‘Avengers: Doomsday’ Footage, ‘Euphoria’ S3E2, and ‘Margo’s Got Money Troubles’ Episodes 1-3

Summary

The Watch — April 20, 2026

Episode Theme:
Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan dive into Marvel’s latest “Avengers: Doomsday” developments, take a deep read on Euphoria season 3 episode 2, and discuss the new Apple TV+ series, Margo’s Got Money Troubles (episodes 1–3). The hosts reflect on TV adaptation trends, shifting industry priorities, and the problem of “safe” television.

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Quick Reference: Major Segments & Timestamps

• Marvel’s “Avengers: Doomsday” & Re-release of “Endgame”: 09:32–17:47
• Euphoria Season 3, Episode 2 (“America My Dream”): 19:25–45:44
• State of Prestige TV & Power Rankings: 45:18–52:25
• Margo’s Got Money Troubles (Apple TV+): 52:25–73:25

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1. Marvel’s “Avengers: Doomsday” and the Great Franchise Reset

Timestamps: 09:32–19:16

Key Points & Insights

• Marvel’s Game Plan: Marvel is re-releasing Endgame in September, potentially with new or repurposed Doomsday footage, as an attempt to “re-rail” the franchise after several underwhelming years.
• Joe Russo’s Wild Announcement: Joe Russo revealed these plans via Zoom at Scotland’s St. Andrews Film Festival—an odd venue for such a big move, noted by both hosts.
• Industry Context: Andy calls it “a tacit admission that the last six or seven years of Marvel has kind of not worked” (11:10).

Memorable Quotes

• Chris: “What do you think about the idea of a filmmaker going back and tweaking something in mid air to connect it to another part of the franchise?” (11:11)
• Andy: "I'd be hard pressed to think of an example of [retconning] a prior movie to align with a sequel." (11:38)
• Andy: "They are doing a really interesting thing… trying to convey complete confidence that they have this thing in the bag," calling attention to Marvel's marketing campaign and IMAX alternatives like “InfinityVision.” (14:08)
• Chris: “I immediately started thinking about other franchises—Star Wars hasn’t dared this kind of canon-tweaking, only Marvel’s that wild.” (15:18)

Vibe

Reflective, lightly skeptical, underscored by industry fatigue with recent Marvel output.

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2. Euphoria S3E2: “America My Dream”

Timestamps: 19:25–45:44

Key Points & Insights

• A Surreal, Tonal Mix: Chris and Andy discuss Euphoria as a show navigating between “three different TV shows at once”—noir, soap, and cryptic LA satire—but remaining compelling because of its unpredictability.
• Cultural and Aesthetic Analysis:
  • Andy, new to the show (“This is my second ever episode of Euphoria”), probes the moral ambiguity and slippery character histories.
  • Chris breaks down the nuances lost on newcomers, e.g., Nate's history (“Nate’s kind of a piece of shit. And I didn’t know if you knew that.” 23:33).
• TV as ‘Bucket Show’: Andy praises Levinson’s use of Euphoria as a container for all his stylistic and thematic interests.
• Visual Praise:
  • The show’s depiction of Southern California and the desert gets highlighted as “as exciting as anything that happens inside the Silver Slipper.”
  • Andy: “The shot of Rue begging her mother to come home while a gas station light goes out—astonishing image. Genuinely moving.” (39:13)
• Zendaya & Performance:
  • Chris: “She’s compulsively watchable… communicates so much of the necessary ambiguity that should come with a show like this.” (42:58)
• Laundry-Folding TV vs. Bold TV:
  • The hosts contrast ‘prestige’ as it manifests on Euphoria with typical, safe, episodic TV: “There’s no laundry in this show.”
  • Andy references Sam Esmail’s critique of “laundry folding shows,” emphasizing that Euphoria is "aesthetically bold and directorially driven, even past the point of reasonable." (32:25)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Andy (about Nate): “He is the perfect scion of a West Coast dynasty and, you know, has the right jawline to either run for office or go to jail forever for murder.” (23:14)
• Chris: “Pig conversation, the one that Alamo and Marshawn Lynch have, is Kirkland Tarantino.” (32:02)
• Andy: “The vision is incredibly haunting, and it feels very of the moment, claustrophobic and also agoraphobic.” (35:21)

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3. TV Now: What’s Good & What’s Safe?

Timestamps: 45:18–52:25

Key Points & Insights

• TV Power Rankings: Quick-fire rankings of current shows, with both hosts noting the lack of a clear “alpha”—Euphoria ranks high, but there’s little “urgency” in the slate.
• Complacency & Formula:
  • Chris and Andy note that shows like “Your Friends and Neighbors” or “Rooster” are becoming “dependable” but rarely risky, structured for renewals, and full of appealing but ‘safe’ casting.
• Emmy Churn: Networks and streamers plop out these shows "to get in under the wire for Emmy consideration."
• Snapshot of Industry:
  • Andy: “A relatively healthy snapshot of a moment… Even if we’re not engaging with a lot of it, or are we necessarily fired up about anything?” (50:17)

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4. Margot’s Got Money Troubles (Apple TV+)

Timestamps: 52:25–73:25

Key Points & Insights

• Adaptation Discussion:
  • Chris wonders aloud if TV is the right venue for adapting contemporary novels: “Ever since The Wire we’ve talked about TV as the great opportunity to novelize story… But I’m wondering if TV is the right place.” (53:59)
• The Series:
  • Elle Fanning stars as a Fullerton college student who has an unplanned pregnancy by her writing teacher (Michael Angarano).
  • The show revolves around her struggles—familial, financial, emotional—with Michelle Pfeiffer as her unreliable mother and Nick Offerman as her ex-wrestler father just out of rehab.
• Predictability Problem:
  • Chris: “I hate when scenes start and I know exactly how they’re going to end.” (55:27)
  • Andy critiques the story arc: "I do find the unexpected pregnancy story arc to be diminishing returns… dramatically, it’s increasingly inert." (57:59)
• Production Features Praised:
  • Length: “Episodes are like 36–42 minutes. Bravo. Huge. Let’s normalize this.” (59:22)
  • Production Design: Andy praises the “in between” realism of working-class Southern California, “doesn’t look like poverty porn, doesn’t look like a bowl of plums for no reason.”
• Performance/Character Notes:
  • Nick Offerman’s character is highlighted as “amazing”—more compelling than some of the show’s broader arcs.
  • Michelle Pfeiffer's multifaceted portrayal alternates “softer and more likable and nicer” than the initial introduction would suggest, perhaps a result of “the creeping reach of celebrity” and a drift toward likability.
• Tone Issues:
  • Andy: “I found the tone and the consistency of the characters to be all over the place… I wondered if it was the creeping reach of celebrity.” (62:19)
  • Later: "Everything seems agreeable and nice until it’s not for the purposes of the plot."

Broader Critique:

• The hosts return to the Amazon/Apple “safe show” problem:
  • Chris: “It’s about taking these incredibly vulnerable, destabilizing moments in characters’ lives, but creating the feeling that everything is fine, safe, and good. I don’t mind going either way, but… it’s hard to square the circle of ‘it’s safe.’” (65:19)
• Andy on Your Friends and Neighbors: “The biggest risk [Hamm’s character] has is maybe not being able to pay the tennis club membership. This is not really a problem. It’s a conceit for a television show.” (67:01)
• On the “cherry picking” of dark drama trappings, Andy says: “They create a clever opportunity and circumstance parachute… you go near the body in the bathtub, but then you’re not really responsible for it.” (68:33)

Memorable Quotes

• Chris: "There’s something fuzzy going on with me and with these shows where I’m just like, I’m not connecting with as many as I usually do." (73:13)
• Andy: "Not many stories are deserving of this much of our time, frankly." (73:25)
• Kaya (guest): “The tone of the book was a little bit off-putting to me, similarly to the tone of the show.” (71:09)

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5. Overall Tone & Closing Reflections

• Chris and Andy are witty, frequently self-deprecating, and open about both their “professional watcher” fatigue and their appreciation for risk-taking TV.
• Strong praise for Euphoria’s visual and narrative unpredictability (“no laundry in this show”).
• Skepticism remains toward the “smoothed out,” low-stakes Apple/Amazon franchise style, and the limits of the “adapt everything” gold rush in TV.

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Episode Highlight Reel (Quotes & Moments with Timestamps)

• Ketamine, Free Nachos, and Podcast Bit Referencing:
  “I was on ketamine at the time, but it’s possible.” – Andy (01:52)
• Marvel Crossover Snark:
  “They’re re-releasing [Endgame] to prime the pump, to remind people of how great this was with new footage…” – Andy (14:08)
• Euphoria, LA, and the American Dream:
  “There is a devil magnet underneath the San Andreas fault and everything is absolutely cynical and evil…” – Andy, on Euphoria’s OnlyFans plotline (40:21)
• Visual TV vs. Laundry-Folding:
  “There’s no laundry in the show… everything on screen, somebody had an idea. Sometimes too many ideas, but they had some ideas.” – Andy (34:42)
• “Safe” TV Critique:
  “It’s about taking these incredibly vulnerable, destabilizing moments in characters’ lives, but creating the feeling that everything is fine and safe and good and cushioning.” – Chris (65:19)
• Adapting Novels for TV, Shrinking Stakes:
  “Not many stories are deserving of this much of our time, frankly.” – Andy (73:25)

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode…

• The hosts serve up a spirited blend of industry insight, aesthetic critique, and cultural context. They’re most enlivened by work—like Euphoria—taking visual and tonal risks in an otherwise “safe” and comfort-seeking TV era. Margo’s Got Money Troubles is seen as likable, well-cast, and predictably “Apple”—glossy, safe, but lacking the surprise that makes for lasting conversation or urgency.
• The episode is chock full of relatable media fatigue, funny asides, and bright moments of admiration for TV that refuses to fit the prefab mold.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us. The intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn [e-mail]. I need support staff to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the Silver Slipper. Good, because he loves dance.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it's Andy Greenwald and I like free nachos.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think they have those?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't remember because I was on ketamine at the time, but it's possible.

[Chris Ryan]

I loved how you pronounce ketamine as like ketamine like a Jewish dentist from Philadelphia.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, I am much closer to a Jewish dentist from Philadelphia than I am to a habituate of the Silver Slipper. The truth is, you caught me. I started to back out of the comment 2/3 of the way through, but I was pot committed and frankly, that's how I live my life.

[Chris Ryan]

That's why I love you, man, because you fucking. When you're in, you're in. And we're in on Euphoria season three, which we will be talking about the second episode today as well as the first three episodes of the new Apple TV series. Margo's got money troubles. Problems or troubles?

[Andy Greenwald]

She's. Margo's got money. I think it's troubles. Again, no way of knowing it's troubles.

[Chris Ryan]

It's troubles. Did I say troubles?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but you Were thinking of Northern Ireland.

[Chris Ryan]

That's the problem is like, you know, Margot and the dairy girls is a much different thing. It's really good to see you. What a weekend for us.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, was it?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. No, I mean. I just mean what a weekend for United States of America. The NBA playoffs. The NHL playoffs.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I was. Sports wise. You're right. To switch allegiances. You should leave the Phillies hat at home.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm fine with the Phillies. I have the Phillies hat at home. There's no. There's no deviation from the plan. I know I told you on Thursday, wait for game 60. I'm getting miserable texts from you, but I'm getting actually, honestly, a whole variety of awesome texts.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I sent some pretty funny texts this weekend, if I do say so myself.

[Chris Ryan]

How are you doing? I have one news story for you today before we get into our TV talk, but I just want to do a temperature check.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great. Temperature feels good. The studio is nice.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. No, I mean like emotionally and spiritually and also just like artistically. Where's your soul at when you're. Did you search around this weekend and watch anything that was not necessarily an assignment, but just a pleasure?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, this weekend there was quite a lot on the TV docket.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, so. No, I was focused. I was just working for you all weekend.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I was actually going to say it might be good after we do beef on Thursday. So we're going to. I don't know that we're going to cover all of beef.

[Andy Greenwald]

But you have Beef with Beef. I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

I watched the first two episodes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

And I would definitely say that it's better than I thought it was going to be.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, you had. You were very.

[Chris Ryan]

All I did was say, this is what people are saying about it. And if it's true, watching eight hours of this is not necessarily what I want to do this weekend.

[Andy Greenwald]

Straw men everywhere coming up to me on the street, tears in their little straw eyes, saying, sir, sir, Beef season two is underwhelming.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, speaking of film production, today I went to go get my custom. Not custom, like they make it special for me, but like my coffee at my coffee shop, CR Blend. They were shooting somebody. They were shooting something there. Probably fucking. Nobody wants this or something. And Tim's working.

[Andy Greenwald]

Be nice.

[Chris Ryan]

I was just like, you guys gotta be kidding me. Of all. Of all the gin joints that you couldn't find in London or Budapest in Vancouver, you decided to take my coffee shop?

[Andy Greenwald]

Are you zagging on LA film production?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm very happy for Them. But like, this is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wait, hold on. You are being a NIMBY about Hollywood film production within Los Angeles. I think this is a wild new character.

[Chris Ryan]

It's just like, I have a few things that need to go right for me during any given day.

[Andy Greenwald]

All right, let's go through them.

[Chris Ryan]

Finding my. Getting my coffee.

[Andy Greenwald]

Huh?

[Chris Ryan]

Having the right kind of Nicorette.

[Andy Greenwald]

What, like, as opposed to off brand? Like what?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, off brand or like the new flavors that the Nicorette company, like, introduced and we talked about this. Like, it's just like I have to have like, everything kind of line up in the stimulation category and then we can get. We can get into our day.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right?

[Chris Ryan]

But if I. I show up in Sydney, Lumet, like, now, now, here's what you're going to do. And it's like, no, man, I need an Americano. And also, you know what I really don't understand?

[Andy Greenwald]

Snort the ketamine.

[Chris Ryan]

Why?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the new man.

[Chris Ryan]

Why do you guys have to shut shit down to shoot? Yeah. Be like a little guerrilla filmmaking style, you know? God. You know, get in there while I'm ordering.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sean Baker tangerine style iPhone. Horizontal.

[Chris Ryan]

Me and Anora. I'll just be getting my coffee.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I think that not as many people like passersby are historically not as open minded and artistic as you. Yeah, they do not.

[Chris Ryan]

That's prob. If the camera was on me, I'd just turn to it and go,

[Andy Greenwald]

he would frame mog. I'm workshopping that slang.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, you really like the mog thing. Why don't you get your book out? No, I want you to. You want to save it for the library after dark? Watch in the books and the stacks.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but what if you start, you know, maybe you have an anecdote to camera about a film you saw. I'll just get a little reading in.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. I did see a film this weekend and I wanted to recommend it to our viewers. It's the Christophers. All right. The new film from Steven Soderbergh in the news recently for saying that he was going to use AI visualize some of John Lennon's dreams in an upcoming documentary he has about John Lennon and Yoko Ono.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what he said.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. He was going to use AI to do some visual effects or some like, imaginative visualizations of like, John Lennon's dream life. And he was like. And I never would have been able to do this or would have been like a visual production house. Effects house. That cost me an arm and a leg. And now it's easy or not easy,

[Andy Greenwald]

but basically is this now under the rubric of like, he can now do it himself like he does everything else?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, I think he's always been like, how can I? What's, what's the. Not market inefficiency? Because I don't even think it's economic. I think he's just a tools guy. He's interested in tools.

[Andy Greenwald]

What if Mike had real magic and the magic was AI? Is that what he's doing?

[Chris Ryan]

You know what? Honestly, I think that, you know how they name all these goddamn AIs, like just, you know, Claude, you know what? If the AI was named Magic Mike,

[Andy Greenwald]

I would use it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, me too. If I was like, can you make me some furniture, man?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, yes. Can you? You still hang out with Olivia Munn? What's that like?

[Chris Ryan]

I did have one piece of actual Hollywood news for you. Christophers is fantastic. Ian McKellen, Michaela Cole. It's essentially a two hander chamber piece. It's about a. I don't know if it would be like a Damien Hurst, Julian Schnabel era. Like, I can't tell exactly. He seemed like an enfant terrible British painter. Now in his twilight living in Bloomsbury, it looks like hit close to home now.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm listening.

[Chris Ryan]

And lovely, lovely three story, four story house in Bloomsbury. And Michaela Cole is an art restorer slash painter who takes a job with Ian McKellen's aging artist to catalog some

[Andy Greenwald]

of his work in his home.

[Chris Ryan]

In his home.

[Andy Greenwald]

So easy access to Essex Market in Farringdon, all that great lunches.

[Chris Ryan]

But she is, I mean, Deco. I'm surprised Cafe Deco didn't come up.

[Andy Greenwald]

Deco's at the south end of it. But I would imagine that she would probably get the lunch deal at Quality Wines.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not a deal, dude. You wind up walking out smelling of liver when you, when you go to Quality Wines.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's not their lunch special.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, okay. What's the lunch special?

[Andy Greenwald]

We don't need to get into it. I'm just saying it's very reasonable. I want to. I'm interested in the job she took.

[Chris Ryan]

She takes it surreptitiously though, because she's in fact working for Julian's children who want her to finish a series of unfinished portraits called the Christophers of his lover that he did in the 90s. And they would fetch quite a bit of cash, but he has thus so far refused to finish them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Are you one of the Christophers?

[Chris Ryan]

No, sadly not. But it's. I Thought it was wonderful and it was just like a great, tight movie. It's gonna come up later when we talk about Margot Scott. Money troubles? Problems.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it's troubles.

[Chris Ryan]

God damn it. I really gotta get that right. You know what, Those two words probably have different meaning to different people again in Belfast.

[Andy Greenwald]

They do.

[Chris Ryan]

I wanted to let you know that Joe Russo, one of your favorite filmmakers.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, yes, yes. He's the visionary.

[Chris Ryan]

He appeared via Zoom at the St. Andrews Film Festival, which is in Scotland. And this is a film festival I believe. I've read about the Russos being patrons of before.

[Andy Greenwald]

What do you think that is?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. I really don't. Any other podcaster would probably be like, well, you have to understand.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was waiting for that.

[Chris Ryan]

But honestly, I feel like I. Sometimes it's okay to be like, I have no idea. But I've read like them. I've read bits and pieces of them appearing at this festival. I mean, he did this via Zoom to talk about Doom Day. Just do a little.

[Andy Greenwald]

What a. What a journey this has been.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm trying to do a cool, like intro to this. It's essentially that, you know, they're making Doomsday and now they're going to re release Endgame.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

In September, I think, with either re. Contextualize old footage, I imagine, or perhaps new footage from Doomsday that they are putting into End game.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

But to put Endgame now on the Doomsday narrative rails.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And I thought this was really interesting because first of all, it is kind of a tacit admission that the last six years of seven years of Marvel has kind of not worked.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

Between the multiversal shenanigans and Kang and Jonathan Majors and some of the other things that they've tried that haven't worked, and the fact that Fantastic Four. I mean, Fantastic Four is obviously going to be a major part about this, but was not maybe living up to people's expectations.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you think about the idea of a filmmaker going back and tweaking something in mid air to connect it to another part of the franchise?

[Andy Greenwald]

Greedo shot first, but they never actually

[Chris Ryan]

made that canonical, did they?

[Andy Greenwald]

Who's they in this case?

[Chris Ryan]

Disney? George Lucas?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. If he made it, I mean, he touched it, it's canon.

[Chris Ryan]

But the point is of like a Star wars story.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. I mean, like, has this been done before?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think what you're asking is interesting because in terms of like tweaking a prior movie to retcon it into alignment with A sequel. I'd be hard pressed to think of an example of that. I mean, I think Disney especially like the animated movies like Frozen 2, a movie I know that's near and dear to your heart.

[Chris Ryan]

Honestly, this is where your expertise.

[Andy Greenwald]

I talk to my kids. We talk about this a lot. Because one of the things that I find really interesting about that movie from like a process standpoint was the entire movie is created out of whole cloth of a larger overarching plot that 100% didn't exist at any point during the decade plus development of Frozen.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Where they like retconned that the parents like. In the opening of the first movie, the parents went off on a boat adventure. And sadly, spoiler for the first 30 seconds of Frozen did not survive the second movie suggests that they were actually going on a quest to discover the origin of their daughter's powers when they were sunk.

[Chris Ryan]

It's suggested that they told the daughter it was a boat. Like a cruise collide or.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, we know kings and queens are always going on boat trips. Probably.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, you know, we've all got troubles.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But no, but to answer your question, Frozen was not re released with swashbuckling footage of the dead Parish attempting to.

[Chris Ryan]

And I don't know the extent to which they are gonna tweak Endgame. I think it's a pretty savvy idea, although I'm surprised we're finding out about it via Zoom in Scotland instead of like a big Cinemacon announcement or like a big, maybe even a trailer for the re release of Endgame to prep you for doomsday. Well, a couple that's coming.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Doomsday. There's doomsday footage has been screened. Yes, they played it at CinemaCon. It has not released yet, but every single detail of it has been leaked. And I think it was intentionally designed to push back on your, I think, quite accurate observation. The last six plus years have been a complete wash. The footage features many characters from this cursed phase engaging with each other like it's Shang Chi fighting Florence Pugh.

[Chris Ryan]

No fighting Gambit. I read the same recap, bro.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a bummer.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I pushed the Atlantic magazine out of the way and I said, let me read this blog post describing the doomsday.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was a text I sent you. I said, attention. A little worried about things at FBI hq. Thoughts? Question mark. You didn't respond.

[Chris Ryan]

Then I wrote back, flyers.

[Andy Greenwald]

Go flyers. So I don't know, but they are also. I found it interesting that they are doing a really Interesting thing where they are trying to convey complete confidence that they have this thing in the bag. And so there is a beginning drumbeat of this tested better than anything since Endgame. They're dropping all these things. Like we had 40 actors on set standing in a blank room. You know what they drew in the backgrounds. Later they are re releasing one of the. Was Endgame like top three most successful movies of all time. They're re releasing that to prime the pump, to remind people of how great this was with new footage to get people in the theaters. They are claiming that they don't need the IMAX screens that Dune three. Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

Because they're making a proprietary technology of like so that it always shows in the way.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's Infinity Vision.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can you just make a proprietary format?

[Chris Ryan]

I hope it makes Euphoria Season 4 in Infinity Vision so it'll go on forever.

[Andy Greenwald]

The episodes I think are made in Infinity Vision.

[Chris Ryan]

Honestly, they breeze right by me. Incredible. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, yeah. I don't know. I mean, what's your doomsday temperature change?

[Chris Ryan]

I immediately started thinking about other franchises that have perhaps made some wrong turns and filmmakers going back and tweaking them. So the first franchise that comes to mind is Star Wars. And they've had this largely stalled out movie production development process where they've given out all these deals to people to make trilogies and to make one off movies that haven't really come to light or haven't come to fruition. They've continued to kind of mine these in between years between the trilogies and to some success. But I think that the thing that's missing is the feeling of forward momentum and the feeling of the unknown. Because any kind of well versed Star wars fan can watch one of these shows and just be like, yes. And then this has to happen because this happened. Star wars legendarily does not mess with canon. Marvel is a little bit more like, guess what everybody was dreaming that day. You know, like, well.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or it was a different universe.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And that's. They've been playing with that for a few years. But if, if you were doing Star wars and if you were like, hey, why don't we just go back to right before Force Awakens? Or why don't we go back to right after the Last Jedi and just do this? And basically, I mean, it sounds like Steven Soderbergh's the Hunt for Ben Solo movie was in its own way, like, well, what if he wasn't dead? And that was a bridge too far for Bob Iger. But it is kind of interesting that, like the same company is like, yeah, we'll tweak a little bit of endgame and probably like, yada yada, some of the stuff that's happened in between.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the main difference here is that in the case of Marvel, they are going back to their last greatest success and just basically moving the off ramp in a different direction.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, I should know. Steven Soderbergh wanted to revisit the last Skywalker.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, yeah, because those Star wars movies.

[Chris Ryan]

The rise of Skywalker.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right. I think in retrospect, those movies are not thought of fondly, but particularly they are not just thought of fondly. They are like ground zero for a lot of the toxicity of fandom and fandom's relationship to the projects that they love or that they love to hate. And so it would just be a minefield to go back because it wouldn't just be like, let me pick up on the really cool adventures of Admiral Holdo or whatever Laura Dern's name was. It was like, let us pretend none of that woke shit that Rian Johnson did ever happened. Please attribute that quote to Chris because he needs a couple dings in his mando armor online.

[Chris Ryan]

Come on.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm just saying.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when prime, same day delivery, has your back, getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably, so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. Was your reading of the Doomsday trailer, Were you excited?

[Andy Greenwald]

The scrolls? Not the scrolls. The scrolls. I'm choosing to be very excited about this movie. Why not?

[Chris Ryan]

Great. That's fantastic.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to know how you're feeling about the X Men casting rumors. I know Van doesn't like it when we talk about that, but your girl Odessa is being circled for Rogue.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't know that.

[Andy Greenwald]

And our guy, Sir Dunk Peter Claffey is rumored to be Beast.

[Chris Ryan]

But they haven't gotten Cyclops. No, they haven't gotten the new Wolverine. Wake me with that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is there gonna be a new Wolverine?

[Chris Ryan]

So old ass Hugh Jackman is gonna be hanging out with Peter Claffey and Odessa O Zion.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, we are now on the other end of These cross generational

[Chris Ryan]

Odessa O Zion, like she was also in the Troubles.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that they are going to slow walk Wolverines. I think they are gonna go back to some of the original X Men before he.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, cool. Keep me up to date on that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I will. Hold on. Breaking news. No, let's talk about Euphoria.

[Chris Ryan]

Euphoria, Episode two, America My Dream. The title of the episode is spoken by Cassie, played by Sydney Sweeney's housekeeper. At one point, when she's taking some content shots.

[Andy Greenwald]

Say her name. Juana.

[Chris Ryan]

Wanna. Well, it comes up a lot because there's a lot of jokes made at her expense. Sure are. This one is a tale of two or three different TV shows, I think. Or. Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really useful conversation that I think also bleeds into Margot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, so let's.

[Chris Ryan]

Because it's about like tone and it's about making a couple of different things at once. But I think for Euphoria, personally, for me, it works.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, let's also preface this by saying for people who are just. This is their first ever episode of the Watch.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is my second ever episode of Euphoria.

[Chris Ryan]

And I. I gotta admit to you something. I'm about 70% in on this bit. But the number. The interest level I have in this bit shot up last night when you sent me one text message.

[Andy Greenwald]

I had a question I've tried to

[Chris Ryan]

avoid asking at 9:45pm and I was just like, tomorrow. Okay, what are we gonna talk about? And Andy sends a text message that just goes, is Rue canonically gay?

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't know. And I. I thought I should, you know, be prepared with that information.

[Chris Ryan]

Canonically is what got me.

[Andy Greenwald]

I. Because first of all, I need to know who she's romantically interested in before she returns in Doomsday.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, yes, yes. Ru is canonically gay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you. Was that so hard?

[Chris Ryan]

But it is an interesting situation for you because I have a question. Now we're going to talk a lot about the Rue stuff because that remains the thing that I think I am most attached to about this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think I should keep a list of questions I almost ask you and deliver them live on the podcast?

[Chris Ryan]

Absolutely. Yeah. I am also not necessarily the keeper of Euphoria lore, nor do I think Euphoria is being overly sort of sanctimonious about like everything that's happened in these characters lives adding up to something, which I appreciated. That being said, I wanted to start in an a stranger place than maybe you thought I would for this episode, which Is Nate the Jacob Lordy character who is so far been portrayed as a sort of flustered. I'm in over my head. But I'm ultimately seemingly a good guy who likes to get his work done. And I just don't have the money right now for $50,000 worth of flowers from my wedding. But I've got an alcoholic dad who's also quite a sex pest. I have my fiance Cassie, who, you know, is making certain demands of me

[Andy Greenwald]

and making certain content and making content.

[Chris Ryan]

And also he's in hock to seemingly a underworld figure for about half a mil.

[Andy Greenwald]

Underworld figure in the sense that he services bodies to the underworld literally. He doesn't need to be like a

[Chris Ryan]

funeral out $500,000 and is like, in a week, that will be $600,000 or whatever. Then that's.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, you think he has some untoward.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I think the interest rate is maybe above Wells Fargo's, for instance.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think Sam Levinson is blowing the lid off this whole coffin thing.

[Chris Ryan]

But guess what, man.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Nate's kind of a piece of shit. And I didn't know if you knew that.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, he seemed like a good guy.

[Chris Ryan]

No, not really. He's pretty. Pretty dark Prince.

[Andy Greenwald]

One thing about me, I'm very credulous of people. I take them as a. I was

[Chris Ryan]

wondering what you thought. I was wondering, like, there's a line in this episode when Juana, the aforementioned Wanna, the housekeeper, is going through every single thing from their barbecue.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And is like, would you like to keep this? Would you like to save this? Would you like to save that? And at one point he goes, wanna, I'm going to kill you.

[Andy Greenwald]

He did say that.

[Chris Ryan]

Now he says it very dryly. It's a laugh line in the episode think. But that's Nate's vibe. Like season one, two. Nate can get pretty fucked up.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's very. We mentioned this last week, but there's a Brady Sonellis aspect to it, that he is a little American Psycho. Like, he is the. The perfect scion of a West coast dynasty and, you know, has the right jawline to either run for office or to go to jail forever for murder.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And so I was curious whether or not you picked up on that as this being your only your second episode of. Of Euphoria.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't. Because this episode. Well, I'll say two things. One part of his storyline is probably at the bottom of my power rankings because this is. We're now two for two in him voicing something that I have to believe is near and dear to creator Sam Levinson's heart, which is that all Californians of good standing should care about PNZ laws.

[Chris Ryan]

Why can't you separate and how difficult

[Andy Greenwald]

it is to build here?

[Chris Ryan]

Why can't you separate art from artist?

[Andy Greenwald]

Literally, the guy's like all California. It's like the pit. He like turns the camera and is like, do you know plan and zoning regulations?

[Chris Ryan]

The Republican. Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is how we win at podcasting. Say it slower to the camera.

[Chris Ryan]

Actually, women are allowed to make content about whatever they want.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I mean, there you go.

[Chris Ryan]

That is sort of what this show is doing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I, I don't know if I agree that all Californians should be worried that it's challenging to build here.

[Chris Ryan]

How do you feel about the zoning laws of this, of this great state?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's not my top 20 of current concerns about living in this great state. No, it's really not. But then again, I'm not know part of a real estate empire.

[Chris Ryan]

The ironic thing is I do, I don't think it's lost that Nate is complaining about starting a, like a somewhat nefariously funded, you know, he's like an honest businessman. It's like Nate's the furthest from, you know, I, I, he's like have these guys move sand around when the developer, when the investors come.

[Andy Greenwald]

The reason I've liked my experience watching the show cold is because it is never boring. And I actually feel like, and this is obviously self fulfilling, but that my experiment is supporting itself. That like there's very little that I need to be standing on to just be present with these characters as they are going about whatever it is they are building towards in this undoubtedly final season of the show. That said, your question brings up one thing that I, that I was picking up on, which is as certain threads. Threads. Currents bubble up, some of them are tonal, but some of them feel canonical or biographical in ways that I'm at sea with. And it's hard to.

[Chris Ryan]

The Maddy, so.

[Andy Greenwald]

Exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

Love triangle. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Absolutely no idea what any of that was about.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Nor did I honestly have any idea what Maddie was, who she was and what she was doing. I found that less compelling.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you look it up on Wikipedia?

[Andy Greenwald]

I did. I didn't. I was reading the new Jonathan Franzen novel at the time.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you have it with you by any chance?

[Andy Greenwald]

I do, but I'm pretty locked in right now and I'll let you know if that changes. And people watching at home will see as my interest level dips in the show, as I Retreat to the warm embrace of literature. My true home. But, yeah, so the backstory of that was a little bit confounding. And I. I guess I'll say that the Cassie Nate relationship, as far as I can tell, I don't actually care what they were like in high school. Them as starter pack.

[Chris Ryan]

He used to date Matty in high school, sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

But them now as a starter pack, upwardly mobile would be nouveau riche couple living in this hellscape. Works for me. It's fine.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that the show. It's interesting to hear you say that. I think that the show is very much depicting them as frozen in amber out in Calabasas somewhere and not truly part of, like, the kind of zeitgeist and maybe even tapped into the money stream that runs through Los Angeles.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right. Cassie is very excited to be on the roof of the peninsula.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And Whereas, like, what was that? Magenta? Fuchsia. What was her top? What color was that?

[Andy Greenwald]

I was not staring at her top in that scene. I have to say. I was not focused on that because.

[Chris Ryan]

What were you looking at?

[Andy Greenwald]

The Hildebrandt family in 1971. Chicago. They're the protagonist of Crossroads. Were. It was pretty interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you like this episode of tv?

[Andy Greenwald]

I actually. I really did enjoy it, but I really enjoy it because the first of all, I do like the chaos theory approach. Sorry, does that make me the bad guy? There are other things on screen, you know, I am enjoying full stop. Like we said last week, I'm enjoying Zendaya. I don't know what's going on with this character or where she's headed, but. But I just think it's pretty funny. And I also really like that I have no sense of how much time is passing at any moment in an episode of the show. So the fact that she goes to this Silver slipper Club. I have no idea where this is either.

[Chris Ryan]

It looks like it's Antelope Valley, Palmdale, Lancaster. I don't. Yeah, maybe Nevada. I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Unclear. But she immediately just starts running shit there, and it's just like hanging with everyone. I found that to be kind of fun.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I also have to say that I'm interested in the way. Okay, so wait one step back. During the long gestation period for this season, we had heard all these stories about the type of show that it would euphoria if it were to return, how it would return. Yes. And the one that obviously we fixated on was, oh, it's gonna be a private detective show. Watching this episode particularly, there were moments when Sam Levinson moves the camera or sets up scenes in ways that suggest the things that interest him may have outstripped the bounds of the show that he's making.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

So when Mattie arrives at the Peninsula and it does this, like, wide shot of her crossing the boulevard, and it's like classic Hollywood noir. And I'm interested in that. And I kind of like the idea of him casting his Hollywood fantasia. Whatever. This is spectacular. With not just the actors from his previous high school piece, but. But the characters of his high school piece who are now playing very different roles in the movie he wishes he was making. When the show so far has elevated to me this season, that's what he's been doing, and that's when what's on screen and what clearly is in his head seem to align. The moments that I'm less interested in are on the margins and lead to me almost sending you texts, like I almost did in the first 10 minutes of this episode, asking if this blonde woman coming to LA during COVID was the Cassie origin story. Didn't she go to high school with them? Because again, maybe it's. I wasn't looking at the right part of her. I didn't. I thought that was Sydney Sweeney.

[Chris Ryan]

No, it was not. You were just staring at her eyes. I mean, just locked in. So it's interesting to hear you say that. I probably give this show credit because it's doing something that I rather enjoy when TV shows at least effort to become. Which is the. The Bucket show that allows a showrunner or creator to basically be like, on the side of the bucket, it says Euphoria. Or on the side of the bucket, it says Leftovers or the Americans or whatever.

[Andy Greenwald]

Industry.

[Chris Ryan]

Industry. But we're going to make it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

A receptacle for everything that we're interested in. And for Sam Levinson, obviously, he is interested in the American dream, the American debt, the absolute attraction, repulsion nature of California to the point where he talks about its geological evil magnet that's underneath

[Andy Greenwald]

the big magnet, under the. So attracting evil.

[Chris Ryan]

It's spoken by a character named Angel.

[Andy Greenwald]

I like that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I think he's obviously playing with a bunch of different styles of filmmaking within this. And for him, you know, if Zendaya Jacob Elordi and Sydney Sweeney are in something, 20 million people about are gonna watch it every week. So it's gonna be this big. This big thing. And he could kind of then get away with making a spaghetti western mystery movie if he wants to, or A like, pop art almost commentary on exploitation slash. Also a piece of exploitation itself. I think that's fascinating. And I think also, like, this show is not boring. And I've been struggling for the last couple of months with the shows that aren't ones that you can tell that Andy and I have really positively responded to that. It's hard for me to get by on like a 65 or a 70 with a show like, it's like, it's pretty good.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like, this show, like, is exciting to watch. I don't know what's gonna happen next. Yes, there are things that perhaps, like, offend people. And there are things that I feel like I've watched that pig conversation like the one that Alamo and Marshawn lynch have in any number of Tarantino and Tarantino ripoff movies. Like, there's definitely, like, homage that borders

[Andy Greenwald]

on this was Kirkland Tarantino, sure.

[Chris Ryan]

But I, I, I just give it a ton of credit for holding my interest and for being, I know, I, I, I don't want this to be clipped, but stimulating.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'd like to be clipped, but connected to something we were talking about about two, three minutes earlier. I'll, I'll come into the, the studio with you guys later.

[Chris Ryan]

It's, it's, the show is stimulating.

[Andy Greenwald]

I, I never thought I would say this, but I understand Sam Esmail better. No. When our friend Sam would come on the podcast and do his top 10 list, often what he would rail against would be, you know, what he was joking about as laundry folding shows. And he would praise things that were aesthetically bold and directorially driven, even past the point of what I, and maybe sometimes we felt were reasonable or, like, entertaining or even generous in terms of the effort they were making to include an audience. Now, Sam, despite being very successful and very good at making television, historically, doesn't love or watch a lot of television. So he's less interested in the things that we praise for hitting familiar, comforting, technically excellent beats, like the Pit, for example, or the story connecting the bits on Mad Men, where despite pushing things forward visually and thematically, they are just a family in the workplace at the end of the day. All of that being said, the moment we're in with television, where everything is received through this lens and viewed through this lens, that everything is excellent and everything is prestige, whether it's because of the money apple or whomever has spent on it or the actors who are in it, were used to seeing them in films when in fact a lot of the meat of television shows from minute 14 to minute 48 are laundry folding. You know, this will come up with Margot as well. I think it can be elite laundry folding, but it's laundry folding. And the best thing that I want to say at the end of this long digression is there's no laundry in the show. And if I had been watching it with any laundry in mind over the past few years, I think that I would be having a lot harder time just breezing along. But because I have no stakes here, I like the fact that I don't have any idea where it's going and that everything on the screen, somebody had an idea. Sometimes too many ideas maybe, and too many ideas piled on top of each other, but they had some ideas.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I also, I mean, frankly, find the photography of Southern California and the desert that he's doing to be as exciting as anything that happens inside of this silver slipper. Like, I think that he's doing really, really beautiful work in. In being evocative of the entirety of the Southern California region.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, Southern California, not LA in a way.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, relationship to Los Angeles. And this idea of suburbs and city, it's almost antiquated. Or at least because I moved here so late in life, it never really resonated with me as, like, you know, you growing up in the Valley, but going into the city for fun, like, that doesn't scan for me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

But it is obviously something as an LA kid that he is thinking about.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, maybe as an LA kid, he's thinking about that, but also maybe as an LA rich person, he's thinking about it the same way. Like, you know, the great Kanye song no More Parties in la, which is basically about how annoying it is to drive from Calabasas to a party. Super relatable. But, like, this is a show built by people who exist only in siloed spaces and only ever traverse through the middle of the city, either ironically, or being driven in an air condition. Like, and I'm not saying that Rue's perspective is of a rich person, but I think the vision of it, which is not to invalidate the vision, it is incredibly haunting, and it feels very of the moment, and it's claustrophobic and also agoraphobic in equal measure, but everything about it is siloed and I think intentionally. And I feel like that aesthetically is kind of interesting to me that Cassie goes from her, you know, golden prison somewhere out in the hills, and where she goes that's exciting to her is the roof of a building we never See her actually touch the ground and suddenly she's around people again. Or at the very end when Rue goes to visit Jules, who's a character I've never seen before or encountered before.

[Chris Ryan]

Jules is a major, major, major character

[Andy Greenwald]

on the show once again, like absolute siloed somewhere at the penthouse of a building with no one else around.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, a lot of Jules and Rue, this is. Jules has historically been the sort of, I would say the love of Dru's life. But in some ways you wonder whether she is just an object of her kind of fascination and affection more than it is like a life partner kind of thing. Just because of the way they are talking at the end of that episode, a lot of their romance tends to happen in an almost fantasy world, at least to my eye visually. And you could see in the flashback of Jules time at art school when Rue goes to visit her, it's taking place in a loft that looks like a soundstage basically, and that it's like a Hollywood romance. And her high rise apartment, luxury apartment that she's living in that Jules is living in at the end has like the fakest of fake sort of nightscapes outside of the window. So I think from scene to scene and from storyline to storyline and from coupling to coupling throughout the show, it almost has a completely different visual language. It's to a credit to the show credit that you can have something like Sydney Sweeney's bubblegum, like far out, like pop, pop, pop la, the sort of glam luxury night noir of Jules's LA Ruse Desertscape. And that you can go from like Sydney Sweeney's pretty comic arc so far this season to Rue in a bathroom with another woman telling her that her best friend just died of a fentanyl overdose and that it's being kept from her. And then that woman spiraling out on drugs.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who's the character who I met last night, who I'm forgetting, who's angel management manager, Nate's ex, Maddie. And Maddie's storyline, which is more or less the Rachel Sennett storyline from I Love la, you know, which is just like the day to day nuts and bolts of managing this crazy town, you know. But I say that not I say that to support your point that there's all these different visions of it ultimately in terms of vision, why I am like good faith enjoying this exercise is because the shot of Rue begging her mother to come home while a gas station light, the gas station goes out behind her. It's an astonishing image. It's a beautiful image. She's Acting the hell out of it. And every so often, every time the show starts to trip into something where I want to take out my stern little red pen and mark it up, it does something that is genuinely moving and quite eye catching and breathtaking and beautiful. And that's enough to keep me going, I would say, largely. And we don't need to segue now, although we could. And you don't need to have watched both episodes for this point to be relevant and not spoilery. Euphoria and Margot have both staked out some terrain on Onlyfans island.

[Chris Ryan]

And what a moment for Onlyfans.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great. I'm just glad the little guys are succeeding. As in, well, the guy who made

[Chris Ryan]

only fans is dead.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, no. Did he set everything up? So are his children gonna benefit? Look, probate court. Probate court is a mess, you know, so I hope that he had his affairs involved.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it was the only fans guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it was.

[Andy Greenwald]

But we don't know about who's.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know who's taking. The little heirs are. Yeah, I mean, in some ways we all are. We're all sharing in the. The wealth because Onlyfans redistributes. You know, it goes back to the content creators.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, really, Karl Marx was only a fan of that kind of redistribution of wealth.

[Chris Ryan]

We could get into more though, if you'd like.

[Andy Greenwald]

But we don't need to segue necessarily. I just wanted to make the point that the Euphoria vision of this is in keeping with. There is a devil magnet underneath the San Andreas fault and everything is absolutely cynical and evil and this is just a turbocharged vacuum attached to what was already a soul sucking enterprise of celebrity and fame and devaluation of human spirit. And then you have the Margot vision of it, which is. Isn't that neat. We can all take advantage of this and become better people and pay for diapers.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

And. And I would like to posit, I know this is a little radical, that somewhere in the middle of these two aesthetic viewpoints there might be some nuance and a even more interesting view.

[Chris Ryan]

I wish you luck with your third way.

[Andy Greenwald]

My third way. I'm gonna do the Andrew Yang storyline of OnlyFans clip that. I dare you.

[Chris Ryan]

Trying to think if I had anything else really to say about Euphoria. There's not. Obviously Eric Dane. This is his final performance on camera.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think he will appear in other episodes? Do we know?

[Chris Ryan]

I do. I do think that this season seems to be building towards this wedding. I've not we have not watched ahead, but obviously the wedding is an opportunity to bring together the entire cast in a way that I don't know necessarily we will have otherwise. And I would imagine, given everybody's, you know, release schedules in the major, you know, movie theaters, that he shot Zendaya stuff and sometimes Alexis Demme would be on set for that, and he shot Sydney Sweeney's stuff with Jacob Elordi. And, you know, like, I think he kind of had to work around a lot of schedules to do this. And so maybe some of the separation is representative of that. But then again, you know, you're not necessarily always around people you went to high school with, even if you live in the same city. So I think it is a legitimate depiction of their lives, even if it doesn't necessarily feel like they're all on the same TV show all the time.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have not seen what people have. Many people have. Many people celebrated Eric Dane's performance on the show, that it was very different than what he'd done before. And. But even without that knowledge, I thought this was pretty great.

[Chris Ryan]

I have to say that him being vulnerable enough about his illness. But that took his. I believe it was ms, correct?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, he had Lou Gehrig's als.

[Chris Ryan]

Sorry, ALS to take that and be like, what I'll do is have. We can have Cal. Basically be always four beers deep and seated.

[Andy Greenwald]

And they seemingly treated him with dignity and gave him the opportunity to deliver a very good performance that was not in any way like a. It wasn't just like a moist eyed tribute.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Here you go, big guy. Thanks, man. Yeah, it was really cool, honestly. Just the Zendaya note that I will hit every week, which is that she's compulsively watchable. She communicates so much of the necessary ambiguity that should come with a show like this because it would be easy to take everything at face value. But obviously her trepidation. So as you obviously probably have deduced, the Rue character has been through several rehab and intervention situations, including just absolutely astonishing intervention in second season. Her dropping angel off at this sort of looked like K town, sort of fly by night rehab facility. That didn't quite scream on the level to me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it seemed like she was gonna be.

[Chris Ryan]

It seemed like a way station. It seemed like where you. You stash people that you don't want out in the world for whatever reason,

[Andy Greenwald]

potentially never want them to appear again.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And the lighting of that whole scene and her promising her that she was gonna come pick her up in a couple of weeks, I thought was great and that they never come out and have Ru say, like, this place doesn't seem like a reputable facility. But I'm gonna look into it. It's just everything is looks. Everything is the texture of the plexiglass between the person who's just playing video games behind the counter. It's just really good.

[Andy Greenwald]

The one counter to your beautiful bucket analogy that I generally agree with in terms of ongoing television shows. Because honestly, nothing is worse than a show in which the creative team behind it has lost interest in what they are doing and going through the motions. I'll say that even as, you know, potentially overheated and Pulp Fiction coded as the whole Alamo Silver Slipper storyline is I would be really interested in. This is the first season of that show of Zendaya working at this place in the middle of nowhere.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Zendaya's strip club. Michael Clayton. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, when you put it like that. But yeah, like that. That pops. And the rest of the stuff is interesting, but it is not that.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm just gonna throw up a quick note here, which is. I was trying to do a power poll of shows that are on right now. This is like a post pit rooster, dtf so stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

We were very busy watching all three of those shows.

[Chris Ryan]

I think I gave DTF a college try. I. I have not received. There's never been a show. I've received more.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Contentious emails about basically insisting that I. That, like, I did not get it and that I should try again.

[Andy Greenwald]

People want Joe Russo to go back and change the ending to podcast. Like they're changing Endgame.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So that you become a big DTF fan.

[Chris Ryan]

So Bill often does. Bill Simmons often does like, power polls in the midst of an NBA season where he's just like, I'm just going to kind of go from bottom to top here. Or from top to bottom and. And rank these shows we have not watched. Maybe enough of this to do a hearty power poll. For instance, I have not watched any of the Miniature Wife with Elizabeth banks and Matthew McFadden.

[Andy Greenwald]

Neither have I.

[Chris Ryan]

But Margo's got money. Money troubles, your friends and neighbors Euphoria Beef. Big Mistakes, which is the new series from Dan Levy on Netflix, which honestly wasn't that bad. I watched two episodes of that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look at you doing the work.

[Chris Ryan]

Honestly, it's like an end of the evening kind of like before we fall asleep thing. And I was like, this is pretty. This is pretty good. Yeah. Bandy, which we talked about last week. Rashaunt's New Martinique based.

[Andy Greenwald]

What were the numbers on our Bandy convo?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. It's still in the top 10 in Netflix. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes you gotta look beyond and your echo chamber, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[Chris Ryan]

Hacks, which I have not discussed. Have you discussed it when I wasn't looking?

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. Abbott elementary, which I still watch and still love.

[Andy Greenwald]

Huge in my house. But we're behind.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

The kids are watching it on Hulu.

[Chris Ryan]

A season we're behind, and then two AMC shows. One, which I have often said, to my own detriment, I have not watched Dark Winds, but I want to. And half. I was half thinking about just Euphoria playing a Greenwald and just jumping in on season four, and then if going back and the Audacity, which is a new series with Billy Magnuson and Zach Galifianakis.

[Andy Greenwald]

I feel like we owe that a

[Chris Ryan]

watch because we run AMC as a network.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, no, we're gonna be inheriting it, and we're gonna have to make the decision about Green Lighting season two.

[Chris Ryan]

That seems to be on your mind.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow. It's heavy. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm trying to accrue powers of attorney as much as possible across, you know, any field in relation to my parents.

[Chris Ryan]

Like that responsibility for me to be.

[Andy Greenwald]

To have your power of attorney.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You'd just be letting all my doctors know. Dnr.

[Andy Greenwald]

Listen, he's here for a good time.

[Chris Ryan]

Not a long time because he tore his labrum weightlifting. But don't take any extraordinary measures to keep this guy on the table.

[Andy Greenwald]

By all means, compliment him on what it's done to his physique. No, I don't want that.

[Chris Ryan]

Smoke in your estimation. I mean, obviously, I think, like, against all odds, Euphoria would seemingly be your number one right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Although I. You know, I'm approaching beef with excitement with open and optimism with an.

[Chris Ryan]

With an open and an empty stomach.

[Andy Greenwald]

Empty stomach, big appetite.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So this is an interesting moment. I.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's no clear alpha, is what you're saying.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I. And I think also with something like your Friends and Neighbors, which has already been renewed for season three.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And I could see being a four, five, six. For as long as Hamm wants to do this kind of thing, you kind of get to a point where there's some of these shows, and you're like, this is gonna be what it is, and I will. If I like it, I'll keep watching it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Before we even answer the question, you're Smartly asking. I will say that this is an interesting snapshot of kind of what TV is now in a way that it hasn't yet.

[Chris Ryan]

This is what I wanted to get into. This is the stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

A number of the shows you're mentioning, especially shows like your Friends and Neighbors and. And Rooster, those are ongoing shows. They're designed to be ongoing shows. They're going to be greenlit before the first seasons or current seasons have ended. And similarly, the other types of shows that we're talking about in the margins, Margot and Stuff. If Apple had its way, there is always going to be a Margot like show on the air. And we will discuss and debate the merits of the show in particular, which I think is worthy of our conversation. But. But what's interesting about all the shows we're talking about is that they are starry at a certain level and they are safe on a certain level. And I don't mean that judgmentally when we talk about them individually. I'm happy to be judgmental about their attitude towards risk and storytelling, sure. But they are dependable and even like your Friends and Neighbors in the season three announcement. And this wasn't a surprise that it was getting renewed again even before the second season premiered. Much like last year. They said it's coming back and James Marsden will be one of the Friends and Neighbors this year. Michelle Monahan is joining Friends and Neighbors. And who better to represent that certain type of affable contemporary television plus celebrity than those two Very, very high approval ratings. Absolutely good in basically everything dependable and feel like the people who have always been on these shows, even if they haven't been before and even if they're only doing an arc.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is a relatively healthy snapshot of a moment. Moment that even if we're not engaging with a lot of it or are we necessarily fired up about anything and

[Chris Ryan]

I think some of it is is firing these shows all off around one another to get in under the wire for Emmy consideration.

[Andy Greenwald]

Usually that window ends around May 31st.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So the next couple of weeks will also be busy. I'll be curious to revisit this list after we've gotten a chance to maybe watch some more of Beef. Maybe the Audacity. I think we'll pick hacks up as a Where are we at as the final season comes to a close, kind of. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie? Night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime Same Day Delivery adds your back, getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same Day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms Apply this message is brought to you by Apple Card. Hey, you could be earning 2% daily cash back on that purchase and that one and even that one. That's because Apple card users earn 2% daily cash back on every purchase, including everyday items they buy online or in store when using their Apple Card. With Apple Pay, not an Apple Card customer, you can apply in the Wallet app on iPhone subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Terms and more at Apple Co Benefits the playoffs

[Andy Greenwald]

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[Chris Ryan]

tools thing let's talk about Margot A show from David E. Kelly. It's adapted from a novel by Rufy thorpe. It's only 2024 novel so it's been quick turnaround from from page to screen.

[Andy Greenwald]

She's been recommending to me as a bard of Cottage County.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you know Rufe Thorpe at all?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I read. I read this book.

[Chris Ryan]

There you go. This is actually useful. And Kya, if you feel like it, please jump in. I don't have a prompt for you. I felt mid about it. That's how I feel about this show. But here's what I want to ask you. You know, ever since the Wire we've talked about TV as the great opportunity to novelize story, to tell long form stories. And I think now we've kind of bled into especially since Apple has thrown its weight around in the adaptation space and Amazon as well and a bunch of these places are now like just buying up novels that seem to have a viable screen story for tv. If you gave me Elle Fanning, Michelle Pfeiffer and Nick Offerman and if you even gave me a Fullerton English student unexpectedly gets pregnant by her creative writing teacher or her writing teacher and decides to keep the baby. I don't know if in like a hundred years I would have come up with this specific mixture of character and tone that this show did. And I wonder whether or not it's just because it's like we're adapting this book and that's what the book is like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

But I'm starting to wonder whether or not, like, TV is the right place to adapt novels, because this, to me is like a perfectly fine example of, like, in the 1996, this would have been an adaptation of a Mona Simpson novel that lots of people liked.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can you imagine Curtis Hansen's Margot's Got Money Troubles?

[Chris Ryan]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Andy Greenwald]

Would have been very enjoyable. And you know what? It would have been better than anyone expected and really satisfying.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And I. There's something about this. You were talking about the safety of it. I think we were talking about the element of surprise that euphoria packs in to each scene, to each shot.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

There's part of it is because I know what is going to happen on this show because you watched a trailer for it. So you know that Margot gets into OnlyFans and you know that her, her father was an ex professional wrestler who's gotten out of rehab to come back to her.

[Andy Greenwald]

And yeah, I mean, the logline of the book was like, it almost felt like a chatgpt stunt to get optioned.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which is, again, people really like the book. Kaya. Not so much, but like, it was a hit book and it is a legitimate thing. I am not trying to discredit the author, but the series of words strung together. I was like, well, that's, that's gonna get.

[Chris Ryan]

But I've been having a sensation when I'm watching shows now. Kate Heron directed the third episode. Like it look cool. Like it. El Fanning is wonderful.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, I. Deara Walsh, who did Bad Sisters, really talented Irish director.

[Chris Ryan]

I hate when scenes start and I know exactly how they're going to end.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I, I, I am. If you think I'm insufferable, imagine me watching the show saying what was going to happen in this. Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's not like, oh, I get, let me guess, she's actually going to do Only Fans. But I mean, like, let me guess, she's going to get insulted by this HR work person. Or let me guess, like, Michelle Pfeiffer is not going to be able to take care of the baby tonight, so she's going to ruin her restaurant job. Or let me guess. And I, Yes. Like tv. There's a huge swath of television where I'm like, I Want a reliable, repeatable emotional experience?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Along with a couple of laughs or a couple of thrills every week for 42 minutes or 59 minutes or an hour and five minutes or whatever it is. But more and more, I think tv, like the pit and industry and, you know, euphoria, kind of makes it hard for me to watch stuff where I'm like, no shit. Well, that. That happens.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, if you're committing to eight, ten hours of something, you don't necessarily want extremity, which I think is what was a misunderstanding of a lot of the last 10 years in terms of pushing genre things or violence or shock to the forefront to get people to keep watching. You don't need to be surprised. I think you ought to be delighted. And when you get the feeling that things are moving along a predictable track, that, for me, saps my enthusiasm of spending this much time watching something. Now, if I had a lot of laundry to fold, I get it. I will also say that this is from the book. This might be considered a zag, considering I am the Daddington of this particular island. But I do find the unexpected pregnancy story arc to be diminishing returns. I dare someone to show me a version of this story that follows a different path other than throwing up in public and finding out the hard way and taking multiple tests and saying, no, no, no. And then the chat, like, it's hard. And this is a legitimate part of the human experience, but dramatically, it's increasingly kind of inert because it follows a very similar pattern. Before we get specifically even more into the weeds of the show, I wanted to say some parts. I think that the first of all, the production design. I'm biased. This is Richard Bloom, who worked on my show. But I think he did a beautiful job showing a part of attention. Sam Levinson, a part of Southern California that is very specific and not the version you often see. This is, like, on the outskirts of Pomona. Ish. And one of the things that I noticed that I really appreciated is in Margot's apartment, Margot's the main character played by Elle Fanning. It doesn't look like poverty porn. No. And it doesn't look like there's a bowl of plums on the table for no reason, which is often the case.

[Chris Ryan]

It's right in the middle.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's right in the middle. It's like, oh, some people live here and sometimes they eat cereal. And I noticed that in location to location to location. And when the show does, like, put a little curlicue on it, like the scene in Bloomingdale's. When Margot has sort of a panic attack and falls on the ground and Michelle Pfeiffer is yelling at her to get up, you can see that he hung these, like furry Cassie and Nate esque lilac lamps over her, which I don't believe are a feature of Bloomingdale's, but accentuated the shot.

[Chris Ryan]

I was just in Bloomingdale's last weekend

[Andy Greenwald]

and I gave you shopping for strollers. No, as a gift.

[Chris Ryan]

We were looking for home goods and we went to a Bloomingdales that didn't have them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, well, you should go to the one near Pomona. It's classier. And the original music is by Nathan McKay, who we love from industry and executive producer and I think essentially day to day showrunners. Eva Anderson, who's an incredibly talented writer who I worked with, who I love to see her succeed in something like this. I will also credit one other huge thing here that maybe goes against our initial take. The episodes are like 36 to 42 minutes. Bravo.

[Chris Ryan]

Huge.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's normalize this once you get through

[Chris Ryan]

the your Friends and neighbors trailer. 38 minutes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Although this started with a trailer for itself.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which I was like, like, relax, Apple, you have a winner. I'm here. I really appreciated that. Like there's nothing. Few things worse. Few things worse than you fire it up and it's like 64 minutes.

[Chris Ryan]

I tell you right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what else is worse than that? A 36 minute half hour comedy. But if you tell me it's an hour long drama and you hit that 40 minute sweet spot, I'm paying attention.

[Chris Ryan]

I sincerely would probably. I would watch every episode of Fallout if they were 42 minutes.

[Andy Greenwald]

It makes a huge difference.

[Chris Ryan]

Huge difference.

[Andy Greenwald]

So there's that. I think the other thing I will say that's really positive is I think Nick Offerman is amazing so far in this show. Three episodes in, he's playing just out of rehab, former wrestling great named Jinx. Named Jinx. This feels a little like, you know, you talking about the tops on euphoria to say this, but like the version of the show that's focusing on. And the man is pretty interesting. He's really good.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, this is kind of the thing is like.

[Andy Greenwald]

But it's a different show.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I was most delighted by the opening episode, the first episode, specifically Elle Fanning in college and maybe being in Fullerton and having a gift that should be bigger than Fullerton and the great

[Andy Greenwald]

Michael Angarano, who I love wearing a weird gold buttoned laser yeah, but like,

[Chris Ryan]

like suburban ex Bourbon, California, higher education, living in an apartment with a bunch of roommates who all seem like they could have their quirks and would be pretty interesting to get to know. And Elle Fanning kind of working at a Bennigan's or a Chili's or whatever and, and having dreams beyond Fullerton, but not really sure how to get to them in a. In a different world. That's enough.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's a good show.

[Chris Ryan]

That's a good show, man. Like I, I would watch Elle Fanning doing Frances. Ha. You know, Like, I would watch her kind of just be like, yeah, like, I wish, I wish there was something bigger out there for me. But I think part of it might be because when you get big, big, big stars like Michelle Pfeiffer, who is married to David E. Kelly and I think has made a turn to television in these last few months with the Madison in this. Her storyline with Greg Kinnear is kind of bigger than I thought it would be or maybe bigger than it needs to be. And then Offerman could just be a dad that comes back into the picture. But you add on this whole element of wrestling.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a lot of extra. But I would also. And the baby becoming the fulcrum to reunite this kooky family and make things work out. I mean, look at us. We're just a couple of kids who started a TV podcast and now we're talking about Michelle Pfeiffer projects twice a month. So really the culture moved to us. So thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Gratitude, Practice, gratitude. I found that the tone and the consistency of the characters to be all over the place. And I wondered if it was the creeping reach of celebrity. And what I mean by that is when we first meet Michelle Pfeiffer's Cheyenne character, she is. It was interesting. She is made up heavily and is seemingly trying to embody this lower class ex Hooters waitress. Piecing it together now trying to pretend to be a different person to marry a preacher who apparently only dines at chain restaurants, played by Greg Kinnear. The next time we see her, she looks completely different and a little bit more like she does on the Madison, which is. Michelle Pfeiffer looks incredible all the time at any age of her life and in any setting. And she seemed a lot softer and more likable and nicer. And so then when the turn is that she won't hold the baby, her grandchild, or, you know, or take care of him or help or talk to her daughter, it felt like suddenly We've twisted it again. The drift towards likability and wanting to be a hero in a story that almost inevitably will turn to some kind of mush started really, really early. Maybe it's the familiarity with these characters. Maybe it's a little bit of the ego of who they want to play and how they want to be seen creeping in. But what I didn't understand really was the troubles that anybody was in up until a certain point. Everything seems to be working out fine. You know, she's spending hundreds of dollars in diapers and things up until one of the roommate moves out. And then suddenly the crisis is writ large for us.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Suddenly she says, I could have moved in back with you, but your dresses filled in the other rooms. And I don't really understand the peril. Everything is a little bit agreeable, everything is a little bit nice until it's not for the purposes of the plot. So a character who is kind in one scene comes over to pick another fight with someone else. Because we're in episode three and we need more conflict.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And we introduce. I think it's in. Is it two or three that we introduce Marcia Gay Hardin, who plays Michael Arongo's mother.

[Andy Greenwald]

Michael Angarano's character is a professor, the father of the baby. Marcia Gay Hardin shows up, really shows up and turnt up as a character who immediately announces that her hair looks like a skunk and she has some raccoon. Sorry, a raccoon. Are you sure it was a raccoon? I think it was skunk raccoon.

[Chris Ryan]

Because she's like. And I fight like one too.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's generally. Again, you know, I've been paying a lot of attention to inheritance and family matters and legal systems stuff. That's generally how people behave in legal mediation type of circumstances. You show up and you say, I'm a villain now. Please speak to my attorney. It's all over the place. Yeah, right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I feel like I'm sounding more negative than I intended to be because it is a good expression of what Apple likes to do and tends to do on things either executive produced by Nicole Kidman or spiritually executive produced by Nicole Kidman.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe it's hello, sunshine core. But it's also like, it's not dissimilar to how I feel about the episodes of shrinking that I've watched, which is this is about taking these incredibly vulnerable, destabilizing moments in characters lives, but creating the feeling that everything is fine and safe and good and cushioning. I don't mind Going either way. You know what I mean? Like, I don't necessarily need everything to be last exit to Brooklyn, but if somebody loses their wife in a car accident or someone has an unexpected pregnancy and finds themselves in dire straits economically, I find it difficult to sometimes, like, square the circle of. But actually, in terms of the televisual experience that you're going to have, it's fine. You know, it's like, it's safe and it's cool and it's nice and you're gonna get to know and love these characters. And honestly, let's just try to keep these characters in play for two, three seasons, but keep them more or less in the same myu. So we're gonna want them all existing in this same world and in these same circumstances forever.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And in some ways that's how I feel about your friends and neighbors, which is like a cool concept that I would have liked to have watched a 90 minute to 120 minute movie about a guy who's fallen out from an investment bank and starts robbing houses in his rich neighborhood. But when you're like, here's episode 11 of him doing the same thing, but

[Andy Greenwald]

also the central problem with your friends and neighbors. And maybe this is the. Maybe this is just the note that they don't give it apple. Or maybe this is just apple, where everything is smooth and contoured and works well.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe they're like, this is exactly what we want.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I'm saying.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jon Hamm's character in your friends and neighbors turns to a life of crime for reasons that are kind of shrug emoji. Like, he loses his job that pays him seven figures, so he starts stealing paintings. But don't worry, his daughter still gets into Princeton. Like, the stakes are never really that bad for them, even when they try to create the sense that they are. The biggest risk he has is of maybe not being able to pay for the tennis club membership anymore or hang out in the sauna with his equally rich friends. Yeah. This is not really a problem. It is a conceit for a television show. Fine. But we are living in this moment where it does feel like some of these streamers studios, creators are trying to cherry pick the trappings of a grungier, more intense kind of drama that we have history and success with on television, but really just sanding off the edges and making it tv.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe you can't get in the door unless you're like, here's the sticky hooky part of this. If you pitch Jon Hamm loses his job at a big time investment fund or private, you know, badge fund and in the midst of a divorce, needs to recalibrate how he fits in to this tony Long island community. That's just like John Hamdu and John Cheever. And I'd probably be really into it and I wouldn't have any expectations about how he does and doesn't change. But to get it sticky, you have to be like, and then he turns to a life of crime. But don't worry, it's not like Breaking Bad where it's not like Breaking Bad.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, this is the example. It is not something we generally do, which is hold up one of the generally acknowledged greatest shows ever, Rushmore shows ever, and say, well, you're not doing that. Nobody needs to do that. Very few people could do that. And if they did it again, we'd be like, you're just doing that. I hear all of that. But early on in that show, Walter White reaches the first of what ends up being dozens upon dozens of absolutely existentially catastrophic decision points. And he does the thing that you can't believe that he's going to do. It begins with the first. You know, the guy who's in the basement who they then have to like, they melt his body in the bathtub. You can't really walk back from that. What a lot of these other shows do is they create a clever opportunity and circumstance parachute to get away from you go near the body in the bathtub, but then you're not really responsible for it and he was just sleeping anyway and you're off to flirt with danger again the second, the next week. That's kind of a bummer. And I can understand why you might do it in an ongoing show, but

[Chris Ryan]

it's like something about the mechanics of the storytelling sticks out to me too. If you were gonna pitch Justified as a movie, you would pitch it as Oliphant versus Goggins. And the end of the movie would be their showdown.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

If you pitch it as a TV show, you're like, this is a week to week show about a really cool Marshall who, who returns home to Kentucky after he gets in trouble in Florida and has to deal with all of the like rural crime outside of, of of Lexington, in the hills outside, you know, and that's awesome. And then it emerges over the course of the season that there's going to be this big bad, but they are like from any given week week, you're not going to know what the story is going to be. And it's all these different cool little procedural Marshall stories. I don't think that they are using the same logic of like, what makes an entertaining television show week to week anymore, understandably, because a lot of people are waiting for all the episodes of your Friends and neighbors to go up so that they then just watch them over a weekend or whatever. And I, I don't know. With Margot, it's the same thing. It's like, like how, how much, how, how long can you do a show about someone who didn't expect to be a mother and now is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think it, I think you

[Chris Ryan]

probably could do it for a while, I guess.

[Andy Greenwald]

But we should sell. We could separate the, the conversation because Kaya, how would you characterize the book? Like, is the book surprisingly dark at times or is it essentially like a fun read that touches on contemporary society?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I would say the latter.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think my issues with the book are also like my, I watched the first episode of the this and my.

[Chris Ryan]

I think the tone of the book

[Andy Greenwald]

was a little bit off putting to me. Similarly, in the way that the tone

[Chris Ryan]

of this show is a little bit

[Andy Greenwald]

off putting where it just feels like overly twee. Yeah, I think, like, I don't think it's not necessarily fair to combine that into this conversation because if this is true to the spirit of the book, like, one thing that David Kelly is just expert at, especially in this later part of his career, is he's really good at finding the thing that makes the thing successful and he just expands on that and celebrates it. So turning this into a glossy but affirming sort of twee, magical, creative family story. That's fine. There's plenty of space for that on tv. There are a lot of talented people working to make that happen. And maybe it'll have a couple twists and turns along the way. And also with a show like this, it's like, oh, that's Carrie. Kenny Silver in one scene, being funny. That's Laura San Giacomo as a minor character. We haven't seen her in a minute. That's great to see. It's attractive. Marcia Gay Harden. Like, it's of a very, very, very high level. But the bummer is when that sensibility, that kind of apple just contoured, smoothing everything out, sensibility becomes the lingua franca of the medium or becomes the expected thing. Now, to bring it all the way back to the first point we were making when you were talking about what's out there right now. Historically, TV is pretty laundry folding and affirming and magical and, and Fill space and fill time and it's okay to bring some of that back into our lives. The pit proves that you can be pretty boundary pushing and thrilling within using some of that old language. I think the problem becomes when all of the resources at the shrinking number of streaming services pour all of those resources into that. Now we're not at that point. There's still 300 new shows.

[Chris Ryan]

Absolutely.

[Andy Greenwald]

And Apple UK especially is putting out a lot of. Really?

[Chris Ryan]

And this also might speak to the difference between watching TV as a professional pursuit versus watching TV as a way to let steam at the end of a long day.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So I acknowledge that and I, you know, I there. But there is something fuzzy going on with me and with these shows where I'm just like, I'm not connecting with as many as I usually do.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think that goes back to the. I think you were right about the shrinking observation. And I also think that it's just a lot of hours to fill. Like not many stories are deserving of this much of our time, frankly, you know, and even some of the spy shows that maybe people think we overrate, it's like. Well, I also read a lot of spy books in my spare time and probably couldn't tell you about half the plots. Like that is something that I enjoy doing once I'm in that world. But I wouldn't give the same, I probably wouldn't give the same grace to books in different genres just to fill time. It would have to earn my attention.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks for your participation in the show today. Thanks to Sarah, Kai and Kyle.

[Andy Greenwald]

Other plans?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I got another pod I gotta go to.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh well, please, by all means.

[Chris Ryan]

And we'll be back on Thursday with Beef, Top Chef and Wildcard. I mean I listed all those shows. Maybe we should check out the Audacity for that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I don't want to over commit because it's kind of a busy week, you know, with all the probate stuff I got going on.

[Chris Ryan]

But I don't really. I got to get to the bottom of this now.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm just. Now it's just a bit.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks everybody for listening. We'll be back on Thursday.