‘Widow’s Bay’ Is One of Apple’s Boldest Swings Yet. Plus, ‘Top Chef’ Restaurant Wars.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Watch (The Ringer)

Episode Title: ‘Widow’s Bay’ Is One of Apple’s Boldest Swings Yet. Plus, ‘Top Chef’ Restaurant Wars.
Date: April 30, 2026
Hosts: Andy Greenwald & Chris Ryan

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Episode Overview

Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan dissect Apple TV's new genre-bending series Widow’s Bay, describing it as one of Apple's boldest and most exciting projects to date. The conversation moves through pop culture news, a deep dive into the mechanics of Widow’s Bay, industry analysis on Apple’s streaming strategy, and finally, an enthusiastic breakdown of the Top Chef Restaurant Wars episode. The hosts' chemistry, humor, and genre insight create an episode that both celebrates and questions the current pop culture landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter: Podcast Appearances, Rock Debates, and REM Nostalgia

Timestamps: 01:37 – 09:05

• The hosts open with reflections on Chris’s recent appearance on The Bill Simmons Podcast, poking fun at the “sports podcast guest experience” and how it’s analogous to TV talk ([03:29]).
• REM vs. The Replacements—the ongoing debate about which band was “bigger” or more meaningful. Andy shares his deep REM fandom roots, reminiscing about a childhood trip to Athens, Georgia, purely due to REM worship ([05:32]):
  • “REM is my gateway. REM is my everything.” – Andy ([05:32])
  • “The reason we love [The Replacements] is because they were so self-defeating and such a giant mess.” – Andy ([08:09])
• Quick sidebar into the impact of reunion shows and their authenticity, referencing My Bloody Valentine, Mission of Burma, and nostalgia vs. genuine experience ([09:10]).

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2. Pop Culture News: White Lotus Shakeup & Industry Gossip

Timestamps: 10:41 – 15:34

• Heads up on White Lotus: Laura Dern replacing Helena Bonham Carter and speculation about whether Dern’s “voice only” character from Season 2 could now appear in person ([11:11]).
  • “Laura Dern, Mike White reunited. Question is… do you think Mike White got in his bag and was like, ‘she’s coming to France’?” – Chris ([11:11])
• Observations on the show's mainstream status and how it’s become tabloid fodder, as well as playful jabs at tabloids and set photo culture ([12:51]).

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3. Music Video Recommendation: Young Lean and the Power of Choreography

Timestamps: 15:37 – 17:57

• Brief celebration of Young Lean’s visually stunning new video and the magic of choreography (“the best special effect in the world” – Andy, [16:57]).
• Noting the enduring power of music videos as an art form amid today’s content saturation:
  • “Every couple of years, maybe every year, you get an example of music video as a still really viable form, which is really cool.” – Chris ([17:29])

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4. Industry Talk: The Mandalorian & Grogu Movie Projections

Timestamps: 17:59 – 20:06

• Brief detour into the latest Star Wars spinoff, skepticism about box office prospects, and speculation on Disney/Lucasfilm’s “spin” around success/failure.
  • “All of that is them spinning the fact that this kind of just looks like a Verizon commercial.” – Andy ([19:34])
• Personal indifference from both hosts about Mando & Grogu among their families: “None... No interest in Star Wars, no interest in Harry Potter.” – Andy ([19:39])

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5. Main Event: Deep Dive on Apple TV’s Widow’s Bay

Timestamps: 21:02 – 49:42

Show Overview & Creative Team

• Widow’s Bay is hailed as a staggering example of Apple spending its money wisely ([23:00]). Created by Katie Dippold (Parks & Rec, Ghostbusters), pilot directed by Hiro Murai (Atlanta, Station 11), with episodes from Andrew DeYoung and Ti West ([21:24]-[22:21]).
• Premise: Skeptical mayor in a New England town resists townsfolk’s superstitions about a centuries-old “curse” ([22:21]).

Artistic Praise & Comparisons

Timestamps: 23:00 – 30:59

• Widow’s Bay makes exceptional use of genre blending—horror and comedy—in a way that feels organic, not forced or glib (“walks a genre tightrope that I did not believe to be possible” – Andy, [25:08]).
  • “Most of the comic moments or the punchlines in this or the comedy moments are very situational so far.” – Chris ([27:22])
• The show stands apart from most genre TV: “Why is everything else written the way that it's like? I think this is phenomenal. … I watched the pilot twice. I don't watch anything twice.” – Andy ([23:34],[23:51])

Specific Details & Craft

Timestamps: 24:04 – 33:04

• The aesthetic and visual style—from location shoots to camera filters—is lauded as vital to the show’s unique flavor.
• Efficient, “classy” exposition (e.g., small character beats establishing the town’s dynamic and the mayor’s motivations, [25:07]).
• “Chill” New England setting: an isolated island with no cell coverage, brimming with quirky locals, folklore, and hints of the supernatural ([28:25],[31:32]).
• The show delivers information as “exposition hints” rather than dumps, maintaining intrigue around local legends and the mayor’s family ([31:32]).

Cast Ensemble

Timestamps: 34:13 – 39:24

• Matthew Rhys (as Mayor Tom Loftus): Praised for a nuanced, “point guard” performance balancing comedy and gravitas ([34:19]).
• Supporting cast: “That guy” all-star team—K.O. Flynn, Kevin Carroll, Dale Dickey, Jeff Hiller, Steven Root, Tim Boltz, Neil Casey, Toby Huss ([36:32]-[37:18]).
• The casting and deep bench of character actors are described as “what [creators] want to give jobs to and want to work with because they make everything better.” – Andy ([38:08])

Thematic & Structural Innovations

Timestamps: 39:08 – 44:32

• Attention to costuming and production—each character’s wardrobe tells a story ([39:08]-[40:13]).
• The show plays with episodic structure: Pilot sets up premise and tension, but the second episode pivots to a “haunted house” and “monster of the week” vibe ([41:04]).
  • “It gives us the show's first, I believe, genuine jump scare and horror movie.” – Andy ([42:14])
• Hints of “X-Files” and “Parks and Rec”: The island contains endless, myth-rich story possibilities; not every episode must center the main plot ([44:04]) .
• Influence of sitcom serialization and mutability, ala Mike Schur and The Third Day ([45:21]-[46:57]).

Tone, Influences, and Unique Flavor

Timestamps: 47:31 – 49:42

• Widow’s Bay signals its influences (e.g., Stephen King) but forges a unique identity; it’s not just “recreating entertainment from the creator’s childhood” ([48:00], [48:21])
• Both hosts agree: “I honestly don’t have any critiques.” – Chris ([49:08])

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6. Industry & Apple TV+ Discussion

Timestamps: 49:42 – 57:15

• What is Apple’s endgame in content? Hosts speculate on Apple’s diffuse but well-funded TV approach, its lack of internal “taste,” and the sustainability of its content spending ([50:31]-[54:51]).
  • “Their goals are so wide you kind of can't make a declaration about what they are doing or not doing. They are essentially doing almost everything.” – Andy ([50:31])
• Will new Apple leadership curtail content spending? Is this “soft power” even important to Apple’s brand? ([53:20]-[54:07])
• Comparisons to Netflix (“Sarandos’ love of Hollywood isn’t questioned, but is this good for business?”), and a mini-digression into studio lot news and the health of Hollywood production ([54:07]-[58:21]).

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7. Top Chef: Restaurant Wars Breakdown

Timestamps: 59:09 – 71:04

• Is Restaurant Wars a fair marker of “great chef” vs. “great Top Chef contestant”? The hosts dissect this classic mid-season challenge ([59:46]-[60:44]).
  • “It's one of the few times… we actually see what these contestants might be like in a real world, professional setting.” – Andy ([60:44])
• Commentary on this year’s twist: inclusion of takeout orders—meant to reflect post-pandemic restaurant life, but perhaps too distracting and splitting the chefs’ focus ([61:28]-[62:26]).
• Critique (“commit fully or don’t”) and alternate challenge ideas (ghost kitchen!) ([63:57]-[64:09]).
• Breakdown of major players’ arcs, competitive field, and how the narrative focus has shifted throughout the season ([66:48]-[69:44]).
  • “There are only three potential winners of this season unless something bizarre or catastrophic happens. … [Rhoda], Anthony and Lawrence.” – Andy ([67:52])
• The value of editing “hero moments,” how the season’s storyline unfolds, and sharing Top Chef with family ([70:30]-[71:03]).

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8. After Dark: Sports Fandom and Weekend Pop Culture

Timestamps: 71:09 – End

• Chris and Andy riff on the emotional experience of sports wins (Flyers hockey, Sixers playoffs), their different personal reactions, and sharing the excitement with friends ([72:11]-[73:37]).
• Preview of what's next: Euphoria coming up on Monday, as well as casual discussion of the new Devil Wears Prada 2 and recent family movie obsessions ([74:05]-[75:10]).
• The episode closes with reflections on intergenerational pop culture, and the prospect of Uncle Chris explaining Christopher Nolan to Andy’s 13-year-old ([76:21]).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Widow’s Bay blending genres:
  “This show walks a genre tightrope I did not believe to be possible.” – Andy Greenwald ([25:08])

• On Apple TV’s strategy:
  “Their goals are so wide you kind of can't make a declaration about what they are doing or not doing. They are essentially doing almost everything.” – Andy Greenwald ([50:31])

• On casting and creative execution:
  “These are the people you want to give jobs to and you want to work with because they make everything better.” – Andy Greenwald ([38:08])

• On the endearing, offbeat folklore of Widow’s Bay:
  “We all grew up with run past that house, don't walk and hold your breath by the graveyard… This show really effectively plays on that psychology.” – Chris Ryan ([34:13])

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Highlighted Timestamps

• [05:32] REM fandom and Athens, Georgia pilgrimage
• [11:11] Laura Dern’s White Lotus role speculated
• [16:57] “Choreography is the best special effect in the world.”
• [23:00] “This show is awesome. These first two episodes are fantastic.”
• [25:08] “Walks a genre tightrope I did not believe to be possible.”
• [31:32] The show’s innovative “exposition hints”
• [41:04] The strength of episode structuring and direction
• [44:04] “Monster-of-the-week” storytelling potential
• [49:08] “I honestly don’t have any critiques.”
• [59:46] Top Chef: Is Restaurant Wars fair?
• [67:52] Predicting the finalists in Top Chef
• [72:14] “I think I've made a decision. I'm gonna stick with it.” (on hockey fandom)

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Tone

• Lively, humorous, and deeply knowledgeable, with equal parts affectionate roast and serious critical appreciation
• Encouraging, genuine, and clear about personal biases (“I don’t watch anything twice”—Andy on Widow’s Bay)
• Insider-y but relatable, with lots of “if you know, you know” references for both indie music and TV

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This episode is both an enthusiastic celebration of Widow’s Bay and a thoughtful meditation on where great TV comes from—be it streaming giants’ checkbooks, singular creative vision, or an inspired ensemble cast. Whether you’re in it for the hot takes on the latest genre TV, restaurant reality show drama, or just to laugh along with two friends who love this stuff as much as you do, it’s a must-listen for pop culture hounds.

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

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[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio looking for the next Martha's Vineyard, it's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm excited for today's show. Kind of a genre zag.

[Chris Ryan]

It is a genre zag, especially from the scaredy cat across from me here, Andy. We are going to be talking about Widow's Bay, which is a new show on Apple tv. We're going to talk about Top Chef. We have a little bit of news at the top. We have a grab bag of popular culture that we're going to hit on from the world of movies and music and television. It's great to see you. It's Thursday. We can keep. Let's let our hair down. If we have hair, let it down.

[Andy Greenwald]

You want to unveil something?

[Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

My trip to Turkey is this time worked out.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I ask you a quick question before we get into it about podcasting? You know, as always, I am a dedicated follower of your appearances across the podcasting space and I really was enjoying your appearance on the Bill Simmons podcast

[Chris Ryan]

until the other day.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's no but okay. But I was cur. So you. You kindly went on the Bill Simmons podcast. You had an invitation to come on, I think, in the assumption that you would be there to be.

[Chris Ryan]

So I will say this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

To Bill's credit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I was on Bill Simmons's pod the other day. Typically, I have gone on in humiliating moments in Philadelphia sports, and sometimes it feels a little humiliating for me personally.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

That being said, days before, Bill was like, you haven't been on in the NBA playoffs, have you? And I was like, I haven't. And then he hit me up on Tuesday and was like, are you around? I was supposed to do the mailbag with them that morning, I think, and instead came on for the Night shift with. With Late Night House, and.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which is a great team. You guys are great together. I only. I thought that you guys were going to suggest some local, like Kill Rockstar's bands to be cheap halftime entertainment for the Trailblazer season.

[Chris Ryan]

The late part of the pod.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm getting there. But here's my point. I wanna bring this relevant. This is not just for the sports heads out there.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you came on feeling good about the Sixers, had a really nice victory, and he wanted to talk about Derrick White and how he was slightly disappointing. What is the TV equivalent of that? If I came on here and I was like, Chris, Beef Season 2 is everything I want in a TV show this year, and you were like, ali Wong kind of didn't show up this year, and I just kind of focused on what she was doing instead. Like, how could we do that for tv to each other?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't mean to throw this back at you, but is it kind of like talking about Euphoria without ever having watched Euphoria?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. However, now you're giving me ideas that what I could do instead is just talk about how I spent my Sunday nights in 2018 and 2021, or whenever that show came up.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Made a nice dinner.

[Chris Ryan]

I was wondering if you heard the Greenwald bait at the end of that whole segment.

[Andy Greenwald]

I haven't made it there yet. No.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. All right. There's something in there for me.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's a little Easter egg for me.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, because I believe this argument started during the LA Confidential taping that you were obviously a part of, but there has been, like, this, like, rolling debate between me and Bill and others about REM versus the Replacements.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I heard that you touched on

[Chris Ryan]

this and I did. You heard?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, like in the Washington Post.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, what I do is I talk to people who Listen to the podcast. I just have, like, remember, remember Varys on Game of Thrones? Like, I have a little army of. What do you call them? Little birds?

[Chris Ryan]

Master of whispers.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I've got some podcasts.

[Chris Ryan]

Little birds. And we. You know, a lot of the problem with this argument is that the parameters of the. What are we arguing about? Is not quite clear. Like, I can tell Bill wants to just say REM's better than the Replacements, which he's more than welcome to say, but his point is more like, you guys think that the replacements were bigger, but REM was the biggest. And I'm like, I have no doubt that's true. I was there.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's objectively true. But REM briefly, was the biggest band in the world.

[Chris Ryan]

But I can imagine you are REM over Replacements guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is a head versus heart thing. This is tough. I.

[Chris Ryan]

You were one of the biggest REM fans I know.

[Andy Greenwald]

REM is my gateway. REM is my everything. Like, here's. You know, prior to this moment, I think the most revealing and nerdiest thing I've ever said about my own self lore on this podcast was talking about the Twin Peaks fanzine I made on dot matrix printers in my middle school.

[Chris Ryan]

It's nice that you think that's the nerdiest thing you've said on this podcast, but that's okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

About my past. Everything since then, when you were watching Euphoria is fair game. My best friend Lara and I were so into REM in, like, 1990 that we made our parents take us to Athens, Georgia. We begged to have a spring break trip to Athens, Georgia, just to be in the town they were from. And I believe, unconfirmed, 30 plus years later, I believe maybe we met their manager's mother.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, that's nice. How did you do that? Did you walk around Athens being like, rem, please come out.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, you know, you have to do it more in code, you know? You know, you have to sort of do like, like, sing little scraps of song. Song h. Like, into bushes and then maybe some people come out. No, I was like, you know, you had one. Had read in a magazine that, like, Michael Stipe enjoyed the vegetarian drove down

[Chris Ryan]

I95 to Athens, Georgia.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, we flew. We flew in an airplane.

[Chris Ryan]

Must be nice.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it was. Listen, the economics were different then. You know what I mean? A family of four could take a trip to a college town without bankrupting the whole year.

[Chris Ryan]

Were you doing it under the auspice of an early college Visit?

[Andy Greenwald]

I was 13. There would be no no, it was purely. I can't believe this. Like, now I'm on the other side of this. And if my children were like, please, please take us to the home of the creator of the amazing Digital Circus, the weird cartoon that's on Netflix. I would say. I would say. Who's this? Why are you texting me?

[Chris Ryan]

But they.

[Andy Greenwald]

But my. Our moms took us on this trip to do relatively nothing.

[Chris Ryan]

If I. If Faust came to me, you know, is Faust the guy that the devil makes a deal with or is Faust.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think if Faust came to you, he'd be like, don't take the deal.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. If I was offered a devil's deal where I had to do something terrible, but I got to know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

What your life would have been like if you had attended the University of Georgia.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, drafted by Howie Roseman, I would have it. I would have been a 11th year senior water boy.

[Chris Ryan]

Still have eligibility.

[Andy Greenwald]

Still have some eligibility left? No. But to your question.

[Chris Ryan]

Red shirting for anxiety every year and

[Andy Greenwald]

you red shirt for anxiety. Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Now you can. Can I do it right now?

[Andy Greenwald]

Because I feel a little exposed. The. So REM Was like my gateway drug to all indie music and was my favorite band when I was a kid. And then from there I went to other places, including discovering the Replacements, who became much more important to me like high school into college. Okay, so I kind of can't do it. But if the argument is who is objectively bigger, it's unquestionably REM but the Replacements whole. The reason we love them is because they were so self defeating and such a giant mess.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I think also there was like a definitive cutoff point where REM Obviously stopped touring. Bill Barry left the band. They made like one or two more. Bill Barry. Even without Bill Barry, they.

[Andy Greenwald]

They continued to make records in tour for 14 more years.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I guess I got my facts wrong there. But I just was. There was something about like the.

[Andy Greenwald]

But that mo. That was the ending placements had a

[Chris Ryan]

little bit more like mythology. Not mythology. Like there was a little bit more like, do you think they'll ever get back together? Do you think they'll ever tour again?

[Andy Greenwald]

And then they did.

[Chris Ryan]

And then they did.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you go to that show?

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't, but I'm not actually a big reunion show guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

You just. You know what I was doing at that moment? I was slowly pulling in the high ground. Like I just won a big handed poker and you just yanked the tablecloth.

[Chris Ryan]

No, it's not that. I just. I've seen I think of the reunion shows that I've seen.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Mission of Berm is still by far the best.

[Andy Greenwald]

Cool. Do you go to the My Bloody Valentine show? No, I think that I have structural damage still to my sternum.

[Chris Ryan]

Wait, which. Which era?

[Andy Greenwald]

At Roseland? Like, I don't know, 15, 16 years ago?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I didn't. Do you still have, like, bad hearing because of that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Huh?

[Chris Ryan]

Sorry.

[Andy Greenwald]

I felt it in my bones. This is. By the way, we haven't had, like, a meeting with the higher ups in Sweden recently, but I imagine this is. Doing numbers. Like, this is the best way to start.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's okay to open with, like, a little bit of chatter. It's. That's my. As an. The executive producer.

[Andy Greenwald]

But so are you in house on the. On the. Is your point that, like, you like the Replacements more or they've lasted longer?

[Chris Ryan]

Like Bill. Bill was sort of trying to say, like, I have great music taste. And House and I were, I think, a little bit rejecting that. House also referenced minor threat in Fugazi, which I think might be the first time those bands have come up on any of Bill's podcasts in. In the 20 years he's been doing it or whatever.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the words minor and the words threat have appeared.

[Chris Ryan]

They might be like, Franz Wagner is a minor threat to get 18 points tonight.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I'm saying.

[Chris Ryan]

But I mean, the banned minor threat. Let's talk a little bit about the

[Andy Greenwald]

Chicago front office strategy. Is Fugazi right now. How is that?

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. See, I can do no front office. Okay. Okay. There's not a lot of TV news this week.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's some culture news.

[Chris Ryan]

We could do this, which is Laura Dern is replacing Helena Bonham Carter. We talked about that on Monday on White Lotus.

[Andy Greenwald]

Laura Dern replacing Helena Bonham Carter. Graham Platner replacing Janet Mills, who you are replacing her.

[Chris Ryan]

She just ran out of dough.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, what happens when you run up against socialist. All of those small donations, you know, that's how I get by. Every guy gives me a buck.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Every guy who sees you. Yeah. Awesome. That's great. Laura Dern, Mike White reunited.

[Chris Ryan]

Question is, you know the White Lotus, the Natasha Rothwell character, the Jennifer Coolidge character, obviously connective tissues through multiple seasons. Laura Dern voice acted in season two.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

As Dominic Degrasso, as Michael Imperial, Oli's character's wife. Do you think Mike White got in his bag and was like, she's coming to France.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that's an option. That's a very cool idea. That hadn't occurred to me.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, there's something about the immediacy with which this happened, you know, and if you were like, I have to create a whole new character out of whole cloth and why they're here and what their role is. Because it did sound like he was like, we're scrapping that character.

[Andy Greenwald]

Don't you think it's a little bit like when we needed a first guest for Stick the Landing and somehow you got the call.

[Chris Ryan]

Was I first?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, on our list, yeah. Oh, we actually changed the scheduling a little bit. So you didn't, you know, we don't

[Chris Ryan]

want to get behind the scenes stuff, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

But you know what I mean? Like, they clearly have a deep connection and creative relationship. So under the circumstances that they are currently filming and what's, you know, that was an easy call to make. I think what's interesting is what you said is the most interesting thing slightly below that was just in the release that he was writing an entirely new character for her, which suggested like, I lazily assumed that that character was in some way connected to Steve Coogan's character. Like maybe they were a couple. My other favorite thing is the White Lotus is like normie famous now in the way that I saw there were tabloid photos of like Helena Bonham Carter in first photos since Shock. White Lotus Exit. And it just looks like Helena Bonham Carter.

[Chris Ryan]

What periodical was this?

[Andy Greenwald]

The Tatler? I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

What was it? Was it Daily Mail?

[Andy Greenwald]

Probably. I mean I saw, I saw this on, on the Internet's front page Reddit. But like she's just, she just looks like Helena Bonham Carter. Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

She's probably just like going to prep, you know, genuinely.

[Andy Greenwald]

So she did not look particularly troubled or different. Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

[Chris Ryan]

That'll be interesting. If the Daily Mail and the New York Post and whatever gets like involved with like set photos of White Lotus. If it's achieved that status, I'm sure it actually. Yeah, you don't want to be in that paper. It's never a good thing if you show up in the New York Post.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm trying to think the alternative of that. Like if you hit a game winning home run for the next. That's possible.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

But like, I mean, is that possible?

[Chris Ryan]

Nine. Don't. Come on, don't tempt fate. Nine times out of ten, if you're in the New York Post, it's a bad thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. Have you ever Been in the New York Post,

[Chris Ryan]

kind of. I think I appeared in a story that my wife was wrote in, like, 2002, 2003.

[Andy Greenwald]

Was it about subway surfers?

[Chris Ryan]

No, honestly, it was about the smoking ban and whether it was still being enforced.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah. And so it was. You mean like in 2002?

[Chris Ryan]

Whenever it was new, Mike kicked it in. When did he do that?

[Andy Greenwald]

So you're saying it was, like, on the heels of the band.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel like he let us smoke after 911 for a little while. When did he ban cigarettes? No, it was Giuliani through 9 11.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then Bloomberg comes in in 02.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no, that was. And the backdrop of 911 was the mayoral election.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. You know, Well, I just remember Rudy at Yankee Stadium.

[Andy Greenwald]

Mark Greene would have let you keep smoking. Probably.

[Chris Ryan]

Was he another candidate?

[Andy Greenwald]

He was the presumptive next mayor of New York until 911 happened. And Giuliani was like, I gotta stay mayor.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, right. You're such a good custodian of New York political history.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it's important.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, so we have the Laura Dern thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sorry, were you pro or con in Phoebe's article?

[Chris Ryan]

I was. I. No, I did research. I, like, helped.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, you did. What were the places you went to

[Chris Ryan]

see if they were on, like, the Upper east side? And it was like going to different bars. And I like, we all. We kind of like split up 25 bars, which in New York is like three blocks.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you. That's rookie numbers.

[Chris Ryan]

And you just walk in.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And you'd say to the bartender, like, you'd have it. You'd order. You have to order something. And then you'd be like, oh, no,

[Andy Greenwald]

wait, you had to get a drink too.

[Chris Ryan]

Are we allowed to smoke? And you know, you wouldn't. You wouldn't expose them, but you would be, like, percentage wise.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hmm.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, in this sample size, like, this is how many people are still letting you smoke.

[Andy Greenwald]

Are you willing to do that again?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think anybody would let me do it. Especially not out here. All they care about is wellness.

[Andy Greenwald]

Would you try that?

[Chris Ryan]

No. I mean, there's. I don't really smoke that much. Don't.

[Andy Greenwald]

The legend is better than reality.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know how to segue to this. You want to talk about a music video?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I just thought it was great.

[Chris Ryan]

Can you set it up a little bit?

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't have in front of me, but, like, this is no Young Lean's video.

[Chris Ryan]

Swedish rapper turned crooner. I guess in some ways, Young Lean, talented fellow. Did a song with a. I think producers named Generation.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Or Producer. I'm sorry, I don't know. And he put out like a two part epic single. And Romaine Gofferus, that's your man who I. I like his filmmaking quite a bit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is he Costa's son?

[Chris Ryan]

He did. He is. Is that an epo? Baby, to you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jury's out.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. It's heavily, heavily influenced by Toshiyaki Toyota's Blue Spring, which a Japanese film from a while ago. It's basically about a bunch of prep school kids beating the out of each other and treating each other terribly. But in this young lean video.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, there's four minutes, a last 14 second mark, a coda, like a kind

[Chris Ryan]

of four or five minute end point where it's just got this incredible choreography. And you texted me last night, I

[Andy Greenwald]

mean, I was partly joking that we should talk about that as the main text.

[Chris Ryan]

You didn't say I'm joking. You said, let's talk about this tomorrow.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's probably. That does sound like me. You got me. That's my classic. Straight down the middle.

[Chris Ryan]

This has become quite a big thing on the Internet though.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I just thought, I mean, it just. It just filled me with joy because choreography is the best special effect in the world. And it was incredible to see something. It just felt really exciting to have all the things that are thrown at us and like all these harrowing images of Helena Bonham Carter shopping untroubled by being fired from a television show. To see something that was so viscerally thrilling, exhilarating, shocking, new, magnetic. And it's just. It's just dancing and it's an incredible one shot and we can still make stuff. And that's pretty much where I was at with it. I thought it was beautiful.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought it was fabulous filmmaking and I also just really love it. Like every couple of years, maybe every year you get an example of music video as a still really viable form, which is really cool. And the pod's called the watch. We tell people what to watch. They should watch this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or we just say what we've watched.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but I think people draft off us. They're like, where could we go that these guys have been.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think they use us a couple other pods and they make a consensus big board and then they watch what they want to watch.

[Chris Ryan]

Should we get to the main event today?

[Andy Greenwald]

You're being very silent on the Mando and Grogu numbers.

[Chris Ryan]

Talk to me about that.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I got nothing. They just hit tracking and it's now projected to make $80 million over Memorial Day weekend, which is quite a large amount of money.

[Chris Ryan]

I guess. Like in retrospect, I don't know what I thought would be a. I did not think that this movie was going to perform up to expectations. I'm very curious to see if it gets over what is I think considered the Star Wars Mendoza line, which is Solo's box office numbers.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the argument that they are going to make, which I think will be interesting to watch, the spin will be, we didn't spend that much on this and haha, we got you to watch a TV show in the movie theater. They won't add the haha part. That's me editorializing. But there will be an enormous amount of spin on background and on foreground saying, this is actually a different. You dummies don't get it. This is a different strategy because we

[Chris Ryan]

don't have a huge multi platform storytelling initiative.

[Andy Greenwald]

No. That we just didn't spend very much money on this. And so we spend more on marketing and the number we got to is profitable for us. Whereas even if it makes the exact same amount of. And I would believe this, this isn't necessarily spin. If it makes the exact same amount of money as Solo, I would imagine this movie is going to be more profitable because Solo was a famously tortured development process in which the director was replaced. Directors were replaced like two thirds of the way through that was going to lose money regardless to a degree that we probably will never know the full extent of. Whereas this maybe it won't. But all of that is them spinning the fact that this kind of just looks like a Verizon commercial.

[Chris Ryan]

Is there any interest in your household in seeing this?

[Andy Greenwald]

None.

[Chris Ryan]

None.

[Andy Greenwald]

But they also have no interest in Star wars, right? I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe they were just like, Grogu's cute.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no. No interest in Star Wars. No interest in Harry Potter. It's weird the way that they're uninterested in specific properties. Rem that their father couldn't care less. One day we'll figure out what the common denominator is.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, the anticip. This. I think I've gone from like, I won't be seeing this to like, I'll see this out of professional obligation, I suppose.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

All right, but does that mean Sean

[Andy Greenwald]

begged you to see it?

[Chris Ryan]

No, nobody begged me to do anything. I mean, it's just nobody does. I mean, it's not like anybody's just like, please, Mando.

[Andy Greenwald]

Josh, tomorrow on the phone.

[Chris Ryan]

It's either. I'm going to have to cut 1300 more jobs if you don't go see Mando. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime's same day delivery has your back, getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms apply all right, let's get to the main thing because this is an exciting it is.

[Andy Greenwald]

We are not stalling.

[Chris Ryan]

Widow's Bay is a new show that's on Apple tv. The first two episodes are already up, although I believe the listed release date was the 29th. I think it went up maybe a little early. Maybe I don't know how to really read release dates. It's created by Katie Dippold, who is a pretty accomplished screenwriter who did a pretty hilarious Sandra Bullock, Melissa McCarthy movie that he worked on the Ghostbusters reboot,

[Andy Greenwald]

worked on Parks and Rec, responsible for one of the greatest tweets of all time.

[Chris Ryan]

You are the key master of social

[Andy Greenwald]

media, you tell me, remembering the time that I dressed my friends were having a Halloween party and I dressed up as the Babadook and it was really more of an adults drinking wine situation.

[Chris Ryan]

And isn't there a picture of her dressed as the Babadook with everybody else

[Andy Greenwald]

is dressed normally lives rent free in my head forever. And weirdly, that tweet I think is more relevant to this show than some of her other credits.

[Chris Ryan]

So it's created the first episode written by Katie Dippold and then it's directed by I think in its entirety.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not in its entirety, but you know, it's Hiro Mirai. The great hiro Mirai, Atlanta.

[Chris Ryan]

Mr. Mrs. Smith, Station 11.

[Andy Greenwald]

But the other directors on this are Andrew DeYoung, who did Friendship and works with Tim Robinson T. West, who I think has done this. Ty west has done some films that you have seen and I have not. Yes, Hero did I believe 5 of the 10.

[Chris Ryan]

The logline for this is quote, a skeptical mayor of a New England town refuses to bow to the superstitions of the residents who claim that the place is cursed. It stars Matthew Reese, a POD favorite, as Mayor Tom Loftus. K O Flynn, now a Watch favorite who Plays his colleague Patricia in City Hall.

[Andy Greenwald]

She's a. A British West End favorite and was

[Chris Ryan]

in a show that I loved a lot called My Lady Jane from.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, that.

[Chris Ryan]

Two years ago. Yeah. And she's fantastic in that. And then it has basically a that guy character actor, all star team.

[Andy Greenwald]

Take the cast conversation, Put it down the road a minute, because I can't wait to talk about that.

[Chris Ryan]

This show is awesome.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

These first two episodes are fantastic. I think this is the best use of Apple's money because I think looks like they bought a town, like they bought an island.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

That I've seen since the iPhone 14.

[Andy Greenwald]

The MacBook Neo is pretty cool. I saw it in the store the other day.

[Chris Ryan]

No, this is what I want Apple TV to be doing more of and to be trying more of. And when you see what Katie Dippold and Hiram Orei do with the first two episodes, you're gonna be like, why does everything else look like and feel like what it looks like and feels like?

[Andy Greenwald]

And why is everything else written the way that it's like? I think this is phenomenal. This is. We are. We are suddenly in the clover here. Cause I Love Beef Season 2. And I think this show is astounding. Like, I. This is gonna mean something to you. I watched the pilot twice.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't watch anything twice. That Young Lean video, I barely remember it. I think this should.

[Chris Ryan]

You should start sending me, like, 18 things you want to talk about on the podcast and then be like, oh, I wasn't serious about hockey.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hockey's the one thing I don't text you 18 times a day about. That was cherry picking. I text you constantly. I thought this was just like a revelatory and joyful experience. And one of the places we should start, and I want to get in the weeds with it because all of the small details are so expert. And it's not just the production values of where it's shot. It's the filters on the cameras that Hero is using to make it look and feel a certain way with such taste and aestheticism and specificity. But also in watching the pilot, what I was finding myself admiring so deeply was the very, very classy and subtle ways and efficient ways that Widow's Bay achieves exposition. Where in the flurry of action that opened the show in the first six or seven minutes, there's a phone call to the police chief, who's another one of these great Mount Rushmore that. Guys, it's Kevin Carroll, who we loved on the Leftovers and in their first interaction, Kevin Carroll's chief of police says, why do you want to be. Why are you mayor of this town if you hate everyone in it? And it's just another little brick to build a character in the flow of the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But the biggest thing we have to talk about. I'm sorry to cut you off, is the fact that this show walks a genre tightrope that I did not believe to be possible.

[Chris Ryan]

It is possible, but you have to

[Andy Greenwald]

educate me on this.

[Chris Ryan]

So this show mixes comedy and horror, and there are comedies that have scary moments, and there are horror movies that have funny moments. But blending the two genres seamlessly is difficult. I'll give you a couple of examples that I think did it well. Cabin in the Woods. I think you could make the argument that there are elements of Scream, the Scream franchise, that. Where they indulge in, like, a kind of meta horror comedy. Like, where they're.

[Andy Greenwald]

Awareness of the tropes.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Commenting on what's happening. Fright Night. I mean, there's plenty of examples.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, I like Fright Night.

[Chris Ryan]

People might even consider Ghostbusters to be, like, a little bit of a comedy horror. Although I don't think it's, like, super scary.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, it's a library scene.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. But it's a difficult thing to pull off because it's. If you're being funny, when you're being scared, you wind up either not being funny or deflating the fear. You're just deflating the scares. And I think sometimes it can be a pressure valve release for people. But, like, for the most part, when it comes to horror, I like it treated fairly. Seriously. Like, I want to. I want to lose myself in the moment and really feel like what's happening on screen could or is happening. You know, it's like, that's part of the joy of it is the visceral kind of like, present tense of it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not to muddy the waters, but you had me watch the Resident Evil trailer just a moment ago, and I will not be seeing the film, but I was able to admire exactly what you're saying in that trailer.

[Chris Ryan]

It's looking intense.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was intense and it was visceral. And there was seemingly as much attention paid to the physicality of bodies dropping or tentacle, whatever it is in reality. So what you see and feel visually is incredibly captivating and present. If the main character of Resident Evil in the trailer did a Jim Halpert face to the camera, it would definitely make me relax more and it would undercut the whole point of it. And this show is Not. That's not what Widow's Bay does. So what the path that it chooses feels unique to me and quite artful.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I would say that most of the comic moments or the punchlines in this or the comedy moments are very situational so far. So they are not glib, kind of mugging everybody sort of talking like they're James Gunn characters kind of comedy. It's. Everything is about, like, there's a specific character that Matthew Reese is playing, and he has very specific people working around him. And all the comedy becomes out of character. All the comedy comes out of, like, this guy's like this. This woman is like this. And there's, like, these funny interactions that they have. But on top of that is the possibility that these people are all living in, like, a Stephen King nightmare where there's fog rolling in, there could be zombies, whatever, what have you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I joked about the tweet. Parks and Rec is a huge, huge, huge foundational piece for the show. What should we call this? Parks and Rech. What should we do? We can workshop that. The point being, I would say Parks and Rec and the Treehouse of Horror episodes of the six Paranormal and Rec. Let's keep going.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is a safe space, and we can always ask them to cut our bad ideas. Right, guys? The town of Widow's Bay is a. Or the island of Widow's Bay. It is somewhere in New England. I thought it was, like, Massachusetts esque. It might be Main Adjace, but it is a island that has not been discovered, has not become. It has not gone viral for its aesthetics. It is not a vacation hub. It is not really anything. And the mayor, Tom Loftus, played brilliantly by Matthew Rhys, again, like the casting, get someone who can be a compelling emotional actor, but also knows his way around a joke. He is essentially the mayor, Leslie Knope of this town who wants what's best for everyone, even if they don't agree with him. And he is very motivated to publicize this place and bring it kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Among the things keeping it in the early part of the 20th century is that there is no cell phone service. There is no WI fi, It is all connected by landlines. Everybody knows each other, et cetera, et cetera. In the first moment, you are introduced to this absolutely wonderful rogues gallery of locals who have quirks in the way that aren't, like, making fun of people, but it's just a familiar type of single cam comedy that we've encountered before. And then on the third Level. There's also this deep, deep bench of fake history where there are funny headlines like the way there used to be murals in Parks and Rec. And there's even funny paintings the way there used to be murals in Parks and Rec. Like, you know about dead man found by horse and things like that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Priest eaten by whale.

[Andy Greenwald]

It is elevated and it's funny. But what's incredible about the turn, and I did want to talk to you about my ability to just not only watch and endure things that are scary, but just love them, was that the show understands something that I think maybe you do, too, as a fan of the genre that, like the emotional line between laughing and hysteria and crying out in shock or fear. It's not that much distance between those two emotional responses.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Hiro's talked about that in interviews.

[Andy Greenwald]

So there is that kind of like hysteria, literally, that can veer from one to the other relatively quickly. And it's just on that line in a way that feels really, really natural to the piece and really captivating. Because I was like, man, we can. The re. I'm not joking. The reason I sent you the Young Lean video was I was like, look, I've just watched Widow's Bay, and now I've watched this, and we can still do stuff. Yeah, the old stuff still works if you recom. If you recombine it in a new form.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I think you're absolutely right. There's also a really good. They're playing some cool tricks. You're right. This. The cell phone thing is a very slick way of saying you can't ask the questions of why won't they just text each other to say, don't go into the cross. The fog is coming. Yeah. Right. So now you've got like a kind of 90s 80s sort of level of, like, communications with people. There also are. You were speaking about the exposition. We're not doing exposition dumps, though. They're exposition hints.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So there is, for instance, Steven Root. Well, again, another. Like, you guys got Steven Root. This is going to be watchable. Steven Root plays a very agitated old timer who is the antagonist of the mayor, Tom Loftus, and may have been a mayor himself at some point. Plays a guy named Wick, I believe, and he is insisting that the island has, quote, awoken because there was an earthquake. As the episode opens or as the season opens, there's an earthquake, and that this island has now got kind of a curse that's been activated by this earthquake and that there will be things that happen over the Next couple of days that portend for really bad shit coming. But the way he kind of puts these breadcrumbs out is not in an annoying like, oh, so let me guess, I have to watch like four hours of this before we get to an answer about this. Like, you can kind of tell there is an old wives tale about this island that nobody who's born there is allowed to leave and that if they do leave, they die relatively quickly after reaching mainland. And there's something going on with Tom Loftus, his family, where the mother is not there, we don't know where she is. And the son who is natural native to the island. Tom Loftus was born off the island but summered there. His son was born on the island. And his son is a little bit of a juvenile delinquent. But there is obviously a motivating fear, but also drive on the part of the mayor to be like, is this old wives tale, is this piece of folklore true?

[Andy Greenwald]

Any of these?

[Chris Ryan]

Is my son ever going to be allowed to leave this island?

[Andy Greenwald]

And he says he has, but I

[Chris Ryan]

don't think I did not believe him. And if he did, I imagine it was quick, you know, or something like that. And it just produces an anxiety around it. And I love, you know, look, we all grew up with run past that house, don't walk and hold your breath by the graveyard. Yeah, just like all sorts of little like old wives tales that we probably adhere to longer in our lives than we even admit. And some people still do to this day. You know, like some people don't like walking over cracks in the sidewalk. Some people, you know, it doesn't matter. But this show really effectively plays on that psychology. And it's like, do I really want to find out whether my cynicism is going to get me killed? So it's really, really, really effective in that way. I found I'm trying to think of a comp for what Matthew Rhys is doing in this. First of all, let's just take a second to admire what he has done over the last 10 years. Right. So got the Americans one of your favorite shows. We were big fans of Perry Mason. I was a very big fan of him in Beast in Me.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was a fan of him in Beast in Me.

[Chris Ryan]

And those are several different performances.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

He has kind of, I would say like always got a degree of like a kind of suave literacy to his performances and to his characters. This is another guy. This is another kind of color for him. And he is playing point guard in this show because he's got 10, 11 people to pass to at any given moment.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, he's the star of Presumed Innocent season two and Presumed Innocent.

[Chris Ryan]

I did not know that. Like, there's a scene in the second episode where he has a long interaction with Tim Boss from. From Righteous Justice.

[Andy Greenwald]

The names we're saying, I want to say them all at once at some point.

[Chris Ryan]

But, yeah, it's. It's. The ingenious, like, invention of this show is to just, like, put a very, very, very competent leading man in moments where he's throwing passes to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

The best character actors that Hollywood has, that TV has. I mean, what were some of your favorite supporting performances?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I want to get into that, but I just think you're right to point out, like, what Rhys is doing is astonishing, and you understand why the town loves him even though he is not super famous, because there aren't many people who can do what he can do. The type of performance he's giving is this, like, fever dream combination of Ted Danson and Steve Carell. It's really good in that, like, you are a talented actor who has some charisma, gravitas, suave, suavity, charm, but you can get down in it, and you can laugh, too. And also you can become hysterical, you know, but there's a generosity of it where he just seems to be enjoying the note that he's being asked, the notes he's being asked to play, while everyone else gets just, like, you know, hit the laugh button time and time again. So Cade o' Flynn is amazing. She's hysterical as Patricia, who, like, when the plot of the pilot is that a New York Times reporter played by another icon of this podcast, an actor we love, Bashir Salahuddin from Southside and Top Gun Maverick plays a what? A CV plays a New York Times journalist who's, you know, it's Tom's dream to have the Times right about the island, and he just needs him to

[Chris Ryan]

say, this is the next Martha's Vineyard, and, like, the entire fortune of the island is gonna change. And we're introduced very quickly to the idea that this is a place that's resisting the outside world. And because of that, the infrastructure of the town is kind of falling apart.

[Andy Greenwald]

Patricia. The first thing she asked Tom about the reporter is, did you tell him about my paintings? Kevin Carroll. We mentioned from the Leftovers. Dale Dickey as Rosemary, an office associate and gossip. Town gossip and gossip. You won't recognize her name, but you will recognize her face and her voice almost instantly next to her in the Office is Jeff Hiller, who won an Emmy for somebody somewhere and was just on Pluribus. Steven Root Evan, Tom's son, is played by Kingston Rumi Southwick, who is the son on Presumed Innocent season one.

[Chris Ryan]

That Presumed Innocent coaching tree, really.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's giving his sister was Chase Infinity in that. I mean, remarkable, remarkable stuff. Nancy Lenahan, who is just brilliant and funny in limited minutes on the paper is Jerry Tim Boltz from Righteous Gemstones. The bald guy in the band from Righteous Gemstones is one of the guys on the island. Neil Casey, who's a funny actor who's in the Ghostbusters reboot. The great Toby Huss from Halden Catch Fire as the Reverend like, the thing that I'm trying to communicate is not how amazing these people are. And it's not even like what Katie and Hiro have done here is like a dream of, like, anybody who has the opportunity to make television. These are the people you want to give jobs to and you want to work with because they make everything better. And how fun would it be to be on an island with all these creative people? It's that they came into this with the strength of material, strength of point of view to tell Apple what's best. Now, I'm not. It's not fair to suggest that, like, any one streamer or network is monolithic and that there's some, like, internal pushback to good ideas or interesting casting. But if you don't come in as the creator with a backbone and a point of view and some institutional or historical reputational muscle, you are going to get moved off your square in the margins. Yeah, and in the margins. I mean, like, I don't know what the arc is for Patricia and for Tom, but in a traditional sitcom, that's the couple that's going to happen. And once that's maybe the possibility, which I don't know if it is, and I don't know if I would want it to be, Kato Flynn is the person who will get the respectful nods in the meetings but won't get the part. Everyone, it seems like that they wanted got the part in a way that feels cohesive. And it's the same way with, like, what would this show be if they hadn't filmed on location somewhere in Massachusetts? Sure, it's not half the show that it is.

[Chris Ryan]

Look, I am not going to comp it to shows that don't do this well, but I can think of a dozen off the top of my head where when you're watching, you're like, nobody here chose Their outfit. No character woke up in the morning and put their clothes on.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're onto something.

[Chris Ryan]

And in this show, it's briefly mentioned that Tom was coming to the. To the island as, like, kind of like a rich kid from the mainland. Right. Like, and that, like, he would come and hang out with the townies, but, like, always got to go back to his nice life. And while he. This has kind of been brought up, I noticed, like, how Tom was dressed, which is kind of like J. Crew, spring, summer, like, well put together, nice pair of jeans, button down, tucked in blazer. And, you know, he's being very earnest. Like, he seems like he wants the best for the island, but you're right. Like, the way you communicate. Difference can be in whether a guy tucks his shirt in or not or what kind of print he wears, how

[Andy Greenwald]

the corduroy jacket fits him or doesn't.

[Chris Ryan]

Exactly. And it's like a guy who has, like, three really good outfits, you know, and everybody else is kind of like, I'm wearing a rain slicker, or, like, I. I'm still allowed to smoke indoors, you know, like, I thought of you. Yeah. And it's just an attention to detail that I associate with Hiramurai stuff and that I think it's easy in TV to kind of be like, here's the scripts, here's the set. Like, put them in beige or gray and have them talk. And you can get much deeper than that. And these episodes are about 38 to 45 minutes long, which I think I am gonna keep banging this drum that. That makes a huge difference. And you can just see that there's, like, a real depth of vision and artistry going on in, like, all the departments.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I want to talk about briefly, the one other small triumph in this show that we clearly love. I can't wait to watch more. The first episode, the pilot, works brilliantly and does something that surprised me in this day and age, which is it walks us to the precipice of what the show is about and then pulls it back. Smart TV making. There's more road ahead. Let's enjoy it. And then when it does something even more remarkable, even in this day and age of changing production models and things, second episodes are still a bear. Second episodes, despite the fact that we are not in the other than the pit, we're not in the let's churn it out, keep it going production model that we used to be in, that caused the reputation of second episodes to dip, in which it was like, people's second albums. Like, you Have a lifetime to make the first, then you have two weeks to make the second. So the second episodes are generally the pilot again while you find your footing with a new people group of people in writers room. Second episode of Widow's Bay is a completely different look into the show. It's a haunted house episode and every moment is packed with the kind of detail and possibility that you're describing. It gives us the show's first, I believe, genuine jump scare and horror movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, there's also like a real taste of the supernatural.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. But within it it also has some of the more two episode sample size elite jokes thus far. Like when spending the night in the local inn in advance of the tourists coming as a dare.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, to prove it's not haunted.

[Andy Greenwald]

To prove it's not haunted. Tom is there at the honor bar and then he looks at like he opens the cabinet that all B&BS have of like Dick Francis paperbacks and like self help books and board games. And the board games that he finds include Daddy's Home, which he plays later. And then two looking like small box like uno card games. One is called Teeth and inside of it is just like a teeth extracting wrench. And then the other one is called Run and it is a deck of cards that he flips through.

[Chris Ryan]

It says don't run.

[Andy Greenwald]

It says, not yet, not yet, not yet, not yet, not yet. Run. I will carry the beauty of these jokes with me for quite some time.

[Chris Ryan]

When this show was first sort of getting promoted, they did so with a VHS quality, I guess, like travel ad for the island from, from earlier, like from decades ago. And it was, you know, like a guy basically standing on a, on a rocky beach being like, welcome to Widow's Bay, like come along. And then like the guy walks away but the camera doesn't move. And it has a real like a little bit of a Twin Peaks vibe to it. The thing that the second episode made me think of and about the viability and maybe perhaps the legs of the show. And with Apple as, as foundation and Silo and many other shows and season five of waiting, they will let you finish the story. So the second episode though, I was like this X Files.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, what could they do?

[Chris Ryan]

Like monster of the week. We're never quite sure if it was

[Andy Greenwald]

real or not because it is not as the first episode implies. Oh, it's not a zombie show. It's not like one thing is happening. This island. This island is fucking weird. And weird stuff happens here, much like, you know, funny, heartwarming stuff happens In Pawnee. Yeah. And that's engaging, but it's also viable for long term if you have that kind of creative grip on what the thing is that you want to do.

[Chris Ryan]

The thrill of the second episode actually came early on, before any of the scares come, is I realized that much to my chagrin, that the New York Times writer had left because I loved the character and I love the actor.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

But it took away any kind of like, false time frame or.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Or anything where it was like, we have to solve all of this so that this guy, when he leaves the island, will write well about us. It's like, no, he's already left. We're okay now. But we're not. You know, and it's really cool when a show is like, why don't we do like, each episode has its own vibe rather than each episode is essentially people coming back and forth and talking to each other and then there's like a false cliffhanger at the end. But we're only doing this over the course of three days or whatever.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's where I see the other two influences that I would throw in there. We talked about Parks and Rec a lot, clearly. But Mike Schur, who is Katie Dippold's boss on Parks and Rec, is the reigning champion of classic sitcoms that have a little bit of the Wire esque mutability and serialization. Enough to engage modern audiences, but enough of the old stuff, too, to keep you. Keep things a little bit lighter and make it, you know, so that these shows don't sink under the weight of their own plot or premise. The other show that I was gonna throw out there is. Do you remember the third day?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, of course.

[Andy Greenwald]

Third day was a pandemic.

[Chris Ryan]

Have you ever watched the live episode?

[Andy Greenwald]

The live episode. So this was a pandemic era HBO copro experiment starring Jude Law, made by essentially experimental theater people and directors that at the midpoint of the season, there was a day long theatrical happening that was livestreamed that in some way advanced the plot. Did we spend our day doing that? I mean, it was the pandemic. Like, I read the Magic Mountain for sport. Like, I probably did watch it, but kind of. It's pretty good. But not Dr. Faustus. Clearly, though, in terms of my, you

[Chris Ryan]

know, I guess I just never really thought about. Is Faust the guy? Faust is the guy who makes the deal. Or Faust is what they call the devil.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, Gotcha. The devil's like, obviously not Doctor. You know what I mean? He's like, please call me Faust. I Believe that's the translation from German.

[Chris Ryan]

You and I are friends.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's talk. What do you want, Faust? Anyway, it's a tough watch, that show, but it was engaging. And I wonder, I want to ask if we get the chance, Hiro and Katie, if they overwatch that show, because there is an element of things don't work the same here. And are you trapped here? I don't know. Are you?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The kind of like brinksmanship in terms of like, how far is this thing really gonna go? That was very engaging on that show too, because there was a mania to it and a creative, like full creative commitment to the bit.

[Chris Ryan]

The, you know, the, the font of the title card is. It'll make you think of Stephen King, but it's not explicitly Stephen King font. And I guess I would leave it there, which is that there are. Are some things that like, wear their influences on their sleeve or in fact lead with their influences in order to like, kind of create a mood board for it. I'm sure that they did that here, but it was just different enough where I was like, cool font.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look. The. The cool show, you know, like the story of. Or the agony of influence of in our contemporary era is I think, a divide between the properties and projects that are just clearly attempts to recreate entertainment from the creator's childhood.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Versus ones that are like, I was raised in a circulating bath of AMBLIN and Spielberg and 80s Ghostbusters and that informed who I am. And now I'm going to do this with it. And the more success. To my mind, the most successful things do that. You know, I'm actually curious, like, what I just described. Which category do you think Stranger Things falls into? You watch the whole thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, by the end, I'm not trying

[Andy Greenwald]

to take a shot. I'm just curious.

[Chris Ryan]

I think you'd probably be surprised, but still like bored by the fact that it turned into like James Cameron at the end.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also 80s.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. But it is essentially like closer to Terminator and Terminator 2 and almost like the Never Ending Story and like, you know, sci fi epics.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was all in a blender.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Whereas the first couple of seasons are very much rooted in like Goonies and, and, and that kind of thing. I think that's it for Widow's Bay. For me. I mean, like, I, I honestly don't have any critiques of it. I don't. I didn't, I didn't really have like everything that like my brain would be like, oh, let me guess. You're not going to tell us, like, why this? I was like, no, this is, like, really working. And I think part of it is the runtime, the pace and the production is just so fun to be in that you're not really sweating the, like, the little things. So look at us.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is the Predator handshake meme of comedy fan and heart.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I'm curious because, you know, I think we were probably like, mixed towards not happy about Margo's Got Money troubles. And I cannot say that I'm looking forward to the revival of Ted Lasso. There's a couple of sci fi shows that Apple has, like, obviously for all mankind. Silo is coming back. I think they'll do the last. I think they're ending foundation now. I don't even know if it's being promoted or not or if I don't know. But this Star City, which we talked about glowingly at least its trailer last week, and Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, which is coming soon with Tatiana Maslany, which looks

[Andy Greenwald]

pretty gritty, and friend of the pod, Jake Johnson.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, and looks like kind of a provocative, interesting, modern thriller. I'm kind of curious what they're doing over there.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think what I was saying before is probably fodder for a larger conversation about the state of the streamers. Like, Apple has so much money and its goals are so wide that you kind of can't make a declaration about what they are doing or not doing. They are essentially doing almost everything. And I think that I would love to get under the hood and try to understand what's working for them, what's working for audiences, and where any disconnects may have been in the creative process. And because for whatever problems we had with Margot's Got Money Troubles, we are in the minority. I think people just like, casually industry, not industry people, are really enjoying it. And I think it's because it is, you know, like, from the production design to the performances, like, it's really, really well made. That strikes me as something that is meeting its goals, you know, what it was set out to do. And if the vibe of the story of the book didn't work for us, then that's not necessarily the adapter's problem. I think that we've seen other examples of Apple shows where it feels like someone nodded off at the wheel on one side of it or another in terms of the notes they were or were not giving, or in terms of just like, the unfettered, maybe just like,

[Chris Ryan]

how production worked out, like, stuff didn't come together.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but not everything good like when you think, when we talk about like the famous development processes of like these. The two remaining titans of like, really, let's get in here and develop. Which are HBO and fx. I mean, they're grinders. They are incredibly demanding. I have seen the notes and the notes are brilliant and the notes are extreme and intricate. And not everything turns into a diamond if you squeeze hard enough. That doesn't work for everyone. Some creators, and they don't do that for everyone. I don't mean to pretend that that's what they do, but it's too facile to be like, Apple just shrugs and writes the checks and hbo, you know, obsesses over every detail. Broadly speaking, that's kind of probably true. But there are, they're outliers on either side and there's also good quality from either side. I wish that Apple's stuff was a little more focused for the consumer, but it almost doesn't matter if they do. Whereas, like Peacock, for example. I think what's fascinating about Peacock's recent choices editorially is it's very hard to imagine a consumer. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd love pushback on this. But like the average Peacock consumer who watches NBA, okay, so far we're in Top Chef. We're in the larger Bravo universe. Not necessarily me, the burbs, the Copenhagen test and Miniature Wife. Like, that's a very broad brush. Apple can get away with it. Apple can be like, do you like F1? Yes. Do you like slow horses? Sure. Also, here's this quirky horror comedy and then they sell 100,000 more MacBook NEOS.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. There has been some speculation about whether or not Tim Cook's resignation or stepping down will lead to stepping up. Sure. Step to heaven. Where is he going?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I think he's taking on a larger title. But he's no longer the CEO.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Whether the new CEO will be like, why do we have this? You know? Now I think probably you could make the argument that it's been a net positive for Apple to be so forward facing in culture by being a part of things like F1 and Ted Lasso and putting Killers of the Flower Moon out or what have you. But I'm. I'm curious to see whether there's ever any, like, hey, season five of that. Really? Like, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Any curtailing of it, Any changing any. It's funny though, because the one thing for all the criticism that people. Fair criticism. I think people lobby at Netflix, Ted Sarandos, like love of Hollywood or love of SNL or The things that he loves isn't questioned, but then they're like, but is this good for. Like, there's Tim Cook. This is not a shot against Tim Cook, but it's just like, I saw a thing that was like, the only time he's ever seemed really enthusiastic or happy is when he's crossed paths with Lana Del Rey, which respect. But it's funny that, like, you would think that someone who devoted so much capital to the sprawling entertainment wing of his company that continually does feel a little bit unmoored from strategy.

[Chris Ryan]

It's amazing what you can do when you don't buy data centers, you know,

[Andy Greenwald]

like, yeah, there you go.

[Chris Ryan]

You can make shrinking.

[Andy Greenwald]

There you go. Right? But you'd think that he would be a little bit like, how fun. I visited set and I do love this, you know, sure, he doesn't seem to be that interested in that, which is also fine. But the behavior of the company would suggest that he was like, in the same way, like, Jeff Bezos moved to Hollywood, you know, and he was just like, I like this.

[Chris Ryan]

And then he moved to where there are no taxes. There's a world in which, you know, I mean, Apple obviously is one of the more. One of the richest companies in the world. One of the most valuable companies in the world.

[Andy Greenwald]

There you go, glazing them again.

[Chris Ryan]

But if Steve Jobs, the movie written by Aaron Sorkin tells me anything, it's like sometimes there's competition internally for what's getting resources. And if they decide we haven't made something new, something really, truly mind blowing

[Andy Greenwald]

since ted Lasso Season 2.

[Chris Ryan]

Since Ted Lasso's no Sophomore slum. No. There's often a concern troll thing about Apple where it's like, where's the new iPhone? Where's the thing that's gonna change culture entirely?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, well, there's also nothing more to do with a phone. Like, now there's four lenses on the camera.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, exactly. But, like, would you argue that, like, maybe there's too much money being spent on TV and movies that could be going towards product development, or it could be going towards whatever else is core to their business.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not if the alternative is like, an AI companion you wear around your neck. Like, and then you can hang yourself with it? Like, I don't. I think that, that, that this is not. I don't, like, read Bloomberg in the Financial Times. This is not some, like, big brain zag. But the things that I have heard, like, just casually that they did, you know, they. They went down the path of like, maybe we'll make an Apple car or maybe we'll make an Apple TV that's also the screen.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I think that the. The. It proved to be smart that they were like, let other people make those things. We will have our phones be the

[Chris Ryan]

software for the car. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, so I. In that world where there isn't that much more iteration to do in the hardware space, having a studio, is it the worst thing? I don't know. But I think your question. Maybe this is more of a Matt Bellamy the town type question is like the soft power of producing content. What does that mean to their bottom line and how committed are they to it?

[Chris Ryan]

Because if they stopped, well, then, yeah, you get.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I know we're like, the Arc Light hasn't reopened. Yeah. But like, if Apple stopped making tv.

[Chris Ryan]

This whole thing that I saw, which it was admittedly a tweet and I did not then interrogate the truthfulness of it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Was the announcement by that, like, the Kyote.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Yes. Kyoto is going to, like, shut down.

[Chris Ryan]

And this is. If you're driving around Los Angeles, you see these trucks that say Kyote on the side, and it usually means there's a shoot going on. And I still saw him, you know, even in the dark days that we've been in. But them announcing that they're like, they're out on Hollywood.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was a weird announcement and a depressing one at a moment when. And it's not just the, like, you know, happy headlines coming out of, like, the, you know, there's no writer's strike that things are moving. There has been a slight drumbeat of it's coming back. Like there's more production happening. Netflix just bought the c. The old CBS Radford lot.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. There's another big soundstage going up on Santa Monica.

[Andy Greenwald]

So there was. So that. That was maybe more of like a. Who know? Is that. Is that an outlier or is that an indicator of the real economy?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, let's take a quick break. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about Top Chef. Because restaurant wars happened this week. This episode is brought to you by. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a 2 percenter. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply.

[Commercial Voice]

Tomorrow morning is knocking.

[Chris Ryan]

Stock your fridge now.

[Commercial Voice]

How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel, maybe?

[Chris Ryan]

Or a white chocolate mocha?

[Commercial Voice]

Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, we're back. Mm. Let's talk about Top Chef. I wanna talk to you more broadly about something rather than we're gonna get into the details of this episode, which was Restaurant Wars. Do you like Restaurant Wars? This is the backbone of the show. This is what, like, the merge in Survivor, this is what it kind of all builds up to, and then the game changes afterwards. And it really usually, I think, functions as, like, a mile marker to be like, we're entering the home stretch here with these chefs. But I was curious whether or not you think Restaurant wars is a barometer for who's good at Top Chef versus who's good at cooking.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think I'm of two minds of it. I think generally it is a very good benchmark midpoint of the season, partly just because of the nature of it. We're 23 seasons in, I believe it's been a part of every season, and the chefs are aware when they get to eight, what they're going to be doing. And they maybe have had some strategy and some thought, and the history of the show comes to the fore in a way that's fun, in that they're aware of the pitfalls of being front of house or whatever. I also think that it's one of the few times to your point where, like, we actually see what these contestants might be like in a real world, professional setting, as opposed to the heightened, manic, creative nonsense of the show. So I think that's really, really good. I also do think the front of the house stuff is incredibly revealing and incredibly important because, as you and I talk about all the time offline, when you're not texting me about hockey is like, restaurants are mostly good or bad because of the service and the experience.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that is underlooked by a lot of these. And it's also basically divorced from the reality of Top Chef. So I like all that. The thing that bugs me is they can't stop fiddling with it. There have been seasons when they go shopping for decor, like this season, and there have been seasons when they don't. I think the ones where they don't are better, where they explain their vision and then they have to, you know, make do with it. But, like, I don't think these guys are necessarily good at shopping. Clearly, in this case, some of them weren't. And beyond that, if they're just giving 24 hours to throw some cloth up in an abandoned Carolina warehouse, it's not really gonna sell the deal anyway. So focus on the other stuff instead. And I felt the same way about the this year iteration of takeout orders, too.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which is just like, I understand you want to try something new, and that certainly is part of restaurant life post Covid, but it was just, ultimately, it was distracting. And it's a split mission. Like, if you only have 24 hours and you have to have a dish that travels well, like, I think you're setting them up to a fail in a way that doesn't showcase their talents or reward the viewers of the show.

[Chris Ryan]

So it's interesting you bring up this. This twist that happens in restaurant wars, which is essentially like trying to recreate the. The panic of the bear within an already tense situation with. With restaurant. With, like, starting and. And serving at a restaurant over the course of one night. Two sittings at. With only like, a day or two of prep. I was watching Survivor last night. Survivor 50. This is a spoiler for this last episode of Survivor 50. I hope you don't mind, but, you know, they have successfully introduced a bunch of, like, twit here until now. Never seen before twists.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Last night, they get their customary letters from home, which is always a really emotional moment for the Survivor people. They've been out there for, like, three weeks, and, like, they get these letters from their loved ones and they all cry when that happened. They also brought out Mr. Beast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Mr. Beast walked out with a briefcase that said beware and said he would be back at Tribal council to, like, reveal what the beware. Like, chaos was gonna ensue and.

[Andy Greenwald]

And people know who this guy is.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, he's probably the one of the most famous YouTubers in the world. I wonder if your older daughter knows who Mr. Beast is. Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

But they. But, like, in the same way that, like, you know, when we were in the 80s, I was like, oh, that's Valerie Bertinelli. You know what I mean? Like, I wasn't a fan.

[Chris Ryan]

He does things where it's like, I gave away $250,000. You just had to spend a night in Alcatraz for it. You know, like, it's a little bit running, man. It's a little bit. Seems good games. He did the squid game. Mr. Beast Games.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is he running for mayor of LA? Is that a Better plan than Karen Bass plan. I'm listening.

[Chris Ryan]

His twist basically, like, upended tribal. And while I think tribal sort of ended in a very entertaining place, it's not pure Survivor. It's not pure Survivor gameplay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

And I thought that the takeout thing was an interesting wrinkle and ultimately did not. I think the right team won restaurant wars, which was Duen's team.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

But it was kind of like, either commit fully.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And fucking go. And like, ha. Somebody has to work a to go window.

[Andy Greenwald]

No. What. What I would suggest. And maybe this is coming, and maybe they talked about it and this is actually a bad idea in practice. Do a ghost kitchen.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Challenge where you have to create a ghost kitchen that's going to appear on the app. So you could get, like, they love getting branded. Get the apps involved.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then they have to see, like, how many.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm sure people have dreamed their whole life of getting to a ghost kitchen and making good kitchen teriyaki bowls on Top Chef.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a fair point. But if also, if we're being like, what is the industry now? There you go. Do you see, like, New York magazine covered the New York arrival of Goop Kitchen the way they once covered, like, the greatest French chefs deigning to set foot on the isle of Manhattan.

[Chris Ryan]

I did not see the New York magazine.

[Andy Greenwald]

Very cool. Yeah. It's a sign of the things. You can't have it both ways. We have been praising the season for some feeling the editorial hand more from time to time, which is appropriate when you are on season 23 or in the case of Survivor, double that. That didn't work for me because we had chefs and teams that were more than capable of doing this in ways that were compelling on their own. Now, they can't count on that. Like, if these chefs had, like, totally shit the bed or, like, not, you know, been mismatched in ways that didn't work, then we may have been complaining about wishing there were more wrinkles to it because they were all bad at doing the one thing they had to do. But I felt a little bit disappointed with the extra distraction because ultimately what the takeout thing did was give them a chance in the edit to, say, Dwen's team. And her performance was clearly superior. But some people lacked cutlery.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which was not as dramatic, maybe.

[Chris Ryan]

Well. Cause I think that the thing that I didn't understand was that these people are just gonna, like, go outside of the restaurant and eat. So that's why, I guess the cutlery was important. But I was mostly like, when they're like, do you need cutlery? I'm like, no, I'm taking it out and going home with it. So I'm fine. You know, the one other thing, Major note I had from this was that, you know, when this season began, I think my excitement, and I'm still really into this season, but my excitement was largely around the separation from the pack of Rhoda, Anthony, and Lawrence and the ensuing competition that would come out of that. Because I was like, you know, sometimes you have a Buddha, and it's just like, wire to wire. Nobody's gonna beat this guy. This was like, ooh, what if there's, like, a big three? And then there's, like, maybe a late breaker? And you could have, like, a pretty tight, like, it's anybody's ball game going into. Into the finale. And now it's kind of been like that, but not as good as I thought it was gonna be, because Lawrence and Anthony have kind of come back down to earth, and Rhoda's been in Last Chance Kitchen the entire season, seemingly. So I was curious whether or not you even had a feel for what these people are cooking right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought. I mean, one of the things that can happen in a way that I really enjoy in Top Chef is that you could be thinking someone is mid for weeks, and then, like, Oscar, and then not only is he charming enough in front of House, he makes the best dish of restaurant wars. And then everyone was like, well, that's exceptional. And you like to see it. You know, I like seeing people rise to the occasion and prove why they're there and make it seem as if they could be competitors, even though I don't really think that's the case.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

We should mention. We failed to mention. Since we talked about it a lot last week, like, it. Seeker was back.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, they.

[Andy Greenwald]

They did.

[Chris Ryan]

They did the thing that we thought they were going to do, which is Seeger just didn't go to Last Chance Kitchen, because obviously they shot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Two days or three days of the show before they did an lck. So they just had Seagull, like, kind of in the wings.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. So it's a little bit of a bummer, but just in terms of, like, it is. I don't know what fair is, but. Okay, he's back.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I don't know if those guys were at a competitive disadvantage from his. Where his head was at, and then making him Executive Chef was a choice.

[Andy Greenwald]

True. I think I could be wrong, but I don't know if I Will be. I think that there are only three potential winners of the season. Unless something bizarre or catastrophic happens. You got them. Rhoda is now back. Sorry for the last chance kitchen spoiler. But Anthony and Lawrence, and they are the best chefs. They're the best chefs and seemingly the best competitors. Although Rota clearly had a pretty spectacular slip up. I don't see the path for everyone else in terms of whether it's their abilities or their consistency, which is kind of a bummer. And even if it's been interesting this season, my daughters are all in. Finally took 23 seasons. But they love watching the show with me, which is quite meaningful for me. I love doing that. But they loved Brandon. They liked the twins, but they were super into Brandon, I think because he made ice cream for the dessert challenge and seemed to speak their language. But, like, I don't even know if he was a contender because real contenders who know how to play this game don't do what he did, which was essentially make himself invisible and put his name on something lacking. Like, that was just such a weird strategy. Fail in. In the one episode every year that they know they're going to be in.

[Chris Ryan]

Remind me. Brandon was the one who came and helped his brother when his brother had kind of.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which they showed like, he's an incredible. He was an incredible sous chef. He clearly is a very talented. Very fast. And backstopped everything.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. When Jonathan was like, oh, I haven't cut any herbs and services about the stars. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But then what did he make for his own dish? Was a gloopy rice pudding with four soda raisins on top.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, that's. That's never going to win.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it was weird lack of focus. And I think that that focus is the thing. Cause you could criticize people like Lawrence and Anthony for, like, playing down slightly to the competition or playing it safe.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, Anthony having immunity in restaurant wars was also like, kind of like, well, you can just go do xo. You can do executive chef.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then he also made a hideous, like, insanely weird looking choice to make a dish that was like, one thing. And then he just poured something else on top of it.

[Chris Ryan]

He also put okra in it, which is like, you're just tempting slime on slime.

[Andy Greenwald]

Ye. But playing it safe in a field like this kind of makes sense. I thought. Just going back to your first question, Dwen was so good at front of house and made it seem easy, which is what good restaurants should feel like. I thought that was a really nice showcase for her and her ability.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I thought she was quite good. I was worried with the edit that they were giving her when she was like, the thing about me is I am super organized. And I was like, this is. Either you're calling your shot or this is going to be like your montage.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let me tell you something. It is really fun. I recommend this for you with your ward or whomever. Like to watch reality TV with young minds that don't know about hero edits and stuff. Exactly. So they think that I am some, like, Nostradam. I'm Bill James. Like, I'm pointing out the inefficiencies on the field in ways that they have never understood. And they want to bring me into the front office. They look at me like I'm a wizard when I'm like, that person is going to win or lose. No question about it, you know? Or like, I'm predicting the winner.

[Chris Ryan]

That it's going to be central is going to be her. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, that was. That was pretty much all I had for Top Chef.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great. You have anything for after dark today? Anything? Anything.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I'd love to address what an amazing sports week this has been.

[Andy Greenwald]

I love.

[Chris Ryan]

First of all, this will probably be going up by the time this goes up. I think the Sixers will. Will be playing Game 6 in Philadelphia against the Celtics. But I just want to talk to you about hockey.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's me with a rake. I'm going to watch this game, and I know it's going to happen.

[Chris Ryan]

I am not. I have to go to a dinner. I can't get out of it, and maybe I don't even want to get out of it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Are you going to be. Are you going to be eyeing your phone?

[Chris Ryan]

I try not to do that.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's good.

[Chris Ryan]

But I wanted to know how you felt about The Flyers overtime 1 Nothing win over the Penguins in the NHL Stanley Pot. Because you never commented on the 37 text messages that me and Zach sent last night on.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, I was knee deep in my rewatch of Widow's Bay. Don't regret it. I did respond to you with a share from. 4 minutes, 14 seconds. Clip of the young Lean video. So I was in my bag. You know what I mean? I felt fine. I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you watch the highlight?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, because I don't want to experience fomo.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think I've made. I've made a decision. I'm gonna stick with it. I did feel like Zach was putting on a little bit thick with his text saying, oh, my God, I can't believe hockey is like this. I've never felt so alive. Like, I thought, like, I felt like Gary Bettman was, like, paying him a little bit some spare loonies to influence you just to be like, maybe he's texting that to a lot of people. Yeah. I don't know. He works for a culture magazine. Maybe he's, you know, setting the tone.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought it was great. It was. And it's just been an electric week when it comes to athletics.

[Andy Greenwald]

So the. I mean, it's like soccer in the sense that, like, this, like, sudden death feeling of, like, oh, my God, anything can happen in this moment. When the improbable happened and the Flyers won, what sort of. How would you characterize the noise that came from your body and how did you behave? Was it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, let's fucking go.

[Andy Greenwald]

You went low.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The truth is, these moments reveal, and I tend to go real high in those moments. I don't think I do well, like, when good things happen in sports and the true spirit comes out.

[Chris Ryan]

That was a heck of a slap shot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Touchdown, fellas. Yeah, like, I. But you. You went.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you guys want to get some light beer?

[Andy Greenwald]

Gosh, 2.5% is my limit. Yeah. It's not awesome. It's not awesome. I'm. I'm impressed that, you know.

[Chris Ryan]

You got anything for me for After

[Andy Greenwald]

Dark character is revealed in those moments. No, no, I'm not. I'm not prepared. Okay. You got me watching Resident Evil trailers. You know, like, I'm just. I'm kind of on your street today. I'll see what I can do.

[Chris Ryan]

We're going to be back on Monday. We're going to be talking about euphoria. We're going to be talking about culture. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think probably culture. Here's a question for you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Big movie this weekend coming out. Devil Wears Prada 2.

[Chris Ryan]

I've seen Devil Wears Prada 1. I can't say.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, it's the most rewatchable movie of the century, from what I understand.

[Chris Ryan]

I like that movie.

[Andy Greenwald]

Good movie.

[Chris Ryan]

I like Emily Blunt in that movie. I wasn't. The story needs to go on, but why not? You know, I'll eventually see it. It's not a first weekender for me. I have to go see Hokum this weekend with Adam Scott. Oh, that isn't a horror movie set in an Irish hotel.

[Andy Greenwald]

A lot of things that interest you. This is a big movie in my household. This is a devil wears Prada 2. Yes. My children are very, very, very Eager to have. Because.

[Chris Ryan]

Have they seen the first one?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, they just love fashion. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's a. Like if I'm not trying to tell. I'm not trying to tell Hollywood what to do, but like if you want to really engage with specifically my children, 11 things I hate about you would be a billion dollar box office hit judging by the continued enthusiasm for that.

[Chris Ryan]

So if they just, if they just like remade it or do you think like if they revisited some of.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know, I just mean like the, Maybe this is a conversation for, for, for the big picture or something because like the, the passion, the, the selective passion that my daughters have for the few movies that they like is so intense and not really because they have those options. They, I think it has limited their interest in checking for new things. You know, like why, why go see that when we could just.

[Chris Ryan]

So why go see the Christophers when you can just watch Devil Wears Prada

[Andy Greenwald]

one again or Clueless again. But this is a. There's a big 12 months of Tom Holland content coming. So that's gonna do numbers like the Odyssey. Well, my older daughter loves three things in this world. Greek mythology, Tom Holland and Zendaya. So yeah, we're gonna be there. Now do you think this is for Afterdog? Maybe this is for the future, for the summer. Maybe we should have an episode where uncle Chris makes his. Uncle Chris explains Christopher Nolan to a 13 year old.

[Chris Ryan]

Your mind is the scene of the crime.

[Andy Greenwald]

She'll be coming in cold to his particular aesthetic vision.

[Chris Ryan]

Should we do it as Bane? Yeah, I'll give it some thought.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks to Kai and Kaya for producing today and we will be back on Monday, everybody have a great weekend.