‘Wonder Man’ Co-Creator on the Show’s Origins, Near Cancellation, and the Status of the ‘Community’ Movie. Plus, ‘The Pitt’ S2E8.

Summary

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The Watch (The Ringer)

Episode: ‘Wonder Man’ Co-Creator on the Show’s Origins, Near Cancellation, and the Status of the ‘Community’ Movie. Plus, ‘The Pitt’ S2E8.
Hosts: Chris Ryan & Andy Greenwald
Guest: Andrew Guest (Co-creator, Wonder Man)
Release Date: February 27, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald begin with a deep dive into the current TV industry shake-ups (notably, the Paramount-Warner Bros-Netflix saga) before reviewing S2E8 of The Pitt. They then host Andrew Guest—co-creator of Marvel’s Wonder Man and a writer on Community—for an illuminating conversation on crafting Wonder Man in today’s Marvel ecosystem, the project’s near-cancellation, and a candid update on the Community movie.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Industry News: Warner Bros–Paramount–Netflix Bidding War

• Media Consolidation & Frustration (05:04)
  • Chris and Andy riff on the “love triangle” among Warner, Paramount, and Netflix, lamenting endless corporate maneuvering.
  • Andy: "The story is despicable. The entire thing is gross, loathsome, and awful. And I wish it would all go away." (06:11)
• Sarcastic takes on Tech & Antitrust (07:08–09:20)
  • The hosts mock the political and regulatory distractions behind the merger.
  • Chris: “The whole idea that Netflix...was the extinction level event, and now it’s the only thing that will save us from state-run media.” (08:54)
  • Andy, sarcastically to Republican AGs: “You are really looking out for your constituents. And we at Amazon Prime’s half of The Watch appreciate it.” (09:20)

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Review: The Pitt Season 2, Episode 8

Recapping the Approach

• Structural Shifts and Time (12:17–14:27)
  • This season experiments with pacing, focusing deeply on just two patient cases, moving away from the show’s signature “one hour in the shift” structure.
  • Chris: “I really love this show. This show is one of the most, like, empathetic depictions of human beings. Everybody is given dignity in their own way.” (11:46)
  • Hosts note how changing to “analog” charting post-cyberattack heightens tension and error risk.
• Messing with Temporal Structure
  • Andy: “…there have been moments this season where they’ve asked what time it is and a character says it’s 12:30, but it doesn’t line up with the episode length…maybe they’re playing with multiple 12:30s in different rooms.” (13:37)

Character and Plot Highlights

• Dr. Alhashimi's Contradictory Role (15:22–17:37)
  • Moves from brief humanization back to “tech champion” delivering cringey lines. Her aggressive treatment of a patient with vision loss sparks debate.
  • Andy, playfully: “Our IT department has been given 24 hours to bolster our cyber defenses. Now follow me back to Cybertron.” (15:22)
• Analog System & Medical Mishaps
  • Chaos and comic relief as old-school methods clash with the modern ER’s needs; the return to paperwork, bell clangs, and human memory as “hard drive.”
  • Generative AI previously caused a near-disastrous misdiagnosis; the analog era may bring its own risks.

Case Studies and Thematic Depth

• Ethics of Risky Treatments
  • Chris, asked about a dangerous treatment: “Would I do it if it’s, like, a 5% death chance but otherwise could restore my vision? Yeah... But not everyone would. I think I might be getting towards vision [over hearing].” (18:29–18:53)
  • Andy, on patient’s choice: “The speed with which she is like, give me the magic pill is wild.” (19:30)
• Dignity Amid Terminal Illness (22:20–23:47)
  • Roxy, the terminal cancer patient, gets an emotional sendoff as the ER becomes her interim hospice.
  • Andy: “Built to the thing of, like, can we give her more pain meds? …If in so doing there’s a negative effect, so be it. In some cases, death could be the best outcome. And that’s almost tossed off at the end of the episode. But that’s quite heavy.”
• Artful Misdirection and Maturity
  • The show’s ability to dwell on “benign” outcomes as misdirection for possibly catastrophic medical errors.
  • Chris: “One of the underplayed cards so far in the series is youthful fuckups—it is a teaching hospital.” (24:45)

Memorable/Comic Moments

• Chip Kelly & Sports/Indie Rock References (20:36–22:07)
  • Extended riff on whether ex-football coach Chip Kelly could help with new analog charting—stereolab references fly.
  • Andy: “Welcome, brothers—to all the other 40-something men wearing sports hats and band shirts!” (22:07)
• Grotesque and Absurd Medical Cases
  • Allergic reactions that mimic plague: “Apparently it’s an allergic reaction to cutting limes in the sun. That’s a pretty common place to cut limes.” (25:27–25:49)
• Photographic Memory, Real or Not?
  • Joking about whether such a thing could put them out of a job as podcasters.
  • Chris: “I assure you, we are going to be out of our job.” (29:20)

Performance and Character Praise

• Show’s Core Message
  • Andy: “In the same way The Wire was about systemic rot… this show is about human dignity.” (29:36–30:45)
• Acting Shoutouts
  • Dana’s (Katherine Lanassa) major arc, bathing the body of a rape victim and emotionally supporting others, is highlighted as awards-worthy. (32:36–32:52)
  • Andy, on Dana & Robbie’s evolving partnership: “It ends with Robbie and Dana next to each other, partners in the opposite of crime, saying, how are we gonna get through this mess?" (33:58)

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Feature Interview: Andrew Guest (Wonder Man Co-Creator)

How Wonder Man Got Started

• From Hawkeye to Wonder Man
  • Andrew: “I had worked with Marvel once before on Hawkeye… [which] was representative of a more traditional Marvel experience.” (37:52)
  • Outlines being brought in late on Hawkeye to salvage a troubled project, reflecting Marvel’s “fix it as we go” approach. (38:14–39:17)
• Genesis of Wonder Man
  • Destin Daniel Cretton (co-creator) jokes about a show with Trevor Slattery (“Sir Ben” Kingsley) during Shang Chi filming; two internal Marvel projects merged and Andrew was approached as writer. (40:24–41:05)
  • Marvel had only a loose concept: “They weren’t sure if [Simon Williams] had superpowers… what was his deal?” (41:32)

Shaping the Show’s Tone and Characters

• Defining Simon Williams
  • Inspired by “difficult,” ambitious actors—someone who’d aspire to be Daniel Day-Lewis, not a superhero (43:14).
  • Andrew: “If you gave that—and superpowers—they’re not putting on a cape. They want to win an Oscar. And that’s when it clicked on who Simon was.” (44:06)
• Trevor Slattery / Sir Ben Kingsley’s Involvement
  • Andrew’s daunting first meeting: “He’s had a lot of first meetings… he’s met so many of us dummies… he wanted to know what Ben Kingsley had figured out about [his] backstory, and I wanted that in the show.” (45:13–45:53)

Marvel’s Evolving Approach & Production Struggles

• Marvel Letting the Show Be Weird
  • Despite skepticism, Marvel encouraged the “different” tone, never demanded more action/exposition, even after mixed test screenings. (49:45–51:00)
  • Andrew: “They weren’t saying, can this not be Pacoima?… Even when we tested [and] it didn’t test all that great … they said, ‘We have to market this differently.’” (51:00)
• Production Delays and Survival
  • Shot half the show before strikes halted production, with project at risk multiple times as Marvel/Disney restructured their strategy.
  • Andrew: “We survived by the skin of our teeth several moments where we almost didn’t survive. …We shot exactly half of this project. Oh, God… not a great place to be, and they stuck with it.” (51:46–53:33)
  • Final product delayed, finally airing in 2026 after a year of uncertainty.
• No MCU Crossovers or "Homework"
  • Show was always intended to stand alone. Andrew: “From conception, we were never a part of a larger storytelling… there was an understanding that maybe projects could exist separately.” (54:19)

Highlights & Memorable Moments

• Casting Yahya Abdul-Mateen II as Simon
  • Needed an actor good at acting both well and poorly (for in-show acting); Cretton recommends Yahya after seeing his stage work. (47:23–48:56)
• Specificity and Joy in Storytelling
  • Andy: “There’s a level of specificity in the show that is so refreshing … and it’s also a signal to me as an audience member that people care.” (49:09)
  • Chamoy episode cited as a favorite.
• Dream Sequence and Playful Tone
  • The show avoids “The Boys”-style darkness, even when referencing dark superhero tropes.
  • Andrew: “I wasn’t really interested in taking it to a dark place and no one was pushing that.” (57:50)
• The Ending and Possibilities for More
  • Series ends in a big spot—doesn’t explicitly preclude more if it’s popular.
  • Andrew, teasingly: “There might be energy and movement towards making more.” (59:19)

Quick Status Check: Community Movie

• Almost happened post-strikes, but actor scheduling conflicts put it on pause.
  • Andrew: “We had a line producer, we had a script … and one of our actors’ projects sort of came in conflict.” (60:26)
  • Emphasizes desire to have the full cast together for the right chemistry: “We don’t want to do an Arrested Development Netflix season where we’re shooting some people totally apart.” (61:12)

On Comedy Writers and Marvel

• Reflects on the Russo Brothers bringing ensemble comedy skills to superhero movies.
  • Andy: “More comedy writers doing superhero shows!” (62:04)
  • The “Harmon–Feige connection”—many Community alums have written for the MCU.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with timestamps)

• Andy, on mega-mergers: “The story is despicable. The entire thing is gross, loathsome, and awful. And I wish it would all go away.” (06:11)
• Chris, on industry fear: “Up until six months ago, Netflix was the extinction level event… now it’s the only thing that will save us from state-run media.” (08:54)
• Andy, meta-praising The Pitt: “This show is about human dignity… That is a tough logline.” (30:45)
• Chris, on risky patient care: “I could still podcast. I could hear you, brother… you can film me if I’m blind; but I can’t hear you if I’m deaf.” (18:53–19:12)
• Andrew Guest, on defining Simon Williams: “…they’re not putting on a cape and flying around. They want to be Daniel Day-Lewis. They want to win an Oscar.” (44:06)
• Andrew, on working with Sir Ben Kingsley: “He’s not particularly nice in his first meeting… he’s met so many of us dummies…” (45:13)
• Andrew, on Wonder Man’s tone: “They [Marvel] weren’t saying… there needs to be more action. Even when we tested the first two episodes, and it didn’t test all that great… [they said] we have to market this differently.” (51:00)
• Andrew, on Marvel’s project purges: “We survived by the skin of our teeth several moments where we almost didn’t survive.... We shot exactly half of this project. Oh God.” (53:09)
• Andrew, on MCU homework/crossovers: “From conception, we were never a part of a larger storytelling…maybe projects could exist separately.” (54:19)
• On Community movie status: “We had a line producer, we had a script… and one of our actors’ projects sort of came in conflict.” (60:26)
• Andy, on the influence of comedy on superhero films: “I think all of this is an argument for more comedy writers doing superhero shows.” (62:04)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Industry News/Bidding War Commentary: 04:29–10:59
• The Pitt S2E8 Recap & Discussion: 11:46–35:34
• Interview: Andrew Guest on Wonder Man 36:29–63:59
• Community Movie Update: 60:26–61:58
• Wrapping Up/Meta Reflection: 62:04–64:05

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Tone and Style

• Conversational, irreverent, and candid—hosts riff with in-jokes, metaphors, and sports/music references (“Welcome, brothers, to all the other 40-something men…”)
• Guest Andrew Guest is open and surprisingly frank about Marvel’s internal processes, the difficulty of production, and the unique freedom and risk in making a show like Wonder Man.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode blends hard-nosed industry critique with warm, empathetic TV analysis and an unusually transparent window into the process of modern Marvel TV-making. Highlights include Andy and Chris’s signature banter, a granular breakdown of The Pitt’s distinctive approach, and Andrew Guest’s illuminating, funny, and occasionally anxious account of what it takes to make—and save—a unique superhero comedy in 2026.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Kya]

Hi everyone. Kya here. We recorded this episode prior to news breaking that Netflix would not match Paramount's bid for Warner Brothers. But as you'll hear shortly, in this episode, Chris and Andy's sentiment around this saga remains the same. We'll be back with you Sunday night breaking down the finale of Industry and then later next week with some more thoughts on Paramount becoming the sole bidder for Warner Brothers. Enjoy the episode.

[Chris Ryan]

I need support staff to

[Andrew Guest]

stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, Tongues out, guns out. It's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

We're going to talk about the Pit. We are.

[Chris Ryan]

We also have a special guest today.

[Andy Greenwald]

We do. Whose last name is guest and whose first name is. My first name. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So Andrew Guest, the co creator of Wonder man, is joining Andy and they're going to discuss the show, the series, and also probably a little bit about what we missed when we only did the first three or four episodes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I don't know if you know this, Andrew is the announced co writer of the Community movie.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't know that.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I kind of wonder if I can get a little. The Internet loves community news. I wonder if I can get any. Yes, you should.

[Chris Ryan]

I want you to pivot to being the kind of interviewer who's just like, what's your favorite Star wars movie? Rank them.

[Andrew Guest]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

You can't do this because right before we hit record, I told you I was gonna completely change my interview style to appeal To Vertical Video. Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And it should be junket guy who plays games with movie stars.

[Andy Greenwald]

I feel like I'm not the video game. First of all, that's what I was doing with spin 25 years ago. Like when I took Forell and Chad from the Neptunes to the vintage video game store.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Forel said he was a beast for Galaga. Galaga.

[Chris Ryan]

Galaga? What are you talking about? Galaga?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know what Gulag.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, it's one thing I get the hard G wrong on Ghilain or Ghislaine, but you can't call it Galaga and get away with it.

[Andrew Guest]

I didn't.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just saw your face and sometimes I can't.

[Chris Ryan]

It's Galaga.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Like Galaxy, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, that never occurred to me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that's what I always thought.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought it was just like the Gulag Archipelago. It was based on that. Yeah. You know, I figured, like, that's what they were crushing a little bit behind the curtain stuff, which you love for podcasts, especially on Thursdays. Sometimes you give me a look that is so shocked and worried that I can't tell if I'm mispronouncing something or you think I'm finally just gonna drop the mask and say what I really

[Chris Ryan]

think that Galaga is what the best video game of all time dream. While people can hit us [e-mail] and there's a. Our episode about the season finale of Industry will go up on Sunday night at the conclusion of the Industry episode, which I think might be airing a little bit earlier than usual.

[Andy Greenwald]

It is to make room for the premiere of DTF St. Louis, which from

[Chris Ryan]

Steve Conrad with Jason Bateman and David

[Andy Greenwald]

Harbour, which maybe we'll talk about next week.

[Chris Ryan]

I want people to write in after they watch the finale because we'll do another industry mailbag next Thursday. I believe we also might have some special Shoresy stuff going next Thursday. So there's a lot of things in the works here, but thewatchpotify.com to email us thewatchpod on Instagram to follow us on ig.

[Andy Greenwald]

And we can say Sunday night, finish watch the finale of Industry. Tune into our podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah. And Conrad and Mickey are on the

[Andy Greenwald]

Sunday night interview with the creators, Mickey down and Conrad.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. In England. So they're not gonna be here, but yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think that diminishes their appearance?

[Chris Ryan]

No, it's not at all. I think it makes it even more authentic and industry. It's been announced we'll have one more season. The fifth season will come, and I believe they are currently at work on it. I wanted to do news at the top.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's do news.

[Chris Ryan]

But the news is going to be. The whole world that we cover is kind of becoming one story, which is this Warner Brothers, Paramount, Netflix love triangle.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Why can't we all just come together and make one big cool company? That's what I want to know.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is beautiful. Just like one. One company.

[Chris Ryan]

Take my brain, upload it, make it into soup, and then shoot it into space. And then when I get to space, I dock with a satellite, and in that satellite is all the shows, and I just watch those shows up in space.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to stop you. That is the plot of Body Problem. So once again, China got it first.

[Andrew Guest]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, we all end up there eventually.

[Chris Ryan]

What's that car called? Byd.

[Andy Greenwald]

The car?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, the Chinese car that's just like, this is just going to take over the world soon.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not aware of this.

[Chris Ryan]

You're a big electric. Electric car. The guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but you're a big China guy. G is your guy. So I feel like he's letting you know.

[Chris Ryan]

It's the. It's the. It's the only story. If you were, like, following the trade winds, I guess this is now blowing towards Paramount. They improved their offer, I guess, to $31 a share, I believe. And there are rumblings out of old Washington, D.C. where they've just got a lot of cool stuff happening both internationally and domestically that, you know, fortune favors the bold. And they are. That.

[Andy Greenwald]

That.

[Chris Ryan]

That the White House, that the Department of Justice, that whatever antitrust hurdles that they would have to leap are sort of oriented towards the Ellisons and the Paramount side of things. And that Ted Sarandos from Netflix is going to go visit the White House, make this. Make his case again. I think he's already done this. You tired of the story? Do you think there's anything worth. Worth kind of dissecting here?

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, the story is despicable. The entire thing is gross, loathsome, and awful. And I wish it would all go away. I think that, you know, when we talk about industry, we often talk about how, like, the financial. The specifics of the financials are kind of opaque to us because we're not exactly quants, but also kind of obscure. The deeper emotional cost of things. And so having this conversation, you know, at Paramount, like, just throwing more and more money at this. The same week that Warner Brothers Discovery announces that it lost $250 million in the quarter in which all these bids were made.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sort of underscores the galaxy brain. What is this even anymore of the entire affair? I have to say I am not painting Ted Sarandos as a hero or as some valiant champion of the old studio model that kept people in pensions for decades.

[Andrew Guest]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

But it is a catastrophic outcome. I think if the Ellisons win this purely because they are right wing bullies and the government is lined up to give them whatever they want because they need to shove more things into their already fat gobs. Like, I think that's really chilling. It's really disturbing. I'm not innocent or immune to the way the world actually works. Also, I'm of relatively good health and I run regularly and I rarely go swimming or go above the third floor of buildings. That said, you know, so it's. It sucks. And this is a conversation, this is a gut conversation. This is not me saying it doesn't delay Night of the Seven Kingdoms. You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean that is is interesting to think about the downstream ramifications of a prolonged negotiation. I don't know what kind of deadlines are next or you know, there was like a seven day something kind of interrogation of the Paramount bid that seems to have been completed. I assume Netflix will make a new bid. I don't know how you can continue to just be like we're just going to constantly reopening the bidding. I'm not mad.

[Andy Greenwald]

This will work really well for David Zaslav. I'm sure it will in the sense that he, he is. The thing that he has is now the proxy fight for our politics.

[Chris Ryan]

You bring up a good point about Ted Sarandos though. Obviously there are affiliations between the ringer and Netflix. I suppose it's worth mentioning. It doesn't necessarily mean that in fact I can quite clearly state I've not

[Andy Greenwald]

met Ted Sarandos but also my half of the pot is going to Amazon Prime.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sorry to break news. It's going to be a split screen. You have to tune into both services. But the negotiation would be.

[Chris Ryan]

It would be awesome if those both ran on completely different CMSs.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you just have to like one headphone one and one headphone the other.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm going to later in the week. I want to see what Chris said when I log into Netflix.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, that's why he was laughing.

[Chris Ryan]

But there is like an Anton Chigurh kind of thing going on here where it's like if the rule that you followed you. If the rule that you followed brought you to this. Of what use was the rule? You know, like the whole idea that like Netflix up until six months ago was the extinction level event facing the industry as we know it. And now it's like the only thing that will save us from becoming state run media. North Korean television. Yeah, right. So that's all good. That's pretty cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

It feels great. It all feels great. This is also the week where all of the Republican attorneys general wrote a letter saying that the Netflix merger would be ruinous to their constituents. Which, by the way, guys, let me speak to all the Republicans, Attorney General, Republican Attorneys general. You're crushing it. You're doing great. You are really looking out for your constituents. And we at the Watch appreciate it. I'm sorry, we at Amazon Prime's half of the Watch appreciate it. President G over there might have another opinion.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you want to get into the pit? Was there anything else popping around that you thought was interesting?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think so. Other than the fact that my rewatch of the Office with My Children has reached what I believe to be the zenith of the Office. Do you remember the Michael Scott paper company arc? I do, and I just want to say that, like the joke in which they are doing deliveries themselves at five in the morning because they can't afford a delivery person and the vehicle they got is a disused Korean church van, and every time they stop to deliver paper, an elderly Korean woman gets onto the van and just sits there. That joke has lived rent free in my head for 15 years and it still hits.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you gonna do the entire thing? Oh, do you think that's like a despader country?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I would say I can make. First of all, I can make any pronouncement that I want and I'm not really driving this disused Korean church van. That is family time. So I think they will start to lose interest at a certain point, particularly as the show. I feel like we're building like the show itself was up to the Jim Pam wedding, the Return of Holly, and then I feel like they might be good.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then. Are they too young for 30 Rock?

[Andrew Guest]

Probably.

[Chris Ryan]

I think they're probably too young for 30 Rock. They've done parks.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah, Parks. Big hit.

[Chris Ryan]

They've done Boardwalk Empire.

[Andy Greenwald]

They did, but they didn't like it after Michael Pitt was written off the show.

[Kya]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because he was like. He's like the youth character that they could relate to.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else. But that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from vw, from the other outcasts out there. Take a chance. Make the most of every day, and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then. Because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn [e-mail] well, since we have such a full show today with wonder man stuff with Andrew Guest, why don't we get into the pit?

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's do it.

[Chris Ryan]

I think you could feel maybe if you were listening to us last week, like a. A return to, like, core principles for me, where I was just like, man, I really. I really love this show. This show is one of the most, like, empathetic depictions of human beings. Everybody is given dignity in their own way. This was that, but, like, a little slower. And so I have nothing bad to say about this episode, but it was just like. I do want to note that

[Andy Greenwald]

this

[Chris Ryan]

season seems to be doing some different stuff with time, which obviously, like, the thing that I would probably associate with this show the most is using the one shift, one hour of a shift per episode to make you feel like your heart is racing, to make you feel like the tempo is just, you know, blazing out of control. And certainly during the Pitfest episodes last year, that was the case as they have gone analog on this season as the, you know, the blackout or the cyber attack happened to the other hospitals and that they've shut down, down the pits computer services. I've noted that, like, they then spent, like, more or less two thirds of this episode with two patients.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And it was really. They've really kind of, like, experimented in little ways within the pit way of storytelling. Okay, how long do you want to spend with the overweight gentleman who needs a very specific kind of intubation before he can get a scan? How much do you want to spend with Dana and the rape victim? What can we do? And also keeping tabs on these other people. And I can feel with those other people, the emergence of very big storylines coming to conclusions soon. So I was just curious whether you had noted that, like, if you'd felt that time the way that they're messing with time a little bit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, yes. And in the sense that the crisis is now apparent, I mean, obviously, I think more things, more shoes will drop, but, like, there is still a sense of deliberation that we can still pause we can introduce new characters, spend time with them, treat them in a certain way, educate the audience about how it's going to work at. That can border on the almost Simpsons esque. Like the pharmacist who's just standing in the corner being like, I'm here to help, as if she's been there the whole time. I did notice some things with time. I don't know if I'm accurate about this, but I feel like there have been one or two moments at least that stood out this season where they've asked what time it is and a character has said it's 12:30. But that doesn't align perfectly with the minute length of the episode, which made me think that they might be playing a little bit with multiple 1230s. Like we're in. It's 1230 in rooms so that when they leave, they leave at the same time. It's not sequential.

[Chris Ryan]

Is Robert Downey still Tony Stark in one of those rooms or.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, weirdly, John Slattery is no longer playing older Howard Stark. They are letting Dominic Cooper just play

[Chris Ryan]

the part, I think destined to.

[Andy Greenwald]

I told Kevin, respect Slattery.

[Chris Ryan]

I said to Kevin, I said, kevin,

[Andy Greenwald]

listen, you're making one mistake. Yeah. But overall, this is still my favorite thing to watch every week. And we can get into some of the specifics of the characters. I did want to start with a slight, not a criticism, but I noted with interest that after Dr. Alhashimi's slight humanization last week, she was back this week talking like me on the playground in 1984, saying stuff like, Our IT department has been given 24 hours to bolster our cyber defenses. Now follow me back to Cybertron. Like, genuinely, that is some of the playground.

[Chris Ryan]

Do that. Wearing a Scream mask with Sean in about an hour. I think that her character remains. I. I thought that her aggressive treatment course with the suddenly blind woman was interesting. So there's a couple of things I think we're monitoring.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Like there's the really, really, I wouldn't say overly complicated, but complicated charting system which is now come into play that involves diagrams. Multiple, like, signatures are needed. Copies are needed.

[Andy Greenwald]

Larry and Antoine.

[Chris Ryan]

Larry and Antoine are essentially like the hard drive of the entire medical profession.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's a short order cook bell that's ordering tuna melts or prescriptions.

[Chris Ryan]

Dana's out. Dana's in. Dana's back. Princess is doing this. It just seems like there's. They've already had a situation where I believe Santos's patient was nearly misdiagnosed with something because of the generative AI that they were using. Now that we're back on old hard copy and handwriting faxes and candlelighting, who knows what's gonna happen? Alan Shimi's prescription of this rather intense medication that could kill you but could stop the vision loss is worth keeping an eye on. And then there are some that I think are coming to a kind of a conclusion. Like, I feel like the deposition that Mel is supposed to do feels like it was really more of an opportunity for multiple people to tell Mel that she is a special doctor, you know, is a. Is a special practitioner of medicine.

[Andy Greenwald]

Of all the things. The fact that, like, I mean, I don't. I don't know. I try to avoid dalliances with the legal community whenever possible, but, like, do they really schedule depositions on federal holidays often?

[Chris Ryan]

Not Republicans. Attorney General.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was going to say maybe under this Justice Department they do, but. Yeah, right, right. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

What are. What are some. I mean, I have all the cases.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the Altashimi point I want to make is just like, it's a struggle for me because it's one thing to be like a proponent of generative AI in the workplace and then another thing to be like, standing for the IT department's bulwark defenses. Like, relax, you know, you don't. Are you paid for by big Tech? Like, I don't understand why she's rooting for only the computer systems on all sides of it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I think she's also doing some of the things that Robby used to tout his own toot his own horn about, which is like this personal investment in doctors. She's like, talking with Mohan about where she might want to do.

[Andy Greenwald]

She does at that moment. That's true.

[Chris Ryan]

I think she's been much more. With the exception of her, like, kind of passing comment to Santos. They completely spun her out about like, you got to do your paperwork, you're going to have to redo your year. And now Santos is like, well, I'm fuck dead then.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's how I respond.

[Chris Ryan]

I think Alashima has done a good job kind of connecting with both patients and doctors as well as bringing about Claude in the workplace.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, exactly. That's her. Let me introduce you to my colleague, Dr. Claude. Dr. Claude. Just a rumor.

[Chris Ryan]

That is like a Philip K. Dick novel.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

Do you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I gotta ask you about the treatment that she recommends for the eye stroke.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, would I do it if it was like. It could. It's like a 5% death chance. But otherwise you can get your eyes back? Yeah, I've seen a lot of movies you could say I've seen. I've seen them all.

[Andy Greenwald]

You've rewatched them as well?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, like, I was rewatching Scream, and I was like, I don't really know if I need to watch Scream again in my life. I probably will in like a year or two. But I was thinking about this the other day. Vision or hearing? I think I. I think I might be getting towards vision.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like you'd be okay losing it?

[Andrew Guest]

Well.

[Chris Ryan]

Cause I could still podcast. I could hear you, brother. You know what I mean?

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow, this is an incredible take.

[Chris Ryan]

First of all, the blind podcaster.

[Andy Greenwald]

Don't tell Ted. Ted Sarandos this because you're basically saying that it's a audio medium only.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I'm just saying you can film me if I'm blind.

[Andy Greenwald]

True.

[Chris Ryan]

But I can't hear you if I'm deaf.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow. So you're willing to sacrifice your peepers just for your pal? Yeah, Just to keep this going. That's beautiful. That's not the choice this woman has. This woman has a choice between reduced vision in one of two eyes.

[Kya]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or death and no.

[Chris Ryan]

But it's not percentages wise. It's not the same thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

The speed with which she is like, give me the magic pill is wild. I. The only thing I would do quickly in that moment is start googling eye patches because I'm not taking the meds. Like, it's fine. You could look pretty cool with an eye patch. You know, you can work it. That can be your whole thing. Like that guy you like, the representative, Dan Crenshaw. That's his whole thing, you know, Eyepatch.

[Andrew Guest]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Some people might not know that's a joke. And they might think I am supportive of Dan Crenshaw.

[Andy Greenwald]

What does he ever do to you? He's just fighting for his constituents. Do you know what I mean? Like that?

[Chris Ryan]

I do. I mean, I honestly think that when you're. I think it's like they're just being straight with you. Look, these are the numbers.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but she was wild. She's reckless.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, she wants to be able to see.

[Andy Greenwald]

You can see with one eye.

[Chris Ryan]

It's really hard.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is it?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I got a weak eye, and if I like, this one's not as good. If I lost vision in this eye, I might as well lose both of them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wouldn't the other one become stronger?

[Chris Ryan]

No, that's. You're not a bat.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm Daredevil. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I did have a Question about the new analog system that they are using. Do you think this would have been an opportunity for the currently unemployed offensive football genius Chip Kelly to bring back the showing pictures of like Chuck Norris and Bugs Bunny on the sidelines?

[Andy Greenwald]

I remember that, remember that when he

[Chris Ryan]

was coaching Mike Vic. And it would just be like, it's Joel McHale. And it would be like, ah, yes. Sweet, bright.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think first of all, it's really nice the way you are pushing this podcast towards the advocacy of total employment that you want anyone who recently lost their jobs due to AI. Due to AI or to just not really being good anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

I just think he's been misused.

[Andy Greenwald]

Chip Kell, you still believe in Chip?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I think he's a revolutionary.

[Andy Greenwald]

You, you were. You've never been more all in than you were in 2018.

[Chris Ryan]

In some ways, like none of these Super Bowls matter because they didn't come with Chip.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought you were going to make

[Chris Ryan]

the comment the moment the Washington Philly game. Mike Vick.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Chip. Ball unleashed.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is the greatest 27 minutes of my life is watching Michael Vick against Washington going full Chip.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you every year mark the anniversary of that day by holding up a placard of some carrots.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And birthday cake.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to get away from the pit talking about it.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm really interested that you went to Chip Kelly as an analog hero as opposed to like the dude from Stereo Lab or something that you thought there would be an opportunity.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm sure our listeners would actually. You know what? Chip Kelly and Stereo Lab probably lands about exactly the same for our listeners.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would just like to turn to all the other 40 something men wearing sports hat and band shirt and say, welcome, brothers.

[Chris Ryan]

And I do mean 7,000 people in

[Andy Greenwald]

the world to 47,047 year olds.

[Chris Ryan]

And Leticia Sadie is.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is perfect.

[Chris Ryan]

I wanted to talk a little bit about Roxy, who is the terminal cancer patient. Her parents show up, parents show up. John Getz is the father. Great character actor, has appeared in several Fincher films. This is obviously building up to something very, I think, emotionally cathartic and momentous, at least in my estimation. It seems like they are allowing the ER to be used as a kind of hospice center for the end of this woman's life while they wait for her room upstairs.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Any thoughts about this storyline and how they're kind of playing it out?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I thought what was interesting actually was the way the most definitive puzzle piece of the story was delivered almost casually by Robbie, all of this was building to. I think it's clear this is a dignity of dying right to die hospice care type scenario. And the pit to comment on it with its usual, you know, sort of compassion and gravitas, but it built to the thing of like, can we give her more pain meds? And Robbie suggesting. I wrote the word down, but I don't have it right in front of me about the contradiction of doctoral. Something basically like, yes, it's like the

[Chris Ryan]

paradox of effect or something like that. Or I can't remember what it is,

[Andy Greenwald]

but it's like doctorate double effect. We treat pain. And if in so doing there's a negative effect, so be it. In some cases, death could be the best outcome. And that's almost tossed off at the end of the episode. But that's quite heavy.

[Chris Ryan]

Quite.

[Andy Greenwald]

And, yeah, I mean, they don't. Going back to your first point about time, one of the more interesting things about the show is what it pays attention to and for how long it pays attention. And they're just such experts at deploying that attention so that. That we leave the apparently simple resolution of the ASL patients storyline, which, by the way. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Seems she essentially is having, like a full body meltdown because she looks at her computer screen at the wrong angle.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Welcome to WFH life. But my point being the amount of time spent on that for that seemingly benign outcome made me think that. And the way that she reacted to the pain shot made me think that, oh, my God, there's more to it. Santos is messing up. Because one of the underplayed cards so far in the series is youthful fuckups. It is a teaching hospital.

[Chris Ryan]

Youthful fuck ups is also people being stretched too thin and doing these things in extraordinarily difficult circumstances, which you're right, there is a little bit of, like, every doctor Saif Langdon is pretty much, like, doing their best all the time

[Andy Greenwald]

as batting a thousand. So I thought that the introduction of the Doubt is always gonna exist. And it was well played in that scene. And we're paying. And in an episode where we are spending as much time with that patient as we are with Roxy, it's telling us something. And it's also doing some artful misdirection in terms of, like, inevitably someone's gonna screw up. I thought it was played really well in this episode with the guy who Giovatti and Ogilvy thought had the bubonic plague, but in fact had something that. It was quite terrifying.

[Chris Ryan]

This is not something I knew I needed to worry about. No, this man has insane blisters all over his body. All over all of his body.

[Andrew Guest]

And.

[Chris Ryan]

And they are like, seriously considering that it could be, you know, some real 12th century shit happening to him. And apparently it's an allergic reaction to cutting limes in the sun. That's a pretty common place to cut limes. You, you're out the bbq.

[Andy Greenwald]

People don't know this about you. You live every summer like you're Spuds McKenzie. You are. You are out there, you're partying, you're pouring drinks, you're kind of a dog.

[Chris Ryan]

Me and the Republican attorneys, we're all just out there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Fellas, who's our enemy this week? Is it the immigrants or is it Sharia law? Yeah. Anyway, the. Yeah, so that was appalling. But, but, but again, to the credit of the show, everything is deployed with some intention. It is a, oh, wow, gross. Didn't know about that. It is a, oh, are these student doctors gonna fuck up? And it is also a kind of a no. This one, you're safe in this one. It's just a quick resolution, but the big one's coming.

[Chris Ryan]

Photographic memories. Have you ever met one, Met somebody who has one? In this episode, Joy, who I believe at the end of last episode is like, I have a photographic memory, so I remember the boy.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it's this episode, because this episode begins with Joy. Whitaker says, I have a picture. And it's like the pictures I would take of a cat, right? Where it's like, this is a wonderful image and it's just blur.

[Chris Ryan]

Joy, from memory, recites the entire board and no one in it. Of all the things where you're like, oh, I wonder if that's a screw up. Like, I don't think Joyce screwed up at all. No, I've never met anybody who's like, I have a photographic memory. I can just do it.

[Andy Greenwald]

You never met Chip Kelly?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it wasn't photographic. It was. It was purely creative.

[Andy Greenwald]

Image based and creativity. No, I don't. Is that real?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I. I've heard about, like, Kieran Culkin can, like, look at the page once and do the entire scene.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, because he makes it up.

[Chris Ryan]

Be that as it may, he's just

[Andy Greenwald]

like, what the fuck, man? Just fucking. Fuck. Just like. It was actually.

[Andrew Guest]

We're doing Shakespeare, bro.

[Chris Ryan]

It's Hamlet. Yeah, I just. It's interesting to see, I guess. I'm sure that there are people who are really like, I can look at something and it is seared into memory. I have a hard time remembering the patients names from episodes of the Pit that I watched last night.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's lift up the fact I do

[Chris Ryan]

remember almost every word to illmatic, though.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it's like, okay, you're fine. So you are Joy for your joy. Yeah. I was going to say we should do more to. This show is lifting up members of the photographic memory community. You know, and I think that's beautiful. Their stories have gone untold, but remembered for far too long.

[Chris Ryan]

Any other cases that you're. We have blisters.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do photographic memories work? Sorry, I've got to focus now. Do they work? Photographic memory suggests that she sees something, and it's as if a photograph was taken in her mind. If it's not just photograph. If you have, like a videographic memory and you remember everything you've ever seen.

[Chris Ryan]

I've never more wanted to be on Rogan and be like, jamie, pull that up. What's photographic memory really? Do you know what I mean? I have no idea. Is it like she glanced at it and it's in her brain?

[Andy Greenwald]

Right. Or did she.

[Chris Ryan]

She think about it, remember it and now. But isn't it isn't flying out the way. Because the plot of this show sometimes does.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because, respectfully, I remember nothing from most of everything we've ever watched. At this point, it is just Swiss cheese.

[Chris Ryan]

I had this issue the other day when somebody was asking me about Fargo's season one and two, and I was like, I know who is on it. I have no memory of one.

[Andy Greenwald]

I can do better with those. I think Ciaran Culkin was, I believe, in the beginning of season two. Wasn't he?

[Chris Ryan]

Was he? Are you serious?

[Andrew Guest]

Hold on.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think he was.

[Chris Ryan]

This is good stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I think this is good. Yeah, he was. Okay, well, that's the end of today's. I guess. Sorry. All this was to say we would

[Chris Ryan]

be working through it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. We would be put out of a job if there was a videographic job.

[Chris Ryan]

I assure you, we are going to be out of our job.

[Andy Greenwald]

Welcome to our new host, Claude. Claude, what did you think of Fargo season?

[Chris Ryan]

Culkin was mesmerizing as Ry Gerhardt. Annie, the overweight gentleman.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, right. So this is what I want to talk about.

[Chris Ryan]

This is the sort of main event.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I. It's hard to pivot from AI Claude doing Kieran Culkin jokes about Fargo season two. But, you know, that's the. This is the. This is the medium we've chosen. It's an imperfect medium, and we are imperfect vessels. I was blown away by this Storyline, both for the way that it was presented, but again, just the reinforcement of what this show is about and what it does and what makes it special. Because in the same way that the Wire was about systemic rot, and Mad Men and Sopranos in varying degrees, are about, like, male ambition in the modern world, this show is about human dignity. And that is a tough logline. There's a reason why a lot of shows or movies don't dwell on it. Because it's a little bit soft or it's a little bit aspirational, or it's a little bit fairy tale almost and lacks some of the necessary, you know, cynicism or jadedness or wit or drama or whatever. The medical drama is the right place for this. And I found it very moving to have that. I find it very moving to have it reinforced week to week, both within the artistic successes of the show and in the world that we live in.

[Chris Ryan]

I think they're doing a really good job. Where the patients are gonna come and go by necessity. How the doctors and the students interact with those patients are the places where the characters really come out. And you can, you can knock the pit for its moments of saying, like, well, do you know that nurses are attacked at 3%, like, higher rates than anyone else in any other job in this country? It's like, yeah, like, there's going to be exposition dumps. But the real thing to watch for is like, Ogilvy initially being flippant about this guy, but then obviously betraying some of his own kind of the way he thinks about the world. To be like, I'm only asking these questions because I actually know where he needs to go to get the right treatment, you know, like, and Ogilvy is like, I, I, they're sort of moving his character around. They've sort of moved Joy's character around. And I think, yeah, even, even Robbie's somewhat more like, I'm trying to punch the clock here. Day. You can tell he's relating to patients in a different way. Slightly more frustrated, a few, few less. Like, let's go sit in the family room and have a long talk about who you are and what's going on. And yeah, I think this season is distinctive from the first season in some really great ways. In that sense, do you, where is

[Andy Greenwald]

your personal limit for, like, were you more upset at the implication that Abbott was inserting his fingers to mid digit up this man's nose and down his trachea? Or when the woman's tongue is pulled out and sutured tongue Was fine. You're cool with that?

[Chris Ryan]

I thought so, yeah. Abbott. I mean, anything Abbott does, I'm cool with. He could do it to you just

[Andy Greenwald]

show up in that camo and you're like, open up. No problem. In a way, it was kind of a reset because Dana was a little bit off board.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I guess we should talk about that. This is an extraordinary two episode arc. She's gonna win another Emmy.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just a billion percent beautiful. That moment when she's like, I'm really glad you were here today. Like the way the camera, the camera loves her for good reason. She is an exceptional actor for the screen.

[Kya]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And you've got a very beloved, talented performer. But the first season was her almost overachieving given the material getting punched aside. I think that this was very much a knowing kind of like we want to give her something to do individually this season. And her bathing the body of Louis and being a sane nurse for the rape victim has been quite a run of episodes for Catherine. One, NASA.

[Andy Greenwald]

And again, the way that a show this nimble can be responsive in real time to audience engagement with it. So this season is being broken, written and shot. While the first season is having this incredible effect and going under victory lap and Noah Wylie and Katherine Lanassa are winning Emmys, it builds to the essentially the midpoint of the season. This is the eighth episode, I think, and it ends with Robbie and Dana next to each other, partners in the opposite of crime, saying, how are we gonna get through this mess?

[Chris Ryan]

Medicine. Partners in medicine.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Andrew Guest]

Like opposite of crime.

[Andy Greenwald]

I guess that's the Netflix way to do it. How are we going to get through this mess? I was going to ask you. And then here we are, ready to start the second half of the season.

[Chris Ryan]

A little disappointed to hear that Jack's going to ride in the ambulance with that guy and go take a nap. I hope he doesn't take three hours off or something.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wait, who's going where Jack is? Oh, Jack Abbott. Yeah, yeah, he's going. Yeah. Do you feel like it's interesting that like I believe he's main cast this season. He was obviously a big hit last season and they knew they wanted to in the way they always like to slightly zag. They were. Like last season he came in at the end when his shift was supposedly he was there at the beginning when his shift was ending and he's there when his shift is starting again now. He returns as the star of your favorite unmade Michael Mann film and then leaves again for a little bit to come crashing back.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder whether or not the one upside of Paramount buying Warner Brothers would be Y marshals colonial, the pit colon Jack Abbott, colon Casey. Because then we would get Casey from Yellowstone and Jack Abbott together and one's a medic and one's a marshal and they're just driving around Montana and Wyoming and trying to help people.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I make another pitch? So it's Y marshals, the pit colon Jack colon Casey. And it's about Dr. Jack Abbott, SWAT team warrior, emergency surgeon and Casey Bloys, chairman of entertainment for hbo, trying to navigate the new reality in a fractured media landscape.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that one has would probably be the exact same audience.

[Andy Greenwald]

Pick em. They're both gonna be good shows.

[Chris Ryan]

You've got an interview coming up with Andrew Guest, the co creator of Wonder Man. We're gonna be back on Sunday night with our interview with Conrad K and Mickey down, the creators of Industry. As the Industry season finale concludes, you can come and listen to us and watch us talking with Mickey and Conrad and sharing some of our initial thoughts on the finale. I think we'll go deeper next Thursday

[Andy Greenwald]

because that's our Monday show.

[Chris Ryan]

That is our Monday show.

[Andy Greenwald]

What are you gonna do with your day off?

[Chris Ryan]

I think I have to do Sicario live on Netflix.

[Andy Greenwald]

You think you do?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I know. I know I do. Sicario live on netflix at 6pm eastern.

[Andy Greenwald]

Blink twice if you're being included in cr month.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm in cr month. I mean it's, you know, I'm definitely a paid consultant on CR Month.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's not a labor of love.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks to Kaya, Kai, Sarah, thanks to everybody for helping out today. We will be back on Sunday night and then we'll talk to you next Thursday.

[Andy Greenwald]

Happy first day of CR Month. It's going to be a long one. I am very pleased to be joined now by my good friend Andrew Guest, the co creator of the excellent Disney Marvel series Wonder Man. Andrew, welcome to the Watch.

[Andrew Guest]

Thank you for having me, Andy. It's a real pleasure to be here.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you feel like you have been like, were you groomed for this over like 10 years?

[Andrew Guest]

Oh my God, no. I feel this is my first podcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is your first podcast?

[Andrew Guest]

I've never done a podcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

What?

[Andrew Guest]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

People might not know this about you, but you come from the comedy world. You've written for your 30 Rock and Brooklyn 99 and community. The podcast and comedy worlds run very closely together.

[Andrew Guest]

I don't know what it is about me. No one's wanted me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Are we about to find out why

[Andrew Guest]

Maybe this might be the worst interview.

[Andy Greenwald]

He just.

[Andrew Guest]

Oh, my God, am I supposed to be funny in this?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no. This is a very sober reflection.

[Andrew Guest]

Please.

[Andy Greenwald]

Congratulations on Wonder Man.

[Andrew Guest]

Thank you very much.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's excellent. And I guess my first question is how you make it so good. No, genuinely, it's exciting to talk to you about the show, not only because I enjoyed it so much, but because you made something really good in an ecosystem that is challenging and is notoriously opaque to outsiders. So I'm curious about the process and maybe we just start in the most basic place possible, which is how do you, Andrew, end up co creating Wonder man for Marvel with Destin Daniel Cretton?

[Andrew Guest]

So I had worked with Marvel once before on Hawkeye.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, right.

[Andrew Guest]

And that I think was representative of a more traditional what one might think of a experience at Marvel. I got a call. I know Joe Russo from having worked with him many years at Community. He called me on the Sunday before Thanksgiving week of 2020. So it was locked down.

[Andy Greenwald]

He knew you were home?

[Andrew Guest]

He knew I was home. It's the week going into Thanksgiving. Everyone's quiet, everything's quiet. And he called me and he's like, hey, the producer who did all our Marvel movies, Trinh, they need a new head writer on this project they're doing. Are you free in the short term? And I said, sure. And she calls me three minutes later. She says, I'm gonna send you six one hour episodes. I wanna meet tomorrow to talk about it. We start shooting in New York in a week and a half and we wanna rewrite the whole thing. And I said, okay, cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow. Okay. Did you take the turkey out of the oven?

[Andrew Guest]

Yeah. I mean, nobody had Thanksgiving that year.

[Andy Greenwald]

So you were off to new. So you. I didn't go to new season. I didn't even realize how involved you were in Hawkeye. This is. I'm learning as I do the podcast.

[Andrew Guest]

This was. I came in towards the end. I mean, they had had a writer's room. They had rewritten after that writer's room a couple times. I was literally the last call they could make to anybody to try to. And a lot of major set pieces had been committed to. There'd been pre visualizations.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that's what we know about Marvel generally, that that stu is locked in. And then often the work of the writer is to fill in the story.

[Andrew Guest]

It can be in its when things are not working as well. I mean, the thing I will say is that they want to make sure they shoot something and that they actually make it and then I think there is this belief that we can fix it as we go. And that was very much the case with Hawkeye. You know, Hailey's character was written too young. The dynamic between her and Jeremy wasn't there. There was a lot of extra twists and turns that were sort of gumming up the works. And we worked around the clock. And I was very much involved with Trin and Brad Winderbaum, who was not running TV at the time, but was very hands on on this project. And I needed their help as much as they needed mine. And we got through that process. The beginning of Wonder man was very different, and none of the people I'd worked with were involved. But I got a call essentially that they were looking for somebody on this other project. Wonder man started in a unique way for them. It was. Destin was shooting Shang Chi with Sir Ben Kingsley. And I will refer to him as Sir Ben.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would expect that you would the

[Andrew Guest]

rest of this interview. Damn straight.

[Andy Greenwald]

Every time I have it, we have gotten an email from him.

[Andrew Guest]

You will. You'll get an email. And he loved working with Sir Ben. And as a kind of a joke, he turned to his producer on that project, this guy Jonathan Schwartz, and said, what if we did a show where Trevor's character went back to la? And they sort of kicked that around and it was kind of just a bit. And then they made a fake poster and they got excited at the idea and learned, unfortunately, there was a competing project internally at Marvel that Stephen Broussard and Brian Gay were already trying to do a Wonder man series set in Los Angeles. And they're like, we already have this thing. At a certain point, someone was like, maybe it's chocolate and peanut butter. Put your chocolate in the peanut butter. Could it be the same show?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Andrew Guest]

And that's when they started meeting with writers. And so when I had my first meeting, Destin was there. It's Brian, it's Stephen Broussard, it's John. It's a lot more producers than is typical because these were two projects that were merging, and they knew that Trevor was gonna be one of the main characters, and they knew that this other person was gonna be Simon Williams. They weren't sure if he had superpowers, if he was gonna get superpowers. What was his deal?

[Andy Greenwald]

Because people who, you know, the casual fan probably doesn't even know, but even hardcore fans have a hard time putting their arms around Simon Williams. Wonder man, not the strongest, most established bedrock person in the Marvel universe.

[Andrew Guest]

In the comics, he's had A lot of iterations that are rather complex.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's half robot, he's vision related. He's.

[Andrew Guest]

He's been murdered. He's had an industrialist father who helped.

[Andy Greenwald]

We're making him sound like all successful characters. They all have industrialist fathers who've been murdered, but go on.

[Andrew Guest]

They. And unlike Hawkeye or other things I've met with at Marvel, there was not a run of Wonder man comics that they were looking to pull from. They were sort of just open to, like, we want it to be about Hollywood. Like, who is this guy?

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Andrew Guest]

And that was sort of my job after that first meeting was to be like, who the fuck is Simon?

[Andy Greenwald]

So you walked in that meeting and you were like, what I can tell you about Hollywood is writers order Mendocino farms a lot. And they were like, tell us more.

[Andrew Guest]

They all leaned in, essentially.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, because it is. There's inside baseball and then there's like, you can feel the seams outside of how inside you are. And somehow, at least to my mind, you made it very inclusive and not off putting, which can be the case when things are slightly navel gazing. So how did you characterize your Simon Williams? From the beginning, I thought about.

[Andrew Guest]

There had been a profile of a very famous actor who's very talented in the New Yorker. And I had read it and I'd been struck by this person who is maybe more difficult than others to work with and has, you know, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

And he's had a series of successes, if you will.

[Andrew Guest]

He has a run of.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's almost like a succession, if you will.

[Andrew Guest]

You would maybe say that about this person?

[Andy Greenwald]

I would. You wouldn't.

[Andrew Guest]

I'm not gonna say that.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's a strong actor.

[Andrew Guest]

He's very strong. He's a very talented, very strong actor. And I thought. And one of the things about that article, which was fascinating, was that even before this person had made it big, they took themselves very seriously. They had their Prada suit and they were sleeping on the floor of other people's apartments. And I was like, if you gave that. And superpowers, they're not putting on a cape and flying around trying to say they want to be Daniel Day Lewis, they want to win an Oscar. And that's when it sort of clicked on who Simon was. And then it was a sort of. It was sort of problem solving from that point of, like, why are he and Trevor together? What is the sort of the main thrust of this? But, like, once I sort of locked in on the idea that, like, oh, this guy's talented and good but in his own way. And the superpowers are the obstacle and not something that he gives a fuck about. That was a nice one.

[Andy Greenwald]

The twist from the pilot that is so fun and makes you feel like you're in good hands is that you're inclined to root for the person that's presented as your protagonist. And then you watch him completely fuck it up in a way that everyone who conspires to fire him is right. Which is a really fun way to begin. This is all fascinating to me also because maybe with my more pessimistic view of how some of these projects have been put together, I assumed that there was a wonder man project that you were a part of. And then someone, you know, historically, they have. They have executives in the room. Someone was like, you know, we've got a guy who plays an actor. And then you had to, hat in hand, go to, I imagine, a country estate and beg an Oscar winning knight to come hang out in Pacoima. That is not the case.

[Andrew Guest]

That was not the case.

[Andy Greenwald]

That said, how did you bring him into the fold and make him feel excited to be a part of the movie?

[Andrew Guest]

Oh, my God. That was incredibly intimidating. Like, you know, my first meeting, like, Sir Ben was excited to be a part of this project because of Destin. He loved working with Destin. And I had to sort of pitch him what this show was, and that was really scary. And he's not particularly nice in his first meeting like he is.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's had a lot of first meetings.

[Andrew Guest]

He's met so many of us dummies who come here and try to tell him something's gonna be funny and then it's terrible.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Guest]

And it was scary. And I think part of what happened slowly was sort of learning to trust each other and that knowing that I was excited to be working with him and that I would listen, like, he wanted. He knew this character, he'd been doing this guy for 13 years and knew all about Trevor's childhood and what his relationship with his mother was. And I wanted to know what Ben Kingsley had figured out about all that stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sir Ben Kingsley.

[Andrew Guest]

Sir Ben just wanted to be sure

[Andy Greenwald]

we're talking about the right one.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andrew Guest]

Not the other Ben. And the more he talked about it, the more I wanted to put that in the show and ended up in the show.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's incredible in the show. And it is so bizarre and in a way an indictment of and a celebration of the fact that one of our great living actors is giving one of his great late period performances on this Half hour on Disney. It's shocking and awesome and exciting. I also find it really interesting that the creative decision that Shane Black made and whoever else was involved in that Iron Man 3 process, it's one of the weirdest and most bold choices in the decades long run of Marvel in movies to make the Mandarin actually a hack actor midway through the movie. The fact that Marvel has found this to be like a. It's a source of continuing story I think is really. It's hopeful that they made one really weird choice and that's the one that's the gift that keeps giving.

[Andrew Guest]

Yeah, a weird and controversial choice. Sure. There's many people who that's their least favorite thing about that movie. And I'm not here to argue one way or the other, but I do think part of it is a testament to Sir Ben Kingsley's performance that there was something there. And then when Destin was doing Shang Chi and they were reintroducing the real Mandarin into the mcu, it felt like it needed to be addressed. And then I think, much to everyone's delight, that ended up being something that was really fun for everybody involved and. And that's why we got more of it.

[Andy Greenwald]

And so how did you find your wonder man? How did you end up settling on Yaya?

[Andrew Guest]

That was not easy. The casting process at Marvel is complex and a lot of people have a lot of strong opinions. The thing that we always knew. Cause on the page, when I was writing this without knowing who was gonna be this person, I knew that we needed somebody who was really good at acting. I know it sounds stupid to say

[Andy Greenwald]

you walked into Marvel and said that. Yes, Stones on this guy.

[Andrew Guest]

I know, but this character has to act both well and not well in the show. And that is something that is not easy. You know, in fact, acting poorly in a believable way is harder, I think, for actors than acting well. And. And so that was always the main criteria, the guiding principle. And Destin had a relationship with Yahya, and when he saw him in Top Dog, Underdog on Broadway, he said, andrew, you have to go see this. And I went and I was blown away. And I'd already loved him in the Watchmen series. And I was like, can we get him? And when Yaya was interested, then those conversations started happening where he wanted to understand Simon. He wanted to know Simon's backstory, what his relationship with his mother and father was, where they were from. Cause we had said he's first generation. That was sort of interesting to us as like an outsider, you know, this idea. And he's like, well, okay, but where?

[Andy Greenwald]

Where for?

[Andrew Guest]

And then we had to get specific. And in getting specific in those conversations with Yahya, that ended up in the show as well. So, I mean, Sir Ben and Yahya brought a lot to this show, not just in their performances, but in the storytelling.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, there's a level of specificity in the show that is so refreshing and so entertaining. And it's also a signal to me as an audience member that people care, people are paying attention, and you're on location throughout la and also the larger area, Pacoima is mentioned and featured. My favorite moment, maybe in the series, is the Chamoy episode, which is also very specific. But that's where real surprise and real art and joy come from. How did you make that a guiding principle for the creative process? And how did you retain those moments? I imagine the actors, the ones that you're dealing with, gravitate towards those moments, but how did you protect them?

[Andrew Guest]

I mean, they. I didn't have to protect. It was a bizarre experience creatively, in that from the beginning, Marvel's like, we want the show to feel different. And I thought they were full of shit. I thought they were like, yeah, we want the window dressing to look different, but we wanna make a Marvel show. And they were like, no, we really don't. I promise. And I kept being like, I don't believe you. And then I would turn in the script that I turned in for this pilot, and they're like, we like it. And I was like, no, you don't. And they're like, yeah, yeah, when we do. And that was the show they wanted to make. So they. I think for many people at Marvel, this was a chance to do a kind of show and storytelling that they don't normally get to do. And they were excited by that. And there was. As much as there was this rocky road for this show in terms of making it finally out into the public, there were champions from the beginning inside Marvel. They were excited. And they weren't saying, can this not be Pacoima? They were not saying, there needs to be more action. Even when we tested the first two episodes, which we did in front with an audience, and it didn't test all that great because a lot of people were confused by the show. I was like, okay, now they're gonna say, let's change it. And they said, no, we have to market this differently.

[Andy Greenwald]

So what's amazing to me about this is the enthusiasm is one thing, but the realities of the period in which you were Making the show were another. You have made this across multiple eras of Marvel, of Disney, of Hollywood. I think the last time I saw you was just pre strike, maybe, and things were going. Then the strike happened. And, I mean, you shot some of the show three years ago, I believe.

[Andrew Guest]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

During that time, Marvel's entire TV experiment, it felt like judgment was passed on, some of it. And they've turned pages and what they're making and what they're doing. What was that process like of navigating these eras? You know, they can be rooting for a certain type of show, but was there ever a moment when you were like, this might never even get made?

[Andrew Guest]

There were several of those moments, as you know, where not only did I not throw, so I didn't have to navigate any of it. I just held on and hoped and prayed, essentially. It is hard to get anything made at all, as we all know, and Hollywood in general is going through a lot of change. That's really difficult to navigate. And we, by the grace of somebody, story gods, we survived by the skin of our teeth several moments where we almost didn't survive. I can tell you. Like, we were sort of one of the last projects in the door of the previous iteration of the Marvel Disney experiment, where they were saying yes to many things. And I think they're like, we can

[Andy Greenwald]

be anything, which is a nice place to be, until suddenly you can't.

[Andrew Guest]

Exactly. And so there was a period during our writing where many things at Marvel were looked at sort of through a new critical lens of what can we pare down? And we were definitely one of those things that was taken off their. They're bored for a moment there. And the producers who were part of our project fought like hell to convince people this is something worth continuing with. Then when the strikes happened, I think there was some more discussions about, is this a thing we want to stick with?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Andrew Guest]

We shot exactly half of this project. Oh, God. Which is kind of like the worst place to be, and they stuck with it. And then. And then we finished, and people at Marvel really wanted this thing to air earlier, and they were not allowed to have that happen. And they stuck with it, and they finally put it on the streaming service.

[Andy Greenwald]

How has your year been waiting for that to happen?

[Andrew Guest]

It was really hard. I mean, I've been working on something else the last year, but it was not. That was a very difficult meeting. When I learned that it wasn't gonna

[Andy Greenwald]

come out until 2026, that sounded like a very long way away. Was there ever a moment and this could also be. I don't mean to continually frame this as like you versus Evil Empire. Maybe this was a collaborative moment when there was a note, a suggestion, an opportunity to cross paths with the more mainline Marvel universe, both in attempts, whether they felt good creatively or not. There's a little bit of. In the show, a hint of it, but were there other opportunities or suggestions that you had to navigate?

[Andrew Guest]

No, there were not. This was from conception. We were never a part of a larger storytelling. And I think this goes to the fact that even four years ago, there was a desire internally at Marvel to separate some of this stuff and an understanding that there was a lot of storytelling that was alienating to some people to try to stay on top of and that maybe projects could exist separately.

[Andy Greenwald]

Was it fun to wrangle the reality into it? Cause you did get a number of people who are clearly. I would have guessed that these are people who are willing to make fun of themselves in Josh Gad and Joe Pantoliano. And, you know, you also. Honestly, it's the auteur's move. You did the Take a pause, take a breath mid season bottle episode about the doorman. There's a lot of fun being had. And I think fun is something that is hard to quantify in television production, particularly in 2026 or 5 or 4 or 3. How did you maintain it? How did you maintain that spirit?

[Andrew Guest]

I mean, that is a. I mean, I haven't come up in many comedy rooms that sort of in my DNA. I think of like, let's make sure that this is fun. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

For someone.

[Andrew Guest]

For somebody.

[Andy Greenwald]

For Josh Gad, at the least.

[Andrew Guest]

Well, yeah. I mean, that was so. I think one of the things that people don't necessarily know about the execs at Marvel is that they're all big movie fans. I mean, they all went to film school. They all started in little.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm biting my tongue here. Go on.

[Andrew Guest]

Yeah, they all started in little. Well, west of Hollywood. Shitty apartments. So when we were talking about Simon Williams, you know, the look of that, they all had a lot to say because it was personal to them. And when we were casting Joe Pantoliano, that was an opportunity for people to like. We had this incredible list of all these character actors who maybe are not household names, but are darlings to other people who've grown up in the 80s and 90s with movies and TV shows that. And he was obviously the top of that list, but that was just a fun romp for all of us. And I think there was this Relief for all these people who were dealing with literally world stakes in all of their other projects where they're trying to figure out how to get very complicated pipe out about the fate of the world, that this was the opposite of that and we could have fun. And there was a spirit of fun.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's one moment I wanted to ask about specifically in the big audition episode where all the finalists are brought to the home of von Kobach and they're improvising and doing lots of very actor y exercise type things. And Simon is provoked in an improvisation exercise and is so angry, he punches through a man an actor's face, killing him instantly, to the horror of everyone. Yes, this was very reminiscent of the television show the Boys. And I'm not saying you ripped it off. I was like, oh, are they doing this? And then you had the, you know, you had your cake and you ate it too. Because then it's a dream sequence. I wondered if there were any moments when you or in your collaboration with Destin where you felt like the tone of the spirit was wobbling or wavering. Like this could be darker, this could be sillier. Because what I love about the show is that you were consistent. We.

[Andrew Guest]

That's a very good question and one that we never. I wasn't really interested in taking it to a dark place and no one was pushing that. It felt like we all wanted to make the same show. Like there was, you know, we talked about Atlanta or Dave or Barry when we were thinking about this show. And those were very much in. I mean, Barry is a much darker show than we were.

[Andy Greenwald]

Especially as it went on.

[Andrew Guest]

Yeah, as it went on. And that was not really where I want it to go. But that was a scene that there was pushback internally about a dream sequence. They were concerned, like, is that we've seen a lot of dream sequences. And I just had faith that this would be fun. And I think it turned out to be pretty fun. It's one of my favorite moments.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a memorable moment. The series ends in a place that feels really true to the characters. And it's a buddy comedy, it's a relationship story. Did you ever in the many years give thought about, well, if people like this and we have to do more, how are we walking any of this back? Because it ends in a very big place on the Powers perspective.

[Andrew Guest]

Yes, Yes, I have thought about that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Have anyone blinked twice if anyone. No. I mean, I don't want. I know you can't tell me, but it does seem like the reaction has Been positive. And it seems like the. There might be energy and movement towards making more.

[Andrew Guest]

There might be.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great. I'll take that.

[Andrew Guest]

And I remember when we were shooting the finale, Yahya came over to me at a certain point and was like, oh, so Simon can't act anymore?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, that was my takeaway too.

[Andrew Guest]

And I was like, why not? And he's like, because everyone knows he's got superpowers. And I was like, well, the DODC knows he's got superpowers, right? Not everybody.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look at you, Mr. Marvel. The DODC just be like, well, the Sokovia Accords actually allow for him. He could work in Europe. You know, there's different.

[Andrew Guest]

That's exactly right.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's great. And what other octogenarian legends of the screen could you entice next to that?

[Andrew Guest]

Maybe now that we've established it, we could get many more.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's pretty great. Well, I love the show. I have you here. So I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about your other announced project. I don't know if you can talk about it, but people might not know that you were a writer on Community for a long time and that you have been announced quite some time ago as the co writer of the Community movie. And I was just saying to Chris, nothing moves the needle on the Internet like stories about the Community movie. So I wondered if you could give us any update on that.

[Andrew Guest]

We got very close to shooting that, really. We, as the writers strike and actor strikes were ending, all of our cast were available. All of them wanted to do it. We had a line producer, we had a script that we were gonna. In the process of starting to rewrite. And one of our actors projects sort of came in conflict in terms of timing. And I don't want to single that person out because people will shame them. The Community fan base. And please, Community fan base, do not be upset with any of these people.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I guess? No.

[Andrew Guest]

And so it's hard because they're all incredibly talented and very busy. And the thing is, partly because of

[Andy Greenwald]

Communities, you should be.

[Andrew Guest]

Partly because of Community. But we don't want to do sort of a Arrested Development Netflix season where we're shooting some people. Totally, in part, we need the fun and energy of that show, is the chemistry between these people in the same room around a table. And so we have to have them all in the same place at the same time.

[Andy Greenwald]

And from what we know, even anecdotally about how Community was made the first time, there were plenty of reasons to do it. Like the Good Wife, where Juliana Margulies wouldn't be in the same room as her co star. It does sound like, especially as documentaries come out, that there were potentially opportunities to do that the first time around.

[Andrew Guest]

There was some of that done with one particular actor. I mean, yes, occasionally. But the rest of the cast are delightful, all get along great, and we want them in the same place.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think all of this is an argument for more comedy writers doing superhero shows.

[Andrew Guest]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it's really interesting that it came from Joe Russo because I think it's under remembered, if that makes sense. What a seemingly odd choice it was for those guys to direct a Captain America movie when in fact they had been doing action movies with spirit and heart in miniature on Community. And in fact, their ability to wrangle ensembles made them incredibly prepared for what they ended up doing. And that there's a certain way of approaching story that really lends itself from comedy to superhero.

[Andrew Guest]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

The anti Von Kovac, if you will.

[Andrew Guest]

Yes. And you know, there is this big Harmon, Kevin Feige connection. You know, there's many.

[Andy Greenwald]

What is that connection?

[Andrew Guest]

Well, many alums of Harmon projects find their way over into the mcu, but

[Andy Greenwald]

not Dan Harmon himself.

[Andrew Guest]

Dan Harmon has done some work with the MCU very briefly.

[Chris Ryan]

He should.

[Andy Greenwald]

I feel like what they should do is create a pocket universe for him like Secret Wars 2, with not the one that they're actually making, but the Beyonder and the tracksuit from the 80s.

[Andrew Guest]

Oh, my God. Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And he could just play with that.

[Andrew Guest]

Oh, my God.

[Andy Greenwald]

Should we just.

[Andrew Guest]

The problem is Dan has a hard time with schedules.

[Andy Greenwald]

You could say this as a collaborator.

[Andrew Guest]

As a collaborator. Somebody who's worked with him very closely for many years and many hours. Many hours.

[Andy Greenwald]

And not always the predictable working hours,

[Andrew Guest]

not always the normal setting. And Marvel likes to have material and keep moving forward.

[Andy Greenwald]

Banker's hours.

[Andrew Guest]

Banker's hours.

[Andy Greenwald]

I get it. Well, Andrew, congratulations on the show.

[Andrew Guest]

Thank you.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was awesome. And it was such a nice surprise. Not that it was good, but the way in which it was good was so refreshing.

[Andrew Guest]

I really appreciate that.

[Andy Greenwald]

And worth the wait.

[Andrew Guest]

Thank you. Having people who I admire and respect like the show is huge. I mean, that has been one of the rewarding things about having this out. And people seem to really like it and the people who I love love it. And that's really nice.

[Andy Greenwald]

And also me and also Andy. Perfect.

[Chris Ryan]

See, we got you there at the end.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you for making this your first podc.

[Andrew Guest]

Thank you for having me.