What We Watched Over the Holidays: The End of ‘Stranger Things,’ ‘Marty Supreme,’ ‘Heated Rivalry,’ and ‘Landman’

Summary

The Watch — Episode Summary

Podcast: The Watch, The Ringer
Hosts: Andy Greenwald & Chris Ryan
Episode: What We Watched Over the Holidays: The End of ‘Stranger Things,’ ‘Marty Supreme,’ ‘Heated Rivalry,’ and ‘Landman’
Date: January 5, 2026

---

Episode Overview

Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald kick off the new year with a lively rundown of what they watched over the holiday break. Covering the highly anticipated finale of Stranger Things, the Safdie brothers’ Marty Supreme, Max’s breakout hit Heated Rivalry, and the bumpy latest run of Taylor Sheridan’s Landman, the duo balances nostalgia, critique, and a healthy dose of comedic banter. The conversation moves fluidly from TV and film criticism to running jokes about pop culture, family habits, and the ever-surprising quirks of TV’s biggest auteurs.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Holiday Viewing Habits & Theatergoing (00:30–03:21)

• Chris recounts feeling rejuvenated by a trip “pounding the pavement” on the East Coast, taking in plays in New York.
• Andy jokes about his thriving (fictional) oil futures portfolio, a segue into one of their main show targets: Landman.

2. TV in January & Anticipated Returns (04:48–07:02)

• The hosts express excitement for a "bountiful January" with returning favorites (Industry, The Pit) and new shows.
• Andy values watching week-to-week, avoiding pre-release bingeing, and respecting embargoes (“One of the things that I respect is embargoes.” — Chris, 05:52).

---

3. Stranger Things Finale: Reflections and Cultural Impact (07:03–20:49)

The “End of an Era” Moment

• Andy brings up the Stranger Things finale, noting, “This really is Stranger Things ended. Now just to fully contextualize it for our new listeners, … my older daughter is completely obsessed.” (07:03)
• Jokes about actor Joe Keery’s ascendance and his daughter's “completely Joe Keery coded” lock screen (07:33).
• Discussion of younger viewers’ algorithm-driven relationships with culture—liking one song but not caring about the rest (“The idea of being, like, super into just one song by a person.” — Andy, 09:07).

Series Evaluation

• Chris summarizes his experience watching the finale with family, praising its eventized holiday vibe but critiquing the series’ trajectory:

  “I found the finale to be like, nice, you know. Like, I think this show for me probably peaked with its, its first and, and second to some extent seasons and that the way that they kind of made it all about the mechanics of like the upside down...it basically became very video game in its logic and in its execution.” (10:00)

• On the finale, Chris rates it a “five” out of ten on the Pitchfork scale, with the “coda” (epilogue) “probably like a six or a seven” (11:26).

Critiquing the Show’s Growth & Endgame

• Andy compares Stranger Things with Lost, noting the challenge shows face when stretching far beyond their original scope:

  “You strike gold with all the things that make TV good...but inevitably with a show like that...I can’t imagine the Duffer Brothers would be like, 'We always imagined an endgame with Vecna.'” (12:03)

Notable Finale Spoilers/Highlights

• Chris breaks down the mechanics-heavy ending: multiple dimensions (Hawkins, Upside Down, the Abyss), Elle’s (Eleven’s) sacrifice, Hawkins’ surreal “gold rush” postscript.

  "Hawkins is this hotly contested interdimensional property now...There’s this huge destructive thing...Elle closes the gate to all of this and sacrifices herself." (17:04–18:46)

• Surreal, comic notes about Hawkins’ post-apocalypse housing boom and lack of press attention.

Generational Connection / 80s Vibes

• Andy asks if younger fans connect with the show’s '80s setting; Chris notes his daughter recognizes the lack of technology but is frustrated by analog obstacles ("Why doesn't she just search that up?"). (15:18–15:37)

The 18-Month Ellipsis

• Amusing detour into the trope of “18 months later” time skips in TV and film (Stranger Things finale, Sleepless in Seattle), debating the ideal period for moving on from trauma or death (19:54–21:13).

---

4. Marty Supreme: Safdie Brothers’ Film as Theater Experience (22:17–37:41)

The Movie-Going Experience

• Andy shares his exhilaration at seeing Marty Supreme in theaters, breaking from his usual low theater attendance:

  “I was so exhilarated and transported by seeing this movie in the theater. I loved it. I loved the movie. I loved the experience.” (24:23)

World-Building and Production

• Chris praises production designer Jack Fisk, explaining true “world-building” as making the setting “tactile” and lived-in:

  “When you watch Marty supreme…the sort of tactile nature of the New York that they create...it's so captivating." (25:31)

• The music by Daniel Lopatin is noted for its transformative effect.

Chalamet’s Performance & Casting

• Both hosts agree Timothée Chalamet anchors the film.

  “I have taken all caveats away from my embrace [of Chalamet]." — Andy (27:19)

• Chris observes that Chalamet is uniquely positioned as both classic and modern movie star, appealing to young audiences while having old-Hollywood chops (29:01).
• Notable casting of non-traditional actors (Pico Iyer as the ping-pong chairman; NBA stars; writers) gives the movie a lived-in, textured feel (30:43–33:14).

Artistic Risks & Music Choices

• Chris and Andy discuss the bold, anachronistic needle drops—music from different eras in a 1950s setting:

  “You have to be fearless, but you have to be committed to an idea...to commit to something that fully and then to not even be like, this is why I did it in the film itself is so brave and fearless.” (33:22)

• Andy’s only complaint: the closing song, being “so overly dropped,” momentarily took him out of the story (35:07).

Movie’s Unique Energy

• The film uses real faces, unconventional actors, and evocations of memory to create a one-of-a-kind experience—Andy likens it to sports, hoping a “wrong note” wouldn’t break the magic (“...please don’t blow this lead. I was so in love with my...I was so in love with the experience I was having.” — 36:36).

---

5. Heated Rivalry: Max’s Must-See Queer Hockey Saga (38:19–44:46)

• Chris highlights Heated Rivalry as the “number one show on the Max streaming app” and an awards contender.
• Praises Jacob Tierney’s direction and adaptation, especially the fifth (penultimate) episode’s powerful montage of a hockey player coming out while Wolf Parade’s “I’ll Believe in Anything” plays ("I've checked this out so many times...the filmmaking in it...is so high level ... cinematic...just really compelling." — Chris, 41:53).
• Notes the show could have been a straightforward soap, but instead becomes “cinematic,” balancing raw emotion, psychological realism, and queer coming-of-age.
• Andy reflects on the prestige TV “penultimate episode death” trope and Heated Rivalry’s subversion, focusing on “the ripples” rather than a death (43:05).
• Memorable exchange about the power of music cues and small moments resonating across generations.

---

6. Landman: Taylor Sheridan’s Chaotic Oil Drama (45:28–65:44)

Late-Stage Sheridan & The Slump

• Andy: “Landman's hit a little bit of a slump. Let's just, let's call it what it is.” (45:47)
• Taylor Sheridan’s control and high-volume output lead to wild tonal swings and fragmented storytelling; shows lose direction when his focus wanes.

  “The shows only convey what Taylor Sheridan’s attention span holds for the microsecond that he spends working on each script...” (49:54)

• Parallels drawn to other prolific showrunners and why Sheridan is different.

The Absurdity & Inconsistency

• Chris and Andy dissect the show’s wild narrative swings: "He just throws all this stuff at the wall...He's like, it all works." (53:26)
• The notorious “Cialis breakfast scene,” where Billy Bob Thornton’s character’s erection leads to chaos with room service. The hosts debate who’s to blame for such a scene (53:08).
• Comedic breakdown of another subplot: hiring a stripper to become Sam Elliott’s dad’s physical therapist (“in response to his elderly father being discovered lying in a hot tub...he hires a stripper to be his father's physical therapist.” — Andy, 56:53).
• Lampooning undercooked plotlines and inconsistency in character arcs.

Notable Quotes

• “There are moments, such as the breakfast scene, where I'm like, this is actually awful. Everything about this is bad. And this is bad for the world and bad for me personally that I'm watching this.” — Andy (55:55)
• “I think that you have had the full Taylor Sharon experience in just a few months of Landman. You've experienced the high highs, the confusing middle and the lowest of lows…” — Chris (64:49)
• “The structure of the show is built out of paper mache and it's a bummer.” — Andy (47:56)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Chalamet in Marty Supreme: “I have taken all caveats away from my embrace [of Chalamet].” — Andy (27:19)
• On TV’s evolving relationship to endings: “There is no naturally satisfying ending to a show that didn’t have...the end at the beginning.” — Andy (12:52)
• On Landman randomness: “He just throws all this stuff at the wall. Most people would be like, this works, this works, this works, this doesn't. Especially not together. And since he has kind of carte blanche, he's like, it all works.” — Chris (53:26)
• On watching with the next generation: “I welcome this, because it is...have you been watching along as she watches, or is she just watching it on iPad?” — Andy (16:17)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Holiday check-in, setting the table: 00:30–03:21
• TV in January, weekly viewing: 04:48–07:02
• Stranger Things Finale: 07:03–20:49
• Marty Supreme movie discussion: 22:17–37:41
• Heated Rivalry on Max: 38:19–44:46
• Landman, Taylor Sheridan’s slump: 45:28–65:44

---

Overall Tone

Warm and irreverent, filled with thoughtful (and opinionated) media criticism interlaced with personal anecdotes, running gags, and digressions that keep the conversation vibrant and inviting for fans old and new. The hosts’ long-standing rapport shines through their witty exchanges and casual candor.

---

For Listeners New and Returning

This episode provides a rich, entertaining guide to what’s new and notable across TV and film this winter, offering both hot takes and deeper insights—whether you missed the latest Stranger Things, are looking for your next must-see drama, or just want to laugh at the chaos of Landman.

Transcript

[A]

Pain Support staff to clear the room.

[B]

Stand up and walk now.

[A]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio for another year, it's Marty Supreme Clientele, it's Andy Greenwald.

[B]

This is good. It's good New Year's energy.

[A]

What's up, man?

[B]

You look and sound rested, replenished, reborn in a lot of ways.

[A]

I mean, I've been out there. I've been pounding the pavement on the East Coast. You have been the east coast metropolises of New York City and Philadelphia. My voice feels a little bit off, honestly, but my energy is great. My mind is sharp.

[B]

Couple Lucy's and Zoron's America.

[A]

Yeah, I did have some heaters.

[B]

I did.

[A]

I smoked a Capri Slim.

[B]

Okay, that sounds, you know, like, just.

[A]

Like a Slim cigarette.

[B]

Did you. Who'd you pawn that off of?

[A]

My wife.

[B]

Just put it around on Front Street. See, Sorry. Okay.

[A]

The health insurance premiums are paid, so.

[B]

Did you like the skinny nature of the cigarette?

[A]

It tasted like a rolly, you know, as the English kind of, you know, roll their cigarettes. It didn't have a lot of the. Like.

[B]

This is the difference between Turkish Power Camels. I thought you were mispronouncing Rolo. The caramel candies that my children like.

[A]

They made cigarettes taste like Rolos. They'd be fully back.

[B]

So back.

[A]

Greenwald, what an amazing time to be alive. Here we are in Taylor Sheridan's America and it is 2026. The inbox to reach us is still the [e-mail].

[B]

How'D it do over the holidays?

[A]

Our email inbox. Yeah, we got a couple. I got one over the weekend from a lovely lady from the south who wanted to call us out on some of our are like litigation of Rebecca from Landman's Purse Holding. She was like, that is actually how women from the south do hold their purses.

[B]

Is Rebecca meant to be from the South?

[A]

No, she's a Northwestern grad.

[B]

In fact, I believe the character, the actress is Canadian.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So, you know, so do you think.

[B]

She went method and started walking around like a velociraptor?

[A]

It's kind of like, you know. Yeah, I bet it was like the way Chalamet did Marty Supreme. We're gonna also have, in the defense.

[B]

Of this reader and this listener. Yeah, that is pretty small potatoes considering what we could be complaining about on the show. And perhaps it's a bit unfair, just, just like a. A little bit it's like a little bit unfair.

[A]

We will talk about Landman at some point, but we have a big. A big menu of stuff. You can also follow us on Instagram thewatchpod underscore. You can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer Dash TV YouTube channel. And you can also watch us on Spotify, where I hope you are listening to us today. We are gonna talk about the stuff we watched over Christmas vacation, quote, unquote. Because when you're two guys who love culture, there's no days off.

[B]

No.

[A]

Every day you go out and you say, inspire me, you know?

[B]

Yeah. And Los Angeles never does. But you were in a more captivating metropolis.

[A]

Yeah, I feel energized. I feel stimulated, you know?

[B]

You saw theater.

[A]

I saw two plays. God damn. And I saw Liberation. And I saw a preview of Tracy Letts Bug, starring Carrie Coon, which was excellent. And I highly recommend anybody who. Who's able to get to the theater in the coming weeks.

[B]

Our favorite couple. Yeah.

[A]

And. Yeah. Well, we were gonna just do kind of like a loose rundown. How are you doing? Do you wanna talk to me a little bit about.

[B]

Yeah, sure, let's talk. I mean, first of all, my oil futures are going great, so thank you for asking about that. My portfolio is looking. Looking pretty tasty.

[A]

I was heavily invested in the nationalization efforts of Venezuela, so this is a tough time for me.

[B]

I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that that's going good. What else?

[A]

What else?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I mean, it's another year for us. Do you feel like the flame is still as bright as ever?

[B]

Well, I think that the flame.

[A]

When did it start? The 12th. Something like that.

[B]

When did our flames start? Yeah, our flames started. I mean, we started in January 12th.

[A]

Right. You're usually the archivist of this couple.

[B]

I don't remember the first day, but we were all over the fourth episode of the third season of Downton Abbey or whatever.

[A]

So we. No, that was early Downton, because Snitch Butler's was super early.

[B]

That's true. Because that was when it was a more focused show that was really about what it was about before they expand, widened the aperture too much and went woke. It was just about, like, how it's hard to get good service. It's a much better show. Yeah, it was early. It was early January.

[A]

Where would you like to start?

[B]

Because I didn't say January 2012.

[A]

2012?

[B]

Yeah. This is year 14. Yeah. God, it's great.

[A]

Do you still enter each year with a lust for like, what's going to be, you know, big and new and fresh and interesting in television?

[B]

Do you.

[A]

Well, I'll tell you what. This year, one of the reasons why I think I'm fired up is because they've given us such a bountiful January, and some of our favorite shows are coming back in January. The pit industry, new shows like a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, returning shows like night manager from 10 years ago, and a ton of other stuff. So Wonder man just gonna be dropped as a binge on January 27, right?

[B]

I think that's right.

[A]

So I thought maybe we could just cap off, you know, just some of the stuff that was happening towards the end of December that we didn't cover in the last 10 days or so.

[B]

That sounds good. Also, I did want to ask you. Yeah. Because I'll be. I'll be honest about it as well. How. Where are you with your pre engagement with any of these January shows? Because I have not. This won't surprise anyone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also, like, we do have. This is not meant to be a brag, but just to restate that the shows generally, the shows that we really love, like industry or like the pit, we like to enjoy week to week. Yes.

[A]

And I also, I. One of the things that I respect is embargoes.

[B]

So you really do respect.

[A]

I try not to break embargoes. In terms of my comments about a show, I will say that I am net positive on the shows from this January that I have checked out.

[B]

Oh. Oh, you are not icy. Oh, you are not embargoing anything.

[A]

Yeah, no, I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to explicitly state one way or another how I feel about.

[B]

Something until that was why you didn't invite me to also profit from the war actions over the weekend. Because you peeked behind the black curtain in Mar a Lago and you saw that they had x dot com. Did you see that on one of the screens they were searching X for Venezuela. Were they? Yeah, I mean, that's what I do. My only.

[A]

And you usually do that during like the third.

[B]

Third quarter of an Eagle search. Yeah, I'm just searching Kevin Petullo to just see who's saying the meanest thing.

[A]

Oh, I thought you meant finding him a new job.

[B]

Oh, no. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[A]

No, I go offensive coordinator Venezuela.

[B]

I go zip recruiter. Yeah.

[A]

I'm very. I'm very pleased with what we have on tap. I'll put it that way.

[B]

Yeah. And so we'll probably second show this week we'll hit the return of the pit.

[A]

The Pit. And then next Monday is industry the.

[B]

Biggest television news that happened of which I am. And I do think I ought to apologize again. I am ignorant of. This really is Stranger Things ended. Yeah. Now just to fully contextualize it for our new listeners, starting this year with a new podcast. Stranger Things is a constant presence in my life now because my older daughter is completely obsessed. I don't think it's a violation of any embargo to say that the lock screen on her device is completely Joe Keery coded.

[A]

Coded.

[B]

Or is it coded if it's just Joe?

[A]

Kerry? I think it's just Joe Keery. The other way would be, like drawings of him. Things that he maybe likes, you know, that's true.

[B]

Okay. Right. No, it's just him.

[A]

Some Joe scene singles.

[B]

You know, again, this is Joe single. First of all, I don't know if Joe is single, but I would also be like band.

[A]

Yeah. Singles by that band.

[B]

I'm saying that his big single, the End of Beginning is her favorite song ever recorded and she has no interest in any other songs by him. By him.

[A]

Okay. I think that might be a challenge for his music career. And he's talked about that people only.

[B]

Want the one song. Yeah, it's a good song.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I was like, this is. I was like, you know, you could go to the play song radio option on Spotify and maybe I was like, praying that, like, elevate me later by Pavement would come up or something.

[A]

Well, he does play Malchimus in the Pavement stock.

[B]

I've mentioned that to her. It's received zero traction so far, I gotta tell you.

[A]

It's really.

[B]

And she won't even do that because she just likes this one song.

[A]

I do find it fascinating if we're so lucky as to be recording this podcast, say, in 2035.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, how people's relationships to actors, bands, shows, all that stuff changes as our habits become so algorithmic. Not to say that your daughter is not having an organic relationship with art and life.

[B]

Tbd.

[A]

Tbd. But the idea of being, like, super into just one song by a person.

[B]

And no interest in digging deeper, being.

[A]

Like, this person is Steve from Stranger Things. Like, he does not have, like, a life outside of it, but she's interested in that.

[B]

She's very interested in Charlie Heaton and Talia Dyer's relationship continuing. And in fact, she informed me the other night that many of the international dubbers of those characters have also fallen in love.

[A]

Oh, that's Nice. I saw that. I think they're body doubles and their.

[B]

Body doubles date as well. That's cool. Yeah. So this is. So I'm now done talking about my knowledge of stranger things. How are you feeling about it?

[A]

I thought that as an event it was fun.

[B]

Because you went to the theater at midnight? No, because you didn't see it in the theater. You saw it on tv.

[A]

I didn't, but I. I will say that it was like a fun experience over the holidays, the way that they parceled these out. Yeah, I, I think I talked a little bit about watching it with like a. My wife's best friends. Like, yeah, the youth daughters for the Thanksgiving ones, you know, we knocked out like the Christmas ones over the course of like a couple of nights in New York, like we would just throw it on. I found the finale to be like, nice, you know. Like, I think this show for me probably peaked with its, its first and, and second to some extent seasons and that the way that they kind of made it all about the mechanics of like the upside down. I mean, it's hard to talk about because I don't know if you care or understand, but like it basically became very video game in its logic and in its execution. So rather than having like the character moments were like, this guy is going to have this character moment, but it's only going to be as a quick aside, like almost a cut scene from we have to do this, to do this, to do this. It's like watching the Avengers, like an end of an Avengers movie. So I thought it was pretty like about itself by the end of it. But you know, I also, I feel warmly towards it and I wonder if in a different world without strikes and Covid and stuff like that, if it would have worked out differently for that show. Because I think part of like the abstraction of it is just how long it has been in gestation. Like and being a 10 year experience.

[B]

Purely like Pitchfork rating scale, like, how do you feel about the finale?

[A]

Because the finale I would say and.

[B]

You can spoil whatever you want.

[A]

I'll say this, I'll say the finale I would give like a five. The coda I would probably give like a six or a seven.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I thought like that once they kind of wrapped up the action, the sort of character beats were nice.

[B]

The sense that I get again based on very little, just ambient understanding of it is that it is. In some ways it reminds me of Lost in the sense of you strike gold with all the things that make TV good in the sense of like, you know, finding actors right before everyone falls in love with them. Creating characters in a world that people want to spend time with and a world that seems to have potentially unlimited depth to keep scratching the surface and finding more and more wrinkles to. And people get excited about the gamification of the story in that way. But inevitably with a show like that, I don't, I mean I haven't read interviews, but I can't imagine if they were given some of Carol from Pluribus as sodium pentothal, the Duffer Brothers would be like. We always imagined an endgame with Vecna.

[A]

And I think also the bigger the show got, bigger the show had to expand to reach what they assumed, what people wanted. So that by this end of the season it just becomes a magical action movie where all these characters have now become warriors somehow, even though they are like teenagers.

[B]

Like Blowno too, right? I heard she.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but like Natalia Dyer's character is like basically Ripley and Alien in this show now.

[B]

That's pretty sick. Yeah, yeah. I think that it is a different. As the one time host of America's leading podcast about television shows ending, I would say that there ought to be a different category for shows that have to wrangle the multi headed hydra of their own success to end. There is no naturally satisfying ending to a show that didn't have. I mean, what's the name of the Joe single? They didn't have the end at the beginning. So yeah, kudos to anybody who tries and even manages to come out with a gentleman's five.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There.

[A]

I mean I have like read a little bit about how like the origins of this show and how they had thought about it maybe as an anthology and maybe as like this sort of like homage to like very like, like a Stephen King contained universe rather than something that was going to be a dimension sprawling magical teenager Potter meets Avengers, kind of Lord of the Rings level show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it just wound up being that big. And I, I guess that that's what they felt like they needed to expand it into. And it wasn't as interesting to me but for some reason in the specific time it was released this year. Yeah, I didn't really feel distracted by a ton of other stuff and the weather being the weather, it was like kind of fun to like at midnight throw it on and just kind of like zone out.

[B]

I think the marketing and the way Netflix turned it into something even bigger and then, and then it made like $25 million eventized. It was really, really smart to your point about what they originally intended. It is always, for me at least, worth remembering that the initial pitch for this show was a series called Montauk, which I believe was about Lizzie Grubman's parking shenanigans at the Surfside Inn 20 years ago. And to think that from that they ended up with what they ended up with. But it's interesting. It was an homage to the spirit of the things that people in our generation grew up loving. That became a.

[A]

It became an homage to, like, the things that kids the age of the kids in the show would have also loved that because it was like an homage to Marvel and Potter and LTR, which are like more 21st century.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like tokens or totems, rather. Do you think, like, does your daughter have any connection to it being like an 80s vibe show?

[B]

Um, broadly, yes. I think she gets the.

[A]

That that's when it's set.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And that's why they don't have phones and stuff, you know?

[B]

Yes. Although she does feel frustrated in a way that maybe we would feel when characters couldn't call each other in black and white movies as easily. I don't know. She's just like, why doesn't she just search that up? You know, Pennsylvania 324. Like, that's. Now he's not here.

[A]

Click.

[B]

Yes, operator. There is definitely some of that. It's also funny where today on the way to school, she was explaining Joseph Quinn's character. Cause that's where. I think she's on season four now. Eddie. Yeah. And she's like, people think that he's a bad guy. Cause he plays Dungeons and Dragons and listens to heavy metal. I'm like, right, that was a thing. She's like, I know. But I'm like, do you. And she just turns up, end of beginning again. And I'm like, do you know where Chicago is? And that's a whole other story. But do you know about lounge acts? The punk club where. I welcome this? Because it is.

[A]

Have you been watching along as she watches, or is she just watching it on iPad?

[B]

She's just grinding tape. Just trying to catch up and not avoiding spoilers and not really caring.

[A]

Yeah. That's another thing that I think people have largely given up on. They don't care about embargoes.

[B]

They don't respect embargoes. Like you at Pennsylvania 1500. That's right. That's our other watch inbox.

[A]

I did want to tell you one more thing about Stranger Things. So spoilers for the finale. You don't care.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Hawkins is this hotly contested interdimensional property now. Because there's, like a million dollar listing.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Like, there's the Hawkins town.

[B]

Okay. Right.

[A]

Then there is the Upside down, which is sort of like Dark Hawkins, which is you can get to through some portals in different places.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The thing that they introduced in this final chapter or season is the idea that, in fact, there is then, like, a thing called the Abyss, which is where Vecna lives. Vecna is this really bad guy.

[B]

Is that, like, when we found out about Dumbo, that there was, like, another part of Brooklyn with, like, the streets looked a certain way, but the buildings.

[A]

This is why you can never quit.

[B]

Is that. This is why you have. Because I remember we were like, listen.

[A]

To any of the haters, man. You're the best.

[B]

Like, the first time people took us to Galapagos in Williamsburg, I was like, oh, there's a dark Brooklyn. But then we found out about Dumbo. Yeah. Okay, go on.

[A]

So there's Hawkins Upside Down. Then there's the bridge, I think, or the bridge might be between Hawkins and the Upside Down.

[B]

I can't remember, literally, me explaining where I live in LA to people in London.

[A]

And then there is the Abyss, which is where Elle sent Vecna right when she, like, zapped him with her mind.

[B]

Is Elle what you call 11?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And Vecna and the Mind Flayer are in this fucking desert, like, it's like, outside of Tucson.

[B]

What? Are they together?

[A]

Yeah, very much so.

[B]

That's sweet.

[A]

They're really. They are bonded together.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There's a huge, like, destructive moment event where, you know, they blow up the Upside Down. Brett Gellman does that.

[B]

Damn. Brett Gelman blows up the Upside Down. Do you feel like, what if the Duffer Brothers had pitched that 10 years ago to Cindy Holland and Ted Sarandez? Close your eyes. I'm gonna paint you a picture.

[A]

And, you know, so there's this huge destructive thing. There's a ton of damage done. Can I. Can I really spoil it? Elle closes the gate to all of this and sacrifices herself.

[B]

My child already told me this. She's not watched this, but she already told me this.

[A]

Another big explosion happens. You know, cut to 18 months later.

[B]

I love an 18 months later.

[A]

Hawkins. The tax base has exploded. That's not. It's not just that the infrastructure got destroyed. It was like the population came back, and they were just like, it's teeming. It's like Hawkins is. There's a gold rush happening in Hawkins and everybody has come back and there's so much construction and building going on.

[B]

Oh. So I'm giving the wrong cities. This is actually San Francisco, once Daniel Lurie became mayor.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And he's like, there's a new Gap story.

[A]

But it's just the funniest thing. It's like there's no coverage whatsoever of multiple interdimensional explosions happening in Indiana.

[B]

But. No, but. So are they, like, spending their way through it? Is it like, it's. It's.

[A]

No.

[B]

Is it abundance?

[A]

It kind of seems like that. It seems like there's no permitting, there's no zoning. They're just, like, putting everything back where it belongs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I thought that was a very funny, like, note to end on. Although it is kind of nice because, like, these six people or 10 people are like, kind of like everybody's just moved on, you know?

[B]

I'm also interested in the 18 months as, like, kind of a default. Like, that's the appropriate length of the ellipses. It's front of mind because we were rewatching Sleepless in Seattle this weekend. It's on the Criterion's Fresh Start collection. Otherwise, clearly, why would I watch one of the most beloved movies of all time? And for those who haven't rewatched it recently, it opens with Tom Hanks, like, in just paralyzing grief, with good reason. His wife, Carrie Lowell, has just suddenly passed away. That's not a spoiler. That's the movie. And then it's like. Then they're like, what will you do to rebuild your life? It's possible. What would you. And he's like, I think I'm going to uproot myself and my child from the only home he's ever known and live on a boat in Seattle. Because I'm super into mother Love bone and think this town is really about to pop off. But the yada yada for, like, when it's okay for him to start dating again is 18 months.

[A]

Right? 18 months is. I think that that's like a solid time. It's two pregnancy cycles.

[B]

You know, that is a wild. That is the first thing you thought of. You could just bang out some Irish twins and then you're ready to start over.

[A]

A rookie contract, you know.

[B]

Okay, Kaid, what do you feel? How do you feel about this? Just in terms of someone like, you're.

[A]

Living your life, Specifically Tom Hanks mourning his wife or Hawkins Moving on from.

[B]

18 months is a generally reliable benchmark for moving on from something. Something good or bad, like rebuilding A Midwestern town.

[A]

And you didn't expect this to be the first time we threw to you in 2026. Was going to be. To ask you this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like after 18 months, it's kind of like.

[B]

All right, wrap it up.

[A]

What's it supposed to be, like, a month for every year?

[B]

For what?

[A]

For like a breakup?

[B]

Is that. Wait, they have that for like. I think it was supposed to be jet lag. It's a day for every hour.

[A]

Or maybe it's a death. I can't remember. It's something. It's like a month for every year you. Basically, that's the way you're supposed to mourn or whatever.

[B]

Okay, well, that's right on target then, because in Sleepless in Seattle, definitely the things that we're leading this pod with for our first pod back, he says he's talking to and beautiful Rob Reiner performance in that movie. He says, when's the last time you dated?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he says Jimmy Carter was president. And the movie is set in 1991. Right.

[A]

So that would be 20 years. It's about 20 months.

[B]

Like 14 years. 14. He's ready. Yeah. In fact, he's a little behind.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He's a little bit lagging.

[A]

Let's go now to a film that we both saw.

[B]

Chopping at the movies.

[A]

I can tell you're chomping at the bit. Marty Supreme.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How many times did you go to the movies last year or in the last 12 months?

[B]

How about the last 18 months? I was a different guy. How many times? Yeah. Embarrassingly few.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I would say under a dozen.

[A]

I think it's. It's. It's opened you up. Because now, like, I feel like when you go and you like something, you really love it.

[B]

I will say this just to start, like, I. I like our friends at the Big Picture Podcast. I am a great believer in the. In theater, in person, cinematic experience. I was.

[A]

So am I.

[B]

First of all, let's. Oh, are you. Yeah. Sorry. I just. I only listen to that.

[A]

There's not only three people who love in theater.

[B]

I only listen to the big picture when it's pure. When it's just the two of them. I don't like any interlopers on that show. Just like that dynamic. It's like if there's guest hosts on pti. You know what I mean? Yeah. First of all, a little glimpse behind the curtain. We were ships in the night. We passed each other. You were coming out of the movie, and I was coming into the movie.

[A]

I had Gotten back from a very early flight and I wanted to see it, but I could not wait till 8pm here's the thing.

[B]

I had not had a good night of sleep and I was. Here's what I didn't communicate to you in that moment, although I tried to with my searching look that I gave you as you passed the giant fucking poster cutout for Chris Pratt's Mercy. A real movie that has the ad. Wait, I had it open just to like, look at it for a moment.

[A]

I know what this movie's about. It's Rebecca Ferguson is an AI.

[B]

The tagline for this film, which is a real film, the future of criminal justice is artificial intelligence. Way to read the room. If there's two things that are equally beloved in America in 2025, it's the criminal justice system and artificial intelligence. And you give me Chris Pratt. Not smiling. Fucking. That's my 13th time in the theater. Can't wait. Anyway, as we were passing, I was really, really concerned that I would be sleeping through this film. No judgment on the film. I was just not.

[A]

You would have been easily the first person to fall asleep in a Safdie Brothers movie.

[B]

I had that. I was hoping for that. I was like, that might be my saving grace here. That was not the case. I was so exhilarated and transported by seeing this movie in the theater. I loved it. I loved the movie. I loved the experience of seeing in the theater. I think this is a great film.

[A]

It's a great movie. It's a great movie.

[B]

I.

[A]

You know, I think that when you step into the theater, the thing you can hope for is to feel fully immersed in something. And I think we've probably started to confuse world building with more genre fantasy, sci fi kind of things. Like, are you convincingly building a fictional universe for me to explore? But to me, world building is what Jack Fisk does in this movie. And he's the production designer and he's been. He's probably one of the handful of great production designers in the history of Hollywood filmmaking and worked with Terrence malick in the 70s on badlands and Days of Heaven. And David Lynch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

David lynch did Mulholland Drive and then pta.

[B]

He did the World Be Blood.

[A]

Yeah. And when you watch Marty supreme, like the thing that 80 years old is the sort of tactile nature of the New York that they create. And feeling like as Marty is going down fire escapes or running through the backs of stores, that there is an alley and then another store. And like the illusion probably because film is Just magic making anyway, is that like you are actually in this interconnected warren of the Lower east side in the 1950s. And that is like, it's so captivating. And then when you add the seemingly incongruous but like, wonderful score on top of it from Daniel Lepatan, it just takes you away beyond ping pong and, you know, youth and young manhood and, and finding a sense of purpose beyond yourself, which the movie is also about.

[B]

I mean, every time I'm not. I'm not even being like, self deprecating, I often don't feel qualified to talk about movies because I see so few of them these days. But like, every time I see a great movie, my first thought is always, oh my God, it's so hard to make a good movie, let alone a great movie. And every frame counts and every second counts. And you're talking to the specificity of the decisions made in it. And, you know, reading about the film after seeing it, talking about how they like wet down the trash in the streets to like increase every potential moment of realism and so that the actors would be feeling it too. You read about like Tyler and Timothy filming like after their insane night scene and that they were filming that at 4 in the morning and ad libbing how tired they were because they were. You read about Chalamet secretly training to become a ping pong champion for six years, which could be super annoying, honestly. But are you fine?

[A]

Where are you with him?

[B]

I sent you a gif of Shaquille o' Neal saying I owe you an apology. I wasn't familiar with your game and I have taken all caveats away from my embrace.

[A]

Did you ever see the Dylan movie?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. Do you like the Dune movies, though?

[B]

I like the Dune movies I think I've seen. I feel fairly well versed in his filmography.

[A]

You're one of the preeminent experts on his appearance in Homeland.

[B]

That's true. Famously, I met him on the set of Homeland and in no moment was I like, this is the next great movie star. It's an incredible performance and the entire movie hinges on his face and his commitment. And also I was thinking about another recent RE addition to Criterion Collection that I rewatched. Cause it was just there. Again, because I'm clearly desperate for a let's turn the TV on and just watch what's on experience. This is as close as we get. Was I was rewatching Boogie Nights and I was watching it thinking about DiCaprio having worked now with PTA and how great he is. In one battle after another. And how he now says or has said in past interviews that he does regret passing on Boogie Nights and thinking I don't think he would be good for it. Like that's obviously like, you know, hindsight, but that there's a specificity to what Wahlberg is good at, that pta, as a great director, sees and excavates and like shines a bright light on. Interestingly now I'm more like Sidney Pollock would have been a good Jack Horner too. I'm open to that argument that there could have been a different one there. But anyway, you watch Chalamet in this movie and you're like absolutely no other actor, contemporary actor could have given us that specific performance.

[A]

Yeah. I also don't really know on an extra level who else could have sold this movie. I mean the work he has done to get this movie, I think it opened better than the Dylan film did. I think it's appealing, at least from what I've read to 18 to 34 year olds who are not always dependable box office supporters. And he's like a new generation of movie star while also having the chops of somebody who could have been famous in 1972, you know.

[B]

And I felt really exhilarated by the fact that the movie does. You know, it's highly stylized. Obviously it has that safdie je ne sais quoi that keeps people awake in movie theaters. It has the reliance on anachronistic needle drops that I do want to ask you about. But it also has an absolutely genuine, sincere and I think really interesting curiosity and engagement with reality in terms of like historical reality. And I thought the movie was incredibly compelling and moving as a snapshot of Judaism in the 20th century, but also the way capitalism works and has always worked in America versus the world. And it's not like heavy handed about any of that, but it's alive to it in a way that I really liked. I also wanted to ask you so struck, I was so struck by the use of non traditional actors up to. And this is the most me. I feel like this movie has been well covered at this point by everyone. Here's what I can bring to it. I think that I am the only minor media figure to audibly gasp when one of my favorite writers, Pico Iyer, appears as the supercilious chairman of the World Table Tennis Association.

[A]

That's who that was.

[B]

Yes, the. To me, I don't even believe the influential and beloved travel writer wrote two of my most formative books in the 90s video night and Kathmandu and then lady and the Monk. And then since then he lives in Japan. And he's just thoughtful. He writes a lot about Buddhism and spirituality and travel and our global world. And all his books are good, including his most recent one. And I was like, I recognize that guy. He's never acted.

[A]

Did you find out what Safdie's connection to him was?

[B]

No, because you look down the list of this and you're like, george Gervin is running the.

[A]

Tracy McGrady's on the Globetrotters.

[B]

McGrady's on the GlobetroTters.

[A]

Abel Ferreira and Penn Jillette, New York, great in quotes.

[B]

John Katsametides, the chairman of the D' Agostino grocery store Corporation, plays Dion's dad. That can work or it can catastrophically not work. And I thought that the casting of non traditional actors, the Kevin o' Leary thing, I thought it worked to a degree that was totally invigorating and exciting. But even the dude. What's his name? Philippe. What's his name, who walked across the towers. He's the Belgian ping pong commentator.

[A]

Are you serious?

[B]

The use of faces and then not just saying that's who should be in the scene. Whether it's the kid who plays Dion, who I guess they found on YouTube, or Levon Hawk, Maya's brother, who's in the hustling scene, or Tyler, who I didn't know is an actor and maybe isn't, but is incredible. Richard Brody in the New Yorker wrote that he thought that this works well for the Safdies because the Safdies communicate. They tell their story less through traditional performance, more through visuals and reaction and presence, which makes sense.

[A]

You know, it was also awesome in it as Spencer Grinnies, who's in Dope Thief, but is in that one bowling alley scene talking to Tyler about, like, guard your wad, like, don't let anybody see your cashier. And then obviously chases them to the gas station. Like, he's got like that same kind of face, even though he's done some acting. Obviously. He's like a. Of like an up and coming actor. Like, I just think that he's like.

[B]

Safdie is Abel Ferreira. We didn't even mention, you know, what.

[A]

It is is a total commitment to an idea. So it's the same thing with the music when it opens with Forever Young and, you know, like, we won't. We don't have to spoil Marty supreme, folks haven't had a chance to see it, but it also ends on a Very significant needle drop. And if you kind of go halfway.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or if in the middle of the movie, you weirdly start changing, oh, now we're doing 1950s needle drops. It's like, you have to be.

[B]

You have to be fearless.

[A]

You have to be fearless, but you have to be committed to an idea. And the idea is essentially that Marty supreme is a memory piece of this guy remembering in the 80s what life was like in the 50s. That's what Josh talked about with Sean.

[B]

Josh himself remembering the feeling of the past through the emotional.

[A]

No, the character Josh is like. This idea is like kind of. You know, it almost feels. He's making the 1950s feel like the 1980s because it would be older. Marty supreme remembering the 1950s.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it basically gives a rationale to the postmodern new wave vibe of the music in the film. To commit to something that fully and then to not even be like, this is why I did it in. The film itself is so brave and fearless. And it's the same thing with, like, Kevin o' Leary could have that movie up.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So many people could have a major part. I mean, there is something happens in. In this thing on the Bradley Cooper movie with Walnette that is like, the wrong version of this. And it completely takes you out of the movie, if you're even in it in the first place. The fact that they're able to pull off all these faces, you're essentially. The entire movie is like the bar scene in Goodfellas where they're just like. And then there was, you know, this guy and then this guy, and it's like, that's the whole movie is faces like that and people like that. It's so invigorating to see because you realize that especially when we're watching tv, seeing a lot of the same faces, seen a lot of the same people.

[B]

And a lot of interpretations of an idea that a character is on the page and there.

[A]

And when it comes to, like, extra work or people filling out a scene or people in the background or people who are briefly on camera, it's like there just doesn't seem like there's a ton of thought given to it. Probably because they have to move so quickly.

[B]

But you're talking about the geologist on Landman. Not yet, but I agree with that. I will. Maybe this is a sign of my trepidation and lack of fearlessness. The last needle drop was the only time that I was like. Only because that song is so overly dropped.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The New Order one Shout out to the upcoming Season of industry works for me, and the Peter Gabriel one worked for me. The last one is when you.

[A]

You can say it. I mean, we can.

[B]

Cheers. When you drop a song that is not just known in its moment as a famous huge song, but has been known by every subsequent generation, almost like by clockwork in the decade, from a needle drop, I think that it removes you from the immediacy of the moment which Chalamet is delivering in terms of his performance. That was the one time that I was a little out of it, but. But there was a feeling that I had after the open, the opening sequence where he's in London and everything that happens in London, and Gwyneth Paltrow and their. Their. Their connection where I was like, I don't remember the last time I had this feeling in the movie theater where I was. It's actually more like a sports thing. And maybe it's fitting that it's a sports movie where I was like, please don't blow this lead. I was so in love with my. And I don't think I was out of it. I was fully invested. But I was so in love with the experience I was having. And I was so worried eventually that faded, but, like, of a wrong note that would.

[A]

Do you feel like that's.

[B]

I was like, you're up 21 nothing. Don't let the cowboys die.

[A]

Do you feel like you're more now aware of how you're feeling about a movie while you're watching a movie or a TV show? Like, are you more like. Do you think it's because, like, you maybe you're like, you have less time. So it's like my relationship to culture is now a little bit more transactional. And when you do feel like I'm levitating, don't bring me down now.

[B]

I think so. But then there were a couple moments when the bathtub crashed to the ceiling. I think then I lost all reservations about it because I was just laughing and euphoric and like, this is. Here we go. Yeah. I mean, it's of no value. Based on my almost complete ignorance of the larger cinematic slate still of 2025, for me to say this is my favorite movie of the year. But I. I would rate it higher than One battle after another in my own personal top two list, which might expand over the next few weeks as we build up to the Oscars.

[A]

Do you think you're going to do a deep dive into 2025 movies? Like, when you're watching and you're like, I'm just like watching Boogie Nights or whatever.

[B]

I'm going to watch Sinners in Eddington. And I still want to take a. Take a Return to Zombieland with you. I mean, I saw the. I saw the trailer for Bone Temple. Bone Temple?

[A]

Yeah. It's coming soon.

[B]

You excited about it? Very.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's is Ralph Fiennes. He's playing the rabbi of the Bone Temple. Not exactly, but he is in 28 years later as this character.

[A]

He is.

[B]

And then they're like, let's spend more time in the temple. Yes. Okay. And then there's another one.

[A]

There will be hopefully a third one. I don't want to spoil anything about 28 years later.

[B]

I don't want you to.

[A]

I think you should go into it as blind as possible.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How will I feel about the needle drops?

[A]

Young Fathers did the soundtrack. It's an incredible score. I wanted to briefly tell you about one other thing that I watched that I know you probably are only in and out on. We talked about this show briefly. For the first episode, it's Heated Rivalry, which is still the number one show on the Max streaming app.

[B]

Casey stays winning.

[A]

And we didn't do a best episode of 2025 episode of this podcast, which we have done the last couple of weeks.

[B]

Yes. We were unable to do to schedule.

[A]

We did Shogun one year. We did the Bear one year. And I think we were a little bit like, you know, I feel like we left it all on the field with Adolescence, but we were talking about, like, maybe we should try and do the third episode of Adolescence or maybe the second to last episode of Task. Like there was a couple of candidates. Yeah.

[B]

And I think I would have voted for ultimately the third episode of Adolescence, but I think wrangling all the overseas talent would have been challenging.

[A]

And now they were just in town for critics choice. I think they're gonna be in LA for a while to get some awards.

[B]

Do you think they want to talk to me about jet lag and like that? Just like how best to be manage that flight and what to order. Don't get the soup. But then otherwise, just as this is just, you know, inside baseball. But like, we were also like, what more do we have to say about Andor or the Pit since we've already done interviews with creative people.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, it's probably recency bias, but I would have made an argument for the fifth episode of Heated Rivalry.

[B]

God, it's great. Good for you.

[A]

I've watched the rest of this over the course of sort of the Christmas break. It is an amazing achievement of a show. Just the level of skill from Jacob Tierney, who created it based on these novels by Rachel Reed and then wrote and directed the episodes. He's a fucking big time talent, man. I'm so blown away. And I asked you to watch a brief moment at the end of the fifth episode where it kind of is the culmination of one side subplot of the show. This established hockey stars, public coming out quite public. And how that affects the two main actors. The main characters, Ilya, who at this.

[B]

Point in their journey are Closeted. Closeted.

[A]

And Connor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And spoilers for this episode, if you haven't seen it, I would just highly recommend you watch Heated Rivalry. But the end of this episode, which is actually excellent, it also features Ilya has to go back to Russia for a funeral and. And Connor's in the hospital after an injury and like there's this, like. It's just a very, very, very well done episode of television.

[B]

This is five out of eight?

[A]

Six.

[B]

Six. Oh, so this is the. This is the penultimate.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then the last five minutes of this is this guy coming out after. After winning what would be the Stanley cup and these two younger hockey. Hockey players watching it at their separate homes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

While I'll Believe in Anything by Wolf.

[B]

Parade plays, I just got chills.

[A]

And the reason why I think I've, like, I've checked this out so many times is because of the filmmaking in it. You know, they're shooting it on anamorphic lenses. The way that they are communicating the emotional and psychological reality of the characters with camera movement and music and cutting it is so high level for a show that could, in another person's hands, could have just been very straightforward soap opera. Hot sex TV show.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And he, he makes it like cinematic. It is so good. I. I would just. If, if you. If you have heard about this show and you haven't watched it, please check it out and see if you, if you can get to episode five. I mean, I think if you're watching it, you'll just. You'll just watch it. It's just really compelling.

[B]

Anyway, I was glad you told me to watch it, but for two reasons. The first reason is it's good to be validated, in my opinion, that those Wolf Parade records are incredibly important to the culture because that. Yeah, that hits. That was the pure.

[A]

I would have Jacob Tierney on just to talk about Wolf Parade.

[B]

I would love to talk about Wolf Parade at length.

[A]

I was more of a Shine a Light guy than a. I'll believe in anything guy. But for sure.

[B]

But that's the sign of great artistry. You just sort of can unearth these nuggets of or. Yeah. I think that what I appreciated the most is the way that historically. But like this century of television and the role the penultimate episode often plays, especially with the type of shows that we talk about and Lionize, there has often been a death in the second to last episode.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And the death is both shocking in terms of your audience investment in the character who dies and also the timing of it. We were, I think, no longer, but we were conditioned to expect fireworks in finales. And so that was the great innovation of George Pellicanos and the rest of the Wire staff. But you do it in that episode so that you can actually, you can remind the audience that good shows aren't about the. The rock getting thrown in the pond. It's about the ripples and how the ripples affect on people. And so to watch an episode cold of characters, I did not.

[A]

Yeah, you don't know who Scott is.

[B]

You don't know what's going on on the main stage thing. But I immediately, I mean, I figured it out pretty quickly, actually.

[A]

Before you keep going, I just realized that I transposed the actor who plays Ilya's first name, Connor. It's Connor's story. And the character who I was referring to is Shane Hollander. So Connor story plays Ilya and then Hudson Williams plays Shane. So I just fucked that up.

[B]

You have to apologize to me. I don't watch the show. I would have thought you get a job.

[A]

I'm just trying to do the work. I'm sorry.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, just to say that the power of the scene was coming into a cold and realizing the significance of the. In this parlance of prestige tv, it's the opposite of a murder, but how it affects these characters and where they are in their lives and the significance of it. And again, like there are these little subtle touches that I also really appreciated that with Connor or Shane, who's the dark haired.

[A]

That's Shane Hollander. Is the character she's played by his.

[B]

Shane Hollander watching this on television with his parents. He's watching Major League hockey television, I believe.

[A]

I don't have that.

[B]

The New York Admirals have won the Stampley cup or whatever it is. Won the cup, but it's falling on his parents who are like, oh, we're watching something significant. Something is happening and it's hitting him completely different.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. It's beautifully framed.

[A]

Yeah, really really excellent tv. So check it out if you haven't already.

[B]

What? I must have Major league hockey television. I fucking just found out I have Crunchyroll still. I have.

[A]

Of course you do.

[B]

I have kids. But we don't watch it.

[A]

You guys moved on from anime?

[B]

Yeah. Anime is not as popular in the house now that they've discovered YouTube.

[A]

Do you want to talk about.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

You want to talk about Landman?

[B]

Here's the thing. Do I want to talk about it? Like when you like, what if you had done. What if you were that dude, Morgan Spurlock, rest in peace. And you like supersized me for a year and then you came in to make the movie about it.

[A]

That is sort of what's happening.

[B]

And someone was like, so what do you want to talk about today?

[A]

Landman's hit a little bit of a slump. Let's just, let's call it what it is.

[B]

Sure. Let's be honest with you.

[A]

And I note this with interest on today, January 5th, because it was just announced that the next season of Mayor Kingstown will be the last season of that show.

[B]

Do you think this is the first domino to fall in the Sheridan verse?

[A]

I thought it was interesting. I'm sure I'm wrong. Taylor Sheridan is no longer the showrunner of Mayor of Kingstown. You know, I think that the fourth season was quite liked, critically acclaimed. Even with that on the poster of Edie. Edie Falco is. Is sort of the co star of the show in the season. I kind of gave up Mayor of Kingstown, like late season two. I don't even know if I watch any of season three. And I, you know, Taylor Sheridan's moving his. His productions, his TV production work to Peacock Universal. NBC Universal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I do wonder whether or not it is a signal that the third season of Lioness will be the last season or that, you know, some of his work is going to start winding down. I say that in relationship to Landman because the middle of this second season has felt a lot like late period Yellowstone to me. Where you're like, we have a lot of random kind of action.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

We're starting subplots and then sort of like drifting away from them.

[B]

We're not. We can't make up our mind about how characters behave and how they feel about each other.

[A]

It has like an almost compressed feeling. Remember that critique I used to like get really upset when Succession would have like an emotional breakthrough with two characters and then the next episode it would just completely reset back to the original model for their relationship that happens all the time on this show.

[B]

I mean, every Andy Garcia, Billy Bob Thornton scene is the same scene.

[A]

Yeah. And almost, I mean, like almost every scene between Billy Bob Thornton and Sam Elliott, which are really well done in terms of like, those guys are really good actors, but they. And I think we'll probably get somewhere with this stuff, but it just really feels like he's writing six different shows that then get cut together into episodes.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the structure of the show is built out of paper mache and it's a bummer. And I think before we get into the specifics of it and the things that I really do want to talk about in a public forum, like Cialis, like. Yes. And who's really to blame here in a lot of these, like marital tiffs. The point you make is a really interesting one because Taylor Sheridan remains. And one of the reasons why I also like covering him as long as I don't have to watch all the shows, is because he is such a unique figure in the television landscape because he produces content at a volume of all the great high quantity television producers. Your Bochkos, Bochco, your Dick Wolf, your Shonda Rhimes. Yeah, but the David Kelly one, I would X out only because I think he's more in common with him. The other few they make, not only are they good investments for whoever, you know, nurtured them and had them on their rookie contract, so to speak, they are good for the Pujols contract as well, because those shows can run themselves at a certain point. Grey's Anatomy is still thriving. How many years ago Dachonda decamped to Netflix, which doesn't mean, I mean, she still is executive producer of that show. But these show members can continue because they are a template that works, that the creator established. The thing that's so unique about Taylor Sheridan is that Landman or any of the shows that he makes should be able to run regardless of who's at the helm. If you gave me the logline for Landman or you, God forbid, read the Texas Monthly article that somehow inspired it or came across his desk briefly, the.

[A]

Christian Wallace article or the podcast Boomtown.

[B]

You could be like, well, obviously this is a television show. If the show had just had the patience, the very non Taylor Sheridan y patience to just be about Cooper's journey over multiple seasons, from worm on Boss's team to someone who wildcats his wife to John Hamm.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

That's a fucking show.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But the shows only convey what Taylor Sheridan's attention span holds for the microsecond that he spends working on each script, so they are not actually repeatable. And I want to be clear when I say that when he gets interested in something, it can often.

[A]

Well, that's why his shows start so well.

[B]

But it also can be so shocking and weird and surprising that suddenly it can come alive. Like it has intermittently over the previous episodes of the season that, you know, that even I was like, oh, okay, well, there's something there that's interesting. And then he loses interest and then he reboots it or whatever. So I think that's interesting to note that, like, Landman should be a franchise that could run for many, many years, which makes it a very valuable investment for Paramount despite its high price tag. Once he walks, I don't see what the show is.

[A]

Well, you can almost make an argument that, like, given all the footage that we have, you could cut together a more traditional but actually, like, probably pretty entertaining version of this show. Because part of the thing that's so disorienting is the juxtaposition of, like, Billy Bob Thornton's raging erection in a morning, you know, with his wife in a hotel room where he terrifies a hotel maid.

[B]

Don't. Save it. I'm sorry, Kyle, we're bringing you in on this. Why? I want to tell Kya about this scene.

[A]

You said hotel maid, where.

[B]

This is. This is where you bring me in? Yes. I do think that, you know, this is in the spirit of something I issued a few weeks ago, which was the Watch Landman with a woman challenge. So the opening of this episode, Kaya, begins with Billy Bob Thornton is sleeping in a hotel room. He and his wife have taken a room for a romantic getaway.

[A]

Petite dejeuner.

[B]

Yeah. He wakes up quite upset and startled because there is another person in their room. This is a room service server who is decloshing or whatever multiple plates of breakfast food, including, like, omelets with truffles and all sorts of things. He reasonably cries out an alarm that someone is in the room with him. She then cries out in secondary, or perhaps primary, in this case, alarm. Because what we subsequently learn is that he has taken multiple doses of Cialis and is at attention. At attention. To be clear, the camera shows us this.

[A]

Which part do you want my thoughts on? Specifically here?

[B]

The maid then screams, don't rape me.

[A]

You started this, so you have to get yourself out of it.

[B]

And then Angela, the wife, who has let the woman into the room while her husband sleeps, starts screaming at her husband for waking up and not covering himself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he has thus not only ruined their breakfast, but their entire marriage. Marriage. Yeah. Who you got? Who's to blame here for this whole thing?

[A]

Probably Taylor Sheridan.

[B]

Right. She answered correctly. I just feel like so many of the bits on the show, not Billy Bob's bits, begin from a place of such deep, deep impossibility.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like, to get to the funny part about that scene, which honestly we never got to, requires an entire suspension of disbelief about how room service is a.

[A]

Different kind of show. It's also just like a crazy screwball comedy about a rich oil executive and his wife erections. No, but it's just like. That's like a. It's just. It's just like what happens is he just throws all this stuff at the wall. Most people would be like, this works, this works, this works, this doesn't. Especially not together. And since he has kind of carte blanche, he's like, it all works. It also might be why people like the show is that they never know what's going to happen from scene to scene.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

I think what has sort of emerged over this season specifically is the first season had the tension of Jon Hamm versus Billy Bob Thornton, but also working together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Plus the cartel stuff. Plus a lot of work on what the oil industry, how that works in the Permian Basin and like, how, like, drilling and how it gets staffed and the dangers that these guys face. I thought that was going to continue with some of the stuff that they've introduced this season with the accident that happens. That was a good car accident that happens at the drilling site with the natural. The toxic chemical leak that they.

[B]

None of these things have led to anything.

[A]

No, I mean, broadly. Like, it seems like many people working for this oil company are thinking about their own mortality and thinking about, like, what they should be doing with their lives. You add in the Sam Elliott thing of being at the end of his life and being like, I don't think any of what I did was worth it. There are themes that come out of it that kind of makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. And there's a moment like the, like, Boss's 20 Year Barbecue where what's his name shows up with the watch with the Rolex.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, what's that guy's name? Like, anytime that character leaves Dale, Dale leaves the compound. I'm like, oh, I enjoy his character and his. And his performance. Yes. These are real people working jobs and dealing with things and then it just throws it all away again.

[A]

Right. And so, yeah, I just think that they have. I. I think one of the things that's really jumped out at me is like, Andy Garcia really is only ever in his office.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's the second or third person.

[B]

He went to the track.

[A]

I just.

[B]

What's.

[A]

What's going on there, though? Like, we. We've now done like five hours of him being like, I'll back your oil company. And Billy Bob's like, you shouldn't do this.

[B]

You're evil. But also, I need you. But also, we see eye to eye.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I only want to talk about one scene specifically. And again, I think this is worth it for anyone who doesn't watch the show because there are moments, such as the breakfast scene, where I'm like, this is actually awful. Everything about this is bad. And this is bad for the world and bad for me personally that I'm watching this. And then there are moments not to. You know, I'll couch it. I'll be nice. Then there are moments on the show that make me feel like. And this is a small digression here, but are you familiar with this might be my all time favorite. I don't know if it's TikTok originally, but it's an Instagram thing which is a clip of a guy saying, like, when I give my dog a CBD gummy, so he's not scared of fireworks. And then it plays Enigma and the dog flies up out of the bed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I laugh every time. There is a moment in this last episode that made me feel like the dog on gummies being lifted out of my dog bed and floating through the cosmos.

[A]

And that was.

[B]

And that was the moment when, in response to his elderly father being discovered lying in a hot tub.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

Otherwise fine. That his response to help his aging and clearly depressed father is to pull off of the road at a strip club that he's never entered before, but his wife has. Yes. And walk over to the stripper counting her money. The only one. I'm so sorry. License plate says Hot Lips and hold. Hire her to be his father's physical therapist. Yeah. She quite rightly says, I am in no way qualified to do this.

[A]

And he's just like, show her some of your stretches. Show him some of your stretches.

[B]

Here's a wad of money. And also, if you want to give him a hand job, that's fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's like, I understand the parameters of the assignment and I accept even saying it out loud. I'm starting to worry that I've hallucinated this, but this does happen. And over the course of the episode, then she shows up at the house. She has completely inorganic banter with the other men in the house. Like, poor, calm Fury, who.

[A]

I just hope.

[B]

I just hope that, like, he got his retirement straight. Like, his role on this show is so insane. Because every time you're like, oh, I guess he's gonna be more important because they have a giant legal issue standing in the house. Tommy. I'm gonna zoom into this one. And they cut to him going, I think it's a bad idea, Tommy. And then he closes the laptop. Yeah. So Godspeed. So he has a little interaction where he once again has to see a blonde woman in tight pants and go, oh, I don't know if I approve of this one. She then says to Sam Elliot, I'm going to do Aqua therapy with you, man I've just met. I Googled it and watched a YouTube video. Let's both get in our underwear.

[A]

Aqua size is pretty straightforward.

[B]

And I like, move around, cradle you. Yeah. In the pool for. And I'm going to quote the show here, ours. That doesn't even seem.

[A]

They're pruning.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. I mean, maybe when, you know, he's a. He's a handsome, handsome man, but he has some wrinkles, so maybe you can't tell.

[A]

There's also a really great Sam Elliott movie called the Lifeguard.

[B]

Yes. When he's a younger man.

[A]

Yeah. Which. So you think it's a full circle. Yeah. Would you say that this was a better use of cradling a person in the water than task?

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Well, different. Different setup.

[B]

I guess it's different. I guess it's different. One was sexually charged in inappropriate ways and one wasn't. Because it would have also been inappropriate. Yeah. So, no. I don't know if I have an answer to that last thing that I just want to get your read on. There's a scene, you know, Demi Moore's role this season has been expanded. Primarily, what she's been given opportunities to do is lose it solo. Like, cry, cry, scream, hit things, pour out bottles of Pappy Van Winkle, et cetera. And then take absolutely indefensible business swings.

[A]

You know, but, you know, she's in a vulnerable spot. You know, the guy who points out that she has salad dressing on her mouth, which I was.

[B]

This is what I want to talk about. This is the scene.

[A]

Yeah. So there's a scene where Demi Moore is, like, about to go to a meeting, but she is eating a salad At a grill somewhere. You know, she's at the bar. Yeah.

[B]

She's solo dining, which you and I respect.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

For what it's worth, good job by the, you know, on set makeup person, because I did freeze frame it and I was like, did they just. They forgot to do a touch up on her face? Because something is on her face. Maybe it's.

[A]

That would be awesome if, like, in the background of the scene, it was just you taking a picture of your food. Yeah.

[B]

I don't even post it, but just want to know.

[A]

Lovely Cobb salad at Cattleman Ranch.

[B]

Ranch. Enjoying my trip to Fort Worth. I also would say in the spirit of this podcast, I'm saying that I don't think Cammie is covering herself in glory as the leader of emtechs thus far. That said, I would like some of her energy in the offensive play calling of the Philadelphia Eagles.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I think we do need a little bit of, like, a little less defensive turtling. You know what I mean? Like, let's go for it. If we think oil's there, let's at least as the clock's winding down, go for it. Okay. So she's sitting there, she's eating her salad. A man who.

[A]

Is.

[B]

Has the same haircut as the geologist in that it's like rat tail with, like, a lot of. A lot of extra dressing on top, but is 20 years older and heavier than the geologist. Than the geologist sits next to her, flirts a little bit, makes small talk, and then presumes to clean.

[A]

It is an aggressive move. He could just be like, you have a little bit of salad dressing.

[B]

Like, he went for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she, like, rightly recoils, acts as if he had just woken up in his own hotel room with morning wood. Like, it's the most worst thing you could ever do. That's not the part I want to talk to you about. What I want to really pick your brain on is then later, after Cammy's, just like, let's spend 400 doll million on a wish.

[A]

Yeah. Because the geologist is like, I got this.

[B]

That guy. That. By the way, when that guy appeared.

[A]

On he's fucking Luke in the trench run, he's just like, I don't need the guidance system. I can just find the gas.

[B]

Two weeks ago, when that guy showed up on the plane drinking watermelon juice and tequila, he was not listed in the credits as geologist.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

They've decided this in the last episode and a half. Also, I shared this, my research with you. I did Google oil company geologist and let me tell you, they look more like Chopped Tim Waltz.

[A]

Well, they look like Comb Fiore at best.

[B]

Yeah. They do not look like Comb Fiore.

[A]

Would be the Timothee Chalamet of geologists.

[B]

They do not look like if Desmond from Lost was in Imagine Dragons. Yes. Okay, so that's a flight of fancy. But as you said, would you say dress for the job you want? I respected that. In the scene after, Cammie's been like, I trust this guy with my life and all of my fortune. She's like, tommy, you don't know what it's been like. At lunch today, I was eating a salad, and I am quoting here, a very handsome man tried to wipe Green Goddess from my mouth. Yeah. What point did anyone on set be like, we gotta recast? No offense to this working Texas actor, but at what point were they like, we may have to recast that part or adjust the dialogue.

[A]

I don't think that that guy is going to show up again. I think it was more of a symbol of Cammie now. Cammie not waiting 18 months. You know, Cammie's. We're six weeks after Monty's dead.

[B]

This is a great point. I'm not saying she should have rushed into it, but I'm trying to set a benchmark here. This woman was married to Jon Hamm. That is what anyone in the future is competing against.

[A]

I played the guy who played the guitar.

[B]

This is like the show.

[A]

I love the.

[B]

This is how this show works.

[A]

She's gonna clip this.

[B]

We can.

[A]

And this guy is gonna be like, I'm fucking.

[B]

I finally got a job on a major television show. Here's what I know about. Fourteen years in of podcasting for this show. We can glaze the finest actors in Hollywood forever. Crickets. Crickets. I make one passing comment about how crazy it is that Suits is popular now, and Patrick J. Adams, the star of Suits, records a fucking reel. Being like, they're mentioning my show. Oh, they've ripped my heart out.

[A]

I like Suits.

[B]

And that's how you win. That's how you win. I don't know how to do this. I am still bad at this.

[A]

I think that you have had the full Taylor Sharon experience in just a few months of Landman. You've experienced the high highs, the confusing middle and the lowest of lows we'll see over the next two episodes if he can pull it back together.

[B]

Do you think?

[A]

I just don't even know what the next two episodes. You could just tell me the next two episodes were gonna be exactly like the last three episodes.

[B]

There's no story. Yeah. There's no villain. There's no stakes. My hope, if I could just prescribe. I think the next two episodes should be about the fallout in the marriage of the woman at the nursing home after she has been, you know, working this beautiful job, making the best life she can for her and her husband, who I believe works at a high school. He was wearing some sort of athletic garb and how the first time he's shown interest in her was after the Angela makeover. I'm just worried. I'm curious about the next day, you know?

[A]

You think that's what Landman should be about?

[B]

I think it should be entirely like a kitchen sink drama about those two.

[A]

All right.

[B]

That's what I think.

[A]

I think we did a good job today. We surveyed a lot of stuff. We're gonna be back on Thursday with the first episode of the second season of the Pit to talk about.

[B]

I can't believe you missed the opportunity to be like. You now have the full Taylor Sheridan experience. Just like America woke up to the full Taylor Sheridan experience on Saturday.

[A]

Turns out Lioness is a documentary.

[B]

This is all we're saying.

[A]

Thanks to Kai. Thanks to Kai. We'll be back on Thursday with the Pit. Everybody.

[B]

Take care, everybody. Just watch it. When you're eating salads, be careful ordering room service. Be careful, Jeff.

[A]

Be safe.

[B]

Be safe out there.