Ed Cumming (2:16)

It's a great question. I used to have those grids memorized.

Chris Ryan (2:19)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, come on. It was like Thursday night.

Ed Cumming (2:21)

You know what's on NBC, you know what's going on over on abc.

Chris Ryan (2:26)

Do you think you ever watched, like. I mean, I now know we professionally are obligated to do so, but did you think you were much of an 8 to 11 person when you were a teen?

Ed Cumming (2:34)

I think when ER was on, when it was like must see TV into ER, locked in. That's locked in. Three hours every Thursday.

Chris Ryan (2:42)

Let's talk about the pit first because we also have some pit news breaking, which is, I thought, very interesting that this came out today. So Supriya Ganesh plays Dr. Mohan on the show, is going to be leaving the series and Dr. Ellis, played by Aisha Harris, is upgraded to main cast. This is interesting on a couple of different levels for pitheads. One seems like they're getting out in front of obviously, like Mohan's departure, which I don't know if you feel like it deflates the drama of it or is her arc so obviously pointed towards an exit.

Ed Cumming (3:15)

I was, I would be surprised. Like, I kept waiting for the Samira storyline to turn around this season because they love to do that, a reversal. Like that's what happened to her last season, right? Everyone's like, you're so slow. You're so slow. And then she just really came through in the mass casualty. You got the Ogilvy redemption. You've got some like, joy turn, you know, like we were always turning on a character. But Samira just keeps going down and down and down and down. And in this episode, 7pm, she's like wilted completely.

Chris Ryan (3:42)

She's just like given two'd in the OR. Yeah, I know. So I guess I don't even like, you know, Variety reported this first Hollywood Reporter picked it up. There's no quotes or statements really of significance to me. It's like a little bit deflating because I think you'd want to have that moment dramatically. But I wonder whether or not that moment doesn't even occur dramatically on screen. Like maybe this is an off screen departure. Not unlike Dr. Collins. I was going to say departure last season, which was I'm going home, getting in the bath and turning my phone on, do not disturb. And I miss news of a mass casualty event in Pittsburgh.

Ed Cumming (4:20)

Right. And then we get just sort of like a side recap of where she's been and what she's up to. So we'll get a little like Dr. Mohan update next season. But this is the nature of the world they set up, right? If we're doing one 24 hour shift every however many months. The nature of a teaching hospital, Ed, is that people are rotating in and out, so I think they're gonna have to bend a little. You know, they had to bend a little to get. Whitaker is still here. He went for med student. You know, so, like, in terms of the org chart, you can't keep everyone there because they're meant to be going on to, like, specialties or all these other things. And so I'm like having only one cast member turnover. I'm surprised by. I would expect maybe even more so.

Chris Ryan (5:02)

This was my next question, which just gets into this episode specifically, which is the. This episode is. Got a lot going on, but one of the, I think most delightful things is the appearance of the night shift.

Ed Cumming (5:14)

Hell yeah.

Chris Ryan (5:15)

So Dr. Shen, Dr. Ellis, Mateo. Dr. Abbott and I know that they're. Well, well, Dr. Abbott's not well rested. He's been catching power naps in the backs of ambulances in between SWAT raids.

Ed Cumming (5:27)

Dr. Ellis also gave her deposition today and barely got a nap in. So.

Chris Ryan (5:33)

Look, it's fan casting and it's. It's not probably going to happen, but it. If. If I told you season three was night shift.

Ed Cumming (5:42)

Oh, yeah, I'm in. And. But even better than night shift, what if they gave us two pit seasons a year?

Chris Ryan (5:48)

I know.

Ed Cumming (5:48)

I. I'm going to get greedy and say, what if we get the January day shift and then the September night shift? Don't we deserve that, Chris, we work so hard.

Chris Ryan (5:56)

It's for pit heads. It would be amazing. I. I was curious whether or not there was. What percentage of your brain is entertaining the idea that the next season is like five minutes later and that it's this.

Ed Cumming (6:09)

Or five hours later, rather.

Chris Ryan (6:10)

It's this shift. The night shift, in the midst of their night shifts.

Ed Cumming (6:13)

I mean, how often can they bend over backwards to get Abbott in? You know, they really want Sean Hadassey in there, I think as much as possible. Dr. Abbott is so popular. Dr. Ellis and Dr. Shen are two of my faves. The introduction of Dr. Cruz Henderson in this episode.

Chris Ryan (6:27)

Great ultrasound wiz. Yeah.

Ed Cumming (6:29)

Great additional. So I would love. I don't think they're gonna do a full night shift season. We could sort of entertain this. You and I had talked off POD about this idea of is Noah Wiley taking a season off? Given that he's like, eping and writing and directing episodes and, you know, everywhere on every single interview getting his Hollywood walk of fame star, is no Wiley gonna take a slight backseat from leading man territory? And give us a night shift season. Not that Dr. Robbie doesn't make it out of the season alive. I don't think there's any, any version of the Pit.

Chris Ryan (7:00)

I don't think that that's the case either.

Ed Cumming (7:01)

Noah Wylie in it for the foreseeable future. But if it's more night shift oriented and we get like a few hours of day shift instead, I thought that would be maybe interesting. Or half and half, as you say.

Chris Ryan (7:13)

Yeah. This is such a fascinating show and I kind of wanted to talk a little bit on a macro level about, like, what I think this season is doing so successfully is because obviously they could have played the hits and had a explosion at a fireworks factory, you know, And I thought that's what they

Ed Cumming (7:27)

were going to do.

Chris Ryan (7:27)

Had 150 people coming in while a cyber attack happening.

Ed Cumming (7:31)

And when there was like an incident at the water park, I was like, oh, this is it. This is our mass casualty event for the fourth of July. But it was like three people, so.

Chris Ryan (7:38)

But this is a much more, I think, considered character study. And the cases are interesting and like Orlando and all these people who are kind of recurring and Digby's been there for most of this this season.

Ed Cumming (7:50)

I'm really proud of Charles Baker getting paid for the full season.

Chris Ryan (7:52)

He's awesome.

Ed Cumming (7:53)

I love that for him.

Chris Ryan (7:54)

Maybe he can just become like a janitor at the, at the hospital and just stick around. But it's really cool to see a show that. The thing about procedurals is you'd want it to play the same notes every week and comforting. They're like, I think looking at the long game here and they want to make five seasons at least of the show, which in our time is the equivalent of having a 12 season show back in the 90s. And I think that to sustain that, you have to play. You have to know when to push and know when to pull.

Ed Cumming (8:28)

Yeah. And I think having the MASH casualty shooter event in season one and the cyber attack in season two, I think they don't want to push their luck in terms of how many big events can we get away with that make sense? You don't want to just give us the same formula again. I think it's been really interesting the last couple episodes to sort of track who's clocking out. We're just gonna slowly see people clocking out. That's an interesting way to end the season. I don't think it's gonna be everyone gathered in the park having beers again. So what are we gonna get May

Chris Ryan (8:57)

next season Is actually Santos never clocking out. She's just working on charts. Forever shredded. They set up a special room for Santos to chart, and she's just stuck there the entire time.

Ed Cumming (9:08)

So Supriya is not coming back next season. Is there anyone else where you're like, I could see them sort of moving on?

Chris Ryan (9:14)

I mean, I think the Robbie thing. So this episode obviously ends with. They have been very manipulative with cliffhangers this season where it's like, you know, Emma in a headlock.

Ed Cumming (9:25)

Right.

Chris Ryan (9:26)

And you're like, cool, I have to wait six days for this.

Ed Cumming (9:28)

Now Dr. Alhashimi zoning out, and we still don't know exactly what happened.

Chris Ryan (9:33)

I think 1. I like your idea of Noah not being front and center. I do wonder whether. Cause okay, so he is eping directing an episode, writing an episode. He is the voice and face of the show on every panel talk and in every interview, he's playing with puppies on Instagram to promote the show. And then on top of. Of that is probably going to be up for awards for the next couple of years, you know, for this show. And I think that's a grind. I mean, when Andy and I talked to him, they. He was in between coming from the writers room. And then I think the globes were like, the next week.

Ed Cumming (10:12)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (10:13)

Which, you know, it's not working at a factory, but that's long hours and a hard work.

Ed Cumming (10:18)

And it's more, you know, like, when you think about ER in its heyday, the sort of starring job was spread out across a couple different people. Even with Clooney at his height, there were still just a couple people who were the face of er and Clooney was never eping writing and directing and all the other things. And so I just don't want no O'Reilly to burn out.

Chris Ryan (10:38)

I don't either. But when people are like, is Robbie leaving the show? No, I'm like, you know, O'Reilly has been kind of, like, waiting for. I think it's fair to say, like, has been waiting for this to happen for a while.

Ed Cumming (10:50)

It's like, I'm not going back to the library and you.

Chris Ryan (10:52)

Exactly. So I. That there's a possibility. Look, he leaves this episode being like, what if I don't come back at all? I think there's a overtone of, is he having suicidal ideation? But I think maybe it's like more like doctor, heal thyself. Like, you're saying that Mohan is burning out. You're saying, like, this person's burning out. Maybe you're the one who's really burning out. And then the other person, who I think is kind of like, you know, Javati, I think you could say, maybe found herself in that or doing brain surgery with Mary McCormick, but also is obviously like, a little bit screwed up from this day and from losing a patient. And I. You know, I'm trying to think of who else I think is on the line there. Well, you know what? I don't think Al Hashimi and Robbie are gonna be working in the same ER next year.

Ed Cumming (11:41)

Yeah. I'm curious how that all resolves itself. But the idea of her floating. The idea of, why don't we have two attendings? Is, you know, that she did in a previous episode. A lot of people have been wondering, does that mean we could get Abbott and Robbie on the same.

Chris Ryan (11:54)

Could we handle that shift?

Ed Cumming (11:55)

I don't think so. But, like, the night shift is interesting because Dr. John Shen and Dr. Abbott are both attending. So they've got two attendings on the night shift. Why not the day shift? I don't know. Something to think about. But I think that Dr. Alhashimi, I don't think she's coming back next season, which I'm really curious to see how that wraps up. I don't know that I'm, like, absolutely in love with what this arc has been for her. Woman comes in, man thinks she's not fit for the job, and then she's not fit for the job is not my fave.

Chris Ryan (12:24)

It's funny. I saw a clip of Noah Wylie and Katherine Lanassa talking about the show that people are watching versus the show that people that they're making. And I think this is a pretty rampant condition in modern TV watching, which is, like, people kind of having these parasocial relationships with fictional characters and starting to personify them as if, like, they're like, people. Yeah. And being like, I can't believe Kendall did that. Kind of. Rather than Jesse Armstrong is writing a Greek tragedy and Jeremy Strong is bringing that to life. But they were talking about, like, in. In very polite way, but I wonder whether a lot there was a little bit of an edge to, like, yeah, like, people watch this show, and they're like, robbie should be brought up on charges for snapping at Dr. Mohan. And it's like, well, it's a tense workplace. And also, like, I think they are trying to say, this guy is. Is on the line. Like, this guy's gone from, like, let's all have a moment of silence for a dead patient to, like, is this about Your mother? Give me a fucking break. Totally.

Ed Cumming (13:36)

And I think that's, like, there are two ways in which I think people are. I don't like to say people are watching TV incorrectly, but, like, the mystery boxing of this show that people are treating, like, heatstroke. Mom. Like, it's a mystery we have to solve, rather than the show presenting us with a woman where we're asking questions, what happened with her kid, but it's not gotcha. Like, you know, that kind of thing. And then also there's Dr. Robbie's point of view, and there's the show's point of view. And I think it's really easy to get confused between the two, to see Robbie as a leader of this environment and to say, okay, if Robbie disapproves, it's wrong, and if Robbie approves, it's right. But what the show is challenging us to see is that sometimes he's right and sometimes he's wrong. And that's really hard, I think. I know a lot of people are watching the show thinking Robbie's. I look to Robbie to see if I'm supposed to interpret this, especially when, like, the medical jargon is over your head. You're, like, looking to him just to, like, guide you through morally and emotionally what's going on. And I don't think that's what the show is trying to do, but, like, we'll see.

Chris Ryan (14:34)

I don't think so either. I think that we bring baggage to it from watching Noah Wylie for decades, and then I think that we are told. Or I think there is an inherent, like, understanding that when you're watching the protagonist of a TV show, you're not thinking, oh, like, this person's out of line, or this person, like you said, has made a mistake in an ER and made a mistake in the way that they're dealing with them. And that's an interesting commentary on where this character is. You're like, this is making me mad because I'm here for this guy to save the day, and instead he's, like, screwing up. Yeah. And bumping Duke up the line in CT scans. You know, and maybe that's inappropriate, right? That's not the most inappropriate.

Ed Cumming (15:18)

And Elvin from the Cosby show has to show up and be like, no, man, you don't get to do that.

Chris Ryan (15:22)

Please just keep bringing TV people and random TV doctors.

Ed Cumming (15:27)

Like, just bring. Bring us all these TV doctors.

Chris Ryan (15:29)

I know, right?

Ed Cumming (15:29)

Like Mary McCormick and y' all vet Jeffrey Owens, who was a doctor on the Cosby show way back in the Day. I love that. Like, keep doing that.

Chris Ryan (15:37)

Okay, so then I wanted to talk a little bit about Whitaker scene with Ogilvy. I think is. It's kind of so funny. I don't like doing the ER to pit comparisons overly because I'm sure that the people making the pit are like, legally. That is not true.

Ed Cumming (15:53)

If Michael Crichton's estate is listening, that

Chris Ryan (15:56)

is definitely not what this is, Ed, not er. Whitaker is definitely becoming Carter, you know, like, where it's sort of like this doe eyed cares too much, but now is sort of like able to take Ogilvie into the ambulance bay and kind of give you the thesis of like, I think emergency medicine, which is, you have to accept that this is the worst day of this person's life and it might actually be that we might not save everybody.

Ed Cumming (16:21)

I literally wrote in my notes this week, underlined it. This is the thesis of the show. Right. And sometimes the. Sometimes the pit, in ways that I don't like, just says the thing rather than, you know, showing it to us. They often do that. And so there are times when I really bump on that. But this one really worked just because it felt like an authentic character moment for Whitaker. But, yeah, just saying, like, I like being there for people on the worst day of their lives. And I'm like, okay, that's the theme of the show. That's great. But the Ogilvy arc this season and the, you know, people were calling him, like, sort of evil Whitaker evil, you know, Huckleberry, whatever you want to call him. So for Whitaker to be able to help him the way that Robbie and other people helped him in the first season, that's what you want to see?

Chris Ryan (17:08)

Yeah.

Ed Cumming (17:09)

So this is like one instance where I didn't mind the pit just saying the thing, you know, kind of.

Chris Ryan (17:13)

And I do think that his relationship to farmer Amy is that her name. Sure is. Farm Benefits is. Is like, do you. Do you take it beyond the. The hospital? Like, is. Does he care so much that he is like. And you know, McKay got dinged for that earlier in the season when she was treating the tranq addict in the park, where it's just like, you guys can't. I need you here for this crucial moment in the ed I can't have, like, your big hearts going out into the wider Pittsburgh on shift.

Ed Cumming (17:42)

This is why the mystery that I'm really trying to unravel is, what is it that sets Robbie off when he comes down too harshly on people? Cause in this episode, Dana calls him out for being too harsh. On McKay and Mohan. And I was like, why are those two doctors really the one? You know, whereas he's like very gentle with Whitaker and like a couple of other.

Chris Ryan (18:02)

And Ogilvy.

Ed Cumming (18:03)

And Ogilvy.

Hailey Boston (18:04)

Right.

Ed Cumming (18:04)

So like, is it a gendered thing? Could. I think that's certainly in the mix. But I was wondering if it's something to do with like Samira always goes above and beyond. McKay always goes above and beyond. So if it's that sort of like I recognize myself in this and I don't like it. I get too emotionally involved in this when he gives Samira the whole. And McKay the whole speech about sort of like, you know, you leave this hospital, that's it, end of your day. But like Robbie's like, I can't even leave the hospital. Right. I just live here. This is where my heart and my brain reside.

Chris Ryan (18:33)

He is kind of Whittaker living in the hospital, but just emotionally.

Ed Cumming (18:36)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I don't know. That's something I'm really fascinated by this season.

Chris Ryan (18:41)

Let's talk about Robbie and Dana. So there's two conversations in this episode that have basically happened in other episodes and one I think with Robbie and Dana is one where like, it's great because like they've had the volcanic blowout, they've tried to have a quiet moment and those two. And their dynamic is one that feels the most organically television to me in a great way because they are writing into, I think an obvious palpable chemistry and star power, for lack of a better term, that Katherine Lanasse has now brought to this character. And she's an award winning actress now. And they're like, let's give her stuff to do and let's, let's put her in opposition of some stuff and let's put her in lots of crucial moments. And it's great because that's actually how fights work is they do not end.

Ed Cumming (19:32)

I know, I loved that.

Chris Ryan (19:33)

And somebody walks out and like they're not like. And now we've resolved it and we. No, it's like, you know what? Fuck you. I'm still thinking about that.

Ed Cumming (19:40)

Right. Especially in the premise of the show where we're with them every hour of the day. So things should not wrap. You know, cases don't wrap up tidally in an hour. We have people extend over the course of the season or several episodes. So that's, you know, there are disadvantages to like let's do an entire character arc in one shift at the ed. That's that, you know, they really stretch and pull to make this show. But there are advantages where it's like, let's make this a more natural several hour long conflict, you know, between two people and that. And, you know, to go back to this idea of, like, Robbie's POV in the show's pov, I think having Dana as a strong opposition to him is a really good way to sort of challenge viewers and ask them to question Robbie's pov. If Dana's questioning him. You know, we're with Dana, too. This is mom and dad of the. Of the Ed. And so if mom, dad are fighting, whose side are we on? And the answer, similar to sort of like the Santos Langdon conflict earlier this season, is they're both right and they're both wrong.

Chris Ryan (20:40)

Yeah. Which is like what real life is.

Ed Cumming (20:42)

That's when the Pit is its best.

Chris Ryan (20:43)

I mean, it's like if. For every moment. I don't know if you. I'm sure you've seen the. The. The video, the Instagram video of the person doing pit characters being like, did you know violence happens to nurses 5% more than anybody else? And then looks at the camera and goes like. Like, that is. That is probably the Pit at its most pedantic. But then, like, we call it living

Ed Cumming (21:03)

out with a Pit.

Chris Ryan (21:03)

Yeah.

Ed Cumming (21:04)

Over on the Prestige TV podcast,

Chris Ryan (21:08)

it's. But it's like the Pit is at its best when it can be like, how does time and pressure affect character?

Ed Cumming (21:14)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (21:15)

The one that I was like, I thought we did this conversation was the Whitaker Santos housing arrangement, where last episode they had a very cute kind of like, oh, you just want. You. You actually like being my roommate and you want me to stay. And if you say it, I will stay. And I thought that that scene was wonderful and obviously ended with a note of like, yeah, he's just gonna go check on Robbie's plants like three times a week and pick up his mail.

Ed Cumming (21:42)

Right.

Chris Ryan (21:42)

And now it's like we've reopened that like an hour later. And that one, it didn't feel sloppy per se, but I was like, I don't really understand. I thought we kind of handled this last week.

Ed Cumming (21:51)

Maybe it was that Santos couldn't say it and he, you know, he's her main safe space in this place. And if he's just sort of like, even if you can't say it, I'm just gonna do it and I'm gonna be here for you. And I liked their little sort of like, non look looks and stuff like that. And what I love about, you know, to Your point earlier about people getting overly emotionally invested in this show and maybe watching it in a different way than the creators mean. The constant shipping of various characters that is happening in the fandom is fun in some regards, but then you constantly have the actors coming out and saying, like, actually, for Frank Langdon and Mel King, this is like a mentor mentee. We believe in platonic.

Chris Ryan (22:27)

For Santos is a lesbian.

Ed Cumming (22:30)

So, like, for Santos and Whitaker, like, those kinds of relationships, they give each other these sort of, like, shy looks, but it's about their friendship, them being roommates. And I did really like that. The one that really I thought was sloppy writing in this episode was when the new intern on the night shift, Nazuli, when she was like, there's a new guy in that bed that wasn't there before. It's just like, okay, shaving a haircut.

Chris Ryan (22:56)

Dark man, he just got a haircut.

Ed Cumming (22:58)

A haircut.

Chris Ryan (22:59)

It's okay. I liked her, though.

Ed Cumming (23:01)

Yeah, I liked her.

Chris Ryan (23:02)

She was cool. Yeah. The night shift appearance, I. You know, the idea of these people being their. Their shift is done, and we're probably not going to get a cold beer in the park, right? To end the season. And it's actually probably gonna end in maybe a grimy way where, you know, whether it's like, Robbie basically, like, storming out and we don't know when he's coming back, or, you know, maybe one of the things I've dug is that for as effective as the Hawaiian prayer, for instance, of last season was, people have tried to make their cases. You know, they've tried to make their big speeches and, like, I don't know that, like, Duke is going to be able to convince Robbie that, like, he's gonna be okay and he's gonna go for treatment or that Robbie is gonna be able to convince Duke or that obviously with Mohan, like, it's not gonna end in a place where Mohan is like, I've realized that emergency medicine is my passion. You know, she probably is gonna be like, I got a weird phone call from my mom, and I do have to go to New Jersey or something

Ed Cumming (23:59)

more like, I am gonna try geriatrics or something like that. I mean, that's really interesting because, again, that's more like real life, because we're watching Mohan as a character I really like, and I really love that character. And I'm trained as a television watcher to be like, okay, she's struggling, and then she's going to figure it out, or someone's gonna say something to her. You know, so many people Mel to Langdon inside of this episode, Whitaker to Ogilvy. So many people have given grace to someone who's struggling today, and Samira's not getting it. And sometimes that's just true. You know, sometimes you don't get the advice you need or the support you need to make it, and sometimes you

Chris Ryan (24:38)

don't, or how could you if you were at the end of a shift like that.

Ed Cumming (24:41)

Exactly. So, you know, as much as I want, because I'm rooting for Samira, for her to figure it out, maybe she will be happier somewhere else.

Chris Ryan (24:49)

Yeah. And also, if there's a natural kind of like you, you cycle out of this job unless you decide that this is your passion and this is what you want to do all the time, like, that's going to have to be something that us as watchers and fans of the show accept.

Ed Cumming (25:04)

Right.

Chris Ryan (25:04)

To the extent to which. So you bring up Layton, and I would put him in my maybe not coming back zone. I think that Mel does a good job of cheering him up a little, but I don't think he's going to get closure with Robbie, and I don't think he's going to get closure with Santos.

Ed Cumming (25:23)

There's a couple hours left of the shift, so who knows what? But yeah, it's possible. And, like, it's also from the sort of meta. Watching these actors kind of way. Like, I could see Patrick Ball, who, like, loves to do theater and stuff like that, you know, being kind of busy and interested in doing stuff, doing

Chris Ryan (25:38)

Hamlet at the Geffen or whatever.

Ed Cumming (25:39)

Yeah, I know. Did you hear about that production of Hamlet? Someone described it to me. Apparently they were like, and then we do this major twist and it's something else. And I was like, or you could just do Hamlet, I promise. But he's in a show on Broadway right now, you know, so there's, you know, or Isa Briones, like, there's a lot of these actors. The Pittsburgh, like, old school television is a huge time commitment, a huge platform, but a huge time commitment, too. And so, you know, how many of them are going to Clooney out of here, you know, and how many of them are going to stick around and movie?

Chris Ryan (26:05)

And doing the Clooney is a lot more accepted now. Right, right. Like, and it's like, people do do multiple shows. This is sort of like a reality of the way that Hollywood has changed the way they make television. Is that in the same way that writers are having a hard time, like, scraping together, like, okay, I'm. I did two. Two episodes of this show. And then I did an episode of this show and I'm trying to pitch my show, like these actors, like, yeah, the pits, like a really steady paycheck. But I bet that they are, like, I need to also have like a stable other thing going to, you know.

Ed Cumming (26:37)

Yeah, you don't want to do the full like sort of Reggae Jean Page, like, I don't need you. Bridgerton and love and Tuscany or whatever that's called. Yeah. So did you see that? Did you see that? He and Nicola Coughlin were sort of in the first episode of SNL uk. And everyone's like, are you coming back? Like, are you coming back to Bridgerton? And there's this sort of like look on his face like, I made a huge mistake in my Bridgerton moves.

Chris Ryan (27:00)

But, you know, he was really good in Black Bag.

Ed Cumming (27:02)

He was really good in Black Bag and the D and D movie, actually. I thought he was good in that too.

Chris Ryan (27:07)

Who else did I want to talk to you about on this episode? We talked a little bit about Alashimi, but like, Robbie being like, I've identified this from across the room that she paused during her era John speech I thought was eagle eyed. But that'll be a good test of what we're talking about is like, Robbie might be right, but he might not be nice, you know, And I think they have obviously laid some foundation for Alashimi to be like, here's what happened to me in my life, like, why I might. This might be happening to me. So whether it's a neurological problem, like it's sort of been suggested because she's calling her doctor's office at one point, or whether it's ptsd, I don't know. But yeah, there's a lot actually, now that I think about it, that they're gonna have to address. Unless they wanna drive people nuts for the nine months that it's not on.

Ed Cumming (27:56)

Right. You need a doctor Halashimi sort of diagnosis or information or something like that. Something for Langdon, you know, I think we need another Langdon and Robbie scene. Whether or not that is like a closure scene or something else, I doubt it. Robbie does not seem like he's in a place to give grace, any kind of grace to Langdon at all.

Chris Ryan (28:15)

Yeah, I mean, I saw this is like people may or may not want to know this because in some ways it's, it's indicative of what might happen. But I, I heard a Noah Wiley interview where he was like going through like the themes of the seasons.

Ed Cumming (28:29)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (28:29)

I can't remember how he actually like, described it, but it was like, doctors

Ed Cumming (28:34)

make bad patients doctors.

Chris Ryan (28:35)

And. And he's like, doc. And he's like, doctor. But the third season is about doctors healing and doctors.

Ed Cumming (28:41)

Doctors making good patients.

Chris Ryan (28:42)

Making good patients or whatever. And that might suggest a much different kind of season.

Ed Cumming (28:48)

I was thinking. Yeah, therapy are we doing in treatment? You know, everyone goes up to see the therapist over the course of the shift or something like that.

Chris Ryan (28:54)

Yeah, they've been pretty. It's. It's really interesting. They gave themselves a lot of rules and obviously, like, they've built this set in Burbank where they have this full 360.

Ed Cumming (29:04)

Right.

Chris Ryan (29:04)

You can be in the ED and like, there are times where they're like, it feels like we are actually doing it. But they, with the exception of a remarkably bright outside Pittsburgh for 7pm Rarely go outside the walls, only to the ambulance bay or to the internment room where Louis was kept for a while the part.

Ed Cumming (29:24)

So, like, there's.

Chris Ryan (29:24)

They went to the park and the roof.

Ed Cumming (29:26)

There's Robbie's motorcycle ride in where you get a little bit. There's Mel last season picked up her sister. I think that's as far as we've gone.

Chris Ryan (29:33)

Okay.

Ed Cumming (29:33)

Then there's the roof and then Whitaker's.

Chris Ryan (29:36)

But like, we never got to go to admin to hear about the cyber attack or whatever.

Ed Cumming (29:39)

Right. Or we're not following, like, Howard, a patient we're really invested in. We don't go up to surgery with him and stuff like that. So will we go in a meaningful way to another floor in this hospital?

Chris Ryan (29:49)

Should we fantasy cast Robbie's therapist?

Ed Cumming (29:52)

It shouldn't be his pal who's like, hey, man, get some therapy.

Chris Ryan (29:55)

It shouldn't be Eric LaSalle.

Ed Cumming (29:57)

Yes. Actually. Yes. Where are you? On the season versus season one, there

Chris Ryan (30:02)

were more memorable, like, enshrined that in some sort of TV hall of fame moment, like Wing in the first season. But the second season, in a way is better. Like, the second season to me is like riskier, braver, like more interesting and as a drama. Whereas the first season had moments where I was like, I forgot to breathe for five minutes. That hasn't happened as much this season. Like, I think my relationship to some of the cases and patients have been like, they haven't lost that many people like, on screen. Like, a lot of it has been like, oh, Ogilvy's patient got like, they lost him upstairs. But there hasn't been the, like, guard of honor for dead child stuff.

Ed Cumming (30:45)

Right. A little girl drowned or a young man is brain dead.

Chris Ryan (30:48)

Yeah. Like, Roxy happened off screen.

Ed Cumming (30:51)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (30:51)

So, like, there's a lot of. It has been, I think, a little bit more about Louie.

Ed Cumming (30:55)

Louie.

Chris Ryan (30:56)

Oh, yeah, Louie. That's right. And that. That was really beautiful. But, like, I think that so much of it has been about the doctors and their internal crisis.

Ed Cumming (31:05)

Yeah. It's interesting because when something explodes out of its first season the way that the Pit did, I'm always so nervous about the second season, because how much of it is novelty? How much of it is just sort of like, oh, they're doing a full shift, or, oh, my God, procedural television is back in a prestige kind of way, or, Noah Wylie, we missed you, or whatever the case may be. I think a lot. There's a lot of great examples of that. Empire is the first one that always comes to where people were just obsessed with the first season of Empire, and then it just sort of. The second season comes back, and that momentum of the newness isn't there. And so I think the Pit did something really smart in what you're saying, which is just sort of, hey, come spend time with these characters you're invested in. Not, we're gonna shock and awe you. But, you know, yes, there's cyber attacks. Yes. Emma's in a headlock. Like, we do have these moments, but, like, it's about you hanging out with people who, over the course of a day, are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.

Hailey Boston (31:55)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (31:55)

And I mean, like, even the big moments from the season, like Jesse being arrested by Ice, it just seems like Jesse is going to be in prison for the weekend. So I doubt. I don't think we're going to get, like, Robbie riding his motorcycle with a helmet to the courthouse to save Jesse.

Ed Cumming (32:09)

Hashtag free Jesse.

Chris Ryan (32:10)

Hashtag wear helmet. Let's talk a little bit about what else is on. The easiest way to do it is kind of like this primetime grid. But before we do, because I have this interview with Hailey, and I don't know if something very bad is going to happen is on your primetime grid, but I wanted to just see if you had gotten a chance to check it out and what you thought I

Ed Cumming (32:31)

did because of you. Thanks for Ryan. What an influencer you are. No, I had heard some negative things about it, and then you were like, I'm really digging it. And you said it. You doubled down on that. And so I checked it out. I really loved. I watched the whole thing. I really, really loved the first couple episodes. I think the cast is incredible. The leading actress, who I thought was one of the best parts of Daisy Jones and the Six, which I thought was, like, a mixed bag, but I thought she was a real standout. I think she's like Sarah Pigeon in Love Story level of just really watchable. Just. I want to see everything that she does. I think she's really, like, this is just a huge, I think, hopefully boost up for this actress, who I think is incredible. But I think all of the performances are really great. And, you know, this is an interesting experiment for, like, this sort of, like, produced by Duffer Brothers era of Netflix. Right. Stranger Things is over, but they have all of these other projects that they've touched, and this is one of them. Right. And so. And it's a hit, which is not always the case with these big Netflix deals.

Chris Ryan (33:34)

Yeah. I mean, they have the Burroughs coming next, which is their kind of. Their eping, which is like a kind of like. It sounds like Cocoon. Right? It's like, at a senior home or assist. Not assisted living, but like a. A senior citizens, like, elder care place. And it sounds like there's aliens or something happening, but it's got, like, a fucking crazy cat. Like, Alfre Woodard is in that.

Ed Cumming (33:55)

Yeah. There's the animated Stranger Things.

Chris Ryan (33:58)

That's right.

Ed Cumming (33:58)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (33:59)

Do you. Are you. Are you like, I need a little bit more Stranger Things. I want.

Ed Cumming (34:02)

I'm pretty good.

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Yeah.

Ed Cumming (34:03)

But I'll watch it pretty good. I'm obsessed with how they styled this character who carries the show as, like, a Liv Tyler and Empire Records, like, in the craft, like, 90s.

Chris Ryan (34:16)

Sort of like, Hailey is just here. I think she's styled on Haley. It just feels very reflective of her personal style.

Ed Cumming (34:23)

I mean, just great stuff. I'm a huge fan.

Chris Ryan (34:26)

It's. Here's the thing I would say for anybody listening, you know, your mileage may vary on horror, and your mileage may vary on, like, if you want to be in that headspace for that long. I found it, like, the second half of the season is actually quite funny, and I wouldn't say daffy in places, but, like, it's a different vibe than the first few episodes. It's different and, like, I've been kind of waiting for something to come along this season. I was going to ask you, like, if you had had any, like, leaders for, like, this is my favorite thing so far of the year. But, like, what this did was, like, I had seen a fair amount of stuff that even if it was good or fine, I was like, okay. I feel like it's still, like, throwing the same pitch that I've been watching for a while and this felt very different.

Ed Cumming (35:14)

I think for this primetime grid assignment that you sent me, I was checking out some things that I was a little behind on and stuff like that, and it did all feel very samey, especially since there's this massive Bill Lawrence spread across. You've got the Taylor Sheridan. There's just a lot of things that feel like they're the same show reiterated by one creator. So I think in that way, this fresh new voice I'm excited to check out. That interview is really exciting. And then I think for me, my leader would be a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. That's very much my shit in general, but I do think it was Thrones,

Chris Ryan (35:50)

but a different tone Snoring Gasping during sleep?

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Chris Ryan (38:30)

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Hailey Boston (38:57)

Carvana pickup fees may apply.

Ed Cumming (39:00)

I would give it that. Yeah.

Chris Ryan (39:03)

All right, let's do our grids. Okay, so I usually style this in a traditional fashion, but you can take the assignment anywhere you want. Now, here's the funny thing about the way we used to do TV is I realized that like in my normal everyday watching, I do the reverse of this. So it used to be that they would lead with the comedies from 8 until 10. 10.

Ed Cumming (39:26)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (39:27)

And then they would do a drama at 10 and then you would go to bed or you'd watch late night. Right? I watch the hard stuff first now and then try to do a come down from that sitcom or comedy show after. Okay, but I'm doing the grid as if it was like Thursday night.

Ed Cumming (39:44)

I don't, I don't think I intentionally stack shows that way. That's interesting.

Chris Ryan (39:48)

Oh, so you don't ever like you're not like, that was a lot. Like you don't watch an episode of Industry and you're like, if I'm going to watch something else, it can't be like an hour long intense drama.

Ed Cumming (39:56)

No, mostly. I don't know, just mostly because we're doing it for work. It feels a little different. But I, I think that I'm thinking about the way that hbo, even HBO Sunday Night used to be two comedies into a drama sort of thing. No, I don't think I do. Like I should do that for my mental health. I should do decompression television. What a great idea.

Chris Ryan (40:17)

There is sometimes, like, I can't. My wife and I watch horror a lot, like on Friday or Saturdays and it's just like really weird dreams. Like when you watch like, you know,

Ed Cumming (40:29)

I had really weird. I watched a lot of Something Very bad is gonna happen like yesterday and I had some weird dreams last night.

Hailey Boston (40:36)

Very weird.

Chris Ryan (40:36)

Okay, walk me through your grid.

Ed Cumming (40:39)

Okay, so I get two comedies, two dramas or. Right.

Chris Ryan (40:44)

It's however you want to do it. Like I have, I tried to do this of shows that I. We either haven't really talked about or haven't talked to him in a while.

Ed Cumming (40:53)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (40:53)

But it can be whatever you want as long as it's the sort of 8 to 10 or 8 to 11. And then the bonus is like, are you watching any like late night variety,

Ed Cumming (41:04)

whatever or whatever you're watching on YouTube? Yeah, right.

Chris Ryan (41:07)

Or 90 minutes of Survivor. That drove me crazy last night.

Ed Cumming (41:10)

I mean, Survivor is absolutely rotting my brain right now.

Chris Ryan (41:15)

Fudgeing Shout out Trump. Being like, I'm preempting Survivor to just read my, My Truth social posts and not actually do anything.

Ed Cumming (41:22)

You love to. Shout out Trump on the platform.

Chris Ryan (41:24)

Shout out brother.

Ed Cumming (41:25)

Shout out Trump.

Chris Ryan (41:26)

Thanks, thanks. Thanks for that.

Ed Cumming (41:28)

So I'll start with a comedy and I'll say the Comeback.

Chris Ryan (41:33)

I have not checked out yet season

Ed Cumming (41:34)

three of this show that has been sort of come and gone a couple times and it's I think three episodes into the season, maybe two or three episodes into the season. And this has never been my favorite favorite HBO show or Lisa Kudrow Vehicle or anything like that. So I don't have a long term investment in it. But what they're doing with this season and there's a lot of shows right now that are very Hollywood looking inward. That's what the Comeback has always been. But there's a lot of shows like that right now. But how it's engaging with basically the sag, Aftra, Wga strike, Covid, which all seems like very ancient history, but it's a very piercingly funny show. And I think in contrast to sort of the Bill Lawrence spread, which you're getting with shrinking scrubs and Rooster all being on at the same time, which is very kind, gentle comedy, something more incisive and cutting, like, the comeback is really welcome to me.

Chris Ryan (42:36)

I was reticent to jump in because I was kind of neither here nor there about its earlier iterations, but I'll definitely check it out.

Ed Cumming (42:43)

Yeah, I don't think you need to be at all. And I think that the strike and the COVID of it all is the very beginning. But what happens because of, you know, the state of the industry that we find this character Valet Cherry in is she gets talked into doing a sitcom that's written by AI. So Andrew Scott is here this season as like a horrible exec. Abby Jacobson and John early, who are her, like, comedian stalwarts, are here as the head writers of a show that's being written by AI and it's just like a great. A great premise. Like, it's really good. They're all keeping it secret that it's written by AI, but, like, you know, there's all these jokes about it. It's very good. So that would be my first comedy. Do you want to, like, ping pong or do.

Chris Ryan (43:25)

Sure, we can ping pong. My first one is one that Andy and I discussed a little bit about maybe actually a while ago because it had debuted on Peacock and then did the like. And seven weeks from now, we'll start airing this now. But it's the fall and rise of Reggie Dinklist.

Ed Cumming (43:39)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Chris Ryan (43:40)

Which is the Tracy Morgan Daniel Radcliffe vehicle from Robert Carlock and the Tina Fey industrial complex.

Ed Cumming (43:46)

Yes.

Chris Ryan (43:47)

And is incredible. 30 Rock Methadone for people who are still looking for. Can you fit nine jokes onto a page?

Ed Cumming (43:54)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (43:54)

Triple like, visual sight gags in the. In this frame, I. I see with great excitement that the Daniel Radcliffe Megan thee stallion relationship on this show has started to take flight on the Internet. And listener. This is really special stuff.

Ed Cumming (44:14)

His, like, obsession with her.

Chris Ryan (44:16)

Yeah. And her, like, relating to him being like, okay, talk to you later. Is like, amazing. They have a tryst in the back of a mail van, I believe, and he becomes smitten. But yeah. This show, in case you don't know, is about a disgraced ex athlete, Tracy Morgan's Reggie Dinkins character who is trying to make a comeback after being kicked out of the NFL for gambling. And Daniel Radcliffe's character is a failed documentarian who is making his comeback as well, trying to make a doc about Reggie Dinkinson's life. And the cast is stacked. Everybody is hilarious. There are some episodes better than others, but it is really, really, really good. Like, solid sitcom making.

Ed Cumming (45:00)

I think it's offering you something you already know you love, which is Tracy Morgan just doing the only character.

Chris Ryan (45:06)

He's Tracy Morgan with a head. A head statue of himself. Yeah.

Ed Cumming (45:11)

And then Dan Radcliffe, like, if you didn't see his TBS sitcom, like, this is what Dan Radcliffe, in addition to winning Tonys for musicals and whatever, this is what he loves doing, and he's very good at it. So, like, you know, there's something familiar. And then if you aren't. I love Dan Radcliffe in this mode. Like, and I think he's a great fit for this universe. And I love that this is a project that I love all of his choices that he's made in the last couple of years.

Chris Ryan (45:36)

What's your. What's your second show?

Ed Cumming (45:38)

My second show, even though I just talked shit on the Bill Lawrence spread, is, I will say I don't mind Rooster. Like, it is the exact same show that he's making. I saw Bill Lawrence making fun of himself about this because someone tweeted out, sort of like, Bill Lawrence just make the same show over and over again. And then he, quote, tweeted with, like, nuh. Bad monkey was totally different. You know, this is the problem.

Chris Ryan (45:57)

You can't really say anything about Bill Lawrence shows because he will. He'll, quote, tweet it.

Ed Cumming (46:01)

Talk about that familiarity. Like, I was thinking about the fact that we have, like, Noah Wylie, Lisa Kudrow, Steve Carell, Tracy Morgan, you know, like, all the, you know, Ted McGinley, Krista Miller. Like, they're all back here on our televisions. But, like, Steve Carell back as the lead of a sitcom is far preferable to Steve Carell on the morning show or anything else than he has wanted to do recently.

Chris Ryan (46:23)

Steve Carell, wrestling coach.

Ed Cumming (46:25)

I'm a big fan of it. Yeah. Wow. We'd love to come back to Foxcatcher. Danielle Deadweiler is kind of wasted here, I think, but Phil Dunster, who was my favorite part of Ted Lasso, is a great, pompous character who we have. Robbie Hoffman, who was such a great breakout on the last season of Hacks and is a comedian I really like, is just here to make fun of his character. That's a delicious dynamic.

Chris Ryan (46:50)

Okay, I'm gonna dip back into this. Honestly, like, I Think my lasting takeaway was like, I need, I need more for Daniel Deadweiler after the first episode. Like, just bring me the X Files immediately.

Ed Cumming (47:01)

Exactly. Oh, my God, I'm so excited.

Chris Ryan (47:03)

But yeah, like, I, I'm, I don't think I am a Bill Lawrence sitcom guy. Like, I, I, I don't know if Bad Monkey 2 will be work better for me, but, like, for some reason I just need a little bit more of an edge, I think in my style.

Ed Cumming (47:19)

Bad Monkey was like a really great half season and then it just kept going and just sort of got lost, I think. But yeah, I agree. I'm a little frustrated with how prevalent the Bill Lawrence effect has been in the last couple years, but I think Rooster is something I could hang with a bit.

Chris Ryan (47:38)

Okay. So my second comedy kind of thing is something that I didn't really think was a real show until I made sure to check it out. And that's last one. Laughing.

Ed Cumming (47:49)

Yeah. Oh, no, that's my late night one. Okay. But like, let's talk about it.

Chris Ryan (47:53)

Okay. So I saw the premise for this show that Jimmy Carr was hosting what is essentially Big Brother for some of the funniest people in comedy in England.

Ed Cumming (48:03)

Yes.

Chris Ryan (48:04)

That they're trapped essentially in a room together and they are all trying to make each other laugh. And, you know, if you laugh, you're out or whatever. I was like, yeah, like, I could watch that for like five minutes. But, like, I think this is incredible. Yeah, I think this is unbelievable because it's never just people trying to tell like a crazy joke that will get a laugh. It is full on, like, characters and bits and long stories and performance pieces by these. You'll definitely recognize some of the people when you watch it, but it's on Amazon and it is so delightful to check this out. So my favorite person on this, David Mitchell, is incredible on it. Bob Mortimer is really, really fun. Bob Mortimer is an icon, but Diane Morgan is so funny on this show. There's a couple. I don't want to ruin any of the gags, but you're also a fan of this.

Ed Cumming (48:55)

Yeah. So this is the second season of the Brit, so my understanding is that it's sort of an international hit. They've done versions of this around the world and UK finally hopped on. I'll be curious to see if there's an American version that we wind up doing. But I had watched the first season, so this is the second season. Bob Mortimer. Spoilers. Bob Mortimer won the first season, so they brought him back for season two. And yeah, and These are my faves. Like, I love British comedy. I watch, as I've talked to you about before, I watch British panel shows all the time. So this is such an interesting experiment because it's quite cringy to watch these like comedy assassins who are the peak of their game and are so, you know, Alan Carr is here. Like all, you know, Ramesh Ramanathan's here. Like they're all here and they're doing their best and nobody's laughing except for like Jimmy Carr in another room. And so you're like kind of dying inside while you're watching it. But you're right that in that sort of Big Brother reality show kind of way, once you sort of settle into the social experiment of it, it's really absorbing.

Chris Ryan (50:01)

The funniest thing on the show by far is the faces people make in effort not to laugh.

Ed Cumming (50:06)

Oh yes.

Chris Ryan (50:06)

Like what they have to do.

Ed Cumming (50:07)

Mel Gadroid, basically, like they're.

Chris Ryan (50:10)

They, they look like they're all having heart attacks.

Hailey Boston (50:12)

Yes.

Chris Ryan (50:13)

Like it's unbelievable. But honestly, like these episodes are like 30 minutes.

Ed Cumming (50:17)

Oh yeah. Easy, breezy and six episodes a season.

Chris Ryan (50:19)

I could definitely see it this actually being a better like late night. But what's your next one? So this would be 9:00pm 9:00pm

Ed Cumming (50:29)

I think I'll do something very bad is gonna happen. I think I would put that on my grid. I think if you watch the Comeback and Rooster and then you get weird creepy horror drama with Jennifer Jason Leigh, I think that's a good mix. Maybe the opposite is true, given your prescription of watch a drama and then come down with the comedy. But I think I couldn't think of another I'm not watching. I mean, if we're not gonna do the Pit, which we could.

Chris Ryan (50:54)

Yeah, the Pit would be a really

Ed Cumming (50:55)

logical, you know, really easy. I'm not down with DTF on hbo, so I don't think there's a lot of great options in the draw in the hour long drama space right now. What did you dig up?

Chris Ryan (51:09)

It's not really a drama, it's not really comedy. And I don't even know if it's that good.

Ed Cumming (51:15)

Okay.

Chris Ryan (51:16)

But Kiki Palmer's really good on the Birds.

Ed Cumming (51:19)

Okay. I haven't watched it, but like I do go to the Grove sometimes and if you've gone to the Grove in the last couple months, it's just sort

Chris Ryan (51:25)

of like it's really burped out. Everyways all it's burped up, it's on Peacock. I think the whole season's up And I'll be completely honest with you about how this is working out. This is the show that I put on as I'm falling asleep. Yeah, I thought I was on episode seven. It turns out I'm on episode two. It feels a little longer than it needs to. It is that kind of very last three, four years phenomenon of a basically murder mystery with comedy. Like, there's definitely, like, they're trying to do only murders. They're trying to do, like, a lot of, like, twists a lot of red herrings. Jack Whitehall plays Kiki Palmer's newly, like, newlywed and also new parents. And they. They've moved back to his hometown. And then they are interacting with all, like, the neighbors. The two neighbors who are, like, unreally, like, they're just so good on. This is Paula and Mark Prosh from. From what we do in the Shadows, and he's riding a recumbent bike. And I guess much like dtf, but like, they are trying to solve, like, multiple mysteries. Justin Kirk is in it.

Ed Cumming (52:35)

That's. I was gonna ask how. How my guy Justin Kirk was so far unrecognizable.

Chris Ryan (52:39)

I thought it was episode six. Yeah, just in the three episodes. We mostly see him as the creepy neighbor that nobody understands across the street.

Ed Cumming (52:47)

He's rattling it up. Our guy, Justin Kirk.

Chris Ryan (52:51)

Kiki Palmer's, like, one of the best comic actresses that we have right now. And this is about as close to, like, let's give her, like, a classic Diane Keaton role and let her just interact with all these people and do her thing, but also be very, very funny. And it's like, a little like Normie, but it is really, really like, she. She is worth watching at least one.

Ed Cumming (53:13)

Is it connected to the. The film the Burbs?

Chris Ryan (53:16)

It is based on characters created by the person who wrote the Burbs.

Hailey Boston (53:19)

Okay.

Chris Ryan (53:19)

I did not re. Watch the Burbs.

Hailey Boston (53:21)

Okay.

Chris Ryan (53:22)

It feels like it's like our. Our suburban nightmare is like, the premise, but maybe there will be more of a connection to.

Ed Cumming (53:30)

This is like, a few blocks over in the same neighborhood. Here's what's happening.

Chris Ryan (53:33)

Yeah, I think it's just like, IP they had lying around. And, like, what if we turn this into a comic mystery?

Ed Cumming (53:37)

What if we picked up the Burbs ip Something everyone's been clamoring for. Sounds great.

Chris Ryan (53:42)

Okay, what's your. What's your drama at Ted?

Ed Cumming (53:45)

Oh, well, that's where I put something very bad is gonna happen. So I. So since you took last one Laughing uk, which I love for both of Us I'll do SNL uk, you know, two, two episodes in, I think. Right. Tina Fey hosted, Jamie Dornan hosted. A bunch of like other British comedians I like, but much newer on the scene British comedians. And I, you know, you and I are both fond of English culture and it might be confusing to people who don't know who like Keir Sommer is or like whatever the case may be,

Chris Ryan (54:15)

very long David Attenborough sketch.

Ed Cumming (54:18)

But like the Prince Andrew sketch I thought was really, really good. So there's just like some real gems there and they've got a good, some good Weekend Update hosts. So I'm just like curious to see if this, this very American property can translate over to the uk.

Chris Ryan (54:32)

Yeah, I, it seems like it's doing well over there. I think the thing that's been interesting is that the, on the English side of like the media and also the commentary around it is the emphasis on like the money that was spent to make it.

Ed Cumming (54:46)

Oh.

Chris Ryan (54:47)

But more as an example of just people don't make a ton. Like salaries are different there and like, I think people are like, wow. Like this isn't just a set where like four people sit at a table and go through the news and make quips.

Ed Cumming (55:02)

Right, right, right.

Chris Ryan (55:03)

They actually like spend a ton of money and like Saturday Night Live is fucking expensive show to make. So even, even the like the UK version, I don't know if they do as much stuff as, as the US version, but they are, you know, everybody is like, wow. Like this is like an American style production here.

Ed Cumming (55:20)

That's. That reminds me of like what they did with like the last couple of, of Doctor who where they got this sort of like Disney money into the Doctor who budget and all of a sudden it looked better, but it looked wrong because Doctor who should look kind of janky and under budgeted. So. Yeah, that's interesting. Alternatively, if you don't want to do a UK show though, that's available on Peacock. Right. Have I got news for you. Speaking of sort of like news panel shows, the American version of a UK panel show. Michael Ian Black, Roy Wood Jr. It's a, it's a really, really fun sort of like.

Chris Ryan (55:58)

I haven't watched this one yet.

Ed Cumming (55:59)

I'll check this out. Yeah, it's really good.

Chris Ryan (56:00)

Okay, so that's like your 10pm kind of. Or is that.

Ed Cumming (56:03)

Yeah, I'm going to. Well, no, I'm going to say so I've got two comedies, a drama and then that's my like late night.

Chris Ryan (56:08)

I guess what I would say So I have Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins. Last one Laughing the Burbs, a show that Andy and I are going to talk about on Monday that we had gotten some emails for encouraging us to check out is a Netflix spy series called Unfamiliar.

Ed Cumming (56:23)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (56:25)

You guys got me.

Ed Cumming (56:26)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (56:26)

Yeah.

Ed Cumming (56:27)

This is our catnip.

Chris Ryan (56:29)

Basically. Eastern Gate meets the Americans. Yeah. And it's fucking good. It's a Berlin set spy drama about a married couple who are running basically a safe house business for spies on the run while also running a lovely farm to table restaurant in Berlin. And they get pulled back into an old case that they were involved in in Belarus. And Andy and I discussed this a little bit on text. Has anything good ever happened in Belarus?

Ed Cumming (56:59)

One thing.

Chris Ryan (56:59)

Is anybody ever like, I had an incredible honeymoon in Belarus. It's just always like some really fucked up stuff happens down Belarus.

Ed Cumming (57:06)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (57:08)

Watched two episodes of this last night. I'm hooked. It's interestingly written by a British author. British writer. TV writer. And I assume unless he's also fluent in German, translated into German to be made as a German TV show. So the international co pro.

Ed Cumming (57:28)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (57:29)

This is Gaumont who I believe also did Le Bureau but does a lot of think Gaumont did 000. They do a lot of international.

Ed Cumming (57:36)

You're sub, not dub. Right?

Chris Ryan (57:37)

I'm so not dub.

Ed Cumming (57:38)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (57:38)

Yeah, yeah. That's the way I'm trying not to. I'm trying to get off subs for English language.

Ed Cumming (57:46)

Like I can't pry them out of my cold dead hands.

Chris Ryan (57:50)

I was watching what was I watching the other day where I was like, I can't be this stupid. I can. Oh, Survivor. I was like, I don't think I need subs for Survivor.

Ed Cumming (57:58)

That's fair. But I think for like especially when

Chris Ryan (58:00)

we cover it for work.

Ed Cumming (58:01)

Like I don't want to, you know, miss a keyword that I misinterpreted or something like that.

Chris Ryan (58:06)

The thing that was driving me nuts was industry because I wanted subs for like the off screen banter. And I also needed subs for the elaborate financial jargon.

Ed Cumming (58:15)

Yes.

Chris Ryan (58:16)

But found myself reading blocks of text at the bottom of the screen rather than looking at Mariza Abela's face. You know.

Ed Cumming (58:23)

A crime against humanity. No. I think that the thing that disturbs me is when I go to movies now and I'm like, where are my subs?

Chris Ryan (58:30)

I know I was. You know what my progress bar project. Hail Mary. I was like, I wonder how much longer this is. Not in a bad way. But I was Like, I'm not used to not being able to, like, disorient it.

Ed Cumming (58:39)

I can't, like, wiggle the. The mouse and bite out. How much longer?

Chris Ryan (58:42)

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, unfamiliar. We'll be talking about this on Monday. There's a couple of pretty cool international crime shows out. There's privileges on hbo, which I'm going to check out this weekend.

Ed Cumming (58:55)

But yeah, there's a. I mean, this isn't. You asked. You gave me this prompt at an interesting time because we have a lot coming, you know, like Hacks and Euphoria Beef. Like, all these sort of like, very muscular shows are coming back. And so I'm really excited to see what happens in.

Chris Ryan (59:10)

We're gonna be busy. Yeah, yeah. I'm also really looking forward to Widow's Bay.

Ed Cumming (59:15)

Yeah, yeah. The Matthew Reese show, though. I'm curious. Did you see. Oh, God, what was it called? The Apple Do Law Show. That was sort of about, like an isolated island community.

Chris Ryan (59:26)

That was.

Ed Cumming (59:26)

Wasn't that Apple?

Chris Ryan (59:27)

Hbo.

Ed Cumming (59:28)

That was hbo.

Chris Ryan (59:29)

That was hbo.

Ed Cumming (59:29)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (59:30)

Right, right. I can't remember, but that was a classic. Like, me and Andy watched the first one and we were like, is this show the Goat? Like, this is the best thing ever.

Ed Cumming (59:37)

And then, like.

Chris Ryan (59:37)

And then you have. Okay, yeah, that's. I can't remember the name of it.

Ed Cumming (59:41)

I can't remember it. The Third Day for some reason.

Hailey Boston (59:44)

That's such a Covid era show to me. Like.

Chris Ryan (59:47)

Yeah, and that was also a time when, like, they were like, jude Law is happy to, like, call in from his garden if you could make the time.

Ed Cumming (59:53)

And then they were. They were like, do one episode live. You know, there was like a weird gimmicky thing about it, but for some reason, the trailer, they released a little teaser for this and I was like, oh, I'm all the way in. It felt very. To a Peaksy, like, really excited about Widow's Bay. And then they dropped a trailer and I watched it and it gave me third day vibes in a way that I was like, I watched that whole show for nothing. Please don't do this to me again. But if Matthew Reese is in it, I'm gonna watch it. Can I just dump for one other British thing? And this is very me Coded, the other Bennet sister, which is, you know, burning it up over in the UK right now, and then is going to hit Brit box, I think, at the beginning of May. But this is like, I'm very snobby and picky about my Jane Austen adaptations. And this is Pride and Prejudice, a Bit of Pride and Prejudice than after. Told from the point of view of Mary Bennet, who's like the sister nobody likes. And it's really good. It's.

Chris Ryan (60:45)

So where is it?

Ed Cumming (60:47)

It's gonna be on Brit box. I think May 6th is when it starts.

Chris Ryan (60:50)

Box.

Ed Cumming (60:50)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (60:50)

You guys, all that's delivering. Do you want to do, like, two minutes on Survivor? Did you watch last night?

Hailey Boston (60:55)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (60:55)

I am always wondering whether or not I think the reason. One of the reasons why I don't think I was a huge Survivor person from its inception, aside from whatever reasons, is that, like, I always just kind of found, like, the alliances to be unbreakable. Like, in. In my experience watching it earlier seasons, where it would just be like, we have seven, they have five. We're just gonna pick them off.

Ed Cumming (61:17)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (61:18)

And then Matt's. Matt's on our side.

Ed Cumming (61:20)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (61:20)

And so it was fascinating last night. They're articulating, like, siree and a couple of other people are really articulating well, like, there is an old school block of players here that want to play. I got your back, brother.

Ed Cumming (61:35)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (61:35)

Style Survivor.

Ed Cumming (61:36)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (61:37)

And last night, you know, Colby goes. Genevieve goes.

Ed Cumming (61:42)

And Camilla.

Chris Ryan (61:42)

And Camilla goes. We got kind of like a mix of both sides of that game, but

Ed Cumming (61:47)

even two new schoolers and an old school. And like the old schooler in Kobe.

Chris Ryan (61:50)

My biggest takeaway was just like, that was an interesting gambit to make it like, Blood Moon. Nothing is safe. But then it's like, yeah, but this person has an idol. This person has immunity. So it's only one of two people. And I just. Regardless of, like, whether I want to, like, hang out with her, Genevieve's just a really good Survivor player.

Ed Cumming (62:07)

She is.

Chris Ryan (62:08)

And so I was bummed that she got voted out.

Ed Cumming (62:09)

Camila, too. Camilla's a really good player. It's tough because the dynamic of the Blood moon episode, Jeff taking like, literally five minutes to just basically say triple elimination. That or the Applebee's promo. Is that your question?

Chris Ryan (62:23)

Was it the bacon burger or the blood moon that got more time?

Ed Cumming (62:27)

Why didn't they have, like, a blood moon Bloody Mary available from Applebee's? Where was the synergy there? The Applebee's logo has a red apple. You could have just turned it into a red moon.

Chris Ryan (62:35)

Then you've got, like, branding. Call me for Mark Burnett as his new destiny.

Ed Cumming (62:43)

Horrifying. But I. Yeah, this is a real luck of the draw episode. It's just like they drew rocks for these five person team. And if you were as Genevieve was just sort of like, the odds are completely stacked against you. There was no maneuvering for her. It was just a real. So there's no social game to it inside of this episode. It's just a real luck, and then we'll see what happens in the merge. But, yeah, I love this old school. What they're trying to do on the season of Survivor, and I'm not gonna tell you anything you don't already know is try to do this endgame almost like referendum on the whole franchise. These years you've spent with this show matters. We're trying to give you as many flashbacks as we can to make you really feel the, like, passage of time. We're showing you that, like, Colby's foot hurts and Ozzie's back hurts and all this other stuff like that. But Dee is crying at tribal because she has to send Colby home. And Colby, you know, is a player that inspired her to get into the game in the first place. So there's this, like, big tapestry of history they're trying to present, but also this. Yeah, old school, new school. Is Cerie going to be successful because she's an old schooler who can be more fluid and adaptable and.

Chris Ryan (63:54)

Well, Chrissy was, you know, Chrissy was able to do tearful, like, I get it. It's not personal. And then immediately went and was like, we can't do me. Like, what do we have to do? Not to. Not to be me.

Ed Cumming (64:06)

Call an ambulance. But not for me, like, real moment from Chrissy. But I think that, like, another thing about a returnee season. And I was on Tyson's podcast earlier this week talking about it is like, all the pre gaming alliances that have happened, you know, which is like, no shame in the game. Like, what are you going to do? Like, not pre game when you go into a returning season, but the. The Colby coach, Stephanie, Jonathan, like, that whole sort of thing is.

Chris Ryan (64:33)

Is a pre game coach is giving me a nickname.

Ed Cumming (64:35)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (64:36)

Yeah.

Ed Cumming (64:36)

Joe is part of that. Right. Like the Zoom alliance. Yeah. We're cut from the same cloth.

Chris Ryan (64:42)

I did I miss what the inciting incident was between Aubrey and Genevieve because it was so.

Ed Cumming (64:51)

Mallory and I are in a Survivor pool and we put Aubrey High on our list to go all the way because we thought that Aubrey, Genevieve. They did an Aubrey, Genevieve scene in the first episode that was so weird. And out of nowhere in the edit where it was just Genevieve walking up to Aubrey and being like, hey, do you want to play with me? And Aubrey's like, not sure, which is a really weird thing to do. On day one of Survivor, the. The common thinking is that you always say yes, no matter if you plan to or not. Like, first day of Survivor, you're just like, yeah, I'd love to work with you. That's what you gotta do. Aubry. For some reason, I think it's just like, they're too similar. Smart girl. Smart girl.

Chris Ryan (65:28)

Not gonna be like, challenge camp Lord, but, like, we have to play our social game, and that's gonna involve her.

Ed Cumming (65:33)

You're too much like me, and I don't. I don't want you here, you know,

Chris Ryan (65:36)

because I thought that they're like, blood feud was like, I was like, you guys really could have helped each other, like, in this.

Ed Cumming (65:42)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (65:42)

In this game. And also, neither of you, Both of you play pretty fluid games, so it wouldn't be like, hey, like, I can't do anything about it. I'm in an alliance. Like Genevieve, I think, like, I don't

Ed Cumming (65:53)

know what it is.

Chris Ryan (65:54)

Or she's like, really, really good at Survivor, but, like, clearly, like, everybody's like, we gotta get Genevieve out. Like, when she was talking to Christian,

Ed Cumming (66:00)

I was like, that was a great argument.

Chris Ryan (66:02)

And I was like, you're just too good.

Hailey Boston (66:03)

It was.

Ed Cumming (66:04)

It was really smart argument.

Chris Ryan (66:05)

Christian was like, she's very convincing, and that's why she has to go. Yeah.

Ed Cumming (66:08)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (66:09)

All right. Well, it's a good season so far.

Ed Cumming (66:11)

I'm excited.

Chris Ryan (66:12)

Thank you so much for joining me.

Ed Cumming (66:13)

Thanks for having me.

Chris Ryan (66:14)

Thanks for pulling double duty on the Pit. And let's get into my interview with Hailey Boston, who is the creator and writer of Something Very Bad Is Going To Happen, which is on Netflix. This conversation is full spoilers, so if you have not finished the show, I recommend you do so before listening to this interview. And I recommend you do so anyway because it's a great show. So let's get into my interview with Hailey. Thanks to Kaya, thanks to Kai, thanks to everyone here at Sycamore for producing today. Andy and I will be back on Monday. We'll probably be talking unfamiliar, Maybe some privileges. Maybe we'll dabble with the new season of your Friends and Neighbors. We'll see how much time Greenwald has, and I can't wait to do it. Thanks so much for joining me, Joe.

Ed Cumming (66:55)

Thanks for having me.

Chris Ryan (66:57)

Hayley, thank you so much for joining me on the Watch. Something Very Bad is Going to Happen is. I think it's, like, one of my favorite shows of the year, for sure. I wanted to talk to you, obviously, about some granular plot stuff, but if we could start with a conversation topic that Andy and I kind of brought up on the show on Monday when we were first discussing it is the challenges of sustaining horror over a multi episode kind of track.

Hailey Boston (67:21)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (67:22)

Because obviously there's the things that you can do in a two hour feature that you're building up to certain crescendo and then like exploding it. But this is like, okay, how do I keep tension throughout an eight hour kind of run? And I have like theories about how you did that. But I was curious if you could tell me a little bit about your approach.

Hailey Boston (67:44)

I mean, honestly, I am surprised that people think the show is so scary because it's hard to be objective about that. You know, it's been living with me for so long that getting that response, I was like, oh, good, it's effective. But I think the, I mean, what we talked about a lot was like changing the genre a bit as the season goes on. So the first episode has a lot of jump scares. It is a lot of that dread and tension. And I don't think you can do that for eight episodes. You know, you gotta change it up.

Chris Ryan (68:20)

We actually, I was like. I think we had talked about it. I had seen two and Andy had seen one and I was like, I don't know if like you, if people could handle it if it's the first episode for eight hours.

Hailey Boston (68:31)

Yeah, I mean, I think like David lynch can do that.

Chris Ryan (68:34)

Sure.

Hailey Boston (68:34)

And has. But honestly, I had a lot of trouble finishing the Return.

Chris Ryan (68:39)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (68:40)

Because of the like four episodes of Dougie wandering around. I was like, I. I don't know,

Chris Ryan (68:45)

I like respect it, but I don't ever want to watch it again.

Hailey Boston (68:49)

So the first two episodes have a lot of that, like dread and tension and it sort of turns into a home invasion thriller in episode three. And then we've got the found footage in episode four. And then, you know, the whole season shifts into the Supernatural. And I was inspired by Servant. The first season of Servant, I thought was brilliant the way that it shifted the genre and you, the audience doesn't know by the end of the pilot you're like, is he crazy? Is she crazy? Is this supernatural? What's going on? And I think you kind of need to do that in order to sustain the horror in a series. And in something very bad. It's like, then there's a bit of body horror, I would say, obviously the last episode, the horrors, I think. Quite poetic.

Chris Ryan (69:41)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (69:43)

It's not as scary in the.

Chris Ryan (69:45)

It's like Giallo. It's like there's so much red that you're like, this is kind of beautiful. Yeah.

Hailey Boston (69:49)

Yeah. So. But it was really about approaching it within those subgenres and talking to each director about, you know, then we have the seance in episode six that. Trying to get that kind of talk to me energy in there. And then a lot of it was figured out in the edit and in the mix.

Chris Ryan (70:11)

You say that you are pleasantly surprised to find out people find it scary. Did you have a hope for what people would find it, like, in your most sort of, kind of like, okay, like, keeping all this stuff grounded, like, how did you want people to receive it, you think?

Hailey Boston (70:25)

I want people to react to the emotional story. And that was so important to me when we were figuring out the curse and what that would look like. I really did. I wrote out Rachel's emotional arc and, you know, took away the genre. And then once I figured that out and figured out that she is someone who has a lot of doubt and then needs to believe by the end, that's where the idea that the curse, the antidote to the curse is belief. That's where that came from. And so I knew I wanted everyone to bleed to death, but it was a matter of figuring out how to make that work in the supernatural logic. But it all came from emotion. And so that's what I hope people who aren't horror fans even relate to. To the emotional story.

Chris Ryan (71:26)

Yeah. There's something, like, kind of beautiful about how at the end we can get into, like, sort of unpacking what happens at the end in a second. But, like, there is that idea that, like, the characters who survive are the ones who are, like, living honestly.

Hailey Boston (71:39)

Right.

Chris Ryan (71:39)

In some ways. Like, and even if their honesty is, like, the way Jules and Nell are kind of brutal with each other, it's still, like, a truthfulness that other people don't touch on because they live, like, these lies. I wanted to talk a little bit about the way you constructed the show a little bit more, because I was thinking about how if the show had begun with the two of them pulling up the driveway to Nikki's parents place, it feels much differently if Portia and Jules, like, arrive, are in like, the second scene, and he's like, okay, my family's weird, by the way, and then they walk in that whole first episode. It's so important to the rest of the scene season. But it's also like a fair amount of, like, red herrings or stuff that's just, like, really cool. But you don't 100% need to know about the end. So, like, when you're writing that first episode and you're. You're kind of like. Yeah, like Larry. Larry Poole and the Barbie shoe and the dead foxes, like, they're. They're important, but they're not, like, central to what happens to Rachel. Yeah. Is that hard to convince anyone that it has to start this way? Yeah.

Hailey Boston (72:44)

I mean, the first version of the pilot that I sold, they don't meet the family at all.

Chris Ryan (72:50)

Oh, wow. Okay.

Hailey Boston (72:52)

Really? All the road trip got to the house at the end, and it was quite different. But, yes, it's a bit of a prologue, and that's challenging in tv. And then it sort of slowly turned into being a little more traditional in that you're meeting the whole family. But I wanted to really capture what it's like to be Rachel and she is, like, living in a horror movie as a person.

Home Depot Ad (73:21)

Sure.

Hailey Boston (73:23)

And I wanted to make sure you're getting a bit of their relationship before it gets kind of disrupted by this family. There isn't actually that much time in the show that Rachel and Nikki spent together.

Chris Ryan (73:35)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hailey Boston (73:37)

And that was something I was worried about in the writers room. Just, you know, oh, God. Are people going to root for them? Are they going to care about them? But, yeah, I mean, that was important to me. And then there is a lot of thematic groundwork that we're laying in the pilot. I mean, the foxes become this sort of motif for what Rachel's going through. Larry Poole as a red herring. I've read some Internet comments are not satisfied with Larry Poole not being a thing. But that podcast episode that they listened to, I mean, Victoria Pedretti recorded that. So that's an Easter egg as well.

Chris Ryan (74:17)

Yeah. As it was happening, I was like, is she the baby? But, like, yes.

Hailey Boston (74:23)

So it's sort of. And there's this pregnant woman who gets murdered or almost murdered by Larry Poole, and then they find the baby. Like, it. Yes. Plot wise, it doesn't matter, but it's meant to be this sort of, like, Rachel has a. Has this premonitory dread.

Chris Ryan (74:43)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (74:43)

And these things she's encountering, listening to, being thrust into these situations, it's just meant to highlight all the things she's going through and. And will be going through.

Chris Ryan (74:54)

Yeah. I mean, even, like, the diner conversation is obviously, like, this hugely crucial thing to understanding, like, how she came into the world. And I. I liked it a lot because, like, you're also watching them and you're like, are these guys in love? Like, you know what I mean? Like, you're kind of even in the first pass of it, which is funny, is like a horror fan, I think you're just, like, always waiting.

Zepbound Ad (75:15)

Right.

Chris Ryan (75:16)

Like, I personally, like, really love the setup almost as much as the Scare, because if it's a good setup, the scare doesn't even have to be that spectacular. It can just be something kind of like. I mean, Leatherface is extraordinary, but, like, I watch Texas to watch them in the van. Totally see how weird it is. So in some ways, that road trip is the van at the beginning of Texas. And you're just like, okay, I care about what happens to these people.

Hailey Boston (75:39)

Yeah, yeah. There's the. The conversation they have in the diner is also sort of, you know, it's a brief moment where Rachel talks about this girl Kathy, who could see her past life.

Chris Ryan (75:52)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (75:52)

And Nikki's like. Or she had a great imagination. And it just really immediately sets up the fact that he doesn't believe. He doesn't believe in this stuff. And you should have seen it coming, you know? So I wanted to really look at everything they were going through and. And make sure it felt, you know, telegraphed to the end of the show.

Home Depot Ad (76:16)

Sure.

Chris Ryan (76:17)

I want to talk to you a little bit about the mechanics, sort of behind the scenes, because I think typically I think of horror as like a director genre or as a director's medium, kind of. And tell me a little bit about your relationship with the filmmakers and the directors working on the show, because I imagine there's collaboration, but there's also, like, I do need you to do X, Y and Z on this block. Right. So, yeah. Like, Veronica obviously comes in and it's got, like this incredible sensibility. But can you tell me a little bit about working with those folks?

Hailey Boston (76:48)

Yeah, I mean, yeah. Veronica is really incredibly talented and so great with perspective, and that was the thing that drew me to her after watching Baby Reindeer. And I really felt like she nailed being in Rachel's head.

Chris Ryan (77:08)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (77:09)

So when we were talking about the horror of the first two episodes especially, it's like, very much about Rachel's subjective experience. And she, you know, shot everything also in Rachel's pov. And that was so helpful in the edit to. To be able to have all these characters, like that dress fitting scene in episode two, circling her and looking at her directly into the camera. And so that was a huge piece of it. And then in talking about the scares, we really just looked at how to technically kind of achieve. The fox in the bathroom was inspired by a scene in Scream when Sidney's in the bathroom.

Chris Ryan (78:04)

And you got the snap shirt on today.

Ed Cumming (78:05)

Thank you.

Hailey Boston (78:06)

Yes. Big Scream fan talking about the tension, the, you know, impending dread and having all these long shots. And it was something that she and I just understood together. The found footage stuff. I mean, Axel, who directed that episode, is a big horror person. I mean, she's done a bunch of Mike Flanagan stuff.

Chris Ryan (78:30)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (78:31)

And I thought that sequence was so well done. And Victoria and Logan performed it very well. And we got away with having 15 minutes of story that had nothing to do with. I mean, not nothing to do with, but we cut away from our main characters. And that was something that was challenging at the script stage.

Chris Ryan (78:55)

Really?

Hailey Boston (78:56)

Yeah. It was originally written to be intercut with Rachel watching the tv.

Chris Ryan (79:03)

Oh, okay.

Hailey Boston (79:04)

And then in the edit, it was just like, how much can you really cut back to her watching?

Chris Ryan (79:09)

No, but then when you do cut back, it's fucking like, oh, my God, she's been watching this. Like.

Hailey Boston (79:14)

Yeah. Putting her. I mean, I love the moment where her mother says, hi, Rachel. And you realize you're on the same journey, basically as the pilot. And I think tying up some of the threads from the pilot in episode four, I feel like having the opportunity to do that kind of helps with some of the questions that, you know, you're left with in the pilot. You're seeing, oh, Rachel had stopped at all these same places as her mother. And it's almost like they're kind of on the same.

Chris Ryan (79:54)

It also helps if. If there's like the. The voice in the back of your head, it's like, but she could just leave. Like, why doesn't she just get in the truck and drive away? Like, these people are really weird. This isn't working. Like, go, go, go.

Hailey Boston (80:04)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (80:05)

Which is like the thing that's always happening when you're watching horror. Like, get out of the basement. But it. She can't leave. If she can't leave, like, because she's always supposed to have been there, you know.

Hailey Boston (80:15)

Totally.

Chris Ryan (80:16)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (80:16)

Yeah. There's some. There is sort of like a faded aspect to this place.

Chris Ryan (80:20)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (80:21)

And a familiarity. I mean, she. Her remembering the Coldies logo is impossible. She was technically there.

Chris Ryan (80:29)

Yes.

Hailey Boston (80:29)

Inside of her mother. And there was a character description of Rachel that was in the pitch where it was like, she believes that she and her mother share the same body. And I think it was like. And if she ever got pregnant, she would birth herself and the world would end. Like, that's a Rachel anxiety. And so I think some of that stuff just stayed within the story, even though it's Never explicitly mentioned Camila.

Chris Ryan (81:03)

I was curious, like, to what extent the character morphed at all once you decided to go with her. Because even watching her watch her mother die, first of all, like, that scene kind of reminded me of Red Rooms. Did you?

Hailey Boston (81:15)

Yes.

Chris Ryan (81:16)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (81:17)

I love that movie.

Chris Ryan (81:17)

It's fucking. It's amazing. And. But it's like, I was like, damn. Like, she has one of, like, she's got a top five watching something face.

Hailey Boston (81:26)

Yes, very. She's so good.

Chris Ryan (81:28)

And so I was curious, like, how much once you cast her, did you start writing into her and her, like, specific skills?

Hailey Boston (81:36)

I would say no.

Chris Ryan (81:37)

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

Hailey Boston (81:38)

But the character, as originally written, was more sarcastic and dry.

Chris Ryan (81:46)

Okay.

Hailey Boston (81:46)

And Cammy brought a lot of warmth and humanity to her just by being who she is and that I always. I saw Rachel as being sort of the. More, like, even, like, sort of Aubrey Plaza energy and Nikki being more like Golden Retriever. And Adam is a little more subdued, and Camilla is a little more energetic. So it ended up kind of still having the balance that I had initially conceived of, but in an opposite way

Chris Ryan (82:21)

inverted a little bit. Yeah.

Hailey Boston (82:22)

So watching them together, I didn't change any of the writing, but it made sense still. And I think there were some lines in the script that could have come off as unlikable. Everyone's worried about an unlikable protagonist, especially. There was a line that we cut where she says in the car, I don't see old people as people. I got a lot of, like,

Ed Cumming (82:51)

lots

Chris Ryan (82:51)

of people over 65.

Hailey Boston (82:52)

Yeah. Cammie brought a lot of charm and warmth to the character that I think is fantastic, and I think makes Rachel even more relatable. And she's just so great. Her expressions are so delicious. It was so fun being in the edit, just watching all of her takes and. And going, oh, yes, let's put that reaction in there.

Chris Ryan (83:14)

Like, one of my favorite passages of the series is her retelling their origin story, like, 10 times, increasingly. Like, I was actually wondering, like, are you, like, okay, you're on Champagne six now. So, like, do this, you know? Totally.

Ed Cumming (83:29)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (83:31)

The only way for that episode to work was for it to feel like a whirlwind. And actually, when I wrote that episode, after I wrote it, it happened to me.

Chris Ryan (83:43)

Oh, okay.

Hailey Boston (83:44)

I was. I wrote the episode, and then I was flying to my brother's wedding, just like Nikki.

Chris Ryan (83:50)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (83:51)

And at the airport, someone told me they were afraid something bad was going to happen.

Chris Ryan (83:57)

Come on. Had you already named the show this?

Hailey Boston (83:59)

Yes, I was grading episode five. I had turned in, like, Netflix draft one of episode five, and I was doing a rewrite. This is why I always say that I'm actually Nikki and not Rachel. And this person was really scared because the. We were flying out of the Burbank airport.

Chris Ryan (84:16)

Oh, well, to be fair.

Hailey Boston (84:19)

And it was really hot.

Chris Ryan (84:20)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (84:20)

And that's, I think, has one of the shortest runways of any more. Yeah. So the plane had to stop in Ontario to refuel and then fly to Oregon.

Chris Ryan (84:29)

Okay.

Hailey Boston (84:30)

And this girl was just, like, really scared. Had tears in her eyes and asked me if I was. She was like, am. I asked me if I was getting on the plane. And I was like, yes, I have a thing because I'm afraid of flying too, a little bit. But I have a. A thing where if I have, like, passively envisioned something happening in the future, that means I'm not gonna die and it's going to happen. Like, I've envisioned myself at my brother's wedding, which means we're not gonna crash.

Chris Ryan (85:02)

That's definitely logic. A more healthy coping mechanism than either someone famous is on this plane, and I don't think this is how they die. Which is one of the ones I used to use. Or babies. Yeah.

Hailey Boston (85:15)

Yeah. But none of that. None of that means anything.

Ed Cumming (85:17)

I know.

Hailey Boston (85:19)

Neither does my.

Chris Ryan (85:20)

Neither does a fascination.

Hailey Boston (85:22)

But I told her that. And I was also like, you know, Sarah Paulson always talks to the pilot before getting on a plane. I read that somewhere.

Chris Ryan (85:28)

Okay.

Hailey Boston (85:30)

Who knows? I could be spreading a rumor, but. So I was like. She was like, I'm gonna wait and decide. And I was so. I really just wanted to follow the plot and see what happens.

Chris Ryan (85:43)

Let's see. If she wanted to drive to Portland.

Hailey Boston (85:45)

I was like, I can't miss my brother's wedding. I said, all right, well, I'll see you on the other side. Which I shouldn't have said. And then I went through security. She did, too. And she asked if I would sit with her on the plane.

Chris Ryan (85:57)

Oh, wow.

Hailey Boston (85:58)

And so I did.

Chris Ryan (85:58)

Were you like, I actually have an aisle, so it's kind of like where

Hailey Boston (86:01)

I was sitting, I actually had a, like, business class seat.

Chris Ryan (86:04)

Nice.

Hailey Boston (86:04)

But I went back to sit with her and she bought me a drink. But it was funny because I told her on the plane. I was like, just so you know, I'm writing this show, and I've. When you see it in two years, like, I've already seen this storyline. It's very strange to me that this is happening. It's not based on. On you, because it Already has been written. And then she was like, what's the name of the show? And I was like, I'm not going to tell you until we land it almost.

Chris Ryan (86:33)

We had a computer, like, plane crash.

Hailey Boston (86:36)

She asked, does the plane crash in the show? And I was like, no, plane doesn't crash.

Chris Ryan (86:40)

Oh, my God, that's too much. Nick is. I, I wanted to talk to you about Nick because that's interesting that you're like, I see myself. I see more of myself in Nikki. Like, I have. I've actually, like, of. You know, often it's like a mixed bag when you're looking online for reactions to stuff, especially in, like, message boards or whatever. But, like, I found, like, people's different interpretations of Nikki to be kind of fascinating.

Hailey Boston (87:04)

I haven't read anything.

Chris Ryan (87:05)

Well, just sort of like, is he, like, a simp, or is he, like, an actual. Like, is he a romantic, or is he just destroyed by his parents in the same way that Rachel was kind of destroyed, but in a different way? And, you know, I, I think Adam does, like, this really interesting thing as him where I'm like, I like him, you know, but I don't love him the way I do. Rachel, can you talk a little bit about where you have to put a character like that to make, make the rest of the story work versus, like, also wanting to give him, like, a definitive, like, arc?

Hailey Boston (87:38)

Yeah, it's tricky. And that was a really big challenge because there's, you know, the horror trope of the husband who doesn't believe the wife.

Chris Ryan (87:48)

Right.

Hailey Boston (87:49)

And. And also, I, I, I wanted people to root for them, so I didn't want you to be, like, yelling at your tv, just dump him. And I've seen that before in a lot of horror.

Chris Ryan (88:05)

Sure.

Hailey Boston (88:06)

So I'm sure some people did have that reaction, but I was trying to make him sympathetic and loving. And I think you do feel that Rachel really loves him, and that's obviously why she has this dilemma. It's like, well, he's great. I'm not gonna. Am I really gonna leave because of this. This guy who told me about this curse?

Ed Cumming (88:26)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (88:27)

So. And, you know, the, the emotional version of that is like, I love this person. Maybe they're not the right person for me, but there is a lot of good. And how do you wrestle with that? I'm a Nikki apologist. Like, I think he is just. He's trying to do the right thing. I think it is romantic what he does at the altar. He just should have done it the first time. The first time but him realizing, like, what he says, you know, you're doing this for me. I pushed you here. You never wanted this. That is a loving thing to do. It's just that he doesn't see her fully and then, of course, betrays her. But I think Nikki is someone who needs other people to model behavior for him. So he's looking at his parents marriage as like, well, if I just do what they did, then I'm good. And then, of course, that is shattered for him, which is based on my own. Like, I remember in the writers room, someone asking me because we figured out we wanted Nikki to say no pretty early. But then it was like, how do we get there? And one of the writers asked me, well, what would make you question everything? And I was like, if I found out my parents marriage is not what I thought, it would completely change my understanding of love. And so for someone who puts so much stake in that, it shatters his world. And then after that happens, he's looking at everyone else for, okay, what do I do now? And his mom being like, just go get married again. And then his brother saying, I know what we can do. And he's just. He doesn't. He's not mature enough to have his own, like, backbone. And Rachel clearly is.

Chris Ryan (90:24)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (90:26)

So I was always looking for ways to make their relationship feel like it's not quite balanced and that they're not quite seeing each other without making the audience, you know, too aware of that, that they are not rooting for them. So it was a real balance.

Chris Ryan (90:44)

Yeah. I mean, do you consider him doomed at the end?

Hailey Boston (90:47)

Totally.

Chris Ryan (90:48)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (90:49)

I mean, he hopefully learned something from that.

Chris Ryan (90:55)

I mean, learned a lot.

Hailey Boston (90:59)

But the other thing, when we were sort of figuring out the ending, I wanted to have the drag me to hell ending, which I find so satisfying, because, you know, you're watching Rachel do everything right, and then it's sort of like Nikki is a forgotten. You forget that this wedding is two people and that he's off having his own arc. And, you know, it would be interesting to see the Nikki version of this show. What all the emotions he was going

Chris Ryan (91:36)

through that we don't see the Nikki cut.

Hailey Boston (91:38)

The Nikki cut.

Chris Ryan (91:39)

Yeah. What does he think on his aborted drive back to get the dress?

Hailey Boston (91:43)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (91:44)

What is he doing on the drive?

Hailey Boston (91:46)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (91:47)

Is he just, like, re listening to the Larry Pool podcast?

Hailey Boston (91:50)

He's just vibing. He's like, everything's great. My family's wonderful. Wonderful.

Chris Ryan (91:55)

That actually does bring up something I wanted to ask you about. Is like, I'm sure, like you going back through the pages of the script, but also if you. When watching the finished product, you're like, there actually is a Wicker man show and there is like a Up Mulholland Drive show in this show, you know, before. Especially before you get to the second half. And then the second half is obviously like. Brings in like the idea of like this supernatural, like, decade spanning curse. Is there a clubhouse favorite of like. I kind of want to go back and do this version of the show.

Hailey Boston (92:28)

You know, the Sorry Man. Every time I watch the pilot and you hear Portia's story of the Sorry Man, I'm like, man, I wish we saw that guy. Yeah, like, that's fucking cool. I've always been interested in the idea of someone being turned inside out. And we had some. What Portia. How Portia describes it. Yeah, that would have been cool. I definitely didn't want to do any visions or nightmares because at one point I was like, should we. Should we show the Sorry Man? But then it's like, whose perspective are we in?

Chris Ryan (93:03)

Also, like, the most of what Rachel experiences at the house feels like a nightmare anyway. So it's like how if you break it and you start having nightmares, then it's like, well, yeah, then what's real and what's not real?

Hailey Boston (93:16)

It becomes confusing. And. Yeah.

Chris Ryan (93:18)

The mechanics of the curse, was that fun to like, diagram or were you like, fuck, it was, honestly.

Hailey Boston (93:28)

Oh, man. You should talk to my writer's assistant. Because poor Isaac.

Chris Ryan (93:32)

Did he become the keeper of the curse when I.

Hailey Boston (93:35)

When. You know, the. The WGA has this like, new rule where you have to have a writer come to set. Yeah, my show predated that.

Chris Ryan (93:45)

Okay.

Hailey Boston (93:46)

So they were like, no, none for you.

Chris Ryan (93:49)

Wait, so like, they're just on set trying to like be like. So this curse is like, what?

Hailey Boston (93:54)

Well, I had. I. I didn't have anyone.

Chris Ryan (93:56)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (93:57)

So I was like, we figured out the curse in the writer's room. And it was very challenging because it was like, how do we make this all make sense? And also, like, try not to. To dump exposition with the witness at the bar. I think that scene is really fun. Looking back in Zlotka was so weird and cool. But yeah, I mean, it was challenging. And I actually did end up changing the mythology during prep.

Chris Ryan (94:24)

Okay.

Hailey Boston (94:25)

It was originally the curse just spread. Not to Nikki's bloodline.

Chris Ryan (94:32)

It just spread like a virus out.

Hailey Boston (94:35)

Yeah.

Chris Ryan (94:35)

Okay.

Hailey Boston (94:37)

And I think it was Veronica's idea to. To put it on Nikki's bloodline to give it more, you know, Personal consequence for Rachel. So it's. It's about really, like, do I sacrifice myself or do I sacrifice him? And so that came into the picture a little later, but, yeah, trying to get it to all make sense. And then, of course, Rachel becoming the new Witness and figuring out, okay, at one point it was, you know, is this something that she does in the finale where she, like, makes a deal with death in order to live? But it just felt like too much. Much happening in the finale. And I just. I wanted it to be the kind of, like, surprising but inevitable ending where I actually told you how the whole curse works in episode four. So at this point, you should be able to, you know, logic out why she becomes the new Witness.

Chris Ryan (95:42)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (95:44)

And maybe even the moment that Nikki says no, you're already kind of telegraphing it. But all of it, again, was in service of the emotional story. So, you know, it's ultimately a breakup story, and it's Rachel choosing herself and realizing, Nikki doesn't see me. I'm better off on my own. And when you get out of a relationship, it's like a death of the self.

Chris Ryan (96:13)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (96:13)

And a rebirth.

Chris Ryan (96:14)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (96:14)

And so she's free from that and drives away with this, like, little relief that she now can go find the right person.

Chris Ryan (96:24)

Do you feel like there's more Rachel to. To talk to? Like, a more Rachel story to tell now that, like, if you. If you introduce her as a Witness, like, in theory.

Hailey Boston (96:33)

In theory, I think that. I think Rachel would be a much better witness than.

Chris Ryan (96:40)

Yes. I'd much rather hang out with her.

Hailey Boston (96:42)

Zlotko's Witness, because, I mean, he's 200 years old. He's over it at this point. I think she would really try to prevent people from bleeding to death. There was a version of the show where it did have more of a leftovers vibe to it, where there was no explanation and it was just a global phenomenon. And Rachel, this was season two, back when. Before the curse and before I figured all that stuff out. This doesn't work anymore. But Rachel's like, a couple therapists.

Chris Ryan (97:17)

Oh, my God. And for this, like, new dead world,

Hailey Boston (97:20)

this world of, like, if you marry the wrong person, one of you will bleed to death at the altar. And, like, no one knows why. So it was about trying to figure out why and what makes people right for each other. So that was something that. That, like, wasn't defined in season one originally, but then it. It became, you know, clear to me that that would be dissatisfying.

Chris Ryan (97:45)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, like, I Like a show like this that ends on that note, where it's like, if she becomes God, what was that show? The Hitchhiker, where it's just like, he's just driving around. Like, there is a version of this where she's just, like, going from wedding to wedding. But I also thought. Thought it's such a complete, like, statement, you know?

Hailey Boston (98:04)

Right.

Chris Ryan (98:04)

It sounds like a very compressed and, like, quick turnaround for a show. But, like, are you kind of, like, through processing that, like, this is out.

Hailey Boston (98:12)

No.

Chris Ryan (98:12)

At number one on Netflix and that people are freaking out about it.

Hailey Boston (98:15)

Not at all. We finished the show on Monday after it came out.

Ed Cumming (98:19)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (98:20)

I mean, the. I. I finished the final mix of eight two weeks before the show came out, so I haven't even recovered from, like, finishing the show. Yeah. So it's almost. I'm almost like, what do you mean you've already watched it? People obviously watch the whole thing the day it came out.

Chris Ryan (98:40)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (98:40)

Which is crazy to be like, I spent two years making this.

Chris Ryan (98:43)

Yeah.

Hailey Boston (98:43)

And you're done. And. And Dming me on Instagram being like, season two. I'm like, I haven't even slept.

Chris Ryan (98:50)

It's weird. It's fun to though. Like, I love when this happens on, like, the. Especially this happens with, like, new Netflix shows where, like, you can kind of see it kind of like, oh, it's like people are starting to check it out. Starting to check it out. And then obviously it just goes into some sort of like, slipstream of like, oh, my God, now everybody's watching it. That. That's cool. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. And good luck with everything in the future.

Hailey Boston (99:13)

Thank you so much. It's great to be.

Chris Ryan (99:24)

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