‘Paradise’ Season 2 Finale With Mina Kimes. Plus, ‘Euphoria’ S3 Trailer, ‘Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen,' and 'Project Hail Mary'

Summary

The Watch – ‘Paradise’ Season 2 Finale With Mina Kimes

Hosts: Chris Ryan, Andy Greenwald
Guest: Mina Kimes
Date: March 30, 2026

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Overview

This episode of The Watch is packed with deep dives into some of TV’s buzziest offerings:

• A lively, spoiler-heavy breakdown of the ‘Paradise’ Season 2 finale with Mina Kimes, exploring the show’s evolving mythology, character arcs, and time travel intrigue.
• Quick-hit reactions to the new ‘Euphoria’ Season 3 trailer and discussion of its unique promo cycle.
• Fresh thoughts on Netflix's horror-thriller ‘Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen’, including the challenge of longform horror storytelling.
• A review of blockbuster sci-fi movie ‘Project Hail Mary’, with a broader commentary on adult-friendly Hollywood spectacles.
• Tangents on ‘White Lotus’ Season 4 casting, ‘Top Chef,’ and Eagles football – all in the signature Watch tone: sharp, irreverent, and occasionally silly.

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Key Discussion Points

1. ‘Euphoria’ Season 3 Trailer ([01:24]-[06:20])

• Chris & Andy’s fresh, in-the-moment reaction:
  Both hosts just watched the new 'Euphoria' trailer and reflected on the oddity of its low-key promo push, considering the show’s profile.
• Andy admits he’s new to the show:
  • "Not a frame." – Andy on whether he's seen ‘Euphoria’ before ([03:02])
• The hosts express excitement to treat Season 3 as a standalone – “There were no two seasons before this. …I’m watching this.” - Andy ([03:37])
• Zendaya’s stardom:
  • “She’s also one of our only real stars, I think, in the world, Zendaya.” – Andy ([05:45])
• A mutual “let’s dive in blind!” pact for the coming season.

2. ‘White Lotus’ Season 4 Cast Reveal ([06:29]-[10:36])

• Chris and Andy rattle off the sprawling, intriguing French cast for the upcoming season – from Helena Bonham Carter to Heather Graham and Rosie Perez.
• "He is fan casting White Lotus better than fans could." – Andy on Mike White’s casting prowess ([09:48])
• Noted shift to a bigger, “deeper bench” after last season’s claustrophobia ([09:09])
• Season likely slated for 2027, with filming about to start ([10:33])

3. ‘Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen’ – Netflix Horror Series ([11:33]-[28:38])

• Chris’s strong recommendation:
  "I think it’s one of the best first episodes of a TV show I’ve seen in a long time." ([13:44])
• **Why it works: **
  • Efficient character introductions, sustained and escalating tension, bold longform horror on TV (“it is low key one of the hardest things to do” – Chris [11:44])
• Andy’s take:
  • Applauds creator Hayley Boston’s unfiltered vision (“this creator’s voice was heard and is coming through and that this wasn’t noted or neutered in any way” – Andy [16:41])
  • Finds the intensity almost too much: “I have to tap out. Maybe that escalation is a good thing. But for me it isn’t.” ([22:08])
  • “The mechanics of it are really interesting because it’s also borrowing from that pronounced must watch next episode prescription.” – Chris ([24:43])
• Discussion of the challenge balancing sustained dread with bingeability, and how Netflix’s model both enables and complicates these experiments.

4. ‘Project Hail Mary’ Review ([28:44]-[42:11])

• Andy’s opening wish:
  • "I wish there were ten of these movies a year, instead of maybe three every five years." ([29:10])
• The hosts praise Lord & Miller’s balance between science-driven narrative and earnest buddy comedy.
• The Spielberg Touch:
  • “The people in the movie need to reflect the feelings of the people watching the movie about how amazing this is.” – Chris ([34:08])
• Concerns about the lack of adult-oriented blockbusters, and relief that 'Project Hail Mary' offers entertainment for everyone, not just kids/fans.
• Fun hypotheticals: Would you stay on an alien planet forever if it meant chilling with cute rock-aliens and avoiding responsibility? ([39:08])
• “I think it’s an impressive act of adaptation, truly. But people’s mileage may vary.” – Andy ([36:56])

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In-Depth: ‘Paradise’ Season 2 Finale with Mina Kimes ([44:27]-[81:47])

The Show’s Unique Space in TV

• Hybrid identity:
  • “It does occupy a weird space…it’s like caught…between timelines. There’s a dose of prestige and a dose of hamminess that we don’t really see mixed together a lot in television right now.” – Mina ([45:31])
  • Chris and Mina celebrate the show's willingness to dive into time travel shenanigans, while also noting its throwback, almost sentimental airs.

Pacing and Storytelling

• Andy jokes that it’s “paradise for the podcast generation because…you can engage with this show two ways.” ([47:18])
• The show aggressively moves forward, making huge plot leaps – "Lost, that would have been a season," Andy quips about a pivotal computer’s origin ([48:18])

Season 2 Finale Breakdown

• Discussion of Alex as a supercomputer manipulating time, designed (maybe) by Dylan/Link, and once tied to Henry’s late wife ([46:53]-[50:20])
• “I don’t know if drawing everything out the way we did 20 years ago…was better. This is a very aggressive choice to tell the story they want to tell in a very limited time.” – Andy ([48:22])

Character and Plot Arcs

• Sinatra’s transformation:
  • Abrupt shift from antagonist to self-sacrificing leader:
    “After she was such a big bad in season one and vaguely demonic…and suddenly she’s free to not be a psychopath anymore.” – Mina ([54:17])
• Debates about who’ll be the antagonist going forward; could the show lose its edge without Sinatra?
• The kids ("the New Mutants") and underwhelming subplots:
  • “I want to do something about the kids, Marty.” – Andy ([72:39])
  • “The only scene I enjoyed with the teens all season long was when Presley and Cal’s son reunited, started making out, and Xavier was like ‘woah woah woah, too long.’” – Mina ([75:09])

Time Travel, Alex, and Big Mysteries

• On the core questions about Alex:
  • “Is Alex good or bad? We don’t actually know.” – Mina ([80:31])
  • Are there multiple timelines? Are characters like Dylan/Link being reborn? Why the nosebleeds? Are events being nudged from one timeline to another?
  • Mina lays out the paradoxes: "We know Alex can predict the future...can hop on AIM Instant Messenger and hit up the past...what's still unclear is whether or not Alex is setting in motion some of these coincidences.” ([62:08])
• Best episodes:
  • The hosts and Mina agree the best parts of the season were tense, isolated stories (the Graceland episode, the “mailman” bunker episode) that channeled pandemic vibes or genuinely scary climate disaster.

Hopes for Season 3

• Desire for restored stakes/menace ("they need to find a way to create the menace that is in the first season with the climate change stuff." – Mina [78:10])
• A call for one more magnetic presence to replace Sinatra if Julianne Nicholson’s character’s gone ([79:47])
• The big remaining question: what is Alex’s true goal—save the world, restart it, or serve itself?
• “I'm really hoping that they pull it off...they destroy it, paradise never happened, and we end with an alternate timeline of President Cal. President Cal just doing a bracket on TV.” – Mina ([81:35])

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Other Notable Segments

‘Top Chef’ Season Check-in ([82:27]-[87:02])

• “Alex has fixed Top Chef and the show has its mojo back…they have reinvigorated themselves” – Andy ([82:48])
• The current season praised for strong casting, regional challenges, better drama (twins, partners), and renewed clarity.
• Quick debate over the merit (and editing) of the week’s elimination.

TV & Reality Show Chatter ([87:28]-[90:02])

• Mina plugs her other shows: covering ‘Paradise’, ‘The Boys’, and ‘Love is Blind’ on her podcast 'Viewer Discretion.'
• Jury Duty’s casting of wholesome guys baffles and delights everyone.
• “Are Jury Duty and Top Chef the only shows that make you feel good about humanity?” – Mina ([89:14])

Philadelphia Eagles, Football & CR Month ([91:00]-[98:18])

• Spirited banter on the Eagles’ roster, A.J. Brown rumor mill, soft rebuild(s), playbook hopes, Andy’s positivity/pessimism cycle, and celebratory notes for Mina’s Super Bowl win and Chris’s CR Month ("I feel like I'm the avatar of the CR heads in the Ringer universe" – Mina [97:01])
• “You never want the perfect place to be as a fan is when you’re slightly exceeding expectations.” – Mina ([95:48])

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Memorable Quotes

• “I am here to tell you: we're doing it this way. There were no two seasons before this. I'm not even going to engage.” – Andy on Euphoria ([03:37])
• “He is fan-casting White Lotus better than fans could by casting people who feel like they always should have been in this.” – Andy ([09:48])
• “This creator’s voice was heard and is coming through and that this wasn’t noted or neutered in any way.” – Andy on ‘Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen’ ([16:41])
• “The people in the movie need to reflect the feelings of the people watching the movie about how amazing this is.” – Chris on ‘Project Hail Mary’ ([34:08])
• “It took the edge off.” – Mina, on Sinatra’s sudden personality change in the ‘Paradise’ finale ([54:55])
• “Is Alex good or bad? We don’t actually know.” – Mina ([80:31])
• “I think if I were to imagine what Howie Roseman's doing, I think he's thinking about like two years from now rather than right now.” – Chris ([93:24])
• “You never want the perfect place to be as a fan is when you're slightly exceeding expectations.” – Mina ([95:48])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start | |----------------------------------------|-------------| | Euphoria S3 Trailer | 01:24 | | White Lotus S4 Cast | 06:29 | | Something Very Bad is Going to Happen | 11:33 | | Project Hail Mary | 28:44 | | Paradise S2 Finale w/ Mina Kimes | 44:27 | | Eagles / NFL Talk | 91:00 | | Top Chef and TV Reality Check | 82:27 |

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Final Thoughts

This episode embodies The Watch’s blend of insightful critique, pop culture reverence, and conversational fun. The focus on ‘Paradise’ delves deep into the show's structure and leaves listeners both satisfied and eager for next season’s answers. Both hardcore and casual fans will find plenty in here to sink their teeth into—whether they're tuning in for genre TV analysis, reality cooking competitions, or the ever-present saga of the Philadelphia Eagles.

Transcript

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like analyzing plot twists, TaxAct guides you step by step to make sure you get your maximum refund. Get tips along the way. Add expert Assist to talk to tax experts or let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else. But that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from vw, from the other outcasts out there. Take a chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then. Because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn [e-mail]. PAIN Sports to have to clear the

[Andy Greenwald]

room, Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio, traveling through time with a nosebleed, it's Andy Greenwald.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know what time it is?

[Chris Ryan]

What time is it?

[Andy Greenwald]

We just watched the Euphoria trailer.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure, brother. We're going to talk about the Euphoria trailer. We're going to talk about something very bad is going to happen. We might get a couple of minutes of Andy at Project Hail Mary talk

[Andy Greenwald]

mostly about the concessions.

[Chris Ryan]

The big thing we got going on on the Pod today is Mina Kimes came by to talk about the season finale of Paradise. So we had a very fun chat with her about that, as well as Sean Manion's offensive philosophy and A.J. brown's trade prospects.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's at the end of the pod.

[Chris Ryan]

That's for the watch. Bird After Dark kind of. Sit the [e-mail] for email, the WatchPod underscore for Instagram. Watch us on ringer-tv, on YouTube or on Spotify, where you can also listen to us or listen to us wherever you can get podcasts. Let's start with Euphoria. Yeah, this is.

[Andy Greenwald]

We just did it. This is live to take.

[Chris Ryan]

We just watched it and it's been very strange, I think partially because I don't really even know if the promo cycle for the show has even started in earnest. Like, I have not seen a big piece about It. There hasn't been a huge Sam Levinson. I'm sure that stuff is coming soon. But like usually with a show of this stature, with this popularity and with it being the final season and several years since the last season, you'd expect like a much bigger drum beat. This is the first significant amount. We had a teaser. Now we have like a three minute trailer that dropped today. I am a fan of this show. I loved parts of season two. Significant. Like I really, really liked it. But I. I feel like we've always been. We've always missed each other. I don't think we really talked about season one.

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

I think I talked about two. Maybe with somebody else, but not with you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Have you ever watched Euphoria?

[Andy Greenwald]

Not a frame.

[Chris Ryan]

Holy shit.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I'm here to tell you something. Yeah, it's Kya is my witness. Yeah. I can't. I can't front. That looked good as hell. That looked fucking sick.

[Chris Ryan]

That's not indicative.

[Andy Greenwald]

If that's the show.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not.

[Andy Greenwald]

Here's what I'm gonna do. Don't do this to me.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not doing anything to you. This is what the show has become.

[Andy Greenwald]

Great. I wanna watch this show.

[Chris Ryan]

We're watching Rue the drug mule and like her high school friends who have now all become waste cases.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's go.

[Chris Ryan]

Trying to find redemption in this California nightmare that we live in.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think you're seeing my face right now.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm fucking pumped, dude.

[Andy Greenwald]

I am here to tell you we're doing it this way. There were no two seasons before this. I'm not even going to engage. This is the new season. I'm watching this.

[Chris Ryan]

This is right. There's not. And what if this is good?

[Andy Greenwald]

That's all I care about. You know what?

[Chris Ryan]

Who's going to tell us? No. Well, I don't see the TV cops here. Right. Who's going to tell us?

[Andy Greenwald]

I do hear some sirens. I do.

[Chris Ryan]

No one's going to tell you. You have to watch two seasons of Euphoria plus the Christmas specials.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's go back to a more pure state. In which a teaser trailer teases my interest. In which a trailer piques it even further. And now I'm like, she's in Mexico. Frankenstein looks upset. Colman Domingo. Done.

[Chris Ryan]

Who did Sydney Sweeney vote for Couldn't care less.

[Andy Greenwald]

But respect to her brother. Like, this looks awesome. And if this is the show, let's do it. Sharon Stone and Sharon Stone on the WB lot. No problem. This is like it not to be. Not to be glib. Like, we were, we were discussing, we were critiquing, we were enjoying, we were rolling with the ways that industry DGAF about what it is supposed to be doing in its third or into its fourth season.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I am very much here for the opportunity to. To meet a hyped show that has also been a very troubled show and production, for sure. And not even necessarily in terms of, like, tabloid stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

They were finding themselves in production, you know that. And there were some issues and they

[Andy Greenwald]

were finding a schedule that worked for their suddenly globally famous cast and everything else. But if what they settled on was fuck it, then I would like to see what that looks like.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. If they're making Magnolia with guns, I'm pretty into it.

[Andy Greenwald]

You always have been.

[Chris Ryan]

And this, the Rue character, the Zendaya character has just been like a really cool evolution over the now third season.

[Andy Greenwald]

She seems to be in a cool

[Chris Ryan]

place and she seems to be in a really fucked up place, but she's looking for a way out. She's looking for a happy ending for herself.

[Andy Greenwald]

She's also one of our only real stars, I think, in the world, Zendaya. And I'm eager to engage with what I believe to be the first season of her HBO show.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll be excited to see the text messages that I get when you're like, and I would know this guy in relationship to this person.

[Andy Greenwald]

How I am not gonna give you that. My new thing starting. What time is it?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm gonna 11:18 on Monday.

[Andy Greenwald]

I say yes. This is a whole new pivot from me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Previously I said, now I'm gonna say yes.

[Chris Ryan]

CR month changed you.

[Andy Greenwald]

It really did. By the way, it's a long month. We're still going. This is our last. Our last podcast of CR month.

[Chris Ryan]

This is our podcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you have any more?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, no. By the time this feed sees me again, it will be post CR month. So I'll be a shell of myself. Yeah. There's some other news, I guess. I mean, there's more additions to the White Lotus cast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but you're not as interested in that.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm interested.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're in prove it mode with the White Lotus.

[Chris Ryan]

Look, he doesn't have to prove anything to me. Mike White just recently on Survivor 50. The guy is ripped. Did you know that? Mike White, like, absolutely jacked.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You did know that?

[Andy Greenwald]

I did know that.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you see it on Facebook?

[Andy Greenwald]

No. I have a Google alert set to staying fit after 50.

[Chris Ryan]

Mike White muscle tone.

[Andy Greenwald]

Mike White muscle. And it's just white muscles.

[Chris Ryan]

I search for list off the cast that's in this. This season of White Lotus Season 4, which is, I believe, set in France.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, this is the previously announced cast. Do you want to react in any way as I say the names or do you want to save your applause

[Chris Ryan]

to the full rost of lineup?

[Andy Greenwald]

Chloe Bennett, Sandra Bernhardt, Helena Bonham Carter, Vincent Cassell, Steve Coogan, Caleb Jonte Edwards, Dylan Ennis, Quarantine. Fila. We're in the area of the cast of which I don't know who these people are, but I respect. Ari Grayner, Max Greenfield, Charlie Hall, Marissa Long, Alexander Ludwig. Perhaps it's Ludwig. Chris Messina, AJ Machalka, Kumail Nanjani, Jared Paul, Nadia Turishkevich. I want to say. I didn't want to say. And then joining as of today, Heather Graham, recently back in the cinemas as well. Right. For the horror movie. Rosie Perez. Ben Schnetzer, who I believe you and I know from the Madison.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah, that guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Tobias Santleman.

[Chris Ryan]

That guy's named Val. On the Madison.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't listen to the names. I just groove to the archetypes.

[Chris Ryan]

Watch the faces.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, Groove to the archetypes. With Andy saying.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Frida Gustafson and Laura Smet.

[Chris Ryan]

Can I ask you something?

[Mina Kimes]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

That's a lot of guests at the White Lotus.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a big hotel this year.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder, and. And if you had to guess who's working this, who's working behind the desk and who's a guest.

[Andy Greenwald]

Everyone. I said who's French is going to be working behind the desk except Vincent Cassel.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe he's the hotel manager.

[Andy Greenwald]

Possibly he's.

[Chris Ryan]

He's.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm gonna. You know what? He's too handsome.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not in prove it mode. I thought there was a lot to love about season three. I didn't think it was the most successful of the three seasons for me personally, like, in terms of, like, the way it clicked together and what it was about. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the only thing that you can determine from what we were just saying about the cast list is one of the critiques of season three was that it felt a little bit claustrophobic and small and the storylines were pretty much, you know, distinct siloed nodules early on.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

This seems to be. I don't know if it's necessarily a response to that, but this is a much bigger and deeper bench of characters who could potentially be interacting in ways that we will be delighted by.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The only thing that I want to bring out by mentioning the cast is something that we have said before, which is they should take the first best casting Oscar that they gave to Vanessa Kulakundis and give it to Mike White. Because it's not just that he's so good at casting and so interesting with the cast that he finds and is able to write for write parts that suit actors who have been misserved often in later parts of their careers or

[Chris Ryan]

thought of only as one thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it's that what he's doing now. Like, do you remember when we did the like the fan casting True Detective season two stuff and everybody was having a lot of fun with that back when Twitter was fun and back when anyone had fun doing anything online. He is fan casting White Lotus better than fans could by casting people who feel like they always should have been in this. Heather Graham and Rosie Perez, like, okay, of course, of course. That makes sense.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, he's done a bunch of sort of more supporting roles in recent years, but has not been like front and center in a minute.

[Andy Greenwald]

Hopefully he'll have Sandra Bernhard, Max Greenfield, and then I think that Steve Coogan and Helena Bonham Carter, just like they'll

[Chris Ryan]

probably be a couple in this. Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Born to do this.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm excited to turn you around.

[Chris Ryan]

This is 27, correct?

[Andy Greenwald]

I would expect so.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Because they probably haven't even started shooting yet.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think they're just about to start shooting.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast for from us, from vw, from the other outcasts out there. Take a chance, make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn [e-mail] let's talk a little bit about some a new TV show and then a newish movie. Just because I wanted to get your project Hail Mary thoughts after the fact. And then we'll bring Mina on and we'll do Paradise. I asked you to check out something Very Bad is Going to Happen, which is on Netflix. It's created by Hayley Boston, who did a pretty cool movie a few years ago called Brand New Cherry Flavor and it is the first two episodes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that the TV show that was on Netflix?

[Chris Ryan]

She was a writer on that and then it's directed. The first couple of episodes are directed by a filmmaker named Veronica Tafa.

[Andy Greenwald]

Veronica.

[Chris Ryan]

Veronica Tolka who did Baby Reindeer. Did two episodes of Baby Reindeer but did Love Lies Bleeding which is a movie with Kristen Stewart from a year or two ago that was very cool. Kind of had like a Blood simple kind of vibe. And this show stars Camila Marone who people might remember from Daisy Jones and the Six or from the most recent season of Night manager and Adam DeMarco who people might remember from the White Lotus and Jennifer Jason Lee and Ted Lavine and is essentially. So far I've watched three episodes a fucked up Rosemary's Baby Birth like folk horror like From Hell thriller and really like really, really well constructed example of how to do horror in long form television which I think is low key. One of the hardest things to do.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who do you think is Mike Flanagan? Sort of the leading.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And here's the. This is the inversion of what Mike Flanagan does. Mike Flanagan will make you wait for six and a half hours for the scare and it will be dread but it will really be this character studies of people who have all arrived at this place one way or the and now are going through a transformational moment and then sort of almost to Catal as a catalyst for the transformations that these people are going through. They'll have a vampire or a haunted house or something will. Will bring this kind of new understanding and emotional healing about sometimes not healing, sometimes death. This is a little bit of the inversion. So what the creators and the filmmakers in this show are trying to do is keep the tension more or less at like an 8.5 out of 10 for hours. And it is. You could say your mileage may vary on horror for you. I'm curious to see how you felt about it. I think it's one of the best first episodes of a TV show I've seen in a long time. When you get past that first hour.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You're like holy shit. I like legit. Don't know if I can do this because it is so. I had that feeling exhausting to be in the character Camilla Morone plays Rachel. Rachel who is the a bride to be at her fiance's parents palatial wooded estate. I can't remember.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's Canada. They don't actually. If you see the wedding invitation, there's no further information.

[Chris Ryan]

I wasn't sure if it was like Michigan.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like I think it's sure the answer to all that is yes.

[Chris Ryan]

In any case they are. She's. She's meeting the family for the first time. This is her wedding weekend. She thinks it's going to be a small ceremony. It turns out it's going to be much larger and almost as soon as the show starts. But especially when they get to this estate, just weird shit happens all the time. This is a Netflix show, so, like, it's really hard to even read about because it'll just be like, let's talk about the ending. I don't.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's doing really well and I

[Chris Ryan]

don't want to spoil it for myself. And I think it's doing quite well. Yes. What did you think of the first episode which you watched?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I think. Well, it's interesting to hear you talk about. And this might be a separate conversation about how the challenges of adapting horror to long form television. I would imagine it is similar to the challenges with rom coms in that these are both film cinema languages that have a very specific rhythm and schedule almost to deliver what you for the deliverables. And that's challenging to stretch out in a way that feels satisfying to that point. One of the things that I really appreciated about this pilot is that it is incredibly efficient in communicating who these two people are. These, these engaged, this young engaged couple who are driving towards their wedding.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Nikki and Rachel in the first 10, 15 minutes, which is ostensibly the normal time and maybe to your point, the last normal time of the show. They are both as performers and just how the show presents them, incredibly charming and you're empathetic towards them and you kind of get the rhythms of them in a way that draws you in. Even those of us who are slightly immune to this type of storytelling. Before we get to how I felt at the end of the episode, I also want to say, and maybe this is just the new say yes me or maybe just a little bit of softening. I was mostly thrilled in those first 15, 20, even 30 minutes as it starts to turn, because what I. I don't know anything about Hailey Boston who made the show, I don't know anything about the production of the show, but I felt it made me feel really happy that this young creator who clearly is passionate about this type of storytelling, possibly even this story, that she was able to articulate what she wanted to do so clearly and so passionately and then that that pitch was heard clearly and passionately by, I guess, the Duffer brothers who produced this. Yeah. Who executive produced it, that they brought on the right cast, they brought on the right director to execute it. Because I breathe. There's an LA Times profile of Hayley and you know, it talks about how this is her first time as a showrunner and all of that. It just seems like this is one of those opportunities that nobody fumbled the bag and they gave a first time creator. And by the way, I'm not saying this, I'm not projecting anything. I had a chance to do everything I wanted to, good or bad, and I feel very fortunate for that. I love it when that happens because whatever you may say about the show, and I will say good things and bad things, I really feel strongly that this creator's voice was heard and is coming through and that this wasn't noted or neutered in any way. And there's not a lot of that on tv. The development process, even at its best, chokes a lot of chaos or passion out of projects.

[Chris Ryan]

This has kind of been a running theme of like a lot of the shows that we've talked about over the last six months is like, I think your sensitivity and your like awareness of like, you can tell that this was like unnoticed or not fucked with or had like a supportive hand in bringing it to the screen. So it's interesting to hear you say that.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, we could get emails later being like, oh no, it was a nightmare. But I don't. The all we're talking about now is just the result that's on screen. And there's a confidence to this and the shorthand going back to that. The way the characters are introduced, you like them, you understand their vibe, you see how they relate to each other. Camila Maroney, who I like a lot, generally, even within a few moments, this is probably the best I've ever seen her on screen. Because whether it's comfort with her co

[Chris Ryan]

star, she makes the show or with

[Andy Greenwald]

the production, I'm like, this is just. She understands this person that she's playing.

[Chris Ryan]

She doesn't. I, you know, I, I know that Hailey Boston's from Portland, the Rachel characters from Oregon, like, I, I think that she is.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

When in pictures I've seen of Hayley Boston, like Camilla Marone is not dressed unlike her, kind of. And if you are going to shoot a show, an eight hour show that's entirely from the pov, more or less from of, of a character, if you're gonna be locked in with that actor to that extent, she's got a great canvas because like Camilla Morone is doing like awesome, awesome work and is so vulnerable and scared, but also like dealing with her own anxieties and panics and maybe has secrets of her own and things that she doesn't understand about herself. So it really, really, really, really worked for me. The thing I'm fascinated by, and I guess we can get into this first episode, is like what you do differently when you're telling a horror story, for lack of a better term, over the course of eight hours versus what you would do for 90 to two, 90 minutes to two hours. And like the first 15 minutes, which I think you were a fan of very much so, are a good example of. It's such a tone setter. The filmmaking is basically, you're inside of this car with these people as they're on a road trip from the Midwest up to their. Their wedding destination. And you stop at a diner and they like, are trying to keep each other awake and chatting and listening to a podcast and listening to music and playing road games and stuff. But the camera is telling you it's screaming to you, this isn't right. There's something up. There's also this. If you pay attention to every single thing that's happening, almost all of it is paid off, even within the episode. So, for example, she's listening to a podcast about a woman who lived through a murder attempt. And one of the details that she remembers from this murder attempt is that there was a small, like, doll shoe on the ground. And she was like, I'll remember. I remember that shoe. And it prompted me to run away or whatever. In like two scenes later, the Rachel character finds the same kind of shoe on the floor of a public bathroom at a rest. And during a very traumatizing moment, it's just like, you know, the truck that goes by them that seems creepy is also at a dive bar. Like, you can play detective with this show. Then there's also just like a Lynchian kind of other dreamlike worldliness to it, but it is, it is. It'll fire on your nerves, man. Like, I was watching it with my wife and we watched so much horror together. And even my wife was like, this is really tough to do this much and only be at the beginning of

[Andy Greenwald]

this, like when they arrive at the family home. And Gus Bernie, who's an actor that I think I like a lot also, I'm a fan. Her dad is Reed Bernie, who's a great New York stage and screen actor, which is not a reason to like or dislike her.

[Chris Ryan]

Portia.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, she plays Portia. And so she was on Black Rabbit recently.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

When we meet her, and this is like the 30 minute halfway mark basically of the pilot, she's Turned like she is at an 11 on the spinal Tap scale of what this character is doing. And to your point, that's an interesting ingredient to throw into the pot early in the cooking process. How do you build on that? Where is there to go? But it's kind of a provocation in a way that clearly is working in terms of its viewership and its success in terms of getting people to keep going to see where it goes. I had a hard time with it. I liked that scene in a vacuum.

[Chris Ryan]

But the tonal shift of it from what we had seen up until my thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think what's gonna be interesting in talking about the show, which I don't know if I can stick with.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I understand, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

Cause I just don't enjoy this. This is just not my genre. But what I thought was interesting and I think what I'm about to criticize might be a sign of success in your metric, is that any scene in the pilot, whether it's them driving just the two of them early, whether it's the very disturbing like baby in the car sequence that leads to a dive bar, whether it's this meeting the family or whether it's where it ends with Jennifer Jason Leigh. Seal off any of these scenes in parentheses, take them out and watch them. I'm like, this is really cool. There's a lot of ideas here. There's a lot of emotion, there's a lot of tension. The filmmaking is good when they are stacked on top of each other. I have to tap out. Maybe that escalation is a good thing. But for me it isn't. Because the thing that I struggle with, with the genre is the inevitable. And look, this is a whole other conversation. Like horror really works especially for young filmmakers because it is a tried and true recipe that you can throw different things.

[Chris Ryan]

In the case of this show, it's an example of post Covid production tricks of like, let's just get five people and have them in one set, basically. And like horror excels at isol, at a limited, sort of a limited canvas of characters to play with, and making them be in opposition to each other because they are stuck in a place together.

[Andy Greenwald]

What I struggle with, separate and apart from my nervous disposition, is that once you get onto the prescribed horror track, where these things go is inevitably a place of extremity and horror and violence or death or jump scares. When I'm more interested in a more. A more quotidian friction, let's say, in terms of like, the things that are inspiring. Hailey Boston and her collaborators on the show to make this series, which I think comes from, you know, places of, like, anxiety and mistrust and uncertainty about traditional marriage tracks or meeting your partner's family and all of that. Generally, I just. I'd rather the show that stays there. Not that takes it to this extreme, but, yes, people listening to our show will understand that if Rachel goes to visit Nikki's family, and Nikki's families happen to be all Cold War era spies, I'd be like, this is the fucking shit, right? This is awesome. Sometimes that's my happy place genre.

[Chris Ryan]

There's honey night, Cheerios. I get you.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's what I'm trying to express. I really enjoyed the exercise of watching the show, and it gave me a lot of good feelings, especially because you told me not to watch it last night. So I started my day with it instead of ending my day with it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I don't know if it's a nighttime show for you. The mechanics of it are really interesting because it's also borrowing from that pronounced must watch next episode Prescription. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that that's built into, hey, when you're writing these scripts, make sure there's something that happens in the last two minutes that people cannot stop from clicking next episode and everything from the pit to whatever else does that. Now Paradise. There's something specific in, I think, a lot of Netflix shows, and I've noticed, like, you know, with the prestige crime apple shows where you get to the end of an episode and you're like, oh, my God, the daughter did it. And then the next five minutes and it's like, oh, my God, the new nurse is in a headlock. And then the next five minutes of the next episode is like, it's okay, we're fine. Or it's not that. It's something else to do that with Horror is hard because the thing that I was hearing the most from my wife, and I honestly echo her, is like, she's got to get the fuck out of there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Why doesn't she just go, yeah?

[Chris Ryan]

And now what I imagine is going to happen just based on Rachel's weird tattoos, her interesting backstory of, like, never knowing her mother and she has an agoraphobic father and, like, what has led her to this place and etc. And she has, like, obviously some panic issues. What I think is going to probably be the case is that there is a reason why she is there, but both on her side, not just the family side, and that there is a reason why she can't Leave, or she has not chosen to leave. But, yeah, it's hard to have it be like, oh, yeah, I know this is, like, the scariest thing you've ever seen in your life, but there's an easy explanation for it, and you should just stick through this wedding that obviously is doomed.

[Andy Greenwald]

But do you know what's kind of interesting thing to think about is the A24 model these last few years, which has shifted a lot, especially now that they're kind of in their blockbuster era.

[Chris Ryan]

Elden Ring era. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, exactly that. But they were succeeding by identifying people with very passionate visions for something generally in more modest framing, whether it's a horror story or whatever, and saying, okay, go make your movie, and we'll take a bunch of lottery tickets with these, and if one of them hits, it pays for all of them. And Netflix has the engine to do that, you know, and you could say that it's similar. So the success of giving Hailey Boston the right setup to make this show isn't that dissimilar in some ways from giving Joe Barton the setup to make Black Doves, which is, by no one's metric, a traditional spy show, but works because of the combination of the right creator and the right vehicle for that creation. Like Black Doves, which we'll talk about when it comes back in season two. One of the reasons I loved it is I was like, this is a Netflix show. And I say that with an exclamation point, not a question mark. Like, this works for this medium where we're expecting a certain type of return on our time. Investment of, like, a. Yes. And attitude towards excess and energy and action, and everything's bigger.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it works. And, you know, a show. A show like this wouldn't hit, I think, and feel as exciting for the people who are watching it if it was on. I don't want to say a lesser streamer in terms of quality, but a lesser streamer in terms of market penetration. Let's say a streamer that doesn't feel confident charging $20 a month for its service, which, honestly, I saw that we're at war. What the fuck?

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. So I highly recommend this, Andy. I would say, honestly, a recommendation in and of itself is the fact that you went and finished this episode. Thank you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

And like, that. You were, like, intrigued enough with a bunch of the stuff that was going on. Like, really good performances, really interesting filmmaking for a TV show, and good writing. And it's like, I thought, I hope I get to talk to Hailey Boston, because I really I'm really excited to

[Andy Greenwald]

go deeper into this. This is the greatest example of a. It's not. It's. It's. It's. It's not you, it's me.

[Chris Ryan]

Before we get to Mina.

[Andy Greenwald]

Mm.

[Chris Ryan]

You did see Project Hail Mary this weekend.

[Andy Greenwald]

I did.

[Chris Ryan]

It's basically the only movie out. Like, it's just sucking up the entire box office right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you think?

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I just say, like, big picture. Not actually. Maybe actually. Hashtag the big picture. I. I have a lot of criticisms and I have a lot of, like, compliments for this film, but my main thing was I Wish There were 10 of these. These movies. Movies like this a year instead of like maybe three every five years.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. Now, when you say that, do you mean Andy Weir movies or do you just mean big, original, funny, crowd pleasing?

[Andy Greenwald]

We are all in this to entertain people around the world, maybe even to other worlds, and we are going to put our best and the brightest onto this particular project to execute that.

[Chris Ryan]

But do you. Yeah, but what's the distinction you would make between this and, like, Super Mario Galaxy does that, right?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think it's what you said at the beginning, like that there. This is original ip. It is based on a. And a book. It is. It's. It's interesting. It's conventional in a lot of ways, but it would be a tough. The tone that it tries to. To the. The needle that it tries to thread. And I think that it mostly succeeds in threading, which is like, this is at once a quite sober look at scientific process and cooperation and also a utterly glib buddy comedy between Ryan Gosling and a small rock. Like, that's hard to pitch that.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I think that it was committed to its own goal of entertaining in a way that, like. And listen, I'm going to have to. You're talking to someone who's going to have to see Super Mario Galaxy. Mostly because I'm a Nintendo completist. I won't bring my children that like. But cynically, we come here.

[Chris Ryan]

Heartbreak feels good in a place like this. Just Andy watching super.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just surrounded by toads.

[Chris Ryan]

And Nicole Kidman.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Not to be the old podcaster that I am or that we are, but it's like, there used to be a lot of movies that tried to entertain adults and kids. That. That was a wide net that people tried to do that. They didn't feel like, you know, the risk associated with that. Just Super Mario Galaxy is a safer return on investment than Project Hail Mary. Even with Ryan Gosling, even with Lord and Miller in a bestselling book. I think the problem is, and we find this also with, like, Oscar season movies, I think, is that when there's only one of them, it's gonna get a lot of slings and arrows also, because this has to be the movie for everybody. And then when one thing is the only example of that movie during a year, you spend more time pointing out the problems with it and like, yeah,

[Chris Ryan]

that's a good point.

[Andy Greenwald]

I had a great time, which maybe that's all that matters. I feel like Lord and Miller are. Remember that, like, when there was the post JJ Abrams, like, let's give Colin Trevorrow a movie. And all we're trying to do is find our next generation Spielberg and storytellers who like, well, it was like, let's

[Chris Ryan]

draft people out of indies to make big, big budget genre and usually superhero movies.

[Andy Greenwald]

These guys are the ones who can do that. And I know that this is probably their first live action opportunity to prove that. But as someone who has been in the sick day trenches watching Lego Movie and Mitchell's Versus the Machines and all the spider verse movies multiple times, these guys are preternaturally skilled at making you laugh and have a little bit of heart to them and having enough twists on the classic story, like Hero's Journey that it works. Like, the things that I was reading about that were additions to the movie, like the Don't Go Crazy room or the Carl character. And I know Drew Goddard wrote the script, and he's very, very good at doing this thing. And I'm sure many of the good ideas were also his. I don't want. I'm not in the business of Drew Goddard erasure, but there is a Lord and Miller jokiness. Jokiness. No, we're really gonna do the joke here. We're not gonna apologize for it. That was welcome.

[Chris Ryan]

I was trying to articulate this thing that I felt when. And this is spoilers for Project Hail Mary. But I think that's okay because that movie's made, like, $300 million in two weeks. Is the difference between how I felt watching the Gosling character do a spacewalk and seeing the purple and, like, the light changing in the sky as he's trying to, like, capture the astrophage thing. And, you know, it is a visual moment that I will remember so much better than anything that happens, let's say, in, like, the Fall Guy, which is another movie that I liked, which is another movie that stars Ryan Gosling and probably uses more or less like, the same Amount of effects that those two things are basically the same amount of aided by digital effects. And it really is like putting characters in situations where the characters are actually also amazed at what they are seeing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And this is the thing that Spielberg does, it's a great point, is when you watch Jurassic Park Rebirth or Jurassic World Rebirth or whatever it was with the Scarlett Johansson Mahershala Ali movie, none of the people in that movie are that impressed by seeing dinosaurs. And the actors don't seem to really, like, think it's that big of a deal. And all the stunts are like, I jumped off a cliff, did 35.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, somersaults and grabbed a wire over a canyon. And it's all just kind of, like, divorced from physics, but also bravery and fear and all these, like, human emotions. And the thing that Lord and Miller got, that I think is the thing that Spielberg understood, is that the people in the movie need to reflect the feelings of the people watching the movie about how amazing this is. And we have gotten so far away from that because what we've been watching are a bunch of glib superheroes. Be like, I'll flip this fucking car with my finger because I'm a superhero.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not surprised that you're blue because we all speak English.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And the movie. And I think this. I know this comes from the book. The amnesia part is very effective for that reason. Because literally every man. I mean, I wish every man was Ryan Gosling. I wish we were two Ryan Goslings talking to each other right now. We would know.

[Chris Ryan]

We would do some interesting stuff with

[Andy Greenwald]

video Now, Ty, you're on it. He wakes up and he's like, no, wrong star. Turn around. Now we understand a little bit more about this. And we feel alone. We feel scared. As opposed to we're being played. You know, we're used to a character waking up in space and being like, oh, cool, that's Thanos Homeworld. No problem. Be back before dinner.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

I completely agree with you about that. And I also think that there's a human touch when you have filmmakers who are in control of the process or empowered to be in control of the process. And the human touch is what casts Lionel Boyce. It's what casts Sandra Hooler, who is amazing in this movie. Like, truly. And grounds sequences that.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you ever see Anatomy of a Fall?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I never did.

[Chris Ryan]

I was gonna do a funny joke about it, but.

[Andy Greenwald]

You wanna talk about it?

[Chris Ryan]

I would love for you to watch it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe that'll be this. I mean, I Just watched Anora, so I'm just really catching up. You guys are ready for my takes about that, actually, I don't think you are.

[Chris Ryan]

In the spirit of you being like, it's Andy day zero and I'm ready to watch Euphoria. Yeah, I'm done trying to tame you.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just let me. Let me go wild.

[Chris Ryan]

You're like. Like, I'm Michelle Pfeiffer and these lands are wild. And I. I just have to. I have to meet you where you are. You know, me being like, you gotta watch this. We've got to do that. Run free.

[Andy Greenwald]

The truth is.

[Chris Ryan]

Tell me, tell me, is it. Is it a Nora week on this pod?

[Andy Greenwald]

Our imessage is like astrophage in that. It's just like.

[Chris Ryan]

It's.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just. It's. It's like fissile material that is just appearing all the time. I. I'll say. And I'm curious where you feel about this. I mean, look, everything I've come to understand about the book is that it is also a little bit lumpy, a little bit hokey at times, and it's also like 500 pages. So there are attempts to wrestle it down into this.

[Chris Ryan]

Strangely, a book that everybody seems to be like, you got to listen to the audiobook version.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who does it?

[Chris Ryan]

That's a great question. I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

You should be more prepared. Just saying.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't do audiobooks. Generally, I can't retain information.

[Andy Greenwald]

But if you said Tilda Swinton, I'd be like, I'll fire that up. It's Mikey Madison at what volume? So all that. I think it's an impressive act of adaptation, truly. But people's mileage may vary. I actually wanted a little bit more of the Martian scientist trying to save everything and a little bit less alien buddy comedy. Like, I knew having been spoiled. And I understand why it was in the trailer that that was where we were headed to a degree. I did not know that that's what the movie was basically going to be. And it was.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder if Ken Lung knew that movie was. That was what the movie was going to be.

[Andy Greenwald]

I also wonder that we love and in this house, we love and respect Ken, and he's a phenomenal actor, and it's awesome to be in the biggest movie in the world, But I would say that he is underrepresented in this film.

[Chris Ryan]

I just. I do wonder if there was some extra footage of his character that maybe didn't make it to the final cut.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just like we talked about this over. Over text. But, like, ultimately, like, all respect to the Eridians, I believe, and their intricate xenon. Xenon weaving strategies. But, like, I'd go home. I'd go home. Now, I know they've created a character who uniquely looks like Ryan Gosling and has no friends or loved ones. So it's NBD to just detour. And by the way, I imagine somehow making plans in space is easier than making plans in Los Angeles.

[Chris Ryan]

If you went home, would you tell everyone the truth about what decision you had made? Or you'd be. Would you just be like, I fixed it? And then he went home too, and it was all good?

[Andy Greenwald]

100%.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. That would be a lie you lived with.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

You wouldn't be like, I just made the decision that I wanted to see if me and Sandra Holler could make something work together.

[Andy Greenwald]

First of all, you're. What are you returning to? It's cold. You know what I mean? Like, everyone's old now. You didn't know anyone to begin with. You're a hero. I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

Hockey is the national sport.

[Andy Greenwald]

He did. Rivalry is ready for a comeback. It's been rebooted multiple times. You can't quibble with this movie because you have to accept it, and I'm a big believer in that. I did think his generative AI language software really stepped up quickly.

[Chris Ryan]

It was quick to learn. I think that if I had the opportunity to befriend a very cute species of rock aliens, and I didn't have, like, oh, God, who's gonna feed my cat? Kind of situation back home, that's my problem.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, I would just be like, yeah, let's. Let's rock out here. Also, I'm super into time. Moves different on, like, these. This planet or out in space. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So you can, like, wait out, like, all your homies can die, and then you can come back and just have crazy knowledge.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you can also be like, you also are really trusting that this dude who can weave anything will build you a biodome of the Pacific Northwest that you could just chill in.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

For as long as you want without any problems. But there's also the secondary level of thinking, which is just like, okay, they build this biodome for me, and I live with my robot friends on a beach, and he comes visits me, and that's fine. But what if you're a little congested and you're like, could I get some Afrin? And they're like, we don't have noses.

[Chris Ryan]

I think they can build Afrin, though, the guy out of metal.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I don't know. Like, what if you.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, how did he build the ocean? You know, that he can come up with some antihistamine.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know what they can and can't do. And I need a little more knowledge, you know what I mean? Like, what if. What if they're like, we'll make you all of this, you know, Couldn't be me. But, like, what if you, let's say, hypothetically, were a little lactose intolerant or like, you don't like onions that much? I would have, like, yeah, they're like, we grew verdant crops of Vidalia onions for you human. I feel like, would you be like, no, they're trying to create a good

[Chris Ryan]

dining experience for you. They're like, hey, yesterday the water was too hot, today it's too cold. Like, let's find something in the middle. Like, I think that they work. Work around what you need.

[Andy Greenwald]

They did. He did find and befriend a very, very friendly species.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, do you think? Yeah, there's probably a little bit more of a hostile version of that guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

There are a couple movies that I remember about an extraterrestrial coming to our planet, for example, with nothing but love in his heart and a little light in his finger. And we did not build him a terrarium so he could just chill out and teach us. No.

[Chris Ryan]

We hooked him up with Rhys's Pieces, though.

[Andy Greenwald]

One of us did. The Ryland Grace of his era did. But the representatives of the government did not. They did not.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it is asking a lot of our friends and neighbors in the galaxy.

[Chris Ryan]

I always love hearing you talk about space and what you do up there and how quick you'd quit on humanity.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's the best thing about the movie, since we're spoiling it, is the reveal of how he ends up on the spaceship. Great twist.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because that's the only way you're getting me up there, too. That is the only way. And there's going to be a sequel, I guess, Pretty clearly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Then this is a huge hit.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you like the movie? You're ducking it.

[Chris Ryan]

I really liked the present tense experience of watching it. I would say that it probably operated at like such a kind of like, winky, kind of fun loving tone for most of it, that emotionally it wasn't, like, as overwhelming for me. But, like, honestly, like, it's so much better than 80 to 90% of the shit I watch.

[Andy Greenwald]

My point. Yeah, it is exceptionally well executed by people.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it 20 minutes too long? Sure. You know, like.

[Andy Greenwald]

And a fun exercise that we don't need to do on this podcast is like, who other than Gosling could have pulled this off? Because it is a lot more.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's like a list of. It may be a list of one.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it may be a list of one, particularly because Lord and Miller tend towards comedy so strongly.

[Chris Ryan]

And he's the list of one is Bernthal. And. And.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, he's the other one. I thought you meant Gosling was not on the list.

[Chris Ryan]

It's actually. It was Bernthal's part. Let me tell you something, Big dog.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do it.

[Chris Ryan]

You got to make me smile. Matt Stuffy, let's go to our interview.

[Andy Greenwald]

You didn't know I was dealing with super Rock over here.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a chat. It's a conversation among friends with Mina Kimes. We're going to talk About Paradise Season 2, full spoilers. So watch that finale if you if you haven't already, and then get in. We also talked about Top Chef and the Philadelphia Eagles.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was really good.

[Chris Ryan]

Those are your three main topics.

[Andy Greenwald]

Those two things are my paradise.

[Chris Ryan]

So see you guys on Thursday. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a 2 percenter. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward/active cash terms Plywood this podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car shouldn't feel like a second job. It should feel easy. With Carvana, it is. Just visit Carvana.com Enter your license plate or VIN, answer a few quick questions and get an offer in minutes. Like what you see, we'll pick it up right from your door and hand you your check. No haggling, no hassle, no problem. Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step by step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way. Add expert assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. All right, we're joined by Mina Kimes, who is nice enough to come down and talk about paradise with us.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought we were talking about the reek woollen signing.

[Chris Ryan]

See, that's the thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you. Me too.

[Chris Ryan]

Started talking about Paradise. It's more animated than I've seen her in years of talking about.

[Mina Kimes]

Do you wish you could ask Alex to go back and not sign a Dory Jackson last year? Yeah. Well, that's.

[Andy Greenwald]

He didn't hurt us.

[Mina Kimes]

No, we're getting into how we do.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have other issues about last year, but we'll get to that.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it's also what we learned from paradise is the villain might be the hero, you know, so it could be that Sidney Brown was sent from the future to do nothing else to fix our cap space. We're not talking about the Eagles cap situation yet.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm sorry I derailed these.

[Chris Ryan]

We are talking about paradise, which ended its second season last night and has become. I don't know, it's like somewhere for me between a Sheridan show and a real. And like a. Not a real show, but like a show that I take deathly seriously.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a big boy.

[Chris Ryan]

So let me say this. Like, this was a great example of, I thought, paradise at its best. And also 25 minutes where I was just like, I can't remember who this person is or why they're in the prison downstairs. What's your relationship to the show and how did you feel about the finale?

[Mina Kimes]

I love the show. I think, to your point, though, it does occupy a weird space between. It's like caught much like Link, perhaps travels between timelines, caught between timelines. There's a dose of Prestige and a dose of hamminess that we don't really see mixed together a lot in television right now. Right now, I'm watching Paradise in the Pit, like a lot of people, and it's such a throwback combination.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Mina Kimes]

Like two shows that feel like they're from another time.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Mina Kimes]

But I really enjoy it. I also am extremely here for time travel shenanigans in all of my content. So when it started making that clear pivot this season, I was seated. I was ready to go on Reddit. I was ready to revisit a lot of my thoughts.

[Andy Greenwald]

All the old muscles woke up.

[Mina Kimes]

But I'm really enjoying it. I thought the finale was great. We knew it was kind of headed towards bringing everybody back together. And I wasn't sure how many of the questions about Alex would answer. And I think it answered Just enough to satisfy us while keep us wanting more.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Well, we found out that Alex is not, in fact, like, a little guy hanging out in a room somewhere, controlling the universe. It is, in fact, a supercomputer that is essentially was built by Dylan slash Link, you know, what, 10 years ago, I imagine. Although he doesn't know how old he is, where he's. And it seems unclear about his own past other than the fact that he doesn't know his parents.

[Andy Greenwald]

Andy, I. I want to. Before I have a take.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, let's hear it.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm going to unload it. But I did want to ask. We want to. I want to do a test of, like, your engagement with the show, because I learned that Alex was the wife of. In the. Previously on Paradise. Last night, that was when I learned that that's my level of attentiveness.

[Chris Ryan]

Alex is an interesting name. Not like, wow, Alex is the same name as Henry's late wife was afflicted with Huntington's. Okay, okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not here to lie to anybody anymore.

[Mina Kimes]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's just mask off.

[Mina Kimes]

All right? So you are not locked in. You're not like one of those people on Reddit who's like, if you combine the letters in Alex, they spell out the different names of the different characters from two seasons.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you know that X is a nickname for Xavier? I learned that last night, too. My take is, after watching this finale, that paradise is lost on 2.5 speed. It is paradise for the podcast generation because the fact you could look at this, you can engage with this show two ways. You could be like, I cannot believe that there was a scene on television in 2026 when a undergraduate interrupts his class to say, I invented the most powerful computer of all time and I'm carrying it with me in a briefcase, you boring old fuck. And that was just that one scene. The guy's like, cancel all my meetings. We must build this computer. Lost. That would have been a season.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if that's better. I feel like maybe this is what we.

[Mina Kimes]

Too much is happening.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I don't know if, like, drawing everything out the way we did 20 years ago or even 10 years ago or even five years ago was better. I would just say that this is a very aggressive choice to tell the story they want to tell in a very limited amount of time.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. There's, like, something about it that maybe lacks a little bit of mystery or mysticism. Not that there isn't anything confusing about paradise or that there isn't I suppose, any literary backbone to what it's doing? But Lost, you'd be watching it and there would be these biblical allusions and there would be. There was almost like a kind of unknowability to Lost until the very end, which is what people, I think reacted so negatively to. In some ways. I thought it was fine, bold. I think I'm on record being like, I don't. I was definitely not a pitchfork situation for me where I was like, this is awful at the gift of the show.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's because you weren't a talking head then, you know, you couldn't go on first date. Mina, tell him. You can't go on television.

[Mina Kimes]

When we podcasted about the Leftovers finale and you brought up all your feelings about it, do you have a loss? I don't. I was not a lost person, actually. Despite loving everything else that David Liloff's ever made, passionately, maybe more so than anything else in television. I mentioned Pluribus. It was interesting watching this after Pluribus, which is the maybe 0.5 speed version of the show. And I love dearly, but engaged with actually some of the same themes as paradise. And I feel like I hold space in my heart for shows at both of those paces. I do question how they're going to wrap this up in one more season, which we can get to later, but I didn't mind it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let's talk about the finale and maybe you guys can explain some things to me. Why did they have to blow up the bunker themselves? Essentially, I know that some people were against it and I know that luckily, the psychiatrist in charge of utopia, Dr. Abi.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, thanks, guys.

[Andy Greenwald]

After knifing someone to death in the shower. Although maybe not.

[Mina Kimes]

Clearly not.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe not.

[Chris Ryan]

Also, she can come back in some other capacity because, like, there's already somebody traveling back in time, which she also didn't kill her.

[Mina Kimes]

Okay, 100% she's not.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was just more. She needed a rest. And that was a great, great shower.

[Mina Kimes]

Anytime a psychotic killer is stabbed and they don't check the body, it's 99% chance she.

[Chris Ryan]

That was a big knife. Though. I think it's more likely that Jaime comes back a la Dylan.

[Andy Greenwald]

I believe deeply in the power of therapy, psychotherapy, but I think that she's a little bit a gout in front of her skis. You have to understand, running society and

[Chris Ryan]

murdering people, there's just not that many people in the cabinet anymore. You know what I mean? Like, you saw that control tower room when they. When she's like, do Exodus. It's like the woman there is also the woman who works at the diner. You know, like, there was that point.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was like, the fiction of the show. Maybe this is why they had to get out of the bunker, is that this is either the best and brightest or the most connected. And then you see the person whose job it is to type going like, yikes. Things seem to be going haywire in the executive suite. Type, type, type, type.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Why she get to go there?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't even remember, honestly, like, what the criteria was for the change in Colorado, though. Like, they. How did they pick the 2,500?

[Mina Kimes]

She helped her design the community. Like, pick all the.

[Andy Greenwald]

Dr. Turabi.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, the psychologist helped. She, like, did the psychological profiling.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm okay with her being there. Hold on. I'm fine with her being there.

[Chris Ryan]

I just feel like she's chief executive. It was a little bit surprising, the

[Mina Kimes]

chain of command after the pres. Both presidents went down and Sinatra was missing. Not something they planned for.

[Andy Greenwald]

Clearly they did not. And the entire plane full of Congress didn't make it. Right. See, I remember some aspects of the show.

[Mina Kimes]

The nuclear meltdown had been initiated at the same time as the lockdown. It was, like, two things in conflict, and there was no way to stop it.

[Andy Greenwald]

But it was on purpose to. Let's tear this whole thing down. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it was Cal's son did something with the German guy.

[Mina Kimes]

The meltdown. Yeah, because they wanted to force it to open the doors, so people had to leave.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Mina Kimes]

At the same time, people in the tower initiated a lockdown. So it was like a.

[Chris Ryan]

Because the militia was trying to get in.

[Andy Greenwald]

So it really remains chain of command issues, Just communication.

[Chris Ryan]

So what's your. Is your question, like, why did they start the meltdown in the first place?

[Andy Greenwald]

It just. The thing about the show that I really admire is that it is so confident with its core convictions and its story that things just keep happening, and there's rarely a moment to be like, why did this happen? But that's okay. It's okay. Look where we are now. So we're going to the Denver airport, a place that I would never go intentionally. So I really understand.

[Chris Ryan]

The airport's got some stuff to it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, it's got.

[Chris Ryan]

Read about it. No, there's supposed to be, like, an Illuminati headquarters underneath of the Denver.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, underneath. Underneath the Hell Horse.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, that's actually, like, there's a lot

[Chris Ryan]

of, like, art and, like, iconography in the Denver airport. That's like, very Illuminati coded, apparently.

[Andy Greenwald]

You guys have awesome Reddit.

[Chris Ryan]

You got to come on. Wait a second. With Jason Concepcion.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. Sorry. So it happens.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And we're. I don't know. I don't have any question anymore. We're cool with it. It's time to leave the bunker.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm starting with the end because I thought this was, like, an interesting place to put this show. You mentioned how are they going to tie this up in a season? I also am like, what happens now? Because for better or for worse. And even though she had some moments of, like, vulnerability, like Sinatra's been the antagonist for the first two seasons and now we apparently are going to be without her for the season three now on a Dan Fogelman show. As people have said, no one ever really dies, particularly this show. Yeah. And no one's ever really gone. So I'm sure we can still get some more Julianne Nicholson in flashback and she could become a time traveler herself. But I wonder whether or not you guys had any feelings about what a non Samantha, non Sinatra show looks like.

[Mina Kimes]

Well, I thought this finale episode, aside from all the science fiction answering the questions and the time travel which we can get to, one of the most abrupt turns, was just having her completely change her personality in the finale, which I. Part of me finds it a little sus. After she was such a big bad in season one and vaguely demonic and

[Chris Ryan]

took a gunshot to the sternum and then immediately was just like, unstable.

[Mina Kimes]

Pretty savage.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know a lot about stitches, although I do, but I feel like had you been shot here, stretching to rescue children from an elevator is a. You know, would present problems.

[Mina Kimes]

If you are to believe that her revelation. It could be two things. One, that her son is alive in some form, or her revelation. And I think this is core to the finale that Alix is working, that everything she did was in service of creating this technology. We could talk about what it did, and she finally had it affirmed to her that it was actually working. Suddenly she's free to not be a psychopath anymore.

[Andy Greenwald]

It took the edge off, right?

[Chris Ryan]

It took the edge off.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah. I think though you're right. Your question about what would the show look like without her going forward? It's unclear. Who then would be the antagonist right now?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, obviously there could still all these sort of dystopian shows. You could always find another band of. Of rebels in the next town over. Like, now these people are basically gonna be wandering around the west looking for a new home, I guess, which by

[Andy Greenwald]

the way seems fine. Everyone out in the world seems pretty kind.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You know what? That's the funny thing about this show is that for the most part, like, you don't really have, like, the Walking Dead. Like, we've decided to create a religion out of a baseball bat kind of things, you know, like, you may have quit Walking Dead by the time that happened.

[Andy Greenwald]

However, that's actually what you sounded like on Thursday during Philly's opening day. Like, my entire personality now is this team. And then it got real quiet when we lost the next two games. It's a long season. I really enjoyed the first half of the season more when it was just like, okay, now we're doing this. Yeah, that was fine. Like, let's do this. Let's show a different side to what has happened with the world. And then once everyone locked onto their character tracks to make the plot move, and once the show telescoped the distance by train from Atlanta to Colorado to about 48 hours, the menace of technically,

[Chris Ryan]

they didn't really have to stop anywhere else.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's true.

[Chris Ryan]

So I don't know how long train travel takes if you're never stopping.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think. I think what Alex did was go back in time and empower President Biden to really make cross country high speed rail a reality. And we are now benefiting from it.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe that was a passion of Cal. Also, a lot of rail travel just works in this show because this episode made it clear that Sinatra traveled by underground railcar 100 miles there and back all in one day.

[Chris Ryan]

And she's like, what's up? Something going on?

[Andy Greenwald]

He's like, oh, nice to see you. You're gonna die today. She took that well, I thought.

[Chris Ryan]

But yeah, I just think that, look, there's any number of people now I suppose are viable participants in this time travel scenario, and perhaps Marsden comes back in some capacity.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's never left. Oh, you mean like.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean he comes back as, like, as like an actual, like cow, but like, not the president. Just a guy who's welcome return, by

[Mina Kimes]

the way, for sure, when he was back.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's great.

[Mina Kimes]

It's interesting. I'm enjoying the new season of Jury Duty. But like, yeah, he is the missing.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he's so good. He's on Friends and Neighbors this season. It's like you get one season of Marsden.

[Mina Kimes]

Delightful.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mina Kimes]

Just the comic relief of him alone. You're talking about sort of next season and the loss of the antagonist. For me, I want to raise a question which is, I think for the first season, one of the reasons it worked so well was that the. The catastrophe felt realistic because it was a climate change. You know, we all know episode seven was this incredible episode because it felt

[Chris Ryan]

a little real and it was shot different and it was, I think, acted differently.

[Mina Kimes]

There's a lot about it. But the apocalypse is triggered by something that does feel sort of vaguely realistic now that the show is firmly entering this different part. It's a science fiction show, and it was arguably before, but it feels much more so now. Do you feel that the menace of the climate change and, like, the realism of, like, this could happen to us? Because that's, to me, what made the first season feel menacing and dangerous.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's really on the same thing. Cause I had hoped that maybe if something like this was going to be happening in the season finale, that it would mirror the seventh episode of the first season and that we would get this kind of, like, gripping, like, verite take on it. And it was very good, but it was, like, very shot on Fox lot kind of vibes. And I wonder now to your point about, like, how do they wrap this up? Like, are they gonna try and go back in time and solve climate change? Or are they, like, we're just trying to make the present better and learn

[Mina Kimes]

the lessons of, like, what is Alex actually doing exactly.

[Andy Greenwald]

Should we get in there? She does intentionally. I'm. We're almost there, I promise. She does say that we need to. I'm writing you a blank check because this is about our stopping it. Yeah, it's about climate catastrophe and all that. I think what we're seeing, though, is an interesting exercise in. I'm sorry to go back to. Not to the time travel, but the time literally in terms of the speed of the show. Resolutions on shows like this are rarely as satisfying as the delicious tension of the questioning. And it can be stretched too far, like with Lost, and people start to get impatient. But a show like this, that really puts down its marker that one of the central themes emotionally is gonna be Xavier looking for his wife. And these kids need their mom. And what happened to her. They really answered that. They identified her, they told her story, he found her quite easily, and then everything was fine. You know what I mean? They hopped on a train, they brought a baby, and now they're back with the kids.

[Mina Kimes]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think Dan Fogelman and his team are wrong that actually seeing Presley hug her mom does not need to be like, we don't need to be held at tenterhooks. For that. That doesn't need to be delayed. It's a nice moment, but it's okay. That's resolved. And now we're onto the next thing. And once you go into that, let's resolve things. Let's tap everything on the head and push it down. That can be less satisfying than we think it might be.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Everything is now locked into this. The point of the show is not to have these interesting questions about climate or who we are or who we are to each other. It's about what's under the Denver airport and what's it gonna say?

[Mina Kimes]

I think the things that were most interesting about this particular season and the best episodes were a little bit removed from those core questions, which were the two bunker episodes. The one with Shailene Woodley where she's holed up in Graceland, and then the one I thought the mailman. The mailman episode before they get, you know, where they're in the bunker and they have to rebuild society. Those, to me, were the best episodes of the entire season because in the first episode, you know, wrestled with climate change and, like, made us feel that. Those brought me back to the pandemic, those two episodes, and I felt like, oh, like, wow, I'm really feeling this, and I'm so tense watching these. Whereas the actual questions of the season don't quite carry that way. I like them because I love sci fi and time travel and stuff, but they don't have the same impact.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk about the sci fi part then.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So Alex has been teased over the course of the season, and we got some glimpses that. First off, obviously, we know that. We knew that Dylan was the kid who Billy doesn't kill because Henry begs him. Like, he's just like, I think you're here for a reason.

[Mina Kimes]

Nosebleed.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, your nosebleed. Here's a napkin for your nosebleed. But, like, in a minute, this kid's gonna walk through the door and please spare his life, and he does. Alex is mentioned multiple times. When Link is talking to Geiger about killing Alex, he makes it sound like a person. It doesn't seem like that's going to be the case. And then that's proved correctly. Correct. When we find out Alex is, in fact, a supercomputer that has been manipulating time. I think is, like, the best explanation we've gotten of it, or we haven't really gotten a deep explanation as to, like, what Alex can do.

[Mina Kimes]

We've seen some things.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, we've seen that, like, Alex We've seen that Dylan is at once probably Samantha's child, but also exists in a world as a guy in his early 20s who has been to Caltech. Right. But was also working at rei. So do you think there are multiple Dylans and links? Like, what do you think is going on now?

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah. All right, so let's go.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's go.

[Mina Kimes]

All right, so here's what we know Alex can do, right? We know Alex can predict. We see that at the beginning of this episode. Starts off by saying, which, by the way, is kind of realistic with AI and quantum computing, that a computer would be able to run a bunch of simulations and tell you things that are going to happen in the future, et cetera. We also know that Alex can hop on AIM Instant messenger and hit up the past. We see that in the Jane episode. So those are the two things we've seen that it can do. And Sinatra is still learning at the beginning of this episode. He tells her this is the first time she knows that it can do these things. She mentions that she's seen what she believes to be an anomaly. We also know that Alex can predict the future because in the flashback at the beginning of this episode, it's why the scientist wants to shut it down. Right? He's like, this is too much.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Mina Kimes]

So I think with regards to how much it can actually affect time, what's still unclear is whether or not Alex is setting in motion some of these coincidences or precipitating events in the past that alter either create multiple timelines, which is, you know, one of the solutions to the closed loop paradox is that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just look right at me when you

[Chris Ryan]

say it, it's working,

[Mina Kimes]

or whether or not it's just, like, little tweaks in the existing timeline. Dylan, to me, is the core question, like, like you said, is this the same? How would Sinatra be meeting her son after seeing him die? How? That's what's still unclear.

[Andy Greenwald]

So when she says, we get the bit of dialogue that's muffled the first time through. In the end, when we see what Sinatra says to Xavier.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it's, I need you to do this. Why would I do that? I believe you already did.

[Chris Ryan]

And gives him the card that says User X.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

So is the goal. You know what? I don't know why I'm looking at you. Is the goal to reboot reality so this never happens?

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or.

[Mina Kimes]

Well, then you're getting a real closed loop.

[Chris Ryan]

So here's the other thing that I. I need. I'm trying to figure out like, the Jane thing was so anticlimactic with Tarabi, like getting the jump on her, killing her. Maybe in the shower.

[Mina Kimes]

Finish the job.

[Chris Ryan]

She seems to be someone that Alex has been hunting through time.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, what is. What is the message?

[Mina Kimes]

She can be stopped.

[Chris Ryan]

She can be stopped. Why does she need to be stopped? And what does she do?

[Mina Kimes]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Eventually that needs to be undone. Right. Like, so is Jane someone who will come back the same way Dylan has come back, or Link has come back in different forms? And would she kill Xavier? Would she kill Dylan? Like, is the third season? Because if that's the case, I think that is interesting. But I hope that the character that comes back as Jane, like, the actor. The actor, but like the character. I could use a couple of wrinkles.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Other than I play we and kill people. Like, I don't.

[Mina Kimes]

Ticking the box. Like, come on, we're really hitting all the female serial killer hits.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know. At least Link didn't make any pop culture references this episode, which I appreciate. Yeah, that was a nice break.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he had a nuclear meltdown on his hands.

[Andy Greenwald]

True. And new fatherhood.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Literally a lot on his plate. I can't believe I'm doing this so soon after just absolutely bodying Kris with his love of Lord of the Rings. But I must say, a hallmark of the Legend of Zelda games.

[Mina Kimes]

Yes. Ocarina of Time.

[Chris Ryan]

But it's not an accident that he's lame.

[Mina Kimes]

Link for a reason.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that there have been many, many games, but very few of them are sequels. It's just like, well, we're back in this world and there's always a Link and there's always a Zelda and there's always a bad guy. And now it looks like this. Now you become friends with fish people, and now maybe there's a Jane, and now there isn't a Jane or Jane. Is this now an idea, not a person. So is that where we're headed?

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah. I think Link is the most important character in the show now. Me too. And I think if we're to believe that Alex is a computer that's been tasked. Crucially, we don't know if Sinatra programmed or whatever Alex to stop the first climate change event somehow or to stop the second one that we know is coming. Because you remember the original Dr. Luge, I think his name was told her. And then you think it's over. And then the world heats up again. And it's after she gets that knowledge that she goes and tries to do the bigger thing, buy out the company.

[Chris Ryan]

The other thing is, is that I don't know that she didn't invent Alex to get Dylan back.

[Mina Kimes]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. Like. Or if that was gonna be like, hopefully I can use a little bit of this computing power. Like, I'll just build two or three data centers to work on.

[Mina Kimes]

So we know that Alex is being programmed or whatever to do one of these two things. I think everything that has happened that I believe Alex has initiated has been oriented towards keeping Link alive, including the whole baby plotline. What is this baby here? Why did Xavier go to Atlanta? Why did he bring the baby back? All of it is in this moment, in this finale episode when they meet for the first time and the visions go crazy. He is altering the path again so that Link doesn't destroy Alex. So he leaves to go see his baby. It's crucial that the baby comes back to the bunker as a precipitator.

[Chris Ryan]

Meets him right at that moment.

[Mina Kimes]

Exactly at that moment. And then he has, like, the vision of, like, Link in the tunnel, which I believe would have been like the alternate timeline had he not arrived with the baby.

[Andy Greenwald]

Here's a baby question.

[Mina Kimes]

Everybody's nose, please.

[Andy Greenwald]

I found it odd that a man meets his newborn baby and is like, I shall name this baby for a woman I had sex with once.

[Chris Ryan]

The mother of the child.

[Andy Greenwald]

That also.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Unless. Because everything on the show is pretty straightforward.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is this Annie again?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is he the father of, like, an immaculate. So it really is just, like, in honor of.

[Chris Ryan]

It's in honor of Annie. But I think, Shit.

[Mina Kimes]

There's a little bit of an immaculate conception.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. It is a little bit of, like. Like, this is Jesus's baby Link Jesus. Yeah. The Scorsese version of Jesus.

[Mina Kimes]

If you really think about why did Xavier go to Atlanta? Why did they go through all of this? Why did he find that baby? Why did he weirdly keep the baby with him? Through the lens of. Everything that happens in the show is about Alex trying to manipulate people's decisions or time to get Link to not destroy him. I guess we also don't know why Link wants to destroy Alex, but that's a whole other thing.

[Chris Ryan]

How many nosebleeders do we have?

[Mina Kimes]

Great question.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's really good question.

[Chris Ryan]

Dylan and Xavier, did Jane ever get nosebleeds?

[Mina Kimes]

No. But Billy did.

[Chris Ryan]

Billy got nosebleed.

[Mina Kimes]

Billy did. Because my homie the scientist was like, don't kill that guy. Sees him. Nosebleeds.

[Andy Greenwald]

So do nosebleeds happen when they.

[Mina Kimes]

Alex has interfered.

[Andy Greenwald]

When they've changed the Timeline.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, I think so.

[Chris Ryan]

I think there were like, basically like, wow.

[Andy Greenwald]

So my childhood was his wife with timeline aberrations.

[Chris Ryan]

But do you remember, like, the Hayden Christensen movie where he's like, jumping through time jumpers?

[Andy Greenwald]

Revenge of the Sith. That.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that those. There are a couple of characters who are, like, moving through these timelines.

[Mina Kimes]

You think so? So you think Link is crossing timelines as a. Yeah, I mean, that what happened. What is. How is he here? Is also.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's also like, why does Dylan. If Dylan is a kid who dies, why does the kid who walks into that room like, I'm the biggest computer expert, and then also several years later is like, I'm just working in an rei.

[Mina Kimes]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, like, are you the kind of.

[Mina Kimes]

Well, he dropped out of college, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Mina Kimes]

So that was.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, so there's not three.

[Mina Kimes]

What we don't know is why do Dylan and Sinatra not know each other? Right. Because if he was saved in some

[Andy Greenwald]

way, he would have known.

[Chris Ryan]

How he would have known.

[Mina Kimes]

Separated from each other. That's one of the core questions.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

But, like, for all we know, the Dylan who's like, been re. Like, there's a Dylan that's like, reborn, basically, to your anti point, like, maybe there are characters who are, like, born again. And the fact that Alex is going back to Jane's birth to be like, do something about this. And everybody is just like, you're freaking me out. Like, Right. Like that. That would suggest that maybe there's, like, cycles of life that go through these particular alternatives. Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I will say from a broad television perspective, I am more bullish on the third season because I do think that the bunker was. We're done.

[Chris Ryan]

I agree.

[Andy Greenwald]

We were done there.

[Chris Ryan]

Stick to this it's three seasons and out thing.

[Andy Greenwald]

It seems.

[Chris Ryan]

It seems like they are.

[Andy Greenwald]

Seems like they are.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Unless they do, like, Legend of Zelda style and then there's like, Paradise Skyward Sword, you know, and it's like a whole.

[Mina Kimes]

What is the. Other than the names of basic characters on this show and things that happen? What is the biggest question that you have that you want solved in the final season?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, okay, well, I'll answer that. But first, I want. No, the biggest thing that I want

[Mina Kimes]

solved or answered for you or clarified.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is why my engagement with the show, I think is successful is because profoundly, I don't think I care. Yeah, I enjoy its mania.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I enjoy some of the actors. I have liked the show best when it has done one half of the Lost Sandwich, which is just like the emotional backstory of the. The backstory of these characters contain the hidden truths of their current whatever. And we will explore those stories, and we will.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a sturdy ship.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And I. And. And ultimately, like, Sterling Brown is like, I will find my wife. You know, like, that is a good, compelling show.

[Chris Ryan]

I love it. When I.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Sinatra stuff, I have. I've never taken. I've never even become interested enough in what she is or what she's doing to pay attention.

[Chris Ryan]

But she's very, like, as a performer. So compelling that you're like, I'm engaged. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But in one of the Alex Alt histories, do you think Sandra Houler plays that part? I just saw Hail Mary and I was like, that's a Sinatra I would follow.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. But I don't know if that's like, somebody ever. Like, everybody's just like this. I'm really fired up to work for this lady. I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Germans are really setting a good example these days.

[Chris Ryan]

I did want to ask about this, the other paradise, which is all the time when you're watching, like, the San Antonio spurs, and then all of a sudden Wemby leaves the floor and you're like, you know, okay, and there are some good players, sure, but it's not Wemby. And that's how I sometimes feel when either Sterling K. Brown or Joanne Nicholson's not on the screen. Yes. Specifically the teens.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, my God.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. The New Mutants.

[Andy Greenwald]

We have to do something about the kids. Marty.

[Mina Kimes]

Mercifully somewhat marginalized in this episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, here's my big worry for season three.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, no.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that Cal's son? Cal's son, some who we have not really quite addressed yet. Initiates a nuclear meltdown.

[Andy Greenwald]

He did do that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, he did do that. And I don't know if he's going to pay the piper for that or anyone's going to get to the bottom of that, or if he's going to be like, look, there was only one way to open the doors, but I don't know that I find them to be the most compelling group of characters.

[Andy Greenwald]

There was a moment in this episode when. What's her name? Nicole. The Secret Service agent?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Agent Robinson.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm sorry. I call her Nicole. It's been two seasons when she is suddenly quite injured, and she has to. People always love to say, go on without me in hallways where gas is leaking from places. And she's like, I loved your father. Sure.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

We all do. I need you to become the man he always believed you to. Be. I won't let you die here with me.

[Chris Ryan]

But I will mostly drink whiskey and

[Andy Greenwald]

make wisecracks in that moment when it did appear that Agent Robinson was no longer going to be with us in the present tense.

[Mina Kimes]

She's fine, though.

[Andy Greenwald]

Chris Marshall, the actor.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Should have a phone call with her team because she got up to a regular this season, and she was like, I can't wait to come back.

[Chris Ryan]

And she's in, like, four Seasons.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have so much to do. And they're like, our vision for you this season is to. We have a tank top, and you're gonna go into the prison colony and hang out with some wooden teenagers. Oh, and a German.

[Mina Kimes]

It didn't help that the prison colony was, like, staged, like a theatrical production of, like, the glass managers. Like, they were, like, literally just in a weird little dark yard, like, stream room. Yeah. And it never felt dangerous, and nothing ever really happened.

[Andy Greenwald]

Silo meets Schmigadoo.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, this is the thing is, like, they also have three teens. And I understand they're, like, completely cut off from, like, cultural influences and stuff

[Andy Greenwald]

like that, but where are you going with this?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, they're. They're just vanilla. They're like, I am a young person. They're not like, there's not, like, one who's like, I have a drinking problem.

[Mina Kimes]

You had me hacked into the entire mainframe.

[Chris Ryan]

Is one's like an emerging political leader who's, like, a podcaster in the manosphere and has, like, people gathering in town hall to be like, this guy's really speaking to us.

[Mina Kimes]

I think it's telling that the only scene that I enjoyed with the Teens all season long was when Presley and Cal's son, reunited, started making out, and Xavier was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Too long. That was the only point where I laughed all season in the Teens.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because the other thing that we. We hear.

[Mina Kimes]

Presley. Yeah, Presley.

[Andy Greenwald]

We know this, but we were just reminded of it at the Oscars. Like, Sterling Brown is funny, super funny, and he can. And I know that the part doesn't ask for a lot of humor, but when he plays the other things that he can play again when the show has room for it. That is what you sacrifice when you are just a freight train on the paradise timetable going towards the finale.

[Mina Kimes]

He doesn't get a second to rest,

[Chris Ryan]

now that I'm thinking about it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, season one started with him jogging, and season two ends with him running. And, you know, there's a nice little scenario.

[Chris Ryan]

The show's success, I think, is rooted in the Fact that it's makes you think something crazy is happening. While the show itself is incredibly conservative. Like something wilder than the world ending would be Sterling K. Brown, years separated from Terry. Like falls in love out on the road or something like that. You know, like that there would be something different going on. And like, instead it's like, nope, I found Terry, Everything's fine, our kids are fine. We got out of the nuclear explosion.

[Mina Kimes]

Well, well, well. Terry doesn't know about the shower sex scene.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's right. Well, first of all, that's the real crime scene. The real crime scene is Dr. Turabi's shower. That's where it all happens. Can we just discuss one last major point that really, really rankles me? The song Another Day in Paradise by Phil Collins from his seminal album but Seriously is an absolutely ham fisted song about the perils of homelessness. This show deeply wants us to believe.

[Chris Ryan]

Are these people not homeless?

[Mina Kimes]

Right. Yeah. They're basically camping at the end. Which by the way, they didn't plan for that at all. Like they're just. They're just watching trailers, just chilling.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not that. Can we talk?

[Mina Kimes]

It's like Griffith park out there.

[Andy Greenwald]

There was not one.

[Chris Ryan]

Clearly. Agora Hills. It's Colorado, I think by train we

[Andy Greenwald]

could make it to the Calabasas Savary by sunset. I. There were not one. Two electric SUVs fleeing the bunker filled with nothing but gold lamps.

[Mina Kimes]

Didn't notice that.

[Chris Ryan]

I did not notice that.

[Andy Greenwald]

The second one.

[Mina Kimes]

That's the kind of thing you notice about the character's name. That is why you're.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm a guy. What can I say?

[Andy Greenwald]

It was the second one that Tarabi stopped and said, you greedy bastards. And she reached in and she pulled out all. All the lamps and put in a man on crutches.

[Mina Kimes]

Lamps would be useful though, in a post apocalypse.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's no electric grid. You've been in Graceland, they have beans,

[Mina Kimes]

they have a train.

[Chris Ryan]

Yet Torabi should be actually just like. Can we unpack why you stole the

[Andy Greenwald]

lamps and then also unpack the lamps?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, and then I'll stab you in the kidney with the long knife. Well, okay. That's really all I had about this episode and the next season.

[Andy Greenwald]

What are you looking forward to?

[Mina Kimes]

You know, I like the time travel stuff and the questions and the loop. I love Looper. It's one of my favorite movies. So I'm here for how do you solve these paradoxes that we've been discussing? But they need to find a way to create the menace that is in the first season with the climate change stuff. I think in the second season they did it with the bunker episodes. They really. I was like, ooh, this is like the Graceland episode was probably the most dangerous.

[Chris Ryan]

That was really cool.

[Mina Kimes]

So how do you create stakes and danger beyond just telling us the stakes of, like, how do we prevent another climate change crisis? Or how do we figure out who's traveling? No, no. In the season, you gotta find ways, whether it's a band of militia or marauders or whatever. And then I would like to see them slow it down again for stealing K. Brown. Cause he's so good in those. And I think in the Graceland episode he got some moments like that. But then he was just so, like you said, so busy these final few episodes, we didn't get that much with him. And I find him to be such a compelling actor.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's a really good point because there is no established antagonist for season three unless we are digging in the vaults and bringing people back.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, that's what I was gonna say is that when the season started, I was like, shailene Woodley's really good. You know, like, she's a good actress. And I was like, I thought it was a very effective use of someone who's probably not like, yes, I have seven months to shoot Paradise. Like, no problem. Like, she was really good in the limited amount of time she was on screen. The show needs one more person, especially if Julianne Nicholson is not going to be in the show as like a current. So it needs.

[Andy Greenwald]

We should bring more. We should bring more. This is very. This is a Bill ism. They need one more. They're one guard away. One move away. Yeah, but as opposed to the Too many guys.

[Mina Kimes]

I was going to say, yeah, we're looking at a desk now and we've got Sterling K. Brown sitting there getting like, did we really want to add another analyst to the desk?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I mean, it's, you know, we know what. We are fans of a team that are perhaps top heavy, you know, but like, I think that they could use like Joel Kinnaman as the manifestation of Alex. You know what I mean?

[Andy Greenwald]

Or something.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, like, they need something that's like another chapter.

[Mina Kimes]

I think season three is going to be about whether. Yeah, all respect, not my favorite episode. Season three is gonna answer the question, is Alex good or bad? We don't actually know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right.

[Mina Kimes]

Because we know Link wants to destroy it. We know we like, is Alex actually trying to solve climate change and save the Earth? Or did Alex cause this all to begin with is going to be the core.

[Andy Greenwald]

Does Alex want Link to destroy it ultimately, once it's done? Because then it has really restarted the world.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I gotcha. If I had to vote for one of those outcomes, it's not going to be that. AI was. Was. Was a great personal assistant.

[Andy Greenwald]

Was looking out for us.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I don't imagine that that is going to be the solution. I think there will be a contingent of people who are like, I don't want to go back. Like, this is working for me, you know, like, this world is now better, you know?

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I don't know. I don't know where I land on whether Alex has caused this or is trying to solve it. Because Samantha's like, reasons for using Alex the way she does are still a mystery.

[Mina Kimes]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

As are Dylan's desire. It's Dylan's desire to destroy it. I guess you could say he knows something about what Henry knew about, like, why he was like, we have to turn this thing off.

[Mina Kimes]

See, I'm really hoping that they pull it off. They destroy it. Paradise. The show never happened. And we end with an alternate timeline of President Cal. President Cal just doing a bracket, you know, on TV or something, which I would love to watch.

[Chris Ryan]

He's hugging John Caliperi, still coaching Kentucky.

[Mina Kimes]

You know, in the alternate timeline, Kentucky's, like, winning the championship.

[Chris Ryan]

Acuff went to Kentucky. Yeah. Do you.

[Andy Greenwald]

You are so onto something. A weekly show in which that guy is president. Love. It would do crazy numbers. It would crush the budget.

[Chris Ryan]

Wouldn't even have to be that big, functional, alcoholic Kentucky.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. It would just be like, this is what he gets up to in between drinking, watching sports, and caring about.

[Chris Ryan]

Let me tell you something. Putin. Malik Monk once scored 43 points against UConn.

[Mina Kimes]

How much did you love his extended monologue on the fall of empires with different sports?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Do you want to do a couple minutes on Top Chef before we let you go?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Where are you at with it?

[Mina Kimes]

Caught up.

[Chris Ryan]

She's caught up.

[Mina Kimes]

Caught up. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And so if you're not caught up on Top Chef, but the next episode is tomorrow night, so. Or tonight.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think it's tonight on Bravo, tomorrow on Peacock. We're filming on.

[Mina Kimes]

You guys do Top Chef pretty much every week.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this season has really reignited

[Andy Greenwald]

something in us, we feel.

[Mina Kimes]

Has it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. So our take is that, if I may.

[Mina Kimes]

No, no.

[Andy Greenwald]

You can be that Alex has fixed Top Chef and that the show has its mojo back, and not just necessarily in terms of the cast of the Season. But that production wise and editorially, they have reinvigorated themselves. And they are framing, like, after that first episode with a Kristen helping Nana through the panic attack, I felt like they were taking some British baking show. Congratulations, by the way. That handshake that you got has been shown in my home to my children. It's one of the most impressive things they've ever seen.

[Mina Kimes]

Thank you. I lost. For those who didn't watch, some are saying it was the worst snubbing.

[Chris Ryan]

Who's saying that?

[Mina Kimes]

People.

[Andy Greenwald]

People have come up to me saying that with tears in their eyes.

[Mina Kimes]

I saw Von Miller after at the combine, he beat me, and first thing he said to me was, are you still mad at me? You still bitter?

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, these guys are really competitive.

[Mina Kimes]

I mean, you can go look up our final cookie cakes and be the judge for yourself.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I thought that some of that vibe of, like, editorially, like, who the judges are in relation to the contestants has been shifted slightly. And I thought just like the challenges that they throwing them into, that lack of hand holding. Kristen's emergence in general as an exceptional host, I thought has elevated the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And I think that they've done. While I do not envy them cooking outdoors in Carolina in what seems like a summer climate, I felt like in the past few seasons, I was like, I have no idea what city this is taking place in or what feels like you guys are either in the studio or at Whole Foods and then like, at a sports bar, you know? But this feels very like they're doing stuff like with the sweet potato challenge, the pepper challenge, where I'm like, this really feels regional. This is cool.

[Mina Kimes]

I think they've also really cast this season well with the chefs. It almost feels like the last couple seasons, which I, you know, I love Chuck, Tristan the goat. Not the goat, but one of the. He's already like a pantheon winner for me. But it feels like this season's a little sloppier. Yeah, I like that. There's some obvious front runners. You know, they're pretty clear. Your Lawrence's, your Rodas, your Anthony's. But they've got some chefs who are legitimately, like, I'm kind of rooting against.

[Chris Ryan]

The twins are like, good tv. You know, they're busting each other's chops much more openly than I think usually the contestants would good tv, but I

[Mina Kimes]

need them separated immediately. I can't have these two twins together.

[Chris Ryan]

It's interesting because then we also have the partners.

[Andy Greenwald]

What do we think about this couple?

[Mina Kimes]

Couple that Dynamic. It seems pretty clear from the jump that the woman is kind of dragging the husband or that the woman was the better chef, but she obviously, now

[Chris Ryan]

she only has one arm.

[Mina Kimes]

One arm, which is brutal.

[Chris Ryan]

She has the arm.

[Mina Kimes]

By the way, we talked about this walking in here, I was very worried that they would keep Nana, who. I'm sure she's a lovely chef and a lovely person, and her food is great. I could not watch another episode of Top Chef with this woman on my tv.

[Chris Ryan]

It was gonna have to be one. It was either she was gonna have to go home or she was gonna have to, like, flip a switch and turn into, like. Like. Like, one of the great chefs of all time. Like, and it was. It was just tough. I thought that the way, like, you said, like, it was in a little bit of an anticlimactic episode, but I think they made the most of it.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was an opportunity to really be

[Chris Ryan]

like, we're gonna interrogate, like, how bad you guys screwed this up. And I wonder if it had been tighter, if they would have been a little nicer about the cooking. But since they all knew from the first moment that Nana's stuff got to this table, they're like, well, she's going home, so let's really push them.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think they do things with. I believe they historically have done a little play with time. I know that probably is maybe why you like the show in that there's a version of that episode in which they rework it so Nana goes last or goes later or de Emphasize the early ones so that we could feel more tension until it's here. Until that may not. It may have been impossible due to the edit, but she was one of the first chefs to go in this third episode, and I thought that they leaned into it in a way that made it more interesting. Everybody was bad. Everybody was bad. Even the winning chefs didn't do a great, great job with this.

[Chris Ryan]

They focused on Tom being like, I thought this was quite good. Like, her, like, little spoonful of onion jam was good, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, but I mean, like, even the winners of this challenge, they're fine.

[Mina Kimes]

I like Angry Tom, too, which is, I think, important because it makes rewarding Tom feel like it's earned. Like, when he's like, this is awesome.

[Andy Greenwald]

More Paul Hollywood.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

Nana's in Last Chance Kitchen.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, they're starting it now.

[Andy Greenwald]

They're starting it this week. All right, so what else are we watching, Nina, what else? You can get your takes off.

[Mina Kimes]

This is. Yeah. So I mentioned I've been Podcasting about paradise. We're flipping to the boys. Do you guys do the boys?

[Chris Ryan]

Andy does. I love the boys.

[Andy Greenwald]

The boy.

[Chris Ryan]

I enjoyed my time with the boys, but it's not something I kept up with.

[Mina Kimes]

By the way, my co host, David Dennis Jr. Our podcast is called Viewer Discretion. If you guys like the boys, go check it out. Mostly known for our Love is Blind coverage that brings a different. He was a thought that's been in my head this whole time is he said, when Sterling Brown finally gets to Alex, the only thing he's gonna do is tell him to delete the shower scene so Terry never finds out.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's a more interesting show. Good for him.

[Mina Kimes]

Plot of season 3, go check it out. But I'm watching the Pit. As I mentioned, we're about two thirds through Jury Duty Company, which I feel like Jury Duty. You watch it and you're like, wow. The amazing thing is that they pulled off the ruse again. To me, the most amazing thing is that they're finding the most wholesome men in America. Like, where are they finding these guys?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. These. The two guys who are just like. Seems cool. Okay.

[Mina Kimes]

And it is literally the secret sauce of the show. Right. Is that they find these guys. I shot something with Ronald Gladden. It was like a pilot for a game show. Truly the nicest man. The first. Sorry, the nicest man I've ever met in my life.

[Andy Greenwald]

These people who cast the Jury Duty should cast reality shows, right? Like, to give good candidates a chance.

[Chris Ryan]

Nobody wants to watch reality shows with a bunch of good guys.

[Mina Kimes]

You need one good guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

President Cal's America. We do. There's less conflict.

[Chris Ryan]

So much love is blind. With a bunch of guys who are like, I'm nice.

[Andy Greenwald]

What? A show called Love is Good. That's a million dollar idea. Okay, sorry. A hundred million dollar idea.

[Mina Kimes]

Are Jury Duty and Top Chef the only shows on television that make you feel good about humanity?

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, I watch Neighbors and so, yes, I think the answer is yes, good about humanity.

[Chris Ryan]

The pip makes me actually feel better.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The Pit makes me feel great.

[Mina Kimes]

I'm at reality shows.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, for as beleaguered as the staffing, the staff of the hospital is, it's like, we're not so different. We're all just blood and bones, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that actually a perla monologue that you delivered to camera this week?

[Mina Kimes]

It reminds us that I always watch a show separately from my husband while I'm running. And I'm almost done with Vladimir, which is the Netflix show.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't check it out.

[Mina Kimes]

Which, you know, we talk about paradise being unrealistic. Asks you to believe that Rachel Weiss isn't the most beautiful woman on Earth, which makes it a little bit.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm out.

[Mina Kimes]

Hard to watch, but no, I'm enjoying that.

[Chris Ryan]

Can you do horror at all?

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, I really like TV horror.

[Chris Ryan]

I think something very bad is going

[Andy Greenwald]

to happen because we are also doing time travel in this podcast and we haven't recorded the part the people listening have already heard. I'm debuting this for you, even though I'm going to say it earlier to Chris, which is definitely. Watch the first 15 minutes of very Bad. What is it called? Something bad is going to happen. The first 15 minutes is really good. Then you should stop.

[Mina Kimes]

Does it get gross after that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, then it gets like. Then it becomes a horror thing.

[Mina Kimes]

I already read the Wikipedia for it, so I know.

[Chris Ryan]

I was reading it. I haven't finished yet.

[Mina Kimes]

I do that.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, you do do that?

[Mina Kimes]

Well, yeah, for like. Gross. Gross.

[Andy Greenwald]

Speaking of reality, this is now officially. Can this be the Watch After Dark part for this episode?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. Wait, can we get some green and white light? Because I know that that's what you're gonna ask about.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just want. I didn't want to give you enough time to prepare. I wanted to get, like, the honest thing. I wanted to know.

[Chris Ryan]

She's always prepared for the.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, I was gonna say you're so prepared. Literally is my job.

[Chris Ryan]

She has no computer.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know.

[Chris Ryan]

She knows every character I'm playing.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. I just want. Everyone's like Sean Manion. Everybody really likes him.

[Chris Ryan]

That's the offensive coordinator for the Eagles.

[Andy Greenwald]

Everyone who stays listening. This part knows.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, you want me.

[Andy Greenwald]

She's getting nosebleed.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Mina Kimes]

This is a moment Alex has been sent back in time to give me. Force me to give different answers, to

[Andy Greenwald]

erase the Hitch roots from our playbook.

[Mina Kimes]

You want to ask about Manion, About Jalen, hurts. About whether you're going to trade A.J. brown? What are we. What are we?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think the aj. The AJ thing seems baked in. It's a bummer. I was very much. I was staking out my opinion.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh. Because.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay. Because my take officially, and by officially, I mean I texted SHIELD Kabadia this. I didn't think he was getting traded, but now it just seems too baked in. I'm starting to.

[Mina Kimes]

Well, the comp required for them to actually do it is a little bit prohibitive for. I mean, it's gotta be a first or bust. Especially after DJ Moore got Traded for a second, so. But the issue is, it's, as you I'm sure know, the only way they can do it is as a post June 1st trade. So. And this is a team that's in after the drafts is a team that is competitive this year. So I think it. It has to be a really good pick.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you think this is a standoff between Howie Roseman and the Patriots or do you think something is already hand shaky, we're gonna get this done after June 1st?

[Mina Kimes]

I genuinely don't know. I mean, Howie usually comes out on top in these deals. So, like, I think keep saying stuff like that.

[Andy Greenwald]

That makes me feel good. I only wanna be a front.

[Chris Ryan]

It's almost impossible to talk to him about this stuff for me because he operates from a position of like, Howie has never made a mistake and Howie has like the most.

[Mina Kimes]

I mean, Jahan Dotson exists.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jalen Rager exists.

[Chris Ryan]

A while since you've invoked that name like, you are like, I know because he picks a bunch of dudes.

[Mina Kimes]

The last few years, been trading for guys as opposed to primarily trading away guys.

[Andy Greenwald]

And when he's traded away guys, though, it's gone well.

[Mina Kimes]

The one that I'm watching is Tanner McKee. He's on the move.

[Chris Ryan]

My take on this is that I

[Andy Greenwald]

can't pay your third string.

[Chris Ryan]

Not so secretly in a soft rebuild right now.

[Mina Kimes]

Ooh.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And I have only modest expectations for this team next season. I think it's last Fangio year.

[Mina Kimes]

See soft rebuild. Another way of thinking about that, I talk about this all the time, is when a team much like paradise has two timelines at the same time. So you've got the win now timeline and then you have the like, future timeline and you start to slowly merge them.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that worked in Golden State.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel like that's. I think if I were to imagine what hiroseman's doing, I think he's thinking about like two years from now rather than right now. Like what his.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think he is Alex. I think he's always is AJ Brown

[Mina Kimes]

link in this analogy. Because you're keeping him, but you're trading him. But you want to keep him on the team.

[Andy Greenwald]

Good.

[Mina Kimes]

You don't the roster really good.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, the roster's still really good.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah. We just did the. On my main show, the mini Khan show, we did the team needs podcast and when I went through Philadelphia, I was like wide receiver three.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mina Kimes]

You really don't have a lot of needs on that. The edge is the need.

[Chris Ryan]

But we'll see and no Stalin. No.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, like, yeah. What is your official take on the

[Mina Kimes]

retirement of just outland.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Stoutland retirement, but also the Manion. And, like, can they really do this? Can you do the surgery on a patient while the patient is trying to say his name?

[Chris Ryan]

Can Jaylen run a sophisticated McVeigh office?

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm not worried about Jalen. I'm worried about doing it under Syria.

[Mina Kimes]

He's like, a big.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm a big Jalen.

[Mina Kimes]

Protect Jaylen at all costs. Yes. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm like, Lane Johnson. That's my job.

[Mina Kimes]

Classic wit collar over here.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's in Columbia getting his blood changed. Thank you. That's what I would do.

[Mina Kimes]

I think that Jalen hurts is a quarterback who can succeed with a good run game. Russell Wilson was like this a lot. They're very similar because he doesn't like to throw over the middle of the field. Y' all know this. So he really needs those single high coverages that you get by running the ball well. So the question to me is whether not Whether or not Hertz can change, but whether the run game can be improved. And I've heard a lot of good people in Green Bay really liked Sean Manion.

[Andy Greenwald]

See?

[Mina Kimes]

Really Rave Revised.

[Chris Ryan]

There's no doubt about Shawn Manion. I've just seen a couple of OCs now, and we wind up running the same stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Here's the thing that's interesting, that I find interesting about our dynamic is that during the off season, I am so positive, and he is very like, well, you know these things. You never. And then when we get into the actual season, I am miserable and incredibly negative the entire time.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, wait, no. Sports fans are like that. That's.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're so with him. I don't mean me.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, no. I'm a terrible cliche. I'm not. I'm not special. I'm saying that we swing.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because you are more optimistic during the season and more pessimistic during the offseason.

[Chris Ryan]

I just like watching football, so I don't want to spend my entire time being like, this sucks. And it's like, we could be way worse. You know what I mean? Like, in some ways, sometimes I'm like, I would prefer, like, an 11 and 6, 10, seven season rather than like, the Eagles have won nine and 10 in a row.

[Mina Kimes]

You never want the perfect place to be as a fan is when you're slightly exceeding expectations. You never want to be the favorite. You never want to be the worst. That's not fun. You want to be in that exact sweet spot.

[Andy Greenwald]

By the way, congratulations on winning the Super Bowl.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, thank you so much.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't even think we discussed that.

[Mina Kimes]

Congratulations on CR Month. It's actually bittersweet for me because I did the rewatchables with Bill before CR Month. That's when I learned about CR Month. And then now I'm coming at the

[Chris Ryan]

end of the month. Technically, you are, like, very. You are my last guest of CRM.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is Crmont.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, we're still in it. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's so March. Yeah.

[Mina Kimes]

Well, I mean, my house. We're like one of those people who leave up the Christmas tree at all times. CR Month is all year long, so it's really.

[Andy Greenwald]

What you do is you just take one cigarette and put it on your mantle.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Bill has talked about it being a yearly thing, like San Gennaro Festival, so

[Andy Greenwald]

that's a perfect topic.

[Mina Kimes]

I was thinking, like, Shark Week. What are we talking about?

[Andy Greenwald]

San Gennaro, it gets a little crowded. You pay too much for Zeppeli. What are we talking about?

[Mina Kimes]

It's like a ride that we're all, like, a little afraid to put our kids on.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

They're selling sausages and also tube socks.

[Mina Kimes]

What was the highlight? Now that. Yeah, let's do a little retrospective.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's incredible how, like, now we've. It's been 30 days, but at the end of it, this happened in the rewatchables, too. There's been a lot of, like, how do you feel now?

[Mina Kimes]

I feel like I'm the avatar of the CR heads in the Ringer universe, You know?

[Andy Greenwald]

You are.

[Mina Kimes]

Shout out to the Reddit. I see y'. All.

[Chris Ryan]

You were pretty vocal about your appreciation of that group of guys or whoever.

[Mina Kimes]

Subreddit I enjoy it is, I think

[Andy Greenwald]

one of the most healthy places on the Internet, full stop, usually. Except in regards to me.

[Mina Kimes]

Way better than Mina Keim, which I don't look at.

[Chris Ryan]

I've really enjoyed myself. I'm ready to go back to my, you know, kind of like my. My side character position, you know, just setting you up for success.

[Andy Greenwald]

You don't think this main character energy is gonna carry?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I just. All it really was is I got to do a bunch of movies on rewatchables that I thought were really special.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's really caused some people to spin out. I saw that clip of Yossi trying to say that maybe she was your best friend. And then Sean being like, I'm not sure if you're his best friend, ma'. Am. And then on the rewatchables dropping today at the beginning of the fourth hour Mark. Third hour mark. Bill turned to Chris and said, these two guys are hanging from a cliff. Which one do you save?

[Mina Kimes]

Classic the good son scenario.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it was rough. Who did I pick?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, you stayed silent and you laughed. And Sean pointed to me and I said, you should save Sean. He's younger and has more to do.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

On that note, we can wrap it up. Mina, thank you so much for coming

[Andy Greenwald]

to save me Anyway. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you for joining us about paradise, and hopefully we'll bring you back on when the next time we have a time travel show again.

[Andy Greenwald]

We love having you on. Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

You're already recording it. Apocalypse. Thanks so.

[Mina Kimes]

Much.