You Should Watch ‘The Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins.’ Plus, ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ E2 and ‘Industry’ S4E3.

Summary

The Watch – January 26, 2026 Episode Summary

Overview

In this episode, Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan from The Ringer break down three major TV topics:

• Their enthusiastic discovery of NBC’s new comedy, The Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins
• Their reactions to Episode 2 of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms (Game of Thrones universe)
• In-depth analysis of Industry Season 4, Episode 3

The conversation fluidly mixes sharp critical insight, sharp humor, and cultural references. The hosts open with thoughts on the emotional toll of current events, before diving into the pleasure and escapism of great TV comedy and drama. Their rapport is as effortless as ever, moving from deep dives to inside jokes and self-aware tangents.

---

1. Responding to Real-World Events ([01:35]-[04:49])

• Andy and Chris acknowledge difficult real-world events in Minneapolis, expressing anger, empathy, and the tension of discussing pop culture in disturbing times.
  • Andy: “This weekend was horrifying and disgusting and deeply, deeply unsettling and depressing. … We love the city of Minneapolis… and it’s a tough time to be doing much of anything right now.” [01:35]
  • Chris: “It’s really like taking a drill to your brain to spend your entire weekend engaging with this… I’m as angry as I’ve ever been.” [02:23]
• They note the value of being a “diversion for people,” stress self-care, and caution against viewing entertainment purely as distraction:
  • Chris: “I don’t subscribe to the idea that you can’t do both… I think you can do both, but it would be weird not to make a comment about this at the top.” [04:18]

---

2. Review: The Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins ([04:49]-[14:11])

Show Summary

• NBC’s new comedy (from Robert Carlock & Sam Means), starring Tracy Morgan as a disgraced ex–New York Jet in a comeback doc directed by Daniel Radcliffe.
• The show blends the “third-level” joke density and style of 30 Rock and Kimmy Schmidt, with fast pacing and layers of gags.

Key Praise and Show Dynamics

• Chris (on finding the show): “This was like taking happy pills for me. I really, really, really enjoyed watching this.” [07:41]
• Both hosts marvel at how Carlock and his partners continue to push innovative comedy writing:
  • Andy: “No one writes jokes better than these people. And no one delivers these jokes maybe better than Tracy Morgan.” [07:47]
• On Daniel Radcliffe’s role:
  • Chris: “He looks like he’s having the time of his fucking life.” [11:12]
  • Andy: “If you were Daniel Radcliffe and they were like, hey, you stand in between Bobby Moynihan and Tracy Morgan and Erica Alexander… it’s such a sick gig.” [11:13-11:31]
• The hosts deconstruct inside jokes, sight gags (“He wore Shoes,” “Ling-Ling, don’t eat that!”), and the pleasure of seeing old-school, precision comedy.
• Comparison to 30 Rock:
  • Andy: “This has a higher concept, and that it’s documentary, but then it’s not documentary… but they just know how to do it.” [08:37-09:11]
• Both heavily endorse the show and lament how hard it is to find (“Peacock doesn’t want you to know it exists!”)

Memorable Quote / Moment

• Chris: “Please, please, please go watch this.”
• Andy: “Do we want 10 episodes right away or are we happy to parcel it out?”
  Chris: “I was ready for more.” [08:07-08:15]

Timestamps

• Show intro and setup: [04:49-05:32]
• Daniel Radcliffe and cast: [05:32-08:01]
• Writing and construction: [08:01-09:47]
• Gag breakdowns and authenticity: [09:47-10:08]
• Daniel Radcliffe digression: [10:08-12:41]
• Overall recommendation: [13:35-14:11]

---

3. Review: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, Episode 2 ([14:11]-[27:24])

Episode Structure

• A brisk (33-minute!) episode focusing on Dunk’s journey through a tourney, meeting adversaries, and the arrival of Targaryens.

Key Points & Discussion

• The show is accessible to new viewers (“noobs”), requiring no deep Game of Thrones background but rewarding knowledge of Westeros lore.
  • Andy: “You could watch this show with no knowledge of Westeros or… Game of Thrones and you kinda get it. That’s a remarkable achievement.” [15:54]
• Praise for the tonal “gear” – it’s lighter, funnier, and more tender than previous Thrones content.
  • “There’s a little bit of mystery… romance… menace.” [18:25]
• The thrill that the show sets stakes without grimness:
  • Andy: “The most exciting thing that happens in this episode is tug of war. I really appreciated that.” [18:50]
• Notable take: The absence of dread—unlike prestige predecessors, the show trades tension for character investment.
  • “The dread is not an essential component of contemporary television… it was kind of the special sauce that boosted the last twenty years of this stuff.” [20:45]
• Highlights on cast and characters:
  • “Finn Bennett is apparently a great high-cheekboned asshole,” playing Aryan Brightflame. [15:24]
  • “Daniel Ings… doing an incredible job as Lyonel Baratheon.” [23:09]
• Social commentary sneakily woven into the world:
  • The “Nepo baby” joke, with Dunk encountering the son of a crabber who got ahead through connections. [23:12-23:36]

Memorable Quote

• Andy: “They’ve found a new tonal gear to tell these stories… it’s like, it’s funny, it’s tender… really fabulous and important.” [18:25]
• “Honestly, I yearn for that—like, that’s not a bad baseline, Targaryens. Are we sure?” [15:42]

Timestamps

• Episode introduction and major themes: [14:11-16:54]
• Character breakdown and accessibility: [16:54-18:50]
• Stakes, tone, and casting: [18:50-22:20]
• Societal satire and “Nepo baby” discussion: [23:09-23:52]
• Structural reflections and looking ahead: [26:28-27:00]

---

4. Industry Season 4, Episode 3 Deep Dive ([27:16]-[58:26])

Reorienting the Show

• The hosts marvel at how Industry “soft reboots” itself, skipping over plot mechanics and keeping only the essentials.
  • Andy: “One of the greatest things about Industry is its unwavering commitment to always being the most extra best version of… and just has complete disinterest story-wise in what Mickey and Conrad are not interested in.” [29:47]
  • Example: Rishi—his wife’s death is passed over in favor of sharp present-tense character drama. [32:40-33:16]

Character Integrity and Forward Motion

• Chris: “People are fucked up and do fucked up things.” [39:08]
• On Yasmin’s complex shift back to her old traits:
  • “That whole detour felt shocking for shocking’s sake. … She has been in the past… that whole detour felt emptier in a way.” [36:23]
• On the fragile alliances and unmoored state of key players:
  • “They have grabbed onto each other as pieces of driftwood, as life rafts, and now they are turning the life raft into a speedboat and going into a point unknown.” [44:05]

Industry as Social Critique

• The show’s focus: survival through access to old money, power, and connections—no one’s thriving by pure merit.
  • “The only life raft that all these people are clinging to is entrenched old money and aristocracy… The people in the clubby rooms playing handball do not change.” [44:34]
• Erik and Harper’s central duet:
  • Chris: “The central love story or the central relationship of this television show is Harper and Eric.” [51:14]
  • Andy: “Eric needs to get away from this destructor, this eater of orcs.” [41:07]

Structural Gambits and Risks

• Andy muses on stylistic choices and narrative boldness:
  • “I want to be able to have this conversation… because I don’t want to fall back into a criticism of ‘but I like her, I want her to be better.’ … They fuck up constantly.” [40:22]
  • “They broke it. They intentionally broke it, and now they’re beginning again.” [47:04]
• On narrative risks:
  • “Push the show towards the most interesting, most dangerous places.” [56:19]
  • “It’s the DNA of the show that has allowed it to be successful and to grow exponentially, season to season.” [56:30]
• The “short only play” motif—Harper’s worldview reflected in her investment approach. [57:03-57:43]

Timestamps

• Industry’s narrative reboot: [27:16-31:54]
• Character departures and development: [34:03-39:08]
• Show’s social critique and outsider status: [42:49-44:34]
• Relationship analysis (Harper/Eric): [51:14-52:52]
• Yasmin and Henry, and “Austrian vacation”: [53:23-55:12]
• Narrative approach and the “speedboat”: [55:12-56:30]

---

5. Comic Book Tangent: House of X, Powers of X, and DC’s Absolute Line ([58:26]-[64:13])

• Chris and Andy close with a meta-tangent about recent comic book innovations and publishing successes, advocating for Jonathan Hickman’s game-changing Marvel work and DC’s new “Absolute” line.
  • Andy: “He [Hickman] kind of industried it in the sense of ‘I am going to profoundly and forever change, or so we hope, the status quo.’” [59:46]
  • “DC basically did another corporate wide ‘fuck it’… with the very—truly the best of the best—creators.” [62:39]
• The segment serves as both a palette cleanser and a continuation of the industry/media analysis thread.

---

Selected Notable Quotes

• Andy on TV as Diversion ([01:35]):
  “There’s value in talking about art and entertainment and being a diversion for people.”

• Chris on Reggie Dinkins ([07:41]):
  “This was like taking, like, happy pills for me. I really, really, really enjoyed watching this.”

• Andy on A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms ([18:25]):
  “They have found a new tonal gear to tell these stories… it’s funny, it’s tender… really fabulous and important.”

• Chris on Industry ([39:08]):
  “…the reason why this is one of my favorite shows of all time is because people are fucked up and do fucked up things.”

• Andy on Character Survival ([44:34]):
  “The only life raft that all these people are clinging to is entrenched old money and aristocracy… The people in the clubby rooms… do not change.”

---

Segment Timestamps (Selected)

• [04:49] — The Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins: Full Review and Joy
• [14:11] — A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms S1E2: Surprising Tone, Stakes, and Accessibility
• [27:16] — Industry S4E3: Narrative Gambits, Character Breakdowns, and Social Critique
• [58:26] — House of X, Comics Industry Digression

---

Final Thoughts

The episode weaves together emotional clarity, critical depth, and pop culture celebration. Andy and Chris’s chemistry allows them to pivot from very real world empathy to the weird healing power of new favorite comedies and the existential drama of prestige TV. Their blend of laugh-out-loud asides, literary references, and social critique make this a characteristically rich episode for listeners seeking both a guide to television’s best and a broader cultural conversation.

Transcript

[A]

Pain Support staff to clear the room.

[B]

Stand up and walk now.

[A]

Hello, and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, a man who knows books are brain movies. It's Andy Greenwald.

[B]

Are you referring to our new favorite show?

[A]

Yes. The Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins, which we are going to be discussing today, as well as Industry Episode 3, Season 4, and Night of the Seven Kingdoms, Episode 2, Season 1. Greenwald, you can hit us up if you're listening. The watchpotify.com to send us fan mail. It's the only kind of mail I'm interested in. You can follow us on IG@thewatchpod, and you can watch us on YouTube @ringerdash TV. You can also watch us on Spotify, where I hope you listen to us. You look beautiful. Your hair looks great.

[B]

You're. You're so nice to me, but I think you look good.

[A]

Thanks, man.

[B]

I like that sweater.

[A]

I got it at Uniqlo. No free ads.

[B]

But isn't. So you're implying that you were paid?

[A]

No, I'm saying that's, like. That's just what I did, is I bought a sweater at Uniqlo. I was getting other stuff, and I was like, I don't. I like the look of that.

[B]

And they got a free ad.

[A]

It's more of, like, a document of my existence. You know, When Phoebe's out of town, life gets pretty small, you know? Okay, look, man, we're going to discuss shorting stocks and tall nights, but we should talk a little bit about this weekend.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I don't. I always struggle when the fact that, like, our job is to talk about TV shows, and it's. We're incredibly lucky to have this job. And I think it's. There's value in talking about art and entertainment and being a diversion for people. But often we start the podcast by talking about how we're doing and how the weekend was. And we are Americans living in America in 2026. And this weekend was horrifying and disgusting and deeply, deeply unsettling and depressing. I don't know if we have anything to add, really, to the larger discourse other than that we are watching. We are living through this. We are. I can say we like. We. We love the city of Minneapolis in the state of Minnesota, and we are thinking of them. And it's a tough time to be doing much of anything right now.

[A]

It's really like taking a drill to your brain to spend Your entire weekend engaging with this. But that's what I did. I'm as angry as I've ever been. And the second administration is going worse than I could possibly have imagined, even if that was possible. And I'll just say that there are plenty of examples of, you know, things I've read about or things I've seen about people from Minneapolis standing up for each other and showing up for each other, that are the best qualities of Americans.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

So that's. I guess I'll leave it at that. We can get into, like, talking about regular TV stuff. I mean, like, did you spend, like, were you on the news, like, all weekend or. No.

[B]

I mean, I think I had an experience that a lot of listeners, a lot of people probably had, which is the slow motion drip, drip, horror of being alerted to the news on Saturday, following the news on Saturday, while also attempting to parent and trying to keep some world separate.

[A]

I was tempting to parent, too, but people are like, we're good. These aren't your kids.

[B]

I've always thought you to be a warm presence at the parks of Highland park, the playgrounds, and, you know, if.

[A]

You want to come out of your route a little faster there, just so you know, I know it's none of.

[B]

My business, so you're parenting at high school football practice. You have such an idyllic view of what this would be like. 0 to 16, no involvement. Suddenly you're like Jim Bob Cooter just drawing up the office.

[A]

And then Coach Taylor shows up.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. And I think that people even choosing to listen to this pod or rightfully choosing not to listen to this pod or watch these TV shows right now, people should do what feels best for them to take care of themselves as well, because we all have to be in this for a while, and there's no one healthy way to do anything, I think.

[A]

I mean, I personally do not subscribe to the idea that you can't do both and that, like, you know, to watch Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is somehow participating in the sort of painkiller that they're administering to you so that you don't keep your eyes open to other things. I think you can do both, but I think it would just be weird not to make a comment about this at the top of the podcast. Where do you want to start? Do you want to start with industry? You want to start with Knight of the Seven Kingdoms? You want to start with a little new discovery that we made?

[B]

Maybe we should. For fun.

[A]

Yeah, let's do that because I think.

[B]

That for both of us, what the hell? This was a little bit of a tonic.

[A]

And guess what? It's our podcast. We can do what we want. So for now, rather than starting with the Game of Thrones franchise or one of our most beloved series of the last five or six years in industry, let's start with a show that people Peacock doesn't seem to want to let you know it exists.

[B]

Well, it is not a Peacock show.

[A]

I know it's on NBC.

[B]

It is an NBC original comedy show that Peacock show up on Peacock.

[A]

I know what I watch, brother.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

And it's a lot of 30 rock fix the algo. I had to search for the Fallen Rise of Reggie Dinkins multiple times because I watched this first episode a couple of times because it felt real good to watch it.

[B]

It really does.

[A]

This is the new show from Robert Carlock, who people may know that name from 30 Rock. And did he work on Kimmy Schmidt's.

[B]

He is Tina Fey's longtime writing and producing partner. So he was her right hand man and co writer form 30 Rock for Kimmy Schmidt for EP on Girls 5 Eva. They work together.

[A]

Okay. And Sam Means, also co creator of this series which is stars Tracy Morgan as a disgraced ex New York jet who is trying to make a comeback in terms of like his public perception not on the field via a puff piece sports documentary directed by Daniel Radcliffe who plays a guy named Arthur Tobin. Arthur Tobin, a documentarian from the University.

[B]

Of Maryland School of Documentary Anime and Pornography I believe is his full title. And just the little things like if you miss the joke creation of 30 Rock, his posters that he brought with him, some of the I'm sorry because.

[A]

If you start laughing you just like wind up telling the jokes again.

[B]

What are some of the movies he's made? One is like called He Wore Shoes and it was like ling Ling, don't eat that or something about the Panda. Like it's immaculate.

[A]

Yeah, man, it's, it's, it's got that 30 rock pace and that 30 rock.

[B]

Like depth of joke queen Eric Alexander from Living Single plays Reggie's ex wife, but forever business partner, current agent. Yeah, she's incredible. And secret weapon. Bobby Moynihan who is always funny in everything, plays Dusty, I believe, who is.

[A]

A backup kicker for the jets when Reggie was there and is Reggie's friend regardless of race.

[B]

And then Dusty does the Wakanda salute.

[A]

Look man, I know that 30 Rock has had multiple life cycles as a rewatch and Kimmy Schmidt as well. And people know, like, the kind of comic sensibility that's going to be included in the show. But I just, I think there were some ads during football. Like, it's not like it's been hidden.

[B]

No. And it did fairly well. They debuted it on NBC. Linear NBC after the playoff game last week.

[A]

This was like taking, like, happy pills for me. I really, really, really, really enjoyed watching this.

[B]

No one writes jokes better than these people. And no one delivers these jokes maybe better than Tracy Morgan. It's so funny and it seems so effortless for them that it was like, both hilarious but deeply inspiring. Yeah, I loved it so much. I never wanted it.

[A]

Now, did you want 10 episodes waiting for you or were you happy to have just the one and parcel it out?

[B]

I definitely was ready for more, but it does help frame it. And just to be like, because I like you, maybe this is one of the few areas we don't talk about a lot. But I do rewatch 30 Rock, and every time I rewatch it, I am in awe of just what the construction of it and the jokes and how every time you watch an episode, no matter how many times you've seen it, there's the third level joke that you.

[A]

Hadn'T seen something happening in the background.

[B]

But in the midst of, like, the relationship to that show is, well, we have it. And so we can just drink deeply from the. Well. It was kind of nice to really examine the diamond sharp precision of their writing and construction in that old familiar 21 minute broadcast format. Yeah, that's so hard to do. And this has a higher concept and that it's documentary, but then it's not documentary. And then they had to advance the personal storylines and the emotional thing. I mean, but they, they just know how to do it.

[A]

They also have enough scratch to work with that they are doing things like recreating reggie dinkins. Old McDonald's.

[B]

What's it for? The.

[A]

For the MVP.

[B]

The McDonald's veal.

[A]

It's like veal pack.

[B]

It's incredible.

[A]

And it'll be like a pretty authentic 90s McDonald's commercial. You know, so there's. And then Reggie does some, like, ad in Japan where kids are hitting him with Nerf bats and he's like, what is this an advertisement for?

[B]

I do think we're helping our listeners heal. If you just laugh about this show.

[A]

I just think I'd be like, I feel bad because now we've spoiled nine jokes in it.

[B]

But. But there are 900 jokes in it.

[A]

Yeah. So please, please, Please go watch this.

[B]

What is your feeling? I kind of feel like maybe this is the first time you've ever seen Daniel Radcliffe act. Is that possible?

[A]

No, I.

[B]

Did you see Equus on Broadway?

[A]

No.

[B]

I know you didn't see Merrily We Roll along, which was amazing, but.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I mean, some of us saw it on Broadway.

[A]

Relax.

[B]

And it was released in theaters recently. You could check it out.

[A]

We can't both brag about that stuff.

[B]

You know why?

[A]

Because you don't have the reaction that I do to years things. You know, I'm like, we can't just be, like, trading back and forth.

[B]

Like, the cool theater experiences we've had. That's what keeps us in the top 200 of entertainment podcast all these years. That's what keeps him coming back.

[A]

I'm just embarrassed that I may have. I know that I've seen Daniel Radcliffe in a movie or two.

[B]

I wasn't trying to call you out. I think it's possible that you haven't, and that's okay.

[A]

I mean, obviously I'm conversant in the.

[B]

Potter movies, but I wasn't coming at you.

[A]

But not.

[B]

This isn't a gotcha podcast yet. All right. I was going to say, what'd you think? Like, here's this kid.

[A]

It's not gotcha. It's wudja.

[B]

It's whaja. It's like the opposite of Nicky Fink.

[A]

Told you. What'd you think of Daniel Radcliffe in the show? He looks like he's having the time of his fucking life.

[B]

This is what I wanted to get to.

[A]

If you were Daniel Radcliffe and they were like, hey, you stand in between Bobby Moynihan and Tracy Morgan and Erica Alexander. They're gonna do fucking a million jokes a minute at you.

[B]

And you have. And you can be funny, too. And you have a young family and you want to live in New York, and you just commute to Silver cup.

[A]

Studios and throw Halpert face every couple minutes.

[B]

It's such a sick gig. It's great. I also have to say, and I'm only bringing.

[A]

Maybe I should start doing that on this show.

[B]

I've been doing it for eight weeks. I saw it. You've never seen me do it. There was a. There is a non zero. I don't think this is likely, but there is a non zero chance that two or so weeks ago, walking in the Highland park neighborhood of Los Angeles, my daughters and I walked past Daniel Radcliffe carrying his child. Now this is now like a sliding doors moment within my family. Because they didn't see. And then they wanted me to drive slowly back around the neighborhood. And then we were like trying to like cross reference, like, why would he be in Los Angeles? And ultimately I was like, I don't think it was him because this person was of average height.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think that Daniel Radcliffe is. Is slightly below average height.

[A]

I mean, what's that? What's. What's below average to you?

[B]

Five, seven.

[A]

Exactly. Five, seven, huh?

[B]

I would say that I would just grab that number. You fucking prank. But my point is. Yeah, I think.

[A]

Because what's a lot of actors are, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. No, because their delicate features are smaller and then emote more for the camera.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Like Jeremy Allen White is here in the studio with us. You can't see him, but believe me, he could really sell it. I think I bring it up both because I'm curious if anyone else had Daniel Radcliffe sightings. But then also, like, there is no good outcome of that. Right. Like, what if we had seen him and it was Daniel Radcliffe and we locked eyes and my kids were like excited or impressed. There's no good interaction there. Right. There's no cool dad way to be.

[A]

Like, we have the same glasses.

[B]

We both work on Harry Potter.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure he would adapt you up. He's like, now you're part of the brotherhood. The brotherhood of wizards.

[B]

He would have dapped me up.

[A]

Actually. Wizard. Wizard brotherhood is probably, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not a great time for them.

[B]

No. Doesn't sound good.

[A]

Okay, so we highly recommend this week I don't even Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins. I don't know what night it goes up. You know, I'm sure you can check local listings, but we have to so really be. I'll find out for you.

[B]

We have to be able to support.

[A]

Reggie Dinkins shows like this. Okay, so here's the thing with Reggie Dinkins. You got this first episode and then it's not back until for real. It's a mid season replacement. So it's March 2nd is when it'll really start airing on Mondays at 8:30pm Right.

[B]

It was originally gonna premiere on February 23rd, but they gave a little sneak preview.

[A]

Don't know why I closed my computer.

[B]

Because we're done for the day. This is the only thing we want to talk about today. Clearly.

[A]

Okay. Do you want to talk about industry or night?

[B]

Let's do knight and then let's move on to industry night.

[A]

And Seven Kingdoms episode two opens with some swinging D. Yeah.

[B]

House Of D, I think, is what this is called.

[A]

It features some targs, which I was pretty, pretty into these guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, Okay.

[B]

I want to know. Give me, give me your tips.

[A]

Give me what.

[B]

No, I want to know what you're into. What's moving you?

[A]

Well, it's a 33 episode minute of.33 minute episode of game of Thrones, to be clear.

[B]

I liked it.

[A]

Inconceivable. If you've ever dealt. Dealt with Game of Thrones television before, the idea that they would be in and out, that they would tell a quick, not even like, I don't know, discernible act structure, because it's really about this guy trying to get into this tournament, trying to. Trying to make a name for himself and in Westeros and the different characters he comes across along the way. And I thought it had some really great notes, but the thing that jumped off the screen to me was the arrival of the Targaryens, which, you know, obviously like, suggests some sort of adversary in this whole adventure. And Finn Bennett is apparently a great high cheekboned asshole. He plays.

[B]

There's no shortage of those.

[A]

Aryan Bright Flame, I believe his name is.

[B]

I love that you know this.

[A]

And Sam Spurrell plays Maekar, who has the two fail sons.

[B]

Wasn't Bertie Carvell. It was Balor. It was Baelor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He seems pretty chill. He's nice.

[A]

Yeah. He's a reasonable executive, I think. You know, Hand of the King.

[B]

Honestly, I yearn for that. Like, that's not a bad baseline.

[A]

Targaryens. Are we sure? Yeah.

[B]

I'd like to set a floor. Yeah. Like some. They're not all.

[A]

Then set the floor on fire.

[B]

Burn down the whole castle. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think one of the interesting magic tricks of the show thus far is that I believe this to be the case, that this is suitable for noobs. Like, you can watch this show with no knowledge of Westeros or even having not really watched Game of Thrones and you kind of get it. And I think that's a remarkable achievement.

[A]

Yes. If you watched Game of Thrones the way I am broadly aware of what happens on Harry Potter. Like, I'm sure you could engage with this and be like, right, like, there's that family. But I think it would help to have watched Game of Thrones a little bit.

[B]

I attempted. I. I watched this episode in two ways.

[A]

I thought you were gonna say in two chunks that I was like 15.

[B]

Minutes and 15 minutes I'm life maxing right now. Yeah. I. I can't focus for too long.

[A]

You know when you were having your sleep problems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was wondering whether you should have flipped that into life. Maxing.

[B]

Oh, Just owned it.

[A]

You know, the guy who's just like, I wake up at midnight. Bang. I've got 12 more hours on you working. You know, like, maybe you should have been like, I did.

[B]

There was the day that I slept for, I believe, 80 minutes. And I was like, well, pre dawn is when one should really engage with Landman this week. And I felt much worse.

[A]

Those guys love sunrises on Landman.

[B]

They get sunsets, sure. They just love staring at them. I'm missing something. Like, I feel like that would be life, Max.

[A]

Anyway, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to.

[B]

It's just. Just that I watched the beginning of the episode and I was like, I still enjoy these characters. I enjoy the banter, I enjoy the tenor and to. Of what's going on here. But there were a couple lines that I was like, I'm not. I realized I wasn't fully catching, and I don't think it's just cause of my declining hearing. Then you refused the subtitle, so I put on subtitles.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I was surprised at the volume of, like, ah, Blackfyre, Brightblade. Yes. I saw your ser once at A Habit's Morn, and I was like, okay, dorks. Like, you really fucking went for it. Like, they're still saying this shit. And I was enjoying the show without it. Yeah, there's just like, ah. This is the Westerosi word for waking up and eating breakfast. I'm like, okay, all right. But my point wasn't that that sucks. My point was that they integrated it. Well, sure. It doesn't matter. I think that's really important.

[A]

I think it's super important, and I.

[B]

Think it's very hard. And this is all. I promise this is a compliment. We're going to get there. I think this is all in the service for something that has been relatively unique in our entertainment, which is something that can service everybody.

[A]

It's very rare that this happens. And, you know, I don't know, the numbers are on it, but I think that the fact that they have found a new tonal gear to tell these stories is, like, really fabulous and important to whatever extent, you know, you find Game of Thrones important. Yeah, it's like, it's funny, it's tender. You know, there's a little bit of mystery to it. There's a little bit of romance to it. There's a little bit of menace. To it. And.

[B]

And just the stakes like this can be done. The most exciting thing that happens in this episode is tug of war. Yes. I really appreciated that.

[A]

You know, do you feel it all when you're watching? You're like. And like, what's the. What are we waiting for here?

[B]

No. Well, there's a couple of things that are fun. Like, one, we actually have no idea if Duncan is good at being a knight. Yeah, they're really hiding the ball on that one. That's fine.

[A]

In terms of fighting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because in terms of his heart, he's. He's all there.

[B]

He's pure, but otherwise he's like.

[A]

That's a measurable eye can see, you.

[B]

Know, Other than that, all we've seen is basically the Westerosi equivalent of him posting up against a chair in his workout videos. You know, I'm still trying to get the Cranlin money from last week. I feel like that was good for us.

[A]

Was that like a g. That guy?

[B]

Yee. Remember that? Yeah.

[A]

The guy who played. Played against. In an empty gym against a chair with nobody in it.

[B]

Was it the same chair Clint Eastwood debated at the rnc? That was a big year for chairs.

[A]

I wish we could go back to that.

[B]

Mr. Obama, I disagree with you. That wasn't that long ago.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Anyway. Yeah, we don't know that. So that's exciting and interesting. But there's also. Now, look, somewhere off camera, Mallory and Joe could be laughing at the ignorance of this comment I'm about to make. But because I am trusting the show as it's been presented to me, I feel confident making the statement. I don't think Duncan is going to be decapitated in episode four or have Jaime Lannistered one of his arm.

[A]

Take that to Kelshi. You're right.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I thought Kalshee was in Essos. I was so confused by what you were saying.

[A]

No, I'm just talking about making a futures bet.

[B]

Right. Yeah. No, that's good. That's good. I was mixing it up with Klarna. I was just thinking about all the ways we're bankrupting ourselves.

[A]

Klarna's the thing where you can pay for a burrito three times, Right. In, like, installments.

[B]

They tell you three times and then Harper Sterntau shorts your burrito purchase.

[A]

I think they're just gonna short the Klarta.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's right. Anyway, that is also a different relationship with watching a show like this. And honestly, watching a lot of prestige television shows, this stuff still works. If you take out the dread. The dread is not an essential component of contemporary television. It was kind of the special sauce that. That boosted the last 20 years of this stuff, because it was definitely absent from the years of watching, like, Empty Nest and Golden Girls or whatever. Although those Golden Girls were quite up there in age. Imagine the prestige version of it where the specter of death is looming over every episode. Anyway, I find that really, really pleasant and really, really enjoyable. I think they're doing a lot of. I mean, they are, as they should, banking on the talent of just the acting talent that you can get. You mentioned Bertie Cavell, Sam Sproul, people we weren't familiar with. Like, I don't think I'd seen Finn.

[A]

Bennett before, but he's a true detective. Night Country.

[B]

Oh, that's that guy. Yep. I've enjoyed his work.

[A]

Yeah, he's really good.

[B]

He's a chameleon, let's say.

[A]

I think that they got they. Man, they geolocated, like these sort of tired but malevolent. But maybe not all malevolent. Old, like, fading monarchs in the way that those guys are playing these. The targs. And, you know, they don't have. The Targaryen's no longer in this show. There. There are no dragons, you know, not. Oh, it's not a choice. They've said that the last. The dragons are gone, you know.

[B]

Did they say that on this show? Yes, that was before I turned the subtitles on. But also, I didn't care. I want to be clear. Yeah, makes no difference to me. I didn't think, for budgetary reasons alone, I knew that one wasn't about to fly in and land in the middle of the parade grounds.

[A]

Yeah. And he was like, duncan, you sure are tall.

[B]

Then they high five, freeze frame.

[A]

I just like their. Their way that they are characterized and the way that the three actors so far playing the. The targs have. Have kind of agreed on, like, a tone. You know, it's always interesting to me when that's good direction, that's good writing, and that's good ensemble acting is to be like, where are we at? You're gonna be like this. I'm gonna be like this. But none of us are in a different show. None of us are, like, really hamming it up. They leave that to Daniel Ings, who's doing an incredible job as Lyonel Baratheon, who you get a little bit of tug of war with.

[B]

Also, you know, what was really cool, what was relatable, was the interaction that Duncan has with the Night's guard and his fancy outfit, and he's just like, I'm just the son of a crabber, but he's a fucking Nepo baby. Yeah.

[A]

How do you feel about that?

[B]

I was like, that's the problem with our economy, too.

[A]

Nepo babies. Well, I think there's a couple other things going on, too.

[B]

I don't know. Let's just do a game where we just shout out the problems.

[A]

Do you think I'm a Nepo baby.

[B]

In the realm of criticism?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do.

[B]

And frankly, it's always rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, you're not beating the allegations.

[A]

Yeah, it's true. It's true.

[B]

You know what I mean? There were a lot of opportunities for you that you could have. Print media, you know, newspapers. Yeah. You could have stayed in that lane.

[A]

Mr. Gerald Inquirer was like, chris, you are the prince who was promised free, please.

[B]

I think there were a couple other points. One I didn't know. I guess maybe. Maybe I've seen. Have you seen full. Full team scrimmage jousting before?

[A]

No, but that was fucking awesome.

[B]

Yeah, that was cool.

[A]

That almost made me be like, we should get, like, multiple football games played at the same time.

[B]

Like the four box. Yeah.

[A]

But like, all the same field. Like, all of them on that snowy Mile High Stadium.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And have, like, the Seahawks playing at one end against the Rams.

[B]

That's pretty cool.

[A]

And then they have to fight in the middle.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, that's kind of Quidditch, by the way. Daniel Radcliffe could have told you about it had you run into him. But ye.

[A]

Yeah, I think that that was, like, an effective. Like a really effective way of showing, like, Duncan's lack of preparedness for what he's getting into.

[B]

You know, he was a little stressed. Yeah.

[A]

I think he was like, this is faster. This is more violent than I thought it was. You hear stories about it or you squire for somebody and it's like, one thing, but it's another thing to be like, shit, that's gonna be me.

[B]

Remember when the last time we saw jousting on a Game of Thrones show and it was intercut with violent childbirth?

[A]

Oh, that's right. I forgot about that.

[B]

I don't know if you remember, but the real battleground is the womb.

[A]

Was that at the end?

[B]

That was the pilot episode of House of the Dragon.

[A]

Oh, that's right.

[B]

It's the real battleground, son.

[A]

The womb's not up there.

[B]

No, you have to think about the womb.

[A]

Yeah. Thinking about the womb is a problem.

[B]

And Nepo babies. Like, these are all the problems. Do I have spelled out for you. I see the big board last thing. I'm curious. Maybe we'll talk to Ira Parker at some point. Or you guys will. You could ask this. I'll write the question before you take my answer off air. Like, did they have in their edit process, did they have non superfans eyes on the product? Meaning I would say, as someone who is relatively unspoiled, but not wholly unspoiled, and I don't think this will spoil anything. A lot of lingering shots on egg this episode. I would say thumb is heavy on the scale.

[A]

It's just good storytelling. Is like, this kid's not like the other kids, you know, because of. I think also just because of, like, his alarm at seeing the Targaryens arrive or his knowledge of maybe watch House.

[B]

Of the Dragon season one and two. He's like, oh, my God, we're all gonna be stuck talking to a tree for six weeks. Fuck. Thought we were gonna have fun. That's it. That's probably what he's thinking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you don't feel like you're being overly. I mean, there's only four half hours left. Right. So you don't feel like we're being overly indicated? Like anything's being.

[A]

No, I think it's just, like, decent. I mean, clearly, like, he's important, you know, this kid. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, he seems important.

[A]

But how important? It will be interesting, you know, how important and how, like, I like the idea that they can tell stories in this world without everybody being a messiah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or an arch villain.

[B]

And it's very. I never thought I would say this about a Game of Thrones.

[A]

You go back to, like, the moment of, like, Jamie and Brienne doing their, like, road trip. That's like. To some people, maybe even myself included, that's like. That's like the best Thrones gets. And so it's nice to have a show about that. Let's get into industry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a lot of ways, I think that this could have been. I mean, they needed to have the first episode to introduce new characters and to introduce new stakes. And that first episode of this season was largely about Tender and its relationship to the onlyfans esque company that I can't remember. Siren.

[B]

Siren.

[A]

And the Kalpen character's dismissal from the CEO role.

[B]

And is he one and done, do you think?

[A]

I would imagine we will see him at some point. Knowing the way industry recycles characters, it's not even recycles characters, but people come back for their pound of flesh, you know what I mean? When they get wronged or not, maybe they just come back and get a job like Kenny and everybody else. It's been remarked upon by us and by many other people and I believe by Mick Conrad and talking about the show that this is a soft reboot. You're rebuilding the plane midair in some ways. And so because of that, I think that this episode also functions as a season premiere in some ways because at least in terms of now, we have established a new company with Harper and Eric. They have brought on some familiar faces and some unfamiliar faces to work with them. By the end of the episode you've sort of got the Avengers getting into a an elevator and they're thunderbolts. Sure, that's a good way of putting it. In the meantime, Henry has emerged from his winter of discontent and taken over this role as CEO. That could be somewhat ornamental, but seems like, you know, he's taking it much more seriously and he's brought Yasmin along with him to be his comms consultant.

[B]

And to just be his minder basically.

[A]

Yeah, his right hand woman. And it just felt like this episode had the thriller pacing that I think this show thrives on, even though I enjoy the slices of life and the kind of more the moodier pieces. So what did you think of episode three?

[B]

Well, I want to start with what you said because I think that that's hugely important. Every week we've talked about this season I've been marveling like the who's that dude who just climbed the skyscraper?

[A]

Alex Honnold.

[B]

Yeah. Perhaps not literally similar in terms of risk but, but. So perhaps that's a bit grandiose. But I will say it would be.

[A]

Great if when he was doing that you could have like, you know, if he had an earpiece and was like Alex, do you think this is more less impressive than what Mickey and Conrad.

[B]

Getting doing a soft reboot for Industry Season four?

[A]

Eric, back across the pod.

[B]

I do watch the show though with a perhaps slightly, slightly less but still a remarkable appreciation and respect for the Risk. It is also, as we joked about last week, a remarkable counterpoint to a show like Landman that basically took an entire season to do what they did almost in the off season between seasons three and season four. One of the greatest things about Industry is its unwavering commitment to always being the most extra best version of and it just has complete disinterest story wise in what Mickey and Conrad are not interested. It just doesn't deal with it. And I think that's incredibly good writing.

[A]

Just give me an example of what you're talking about.

[B]

So this episode picks up. We learn in a throwaway comment that it's been one month since the last episode. I like the people who make the show, have no interest in how Henry set up his CEO office or his decision making to bring Yasmin on or her reaction to it, or how they found this weird, crumbling post Nazi Austrian bank to be their front. Yeah. Similarly, I loved the way season three ended for Harper and Erik and you know, the characters that we had been invested in as the status quo crumbled around them. It worked. It was really effective storytelling and it was very dramatic and compelling. That said, I don't think I'm interested in her life and career at Moston. Neither were they. I'm not really interested in Eric's retirement or his life away. It doesn't matter how they got him back. I want them back together. And once you accept that, I think because there is an urge in all things, especially as podcasters, to explain everything, to make sure everyone.

[A]

It's also a very easy way to make many television episodes just by being like, and then, and then.

[B]

And maybe this is also an American thing of like, I'm gonna show my work, I'm gonna, I'm gon do all this. And they're like, fudge it. That's funnier. That's more interesting.

[A]

Largely, I would say, like a lot of the discourse of online commentary about television shows is more or less boiled down to plot holes and narrative. Sort of like basically pressure testing narratives and being like, well, they didn't say that he got across the street, so I assume he's invisible. You know, like it's like this sort of stupidity that is now brave.

[B]

Recap for the game Frogger. What is the. What is the context of that observation?

[A]

No, it was my spec on Nightcrawler from X Men or it was the.

[B]

Dark story about the chicken that definitely got. That definitely got pitched around.

[A]

Dude, last night when I was. Nevermind. I don't have to digress here.

[B]

Is it about Nightcrawler?

[A]

No, it was about House of X and Power of X.

[B]

Okay, we'll put that. We're not doing Eagles talk this week.

[A]

We'll do Hickman talk.

[B]

Yeah, we'll do Nerd talk at the end. The biggest example of what I'm trying to say in regards to industry is Rishi, one of the best characters on the show in Many ways emblematic of the growth of the show. From someone who was a background, not afterthought, but certainly not the focus to someone who forced his way through Sagaradia's performance, but also his utility and humor and everything he brought to the show forced his way into the main conversation. Last season ended for that character in a real heat check moment, I would say for the show where his bookie shoots his wife point blank.

[A]

Is his bookie or the like. He's in.

[B]

He's in hot. He's owes this guy. Yeah. In front of him. And I was like, this is a real. They've really painted themselves into a corner here. And it's a real challenge to themselves to get out of it. I didn't remember how they operate and what I mean by that is I am very interested in the version of Rishi we've seen so far in the season and how they are using him. Yeah, I don't really want to know what happened in the 1 minute, 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 months after the events were happening.

[A]

I think we will have that. I would imagine we don't. They will probably at some point have to have the sweet pea. Rishi, Ed Harper kind of conversation about like, you know, sweet pea obviously feels like Rishi's actions led to his wife's death. Calling him a murderer. He's like, I'm not technically.

[B]

And he was responsible for the leak of her onlyfans or whatever it was. Yeah. Siren. Yeah. So that was. But again, that's a smart use.

[A]

SternTao's HR policies have yet to be defined.

[B]

I would say that's accurate and we can circle back to that as well as tenders certainly in terms of company off sites. But the best exploration and explanation of Rishi is to just put him with Sagar. Giving that performance in the room with Sweepy and letting her react to it. That's more interesting and that's forward facing. And inevitably because of their relationship with the actor and the character, there will be more Rishi. But I think that that's really been appropriate and a lesson to people who struggle with the like, oh, I've, I've. I've trapped myself. How am I going to get out? Yeah, I really, I really like that there's some.

[A]

They built some danger into the show because they have said goodbye to characters. They have let Rob leave, they have like Gus leave, they have let Jesse Blume leave. You know what I mean? Like they don't just keep you around just to keep you around. Now you could say at the end of this episode, there has to be five other bankers in the world other than Kenny and Sweetpea, if you wanted to. But in some ways, I think it's indicative of the specific personalities involved in terms of Harper and Eric, that they need people to work with them who understand their specific ways of working. Right.

[B]

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Who are also quite clearly willing to play fast and loose with what society deems appropriate. I'm glad you brought up Rob, because all of that, all of my prelude. There was a way of sort of hopefully contextualizing my feelings about the show this season and also saying that I thought this was the weakest episode in quite some time, maybe since season one or two.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And we can get into it. I want to talk to you about how you felt about the episode as well. But one of the reasons why. One of the things that I thought at the end of the episode, which felt very. The entire thing felt a little untethered and unmoored to me. Not just because there is no trading floor, but because characters for the first time in a while, were, to my mind, performing their inner workings in a way that felt. I'm not gonna use the word earned, but felt declarative and not really meeting the moment.

[A]

So, like Harper's sushi date.

[B]

Harper's sushi date and her unloading it. Eric felt like the show is asking Myhallah to play a very different person episode to episode to episode. Yasmine's complete heel turn back to being, you know, the psychosexual manipulator that she has been in the past. I mean, that's consistent with the character felt. That whole detour felt shocking for shocking's sake. To me. It felt emptier in a way that I think critics of the show have criticized it before, but I've never really. And the one thing I'll throw on the top of this and then I'll give you the floor, is that weirdly I felt like the show, it doesn't miss Purepoint. It misses Rob because he was the soul. Yes. And they let go of him at the right time. I think that that character was satisfying.

[A]

I think that that was the most honest thing that they could do because they would just be like a guy like this just couldn't, would not fucking hack it. Slash had had sort of like a self regard that would be like, I can't do this to myself anymore. Now I don't know what Rob is doing in California. Like, obviously the end of his character arc in season three suggests he's back, back on his bullshit. Like selling things that people don't need to people with too much money. So great. But I hear, I hear what you're saying. I think I had different reactions. I mean, I. I think I mentioned last week that I was like, characters on the show are now entirely, like, vocalizing, like an interiority that usually stays interior in some fashion. And I think that that's, in some cases, that's just called style. Like, that's how Sorkin writes and that's how Jesse Armstrong writes. And different, different writers have different ways of, of externalizing people's psychology and emotional states and also using characters to vocalize and verbalize things that they feel about the world and things that they feel about whatever the hell they're talking about in the show or movie. Yaz rang very true to me. They're doomed. They might be doomed people. And I think that you get like 35 seconds of it's you and me in the open road and everything is in front of us, baby. And now it's like very quickly slipping back into, like, Henry is talking like a corporate mouthpiece again. And Yaz has to exact her power over him in the ways that she understands how. And maybe also the reason why this is one of my favorite shows of all time is because people are fucked up and do fucked up things.

[B]

Yeah. I do want to say another admirable thing about the show that sets it apart is that the creators are not overly in love with their creations.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

There is a tendency baked into television that over time, the audience softens towards the characters, even ones who we've seen do bad acts. And the creators feel similarly and they steer them towards the light or give you more and more of their humanity and often, in effect, defang them. Even shows as like Pantheon, as Mad Men did this, not with every character, but, you know, they fall in love with the actor, they fall in love with the performer. One of the core tenets of industry that I think critics often miss is that these guys, these characters aren't just fuck ups. They fuck up constantly. What has Yasmin been good at professionally, with all of her fumblings over, you know, towards doing this and trying this instead over three or four years, maybe you know, being the dramaturg for psychosexual inappropriate workplace relationships. That might be her calling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I don't want to. I want to be able to have the conversation with you that we're having because I don't. I don't want to fall back into a Criticism of. But I like her. I want her to be better. That's definitely not what I'm saying. I just felt like when you move as fast as these guys do, story wise and you break things sometimes along the way, it can be hard for the audience to catch up to where the characters are in that moment. So the Eric Harper thing, I did have a moment. Not as someone enjoying the scene between two actors that I love, but someone who has watched four seasons of the show being like, Eric needs to get away from this destructor, this eater of orcs.

[A]

Of course he's not going to.

[B]

No, of course not. But I want.

[A]

That's the only thing that makes him feel alive.

[B]

But then within the context of the episode, as she is just eviscerating him before she leaves work and eviscerating him when she comes back from her meal in which she didn't eat. I want.

[A]

She just thinks she was hangry.

[B]

Yes, thank you. Yes. I want to see what he is deciding to commit himself more because what. Instead the way that I. The feeling I left the episode with. And again, I want to be clear, like I don't watch the show with subtitles. I didn't watch it twice and it could be moving too fast for me at times. But when he. When I read the this plus that equals that equation of the episode, Eric felt like he has yet to understand Harper and be the human in her life that she so clearly needs. So as a sign of good faith, he has imperiled his children's future by giving her $10 million or pounds or whatever the case may be. That felt disproportionate to the moment to me. It moves the story well.

[A]

I mean. So I think because of the style in which the show is made, sometimes because of the filmmaking and because of the music and because of the cinematography and honestly the beauty of a lot of the performers that are performing the work. It's easy to lose track of the fact that I think several of the main characters are on the outside looking into both to the worlds that they occupy. Yes, Diker is a really good example of the Charlie Heaton character who's working at a Financial Times esque newspaper is clearly like writing checks is stories can't cash in terms of their reporting.

[B]

And there's the illusion that he himself was a speculator or a gambler and.

[A]

Lost money and lost money and now is basically asking for this, you know, reporting trip to Africa so that he can continue to investigate. Tender Eric and Harper were last seen during the fall of this investment bank at Purepoint. They have interpersonally fallen out multiple times, savagely. So just tried to destroy each other's lives multiple times. And the meeting that they can get at the beginning of this episode is with family, bank investors and small time. Not maybe not small time, but, like, they get the bare minimum response from the city in London or Wall Street. So they are outsiders. Henry is noble by birth, and that's pretty much it, and is going through, like, a midlife crisis and obviously has severe mental health problems and probably substance problems and et cetera, et cetera. Yasmin has gone through her traumatic relationship with her family and doesn't really have a job right now, you know, and is not. One of the things that was so harrowing about the second episode is every time it's suggested that Yaz would leave Henry, he's like, where's she gonna go?

[B]

Yeah, there's a lot of.

[A]

And it's like, yeah, where's she gonna go? Where are any of these people gonna go? They have grabbed onto each other as pieces of driftwood, as life rafts, and now they are turning the life raft into a speedboat and going into a point unknown. But I think it's important to remember that even if the characters are viewed as these world killers, as Eric once called Harper, they have a lot of problems. And I don't think the show is shying away from that.

[B]

I think that's really well observed. I think one of the things that's been most compelling about the show over time is that we came to it in season one definitely with an American mindset of, I guess it's going to be Darwinian. But these kids who come from diverse backgrounds, in all senses, financially, in terms of race, class, country of origin, you know, the Alphas will win and then become the rightful heirs of whatever. That's a very American way of looking at it. The only life raft that all these people are clinging to is entrenched old money and aristocracy. So. And Henry's been, you know, introduced to the show as an important plank. And a great performance from Kit Harrington, and we see the prison of his life, but it is a gilded cage. And a lot of these other characters would probably think they would die to be a part of it, because governments change, fintech regulations change, but the people in the clubby rooms playing handball do not change.

[A]

Yes. And that whole sequence with Jennifer Bevan at the end with the meeting with.

[B]

The current Ricky Martin with a. Yeah.

[A]

And the prime minister's chief of staff comes in and is essentially like soft launching Bevan's coup against the current. The current. The current. Like, basically. Was it the digital spaces minister or like.

[B]

Well, but then. But then the. But then the. The press, the tabloids are saying that she's the labor's heir apparent. Yeah. So really it's a coup against whoever is the standard for Keir Starmer in their current show. I mean, I. I think that there are these collections, as always, with the show of just jaw drop details and moments and the paintings being. The bad paintings being by a Hitler is incredible. One of the probably less likely to be remarked upon, but I thought really outstanding scenes in how it was staged is when Harper walks in on Eric's daughter visiting. And the entire scene is, I believe, quite intentionally filmed. Like there was a prostitute in the hotel room. Yes. It's his daughter.

[A]

Well, also, does the daughter think that Harper is who Errik left the family for?

[B]

Well, in a way, it doesn't matter because she's right. Either this is the person who caused the rupture in the family or the rupture in his professional stability or has brought him back into their lives in a different way. She is the disruptor. The daughter's right about that. And then he gives her a wad of cash and says, tell mom this was a good visit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, the transactional nature of everything on the show, that was just really brilliantly and beautifully staged. I think maybe what I'm feeling in terms of what, to my mind, so far this season, the show has been less successful at, is stitching these small observations and these incredibly radioactive, in the best possible way characters, stitching them together into something that feels as propulsive and as clever and as almost seamless as the show was last season. But maybe that is also a byproduct of they broke it. They intentionally broke it, and now they're beginning again. So I'm definitely like, these lighter criticisms I have are not like, I'm not turning my back on it. I'm interested in how they steer everything back together into a larger tapestry. Because right now, and this is another point I'm curious, your thoughts about Tender is being presented to us in a way in which all of James's skepticism is true. It is. And this is also to do with, I think, Max Minghella's performance, which is pretty sneery, super villainy. They're bad. Right. And I don't know if the show is more narratively compelling or not, if there's some doubt about it, but it's been three Hours of television. And all they had to do is take a trip to sunderland to find out that this is kind of as corrupt as something can be. So what's the next card to turn?

[A]

Sure. Is it that tender is good? Actually. Actually is good.

[B]

Right. Or is there. You know, again, these guys and this show is not. They're not simplistic thinkers in terms of how they view the world or in terms of how they make a drama. But to this point, it seems pretty clear. Not what's good and what's bad. We're past that. But what's factually true. And maybe ultimately the most important.

[A]

A lot of talk about narratives and story.

[B]

So maybe that's the ultimate takeaway from the episode is what erik says, is that none of that matters Unless you have the winning story. Yes. Which I thought was compelling. And also, you know, as a recent convert to bill ackman's work, didn't know about his battle with herbalife. Really fascinating. Yeah. Did some googling. There's a documentary about it.

[A]

Are you up on some of his more recent opinions as well?

[B]

Fascinating. Fascinating character. Just morally. Just consistent and just seems like a really good guy. I. Oh. I'm the only one in the room who's willing to say it. I just feel like. I guess I respect dangerous thinking.

[A]

That's a lot of her money in pershing. So it's. She's just a little nervous.

[B]

I thought that was interesting. I didn't know anything about that. I can't say I've been like, Wasn't really clocking billionaires until relatively recently. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because don't care. And then now that they have all, like, you know, revealed themselves, I'm like, oh, okay. By the way, I thought. I'm glad that you refused your invitation to the melania screening.

[A]

I was busy, you know, I wanted to watch the broncos.

[B]

You wanted to watch reggie dinkins.

[A]

I wanted to watch reggie dinkins. A couple of things. For me, it wouldn't be the same show. It would probably be too big of a swing and too crazy. I kind of. I would have fucked with, like, Jim dyker being the hero of this season or the protagonist of the season.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And conrad. Mickey getting in the newsroom and doing, like, how do these stories get assembled? And maybe there will be more, like, he'll be more featured as the season goes on. It was kind of fun to be in a different workplace and talking about this. Talking about different, you know, actions and consequences of a job in the same fashion as the way investment bankers talk to One another. There was a lot of overlapping off screen dialogue happening with the. In the newsroom there. I also just thought it's worth pointing out that while I'm like, oh, it would be cool if you guys just like straight up made this show about a financial journalist looking into multiple companies out there and trying to get Harper to help him, it would also take away from the fact that I do think, as we've commented before, the central love story or the central relationship of this television show is Harper and Eric.

[B]

Yeah. And I think I'm. Maybe I'm basic, maybe I'm soft batch, but I think I need more of that. I think that Harper as Shiva, destroyer of worlds, is a compelling character and has been unique and compelling for three seasons. And I think that the show has been appropriately delicate with backstory and trauma. As she says in this episode. My trauma was traumatizing. So that's Which I thought was really effective line and true to character.

[A]

It was funny when he was like. It seems like you're triggered.

[B]

They're great together. Ken Lung is such a good actor. He's so. I think it's just remarkable to watch him play different gradations of the same person in different times in life. And he can make himself, you know, as a man who I believe is probably 5, 7, roughly, he can make himself small, huge or small with really subtle ways through performance. Like the episode where Harper goes off, you know, goes off the grid in Berlin and there's the. With her twin brother. And so we know, we remember that from the past. We remember that relationship, the episode. It's not unintentional that one of the first things she does this season is shred a card from her mother. I believe so it requires a light hand to backfill some of the humanity of the character. But I do think that the show, and I'm sure they are aware of this as well and there's episodes to come and as we always say we don't watch ahead. But I think, I think that the way that Eric was backfilled with his family and his relationship to his family and his choices and his relationship with Bill was the boss that he.

[A]

Adler.

[B]

Adler was the boss we sabotaged last season. I get where he is like Echo located in terms of his emotional journey. Despite my criticism of his willingness to sacrifice everything, Harper less so. And so I think that to make that the relationship that is going to, you know, provide the ballast for the season, I think I need more. And luckily there's more episodes. So it is not this is not prescriptive. I think I was feeling that this episode. How did you feel about the Austrian vacation?

[A]

I thought it was very funny. I thought it was very funny. I thought that it's one of those things where I could see someone being like, whether they think it's on the nose or more of like an ideological convention rather than a scene of dramatic characters. I'm like, compared to what? What else on TV is doing anything like this? And I actually loved the moment after the three way. And when they get home.

[B]

Not, not the oyster at the breakfast oyster.

[A]

No. When Henry sort of scolds Yasmin for giving, for facilitating that guy's op ed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that was, you know, perhaps paternalistic or whatever of, of Henry to just be like, know your place. Like, don't go around my back and use the media for, to fight my battles or whatever. But I did think it was like the grades of the way that these aristocratic failsons kind of judge one another and what their sort of red lines are, you know, and he's like, he's not just like writing homages to the Wehrmacht or whatever, you know, like, or the Weimar Republic or whatever he was writing about. You would know based on your effinger's reading.

[B]

Oh, did I mention that? Sorry, I've just been reading so many great books lately.

[A]

Have you actually cracked a new book since then yet?

[B]

2. You know, I like to do a two track strategy.

[A]

I don't know how you finish anything.

[B]

I'm, I mean, I'm not watching tv so you know, I've got a little bit of, little pocket of time.

[A]

Okay, where was I? Oh, I just really like that scene. And I think a lot of these plot lines are really in their infancy. I, I don't know that IBM Bauer is done now and they've, they've fixed it.

[B]

No, I, I, I, I bumped a little bit on that scene, the vacation, only because it was reminiscent of circumstances we've seen on succession relatively recently.

[A]

We all have to get on a plane and go and do this and.

[B]

Woo someone who is a little bit. Whoa.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that's how they do it in that country.

[A]

But it was a good illustration of like Whitney's sort of in this Harper esque place of outsider.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, another person where it's just like this is his shot. He's making his run here with this merger and his idea and his big talk about bank killer. And that's how these guys, I guess assume that they have to talk and think if they want to build Their. Their pile.

[B]

Yeah. And. And it. I think it's similarly like the show doesn't hold your hand and understanding that like this isn't a fringe company and that its attempt to become a bank or a bank killer is of incredible central importance to the labor government.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But of course it should be because you want. This goes back to my first point. Push the show towards the most interesting, most dangerous places. So.

[A]

And in industry's case, as quickly as possible.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that that is. That is the DNA of the show that has allowed it to be successful and to grow exponentially season to season in terms of interest, viewership and success. So this is me wholeheartedly. I. I believe, you know what, I believe in the strategy and I think that the, you know, it's like, it's like putting your money with a. It's stern towel. It's a little bit. It's a little bit aggressive.

[A]

Yeah, it's one directional.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Omnidirectional single is. It's like you're really going one directional.

[B]

Not like Harry Styles.

[A]

No, not like that. But I just mean, like, it's like those guys are talking about at the breakfast table. They're just like, this is insane to just be a short only play.

[B]

But even that, that's something that I really loved because it was like that struck me as something that is a great television thing, which is aware of the character you've built and the plot decisions you've made over three years. And Harper consistently just seems to be shorting it.

[A]

The entire business is built on these pivots and being first or being, you know, and like get getting around the bend before everybody else. So when a person like Harper keeps pitching these people, these guys are all gonna eventually like, one of them is gonna be like, she. She could be onto something. It's worth a little bit of money.

[B]

That was the Jesse Bloom.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

But. But what I'm saying is it's. It's using something that they had already established because I think that if you look at all of her big bets, they've basically been shorts. And I don't know, again, I might not be remembering it correctly. I don't know if any character was like, what's up with you in shorts? Are you. You have no confidence in things, thus reflecting your character about like how the world works and the, you know, and. And your place in it that you just don't buy any of this great man bullshit. But now they have what is. I mean, Yaz uses the Word narrative eyes. They. Mickey and Conrad have narrativized that. That is now the business model.

[A]

Well, until season five, when she's a real builder.

[B]

Exactly. You know, she's gonna build back better.

[A]

It's infrastructure week, baby.

[B]

That all works.

[A]

I tried reading House of X, by the way, which is the Jonathan Hickman run. I've read it. I think I've read it like I've read Gravity's Rainbow. I've started a lot. Yeah.

[B]

Are you doing this?

[A]

I'm not doing it chronologically, no.

[B]

But are you. First of all, I appreciate your candor. Are you doing this because you feel like X Men are coming back into your life over the next two years thanks to the MCU and you want to kind of get in front of it?

[A]

I picked it up because I have a anthology graphic novel of the two of. It's like Hawkspox, House of X.

[B]

Of X. Powers of X.

[A]

Powers of X. And then there's also House of m. That's.

[B]

That's 20 years ago. And you don't want that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's the Scarlet Witch, the Power of X. Right.

[A]

Okay. And I have a book of it. And I was like, oh, I did download the chronological version of this, but then they were like, it. We just did that for fun. You shouldn't actually read the story that way. So I'm trying. And, like, I mean, it's very, very good.

[B]

It's very dense.

[A]

It's very dense. We're talking about many, many timelines.

[B]

So for people who don't know, the last great reinvention of a property that Marvel Publishing did was now this is already five years ago. The great comic book writer Jonathan Hickman, responsible for a lot of the big, big ideas that are now going to be put on the screen in Doomsday and Secret wars in terms of, like, multiversal incursions.

[A]

Yeah. Don't blame him, though.

[B]

No, don't blame him. He took over the X Men and just kind of industried it in the sense of, like, I am going to profoundly and forever change, or so we hope, the status quo by not throwing out, building on this franchise's radical history of reinvention and radically reinventing it. And so in these. I mean, it's not even worth getting into all the big changes, but the biggest one was instead of, you know, Professor X versus Magneto, and they're superheroes and supervillains, it was this idea that's always been coded into it that mutants are a race, and in this world, they come together, they live On Krakoa, the mutant living island, which has been canon since the 70s. And start a new society that will negotiate with humanity and, like, give them access to pharmaceuticals. Pharmaceuticals and things basically in exchange for being left alone. And they do things like combine their powers, like weird dumb joke characters. Combine them into a team that can resurrect any mutant forever because Professor X stores their memories and lives in their brain. And so they have cured mortality.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is a story that goes across timelines and across outer space.

[A]

It's like, jump. I think the timeline jumping is a little confusing.

[B]

And it was really worth it. And a way forward that, of course, the demands of comic books meant that Hickman did it for two years and was like, cool, I think I'm gonna go do something else. And they're like, we'll just keep doing it for a year. And then they were like, and now it's over. And everybody's different again now. Or back to the way they were. And it's hugely disappointing. But look at you jumping on this, doing the work.

[A]

I mean, I just had that lying next to my bed. So I was just like, I want to take a break from screens for a little while.

[B]

And from effingers, I guess, which you haven't quite picked up. Did you. Are you. Is this of interest to you? If we're doing a little comic book talk at the end here? Are you aware of the biggest success story in comic books of the decade?

[A]

No.

[B]

Which is DC Comics absolute line, where they did kind of like what Marvel, in a way, what Marvel did 25 years ago, where they were like, in a lower place sales wise and culturally, certainly before the movies. And they were like, we're gonna create a new separate universe called the Ultimate Universe. And we're gonna give our best creators free range to. What would happen if the X Men and Spider man happened now, in this case the year 2000. And that's when Miles Morales, who's now famous in the Spider verse movies, came from. Not originally, but eventually. So D.C. basically did another corporate wide fuck it. And we're going to create new versions of Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Martian Manhunter, with the very truly the best of the best creators. And with kind of twists on the origin story where Wonder Woman is a princess, not of Amazon, but from hell. Oh, and Batman is this you might not relate to. This is a son of working people.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

He's not a Nepo kid. You know, like, so that. That might be your limit. And they are selling at a rate of, like, comics haven't sold since the 90s, really. And like the collected editions are sold out everywhere.

[A]

Absolute.

[B]

It's called absolute. Yeah. And people are. They're awesome. I just started dipping a toe into them. But it's very cool. And I think that one I've never.

[A]

Really fucked with dc, but maybe I'll check it out.

[B]

Me either. I think the thing that's been interesting is the relationship between these publishing arms that for a while one of the reasons why Marvel felt one of the less reported on. I know Marvel is completely reported on, but I think one of the reasons that Marvel did get to dominate the world is because they had been kind of incubating really cool ideas and concepts for so long that the MCU could pick and choose some of these things to varying degrees of success. But like certain versions of characters or there was canonical blueprints for them.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Or for taking things in a different direction or doing kind of what if? Not just the series, what if. And now and then over the last 20 years, the comics, with notable exceptions, sort of had to service the continuities of the movies in this forever attempt to be like, you guys really liked seeing Dr. Strange on the screen. May I interest you in 30 years.

[A]

Of Steve Ditko's it's vertical integration times.

[B]

A billion, which I don't think has ever really worked. So I think what was cool about DC coming from a place where the movies pre gun weren't hitting and still I guess the jury's relatively out on that. They were just like, we're gonna be a publishing company and we're gonna do bold things and it's paying off.

[A]

What a great recommendation to end the show on.

[B]

Do you think people made it this far?

[A]

I hope so. I mean, I think our industry conversations are always something people look forward to.

[B]

I think that's nice.

[A]

Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to Kai.

[B]

Kai, which absolute comic book will you be picking up between now and Thursday's show? I mean, where do I even begin?

[A]

How do I change? Princess of Hell kind of describes Kya.

[B]

You know, just more of her world beating attitude.

[A]

That's right. Thanks to Kya. Thanks to Kai. We'll be back on Thursday with some pit. Some other stuff.

[B]

You know what else is this week? Speaking of comics, Wonder Man.

[A]

Oh, you know what?

[B]

Which I kind of want to check out.

[A]

I kind of want to check that out too. So we'll be back on our Marvel bullshit this week as well. Thanks everybody for listening and watching. We'll talk to you on Thursday.