The Emmys Mostly Got It Right and ‘Task’ Episode 2

Summary

The Watch – Episode Summary

Title: The Emmys Mostly Got It Right and ‘Task’ Episode 2
Date: September 15, 2025
Hosts: Chris Ryan (A), Andy Greenwald (B)
Podcast: The Watch (The Ringer)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into a comprehensive post-mortem on the 2025 Emmy Awards (aired the previous night), analyzing what the ceremony got right, wrong, and what it portends for the TV industry. The hosts then break down Episode 2 of HBO’s "Task," focusing on character development, storytelling technique, and the intricacies of its Philadelphia setting.

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The Emmys: Winners, Losers, and the State of TV

1. Nate Bargatze’s Host Performance

• Summary: Andy Greenwald, an avowed fan, felt Bargatze's stint was an “all-time worst hosting performance,” describing it as an “epic heat check.”
• Quote: “He clearly thought that he could just show up and be like, ‘Well, I don’t know stuff, and host an award show.’ You can’t do that. You especially can’t do that with the Emmys…” – Andy (02:42)
• Complaint: The charity speech timing “joke” (reducing a donation as speeches ran long) was called “a dumb bit from the beginning,” ultimately undermining the winners’ moments (04:09).

2. A Transitional Moment for Television?

• Discussion of the Emmys’ “end of an era” vibe, with CBS’s recent purchase by Skydance and a sense that the industry landscape is shifting.
• Quote: “I couldn’t help but wonder if we were really saying goodbye more than we were saying hello…” – Chris (07:15)

3. Key Winners and Narrative Shifts

• White Lotus: Shut out due to show fatigue, internal vote-splitting.
  • Quote: “Wildly shut out, although I think it was slightly predictable with a combination of show fatigue.” – Andy (07:56)
• The Pit: Dominated, industry support noted due to its work for LA crews, traditional structure.
  • Quote: “The industry is always going to vote for a show that employs hundreds of people on a soundstage in Los Angeles...” – Andy (12:09)
• Severance: Admired, but described as a “cold show” emotionally—got some acting wins, but not the top drama.
• Adolescence: Praised for form-breaking creativity (“moves the medium forward”), with heartfelt cast reactions.
  • Quote: “That show is art. That show is important. That show is astonishing, jaw-dropping, moves the medium forward and deserves everything.” – Andy (16:43)

4. Other Notable Wins

• Katherine LaNasa (first-time Emmy for "The Pit"); Jeff Hiller for "Somebody Somewhere"—emphasizing importance of “share the wealth” for less mainstream shows (09:33).
• Studio: Won comedy, praised for “ambitious in its aims of being a comedy” (18:44).
  • Quote: “The studio won not just because of industry navel-gazing… it was a comedy that was fully ambitious in its aims of being a comedy.” – Andy (18:44)
• Behind the scenes:
  • Frida Perez’s trajectory from Seth Rogen’s assistant to Emmy-winning producer was highlighted as emblematic of waning “institutional support and growth opportunities” (21:03).

5. Emmys’ Importance and Cultural Legacy

• Discussion on how Emmys impact show longevity more than cultural discourse.
• Quote: “It does matter in terms of the lifespan of shows. It can give them a second chance.” – Andy (25:17)
• “Wire” as precedent for shows beloved despite never winning big awards (26:08).
• Severance positioned as the current Charles Barkley-esque “best show never to win” (27:29).

6. Host Discussion (Who Should Host?) (29:23–32:44)

• Lengthy reflection on the importance of putting in the work (“effort always matters”)
• Tension debating if another stand-up should host; preference for hosts connected to industry/awards show tradition.
• Quote: “I feel like that is… a comparison point to make. Conan announced as the Oscar host. He did the work and delivered a very, very memorable job hosting.” – Andy (31:24)

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‘Task’ Episode 2: “Family Statements” – Deep Dive

1. Overall Impressions

• Chris: Thought it was better than the pilot; credits writer Brad Ingelsby for “making you care about 14 people almost,” even those you dislike (35:58).
• Andy: Praised the show’s “curiosity in every puzzle piece” and small, realistic character beats.
  • Quote: “One of the things that does separate Brad Ingelsby from other writers on TV … he seems to have a genuine curiosity and interest in every puzzle piece that adds up for the larger trauma picture.” – Andy (37:08)

2. Breaking Down Storytelling Technique and Characterization

• Show lauded for real estate devoted to small, human moments (e.g., a plastic Phillies cup’s backstory, “how do you like your pancakes?”).
• Noted contrast to plot-heavy, lore-driven prestige dramas.
• Quote: “There simply isn’t real estate for that kind of small emotional character beat because you’re too busy establishing why Rhaenyra has the right to the throne or whatever…” – Andy (38:01)

3. New Elements and Visual Approaches

• Applauded for the use of photographic/voice-over montage to explain the Dark Hearts motorcycle gang (41:05).
• Cast compared favorably to UK prestige series: “star-making rather than star-affirming” (41:43).

4. Standout Scenes & Subplots

• Maeve’s Moral Quandary:
  • Handling of Robbie’s deception, ensuing ethical dilemma about sheltering Sam (the kidnapped boy).
  • Recognition of her realistic internet searching as “plausibility” in writing (51:20).
  • Impactful drama: “What have you done to us?” – Maeve (53:28)
• DJ Grasanova subplot: Generated fan excitement (“Fujiwara effect” between Hurricane Lizzie and Hurricane Grasanova).
• Task Force Dynamics: Signs of a mole inside both the Dark Hearts and law enforcement; much speculation about who it might be (54:48).

5. Mark Ruffalo’s Performance & Thematic Depth

• Ruffalo’s turn as Tom (ex-priest detective) singled out for subtlety and emotional realism.
  • Quote: “He seemed to collapse inward under the weight of it…An implosion versus an explosion. And it was incredibly memorable for it.” – Andy (59:58)
• Family subplot about trauma and forgiveness contextualizes the episode title “Family Statements.”

6. Philly Details & Atmosphere

• Praise for accurate cultural details: Yuengling over Rolling Rock, local bars, smoking inside, shopping plazas, the “task” force inter-agency dynamic.
• Dialogue peppered with Philly/Eagles humor.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Nate Bargatze’s Hosting:
  “He delivered one of the all time worst hosting performances last night.” – Andy (02:41)

• Industry Changes:
  “I couldn’t help but wonder if we were really saying goodbye more than we were saying hello…” – Chris (07:15)

• On Adolescence:
  “That show is art…moves the medium forward and deserves everything.” – Andy (16:43)

• On The Studio’s Win:
  “The studio won not just because of industry navel-gazing… it was a comedy that was fully ambitious in its aims of being a comedy.” – Andy (18:44)

• On Institutional Support, Frida Perez’s Win:
  “That is how this is supposed to go.” – Andy (21:10)

• On Small Character Beats (“Task”):
  “You write the checks of the character moments so that when you cash them on the set pieces or tension, they just hit harder.” – Chris (35:44)

• On Realism and Human Moments:
  “The show is so much about tone and art direction and vibe…but there is a lot of technique involved here.” – Andy (36:58)

• Ruffalo’s Performance:
  “He seemed to collapse inward under the weight of it…An implosion versus an explosion. And it was incredibly memorable for it.” – Andy (59:58)

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Key Timestamps for Segments

• Emmy Awards Recap & Commentary:
  01:19 – 33:04

  • Bargatze hosting: 02:34 – 06:32
  • Industry/Network changes: 06:32 – 07:56
  • Major winners, show-by-show: 07:56 – 18:44
  • Importance of Emmys: 24:28 – 29:19
  • Hosting debate: 29:23 – 32:44

• ‘Task’ Episode 2 Discussion:
  34:27 – 66:00

  • General impressions: 34:27 – 39:05
  • Dark Hearts & storytelling approach: 39:17 – 44:11
  • DJ Grasanova subplot: 44:39 – 46:09
  • Maeve/Sam dilemma: 46:52 – 53:41
  • Law enforcement/dark hearts moles, bar talk: 53:55 – 56:44
  • Brandis family drama: 57:20 – 59:58
  • Philly flavor, details: Throughout
  • Wrap-up, next week teasers: 62:24 – end

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Episode Tone & Closing Thoughts

• The tone is energetic, conspiratorial, and frequently self-deprecating, matching the hosts’ close rapport and shared Philly roots.
• Engaged analysis combines with tangents (Eagles, Philly bars, craft beer) for authenticity and humor.
• The episode balances Emmy “inside baseball” with accessible, enthusiastic TV criticism.

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Useful For…

• Anyone seeking a sharp, passionate breakdown of the Emmy results—what mattered, what didn’t, and why.
• Fans of "Task" wanting close reading of character, structure, and the show’s regional color.
• Listeners curious about the intersection of TV as an industry, creative medium, and club of weirdos.

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Advertisements, housekeeping, and “scenes from next week” segments have been omitted for clarity.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Packages by Expedia. You were made to occasionally take the hard route to the top of the Eiffel Tower. We were made to easily bundle your trip Expedia Made to travel Flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.

[A]

I need support staff to clear the room.

[B]

Stand up and walk now.

[A]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the Ringer and joining me in the studio, he'll take those crab fries to go in. Sandy green wall.

[B]

So excited to talk about our Emmy winner for most disappointing drama, Kevin Petullo's offense.

[A]

You had it. You got it. And you got the first eagles reference in before me, Greenwald. Today we're talking about the Emmys, which were last night. And we're also talking about the second episode of Task. By the way, you can always email the [e-mail] you can follow us on Instagram at thewatchpod on Instagram, where you'll find that Kaya is just doing amazing stuff with vertical content. Vertical framed video.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And now I have Kai helping. He's me doing something and Kai is now helping. Yeah, he's doing fancy graphics now. That's right. We're really. We're leveling up on the Instagram.

[B]

I also have to say I feel like since you returned from Italy, Kai, you're bringing a certain European sensibility to the aesthetics of the framing.

[A]

You smoking, I don't know, a lot of bank holidays. And also you can watch us on YouTube. Bringer Dash TV is the channel. Or you should watch us on Spotify where you're hopefully also listening to us comment on YouTube. Chris reads them the Emmys an event and I'm ready. And a tradition unlike any other, similar to many others. Similar to all the other award shows. I wanted to go to you first, Andy, because I could tell you're chomping at the bit. Greenwald, I don't even have a question. The Emmys, dot, dot, dot. And you say what I say.

[B]

Everyone here, all three of us, know that I am a big Nate Bargetzi fan.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

I think your comedy is awesome.

[A]

Are you abandoning your child?

[B]

I have watched that last Netflix special multiple times and I would love to see him in person one day doing his clean comedy. I think he's fantastic. I think he delivered one of the all time worst hosting performances last night. And I think the most charitable thing you could say about it is that it is a epic heat check in that he clearly thought that he could just show up and be like, well, I don't know stuff, and host an award show. You can't do that. You especially can't do that with the Emmys, which is maybe even more than any of the other major award shows. Notoriously unwieldy and long and jumps tonally from, you know, Jeff Probst to adolescence.

[A]

Sure. You have to very similar things actually, if you think about it, it's both about survival.

[B]

God, you're. What did you have, what was your, what was your diet this morning? Did you have a lot of caffeine and drinking?

[A]

I think I did.

[B]

This is sharp work. I thought it was incredibly dispiriting and it really had the vibe of a guy who on Instagram was like, thanks LA for the rehearsal. I'm off to Denver for two sold out shows. See you Sunday. It doesn't work. It not only does it not work to be like, I have one joke that sucked about money and costing money, which you know, which he acknowledged in the beginning. This is a funny bit that punishes.

[A]

Explain the bit just for anybody who.

[B]

Maybe people who didn't watch it. His one watching J.J. mcCarthy. Yeah.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Is it? Did you want to watch J.J. mcCarthy?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That guy lost more than Mike White last night. That's crazy. So the bit was that Nate Bargetzi was like, I have. I will donate $100,000. Which by the way, for a guy who is making millions every year, that seemed a little weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, this is the CBS network, which was just purchased for what, like how many billions of years we're gonna get to that?

[A]

Yeah. It was not just. Well, the CBS was purchased. Yes.

[B]

My point is $100,000 to the boys and Girls Club of America. But for every speech that goes over 45 seconds, we will begin a countdown where Every second is $1,000 away from the donation. But every second you don't use is puts it back in the plus column. This was a dumb bit from the beginning that always was going to end up with them being like, oh, our good friends at CBS are going to make this hole anyway and make a nice donation. It punished the people who won awards who maybe will never do this again, and made it about their love of children and charity as opposed to their shining moment. It also weirdly did. What's the reverse of rewarding. Oh, I mean, of punishing. It rewarded presenters for talking too long.

[A]

Oh yeah. I mean the Brad Garrett, Ray Romano bit that went on seemingly for like seven minutes.

[B]

Jennifer Coolidge is still talking. Yeah, that was just. It was bad when it was suggested. It was bad throughout. That was his only contribution to the humor of the evening. He didn't have any other jokes, he didn't have any material. And his bit that he's not really familiar with how television works or the industry was especially poorly timed when I have to say, looking at the list of winners, a remarkably good story could have been told about the health of the industry and about the health of television in general. And it was in a wild generational bag. Fumble for the TV industry not to take advantage of that. Every year we talk about how the Oscars do something that I kind of hate, but now I do understand why they do it, which is movies. Am I right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Remember movies with horses called westerns? Remember space movies? We laugh at movies. And the whole subtext of the night is watch movies. You like them. Remember last night's whole thing of like Reba McEntire singing the Golden Girls theme song. But God forbid the ascendant star of adolescence, this 15 year old kid can talk for more than 40 seconds while charming the room. Fuck out of here. That sucked. A good night for television, but an awful broadcast.

[A]

How much did you feel like this was a. I don't know, like almost like an end of an era. A fin de sicle, if you will. Oh, where I was thinking about how this is now. This was. The Emmys were broadcast on cbs, which is recently purchased by Skydance.

[B]

It.

[A]

One of the big shows of the night was the Pit, which is on HBO Max, which might get recently purchased by Skydance.

[B]

That is end time stuff.

[A]

You know, there was this strange.

[B]

Kind.

[A]

Of like huge ups, you know, swelling of appreciation for Stephen Colbert obviously. And he won for best variety show, I believe at the end or towards.

[B]

The end of the talk show.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, best talk show. And gives this rousing speech and I love this country now more than ever and everybody's standing and shouting, Steven, Steven. And I just. I felt like Carrie Bradshaw voice. I couldn't help but wonder if we were really saying goodbye more than we were saying hello to like maybe. Even. Even if it's just a construction of television. Even if it's just like there won't be as many, you know, platforms next year or two years from now or whatever. There seems to be something in the air. But, you know, by that same token, like you said, I do think it was a really good night for the health of the industry and the swath of projects that get recognized.

[B]

And, you know, White Lotus was wildly shut out, although I think it was slightly predictable with a combination of show fatigue. It was not necessarily the most popular season.

[A]

Well, they had to go against tougher.

[B]

Competition, too, and they all get nominated, so they cancel each other out. Like that happened category after category.

[A]

It was strange how by the end it was like, oh, it has no chance.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, by the end of the broadcast, it was like, this is going to be the pit.

[B]

That seemed. I mean, first of all, kudos to us. I think we did get any prediction we made. I think we got right, including our dream heave from mid court for Catherine Lanasa because of the White Lotus cancellation effect, which is awesome, by the way. What a fascinating life. There was a profile of her in the New York Times a week or two ago that was really cool. But can you name, like, I don't. Maybe, you know, because you've been paying attention. But I think an incredible game would be can you name her three spouses?

[A]

Dennis Hopper, all of whom are actors. Grant Snow.

[B]

Show.

[A]

Show.

[B]

He was not a bastard from the north. He was on Melrose Place. Let's all. Let's, let's. Let's ratchet it down.

[A]

The bastard. Grant Snow. Oh, who's the third?

[B]

You will never guess. He was a. He's a popular television actor of the 90s.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you will never guess. So we shouldn't even do this.

[A]

Tell me.

[B]

French Stewart.

[A]

Oh, right. Really?

[B]

I made that same face for the same reason.

[A]

Good for him.

[B]

I know. Yeah, I know.

[A]

Boy, she's just like, what a life. A Zelig.

[B]

Yeah. And she's awesome on this show. And like, you almost don't want to lead with the bad broadcast because Katherine Lanassa winning for the show six months ago. This is an impossibility. A year ago, it was an impossibility. Jeff Hiller winning for somebody somewhere, a show that we, like, admire kind of didn't cover. I didn't watch the last season. He's wonderful in it. And like, that's what these award shows ought to be. It should be a. You know, unlike the Eagles, a share the wealth offense where lots of people get touches and him winning that award means a lot more, I think for him, for his career, for that show than the wonderful in everything he does. Colman Domingo. I would love it if Colman Domingo won, but I feel like Jeff Hiller winning is more significant.

[A]

It's also pretty awesome. I don't want to take anything away from Severance, which is so that I think I have more time for than you do. But like obviously is a beloved and, you know, scrutinized and hotly anticipated show. Brit Lauer won for drama actress and Tramelle Tillman won supporting actor. So it did go away with some awards and I think it did win some at the creative Arts. But I think that the giving it to the Pit, even though there's not like a Borg hive mind decision to do this because of this reason, with the Pit coming back in January.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And now the Pit can run a promotional campaign that says the Emmy decorated show of the year returns again in January. Whereas like you give it to Severance and then it's like, see you in 28, brother.

[B]

Maybe. Yeah. Look, take my own opinions about the show out of it. Tramiel Tillman is awesome.

[A]

He is.

[B]

It was a great win. Well deserved. Beautiful speech, great suit. Britt Lauer is also really, really good on the show. That was, that was a surprise. I think people thought Kathy Bates was going to win. But did you see that Brit had.

[A]

The, the piece of paper that said let me out on the back when she was reading her.

[B]

She got all excited. You fire up Reddit. I did. Saw that. I did. Do you think she meant please get me out of the show hell, because I'd like to do something else before 2037? No, I don't think that's what it meant either. I thought them winning was fantastic and deserved the reason why Severance didn't. I don't. We were very confident that the Pit was going to win. You could write that off to our bias about what we preferred. That's not why I thought it was going to win. You can already see some post broadcast commentary of like, oh, well, the relationship that the audience or the voters have with the Pit is a, that's a hot show in terms of like, I actively love these people and want to watch it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Severance is a cold show. I mean, in many ways, but specifically, like, I admire it, but I don't love it. And sometimes it takes a little bit of stretching before I can really sit down and commit to it. That's part of it. But I genuinely believe what it comes down to is the fact that the industry is always going to vote for a show that employs hundreds of people on a soundstage in Los Angeles that gives them yearly work over a show that films. Is that why you think sometimes in New York, every three years or so.

[A]

Is that why you think that traditionally, like, there have been more rubber stamp winners over the course of, like, it's.

[B]

Just like, I think you could make that argument that there is a crew. I mean, like Colbert was making that point when he was saying, like about. About being unemployed. He wasn't really thinking about himself. He was talking about his crew. Have had a 10 year gig. These things don't exist anymore. And especially, you know, they're getting more and more rare. I think that that is an industry vote as much as it is a critical vote for the Pit over severance. And I was not surprised that it won, but I think there is a reason to be like, holy shit. Because when the show premiered, there was some. Remember when we talked about it? Well, Netflix has its ER coming too. Nobody really knew what it was. But then when you see it play out like this, I mean, Noah Wiley had never won an Emmy until it appeared on the Watch podcast.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Great moment for him. He was fantastic on. It was a fantastic speech.

[A]

It was great for the comedy stuff. I wanted to just ask whether you felt like the studio won because of a exhaustion, an exhaustion with bear versus hacks. Is the bear comedy stuff, right? Or did the studio win because kind of like what you're saying? Hollywood loves to see a. Either reflection or affirmation of its mission and that this was just a show that everybody got behind because of a kind of what it said about the town and what it said about, like, the people who live here.

[B]

I think it's more that. And the reason why is because hacks still swept the acting categories. Jean Smart and apparently Birds fan Anna Einbinder won.

[A]

Oh, notorious Birds fan.

[B]

I didn't know. She has many interests as she expressed on the broadcast, so it's hard to pin her down. Clearly there is a lot of love for that show still in the industry. The bear, I don't think was part of the conversation. Not just because it was shut out last night, but this was, you know, there was confusion because the show was yearly and so like Liza Colonias Colon winning last year for a season in which she wasn't as featured as she was in the season that had premiered.

[A]

By then where she had had her takeout episode In.

[B]

Right, sorry. It's Liza Colon Zayas. I apologize. She. Last night was the. She was nominated for the season that had the episode napkins that she was amazing in, and it did not even seem like she was gonna. It was clear that she was not gonna win that award.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that the version of the debate that we've had about the bear, not as a comedy or not in relation to other shows, has settled into the industry, which is. This was two seasons. This is not a full season of show spread out over two seasons. And it's not funny. And the. The trauma drama that was alluded to in the actually kind of funny Philo Farnsworth opening bit is not really worth the squeeze at this time. I don't think it was even considered.

[A]

Okay, couple. Oh, I want to talk about adolescence, because on the flip side of the Pit, which does, in a lot of ways, a very traditional thing where especially the length of the season, it's quick turnaround for another season. It's a Holly. It's a hospital procedural, which is a sort of a procedural. Well, I guess it is very much a procedural. It's just not like the way we usually approach those things. It is very traditional. In some ways. Adolescence is the kind of, like, form breaking, highly cinematic, incredibly creative act that I think got us fired up about this era of television in the first place. And I got a Mittman Lake. I still could. I could not be fucking happier for a group of people than like, the people who made adolescence winning for that.

[B]

And Aaron Duckney, Stephen Graham, obviously, they.

[A]

I know that it's stupid to judge things off of people's reactions to winning.

[B]

No.

[A]

But when you make something like that, I think it's a testament to the power of the thing that you made when everybody else around you and everybody worked on it is so fucking pumped up that it won. So to see when Stephen Graham won, you know, Ashley Walters just, like, basically climbing over three rows to, like, hug him is really cool.

[B]

I think, first of all, he's incredible. What a, like, creative dynamo. That show is art. That show is important. That show is astonishing. Jaw dropping, moves the medium forward and deserves everything. And again, like, it's worth taking a moment to say, like we said last week, like, did the viewers watch it? Is it a tough watch? No. People understood the brief that you watch something and you recognize greatness. And that was fantastic to see. One of my favorite moments of the night was watching Colin Farrell react to Stephen Graham winning. He seemed happier than Stephen Graham, which is really sweet and some People thought that Colin Farrell was the favorite in that it did just feel like it was.

[A]

I don't even know if I noticed that. What did he do?

[B]

He was thrilled.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

He's. He's the best. He was just so happy for a guy that he clearly has known for a long time and feels like he deserved it. And it wasn't really. This was one of those categories where I don't think you could get into the like, oh, did people prefer this? Or was there gamesmanship or, you know, strong arming for Netflix's power in the marketplace? Look, these other shows were good, but they were up against a creative and critical juggernaut.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which absolutely, absolutely deserved to win. And by the way, I understood what Elizabeth Banks was saying about. It was remarkable that 80% of the category of directing for limited series, the nominees were women. But that felt almost unfair to Philip Berentini, who, I mean, he did something that no one has ever done. Beat a field of four women. No, he. I apologize. But he directed a series that was all oners. Yeah. And made it artful and not show offy. And he deserved. He deserved to win. Now, there's a secondary argument about, like, why really good directors like Jennifer Getzinger or Helen Shaver are directing episodic penguins, which was fine. As opposed to having incredible bravura opportunities.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's not an argument that's going to be litigated. Last night I did want to. We skipped over the comedy thing. I did just want to say about the studio. The studio is great. The studio won not just because of industry navel gazing. I think it also won because it was a comedy that was fully ambitious in its aims of being a comedy. I think a lot of the other shows that separate themselves from the pack, like the reason why Hacks has won many times or the Bear one before that. Whereas a more joke driven show like what we do in the shadows hasn't is because ambition is coded as being a little more dramatic. And the studio takes the ambition and the budget and the opportunity and goes all in on being comedy, which I think matters. And it's nice to have a little differentiation between the categories in that regard.

[A]

I think when I first saw the studio pilot, which was back in March, I was like, it is also going to be a show that tips towards the dramatic. That's satire. Sometimes so black it's not funny or melancholic. Yeah, right. But instead it became much more gag oriented, kind of, you know, very smart gags, like this parking space Bit is gonna go on. And it was closer maybe to Curb than it was to the Player, you know, which I think is fine and.

[B]

I think is also sustainable and a smart reflection of. Yeah, exactly. The material. Like that's an ongoing comedy series. What they did the first episode, which was the one that was the most nominated was a statement. And then they lived in the wreckage basically of that statement going forward. I also want to say, like, I do not. I've never crossed paths with Seth Rogen. I'm a huge fan. I don't know his work process. This is all anecdotal, but people say he's a wonderful guy to work with and it's like a really good creative vibe with him and Evan Goldberg. Frida Perez, who won. So we talked about this when we were talking about the show. Right. That it seemed notable and rare that all of the executive producers of the show, everyone who wrote episodes, were all credited as co creators.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That seems very democratic and generous. You saw that on stage last night, where the five of them or six of them all got up there. They made a moment of Frida Perez, one of the creators, being the first Latina to win as a producer in that category. I didn't know her story that she started as Seth Rogen's assistant.

[A]

I didn't know that.

[B]

And then was promoted to writer and then contributed to like the movies that he's made and is now a co creator. And I was like, that is how this is supposed to go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is what the industry. That is a good relic of the industry that the studio mourns, that he is trying to pay forward. And I thought that was really nice. A lot of the internal industry drama and the strikes and things. One of the inciting incidents is that lack of institutional support and growth opportunities and all that. Yeah.

[A]

There was just an article, I think it was in Hollywood Report Reporter about like the state of product pas in.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In town. And how it used to be this first rung of the ladder that you would sort of start to climb up and if you were going to do, you know, you could obviously shadow a bunch of people and just decide, like, am I going to be a PA and go towards production or am I going to go towards working in a studio or am I going to go try and work for this director's production company or whatever. And now it's kind of like it's just a carousel that goes round and round and round and work is so hard to come by, especially in la and it's hard to Live in LA anyway. That it's just become like an almost impossible job.

[B]

Yes. And so it's. It was nice to see him practice. Not even what he preaches, just practicing good behavior in the industry and good and giving opportunities.

[A]

The one thing I wanted to ask you is do you think that Dan Gilroy is going to lord his Emmy over Tony Gilroy?

[B]

This is exactly what I have up to.

[A]

So to set.

[B]

Set this up and explain it.

[A]

One writing which was very much like a. Like there is. It was nice to know that any of the people in that crowd had like watched andor basically.

[B]

And like, as you like to say, the ball knowers knew.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That was classic. Like Tarantino has won Emmys, but for writing. Because that's the category that they'll reward the thing that's a little bit outside of the box. Oscars. Yeah, sorry. Oscars. Yes.

[A]

I was like, did he win an.

[B]

Emmy for writing csi for his appearance on Golden Girls?

[A]

That's right. They. And. Or won best writing in a drama series. Right. For welcome to the Rebell. And Dan Gilroy is the writer of that. Writer of that episode. I would imagine that Tony Gilroy had some input on that episode.

[B]

And that's fair to say.

[A]

It stays in the family. And I'm sure at Thanksgiving they'll just put it in the middle and be like, it's for everybody.

[B]

I feel like the vibe I get from the Gilroys is that they will not do that. And that will be the conversation.

[A]

Tony, let us know. You know what I mean? Like, come on the watch and tell me about. Tell us all about visitation rights for that Emmy.

[B]

It was good big brother behavior. Like it is genuinely Tony modeling good showrunner behavior. Even though this was his first time being a showrunner. He is. Everybody understands. He is the creator. He is the showrunner. He is the last one to touch the pages that go out. He's the last one in the edit. He was messing. He was co composing the score like that's his baby. Both seasons he divvied up the writing among his writers, where he took credit for three episodes only of each season and the rest were farmed out. And everyone basically wrote an arc this season. It just so happened that his brother Dan, who is an accomplished screenwriter and director in his own right, wrote what is pretty much uniformly agreed upon as the best episode of the series, which won. So that was very cool and very gracious. He won. He thanked his brother. He thanked Genevieve O'Reilly, who should have been nominated, which I thought was cool. But Again, it's hard to nitpick. When Andor did win on Thursday, I was like, you know, the nomination was the reward.

[A]

I just. I'm not gonna get upset about this stuff. It's not like when we talk about television twice a week for the last decade plus, we do not talk about, like, Emmy winners. We just don't. And I don't ever hear anywhere else besides in Los Angeles is people being like, well, I know that that won an Emmy, you know, and it. It's just not a barometer of what people are watching and what's important about television.

[B]

No, but it does. If you are a fan of tv, that might not be mainstream or even Matlock. Like, there is an argument to be made that hacks being a glorified, celebrated show that will wrap up in style after its fifth season, which I think Hannah Einbinder confirmed last night, there's no guarantee that it would have had that opportunity had it not started winning Emmys from its first season.

[A]

Totally agree.

[B]

It does matter in terms of the lifespan of shows. It can give them a second chance. And I do think in terms of the.

[A]

I just think about the discourse around, like, what people say when they're talking about how great Andor is or how great severance is. It's not like, well, I liked severance, but it didn't win any Emmys.

[B]

No. But I wonder if in this more. More stratified streaming era, do you think it means more or matters more to the creators? Because, like. But like, 20 years ago, like, I'm.

[A]

Sure it matters to some creators, and for some, it's just like, I don't give a shit.

[B]

No, but what I mean is, like, it felt like maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is just hindsight, but, like, so the Wire never won any major awards, but it was in a media ecosystem where it was almost punk that it didn't win the awards. Yeah, but like, David Simon was like.

[A]

When the Wire was on for the first two seasons of the Wire, it definitely felt like the people who loved the Wire were, like, keeping it on life support.

[B]

You. Yeah, no, but like, it was you.

[A]

There was two or three. Is the Wire coming back? Runs. And through season three? Through season three, it was like, I don't know if they're going to bring it back. I don't know if they're going to bring it back. And then obviously, it kind of entered into a more of a like, Peabody Award winning the best television has to offer kind of.

[B]

Which used to be an argument you could make for Survival.

[A]

And then that got it to its fourth and fifth season.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I wonder whether or not that is even a thing anymore. But I mean I know that HBO thinks it's a thing and I think of any shows FX thinks it's a thing.

[B]

Are there any shows that you can think of that fall into the Charles Barkley zone of like uniformly recognized as one of the best ever but never won the title? Because if you go back through like all the shows other than the Wire. Other than the Wire. Because if you go through, you know, the sort of consensus, greatest shows, they all won. Whether it's er, the West Wing, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Sopranos, they all had their turn. Even Game of Thrones had its. Had its turn.

[A]

Friday nights win anything?

[B]

No. But I feel like that's not ever in. It's in the most beloved conversation but the like. And so the reason I bring it up is because for something like Severance, which has a case to be made.

[A]

That it is the 000 over 1.

[B]

Let me check on that. Maybe we can google that while I finish this thought that there's a case to be made that Severance is the inheritor of that legacy right now in terms of a prestige water cooler mystery box show that is driving conversation, that is making stars noticeable again. That when we talked about the show coming on the air we were using salary cap analogies that if you have Stiller and Christopher Walken and Turturro and Patricia Arquette in your cast, you're going to need to fill out your young defense with your Tramell Tillmans and your Britlowers. They won. So that was much like we won the super bowl last year with a young defense that worked out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? But so this is. If this show is the inheritor of that mantle in such a bifurcated what is really popular world, having the proof, historical proof that the industry agreed that this was the best drama might be more significant for a Severance than at any other time in history. For a time it could be right.

[A]

And I think I would feel more strongly about it if I thought it was coming back within any like within this Trump administration, you know.

[B]

Well, this one could be ongoing.

[A]

No, that's what I meant. Like this particular one. The third one. Maybe not.

[B]

Oh, so you think that we're going to recognize it as the beginning of the third term as opposed to just rolling era.

[A]

You know, it's like an emperor ship.

[B]

So cute. You think there's going to be an election, sweetie. But. But but anyway, that argument is almost moot because one thing I feel confident saying is that there will be as many seasons of. I mean, there will be a third season of severance. There will probably be a fourth season of severance. That's just the way Apple works, where they. It's working for them. They like it. They like the prestige. They like, they had a big party. Tim Cook was there at the Emmys last night. It's not living season to season or like, oh, did we get a Peabody? Okay, we'll greenlight it.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So who knows what the argument is?

[A]

Let's take a quick break here. Unless you had any final Emmy's thoughts.

[B]

Who should host next year? I just, just.

[A]

It'd be very funny if Stephen Colbert hosted. Sure, he's free.

[B]

Like, I just want to say that, like the hosting, I feel like it's just crazy we're still having these arguments. Hosting matters.

[A]

It matters. But does it matter for the first seven minutes? Is it really just about the opening monologue? Do you think a host has any responsibility of like time of show and like run of show?

[B]

Time of show? No, but how you feel about the time of show or the run of show or. There have been moments.

[A]

There's this hard thing. Like there is a world in which Tramelle Tillman would be a very good host, but not enough people know who that is. Yeah, that's not somebody you can put on advertisements and be like, the guy from Severance is hosting or something like that. Where I just like trying to think of like someone who's like, I actually have benefited directly from the Emmys recognizing talent. I am a lovely man who can apparently a five tool player who can both run a submarine and also a marching band.

[B]

I thought you were pitching to the Jeff Hiller hosting.

[A]

No, I just mean like I. Or the idea that there is no host. But it's like, you know, groups of actors. But like I, if you. I honestly think like every time you pick a stand up to do it, you're just tossing a coin. Mulaney could have hosted and had similarly, like.

[B]

Mulaney has a different relationship. He loves show business. His whole career is a love letter to the different facets of show business.

[A]

Yes, but he loves like weird Conan and Letterman and like public access television. And like, does he like, like song and dance? Like sing for your supper?

[B]

Shit, yes. He loves musical theater. Did you watch the documentary now or his sack lunch?

[A]

I did. I'm not getting into a debate about whether or not. I just think that like this is.

[B]

The most spirited argument we've had in three and a half years. Don't tap out there.

[A]

Who do you want to host the.

[B]

I just want to say this, that the biggest example, evidence of what I'm trying to express here is so mad.

[A]

That Nate didn't crush.

[B]

I'm furious. I love that kid, that underdog. I did put a lot of stuff being funny. He is funny. Yeah, he's. Wow.

[A]

He's fine. He's good.

[B]

You're gonna lord this over me, huh? One of the nominees for Variety Special was the Oscars, as it often is, but it was the Oscars that Conan hosted. And I feel like that is an exact. That's a. That's. That's a comparison point to make. Conan announced as the Oscar host. There's a little bit like, well, why is he hosting the Oscars? He's hasn't really been in any movies. What is his relationship to this industry? Is it just going to be like when Letterman did it, you know, 20 plus years ago, Conan did the work and delivered a very, very memorable job hosting. So much so that he's already hosting next year's. Like, you got to work to do that job. Not just bring your job that you're very good at to a room full of people who are like, what are you doing here? And I think that, like, when Kimmel's hosted the Oscars, when it. When there was the crazy La La Land thing that happened, and it cuts to him. He's ready to meet the moment. Yeah.

[A]

Would Nate Bargazzi have been able to handle that?

[B]

No, he said he.

[A]

If they were like, severance. Wait, the Pit. What would Nate do?

[B]

He's like, I'm just. I just got here. This is so weird. Y' all invited me here. I gotta go. Like, I don't. You know what I mean? Like, that bit didn't translate to this. Now, I don't know if he cares about that particularly, but it just. I'm offended because what I like to see Chris in podcasts or in award show is his effort, and I think he tanked it, and I think he's waking up.

[A]

That's why you love the tush push, I think.

[B]

Oh, you mean in football games or just like, as a. Just like, good job out there in the studio today. Like, Bill's out there just slapping everybody on the way out the door. Yeah.

[A]

Some of your favorite Hell's Kitchen bars.

[B]

Yeah. All right, well, a good night for tv, but a bad broadcast.

[A]

All right, let's take a break, and we'll come back and do task. This episode is brought to you by Pretty Litter. Living with more than one cat means you've got double the cuddles and double the litter duty. But Pretty Litter makes things so much easier. Not only does it control odors and last longer than other litter, it also keeps you ahead of health issues. The color changing crystals actually flag fluctuations in your cat's urine. How about that? Plus Pretty Litter ships free right to your door. So no heavy bags to carry and no last minute pet store runs right now. Save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy at PrettyLitter.com watch that's PrettyLitter.com watch To save 20% on your first order, get a free cat toy. Prelud.com watch Pretty Litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[A]

Task Talk let's go Week two right here. You were all fired up about Nate Bargazi. I need that same energy when it comes to crab fries.

[B]

Do you think that Casey Bloy's famous Pennsylvanian that he is intentionally scheduled task to run week with week with the Eagles season. So week two of task is week two of the season.

[A]

This is an incredible point.

[B]

Do you think he did that on where's the bye week? I would. Oh boy. That's a really good question. I think that what if task took.

[A]

A week off if the Eagles what.

[B]

If task ends right. The only reason I know and I feel comfortable saying this is that if we had Kasey on the podcast right now and asked him this point blank, he would say eagles are football. Right? Like that is what Casey would say.

[A]

That's not what he would say. 100% go birds. Come on.

[B]

He would say he would be for us. But we've discussed Philly sports with him and that's not, you know, he likes jumping in quaries.

[A]

I know that you watched this episode during the daytime. Yeah, I don't remember early morning and that that affected your maybe mindset while watching it slightly. I thought that this was even better than the pilot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This one's called Family Statements. It's written by Englesby and directed by Jeremiah Zagar. Again, it's written by Brad Inglesby and directed by Jeremiah Zagar. Yeah, I got it right this time.

[B]

Hard.

[A]

Sorry, Jeremiah. And I don't know, I feel like you write the checks of the character moments so that when you cash them on the set pieces or tension, like, they just hit harder.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's. That's what Inglesby does for me up there with the best, where it's like, I'm going to make you care about 14 people almost. I mean, we have so many groups now, like, all these, like, little cliques within the show. And even if you fucking hate the guys in the dark hearts, you're like, well, it seems like Jay and Perry are an intense duo, and I am now, like, pretty locked in.

[B]

Yeah. They practice politics the right way. What'd you think of the episode? I. I loved it. I. You were right. And I appreciate you pointing out that it is challenging to. We have screeners. We're lucky to have them. I watched the show early, before the Eagles came. A bad episode of a show in the wrong context could really set me off. This was so good that I was drawn in, and I actually found myself wishing I had blackout curtains because it just did not meet the moment of the show. But I was still completely riveted. I like a lot what you're saying about how you. This show is so much about tone and art direction and vibe, and it's sunken in and the cigarettes and the beer, and you feel it. But there is a lot of technique involved here, and I'm glad that you started with that, because I was thinking about. One of the things that does separate Brad Ingoldsby from other writers on TV at the moment is that he seems to have a genuine curiosity and interest in every puzzle piece that adds up for the larger trauma picture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I did not know we were going to get the backstory of the plastic fillies cup that has vodka in it. Now, for example, I did not know that we would spend time discussing where the imprisoned brother ran after his ill fated attempt to play. Was it lacrosse or was it field? It's lacrosse, right?

[A]

Yes. When he was. Nobody passed him the ball during a lacrosse game. And then he had just, like, stormed off, broke a car window, and vanished for several hours, only to turn up, like, in the dugout of a field.

[B]

Which then becomes a. Which becomes plot later when Tom knows where to find his daughter. Even an almost tiny moment like how Sam likes his pancakes is just a question when Robbie asks him that. That's just not a question you're used to hearing now. I think there's a side argument to be made that the way most big ticket TV shows are constructed and made these days, there just simply isn't real estate for that kind of small emotional character beat. Because you're too busy establishing why Rhaenyra has the right to the throne or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, I don't even mean it as a drive by. I mean that these shows have different purposes.

[A]

She's on a dragon. You're not really going to get her with a drive by.

[B]

That's true. She's going to win.

[A]

Driving by a little electric car being like, bing, bing.

[B]

Oh, down to 48%. Better pull over and charge. I'll never make it to King's Landing this way. And no more federal credit for my good work.

[A]

So you believe it.

[B]

I did things the right way.

[A]

Should have watched Landman a little bit more attentively anyway.

[B]

I just feel like his interest and curiosity in those details is what makes this so much more than the sum of its already impressive parts.

[A]

Obviously there's a lot of things from this episode to break down. Ruffalo's a really gorgeous moment talking about what happened to his family. Not gorgeous maybe isn't the right word.

[B]

But easier to talk about forgiveness when it's not your loss.

[A]

Yeah, it's very emotionally trenchant and you know, the introduction and really like immersion into the world of the motorcycle club, the Dark Hearts who are kind of outside of, you know, this sort of two sides of a coin Robbie Tom thing going on. They are the overarching villains of the the series. And I think it's really cool to get like an insight into the internal dynamics of it. Like that there is like a national mother club or network that runs these local chapters and that Perry has helped Jay usurp someone to take over. But now Jay's like hot headedness or lack of attention to detail may cost them.

[B]

Can I ask you just sidebar question here? How did you feel about the break in storytelling aesthetics for that sequence to.

[A]

Go away from one of the two people? You mean?

[B]

No. Oh no. That's actually another good question that I should have asked you. But specifically when we were getting the download on how the Dark Hearts operate. Oh, and call the pictures and stuff, sound footage, photos.

[A]

I thought that was awesome.

[B]

Narrating it through.

[A]

I thought that was good. I feel like. And I think that it's good to see the show not be done trying stuff after one hour.

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

And I think a lot of things, because you wind up having, like, a producing director who sets the tone and kind of makes the rules for the visual language of a show. Often you'll get kind of rote, like, hey, I got to follow the. The playbook from what we. From what we have. You know, and it was cool to see. I mean, obvious Zagar is directed both of those episodes, so maybe we'll get more of that stuff to follow. But I thought it was neat to have, like, it's a pretty darkly lit show. To have, like, this is this guy and this is what he does is a little bit.

[B]

Is pretty effective, especially because, again, this is something I want to check in with you if you had the same experience that I did. But Jason is the middle manager of the Dark Hearts, who may be in a bit of a pickle here.

[A]

Okay, right.

[B]

Is that who he is? He's. He's the guy who wakes up in bed and gets the call, and then the other guy's like, I put you in. The guy who's giving me Greg from White Lotus vibes, but isn't him.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

So that's Perry.

[A]

That's Perry.

[B]

And Perry says, put Jason in this position. Right, Jason.

[A]

Jason.

[B]

So Jason is an. Casting is just unreal in this, and we have to talk about that. But this guy is an Irish actor. I don't have his name in front of me. We can look it up.

[A]

Sam Kelly.

[B]

Sam Kelly. Another just like task is. I'm not just saying this because most of the people in the cast seem to be from Ireland and the United Kingdom. It is cast like a British show in the sense that you just feel like these are the best people for the job and they are unrecognizable if we've ever seen them before. And they are pouring themselves into it. And it is star making rather than star affirming. But anyway, that actor Sam Keighley has Robbie sad eyes and he looks kind of like Tom Pelfrey.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I at first was like, is this his brother who we've been talking about? And then I believe the television show informed us that Jason actually beat Robbie's brother to death.

[A]

It's implied. Yeah.

[B]

And that Maeve knows about this. Right. But did you have a similar confusion momentarily, or do you feel like there's intention in the fact that these broken men all look related in some way?

[A]

I think that it's probably more about the idea that, like, that's just the way that guys look who do stuff like that.

[B]

Is it, like, not like us?

[A]

No, I mean, I just. But they're built. They have hats, like, they. They have.

[B]

I'm wearing shirts, you don't know, with.

[A]

Their, like, hands all day or whatever.

[B]

Like, if I took my shirt off, it would just say the watch, but with the same illustration we have, but just your half of your face.

[A]

And then you'd be covering up a Nate Bargazi tattoo on your chest.

[B]

It's going to take years.

[A]

Can I say Mulaney instead of Bargazi? It didn't bother me. I think in the trailer, in the teaser especially, there's a shot of Jason, and it looks like in the shot of him on the motorcycle, you're like, is that Pelfrey?

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I didn't have the problem in the show. Sorry, what was I gonna say about that?

[B]

I completely took you off guard. You were talking about Perry, and you were sort of giving us the background, I think, of some of the dark heart scenes. Yeah.

[A]

And that was a good question about, like, the.

[B]

I interrupted you twice.

[A]

We're really just like, let's break down what we just said.

[B]

Let's diagram it. Can we get the whiteboard up?

[A]

Because if Chris said this, then Annie made a joke, but then Chris made a joke inside that joke.

[B]

Then it was third and 15, and we hand it off for no reason.

[A]

We were like, field position, baby. Oh, I remember. I was gonna say.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you. Good.

[A]

Margarita Levva. That's his. That's Jason's girlfriend in the. In the show.

[B]

Damn. See, not recognizing people that I genuinely like all the time.

[A]

Turn the brightness up.

[B]

In my defense, I watch the screener, which is notoriously like, where should I look? HBO screeners are so dark.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do you remember watching the screeners? This is a rich problem, but like the episode of Game of Thrones where the Night King comes to Winterfell and the entire thing is dark. I basically just guessed.

[A]

You were like, is that the guy from the Dark Hearts?

[B]

I had no idea what was going on.

[A]

Bargazi.

[B]

I was just riffing at that point.

[A]

Okay. I thought that just getting, like, a little peek into that was fantastic. And then what I was going to say about those character moments, just to kind of loop back to that, was we didn't get much action, but the way you spend time with people. And many, many, many, many people have reached out to us to discuss DJ Grasanova already. Yes. I will read a note from an email from our listener, Patrick. Shocking development with Hurricane Lizzie this Week there's this phenomenon called the Fujiwara effect, where two tropical storms that get close together begin rotating around each other. Usually this ends in the two storms either merging or one dying off and making the other storm stronger. I think we've got a Fujiwara situation developing between Hurricane Lizzie and Hurricane Grassanova. Can't wait to see how this develops.

[B]

And this guy's got it.

[A]

And I, I, I just felt it between Fabian Frankel and Allison Oliver in that room talking about DJ Grasanova touring the Catholic school mixer, playing Florida, playing Flo Rida really freaked me out that that was. If it's Flo Rida's whistle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That means this character was in high school in 2012.

[B]

Yes. Well, she says her Yahoo name is from 2012.

[A]

That's fucked up. We're so old.

[B]

Look, aren't you happy to see a government run group that's not a gerontocracy? Like you have to let the young people cook.

[A]

Yes, that's true.

[B]

We have to do it.

[A]

That's true. My point is like, that moment is just so funny and it's so endearing. You just immediately feel closer to both of those characters, even though they don't get a lot of screen time, even though they haven't done a lot of stuff. Obviously Lizzie is like, got a little bit of a touch with this stuff, even though she's clearly distracted by her music and her life. And Grasso is, is, you know, probably thinking about ascending some sort of ladder here. I mean, this seems like what he wants to do, but their connection is going to make whatever happens over the next couple of episodes, and I have not watched ahead, but you can see in the trailers, there's shootouts, there's people being upset. Like I'm gonna be there emotionally with them.

[B]

Do you want to do your McBain Live Forever rankings on the task force?

[A]

Because I've got a clear number one.

[B]

I'm not, let's not say it. We just might be blasting some fluorida. I feel like In Memoriam sooner rather than later. That's my, that's my guess. I don't like that. I'm sorry. I like that. I'm not watching the head. But first of all, what a redemption tour for Ser Criston Cole. He's is really good in this episode. Not just in that scene, but the scene where he's talking about religion with Tom and like, what never made sense to him about, you know, eating. Was it eating meat on Fridays? I thought that was a great scene.

[A]

Why can't I have a slice of pepperoni?

[B]

I also just want, like, I actually got excited about what went on behind the scenes when, whether it was Jeremiah Zagar or Brad Ingoldsby pulled Fabian aside and explained high school DJ, like, how important the DJs who played high school dances were to people growing up on the Main Line or Delaware county or maybe anywhere in America. And I'm sure it's true in the UK as well. So it's not like some foreign concept.

[A]

But, like, I think that the UK understands DJ culture. They were doing XC way before us.

[B]

I think they have something to learn from Larry, the guy that ended every middle school dance by playing Panic by the Smiths. And I was like, this song says, hang the dj, but he's the dj. But, like, these guys were gods.

[A]

This is the Paul Oakenfold remix of Left Field's Open.

[B]

Well, I saw the pole hookenfold of Villanova play. No, but like, these guys, like, these guys were celebrities because they came into your school and like, for two hours, like, it was not school. So I thought that whole scene was fantastic.

[A]

Another fantastic moment for me was the last, I don't know, five or six minutes of the. Actually, it's quite, quite a bit longer than that. The sequence of Maeve taking Sam back in.

[B]

Okay, so let's. Should we. Let's zero in on this.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Stuff because I have some, by that.

[A]

Same token, of what I'm talking about, where you, you lay the groundwork with a, A fun moment or a touching moment so that when they. That character is put in the fucking shit, you are right there with them. Everything you've seen Maeve do, her struggle with. I gotta get out of here. But I cannot leave these kids and her at once. Half of her wants to be young and hook up with guys and she works in a friggin arcade. Like, there's a, A suspended childhood to her. Like a suspended youth to her and just old way too fast. On the other hand, it's like watching her sort through the moral calculus of what Robbie's done.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Who this kid is, what his parents may have done to her family.

[B]

Which she. Yes. Which she is aware of.

[A]

Which she seems to be aware of. And then furthermore, like, her, like, wanting to do the right thing but not knowing what the right thing is until, like, she's put in, like, these incredibly extreme circumstances. Emilia Jones was fantastic in this.

[B]

She's unbelievable in this.

[A]

You also get such a sense of. I know, guys, this is stupid. We could do this about every single thing. Everybody's got shopping plazas and, like, that was so real to me. The arcade next to the supermarket next to the. Whatever. Talk to me about how you felt about that sequence.

[B]

It was a beautiful expression of what the show's core conceit is, is that there's authority, there's criminality, and then there's humanity. And which side are you ultimately going to end up on? Before we even get into the specifics of what time of night was this where most children are completely asleep, but some children are still playing skeeball at KJ's?

[A]

That's true.

[B]

I do have a question about that. The thing that I want to start with in terms of how this whole thread unraveled was in relation to a conversation we've been having about Alien Earth. Now, I'm not spoiling it.

[A]

Good.

[B]

If you're one of those people who skips around, don't worry. We've been talking about the level of plausibility and believability in terms of a horror show where characters have to be dumb enough to open the specimen jar or walk to the basement in order for the story to happen. But how many times and how many times do they do it? And how do you hide the ball in terms of what they're aware of and what they're not aware of, and what is driving it ultimately? Is it character behavior or is it the story has to go this way to tell the story? I want to tell you, and I thought of that. When Maeve is told that this is the son of one of Robbie's colleagues and he's going to be staying with them for a while. And she nods.

[A]

Not a very convincing story by Robbie, but yes.

[B]

And then, you know, relatively short amount of screen time later, she takes out her phone and Googles everything about what she has seen and learns everything. Yeah, this doesn't make her Sherlock Holmes or let alone Dr. House, but it does make her human. And it is an example of a writer being like, what are the challenges? But how are those challenges opportunities, if I push things towards plausibility? Well, these people are smart in a.

[A]

Way that engages of that episode. And probably in between Sunday to Sunday, what most people are thinking is, how much longer can Robbie get away with essentially taking a child from a crime scene before that kid is all over the news, before there are people who are like, have you seen this boy? There's posters everywhere and he's not going to be able to leave the house. And the kid, it's himself, is old enough to see the Television. And to be like, something's fucked up here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I like the fact that he's starting to become a little bit suspicious of his circumstances. You're absolutely right. Like, it's like a perfect little. Like, everybody is like, no, get phones out of TV and movies. Because it's so annoying that anybody could just Google anything. But that is exactly the kind of thing somebody would be like, what? What the fuck?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And would Google it.

[B]

And. And he. And it forced him to come up with a elegant way to extend the status quo.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The. Is it? Look, you could be a very cynical watcher of TV and be like, nothing changed in that moment. Except now Maeve is in on it. But the moment when she got back in the car after believing to have done what she thought was the right thing and the kids in the backseat was a legitimate sort of jump scare, but it was like, oh. And then the tension ratchets up because it's well directed and it's well conceived, and that is. That's what we're looking for in dramatic storytelling. It's always about hiding the ball. It's always about manipulating the audience. But what can you gain from the ways in which you do them initially?

[A]

Well, she's also a person who's obviously, like, done whatever she can to help these other. These people in her family and has a job. Like, she just seems like somebody who's like, I'm just trying to get through my life without massively fucking it up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now look what. And that's what she says in the very last line of the episode, which is, what have you done to us? You know, and she means those kids, too. She means everybody around them. Because it's not just Robbie. It's going to affect everybody in that house.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And she doesn't even know about the fentanyl, which is really dangerous to have in your trunk.

[B]

Seems like a lot of fentanyl, too.

[A]

I think that the one beat I wanted to talk to you about in the episode before, we talk about, like, kind of where this stuff is going.

[B]

Just the last thing, the Maeve thing, it was cool that Maeve and Tom crossed. Like you said a moment ago, how many different factions there are. Cool to see it just in small ways. Starting to overlap already.

[A]

It just kind of goes back, you know, you could say Tom maybe not the most. Like, he was not scrutinizing the situation with the utmost, like, Eye of Sauron level of, you know, detail. If you had had his knight, you might not either.

[B]

Exactly. And speaking of like, storytelling choices, like the cut when Perry and Jason are discussing who their antagonist is, who they're up against, and they cut to him, like, eating a hoagie and just slopping everywhere. And just, like, we don't have much to worry about there. That told us the story.

[A]

There's some problems going on because we've got. Obviously, someone within the dark hearts is communicating with Cliff and Robbie about where the houses are going to be.

[B]

I've got a guess to you.

[A]

Well, so do you think it's the guy who was like, that kid six feet deep?

[B]

Yes. The guy who's just like, I was eating that.

[A]

I wonder if that's.

[B]

He's real nervous.

[A]

All right. Herring. And it's going to be the other guy. But I'm not. You're. You're probably right. You're probably right.

[B]

No.

[A]

And then there's a mole inside of the task force or inside of law enforcement who's ex. And that's another place where I'm kind of. Grasanova just knew a lot about motorcycle gangs.

[B]

Do you think he was DJing? Some. Some dance night at Lefty's Tap Room. Lefty's Tap Room.

[A]

Can you imagine if we happened upon Lefty's Tap Room?

[B]

I had this exact guy.

[A]

I know it's late, but could we throw the Emmys on? I just want to see what story Hollywood's telling about itself.

[B]

This guy doesn't work blue. Do you like him? I. I had the exact same thought. I feel like, you know, during our. Our wayward youths or 20s, like, we would stop into various taverns.

[A]

I would be fine. Lefties Tap Room.

[B]

I. I knew you would say that.

[A]

First of all, inside smoking. I would love that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I did not know that was still legal. I suppose that's just an indication of. Of the cops looking the other way.

[B]

There was, as I learned earlier, social clubs, right? Like. Like the great McGlincheys in Philadelphia. I was like, well, I've stumbled in here on one night. We've traveled back to 2006, and there's a story in the Inquirer being like, you could still smoke at one bar, and this is it. And why did you go there? You had to burn your clothes. I just. I do think it would have been good comedy if we had walked into Lefty's Tap Room and you would just immediately become the intramural football player that you were in eighth grade. And I'm like, do you guys have any Japanese rice lagers?

[A]

Like, what's any. Anything. Na. Do you Think, Yeah. I try not to drink on Sundays. It gives me the scariest.

[B]

The vibes would have been Stephen Graham, Jack Thorne, like, standing on stage.

[A]

I don't think. Look at me. I look a lot more like Jack Thorne than I do Stephen Graham.

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

I just think I would.

[B]

I'm not saying height wise. I'm saying energy wise.

[A]

The American experiment is men go on from all over. You sit down right next to each other and just say, that guy needs. He needs to make that pass. He's got to make that pass. True.

[B]

But this. The game was not on.

[A]

It left fucking wasn't.

[B]

You know what I mean? It was a lot of people going about the hard work of drinking.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It was a business part.

[A]

But, you know, they still have their manners. When that guy Bishop walks in, he's like, go greet him.

[B]

That's true. That is. That's like me talking to my children when they see their grandparents.

[A]

Greet him.

[B]

Greet him.

[A]

I want to talk to you a little bit about the. The sort of Brandis family reunion that happens.

[B]

Wild scene.

[A]

We get that all explained to us. Yes. So Tom and his wife had a biological daughter named Sarah who is back in town. She lives in Chicago, I think now, and is back in town with her.

[B]

Sarah, Karen. Go on.

[A]

And then they adopted a pair of siblings, Emily and Ethan. Ethan had some psychological, some emotional problems, was off his meds during COVID because it was difficult to access them, and threw his mother down the stairs and killed her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And is in prison for that. And this crucial. This titular from the episode title, family Statement is coming up where Emily is thinking about maybe making a statement on Ethan's behalf or asking for mercy from the judge. And the judge is apparently taking that very seriously. And it really just pulls apart the family, like right at a dinner table.

[B]

And who is the other guy?

[A]

I think that's their lawyer, who is also a family friend.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yes. So he was in the first episode.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And explains to.

[B]

Right. That was him. Yeah.

[A]

Here's how this is going to work.

[B]

I thought it was so early. I thought he was a colleague, but now I see.

[A]

Yeah, you really have to get a better laptop because it seems like a lot of these things, but I love it. Look, there's not too many new ways to skin a cat. And we're going to come across things in this show and lots of shows like this that are like, you know, what works. Traumatized detectives experiencing loss and trying to rebuild their lives probably through their work. Like, it's just something that people respond to. The question is whether or not you can either think of a new way to present it visually or performance wise, or do you have somebody like Ruffalo who is so fucking good, he's so good that he can just break through the wall. And even though it's the same thing that detectives have been talking about more or less for the last 15 years on television, where you're just like, then a thing happened and I lost my faith in humanity. And I don't know, I drink out of a cup now.

[B]

That was good.

[A]

He bursts through and you may find it to be, like, too cute by half that he is also a fallen priest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now you know why he fell.

[B]

Like, you know, like, now he's still falling.

[A]

Yeah. Now you know why, you know. And he's grappling with things from a religious, questing kind of perspective.

[B]

There's a sense that you get from him that he has the patience of a saint. And now you understand more deeply why he is modeling his patience on the patience of saints, but also why someone locked in a spiritual struggle internally could look very much like someone who is paralyzed or drowning from the outside. And I think the moment, the way that he plays that scene was so masterful, because he doesn't really. That's the moment where a lesser actor in a lesser production, like, I don't think anybody would have allowed this. That's the moment where you go big. And he seemed to collapse inward under the weight of it in a way that was as effective. It was an implosion versus an explosion. And it was incredibly memorable for it. I also love the way that all the little details and choices that we celebrate when we watch the show pay dividends. Like, I, you know, I said this last week. I'm so thrilled that one of the greatest errors of Mare of Easttown, the Rolling Rock sponsorship, was corrected in this episode where they are just pouring yuengling lagers out like it's like it's Philly tap water.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you have every character drinking from the same long neck bottle and then his daughter shows up and is just swishing a real oaky cab. Sauv. After a long day of travel, you're like, I understand.

[A]

But I also really, really liked if it was intended or not. You know, obviously Tom has a drinking problem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it could have been inherited by his daughter. You know what I mean? Like, where she's like, clearly on a night away from the husband, tucking in to some oaky bread.

[B]

Well, I mean, she didn't have Like a novelty glass that said Mommy's little helper on it. You know what I mean? Like, we're not there yet.

[A]

Do you? Yes.

[B]

It's from my Japanese rice lagers. Mm, mm, mm. A whole day I put the edge on, and then at night, that helps take the edge off, I have to say. Yeah.

[A]

I recently specialty ordered a case of Japanese rice lagers, and you might think that they were coming from, like, Yokohama.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For what I paid for them, but they're, like, Occidental Brewing. They're, like, down the street.

[B]

Oh, you got. Oh, you got like a. Like one of the local microbrews that's in the style of an Asahi. Yes. But you paid 45 for it.

[A]

Let's. Let's say it was 45.

[B]

Sure. Wow.

[A]

Well, it's 24 of them.

[B]

Okay. How many are left after that episode of task 12.

[A]

I have my own lefties tap room going.

[B]

I get it, I get it. No judgment.

[A]

I would say that just for next week, I did not watch scenes from next week, nor have I watched the episode, but it sure feels like we're going into Philly.

[B]

Yeah. Because we have to talk to the. Is it the Dominicans who run Philly? Did you know that I. I do wish that that the. The time I spent watching the later, lesser episodes of Dope Thief counted as research. Like, I do wish that they were walking into kind of the same shadowy criminal hierarchy. That would just have helped. A couple other observations. Again, just one I wanted to make in particular. Like, I don't think that the. The quants will emerge from this episode with this take, but I think it bears mentioning on the podcast that Peach's fiance's dad wasn't wrong about Peaches. Now, did he pick the right moment to tell his daughter that he always thought that guy she met online was a lowlife? No, I think that in that moment, that's not what she needed emotionally. But big picture, considering that Peach's bad behavior led to the dark hearts entering his home and likely beating him to.

[A]

Death, I think they are dead.

[B]

I feel like he should have trusted his. His spidey sense there.

[A]

But also might be a wrong move by Jay, because obviously the cops have already been to Peaches, like, girlfriend's family's house. So, like, that's gonna put them on the scent of the dark hearts more so than they even already are.

[B]

Well, I think, again, the cool thing about the show is just some decisions that were made in the construction beforehand, such as we know the crime, we know who did it. We are increasingly seeing the connections as to why Robbie is aware of these drop houses, why he's targeting the Dark Hearts. There's a personal element to it, but just that the teams are drawn and the only wild card is Robbie and Cliff. Like, how quickly will they be discovered? Which the way that the show is going, which I appreciate, which is they're not stalling for stalling's sake will be soon. That's the only variable. The task force is there looking at dark hearts and trying to stop people. It's less about stopping the dark Hearts. Right. Than it is about stopping the people who are antagonizing the dark Hearts, which could spill over into a gang war in Montgomery County.

[A]

Did you hear how you just did Over.

[B]

Which is still over.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God, this show's really taking me back, isn't it?

[A]

I know.

[B]

It's because I was starting to talk about Montco and I was worried about, you know, bus routes in my stomping grounds.

[A]

If you have task questions, please hit us up thewatchpotify.com, we'll wrap it up there. Thanks to Kayak, Kai and John for helping us this week.

[B]

How do you like your pancakes? Is anyone crispy? Crispy panspeed. Have you ever heard that? Has anyone ever offered you crispy pancakes? I've heard crispy bacon, but crispy or fluffy pancakes is an option. That is. I feel like then we'd be kind of getting into like a crepe territory.

[A]

That's goddamn right, Kai.

[B]

That's the European perspective that we want.

[A]

I saw in a TV show to be named later, someone ordered a steak crispy with A1 sauce and I have to say. And an ice cold pilsner. Is that like a.

[B]

Were you watching? I think you should leave.

[A]

I was watching.

[B]

It's like a crispy steak with water poured all over it.

[A]

Some early, early season three severance previs stuff. But I've never. I don't think I've ever had a crispy steak.

[B]

Yeah, it's not usually how. You know, maybe if you go into Lefty's tap room, you don't get an option.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Could I get that like a medium rare?

[A]

Like a pink, but Great talking to you today.

[B]

Is that grass fed?

[A]

You did great today.

[B]

Do you think? Yeah, that's because. You know what? I came in. I came in with a game plan. You're so passionate, like Vic Fangio.

[A]

I'll talk to you on Thursday.

[B]

I can't wait.