Vince Gilligan and Rhea Seehorn on the ‘Pluribus’ Finale

Summary

---

The Watch: Vince Gilligan and Rhea Seehorn on the ‘Pluribus’ Finale

Podcast: The Watch
Hosts: Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan (The Ringer)
Guests: Vince Gilligan (Creator, Pluribus), Rhea Seehorn (Star, Pluribus)
Date: December 24, 2025

---

Overview

This episode of The Watch features an in-depth interview with Vince Gilligan and Rhea Seehorn reflecting on the acclaimed first season of Pluribus, culminating in its enigmatic and emotionally charged finale. Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan lead a lively conversation exploring the show's unique combination of genre-bending science fiction, relationship drama, and philosophical subtext. The interview covers everything from the collaborative creative process, challenging character work, and memorable visual storytelling, to the evolving sociocultural resonances of the series.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Quiet, Subtle Storytelling

• Cold Open as Tone Setter:
  The hosts dissect how the season’s cold open—the communal “uploading” ritual for Cusamayo—sets both a joyous and devastating emotional stage, foregrounding the show’s blend of speculative fiction and lived human experience.
  • [02:16] Andy Greenwald: “It was a pretty triumphant finale for what was an incredibly subtle, in some ways, and impressive season. …The choreography and the direction of it, was so stark and honestly devastating.”
• Visuals Over Dialogue:
  Rhea Seehorn and Gilligan explain their commitment to wordless scenes and “close watching,” noting the show’s trust in its audience to pick up on emotional nuances.
  • [25:55] Rhea Seehorn: “It’s not plot, plot, plot. Sometimes the character going through a task is what’s advancing the story.”

2. Crafting Relatable, Extraordinary Drama

• Grounding the Sci-Fi in Real Emotion:
  Gilligan discusses making “global, insane, genre and heightened” ideas about hive minds and existential threats feel intimate and recognizable, focusing on character-specific journeys.
  • [11:26] Gilligan: “You watch it later and some smart person has insight…this is kind of like every relationship in a certain sense, every new relationship. I hadn’t really thought of it until just now.”
• Performance Inside the Collective:
  Rhea Seehorn details the challenge faced by co-star Carolina Widra (Zosia), who must act as a single node of a vast consciousness, and what it means for acting partnerships without classic emotional mirroring.
  • [17:22] Seehorn: “She can’t look like she’s just high on Valium or a robot…She’s sentient, she’s compassionate. We’ve reached this part, which she had to do too—evolving.”

3. The Mechanics of the Writers’ Room

• Collaboration and Uncertainty:
  Gilligan opens up about the messiness of breaking storylines and the necessity of collaborative indecision, sometimes having a “North Star,” sometimes realizing that guiding light is “illusory.”
  • [13:17] Gilligan: “Every single day is either a bold new adventure or a fresh hell, depending on how you want to look at it.”
• Kicking the Tires (on Characters):
  Seehorn points out that if writing comes too quickly, it’s probably too easy; the creative team must interrogate whether each action is authentic for the character.
  • [13:55] Seehorn: “If it comes too easy…you need to kick the tires on that, because it might not be actually what that character would do.”

4. The Carol-Zosia Relationship & Performance Approach

• Layered Emotional Experience:
  Seehorn reveals her process for Carol’s emotional arc, negotiating conscious and subconscious motivations, vulnerability, and human pettiness amidst overwhelming plot stakes.
  • [14:23] Seehorn: “There’s some willing delusion…she is feeling affection for Zosia, but it’s also coming out of being so broken by the time in isolation.”
• Acting Without Knowing the End:
  On only receiving scripts one at a time, Seehorn likes not knowing the ending—in contrast to prepping for a play—which prevents her from telegraphing future developments and lets her play Carol’s immediate state with greater authenticity.
  • [44:10] Seehorn: “In the world that Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould were creating, you’re not…playing…it’s not necessary. They don’t need me to telegraph to the audience where the story’s going.”

5. Exploring Substance Use and Character Flaws

• Addiction as Ambience, not Defining Trait:
  Carol’s use of substances is presented as self-medication rather than a major plot engine, adding texture and humanity to her struggles without dominating her identity.
  • [49:53] Seehorn: “It is a self-medication issue…another way to block the world out. This misanthrope that she takes too far sometimes.”

6. Nuance as a Mirror for Contemporary Concerns

• Pluribus as a Societal Rorschach:
  The show acts as a vessel for current anxieties—AI, isolation, addiction or grief—without being didactic or pinned to any single cultural flashpoint.
  • [55:03] Seehorn: “The fact that you don’t write to particular themes, you’re not trying to preach a specific thing, lends a timeless quality…it’s meeting the world right now.”

7. From Breaking Bad to Pluribus: Confidence and Luck

• Confidence in Collaboration—Not Control:
  Gilligan attributes the ability to create long, quiet scenes to deep trust with a long-time production team and the confidence that not everyone must like the show for it to succeed.
  • [34:01] Gilligan: “I’m never gonna go broke assuming the audience is smarter than I am.”
• Storytelling by the Seat of Your Pants:
  The famous “machine gun in Walt’s trunk” anecdote comes up, illustrating how sometimes major elements—like Pluribus’ atom bomb—are introduced without a full plan for their payoff.
  • [37:56] Gilligan: “That was the stupidity of youth with that M60…there were times in the [Breaking Bad] writer’s room I would just slowly bang my head against the wall.”

8. Looking Ahead to Season 2

• Work Still in Progress:
  Season 2’s writers’ room has just broken for the year. Gilligan confirms no elves have written the plot—but “it’s going to be fun.”
  • [57:14] Gilligan: “We are plugging away…We think we know what happens in the first episode…It takes longer than I wish it did. But we’re having a good time.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Show’s Theme:
  [55:03] Seehorn: “This show is a great conduit…for nuanced conversations about a lot of areas…Victoria Very binary response. It’s true. It is definitely this or this.”
• On Audience Demands vs. Creative Integrity:
  [35:14] Chris Ryan: “Better that than everybody being like, it’s okay.”
• On Acting in Solitude:
  [26:35] Seehorn: “Especially when I’m by myself…that is frequently my scene partner, because I’m taking [the audience’s] hand down the rabbit hole.”
• On the Show’s Production Style:
  [32:59] Seehorn: “A lot of television will cut it. So you kind of almost start becoming afraid to add thoughtful pauses or meditative moments because they get cut.”
• Jumbotron Face:
  [30:57] Vince Gilligan (affectionately): “Ray has a face like a jumbotron screen…you see everything without any words.”
• On Not Knowing Everything as Actor:
  [44:10] Seehorn: “Oftentimes my RAM space is totally full with what I’m playing right now.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:16 – 05:45: Hosts analyze the finale, Pluribus' subtle storytelling, and motif of joining the collective.
• 09:29 – 13:55: Interview begins; Gilligan and Seehorn on crafting universal moments from sci-fi premises.
• 17:22 – 20:10: Seehorn on the difficulty and philosophy of playing scenes with Widra’s “collective” character.
• 25:50 – 28:00: Discussing the show’s long, wordless, action-light sequences and how audience engagement changes.
• 33:18 – 37:56: Gilligan and Seehorn explore production rhythms, confidence, and recurring visual motifs.
• 37:56 – 40:32: Anecdotes from Breaking Bad’s writing; story mechanics and the perils of “writing yourself into a corner.”
• 49:53 – 52:22: Carol’s substance use as atmospheric character detail.
• 52:22 – 56:20: Pluribus as a reflection of the present moment, creative endurance, and luck versus craft.
• 57:06 – end: Light-hearted talk about season two, golf swings, prop details (lottery tickets and Zyn pouches), and wrapping up.

---

Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, sharply funny (with plenty of self-deprecating humor), and deeply respectful of both the show’s craft and its ambitions. Both guests and hosts oscillate between philosophical inquiry, technical storytelling discussion, and relatable banter—mirroring the show’s own ability to move from the personal to the cosmic in a heartbeat.

---

For Listeners New to the Episode

This episode offers rare insight into how a genre show with high concept speculative themes can ground itself in the realities of human relationships, the writing room struggle, and performances built on vulnerability and real collaboration. Whether you’re invested in Pluribus for its heady sci-fi questions or for its depiction of heartbreak and hope, you’ll find answers here—and just as many new questions to ponder.

---

Transcript

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by CarMax. When you buy a car with CarMax, you call the shots. You want to test drive every car in the lot. Want to shop while you watch the game? Want to match your car color to your sports team? Want to shop online, in store or both. It's your move every step of the way. And support from their helpful no pressure associates is there. Whenever you need. Want to drive CarMax, shop [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Viori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Viori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to viori.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Vuori. V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons. Enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

[Chris Ryan]

I need support staff to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me on the other line. But shortly you'll be joining me in the studio. It's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

Good morning. We are the collective. I can be anywhere at any time.

[Chris Ryan]

It's absolutely right, Andy. Today on the Watch, we are going to be bringing folks an interview that we did in studio a couple of days ago with Rhea Seehorn, the star of Pluribus, and Vince Gilligan, the creator of Pluribus. We talked a lot about the broader themes and ideas of the first season of the show. So we didn't get into super detail about the finale. But I think what we'll do is since it's an extensive interview and it's a great chat with these guys and they were so generous with their time, we're gonna get into that interview as soon as possible and maybe Andy and I will save some of our more detailed thoughts about the finale and the season as a whole for when we come back on January 5 after the new Year's. So, Andy, anything you wanted to just throw out there as like a top note headline, Pluribus for people to take with them?

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, it was definitely more about South American, like Village and folk traditions than I would have expected going into. But I do love the fact that TV can still surprise me in 2025. No, that said, I thought that it was a pretty triumphant finale for what was an incredibly subtle, in some ways, and impressive season. And one thing that I really liked about the show was just right there in the opening that I'm referring to. It has a cold open where I believe her name is Cusamayo, is eager to be uploaded. And so we find out that they have, in fact, worked on the precise combination of smelling airborne baby just straight out.

[Chris Ryan]

They can do it with the extra moisturizer.

[Andy Greenwald]

You ever worry about that? Like, you're just shooting that stuff up there one of these days? I appreciated that. It was a subtle and artistic and slightly digressive way to say, this can happen. This is coming for Carol, they can do this. But also the way that it was shot with a feeling of joy and togetherness, and she's surrounded by people who love her, and these are her parents and family members, and they can't wait, wait for her to join them. And she's quite excited to join them because she loves them. And the second that it works, it's clear that they will never physically interact with each other again in the same way, which isn't necessarily a. You know, we. We understand what the joining is now, right? We understand that they are with each other at all times. Thus they do not need to perform the pantomime of making each other breakfast or singing to each other or whatever it may be. But seeing it played out that way, just the choreography and the direction of it, was so stark and so honestly devastating that it set the table beautifully for everything that followed.

[Chris Ryan]

It's funny you should mention that, because I had a similar reaction to the moment preceding. And this is. Obviously, Andy talked about the cold open, but we'll be, as Vince and Ray do, discussing spoilers for the entire first season of the show. The moment preceding Carol and Zosia's breakup, essentially where they're in the ski lift, the gondola, taking them up the mountain, and they're having this sort of storybook romance, globe trotting romance. I kind of knew it in the moment, but I definitely knew it upon rewatching it, is that as they get out of the gondola, you realize that the entire ski lift stops after they get out. And so it stops running in a cycle. And so obviously, all of it has been done as a production for Carol and for her romantic, ideal version of this. This love affair. And the fact that it stops and it just swings a little bit is such an ominous foreshadowing moment of their breakup to come. And also why they are going to break up and the fact that for as much as Carol thinks she has them pinned down with, you can't lie and you can't kill and you can't do this. Progress happens either way. You know, life finds a way. And, and that they, they. Just because they said we won't like that without your consent doesn't mean they're going to stop looking for ways to convert other people. And possibly Carol and Zosia starts to put the full court press on her. And you have to wonder whether or not in some way or shape or form that her love affair with Carol is about a sales pitch. And I thought it was just an amazing example of Gilligan and his team's ability to tell a story with things beyond just words, to set a tone, set a mood, and then to follow through with it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, and we talk about this with them, which was a real thrill to do. But the mastery of the show is in the marriage between the micro and the macro storytelling. Because in that moment, we as fans of television Reddit, pilled whatever we wonder, like, is Zosia now saying, aye, is she making jokes and razzing Carol about board games and croquet and that's in the previous episode, but just basically behaving more quote unquote human with her? Is that a sign of the collective evolving and how they deal with the peculiar, specific problem of Carol? Or is it all part of a larger evolutionary existential manipulation? And then, of course, what are all relationships maybe, but a delicate dance between softening yourself and making yourself vulnerable and open to other people's ideas and behaviors and kind of wanting to bring down the hammer of getting what you want out of it. Really, what is a podcast? It's finally time we just admitted it with each other. And the day you watch a meal movie, I'll know that you have been uploaded to the that's when I bring the atom bomb.

[Chris Ryan]

I have a helicopter come and drop. The wind rises.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if anybody does it better than, than the, the, the the Albuquerque crew or the Vince Gilligan creative team is run right at television's essential struggle between the desire for things, the audience's desire, and maybe often the creator's desire to grant wishes and make people enjoy things and feel good about things. And the essential, the essential note of conflict, which is what drives all storytelling. And to that point, the creation of an introduction, direct introduction of minusos is just so brilliant because in a show like this, there are no fences. They could bring in anyone or any energy in the world. And they took the time to create a. Like a heat seeking missile that is just perfectly designed to disrupt Carol's own negativity.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And also upset her conception of herself as this incredibly principled.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Basically like last person on earth, she meets the real last person on Earth. The last real hero. Or at least in terms of the way he sees it, he's here to save the world. This is a good place for us to stop. Just because I don't want to get so far ahead of ourselves that we wind up repeating ourselves with our conversation with Vince and Rhea, who were awesome guests and it was really cool to have them in studio, honestly.

[Andy Greenwald]

Dream guest to meet both of them, but also to see their dynamic with each other. And I just want to say if anyone listening is part of a team that might one day come on this podcast, also creatively, actor, writer, director, showrunner, definitely ask each other questions during the podcast because that's because make it easier for us, you know, because Ray was going right at Vince and I was like, this is great. I could just mute myself. I loved it.

[Chris Ryan]

We will be back on January 5th. We will probably talk a little bit more about the Pluribus finale. I will probably have some thoughts on the last few Stranger Things episodes. And then we have an incredibly busy January to share with our watch listeners between the Pit industry night manager, Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Tons of stuff, so we will never not have something to watch. Greenwald, great year podcasting with you. I love potting with my best friend, so it's barely work.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is the best thing we get to do. I'm so happy we get to do with you. Thank you to Kaya and Kai, who joined the team this year doing great work. Just throwing me. Both of you guys. Just throwing me hospital balls on social. I love it. Appreciate it. Appreciate all of you.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

We'll be back with you guys on January 5th, everybody. Happy Holidays and happy New Year.

[Andy Greenwald]

Happy New Year.

[Chris Ryan]

Baranski's Here we are with Vince Gilligan and Rhea Seehorn, the creator and the star of Pluribus, one of me and Andy's favorite TV shows of the year. And it's just an honor to have you guys here. This was just such an incredible season of television. I can't wait to ask you and Vince, we had you on for the PIL pilot or the premiere in the first two episodes.

[Vince Gilligan]

So seemed like it was just yesterday. Yeah, I know.

[Andy Greenwald]

It went fast.

[Vince Gilligan]

It did.

[Chris Ryan]

So thanks so much for joining us.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Congratulations on the season. Like, as you could tell, I didn't want to be there for the first interview in case you guys botched it in the back half of the season. I didn't want my name associated with it, but now I do. The show's excellent. It was a fantastic finale and we're going to talk about all of it. I have kind of a thinky question to start off with and it'll get easier, I promise. But I wanted to start with something from the finale. There's a moment when at the end of this, this magical ski trip that Carol has gone on with Zosia, a prey ski on the couch, she realizes slowly, I just wanted to say with clarity, one of us is bilingual. I won't say which language with great clarity, that this can never actually work. And this struck me as like a very universal and quite relatable moment for anyone who's ever been in a potentially doomed relationship. And usually though, it's not because your partner is going to use your harvested SEM cells to consume you into the global hive mind that is specific to this show.

[Chris Ryan]

I did date a girl in Colle.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Very similar, like super parallel story.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it's definitely chimed with something in.

[Chris Ryan]

Your past or a stem cell, actually.

[Andy Greenwald]

But this moment, this one scene from the finale really did make me think of the kind of magic trick you guys pulled off with this season where something so wild, global, insane, genre and heightened can feel relatable to our day to day existence. So there's an aspect of this question for both of you. But Vince, I wanted to start with you just in terms of crafting that scene where you take something that is about one giant thing, the other's plan here, and what they're going to do to Carol. But making it specifically about Carol's journey and her emotional relationship with this woman.

[Vince Gilligan]

In this moment, as in what goes into crafting.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I'm just curious because famously you work so collaboratively with your writers and I'm curious if this is weeks of conversation or it's just simply you always have a North Star in terms of what the story needs to be.

[Vince Gilligan]

It was, it's definitely. There's a lot of blood, sweat and tears. A lot of weeks of conversation. And our secret weapon, other than Rey in front of the camera, our secret weapon, we got a lot of secret weapons behind the camera. But starting with Gordon Smith and Alison Tadlock, who co wrote that episode. But there were a lot of conversations with all of us, all of us writers.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

The.

[Vince Gilligan]

Was it seven of us figuring this stuff out and it does not. None of it comes easily. Sometimes I just feel like, gosh, you watch it later and some smart person has insight into and says, this is kind of like every relationship in a certain sense, every new relationship, like, I guess it is. Hadn't really thought of it until just now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is it more of a math problem for you guys in the room saying, this scene has to start here with Carol here, and we have to end it with her realizing this, and then you fill in the blanks?

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah. Is it all the way back to when you're breaking the stories in the beginning?

[Vince Gilligan]

The breaking process is the most important part of the process. It is where we sit around in the room and we say, what happens next? And sometimes we get. Sometimes we do jump ahead. Sometimes we say, where should the season end? What is the biggest revelation at the end of the season? At the very beginning of the season, we didn't know there would be that respite for Carol where she finds out, oh, they need our stem cells. They need to stick a big needle in her hip. And so you find that sometimes you have a North Star. That's a good phrase. But sometimes you think you have a North Star, and you work your way forward, and then you realize that North Star was illusory. We're not going to wind up there at all.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's.

[Vince Gilligan]

Every single day is either a bold new adventure or a fresh hell, depending on how you want to look at it.

[Chris Ryan]

But you're in hell.

[Vince Gilligan]

Yeah, but you just. It's not the most satisfying answer, except to say to folks listening to this, watching this, who are struggling to do this job, know that we're struggling, too. It never gets easier, which is kind of a bummer. But on the other hand, if you look around, oh, everyone else has it easier than me. I'm having a hard time. No, no, everybody, if you're doing it right, it's not easy. So that's the best short answer I could give to it.

[Rhea Seehorn]

And you've always said, which I thought was great advice to writers, that if it comes too easy, like, then the character does this because it's just gonna make it really easy for you to make the show or the scene go where you wanted it to. You need to kick the tires on that, because it might not be actually what that character would do. Like, you need to, like, drill down.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's interesting. In the beginning of that scene, Carol has said that maybe she's happy and it's almost like an alien virus is in her body in that moment. I wondered what that felt like for you to play. Right.

[Rhea Seehorn]

We had a lot of discussions about that. And you know, Carol, when she was pre this event and this kind of misanthrope, she wasn't allowing herself to experience happiness. And I think probably mostly subconsciously, but a little bit consciously, she is aware that that wasn't the best way to go about life, that I'll be happy when I'll be content, when I'll be successful, when. And you know, even her thoughts and when she's remembering the ice hotel, she knows that she didn't allow herself to take in that kind of beauty and that kind of love when she could have. There's some willing delusion as far as feeling love. I think she is feeling affection for Zosia, but it's also coming out of being so broken by the time in isolation. Not just the 40 plus days or whatever it was, but also the existential threat that it would be forever. You're going to die alone and never speak to anybody ever again unless you make this shift. And so we had lots of conversations about what's front of mind versus back of mind, what's being suppressed versus what's in the front, how much is she allowing herself that. And then they did this brilliant thing for me to hang onto as an actor, that she's trying to be happy, she's trying to take it all in. And then much like you brought up, there's still the very human part of us that sometimes is petty, sometimes it's defensive, sometimes can't leave, you know, good enough alone. And Carol's definitely one of those people that she, everybody knows on a great date, you don't ask about exes, like, what are you doing? Like, she clearly is immediately picking at something. And that gave me the license to realize, like, okay, so that obstacle is still there. There's still a part of her that keeps. That knows you can't totally trust us in what's going on. But at the same time, craft wise, we have to. And Gordon Smith was directing it as well. Like, I'm aware when you say reverse engineering, like understanding where it has to go. I'm aware that the payoff for being hurt that. That personally hurt, on top of terrified of the news that she gets then she had to have let her heart go a little bit. She had to, you know, some of those feelings had to be real in order for in order for the kick in the face to hurt that much. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I love those scenes of the sort of more romantic interlude with Carol and Zosia, just because they're almost filmed like a fantasy. Like, they're filmed like a memory that you would have. Like a memory where you're like, I've erased the bad part of this relationship. And all I remember now is, right, us being escorted up this gondola to the. To the chalet or whatever. And I was wondering whether or not when you were doing scenes with Carolina, like, when you were doing those Zosia scenes, like, what is that? Like, what is she like as a scene partner when she is also a part of a collective consciousness, basically.

[Rhea Seehorn]

I mean, first off, hats off to her. That is such a deceptively difficult. And Carolina Widra is just crushing it. And I've had these conversations with Vince and in certain interviews in the beginning, when she was really, like, not struggling in any kind of pejorative sense, but, like, the way we should as actors, trying to dig down, like, how do you play this? And she's trying to dial it in with Vince or with Gordon or any of the writers and directors, and you suddenly, I know. She felt like, why am I not getting this? And I was like, you're having all the tools that we normally rely on as actors taken away. You cannot listen and react. You can't even. Other than certain parts of the neurodiverse population in general, humans mirror each other. We reciprocate. If you take the conversation angry or you look like something just crossed your mind, that's sad. Like, I follow. I mirror that. But she can't. But at the same time, she can't look like she's just high on Valium or a robot or, you know, she's sentient, she's compassionate. We've now reached this part, which she had to do, too. Like, evolving. These people are also evolving slightly. You see them not be able to realize that I'm being sarcastic about a grenade and get to a place where they can make a joke about an orgy. So there's some evolution happening there as well. And it's so fun. I think that Vince and all of them have made sure that you can never fully know if she's being manipulative, like in this role she's playing. But I like the larger philosophical question of, you can't really answer that about anybody. Any act of love that you're doing for somebody that you love has an objective.

[Vince Gilligan]

I hadn't thought of that. You're Right.

[Rhea Seehorn]

It's like, what is manipulation? And obviously, we see Carol get to that final place. But, sorry, Long way of saying. I just really wanted to shout out to the incredible work she's doing. It is also difficult, but I was able to at least channel that into the character. It is very difficult to come up against. And we've all been there where you're super upset and you're with somebody that keeps going. Like, I hear you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I hear you.

[Rhea Seehorn]

And that sounds like the worst part.

[Chris Ryan]

Of a fight is when somebody's like, you seem mad.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, don't tell me where I am.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah, don't therapy speak to me. And, like, we had so much fun with. They're inherently dramatic, but it makes them inherently comedic to me. The scenes where. Where Carol's getting upset and no one else is getting upset with her. And the more you. Cause we've all been there, talk about, like, find the places that are, like, what's relatable to anybody. Not only have we all been the person screaming, the barn's on fire, when everyone else is like, can you just sit down and have brunch? But also, you know, when you start to look insane and you're like, I know I look crazy. What? And you're like, I'm not helping.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not helping myself. Any sentence that starts with that is a winner. Like, that's gonna go great.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah, it's right up there with I'm fine.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just small digression since you mentioned working with Carolina and sort of working with her as she learned to play this almost this very challenging type of role. I wonder if there's anything parallel to. I mean, you joined this Vinces merry band of Albuquerque Bandits in Better Call Saul, and you had actors like Bob, who had worked with this family before and bringing you in, saying, here's how we do things. Here's how Vince does things. What was it like taking on that role with actors like Carolina and the other members of the cast being like, welcome to town. It's a land of enchantment.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Right.

[Vince Gilligan]

Make sure to hydrate.

[Andy Greenwald]

The altitude is no joke.

[Vince Gilligan]

But.

[Rhea Seehorn]

It was important to me to not so much as say, like, I guess there was a few things. This is how they work. This is how it goes. Cause I knew it was gonna be slightly different. We were gonna find this very strange tone and genre shifts together. I mean, a lot of it is on the page, and there's point of view in the scripts, and they're beautifully written. But Vince had told me early on, like, I think you said, I'm not sure what the show is yet. And I knew he didn't mean that. They didn't, like, slave over these scripts. That it was more about. We're gonna know it when we see it. As far as, like, how comedic can a scene go while still supporting? How dark. You made a moment over here. Or are they out of balance now and not in the same show anymore? And we had a lot of fun doing that. So I knew we were gonna do a lot of things differently. And I wasn't gonna hang on to, like, guys, listen. So I'm Better Call Saul. That'd be such an ass movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

On the acclaimed series of which I was an essential part.

[Rhea Seehorn]

It's right up there with the actresses. Whenever you, like, test for things and there's always one person in the room, it's like, oh, my God, you guys. I don't even want you to be nervous because they're so nice. Have you met them? I've met them so many times. Don't even worry. Oh, my God. Vince is just like. She's like, shut up. But anyway, yes, people do that, so. But I did think I want to do what people did for me on Better Call Saul. Because it was terrifying. You're like, this is a bunch of Breaking Bad people. Am I going to fit in and all this? And first of all, the whole crew and cast is super. You know, open arms. It's all about, like, hell, yes. Come bring something new. Play in the sandbox. Let's go. Literally with this bar that I think should not even be a bar. It should be a given that, like, know your stuff. Like, be fully, fully prepared and know all your lines. Nobody wants to waste. Takes on you not knowing your stuff. And then come with ideas and then be as Vince and Peter have both said, Peter Gould, be confident enough to collaborate, which is hard some days. Cause you're feeling small or scared. But the best idea in the room wins. And it's okay. You don't have to, like. You don't have to have a chip on your shoulder. You know, you can receive ideas from anywhere. And so I did tell everyone. I made sure that everybody felt like they were part of the family. And I make sure I get whoever is certainly my other supporting cast members, but also guest stars whenever possible. And Bob Odenkirk and Patrick Fabian and most of the members of Better Call Saul, if they had time, did the same. Like, go rehearse with them. Not to nail down a performance. We wanna leave that open. But to run lines to get familiar. It is not.

[Vince Gilligan]

You'd work on your own time on the weekend.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yes, we did. On the weekends. If I couldn't do it cause of my hours, then I would ask them if they could meet me in my, like out at a fitting, at my lunch break, in my trailer, anything. It's so hard. And I've been there to be a guest star and have. The only time you've said the lines out loud prior to action was by yourself in your hotel room. Yeah. Whether you're a seasoned vet or not, it's just really hard. So in that way, I just wanted to make sure people understand I'm here for you. We're all here for you. We're all gonna collaborate together. It's gonna be awesome. Technically, the only thing I went to them and said, and Samba did say, like I'm really glad you told me. That is I said, if you start getting a lot of direction that's very fine tuned, kind of modulating. The instinct for most actors is to go, wow, I must really suck. Like they cannot get what they want. And I said, they do that when they actually think you're capable of fine tuned modulation. If there's any way to get out of your head and tell yourself this might be a gift to do. Almost like an exercise where you see how much you can slightly shift a line to a 7.8 and then an 8.3. Like you will have fun and you will be a better actor at the end of the day. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And if things get tense, you can always say, look, Vince told me he doesn't even know what the show is.

[Vince Gilligan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Really, like no worry.

[Rhea Seehorn]

And then I also said, and don't look me in the eye.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, sure.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Well, of course. Sorry.

[Andy Greenwald]

We could have started with that.

[Vince Gilligan]

I did get excited when you said, we have a bar. There's a bar. And I said. And I misunderstood.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I was never invited.

[Vince Gilligan]

I was never invited.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Right. The secret to all of this is that there's an open bar master a.

[Andy Greenwald]

Little bit drunk, just a smidge.

[Chris Ryan]

I was wondering, you know, there are a few episodes here and this is for both of you. But like there are a couple episodes of this season that I imagine like a different version of the show. The script could have been like eight pages long because that's like there's not that much action in a classical sense. Like it will expand the accordion of time and Show Carol do 13 things around her house that like ordinarily most TV shows would be like, Carol walks into a room and Then, like, cut to whatever the thing that she was trying to accomplish is. And I gotta admit, I would wonder, have you done stuff like that before? Like, since, like, being on stage, like, where you have this much, like, work a day stuff to, like.

[Andy Greenwald]

And wordless depict.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And it's. And a lot of it is wordless, like, on screen.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Well, I wasn't totally surprised by that kind of storytelling because, I mean, look at the Mike Ehrmantraut scenes, you know, because of Breaking Bad and Better Calls. So I have seen them advance. I think I'm gonna get the writer language wrong. So you can help me advance the story through character development. Is that the right way? Like, it's not plot, plot, plot. Sometimes the character going through a task is what's advancing the story.

[Vince Gilligan]

And the old expression, you know, character is plot, plot is character. Sometimes. I mean, not always, but. Yeah.

[Rhea Seehorn]

But without dialog and not being afraid. I think another big component to that is that Vince assumes the intelligence of his audience.

[Vince Gilligan]

Sure.

[Rhea Seehorn]

And I think his fans feel very rewarded by that. That it's okay to let. Because in those moments, especially when I'm by myself, I realized this time around, because I had so many scenes because of the isolation sort of portrait part of the story that in those moments, that is frequently my scene partner because I'm taking their hand down the rabbit hole. Not that I'm playing to camera, you know, in that sense. But we are plotting out the same story points of this task. Whether it is burying her wife's.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Burying her wife. Putting the pavers on it. Or even just the smaller things like waking up in the morning. If they have me waking up on the couch with an empty bottle near me, I know I couldn't sleep in the bed where my wife used to sleep still. And I had to drink to get myself to fall asleep. That's a very specific way to fall asleep and a very specific way to wake up. And we all know those horrible moments when something horrific happens and you wake up the next morning and you have that little sliver of time where it's possible it was a nightmare. And then we stage it. So you know that I turn and I see Helen's body and it comes crashing down. And then it's about playing those moments with or without dialogue. I'm thinking, like, what's next? You would immediately think, well, did the whole thing happen? Is this all. Was any of it a dream? Is it all real? And you just go from there and tell the story the same as you would, without dialogue.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, as an Audience member. It's a different kind of watching than I think you're used to in contemporary television because there is a degree of wandering eye going on. I mean, just with the sheer amount of TV that I watch, sometimes I will, like, look at my phone or whatever while I'm watching something, but it's disappointing.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't even have a phone.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll give up my Apple TV subscription if it's like, as a penalty. But it's like, I can't do that with this show at all. You know, you have to. Because even if you think, like, what could I possibly see on this version of her listening to the voicemail message on this time, there's always something. There is always something being revealed. There's always something that you can be like, I now mark her I emotional journey here because of this or whatever. And it's like. It's like actually just close watching. It's such a fast. And it's not a question. It's really more of just.

[Vince Gilligan]

I'm. I'm astounded by it too. I mean, yeah, we wrote it because we knew we are able to have that tool in the toolbox because we know Ray will pull it off. And not everybody can. I mean, not every actor can. And I mean, it's just, yeah, you can watch her over and over again. That's what the highest compliment for anything I can ever have a hand in making is if people want to rewatch it. And if people get together on their own time, then talk about it. And we hear anecdotally that that's happening a lot. And it, again, so much of it is Ray's ability to be watched and rewatched. And it's, you know, I used to think, you know, what is it that movie stars have? Is it. What kind of. There's a certain charisma and there is. And it's ineffable and it's hard to. You know, a lot of people, for many decades, generations, have tried to figure out what it is. I don't know what it is, but I do know that when an actor is having all of that is doing that hard work that Ray is doing. And also all of these actors are. I mean, just as an example, Carlos Manuel Vezka in the last episode there, incredible 107, he's all by himself too, for a big chunk. And what both these actors have in common is they have this inner life. I'm just repeating kind of different words what Ray just said. But there's a version of acting where you can just sort of, where's the light? Is the light hitting me? Where am I? On my mark. And let the audience provide the context and the interpretation. But Ray is actively doing all that stuff. And you can see. Not my finest jumbotron face. Ray has a face like a jumbotron screen. And it was. I think it just popped into my head because it was right after that. The Coldplay thing. Yeah, the Coldplay. But it was like, you know, it's like. I meant it. I meant it well. I had good intentions, but it was like you see everything without any words. I mean, without any dialogue. So it's. Not. Everybody can do that.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Oh, thanks. Yeah, he came right in. We were doing some press junk. I mean, he was in a different room. And we come into the hall, and he's like, I need to tell you something. I just said.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I was like, why?

[Rhea Seehorn]

He was like, I want to explain jumbotron. I was like, what? You said like theater. And I absolutely agree. It is, to me, Better Call Saul. And now Pluribus have been the closest to my experiences on stage. Yeah, I remember seeing the Humans in New York, the play. And Reed. Bernie has a moment in the beginning where he just. It's very. To hold. We used to call it sometimes holding the stage. You don't have to be doing something as long as you're thinking the thoughts. And you'll suddenly get in sync with the thinking the thoughts, telling the story of the character and what they're doing. And why are they pausing right now? Especially if it's not direct address, it's about something else that you're inviting them into. And Reid did it. And the audience will start. It's like their heart starts sinking with yours, and the breathing starts sinking with you. And you can hear a pin drop. And used to do that a lot. You're right. A lot of television will cut it. So you kind of almost start becoming afraid to add thoughtful pauses or meditative moments because they get cut. And then it looks like your timing is weird when they put it together. I learned a lot watching Jonathan Banks on Saul. I would go to set a lot to watch him because he had these long periods, and he's really, really good at inviting the camera in. Because I had a habit in the beginning that when they would give me very private moments, I would instinctively turn away from the camera because I do think of it as another entity there. And Jonathan will turn towards it without ever looking, like he's just playing the camera, and just let it be and let them Be in on the secret. And I talked to him a lot about that, and it was very helpful to me.

[Chris Ryan]

That's really cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's a confidence, Vince, to some of the scenes that you include in the series. And Chris mentioned the Patrick Fabian voicemail, and it's just like she's calling the phone. Surely they'll cut away from it this time. And they don't, and we enjoy it. But I think it's worth drilling down a little further. Cause it's definitely not in those moments.

[Chris Ryan]

My wife was actually on the 10th time. She's like, it's coming back around.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Do you like it?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think you're in the writer's room going, make them watch it again. I sleep on a bed of Emmys. I don't think it's that. I do think that there is a level of confidence that is earned here because it's not just the incredible actors you have to hang these wordless scenes on, but you have, I would imagine. I'd love to hear you talk about it. A shorthand with production writ large. Like, you couldn't write these scenes if you didn't have the relationship with the locations, with the people who've been working on your shows, with your writers, with your directors to pull it off. The editors. Exactly. Every visual element. Because sometimes when scenes are overwritten, it's because the writer is just like, I can only control this.

[Vince Gilligan]

That's a very astute observation. Yeah. And these people, they've been working with some of them almost two decades now. So, yeah, it's funny. The life is just rich with ironies. I love that you are saying, oh, you must be very confident. I am the least confident person I've ever met. But some things I have a little more confidence about than others. And part of it is I'm never gonna go broke assuming the audience is smarter than I am. And that has held us in good stead. All of us assume that the writers, starting with us, we all assume that the audience knows more than we. And also the little spark of confidence in the knowledge that we don't need all of the audience. There are you guys. God bless you guys for digging what we do. God bless the folks listening. I assume they're fans, too, but there's a whole world of people. Like, this show sucks. This show. All she does is wander around. It's a small world, but it's. That is as it should be. That's not a bad thing. If the audience was monolithic, the world would be the others.

[Chris Ryan]

Better that than everybody being like, it's okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have no reaction to this content whatsoever.

[Vince Gilligan]

We don't need everyone on Earth. We just. I don't even know what we need. That's Apple's in their wheelhouse, not mine, as far as how many viewers they need to make something worthwhile. But I have confidence in that. Ray is very watchable. And I have confidence in. Thank you. It's the truth. And I have confidence in that people, there is an audience for this. It's not every human being on Earth, but it's enough. I have confidence that the audience will reward us if we deal them squarely, deal with them fairly, don't break the rules midstream, don't. You know. But it just. And also hearing the example you gave, hearing Patrick Fabian over and over again, it wasn't in some weird way torturing the audience. It was more about what is the effect this would have on Carol. And I knew every single day. I had confidence that every single time Ray would find a different way to listen to this voicemail, this outgoing message. I knew that every single time she would find a different way and she would make it funny.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, all of your responses are so different after you get the last Westgate message. All the calls you make after that are like, no, fuck you.

[Vince Gilligan]

You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

Bring me a Gatorade. You know, there's a small thing.

[Rhea Seehorn]

We had fun too. Like, one of the last time she's listening to it after Diabate, played by the absolutely brilliant samba, Shuta, has given her this news about. You can tell them you don't consent. The director, Ganja Montero, came over and she said, and you can see it in the wide, but it is a wide shot. She was like. She goes, maybe Carol would be like a little bit embarrassed about this message that they won't even talk to her that that's how bad her behaved. Cause I have not told. Maybe the others. The others probably did tell Diavate that they don't speak to me. But Carol doesn't fully know that. And it's a little embarrassing. So even though she's like, diane, get through the message, because I want to tell you your own consent. There's a small part that I added with her direction that made me laugh where I'm just like. Like, it's just fine. Just kind of like, no big deal. I think it's just a busy signal. I got it.

[Andy Greenwald]

I gotta push back on the no confidence thing in One specific way. This is an anecdote that we tell all the time. And you can tell us if this is completely untrue. But I think one of the most inspiring and wild anecdotes about the last 20 years of TV writing is the idea that you guys in the Breaking Bad room did not know what the gun in Walter White's trunk was going to be used for when you introduced it at the beginning of that season.

[Vince Gilligan]

That's true.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Or the stuffed animal in the pool.

[Chris Ryan]

Which blows my mind.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you do keep making things hard for yourself and then writing yourself out of it. And I wondered if dropping an atom bomb on the front yard was an attempt to, let's say, escalate things even further for you guys. Or if you have a little more of a roadmap this time.

[Vince Gilligan]

We have a little more of a roadmap this time. That was the stupidity of youth with that M60 in the trunk of the Cadillac. That was the dumbest thing ever. I think we had.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you regret it for a long time? Oh.

[Vince Gilligan]

There were times in the right. That was one of the lowest points ever in any writer's room. I literally.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is our heroic story.

[Vince Gilligan]

I would stand against the wall at a certain point, and I would just slowly bang my head against the wall. And the writers were just like, dude, are you all right? And it wasn't that hard, but just trying to knock the ideas loose. And they were just all just kind of the long silences. Long, uncomfortable silences. And I would say, let's have a flight of fancies.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's.

[Vince Gilligan]

Let's pretend we never did the M60 machine gun. And then they're all like, okay, sure, let's do that for five minutes. And then let's get back to reality, because you have to pay off the machine gun in the trunk. And we. It was. It was like.

[Rhea Seehorn]

You also told me occasionally he'd be like, so then Walt goes to the car, he opens the trunk and puts his suitcase. And they were like, no, you can't open his trunk. And it's like, damn it.

[Chris Ryan]

He got drunk.

[Andy Greenwald]

He just kept trying to yada, yada the guy.

[Vince Gilligan]

Yeah, I plead guilty to that. I don't. We have ideas for what the atom bomb is for. And I think we had the pink teddy bear. I think we kind of knew in our hearts that it came from. It was a classic bit of. Or classic or not. It was a bit of misdirection. Sure it was. Oh, my God. There must have been a terrible shootout in the house here. Oh, no, it came from the sky.

[Rhea Seehorn]

It was.

[Vince Gilligan]

What is the most unlikely explanation for all this crap in the pool? Oh, it was a. But then it can't just be a random aircraft collision. Walter White has to have been responsible for it. That stuff was tough, but there was nothing ever tougher than the M60 machine gun. That was just. That was hubris on my part. Oh, we'll figure it out. We got all year. I, I, I deserve all the pain that I inflicted upon myself, but the writers did not.

[Andy Greenwald]

I suppose if, if Ray gets the script for 201 and Carol's just storing her whiteboard markers in the atom bomb cabinet that we know nothing in there.

[Vince Gilligan]

It's fine.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by EA Sports FC 26 play your way this holiday season with an overhauled gameplay experience powered by community feedback. Enjoy festive upgrades and ultimate team with winter wild cards. Take on holiday themed challenges and manage your career like navigating the busy Christmas period. And team up with friends and clubs with new tournaments and live events. The club is yours. Give the gift of football with EA Sports FC 26. Rated E for everyone. Includes in game purchases. Includes random items this episode is brought to you by Rocket Money Ever feel like your money just disappears each month? It's easier than ever to overspend. From subscriptions piling up to impulse buys and after seeing that on your phone, to ordering takeout a few times a month, Rocket Money helps you rein it in by showing you where your money is going and help you to make better decisions so you can keep more money in your pocket. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Their dashboard lays out your total financial picture, including bill due dates and paydays, in a way that's easy to digest. You can even automatically create custom budgets based on your past spending. If you've got a goal you'd like to save for, Rocket Money can analyze your accounts to find the best time each month. To put extra money aside, Rocket Money has saved users over 2.5 billion, including over 880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to 740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions. Reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com theringer that is RocketMoney.com theringer RocketMoney.com theringer this episode is brought to you by Whole Foods market. You'll find everything you need for the holidays at Whole Foods Market. If you're entertaining, explore limited time seasonal desserts like the holiday Rum cake and much more. And for the main event, serve show stopping centerpiece mains like bone in spiral cut ham and they're bone in rib roast, succulent and special. They've even got great gifts like seasonal candles from 365 brand at everyday low prices In a hurry, skip the crowds and order online for pickup and delivery and select zip codes. Shop for everything you need at a Whole Foods Market, your holiday headquarters. This episode is brought to you by McAfee. When it's game day, everything moves at full throttle. But McAfee's secure VPN is like your digital defensive line, always working to protect your info when you're on public wi fi. Whether you're checking fantasy scores at the Watch party or posting pics at the stadium, visit mcafee.com online protection today to get award winning online protection for just 39.99 your first year. Cancel anytime terms apply.

[Chris Ryan]

The Minutso's plot is something that's fascinating to me because his journey is so electrifying to watch. You know that road trip that he takes to get through the Darien Gap and to get to Carol and you're playing it when he arrives very defensively, but also kind of like this is my home turf and I have my ideas about how I want things to go here. And I almost was curious whether or not do you have to turn off the side of your brain that knows what else is happening in the other half of these scripts or in the other half of this story when you're acting just Carol's POV from those scenes?

[Rhea Seehorn]

Well, we only get our scripts one at a time. I I am usually around in the middle of shooting, like let's say six when I get seven.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Rhea Seehorn]

And occasionally I'll ask a few questions. But mostly, and this started happening on Better Call Saul, I realized it's not really like if I'm doing a play, understanding what the end point is is gonna help me to reverse engineer what the most interesting point A is right to take that journey. But I think a lot of times we end up asking where something's going to help. And I have on other series to help understand. Like how do I help tell this story? I need to make sure that my character I know later that I'm gonna find out that my character's lying. So that's part of me playing it now versus I find in the world that Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould were creating, that you're not. You're playing. It's not necessary. They don't need me to telegraph to the audience where the story's going. That's not my job anymore. And it was actually nice to have that burden taken away because oftentimes my RAM space is totally full with what I'm playing right now. Like, there's a lot going on when he shows up, you know, it's a reminder that she's terrified. That, like, deep down I'm being called out for, like, not at all following through with my revolution that I plotted. I'm also lying through my. That I don't know why they came back. Beats me. I can see that he can see that I'm lying, which is so fun to play. And he's a wonderful scene partner. She's protective, but also baseline. Cause somebody asked me the other day, they were like, she's just so rude. Though. As soon as he comes up, I was like, he showed up with a machete. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

In an ambulance.

[Rhea Seehorn]

In an ambulance. And was like, I'm coming in. And then bats my phone away from me. Like, I'm allowed to be a little pissy. It's very. All the energies they've put me next to, whether it's Zosya or Diabate's energy. And now minusos, like, they're, again, inherently dramatic but inherently comedic as well. If we just play our objectives. Cause we're both immovable objects in that scene.

[Andy Greenwald]

I wanna talk specifically about the playing Carol against different energy because the logline is the most miserable person in the world. Must save the world, Vince. In the earliest days, like the blue sky days of the writer's room. What drove you to create the character of Minucos in the way that you did? Potentially knowing that that specific friction would be so interesting because you'd almost, as a cliche would think that, oh, you'd pair the miserable with the joyful. And you'd think Mr. Diabate would be the pairing that would be doing some sort of thing. You've chosen someone who is even more hardcore than she is, which is totally surprising and pays off beautifully.

[Vince Gilligan]

You just sort of think about it all day long and slowly bang your head against the writer's room wall. Is there a dent there at.

[Chris Ryan]

Pretty much it's a machine gun trash can at hhm.

[Vince Gilligan]

Right. It looks like the trash can at hh. It's like having a bunch of Legos on a table and fitting them together. Is this pleasing? Let's try this. And that's kind of the job. It's not elegant. It's not an elegant process. It is a brute force process sometimes. In the case of that example, we already knew, I guess reverse engine. Trying to come up with a good answer about a great question that I had never thought about before. How did we do it? I guess I figured. Well, we figured because it is kind of a communal mind in the writer's room sometimes. But we figured there's already a pretty unhappy lady with the happiest person on Earth, Zosia. So we already have that dynamic. So what other dynamic? Because you do want to put opposites or very different energy levels together because that leads to drama. We've got kind of a Private Benjamin kind of character. For folks who remember that movie we got in Carol. Let's put her against a hardcore Navy seal. They both have similar goals, except they're going to go about them in a very different fashion. That's probably what the thinking was there.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you had a cleaner way to deal with Chekhov's gun in the car this time than you did in Breaking Bad. The shotgun and the cop car dealt with it very cleanly. Yes, it did come back.

[Vince Gilligan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

No headbanging necessary.

[Vince Gilligan]

Exactly. I love the way you played that. And I love the way Gordon directed that in episode 105, where after this terrible night, sleeping in the police car with the gumball lights going. And then it's like you notice this button. Son of a bitch. I love that scene. That scene made me. And then finding the handcuff key.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yes. Cause I found. I like. It's so wonderfully illustrative of just like. Of Carol. Like she frequently goes about things the hardest way to.

[Vince Gilligan]

That's her M.O. always the hardest. Just, you know, I got a three in the morning with a flashlight. Like motor and Scully. Oh, dead body parts. It's like you could have just asked him. Yep.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah. When Diavantes is like. I asked him. That's how I found out.

[Vince Gilligan]

He said, dude, why do you drink so much milk? Yeah. Yeah. I love.

[Chris Ryan]

Wanted to ask you about. One of my favorite parts of the character is Carol's relationship to substance abuse and the way that it kind of dots along as these little punctuation marks throughout the season of the Breathalyzer. In the beginning of the season, the sensor inside of the liquor cabinet, the reference to heroin use and obviously the. The truth serum sequence. And tell me a little bit about like. Because it's interesting how it's not her. It's not like her, like, I'm leading with this. I'm in recovery or whatever. It's always in the background. I really loved that aspect of the character.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Oh, thanks. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. We've been having so much fun speaking to journalists that even like hardcore jaded journalists that actually want to talk about philosophical questions about what this is bringing up for them. And we're hearing all these different things. That's why it's wonderful, as you might imagine, you know, like, is it commentary on AI? But that was coming from an editor of a major publication. And he was just sure it was. And I said, but that's the forefront of your mind you're bringing to this show. What is the existential threat for you right now? You know, when Vince started writing it 10 years ago, you know, the AI existed, but not the debate topic it is now. Likewise, the pandemic lockdown hadn't. And I bring that up because I had a journalist once say that she thought the entire thing, the entire show is a metaphor and portrait of grief and depression.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Rhea Seehorn]

You know, being down a well and you can't. And people are saying, cheer up. And you can't hear them and you can try to fake it, but you can't keep faking all this. And then another person said they think the whole show is about addiction. Wow. The entire thing. And I was like, that's so fascinating. And it's not. No, it isn't. Cause there is no right answer. It's everything. It's about human nature. And with that part component that you're bringing up, I did ask. This was important to me. I said, let me know if this is a portrait of alcoholism. I need to layer that in. That's a different. And they said it's not. It's not. It is a. I can't remember the exact phrases that were told to me to help me in discovering all that stuff, but it had more to do with. This is a self medication issue. Another way to block the world out. This misanthrope that she takes too far sometimes. And clearly her wife was worried about her, but not worried about, like she did that because they were trying to freeze eggs. Right. Do you know what I mean? So it was tied to a specific event. So I felt like we kept it just from going off the cliff of like, we should.

[Chris Ryan]

Carol should be. That whole revelation is so great because it's in conjunction with minusos being convinced that they're being surveilled, you know, and so, like, the parallel is awesome when that happens.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Ye. I Think Carol takes a lot of things too far. Yeah, I think.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, thank God she's very good at moderation.

[Vince Gilligan]

Oh, that'll end fine.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah, she's not a moderate kind of gal and that's one example of it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Vince, I wonder what the experience has been like for you because as Rhea just mentioned, this was an idea that you've been kicking around for a while. And over time I'm sure it's been shaded, details have emerged. You found Rhea to be the perfect star for it and then events kind of started to chime with it in interesting ways and it's proven to be a very seaworthy conceit that can be a mirror for so many of our own issues of our time. This is a high minded question for a guy who's just been banging his head against the wall for 10 years. But I wonder what has that experience been like as a creator realizing that you have some to reference the end of the season, some fissile material here.

[Vince Gilligan]

Oh, I love the way you put that. It's amazing. I spent the last. How long did it take us to do. It's been like three years. I've lost track of the time.

[Rhea Seehorn]

So you mean since you sent me the first script?

[Vince Gilligan]

Yes, probably three. Three years, probably. Okay. And then it took us quite a while to make the show. And then the first season, it took us quite a while to edit it and do all the visual effects. The last however many X number of years, let's call it three. Although I'd been thinking about it for almost ten, I was telling myself, and then three in the morning, you wake up in the middle of the night and worry about. About things. And I kept telling myself, it's okay to move away from Breaking Bad. The single biggest, the first thing on your tombstone, Breaking Bad. Most likely it's okay to move away from that because you had it and just remember how INSANE the year 2013 was. Like, you know, that was the closest I'll ever get to being like a rock and roll star or something. Walking down the street and people like, oh my God, Breaking Bad, it's never going to happen again. And go forward with courage. Try something new. Because even if this thing, everybody collectively yawns when it comes out and then says, I should have done more Breaking Bad, at least you will have had the. You can be proud of yourself. You had the courage to try something new. And then this thing comes out and it's just like, I don't know beyond my wildest expectations about the reaction to it. And if it is fissile material, as you say. The timing was perfect. That's just dumb luck. I mean, we always make the best show we can make. That's always. We're never not gonna do that. But then, as with anybody else, everybody else is out there making the best show they can make too, no matter what show it is. Because that's why you get into this business. You have love and passion, you want to make great things, and then the chips fall where they fall. Anyone who says luck doesn't play a hand is lying either to themselves or to the person they're talking to.

[Rhea Seehorn]

I would say about you, though, I think the fact that you, you don't write to particular themes, you're not trying to preach a specific thing lends a timeless quality to it that is meeting the world right now in a place where. Cause what I'm hearing from a lot of people is this show is this great conduit for them to have some very nuanced conversations about a lot of areas that we have been thinking about for the last decade. As Victoria Very binary response. It's true. It is definitely this or this. And with a lot of it. And seeking a way to have some conversations that are more nuanced and based in what does it mean to be human and what does happiness mean? And even you've said this before, like, seeking happiness doesn't mean avoiding all struggle, avoiding all thought provoking or difficult situations and conversations. And you've always thought that. So I just feel like the fact that he wasn't setting out to write to a particular thing is part of why it's seaworthy. But I did have a question, if I may. When stuff started coming out like the pandemic or AI, were you like, crap, they're going to think that's about this?

[Vince Gilligan]

I seriously thought that when the pandemic hit, I remember thinking, oh my God, the last thing on earth that anyone is going to want to buy or watch is something that they feel is about yet another pandemic. And I seriously, I had some dark days around. We all had a lot of darkness.

[Andy Greenwald]

Over your sourdough starter. You're working and working it being like.

[Vince Gilligan]

Oh, no, 2020 was a tough year for everybody. But I remember thinking, oh my God, this thing I've been working on now for five years, no one's going to want it. And luckily I work slower than glaciers. So then another five years went by.

[Chris Ryan]

And everyone almost in time for the next one.

[Rhea Seehorn]

You're like, I got to get this out before the next Pandemic.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or now you have to do another season. So just to leave it on that note, where are you in that process? Is there a third whiteboard behind Carol's two that has the whole plot?

[Vince Gilligan]

Oh, man, I wish. I wish elves would write all this out on a dry erase board and then I could go take credit. Or Carol, for that matter. That'd be great. We are plugging away. Yesterday we had our final day in the writers room of season two. Don't get too excited. For this year. For the year 2025.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Exact.

[Vince Gilligan]

We are plugging away. We think we know what the first episode. What happens in the first episode. And we're gonna keep nose to the grindstone and pedal to the metal in 2026. But it takes longer than I wish it did. The old expression, you can have it good, you can have it fast, you can have it cheap. Pick two, you don't get all three. And we definitely cannot figure out how to do it fast. But we're having a good time. I got writers and can't wait to see what Ray and Carolina and Veska and samba and all these wonderful actors do with season two. It's going to be. It's going to be fun getting.

[Rhea Seehorn]

I don't know anything.

[Vince Gilligan]

Yeah. I haven't told you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Now's a chance to ask him. You got him on the record.

[Chris Ryan]

How is Carol's golf game in season two?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, this is all he wants to talk about. I can close my laptop.

[Chris Ryan]

I got multiple texts being like, God, you can tell. Like the swing thoughts are different. You know, 45 days in versus when you first play on the course.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah, good. My swings. I. Cause I'm taking golf lessons now for the character.

[Chris Ryan]

Out of personal interest.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Personal. And for something else. But I'm like, now it pains me. I just didn't. I feel so bad.

[Chris Ryan]

There's nothing worse than watching yourself swing a golf club lessons.

[Rhea Seehorn]

And I see that my stance is. I think I pulled off looking like somebody who does golf just not really, really well, which is what I wanted to get to. And I ran out of time. I did the best I could.

[Chris Ryan]

When you were in the skyscraper, you were dialed.

[Rhea Seehorn]

I had nothing to do with where the ball go. That is Diane Mercer in post.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. You talked about the show being a mirror. Chris really only wanted to talk about the golf swing and the zins that were for sale in the gas station. Oh, that. There were no zins.

[Chris Ryan]

It was all cigarettes. And my buddy. And I was like. Was like, do you think that the. Are the others use Zinn, because.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Interesting.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, they've cleaned them out, my friend.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like a. I'm glad I get to do this. It's like a tobacco pouch, like a nicotine pouch. Yeah, but very popular with golfers, actually.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Unfortunately popular with teens.

[Chris Ryan]

Teens, yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not a good thing.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Don't do it.

[Chris Ryan]

48 year old men.

[Rhea Seehorn]

My friend only wanted to talk about the lottery tickets in that scene, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Something for everyone.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Well, I just couldn't stop wrapping their head around like. So is there any joy in winning the lottery? If money doesn't matter, do you still feel like a winner? But like everybody won, right? So does it matter? I cannot answer these questions, but I.

[Vince Gilligan]

Thought your reaction was perfect. Because. Because it's like.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah.

[Vince Gilligan]

And then it's over.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah. It means nothing. But it is. Somehow I thought like that reaction for me was born out of like. Well, at least it has nothing to do with them. It is my own success because it's based on odds and luck that they didn't do.

[Vince Gilligan]

Yeah, see, because I love the way you played it. But you could have also gone. Now I fucking win the lottery. What about the last 30 years?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, when you could just go to Fort Knox. Anyway, Ray, Vince, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much much for this season of tv.

[Vince Gilligan]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Thanks for having us.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Of course.

[Andy Greenwald]

This was a pleasure.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Thanks.

[Andy Greenwald]

Super fun.

[Vince Gilligan]

Thank you guys.