‘The Studio’ Makes Hollywood Look Cool Again. Plus, ‘Dope Thief.’

Summary

The Watch — March 27, 2025

Episode: “‘The Studio’ Makes Hollywood Look Cool Again. Plus, ‘Dope Thief.’”
Hosts: Andy Greenwald & Chris Ryan
Podcast: The Watch / The Ringer

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan explore two new Apple TV+ series: The Studio, Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg’s satirical ode to old-school Hollywood, and Dope Thief, a gritty, character-driven Philadelphia crime drama. The conversation also covers recent Hollywood industry news, particularly Apple TV+'s strategy, the changing business of streaming, and major shifts in how tentpole franchises like James Bond are managed in the post-family-steward era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. James Bond’s Future & Hollywood’s Changing Guard

[03:41-15:37]

• Amazon Buys Out the Broccoli/Wilson Family:
  Barbara Broccoli and Michael Wilson, long-time custodians of the Bond franchise, were bought out by Amazon, marking a clear end to an era of family-run Hollywood intellectual property.

• Old-School Meets New Tech:
  Amazon’s choice to hand Bond to Amy Pascal (Sony’s Spider-Verse) and David Heyman (Harry Potter, Gravity, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood) is seen as a bid to uphold the franchise’s legacy and prestige rather than spinning it out wildly for streaming content.

  • Andy: “They are people who are, I think, among the very few remaining avatars of…a relationships business.” [07:43]

• Concerns About Franchise Stewardship:
  The hosts ponder if Amy Pascal and Heyman are being split between spin-off opportunities (universe expansion) and the flagship Bond movies.

• Bond as Cultural Touchstone:
  Chris remarks on the unique British and global resonance of Bond, noting the property’s “crown jewel” status.

  Notable Exchange:

  Andy: “This is the first move in the new streaming tech version of Hollywood…that it seemed like someone was trying to reach backwards to maintain some continuity. And Bond itself is maybe the right property for this because Bond is a classy, old-school figure.” [08:54]

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2. Apple TV+: Asymmetrical Spending, Industry Influence, and Brand Strategy

[16:41-27:19]

• Apple’s Content Spending:
  Reported to lose $1B/yr on Apple TV+, with annual content spending once $5B but now scaled back.
  • Chris: "Apple obviously makes iPhones…so they print money, essentially.” [17:47]
  • “I don’t think Tim Cook thinks of that billion dollars as a loss. I think he thinks of it as a spend.” – Andy [18:09]
• Critical Hits vs. Commercial Value:
  Shows like Severance, Shrinking, and the soon-to-premiere Your Friends and Neighbors reflect Apple's play for prestige, star power, and consistent new content, even if those titles’ buzz and audience size are difficult to measure.
• Star-Driven Content:
  Apple continues landing massive talent (Chastain, Driver, Brie Larson, etc.) for buzzy, high-concept projects.
• Comparison to Netflix:
  Unlike Netflix’s subterranean ecosystem of international and surprise-hit programming, Apple’s strategy is to line up the “shiny new boxes with new famous people on it pretty reliably.” [24:33]

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3. The Studio (Apple TV+) — A Love Letter and Eulogy for Hollywood

[27:19-44:49]

Premise and Main Characters

• Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg’s Series:
  The Studio is a comedic, energetic show about Matt (Seth Rogen), an everyman suddenly elevated to head of Continental Studios, as he tries to save his position and legacy projects—with both madcap comedy and melancholy undertones.
• Surrounding Cast:
  Catherine O'Hara (Amy Pascal stand-in), Bryan Cranston (corporate boss), Greta Lee, Sarah Polley (as herself), Ike Barinholtz, Katherine Hahn, and Chase Sui Wonders—all populate a high-energy, cameo-filled ensemble.
• Hollywood Insight:
  The show deftly mixes parody, self-awareness, and genuine affection for the art (and chaos) of filmmaking, tackling both the absurdities and joys of creative collaboration.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “It loves movies, it loves Hollywood, it loves Los Angeles, it loves actors, directors, writers, performers…It’s also…just a masterclass in style and aesthetics.” — Andy [29:41]
• “I was really taken by it...most TV shows...just can’t sustain that level of verve and virtuosity and also manic nature of the performances.” — Chris [31:00]
• “The second episode is called ‘The Oner’, and it’s Matt’s hapless inability to get out of the way when visiting the set of Sarah Polley…which is going to end with a beautiful oner at sunset, very winking, very knowing.” — Andy [33:11]
• On melancholy and nostalgia:
  • “It’s deeply melancholy about a lost time and a lost industry, but it is at once so celebratory about what once was.” — Andy [29:41]
  • “Is it melancholy cause it’s melancholy, or is it melancholy because we know what’s really going?” — Chris [36:24]

Industry Reflections

• The hosts reflect on how the show’s romanticization of “how things used to work” in Hollywood feels resonant, especially as the real business is being upended by streaming and tech companies.
• They discuss the growing sense of loss in the industry—fewer shows being shot in LA, runaway production, and an eroding infrastructure for steady crew and creative work in Hollywood.
  • “Something is deeply amiss here…It is like termites eating through the foundational structure of what once was a problematic always, but at least life sustaning for many people who work here.” — Andy [39:04]

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4. Dope Thief (Apple TV+) — Gritty, Lively Crime in Philadelphia

[47:46-64:09]

Premise and Main Characters

• Adapted by Peter Craig (The Town, The Batman) from Dennis Tafoya’s novel.
• Focus:
  Two small-time Philly crooks—Ray (Brian Tyree Henry) and Manny (Wagner Moura)—run a DEA-impersonation scam that spirals into a dangerous war with real criminals and federal agents.
• Supporting Cast:
  Marin Ireland as a DEA agent, Ving Rhames as Ray’s imprisoned father.

Performance Highlights

• Brian Tyree Henry’s Star Power:

  • Andy: “Brian Tyree Henry is the best actor working. He’s my favorite actor. I would watch him do anything. And this show…allows him to fully cook, to be completely alive.” [49:41]

• Chemistry & Physicality:
  Henry’s and Moura’s dynamic is electric, with scenes full of anxious maneuvering, built-in tensions, and improvisational energy.

  Memorable Scene:
  At the end of Ep. 2, Ray sobs in a lawyer’s office, only for a ringtone mystery to be solved in a moment of comic relief.

  Andy: “His eyes are always pinballing around and taking in absolutely everything....He makes a meal out of every crumb, it is the opposite of...a big, hammy scene stealing actor. I am never able to take my eyes off him.” [50:11]

Style, Tone, and Critique

• Comparison to Classic TV Crime:
  Cites everything from Elmore Leonard to Terriers and The Shield as spiritual peers.
• Setting Authenticity:
  The show is vibrant and energetic but isn’t always strictly “Philly” in its details—accents are inconsistent, and locations are sometimes generic.
  • Chris: “My attitude about it is that I just love to see Philly shine, even as a rough diamond like this. And I almost prefer it this way where no one’s really going full mayor of Easttown.” [64:22]
• Flashbacks & Structure:
  Some quibbles about black-and-white flashbacks explaining Ray’s backstory—Chris and Andy both prefer trusting actors to convey depth without explicit exposition.

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5. Apple TV+ Programming Philosophy — Two Paths Forward

[65:05-68:07]

• Chris's “Two Models”:
  Apple’s best shows fall into either:
  1. Dream projects by proven, empowered creatives (The Studio)
  2. High-quality, “workmanlike” genre fare (Dope Thief) that could have fit on a dozen networks a decade ago, elevated by Apple’s budget/star power.
• Reliability vs. Exceptionalism:
  Most successful Apple shows are either star vehicles or genre pieces with top-tier talent—both routes much rarer outside the streamer’s deep-pocketed model.

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Notable Quotes & Moments: Speaker, Timestamp

• On industry transformation:

  Andy: “It is a fundamentally different business than it was two years ago, four years ago, certainly 10 years ago.” [14:54]

• The Studio’s vitality:

  Andy: “It's so fun to watch....It is deeply melancholy about a lost time and a lost industry, but it is at once so celebratory about what once was.” [29:41]

• Dope Thief’s authenticity:

  Chris: “Two crooks on the run from bigger crooks and on the run from the law is good shit.” [53:08]

• On Brian Tyree Henry:

  Andy: “I think Brian Tyree Henry is the best actor working. He's my favorite actor. I would watch him do anything. And this show, more than anything so far, on screen—yes, even more than the Eternals—allows him to fully cook, to be completely alive.” [49:41]

• Apple as a home for unique TV:

  Chris: “It’s starting to feel a little bit more like this is one of the only games in town.” [66:06] Andy: “They sort of a-listed themselves into a corner, and it worked out.” [67:27]

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|---------------------| | Cold Open / Banter | 00:50–03:23 | | James Bond/Amazon/New Hollywood | 03:41–15:37 | | Apple TV+ Industry Talk | 16:41–27:19 | | Conversation about ‘The Studio’ | 27:19–44:49 | | Ad Breaks | [44:49 / 46:26] | | Conversation about ‘Dope Thief’ | 47:46–64:09 | | Apple’s Programming Model (Two Paths) | 65:05–68:07 | | Playful End Segment / Show Wrap | 68:07–end |

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Episode Tone & Language

• Reflective, Analytical, Playful:
  Both hosts oscillate between sharp industry analysis, comedic asides, and genuine admiration for the artistry they see in the featured shows.
• Insider Yet Accessible:
  The episode serves both fans who track TV/film on a granular business level, and listeners just interested in great new series.
• Authentic, Affectionate, Sometimes Melancholy:
  Especially when discussing the changing ecosystem of Hollywood and the lived experience of working in--or loving—movies and TV.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode of The Watch offers a brisk, insightful survey of two Apple TV+ originals, The Studio (a whip-smart, zestful comedy about movie-making’s golden age) and Dope Thief (a sharply-acted, energetic Philadelphia crime drama). The hosts intertwine review and bigger-picture Hollywood commentary—spotlighting the tectonic business shifts in how movies and TV are funded, produced, and experienced today. Both shows depict (in very different registers) the romance and chaos of old-school Hollywood—whether in boardrooms and backlots, or on the streets of Philly—and stand as examples of how Apple aims to set itself apart in the streaming arms race: by betting big on talent and banking on style, even if the business case is inscrutable.

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Transcript

[Chris Ryan]

This episode of the Watch is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard the new season of HBO's original series the White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavored creamers. Thai iced coffee and Pina colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only, so for the love of coffee, go try them now. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice? Find out on September 19th in the new Jordan Peele produced heart horror film Him Only in theaters. Starring Marlon Wayans as the greatest football player of all time and Tyreek Withers as his up and coming protege. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkey Paw Productions, Never Meet yout Idols. Him hits theaters September 19th. I need sports to have to clear the room.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, perfecting his Philadelphia accent for Apple tv, it's Andrew Greenwald.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I don't know why you say that. That was not a barrier for entry into Dope Thief having one.

[Chris Ryan]

We're going to talk about Dope Thief. We're going to talk about the studio, Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg's new show, both on Apple tv. Plus we went to just like a little bit of a survey of the old Apple TV project. It's great to see you. We're recording a little early, so if any signal chats get leaked, I don't, you know, we're not maybe going to be the most timely podcast this week, but it's great to see you again.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Prayer hands, emoji. Yeah. So do you also want to say, like, I feel like you should. You should tell the people why we're not covering the Pit this week?

[Chris Ryan]

I. It's not. We're not covering the Pit this week. I mean, we can chat about it if you want.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I just was worried that, like maybe big insurance companies.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah, Pharma got to me.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I think maybe they got to you.

[Chris Ryan]

The only people who are getting really well off of the Pit is. I have never been more from going from. I have no idea what this thing is to. It's the only thing I think about is IO drills. Yeah. What the fuck are those, man? Would they do those?

[Andrew Greenwald]

Well, did you Google it or you just want to like riff on. I feel this is a non spoiler conversation. But for people who have not been watching the pit, you know, I think people who've watched medical shows or perhaps been inside of hospitals or even had medical treatments understand that often you get like an IV line. Right. Like maybe to have drugs put in or saline or blood drawn. Right. In a.

[Chris Ryan]

Sometimes that happens after a late night in East London. Just get a little. You go get a drip, get a little IO drill.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Well, so during a traumatic, like, we don't have time to do this, like, gracefully situation on the pit, they just start taking what appears to be like.

[Chris Ryan]

A Black and Decker power drill.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Exactly. And just going in for the main vein, like right in the arm.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I mean, it seems to be effective. I'm like, so, so is your. Are you staunchly opposed?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I'm pretty into it, but I would need to be completely under anesthesia.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Intubated?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Like, I want to be intubated. I want to be out, if that's happening to me. Yeah, we were, I mean, like the pit, I think we've talked about a couple of weeks in a row in detail. I think maybe we could, we can save it for next week if you'd like.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

We'll be remote, but, you know, like, it's, it's still.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I'll still feel close to you. We love, and we love the Pit and we love this week's episode, but we're getting this one out a little early.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. So a couple of things for Apple as we round into this conversation about Dope Thief and in the studio two shows I think we're incredibly affectionate about.

[Andrew Greenwald]

By the way, we are pro. Do we want to do any other news before we get into Apple?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I mean, if you want to talk a little bit about the Malcolm.

[Andrew Greenwald]

In the Middle revival.

[Chris Ryan]

No, let's talk about James Bond. Yeah, James Bond, which was a story that we didn't get really that deep into. But was Amazon bought out Barbara Broccoli, who had long been the steward after her father passed away. Albert Broccoli, who was sort of like the long term caretaker and producer of these Ian Fleming novels. And the, the character James Bond, he's the one who sort of popularized it with all the Sean Connery films.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Barbara Broccoli and Michael Wilson.

[Chris Ryan]

And Michael Wilson had taken over for. It was a family business, essentially.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

And I, I think for our listeners, like, you know, there's this story where it's like, Jeff Bezos just bought Barbara Broccoli out. Like, it was just like, what's the number that get you to Go away so I can start making money. Penny spin offs. There's that part of it. There's also this story about like turning the page in the way Hollywood used to function, which was a lot of like relationships, business, glad handing, family businesses, people kind of coming up through the ranks, et cetera. There were different kinds of characters you would encounter on different kinds of franchises that people who stewarded them.

[Andrew Greenwald]

It's funny that we're talking about this the same day we're talking about the studio. I feel like the tendrils of that conversation are going to be throughout the podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And so what happened was, I mean, obviously like the Amazon bought out Barbara Broccoli for control over Michael Wilson Erasure. I'm sorry, it's just easier for me to say Broccoli. I mean, does Michael Wilson like the brother and sister? Cool. Yeah. I feel like the Broccoli's are like the ones that you think of when you think of James Bond. Right.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I mean, just because the name is cool.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not doing 60 Minutes here. I'm just trying to get through the story as fast as possible.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I just feel, I feel like behind every Broccoli there's a Wilson.

[Chris Ryan]

We're fucking reenacting the insider here because you're like, say his name. What about Michael Wilson?

[Andrew Greenwald]

I don't know what he's got on you. I just feel like maybe you're compromised. American flag, prayer hands, emoji.

[Chris Ryan]

So my point was more that there is like this goodbye to the way things used to be with these long.

[Andrew Greenwald]

They're step siblings. Okay, you're so mad at me right now.

[Chris Ryan]

You've interrupted me three times. Why don't you take it from here?

[Andrew Greenwald]

No, no, go ahead.

[Chris Ryan]

I. My point was really more that the personal touch, the idea of it something being a family heirloom like, yes, that, that kind of thing is, is kind of going by the wayside. It would be very easy for the next big headline to come out of. This is like Amazon to feed James Bond into its proprietary AI and spit out four 700 new spin offs of it. And like an animated series and a prequel show and the Russos are gonna make this or whatever. And instead we got almost an old school like, hey, we know you guys must all think we're, we're new tech charlatans taking this over. We're going to kind of assuage that fear by who they brought on to produce the next iteration of James Bond.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah. And it's pretty shocking. So the announcement, I mean, it was leaked a little bit last week, but it was officially confirmed today that Amazon is bringing on Amy Pascal and David Heyman together to shepherd the property in whatever forms it might take. And for people who aren't familiar with these names, Amy Pascal was formerly the head of Sony Pictures and then after the hack and all that sort of golden parachuted into a career as one of the most successful producers in history in charge of the Sony Spider Verse movies.

[Chris Ryan]

And she particularly will come up during our studio conversation.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yes, I think she might. As well as more prestige fare like Greta Gerwig's Little Women. And David Heyman is also like pound for pound in the sense of the British pound. One of, if not the most successful producers of the 21st century, produced the Harry Potter films, producing the Harry Potter television series. And so thus someone that I now know. And as well as producing, like Alfonso Cuaron's movies, not just his Harry Potter movie, but also Gravity, he produced Once Upon a Time in Hollywood for Tarantino. These two are incredibly unique figures because there aren't very many unique figures left in Hollywood. These are executives who are as known for their creative touch as well as their financial acumen. They're known for their particular idiosyncrasies and style, both personal and professional. And they are widely respected. And they are people who are, I think, among the very few remaining avatars of what you were saying, a relationships business. What's interesting about this is that at least to my knowledge, and we're just talking about this off the announcement, I don't know if they have a relationship. They are both used to running their own fiefdoms. And I would be very interested to learn if some of the. Some of the bullet points on the deal are they doing separate projects within the Bond verse. Like, is Amy Pascal in charge of the universe expansion and David Heyman is in charge of the next Bond movie, which is.

[Chris Ryan]

Matt Bellany has talked about this. The rumor is that Quarrel and Will is being lined up to do it.

[Andrew Greenwald]

So, for example, did they first approach Amy Pascal and then Cuaron and Heyman were a package deal for the movie? We don't know. It also might not be relevant. But it is very interesting that, like the only story of recent times that this reminds me of, and I'm glad we're talking about the studio today. Cause this is a little bit the town inside baseball stuff, was a year and a half ago when David Zaslav went to Cannes and like, asked Graydon Carter how to host an industry party because he wanted to and he bought Robert Evans house and he was basically like, I am going to either cosplay or just attempt to wrest the mantle of a old style mogul. This is the first move in the new streaming tech version of Hollywood that we are all now living in that it seemed like someone was trying to reach backwards to, to maintain some continuity. And Bond itself is maybe the right property for this because Bond is a classy old school figure.

[Chris Ryan]

So in, in lots of cases retrograde. You know what I mean? I mean I think that the Daniel Craig films put a kind of primer coat of prestige on those movies that they maybe lacked before. I mean obviously I'm, I'm, I'm a relatively big fan of the entire James Bond franchise. Franchise. I have my favorites and ones that I think are silly and ones I think are just straight up bad. But I was not a super big fan of Pierce Brosnan's 007 movies and.

[Andrew Greenwald]

The Pierce Brosnan video game we were fans of.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean I will do a three hour podcast about that whenever you would like.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Okay, great.

[Chris Ryan]

If you want to do, I think.

[Andrew Greenwald]

You should go back to Philly, go to your mom's house and dig up the Nintendo 64 and then we'll podcast in the middle of the night.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And so, but the last couple of films while also having some turkeys in there like Spectre and, and honestly no Time to Die I thought was quite poor to use a Seanism. I think that mov those movies gave this project like this a little bit more of a crown jewel. Now we should also say globally and especially in England, it is a crown jewel. It is considered who's going to be playing next. Bond is something people bet on. It's something that's talked about in the British press a lot. I think it's a very durable global franchise. So I completely understand why it's of note. But to me it's this secondary story. We think it's going to be brought down to everything good. Okay.

[Andrew Greenwald]

We think. Sorry, I thought that was your phone. Are we on video? There was just a phone on the table and I was like, we can cut you. I was like, Chris, that's so rude. You left your phone on the table.

[Chris Ryan]

I think the secondary story is more interesting where it's the assumption that Amazon is going to take everything out of it that they can by feeding it through some machine and in fact they go and get two of the more heralded old school producers to be the shepherds of the project.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Look, I mean, I don't. We are not here to glaze the Jeff Bezos Corporation. I shopped at Whole Foods this morning and I. Now I can't afford to shop again. So I'm not really here to like to pretend that they know what they're doing or that they have the consumer best interest at heart. That said, if anyone is paying attention to the industry, there is. There are plenty of cautionary tales of franchise management, of how you can win the headlines and you can win the trades by securing the rights to something that has some residual curating fan affection, and then you can squander it, or certainly best case, really not recoup your initial investment. And you could look at Amazon's own the Tolkien package, which, you know, that show is fine and people like it, but they didn't spend that much money to have something that was fine that people kind of like. It kind of slipped between the cracks of our travel schedules last month, but we didn't really talk about Kathy Kennedy retiring from Lucasfilm. But not.

[Chris Ryan]

But she didn't. She did that whole interview with Mike Fleming on Deadline and she was like, I'm not leaving.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I did not see that. Yeah, really?

[Chris Ryan]

I think she was like, I will leave when it's time. And we are talking about the next generation of leadership here. But I think she was like, the, like, news of my death is. Is greatly exaggerated.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Did anybody storm the rotunda in Burbank? Like, stop the steal at Lucasfilm. Wow. Okay. Regardless, I don't know what the truth.

[Chris Ryan]

Of the matter is. Her statement was like, it's not gonna be for like at least a year.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Well, I mean, there won't be a movie next year either, so that's fine. But no, they got Grogu coming.

[Chris Ryan]

She's staying for Grogu.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Grogu coming.

[Chris Ryan]

You got a goofy little energy today. Can I tell you that?

[Andrew Greenwald]

I had to wake up really early, so the caffeine's hitting at different times. The point being, it is not necessarily a slam dunk to be like, we are a forward facing media company with multiple outlets now and we can strip this thing for parts and we can make TV shows and we can make movies. Star wars has shown us that is not necessarily the case. So a smarter move would probably be to put a lot of money into maintaining or improving upon the status quo first. Which is to say you don't start with a money penny prequel. No, you got to get the flagship get ongoing again. And so they. I guess they do seem to understand that. But look, a Lot of what we're going to say going forward and we can turn the page and talk more about. The Apple stuff, I think is about how, regardless of how bullish you feel about the future of entertainment or of television, no matter how swamped I think I personally feel, and maybe you do too, about the number of shows coming out in the next six to eight weeks that I'm legitimately excited about. And suddenly it's like, I felt that.

[Chris Ryan]

Way for last month.

[Andrew Greenwald]

It's boom times in that way, regardless of all of that. Like, it is a fundamentally different business than it was two years ago, four years ago, certainly 10 years ago. And so I, I, for that reason alone, this hiring does stand out and is interesting to me. Like, I can't pretend to be, I cannot pretend to be neutral about this because I have had a personal or business interactions with both of these producers and I find them both really memorable people and really good at what they do in a way that stands out. So I'm very interested how that collaboration between them works and what it might mean for Amazon's attempt to preserve something, not just iterate and profit from something.

[Chris Ryan]

It'd be funny if you're talking about the division of labor. If Amy Pascal had the Felix Leiter show. Yeah, they divided it. It's like both sides of the Atlantic get a say now. Oh, the special release, you know, don't.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Give this away anymore. Stop talking. That would be fire.

[Chris Ryan]

It would be kind of fire because, you know, the intelligence community is in the news this week. But if they did basically like two laburos.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yes, but, but they had. They existed in the same.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, five eyes, basically, like Felix Leiter and their Bond and M and Q over here. But then they worked on stuff. But it was also like, got a little, got a little bit of tension between the two sides and then they.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Formed like super, like a. You could call it NATO and everyone would be like, this is a fantasy show. Is wild. You see what we're doing?

[Chris Ryan]

This is.

[Andrew Greenwald]

That's sick.

[Chris Ryan]

Get Dave on the phone, man. Tell him I got some ideas.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Listen, I got the laptop open.

[Chris Ryan]

All right, let's talk a little bit about Apple. Apple is coming off of what is. At least I would say, however you want to define it. Commercially, it's impossible to with Apple. But critically, I would say severance broadly was a success. The second season was a success.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I don't think there's any question this is success for what they are doing and it'll be rewarded. It'll feel even more so when it is rewarded at the Emmys.

[Chris Ryan]

And that's a good point. And then also I would say, generally speaking, they have had a run of shows that really push, like, my. My concept of, like, the bubble and how many people are watching something versus how many people are tweeting about it and writing about it and talking about it online and maybe like, bringing it up casually. I mean, this is where like, living in Los Angeles gets a little bit heady because you're like, do people watch shrinking or is shrinking just like, talked about a lot, you know?

[Andrew Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

So in any case, I would say Apple is definitely on an upswing. As Severance was wrapping up its second season, a story came out in a tech and finance publication called the Information that Got Aggregated Widely that was based on two people familiar with the situation told the Information that Apple was losing a billion dollars a year on its Apple TV plus project. Now, you can account for that being money paid on content, whatever it is, Money spent on content. But that was, that was the sort of takeaway, is that Apple's TV plus is, is a, like a big money loser for their company. Now, Apple obviously makes iPhones, they make computers, they make lots of hardware that people need to replace every two or three years. And so they print money, essentially.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Over there, you pointed to my new MacBook Air.

[Chris Ryan]

I just, I thought I'd.

[Andrew Greenwald]

So where's the camera?

[Chris Ryan]

Paid for it, but we won't have that low hum of like, it's negotiable, spiritualized, late period feedback.

[Andrew Greenwald]

My computer was so old, so it was wheezing on the table. Yeah. I mean, look, anecdotally, we, and many people have been saying this for years, that the entertainment project was a lark for them. Right. Like it was not in any way relevant to their bottom line as a company. The number is staggering when you hear it that way. But I guess the argument would that internally, I don't think Tim Cook thinks of that billion dollars as a loss. I think he thinks of it as a spend. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And just the price he pays to tweet at Ben Stiller and get a response.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Apparently you can do that for free. From what I've been hearing that. That, that they feel that, you know, having Jason Sudeikis face on every screen in every Apple store from Bangor to Bangalore like that. Do you think there's one in Bangor? Do you think that worked?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know if there's one in Bangor. There's certainly one like in the greater Portland, Maine area. Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I wonder how many Apple Stores there are in Maine. There's like seven in Glendale.

[Andrew Greenwald]

You know who could tell us? Tim Symonds. Right now he's pulling to the side of the road and. Or he's just dictating to Siri. Guys, there's one. Anyway, there is value in what they are doing for them, but in the larger scheme of things, it is both incomprehensible how much money that is. And then also it is completely asymmetrical because very few of its legacy competitors can lose $1 billion and then be like, by the way, we just signed Jessica Chastain and Adam Driver for a new TV show.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that is the thing I was going to follow up with, which is that the. Despite the billion dollars a year and you know, they note that Apple spent over $5 billion a year on content after launching Apple TV from 2019, but trimmed it down to $500 million last year.

[Andrew Greenwald]

The loss of the expenditures.

[Chris Ryan]

The. Well, the expenditure. So, you know, take that as. As you will because I find a lot of the financial, like a lot of the numbers ascribed to television and film production and budgets now to be pretty confusing. I talked a little bit about this with Sean and Amanda on the pod Monday on Big Picture because we were talking about Alto Knights and some of Warner Brothers bigger sort of box office collapses that they've had recently flops. And I don't really understand it. You know, I don't understand why a movie about F1 cost $320 million if it did cost $320 million. I don't know.

[Andrew Greenwald]

You're talking about the film F1.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And I don't know why Alto knights cost though $130 million. Did I assume a lot of it is like talent deals and I guess like part of it. I mean, I don't even know if you could even begin to speak to why budgets seem to be so inflated now for stuff that isn't VFX driven special effects stuff.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Well, there is. I mean, there are. This would actually be. This is. I'm sure they've done versions of this, but I would actually just say, like Shawn and Amanda should do a show on this. Like the five types of movies you meet in hell just in terms of like the movies that are made today. And one of the style of movies is we will keep making this movie until we find it. And I think that, you know, both anecdotally and I think a little bit more reported than anecdotally, F1 is a movie that they committed to making and then started making A version of it. And they were like, we're not sure if this is the movie we want.

[Chris Ryan]

To make it, where he's like, we're just gonna find it.

[Andrew Greenwald]

We're gonna keep making this movie and we're gonna keep bringing in. You think the script's written, we're gonna keep bringing in writers. You think that it's directed. We're gonna keep bringing in new set pieces and new sizzle things to put in a trailer for whatever. And Apple can keep paying for it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Because that does go back to that point of like. Well, they're. They're not. They don't seem to be in this to make a profit in a traditional sense.

[Chris Ryan]

No. And what's interesting to me is that you would think if you and I were Tim Cook and Eddie Q and we had a trillion dollar market cap or whatever the hell they have, and.

[Andrew Greenwald]

We'Re just like Goldeneye, we'd be playing Golden Eye. Our lives would be so sick.

[Chris Ryan]

What about Dope Thieves?

[Andrew Greenwald]

That's such a good idea. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But if we were those guys, I think we would probably imagine ourselves taking a lot of the. Whatever the budget we had and be like, it's about. We could do a quality play. Like, rather than do two to three shows a month, let's do six great shows a year. Right. And let's have, like, the best development team we possibly can. And let's never spare expense on. Let's not go into shows and not know how they end and, you know, kind of have, like, rough, rough seas that way. And it seems like they are making almost a. A Netflix y. It's not near the scale of Netflix, but it rarely a week goes by that you do not read a story about a new show that's been greenlit by Apple, and. And it does not ever seem to let up. So this week alone, it was announced that Adam Driver and Jessica Chastain, who are two of the most respected actors of their generations, or current working actors, are going to make a show called the Dealer, which is about the art world, which marks Jessica Chastain's second Apple.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Show, that the first one hasn't even come out yet.

[Chris Ryan]

The first one hasn't even come out yet. That's called the Savant, and that's about hunting serial killers before they actually commit crimes. Which sounds just like t a TV show to me. You know what I mean? Like, it's. They're still going out and grabbing the ritziest, biggest names to do pretty straightforward TV for the most part. And I find the whole project, pretty fascinating. I don't know how sustainable it is. I suppose it is for as long as Apple stock and, and its spare cash lasts, which seems indefinite but.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Well, I mean, I think that the project kind of remains the same. You look at, you call up your Apple TV home screen and there are a lot of famous people on it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Greenwald]

And they're not just that there are a lot of famous people on it. There are shiny new boxes with new famous people on it pretty reliably. Whether it's Brie Larson or it's Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon or Gary Oldman's battered visage or Harrison Ford. Now on the shrinking poster, you know, that's that home screen in a way is their business. They don't have the sort of rumbling underworld that Netflix has where you know, it is also in the like get new subscribers, keep people, keep people signed up, avoid the churn with some big stuff. But just underneath it you can consistently find interesting international dramas or you know, smaller scale docs, higher quality show docs. And then within the Netflix ecosystem there is room for surprise. I mean, I think that is a different thing too. It is a much larger and different. And also that is their business is making, is making that service as opposed to making the devices also. So you're not going to get a, I don't think you're going to get a baby reindeer on, on Apple. Not for necessarily only for the subject matter but in terms of something that just. Whoa. We didn't see that coming. That burst through.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean the closest thing would be maybe a Drops of God.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Drops of God is a good comp.

[Chris Ryan]

Because Pachinko is you know, like this wonderful adaptation, you know, like.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Well, Pachinko is a very expensive quality play.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Drops of God is a better I think comp because Drops of God is like that second third tier Netflix shows where it's like four countries paid for this and everybody and it's a. And it's a, it's a B in every corner of the world. You know what I mean? And I happen to like that a lot. But I guess look like this is the moment when we're going to be talking about Apple a lot. We're about to talk about two shows in a couple weeks. We're going to be talking about your Friends and neighbors, the Jon Hamm show that at least. Have you watched it yet? I have not checked it out yet. But from the way that people are hyping it is like, hey, Guess what? Apple got one.

[Chris Ryan]

It's already been renewed for a second season, which is not remarkable for an Apple show, but it is notable.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Getting renewed is not notable at Apple. Getting renewed before the first season premieres or even a trailer comes out is more notable because that does seem like it's a response to both the quality and the momentum of the work on it. Okay, but let's talk about why. I mean, the studio has a lot of conversation points that I think are really interesting for the state of the industry as a whole. Do you feel, before we get into the specifics, do you feel like these two shows that we like a lot are emblematic of a service coming into its own and figuring out how to be good at what it does? Or is it a. You know, a stop clock is right twice a day?

[Chris Ryan]

I think that both of these shows present two paths forward for Apple, and they have the money to take both roads. I think the studio is the best possible end result of them partnering with someone, giving them a lot of resources, saying, make your show, make us proud. And Seth Rogan and Evan Goldberg did that with. With the studio. Now, there's a lot of inherent irony of making a show about the romantic. The romantic, like, that romanticizes Hollywood and making movies.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Making a TV show about the lost art of making movies.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, exactly. Dope Thief is. And I mean this in the best possible way, Workman, like TV at a high level, you know, and is actually a show that is a throwback, in a way to Roxanna Hadati, actually really intelligently linked it with some of the great vintage FX crime shows like Sons of Anarchy and Terriers and the Shield. I would also say it's vintage TV in the way you can feel them working out the kinks as they go and figuring out what the tone should be after a pilot that kind of covers a lot of different angles of what kind of story they could tell. It's starting to zero in a little bit more and get its footing as it goes along. So we can talk about. I think the studio makes sense to talk about first just because we've been talking about Hollywood. Where do you want to go with this?

[Andrew Greenwald]

Well, if we're starting with the studio, I want to say I love it. I think there is a lot to enjoy here, especially considering the degree of difficulty when you're making a show about making things. And it can be. These things can really, really disappear up their own asses very, very quickly. I think what's remarkable about it is, is twofold. One, to Piggyback on what you said. Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg have been friends since high school. They've been creative partners since Seth Rogen got into the business. They famously wrote Superbad together, kind of about themselves. And they have been working steadily, Seth in front of the camera and prolifically Preacher, the boys in movies as well.

[Chris Ryan]

Pineapple Express. This is the end.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah, but in producing and writing, but also like Point Grey being a company that makes things, you know, and then that sets things up and lets them run too, because they are not. I mean, they're produced, the executive produced, the boys, but they're not in there with Eric Kripke, I think, breaking story. What I mean by that is they know how to make stuff. And what's thrilling about this show is, is that it is deeply melancholy about a lost time and a lost industry, but it is at once so celebratory about what once was. It loves movies, it loves Hollywood, it loves Los Angeles. It loves actors, directors, writers, performers, in spite of shrinking margins and easily satirized catastrophes that are around us at all times. It's also, and there's specifically, this is relevant for episode two, just a masterclass in style and aesthetics and filmmaking, which is really not what I expected when I heard that they were making an industry parody. Not an industry parody of industry, but of this industry. This thing has style, it has wit, it zips, it flies. It's so fun to watch.

[Chris Ryan]

I was really taken by it. I mean, it has so much energy. I would say that most TV shows, because of the nature of the long form storytelling that they're going to do and they just can't sustain. And it'll be really interesting to see if the studio can. They can't sustain that level of verve and virtuosity and also manic nature of the performances. I mean, the first two episodes, Seth Rogen plays a character named Matt who has been elevated to the head of Continental Studios after his mentor is deposed. His mentor played by Catherine o', Hara, who plays a pretty obvious Amy Pascal. Stand in.

[Andrew Greenwald]

For what it's worth, Seth Rogen's movie, the Interview was at the heart of the hack at Sony, which sort of.

[Chris Ryan]

Brought it back to Amy Pascal's doubtful. And the first two episodes are essentially the madcap day that he finds out he's gonna be the head of the studio and his attempts to find a director for a Kool Aid movie, a Kool Aid IP movie that his corporate boss, played by Bryan Cranston and people.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Who are listening might remember Bryan Cranston as the real life father of Dr. King on the pit. Dude.

[Chris Ryan]

I know.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Wild.

[Chris Ryan]

I know. And Brad Durf is Fiona Duraf.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Dr. McKay's our favorite nepo babies.

[Chris Ryan]

Anyway, there's so much energy in this first episode as he tries to assemble a project to solidify his place at the head of the studio. And he goes and he engages Martin Scorsese in trying to make a Jonestown movie that they then backdoor into being a Kool Aid movie. And then the second episode is set on a film set and is essentially a love letter to the chaos and beauty of a collective of people coming together to try and get the shot, but is almost more of a character portrait of this guy Matt and his boundless energy that really does not have any boundaries.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Did you find it to be a palate cleanser to see an episode that was a oner that was not about a 13 year old boy accused of murder?

[Chris Ryan]

I was quite glad that it was just Greta Lee walking past the pool.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah. Smoking a joint. So the second episode is called the Oner and it is Matt's hapless inability to get out of the way when visiting the set of Sarah Polly, playing Sarah Polley's new movie, which is going to end with a beautiful oner at sunset, very winking, very knowing. There's a moment when he's saying like, well, you could just, you know, you could fake it using trickery and whip pans as the camera whip pans between the two of them having the conversation about it. I mean, there's two tracks we could talk about it on. I think we should probably talk about it first. Just. It's just a. It's nice to have a comedy. It's nice to have a comedy that has ambition and can back it up. So much of that resides on Seth Rogen really settling into his screen Persona with such affability and such comfort, but also with real pathos. I mean, I really like him as an actor. I've always liked seeing him on screen, but I think this, this is someone that he just feels in his bones and has a lot of fun with. And because he has such good relationships with so many people. You get Sarah Paul, you get Martin Scorsese, you get every person that they mention actually playing themselves on screen. But you also get Ike Barinholtz, who is probably a first ballot sidekick hall of famer. You get Catherine o', Hara, Katherine Hahn. You get Katherine Hahn giving a performance that can only be described as one for her, but that makes me love it all the more. And it's who's the assistant who becomes the executive.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that Chase Sui wonders.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Chase we wonders. Yeah. And I think that every time there's anything that's kind of industry naval gazing, I reference these books, but I want to do it again because I always want people to read them, which is the Hollywood novels by a guy called Don Carpenter, particularly a book called Turnaround. But I think all three of his Hollywood movies have been collected into a single volume. I feel like people always are like, what did you just say? So I'll say, don Carpenter, the thing that makes a book like. Seriously, though, I'm just trying to be servicey. People are like, dawn Carpenter, you're in.

[Chris Ryan]

The middle of a beautiful tribute to one of your favorite authors, and you're like, I fucking hear you Reddit. I'll say his name again.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I hear him coming. I hear this heavy, like, Sasquatch feet. You know what I mean? The thing about Turnaround, which is very much like. Of the genre of like this Town isn't what it used to be, but it was written in the 1980s, is that even though the studio execs are doing cocaine binges with the writers, and the writers hate themselves, and everyone hates the writers. And this came from a real place of this novelist being like, I'd like to write for Hollywood. Oh, Jesus Christ. No, I wouldn't. He fucking loves the movies. And he can't help himself that he loves the movies. And he can't help but love it more, even as it. He's hugging it while it hits him. And that spirit is in this as well. It is cynical, it is dopey. It is sloppy and slapsticky sometimes almost to the point of absurdity, as it is in the second episode. But it's pretty emo about what it loves, incredibly. And that's the second part of the conversation to have about the show. We're only two episodes in, but it's really melancholy in a way that I think gives it a little more ballast than it might otherwise be.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it melancholy cause it's melancholy, or is it melancholy because we know what's really going? Because we live here and we know nobody's shooting anything here and we know that Sarah. Polly does not get. She's probably not shooting a Warner in.

[Andrew Greenwald]

A house in the hills in Silver Lake or. And Greta Lee isn't really able to negotiate a press tour in a private jet. So, yes, you might be right. I think that just. I'm curious your perspective on it. From my perspective on it, there has been A real, real sense in the last few months that whatever the industry used to be. And I know this can sound a little bit like I was about to give an example that I thought would be more universal, but I realize it's even more niche, which is, you know, everyone writes their why I'm leaving New York essay. Jesus Christ. This is a coastal elite podcast. The. There's everyone. You have the moment that you have in the industry, that you have it, or whatever. But it's just unquestionably when I say that the industry is different now, and I've been having this awareness over the last few months. I am not pining for the don Simpson, Jerry Bruckheimer 90s. I was not here for it. I'm not even pining for the, like, yeah, I can. I can really build up my guild pension by writing on 30 episodes of Becker this season. I wasn't here for it. I mean, genuinely, 10 years ago when the tech companies and the kind of, like, uberfication of all American industry was like, kind of just in the background.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. We were like, that seems like it'll probably affect us one day. But not quite prevalent.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah. Or even pre strike, when I was still believing that, like, the. Thank God, the strength of the unions in this town might protect aspects of this industry more so than, unfortunately, other industries that have been ravaged by this kind of rapacious capitalism. Not the case. We are living in a moment when, I mean, you can use the anecdote you told me on the way in, but, like, production, I mean, there was always going to be a contraction of TV shows and of movies. The idea that production has basically been outsourced.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. There's a clip going around that way. I was telling Andy about this, but there's a clip that's gone a bit viral. That is Adam Scott's appearance on Rob Lowe's podcast. That's on, like, Conan o' Brien's podcast network.

[Andrew Greenwald]

And that's that sentence alone. But, yeah, go on.

[Chris Ryan]

Rob Lowe is telling Adam Scott about how he makes this game show for Fox called the Floor, and that it's cheaper for fox to fly 100Americans to Ireland to make the show and probably shoot like six a day or whatever than it is to walk across the street and shoot it on a soundstage in the Fox lot. On the Fox lot.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And they are talking back and forth about how if Parks and Rec was made today, it would shoot in Budapest.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I mean, and it's hard to. This is not our forte and this is not our industry. But, like, I Am having trouble getting my arms around Apple being like, yeah, we'll lose $1 billion because we don't care. And also, you can't work in Glendale or Burbank anymore. Like, yeah, something is deeply amiss here. And it. And it is like termites eating through the foundational structure of what once was a problematic always, but at least life sustaining for many people who work here.

[Chris Ryan]

It was an industry town that you could, if you worked in the industry, if you were a first AD or if you were a character actor or a staff writer, you could get a house somewhere and your kids could go to school and you would have, like a decent.

[Andrew Greenwald]

You had a restaurant that served an okay salad on Melrose near Paramount. Like, there is a trickle down effect to it that there might be a.

[Chris Ryan]

Movie theater, like, on Sunset Boulevard.

[Andrew Greenwald]

You know what I mean, that you could go see movies in. I mean, I think that, like, with many things at this particular fraught and awful moment in the country, like, there's a lot of, like, gosh, nervous laughter, you know, like the Selina Meyer from Veep Meme, where it's just her saying, nervously laughing, what the fuck? Like, we could connect these pieces and what would emerge would be a pretty terrifying image.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Okay, so I, I think I would answer your question, or it's not really a question, but I would counter it by saying really great shows tend to play up the importance of whatever the subject matter is that they're talking about. So was SportsCenter ever as emotionally trenchant as Sports Night makes it seem? Seem like it is?

[Andrew Greenwald]

There were a couple nights in 1996 when I thought so.

[Chris Ryan]

Was it routinely, like, direct to camera, like I'm talking about my dead brother or like, the beauty of marathon running? No.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Right. I wish our podcast reached for those lofty goals, but go on.

[Chris Ryan]

So it's not, it's not out of bounds for them to be like, you know, what really matters is movie making. I think that the, the feeling that this is an industry that used to work. And I think Seth Rogen is a product of. He's always spoken very pragmatically about his art and also working within the confines of studio system. So he is one of my favorite.

[Andrew Greenwald]

He's not a bomb thrower.

[Chris Ryan]

No, he's. But he's one of my favorite people to listen to talk about writing because he's so practical about it. And he's so, like, you know, one of the big things that people are always talking about writing, and I just don't think they write enough. Like, People actually need to. And that's. He's very prolific with, you know, he obviously practices what he preaches. So in some ways, I feel like he has the. The bonafides to make a show like this because he remembers a time not so long ago when maybe this kind of thing worked. But at the same time, it's hard not to watch it and. And feel that same sense of melancholy. I saw Steppenwell compared to the Player, which is Robert Altman's, you know, absolutely. Poison heart black comedy about Hollywood from the late 80s or 90s.

[Andrew Greenwald]

92, 93.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I think that this show is more romantic about Hollywood than the Player is. I think that very much so. There is something about. And I think almost it goes beyond whether or not Continental Studios is making good stuff. It's just about the joy and the excitement that comes from making movies, which I think is a really cool thing to watch, and it does communicate that enthusiasm. Ultimately, this is just a really funny, well written show that's directed really well and it has a ton going for it. And the Martin Scorsese episode alone, I would just watch a hundred of these.

[Andrew Greenwald]

It's really funny.

[Chris Ryan]

But. Yeah, it's such a complicated, not even ethical dance you have to do. But there is something, there's 5% of my brain that's always like, not anymore.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah. But I think that what you also want as a viewer is I want the people. I want creative people to take the biggest swings that they are empowered to make. And one of the things that I think allows this to work is what you were saying about how Seth Rogen has put in the time and on all sides of the business and camera and has learned a lot and appreciates what he appreciates. And he is romantic about things that he loves and things he's seen in the past. He. He's also. It's not romantic, but he is very, very taken with how fun it is to do stuff with the people that you like or the people you love or the people that you meet along the way. And so the process part of it is really spirited as well. And if Apple is saying, here's the check we're going to write for this show, he's like, great, look what I'm going to do with it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Greenwald]

There is a feeling that is that there's kind of a like a stagnant feeling in some of the previous Apple glossy shows, which does not feel like people doing the most they can. It feels like doing what they were paid to do. And it looks a certain way, but it feels sort of sticky, sweet or hollow or not really fully realized. Certainly not vibrant, certainly not like let's fucking go the way this show feels with its style and its camera and um, take advantage of what you've got if you're still one of the people who's able to make these things. And I think that I'm responding to that as well and that the melancholy part is might be behind the scenes. It is actually exhilarating to see someone take advantage. Like if there's x amount of oxygen left in the in the life pod, let's get on the treadmill and burn it fast.

[Chris Ryan]

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[Chris Ryan]

Know, I guess that that is a good a place as any to go towards Dope Thief, which I think is just an example of like television made extremely well. This is a show that comes from Peter Craig. It's based on a novel by Dennis Tafoya.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Peter Craig is the guy who wrote the Town, Right. And collaborated with. I think he wrote some of the, did he write some of the Hunger Games things as well?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And Hunger Games movies.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It stars Brian Tyree Henry and Wagner Mora and they basically play small time Philadelphia crooks who get pulled into a Pennsylvania drug war that hits every part of their lives. It's got a very good supporting cast of faces many people might know, but my favorite is Marin Ireland.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Oh yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And you know, one of the last times I saw her in a consistent TV role was Sneaky Pete.

[Andrew Greenwald]

She was great on that and she.

[Chris Ryan]

Was great on that. She's great in this. She plays a, a DEA agent, undercover DE agent in the show. And this thing just has grimy Elmore Leonard comic caper energy. It's a little, it gets a little melodramatic at times. But the best, the show at its best has this kind of buddy cop or buddy comedy crime film vibe to it that I just can't get enough of.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I mean, did you say that Ridley Scott directed the pilot? It's crazy.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but like, if you didn't see his name, would you have? I'm being completely honest. I mean, like, I think the pilot is really cool. Spencer Grenise is in it as like, as the sort of Jesse Pinkman esque character who shows up for an episode. And he's awesome.

[Andrew Greenwald]

He's the only one does the Philadelphia.

[Chris Ryan]

Accent and he does the Philly accent very well. And it's. It's just really. I would not say. I would. I would not say. It was like, obviously a Ridley scout.

[Andrew Greenwald]

You would put this up with the Kingdom of Heaven directors.

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Andrew Greenwald]

In terms of the Panther, would you?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Here's what I'll say. I really love the show. And we can get granular as to why, but there's really only one reason, and people know this. I think Brian Tyree Henry is the best actor working. He's my favorite actor. I would watch him do anything. And this show, more than anything so far, on screen. Yes. Even more than the Eternals allows him to fully cook, to be completely alive. And he plays a guy named Ray Driscoll, who's a recovering addict who spent time in prison.

[Chris Ryan]

His dad's still in prison.

[Andrew Greenwald]

His dad, played by Ving Rhames, is still in prison. His whole life has been affected by the carceral state, let's say. And he's incredibly charismatic and incredibly clever. But maybe too clever for his own good because he ends up getting himself and his best friend Manny, the Wagner Mora character, into much more trouble than they could get into, than they realized.

[Chris Ryan]

They basically have a gimmick where they rob drug dealers while pretending to be dea. DEA jackets. And then this blows up in their face. Predictably.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I almost don't know how to articulate how alive he is scene to scene. He is very stressed during much of this show. I mean, the tension builds and the threat to him and to his loved ones only increases episode to episode. Within the moments of stress. He finds these little pockets for silliness, for fun, for frustration. His eyes are always pinballing around and taking in absolutely everything. And like he makes. When I say he makes a meal out of every crumb, it is the opposite of when you talk about, like a big, big, hammy scene stealing actor. I am never able to take my eyes off him. And we've watched three episodes. I guess the fourth one will be coming up right around the time that this episode drops. We have not watched ahead because we're digging it. And there are, I believe, eight episodes total. But there's a sequence at the end of the second episode. I'm not even sure if we're gonna. How much we're gonna spoil. How much we could do.

[Chris Ryan]

I think we could spoil the first two. Cause those are the first ones that went up. So let's feel free.

[Andrew Greenwald]

But I Don't even know if it's a spoiler to say. At the end of the second episode, Rhaey is at to what is to this point, the lowest moment of his life. And he is sobbing in the, by the way, very nice office of a young lawyer in Philadelphia because he thinks that his best friend is dead and it's his fault. And the lawyer thinks he's sobbing because of his father's cancer diagnosis. Cancer diagnosis in prison. And I mean, I'm talking about how lively and funny he is. Brian Tyree Henry can cry on camera and have you feel for him. The end of the scene though, the burner phone that he's taken off of the body of a guy of a biker sent to kill him rings and he's been unable to guess despite being a big muso what this melody is. And the lawyer improbably is like oh meatloaf bat out of hell, right? And rhe looks up and he's just like oh shit. Or some version of that.

[Chris Ryan]

Like yes.

[Andrew Greenwald]

And it's so true and it's so funny. And I think expand the aperture past me being like this performance is just magnetic and one of my favorite of the years. I think that's. That's what you said. That's the reason why you like this show in a nutshell, right? Because unlike most things, it's a little bit funny, it's a little bit clever, it's a little bit sly.

[Chris Ryan]

It's also got a great engine. Two crooks on the run from bigger crooks and on the run from the law is good shit. And they've got a very cool setting with Philly obviously they're running all through alleyways, chain link fence fences into sort of off market gun dealers houses. You know, people are going to Atlantic City for the weekend, people are going out to the the sticks to buy meth or to rob meth dealers. There's a real landscape here. And to your point about Brian Ty Henry, I just really think one thing I noticed when I was getting through the second and third episode and the juices are flowing, the actors always have something to do. Yeah, I really like you've been noticing.

[Andrew Greenwald]

This with the fruit on White Lotus too.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, I think what it is is that you'll watch shows sometimes and it. And you're like this scene only exists so that two people can kind of exchange information and maybe it's entertaining but you know, they've sat down and they've begun to drink a coffee and then they have this conversation and the Conversation was just to basically get from scene one to scene three, Cold Harbor. Yeah, well, I honestly, there's a lot of that in, in Severance where there's a lot of like very static blocking. To me at least, or sometimes.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Well, it's stylized. It's that it's consistent in the show. But I know what you mean. I didn't mean to derail you.

[Chris Ryan]

What I like about what they're doing in Dope Thief is I'm sure there's like an actorly term for this where it's like you're, you're, you have to act a behavior, you know, and it's like you can't really worry about anything else. But this is a guy who's looking for a piece of paper at a desk. Now the scene takes place and they communicate all the information you need to do. But I feel like Brian Tyree Henry always has something to do in the show. And I really, I think that that really makes it. It juices it up for me a lot.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I think it is more stage acting, which is where he started, right where. And that comes from like the Meisner technique of like, you repeat an activity and the words are secondary to the behavior. But stage actors, you know, you're seeing all of them all the time. You're not cutting. And so they have to understand and inhabit the character's full body, not just the face and the tight close up shot. The challenge that I think some stage actors find hard to overcome is the scale. Like stage actors are busy and projecting, busy with their bodies and projecting their voices, right? And then you get on camera and the great film actors speak in very hush tones often and hold weight, power and charisma through stillness. So sometimes when you feel like performers are doing too much, it might be because they're jumping between mediums and not adjusting for that. And that's also why sometimes film actors feel very stiff or dead when you see them on stage. He is one of the rare people who is able to bring his full performing self onto the, you know, in front of cameras and still feel appropriate, if that makes sense. Like he's alive within the camera frame or within the scene. He's not trying to punch his way out of it.

[Chris Ryan]

Now, you and I love these kinds of stories. Yeah, there's a real, like Elmore Leonard. People who've read Patrick Hoffman will recognize, like, some of the vibes of this show.

[Andrew Greenwald]

And I've never read Dennis defoia, but I feel like I've never.

[Chris Ryan]

Me neither, but I should check it out. What do you think of the only time where I'm like, this feels like a little extra layer of I didn't need this is put on. An extra layer is added that I didn't need is some of the black and white flashbacks that are kind of explaining Ray's backstory, maybe why, you know, he went down the path of addiction that he did, why he turned to a life of crime that he did. I, I kind of didn't need that. I, I didn't really need that yet. I mean, how are you feeling about some of the wrinkles?

[Andrew Greenwald]

It's interesting because it's also regardless of whether it's like going on Ridley Scott's like hall of fame resume, he's a very, you know, impactful and important directorial figure. And when you have a series like this with an autourish director who sets the tone, it creates a visual template and a storytelling mode that then the other directors who are episodic, who just come on for a couple days to shoot their block or shoot their episode, have to reckon with. It felt heavy at the beginning and then it feels at least through three that it's sort of dissipating. Am I wrong in thinking Tanya Hamilton.

[Chris Ryan]

Did a really cool job with three, which has the showdown? I mean, there's a showdown outside of a prison. It's a little bit more of like a cat and mouse game. I mean, the whole thing is a cat and mouse game.

[Andrew Greenwald]

But yeah, it's also, it does. To your point, I think it does feel like a little bit maybe of a sop to the people who are, who don't love this sort of thing necessarily and need some more, like, why would you do this? What's your motivation for this? Or like, yeah, let's go. They're in a van that say less. You know what I mean? I mean, there is a feeling that I think you could argue it two ways. You could say it becomes it's a little heavy handed at the start or you could say it's a little ambitious at the start and then at least. And then by the time you get to three, as you said, I think this appeals to us more, but it is a little bit more wrote. It's like, okay, now we're, now we're just a cat and mouse robbers and worse robbers kind of show. Yeah, we're not trying to say something.

[Chris Ryan]

Generally because I think Brian Tyree Henry can communicate any emotion you need him to and any character's history and experience. He can do it in the present tense in a scene he doesn't actually need a backstory or he does, but he could communicate that through present. It's just something. It's a TV thing that happens where there's like, well, you know, we want to make sure that people actually don't reject the premise of this guy who robs drug dealers and is falling on and off the wagon. So let's make sure we all know he's got some this and that and the other going on.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I mean, he did that for Phastos, the immortal Eternal, who invents technology, you know, and I know you were thinking of that. Two other details about the show that I think we have to mention. One is I need to do a temperature check on Wagner Mora because I find I don't know if there's any other actor whom I like more. I'm like, I like that guy. I like his performance. I like the way he acts. I like seeing him, but consistently feels wrong to me, if that makes sense.

[Chris Ryan]

So he replaced Michael Mando on this.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Show from Better Call Saul and from Orphan Black before that, who was fired for his. They never went into details, but it did say clash with a co star.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andrew Greenwald]

And this was two years ago when they were shooting this show.

[Chris Ryan]

We were just.

[Andrew Greenwald]

This was very strike effective.

[Chris Ryan]

I happen to love Wagner Mora. I think that he is really the right kind of. Especially in three, when we finally get back to his character and his character turns up again. His arc from I'm wearing a button down oxford shirt and trying to get my life together to I'm strung out hiding in an attic is great. And he is a really good foil for. For Brian Tyree Henry. I think he can both be his straight man and also be the accelerant to the fire.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I also appreciated that they rewrote the part to be Brazilian so that he could just own his accent and the way that he is and what he brings to every part, as opposed to sort of shoehorning him in as another Philly guy or necessarily, you know, I want to be careful what I'm saying. There are many immigrants that are very Philly guys. I didn't mean that. But it feels more naturalistic.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I think that those actors are both so good that they were quickly able to just establish a friendship, a rapport, a history that doesn't need flashbacks. I agree with you. There is something. And maybe this is a little carryover from watching Civil War where I was like the movie where I was not.

[Chris Ryan]

Captain America or the Civil War.

[Andrew Greenwald]

The Civil War. Just been watching it. The documentary I this, I'll work on this and think about what it is because I like him so much in a single. And then sometimes when he's put into these worlds, I bump a little bit on his integration into it, but I'm not. This is the Brian Tyree Henry show and everyone else is supporting it. We have to as native Philadelphians who have yet to check out Longbright river, another Philadelphia cop show who are eagerly anticipating task have watched some deli boys and deli boys. This is a really fun, really entertaining, high quality crime show. I would not say thus far it is a very high quality Philly show. There is almost nothing Philly about it other than that one dude's accent at the beginning and that I guess they Federal agents have funerals in front of City Hall.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I didn't remember any DEA funerals growing.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Up, but sure, yeah, no, but, you know, not. Maybe that was a Frank Rizzo thing and not a Wilson Goode thing. Unclear.

[Chris Ryan]

Emir Arison plays Merrin, Ireland's boss in the show. He's really good. He's deadpan de age. And when he's like, I have to put a flag over this guy's coffin and bury him outside of city Hall, I'm like, you do?

[Andrew Greenwald]

I don't remember that. I remember my kids ice skate in front of City hall sometimes. They didn't know it was on the.

[Chris Ryan]

Graves of former DE agents, you know, working in Philadelphia. I just didn't know that that's what happened.

[Andrew Greenwald]

It seems a little high profile. You know, I feel like a lot of what they do is shit sh.

[Chris Ryan]

There's, I love when a TV's like, it's like you, whatever you do, don't come to this funeral. And then she's there and she's like.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Not only they like, don't come this funeral. Like you were under deep cover. You've asked to stay under deep cover. You're mute now. Okay? And we intentionally placed you under very obvious, like martial guards and you snuck.

[Chris Ryan]

Past them to get to this funeral.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Which is happening at City hall in the center of Center City. I, I, I can't decide. And maybe I need to watch some more of these shows to decide whether it would be worse if these guys were making any effort to be from Philadelphia other than saying John twice. Would it be worse if they were all just trying to do the accent or would it have made the show richer? Like Kate Mulgrew, the great Captain Janeway from back in the Star Trek days is well cast and giving a perfectly good performance. As Rhae's stepmom.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Greenwald]

She is playing a working class elderly lady from someplace.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Could be New York, could be Boston. Doesn't matter.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, the Aryan Brotherhood guys are definitely from Boston.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Like, or maybe one of them is intentionally Boston. And what's funny is Brian Tyree Henry, who went on Colbert and was like, I had to learn the Philly accent. I'm like, was that just private study, independent study that you didn't bring to the show? His character Ray is like, this guy has an accent like people have from up north. And I'm like, finland? What does he mean? Up? Like, it's so clear. Everyone knows what a boss are. We living in a fantasy world.

[Chris Ryan]

But even he refers to like a John Havlicek ass accent, you know, like, that's very specific.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's like, well, then you're referring to New England.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Like, we all know it's not vague, but do you think it's a deal breaker or just.

[Chris Ryan]

My attitude about it is that I just love to see Philly shine.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Even as a rough diamond like this. And I almost prefer it this way where no one's really going full mayor of Eastown.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I will say probably for us, Philly shot shows are going to feel season five of the Wire for us where we're like, that's not actually how you get to Aramingo. You know what I mean?

[Andrew Greenwald]

Like you. Yeah. It's true though. We are kind of like experiencing what Boston was experiencing 20, 20 years ago in terms of like, suddenly there are a lot of crime shows set there and people think they can do the accent or they avoid it. But also, we are now champions in sports.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andrew Greenwald]

And that's really what matters.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andrew Greenwald]

So people are coming for us. You know, heavy is the head.

[Chris Ryan]

So look at, look at Apple pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah. I feel like there's still. Well, it's an ongoing conversation. We'll be talking about your friends and neighbors, like the model that you're talking about. Both of these things, the studio being good and dope thief being good in the respective lanes that I think you sketched out very well. Those are not high batting average scenarios. We are going to empower successful people to do their dream project and use their Rolodex to populate it. Is the studio best case scenario in some ways for that type of.

[Chris Ryan]

Worst case being disclaimer.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yes. Right. Dope thief is we're going to sprinkle a little apple and money magic. On what otherwise could be on any service really. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Greenwald]

And it being.

[Chris Ryan]

But I actually the funny thing is is you say that and I think to sort of draw this all back to the town and to the way things work now.

[Andrew Greenwald]

The movie Peter Craig wrote. Oh, the podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

No, not even the podcast. Like the place. Like the way Hollywood works now is we always say. I, I feel like we've make that made that reference of like, oh, and. But this could be on another network. But there aren't actually that many places that it could be. I mean it. Yes, it could. Could Dope Thief have been on Peacock for sure. Could it have been on Netflix? I guess there's a world in which it could have. You know, HBO has its own Philadelphia crime show. So yes, there are examples, but it's, it's starting to like feel a little bit more like this is one of the only games in town.

[Andrew Greenwald]

To me, I think that's right. If you look at the pieces, this is not an obvious sell anywhere. Maybe it would have been 10 years ago, but not so much now. A novel that is respected and not very well known, a genre that we love, but isn't always a home run ratings wise or return on investment wise. But you take Peter Craig, who's a screenwriter, who's. He also wrote the Batman, so he's a pretty well established and I'm sure well compensated screenwriter. Ridley Scott and Brian Tyree Henry, who isn't an A list actor but is respected like one and isn't gonna say yes to just anything. Those three pieces, get it made. But when you put those three pieces, those costly pieces in place, it's Apple that's gonna make it. You're right. So they sort of, they sort of a listed themselves into a corner and it worked out.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I think that you could probably do a dissection of the shows that Apple has and you could assign them in one way or another to one of those two paths. This is either a reliable piece of genre television or someone we want to be in business with. And sometimes it's both. So sometimes it might be Jake Gyllenhaal or sometimes it might be Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

But for the most part, when you look at their shows and the ones that work, they fall into one of those two buckets. They fall into like this would be on 10 other television networks eight years ago, but whoops, we happen to have a trillion dollars to blow.

[Andrew Greenwald]

You know who I'd like to talk? I'd like to get in to weigh in on this. And obviously we're not going to do it today. We're not going to cold call him Tim Cook. But you call Tim, I'll call David Heyman. Our buddy Chuck Closerman used to say we would have conversations with him and I don't remember if we ever talked about this on a podcast, but that he was always struck by the fact that as recently as when we were talking about this, it was 20 years ago that just from like the visual, the look of a show, he could tell what network it was on. That CBS shows had a certain way that they were color corrected or ABC shows were shot with a certain kind of vibrancy in NBC sitcom whatever that they had a visual identity. And I wonder if Apple is an inheritor of that now that there is a certain look. Maybe it's just the, the, the, the, the price of the talent that we're looking at. Yeah, but can you tell an Apple show just by throwing it on?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean I, I, I think for a while I'd joking about how like it seems like everybody in Apple shows wears logo less hats. You know, it's like there's an anonymity to when I, when I see people on shrinking and they're all wearing like bonobos. You know what I mean? Like I know they're not but bonobos and all birds, but it just feels like they're all wearing like this is a shirt and pants, you know, like. But I like who, who looks like this.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Say more.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you know what I'm saying?

[Andrew Greenwald]

To be fair, shrinking is set in Pasadena where I do spend quite a bit of time and people do dress like that there. Excuse me, sir, Is that a pair of shoes on your feet? Yes, I think it really complements my shirt and this I call a sweater.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm sorry that it took me 58 minutes to make a joke on this podcast.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Do you feel like you've been kind of serious today?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I feel like I just, I just, I had, I had a, I feel like this was like a game that they'll be like, way to go there, slugger. We'll take it from here.

[Andrew Greenwald]

No, yeah, you, yeah, you're, you're always playing at an elite level. You're the only person you're playing against at this point in your career is chasing ghosts.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm chasing Jordan.

[Andrew Greenwald]

It's like LeBron.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Do you want to, because we're recording early, this will go up Thursday. Do you want to say where you physically are in time and space on Thursday, I am Boston. People are going to come out. You want people to come out?

[Chris Ryan]

I want to perform to an empty house of Blues. Just me and Rossillo.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Sometimes. Is Rossillo coming?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Rosillo's doing the rewatchables.

[Andrew Greenwald]

That's sick. Sometimes. There have been times on this podcast where I was like, chris, you want to talk about your live rewatchable show, and you're kind of like, it's already sold out.

[Chris Ryan]

No, that's not what I mean.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I don't want to make people feel bad.

[Chris Ryan]

That's not what I mean. I just. It's a. You know, I'm here for you. I'm here about. This is about us and what we do.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Oh, yeah. We discussed this the other week. We don't even post this. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

You just.

[Andrew Greenwald]

You just, like, you just worried about me.

[Chris Ryan]

Talk it out, bud. How's Hollywood doing?

[Andrew Greenwald]

You're just worried about me. So you rent the studio. I noticed Kai is not even coming in anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

Kai's actually doesn't work at the Ringer.

[Andrew Greenwald]

She works at Kai's.

[Chris Ryan]

Just Department of Social Services.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I hope. I hope she has. I hope she responded to the email positively about what she does every day.

[Chris Ryan]

It was great talking to you. We'll be back Monday. We have Lotus, and maybe we'll go more in depth into severance or not severance.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Jesus.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe we'll go more in depth into the studio after people have had a chance to really digest it.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Yeah. But there's also other stuff we have we've sort of dropped the ball on. There's Top Chef. There's gemstones, There's Daredevil. This is a busy time.

[Chris Ryan]

It is. And then Andor and Last of us are coming.

[Andrew Greenwald]

I mean, that's. That's coming too soon, honestly. So you say Kathy Kennedy's still in her office. Should I just tell her to just, like, pump the brakes?

[Chris Ryan]

We should start a website that is. Is CATHY Kenny. Kathy kennedyinoffice.com Just to find. Because it would be like, we used to. Grantly. We used to have, like, sites. We would start a site that was like, is JoelMB playing tonight dot com.

[Andrew Greenwald]

That site has been static for quite some time.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't want to let us go, man. I just love talking to you.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Do you think this is, like, the outro track that we used to have on CDs?

[Chris Ryan]

I think Kyle needs to go. All right.

[Andrew Greenwald]

All right.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks, everybody. We'll talk to you guys on Monday.

[Andrew Greenwald]

Adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen the new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you.