‘Euphoria’ and ‘Hacks’ Say Goodbye. Plus, ‘Star City’ Takes Off.

Summary

The Watch – June 2, 2026

‘Euphoria’ and ‘Hacks’ Say Goodbye. Plus, ‘Star City’ Takes Off

Overview

In this episode, The Ringer’s Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan dig into three major TV moments:

• The highly anticipated and shock-filled series finale of HBO’s Euphoria
• The emotional, if controversial, finale of Max’s Hacks
• The impressive debut of Apple TV’s Star City, a For All Mankind spinoff

Rich with in-depth analysis, memorable quotes, and lively banter, Andy and Chris explore the creative ambitions and successes (and failures) behind each show, while providing thoughtful context on the evolving TV landscape.

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Section 1: Euphoria Series Finale – Final Farewell to Rue (01:57–52:10)

Context and Setup

• Euphoria ended with an extended 1 hour 45 minute finale. Both hosts note the rarity and weight of such a sprawling episode.
• Andy watched this final season as his first direct dive into the show ("the only eight episodes of Euphoria that you've ever seen" – Chris Ryan, 03:53).

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Key Themes & Analysis

A Gut-Punch Goodbye to Rue

• Rue’s death is confirmed, handled with shock, beauty, and devastating emotional realism.
• "The almost certainly tragic and the almost undersold death of Rue was artful and deeply upsetting... a powerful use of his medium to communicate what this drug does."
  — Andy Greenwald (04:47)
• The finale doesn’t glamorize drugs—it literalizes the sudden, final consequence of fentanyl.
• Layered with meta-text due to actor Angus Cloud’s real-life passing (08:26).

Addiction, Cinema, and Fantasy vs. Reality

• Sam Levinson’s personal connection to addiction and love of cinema suffuse the finale.
• The show’s wild cinematic references (Dirty Harry, Taxi Driver, The Searchers) are both tribute and critique:
  "Everything felt a little bit like kids playing dress up... Bugsy Malone in stilettos." — Andy (11:21)
• The revenge-fantasy shootout with Ali, played by Colman Domingo, is read as both wish fulfillment for grieving families and self-aware pastiche.
• “This entire thing...is a personal labor of love for someone who...has found both escape and meaning in art, but specifically in cinema.” — Andy (11:17)

The Limits and Risks of the Creator-as-Auteur Model

• While episodes are loaded with auteur moments, they lack the connective tissue of traditional TV drama.
• "Where the limitations of the auteur model are evident... you can have constellations of...shining star moments...the connective tissue between them was often either convoluted, ignored, underbaked, straight up..." — Andy (45:45)

Sincerity and Emotional Impact Amid Madness

• Despite its chaos, the finale is lauded for its sincerity:
  “There was a sincerity to the main thrust of this episode and to the grace it was handled... he believes it. You know what I mean? Like, there is no lack of courage, of convictions here.” — Chris Ryan (29:34)

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Storytelling Choices and Controversies

Handling of Side Characters (34:16, 37:27)

• Several key characters (Jules, Lexi, Maddie) are sidelined with abrupt arcs or minimal closure.
• The major omission: Show doesn’t depict Rue’s mother or sister reacting to Rue’s off-screen death (43:20).
• Some secondary storylines (e.g., Bishop’s reversal, the Medusa painting) are called muddled or pointless.

Religion, the Old Testament, and the Power of Story

• The finale incorporates heavy religious references, using the Bible as a narrative tool, equating it with the use of cinematic myth-making.
• “The Old Testament is no different than Dirty Harry. It's a story you tell yourself to understand why bad things happen to people you love.” — Chris Ryan (23:20)

Artistic Highs and Exploitation Lows (48:19)

• The episode swings from deeply moving moments to over-the-top exploitation:
  "Plastic surgery. Brazilian butt lift. Lori blows her pants out...Marshawn Lynch getting into a threesome before he gets his dick blown off. I mean it is so exploitative...It is exploitation core." — Chris Ryan (48:19)
• The ongoing tension between "high" and "low" art is seen as a defining feature—and divisive trigger—for viewers.

Final Table Scene & “The Searchers” Reference

• Ali’s coda mirrors The Searchers — an outsider finally invited in, challenging the American myth of isolation.
• “To have this end with Ali being brought inside to the dinner table, I thought was a striking difference...an inversion of what...the imagery suggested initially." — Chris Ryan (32:33)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the finale’s cinematic games:
  “I don't know if you can call it a B movie, but Tommy Lee Jones and William Devane...that was a very knowing nod.” — Chris (09:49)

• On religion, storytelling, and coping:
  “I felt all any of us are doing is trying to tell ourselves a story to keep the scaries away…” — Andy (23:55)

• On the show's legacy:
  "We're never getting anything like this again." — Andy (51:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Euphoria segment start: 01:57
• Rue’s death and addiction focus: 04:47
• Ali’s revenge arc analysis: 09:40
• Religion as narrative device: ~21:16–25:32
• Scene on technical execution/side characters: 34:16–39:16
• Finale emotional impact: 29:55
• Series’ end and legacy: 51:53

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Section 2: Hacks Finale – Emotional Manipulation and the “Chewbacca Effect” (53:20–59:31)

Key Discussion Points

Contrasting Emotional Payoff

• Hacks is “more complete, satisfying, watertight” than Euphoria, but emotionally less daring.
• Finale features high-stakes cancer plot, but backs away from killing off Deborah, using a “psych! she lives” turn.

Memorable Quote (55:36)

• “Somehow Chewbacca has returned. And I got really mad on a podcast where I was like, you can’t...manipulate people like this." — Chris Ryan

Reflection on Audience Covenant

• “The worst endings tend to be the ones that betray that core belief at the last moment…” — Andy, on the importance of tonal honesty (57:00)

Softness vs. Stakes in Prestige TV

• Hacks opts for emotional warmth (“softness and the gentleness and the schmaltziness”) over real-life consequence ("the stakes of the show are consistent").

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Section 3: HBO’s State of Play and TV’s Shifting Landscape (59:31–66:01)

Main Insights

• HBO’s future: Shifting from legacy, idiosyncratic dramas (Euphoria, Succession) to a broad slate (White Lotus, Last of Us, Dune: Prophecy, etc.), with a new corporate parent paradigm (Paramount).
• “It is a very different floor than HBO had 10 years ago...built on more mainstream facing stuff that works...” — Andy (63:49)
• Hosts reference upcoming HBO shows and industry anxiety—landscape morphs, but network core stays resilient.

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Section 4: Star City – A Standout, Unlikely Spin-Off (66:01–80:18)

Overview and First Impressions

• Star City is a For All Mankind spinoff on Apple TV, set in the 1960s USSR space program.
• Both hosts are surprised and delighted by its existence:
  “I no longer understand what gets greenlit and what doesn’t. Nothing makes sense to me anymore.” — Andy (71:44)

Core Analysis

Comparisons and Praise

• “Is this the Andor of For All Mankind?” — Chris Ryan (66:53)
• The show captures an atmosphere reminiscent of Chernobyl or 1970s conspiracy thrillers.
• Praise for performances by Rhy Ifans, Anna Maxwell Martin, Alice Englert, and others.
• Effective use of brutalist Soviet aesthetics and lived-in period authenticity.

Narrative and Accessibility

• You don’t need to have watched For All Mankind to dive into Star City.
• Rich character depth achieved quickly:
  “Character beats...enchanting...reminds me of Battlestar Ronald Moore’s Battlestar Galactica.” — Chris (76:00)
• Themes: Power, paranoia, propaganda, the dark underbelly of “victory.”

Industry and Artistic Commentary

• Speaks to streaming-era oddities: ambitious projects survive under the radar thanks to niche viewership and deep funding.
• “I’m glad they’re spending their money on this.” — Andy (74:26)

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Notable Quotes

• “Pilots are hard. The opening moments of [Star City] are so excellent at bringing you into everything that this show’s going to be about.” — Andy (74:46)
• “Casting becomes even more important...you notice [Alice Englert]...in a show where the aesthetic is primary.” — Andy (79:30)

Timestamps

• Star City discussion begins: 66:01
• Accessibility for new viewers: ~73:35
• Performance and casting talk: ~77:49
• Closing thoughts on the show: 80:06

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Conclusion & What’s Next (80:18–81:21)

Wrap-up and Teasers

• Next episode to cover Top Chef, Widow's Bay, and further Star City analysis.
• Final thanks and banter: "Thank you for watching Euphoria with me. Thank you for podcasting with me today." (81:12)

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SUMMARY TAKEAWAY

• Euphoria’s finale is divisive, audacious, and deeply personal—a dazzling mess that refuses to meet TV convention, provoking strong reactions and deep conversation about storytelling, addiction, and art.
• Hacks delivers a satisfying if “soft” conclusion, underlining the spectrum of ways that TV resolves emotional stakes.
• Star City emerges as a dark horse: sharply made, atmospheric, and unusually ambitious—well worth the hosts’ and listeners’ attention.
• The broader TV discussion contextualizes these finales in a changing HBO/streaming landscape, as networks recalibrate for the age of corporate mega-mergers and risk-averse programming.

Memorable Closing:
“We're never getting anything like this again.” — Andy Greenwald (51:53)

Transcript

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[Chris Ryan]

I need support staff to clear the room.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, guess he has to scrap that Colman Domingo Rolling Thunder remake. It's a degree wall.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Absolutely the opposite.

[Chris Ryan]

No, it's, it's, it's all time.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

It's hot right now.

[Chris Ryan]

It's the hottest it could possibly be. Greenwald, great to see you. Today on the Watch podcast we are going to talk about the conclusion of a little TV series called Euphoria, which ended last night with an hour and 45 minute series finale as HBO has announced that that was what a three

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

month journey it's been for some of us.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, and so we're going to talk about Euphoria. We are also going to talk about one of my favorite new shows that I have seen in a long time, Apple TV's Star City, a spin off of For All Mankind. But something Altogether different and cool to. To talk about. There's a couple of other things, but I think Euphoria is definitely the headline. First of all, you can hit us up the [e-mail] Instagram is the WatchPod underscore. You can watch us on YouTube at the ringer-tv or along with the Prestige TV podcast. Who went live last night to talk about Euphoria? I wonder if Joanna and Rob knew that that was going to be in an hour and 45 minute episode before they. They signed up for that. But they did a great job and they had some really great takes on the show.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Do you think the Germans have a word for that feeling you get when you turn on an episode of television and see 1:45?

[Chris Ryan]

How often do we see 1:45? It's among the longer episodes of TV I can remember.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I have some thoughts on that. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, there is. I wonder if there's a German word for that feeling that I had when we had to go live for Talk the Thrones while the Sixers were still playing the Raptors in 2019.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Oh, I didn't have to do that. I did. Yeah. Wow. What was the word, do you think?

[Chris Ryan]

Shite.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

That's bad, man. That's bad.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. And then, you know, we might touch on like the end of Hacks and like what where HBO is at right now.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

You're taking me on a journey today. I love it. How was your. Anything else for your weekend?

[Chris Ryan]

Anything? No, like we could do. We can do that for Watch After Dark.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I want to get right into it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Let's talk about how we felt about this finale.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I guess I'm gonna start here because you had the more unique viewing experience. These being the only eight episodes of Euphoria that you've ever seen. Did you leave the finale satisfied?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I found this hour and 45 minutes to be a relatively perfect encapsulation of my three month journey. In that I found it by, I won't say exactly equal turns, but certainly some in each camp. I found it exhilarating, hilarious, outrageous, ridiculous, frustrating, bordering. Bordering on infuriating. That was my journey this year. Before we get into the specifics of that, I think it's important, if you don't mind, I think we could just go right at the main story here.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And for people who are just taking a little dance with us here, this is going to spoil the final episode and thus the season of Euphoria and

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

thus the series which has now been confirmed. I thought that the almost certainly tragic and the almost undersold death of Rue was artful and deeply upsetting in ways that really highlight the fact that even in my limited engagement with the show, it was very clear that the heartbeat, certainly, no pun intended, of the series is Sam Levinson's relationship to addiction and to his particular worldview on the scourge of drug addiction in contemporary American society. And for it ultimately to take the form of this, like, beautiful, radiant, charismatic, surprising, hilarious life seeking protagonist for her to go out with. Not even like what we've come to experience in media, hopefully, although potentially in our actual lives of ODing and coming back and struggling, but just the automatic existence life switch that is Fentanyl. Yeah, was a gut punch, but I also thought that was really, really. I thought it was a powerful use of his medium to communicate what this drug does, you know, and then it built on. And by building on that, it had the almost Landman esque Ali explanation of what happened and what's happening in America during what appears to be his last,

[Chris Ryan]

Very much his last, his last meeting.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Meeting. And we can talk about that. And I, and I have a lot to say about the Colman Domingo thing. But, but, but I really want to hear your thoughts on the extinguishing of a character that has meant a lot to you and to the series. But I found, and we can talk about the artfulness or however you found it to be of the dual, the choose your own adventure morning that we see, a fantasy morning that then spins out quite clearly into a last moment's death nightmare. But like, I did find that if you just scoop that out, I found that effective. But also I found that was a moment when as an audience member, I felt very in tune with what I believe the creator to be intended.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I don't think that I necessarily expected it just because it ultimately, I thought, I thought euphoria was, was. Was rounding into being Rue's story.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, and I guess it was. And also, this is sort of silly, but like watching Bill's Instagram over the weekend and his daughter Zoe had had a good point on one of his walking talks where she was like, well, Rue's the narrator, so how would you, how would you break that, that sort of level of storytelling if all this is being discussed by Rue in some sort of kind of omniscience?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

There is a cinematic tradition of posthumous narrators.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Yeah, I mean, she, she doesn't quite achieve Sunset Boulevard here, but yeah, there is some of that. I was deeply moved by it. I think that there are Other shows that would have broadcast her death much more clearly in so much as there would be, like, a sacrifice that she needed to make, whether it was for Ali, whether it was for one of her friends, for Jules, whether it was to do the last good thing that she could do. And in her fantasy and in her imagination, I think she is doing that. She's coming through for Fez, who came through for her. I think the fact that the actor who played Fez, Angus Cloud, passed away after a battle with addiction.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

But specifically, if I'm not mistaken, he would. What ended his life. Was Fentanyl laced.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And Sam went on the New York Times pop culture music podcast with John and Joe and talked about how. And he has spoken at length about how, like, if he were, you know, using today the way in whatever capacity he once did, there's in all likelihood he would be dead. Because there is this silver bullet and bullets out there that, like, take addicts out in this kind of vengeful almost way. I. I just found myself, like, really going along on that journey. And I thought that the two best actors on the show.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Got an incredible showcase. The Rue and Ali relationship was the most meaningful one to me probably of this series. And in a lot of the ways that Rue kind of fantasizes about what she wants her last day to stand up to, which is being there for Fez, reconnecting with her family, going back home. I think that Ali's final act, which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah. I. I'm eager to talk about.

[Chris Ryan]

Is in and of itself a fantasy.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think it. I do think it, quote, unquote, happens in the world of euphoria.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah, yeah. But.

[Chris Ryan]

But I think that turning into Dirty Harry, Rolling Thunder, Taxi Driver, and, you know, even the Rolling Thunder, which is like this very well loved B movie from. From the 70s. I don't know if you can call it a B movie, but Tommy Lee Jones and William Devane and About a returning soldier who is, you know, takes vengeance on those who take advantage of his family. That was a very knowing nod Sam has. When he did his Euphoria Film Festival at the American Cinema Tech in la, the one that he spoke for was Dirty Harry. So I was like, oh, that's why. I guess. And I think that that is probably honestly a fantasy of the people who have lost their children, their loved ones to Fentanyl, is that someone should pay for what is happening.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

So I thought. I completely agree with you about that. And I think that the most sympathetic is the wrong word, but the most maybe empathetic. The most attempting to be attuned to the journey of the show and the creative process of the show. Take that I can give is that this entire thing and made really made clear the season, which is the one I watch. But you can speak to whether this hangs over the entire series, but this is a project is a personal labor of love for someone who clearly throughout his life, and not just because of his. His parentage and where he grew up, has found both escape and meaning in. In art, but specifically in cinema.

[Chris Ryan]

Who among us and truly look what

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

we do for a living.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And so we did note throughout this season particularly that everything felt a little bit like kids playing dress up. I mean, these are 23 year olds supposedly set loose in this, you know, sinful hellscape of modern Los Angeles. And sometimes it struck me as very discordant and like the other day, and I called it like, you know, Bugsy Malone in stilettos. And other times you could sort of understand what the fantasy was doing for these characters. So my. My most generous interpretation of the end, without getting into dismissing it as just like sub Tarantino almost pastiche schlock was the Alamo stuff. Yeah. Which. Which always it kind of was, is that the entire season is a referendum on the fact that in 2026 or whenever the show is set, most addicts, most addicts do not get second chances. And so Rue's embrace of religion, Rue's embrace of a new life, Rue's constant just being missed by shotgun shells, like her constant near misses, are not actually a hero story. These are just the last moments of thrashing in the net that's already caught you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And that if you look at where she was, she hadn't made it very far at all. I mean, she was sort of toggling between these two almost obscenely cartoonish extremes of violence. The Nazis and then the cowboy gangsters at the strip club. And all of that being said, what happens in the last 30 minutes or 40 minutes of the show is a character who, you know, on Thursday I was saying, I wish there was a spin off, that was just Ali doing his work, that this character. Slow show.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, depends.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Well, that's the thing. His previous one, that his saying that Rue being the last straw for him and him immediately then picking up a drink, quitting meetings, sawing off a shotgun and doing what he does, that it was in some ways like giving this character who has lost so much and has been burdened by so much the grace to Also lose himself in cinema, where he becomes Dirty Harry and he can do something on screen that no one in the messy, complicated real world can do, which is shoot addiction in the head until it explodes like a B character on the Boys that I think as I'm. As I'm pitching you on that sharks, like. Do you buy that emotionally? Does that make sense to you? I'm not saying that it worked for me, but I found that. I find that argument that has come into my head more compelling.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You know what's funny is that I think that you. When we intellectually, like, get into, like, the project here and what. What this. So your description of that second half of the episode. And I'm. Let's put aside the Searcher's Prayer coda.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Let's bring it back. I do want to talk about that.

[Chris Ryan]

I found that incredibly moving.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The Silver Slippers sequence with Ali and Alamo, I think is, like, it's one thing in. In when you describe it or when you talk about, like, this is the best possible version of it. And I think the. One of the things that was difficult about this entire season is that I can tell you that. But it's also got, like, eight Brazilian butt lift jokes and, like, a runner with a white dog and, you know, kind of hat on a hat with Matty being there as well.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And Super Bowl MVP Marshawn lynch getting his dick shot off.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Which he was very disappointed not to actually do that stunt, as I learned from the after. After show.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Did you stick around for that?

[Chris Ryan]

I did.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Nice. You do the work well.

[Chris Ryan]

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting. What was the one that we just. Like, I missed the credit sequence of.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Oh, yeah. And you hadn't even seen it. It was the Pit.

[Chris Ryan]

Um, it's one thing to describe it and then it's another thing to experience it. And I think that during that. It is set in a strip club. And I get it. But, like, there are elements of it that I think are distracting it from its pure power, you know, and that it kind of diminished the impact that I think it could have had. There's also just, like, storytelling stuff.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

That I don't think he took care of. I don't think he properly set up Bishop turning on Alamo.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

That was not set up.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think that it's clear what Rue's friends know about Rue's death or

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

what it means to them and whether,

[Chris Ryan]

like, Maddie ever puts together that it was her. I told Alamo that Roux was A DEA informant. And then days later, she's dead.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I will jump on one thing with that, and I don't know why.

[Chris Ryan]

I guess everybody is just assuming that Rue overdosed.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah, I mean, I'm not. I don't want to carry too much water for this because I think that ultimately for me, as a storytelling mechanism in an episode of television, it failed.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I was. But as we've agreed, like, we were moved by, and I think I deeply respect the decision to handle the end of the main character the way he handled it. And I think that there's an interesting conversation to be had and we'll continue to have it about whether it is illuminating or ultimately kind of simplistic to have both a director, a creator and characters lose themselves in the extremity of an artifice of cinema, as opposed to actually staying in the uncomfortable place that the show flirted with. But I will say that I. The way that. So, like the way the entire way the season came together again, we're going to choose to use the high minded version of it, which was this was all a vision, as opposed to man. This was what he could string together considering the cast availability of all the budgetary stuff. Not budgetary stuff meaning like, he didn't have enough money, but, like what it would cost to mount X, Y or Z thing. Well, I just.

[Chris Ryan]

I just don't know whether Hunter Schieffer was available. You know what I mean? It doesn't seem like it.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

What I mean is, if you look at it that way, you can. There's a positive spin and there's a negative spin. And when you, of course, listen to Sam Levinson talk, it all seems like the vision came together. I find that hard to believe because Ru is the main character of the show and yet kind of haunted the show in a weird way, in the margins, existed in a different show and never really crossed paths with anyone else to leave a meaningful mark emotionally. That landed on other characters, which is a hallmark of serialized television. That said, you could say, and maybe he said in interviews that I haven't seen yet. That was always the point because Rue is the main character when she shows up to Maud Appetite, what's her name, Lexi's House, you know, and is sort of going on and on about the dea from Lexi's perspective. This is someone she knew four or five years ago, who she opens the door to, but then doesn't think about in the intervening weeks and months. So when you hear about it, it is like you said, it's like a. That's a bummer. But in a way, I've mourned her already.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And I think that when Lexi and Maddie are talking about Rue or when I can't remember if it's Lexi or Cassie talking about Rue and Maddie not cruelly says she was a drug addict, you know, it's. I think perhaps her friend group at that moment is like the phone call we were always expecting finally came.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And what a tragedy. And don't put together that in fact she probably took like one or two Percocets for the pain of her hand.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I think likely one.

[Chris Ryan]

One. And that was because he made a

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

show of taking from a different batch. Of taking one and giving her one.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Yeah. Because he took the one which was. Yeah, that was probably actually like when you look back on that episode, I guess it's been, it was kind of broadcast that that's what was gonna happen to Rue.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Well, also his joy of her being employee of the month and doing a great job.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

In the first conversation they had.

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[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Carvana pick up.

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[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Where to go from here? I mean, I guess.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Well, do you want to talk? I'd like to hear your thoughts on both the violence, just in terms of that turn for the character of Ali, but then also the turn back in a way of going to the homesteader stuff. And I really want to. I'm really curious your take on the show's almost Old Testament. Interest in the Old Testament in the Sense that I cannot tell if it is skeptical, credulous, mocking, true believer or if it is just what it seems to be, which is a creator or either for his own life or thinking of his characters grasping on to something like you would a life preserver in the middle of the ocean. In that it's like you'd never thought about a life preserver before until you were drowning. Because the way like I thought the weakest scene by far in the episode is Lexi talking.

[Chris Ryan]

Lexi and Cassie.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I mean the other thing is I don't want to be unkind, but like Zendaya and Colman Domingo and my guy Adwale Akinnoye Akbaje, who plays Alamo, are exceptional actors doing exceptional work on the show, even when I don't love the material. Some of the other cast members, particularly the ones we're talking about in the scene, are quite weak, in my opinion.

[Chris Ryan]

I just don't know that they had a ton to do. Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Or they don't know what to make of it. And maybe they weren't given sides. They didn't know where they were in a story. But that scene where she's like, you ever read the Bible? Was tough sledding for me. But I'm wondering how you felt about all of that.

[Chris Ryan]

Here's. I'm gonna make the case for it that the show's interest in and the characters emerging interest in the Bible is in and of itself not altogether different than Sam Levinson using these sort of pre established, much beloved cinematic tropes and forms. Spaghetti westerns, B movie vengeance thrillers, Douglas

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Sirk melodramas, Hollywood pictures about Hollywood, Sunset

[Chris Ryan]

Boulevard, you know, Antonioni. Like close ups of people's crying faces. You know, like these kinds of things that I think as a kid who is largely raised by screens like I identify with the need to like look at real life and think about what movies I've seen that can explain it,

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

you know, and to mitigate your own emotional.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's like a disassociative kind of thing. Which frankly is also what drugs are about. Like drugs are a way of pulling down the shade and existing in a completely different world for a while where your brain is moving fast or slow or is feeling no pain or whatever it is. So I get it. I. Your mileage may vary on how you feel about Maude Apatow as a performer. I think her reading of it as I hate to use the Didian we tell ourselves stories in order to live stuff, but that the Old Testament is no different than Dirty Harry.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

All Spotify podcasts are using the didion reference way too much that the.

[Chris Ryan]

The Old Testament is no different than Dirty Harry. It's a story you tell yourself to, like, understand why bad things happen to people you love.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes. And that. Yeah, that. That sex, betrayal and violence goes all the way back. All the way back.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And when they began, people left and right back then.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Begats. Bring your begats to the. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The idea of, like, Lexi just being, like, man, these guys are just begetting left and right.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

This is great.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes. This is why I think I have more tenderness towards this completely unwieldy, impossible finale than I expected, or maybe anyone listening expected is because, I don't know, I felt all any of us are doing is trying to tell ourselves a story to keep the scaries away, to get rid of the anxiety or to mitigate the anxiety or delay the anxiety. And he is reaching for primal stuff, the most primal human stuff. When he brings the Bible into it, there was a feeling of just like the Texas family as the. Wait. This is really what Rue wants. This isn't a bit. And then. No, these people are her heaven, in a way, was confounding because it was a level of sincerity that. That, in my limited engagement with this show, felt quite surprising and untrustworthy. It was revealed to be quite trustworthy at the end. And interestingly, where Ali is at this point, he's Martin again. And he, as he said earlier in the episode, he's been a Christian, he's been a Muslim, he's been a drinker, he's been almost everything. And it's almost as if the horror of everything that he's seen and done has scoured him clean. And he arrives, you know, like a. Like a pilgrim, basically, to this nothing, desert place. And he is not ostensibly religious, but then when he says grace and he's with this family and they're holding hands and he sees Rue, he's a believer again in something.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I thought that that was the most effective use of a cinematic reference point that this episode had for me, which was framing Ollie as Ethan from the Searchers multiple times, as the outsider who can't come in to this domesticated ways dressed. Yeah. Peace palace, essentially, you know, and it. And. And I thought he very knowingly was doing that framing. And then to have you get the. The last image of him outside of the barn and the little girl comes up to him and is like. That's actually essentially Rue's spirit reborn three months ago, and it's a Miracle that this cow had a baby, but here it is.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Bringing him in. And then, you know, this show's relationship to religion and what religion can and does mean to people, I think sometimes is fast and loose. I also am not a religious person, so it's not really like, my place to speak on what it means to the characters when I don't really have know. But a spiritual life, so to speak. But there is something very. If you listen to the words and if the moment is right, there is something very calming and peaceful about prayer, you know, and especially that the grace that they say at that table and like, that to me was like, this is the baseline. This is what all humans should hope to strive to achieve. And even though those. I believe, if I remember correctly, like, those people had some pretty. Some political opinions maybe that I don't agree with, you know, earlier in the season, but the idea that it's like, you know, we basically remember the dead, may their memory be a blessing, that

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

specifically made me sit up a little bit, because that is traditionally. That's a Jewish saying when people pass away. And I appreciated in that moment that if we were talking about. Got him finally some representation in Hollywood. Yes, no, but that, like Martin at this point, is a pilgrim who has moved through everything. And when he's praying at that moment, I took that to mean he is now forming a collection of things that are meaningful to him. I also can't help but, you know, think that Sam Levinson put that in, because the Levinson family probably has said that when they have lost people in their lives. And I found that moving. I found that, like, interesting and expansive in its engagement with religion. And. And, you know, I think there's a secondary step here that. That maybe the story of Euphoria is that Rue wasn't able to because of her addiction, because of her illness, was not able to achieve. But like prayer and religion, this is maybe just getting older. I think it become. Has become more interesting to me, too, both because of the ability to, like, connect to anything bigger than yourself and get out of your own head, but also that, like, so much of what we talk about, and not just us in Los Angeles, but I think there's, like, a secular religion that is getting better about telling people to practice gratitude, you know, which is essentially saying a prayer. It's just maybe not to anybody. And that there is a certain. And actually, certainly in Los Angeles, there is a very strong spine of that type of belief out there. And the fact that the show up until the very end, maybe existed in a much more Old Testament binary. Heaven and hell. But you've never gonna. You're never gonna see. Heaven was holding it back in a way. Like, I don't know. I think that I'm engaged with this finale. There's plenty that I didn't like, and if we could get into it if we wanted to, but I'm much more engaged with it. And this is a me thing, not a euphoria thing. But there were aspects of this season that really rubbed me the wrong way and activated me in a way that only things that I find to be spectacle driven or cynical driven do. And there was a sincerity to the main thrust of this episode and to the grace it was handled, despite this silver slipper thing that makes me feel. Look, whatever you say about this show and about this guy and whatever he does next, and whether you make me watch it on the podcast or not, he believes it. You know what I mean? Like, there is no lack of courage, of convictions here. So I want to be. That's another reason why I don't. I'm trying not to be as reactive as I normally might be to things that drive me insane.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I also. I think I have gone back and forth where I was like, you know, in the beginning of the season, I was like, the. My. My selling point on Euphoria is it's never boring.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah. And the first episode got me because it was like the shot of her teetering on the wall, like, that was cinema. That was awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

And that cool, damning praise, because that can't be. The only thing that art does is stimulate some, you know, some frontal lobe

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

stuff for you, the way drugs do.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yes. But I didn't think that this episode was boring. I thought it would be. It was able to do things where you were like, oh, of course. Of course this is what had to happen. But also, be like, I had no idea that this was going to happen. Like, in the back of my mind, I was like, ali's gonna try and save her in a shootout of some kind, and his sacrifice is what finally sends her down the right path. Or something like that. And I should have thought more about the fact that they had kept the Fezco character canonically alive on the show. I should have thought about the sort of plot that they had kept going with him about escaping and that. That moment when she's woken up and he doesn't see the pill bottle that is right in front of her, and they're talking about this escape, and she goes running out the door that wasn't real. And that when she starts seeing images from her own childhood, that. That was obviously the last moments of her life.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

The inclusion, we sort of glided past it. But the inclusion of Fez, a character I've never seen, was. I thought that was really remarkably done. And again, a sign of my complicated relationship to the show where when it says, like, escaped inmate escapes via parkour. And I was like, this show will do anything to perpetuate itself, when, in fact, what it will do. And again, in that moment, like, there have been. There have been in the history of television, there have been sadly, multiple tragedies where cast members have passed away or have, for whatever reason, been unable to continue on with the show, or the show has continued on without them. And the show tries to build that into the show world with very mixed results. And I thought this was one of the most touching and human ways that I've ever seen it done.

[Chris Ryan]

You could see it was like a very personal story to him.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

It made the show. That was the. That was canonical, I guess, is what I mean to say. What happened to Angus McCloud is the story of the show. And I. You know, Sam Levinson has said in interviews that, like, it changed his idea of what the ending was going to be. So I thought that that was a pretty powerful tribute.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And then, I mean, just to put a bow on the ending, I thought, you know, in. In the Searchers, the John Wayne character cannot come back inside after what he's done. Like, he is kept outdoors and in the wild as America starts to build, like, its community and its towns and its. Its sense of, like, society. Like, guys like that get left behind. So to have this end with Ali being brought inside to the dinner table, I thought was a striking difference in. It's an inversion of what, like, the imagery suggested initially. And. And it takes a. It takes a reference point and says, like, my thing is. Is like this. I. I loved that. I. The. The season ended. I. I think I have seen some. Some discourse about the. The last shot of the American flag billowing and being like, that this was somehow, like, Maga coded or that, like, the end of the ep, you know, that the end of the episode was, like, overly conservative. It's not what I got from it. You know, I did not that. You know.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah, to me, the. The flag is commenting on the transformation. There is a. If there is any optimism, and it's certainly streaked with grime, but if there is any optimism in the worldview of the show, it is that transformation is Perpetually possible in both directions. Yes. I'm interested in his sense of, like, can people change? Because the Nate storyline, again, if we're going to consider this to be a season of television, we need to.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, we need to talk about all of this stuff.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And so if you consider that storyline, I think that the message was, no, like people's demons. If they are evil in the sense, again, in the binary sense that Ali says in this episode that you're either helping the world or hurting it, then you cannot change, no matter how much you dress up or no matter how much good you intend to do with your senior center or whatever. But, you know, whether you are an addict like Ali or you are a, you know, and onlyfans model, you can change your presentation. You can transform quite easily and not just be accepted, but in the most American form of reward, you can get paid for it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I also think the dark side of that is that when you're a kid, the world feels more like. Even if you're. No matter what I think economic strata you come from, the world feels like a playground to some extent. Like, you don't make a distinction between work and play. Like, it's just existence, you know, until

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

everything is a hustle.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Until homework starts getting due. And then some of us rise to the occasion and some of us don't

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

want it at this table.

[Chris Ryan]

But as you get older, I think you still use the tools of your childhood to give your life shape and to give your life meaning. And another charitable way I could sort of understand Cassie, Lexi, Maddie is. You know, you talked about them playing dress up. You talked about it being like Bugsy Malone. I think that you could make the argument that that's what life is, is

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

fake it till you make it.

[Chris Ryan]

You basically are doing like this mimicry. You are doing like. I guess what I have to do is take the things that come naturally to me and see if I can make any money off of them. And for Lexi, it's telling stories, and for Cassie, it's taking pictures. And for Maddie, it's shaping those pictures and shaping, like, the way people perceive women. And for Nate, it was real estate, you know,

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

if only for those zoning boards.

[Chris Ryan]

The zoning boards killed him in the end.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Who do you think he's voting for in the mayoral election?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't. I mean, if he votes, we're going to have some. Some controversies.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Great point, Great point.

[Chris Ryan]

We could talk a little bit about some of the other plot lines. I think it's really worth noting that Hunter Schaefer does not speak in this episode. I think you could make. Look at that and be like, it is a beautiful final moment of wordless communion between two characters who loved one another very deeply. In. In. In Jules and. And Rue. You could also say Jules's last words to Rue were kind of like, this isn't gonna happen, so knock this fantasy shit off. Like, I'm here. This really works for me. I'm happy. Quote, unquote. What did you think of her Medusa painting?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I am not really. I don't feel qualified to comment on the character or the storyline because the character didn't really exist this season and didn't really have a storyline.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

So my response to that, I don't

[Chris Ryan]

believe one scene with any other characters besides Ellis the plastic surgeon and Rue.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Well, there was the wedding.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what I mean.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

The one scene. Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

And it was my favorite scene between any non Zendaya characters was the Nate

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

and Jules conversation, which again, I think was in many ways one of the most TV scenes in that it paid off. Something that had occurred over multiple seasons. So I don't feel qualified to comment on the performer, the performance character, really, other than to say I am not a fan of fictional painters expressing their emotion through paintings because inevitably they are not going to. I don't think you're. I don't know if they're gonna get the effect that you wish you could get from that.

[Chris Ryan]

They probably should not have shown the painting.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Sure. The painting seemed sort of silly to me, as did the sort of. Like, this is the sort of.

[Chris Ryan]

Can you imagine if Ellis was like, what the fuck is that?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

What are you doing? But like, sort of like the cho. Like there's more power in the silence and the expression of art. And the painting was like, you were serious about that? Like that. I didn't get that. And it felt. I mean, this is the thing that I think is ultimately certainly a challenge for me and I would imagine, whether it's, you know, on your dial, it's more or less, or maybe it's not articulated. But like, I think one of the real challenges of the season, and I guess it was an unavoidable one, is that it is ultimately a tweener. It was neither here nor there. It was neither committed to being a full throated continuation of a serialized television show that had a lot of character and emotion equity built into it, nor was it able to fully commit to being a. What I, you know, responded to in the trailer, which is a fuck you guys. This show is Something different now.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I think it definitely committed to the latter.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

It committed to the latter in terms of. In terms of its service to the audience. But the fact that some of these character strands were continually attended to, even limited. Like, my. What I'm trying to say is either do it or don't.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I completely agree with you.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I understand that Jules is part of Euphoria, and Hunter Schaefer is part of Euphoria, but there was no room for that character this season, frankly, regardless of scheduling. You know what?

[Chris Ryan]

I was kind of. I was watching it, and, you know, there have been shows that I think we either have a sense of how they were made or what sort of challenges went into making them, or, you know, we are aware of, like, scheduling mishaps or. Or issues that plague the show. I think the best possible version is when it comes out and it's like Exile on Main street, and it sounds like everybody's in the room.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

You stop asking the questions.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I mean? Like, it sounds like everyone's playing in a room, but in fact, it's like one guy's in France recording on an answering machine. And.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

But the art speaks for itself.

[Chris Ryan]

But the art speaks for itself. And I don't know that all. All the time. Euphoria was not Exile on Main Street. I think that the Jules and Nate plotline specifically felt like they took place in a different working environment than the rest of the show this season. And I think it was to its detriment. I want to talk to you a little bit about the fact that the show makes the choice not to do a bad news relay about ruining.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And not to do. Which is a term we sometimes throw around in the show about.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

It's the Broadchurch.

[Chris Ryan]

It came from Broadchurch. But it's basically each character finding out the same terrible news and having a.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

An Emmy reel.

[Chris Ryan]

An Emmy reel for it. I thought that was cool. I think we talked about. You could make the argument that to Maddie and Lexi ruse sort of a crazy character from their past. That is every once in a while will pop up on somebody's couch, but that this wasn't a big shock. But Levinson kind of went through a lot of plot bullshit to get Lexi to tell Maddie. Yes, that Rue is working for the D. A. And then Maddie told Alamo. And the only real acknowledgement of that seems to be when Ali says, I'm here for Rue or Ruth. Rue Bennett sent me. Like, they get a reaction shot from Matty, but it's not like a. Do you Realize what happened here?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah, no, it doesn't land. I mean, I think this is. I think you're articulating an example of what I was trying to say bothered me. Like it's a tweener. It's like you're servicing certain TV things, certain TV things, but then ultimately you kind of don't care about them. And it makes sense to me. And this, I mean as a truly. I mean this as a compliment. Why When Sam Esmail used to come on the show and he was praising Euphoria for its directorial vision and its aesthetic consistency, because like Sam, both Sams write and direct everything. You see things on this show like you did with Mr. Robot or Sam Esmail's other things that are contemptuous of some TV tropes. And it allows you to separate and make, engage with the material and make observations like we're making about, like. Well, it may have felt sudden or brutal or crazy cruel to dispatch Ru the way that. That the show did, but the show is actually telling you something about our engagement with protagonists and how we imbue hope into them when everything about their circumstance is telling you it's hopeless. You know, that's not. That's not traditional tv. Traditional TV would walk up to that edge and then maybe like the Hacks finale still give you all of the. The gushing emotion that is kind of your reward for watching the show. Euphoria didn't do that. And it leaves us making references to the Searchers and to Jewish prayers, you know, which is cool. We don't usually do that. But I think that the fact that it maybe was an ill fitting clothing this season, that it was still in the skin of a serialized television show. And most people engage with it that way, and I think they were. My sense is that people were either quite confused or quite pissed off by some of the storytelling choices.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, the choice not to show Rue's mother receiving the news, the choice to not have anybody else finding out about this, to see Storm Reed's characters, Rue's sister finding out about this, to she.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I mean, I think the thing.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that that feels like more like. That feels like more like something went wrong rather than a choice that was made.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes. That said, Sam can go on a podcast and say you're misreading the show. It is ultimately about the ways in which addicts in our lives are dead before the coroner comes. Yes, you can say that. And I've been carrying water for those arguments in this podcast, but you can't say that as A coming over the top argument ender to people who have engaged with a serialized television show with a certain set of expectations. They're not wrong. Just because you can intellectually articulate why you did something does not invalidate the emotional.

[Chris Ryan]

This is what I'm kind of trying to work through on in this conversation is like, how can I watch something that fundamentally doesn't work on so many levels that I still feel like it worked for me emotionally and intellectually in some ways? You know, like, I guess it just made me think about things that I usually don't think about when I'm watching

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

television and including what the are they doing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. But it made me think about addiction in. In a lot of different ways. And it made me think about the American west in ways that I hadn't really thought about in a while. And it made me think about forgiveness and why we go to the movies and all these things. And I was like, this is good, man. Like, this is bigger than I thought it was going to be. It was. It meant more to me than I thought it was going to be.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I also felt continually, and I'm not saying this as a negative, but like a writer director in a movie can have his or her one to two dozen hinge points, exclamation points, to express, like, scenes, moments, vibes that are crucial to understanding what that vision is. And the connective tissue in 90 minutes or two hours isn't really as important as we often think it is. Unless it's, you know, why did, why did Palpatine suddenly return? Like, if. If it's a personal story, you don't, you don't. You shouldn't ever watch them as a redditor. You watch them being carried along by someone trying to tell you something.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And I think where the limitations of the auteur model are evident in a show like Euphoria are you can absolutely have a constellation of these really bright, powerful, shining star moments that moved him and that tell the story that I think he clearly wanted to tell. The connective tissue between them was often either convoluted, ignored, underbaked, straight up.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Like the previous episode. Finish your point.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

No, and just to say that's why people have writers rooms, I am not saying euphoria would be better with a writer's room. It's just irrelevant to make that point. I'm saying. And sometimes the conversation creep of a writer's room can overthink everything until it's just mid. You know, but like, there's a moment in this episode that surprised me in ways that I was really excited by. Like I still don't understand and I never asked you why Laurie is the way she is and hangs out only with Nazis on a farm. I don't understand that her season two.

[Chris Ryan]

Kind of like she emerges in season two as like I believe like a local drug dealer that Fez is working with. I haven't rewatched season two, so some of this is just patching together memories. But her character is more like the layer of drug culture that you experience when like you are getting serious.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

You know, like all of a sudden this is the person behind the person.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And like it's not just dimebags and eight balls. It's like there's somebody who is like I'll give you this if you give me that. And like she. Her and. And Alamo emerging as these two basically satanic figures in the desert. I think it was almost. It's almost disconnected from who Laurie was in the second season.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

All that to say that like the moment when the guy who rodeo ropes rue Harley early in the episode when the scene is built. Because we've seen all the same movies Sam Levinson has seen that we understand he's going to reach for his gun and go out in a blaze of glory and everything's going to pop off when he doesn't worked. That was a moment of that I took notice of. Another.

[Chris Ryan]

Apparently this show is also about the healing power of dogs.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Of animals. Yeah, exactly. The dog told him not to do that.

[Chris Ryan]

This was like, okay.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

But like we are also at the point where the show where I was just like that is a decision and a statement that clearly has some significance to the creator and to the larger project. And then it goes. Goes off the rails. You know, she has this dramatic hanging off like there's. Then it goes crazy to get to the next one of those little

[Chris Ryan]

like it's so funny because we're having this kind of like clear eyed, full hearts conversation about this episode. And it like I said, plastic surgery. Brazilian butt lift. Lori blows her pants out when she hangs herself. Colostomy bags. Plastic surgery in Mexico. Fentanyl with scorpions printed on it. And Marshawn lynch getting into a threesome before he gets his dick blown off. I mean it is so like clip that coward exploit. It is exploit exploitation core.

[Commercial Announcer]

You know.

[Chris Ryan]

And so it's funny to also be like God damn. Like this brought me to tears. It is funny. It's. It's just like I guess that's the high and low that he's Working with.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And it really, really, really pissed people off in some ways. But I. Even though you're the newcomer to this, I just. I wasn't mad that Lexi or Nate or Cassie didn't have, like, three more story beats at the expense of all the Wayne Faye and Laurie stuff. I mean, like, I don't know why he did it necessarily, or I think it could have been a little bit more evenly distributed.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

But, yeah, I mean, I didn't understand what. But I also. Because I didn't know. I couldn't. I didn't feel. I didn't want to spend time with really, any of these other stories. But I also. That's not for me to say. I'm coming in late. And maybe that some of those scenes or some of the continuation of their stories was important for the viewers, but I also think, like, the. I keep looking because I never want to get his name wrong, but Adewale Akinnui Akbaje. If he wasn't on this show in that role, it would have been a catastrophe of historic proportions because the character is preposterous, somewhat intentionally preposterous. But to go from Rue's death to have him giving a disquisition on the power of female anatomy and the role it's played in his life was borderline insulting, honestly, to what the show was and ridiculous digression, or maybe not digression for what the character has been. And, you know, he came on the show like a cartoon and he went out like a cartoon, but there was an actor playing him who brought real gravitas and swagger and dark charisma and humanity to it, which is maybe the best we can hope for. I think that in a way, I know this sounds crazy, but I feel like the show got away with even more this season.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

By casting. And Daryl Brooke Gibson, too, and part of Bishop, who. He brought some. Some gravity and soul to a character that was mostly reaction shots and then suddenly had exposition in the last 15 minutes, you know, got away with it.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you understand why he turned on Alamo?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I think because of Maddie.

[Chris Ryan]

But was. Did he seem particularly enamored with Maddie before.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Before she liked his dog. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Not that I could tell. I mean, he was watching everything, and I can't believe.

[Chris Ryan]

But I thought he was mostly focused on Ru and was the one who's like, my Spidey senses are tingling.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Not that there's something up with this person who's now just all of a

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

sudden empathy for this person now. That's the other. I think ultimately the reaction is one of frustration because maybe Daryl Britt Gibson will do an interview where he's like, oh, we shot all these scenes where, you know, Bishop's sister died of a drug overdose and it triggered him or whatever, and she's the one whose dog it was. And that's what I was playing. But we didn't show it or, you know, you get away with it because he's a cool looking actor who did the fucking thing scene to scene.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And then you get by on again with the sort of surface artifice that the show can also skate by on. Either way, we'll never know the full answer and we have what we have. And maybe the best way to put a bow on it is we're never getting anything like this again. Like we're never getting anything like this again.

[Chris Ryan]

So that's actually a pretty good segue here. I mean, I, I hope people enjoyed our rather unique perspective on this series this season. And, you know, it was a fun experiment.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

It was a fun experiment at the beginning.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Hulu. Praised as Hulu's fresh spin on crime comedy, Deli Boys returns with an all new season. Philly's favorite corner store criminal family, the Dars, are back with more money, more problems and more stars, including Fred Armisen, Andrew Rannells and Kumail Nanjani, former BS Podcast guest. The Hulu original series Deli Boys is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundled subscribers. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a 2 PERCENTER. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Terms

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

of Play beginning and end.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll also just mention that not unlike when Succession and Barry ended on the same night, I believe. Wasn't that the same night?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I think that's right. I mean, you were kicking around Europe at the time.

[Chris Ryan]

I was. Hacks also ended this weekend. I'm going to just say one quick thing. I know you didn't get a chance to see this yet, but I know you've also read about it, so I'm not spoiling anything for you, but this will be spoilers for hacks, which we have not discussed. It was really interesting watching this with an avowed fan of the show, my wife, who I think was quite moved by the ending and was like, that was very satisfying. And I, I kind of have come in and out, like, as Hacks has gone on, I have like, kind of I'll watch an episode, maybe miss two or three, watch an episode and feel like I'm on top of what's happening. And in its own way, Hacks is not unlike what happened with Euphoria, where it brings in a relatively unexpected, though somewhat broadcast plot turn where Deborah gets. Has cancer that her A mass has. Has returned, and she's decided that it's going to be. She's going to choose to have assisted suicide in Switzerland rather than go through treatment. So her and Ava go on this sort of last Lost weekend in Paris. It's actually quite beautiful. Like, you know, obviously Paris is just

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

incredibly cinematic and filmable and just ran into Amanda Dobbins. She said the same thing, I bet.

[Chris Ryan]

And then, you know, they're going back and forth making jokes about dying, and Deborah has the revelation that she in fact has more jokes to tell, more work to do, and that that is a substitute that is essentially like standing in for. She also loves the people around her and has always learned to be a part of a community and is gonna go and try, you know, clinical trials of. Of new drugs for. For cancer. And, you know, as I was watching it, I was feeling like I was getting a little Chewbacca. Like, for. Was that.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Explain that, because that is still important to us. That was. No, that was the, the truly odious Rise of Skywalker.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. In Rise of Skywalker, there's like, you basically spend five minutes thinking Chewbacca has been blown up and.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

But somehow Chewbacca has returned.

[Chris Ryan]

But somehow Chewbacca has returned. And I got really mad on a podcast where I was like, you can't. What manipulate people like this. Like, you prepare them for the possibility that characters. People die. You take them through that experience and then you tell them actually psych.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And you get everything you. You hoard. You're like a. You're like Colin Robinson on, on what we do in the Shadows. You're an emotion vampire. You have stolen people's feelings and then said J.K. yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So I, I, it's interesting to look at the two in comparison. In some ways, Hacks was a much more complete, satisfying, and watertight finale. But it does. Euphoria does what Hacks didn't do, which is say, well, what if? What if? What we are actually telling you is is going to happen. Happened with, you know, with a main character. And how would people feel about that? I think Hacks killing Deborah would be, like, quite controversial. So I understand why they didn't do that. But it. It was interesting to see them play with stakes that were so severe.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And then decide to back off in the last minute.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I cannot criticize Hacks for that decision. From the perspective of someone who has just been advocating for the unspoken covenant between television creators and their audience, I think that there is, and this can be. This can hamstring creators creatively over the long term. But I do think shows, you know, I've said this before, teach you about themselves and tell you what they are even before they've reached the precipice of choosing an ending. And the worst endings tend to be the ones that betray that core belief at the last moment in search of something extra or something else. Or in this case, of some creators wanting to play a higher note they've been allowed to play on the keyboard of their show for this many seasons. Hacks. The reason I didn't stay with Hacks is nothing to do with what I believe to be, even from a distance, the consistency of hacks. People like Phoebe and the millions of others people and Emmy voters who love it are like. One of the reasons this show continues is because year in and year out, Deborah and Ava are delivering and the tone of the show is delivering and the stakes of the show are consistent. That's really, really hard to. To do. What I tapped out when I realized that the show's most provocative ideas about Deborah being a monster, about show business being a gaping maw of whatever was always going to be fixed with hugs and understanding before we run it back again. Sure, the constant breaking up and bringing back together. Well done artfully, was too much of a yo yo for me and reminded me of. I mean, Mike Schur is an executive producer of Hacks, but he.

[Chris Ryan]

He.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

It's not his show. Paul Downs and Lucianiello and Jen Statsky did the damn thing and ran the shit out of an enormously successful, beloved show. But Mike Schur is an executive producer of it. And there's a tendency that it reminded me of, ultimately, that. And he's made some of my favorite shows of all time, Parks and Rec and the Good Place, particularly unimpeachable, except for the one little thing, which is what I'm trying to articulate, which is every so often, the softness and the gentleness and the schmaltziness. And the optimism start to, like, overwhelm.

[Chris Ryan]

The TV knows, too.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah. And that's not a sin. The shows are good because there is a Leslie Knope and there's a Ron Swanson, and when they start hugging, that's when it starts to get a little. Anyway, so that was my interaction. That was my reaction with the thing, but, like, the reason why I walked away. But when you're describing that finale to me, I think. I think I would have been incredibly frustrated by it, but frustrated for the same reasons I'd been frustrated for three seasons. And ultimately that was the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. It's also, you know, it's hard to watch when you're just like, the bear is just clearly much funnier.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Exactly. Exactly. Where are the laughs in comparison?

[Chris Ryan]

I was just going to go through HBO's, like, current slate. Right. Really quickly. Okay, so you've got. I would say these are the sort of ones that are, like, kind of not propping up, but like, are the flagship sort of titles for HBO right now, which is White Lotus, Returning, currently shooting in the south of France. Task we know is coming back. Night of the Seven Kingdoms, critically, I believe, commercially very successful new iteration of Game of Thrones.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I actually was going to reference it when we talk about Star City.

[Chris Ryan]

Good. Gilded Age, the Pit Rooster. These are not all shows that we have love or talk about necessarily, but shows that I think are doing well for HBO are in. In current production. And obviously, I guess Dune Prophecy, which, with Dune 3 coming.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And I was just laughing. It's like, I guess, obviously.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, they brought it back and it's a Dune show, so I'm kind of like, it bears mentioning. Then there are the shows that are winding down or ending industry. House of the Dragon, Last of Us. Last of Us still may be on the air for a couple more years, but I think our. They're probably, like, thinking of ways to start bringing the ship back home. I think.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

They said four, didn't they?

[Chris Ryan]

They did. I don't. I don't know how long that's going to take, but. And then, you know, Halfman and dtf. We didn't talk about Halfman. DTF we talked about briefly, but those seem like one and dones.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I'm surprised. I mean, I don't know. I don't have insider knowledge on this, but. And I know it wasn't for us and it made people quite frustrated, but it does seem like DTF was a success, ratings wise and internally.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And so I have no idea about their. HBO's relationship with Steven Conrad or Steven. Conrad's desire to do any. But like, you could do DTF Des Moines. Like that could be White Lotus.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. Or you could do another Stephen Conrad show, which I think is what I. I would like to see. And then they have lanterns and House of the Dragon on the way imminently. And Harry Potter, obviously, at Christmas time. It's an interesting moment because, you know, like, I think we have.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Do you want me to talk about if Peeves is in it?

[Chris Ryan]

If who?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Peeves. Poltergeist. He wasn't in the movies. Oh, so that's two ways you haven't ever encountered this character. Go on.

[Chris Ryan]

We've done state of HBO conversations before. I think a lot of the slate looks very strong. It really doesn't matter because it's. It. It can't be repeated enough. They have been purchased by Paramount.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

You also, I think, left out the most interesting returning show on the HBO network set in Delaware county about a task force.

[Chris Ryan]

I said task force.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Did you say task? Yeah, sorry, I was blanking out.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm. We're having a problem. Not you and I, but like, you know when I was doing the buried alive thing last. Last episode, and I was like, hey, everybody, like, tell me who you think the best. Buried alive. Like, mine's definitely Kill Bill. And I got 10 million emails that were just like, Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill. And I'm like, I know I said that.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Unless I was having a stroke and didn't say that, but maybe I'm not

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

only a few of the emails distinctive enough.

[Chris Ryan]

Podcaster.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah, it's fine.

[Chris Ryan]

Anyway, I just thought I would mention that these two shows are ending that. That euphoria, which obviously was a intermittent presence in HBO's lineup and hacks, which has been a very consistent presence.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Well, Max has its two pit adjacent series coming. There's the police show.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that Catalina Island?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

No. What is that? Is that the family show?

[Chris Ryan]

No, that's the one about a guy, a sheriff on Catalina.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Is it about him policing the Catalina wine mixer?

[Chris Ryan]

I hope so.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

No, there's the Milo Ventimiglia show.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. There's a cop show.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And then there also there's a family drama being led by Ray Romano. Yeah. So I guess not. Like we just kind of did our best to find the positive and euphoria. So I don't want to do any more. What's the term the kids use? Glazing. But I do think what you described is actually a best case scenario. I think in terms of industry position of a network that has A very, very steady floor.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And it's a very different floor than HBO had 10 years ago or certainly 20 years ago in the sense that it is built on more mainstream facing stuff that works like Game of Thrones stuff and, and D.C. stuff and Bill Lauren's comedy rooster. And then also all of this broadcast minded all those things on Max. The optimist case for that is Paramount or whomever in the end. But probably Paramount is buying something pretty solid and that there is room to iterate on top of it. And there's room for Casey to say to all of the Ellisons, perhaps in some sort of like, remember when on Righteous Gemstones when the Gemstone siblings would receive people sitting on their three thrones. I imagine that's how the Ellisons do it. That's what it. That's what it'll be like where it's like Larry Ellison and the young Ellison.

[Chris Ryan]

Megan.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

No, not Megan. What's our guy?

[Chris Ryan]

David.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

David Ellison. And then maybe like Scott Besant or whatever being like, actually it's a good sign for the economy that everyone's poor in any way. Casey could be like, there's actually room here for me to take a little money off the top for like three more somebody somewheres or a bigger artistic splash. But do you feel like it's an end of an era in a different way?

[Chris Ryan]

No. I mean, I think it's an end of an era because of the corporate machinations. I don't think. I think. I think if anything, the end of succession in Barry should, should show us that we shouldn't do this. Kind of like, what's HBO going to do now that Hacks is gone? It's like, I think they'll figure out

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

we just did it.

[Chris Ryan]

I know.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

You think we shouldn't do the things we just did?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I think that the reason to. To be like, I wonder what's going to happen next for HBO is because they are going to be part of a different corporate parent. Not because they, they continuously, you know, and they morph.

[Commercial Announcer]

They.

[Chris Ryan]

They change. There's. There's always going to be these, like, HBO 2027 is not going to look like HBO 2021, but it, you know, it. We always wind up kind of coming back home.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Did you mention Harry Potter in the list of show?

[Chris Ryan]

I did, man. Yeah. Yeah. Is that where Pe.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Pes.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. Peeves or bees?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Were you doing the Arrested Development bit?

[Chris Ryan]

Beads.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Bees. Peeves, man.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk about a show before we get out of here that I love and I did. I I knew I was going to like it. I didn't think I was going to be blown away by it the way I was. We're talking about Star City. This is a. I guess it's a spinoff. There are characters in Star City that appear in For All Mankind played by

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

different actors, I think.

[Chris Ryan]

Different actors. It's set in the 60s in Russia, then the Soviet Union. This comes from Matt Wolpert, Ben Daviti and Ronald Moore, who are also in

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

charge of For All Mankind.

[Chris Ryan]

For All Mankind. Although I believe Wolpert and Naviti basically do the brunt of that.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes, they are the showrunners of both of these projects.

[Chris Ryan]

And I'm gonna say this, and I don't really have a way of making this statement true, but it's how I feel.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this the Andor of For All Mankind. Star Wars?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Wow. Okay, sure.

[Sponsor Announcer]

They.

[Chris Ryan]

Chernobyl. This. This is a hundred.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

It's rare to see a project of such depth. Deep, deep influence, but also kind of get away with it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So it is Russian characters speaking in English accents portrayed by English speaking performers for the most part. I believe it stars Reese Ifans as the chief designer of the Soviet space program. Anna Maxwell Martin as Ludmila Raskova, a KGB intelligence officer who oversees the security of that space program. And then it's got a bunch of performers that I am either now fans of or never seen before. So we have Agnes o' Casey playing Irina, who will turn up on For All Mankind eventually. And she is Raskova's new protege at the kgb.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Oh, wait, so this character is on. The reason it's a different actor is because it's an older version of the character on For All Major.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Apparently.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that they showed up on. She shows up in season four. Alice Englert, who plays Anastasia Belikova, the first woman in space.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

First woman on the moon. Dog.

[Chris Ryan]

Sorry, on the moon, yeah. Adam Negatis and Sally McLeod. They play Valya and Sasha respectively, who are two.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And Adam we know because he was one of the firefighter buddies on Chernobyl.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. And there are some Chernobyl faces on this show. The. I mean, this is not really like a piece of cultural criticism. I like watching trained English, Irish, Welsh and otherwise actors imbuing scripts with just incredibly lived in performances. Immediately this feels like a 70s conspiracy thriller with a sci fi. A plausible realistic sci fi bent. It's an alternative history of the space race For All Mankind is told from the US perspective. This told from the Soviet perspective. And what you get in the first episode is essentially Roskova is leading a mole hunt inside of the stars program.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Star City.

[Chris Ryan]

Star City. And when the prospective first woman on the moon is thought to be a spy for the Americans, she's replaced by Anastasia Belikova, played by Angler. And because it's thought that Anastasia will be more pliant to the party's needs. And meanwhile, so that whole like going up to the moon with a woman

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

is happening and it's quite tense and well shot.

[Chris Ryan]

It is gorgeous. Nick Murphy directed this first two batch, this two episode batch that went up. And then the second episode, which I don't want to get too far into because you haven't had a chance to see it, is about Anastasia's victory and promo tour and the ways in which they are using her to sort of as a propaganda piece. But deepening the mole hunt and Irina's being pulled into the dark side of security work for the kgb. I don't know if there is a light side of security work for the kgb.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah, sort of the light.

[Chris Ryan]

Who's like the Luke Skywalker of the kgb.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I guess we're going to find out.

[Chris Ryan]

The show is fucking awesome. It uses, in much the same way Chernobyl does, the brutalist, decaying textures of Lithuania. They shot in Lithuania.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Hell, yeah. Shout out Lithuania.

[Chris Ryan]

To just give everything this kind of like light cigarette smoked on moldy, decaying. The lights don't always work feel. And yet at the same time, you know, you're watching this moment of great optimism and idealism, and to see it sort of broadcast in this different way, in both. Two different ways. One, if the Soviets made it to the moon first. But two, in this way in which, like every victory is also a thing that needs to be controlled, a thing that needs to be interrogated, a thing that needs to be buttoned up. Whereas on the US side, everything is sort of this expression of a new kind of American exceptionalism.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And American imperialism.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I mean, it's beautifully characterized in the scene in which the chief designer is rewarded for his absolutely outrageous victory, but it's in an empty room and he has to give the medal back.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Paul Spriggs is the name of the production designer who previously worked on sex education, which is a very different palette. Yeah. So Bravo, production designers, unsung heroes of all television.

[Chris Ryan]

So for as much as this is. First of all, I just want to get your general thoughts on the episode you watched.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Well, I kind of want. I loved it and I can't wait to watch more this may seem counterintuitive, but my reference point for watching the show was actually Spider Noir, which we talked about last week, which is to say I no longer understand what gets greenlit and what doesn't. Nothing makes sense to me anymore. For All Mankind, which is a sturdy show in terms of its, I believe, its performance and the engagement that it gets for Apple, is not a hit show, I think by any metric, even within Apple's own, you know, not many people have Apple, despite its ubiquity and its unlimited budgets. So the fact that that series is getting a Russian centered spin off back in the 60s, in many ways telling the B side to a story that was the story of the first season of For All Mankind, which was eight years ago, is fucking crazy. Like spinoffs, spin offs, in their best case, don't retain the full audience of

[Chris Ryan]

the mothership with re siphons and Anil

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Maxwell Martin Lisbon leading it and without any attempt to make this sexy.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not like Russell Crowe is playing this guy. You know what I mean? It's like they didn't.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

No. There seems to be an understanding that this is going to be mostly an artistic, frankly, project in the shadow of a show that hasn't set the world on fire. Now, maybe this will be a wonderful outcome for everyone where what we felt about the first episode or two episodes will be borne out by the rest of it. And then it'll have a sudden surge and may, you know, become incredibly popular in its own right. And we'll do our best to make that happen. But it's wild to me. Is it a. Is it? And secondarily, I think we should say for people listening, you do not need to watch For All Mankind, I think to engage.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I've watched two and a half seasons

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

of For All I watched the first two seasons. I was talking to my daughters about it on the way to school because they asked what we were talking about on the podcast and then they asked me to tell them everything that happened at the end of Euphoria.

[Chris Ryan]

How did you do that?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I mostly focused on the laxatives that Wayne took because that kind of humor always sells, especially on the way to school. The premise of For All Mankind remains elite and so cool and so compelling and such a great use of television to be like, no, let's do this and let's really, really try it. But I found it too big and too ambitious and I just didn't enjoy the watching of it as much as I admired it. I don't think you need to have watched it. To watch this or to appreciate it. I just spent half this episode being like, how are we getting this? This is wild. But I should not question it. I'm glad they're spending their money on this.

[Chris Ryan]

There was something kind of like. And I don't mean this as a blanket criticism of a show that I haven't watched in a couple of seasons. I've kept up with what's kind of happening on all mankind.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

So for all mankind, from what I understand, every season is a decade leap forward into this alternate history. Yeah, they're in history.

[Chris Ryan]

They're in the 90s, I think, now,

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

or into the 2000s. And now there is a full colony on Mars.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Because the idea of for all mankind, the fundamental rupture in our space and time, is that the Russians won, which is what we see happen in the opening moments. Beautifully and brilliantly. I mean, pilots are hard. The opening moments of the show are so excellent at bringing you into everything that this show's gonna be about and also making you understand something, if you are a fan of the other show, that you're going to be seeing it from the other side.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And it's like the paranoia and terror that then mixes with a moment of triumph and pride is really, really excellent.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And the domestic versus the. Just a completely different perspective on it. It's so, so, so well done. But that the idea that in For All Mankind, this loss of the space race led to an American obsession of catching up, which led to a completely transformed second half of the century into the new century in which space is everything.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

As opposed to something we did and we won and we moved on from.

[Chris Ryan]

There are these character moments, and I. You know what? I want you to watch the second one, and then we could talk about it in more detail. But what I will say is that I'm sure if I did, like, a forensic scouring of what's happened on For All Mankind, I could come up with, like, a pretty solid synopsis of what's going to happen on Star City. But there are these character beats that I find enchanting. Enchanting in a way that, like, kind of reminds me of the. Of Battlestar Ronald Moore's Battlestar Galactica. Of, like, you start out and you think, this is going to be the mechanic. I get it. And you're like, oh, my God, I had no idea. Like, this is where we were going to wind up. And even some of the cosmonauts are being given character depth that you just didn't, you know, you Would not necessarily need to imbue the seventh guy on the show with this. Like, this is what I want, and. But this is who I am, and this is the frustration that comes along with it. It's. It's really, really top notch tv, and I'm really excited to keep watching it. I think you're going to adore the second episode even more. Oh, I think so. Yeah. And if I had a critique of all for All Mankind, even though I, you know, I like Joel Kinnaman as a performer, I like a lot of the people who are on it. There was a certain kind of like, it's not like a falseness. There was like, I was always aware that I was watching people on a TV show.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

And it felt like dress up. And this doesn't. Even though there is a complete artifice to the fact that all of these people are Russians speaking English, the least

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

generous take on that is that they found the Chernobyl filter that works. That's a filter on the show. The way they speak accented English as Russian, the way Russian sounds in English, you know, referring to people as chief designer, which actually is more common in Russian than it would be in English. But we speak this fictional language now. Yes. And they're doing a great job of doing a show in that language. It's not just mimicry. Yeah. We got a couple things on the cast. Couple of small notes.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

One, happy to see Elliot Salt. She plays the other listening person. Remember, she was on Slow Horses in, like, two seasons ago.

[Chris Ryan]

Damn, that's a.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

This lady recognized her immediately for that. Love seeing these people. That's a good work.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I'm paying close attention partly because, as you know, I'm constantly on Nepo Watch ever since we started this podcast. And I've looked across at you, you know, it's Nepo Watch as I stand

[Chris Ryan]

on the shoulder of giants.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I mean, who amongst. I mean, what other critics were willing to shit on Godfather too? You know, in a way, like, imagine he would have killed on a podcast. So I think we have to talk about the fact that Alice Englert is clearly the daughter of.

[Chris Ryan]

You have to defend this.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

No, I don't actually.

[Chris Ryan]

Atticus Finch.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

This is actually fun for me. No, she is the daughter of Jane Campion, who is the. She was in Top of the Lake, her mom's TV show. She's awesome. I don't actually have a take on this. It was just funny to see that it is. And as it was funny to see that Tanya Mironova, who's one of the cosmonaut's wife who's keeping up a little something on the side is Andy Serkis daughter.

[Chris Ryan]

I did not know that.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah. Her name being Ruby Serkis didn't give it away.

[Chris Ryan]

The character who I think has been the one that has blossomed for me the most is Alice Englertz Anastasia character.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

She is a. The Nepo thing is a joke, especially when we're talking about a dedicated artistic person like Jane Campion and her family. Like, I'm not really worried about the benefits of the leg up she got in the Kiwi film industry, but it's

[Chris Ryan]

actually, I think when she's like at auditions, they're like, top of the lake must be nice.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

No. The piano. Huh? When did your mom show you that?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

No, I think that as an actor, she is surprising in her presentation, in her line readings, in what she brings to it. And this is just through one episode that like, you notice.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And that's especially noteworthy casting. I think in a show in which the aesthetic is primary, that everything is kind of brutalist and gray and there's snow and you can't do pops of color to distinguish. Oh, well, that character wears a saucy scarf. That's telling us something. No, they can't do that. So casting becomes even more important.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

And the contrast that the show does between her and the cosmonaut that she replaces within the episode is expertly done.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. We will continue to talk about this. The third episode goes up on Friday. So maybe, maybe we'll talk a little bit about episode two on Thursday. But I think we'll probably consistently chat about this show throughout its season, if I had to guess.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Yeah. And then we're going to hit maximum pleasure. We're going to stay in the Apple.

[Chris Ryan]

Apple's just got us. We do nothing but serve our big brother, Tim Apple. Yeah. So Widow's Bay on Thursday, Top Chef on Thursday. Maybe a little bit more Star City.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Kristen said this is her favorite episode of Top Chef this season.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Did you know that?

[Chris Ryan]

I did not know that. That's good to know.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

I also heard this is just. Now we're just into Reddit stuff, but, like, a PA who worked on the show said that the edit actually helped Seeker because it was much worse.

[Chris Ryan]

The edit of how. Of his behavior during the jury or his. The edit of, like, his cooking?

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

No, no, the jury, like his.

[Chris Ryan]

His crash crashed out and that they were like, let's be decent about this.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Release the Seeker. Cut.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

That's. That's my hill.

[Chris Ryan]

Seeker stands. Hit us up about your man.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Tell us. Just. Just tell us about what it's like eating melted chicken.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you for watching Euphoria with me. Thank you for podcasting with me today.

[Co-host (Possibly a TV Critic or Media Analyst)]

Thank you for inviting me.

[Chris Ryan]

We're gonna be back on Thursday, and everybody have a good week, okay?

[Commercial Announcer]

It.