Is ‘Widow’s Bay’ Too Good? Plus ‘Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed’ and ‘Top Chef’

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Watch (The Ringer)

Episode: Is ‘Widow’s Bay’ Too Good? Plus ‘Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed’ and ‘Top Chef’
Hosts: Andy Greenwald & Chris Ryan
Date: June 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

Andy and Chris dive into their weekly pop culture rundown, focusing this week on the Apple TV mystery/comedy Widow’s Bay (which leads to the question: is it too good?), the genre-bending thriller Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, and the penultimate episode of Top Chef’s 23rd season. Along the way, they explore streaming strategies, the creative state of TV (vs. movies), inventive spinoffs, and the evolving landscape of IP adaptations. The conversation, as always, is a blend of insight, industry gossip, and irreverent humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Media Landscape: Institutions, IP, & New Blood

• Changing Guard in TV News & Institutions

  • The hosts riff on the recent shakeups at 60 Minutes, lamenting how ego and disregard for legacy may undermine respected institutions.
  • Andy: “The ego of that is fucking lame. And why we are where we are.” (06:41)

• Movies vs. TV — State of the Art

  • Chris notes the current “generational moment” for movies (Backrooms, Obsession), inspired by friends’ excitement and new voices making waves.
  • Andy draws a parallel to TV, arguing that recent TV successes (The Pit, etc.) worked not by reinventing storytelling, but by reigniting collective viewership — “reminding multiple generations and teaching a new generation that this little box used to give us a story every week.” (11:19)
  • IP and streaming strategies come under the microscope, with both recognizing Apple’s “flood the zone” content deluge and questioning whether younger audiences care about old franchises.
  • On Cape Fear as TV IP: “Who was asking for this? ...People are tuning in to watch Bart do De Niro and do Mitchum.” (13:17)

• TV’s Unique Challenges vs. Film

  • Andy explains why TV is tougher for “outsider” creatives to break into — “television is an assembly line,” requiring more infrastructure and experience than indie film. (15:31)

2. Creative Game: “Star City” POV Spin-Offs (20:15–31:00)

Andy and Chris play a creative game: invent spinoffs that retell classic TV shows from a fringe or alternate point of view, inspired by the For All Mankind/Star City approach.

• Notable Suggestions:
  • The Russians — The Americans from KGB’s Moscow perspective.
  • The Smoking Section — X-Files as seen by the Cigarette Smoking Man. “It’s basically a guy who loves smoking and has to fend off these pesky FBI agents…” (22:09)
  • Recreation and Parks — Parks & Rec told by rich rival town Eagleton, starring Parker Posey & Sam Elliott.
  • Valley Boy — Industry as told by Rob in California.
  • Mad Mitzvah — “Jewish Mad Men,” ad agency hijinks with a kosher twist. “Everything is the same, except you can’t mix meat and dairy.” (30:16)
  • Thoroughbreds — The Slow Horses MI5 team if they weren’t screwups, but actually elite.

Chris: “All TV shows are men frustrated that other men are doing better.” (25:22)

3. Widow’s Bay — Is It Too Good? (33:13–47:43)

• Praise for Widow’s Bay

  • Chris: “I almost am getting to the point with this where I’m like, I don’t really have any notes, man.” (34:39)
  • The show is lauded for blending horror, humor, and emotional depth. They highlight the monster-of-the-week structure, homage episodes, and the stellar writing/performances.
  • Specific moments praised: Patricia wielding the shotgun (“Hell yeah Patricia!” – Andy, 35:34), and holding it during cremation of the boogeyman; the seamless mix of broad comedy and serious drama.

• Writing Masterclass

  • Andy highlights the show’s narrative discipline — “How do you do that... It does not feel like whiplash to go between those storylines.” (38:32)
  • They dissect how the writers avoid rote TV drama by resolving conflicts quickly and giving characters dimensionality, leading to both comedic and affecting moments.
    • Chris on Tom and Evan’s reconciliation: “Most other shows would be like, now these two are angry at each other so Evan is going to put himself in danger… This show has the confidence and fearlessness... they’re not afraid to resolve stories.” (39:56)
    • Andy: “Good character writing is yes, and-ing.” (42:51)

• Ongoing Questions

  • They puzzle over the macro-mysteries: What is the nature of the Warren lineage curse? Is Evan the last of the line? Does Tom’s desire to “save” Evan endanger him?
  • Chris: “I am so dazzled on an episode-to-episode basis … that I am actually a little bit behind on my ‘so what is going on here?’” (43:45)

• Slasher Homage

  • Chris: “The slow, methodical pace of the slasher that seems to always keep up with the running, screaming victim… Patricia turning into the final girl and hilariously holding a shotgun on him in the ambulance — it’s amazing.” (47:31)

4. Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed (50:02–61:53)

• Setup & Style

  • Chris recaps the premise: Tatiana Maslany stars as a New Yorker whose cam sex session with a man ends in his murder — or is it a scam?
  • The show is praised for blending sleek, screen-laden modernity with relatable, grounded character work.
  • Andy: “This may be the most successful product integration show that Apple has had in a number of years…The show correctly uses the most annoying Apple ringtone to be annoying.” (53:04)

• Plot & Execution

  • Both like the focused pilot (directed by David Gordon Green); note that as the show expands to multiple supporting players and juggles multiple timelines/flashbacks (often using “cliffhanger then flashback” storytelling), its structural ambition becomes apparent — for better or worse.
  • Chris: “They’re doing a lot of, like, cliffhanger and then flashback to explain the cliffhanger. ...It turns into a little bit of, ‘We’re wrapping the story around the concept of a cliffhanger’ rather than over how a cop would find out about information.” (55:31)

• Performance Shoutouts

  • Maslany is praised for kinetic energy, Jake Johnson for playing against type, and Murray Bartlett for his villainous turn.
  • They tease the Nepo Baby of the Week: Julia Louis-Dreyfus’s son as a supporting character.
    • Andy: “You know, I’m on Nepo watch. He’s good.” (58:50)

• Longevity?

  • Are limited thrillers better as weekly TV or as one-off movies?
  • Chris wonders if the procedural format (Paula as PI helping scam victims) would be more satisfying than a single drawn-out arc. (63:12)

5. Top Chef S23, Penultimate Episode (65:07–77:39)

• Best Episode Yet?

  • Chris: “It was my favorite episode of the season, I think.” (71:09)
  • The judges finally appear delighted; the final four push each other with creative, high-level cooking.

• Challenge Structure

  • After a silly “20 Questions” ingredient guessing game, the main event is all about innovative plating and executing signature dishes.
  • Drama comes from kitchen mishaps (Lawrence’s rice wraps and oven troubles), not forced panel conflict.

• Character Notes

  • Rhoda’s momentum, Sherry’s steely confidence, and Jonathan’s “bread and butter” ambitions are all discussed.
  • Andy, wryly: “It was obvious Jonathan was going home. Even when it was revealed, he did a very good job because the ambition...was so much less.” (74:43)

• Production Critiques

  • Hosts express disappointment at the “claustrophobic” feel of penultimate events, missing the globe-trotting finales of seasons past.

6. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the absurdities of IP mining:
  Andy: “Even if [the Masters of the Universe movie] is good, there’s a cynicism baked in the root of it…they’re not converting a new generation to follow the story of Eternia. There wasn’t even really a story.” (15:04)

• On TV writing:
  Andy: “Sometimes all of the work that you do is in pursuit of the simplest solution.” (40:33)

• On creative confidence:
  Andy: “This show is the product of enormous creative confidence…Whatever the secret sauce is, they all understood the assignment.” (43:10)

• On procedural TV’s strengths:
  Chris: “I almost feel like I’d be more curious about the version of this show that is Paula solving this whole thing in an episode and then the rest of the season is Paula Private Detective helping people who’ve been scammed.” (63:12)

• On Top Chef’s vibe:
  Andy: “Excellence begets excellence on Top Chef. The best episodes are ones where Tom is happy, where everyone has done a good job…and the conversation is more about nitpicks rather than how obvious it was that someone just face planted.” (74:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start Time | |---------------------------------------|-------------| | Opening/Media Industry Talk | 01:05 | | Movies vs. TV Cultural Moment | 10:00 | | “Star City” POV Game | 20:15 | | Widow’s Bay Deep Dive | 33:13 | | Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed | 50:02 | | Top Chef Commentary | 65:07 | | Notable Quotes & Banter | Throughout |

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Tone & Style

The episode crackles with the hosts’ trademark mix of (nerdily) deep industry knowledge and lighthearted irreverence (digressions on frozen peas, nostalgia for X-Files, and “Nepo Watch” for every new show abound). Chris and Andy toggle easily between praise, dry wit, and surgical critique, making the conversation accessible and insightful for veteran watchers and pop culture newbies alike.

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Useful for Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This summary provides all major thematic beats (without non-content sections), clear timestamps, and plenty of “you had to be there” lines so listeners can jump directly to the topics or shows that most interest them. The hosts’ chemistry and mode of thinking are preserved, giving a taste of the podcast’s unique voice.

Transcript

[Andy Greenwald]

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[Chris Ryan]

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[Andy Greenwald]

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[Chris Ryan]

need sports to have to clear the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, he doesn't want a refund. He just wants the person who did this to find out. It's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was a joyful opening for what might be a sad show. I wanted to let you know that I have accepted an offer to run 60 minutes. I feel qualified to do this based

[Chris Ryan]

on you have a little bit of a built in vibe to you, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow, in what sense?

[Chris Ryan]

Gadfly, Overconfidence, Spectacled.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Ready to tear down Boomer privilege industry to industry.

[Chris Ryan]

Just sort of like hey guys, let's open the box and then throw the box off the table.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jokes aside, I do believe I was a finalist. But his writing credit on the Idol I think is what pushed him over the top.

[Chris Ryan]

We can talk about 60 minutes if you want. We can also talk about name Widow's Bay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Maximum pleasure guaranteed.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Top Chef. Okay, I have a prompt for you that's related to Star City but will not involve people having watched our city

[Andy Greenwald]

and will not be in its native Russian.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I have a couple of things to say. One, you can email [e-mail] youm can follow us on Instagram at thewatchpod. Underscore. Yeah, you that's on Instagram. And then you can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer Dash TV channel along with the Prestige TV podcast. They are going to be rocking Cape Fear on Friday. You and I both gritting our teeth trying to decide. Are we jumping back in with Max? Katie? I don't know. What else, what else, what else? You can also listen to us on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. I told you what we're listening to today. And Star City. We'll probably talk about episodes two and three in detail on Monday. So if people are watching, I will repeat to anyone who skipped through our Star City conversation. A, I love it. B, you don't need to have seen for all mankind to appreciate it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Star City got the rare CR Instagram boost.

[Chris Ryan]

Did it?

[Andy Greenwald]

You. You posted on Instagram that you like?

[Chris Ryan]

Because I don't think in the title it talked about how much I liked it. And Star City is one of these weird shows that people are like. Like, I was texting with a friend last night, you should watch Star City. And she was like an Apple show that no one's heard of. Say less like which we will be talking about Apple tv. It's a weird Apple TV moment. They've got a ton of stuff on right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, this. This moment is an argument for their frankly, borderline irresponsible strategy, which is to flood the zone. And they have a number, a disproportionate number of good to very good to. In one case, absolutely great series on the air right now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So. So kudos to Tim Apple.

[Chris Ryan]

I did have a Star City thing for you. Hey, do you like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hey.

[Chris Ryan]

Actually really like with the 60 minute stuff?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't. When's the last time you watched 60 Minutes? Like, sat down and watched it and

[Andy Greenwald]

Andy Rooney retired When.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, this spirit is with us in the room.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let me just say blink twice.

[Chris Ryan]

Andy Rooney has been doing this podcast with me.

[Andy Greenwald]

Conservatively, I would say 1989.

[Chris Ryan]

Are we really sure Sydney Sweeney knows what she's doing?

[Andy Greenwald]

Show me the line.

[Chris Ryan]

Why did I Jiminy Glick that?

[Andy Greenwald]

When's the last time you saw 60 Minutes? Sam Levinson, there's opportunity here. Do you want to commit to this?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. 60 Minutes. Have you watched it? No, I watched it some with my mom over the last couple of years. It was obviously a staple. And I think for most people it's kind of a. The tick, tick. Tick means it's time for school, Nick. Tomorrow.

[Andy Greenwald]

But yes, it means football's over.

[Chris Ryan]

I watched a episode not too long ago because it got recommended to me somehow, I think in YouTube to watch none other than Scott Pelly piece about ghost truckers. Serbian ghost truckers. I spoke about this story on the. On the. Wait a second podcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Didn't you have the Tyler Singer of Serbian Ghost Truckers on the pod when I was.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, they broke up after that, but that's okay. No, but it was a great piece about trucks on the American highways that are basically circumventing Department of Transportation rules. I don't know if the Department of Transportation has rules any longer. Yeah, all those guys are just bronzing statues in D.C. now, getting ready for 250.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sean Duffy's making his reality show, but

[Chris Ryan]

it was an incredible piece of journalism that like definitely made me look at trucks, the roads and trucks differently. So it's disappointing if it winds up going away or turning into something that is a pale shadow of itself.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I just separate and I'm not going to sit here and pretend of itself. I don't watch, I didn't watch the Stephen Colbert program. I don't watch 60 Minutes. I'm not going to engage with the merits of those programs specifically or the larger conversation about market trends for late night shows and television broadcast news.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

What the joke at the top was more like, I just find this all so borderline despicable. The, the, the ego and the incompetence in a perfect encapsulation of what living in America has felt like for the last 10 years, where people who have. It's not about having reverence for the institution, like listen. Who are bigger hashtag disruptors than the two of us.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's about the presumption that you watch

[Chris Ryan]

TV on our phones.

[Andy Greenwald]

The presumption that the Barry Weiss's of the world and the Nick Bildens of the world know better because they are challenging orthodox groupthink or whatever, that you could be a Vanity Fair editor and a screenwriter, both of which are fine professions, and be like, yeah, I could probably run the most stable and respected news organization in the history of television news. Internationally probably as well. The ego of that is fucking lame. And why we are where we are.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, I think that my only take on it really is that this is the, this is an example in the media. Like, you know, you could make your arguments about how much it costs are on a late night show versus what it actually brings in in terms of ad revenue versus what it brings in terms of viewership. 60 Minutes is a profitable and popular television show that I think is relatively popular across a political spectrum because it

[Andy Greenwald]

is not the nation.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It never has been.

[Chris Ryan]

So it's strange that I think to me, what, what I respond to in the stories that I've Read about the upheaval at the show is just a disgust on the part of the new leadership with the principles and processes that go into making 60 Minutes principles. But it's just the idea that, like, you know, because this may not bend around the shape of a narrative that I want out there or that I want to tell, I want to do away with certain methods of producing good journalism. And it. It's just like. I think journalism just became too big of a tent.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Where it's just like they're. They're just. I just think that, like, 60 Minutes did a really good job telling stories that people didn't know in a very fastidious way, and now it's, like, going to be yet another thing. Bastion of OP Ed.

[Andy Greenwald]

You just ask Gemini, bro. Look, I just feel like these, like, these avaricious climbing bootlickers are behaving like nothing's ever gonna swing back. And maybe they're right. Yeah. And joke's on us. But generally, pendulums swing, and then what are we doing? And then what are the ruins that we're left with? So I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

Cool. I had a.

[Andy Greenwald]

See you guys next week. Let's talk about the Top Chef finale.

[Chris Ryan]

Prompts with you for the. For the top of the show. I have participated in and listened intently to Sean and Amanda documenting this moment in movies on the big Picture. So I went on.

[Andy Greenwald]

How do you document it when you're not on the show? Do you take notes?

[Chris Ryan]

When are they documented? I listened to their document.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, they've been documented.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I was on the Backrooms episode and the Obsession episode talking about those two movies individually. And then since then, Sean and Amanda have talked really, really intelligently about, like, what it means for movies. Sean wrote a great piece in on his substack projection about, you know, I don't even know is it. It is projections. I. For a second, I thought it was a singular projection, but that wouldn't really make sense.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not that he lives his life.

[Chris Ryan]

No. On his substack, he wrote a great piece about, like, what this moment means in movies. And it has been a minute since. Since I have felt that way about tv. I also have a different relationship to television than Sean does to movies, where I think Sean very much sees the movies as a kind of, like, quasi third space religious kind of pastime for himself. And television is cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is how I feel about movies and tv, too. Honestly. I don't think he's wrong.

[Chris Ryan]

No. Yeah. But I don't have, like, that William H. Macy and Sports Night like tyrval conversation about television being the American campfire kind of thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have a William H. Macy and Boogie Nights attitude towards people working between the two mediums.

[Chris Ryan]

What am I trying to ask about this? We've had conversations before about whether any outsiders could come into television and talked about the, the hurdles to like independent television making and how expensive and complicated it is to put together a long form series. But it does feel like obsession and backrooms have moved into like pole position and moved movies into like a real like center of the culture. Kind of everybody, you know, people at the gym, people at the coffee shop are like, hey, have you seen backrooms? Have you seen this? Like, what's, what did you think of it?

[Andy Greenwald]

So I would say it's interesting the way you're framing it, because I think there's a different way to look at it. I think there's a way to look at the rise in an important way, certainly for the big picture podcast and the movie industry to look at the success of those movies as fresh blood coming in, fresh voices, fresh perspective and audiences desire and getting away from IP taken on those trips. What I would counter with is the most recent comparison to something like a phenomenon like backrooms would be the Pit. And the reason I say the Pit is not because these are young people showing you a fresh way in. That is the opposite of what the Pit is. It is old hands. What both have done though, I would say is remind people why we engage with these mediums in the first place in a collective celebratory way. Meaning the Pit has both reminded multiple generations and taught a new generation that this little box used to give us a story every week. And it used to give us stories that we were excited about, surprised by, compelled by, and it built over time. And we would talk about it like, I think it is safe to say that like in terms of water cooler chat, if people, even for those of you who aren't working from home, like the Pit dominates, people were talking about it in a way that we used to talk about television shows. So I think that in terms of putting things back in the center of culture in a way that felt both affirming for those of us who work in those spaces, but also giving us a sense of optimism that maybe a new generation might begin to speak that language, that would be the comparison.

[Chris Ryan]

That's an awesome take.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thanks, man.

[Chris Ryan]

I gotta tell you, I, you know, I don't even have like one that's comparable. I think that, you know, I was listening to the Town and Matt and Lucas Shaw were talking about this phenomenon. And Craig chimed in, Craig Horlbeck, who was our producer on the Rewatchables as well, and was just like, you guys are going back and forth about whether studios are gonna keep making ip. And he's like, the point is, is that like, younger people don't give a shit about 1980s franchises or 1990s franchises. And we'll see. I mean, there's a world in which you can ab test this easily, but, like, there's a world in which Cape Fear is a sensation. There's a world in which, like, not a single person, you know, watches it. But it's an example of something where it was like, who was asking for this? Is this even intellectual property that is worth, worthy of expansion? It's. They've had two movies. You can say you're going back to the book, but we all know, like, people are tuning in to watch Bart do De Niro and do Mitchum.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

What is kind of like you're taking something that was a polished diamond of a thriller and now expanding it, I believe to 10 hours.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think the comparison, though, I think Cape Fears, the margin for Cape Fear isn't going to convince anyone. I think when we talked about it before, that at whatever level these conversations exist at Apple, I don't think they are actively saying, or at least they're not even addressing the idea of like reinventing Cape Fear for a new generation. Yes, this is comfort, prestige, food for a generation that doesn't go to the movies anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

The. The comparison, I think that Craig was right to point out would be there's a fucking he man movie opening this

[Chris Ryan]

weekend and it's apparently pretty good.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, but. Okay, stop.

[Chris Ryan]

You dead in your tracks.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is not a. That was a take.

[Chris Ryan]

I was not a he man. Was it? But so I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Those toys were fine. Those toys.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that there are guys out there waiting to see Skeletor do his work like this for a long time.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wake me when Tony Gilroy does the Orko spin off. Okay? Just let, let me know when that's on the docket, okay? You're too afraid of my dangerous ideas. That's why I'm in here.

[Chris Ryan]

I recently saw a bunch of behind the scenes photos of Tony on the set of Michael Clayton, you know, wearing a cool parka and going like this. We should just photoshop him.

[Andy Greenwald]

But floating like an Eman character. To be clear, Orko was the floating magician who didn't have a body and was just like a Shirt.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was cool. Time for us to watch cartoons. My. My point isn't even that, like, I don't. The Masters of the Universe thing. Even if it's good, there's a cynicism baked in the root of it where, like, I don't think there's even. They're not converting a new generation to, like, follow the story of Eternia. There wasn't even really a story. From everything I understand about the movie, it's like apologizing for itself as the bit throughout, which is just such loser cul de sac culture shit.

[Chris Ryan]

Somewhere at Venice. Venice Beach. At the outdoor gym at Venice beach, some guy's like, there is a story.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, that's because, guys, I've always been an Adam, not a he man. Like, I think there's. There's two types of. There are two genders, you know, so I get it. But. But, yeah, like, I think we would both want the fresh, young voice in television, but television is a such a profoundly different beast, and it's a lot harder. I mean, television is a assembly line. Even at its most prestige or auteur driven, you still need to. Unless you're being asked to do something that is radically outside the norm of a series order, you have to conform in ways, and you have to have. You have to kind of know what you're doing or surround yourself with people who know what they're doing in a way that I think is less. I mean, that exists in movies, obviously, but I think it's less interventionist. Maybe in movies where a kid has a vision for something and then obviously he has line producers and professionals, like, making it a movie. But that's different than saying, we will write this and Execute it across 10 hours and deliver it in a traditional television delivery.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And I think, you know, we're gonna talk about some series today that I think have grappled with some of the requirements of being what they are, you know, and being told in the. In the format that they're being told. I do feel like, you know, maybe the closest comparison I have. It's not necessarily. They're nowhere near as big as these films have wound up being. But the moment that I'm thinking of for TV is probably that and my dates could be wrong, but that 17 through 20 era of Atlanta, fleabag, I may destroy you industry coming on this feeling that not only was there diversity of POVs, but there was, like, a generational shift and that people were speaking to, like, a cohort of the audience. That often doesn't feel kind of seen or addressed or, or vocalized, you know, And I think that that felt like also formally we were getting some different kinds of stuff then.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think you're right. I think I'm being too conservative in my vision in that way. Like there was a moment when it wasn't just that there was a moment when streamers needed to get attention, not just retain subscribers so they were willing to take bigger risks on things in the hopes of hitting a home run, but that creators like Phoebe Waller Bridge and Donald Glover and a host of others, Michaela Cole, I would put in there as well, essentially jumped the line in what has been often to its detriment, but sometimes parentheses the pit not to its detriment. Kind of stodgy and kind of wait your turn.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And there's like a 10 to 12 year process of starting at the bottom of a writer's room and then getting all the way up to executive producer.

[Andy Greenwald]

An example we use a lot is like the Mad Men pilot was the spec that Matthew Weiner wrote when he was working on the Ted Danson sitcom Becker in order to be hired by David Chase to spend however many years, 4, 5, 6 years at his knee, basically writing that show before he got a chance. And the reason he got a chance when he was older than those creators we just mentioned was because AMC was in a position that a few years later, Netflix and Amazon were in slightly where they were like, we'll do the thing everyone else won't. And we're kind of, kind of past that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. We talk about IP and we roll our eyes us a bit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Right now I'm going to play a little game with you about a piece of IP because apparently For All Mankind is ip. We talked a little bit on Monday show about Star City, which is the series on Apple that's already aired to tomorrow. It'll be the third episode where it's a sort of retelling of the period of For All Mankind from the POV of the Soviet space program. I don't know. I would assume that Apple is going to give this show more than one season just because it, that's, that's Apple's mo. But I don't know if they're going to time jump at the exact moments that For All Mankind has. So it might be interesting. There may be some, you know, if you were a For all mankind completist, you might be able to watch Star City and be like, oh, so that's what it looked like when this happened. That was off screen in between. Anyway, I wanted to play a fun game with you because we'll talk more about episode two and three on Monday, but take a well regarded or not show and then craft an alternative POV of the main narrative. So this is kind of what Star City is doing now. You are not restricted to following a letter of the law way of this prompt, but I thought, what else would you. Star City here?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I've got five options.

[Chris Ryan]

Jesus. You know, you walk. Can I just tell people he walked in with none? That's what, that's what I'm working with here. He is when the light goes on. He can compare backrooms to the Pit and he can come up with five other Star cities.

[Andy Greenwald]

In my offense, I started my day on London time today. So you are getting. These are peak hours right now?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it's transferred out. The transfer window is open in England.

[Andy Greenwald]

So could we transfer ourselves? Do you want to go back and forth?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, let's go back and forth.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

And you're doing so well today. I want you to go first.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. Which one should I start with? Well, I'll start with the most obviously Star Cities, which is if we take the premise where for all mankind is a respected and beloved show that has never set the world on fire. And you're going to tell the Russian side of events. Are we ready for a spin off of the Americans called the Russians and what you would think, would the Americans

[Chris Ryan]

actually be the American side of things? It wouldn't be Noah Emmerich's home life.

[Andy Greenwald]

The season of television would be the KGB trying to ferret out deep cover American agents in Moscow in the 80s.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

See what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I see.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can we.

[Chris Ryan]

The Russians. Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

How small can we make the aperture for something that we would like and

[Chris Ryan]

our Star City using those Lithuania sets all year round?

[Andy Greenwald]

Or we could do like the Pit and the Night Shift where they just keep rolling.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Use the same cast. Honestly.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. My first one, the smoking section.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, you've named these shows?

[Ad]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Damn. See, that's what I could have done yesterday.

[Chris Ryan]

The smoking section.

[Andy Greenwald]

All right.

[Chris Ryan]

The X Files as told from the POV of the cigarette smoking Man.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hell yeah. Now, I mean, it's basically a guy

[Chris Ryan]

who loves smoking and has to like fend off these pesky FBI agents from time to time as he tries to bring aliens.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it's, it's autobiographical. This is a deeply personal project.

[Chris Ryan]

Always fending them off.

[Andy Greenwald]

My only first cash.

[Chris Ryan]

Stop calling me man.

[Andy Greenwald]

Instant green light. Who are you casting as the younger cigarette smoking Man. Because the original actor, sadly, is no longer with us due to. Not due to the cigarettes.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he's one of those guys that looks like he was born 64 years old.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great.

[Chris Ryan]

It's hard to imagine him as Nicholas Gazeltine or whatever his name.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh. Because no one looks like that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So who.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who looks like.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not who looks like. It's like he's a guy who was probably pretty attractive.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

And then. And then smoked three packs a day until he looked like Mike Schmidt's fielding glove.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, so you want to cast someone almost too beautiful. Yeah. So maybe you do want Castletine. He's ready to go to TV after this.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's do that. Let's do Nick.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you like it?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. He's in he man.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I know. So you think that this is a soft landing spot for him?

[Chris Ryan]

It's exactly. Once he's done being swole for he man, he can come.

[Andy Greenwald]

He could smoke away the pounds. Okay. I like it.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, go. You're doing your next one.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. My next one is a show called Recreation and Parks. It is a comedy show set in Eagleton, Indiana, starring Parker Posey. And it is just that side of the story of the run of Parks and Recreation, which, for people who don't watch the show, there was a kind of like, echoing the Simpsons, there was a Springfield Shelbyville. Like, there is the evil other town. In the case of Parks and Rec, it was Eagleton, where everything was rich and fancy and perfect. And the Parks Department there was run by Parker Posey's character, who was Leslie's friend turned nemesis, and who doesn't want Parker. Sam Elliott was on the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah. He was in Ingleton. Was he?

[Andy Greenwald]

He was the. He was the hippie Ron. That's right. Wore sandals.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's a lot there. We could do it.

[Chris Ryan]

Sam Elliott would love to be sitting in more television shows at this point.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, yeah, I mean, who can blame him?

[Chris Ryan]

My next one is Veep, Vice President John Hoynes's POV on the Bartlett administrators. Nicholas Gazeltine. This is.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is so niche right now. We are going so small bore.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but what if we brought in some of the cast of Veep to work in his office?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, just have to have Hitmaker, you know, get. Get Tony Hale in.

[Andy Greenwald]

But they're earnest now, so the zag is. Veep was a show that prefaced that, like, foreshadowed the clown car of American politics in the decade to come. So when you watch Veep now, it feels really prescient. Whereas if you watch Parks and Rec now, you're like millennial cringe.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right, so.

[Chris Ryan]

And if you watch West Wing, you're like, is this the Expanse?

[Andy Greenwald]

Truly?

[Chris Ryan]

What do you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is this. Oh, this is for all mankind where there's an alternate. So this would be zagging back to.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, this would be a bad TV show because it would be a guy being like, damn, I'm frustrated. This other guy is really kicking ass.

[Andy Greenwald]

What do you mean it's a bad TV show that's Breaking Bad.

[Chris Ryan]

But you could have the campaign. You know what I mean?

[Andy Greenwald]

All TV shows are men frustrated that other men are doing better.

[Chris Ryan]

No, but those guys are probably good at one thing, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

On those shows. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like good at advertising. I'm good at math.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who played horns?

[Chris Ryan]

Tim Matheson.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, right. So what was he good at? Like what, What?

[Chris Ryan]

Fundraising, I think.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I think he was the Texas. Okay, but Texas politician.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's let me push you the way a good showrunner might. Like, how do we storify that? Like you want to add something that makes it more interesting or is he hosting parties in Texas and he.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, maybe I start to connect the C R I P. C U.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wait, say it again. C R I P. C U. Print it.

[Chris Ryan]

And we have John Hoynes working in. In. In conjunction with the Cigarette Smoking man to bring aliens. This will stop Bartlett.

[Andy Greenwald]

And what's amazing is we never saw. We like. Bartlett was seeing all kinds of crazy shit with like. Like cornfields and bees and oil.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And still he was just like, what heals America is. Our common thread of decency is granting clemency to a turkey every more often than you'd think.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You got another one.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's great.

[Chris Ryan]

I got one more.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I mean, this is sort of obvious, but Industry nyc.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I have an industry one as well.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Which would be the events of industry of the past few seasons, but told through the Pierpoint New York office.

[Chris Ryan]

The Adler. The Adlerverse.

[Andy Greenwald]

The. The expanded Adlerverse. Where. And here's what. This is the part that's gonna be slightly different. And I want you to stay with me because it's kind of breaks canon a little bit. But the sexy young people who work on Wall street go out and do drugs all night and fuck each other in sexually curious ways.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I was gonna say.

[Andy Greenwald]

So that's kind of like, what if

[Chris Ryan]

all they did was go get Matchas and work out and walk their dogs?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. They just like, they live in Williamsburg and they just go to the Equinox. That's next to the Chase bank now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Storify that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think we lived it.

[Chris Ryan]

My industry spinoff is called Valley Boy, and it's the previous season of Industry told from the perspective of Rob living in California.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's a good show, actually.

[Chris Ryan]

And he could just.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's not even the perspective of the season. It's just put that character in, and all of a sudden, the audacity is interesting. Yeah, right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm sorry. That was a stray. We haven't watched it, but I think our lack of interest is.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I haven't. I haven't checked it out, so I don't know, but those are my three. Did you have one more you wanted to do?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, I have two more. What? One is called Thoroughbreds.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you just name it in this moment?

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. Thoroughbreds.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't know we had to come up with cool names, you guys. And what are thoroughbreds? Chris, how do you define a thoroughbred? What is a thoroughbred?

[Chris Ryan]

A resource.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not just a. Not just a racehorse. What? Using a different adjective. What makes them racehorses?

[Chris Ryan]

They run fast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Fast horses, baby.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is a show.

[Chris Ryan]

Slow. Fast.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is a show set in the modern England. English Secret Service with the people who are good at their jobs.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, so the Scott Thomas. Who's the blonde lady who's.

[Andy Greenwald]

She's the head of the dogs.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but it's not even about the dogs, because the good agent.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, it's the Kristen Scott Thomas side of things. Like when she's not dealing with Gary Oldman.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Like, it's just the agency in London with Kristen Scott Thomas. And they don't fuck up and, like, pass gas all the time. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And actually have, like, big things to do. Not just like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, what's wrong with that?

[Chris Ryan]

Like, some spy died on a bus.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, you know, what the pit taught us. It's like, show about doctors doing doctor stuff. Good.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Spy show. Also. The last one is. You know, I think what was interesting about Star City was that it took. It began in the same place, essentially, that. For All Mankind. Yeah, for all mankind. Begins with the Soviets landing on the moon and spins off an alternate history. Star City begins however many years later. I think it's six or seven years since For All Mankind premiered despite however many seasons they put out. Went back to that initial alternate history hinge point and went off. So I'm going back to the pilot episode of a beloved series all the way back to 2007, when a little show Called Mad Men began with a young woman coming to Don Draper and saying, we would like to hire your firm to do the advertising for our department store. And Roger Sterling said, why don't they get a Jewish firm reader? I listened.

[Chris Ryan]

Jewish. Mad Men.

[Andy Greenwald]

Mad mitzvah, baby. It's just the ad game with guys who Krumholtz. It's. It's 100% Krumholtz. I should see. I didn't do all the homework here, but I'm sure we could probably find a couple Jews in Hollywood who are ready to act on a television show. Krumholtz is obviously the heavy.

[Chris Ryan]

He's. He's the draper.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if he's. No, he's not the draper. You need. You need more of, like, if we're looking for young, half Jewish stars, at least, like, you need, like, a chalamet energy to be the young person. But Krummelz is like, Krummel is definitely the Sterling. Sterling. It's his family firm. And, you know, basically everything is the same, except you can't mix meat and dairy. That's it.

[Chris Ryan]

Can't mix it.

[Andy Greenwald]

No. Keep kosher. You can't.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you keep kosher? You don't do that, right? Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

How long have we known each other?

[Chris Ryan]

You love having a steak with a glass of milk.

[Andy Greenwald]

I had one right before this podcast. You could tell by my energy.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, so that's like, we'll get back into Star City on Monday. You love a game.

[Andy Greenwald]

I do love a game.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know that we didn't really award each other points, so who knows who won? But if you guys have your own ideas for Star City shows, hit us up.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, if you have any ideas over who won, make that very clear in the emails. I won't see them.

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[Chris Ryan]

Would you like to do maximum pleasure guaranteed first or would you like to do Widow's Bay first?

[Andy Greenwald]

You, you, you call it, man. We're staying on the Apple platform.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what? Here's the problem with Widow's Bay, which

[Andy Greenwald]

is this will be the first problem

[Chris Ryan]

it is is now getting is Widow's Bay too good? You know, like I almost Is that your concern? Well, you know, I, I hate being like, you texted me this because people aren't privy to this, but you were like, so it's just showing off now. And this episode, your Baggage, which aired on I think Tuesday night air this week, written by Emma Ketchum and Directed by Andrew DeYoung. Andrew DeYoung did the mushroom Trip episode from a couple of weeks ago.

[Andy Greenwald]

He directed the Tim Robinson movie Friendship and they're big chair company vibes in

[Chris Ryan]

this episode basically is about every character confronting their past. Patricia with the boogeyman, Evan and Tom trying to come to grips with what happened to Evan's mother and Tom's wife and Wick kind of going over a childhood trauma that split him up from Jerry, who works in the Historical Society and now has a nice enough but annoying husband. And you know, this was obviously a bit broadcast when the previous episode ended with we got him. It's all good. And there's a great moment at the beginning of this episode that was kind of reminded me of Pulp Fiction when they're in the diner and they're kind

[Andy Greenwald]

of like they're wearing the clothes that they.

[Chris Ryan]

The Banana Slugs T shirts and they're like, you know, just kind of at peace before there's an armed robbery. But I. I almost am like getting to the point with this where I'm like, I don't really have any notes, man. You guys are able to every week do an homage pian to a great American either sub genre or explicitly a film. The monster of the week thing continues to work seamlessly. The running time of the episodes makes none of them mature. There is legitimate like, this would be among the best slashers I have seen in years if they just made this into a movie. But also is the funniest thing I have seen in a long time is watching Kate o' Flynn run from an incredibly slow but persistent slasher who is the incarnation of Jason Voorhees and Michael Myers.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

What did you think of this episode?

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to. I feel like I loved everything about it. I am not historically a fanboy of any kind, but I believe I wrote Hell yeah Patricia in my notes. Like I was on Twitter in 2014 when she had the shotgun because it felt so good. And then her holding the shotgun on the hopefully dead, not undead body of the boogeyman throughout his cremation process was incredible. So I am just loving it and I am a fan, full stop. But I always want to engage with the show also in the myriad ways in which it just fucking impresses me. And a moment ago I was half kidding, but I was talking about showrunners saying, how do we make it story? Because you can have all the good ideas in the world and you can have all the speculation and thematic dream making, but how do you do it? Communicate it practically? Because that's actually what the job is. And so two examples of this episode are just remarkable to me and what Katie Dippold, who's the creator and showrunner, is able to accomplish by making these decisions that seem obvious or seem simple once they're done. Well, but actually many, many shows, good shows, struggle to find them week to week. It dazzles me. So one number one would be where are we in the real time story? And how can we take advantage of that moment? So you could look at the fact that they've dispatched the ancient evil supposedly at the end of the last episode, and think of it maybe in a way where you're like greedy to get onto the next Thing you're worried about a lull you want to show the audience, but no one's seen the show yet. So this is entirely in your own head. And the fact that. That she and her writers were like, no, let's let them sit in a moment of happiness and peace. And what does that look like? And more importantly, not just what does it look like in terms of the comedy. What does it look like in terms of storytelling opportunity? What can we explore? Second point was the past your baggage. I think I saw an interview that Katie did this week or one of the writers, I believe was Katie saying that.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this the scriptnotes one that she did?

[Andy Greenwald]

It could have been. I didn't listen to the whole thing. I just saw the. I just saw this as a takeaway. But that init. The big shift in the episode that made it click for them was that they were going to tell Patricia's story with a boogeyman in flashback. And then they realized not to do that. And that unlocked everything in the episode because it connected it to the forward momentum. It's a smart choice after back to back episodes, one of which was a giant flashback and one of which was about an ancient evil. But. But then the execution to make Patricia in real time complaining about her takeout order and then running screaming out of her house from a masked killer with a knife make that feel both like tonally and emotionally and narratively consistent with Tom and Matthew Reese's really affecting performance. Him weeping over the fate of his deceased wife.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

How do you do that? In a way that. But they do. It does not feel like whiplash to go between those storylines.

[Chris Ryan]

There was two really lovely, surprising in the hands of another show would not have maybe gone this way moments that I wanted to throw at you. And I think it ties to what you're saying here. The Matthew Reese, the Tom and Evan conversation is something that you could draw out for episodes. And for all I know, because of the thunderstorm and the terror of the island, like Matthew Reese is going to go or Tom's going to go back on his promise to take Evan to Boston. I assume he will.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm glad it didn't happen in this episode.

[Chris Ryan]

But Evan basically being like, I get it. Like when, when, when, when his dad explains to him what happened and show and he's got these letters and he's like, you shouldn't have hid this from me. And you know, Tom is like, it's. It would make me sadder than I already am for you to know what happened to your mother.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

And Evan kind of forgives him. And also they have like a hug. Like, like there is like a genuine moment there. And most other shows would be like, now these two are, are angry at each other. So Evan is going to put himself in danger so that Tom has to save him so that they can realize the true spirit of Christmas. So that's one thing the show has

[Andy Greenwald]

the confidence and fearlessness of something. Like they're not afraid to resolve stories.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because there's a belief that they carry rightfully so that there is more story to mine.

[Chris Ryan]

There's also like the kooky Patricia stuff when she shows up at the book club and Chrissy, is that who it is? I think who or Chris gives her like the riot act and is like, you're just insane and that's why nobody's your friend and like you're just so fucking weird and bye bye. And then Patricia tases her and she's like, I'm sorry, she's the worst. She's just the fucking worst there. It's just great that you give a character like Patricia like full bodied POV to be like, I know I'm weird, but like she is a bitch.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, she sucks.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The sometimes. The other lesson I think from successful rooms is sometimes all of the work that you do is in pursuit of the simplest solution.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you can find in the same way you can Top Chef judge can taste when dough has been overworked. You can tell when a show has been big brained too much. And I'm glad you mentioned the Tom scene. I circled that like the line about the pictures, they make me sadder than I already am. Is a thunderclap like that is such simple writing. But it is everything. It's all you need to know as an audience. It's all Evan needs to hear. And I also think like we are under. When we've been praising. I know we've praised him last week, we've been praising all the great character performers. But Kingston Rumi Southwick, who plays Evan, has such an interesting affect as a performer where he's very soft spoken and he underplays things in a way that is so refreshing for young actors. A, but B, it allows him to both express the anger and the resentment and the surprise and joy. That was more childlike. But then more than anything else, it allows us, I think to understand the forgiveness coming off of that line and all that. That story, that resolution for now was started seven weeks ago.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, and also when you think about how this show started this is another example of what we're talking about in terms of knowing how to pace character development rather than story.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

A lot of other shows would have Tom and Wick at odds for, like, four episodes, five episodes, six episodes of, like, Tom good, friction, buttoned up, new money, trying to, like, modernize the island. Wick is this myth, myth believing old wacko who thinks that the fog carries a demonic spirit. And he is going to do everything he can. He's going to keep setting off, like, the storm sirens and, you know, like, that could have been the tension of these episodes for three hours, four hours. And then you could be like, now Tom believes. And now the second half of the season is going. And instead, Tom's pretty much in, like. He's like, I don't really love the way we're going about doing this, but I believe by the end of the second episode, you know it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Good character writing is. Yes. Ending.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

So to your point about Patricia, she is crazy, but also, Chris is the worst. Yeah, Wick is right. But also he's a weird, sad, lonely guy. Tom is kind of a prick, but also deeply, deeply hurt and sensitive. And, you know, all of these things can be true. And if you embrace that, again, all this comes from a level of confidence, and I hope we can talk to Katie about it. I'm sure I've never met a showrunner who says, I was quite confident about this. No one ever will. But it strikes me that more than anything else, that this show is the product of enormous creative confidence. And on the part of Katie, but also on Hiro murai and Andrew DeYoung and every other director performer we've. We've called out, like, whatever the secret sauce is, they all understood the assignment.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you understand the macro. What is happening here? Because you were able to kind of be like, oh, yes, you know, the. There could be another. And the lineage of the Warren family might actually extend to Evan or Patricia or whoever it is that we might be. I am so dazzled on an episode to episode basis with not only the monster of the week, but the homage of the week and how they are doing a Jaws episode or doing a haunted house episode or doing a Halloween episode or doing a Wicker man episode that I am actually a little bit behind on my. So what is going on here? Like, Richard Warren made a deal with Satan, but maybe not to protect this island. And now his lineage is cursed. But.

[Andy Greenwald]

And so the curse will continue as long as the lineage lives on the island.

[Chris Ryan]

And they thought they ended the lineage with Richard Warren. But now it would seem that did not happen.

[Andy Greenwald]

No. So my assumption is, is that Evan is the lineage. And this creates an issue of Tom wants to take him off the island, which will kill him, but Wick and others may want to kill him, and that would be challenging.

[Chris Ryan]

So Evan being the part of the lineage would indicate that Tom is not. It's that his mom was.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

And then a matriarchal line, if you will.

[Chris Ryan]

And just in terms of the way that these different spirits get activated. Like, so for the Boogeyman, that's just like, hey, if you. Every day that goes by, something is gonna happen.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Until you guys end this.

[Andy Greenwald]

The less I know about the TikTok of that, not the website, the, like, clock, the happier I am. I don't want an answer as to why the Boogeyman was activated the day after Richard Warren. I don't even. Even as we reach the point in the series, which is probably the same time it would happen in a movie where the metaphor goes away, you know, like, I think there's. It's. It's a. It's a trope of this sort of storytelling where it's like the Boogeyman does represent, you know, adolescence or insecurity or whatever, and no one believes in it, but until it starts slashing everybody and then it just becomes an action movie. We are at that point, but I don't really want to know. And I'll be very curious to see how the show handles a resolution in the short while still being invested in this being a Boogeyman of the week next week.

[Chris Ryan]

Fair enough.

[Andy Greenwald]

I want to ask you, before we move on, what made this, in your mind, an excellent evocation of the silent, slow, masked knife killer?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's the setting. There's something very Haddonfield about the streets of Widow's bay. The way DeYoung kind of shot that scene where it's got evocations of, I think, definitely the first Halloween and maybe even the second where there's. There's a lot of, like, screaming and crying and banging on doors and people turning their lights out and people, like, ignoring the. The hysteria happening outside their house.

[Andy Greenwald]

Kitty Genovese.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And a little bit of that life. And I thought that the. Just when you think he's dead, he's not. He pops back up stuff. The. You know, the. The scene with the ambulance drivers was amazing, where it's like, hey, welcome back, pal. He's like, slashes at his throat. So there was just a real The. The. The thing that you. That would be the. The biggest hallmark is the slow, methodical pace of the slasher that seems to always keep up with the running, screaming victim. And then Patricia turning into the final girl in the. In the. In the last few minutes and hilariously holding a shotgun on him in the ambulance. And then in the.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's amazing.

[Chris Ryan]

Not sure exactly how that cleared all. All barriers of, like, investigation to the point of cremation that night, but I'm okay with it. I'm all for an expedited municipal.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, Bashir was on painkillers.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, the little character moments of him in the convenience store being like, I have to eat this here, and my wife doesn't want me to. Like, there's just a humanity that exists in every frame of the show that's not just serving the. How can we frame this correctly? But because I'm a relative novice, which is to say I'm too scared to watch those movies. I didn't know that it would be possible for no one to be inside of the mask.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah, It's. It can be a spirit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you know what I mean? Like, because there's the scene. The Wick scene is interrupted. Or it ends with him seeing that someone has broken in and stolen the. Stolen the murderer's mask, which is a cool thing to have on display. So I. My mind was wondering. I thought maybe someone had been. Either had always been the boogeyman and re. Re. Energized or someone had been, like, captured by the spirit. So I didn't know if the mask was gonna come off. And she'd shot Dale.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, or someone from the office.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I'm glad it wasn't Jeff Hiller or something.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, that's Dale. That's what I meant. That's what I thought was gonna be in there.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I got confused with Dale Dickey. That's why.

[Andy Greenwald]

Dale Dickey. Who play. I did the same thing. Who plays Rosemary.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Did you have any comments on Shel Bashir's late breaking pregnant wife who is

[Andy Greenwald]

about to give birth and hopefully not on the island.

[Chris Ryan]

And Patricia's like, we got to get you off the island. It's just.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just.

[Chris Ryan]

But there's a thunderstorm coming.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just good plotting.

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[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk a little bit about maximum pleasure guaranteed, which blink and you miss it is now up to episode four.

[Andy Greenwald]

And we missed it.

[Chris Ryan]

We were behind yes on Apple tv. This is a new series from David J. Rosen. David J. Rosen, who's worked on Hunters, has worked on Citadel, has worked on Sugar.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who wrote the novel I Just Want My Pants Back? I don't know that 20 years ago.

[Chris Ryan]

What is that?

[Andy Greenwald]

It was like a young adult novel about living in New York and hooking up with chicks. And then it was turned into briefly into an MTV series executive produced by Doug Liman. One season.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, cool. Does he get his pants back?

[Andy Greenwald]

I can't tell you that. You might watch it.

[Chris Ryan]

This one stars Tatiana Maslany as Paula, a magazine fact checker going through a rough divorce and custody battle who blows off steam one night having cam sex with a guy named Trevor.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not one night. Seems like it's ongoing.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that's. I'm saying one night.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, you're setting up the happens.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. You're accurate. I was like, don't put some respect on that relationship.

[Chris Ryan]

And during this experience that they're having together through their screens, he gets attacked on screen. And Paula sees this. But it becomes apparent that this attack was part of a scam. And then it becomes apparent that this scam has gone haywire and Trevor has been killed. Paula investigates and pulls at a thread that undoes her life. So you watched two of them?

[Andy Greenwald]

I watched two.

[Chris Ryan]

I watched. Let's. I'll say three. I am. I started the fourth one. What did you think?

[Andy Greenwald]

I really, really enjoyed what I watched, especially the pilot. David Gordon Green directed it. And I really appreciated. I really appreciated something that I think is hard to pull off in this contemporary moment of tv, which is that it was highly stylized. It is screen dependent. I would say that this may be the most successful product integration show that Apple has had in a number of years. And I don't mean that as like a backhanded compliment. The show correctly uses the most annoying Apple ringtone to be annoying. The show does depend on FaceTiming on MacBooks and having your phone available at all times in ways that feel relevant. But I think it's a hard needle to thread to have something that is frenetic and highly stylized and about the collision of crime into a normal existence, but also feel like someone's touching grass in terms of trying to remember at all times who this character is and who she wants to be and what her relationship is with her ex husband, played by friend of the pod Jake Johnson, with her TikTok trend dancing daughter Hazel, and her co workers and her life. So I really appreciated the entry point for the story, the style in which it was done, but mostly the fact that I was. I felt like it was focused on the right half of that equation throughout the first episode. I'll also say that another very contemporary thing that I see with a lot of these shows is we collectively are getting better and better at premise and asking cool questions. And then when pilots become series, that's when the real work starts. And so in watching episode two, I was like, okay, now I see the shape of the storytelling taking place. And that was a bumpier transition, but it's harder work, you know, to go from one to the other.

[Chris Ryan]

I think I see what you're saying. You know, the rest of the episodes almost feel closer to like, whatever the Apple version of the Safdie brothers is, you know, like where I think it's more or less like 80 to 20. Unrelenting tension, anxiety. How the hell is she gonna get out of this situation? You've got an interesting. So visually and tonally, I feel like it really ramps up in the second, third, fourth episode. They also, weirdly, not weirdly, but they are trying to have kind of a couple of different treatments of the mystery story. For one thing, Murray Bartlett plays quite obviously, I think, the killer, I would assume. I mean, we don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, we don't know. We don't know more. But he is introduced one way and then pretty quickly established as the other. Yes, Murray Bartlett from Looking and White Lotus fame. Great answer.

[Chris Ryan]

Great. In this, it's. It's, well, how they split the mystery, quote unquote, or the investigation to the extent that there is one. So Paula is trying to get to the bottom of what's just happened with Trevor. But Murray Bartlett's Frank character is trying to investigate Paula, you know, and so you've got these sort of two convergent mysteries. There's two things that I think are not rubbing me the wrong way, but I'll be interested if we continue with this show to kind of check in on. One is there's a little, like, Apple expansion pack happening as the episodes go on, where we keep bringing in supporting characters.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And now it's like, we're up at like 8, you know. Now I would say that the show seems pretty cutthroat so far in terms of endangering people and having stakes, and it's pretty cool. So there's that, and then there's also just. They're playing around with flashbacks. And you were talking about the Widow's Bay thing with the idea of showing Patricia's boogeyman experience as a flashback and instead doing it in the present.

[Andy Greenwald]

Always.

[Chris Ryan]

If you can do that, they're doing a lot of, like, cliffhanger and then flashback to explain the cliffhanger. Not a lot, but they've done it a couple of times on maximum pleasure. And I don't know if I love it because it turns into a little bit of, like, we're built. We're wrapping the story around the concept of a cliffhanger rather than we're wrapping the story over how a cop would find out about information or how somebody would be like, I'm in a tough situation. I need to be transparent about this, but obscure that. And instead it seems like I'm on a TV show. So wouldn't it be cool if at the end of an episode, you found out this isn't my first dead body that I've encountered? Or wouldn't it be cool if we found out, like, you think that this woman is like this, but she's actually like that? Because we went back, you know, it's just. It is. It is a way of telling a story, but it isn't quite worked for me on this one.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's funny or it's annoying, depending on your perspective, to be TV brained enough as we are, and maybe many of our listeners are, to see things come in and out of fashion narratively, I think, and how long it takes for the messages to be sent. Like the tipping point of exciting scene six weeks earlier. The amount of time it took for creators to realize, A, everyone else was doing it, and B, audiences were rebelling against it. There's a long tail because then it takes years of producing things to move on from that. Similarly, like something like dtf, which we engage with briefly, but like enough to say there is a similar. There's some similar things at play here in terms of a surprising, maybe not a murder in the way you think. Told through flashback with quirky cops. In that case, it was Richard Jenkins. In this case, it's Dali de Leon, who was in Triangle of Sadness. There is a. We are in the midst of a golden era of cam content and only fan stuff. Sure, both. I meant we are Margot.

[Chris Ryan]

Pleasure and euphoria. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But also what we've been up to.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, only for the two of us, though. Just straight. Straight.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hey, man. Yeah, we don't exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

The Watch After Dark is actually just Andy and I camming.

[Andy Greenwald]

What's fun is that, like, there was a period of time when Sam Esmail wouldn't text. He would only communicate over signal because he was worried about being hacked. And so that's why we have stopped texting and calling. We only communicate over cam soda.

[Ad]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just the two of us.

[Chris Ryan]

Remember chat roulette.

[Andy Greenwald]

Remember? I'm still holding on to that anyway. Yeah. And so I would say that I appreciated the use of screens as mitigating factors and intimacy and the chat stuff on the show because it is a. Well, because a. The relationship that Paula has with her camboy is gentle. And there's other layers to it to be unwrapped, but it is, like, emotional and interesting and surprising. And then there was a great scene where she's talking to her colleagues at work, and it's one of those, like, hinge moments of, like, what do we gain by spilling it and what do we gain by withholding? And she's like, I was being scammed by a camera that I had become inappropriately connected to. And they're like, oh, that's the most interesting thing you've ever said. And they hug her. You know, one of those. That the boy is the Julia Louis Dreyfus son.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't know that.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I'm on Nepo watch. He's good. Now he's watching.

[Chris Ryan]

Is he in the campion? Kind of like, I'll allow it, or.

[Andy Greenwald]

He seems like he was raised right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. So I'll. Thank you for asking. I'll allow it. But we are monitoring the situation.

[Chris Ryan]

I saw then the Times did a piece about. Or maybe it was Wall Street Journal did a piece about Leon Black's son, who's in charge of, like, a shadowy but very important, like, United States government investment fund. And I was like, how do you get that job?

[Andy Greenwald]

Just, you know, he worked harder than everyone else. Yeah, yeah. I, the. I'll swing back to the positive. But the other thing that I was. The only other thing that I was slightly bumping on. And this is not, this is actually not criticism. This is a reflection of getting a show made for Apple tv, which is. I struggled with Tetiana Maslany being a woman who is struggling with all aspects of her life, including her appearance. She is a lovely, charismatic person who reads as young. She's certainly plausible as a 40 year old woman who. With a child. Like, I'm not arguing her acting chops or whether I could buy it, but in a different world. This is the Melanie Lynskey show. And I'm like, it clicks into place a little bit more. But that's not Apple's business model.

[Chris Ryan]

I have not. You know, she obviously broke onto the scene with Orphan Black.

[Andy Greenwald]

You haven't really seen her very much. Huh? Tat Should I have? I'm just saying, like there are actors who are big, but if they are big on shows. Like I don't think I watched Orphan

[Chris Ryan]

Black for a season or two.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't know. I thought maybe you were Orphan Black and she Hulk ignorant. I am.

[Chris Ryan]

She Hulk ignorant. I find that she has like the appropriate kinetic energy for something that's this a million percent.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, you need the rhythm of the show.

[Chris Ryan]

She's on athletic and there, there's things that demand her climbing through skylights and jumping off. I mean the, the first episode or is it the second episode where she gets the second tin can in her arm is crazy cool. It's. It's like, it's a cool show. You know, as with everything, there's like, do I urgently feel the need to keep up with this or like is this something. I don't, I don't really know what the, the alchemy is anymore of like what eclipses. That was fine. Watching it for three or four episodes versus like this is now what I'm watching for 10 weeks.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think this is, this one for me stands out a little bit because of there's surprise. Like, I think Jake is playing slightly against type.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I think he's doing a great job. I think that one of the hard things to navigate in, you know, the last 30 years of television, which are essentially shows about people with families being drawn to the dark side, is how do you balance the family stuff. I think the stuff with Hazel is the daughter's name in this. I think that's being. I think it's pitched at the right place for me to believe that. So far, anyway, through the episodes I've seen, it hasn't tipped fully into genre. It is still attempting to be someone. The most fantastical elements of the show so far aren't the crime and violence. The most fantastical elements of the show so far are that, A, she drives around New York all day and B, she's still employed as a fact checker at a massive.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think they shot this in New York?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I think so. Not New York. Why not? Your New York included magazines. So.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, no, I don't mean that. It's just like the traffic situation seems pretty, pretty relaxed. And is this set in Ridgewood?

[Andy Greenwald]

It's Queensy.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Keep an eye on that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Aren't you happy to see, like, that magazines are still employing a vibrant fact checking department before Barry Weiss takes over as editor in chief?

[Chris Ryan]

I am.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought that was cool.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I hate to do this.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a fun show.

[Chris Ryan]

The only thing I was thinking while I was watching it, because I, I think there are several shows, I just can't think of one off the top of my head that take this kind of like unbelievably tense premise and they're just like, and now let's tell it over the course of 10 episodes. But I was watching this and, you know, as I think about how Widows is employing Monster of the Week or how the Pit is doing a medical procedural but with durational storytelling over the course of a day so you can have some new school ideas about making tv, I almost feel like I'd be more curious about the version of this show that is Paula solving this whole thing in an episode and then the rest of the season is Paula Private Detective helping people who've been scammed.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow, look at you. Look at you.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder if that's a more durable,

[Andy Greenwald]

repeatable, like, idea or is that something that David J. Rosen has considered if he gets perhaps.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think because of Widows, I have been looking at different TV shows and being like, was this written for tv? And was this written to be something that's exciting to watch every week other than how is the story going to end?

[Andy Greenwald]

100%. I mean, it is. Katie Dippold of Widows Bay worked in Parks and Rec. And I think it is one of the enduring legacies of Mike Schur's television shows is that he found a sweet spot. It's different in the 30 minute realm or now the 35 minute realm, a sweet spot of you can tune in week to week, but there is a larger spine of a serialized story, and I'm not afraid of pushing towards it. But you're not gonna be. You're never gonna see an episode that's just connective tissue. Whereas, at least on one episode, Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed is more of the New School approach of we are going to light a match in the first episode and it will burn through.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, and dynamite happens in episode 10.

[Andy Greenwald]

But within that framing the show that it made me think of speaking of another person who could have starred in it is Run, which was the one season Phoebe Waller Bridge show with Donald Gleason and Merritt Weaver. And that show started with similarly, like, an enormously grabby and exciting premise. But I didn't feel like. And I feel like the marketplace agreed with me. It didn't have the conviction or the gas or the horses to make it a season to. To earn that. That beginning. This Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed seems more successful to me for that type of show.

[Chris Ryan]

Fair enough. Let's hit TC real quick. Top Chef. Before we get out of here, I just want to tell you a personal anecdote. Since it's Culinary Corner, it's Culinary Corner before it's Top Chef.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

So I've been kind of seduced by these Instagram and YouTubes of, like, clean out your pantry pastas or clean out your pantry. Like, hey, do you have capers? And this?

[Andy Greenwald]

Look what you can do.

[Chris Ryan]

So I was like, I have some, like, fly by Jing instant noodles. What's in my pantry slash fridge that I can, like, get going into and create, like, add some rotisserie chicken and

[Andy Greenwald]

emulsify with pasta water.

[Chris Ryan]

Why?

[Andy Greenwald]

We'll get to that.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. I mean, I know that that's supposed to happen. Do you do that with, like, ramen too?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't make ramen. I don't make ramen at home. I only go to, like, a true, like, Kodawari shop where, like, each ingredient is made. But this isn't about me.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm fucking out.

[Andy Greenwald]

This isn't about me.

[Chris Ryan]

I quit. I don't want to do this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sorry.

[Chris Ryan]

So I was like, okay, I'm going through it. And I was like, okay, I got the rotisserie chicken looking for, like, kind of a. An acid, maybe, like a pickle kind of thing. But I was like, I could use some green in here. And I came across some frozen peas in our freezer.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

My wife, historically, this is. I'm not violating HIPAA by saying she has a bum Knee. And often needs to ice her knee. And these peas are her knee. Knee peas. On Reddit, these are. So I go on Reddit, the expiration date for these peas is November of 2025.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, it's not. It's not as bad as I thought.

[Chris Ryan]

And I should note that they have been thawed out upwards of 25 times.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, here we go. So that's kind of like what is. Like what is your age versus your real age.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And so on Reddit, of course, you can be like, these peas are past their expiration date. Should I eat them? Can I eat them? And everybody's like, yes, that's just a suggestion. And if they've been frozen and I get, like, pretty deep into the process,

[Andy Greenwald]

you have your Misen plus and your prep and your.

[Chris Ryan]

And. And, you know, I've kind of, like, scraped the freezer burn off the peas and individually. No, but, like, I kind of, like, washed them a little bit to dawn out a little bit. And I go back to the Reddit thread, and I was like, it seemed like that went on for a while. Let me see what they're talking about. And apparently there's a whole thing about Boo Boo peas. Peas that people keep just for.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, this is a thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And they're like, don't eat the Boo Boo peas, because that's where listeria can get in when you're thawing out and freezing and thawing out and freezing. So just as a public service announcement, I stopped this. I meant this was an incredibly boring dinner because I did not have a group green, and I didn't really have a pickle or an acid for it. It was just basically chicken with chicken with noodles. Sweet and spicy ramen noodles.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not mad at this, but I

[Chris Ryan]

would say that it was dull. And I almost got Listeria. And my wife was pretty pissed off that I used her Boo Boo.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. How's her knee? That's fine.

[Chris Ryan]

But she was like, you gotta get next time.

[Andy Greenwald]

She finished this dinner you cooked for her and tried to stand up.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, no, she didn't.

[Andy Greenwald]

It hurts.

[Chris Ryan]

She was out. I was. This was a silver. Like,

[Andy Greenwald]

if you ever need frozen peas, you know, they. They cycle through real. You know, like on the other videos we watch on Instagram where people are seeing how the Guinness is drinking this evening when they're just like, people have been hitting it, so it's like, it's fresh on the tap and the lines are clean.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You want to let 12 guys go

[Andy Greenwald]

first when that, like, giant dude prime mutton is like, the lads have been drinking it into form. And I'm like, what is the form? Is it physically your form?

[Chris Ryan]

Form.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because that is what I'm most worried about, despite my love of a fine stout.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Andy Greenwald]

Anyway. That the last. The frozen peas in my house are constantly eaten into form because. And I will, you're going to say this came from me with my Kodowari ramen, but it did not. My children, who have relatively conservative palates, I would say, I. E. They're just kids, normal kids about this. One of their favorite snacks is frozen peas. Not heated. They like bowls of frozen peas to just pop in.

[Chris Ryan]

How's that? Texture wise, is that good?

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, have you ever had a frozen grape?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's not my favorite.

[Andy Greenwald]

No. So I don't share this passion with them, but I'm just letting you know that the peas are eating into form constantly. So if you need a bag for any purposes, or if Phoebe needs one,

[Chris Ryan]

will they hit some frozen peas, roll it back up and throw it back in the freezer?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, no.

[Chris Ryan]

Kill a whole bag on a sitting.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, this. This presupposes that they are helping themselves and doing anything independently despite their advanced age.

[Chris Ryan]

I have noticed.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You've got some notes for your kids recently.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

About. About their contributions to the. To the house.

[Andy Greenwald]

And let me tell you, they are receptive to those notes. There is nothing they like more than when old Pop says, maybe you could have picked that up.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think when they go out into the world in a couple of years, like, the light switch is gonna flip and they're gonna be like, I know how to do this.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is what we all hope.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is what we all pray for. I don't. I try to think that, like. Because when you're like. One thing that young parents come up against a lot is, like, their kids come home from school and they act insane. And then there's a worry that they are acting this way in school. And then good teachers or lying teachers will say they behave all day. And then being home is like. Then the shackles come off.

[Chris Ryan]

Shit's Marty Groff.

[Andy Greenwald]

They get it all out. You know, it's Rumspringa every day at 4pm so my hope is that they would not, let's say, leave chip witch wrappers decorating the windowsill in the homes of their friends or people they respect. I don't know. But all the way back to your point about the frozen peas. No, no. I take the bag out frozen, I pour some frozen Into a bowl.

[Chris Ryan]

Back in there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Seal it up.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Put it back in.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, good to know. Top Chef, the penultimate episode of season 23, which Andy and I have had a fair amount of notes for. Yeah, I don't have a ton of, like, nitpicks about this one. It was my favorite episode of the season, I think.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Fair.

[Chris Ryan]

I realized that it's sort of like the Matrix where you're like. You're using your eyes for the first time. I felt like the judges were basically like food. Like, they were so delighted. They liked everything that they were like, finally, real cooking. Yes. We got down to Sherry, Lawrence, Rhoda, Jonathan.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep. And your final four.

[Chris Ryan]

They were asked to do basically, a plating exercise where they could choose these sort of exotic or funky delivery systems for their.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is after the stupid 20 questions thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, I enjoyed it because it just seemed funny that they would be like, spinach. And he's like, no. And they were like, I'll put some spinach.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, I'm paying very close attention.

[Chris Ryan]

And it was very funny that they all got mad at Jonathan for asking questions that they thought were stupid.

[Andy Greenwald]

Those questions were dumb as hell.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I don't really even know what. Like, it didn't seem like a big deal that he asked if it was side dish. But, like, I am often the person who asks a question where somebody's like, why are you fucking asking that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Who does that in interviews?

[Chris Ryan]

No, not in interviews.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, Jesse Armstrong once. No, I'm just kidding. You've never. You've never done that.

[Chris Ryan]

It just seemed like, based on the judges reactions to the food, that this was at a high, high, high level. And they pushed each other. Even Jonathan, who, as soon as he was like, I am making bread and butter, I was like, thanks for playing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, I want to put a pumpkin on a candlestick.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, the only tension for the episode was really like, is Lawrence gonna accidentally fuck up his rice wrappings? His sort of.

[Andy Greenwald]

The rice rolls.

[Chris Ryan]

The rice rolls is the. Because he's making Carolina. And it didn't steam. And.

[Andy Greenwald]

But that wasn't the issue was that he. The episode implied or at least tried to create drama from the implication that there was some fuckery with the oven. Not intentionally.

[Chris Ryan]

Jonathan used it first, and it lingered on.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jonathan being like, I set it up for you, bro.

[Chris Ryan]

And he's like, it's all good. It's gonna take a few. Few minutes to cool down to the steaming setting, and then you're good. And then Lawrence walked back over, like, five minutes later. And was like, this. This thing is not.

[Andy Greenwald]

And so then he had to kind of like rather brilliantly, like ad hoc, multiple crates steaming in pots.

[Chris Ryan]

And it just made it a little bit thicker, I guess.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, that was the drama.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought that each one of those winning dishes or the dishes that passed through to the final three were amazing looking rotas, especially on the tree bark. I don't know that I would want to eat off of tree bark, but it would looked really cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

Someone has been to noma.

[Chris Ryan]

Not. Certainly not.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what I mean? What an ally.

[Chris Ryan]

So I stand with my brothers on the line. What did you think of this episode?

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, you're right. It's a shame that it took 14 weeks to get to an episode in which the challenge is creative and is met with an elevation of execution. Like that's what the show is supposed to be.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it wasn't like, and you have 12 seconds to do it.

[Andy Greenwald]

But also like, it was challenging and they elevated their game. They rose to the challenge, which hadn't really happened consistently. And I generally say a version of this every year which is like, unlike some more drama forward, competition shows excellence begets excellence on Top Chef. Like, the best episodes are ones where Tom is happy, where everyone has done a good job and the conversation is more about, like nitpicks rather than like how obvious it was that someone just face planted. That said, it was obvious Jonathan was going home. Even when it was revealed, he did a very good job because the ambition of what he was doing was so much less than what everyone else is doing and the plating was kind of silly.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think Tom's been a little cranky this season?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think he should be. I think there's every reason to be cranky, but the counterpoint is when he's really happy and Kristen's like, oh, happy. Tom is here and he seems quite engaged. He still can be engaged. When it's all going well. I think the criticism remains the criticism, which is there is something that just feels claustrophobic and off about the penultimate episode to send people to the finals. And I'm not even sure if they traveled for the finals. Usually they're like, next week. Or they tell them like, you're going to Paris or you're going to grand or Star City. If we get a brand activation, like, correct me if I'm wrong. But they didn't say anything about where they were going and it looked like they didn't do. They used to take a long break, like four to six weeks.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I think they take a break because I think I notice I always. I always enjoy when people come and they have, like, a slightly different look.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

That said, it will be another windhorst fingers, like, if they just didn't travel and they're just, like, still in the Carolinas somehow about the budget things, because this is the penultimate episode and we're supposed to be this crowning achievement before we get to the obviously challenging, but also the known quantity of. Make the best meal you've ever made. And in the episode to send people to that great opportunity, they played 20 questions in the studio and then picked out plates in the studio. And then filming picked up in a relatively claustrophobic restaurant with the great John Yao of Cato here in LA being like, you did a good job.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It feels so small, and that's a bummer. And maybe that's, as I say every week, like, that's the reality of it now. Or maybe you tell me, maybe this is just a nitpick. When the execution was. I think that the.

[Chris Ryan]

When. When the cooking feels like it's push. Like, I feel like those three, Those four chefs, but specifically the three that advanced were actually pushing each other. Like, I think that there's even. There's this awareness that Rhoda has momentum and that she's won a bunch of things. There's, like. I think Sherry is actually like, beyond her cooking, like an interesting television character who clearly has a lot of self confidence and is a little bit. I don't know, is she prickly? I don't.

[Andy Greenwald]

My kids hate her. Sorry, Sherry. But, like, I'm watching the season for the first time finally with the kids,

[Chris Ryan]

but I think she's like, I think I can win this. And, like, I'm gonna kind of operate for. From that assumption. And. And. And I just, you know, this.

[Andy Greenwald]

This season, peaking at the right time.

[Chris Ryan]

This season has had a lot of, like, false starts. It's had a lot of, like, Pratt Falls. It's had the weird Last Chance Kitchen situation. So it's nice to see it ending with, like, three people whose food I would want to eat and who I think are. Are pushing each other. We should wrap it up there. Thanks to everyone for listening, and we'll be back on Monday with some Star City and maybe like a, you know, a couple of other surprises, but I'm not exactly sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, there's stuff we haven't, like, we haven't. We started Legends. We didn't finish it. There's a couple other shows that I'd like to check out like Amadeus. So there's, there's things.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I have a really hot recommendation for you.

[Andy Greenwald]

You've watched something I did.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know if you can handle it.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean that's fair.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you watching Dark Wizard?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, I should watch that. Yeah. So bro.

[Chris Ryan]

So first of all, it's seriously scratching my hundred foot wave itch.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. Same filmmakers or just HBO documentary?

[Chris Ryan]

HBO documentary about a mountain climber. A free solo climber Dean Potter and his rivalry with Alex Honnold. And just in terms of like the esthetic of everybody's wearing Patagonia and climbing in Yosemite in the mid 2000s. It's awesome. I will say no more. But it is fucking tense.

[Andy Greenwald]

I can probably handle it. I was knee jerk avoiding it because

[Chris Ryan]

my wife's like palms were sweating watching it.

[Andy Greenwald]

You just get a frozen peas on them. Dr. House. Whatever you need. I selfishly was like I feel like I've done enough with Potters and Dark Wizards and HBO recently, but now what? But I said that glibly not knowing it was a documentary about mountain climbers at all. Yeah. So I think that's a good wreck. People have been talking about it.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, so we'll see you guys on Monday.

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