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- [00:00]
A
This episode of the Watch is brought to you by Wayfarer. If I was to put together a perfect movie room, and I've been thinking about this a lot because I've been getting into physical media, I go for, yes, the tv, yes, the the credenza to put the TV on. Yes, maybe you get some surround sound going. But I need shelving, guys. I need shelving for these Blu rays and these 4Ks. The great news is at Wayfair, you can create a space that you'll love too, even if you don't have a Hollywood budget. That they are the destination for all things home. Which means whatever your style or budget, whatever your room you're decorating, they've got something for you. And they were my saviors when it came for shelving for my new DVDs for my 4Ks. So if you're ready to create a cozy space for movie nights, game days are just serious. Lounge and get inspired with room ideas and easy to shop collections. All with everyday ways to save. Shop everything home@wayfair.com with free and easy delivery straight to your door. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.
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B
This episode is brought to you by Paramount Plus. Now streaming on Paramount plus, it's an all new season of Mayor of Kingstowne. Academy Award nominee Jeremy Renner. My guy returns as Mike McCluskey, an ex con fighting to keep peace both inside and outside the prison walls of Kingstowne as he faces off with the new warden played by Emmy award winner Edie Falco.
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A
Wow.
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B
Now streaming on Paramount, it's an all new season of Mayor of Kingstown.
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A
Paying support staff to clear the room.
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C
Stand up and walk now.
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A
Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor@theringer.com and joining me on the other line, there's a new mayor in Kingstowne. It's Andy Wal.
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C
You're so excited. Hold on, let me get another sip of my restorative broth.
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A
I know, Andy, it's great to see you. This is the closest I've ever been. Last night was the closest I've ever been to demanding an emergency podcast. And then I remembered that you were asleep because you're in England. It's great to see you. Today on the Watch podcast, two big pieces of news. Taylor Sheridan is leaving Paramount and going to Universal. And we're also going to talk a little bit about Paramount's efforts to buy Warner Brothers Discovery and how These two stories, how they come together, how they meet in the middle.
- [02:31]
C
Interesting.
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A
We're also going to take a spin through a couple of comedies that are on TV right now, especially Nobody Wants this. Season two on Netflix and the Chair Company, which aired its third episode on hbo, Max and HBO on Sunday. Andy, great sweater. How you doing?
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C
Oh, thanks. You know, bright red here is the labor party. So it's actually like a red wave, just politically, in case you thought I was wavering or just hedging my bets to make sure I can get through customs when I finally come home.
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A
Make America Greenwald again.
- [03:04]
C
Sure. I mean, eventually it has to happen, right? It's hard to imagine, but it will. You know, it's interesting, like being in cryo sleep when you are awake and then vice versa. Because when I woke up and I checked the trades as I do, because, you know, man of the people, man of the industry, I saw the Taylor Sheridan news and I actually foolishly thought, huh, I can't believe this happened while Chris was asleep. And then I opened my email and there was a document on Google from you that was like podcast run of show. And it was basically like this. Like a. Like a Martin Luther manifesto? No, it had the strongest authorial voice of any notes doc I've ever seen. You are so excited.
- [03:48]
A
I'm glad that you respect my work, my work ethic. You know, I mean, very few things get me fired up like this. There's the trading of an all NBA player. There is the firing of a Louisiana state coach. You know, kind of. I like coaching carousels. I like transactional news. I don't know why I prefer stability in my personal life, but I love watching the chaos of things happen. And last night I was just hanging out. Well, I think I was watching Chair Company and Matt Bellany's newsletter. What I'm hearing just popped up in my email and I was like, let me see what old Matt has cooking on a Sunday night. That devilish grin of his. And what do you know, he broke a huge story. Taylor Sheridan is going to be leaving Paramount, according to Matt Bellany in his, in his newsletter. And I'm sure he and Lucas will be talking about this on the town, so I highly recommend people go listen to that for actual reporting and inside industry analysis. But Sheridan, after a long relationship with Paramount, where it saw him become one of the most prolific and successful modern television creators and showrunners. Yeah, when his deal is up in 2028, he is going to be joining Universal, NBC, Universal, Comcast. He was basically wooed by Donna Langley. I can go through a couple of the sort of major narrative headline points of Matt's reporting, but this is a really, really big deal. It's a big deal because I think that if you had been reading a lot about David Ellison's acquisition of Paramount, David Ellison, obviously from Skydance and, and he recently purchased Paramount and that that deal went through. He has talked ad nauseam about Taylor Sheridan. He has mentioned multiple times their close relationship, that he is a creator unlike any other that he will do. He's going to move heaven and earth to like, make sure that Taylor Sheridan is making TV at Paramount for the as long as he can. And, and now he's not. Before David Ellison really has time to measure for drapes in offices at Paramount, Taylor Sheridan, like, basically crown jewel of the television side of, of Paramount, is going over to Universal. Before I get into details, any initial reactions to this?
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C
Well, I think it is important and you did say this, the timing of this is not as dramatic as the headlines might lead you to believe. As you said, he is going to move his television business, his new television business over in essentially two years. Right. That's quite a long time. It also means that all of his existing shows, and you can recite them better than I can, but I, I will. Mayor, do it.
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A
Taylor's current shows include Mayor of Kingstown. Season four is airing currently, Tulsa Kings, which is in his third season. And then coming soon, there's Dutton. I'm getting through it.
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C
Okay. Okay.
- [06:46]
A
Yeah, coming soon, we've got Dutton Ranch, which is the Annette Benning and Ed Harris show with Cole Hauser and Kelly Reilly. That's the, that's the Yellowstone spin off that. There's Y. Marshalls, which is Luke Grimes from Yellowstone's spinoff.
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C
Wait, is it, is it, is it a question?
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A
No, it's like, why? I think it's supposed to be like Yellowstone colon kind of was like, why Marshalls?
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C
And then Timothy Oliphant shows up and it's just like, because I have a beach house. That's why Marshalls.
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A
Jesus Lioness season three was just renewed after closing the Nicole Kidman deal. Nola King is an upcoming show with Sam Jackson and the Madisons with Michelle Pfeiffer, Kurt Russell, Patrick J. Adams, which is also a Yellowstone show, I believe, and of course, Landman Season 2 coming in November.
- [07:34]
C
So all of those remain, both for the upcoming seasons and any potential future seasons. Those are locked in to Paramount. It's about new business. And we saw something similar happen when Ryan Murphy left FX for an enormous blockbuster deal that was kind of an industry rattling move that suggests that showed that Netflix was changing its business paradigm and was going to put out these mega deals for showrunners and auteurs. But at the same time, American Horror Story, American Crime Story, all of these longer running Ryan Murphy anthology series remain on FX and continue to be on fx. So the earthquake of this is more industry facing at the moment than I think it is audience facing, but it is very notable. So before we get into the Paramount of it, I think I could speak to the Universal of it, which is less reported because of all of the tumult at literally every other studio in town. Donna Langley, who is very widely respected as the film boss at Universal, her consolidation of power at Universal, taking over the TV side as well, has been relatively under reported and unremarked upon. Anytime anyone can be associated with the term consolidates power, there are going to be some major moves. And what is interesting about this is that it is a, at the very worst it is a floor setter or floor resetter for Universal's streaming strategy. And in a way it kind of echoes, I think, what NBC has become, which is basically the Dick Wolf network. When you get in business with Taylor Sheridan, you are in business with a lot of things, including branded steakhouses, but you are also in business with one of, if not the most prolific creators who can generate an enormous quantity of TV at a relatively consistent quality and can attract stars.
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A
I can't believe you were able to get through that last part.
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C
I was just staring into your eye. I missed you.
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A
Taylor Sheridan in the room with you right now.
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C
I guess I just miss America. I don't know. There aren't very many landmen here, that's why. But I guess so. And it, you know, it, it solves a lot of problems for you if you are trying to both program at volume to expand your business. And there was a lot of reporting this week about just how much, how much NBC, Comcast, Universal is betting on the NBA and how much it's going to need to massively, massively, massively scale subscribers in order to pay for that deal. This is another huge expenditure, but it is another play to shore up the base basically and guarantee a baseline of subscribers. The downside, and I'd like to hear you speak about this. You were mentioning you do like sports analogies. I don't know if you ever read a website called Grantland that combines pop culture and sports, but just so does the rare. Yeah, yeah, there is. That's true. Is there a version of this that this is Albert Pujols to the Angels?
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A
It's a really good question, man. It's like.
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C
And for those who don't watch, Matt.
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A
Mentioned this in his piece where it's like it there could be, despite all the public facing, like, we just love Taylor. We just want to be in the Taylor business forever.
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C
Sure.
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A
That perhaps the Ellisons and Cindy Holland and the folks at Paramount felt like they had seen the best days of Taylor Sheridan. Yellowstone was a very expensive show that ended very poorly. You know, a lot of these shows that he has on the air right now, you could make the argument are on their way to being finished or should be finished. So I think that within the realm of the reality of the TV show or like the reality that the TV show Lioness has created, I think you could do one or two more seasons of Zoe Saldana trying to decide whether or not she wants to stay at home with Dave Annabelle, or go out into the world and seduce women into becoming lionesses and attacking terrorists. Like, there's like, you could do that show for as long as you wanted.
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C
But like, I felt your thumb on the scale there as to what you would prefer. But please continue. You do not need to pretend to.
- [11:57]
A
Be Kingstowne's in season four. Obviously Jeremy Renner I guess could just keep doing that show for as long as he wants. But of what I've seen of the fourth season, I think that's another one where maybe creatively it's kind of reaching an end. Also, it's worth noting that a lot of the stuff that maybe you're thinking is Taylor Sheridan is no longer Taylor Sheridan. He's not really writing on Mayor of Kingstown. He doesn't work on Tulsa King. Some of the Yellowstone spinoffs have different showrunners attached. And Taylor Sheridan's not writing any of the scripts now. He wrote all of Landman Season 2, so he is heavily involved in a bunch of stuff. But from the Paramount side, I guess I could see them saying, like, we feel like we've got. We've seen his best days and he is expensive. And his shows, as Matt reported, between 15 and 20 million dollars per episode for some of these shows, they're massively expensive. He shoots on his own property, you know, so there's a lot of like, kickback action going there. That's my description of it, not Matt's. But I can make the argument otherwise, though I can make a pretty strong argument for the future for M2.
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C
It's not. And it's worth noting. It's not just Taylor, it's his longtime producing partner, David Glasser, whose 101 Studios is branded on every one of these programs. I think that that last point is interesting and it's certainly something that I bet that deep background, or maybe even not even that deep background, Paramount shills will start spinning, which is it already had become a, you know, that they are in business with Taylor Sheridan. Taylor Sheridan in no way works for them. They are basically partners with him and his enterprises, which means accepting episodic budgets that are, I mean, the numbers you're quoting, those are the numbers that HBO spends on House of the Dragon. Right. Like, those are the highest level of episodic numbers that we usually get. And you know, it's. There aren't. I mean, I haven't seen a lot of the Yellowstone spinoffs, but I don't think there are a lot of dragons in them. I know there are a lot of like.
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A
No, but I mean, I can see why 83 and 1923 cost a lot of money, but I think that they're referring more to things like Lioness, where he's got like gunships flying over.
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C
Yeah. And the other thing is he doesn't. It's, you know, I was about to couch this as if it. We don't really know. I think I feel definitive in saying he doesn't take a lot of notes and I can't imagine any, any long standing relationship structures that he felt the need to respect or, you know, grudgingly accept a note here or there from those aren't going to exist in his new oper. It is basically a fiefdom within the larger Comcast Universal properties. So it's massive and it definitely is going to be framed as a. Did Ellison take his eye off the ball by pursuing the Duffer brothers and promising them their follow up to Stranger Things and Cinematic releases? And did he feel slighted by that? Is it going to be a David Benioff and D.B. weiss situation where Netflix swoops in, you know, pays them untold millions to make the follow up to Game of Thrones, spends untold millions on it, and you end up with two seasons of a. You know, I still think kind of intriguing, but I don't think the general marketplace feels like, like it was a particularly successful show. Chris, we're, we're doing the head. I want you to do the heart. What does your heart say about this? Well, as always a fan and for.
- [15:21]
A
Yeah, I find him fascinating. I find this decision fascinating. I think as far as creators in the current TV landscape goes, he, he strikes me as relatively unique because not only is he so prolific, he's is essentially his own studio, right?
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C
Like absolutely.
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A
He's got, obviously has sway with some pretty big names. John Hamm, Nicole Kidman, Billy Bob Thornton, you know, Samuel L. Jackson, Michelle Pfeiffer, Kurt Russell. Like all of these people who are circling or attached to his project. I'm very curious to see what happens by the way, with how those people feel about their shows now that Taylor Sheridan may or may not be heavily involved in them. You know, I assume he is going to see out the, the contracted work that he has. But like there's a big difference between Taylor Sheridan writing 10 hours of your show and writing the pilot, you know, so I'll be curious to watch that. But I find it fascinating how he has also, aside from all these stars like a kind of stock company that he works with a lot, there are a lot of faces that pop up in a bunch of shows. He essentially has his own means of production by shooting on his own land in Texas and I think is kind of a self sufficient creator in that way. So all of that stuff I've always found fascinating, as is the really wild swings and mood swings of his shows themselves, which I don't think are as easy to pin down as people who maybe only take a casual look at them might think. Outside of that, I find the destination, this is a little bit more head than heart. I find the destination pretty amusing where he's going. Pretty amusing because one of the things that drove people a little bit nuts in the sort of emergence of Yellowstone and the emergence of Sheridan is the fact that Yellowstone was still streaming on Peacock. Peacock had made a deal in an earlier iteration and an earlier Paramount administration. They were like, well, we need money so we'll be arms dealers as well as studio. And they sold off the streaming rights to Paramount, I'm sorry, to Yellowstone, to Peacock. So while Peacock has been airing, you can only watch Yellowstone streaming on Peacock, despite the fact that it was basically the flagship show of Paramount plus, you know, if you understand what I mean. So all of the spin offs, all of that stuff, it airs on the Paramount network, but when you want to watch it on two days after it's been aired, you go to Peacock to do it. So now he is in a weird way coming home. I, I am very interested to see whether or not this changes the kind of stuff he does and also whether or not he actually takes a step away from the amount of TV he's been making and goes back to features because I've long been very interested in his TV work, but I think his features are absolutely inarguably better. Hell or High Water, Wind River, Sicario. He is an incredibly talented feature script writer. And if Donna Langley came in and said, let's, let's do a bunch of different stuff together here, why don't we make some movies that would be actually creatively probably the most exciting thing for me. In Matt's reporting, he mentioned that one of the things that happened that sort of sent this sideways was apparently, according to Matt, Paramount trying to get involved in the streaming rights to a movie that Taylor had going at Warner Brothers. And Paramount was like, well, we'll, we'll distribute it. And he does. He was not a fan of that. And then according also to Matt, he was not a fan of the fact that he found out secondhand that Nicole Kidman had signed up to do another Paramount show outside of Lioness. So it just goes to show you that these things are all very delicate. No matter how rich and how powerful people are, like, there are still egos and there are still, there are still little like comedies of manners taking place. And the biggest, with the biggest stakes.
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C
Can I give you the best case scenario here in my mind for Peacock, which is plucky like, no pun intended, like, has reasons to watch it, has reasons to keep subscribing to it. What I find interesting about it is that for as long as I've been writing about TV and we've been talking about on the podcast, I think we often go back to this idea that unlike a lot of the streaming services, certainly all of them when they launch, NBC has always had a pretty strong brand identity. And what was challenging about the early days of Peacock is that they didn't seem to track one to one. I would argue that we are starting to see that shape take hold a little bit more in a way that I think is smart and potentially sustainable. And I say that without Matt's expertise of any of the actual financial stuff that gets things done these days. So I have no idea. I, I keep referring to it, but like the financial numbers of the NBA deal are like terrifying, even if you don't fully understand what they mean. But what I mean is you are starting to see the contours of a streaming service that does a little bit of everything and feels a little bit like comfortable tv. It has all the Bravo reality shows and the Traders which, which are good business Cohen and all that stuff. It has the comedy legacy so it has streaming Parks and Rec, streaming the Office, and they've doubled down on that or at least accentuated it by the paper, which I think is really good and fits right into the people who are like, oh, what's your next watch? It has the Dick Wolf universe of all those Chicago shows, all the Law and Order shows, and it has NBA basketball, it has football. And now you add Taylor shared the Taylor Sheridan plank, which is a, you know, or could, could or should be a dependable type of show with a dependable type of viewer. And, and if you squint, you see it especially because in the background of all this, and maybe it's better served in the background, the original programming department has a bunch of kind of wild swings coming up. There's the Miniature Wife, which is a very strange sounding comedy with Elizabeth banks and Matthew McFadden. There's a again, what sounds like a very creative spy show called Ponies coming with Emilia Clarke. If you look at their original slate, it is not playing it safe and it's interesting to see the kind of like stabilizing guardrails of all this other stuff go up around it. Is that a strategy to survive in this consolidating, insane economy? I don't know, but I'm interested.
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A
What do you think? If you're obviously for our listeners who don't know about the vagaries of overall deals and development deals and things like that. Okay, so it's late 2025 now. Taylor Sheridan has a bunch of shows either hitting the airwaves, about to hit the airwaves, or scheduled to hit the airwaves next year. Presumably Landman will retain its audience, let's just say. And there will be desire for a third season of that.
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C
Sure.
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A
Realistically, does Taylor Sheridan start handing off duties to some of these shows to a non existent coaching tree? Because unlike lots of showrunners, I would say I can't really identify a ton of people who have come out from under Taylor Sheridan to have their own thing. You know, this is not Chris Carter to Vince Gilligan to the Breaking Bad Mafia. This is a guy who writes his.
- [22:47]
C
The reason why the baseball analogy doesn't work is because when Albert Pujol signed with the Angels, he didn't continue to provide batting services to the Cardinals for the next two years. Do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't work like that. The way contracts work generally is you are contracted, you're still connected and you are still producing the shows that predate your new deal. Hearing about, for example, Francesca Sloan leaving Mr. And Mrs. Smith season two at Amazon and presumably an overall deal that she may have had to go work on Big Little Lies Season 3 at HBO isn't as common as I think you often would think. Like in so doing, she left immediately and she is no longer involved in Mr. And Mrs. Smith season two. The two year window. I don't know if there's going to be like negotiations or wiggle room, but he loves Landman and America loves Landman and Chris Ryan loves Landman. So I don't know if I just think he would make it. Yeah, I'd be eager to hear experts who listen to a podcast.
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A
Well, I was also going to ask you like, does he start working on things for Peacock now? And when the calendar flips to 2028, he's like, this is when it gets tricky.
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C
Okay, so for what it's worth, the streamers are already scheduling for 2028. That's already happening. I know it feels far away for us, interminable if you read political news, but that is where these people are. So the question is, do they want something from him on the air in 2028? And I imagine they do. And I truly do not know contractually what services he can provide to what. Because I think the goal would be to have stuff on the air as soon as possible to maximize what is no doubt an enormous spend. But I think it's a two track thing. Pitching things or developing things or slow walking things or redirecting things, pitching going on, telling them what he's going to be doing would probably make sense right now. Yeah.
- [24:51]
A
Okay. I'm curious. Yeah, because that would be the. It's almost like, you know, it's not like pencils up when 2028 rolls around. I'm sure there are going to be things in, in the flow. But like you mentioned, Ryan Murphy has stuff still airing on fx, you know, and on, on Disney properties, you know, even though he's at Netflix. So I, we'll see what happens with that. One of the interesting things about the Destination, about Taylor Sheridan's destination, is how it affects Comcast's standing in the last network standing sweepstakes. Because the long discussed talk of consolidation and contraction seems to finally be upon us. Andy and I, I made a joke about this last week but then forgot to actually talk about with you. Talk to you about it on the Thursday show. But last Tuesday David Zaslav came out and said, you know, because Paramount has made two bids for us, I think.
- [25:53]
C
Upwards was a lot.
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A
I think they're anticipating a third bid. David Zaslav said I am. We, we should look into selling some or all of this company whatever is best for the shareholders, etc. And has suggested it's been reported by, by Matt Bellany and others that there are other bidders kicking the tires outside of Paramount. Now they may not be anywhere close to the consistently like throwing down money like the way Paramount is and saying how about 25 a share or whatever it is. But there are rumored to be offers incoming or being considered from Amazon, mgm, from even, even Netflix. Even though the Netflix co CEO Greg Peters has kind of been like mergers don't really work. You know. And then we, we like to build things rather than buy things and Apple and of course Comcast, Universal. Now I think everybody took it as a fair accompli that, that Paramount was going to do this because they were the ones who seemed to be showing up at the table with a bag of money. But as Matt pointed out and as anybody who read the story about Taylor Sheridan can figure out, you don't do this if you think you're going to.
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C
Be.
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A
Closing up shop or 6th place or some small, small fry streaming network. You don't go out and get Taylor Sheridan in the NBA and then say oh man, well David Ellison is here. So I guess I just have to like be happy showing Below deck reruns. You know. Like this feels like a significant power up move by Comcast Universal. The reason why I bring all of this up, you know, just I want to get your impression of, of, of the Warner Brothers sale in general. Although I know it's a difficult or complicated conversation to have given some of your. Yeah, but, but yeah, like I think two weeks ago I was like this is gonna be like when Ellison bought Paramount where we pretend like it may or may not happen, but it's always gonna happen. It was always going to happen. And one of the reasons why I think it's the most likely to happen is just because he seems to have the quickest pathway to yes from the White House right now. So that would be very helpful. But we'll see. I mean I'm very curious to know what you think about this.
- [28:15]
C
Well, a couple things like I, I don't know how often I should be or should not be doing this but like the caveat or the disclosures is like I, I work for some of these companies and currently I'm working for more than one of them and I'm in England right now working for Warner Brothers Discovery. I have project at Universal. I have worked for most of these companies that never Paramount at times. And all I can say is, you know, I feel like my track record of being honest, sometimes painfully so, is pretty consistent. And that's all, like, that's pretty much all I'm capable of doing or wired to do. I. So I'll continue to do that and just speak as freely as I feel that I'm capable of speaking. So I think there are multiple ways into the Warner Brothers sale. I think one of them is with we were doing head versus heart stuff. The heart version of it is this is absolutely devastating and it sucks. And it sucks for emotional and cultural reasons, not because the Warner Brothers themselves were like famously great guys or they have an unparalleled 100 year track record of success or like the time AOL bought them. But it is a legacy studio with a legacy footprint in an industry town that is feeling the ground fallout from under it. And particularly in a year when HBO has continued to produce phenomenal shows. Task just ended a week ago in a year in which the heads of Warner Brothers films, Pamela Abdy.
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A
Pamela abdy and Mike DeLuca. And they're on All Time Heater are.
- [29:56]
C
On an All Time Heater in a way that has felt really inspiring even to people who don't have any stake in Warner Brothers movies. Because it felt like at the top of the year the rumblings were that David Zaslav was going to replace them. And then every movie they've put into theaters for the most part has been a success.
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A
And they arguably laid out a blueprint for how to do it where you.
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C
Mix and how to market.
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A
Yeah, like very crowd pleasing ip like with originals with big directors getting like a huge check to try and create some new IP of their own. So you get sinners, you get weapons, you get one battle after another.
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C
And all this happening despite, you know, the studio being, you know, it's unluckily in the hands of someone who basically used the system very well to do something that is insane, which is to buy a successful media company with debt, which is what David Zaslav did. And then burdening this company with all this debt. And despite that, you know, it still seems to be somehow staying afloat. So there have been like, you know, people, smart people in the industry have said, oh well, the, the only move going forward, this is even before the Discovery deal will be Paramount and Warner Brothers somehow only because they are legacy studios that can't really scale up without someone else.
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A
That's an important point that maybe we should just make to people who are not living in Los Angeles.
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C
And.
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A
And, you know, I think that the biggest thing for me is, like, what it would mean for the city and what it would mean for people who work in this industry. But beyond that, you know what, what you have to understand is the reason, what's animating all of this is that these studios are falling behind Netflix at, like, a pretty alarming pace, you know, in terms of their subscriber bases.
- [31:40]
C
And they can't compete with Apple, they can't compete with Amazon just, you know, financially. And they don't have the, the legacy characters and IP and theme parks and cruises that Disney does. So they're always, always at a disad from that people saw coming from years back. I think it'll be interesting. There's already been some rumblings that the WGA or the Producers Guild, sag, the unions, might start flexing whatever muscles they feel they still have to disrupt this or stop this. I think that there's real concern that, okay, let's say Netflix buys Warner Brothers, and we don't know how real that interest is, but if Netflix buys Warner Brothers, is that the end of theatrical? Like, is that just. Is that it? If Apple buys them, is that the end of theatrical? Because they make, you know, they make little slights towards putting movies in theaters sometimes, but that's just not their business. And they've increasingly stopped pretending that it is The Paramount thing that is also really freaking people out is the politics of it.
- [32:41]
A
Yeah.
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C
And I think that should be freaking people out if Paramount feels emboldened to do a deal that would normally draw the ire of regulators, as it should, but feels confident doing it because they are, you know, they have special status from a deeply corrupt administration. That fucking sucks for everyone. That fucking sucks for capitalism. It sucks for citizens of this country. It sucks for everyone. And that's not even getting into, like, give Barry Weiss the keys to cnn. Like, that is just. It is so fundamentally crooked if the, if the whisper is clear the room, because no one's going to get approval except Trump's buddy Larry. Like, that's just. That's Banana Republic shit. And I know we're already there, but this is the topic we're talking about. And so this is the one that is making me pissed off today.
- [33:33]
A
Yeah, I agree with you. I think that it would be very troubling. I think it would also be troubling if Universal were shut out of this because they have msnbc. You know what I mean? And because Trump doesn't like Brian Reagan Roberts or whatever it is like.
- [33:47]
C
And what's weird is how quickly it's all happening because NBC Universal has already announced Versat. They're spinning off their news business. MSNBC is becoming like, what is it like they're changing their name completely to like Ms. Now or something. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. They're already divesting these other networks. And Zaslav was spinning off Warner Brothers Discovery.
- [34:09]
A
Right. That was the plan is that Warner Brothers Discovery was going to split the streaming and studio side away from the linear cable television.
- [34:16]
C
Yeah. And stick the linear stuff with the debt, with the hope that the other company would be sexier or more successful. And now maybe it's like, no, maybe I won't do that at all. Maybe I'll just sell. You know, it. This is, it's all a pretty sad indictment of where we are. Not that these institutions made good decisions and should be propped up by goodwill, but what is this business? What is it for? Who is it for? Who gets to be involved in it? It's pretty existential stuff.
- [34:41]
A
Yeah, I, you know, I've tried to over the last couple of weeks get my head around, you know, especially actually. I think one of the reasons why I've been hesitant to talk about this is because I don't really know what I want. Like, I don't know whether or not it hasn't. I mean, I, I know I don't want necessarily Paramount to buy Warner Brothers, but I don't know what I want when I sit down and I turn on a smart tv, how do I want it to work? What do I want given to me, you know, how do I want to give? But I think that, you know, it's like, it's weird for me as a 48 year old person to be like, here's we gotta get back to having three channels.
- [35:26]
C
It's so sweet. You're not even 48 yet, but you.
- [35:28]
A
Do, you know, like when, like eventually I will be 48, but like it's like, do you want to go back to having four channels? Do you want to go back to cable? Do you want to go back to. Or do you want to break it all apart where everybody is always watching everything on demand on their phones or whatever it is. Like I'm trying to be open minded about the realities of the way people watch television and the way people process culture. Now to the extent that these two conversations are kind of separate, like ultimately this is of real importance to us because I think we have sentimental attachment to certain like iconic companies and iconic studios. And we want HBO to keep making really good television. And I want Paul Thomas Anderson to get to make something with the same scope as one battle after another. And it seems like Pam Abdi and Mike DeLuca will would at least try to make that happen. But when it comes to like the consolidation and the contraction, sometimes I am of the mind of we need to go through the dark time to get to some kind of like equilibrium. And I mean obviously there's not enough money in the world to keep these companies functional unless they have a billionaire parent like Larry Ellison or a sovereign wealth fund or something. Like Disney did the same thing here with Fox where they are saddled with debt and nothing is good enough for Disney. And that's why people are getting squeezed at the parks like as ATM machines because they're trying to like make this company profitable any way they can.
- [37:06]
C
I'll say though this is just a small thing. Everything you're saying I agree with and I think is factually true. I think what is missing in any of these conversations is any consideration of the human element. And because I am currently working for Warner Brothers and hbo, I won't even use them as an example. Although I do think that what we are sentimental for is the fact that there is still some version of the HBO that we love in play. Because we had task last week and we have the chair company right now. You know what I mean?
- [37:36]
A
Like and welcome to dairy and we'll have industry and we'll have like our stuff.
- [37:40]
C
Yeah. The example I'll use that is a good example is when Disney bought Fox, there was an enormous amount of speculation as to what would happen with fx. Would it either be shuttered, would it be marginalized, would it be exploited? Meaning would John Landgraf and the other executives be plucked out of the company and culture they built and put in charge of something bigger? Because bigger is always better. And I hope to one day read like an interesting behind the scenes article about this. Or maybe there was no drama at all so it wouldn't be a particularly good read. But FX has thrived and I'm sure that some aspects of the culture has changed. But for whatever reason, Bob Iger didn't think the Soderbergh Adam Driver Star wars movie was a good idea.
- [38:24]
A
But he thought Shogun was cool.
- [38:25]
C
Yeah, did think Shogun was cool and did understand that what FX has built and we talk about it a lot like it's the consistency of the leadership structure, it's the consistency of taste. It's how they engage and deal with creators that keep people coming back. And it results in a consistency of quality and of interest and of noticeable things that do move some needles in an impossible environment. And then every so often it also gives you a shogun and like the conversation about that, like nurturing something. I mean, the conversation's over because there are very few places when I places, I mean like buyers, streamers, networks that have any kind of consistency anymore that aren't just like those fucking wind puppets in front of car dealerships just desperately hoping to pick up some breeze. And that's really what like, you're never. I'm not, we're not fans of corporations.
- [39:21]
A
No.
- [39:22]
C
I'm fans of consistency and quality and culture when we get it. And I think that we're worried that we're just going to lose all that to an algorithm.
- [39:29]
A
Yeah. And the biggest worry that I have is that if these decisions are getting made for these purely financial reasons, which I'm sure they always have been, but there is romantic nostalgia about an era when the people running the companies at least had a passing interest in the culture of movie making or television or.
- [39:50]
C
The product that they make. Yeah. The audience that they're attempting to engage with. Yep.
- [39:53]
A
But that we start getting less and less stuff to talk about now. Maybe we, now we have too much to talk about and we wind up missing a bunch of stuff or, or getting overwhelmed by choice or whatever. But I do. That's, that's my primary concern. But we'll see where it goes. I mean, it seems like this, this, these two stories to me do feel tied together. That, you know, you can think something is going to go one way and then out of nowhere, you know, one of the main, one of the main characters of this decides to go to a different company and that, that can change, change the balance of power in some ways. Or maybe I'm overrating Taylor Sheridan's importance. I don't know.
- [40:35]
C
Well, again, it's. We don't know because we don't know what the priorities are for whatever it's worth. Like as much as we want to pigeonhole the Ellisons and Paramount as one thing, hiring Cindy Holland, late of Netflix does not jive with this idea that it is just like a right wing heartland takeover of a legacy brand. Like, that's not what she is known for, that's not who she is and that's not the type of programming that she has historically made. And I don't mean to like look down on like heartland programming. I just mean it is never as simple as a slanted headline might have you believe. And we don't know what she's going to be privileging. We just know that their checkbooks are open. But not open enough for the. What's the name of his ranch?
- [41:13]
A
The Four Sixes.
- [41:14]
C
The Four Sixes. That's confusing. Yeah, pick one.
- [41:19]
A
Let's take a quick break and then we'll get into some laughs. Think your lashes have hit their limit? Discover limitless length and full volume with Maybelline Sky High Mascara. The Flex Tower Brush bends to volumize and extend every single lash from root to tip. And the lightweight bamboo infused formula makes lashes feel weightless. Now in eight bold shades so you can take your lashes to new heights every day. Visit maybelline.com to shop Sky High Mascara now.
- [41:48]
B
This episode is brought to you by degree Original Cool Rush, the scent that's made a legendary comeback. See, Cool Rush isn't just a scent. It's the kind of fragrance that guys remember, ask for by name and rave about online. It's bold, it's fresh. Delivers all day sweat protection with that cool, crisp vibe that made it a legend. So if you haven't tried it yet, head to your local Walmart or Target and grab degree Cool Rush, the fan favorite scent from the world's number one antiperspirant brand. This episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush, the scent that's made a legendary comeback. See, Cool Rush isn't just a scent. It's the kind of fragrance that guys remember, ask for by name and rave about online. It's bold, it's fresh. Delivers all day sweat protection with that cool, crisp vibe that made it a legend. So if you haven't tried it yet, head to your local Walmart or Target and grab degree Cool Rush, the fan favorite scent from the world's number one antiperspirant brand. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Whether it's a game day or backyard fire pit or simply to enjoy delicious food with the people you love, Whole Foods Market has got you find great everyday prices on 365 brand favorites like organic tortilla chips and salsa. Plus apple cider sandwich cookies. Yum. And right now you can save 50%. That's right, 50% with prime on select frozen pizzas through October 28th. Visit your local Whole Foods Market today and store online. Terms apply.
- [43:11]
A
All right, Andy, we're back. You know, before we laugh, I just was gonna mention welcome to Dairy, which premiered last night.
- [43:16]
C
Yeah, I wanna know what you think?
- [43:17]
A
I thought a very brave pilot. The episode was called the Pilot. Andy Machete directed it. This is obviously a prequel to it, the Stephen King blockbuster novel. And then the, the pair of movies that came out recently. Plus there was a miniseries, a beloved miniseries, years before that. This is dialing that miniseries back to almost a standby me era for the, for, for the story. And it kind of talks a little bit about, you know, what I would say. It's not even really like an origin story necessarily. Like, it's, it's kind of its own thing. And one of the things I liked about it was that it has created a reality within the television show where anything can happen. So without spoiling it for you or anybody who hasn't seen it, I would say go into this show and don't have any expectations because they will take left turns and right turns all over your, your body. It was really.
- [44:15]
C
Does that mean it'll go. Ultimately, does it go straight then?
- [44:19]
A
I can't tell.
- [44:20]
C
It turns left and then it turns right.
- [44:22]
A
Well, after it's run you over and your expectations are just spread out all over the highway. No, I mean, I, I, There were parts of it that I thought were, like, kind of stale retreads and feeling like you're starting from the beginning with a group of kids, and there's like, this one, and then there's that one, and there's this one, and they all have a trauma and they're trying to figure it out, and there's a mystery, and it turns out that the mystery is actually an unsp, Unspeakable evil living in the sewers. Like, I've done this carousel before, but there was ways that they executed it, and there were parts of it that I felt like kind of had earlier Stephen King gonzo, like, almost like maximum overdrive vibes of like, okay, what the.
- [45:03]
C
That's interesting.
- [45:03]
A
Yeah. So I'll be curious to see where it goes over the next couple of weeks. But I, I, I am it. I am. Mark me down as, like, intrigued if.
- [45:15]
C
Can I give you a quick, a quick this or that for it, since I probably, you know, I think people can guess this. Probably won't be watching it just because of the genre and the vibe. Is this more Penguin or Dune prophecy.
- [45:29]
A
In terms of watching prophecy?
- [45:32]
C
Well, I think you understand the role that example plays in the question.
- [45:37]
A
Penguin.
- [45:38]
C
I guess, then that's positive.
- [45:40]
A
Okay, you want to talk about. Nobody wants this.
- [45:44]
C
I do.
- [45:44]
A
As always with the Netflix shows, it's a little complicated because you don't know how much people have watched over that opening weekend. This is the number one show on Netflix. So I am safely assuming that if you're interested in Nobody wants this, you've watched a lot of it. And also there's not a ton to spoil about the show. It's really more about analyzing how they have adjusted it for the second season. So starting with that. Andy, what did you see in the second season? I don't know how many you've watched that differs from the first.
- [46:13]
C
So I've only watched a couple. I've watched, I think three or four. And I have, I mean, I have a lot of positive things to say and I have some questionable things to say on the positive side of the ledger. Everything that I liked from season one is still there. And that is the cast. It's Adam Brody, it's Kristen Bell, it's their chemistry. It's our buddy Tim Symonds, it's Justine Lupe. It's a wonderful cast and a wonderful ensemble. And also sometimes they film like three blocks from my house, which is nice to see, but also I would like one of their houses. So, you know, so it's a little bit.
- [46:51]
A
You're working through some stuff on the spot.
- [46:53]
C
I'm working through some stuff. Like I was like looking at this, I'm like, God damn, we should podcast in a house like that that one of us should own. But we can't afford the big picture positive. And if anyone who's really deep in this read the Hollywood Reporter cover story on the show last week, which is an incredibly polite version of what sounds like a pretty messy process for season one with a first time television creator and Aaron Foster and a bunch of very veteran television creators like Steve Levitan juggling over who's controlling the show and what the show even is, and actors showing up and not really even knowing what their character is meant to be doing that day. And suddenly it's a huge hit. What I felt regardless, like, I think this would have been evident even to people who didn't read that article, which is that steady hands are at the controls this season. Jenny Connor, late of Girls and Single Drunk Female and a bunch of other television shows and Bruce Eric Kaplan, who worked with her on Girls, took over as I guess technically their co showrunners are there in Foster, but they are the ones whose hands are on the rudder in terms of getting things done and making things run on time. And instantly in the season premiere it's like, oh, okay, it's a TV comedy. It's a TV comedy. That has an enormous wealth of talent. And what you do in successful TV comedies is you lean on your talent and you put them in positions to succeed. And there's a moment in the premiere that for me was everything that made me feel much more confident about the show, which is there was a very weird. Are they will they or won't they? With Tim's character of Sasha and Justine's character of Morgan, even though Tim is married to a character played by Jackie Tone, who's a great actress who was on Glow and a bunch of other things. And it kind of.
- [48:42]
A
Her character's name is Esther.
- [48:43]
C
Yes. And it didn't make sense because both. Esther was written as like a kind of nightmare, borderline anti Semitic shrew, which is a theme that runs through the show, which I have to be honest about. Suddenly, in the beginning of season two, Morgan, Sasha and Esther are in a bedroom and they run right at the tension and this confusion of the first season. And it's an incredibly funny and charismatic scene played by three actors who are enjoying themselves and know how to do this. And I relaxed into the show in a way that I never did in the first season. So I really appreciate that competence, especially for something with so many eyes on it.
- [49:22]
A
You know, I felt very similarly. I felt like the first season, I don't really know if I can describe what it was that I think caught so many people by surprise, but also captured their kind of hearts and minds, which was obviously the chemistry between Brody and Belle was a huge thing, but there was also, like. I don't. I don't even know. There was. Was there a little bit of, like, mumble core, kind of like real life in that first season where they're, like, hanging out on a sidewalk and it's an awkward first day. I think that I'm calling it mumblecore, because I just. It felt very approachable in the first season, so.
- [50:04]
C
Also didn't feel like they were making it up as they went along. Maybe.
- [50:07]
A
Maybe that sometimes leads to a feeling of, hey, we don't know we're doing, so we're just kind of finding it as we go, you know, this season felt like everybody had a very fixed job and a very fixed role. And I think I've noticed that most with Brody in the episodes that I've watched. It's sort of weird to talk about, like, sitcoms with, like. With this kind of, like, forensic tone.
- [50:30]
C
Right.
- [50:30]
A
But I don't know how to be like. And then I like this part, and I like this part, but I do Feel like Brody is like, I have to be 75% as charming because there has got to be a chance that we as a couple might not go forward. And if I'm 100% Adam Brody, there's nobody in the world who can resist it. Right. Like so. And, you know, he's kind of holding back a little bit.
- [50:54]
C
Sorry to run all over you. It's just that essentially this show is impossible. And it's a reason why we've talked about this before. You cannot really do rom coms on TV because at a certain point they're just together. And if you break them up, it doesn't make sense for the characters, for the show, for the audience. You're the Worst is the best LA example of a rom com that found a way to broaden its appeal, deepen its story, and run for a long time. But that show's whole conceit was that these people do not belong together. And yet here we are. This show was wonderful because everyone immediately wanted them together. And now what? And so it's as much. It's as compelling to me for the problem solving as it is for the romance in season two. And I don't mind that. So your point about Adam Brody, like, bringing in Alex Karpovsky and then later in the season, from what I understand, Seth Rogen as, like, rival rabbis. Great decision. Lean on your Rolodex, lean on Netflix, lean on the show's popularity.
- [51:53]
A
A character on this season is incredible.
- [51:56]
C
And Arian Moyed from succession. Fucking awesome. Shows up and you're like, oh, great, I want to watch him. And it's. It's a. These are problem solvers. What did you always say in the sports podcast? They're multipliers.
- [52:09]
A
My impression of the way that they did this second season, what happens over the course of the season with Sasha, with Morgan, with Esther, with. And their obvious ability to sort of like, spin the Rolodex and bring in people for the show is that they are kind of future proofing it so that they don't have to nearly break up the central couple every two episodes. And yes, like, Joanne can still be uncomfortable with her conversion and nervous about commitment. And Noah can be like, I can't do this unless she converts. And I am also nervous about commitment. There can be tension, but I don't think you can kind of. You can only have, like, meet me at the. At the Empire State Building kind of moments so many times.
- [52:56]
C
Or what would the equivalent be? The Capitol Records building. What's the. What's the other we're just like, I chase.
- [53:00]
A
She. I'm gonna chase after you and you're. I'm gonna be like, it's always been you. You know, that kind of thing.
- [53:04]
C
Meet me at the abandoned husk of the Arclight. Meet me by Noya House. Recently closed.
- [53:10]
A
Yeah. So anyway, I feel like the way that they are constructing the show is like this could run for several seasons because it doesn't always have to be about whether Noah and Joanne are gonna get married as no.
- [53:24]
C
And.
- [53:24]
A
And the truth is Jews in love.
- [53:27]
C
The more one Jew in love with a non Jew, the other she could convert though. Yeah. It's kind of like this podcast really, if you think about it. Squint. I think people. It's an interesting thing like game planning sitcoms in this era because you have to think about everything in terms of character dynamics and story intention and stakes and season versus season and where we're going. But also you don't overthink it. Like there's a moment in episode two, I think of the season or three when Sasha and Esther are just hanging out and instantly it does something that didn't happen in the first season, which is you understand why these people married each other and it's just a fun hang. And sometimes when you have high quality actors in cute situations, like that's enough, that's fine. And anything above that is bonus is extra. I do think that there's one of the things critiques that I have seen and I want to get your sense about this. I think it. I. I want to give it attention, but also I think it's kind of nonsense, which is all of these people are 10 years too old to play these characters. I. But I think it's probably fine for that reason because they are.
- [54:38]
A
I haven't seen this criticism. So I like people in their 40s should be like. Should know better by then. And they're pretending to be people who are like 33.
- [54:47]
C
These. Yes, these characters are emotionally and professionally early 30s, but they're all played by people in their mid to approaching late 40s. And I wonder if it matters because in LA everybody looks like they're 34. Not us, but we've only recently been forced to go on video. No, give me. Give me a minute. I'm gonna get a lot of work done and you're gonna see. But does. So that doesn't bother you at all?
- [55:10]
A
No, that was. That's not one of the top 10 things that ever jump out at me is like, oh, like when I'm watching television it's pretty rare. Unless somebody is like, I'm Jim Carrey and I'm playing a high schooler, even though I'm like 35. Like, it does. It rarely am. I like, Kristen Bell has no business playing someone who's single.
- [55:29]
C
Like, our. She should be more mature than that.
- [55:31]
A
Yeah, it doesn't bother me. It's tv. Let me hit you up about Chair Company really quick before we go.
- [55:38]
C
All right.
- [55:42]
A
This was the third episode was like a little bit of like, we're at like kind of CRs limit, you know?
- [55:50]
C
Oh. Oh, really? Okay.
- [55:51]
A
Yeah, a little bit like, I, I, I laughed a couple of times. There was some funny stuff, but I was like, what the is this show about? And how many more like, guys are going to be hiding in closets? It's funny, but it was like, you know how sometimes when I, I have this experience. I'm sure you have this experience with me where you're like, oh, yeah, I watch the Chair Company and somebody's just like, isn't it the funniest thing you've ever seen in your life? And I'm like, I, I guess, like, not really. And I'm sure I do that to you. Where I'm like, isn't Landman the most amazing thing you've ever seen? And you're like, it's okay. Tim Robinson, not the same thing. And I do really like Tim Robinson. I really, I really, I think this was more of, like, about the mystery. And I was like, this mystery is not grab, it's not grabbing me, really, I think.
- [56:39]
C
Well, okay, so a couple things. This is the second show in as many weeks that made me feel not like there could ever be another David lynch, but that his lessons are being received. Like, we talked last week about how much we like the Lowdown, and there are just elements of it. There's just flavor sometimes of Twin Peaks in the show in a way that.
- [56:59]
A
Feels respectful, very self consciously with the Agent Cooper stuff.
- [57:02]
C
Yeah. But it didn't feel like pastiche or homage. Just felt like, yeah, I like that. And that's a flavor that I feel comfortable cooking with now. And similarly, the little guy in the closet and just the way he looks at him, which is both terrifying and also deeply funny, reminded me that Twin Peaks was also horrifying and funny, and David lynch found lots of it funny. You know what I mean? It's playing with things that I really respond to, but pivoting them in a different way. I also think that. I know last week I was talking about how I Feel like Tim Robinson and PTA have a lot in common. That was before I even noticed that SNL legend Jim Downey, who was one of the Christmas adventurers, and one battle after another, he's in, plays the dude at Ron Trosper's office who invites people to a making mistakes party. There's a lot of overlap there. But also, I really. I can hold with this show. I love it so much because I'm holding two ideas very, very comfortably in my hands, one of which is, I think that this show is an incredibly insightful and disturbing investigation into everything that's wrong with America. If I could quote Ron Trosper from this episode when he's drinking at the bar while on hold for the fifth hour with. What's the name of the company?
- [58:18]
A
Like Red Ball Holding Management Solutions. Yeah.
- [58:22]
C
So that's playing over and over. He's been on hold for five hours, and he says, and I quote, that's the problem with the world today. People make garbage, and you can't talk to anybody. I want to scream at them. Yeah, that's it, man. That's America.
- [58:35]
A
I'm not saying it's not insightful, perceptive. I'm talking about the actual experience of watching.
- [58:40]
C
But I'm saying I like, that is one red ball that I'm holding in my left hand, and the other red ball is that Chris. This is the funniest thing in the world to me. And so I just have them both. And I'm like, he's cooking. He's cooking with gas right now.
- [58:52]
A
Can I ask you a question? Because you watched a bunch, so I'm caught up now.
- [58:58]
C
I've not watched past.
- [58:59]
A
Oh, so you would watch three. Okay. Because I was wondering if maybe you were like, it gets so good, so it kind of makes it a previous episode, huh? Okay.
- [59:07]
C
It could all fall apart, brother. It could be a Teka chair.
- [59:09]
A
You know what I mean? I'm not trying to yuck your yum. I was just kind of like, maybe. Maybe it was also just, like, long day, a lot of stuff. And then I'm like, let me tuck into a. A couple of laughs from my guy, Tim Robinson. And I was like, dude, I'm not really in the mood for this right now.
- [59:25]
C
You're not in the mood for someone saying, you have to go home and take a shower? Because I could smell you.
- [59:30]
A
Yeah, it was. That was funny.
- [59:31]
C
It was funny. Yeah, it's funny. By the way, I liked earlier, you were like, like, I'm sure that I've said that landman is really good. And you were like, okay, Chris, that was nine episodes of the Watch podcast.
- [59:43]
A
I'm happy to be. I'm here with you every episode of the Chair Company Brother. I'm watching it every week.
- [59:49]
C
Thank you. I appreciate that.
- [59:51]
A
Okay, well, we can wrap it up there. It's great to see you. I want to let you go get some. Some soft broccoli or whatever you got to go eat.
- [59:58]
C
The broccoli doesn't have to be soft. I like soup for many meals. I also enjoy broccoli. Texture wise. We can have a whole other conversation about it, but you are right, it is dinner time and I'm running on fumes.
- [60:08]
A
Okay. Thanks to Andy, thanks to Kaya and Kai. We will be back on Thursday. Lowdown, Slow Horses finale and maybe some down Cemetery Road.
- [60:17]
C
I look forward to Itine adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen the new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you.