

[Joanna Robinson]

You may wash meds.

[Chris Ryan]

You made some hits.

[Joanna Robinson]

You made Lost. You made the leftovers. I know. This extraordinary being being the, like, nostalgia episode, right? Like one of the best episodes of television ever. And then God walks into a bar also being like God tier television. So that. That, that those three and almost religious, like Watchmen.

[Chris Ryan]

I know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Remember how Watchmen happened?

[Chris Ryan]

I know. Thank you so much for doing this.

[Joanna Robinson]

You don't talk about loss, though, since we're here with you.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, so was if I was like, what's the three best episode run in Lost? Does. Is there a run that comes. Is it. Is it Season 3, 17 through 20 which culminates with we have to go back, or is there a different one?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think without question, it is Greatest Hits, through the Looking Glass Part one, Through the Looking Glass Part two. We have to go back because the Greatest hits, which is this Charlie episode leading, talking about TV deaths. The death of Charlie at the end of season three of Lost. Spoilers for Lost is incredible television.

[Chris Ryan]

And spoilers for Better Call Saul too, I guess. Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sorry, Howard, but like Charlie as a character on rewatching Lost, and you know, I did a podcast rewatching every episode of Lost, and like Charlie, the character does not work for most of season three because they had. The way that Daemon puts it, they arced out Charlie, they like, did all of his stuff too early, and then they just didn't know what to do with him. Right. And so. So he's just like running back the same drug loop over and over again. And so you're frustrated with his character, and then you get something like Greatest Hits, which is Charlie going back through the moments of his life that he's sort of like, he's been given this prophecy. You're gonna die, brother. Right. And so the episode before he's gonna die, and you're watching television and you're like, are they gonna subvert that? What are they gonna do? No, he just dies.

[Chris Ryan]

Force ghost. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

But you care so much more about it because you had this episode before, which could feel cheap if not done well, of just sort of this one character reflecting back on his life and all the little moments that he is proud of. A time that he helped a woman who was getting her purse snatched. The time that he was at a community pool with his dad as a kid. But it's just. It's done so well. And a perfect encapsulation of what the Lost flashback structure can do, that leading into Charlie's death, which coincides with his big lore. It was a flash forward. You were watching this whole time moment, which, like the sort of Buffy thing changed television forever. And people have been chasing that high forever. I don't think you beat it. It's so good.

[Chris Ryan]

Was there a different Thrones run?

[Joanna Robinson]

No. I think the end of four is like. Because I can name you isolated, standout episodes.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

That I think are better, but in terms of, like. Because I really think five is when I think five is when things start going wrong for Thrones and that's earlier than a lot of people think. No, that's six. Five is like Sansa's wedding and stuff like that. Like, I think 5 is the early germs of things going wrong.

[Chris Ryan]

I remember five.

[Joanna Robinson]

When's Hardhome is five, five or six?

[Chris Ryan]

Because Hard Home is when I kind of was like five.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder if it's going to feel like this where there's like. Like two or three episodes that are like, okay, pretty good.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

There's a Game of Thrones episodes, but it's a lot of like, two people walking and talking and then there is a blockbuster movie and then there's three episodes and then there's a blockbuster movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But for four. I remember just being, like, so fully captivated and also, like, so, so invested with the characters at that point.

[Joanna Robinson]

And like the way that the children end with a joke we used to make at the time is everyone you love is on a boat. Like, all these people just like getting on a boat to go. So the possibility of opening the world was so exciting.

[Chris Ryan]

That's the only part about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then that's just like a problem they had and the world got too open and they had to bring it back down. But four, I think, is like. And on rewatch, it's the last. For me, the end of four is the last time where I'm like, they just knew exactly what they were doing.

[Chris Ryan]

It almost is like. Like, that's when it felt like they still wanted to keep making it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, or they weren't thinking about

[Joanna Robinson]

or they were excited. Super excited about it.

[Chris Ryan]

Back in Los Angeles. Joe, thank you so much. Your champion, for doing this with me. I really appreciate it. Thanks to Kai and Kaia for producing today. Andy and I taking Memorial Day off. I'm sorry. To Sydney Sweeney. I hope that whatever happens to you on Sunday night will hold until Thursday.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rob and I are going live on Sunday.

[Chris Ryan]

See, this is why you're you.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no. It's just like, ill advised I to

[Chris Ryan]

do a live reaction to the Pacific Northwest. Man.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're living a better life.

[Chris Ryan]

Your work life.

[Joanna Robinson]

Balance is better than mine. I'm not.

[Chris Ryan]

I think we're about equally. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening. And we'll be back next week. Take care.

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[Joanna Robinson]

Mute.

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