‘The Pitt’ Season 2, Episodes 9 and 10, Checking In on ‘Paradise’ S2, and Kate Winslet Is the Next ‘LOTR’ Lead. Plus, Wrapping Up the ‘Industry’ Mailbag.

Summary

The Watch - March 13, 2026

Episode Summary

Main Theme:
Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan dive deep into the current state of prestige TV and film with a particular focus on ‘The Pitt’ (Season 2, Episodes 9 & 10), discuss the evolving ‘Paradise’ Season 2, break down casting and IP news (including Kate Winslet joining the LOTR universe), and wrap up their longstanding ‘Industry’ mailbag. The episode flows between earnest, granular TV analysis and their signature, tangential humor about pop culture, sports, and personal eccentricities.

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Episode Breakdown

1. Opening Banter & TV Industry Pulse

Timestamp: 01:43 – 06:58

• Chris and Andy riff on apocalyptic prepping, aging, and "creature comforts.”
  • Chris: “I’m starting to wonder whether I’ve developed too many creature comforts. If I’ve gotten soft in my late 40s.” (02:06)
• Andy jokes about Sweetgreen and “slop bowls.”
• Discussion of the mood shift after ‘Kingdom’ and ‘Industry’ ended, with Chris likening his TV malaise to an injured baseball pitcher:
  • Chris: “The last couple days since Kingdom and Industry went off, I feel that way. When I turn my TV on, I’m like, is there something up? I may need TV Tommy John.” (06:49)

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2. Hollywood News & Notes:

Timestamp: 09:41 – 15:25

Major New Projects and Casting:

• Tommy Lee Jones Joins ‘The Lowdown’ (FX, S2)
  • Chris: “Tommy Lee Jones is on the second season of the Lowdown. … Tommy Lee Jones was on an HBO movie in 2011 and has otherwise not been on TV in 40 years since Lonesome Dove. Yes. This is really cool.” (11:14)
• Betty Gilpin also joins the cast.
• Andy praises FX: “FX has a history of supporting filmmakers and showing patience with shows… just be what they are for a matter of time, which is commendable.” (11:42)
• Peter Gould’s ‘Disinherited’ (FX) Announced
  • Chris: “It just feels like a good TV show. … FX is still chugging along on the same tracks that they’ve been on. … They will make stars.” (13:07)

Industry Meta:

• They lament media consolidation (Penske, Penske’s news dominance).
• Marvel at FX and TV’s willingness to take narrative and casting risks.

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3. Lord of the Rings Universe Expands

Timestamp: 16:20 – 23:12

• News: Andy Serkis will direct ‘The Hunt for Gollum’; Elijah Wood, Kate Winslet (as presumably an elf or Galadriel), Ian McKellen attached; Leo Woodall cast as Aragorn.
• Andy: “So the movie is set between the Hobbit trilogy and the Lord of the Rings trilogy with Aragorn and Gandalf searching for Gollum to learn more information about the Ring.” (19:56)
• Chris: “It’s supposed to be largely an Aragorn movie, all right? And Viggo won’t do it. So Leo Woodall is going to be Aragorn.” (20:39)
• Extended riffing on Tolkien lore, lived experiences with LOTR/Marvel/West Coast Avengers (with plenty of in-jokes and banter).

Memorable Quote:

Chris: “What if Duke was his late cycle pal and it was just yet another opportunity for corporate synergy? Yeah, that’d be…sick.” (31:31)

Comic Book Sidebar:

• Lighthearted discussion about comic book IP, Moon Knight, and 2003 pop culture.

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4. The Pitt S2, Episodes 9 & 10: In-Depth Breakdown

Timestamp: 24:31 – 46:54

Main Plot: Robbie’s Arc and Character Shifts

• Focus: Robbie’s “over the line” behavior, emotional shifts, and possible foreshadowing regarding his future on the show.
• Chris: “But I think the big headline coming out of it for me has been Robby’s behavior over the last couple of episodes.” (25:35)
• Andy’s analysis: Robbie has “senioritis” before vacation but also control issues. His role as lead star/exec means show pivots around his character.
• Speculation: Will Robbie die/have a breakdown/leave the show?
  • Andy: “Noah Wylie is the Ducati engine that fuels this generational success… He is not leaving the show…Could he get in an accident/nervous breakdown? Could the season end with a cliffhanger?” (30:29)

Show Structure and Stakes

• The tension between real consequences and narrative constraints (“Occam’s Scalpel”).
• Pit as a flagship show for Warner Bros Discovery—too valuable to lose lead.

Other Characters:

• Alashimi’s “slash trach” procedure: Strong moment, develops her trauma/PTSD backstory.
• Santos’ backsliding / role as “mild antagonist”—Andy notes it may be more a function of writing comfort than organic arc.
  • Andy: “...the downstream effects of that decision is that Santos feels like she’s backsliding, that she’s just being petulant, that she’s just being annoying. … The show moves so fast that all of this can be forgotten.” (41:15)
• Water park disaster episode – Andy thinks the “moms” storyline was “a little clunky” (44:22).

Notable Quotes:

• Chris: “Now it’s like Steve Albini’s kick drums — you cannot ignore this.” (25:51)
• Andy: “This show is this man’s story as much as it is the story of the emergency room.” (28:12)

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5. Paradise Season 2: First Impressions

Timestamp: 52:26 – 62:27

• Structural Note:

  • Paradise dropped in a binge-style release; Chris and Andy discuss the challenge of engaging with shows not released weekly.
  • Chris: “You blink and five episodes are up. … We’re just so fully divorced from the rhythm of once a week.” (52:26, 53:11)

• Season 2 Moves:

  • Opens with Shailene Woodley as a failed med school dropout co-surviving the apocalypse at Graceland.
  • Third episode dovetails into the returning characters from S1.
  • Andy: “There’s just something very, very entertaining about a show that privileges … character development and emotional accuracy over realism. … It reminded me of the glory days of Lost.” (54:14)

• Zigging Where Others Zag: Show resists grimdark genre tropes, finds new ways to keep viewers off-guard.

Memorable Quotes:

• Chris: “Every single episode of this show, especially this season, has some like, God damn, you guys are…this is happening? You guys are doing this now.” (59:10)
• Andy: “There is an elegance and a craftsmanship in making an episode … rhyme perfectly … preposterous, hackneyed, and yet they were like, let’s steer towards this and give the best version of it.” (60:33)

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6. Industry Mailbag: Reflecting on the Final Season

Timestamp: 62:28 – 81:09

• Listener Mail: Questions about Season 4’s “glory hole” Easter egg, Whitney/Harper tapes, and what’s next in Season 5.
• Chris shares a creator explanation of the "sinister Whitney Y. frame": “It’s Whitney looking through a glory hole. We shot this entire scene to do with glory holes.” (63:28)
• Discussion: Industry’s evolving structure (“rudderless drifting” after leaving Pierpoint), similarities to workplace dramas of previous decades, and the challenge of constructing TV when the workplace/family is no longer a reliable anchor for serialized drama.
• Listener gth’s comment: A poetic reflection on Industry’s macro themes:
  • “Capitalism plus the Internet as a vector towards widespread ontological fragmentation … Capitalism assumes infinite growth in a world of finite resources. How in the world can any of us expect to not go completely insane when that is where we are starting?” (77:49)
• Andy: “There’s an element ... where I feel like we are focusing on the aesthetic choices of the flatware in the dining hall when they are actually covering the Titanic as it sinks.” (79:50)

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7. Running Jokes & Personal Sidebar

Interspersed throughout, notably 01:56-02:45, 82:16 – end

• Slop bowl vs. salad bowl, Sweetgreen dependency, and the anxiety of product discontinuation.
• Chris: “If you have dependencies on very specific products, you are enslaved to those products and these huge corporations.” (81:30)
• Offer for Andy to make Chris lunch devolves into fish/soup specifics and mutual ribbing about who’s the bigger nerd (Marvel vs. LOTR).
• Amanda Dobbins comic book sidebar cameo (off-mic).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Chris on TV Ennui:

  “The last couple days since Kingdom and Industry went off, I feel that way. When I turn my TV on, I’m like, is there something up? I may need TV Tommy John.” (06:49)

• Andy on FX’s TV Model:

  “FX has a history of supporting filmmakers and creators that it’s in business with and showing a patience with shows and letting them grow or just be what they are for a matter of time, which is commendable.” (11:42)

• On Middle-Earth Lore:

  Andy: “So the movie is set between the Hobbit trilogy and the Lord of the Rings trilogy with Aragorn and Gandalf searching for Gollum to learn more information about the Ring.” (19:56)
  Chris: “It’s supposed to be largely an Aragorn movie, all right? And Viggo won’t do it. So Leo Woodall is going to be Aragorn.” (20:39)

• On The Pitt’s Stakes:

  Andy: “Noah Wylie is the Ducati engine that fuels this generational success that the show already is. He is not leaving the show. … It doesn’t work like that.” (30:29)

• Industry’s Macro Critique:

  Listener gth: “Capitalism plus the Internet as a vector towards widespread ontological fragmentation … Capitalism assumes infinite growth in a world of finite resources. How in the world can any of us expect to not go completely insane when that is where we are starting?” (77:49)

• Lighthearted End:

  Andy: “You should come over for lunch sometime. I’ll cook you a lunch.” (83:13)

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Timestamps & Important Segments

• 01:43 – 06:58: Opening Banter & TV Ennui
• 09:41 – 15:25: Hollywood News: Tommy Lee Jones & New TV Development
• 16:20 – 23:12: Lord of the Rings New Movie, Casting, and Fan Riffs
• 24:31 – 46:54: The Pitt S2E9/E10 Detailed Analysis
• 52:26 – 62:27: Paradise Season 2 Discussion
• 62:28 – 81:09: Industry Mailbag - Deep Listener/Meta Analysis
• 82:16 – end: Slop Bowls, Sweetgreen, and Friendship Lunch Offers

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Episode Takeaway

A rich, sharply funny, and insightful breakdown of contemporary TV and film: The Pitt continues to anchor their critical interest, while Paradise and Industry show the challenge—and thrill—of making serialized drama in a landscape unmoored from old formulae. Plus, their community of deeply engaged listeners is equally up for big-picture media critique and inside-baseball jokes.

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

tremphfireradio.com this episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else. But that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from vw, from the other outcasts out there. Take a chance, make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then. Because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn [e-mail]. Pain Sports to have to clear the

[Andy Greenwald]

room, Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, the Bunker was just the beginning. It's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

I love opportunities to talk to you about prepping.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

About end of the world.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

How we'd fare badly.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I'm starting to wonder.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder whether or not I've developed too many creature comforts. If I've gotten soft in my late 40s.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think that you would make it to the bunker and then the next day you'd wake up.

[Chris Ryan]

This is about paradise, by the way.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, not yet, but that you'd wake up and just through sheer force of habit, walk to Sweetgreen and then die in nuclear winter.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm worried about Sweetgreen. We can get to that into the Watch After Dark segment.

[Andy Greenwald]

After Dark. Let's talk about slop Bowls and food and stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not. I don't call it a slop bowl. It's kale, you know, it's not slop.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look how upset that made you. There are very few things that can rattle you this far into your media curry.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't want everything in my life fetishized. You know, I like a salad for lunch. It is what it is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. All right.

[Chris Ryan]

Excuse me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Should we rest? I mean, we're at war. But I guess this is what you're upset about.

[Chris Ryan]

Today on the Watch, a couple news and notes from the world of Hollyweird. And we're gonna talk about the last two episodes of the Pit because we didn't get to touch on it last week.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right.

[Chris Ryan]

But, you know, the Pit in general. This episode will go up. Our episode of the Watch will go up after the most recent episode of the Pit airs today. On Thursday, we're gonna talk a little bit broadly about paradise season two. Five episodes have aired.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just insane.

[Chris Ryan]

Andy's watched three. I've watched four. The fifth one is up. Mina is already texting me about it. I'm not trying to read into it. Mina Kimes is a big paradise head. I think we're gonna do it Monday in depth once we get through the entirety.

[Andy Greenwald]

But we are going to remind everyone a little bit about the show and maybe give some general feelings about why they should stick with it for season two.

[Chris Ryan]

And then at the end of the show, a long promised industry. Mailb. It's only been 10 days since industry has been off the air, but it feels like it's been longer than that for some reason. First at the top. Oh, watch the [e-mail]. please email us because I love these industry emails and I love. I love feedback and sharing it with Andy selectively. And you can follow us at the Instagram, the watchpod underscore.

[Andy Greenwald]

Everybody bubble wraps. Me.

[Chris Ryan]

No, no, no, no.

[Andy Greenwald]

All right.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's because I know it impacts you. You know it affects you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I am. I lead with feelings.

[Chris Ryan]

You do.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I'm an empathetic colleague.

[Chris Ryan]

That would be your downfall in the apocalypse.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's 100% true. 100% true.

[Chris Ryan]

And then you can watch us on YouTube. Ringer Dash TV is the channel. And you can watch us on Spotify, where I hope you're listening to us.

[Andy Greenwald]

So 12 days into CR month, by the way.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but here I get to be Chris.

[Andy Greenwald]

What's a traditional gift? Oh, wait, yeah, that's true. By the Way. I've never called you that. Mm.

[Chris Ryan]

Mm. And it's just like, I can just be myself here if I'm in a bad mood, if I'm in a good mood, if I'm.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, if you just haven't had enough kale yet.

[Chris Ryan]

It's been a. It's been a really lovely month on the Rewatchables. You know, just great. Knocking out the To Live and Die in LA is coming on Monday.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm very excited.

[Chris Ryan]

We're recording Nice guys next week. It's a great choice, LA Confidential, which hopefully you will be on.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is it still?

[Chris Ryan]

I just don't know the day that we're recording. And I know you have a very tight schedule.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it's not that. You have a very. Bill has a very whimsical schedule.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's just, like, you can tell when we record rewatchables based on when Bill records the Bill Simmons podcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

So usually it's the days that he's not recording, we can record rewatchables.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. I'm just. I'm just on. I'm on standby, you know?

[Chris Ryan]

How many times have you watched LA Confidential in preparation?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, that's why I keep asking you how many days out we are, because I want to be fresh.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, that's one of the things with rewatchables, is, like, you can't watch too far in advance.

[Andy Greenwald]

I agree.

[Chris Ryan]

You lose the. That je ne sais quoi, the electricity.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, this is. I feel like this is transgressive because this is my first time potentially appearing on the podcast since the embargo was lifted. On talking about the movies that are gonna be on the podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know what's going on.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I mean, it seems.

[Chris Ryan]

Brave New world. He's mapping it out for people. They're getting 4Ks delivered, you know, ahead of time. All sorts of stuff is happening out there. I wanna talk to you a little bit about the small screen.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Because I've been in a little bit. You know how, like, you see sometimes, like, a pitcher will go out there for any Major League baseball team. The Tigers, the A's, the Phillies, you

[Andy Greenwald]

know, you're wearing a tiger's hat.

[Chris Ryan]

I am wearing a tiger's hat. Fuck it. You know what I mean? What's gonna happen?

[Andy Greenwald]

What else could go wrong?

[Chris Ryan]

What else could happen? You know, it's like, it's not because I was wearing a tiger's hat that Covid happened, you know, like, we don't know, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And sometimes you See, pitcher goes out there and you're like, oh, I'm really excited to watch Cole Hamills today.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And that. That's been a while since I'm locked in. But throws one pitch.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And he's just like, ah. You know, he points at his shoulder. He's just like, oh, something's up. Something went wrong. And I got to admit, the last couple of days since Kingdom and Industry went off, I feel that way. When I turn my TV on, I'm like, is there's something up? I may need tv. Tommy John, you know, there's something going on with, like. I really enjoyed watching paradise over the last couple of days.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, good.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, I do feel, like, almost bad because sometimes it's not tv, it's you, and now it's you about tv.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

But sometimes those shows might have arrived. I've been thinking a lot about Heady. No, I've been thinking about our reaction to dtf. I've been thinking about shows that I know are coming on the horizon. I think finding out that Scarpetta was like, doa.

[Andy Greenwald]

We have to cover Scarpetta after reading a review of it in the New York Times. That makes it sound like the most unhinged shit that's ever been made.

[Chris Ryan]

This is the Amazon adaptation of Patricia Cornwall's beloved series of mystery novels starring Nicole Kidman. But based on this review, seems like they had some different ideas in the room about how to approach this. This series.

[Andy Greenwald]

I strongly suggest reading the review of the show, even if you're the kind of person who doesn't read reviews. I read the New York Times review by Mike Hale.

[Chris Ryan]

I said it's paper of record.

[Andy Greenwald]

Quite. With a gray lady doing what it does best.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I don't mean to distract you from your larger point. It's just that this show, which seems to be relatively straightforward, like a latest press conference.

[Chris Ryan]

Trump breaks norms.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that. That's the split screen. No, no. There was a really interesting video essay on why cats always land on their feet yesterday. I don't know if you saw that. Is it really? And also if you scroll. This is a little media criticism. One of my favorite things about waking up bleary eyed and seeing what other wars we've gotten into is that every third image on the New York Times app is. Jenny Slate teaches you about AI and hiring. Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

Cause it's an ad, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just great.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just last call, the money bar. Let's get it done. Sidebar. Scarpetta. Deep pocketed studio. Amazon. Relatively big Property that has entrenched fan base seems to be straightforward. I mean, there have been a lot of successful shows, as Mike Hale points out in his review over the last few decades, about female forensic pathologists. And I love them. And yet, somehow, with this one with

[Chris Ryan]

Nicole Kidman, the second Mrs. Ryan will probably be a female forensic pathologist or

[Andy Greenwald]

Lady Edith from Downton Abbey.

[Chris Ryan]

She was great.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's one or the other for you.

[Chris Ryan]

She was great. I loved her.

[Andy Greenwald]

Simon Baker, Bobby Cannavale. Jamie Lee Curtis. Big cast. And yet they seem to have decided to make this show in two timelines with young actors playing the same other actors.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Why do they do that?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know, man. We're going to find out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. Anyway, sorry. You're thinking it's not all working for you.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, it's just like. Just like sometimes you get out there and you're just like, God, you know, something happened on my shoulder. But the reason I bring this up is, is just to say I think I got a little spooked by seeing others say, I love DTF St. Louis. And I was like, is it. Is there something wrong with my ear, with my eye?

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, our buddy Jason Manzoukas said it.

[Chris Ryan]

I know, man. So I. It's just sometimes you get a. Get a little in your head and in TV in general, with tv. Right now, I think I'm a little bit. I'm slumping a little bit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

But I saw this News coming from Deadline.com and other trades, you know, across the board.

[Andy Greenwald]

But that's your favorite of the Penske properties.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like, I prefer Penske as just purely as a motorsports entity, but when it comes to news, I go there first.

[Andy Greenwald]

Interesting. It is. I still think we don't talk about enough the fact that one guy owns Deadline, Variety, and the Hollywood Reporter.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And we're giving David Ellison a hard time for owning two studios. Like, that's weirder.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it is pretty weird.

[Andy Greenwald]

Go on.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think the guy who owns Chelsea owns, like, a big piece of all of it. And the Golden Globes. Todd Bowley.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hmm. You want to bring in the beautiful game.

[Chris Ryan]

What's his Clearwater capital? I think is him.

[Andy Greenwald]

Last week, you were talking about Red Bird. Today you're talking about Clearwater.

[Chris Ryan]

My guy Jerry.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're seeing the bigger picture now.

[Chris Ryan]

Jerry was fucking dueling with Matt Bellany.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Should he come on the watch?

[Chris Ryan]

I fucking wake up every morning dying to do stuff like this. Let's get in a fight. Some TV news that gave me a Little pep in my step.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Tommy Lee Jones is on the second season of the Lowdown. I'm going to say that again.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Not because I butchered it, but also because I want to hear my. Make sure those words are coming out right. Tommy Lee Jones.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Is on the second season of the Lowdown on fx. He's joining Betty Gilpin as another addition,

[Andy Greenwald]

a big hire to the cast.

[Chris Ryan]

Tommy Lee Jones was on an HBO movie in 2011 and has otherwise not been on TV in 40 years since Lonesome Dove. Yes. This is really cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's really cool. I mean, it is such an. We spend a lot of time on this show, I think, not incorrectly bemoaning the current cultural moment and the state of the industry. And one of the reasons or one of the bemoans we could have let out is the fact that Sterling Hard Joe's the Lowdown, one of the best shows of last year. We have no idea how or if it connected with people. And it did get a second season because it deserves one and it's excellent. And FX has a history of supporting the filmmakers and creators that it's in business with and showing a patience with shows and letting them grow or just be what they are for a matter of time, which is commendable. But then it's not just that. It's like we gave you a courtesy renewal. He goes out big game hunting and gets Tommy Lee Jones to be on the second season of the show. Now, having an actor like Ethan Hawke leading it probably helps.

[Chris Ryan]

It probably helps, but I don't think Tommy Lee Jones gets out of bed just for like a good offer.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe he watched the screener of Blue Moon and was like, time to get back in the saddle.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I think he hopefully watched the Lowdown and was like, that's a good show I'd be on. I can see where I fit in there. Betty Gilpin, also just such a phenomenal performer. I'm really excited to see her on this. FX had also recently announced something that we didn't really touch on, which was a new show from Better Call Saul creator Peter Gould.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I wanted to talk about this. Yeah, what's it called?

[Chris Ryan]

Disinherited. And it stars Victoria Pedretti, who's done some stuff in the Mike Flanagan universe. I think she was on. I want to. She was on like House of Usher, but I can't remember which one she was on. They kind of run together for me a little bit. Kiera Allen is the other star of the show and it's about here's the Logline. A pair of scrappy sisters thrust by an unexpected inheritance into a world of generational wealth and long buried crimes. This is noteworthy to me. A Peter Gould, very interested to see what he does. It's his first show after Better Call Saul. And second of all, it just feels like a good TV show. Like, I don't know why, but like, when I close my eyes, I'm like, dope. FX is still like chugging along on the same tracks that they've been on. I know they were with Disney now developing stuff, and they will make a show with people that most TV viewers are not familiar with. They will make stars rather than be like, oh, if only. Can we get Kidman to play this forensic pathologist.

[Andy Greenwald]

Speaking of forensic pathology, it's probably not worth getting into the weeds and trying to DNA test the origins of every project in development that gets greenlit. But often you kind of can not just read the tea leaves, but read the larger cultural waves that affected this project that they announced, for example, FX a few months ago, we didn't even talk about it. Announced a family drama starring Elizabeth Olsen and that seems exciting. Garrett Bash, who produces a lot of their great shows with Taika and also did Ripley as well. One of the producers behind it.

[Chris Ryan]

He's a producer on Lowdown too, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, he is. But when I read that news, because I know nothing about the project, I just read it knowing that every single network and streamer for the last 10 years has basically had a mandate to try and crack the family drama code. Sure, they all want to do a Six Feet under type thing. So this may be unique. That show that we're talking about may be, you know, a special flower that, that moves beyond that mandate. But then you come up with a project like this again, we know nothing about it, but as you said, I've never heard of either of these leads or seen them, and I think that's a good thing. All I know is Peter Gould knows how to make television and the logline sounds like an exciting area for a TV show. And Chris, that's how we used to make stuff in this country. So I do feel pretty enthused about that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's a strange moment. I mean, I think that obviously there's the pit. We're having a great time with that. And honestly, these last two weeks, I'm like, this is really just the only thing I want to watch. I wish there was like 500 episodes of this already. DTF St. Louis we talked about on Monday and some of our Mixed emotions about it. Rooster. We also discussed Love Story. I will not watch for a variety of reasons.

[Andy Greenwald]

Daryl Hannah being chief among them.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't watch Ryan Murphy shows.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, we've agreed on that. That's something that has freed up a lot of our time in that space over the years.

[Chris Ryan]

Paradise. I'm enjoying Vladimir. I have yet to check out on Netflix with Rachel Weisz and Young Sherlock. We've gotten a couple of emails being like, have you Check this out. But I have not. That's on Amazon Prime.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's a title. That's the other way we used to make things in this country.

[Chris Ryan]

What if Sherlock was younger?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So I just wanted to work through my issues here. Did you have other news you wanted to talk about today?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think you're setting up something that's worth talking about. And we will. Because how things used to be familiar beats in television, playing the hits. I mean, paradise fits right into that conversation. So we'll get to that momentarily. I have a question for you. That's the big screen, not the small screen. Sure. There is a particular film. Usually we sit here and, you know, I don't know, like, conversation happens and someone makes a passing reference to Moon Knight. I'm like, actually, Marc Spector inherited the Egyptian spirit of Khonshu or whatever. And then you're like, let's go.

[Chris Ryan]

For instance.

[Andy Greenwald]

For instance. Just throwing that out there. The one area where I mean. Okay, then there are cooler areas where. Where we start talking about, like, you know, Alien films. And you're ready to go deep on the financial health of Weyland Yutani throughout the centuries.

[Chris Ryan]

Shareholder interest, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

But the one I believe IP that you know more than me about, Proudly, is Lord of the Rings.

[Chris Ryan]

I guess so.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. In that you've seen the movies since they were released in the theaters.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I'm just getting word from my ivory tower that there is a new Hobbit movie happening.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Elijah Wood might be in it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Gollum is in it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Andy Greenwald]

Direct title, directed by Gollum in character as Gollum. First of all, do they need an intimacy coordinator just for him to sit in his chair? Because if there's a windy day on set.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Do you think the PAs just bring live fish to Gollum?

[Andy Greenwald]

We're in a staring contest for who's gonna do the voice first. And I'm telling you, it's not gonna be me.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not gonna be me. I don't do Gollum.

[Andy Greenwald]

You don't do Gollum?

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Nah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You thought about it I saw you pause.

[Chris Ryan]

I was doing Hal from 2001 yesterday.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's good.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that was your limit. What?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I just, like, I'm just. I'm in a weird spot with. With voices. You know, Zane Lowe has been real big on the rewatch.

[Andy Greenwald]

Really big. I just like it. I was excited. Cause I kind of like it when you get baited into it and you find it in the moment. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It's also like one of those things where, like, I just can't do a New Zealand accent.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, that's a Peter Jackson accent with Zane. Oh, Zane Lowell.

[Chris Ryan]

Zane Lowell is New Zealand.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought you were talking about Peter Jackson. I was like, no, no, Peter Jackson isn't actually Gollum. I thought you would. Completely blacked out.

[Chris Ryan]

Andy Serkis is directing a film called the Hunt for Gollum.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. And friend of the podcast, Kate Winslet is now starring in this. And I need you to explain this to me. First of all, why would you go look for Gollum? Who needs more Gollum? Second, where did this story come from since they had already turned one book into three movies 20 years ago?

[Chris Ryan]

This is taking place before Fellowship of the Ring, is my understanding.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, so are we going to de age Elijah?

[Chris Ryan]

I think so.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sick.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't. Because. Because that guy got on a boat at the end of Return of the King and he went to the spoilers. No, come on, man. You know. You know what I'm talking about. You've seen the third one, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

What year did that movie come out?

[Chris Ryan]

Like 0304.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, ask me other questions about things I did or saw. In 2003.

[Chris Ryan]

You saw me at black and white.

[Andy Greenwald]

I saw you in black and white after a few too many at 4 in the morning.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. This is my understanding is that it is taking place before Fellowship of the Ring because I don't know if you saw. This is supposed to be largely. I know that Kate Winslet is leading the cast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. I would if I had to guess. Just like put me in like a gun to my head.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sorry. Okay, go on. I've got some facts here.

[Chris Ryan]

I think she's playing an elf.

[Andy Greenwald]

So the movie is set between the. Between the Hobbit trilogy and the Lord of the Rings trilogy with Aragorn and Gandalf searching for Gollum to learn more information about the Ring. So it's essentially a fact finding mission, but a movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hey, weird CGI monster, can you tell us some facts that will be not relevant to this film but to the next movie?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, the thing is that we know that their hunt fails.

[Andy Greenwald]

So best case scenario, it's Rogue One with elves. That's the best case scenario. Oh, my God. Did you just.

[Chris Ryan]

But the thing is that. Here's the jam. Yeah. It's supposed to be largely an Aragorn movie, all right? And Vigo won't do it. So Leo Woodall is going to be Aragorn.

[Andy Greenwald]

Apparently, you can just be Aragorn now.

[Chris Ryan]

I. Well, that's what I don't understand is that he obviously does not really look like Aragorn. So how young are they de. Aging these guys? Or how old are they gonna make Leo Woodall? And is Kate Winslet, Is she just Galadriel, or is she doing the Cate Blanchett part?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know. And Ian McKellen is gonna be in it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but I don't know. I bet Frodo will be, like, in the background, like. Like smoking a pipe.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is the thing.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think Frodo.

[Andy Greenwald]

What if this is Frodo's dirtbag era?

[Chris Ryan]

But it's like, Frodo can't be hunting for Gollum, because when they find him in the Shire, they're like, this is your job now. He's like, you got to be fucking kidding me. I'm just a hobbit.

[Andy Greenwald]

What if he was smoking a lot of the pipe and playing Goldeneye in 64 and just kind of like a 2003 vibe. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Listening to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Yes. I'm just saying, that's pretty cool. Or what if they wiped his mind like Peter Parker at the end of the Spider man movie?

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think that they're going to try and squeeze a trilogy out of this? I mean, if it's really successful, obviously they'll. They'll get into it, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, we've lost the trail of Gollum again.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

We must keep going.

[Chris Ryan]

And they've never. I don't really know. I. You know, I'm not a big Tolkien guy. I've just watched the movies. Do they ever do, like, what happened after they got Sauron? Did they ever do. Somehow, Sauron has returned.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is Sauron just an Eye? What is Soran?

[Chris Ryan]

No, Soren's a guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Does someone play him? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

In the fucking show. In Rings of Power.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah. Okay, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

He gets. He gets captured.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

But then his power grows. When he's, like, in that tower and he's the Eye and he controls all.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you ever see the rest of him?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, you see him in, like, when he fought Isildur. Don't fucking look at the camera. Don't look at the camera, Moon Knight. Don't do that. When we come in here, we come in here to laugh, you know, we

[Andy Greenwald]

come in here, we laugh until you start dropping. Isildur is old dork.

[Chris Ryan]

He gets his hand cut off.

[Andy Greenwald]

Remember?

[Chris Ryan]

He gets his little fingers cut off by. No, he cuts Sauron's fingers off with the. The blade that's broken. And it's Isildur's pain, I think. And they got to put it together. And he. And that's like Aragon's uncle.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sorry, I was at parties.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, you were at the comic book shop being like, oh, new mutants. What are these guys? West Coast Avengers. How do they deal with the time change?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, it's a great question. Most of the West Coast Avengers were more of, like, laconic in spirit, you know, it was just like Iron man and Wonder man.

[Chris Ryan]

Spiritually. West Coast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. They're like California sober. You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

That's not true, is it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, it was like, were they based in LA?

[Chris Ryan]

Weren't they?

[Andy Greenwald]

They were based. They were 100% based. It was like Wonder man and Hawkeye Tigra. You know, Iron man hung out for a while when he was detoxing.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, he's always detoxing, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Detox to Retox. That's my guy's Fall Out Boy Once sang in 2003, a concert I was at.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't remember. You don't remember Isildur, but you remember fucking the Water Buffalo song that Fall Out Boy did?

[Andy Greenwald]

It seems like you remember it too.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that's a good jam. That's a fucking anthem.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe their best song.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else. But that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from vw, from the other outcasts out there. Take a chance. Make the most of every day, and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then. Because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn [e-mail] that's the beauty of this podcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

What a journey we just went on.

[Chris Ryan]

That was Watch After Dark. I have nothing left for it.

[Andy Greenwald]

I got nothing left for the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's do the pit.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is what happens when Kaya steps out, by the way. Chaos.

[Chris Ryan]

We have to get to this because, you know, when we didn't do the pit last week because I chose to center hockey.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you for taking ownership.

[Chris Ryan]

I was like, it's okay. Because I don't really feel like anything super significant happened on the Pit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

And now if you took that episode from last week and this episode from. With this week and put it together, we need to talk about the Robbie situation. Because it's screaming. It's screaming. It was a. It was a background note, right? Then they put it up in the mix and now it's like Steve Albini's kick drums. It's like, you cannot ignore this. Did you download. Did you buy from Bandcamp the Albini version of in on the Killtaker Fugazi? No, not yet.

[Andy Greenwald]

No. I'm saving up.

[Chris Ryan]

As soon as you finish. As soon as you finish the fucking. The Tolkien books. You got.

[Andy Greenwald]

I got the. No, I got to finish this pitch dog for the West Coast Avengers reboot. Just trying to get my guys at Marvel to really take it. Take me seriously.

[Chris Ryan]

Two wonderful episodes. But I think the big headline coming out of it for me has been Robby's behavior over the line last couple of episodes. So he's given up his apartment to Whitaker in the future, but, like, you know, he's like, hey, you can stay at my place while I'm on my motorcycle. Road trip.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which also, by the way, has been a very overt. That's an overt statement of what has been going on behind the scenes, which is that he clearly feels that Whitaker is his mini me and is sort

[Chris Ryan]

of behind the scenes on the show, though not like behind the scenes like on the Pit. Noah Wylie is like, this dude is him.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no, no. Although possibly he's quite a supportive boss, I believe. But I mean, on the show, like, he. Even in this. This week's epis with his buddy Duke.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

He introduces Whitaker as one of our most accomplished emotionally.

[Chris Ryan]

So he gives up his apartment to Whitaker. I. If you rewatch it now, like the goodbye to Jack, when Jack's like, I'm gonna. I'm punching out before I have to punch back in again.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, great scene, Great scene.

[Chris Ryan]

Kind of weird, kind of. Kind of like a little bit more final than you would kind of. Well, he's like, am I really not going to see you again? It's like. It's like a strange kind of vibe to it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, it also is baked into the DNA of these characters who we first met when Robbie was kinda sorta talking Jack down from the roof of the hospital.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, there is a morbid streak. They live on the edge in their relationship.

[Chris Ryan]

He has shown a general like, not my problem energy. I think in terms of some of the, like in the first season, everything that's happening in the emergency department seems to affect him almost on an, on an emotional, like on a foundational level, you know what I mean? Especially the interference by the executives and

[Andy Greenwald]

the aging father.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I still think he has his touch with patients, but not with patients when they happen to work for him. Where this episode, Mohan has a panic attack after, you know, repeated calls for her mother.

[Andy Greenwald]

And also what's the, what's the prescription for that? Sorry, go on.

[Chris Ryan]

And she's also like behind on her applying for a fellowship. And he dresses her down in a way that even like all the people in the, in the, in the department notice, including Dana, who's just like, what's that about? Yeah, so I just find his, I find his behavior odd now. I think that this is just a great development for the character. Yeah, it's been fantastic and fantastically rolled out in like a, in a really well paced way. What's your read on what is happening here?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, there's a couple different ways to look at it. One is to remember that within the context of the show he might just have senioritis. This is his last day before a much deserved vacation and it happens to be yet another in an increasingly bleak series of days from hell. So I don't necessarily blame him for being a little bit of a short fuse about it, particularly because as we know, he has not necessarily a messianic complex, but he does have control issues and believes that he is keeping this thing together. And so it is threatening to his well being and sense of self that he might not be necessary because then what is he good for? So just on a surface level you can accept that. Then you also have to understand that I don't mean you. I mean when watching that this is. He's the main character and star of the show and executive producer and one of the writers and an occasional director. And so despite the fact that he is quite, I believe, a democratic leader and shares the wealth, this show is this man's story as much as it is the story of the emergency room. So it has to be pushing him in a different direction than he had been before. And it's interesting to see in the context of the first season, which set up the day being an enormous trauma trigger with all of the COVID flashbacks and his mentor and everything, that in the end, I mean, it was a challenging day and his mentor's son's girlfriend died. And that was hideous and traumatic and violent and awful. His low point, if you remember, was just five minutes of collapse in one of the rooms when Whitaker finds him and Whitaker finds him. And so that's an intimacy that they share, even if it's not referred to. I bring that up because I think in watching the first season, especially the first season of a show that was not guaranteed multiple seasons, the way the show now is, I thought we were heading towards a much more significant dark existential. Not that he would die or something, but that he would be incapacitated or fail and there would have to be a reckoning. That's not what happened. So it does seem like, in a slightly different, rhythmic way, we're building towards that this season. What I do not think we are building to. Despite the loud revving of Chekhov's motorcycle.

[Chris Ryan]

You're on the same websites I am on. Is Robbie gonna die this season?

[Andy Greenwald]

Which camera? No. Like, I know that television and all entertainment works on, you know, suspension of disbelief, but as I just alluded to, Noah Wylie is the Ducati engine that fuels this generational success that the show already is.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

He is not leaving the show. It doesn't work like that. So I hope that doesn't rob anyone of excitement or, you know, of anticipation. Could he get in an accident? Could his face.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. Could he have a nervous breakdown? Could he? Could he. Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Could the season end with a cliffhanger of we just got word that he crashed somewhere outside of Montreal? Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

That would be. He would be making incredible time if he got from Pittsburgh to Montreal within the parameters of this season of television.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a great point.

[Chris Ryan]

And if he did get in a crash driving that fast, there would be no coming back.

[Andy Greenwald]

So do you.

[Chris Ryan]

That would be like, like, like if Tron crashed. You know what I mean?

[Andy Greenwald]

What if Duke was his late cycle pal and it was just yet another opportunity for corporate synergy? Yeah, that'd be. Honestly, that would be sick. Yeah, I don't. Okay, fair enough. Maybe somewhere in Lackawanna, I was talking

[Chris Ryan]

with Joanna Robinson about this. Joe and Rob are also recapping the pit every week on the Prestige TV podcast. And we were batting around worst case, best case, realistic case scenarios for what's happening here. And she actually, I hope she doesn't mind me saying this was like, what if Noah Wylie wanted to take a kind of more behind the scenes role in the third season and basically, like, Jack is Robbie next season and Robbie is Jack, where he's like, at the end of the shift, I come in or whatever. It's my first day back after my accident or my own breakdown. I also think that there are threads connecting Robbie and Langdon, who before Whitaker was the prince who was promised, and Robbie's refusal to kind of give Langdon the resolution he craves with making amends. That might be like, you know, be careful what you wish for. Cause you may be asking for the same kind of grace later. I'm just throwing out ideas.

[Andy Greenwald]

I like that. I would predict. Here's the thing about the Pit that sometimes is dazzling or dazzling in a way that is both exciting, entertaining, but also can take your eyes away from the fundamental truth of the show, which is that so much of it is still conventional. That's a good thing in the case of the Pit. But, like, this is a show that even in the midst of these remarkable creative pirouettes, a character goes, do cyber attacks happen often in hospitals? Like, it still does that? Like it's still. That's still the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it's okay to sometimes do Occam's Scalpel and just be like, robbie's gonna get in a bit of a pickle before the season's over and Langdon will have to save him. Like, it could just be that.

[Chris Ryan]

Could be.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is one of the low murmurings of story throughout the season, that we'll get some sort of payoff. I also. Not to be overly cynical, but it's hard to be overly cynical in these times. This is a Warner Brothers show in these times.

[Chris Ryan]

Like Middle Earth, you know, in the second age.

[Andy Greenwald]

Of the second age. I want to say Isringhausen. What was his name?

[Chris Ryan]

Isildur.

[Andy Greenwald]

Dude, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Whatever, man. You're trying to shame me. You're never gonna shame me about this. I remember a character from the first Hobbit movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's. That's cool, man. Yeah, that's great. Proud of you. Just a little. This and the slop bowl. We're getting there. We're getting towards something. I guess what I'm trying to say is the Pit is extremely creative and nimble and takes chances and is rewarded for those chances that it has taken. And it's already, you know, it feels like it's been part of our lives for a while, but it's only been a season and a half of television. That said, it is one of the most crucial flagship shows of the Warner Brothers Discovery operation as it attempts to dry dock onto Paramount. And that is not overstatement. Like, HBO Max is debuting in the UK and Ireland, and it Is debuting with season one of the Pit. Like, they held that show back so that they could premiere with it when it hits.

[Chris Ryan]

When it hits the aisles, they're gonna freak out. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

They're gonna be like, well, we should. We really do have a special relationship with this fail state. They can't even fund their hospitals. My point is, they couldn't get away with a lot of stuff because of the goodwill they built up, the success they've had creatively, the awards they bring in, the attention they've brought to the platform, the stabilization they've brought to the platform, the awards they have won and will continue to win. But if you walk into. Not Casey's office, David Zaslav's office, which he's outfitting with new gold drapes, having, you know, done the con of the century and put people out of work and enriched himself beyond any known possible measure, congratulations. That's the point of capitalism. And you say, no, Wylie's not gonna be on season three of the show. That might get him some pushback.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. There's some other storylines that I think are really illustrative of the really beautiful job they're doing writing this piece this season. Alashimi. Alashimi, who I think has drawn some criticism for being a bit stiff as a character. And perhaps.

[Andy Greenwald]

Was I drawing the criticism across the

[Chris Ryan]

table, Perhaps a bit on the nose with her belief system when it comes to the role of AI and generative. AI, you know, in the. Not generative. AI, Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, Generative.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I thought it was agentic. I thought it was just supposed to help you. Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't. Well, why do I ask?

[Andy Greenwald]

Jenny Slate.

[Chris Ryan]

She wants AI in the. In the emergency department. And she's just a little stiff, but all the other doctors seem to dig her, except for Robbie. Over the last couple of weeks, it has been pointed out that she had not done many procedures or any procedures other than.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

The examination on Dana's rape victim.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And the. And some baby stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

Some baby stuff. But had not done. She was more like calling shots from the. From the sideline rather than getting in there. The way Robbie and Abbott.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think she's clawed? Do you think she's.

[Chris Ryan]

But did you watch her do the trach thing?

[Andy Greenwald]

The slash trick?

[Chris Ryan]

The slash trick. First of all, like as many people have pointed out, if you go and do any reading about what. What was happening when she was in Afghanistan and with Doctors Without Borders.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

She was probably working for a maternity hospital that was bombed, I believe. Is this story. And so obviously, she's dealing with PTSD from that. But clear, like, you know, a shaky, cutting hand based on everything that she's seen. But when she does this trach, it's like, this knows her stuff. And everybody in the is like, I've never seen that before.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So that was pretty cool. And the way that they are not only developing that side of her, but even her reaction to Garcia, who is the sort of head surgeon.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

When she walks in is just like, what did you use a bone saw or something? Or like, whatever she said we talked about a few weeks ago, she's just like, I just saved their life.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. She says, they'll be thrilled to clean up your mess. And she said, I think they'll be. Maybe they'll thank us for not letting him die.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And you can see as she walks out the door, her, like, shoulders sag a little bit. Like, she's just like. It's getting to her, too.

[Andy Greenwald]

Now, she also says that she has never actually done one of these before. She had just done it, like, on a simulator, maybe. Oh, you think that might not be.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder.

[Andy Greenwald]

She also. The other thing that I felt a little bit was that seemed like battlefield

[Chris Ryan]

surgery to me, for sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

That felt like something that the stuff that Abbott was doing in the previous season. She's also the one who, despite being essentially a robot for eight episodes, pulls Robbie aside and is just like, be nicer to your staff.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

So she has depth. She has layers.

[Chris Ryan]

Speaking of being nice, there's two ways of reading what's going on with Santos right now. One is that the accumulation of stress over the course of a really tough day is forcing her to backslide, maybe into poor habits about her workplace demeanor and eye rolling and snapping at people. The other one would be the writers are just more comfortable with her being a mild antagonist. And so I thought she was warmer with Whitaker. She was warmer with some of her colleagues. I think she was a little bit more vulnerable. She's still Santos. She's still just like, I want to be. You know, I want. I basically want to be the best, but, like, has a little bit of a brusque manner to her. Do you think this is more like they're just comfortable having that performer in this character be.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a good questional or, you know, I would say. And I should have said this at the top. I loved last week's episode. I thought this week's was one of the weakest of the season.

[Chris Ryan]

Interesting.

[Andy Greenwald]

And one of the reasons is these are not new complaints. These are not fatal complaints. These are things that exist in the show and when more attention is drawn to them. I remember that I have a couple issues, and one of them is Langdon's return. His recovery arc is very, very compelling and good drama, good character stuff. Langdon himself and is also very. Well, we've talked about this before. Patrick Ball, I think, is a really talented actor. He is also very, very pretty and very, very lovable with his puppy dog eyes that. Cause, you know, incredibly intoxicated young college girls with severed tongues do moon over him.

[Chris Ryan]

They do.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's not a single moment in Langdon's performance appearance where I worry that he's gonna backslide into being some sort of addict. It's just not written into the character or in the performance. So not everyone. The fact that one of the most reliable drumbeats of this season is that Robbie and Santos fucking hate him and don't trust him.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, Santos hates him for a reason, you know? Cause if she was wrong, that would have been the end of her career. And he put her in that position.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not saying it's not legitimate. I'm saying that that drumbeat is not as successful to me because Langdon is just walking around like a puppy dog, being an absolute saint to people on the spectrum and anyone else that crosses his path. Is that more or less realistic? I don't know. But it's the way that the character is written and the way that the character is played. So the downside of that decision or the downstream effects of that decision is that Santos feels like she's backsliding, that she's just being petulant, that she's just being annoying. And I think that's not a successful box for the actor or character to be in. The show moves so fast that all of this can be forgotten.

[Chris Ryan]

And this episode specifically does move fast because there's been a water park disaster. Goddammit.

[Andy Greenwald]

True. It. Also, I did want to just note that Garcia, who's making a lot of appearances this season, says to Santos that she's done talking about Langdon. And this is a quote. If you're looking for someone to eat ramen in bed with and have sex, I'm your girl. Yeah, I'm no Monty hall, but take the deal. You know what I mean? Like, that is a strong. Again, I'm not Monty Hall. I'm not Howie Roseman.

[Chris Ryan]

For you, it would be. If you're looking for somebody to eat just a beautiful, clean piece of fish and watch Moon Knight reruns.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no, Read back issues. You know what I mean? You don't want and not ramen because you don't want broth splatter.

[Chris Ryan]

You don't want ramen hands on your sacred Moon Knight tastes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Now. I'm gonna jump in here. Sorry to be that guy, but you don't traditionally eat ramen with your hands.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but sometimes you get a little splash, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Not if you do it right. Moon Knight's costume was immaculate.

[Chris Ryan]

So is the white wizard Gandalf when he comes back.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who do you think would win the fight?

[Chris Ryan]

He was the gray, and then he turns into the white when he gets back from the Balrog fall that he has.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or he's just trying to, like, you know, go with the political winds.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, right.

[Andy Greenwald]

White Gandalf. No more woke Gandalf Nuance.

[Chris Ryan]

Tell me more about why you didn't like this episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's a structural reason. Two structural reasons and a personal reason. Tell me both the two structural reasons are the pit coaster of the season. This is a me thing, not a

[Chris Ryan]

the pit water slide of the season.

[Andy Greenwald]

Perhaps this is a me thing, not a show thing. I think we were conditioned by the first season to expect calm morning and then all hell to break loose. The cyber attack happens, and we're like, hell has arrived. But in fact, they are incredible. They adjust. Things are stressful, but they are basically, you know, we're all getting our prescription nicotine patches, and we get through it.

[Chris Ryan]

Whatever. If I heard Dana say that correctly, that it is a 20 milligram patch. That woman should just smoke. She does, but she should just do it in the ER, right? We should just go back to 19. I don't know when the last time you were able to smoke in a

[Andy Greenwald]

hospital was, but in Pittsburgh, it's surprisingly so. I think that the sort of up and down, like, anticipation. The episode ends last week like, there has been a catastrophe at the water park. Oh, they did a little. They did a little. What do you call it? Shell game and tricked us. It wasn't the cyberattack. It was this. That comes on the heels of it. And then, though catastrophic, it appears to be two hideous injuries and casualties. And then we're on to the next thing. So I think I was a little rhythmically out of sync with the episode. The other thing was I compliment the show for this. So I'm not gonna be inconsistent and say that I think that it wasn't worth the swing, but. But the way that they have found these pockets of. We're gonna do a quiet moment or a Quiet Runner through an otherwise stressful episode. It's been incredible to watch and very successful throughout the season. I thought the attempts to make this the mom's episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Roxy Javadi Mohan's mom, I thought was

[Andy Greenwald]

a little clunky, and you could feel the intention in ways that didn't fully pay off.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's weird. It's like three makes a trend to make it work. If they had just done Roxy and Giovanni, or that would have probably been enough because it's like Giovanni is actually working with Roxy and obviously is going through an emotional reaction kind of seeing this. But that's a good point.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, again, there's nothing wrong with it. The show attempts to do things that lesser shows would never even attempt to do, and I admire it for it. This one didn't work for me and the other. But the ultimate one was, you know, I can deal with a lot of, like, I don't mind seeing the vocal cords or the debrading of finger flesh, but this was hitting my particular vagus nerve center of saying goodbye to children and worrying about children.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought you were gonna talk about the leg getting cut off.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it's fine.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

You got two, you know. No, like that.

[Chris Ryan]

Can you imagine, though, looking over and somebody's like, washing your leg with saline.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, of all the things you could be doing with my severed leg, that's probably top three.

[Chris Ryan]

It's probably what Joe Theisman felt like.

[Andy Greenwald]

God, you've crossed the line, sir.

[Chris Ryan]

When LT hit him, you knew what

[Andy Greenwald]

I was talking about. Yeah, I remember. I didn't think it was like some random Monday Night Football broadcast. He's like, how'd I get in this position?

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Anyway, that's just like, that.

[Chris Ryan]

That's tough for me, you know, that I'm not loving. I, I. The Roxy storyline is, is done. Well, this is the cancer patient mother.

[Andy Greenwald]

The show doesn't blink, man. I appreciate that.

[Chris Ryan]

I am a little surprised that they are, under the circumstances. They are just like, yep, you can just hang out in the er. Generally is not my experience, but so be it. And it's. It's very well done. It's. It's become my, My kind of like, I'm like, all right, I'm gonna, like, kind of maybe look at my phone for a second. Just be. But that's just because of personal stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Which, again, I think we both admire the show for doing. Like, I think I'll repeat myself. But, like, if the pitch for the show as we understood it was, it would be like, er, but gorier and more intense in the way that we can do with prestige tv. I think we all undersold the idea that they would also be able to do the flip side of that, which is actually consider life, death, dignity, and the choices that we make, you know, in those moments. So I admire it, but it's a tough watch.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, well, we can put a pin in the pit there. Was there anything else you wanted to talk about with it? Mel's deposition? I don't really have a comment on.

[Andy Greenwald]

I did. I'm so happy we didn't see it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. My God, dude, that was awesome that

[Andy Greenwald]

we didn't see it.

[Chris Ryan]

Although that would be an interesting wrinkle for the show to be like the pit attorneys at law.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, that's the spinoff. They could do that. Medical lawyers. But I'm glad they didn't do it this episode. What about. I'm gonna ask you this. I know industry ended 10 days ago, but. Chris, is ketamine having a moment?

[Chris Ryan]

I had no idea it was so prevalent. I mean, obviously, like, you hear about it as, like, a therapeutic and. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And we go to Bergain all the

[Chris Ryan]

time and we see it and then as a party drug. But I did not know that they were just pumping people full of K before they amputated or reattached. Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

You can use it both ways. Get it off, get it back on.

[Chris Ryan]

Turns out the horses were living right the whole time.

[Andy Greenwald]

It makes me feel okay. I have a lot of thoughts about that. It makes me feel better about the whole luck thing on hbo.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, because I assume that those horses, though, they died.

[Chris Ryan]

They're no longer with us.

[Andy Greenwald]

They're no longer with us. But at least they were. You know, their nervous systems were. They died.

[Chris Ryan]

Going to see Fred again and Thomas

[Andy Greenwald]

Bonkalter visions of them. It does make me have questions about Shailene, Woodley's favorite horse in Graceland in Paradise, who runs away during the apocalypse and runs back three years later looking none the worse for wear. It ran in search of the ketamine, found it, and just nuzzled around in it.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you want to just jump to paradise now and then?

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you have any Dr. Mohan stuff?

[Chris Ryan]

I worry that her mom is calling a lot so that there's probably something up with her. I don't think she's just calling to be like, I can't get the TV to not mute.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think, in the spirit of the show's inclusion of family members, that Dr. Mohan's mother also has a UTI from having lots of sexual Jesus. Do you think that everyone's loved ones are just out there?

[Chris Ryan]

You're referring to Mel's sister getting after it. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that that's what's going to bring him into the er? Yeah, just too much. Like a hot summer weekend.

[Chris Ryan]

New Jersey. I think Mohan's mother is somewhere else. Like her. Her mother is like, not in Pittsburgh, I don't think.

[Andy Greenwald]

What if she rode the Robbie Express and got there really fast? Let's say you. You have. You're a social guy. You have a lot of friends, are you not? What? A social guy or one of your friends?

[Chris Ryan]

A social guy. What are you talking about? Just because we disagree about the importance of Isildur doesn't mean we're not friends.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm just saying that the Middle Earth community that you're a part of, I think, you know, lifts you up during lonely moments. You have people to talk to. You have the horse ladies of Rohan to chat with. You know, with all their ketamine.

[Chris Ryan]

I think there was only one horse lady.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought they were a whole. See again, you would know.

[Chris Ryan]

Miranda Otto played the horse lady of Rohan.

[Andy Greenwald]

That sounds like the crazy old lady with the horse. I thought that she was part of like a tribe of warrior women.

[Chris Ryan]

No, it's mostly dudes because she's all frustrated that the women in Rohan are not allowed to go out and be cavalry officers.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

She's like, I'm here to worry about men, but I can fight. And then she fucking does when she kills. That the flapping.

[Andy Greenwald]

Why don't you say its name, Chris?

[Chris Ryan]

What is it called? Winged Beast. Lord of the Rings.

[Andy Greenwald]

It definitely auto filled that for you.

[Chris Ryan]

Nazgul. Fuck, I'm gonna be so embarrassed by that.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's really embarrassing, Chris.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not gonna be able to show my face at the next gathering. The Nazgul, she kills Nazgul.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which, great kudos to her. I always said that women could kill Nazguls. Just so you know, I am a hashtag ally in Middle Earth, Upper Earth, Lower Earth, whatever. People know that about me. My point is, if one of your. The people in your life was like, do you mind if I bring my friend to the function? And then they show up with Duke? What is your. What are you thinking?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, Duke seems like a great hang.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's my question.

[Chris Ryan]

What would you do?

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I would just be. It would shade my understanding of my.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I wouldn't bring Duke to your kid's birthday party, but I would bring Duke if, like, you were like, I'm having drinks and everybody's invited.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm having drinks and smokes. I would invite Duke. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

All right.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm glad you don't judge Duke or Robbie for his presence in your life.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by Brooks Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.

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[Chris Ryan]

Here's what happens with modern television. You blink and five episodes are up. And that's the case with Paradise. That will be the case next week with the Madison. I believe tomorrow they're putting up or tonight they're putting up three episodes of this new Taylor Sheridan show and then they are finishing it the next week with another three episodes. That's their Kurt Russell Michelle Pfeiffer show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just put a pin in this to say they filmed two seasons of the Madison a year apart. Two six season episodes, waited till they were in the can and now they're releasing them in a yearly schedule. And Pluribus should have done that. That's my Galaxy take.

[Chris Ryan]

Then we probably would have gotten pluribus until like 27. And it doesn't sound like Vince Gilligan is like I Got Pluribus Season 2 written.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh no, I know. But I'm wondering if we can save this for a bigger conversation about these release dates. But like, like what's the trade off and what's better?

[Chris Ryan]

We're just so fully divorced from like the rhythm of Once a week, you know, when you're not on HBO pretty much now, like, except for like the Boys and a couple of other shows, like weekly drops are not really a thing. I can see why they did it with Paradise.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, paradise dropped three and we're already two weeks past that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. You've watched the first three, I've watched the first four. We're not gonna spoil anything about it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, not gonna spoil anything major, but I think we are gonna talk about why they dropped three and where the show focuses. That has expanded the palette since season one.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

If you don't mind.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

The first season of the show was batshit crazy and we liked it for that.

[Chris Ryan]

And then it had an episode in particular that we thought was elite and

[Andy Greenwald]

about the end of the world.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And this season, I mean, I don't even know if we wanna go specific, granular or big picture, because.

[Chris Ryan]

Big picture, because I think Monday, if we talk about the first five episodes, I think that would be a similar discussion.

[Andy Greenwald]

I really enjoyed watching this show and I really enjoyed how anachronistic and old fashioned it felt to watch the show. Not dissimilar from what it can feel like to watch the Pit. Not because they are similar shows in tone or rhythm or intention, but because a big old sloppy. We're gonna wind all these different outlandish plot threads together and we're just gonna keep saying yes and yes and. And we're gonna do flashbacks and we're gonna make everything emotionally convenient so that it chimes across timelines in ways that just life actually doesn't work. It reminded me of the glory days of Lost. Now it's not Lost.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not Lost, but I think it's very consciously drawing from Lost structurally.

[Andy Greenwald]

And let me just in the context

[Chris Ryan]

of the first, maybe not spiritually and philosophically, but I think it's drawing from like the balance of a present day timeline and a flashback coming together to thematically tell a story about one character every episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it keeps pushing it in ways that I really admire. And the people who are making the show really know how to make TV in a style that is kind of out of fashion. First season, I don't think it's a big spoiler, but Serling K. Brown is a Secret Service agent in a beautiful retirement community Florida town, and he's protecting the President. And then over the course of the season you find out that essentially the world has ended due to a catastrophic environmental disaster. And these are the 25,000 people who made it to a bunker created by the US Government. Yep. The end of the season, in addition to a lot of other insane things happening, he believes that his wife, who did not make it to the bunker with him and the kids, may still be alive out there in Atlanta. In Atlanta. And he. He takes off in a single engine airplane to go find her. This season begins with Shailene Woodley as a failed resident at the Pit. I believe there was a little overlap there.

[Chris Ryan]

Medical school dropout who was in her

[Andy Greenwald]

third year of medical school, who chooses to instead become a tour guide at Graceland, and due to her medical training, or just her natural loner sensibilities, survives the catastrophe with her, her pal, security guard, by grabbing all of the baked beans and novelty candles and hiding in the TV room at Graceland. It's a big swing for a returning Emmy nominated show to do something where you start with a different character and only connecting the dots at the end and then only getting really to the setting of the first season in the third episode. So that's why you were saying, and I agree with you, why they dropped three to sort of hold people's hands. But I gotta say, there's just something very, very entertaining about a show that privileges, almost to an unrealistic degree, privileges character development and emotional accuracy, or at least emotional, broad emotional accuracy over realism. Like when I watched this first episode, and you can speak more in more detail about it if you want, but I watched this first episode where she survives the apocalypse for three years, basically alone. Two or three years. And then armed men, you know, break down and crash into Graceland looking for something. And it turns out not only are they all young, good looking and kind and love to reference pop culture, but one of them is played by the guy who played young Captain Hook in the Descendants movies.

[Chris Ryan]

Thomas Doherty. Yeah, he was in Tell Me Lies and in Gossip Girl too.

[Andy Greenwald]

But mostly he was in the Descendants movies. And he's like flirty and charming and it's like a sweet meet cute romance. And I watched this and I was like, you know what? This is fucking a lot better than the Last of Us. Because we have seen the version where the raiders come and sexually assault her and steal everything and she must hunt them down in vengeance. I'm like, give me this version of the show instead. Sure, why not? Entertain me, for God's sake. Don't bum me out.

[Chris Ryan]

I was watching that same episode and that same kind of move that they pull, which is like, we're gonna make these guys look like the Reavers are here, you know, and instead they're just a charming bunch of guys who make references to ABC Family Fun Friday or whatever and tgif. Tgif, sorry.

[Andy Greenwald]

And they're going around trying to, like, stop nuclear meltdowns.

[Chris Ryan]

Friday was a big night for me. I was out, you know, I was out on the streets.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're at the Tolkien conventions, cosplaying hobbits.

[Chris Ryan]

And the question I have is whether or not the zag is because of a story a person wants to tell or a zag is because it's like, everybody's gonna be expecting this, but we're gonna do that, right? Every single episode of this show, especially this season, has some like, God damn, you guys are. This is happening. You guys are doing this now. Like, there was a. There's another plan. There's a group of Lost boys. There's.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, you're just like. It engages the part of your brain that is. I guess it just wipes out the boredom. Because I don't know whether or not I ever feel like he's trying to say something more profound about humanity, but I honestly don't give a shit because it is. Sometimes it is just TV. And I'm like, keep me entertained for 57 minutes. And the performances are. Are good. The filmmaking is decent, like, and the storytelling is really, really compelling.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's also okay. And this also overlaps with the pit. Like, it's okay to say that one of the reasons why we as a society, as a people often like the entertainment that we like is because it is neat and ordered and competent and clicks together in ways that that actual real life does not. You and I both love a let's turn the camera on and find the spirit of the thing. Like, we, you know, you are a big mumble core guy like this. I am not trying to be like, anti art here, but there is also an elegance and a craftsmanship in making an episode about Xavier surviving a plane crash and an encounter with the Lost Boys and popping his dislocated kneecap in without anesthesia. Rhyme perfectly with his meet cute origin story in a hospital with his missing wife.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, that is preposterous. It is hackneyed. And yet they were like, let's steer towards this and give the best version of it. And I admire it. I look at that episode the way Nick Offerman looks at a nicely made canoe or a chair. Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Me too. And like, the thing about this show is it's not very wasteful. Like, there are a lot of shows that I think are, like, enamored with Indulgences that they get because of maybe their budget or whatever this show. It's like if he asks for a blanket, it's because he's gonna give the woman the blanket later. You know what I mean? Everything is Chekhov's everything. There's not really that many wasted lines. Everybody is saying the one anecdote that will then echo back at the end of the episode to be some sort of life lesson. I think it's really well done and I'm really enjoying the season. The first three episodes go, we have this Shailene Woodley character, Annie. We get it. Xavier episode in the second. And then we basically get a Sinatra episode in the third episode. So as Julian Nicholson, Julia Nicholson's back, took that shot to the sternum.

[Andy Greenwald]

And was it sternum or was it kind of like looked like she kind of had like an improvised slash trach done to her?

[Chris Ryan]

Whatever it was. Yes. And crazy ass Jane the assassin Secret Service agent still in the mix. And I like that. Like, like I, I just love the guessing game and I, I think it's just like a really entertaining TV show. Honestly. I, I don't have like a.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's. It's okay that it is not trying to educate us on the evil that we are capable of or where we are as a society or anything. It's just like, it's just some preposterous Jenga tower stacking of story and plot anchored by, like I said at the top, like some attempt to adhere to emotional honesty or compelling, relatable emotional journeys. And that's the bread and butter of tv. And we get away from that.

[Chris Ryan]

We've gotten away from industry.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh gosh, we can happen to the mailbag.

[Chris Ryan]

Let me just do this because I think actually what I tried to do is grab. Thank you so much for your questions. First of all. And people were sending in questions over the course of the season. We got to some of them. Some of your questions were about episode six or episode seven. These are mostly post season questions that I grabbed. And I'll start here with. And I, I grabbed these questions with the intention of kind of like spinning the conversation forward on industry so that we're not just kind of like revisiting things that we've obviously talked about quite a bit. Scott wrote in and he said I'm a first time commenter and a longtime listener. So anyway, at the end of season four, episode eight, right after they flash the title card industry, there is a very quick subliminal image of a very sinister looking Whitney Y. It's kind of bathed in this reddish light. Did you guys catch that? Thoughts? I did catch it. I also caught Mickey Down's explanation of it in another interview, which I thought I would share. It's Whitney looking through a glory hole. We shot this entire scene to do with glory holes. I didn't know that there was like. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is it sightseeing?

[Chris Ryan]

We haven't gotten to that part of Lord of the Rings. We shot this entire scene of him in Lithuania having escaped, where he's talking to a man at the bar. The implication being, is that man a potential lover or is it something that's going to be a threat? And you leave him on this moment where he follows this guy into the bathroom and the guy says, come in here and there's a glory hole. And we shot Whitney through it. If you were eagle eyed, you'll see it. We used one frame of it. Basically, I bring this up not only to explain to Scott what happened, I'm sure he's come across this information as well, but also that there's just like a lot of industry footage we didn't get to see.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I'm glad you bring it up. I think that's something, you know. And we will get a chance, I'm sure, to talk to Mickey and Conrad again. But we were relatively limited in the time we had with them because they're busy with season five and we didn't really get to ask that line of questioning that I think was interesting to both of us, which is, it seems like from the interviews with Ken Leung and from interviews like this that they shot a lot of stuff that they didn't use. And I'm very curious about creatively, the thinking behind that. Is that just their plan? Do they like to overshoot and pare back? Were they surprised that they ended up in that pickle because of the crush of production and the Chinese, they just ended up with more than they anticipated. What is their compass in deciding how close to the bone to cut it? Because again, in that Ken Lung exit interview that he did with New York Magazine, he alludes to a lot of scenes that helped him with his understanding of the character and of the performance. And we got none of them. And look, you love sculpture. Sculpture is all about taking away and finding the art within. But also that is a very tricky balance Sometimes. Maybe the ellipses aren't enough. All that is to say, I did not leave that finale being like, give me more Whitney in Lithuania. But I think that the inclusion of it is intentional and it does Create the, I think, the fair expectation that that story isn't done, which is consistent with the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Jesse Bloom mentioned in one of the last episodes of this previous season, no one ever really dies on the show.

[Andy Greenwald]

People come back, people show up, people haunt. And I think that's. That's exciting.

[Chris Ryan]

Summit asks, here's something I was wondering about. Am I the only person who was assuming that Whitney's compromat database included footage of him and Harper, especially since they had sex at his place? And Mr. Narrative is everything would use this footage as another desperation play in an attempt to flip the script about Sterntau. Short of tender, I have to admit I was kind of surprised that this was never really explicitly referenced. Yeah, Again, I mean, like, they have that obviously intimate conversation.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Frankly, if they had had that conversation having never met, I think it would have been just as weird and interesting. Maybe the intimacy of it is a little bit too much, given that they had never met in person. It makes sense, knowing that they've had sex. I do think it's strange that if Whitney is powered by all this blackmail and all this power that he holds over people is footage of them having compromising experiences and now Yasmine is moving into that world herself. I'm a little bit surprised that that was never hinted at.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is a ongoing aspect of our conversation and our criticism of the show, which is how much of this is Galaxy Brain. Like, we're supposed to think that we're supposed to wonder what he has in his back pocket, the dominoes left to fall. And then again, and this is not a criticism, there are necessary building blocks of contemporary dramatic television, and one of them, especially in the early going of such a challenging blueprint for a season, is you have to get the characters in the same room. You have to get them to meet each other. My more cynical take on the first half of the season that I'm still, you know, I still stand by was that there were a lot of chess moves that were purely to ground things and to set things up rather than to pay off emotionally. And one of them was Harper. Honestly, she haunted the season, as we said to them in our interview, a little bit like a ghost without consequences, really, and without a lot of stake in anything. And so crossing her with Whitney felt like an attempt to ground her, to connect them, to give it a reason to spark the engine of the season in a way, and also to give us some behind the scenes insight into Whitney's psychology and who he is before we understand the depths of his

[Chris Ryan]

alternative

[Andy Greenwald]

lifestyles, alternative lifestyles, but also of his, potentially of his, of his evil. And then we never hear from it again. So you could argue both ways and we'll see.

[Chris Ryan]

And just so everybody knows, I'm condensing these questions for clarity in time, you know, like some of them are much

[Andy Greenwald]

longer and there is much like industry season four. You're leaving a lot on the cutting room.

[Chris Ryan]

I will say if we have time at the end, I want to read a rather long but quite gripping just piece of commentary that someone sent in.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh boy.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. Ryan writes in post finale. Oh, sorry, yeah. Ryan writes in post finale of season four. I'm doing some brainstorming on what season five could be about and I think it has to be at its core about Harper, quote unquote, killing Yaz. Harper versus Yaz is what this show has turned into and it should end with that as its core narrative. What does quote killing mean? Not sure as it is whether it's physically the end of a life or just bring her to her knees and stop her from continuing the evolution of her becoming her father. Maybe Rob comes back to help her bring to help bring her down. Stefanowicz is mentioned. Stefanowicz. Stefanowicz. Stefanowitz, Stefanowitz. Stefanowitz has mentioned Silicon Valley in his and Yaz's first meeting. But unless we do a five year jump, I think that the season would be centered around a political fight with money driving the center of the battle, obviously. Have you given much thought about season five? Or are you just like these guys now are in? They've left Purepoint and they have left the workplace so they could do anything they want.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's more that than the other. I think there's two things. One is post finale, my admiration and respect for the season has grown. We talked about it when we were recapping the end of it. They accomplished one of the more challenging transitions that a TV show can attempt to become something completely different and did so with adding viewers, adding intrigue, adding layers to the story. And by the way, I've seen people completely misconstrue what we were saying. At no point were either of us saying that industry is the heir to the Wire or on the same level as the Wire in terms of quality or ambition. We were saying, was it? Clearly the Wire is an interesting comparison point for what their goals are in terms of building a fictional society layer by layer. That's purely what I'm saying when I make that comparison. So back to your question. Here's the challenge I think that they face going into season five. I mean, they could do anything, which is both exciting and a challenge. I think that what's very, very clear to me and what I love about the show and our journey with the show and covering the show is that it is so clearly now a successful vehicle for what animates and interests its creators. And there are no ceiling on that anymore in terms of where it could go and what it could say about our absolutely cooked society. I love that. What I don't know and what I think might be very, very difficult for them to navigate is it's rare to enter the fifth and final season or the final season of anything where I cannot articulate what its protagonist wants. I don't know what Harper wants. And that has been an ongoing thing. Harper has been about world eating, about domination, about crushing, about not conforming, about not breaking, about not being traumatized. Those are a lot of no, no, no's or everythings. What is the yes. What is the thing that she wants that will bring her to a place of either to a place of completion and success? Daniel Plainview style.

[Chris Ryan]

Why does it have to be success?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm saying it doesn't have to be. Bring her to the edge of it so we understand it and then we can sit with ultimately the achievement or the lack of achievement of it. It's just that may be.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, what is she going for?

[Andy Greenwald]

So the fact that we don't know that heading into the last season is. It's just noteworthy. It doesn't mean they can't pull it off. But I think that every successful ongoing show of this era, like, even something like Mad Men, which spent. Honestly. I mean, it's one of the greatest shows of all time. But there were seasons that felt like circling the drain where Don was just like, well, now he's swimming and now he's sleeping with this person. And every season, Matt Weiner would be like, I'm gonna empty the notebook. And I've always thought the show would end with him bringing his kids to Dick Whitman's house.

[Chris Ryan]

And that's like in the first season.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it's season five or six. He brings to the.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, brings him to the house.

[Andy Greenwald]

The house. And so what was left in the notebook or in the mind for season seven? Unclear. But we always knew what was motivating him and where he wanted to get to. This is not Mad Men. It doesn't have to be. I think the success of this season has proven that they are rewriting the rule book or even the playbook of what shows ought to be. But I Just I know with interest that we're heading into it without really understanding what its protagonist is going to be doing at the start of the season.

[Chris Ryan]

Jessica writes all three. Watching season four, the show has felt a little unmoored to me. And then it clicked that Pierpoint as a workplace is no longer a physical anchor for the characters and story to keep coming Back to. Seasons 1 through 3 were clearly located at Pierpoint, albeit with lots of excursions. The answer for that question in season four is either not really anywhere or it involved a whole lot of plot description. This isn't necessarily a criticism because Rudderless Drifting is a pretty good description of where our main character characters are in their lives. But I can't think of another show that has made this kind of radical shift from a workplace drama to not sure what you call this. I'd love to hear your thoughts from a TV writing story. Constructing perspective. I'll just say one thing. I There just aren't that many workplaces anymore. Like, I know that the finance and banking world still value. And are they. They have a lot of office attendance and participation and a lot of the work happens in person in. In a physical space. But one of the sort of themes of the season has been the disconnection and dislocation people are feeling. And we're gonna get to an email about that in just a second. Vis a vis the Internet, their digital lives, their consumption of the world happening entirely through their phones and through their virtual selves. So it makes sense that they don't come to work hungover anymore and have to see each other from across the table. Now we lose iconic moments from the show. Harper's you are a world killer. Harper and Jesse Blume. If you click out on me while you're executing, you'll never hear from me again. Rishi's constant Rishi buying or selling pounds. So I feel it. And it is probably a show that needed to be 12 or 13 episodes to properly set up the nuances of working out of Eric's hotel suite or, you know, all the things that we kind of experience or where Henry I thought we had a little bit of this at Tender and there's multiple episodes set largely at Tender, I think. But yeah. What do you make of the location?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it's. Well, I think we articulated is right. I think that Mickey and Conrad have been celebrated for being young television creators. And I think that what they are leaning into, and I think this is a really fascinating and bold choice, is they're leaning into the young part of it. And I think the show is increasingly generationally accurate. There are no careers anymore. The idea of wanting something or steering towards something is very, very outdated. And just as they called me on my kind of conservative leaning view or criticism of the show, of trying to get, you know, trying to normalize things. Look at any show that briefly felt like the voice of a generation type of show and capturing young people or a zeitgeist and how it ended. And specifically, I'm thinking about Girls, which was sort of about, you know, millennial aimlessness. And it literally ends with Hannah moving upstate and having a baby and finding happiness in motherhood, which, for the record, I find a lot of happiness in parenthood as well.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

But that felt like a. It's like the third act in a Judd Apatow movie where it's like we can say crazy stuff, but in the end it's just about the nuclear family and really showing up every day and punching a clock. And that world is a fallacy and particularly for young people. And I think that the show is very, very dialed into that and wants to make something out of that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also think that that is very challenging from a dramatic standpoint. And that is their challenge.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. TV works. TV has decades of blueprints about, like, what works, what people come back to week after week. It's hard to tear those pages out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Your coworkers become your family and whether even if you're Seinfeld and you don't hug, you're still about these four people who love each other more than they love the crazy world that they're stuck in. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

This last one is from gth. It's more of a comment than a question.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, great.

[Chris Ryan]

Good evening and thank you both Chris and Andy, for diligently covering this season of industry. It's been a hell of a ride. A lot of salacious plot details, but from one watcher to another, big ups on spreading your wings and fluttering them above the story to try and analyze it on a macro level. So thank you, gth. I have been trying to do the same. These two creators have changed this show so drastically. Shifted dynamics, pruned branches, made such beautifully idiosyncratic choices on the who, what, when and where to focus on. My question throughout watching this season was why? Opting against putting out another season of bumbling through the dead eyed fluorescence of an established financial institution must have been a huge undertaking. Moving the microscope onto new test strips, taking apart different institutions, assumptions, nations. It's so difficult. It has to be more of a challenge. It has to be more oomph than simply capitalism equals bad, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I believe the mission statement of this season's episodes of TV peppered through Q1 of what will be an incredibly difficult year for our species is so much deeper than people give it credit for. A subject matter that Most movies and TV shows will never touch with a 10 foot pole is capitalism plus the Internet as a vector towards widespread ontological fragmentation? Slow march towards Dark age mentality, Questions about reality, your own sense of being, whether or not this is real, stemming from an almost religious allegiance towards an illogical set of baselines that we have been forced to bury beneath us the moment we were born. Capitalism assumes infinite growth in a world of finite resources. How in the world can any of us expect to not go completely insane when that is where we are starting?

[Andy Greenwald]

I have no notes I agree with all of this.

[Chris Ryan]

Harper, in the middle of season three, sits back and sighs and sighs and groans. I feel like I'm losing touch with reality. To me, this moment sticks out as much part of a pattern of the show, peeking at the edges of its own construction to bring attention to the flimsiness of the audience at home, the multiple allusions to the power that lies within constructed realities. Whitney and Henry's entire back half of the season. Elements like jumping through time and space, picking the last season, the last scene of episode one back up after 20 minutes of episode two. Even Rishi's final moments before his ankle shatter, having a drugged out communion with a light coming through the curtains. This image of a godly epiphany while Charlie Heaton explains the world's relationship to itself and the idea of itself. Multiple ghost dads, digital or supernatural. All of it, man. It just speaks to what I think are the Creator's main concerns with this show. The same thing that Ari Aster had in his mind when making Eddington, the same that Radu Jude had in his mind when making do not expect much from the end of the world. The fact that the algorithmic therapy coming to us via unfettered building billionaire ID just cannot coexist with the Nymphian beauty of the world. Yup, these are our listeners.

[Andy Greenwald]

Does Daniel Ek just cut the feed, by the way? Sincerely, Kiki and Monrat Amen brother. I mean that is beautifully said. And there is an element. If you felt like there is a if you're listening and you've made it this far and you've listened to our coverage of the show all season and if you feel like there is any dissonance between my, I think, pretty granular criticism of aspects of the season with my larger belief and enthusiasm for the project, it's there. I mean, there's an element of what we do here where I feel like we are focusing on the aesthetic choices of the flatware in the dining hall when they are actually covering the Titanic as it sinks. And not many shows do any of that. And it's a bummer that they're the ones that they may be the only ones watching on the wall, but I'm glad that someone is making a show that is diving right into it, that is not afraid of. Of now, even as I am fucking terrified of it. So it's remarkable. And the fact that they are doing a fast turnaround to bring this whole conversation somewhat in line with each other. They are. I think they posted on Instagram, they

[Chris Ryan]

already did the first.

[Andy Greenwald]

The first episodes into the producers or into the studio or even into the network. So they are operating as close to as real time as this moment in television allows. And. And that's a very, very good thing.

[Chris Ryan]

That's an exciting thing. Yeah. Got any watch After Dark for me before we go?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm. I think I'm. I don't know, talked out. I feel tapped out. What do you got?

[Chris Ryan]

I just didn't know if you wanted to hold me accountable for my salad choices. Oh, well, I'll say this. Sweet greens.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Having a tough quarter.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're doing your best to float them.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I mean, I'm trying to unwind. I. I've talked about this. I think if you have dependencies on very specific products, you are then enslaved to those products and to these huge corporations.

[Andy Greenwald]

How many zins are in your mouth?

[Chris Ryan]

No, this is the problem, is that my Nicorette is going out of style. My salad place is now putting the bad part of kale into the kale salad. My toothpaste. They stopped making my toothpaste. I had to switch to other toothpaste. And it's just like, when that kind of stuff starts to get to you, you need to volunteer for the Boys and girls club. You need to go do something with your life. And so I'm not. I'm trying not to be a fucking emo guy about my salads not being as good as they used to be.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that's beautifully said. I agree with you. That's how capitalism gets all of us. I was just really struck by your resistance to the slop bowl term, because I still believe and I don't know what your order is. Maybe you've talked about it on other

[Chris Ryan]

podcasts, but the word bowl is in the order.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay? So. And I have no problem with these. These items for lunch. I just will say that, like, I have never been more full in my life than after I order one of these things where you can add, like, roasted broccoli and almonds and chicken and this. Because there's this weird disconnect between the assemblage of roughage that you have and the quantity of it and how you don't feel full until you've eaten the whole thing, and then you feel worse than you've ever felt in your life.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel nothing when I eat these, buddy. I feel like I topped off the tank. You know what I mean? But not a drop too much. All right? I've been refueling. And then it automatically is just like, no more.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you know what we should do? You should come over for lunch sometime. I'll cook you a lunch.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think you mean that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Of course I mean it.

[Chris Ryan]

So I just go back to your house right now, you make me lunch. Lunch.

[Andy Greenwald]

That sounds so nice, doesn't it?

[Chris Ryan]

What are you gonna make?

[Andy Greenwald]

What do you want?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, you're not Dave Chang. What do you. What do you have in the fridge? What are you gonna make?

[Andy Greenwald]

I. I am. I am low on protein options right now, but I have some lovely tinned fishes that could open up for you.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't want to eat that for lunch. Honestly, like, I don't want to eat tinned fish for lunch.

[Andy Greenwald]

You don't have to. I'm just saying that's where we're dealing with.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that what you would make, like a toast kind of thing?

[Andy Greenwald]

I could do a toast. Sometimes I make. You're gonna. You don't want to hear this. Sometimes I make, like, little, like, brothy soup type things.

[Chris Ryan]

Interesting.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like chickpeas or chicken and a bunch of greens, lemon juice, olive oil.

[Chris Ryan]

And you just whip that up?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

This is something you do that I don't do. And what I do is go to parties. No, I mean, I don't even go to parties that much anymore, but apparently, like, I remember Isadore.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I think that there's, as we've talked about, there are trade offs in both directions for child full and child free lives. And I have said goodbye to the part of me that remembered things about orcs in return. What did I get?

[Chris Ryan]

You're not beating the allegations? Dude, you fucking are such a nerd about Marvel. You know so much about comic books.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know that's why I'm.

[Chris Ryan]

You can't. You can't.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's why this feels.

[Chris Ryan]

You're not Amanda. You can't be like, oh, it's. I don't. I don't even do that anymore. I'm just too busy with my hobby.

[Andy Greenwald]

This feels so good. Also, Amanda isn't beating the allegations because not only is she just like, oh, does Captain America have a sword or a shield? She's also like, sentimental value did nothing for me. So frankly, I don't mean to cause crosspod beef.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I don't know at this point, she's a devoted listener.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know if she does watch After Dark.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if she makes it 70 plus minutes in because being friends

[Chris Ryan]

with us is like always hearing Watch

[Andy Greenwald]

After Dark kind of. Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks to Kaya, thanks to Kai, thanks to Sarah. We'll be back on Monday talking about the Oscars and we'll go into a little bit more depth about the other two episodes of Paradise. We'll do a more granular breakdown, I think.

[Andy Greenwald]

All right, let's do it.

[Chris Ryan]

And then next Thursday, I think you can expect some Pitt. I think you can expect some Madison. We'll check that out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe special guest. We'll see.

[Andy Greenwald]

I always get excited when you talk about what's to come. Even though I have more knowledge than maybe the average list listener. You really tease it.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, thanks to everybody for writing in about the industry. I. And thanks to gth. Have a cold one.

[Andy Greenwald]

Take it. Take a walk. Touch some grass.

[Chris Ryan]

See you guys next week.